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SPECIAL  COMMISSION 

APPOINTED  TO  INVESTIGATE  THE  AFFAIRS 


OF  THE 


RED  CLOUD  INDIAN  AGENCY, 


JULY,    1875; 


TOGETHER  WITH 


THE  TESTIMONY  AND  ACCOMPAMING  DOCUMENTS, 


WASHINGTON: 

GOVERNMENT     PRINTING     OFFICE 
1875. 


ORGANIZATION  OF  THE  COMMISSION. 


LETTERS  OF  APPOINTMENT  AND  INSTRUCTION. 

Secretary  Delano  to  Hon.  Clinton  B.  Fisk. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  May  10,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  am  desirous  of  appointing  a  commission  from  the  members  of 
your  Board  to  investigate  certain  reports  put  in  circulation  by  a  Mr. 
Marsh  relative  to  the  Indian  service  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  I 
write  to  you  to  request  that  you  will  consult  with  your  Board  and  name 
to  me  such  members  of  it  as  may  be  designated  to  make  the  investiga 
tion. 

It  would  be  well  to  have  the  commission  consist  of  three  members. 
Should  you  be  unable  to  designate  them  from  your  Board,  will  you  do 
me  the  favor  to  recommend  some  other  suitable  persons  as  commission 
ers  t  I  desire  to  have  the  commission  named  by  yourself,  or  the  Board 
of  which  you  are  president. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 

Hon.  CLINTON  B.  FISK, 
President  Board  Indian  Commissioners,  Saint  Louis,  Mo. 


Agent  SaviUe  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

WASHINGTON  CITY,  June  5,  1875. 

SIR  :  My  attention  has  been  called  to  statements  of  Professor  Marsh, 
regarding  qualities  of  supplies  furnished  and  management  of  affars  at 
Eed  Cloud  agency,  which  reflect  both  on  my  ability  as  an  agent  and 
honor  as  a  man,  and  also  involve  others,  both  in  and  out  of  the  De 
partment.  I  have  awaited  a  time,  thinking  this  to  be  one  of  the  usual 
effervescences  of  the  moment,  but  it  is  pushed  with  a  persistence  and 
maliguance  that  calls  for  an  official  notice  from  me.  I  have  not  seen 
the  statement  of  Professor  Marsh  as  first  published,  but  know  of  it 
only  from  extracts  that  I  have  in  the  papers'  and  have  derived  from 
personal  conversation  with  him. 

In  the  month  of  November,  1874,  Professor  Marsh  visited  Red  Cloud 
agency  on  a  scientific  mission  ;  while  there,  it  appears  from  his  state 
ment,  he  received  from  Red  Cloud  and  Red  Dog,  two  chiefs  at  the  agency, 
certain  samples  of  unmerchantable  provisions,  which  the  chiefs  claimed 
wrere  procured  at  the  Indian  lodges,  and  were  fair  samples  of  the  pro 
visions  issued  to  the  Indians  at  the  agency,  and  desired  him  to  deliver 
the  same  to  the  President  on  his  return  ;  that  four  months  later  he  de 
livered  the  samples  to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  at  New  York 


IV 


I  have  tbe  honor  to  inform  the  Commissioner  that  when  I  took  charge 
of  the  agency  there  was  some  damaged  flour  on  hand,  and  the  Indians 
may  have  taken  their  sample  from  this ;  that  the  other  supplies  were 
pronounced  of  a  better  quality  than  were  ordinarily  furnished;  that  the 
flour  issued  at  the  time  of  the  Professor's  visit  was  of  good  quality;  and 
it  would  have  been  only  justice  to  the  agent  for  the  Professor  to  have 
compared  his  samples  with  the  goods  in  the  warehouse  for  issue,  and 
either  corroborate  the  statement  of  the  Indians  or  vindicate  the  agent. 
This  he  had  ample  opportunity  to  do  had  he  so  desired,  and  at  the  time 
of  his  visit  two  other  gentlemen  went  through  the  warehouse  with  Red 
Cloud  and  examined  all  the  stores,  which  Red  Cloud  pronounced  better 
than  they  had  ever  had  before.  I  positively  affirm  that,  with  the  excep 
tion  of  the  damaged  flour  at  the  agency  when  I  took  charge,  I  have 
never  received  or  issued  any  unmerchantable  supplies.  The  flour  fur 
nished  by  the  Department,  though  not  as  light  as  ordinary  flour,  is 
sweet,  and  no  cause  of  complaint  among  the  Indians.  The  inferior  cat 
tle  shown  to  Professor  Marsh  and  General  Bradley  were,  two  of  them, 
rejected;  the  balance  were  left  from  the  receipts  of  several  hundred, 
and  were  run  down  from  some  cause,  and  left  to  recruit  on  the  range. 

I  have  the  honor  to  request  the  Commissioner  to  investigate  the 
charges  of  Professor  Marsh  against  me,  and  will  furnish  any  informa 
tion  in  my  power.  I  expect  to  be  able  to  fully  vindicate  my  official  con 
duct  and  honor  as  a  man,  and,  if  successful,  propose  to  retire  from  the 
service. 

Very  resnectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J..J.  SAVILLE, 
United  State*  Indian  Af/ent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairx. 


F.  H.  Smith  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

4  BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  I).  (7.,  June  22,  1875. 

SIR:  I  am  in  receipt  of  a  telegram  from  Hon.  Clinton  B.  Fisk,  chair 
man  of  this  Board,  requesting  a  statement  of  the  charges  made  against 
the  administration  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency  by  Professor  Marsh. 

If  not  already  in  writing,  General  Fisk  desires  me  to  request  you  to 
obtain  specific  written  charges  from  Professor  Marsh,  to  enable  the 
commission  to  be  appointed  to  enter  upon  an  intelligent  investigation 
of  the  same. 

Your  early  attention  is  respectfully  requested. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

F.  H.  SMITH, 

Secretary. 
Hon.  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


F.  H.  Smith  to  Secretary  Delano. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  1).  (7.,  June  24,  1875. 

SIR:  I  am  in  receipt  of  a  telegram  and  letter  from  Hon.  C.  B.  Fisk, 
of  the  23d  instant,  designating,  in  accordance  with  your  request,  as 


members  of  a  commission  to  investigate  certain  charges  of  a  Mr  Marsh 
relative  to  the  character  of  supplies  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency   Hon  A! 
H.  Bollock,  of  Worcester,  Mass. ;  Hon.  Thos.  C.  Fletcher,  Saint  Louis 
Mo. ;  and  Hon.  George  W.  Lane,  of  New  York  City,  and  to  request  their 
appointment  by  you  as  members  of  such  commission. 

I  have  also  the  honor,  by  request  of  General  Fisk,  to  renew  that  ap 
plication,  that  you  cause  formal  written  charges,  covering  the  proposed 
matters  of  investigation,  to  be  made. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

F.  H.  SMITH, 

Secretary, 
Hon.  C.  DELANO, 

Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

Secretary  Delano  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  June  24,  1873. 

SIR  :  On  the  10th  ultimo,  I  addressed  a  letter  to  Hon.  Clinton  B.  Fisk, 
chairman  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  requesting  that  he  would 
name  the  persons  who  should  constitute  a  commission  to  investigate 
the  administration  of  Indian  affairs  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 
A  copy  of  said  letter  is  herewith  inclosed. 

1  am  advised  by  letter,  of  this  date,  from  F.  H.  Smith,  secretary  of 
the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  (copy  inclosed,)  that  the  following- 
named  persons  have  been  designated  by  the  chairman  of  the  Board  to 
make  said  investigation : 

Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  Worcester,  Mass.;  Hon.  Thos.  C.  Fletcher,  Saint 
Louis,  Mo, ;  and  Hon.  Geo.  W.  Lane,  New  York  City;  and  they  are  hereby 
-appointed  special  commissioners  for  the  purpose  named. 

You  are  requested  to  prepare,  and  submit  for  approval,  the  instruc 
tions  necessary  for  their  guidance. 

Their  compensation  will  be  eight  dollars  per  day,  each,  in  addition  to 
their  actual  expenses. 

Very  respectfully,  &c., 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 
The  COMMISSIONER  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock  and  other  Commissioners. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 
OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  I).  (7.,  July  1,  1875. 

GENTLEMEN  :  On  the  nomination  of  the  chairman  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners,  at  the  request  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
you  have  been  appointed  by  him  a  commission  to  investigate  the  affairs 
of  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 

The  occasion  for  such  investigation  has  mainly  originated  in  state 
ments  made  by  Mr.  O.  C.  Marsh,  professor  in  Sheffield  Scientific  School, 
Yale  College,  concerning  matters  which  he  observed  while  at  the  agency 


VI 

during  November  last.  As  yet  these  statements  have  no  definite  form 
known  to  the  Office,  other  than  as  they  have  appeared  in  the  public  press, 
and  as  made  verbally  by  Mr.  Marsh  to  myself. 

In  the  latter  part  of  March  last  Professor  Marsh  brought  to  me  cer 
tain  samples  of  tobacco,  and  flour,  and  sugar,  which  he  said  he  did  in 
accordance  with  a  promise  made  to  Bed  Cloud,  in  consideration  of  a 
promise  by  Bed  Cloud  to  procure  an  entrance  for  him  into  the  Black 
Hills  country  for  scientific  purposes.  He  stated  that,  in  a  private  in 
terview  with  Bed  Cloud,  that  Indian  chief  complained  very  bitterly  of 
his  agent  in  many  respects,  and  earnestly  desired  a  change,  and  that  he 
had  given  him  these  as  samples  of  the  supplies  which  he  was  receiving 
from  Government.  He  also  stated  that  the  beef-cattle  issued  to  the  In 
dians  were  small  in  size,  and  otherwise  of  inferior  character;  and  that 
there  was  much  confusion  in  agency  matters,  especially  in  the  issuiug  of 
a  large  amount  of  goods  in  a  single  day.  Professor  Marsh  expressed 
his  belief  that  there  might  have  been  an  exchange  of  articles  purchased 
for  the  Indians  for  others  of  inferior  quality  while  en  route  between 
Cheyenne  and  the  agency.  He  also  stated  that  his  views  as  to  agency 
affairs  were  confirmed  by  conversations  with  other  persons  around  the 
agency. 

Professor  Marsh  stated  that  he  had  not  taken  any  measures  to  satisfy 
himself  that  the  samples  given  to  him  by  Bed  Cloud  were  fair  samples 
of  the  supplies  which  were,  then  being  issued,  and  could  not  say,  from 
his  own  observation,  that  they  were  fair  samples ;  but  that,  on  one 
occasion,  when  a  sack  of  flour  had  fallen  from  an  Indian  woman's 
arms  and  broken  open,  he  saw  the  color  of  the  flour  as  it  lay  upon  the 
ground,  and  thought  it  not  much  different  from  the  sample  furnished 
by  Bed  Cloud,  but,  not  being  a  judge  of  flour,  he  could  not  make  the 
comparison  with  any  degree  of  accuracy.  The  samples  referred  to 
Professor  Marsh  did  not  leave  with  me,  and  it  is  presumed  that  he  has 
them  still  in  his  possession. 

His  other  statements  in  regard  to  agency  affairs  are  of  a  still  more 
indefinite  character. 

In  an  interview  subsequently  held  with  the  honorable  Secretary  of 
the  Interior,  Professor  Marsh  w^as  invited  by  him  to  reduce  his  state 
ments  of  frauds  or  irregularities  in  the  Indian  service  to  waiting,  in 
such  form  as  would  best  aid  in  their  investigation.  To  this  request 
Professor  Marsh  has  not  yet  responded,  nor  has  he  declined  it.  I  have 
this  day  notified  him  of  your  appointment,  and  again  requested  him  to 
furnish  such  statements  or  suggestions  as  may  aid  in  finding  the  facts 
as  to  the  administration  of  Bed  Cloud  agency. 

If,  however,  Professor  Marsh  should  still  decline  to  furnish  such 
assistance,  it  is  the  desire  of  the  honorable  Secretary  that  you  proceed 
in  the  investigation  and  avail  yourselves  of  all  the  means  that  can  be 
found,  after  arriving  upon  the  ground,  or  before,  to  learn  the  state  of 
affairs  ;  and  that  you  will,  without  fear  or  favor,  investigate  all  matters 
pertaining  to  that  agency  so  thoroughly  as  to  satisfy  yourselves  beyond 
a  doubt  as  to  facts,  upon  which  you  will  make  a  clear  report  relative 
to  its  past  and  present  condition  and  •management,  with  such  recom 
mendations  as  will  enable  the  Department  to  take  proper  action  in  the 
premises. 

You  will  undoubtedly  meet  with  persons  of  strong  partisan  feelings 
enlisted  both  for  and  against  the  administration  of  the  present  agent; 
and  as  you  proceed  you  will  become  fully  aware  of  the  misrepresenta 
tions  which  such  partisanship  naturally  produces,  and  the  extreme  dif- 


VII 

ficulty  of  discovering  the  truth  arnid  the  conflicting  statements  and 
allegations. 

While  guarding  against  giving  undue  weight  to  accusations  which 
originate  in  malice  and  suspicion  only,  you  will  not  hesitate  to  probe 
all  questions  to  the  bottom,  and  bring  to  light  any  official  neglect  or 
fraudulent  or  unfair  transactions  of  any  kind  or  degree  by  whom 
soever  committed.  A  copy  of  Agent  Saville's  letter  requesting  such 
investigation  is  herewith  furnished  for  your  information  [page  iii  •]  also 
a  full  report  of  the  councils  held  with  Eed  Cloud  and  a  delegation  of  the 
chiefs  and  headmen  of  Eed  Cloud  agency  at  the  Department  of  the 
Interior,  May  28  and  June  5.  [Appendix.] 

^  At  Cheyenne  you  will  find  C.  H.  Bostwick,  the  store-keeper  of  the 
Government  warehouse  ;  also  Mr.  Long,  the  inspector  of  the  flour  and 
the  supplies  which  have  been  shipped  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud 
agency  during  the  year.  You  are  also  requested  while  in  the  Indian 
country  to  make  such  observations  pertaining  to  Indian  affairs  gene 
rally  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  as  will  be  of  assistance  to  the  administration 
of  the  Indian  IJureau. 

Of  this  commission  the  Hon.  A.  II.  Bullock,  of  Worcester,  Mass., 
is  the  chairman,  from  whom  you  will  receive  notice  of  the  time  of  pro 
ceeding  to  Cheyenne.  Your  compensation,  while  actually  engaged  in 
this  service,  will  be  at  the  rate  of  $8  per  day,  in  addition  to  your  neces 
sary  and  actual  traveling  expenses.  One  of  the  inclosed  requisitions 
for  transportation  will  be  honored  by  the  ticket-agent  of  tbe  Union 
Pacific  Eaiiroad  at  Omaha,  and  the  other  on  your,  return  at  Cheyenne. 
The  weekly  stage  at  Laramie  en  route  to  Eed  Cloud,  leaves  Cheyenne 
on  Monday,  early  in  the  day. 

Your  attention  is  called  to  the  circular-letter  of  the  honorable 
Second  Comptroller  of  February  26,  1875,  and  to  Department  circular 
of  July  1,  1874,  for  information  as  to  requirements  in  settling  your  ac 
counts  for  expenses. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH. 

To  the  Hon.  A.  H.  BULLOCK,  Worcester,  Mass.;  GEO.  W.  LANE,  New 
York  City ;  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  Saint  Louis,  Mo. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Professor  Marsh. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 
OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  July  1,  1875. 

SIR  :  At  the  request  of  the  honorable  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  have  nominated  as  a  committee  to  in 
vestigate  affairs  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  of  Worces 
ter,  Mass.,  Hon.  Thomas  C.  Fletcher/of  Saint  Louis,  Mo.,  and  Hon.  G. 
W.  Lane,  of  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  in  New  York  City,  and  it  is  un 
derstood  that  these  gentlemen  have  accepted  the  service  to  which  they 
have  been  invited. 

In  preparing  instructions  for  their  guidance  I  have  not  been  able  to 
furnish  them  your  complaints  against  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  administra 
tion  except  in  a  general  way  as  detailed  to  me  by  yourself  at  several 
interviews,  but  I  have  informed  them  of  the  request  of  the  Secretary 
that  you  will  reduce  these  complaints  to  a  written  statement,  to  be  ac- 


Till 

corup.inied  with  such  proofs  and  suggestions  as  to  reliable  sources  of 
evidence  as  will  aid  in  securing  a  thorough  investigation. 

I  have  also  informed  them  of  the  appointment  and  purpose  of  this 
commission  and  of  my  intention  to  renew  the  request,  heretofore  made 
by  the  honorable  Secretary,  that  you  will  now  furnish  the  said  written 
statement  making  the  charges  as  specific  and  furnishing  evidence  as 
much  in  detail  as  possible;  or,  if  you  are  not  prepared  to  do  this,  that 
you  will,  in  any  way  most  agreeable  to  yourself,  make  known  in  a  defi 
nite  form  your  impressions  and  views  respecting  Indian  affairs  as  result 
ing  from  your  personal  observation  while  in  the  Indian  country.  I  make 
this  request  of  you  in  the  belief  that  you  can  have  no  other  desire  in 
this  matter  than  that  the  interests  and  rights  both  of  the  Indians  and 
of  the  Government  may  be  protected,  and  I  desire  to  renew  the  assur 
ance  heretofore  given  you  that  it  is  the  sincere  wish  and  purpose  of  the 
Department  to  prevent  frauds  as  far  as  possible  and  to  omit  no  effort  to 
discover  them  when  perpetrated,  and  in  all  respects  to  bring  the  Indian 
service  to  the  highest  possible  standard  of  humanity  and  strict  integrity. 
Very  respectfully, 

EDWD.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 

Prof.  O.  C.  MARSH, 

Yak  Scientific  School,  Neic  Haven,  Conn. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Ron.  T.  C.  Fletcher. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  6\,  July  14,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Keferriug  to  my  communication  furnishing  instructions 
to  the  commission  appointed  by  the  Hon.  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to 
investigate  affairs  at  lied  Cloud  agency,  I  have  further  to  advise  you 
that,  owing  to  the  declinature  of  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  of  Massachusetts, 
and  George  W.  Lane,  of  New  York,  to  serve  upon  this  commission,  Hon. 
B.  W.  Harris,  of  East  Bridgewater,  Mass.,  and  C.  J.  Faulkner,  of  Mar- 
tinsburgh,  W.  Va.,  have  been  appointed  in  their  stead  upon  this  com 
mission,  and  you  are  named  as  the  chairman  by  the  Hon.  Secretary  of 
the  Interior.  I  understand  from  General  Fisk,  chairman  of  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners,  upon  whose  nomination  this  commission  has 
been  made  up,  that  it  is  arranged  for  the  preliminary  meeting  of  the 
commission  to  be  held  at  the  Fifth  Avenue  Hotel,  New  York  City,  on 
the  evening  of  the  19th  instant,  and  it  is  to  be  hoped  that  the  commis 
sion  will  start  West  immediately  to  enter  upon  the  discharge  of  their 
duties.  The  other  members  of  the  commission  have  been  notified  to 
day  of  their  appointment  and  of  this  preliminary  meeting  to  be  held  on 
the  19th  instant. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
Hon.  T.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Saint  Louis ,  Mo. 


IX 

Secretary  Delano  to  Hon.  T.  C.  Fletcher  and  other  Commissioners. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  (7.,  July  20,  1875. 

GENTLEMEN:  1  have  just  received  a  pamphlet  indorsed  "  A  state 
ment  of  affairs  at  lied  Cloud  agency,  made  to  the  President  of  the 
United  States  by  Prof.  O.  0.  Marsh,"  on  the  outside  of  which  is  an  in 
dorsement  in  writing  as  follows:  "  To  the  Hon.  Columbus  Delano,  with 
kind  regards  of  the  author."  I  inclose  this  communication  for  your  use 
and  consideration  during  the  discharge  of  your  duties,  w'ith  the  follow 
ing  observations. 

My  attention  having  been  directed  to  some  newspaper  articles  reflect 
ing  upon  the  management  of  affairs  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency,  and 
basing  such  reflections  upon  reports  from  Professor  Marsh,  1  addressed 
a  communication  to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  copy  of  which 
is  here  inclosed,  marked  UA, "  [page  iii,]  on  the  10th  day  of  May  last, 
requesting  them  to  select  suitable  persons  to  investigate  such  charges 
and  complaints. 

As  soon  as  I  received  information  from  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  that  they  had  selected  the  persons  to  make  such  examination,  I 
caused  the  persons  so  selected  to  be  appointed,  and  directed  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  make  out  instructions  for  their  guidance, 
and  to  inform  Professor  Marsh  of  their  appointment,  and  request  from 
him  such  information  and  facts  within  his  knowledge  as  it  might  be 
desirable  or  necessary  that  the  commission  should  possess,  together 
with  such  detailed  statements  of  complaints  as  he  felt  authorized  to 
make  against  the  agent  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  such  proofs  as  it 
might  be  in  his  power  to  furnish  in  support  of  such  complaints.  On  the 
1st  day  of  July  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  addressed  Professor 
Marsh  a  letter,  of  which  I  inclose  a  copy,  marked  u  B,"  [page  vii.]  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  has  made  no  communication  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  in  reply  to  this  letter.  He  has  never  made  any  communication 
to  me,  and  I  have  never  received  anything  from  him  to  my  knowledge, 
except  the  statement  which  I  now  inclose,  and  which  I  received  this 
morning. 

You  will  observe  that  there  are  two  letters  in  the  pamphlet,  both  ad 
dressed  to  the  President  of  the  United  States,  and  both  dated  "  Yale 
College,  July  10,  1875."  Both  of  these  appeared  in  the  columns  of  the 
New  York  Tribune,  as  I  am  informed,  before  they  were  received  by  the 
President. 

The  first  time  that  I  met  Professor  Marsh  was  during  the  council  of 
the  Sioux  Indians  in  this  city,  in  May  last,  and  after  much  had  been 
said  in  the  public  prints  in  reference  to  his  complaints  regarding  the  lied 
Cloud  agency,  when,  being  informed  that  he  was  in  the  room  at  one  of 
these  meetings,  and  being  desirous  to  learn  from  him  what  he  knew  on 
the  subject  referred  to,  I  made  myself  known  to  him  and  requested  him 
to  call  upon  me.  Subsequently  he  came  to  my  office,  and  during  that 
interview  I  earnestly  requested  him  to  furnish  me  with  such  information 
as  he  had,  and  with  all  the  proofs  that  he  could  refer  to,  against  the 
agent  at  Red  Cloud ;  which  he  declined  to  do.  General  Eaton,  Commis 
sioner  of  Education,  was  present  during  this  interview,  and  I  shall  en 
deavor  to  obtain  from  him  a  letter  referring  to  it.  I  have  now  stated,  1 
think  correctly,  my  entire  intercourse  with  Professor  Marsh,  and  have 
referred  to  all  that  has  ever  transpired  between  us,  either  orally  or  in 
writing. 

I  need  not  express  to  your  commission  my  desire  for  a  full  and  candid 


examination  and  report  in  regard  to  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  agency;  but 
as  Professor  Marsh  has  seen  fife  to  make  insinuations,  if  not  charges, 
against  me,  and  certainly  against  my  sincerity  in  reference  to  my  desire 
to  have  this  investigation  made,  and  as  he  has  also  seen  fit  to  prefer 
charges  against  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  may  I  not  beg  of 
your  commission,  while  in  the  discharge  of  its  other  duties,  a  careful 
examination  of  these  charges  and  insinuations,  so  far  as  they  affect  the 
Commissioner  or  myself,  and  may  I  express  my  desire  that  your  report 
will,  be  clear  and  explicit  on  these  subjects,  and  such  as  the  evidence  and 
the  facts,  after  full  investigation,  may  require. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 
lions.  Tn.  C.  FLETCHER, 

BENJ.  W.  HARRIS,  and 
CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER, 

Commissioners  to  Examine  Affairs  at  Red  Cloud  Agency. 


Secretary  Delano  t)  I.' on.  T.  C.  Fletcher  an  I  other  Commissioners. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D  (7.,  July  28,  1875. 

GENTLEMEN:  A  comiminication  which  I  had  the  honor  to  address  to 
you  on  the  20th  instant  contains  the  following  paragraph,  wherein  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  is  alluded  to,  viz :  "  Subsequently  he  came  to  my  office, 
and  during  that  interview  I  earnestly  requested  him  to  furnish  me  with 
such  information  as  he  had,  and  with  all  the  proofs  that  he  could  refer 
to,  against  the  agent  at  lied  Cloud;  which  he  declined  to  do.  General 
Eaton,  Commissioner  of  Education,  was  present  during  this  interview, 
and  I  shall  endeavor  to  obtain  from  him  a  letter  referring  to  it." 

I  have  this  day  received  a  letter,  dated  the  22d  instant,  from  General 
Eaton,  in  response  to  a  letter  of  inquiry  addressed  to  him  on  the  19th 
instant  in  relation  to  the  subject,  which  is  herewith  communicated  for 
your  information.  It  is  as  follows,  viz  : 

DEPARTMENT  or  THE  INTERIOR, 

BUREAU  OF  EDUCATION, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  July  22, 1875. 

DEAR  SIR:  Yours  of  the  19th  instai.t  is  received.  I  have  only  seen  the  telegraphic  report 
of  Professor  Marsh's  charges,  and  was  very  much  surprised. at  them,  especially  in  view  of 
what  I  witnessed  during  the  conversation  which  occurred  in  my  presence  in  your  room  as  I 
happened  there  on  business.  You  called  his  attention  to  the  fact  that  he  did  not  give  you 
his  statement  when  he  first  saw  the  Commissioner  and  the  President;  and  that  he  had  been 
in  town  again  so  long  at  the  time  of  this  talk  and  passed  you  by  without  giving  them  to  you,  or 
putting  them  before  you  in  form  for  investigation.  He  replied  that  he  only  intended  to  keep 
his  promise  to  Red  Cloud  ;  that  he  was  not  familiar  with  the  forms  of  Government  business, 
and  that  if  he  had  committed  an  error  in  this  respect  he  begged  your  pardon.  In  reply 
to  your  reminder  that  he  had  not  furnished  them  to  you  during  the  days  he  had  been  in 
town  immediately  preceding  this  interview,  he  stated  that  he  had  been  overpressed  with  sci 
entific  Avork.  You  assured  him  that, so  far  as  you  were  personally  concerned,  you  only  wished 
to  be  treated  as  he  would  wish  to  be  himself  under  similar  circumstances,  and  earnestly  de 
sired  him  to  make  full  and  explicit  statements  of  his  charges  to  you  and  to  cite  all  the  proofs 
of  which  he  was  informed,  that  they  might  be  laid  before  the  commission  to  investigate  the 
lied  Cloud  agency.  He  said  he  had  not  put  them  in  shape,but  would  do  it,  and  should  want 
full  opportunity  to  present  them  before  the  commission  and  to  be  present  as  the  testimony 
was  taken.  He  referred  to  some  of  the  particulars  connected  with  his  observations,  and 
said  that  the  evidence  was  abundant  to  substantiate  all  that  he  had  said.  You  still  urged 
that  he  should  furnish  his  statements  to  you  in  form  for  use  before  the  commission  of  inves- 


XI 


igation.  He  hesitated,  and  you  assured  him  that  every  opportunity  should  be  afforded  him  to 
testify,  or  to  call  witnesses  or  examine  them  ;  that  you  wanted  to  know  the  truth  antUhat 
only  as  you  knew  the  truth  could  you  administer  the  difficult  service  justly  and  honestly  as 
you  desired;  that  you  was  the  one  specially  charged  with  this  responsibility  •  and  that  if 
information  went  everywhere  else,  and  not  to  you,  you  could  not  discharge  your'duty  as  you 
sought  to  do.  To  enforce  your  idea,  I  recollect  that  you  supposed  a  case  of  irregularity™ 
college  and  called  his  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  information  upon  which  correction  should 
be  based  must  be  made  known  to  the  responsible  officer  or  head  ;  so  in  Indian  affairs  infor 
mation  of  irregularities  should  be  brought  to  you. 

You  stated  to  him  emphatically  that  no  one  could  be  more  interested  than  you  were  in 
enforcing  honesty  and  justice  in  the  Indian  service,  and  urged  him  to  assist  you,  and  see  if 
this  was  not  done.     He  in  no  way  intimated,  as  he  now  does  in  these  charges,  that  you 
were  disinclined  to  punish  frauds  when  they  became  known  to  you. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

Hon.  C.  DELANO,  JOHN  EATOS' 

Secretary  of  Interior,  Washington,  D.  C. 

I  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 
Hons.  T.  C.  FLETCHER, 

BENJ.  W.  HARRIS,  and 
CHAS.  J.  FAULKNER, 
Commissioners  to  Examine  Indian  Affairs  at  the  lied  Cloud  Agency. 

Be  pleased  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  this  communication  by  tele 
graph  and  by  mail. 

C.  D. 


Secretary  Delano  to  Senator  Howe  and  Professor  Atherton. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  a,  July  30,  1875. 

GENTLEMEN  :  I  am  directed  by  the  President  to  inform  you  that  in 
consequence  of  various  reports,  indefinite  in  their  character,  of  irregu 
larity  in  the  administration  of  Indian  affairs  at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency, 
published  in  the  public  prints  on  information  furnished  by  Prof.  O. 
C.  Marsh,  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  by  letter,  dated  the  lOtn  May 
last,  addressed  to  the  Hon.  Clinton  B.  Fisk,  chairman  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners,  requested  that  Board  to  designate  suitable  per 
sons  as  commissioners  to  investigate  the  reports  referred  to.  A  copy  of 
said  letter  is  herewith,  marked  aA,"  [page  iii.  ] 

On  the  24th  June,  ultimo,  the  Board,  through  its  secretary,  in  a  letter 
addressed  to  this  Department,  communicated  the  names  of  the  persons 
designated  as  commissioners  to  make  the  investigation,  and  requested 
that  the  Department  cause  formal  written  charges  embracing  proposed 
matters  to  be  investigated.  Copy  of  letter  herewith,  marked  "B," 
[page  iv.] 

On  the  same  day,  24th  June,  a  copy  of  the  letter  of  the  Board  of  that 
date  was  transmitted  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,,  with  di 
rections  to  prepare  the  necessary  instructions  for  the  guidance  of  the 
commissioners.  Copy  herewith,  marked  UC,"  [page  v.] 

On  the  1st  instant,  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  submitted 
letters  of  instructions  for  the  guidance  of  the  commission,  which  were, 
on  the  same  day,  approved  and  returned  to  that  officer.  Copy  of  letter 
and  instructions  herewith,  marked  "  D,"  [page  v.] 

As  the  Department  had  not  received  any  definite  information  as  to 
the  nature  of  the  complaints  referred  to,  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  was  instructed  to  request  Professor  Marsh  to  state,  in  writing, 


XII 

any  charges  that  the  evidence  in  his   possession   might  justify,  with  a 
view  to  their  thorough  investigation. 

A  copy  of  the  letter  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  Profes 
sor  Marsh,  asking  for  a  written  statement,  making  specific  charges  and 
furnishing  evidence  in  detail,  is  herewith  enclosed,  dated  July  1,  and 
marked  "  E,??  [page  vii.] 

Never  having  seen  Professor  Marsh,  and  learning  that  he  was  in  the 
city,  in  May  last,  and  was  frequently  present  at  councils  held  with  the 
Sioux  Indians,  I  took  occasion,  upon  his  being  pointed  out  to  me,  to  in 
troduce  myself  to  him  and  to  request  that  he  would  call  upon  me  at  my 
office.  A  few  days  later  he  called  on  me  and  I  earnestly  requested  that 
he  would  submit  his  charges  to  me  in  writing.  He  positively  declined 
to  comply  with  my  request.  GeneralJohn  Eaton,  Commissioner  of  Educa 
tion,  was  present  at  this  interview,  and  his  recollections  of  the  conver 
sation  with  Professor  Marsh  are  contained  in  a  letter,  copy  herewith, 
dated  the  22d  July,  marked  "  F,"  [page  x.] 

After  the  instructions,  prepared  for  the  commissioners  to  investigate 
affairs  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  had  been  forwarded  to  them,  I  received 
from  the  President  a  letter  covering  a  pamphlet  embodying  two  letters 
from  Professor  Marsh  to  him,  which  contain  the  only  charges  known  to 
have  been  made  against  the  agency  by  that  gentleman.  The  contents 
of  the  pamphlet  appeared  first  in  the  columns  of  the  New  York  Tribune; 
then  were  presented  to  the  President  by  Professor  Marsh.  All  this  oc 
curred  after  the  appointment  of  the  commissioners  and  the  giving  of 
their  instructions.  A  copy  of  the  pamphlet  is  herewith,  marked  u  G," 
[page  1.] 

As  in  the  pamphlet  insinuations  are  made  against  the  sincerity  of  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  in  regard  to  the  investigation,  and  direct 
charges  against  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  the  President  de 
termined  to  increase,  by  his  own  appointment,  the  number  of  members 
of  the  commission,  and  you  have  been  selected  accordingly.  His  reason 
for  doing  this  is,  that  it  may  not  be  justly  said  that  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  appointed  a  commission  to  investigate  himself  and  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  It  must,  therefore,  be  distinctly  understood 
that  your  appointment  is  not  on  account  of  any  want  of  confidence  in 
your  colleagues  of  the  commission. 

With  this  letter  of  explanation,  which  you  are  at  liberty  to  present  to 
your  colleagues,  you  are  requested  to  join  and  act  writh  them  under  the 
instructions  they  have  received,  a  copy  of  which  is  herewith  enclosed,  as 
before  stated. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 

Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE, 

Professor  G.  W.  ATHERTON, 

Commissioners. 


Secretary  Delano  to  Hon.  T.  C.  Fletcher. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

August  2,  1875. 

SIR:  Following  closely  after  the  publication  of  the  Marsh  charges  in 
the  New  York  papers,  appeared  the  report  of  Samuel  Walker,  in  regard 


XIII 

to  affairs  at  the  Keel  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  dated  December 
6,  1873,  and  in  the  same  connection  it  is  charged  that  inasmuch  as  the 
statements  in  the  Walker  report  never  received  the  attention  of  the  Inte 
rior  Department,  therefore  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  was  not  desirous 
of  correcting  the  evils  complained  of  by  Mr.  Walker. 

Inasmuch  as  the  Walker  report  contained  very  grave  charges  against 
the  agents  at  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  the  allegation 
that  those  charges  were  disregarded  or  ignored  by  this  Department  is  a 
very  serious  oue,'and  the  following  statement  of  the  action  of  the  Depart 
ment,  in  regard  to  said  report,  is  respectfully  submitted  for  your  infor 
mation. 

On  the  4rh  of  February,  1874,  I  learned,  for  the  first  time,  through  an 
outside  or  unofficial  source,  that  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  a  clerk  in  the  office 
of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  had  made  a  report  to  the  board 
of  an  investigation  made  by  him  into  affairs  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spot 
ted  Tail  agencies.  On  receipt  of  this  information  I  at  once  wrote  the 
chairman  of  the  board,  (Mr.  Brunot,)  informing  him  of  the  fact  that  it 
had  been  communicated  to  me  through  an  unofficial  channel  that  Samuel 
Walker  had  made  such  a  report,  and  requesting  him  to  inform  me  whether 
my  information  was  correct,  and  by  what  authority  Walker  had  been 
sent  out,  and  also  requesting  to  be  furnished  with  a  copy  of  the  report, 
if  one  had  been  made.  A  copy  of  my  letter  is  transmitted  herewith, 
marked  A,  [page  799.] 

February  6,  1874,  a  reply  was  received  from  Mr.  Brunot,  apologizing 
for  the  omission  to  send  the  report,  and  stating  that  it  was  his  neglect, 
but  that  he  had  now  directed  that  a  copy  of  the  Walker  report  be  sent 
to  the  Department.  Copy  of  Mr.  Bruuot's  letter  is  sent  herewith, 
marked  B,  [page  800.] 

Februry  11,  1874,  a  copy  of  Walker's  report  was  received  at  the 
Department  from  the  secretary  of  the  board,  Mr.  Cree.  A  copy  of  Mr. 
Cree's  letter  is  herewith,  marked  C,  [p.  800,]  and  a  copy  of  Walker's 
report  is  also  submitted,  marked  D,  [page  801.] 

It  will  be  observed  that  Mr.  Walker  was  appointed  to  make  the  in 
vestigation  at  the  Ked  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  October  28, 
1873  ;  that  his  report  to  the  board  is  dated  December  6,  1873,  and  that 
the  Department  was  without  any  information  in  regard  to  the  appoint 
ment,  the  investigation,  and  the  report  until  the  4th  of  February,  1874, 
two  months  after  the  report  was  made,  and  more  than  three  months 
after  Walker  was  appointed  to  make  the  investigation,  and  a  copy  of 
the  report  wTas  not  furnished  until  a  week  latter;  and  furthermore,  that 
the  information,  even  at  that  late  day,  was  not  voluntarily  furnished  by 
the  board,  but  elicited  only  after  a  request  had  been  made  for  it. 

Owing  to  the  extraordinary  nature  of  the  proceedings  detailed  above 
and  the  character  of  the  statements  contained  in  the  report,  immediate 
steps  were  taken  to  cause  a  thorough  and  complete  investigation  of  the 
matters  complained  of  in  the  Walker  report.  For  this  purpose,  on  the 
23d  of  February,  1874,  I  appointed  a  commission,  consisting  of  Bishop 
Hare,  Rev.  S.  D.  Hiuman,  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church,  F.  II. 
Smith,  and  Inspector  Bevier,  with  instructions  to  make  a  thorough  in 
vestigation  of  affairs  at  the  Ked  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and 
especially  of  those  matters  complained  of  in  Walker's  report.  The  selec 
tion  of  Messrs.  Hare  and  Hinmau  was  made  because  of  the  fact  that  tue 
agents  in  charge  of  the  two  agencies  were  appointed  on  the  recommen 
dation  of  the  missionary  authorities  of  that  church  and  they  were  in  a 
measure  responsible  for  their  good  conduct.  Copy  of  the  instructions  1 
the  commissioners  is  herewith,  marked  E. 


XIV 


Saul  commission  made  a  full  report,  April  22,  1874,  which  was  pub 
lished  m  the  official  reports  for  that  year,  arid  a  copy  is  submitted  here 
with,  marked  F,  [page  807.] 

That  investigation  was  evidently  made  in  a  thorough  and  impartial 
manner.  The  report  is  full  and  frank  in  all  its  conclusions,  and  was 
regarded  by  the  Department  as  conclusive  of  the  matters  complained  of. 
That  any  of  the  charges  in  the  Walker  report  were  ignored  or  sought 
to  be  covered  up  by  the  Indian  Office  is  clearly  shown  to  be  an  error  bv 
the  foregoing  statement. 

Your  attention  is  respectfully  invited  to  the  report  of  the  commission 

Bishop  Hare,  especially  to  the  reference  therein  made  to  Mr.  Walker's 
method  of  iuvesi  *jr^r,  to  the  character  of  his  principal  witness,  and 
the  disproof  of  his  .^s  serious  charges. 

I  will  thank  you  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  this  communication  bv 
telegraph. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO,  Secretary. 
Hon.  T.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman  Red  Cloud  .Commission,  Red  Cloud  Agency. 


THE    REPORT. 


To  the  Hon.  CLINTON  B.  FISK, 

President  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  : 

The  commission  appointed  to  investigate  the^Ht'^jes  made  by  Pro 
fessor  O.  0.  Marsh,  in  his  letter  to  the  President  off1  the  United  States 
of  July  the  10th,  1875,  touching  the  administration  of  affairs  at  the  Red 
Cloud  agency,  and  also  to  report  such  observations  pertaining  to  Indian 
affairs  as  might  suggest  themselves  in  the  progress  of  that  investigation, 
submit  the  following  report : 

Professor  O.  C.  Marsh,  of  Yale  College,  a  gentleman  of  high  reputa 
tion  in  the  scientific  world,  while  upon  a  geological  expedition  to  explore 
the  Bad  Lands  south  of  the  Black  Hills,  in  November,  1874,  was  detained  by 
Indian  opposition  several  days  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  While  he  was 
there  an  issue  of  cattle  and  annuity-goods  came  incidentally  under  his 
notice,  and  some  samples  of  very  inferior  flour,  coffee,  sugar,  and  tobacco 
were  placed  in  his  hands  by  the  chief  of  the  Ogallalla  band  of  Sioux 
Indians,  with  the  request  that  he  would  lay  these  samples  before  the 
President  of  the  United  States,  from  which  he  could  see  how  imperfectly 
the  benign  purposes  of  the  Government  were  carried  out  in  the  quality 
of  the  goods  and  provisions  issued  to  that  agency.  That  gentleman,  at 
all  times  alive  to  whatever  might  affect  the  interests  and  good  faith  of 
the  Government,  having  some  leisure  at  command  to  look  into  the  ad 
ministration  of  affairs  at  that  point,  and,  besides,  having  a  strong  motive 
to  conciliate  the  good-will  of  the  Indian  chiefs  in  furtherance  of  his 
scientific  expedition  by  exhibiting  a  just  sympathy  in  their  complaints, 
promised  to  make  a  due  presentation  in  person  of  their  grievances  to 
the  President,  This  he  did  in  a  personal  interview,  and  more  fully  in 
his  letter  of  the  10th  of  July.  In  this  communication  to  the  President 
he  gives  expression  to  some  unfavorable  impressions  which  he  had  de 
rived  from  his  interview  with  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  in  connection  with  the  alleged  abuses  at  the 
Red  Cloud  agency. 

A  letter  of  this  character  from  so  eminent  and  public-spirited  a  citizen 
as  Professor  Marsh — a  gentleman  in  no  wise  connected  with  the  active 
politics  of  the  day — very  naturally  awakened  the  interest  and  attracted 
the  attention  of  the  country.  His  letter  was  widely  circulated  and  its 
statements  largely  discussed  in  our  leading  public  journals;  and  although 
the  complaints  against  that  particular  agency  had  been  the  subject  of 
formal  inquiry  by  a  most  respectable  commission  within  the  preceding 
year,  and  many  of  the  points  here  involved  had  been  the  subject  of  con 
gressional  inquiry  at  its  last  session,  yet  a  decent  respect  for  public  opin 
ion  demanded  that  a  further  examination  should  be  made  into  the  specific 
charges  of  abuse  so  vigorously  presented  by  Professor  Marsh.  As  these 
charges  might  in  the  investigation  involve  the  integrity  or  official 
diligence  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  it  would  have  been  manifestly  improper  for  them,  or  either  of 
them,  to  have  nominated  or  selected  the  persons  who  were  to  compose 
that  commission  of  investigation.  The  Secretary  of  the  Interior  accord- 


XVI 

ingly,  in  a  letter  of  the  10th  of  May,  1875,  addressed  to  the  Board  of  In 
dian  Commissioners,  delegated  to  that  body  the  exclusive  selection  of 
three  persons  to  form  the  commission.  This  duty  was  accepted  by  that 
Board,  and  Thomas  C.  Fletcher,  of  Missouri,  Benjamin  W.  Harris,  of 
Massachusetts,  and  Charles  J.  Faulkner,  of  West  Virginia,  were  nom 
inated  and  selected  to  perform  that  duty.  At  a  subsequent  period,  and 
when  this  board  was  in  the  performance  of  its  duties,  the  President 
added  the  names  of  Timothy  O.  Howe,  of  Wisconsin,  and  George  W. 
Atherton,  of  New  Jersey,  to  this  commission. 

The  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  to  whose  nomination  a  majority 
of  this,  commission  trace  their  connection  with  the  present  inquiry,  was 
a  body  created  by  an  act  of  Congress,  passed  in  1809.  It  cannot  exceed 
ten  in  number.  Its  members  serve  without  pay.  In  its  selection  the 
wishes  of  the  various  religious  denominations  of  the  country  have  been 
largely  deferred  to.  It  has  been  ordinarily  composed  of  leading  merchants 
and  manufacturers  of  the  eastern  and  western  cities,  with  a  fair  represent 
ation  of  the  agricultural  interest.  It  has  usually  embraced  a  body  of  men 
who,  from  their  eminent  success  in  trade,  are  presumed  to  be  above  the 
temptations  of  bribery,  and  from  their  well-established  reputations  for 
patriotism,  public  spirit,  and  philanthropy  are  supposed  to  have  an  in 
terest  in  the  purity  of  the  Government,  and  in  the  welfare  and  civiliza 
tion  of  the  Indian  race  upon  this  continent. 

The  existence  of  this  very  unusual  and  anomalous  feature  in  our  ad 
ministrative  system  is  to  be  traced  to  a  belief  that  then  pervaded  the 
public  mind  that  the  administration  of  our  Indian  affairs  had  become  so 
corrupt  in  all  its  ramifications  that  it  could  no  longer  be  trusted  without 
some  effectual  check  upon  its  acts.  It  was  believed  that  the  disease 
had  become  so  deep-seated,  the  poison  of  corruption  so  extensively 
diffused  through  its  system,  the  "  Indian  Ring"so  powerful  in  its  combina 
tions,  that  no  mere  change  in  the  personnel  of  that  Department  could 
accomplish  the  needful  reform.  This  Board  was  therefore  created  as  a 
check  upon  the  administration  of  the  Indian  Department.  A.ll  contracts 
for  supplies  have  to  be  submitted  for  its  approval ;  all  accounts  before 
payment  have  to  be  submitted  to  its  scrutiny  and  examination. 

No  one  who  will  look  back  to  our  history  for  the  last  ten  years  can  en 
tertain  a  moment's  doubt  that  the  existence  of  this  board  of  eminent 
private  citizens  has  exercised  a  wholesome  and  purifying  influence  upon 
that  branch  of  the  Interior  Department.  The  interposition  of  this  body 
may  be  slow,  cumbrous,  and  at  times  somewhat  inconvenient.  It  is 
brought  occasionally  into  embarrassing  collision  with  the  Interior  De 
partment;  but  none  can  deny  that  it  is  well  calculated  to  discourage 
corruption  and  to  frustrate  fraud.  It  could  not  well  be  otherwise.  Any 
contractor,  or  agent,  or  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  or  Secretary  of 
the  Interior,  would  at  least  pause  in  the  perpetration  of  any  fraudulent 
or  improper  act,  when  he  knew  that  his  conduct  must  undergo  the  scrutiny 
and  revision  of  a  body  of  citizens  who,  forming  no  part  of  the  adminis 
tration  proper,  yet  are  taken  from  the  great  mass  of  their  fellow-citizens, 
to  keep  a  vigilant  eye  upon  the  acts  of  the  administration  in  that  par 
ticular  branch  of  the  public  service. 

The  members  of  this  commission  accepted  the  duties  imposed  upon 
them,  and  adopted  the  letter  of  Professor  Marsh  to  the  President  as  the 
starting  point  of  their  inquiries,  he  was  requested  to  appear  before 
them  to  furnish  any  additional  information  of  which  he  might  be  in 
possession,  to  give  a  list  of  all  documents  and  papers  copies  of  which 
he  wished  from  the  Department  at  Washington,  and  also  the  names  ot 
all  persons  upon  whose  testimony  he  relied  to  establish  the  statements 


XVII 

contained  in  his  letter.  We  desire  to  state  that  every  witness  whose 
name  has  been  furnished  by  the  Professor  has  been  examined  in  all  cases 
where  that  witness  was  at  all  within  our  reach.  We  also  examined 
every  other  person  whose  relation  or  proximity  to  the  affairs  of  the 
agency  gave  us  reason  to  suppose  that  he  possessed  any  information  on 
the  subject.  Every  document  asked  for  from  the  Interior  Department 
was  ordered  and  promptly  furnished.  The  body  of  testimony  accom 
panying  this  report,  and  extended  to  upward  of  eight  hundred  pages  of 
printed  matter,  will  show  that  we  sought  every  source  of  information 
that  was  at  all  accessible  to  us. 

Kecurring,  then,  to  the  letter  of  Professor  Marsh  of  the  10th  of  July, 
and  taking  up  his  charges  in  the  order  in  which  they  are  presented  we 
find  the  first  headed  as  follows  : 

THE  INDIAN  AGENT  AT  RED  CLOUD  AGEXCY. 

It  is  charged  that  the  "  agent,  Saville,  is  incompetent,  weak,  and  va 
cillating,  unfit  for  the  responsible  position  he  occupies,"  and  "  especially 
that  he  is  in  league  with  the  contractor  to  defraud  the  Indians  of  the 
food  and  clothing  sent  them  by  the  Government." 

The  results  of  our  investigation  fully  sustain  the  allegation  of 
Professor  Marsh  that  the  agent  is  incompetent  and  unfit  for  the  posi 
tion  which  he  occupies ;  that  he  should  be  removed  without  delay,  and 
a  competent  successor  appointed.  His  striking  deficiencies  are  a  nervous 
and  irritable  temperament,  inordinate  loquacity,  undignified  bearing 
and  manners,  a  want  of  coolness  and  colleetedness  of  mind,  and  of  firm 
ness  and  decision  of  character.  With  these  defects  he  combines  some 
very  excellent  qualities  of  head  and  heart.  There  is  no  proof,  however, 
to  sustain  the  averment  that  he  was  in  league  with  the  contractors  to 
defraud  the  Indians  of  the  food  and  clothing  sent  them  by  the  Govern 
ment.  Not  a  fact  has  been  elicited  to  sustain  this  allegation.  We  see 
nothing  in  the  evidence  to  satisfy  us  that  Dr.  Saville  is  either  a  grasping, 
covetous,  or  corrupt  man.  His  tastes  are  rather  literary  and  scientific, 
and  the  love  of  money  seems  to  form  no  part  of  his  character.  There 
are  two  acts  referred  to  in  the  evidence — the  Appleton  contract,  (pages 
794,  795  of  evidence.)  and  his  certificate  to  J.  D.  McCann  of  the  20th  of 
January,  1874,  (page  G28,) — which  exhibit  an  unpardonable  disregard  of 
the  moneyed  interests  of  the  Government,  and  which  of  themselves 
ought  to  have  caused  his  immediate  removal  from  office;  but,  as  it  does 
not  appear  that  he  was  to  derive  any  personal  benefit  from  these  trans 
actions,  his  errors  may  be  explained  by  that  want  of  firmness,  which 
caused  him  to  yield  to  the  importunities  of  the  selfish  and  unprincipled. 
All  the  testimony  sufficiently  repels  the  idea  that  he  hadany  participation 
in  the  profits  of  any  of  the  contractors  for  the  supply  of  provisions,  or  in 
the  business  of  the  traders  around  the  agency ;  and  it  equally  shows 
that  he  has  added  nothing  to  his  means  or  resources  since  he  has  been  in 
office,  and  that  his  financial  condition  has  been  rather  impaired  than  im 
proved.  He  may  certainly  be  referred  to  as  an  example  of  at  least 
one  Indian  agent  who  goes  out  of  office  a  poorer  man  than  when  he 
entered  it. 

The  general  condition  of  affairs  about  the  lied  Cloud  agency  produced 
upon  us  a  very  unfavorable  impression.  The  low  and  inferior  character 
of  the  employes,  one  of  whom  was  found  intoxicated  upon  our  arrival 
there,  the  want  of  order  and  neatness  in  the  arrangement  of  the  Gov 
ernment  stores,  and  the  habitual  lounging  of  Indian  women  and  children 
around  the  stockade,  all  indicating  a  looseness  of  management  and  a 
lack  of  administrative  capacity  which  were  in  keeping  with  the  charac- 
2  I  F 


XVIII 

teristics  of  the  agent  to  which  we  have  already  referred.  The  clerk  is 
utterly  incompetent  for  the  position  he  occupies.  We  were  the  more 
impressed  with  this  condition  of  things  after  our  visit  to  the  Spotted 
Tail  agency,  which,  in  all  the  particulars  we  have  indicated,  furnished 
a  striking  contrast  to  that  at  lied  Cloud.  It  should  in  justice  be  said, 
however,  that  the  difficulties  of  Agent  Saville's  position  have  been  very 
great,  growing  out  of  the  establishment  and  organization  of  a  new 
agency  in  the  midst  of  turbulent  and  hostile  surroundings,  and  there  is 
no  doubt  that  the  condition  of  affairs  is  far  better  than  it  was  two  years 
ago. 

NUMBER  OF  INDIANS  AT  THE  AGENCY  OVERESTIMATED. 

Professor  Marsh  expresses  the  opinion  that  the  number  of  Indians  sup 
plied  with  provisions  at  lied  Cloud  agency  has  been  overestimated.  In 
making  this  averment  the  Professor  states  that  this  overestimate  has 
been  made  "for  purposes  which  can  only  contemplate  fraud  ;"  but  he  is 
vague  in  this  accusation,  and  does  not  suggest  the  mode  in  which  such 
fraud  might  be  perpetrated,  nor  does  he  point  to  any  incident  or  occa 
sion  upon  which  it  has  been  practiced.  It  is  difficult  to  see  any  point 
or  force  in  this  suggestion,  unless  it  were  accompanied  w7ith  the  charge 
that  this  overestimate  has  been  made  for  the  purpose  of  procuring 
larger  supplies  from  the  Government  than  are  necessary,  and  of  dishon 
estly  appropriating  all  such  supplies  to  the  uses  of  the  agent  himself. 
But  no  such  specific  charge  is  made  by  Professor  Marsh  ;  no  such  sur 
plus  has  ever  been  known  to  exist;  and  the  constant  clamor  of  the  In 
dian  is  that  he  is  stinted  in  his  supply  of  food.  We  apprehend  that  if 
the  wild  and  ferocious  tribes  that  surround  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  could 
be  made  for  one  moment  really  to  believe  that  the  agent  had  dishonestly 
withheld  from  them  any  provisions  or  supplies  to  which  they  were  justly 
entitled  his  life  would  not  be  safe  an  instant. 

In  the  absence,  then,  of  any  specific  charge  of  fraud  based  upon  this 
supposed  overestimate  of  numbers,  it  may  be  regarded  as  simply  a  ques 
tion  of  accuracy  of  enumeration  as  between  the  Professor  and  the  agent, 
Saville.  It  is  well  known  that  there  has  always  been  great  difficulty  in 
reaching  any  accurate  census  of  our  wild  Indian  population.  Their 
nomadic  habits,  their  frequent  changes  of  encampment,  their  supersti 
tions  or  pretended  superstitions,  aversion  to  being  counted,  have  con 
stantly  thrown  difficulties  in  the  way  of  a  reliable  enumeration.  Under 
our  system  of  Government  supplies  we  can  easily  perceive  additional 
motives  which  may  have  actuated  them  in  opposition  to  a  census  of 
their  numbers.  In  the  absence  of  any  such  enumeration,  they  were  able 
to  practice  great  imposition  and  fraud  upon  the  agent  by  exaggerating 
their  number,  and  receiving  supplies  far  beyond  those  to  which  they 
were  entitled.  It  thus  became  a  very  severe  struggle  between  the  agent 
endeavoring  to  enforce  an  enumeration  on  one  hand  and  the  Indians  re- 
sistingthat  enumeration  on  the  other.  All  persuasive  efforts  upon  the  part 
of  the  agent  to  induce  them  to  submit  to  a  count  proved  fruitless.  When 
he.  upon  one  occasion,  sought  to  make  it  without  their  consent,  he  was 
forcibly  arrested  by  them  and  his  life  seriously  imperiled.  He  had  no 
course  left  open  to  him  but  to  starve  them  into  submission,  and  he  ac 
cordingly  announced  to  them  in  very  decisive  terms  that  he  would  make 
no  further  issue  of  goods  or  provisions  until  they  consented  to  be 
counted.  Perceiving  that  he  was  acting  up  to  the  declaration  so  an 
nounced  and  withholding  their  supplies,  they  yielded  a  reluctant  con 
sent  to  his  terms.  But  even  then  the  experiment  was  not  without  dan 
ger,  and  the  agent  wras  forced  to  employ  such  men  as  Janis,  lieshaw, 


XIX 


Rowland,  some  half-breeds,  and  others  who  had  married  Indian  women 
called  "squaw-men,"  to  go  into  their  tepees  for  that  purpose.  These' 
were,  it  is  true,  not  the  most  reliable  men  for  the  performance  of  that 
duty,  but  they  were  the  only  ones  who  would  undertake  the  task  or 
could  have  performed  it  with  safety.  They  had  sufficient  education  and 
clerical  skill  to  enable  them  to  take  the  census.  Whether  they  per 
formed  their  duty  honestly  and  faithfully  to  the  Government  may  be  a 
question  m  the  minds  of  some.  By  their  report,  the  enumeration  stood 
as  follows : 

Arapahoes , 1  §21 

Cheyeunes "  '  394 

Sioux * "  9  339 

To  this  were  afterward  added  Kiocsies,  a  band  of  the  Sioux, 

hunting  at  the  time  of  registration 700 

Arapahoes  and  Oheyennes  subquently  registered 629 


Making  in  all 13  403 

Whether  this  enumeration  be  strictly  accurate,  or  has  been  exagger 
ated  by  the  dishonesty  of  the  "  squaw-men"  who  took  it,  it  is  difficult 
to  determine ;  but  it  is  the  only  approximation  to  an  authentic  census 
which  has  been  taken,  and  has  formed  the  basis  upon  which  the  agent 
has  made  his  returns  to  the  Indian  Bureau,  and  upon  which  he  has 
made  his  distribution  of  supplies  to  the  various  heads  of  bands  around 
the  agency.  It  is  true  that  General  Bradley  and  other  highly  intelli 
gent  and  well-informed  men  concur  with  Professor  Marsh  in  estimating 
their  numbers  at  a  much  lower  figure,  and  strong  facts  are  adduced  by 
them  in  support  of  their  opinions  ;  but  they  are  at  best  but  mere  esti 
mates,  without  any  of  the  aids  of  an  actual  enumeration.  The  point  is 
without  practical  importance,  except  so  far  as  it  may  determine  the  ap 
propriations  of  Congress  for  supplies  at  that  agency,  and  we  believe  that 
Congress  has  not  yet  erred  in  granting  supplies  in  excess  of  the  needs 
of  the  Indians  at  that  point. 

It  is  not  to  be  questioned  that  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  is  liable  to  the 
irruption  of  what  are  called  "  Northern  Indians,"  \vho,  forming  part  of 
the  Sioux  Nation,  when  pinched  by  hunger  and  the  deficiency  of  game, 
resort  to  the  agency  and  demand  their  supplies  of  food  and  other 
stores.  This  devolves  upon  the  agent  a  delicate,  responsible,  and  some 
times  hazardous  duty.  Whatever  is  given  to  these  savage  visitors  is 
so  much  taken  from  those  who  have  been  registered  and  live  around 
the  agencies,  and  yet  their  demands  cannot  always  be  refused  with 
safety.  It  is  very  clearly  in  evidence  that  there  was  a  large  body  of 
these  Northern  Indians  on  a  visit  to  this  agency  in  October,  1874,  and  if 
Professor  Marsh  did  not  meet  with  them  in  the  November  following, 
when  he. crossed  the  White  River,  his  failure  to  see  them  cannot  over 
rule  the  concurring  evidence  which  shows  that  they  had  been  there. 

This  Commission  is  by  no  means  satisfied  that  the  enumeration  made 
by  the  half-breeds  and  u  squaw-men,"  by  the  direction  of  Dr  Saville, 
and  in  the  circumstances  under  which  it  was  made,  can  be  relied  upon 
for  strict  accuracy;  and  as  the  hostility  of  the  Indians  to  a  count  has 
to  a  great  extent  subsided,  they  would  recommend  that  one  of  the  first 
duties  that  the  new  agent  shall  undertake  shall  be  to  procure  a  more  re 
liable  census  of  the  number  of  those  encamped  around  the  agency,  and, 
when  any  of  the  "  Northern  Indians  "  who  are  not  registered  shall  visit 
there  and  receive  supplies,  that  he  make  a  separate  and  accurate  account 
of  their  number  and  of  the  supplies  issued  to  them. 


XX 

ISSUE   OF   ANNUITY-GOODS. 

We  found  the  system  of  keeping  accounts  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency 
exceedingly  loose  and  defective,  and  for  much  of  this  the  Indian  Office 
is  justly  censurable.  It  is  only  within  the  last  few  weeks  that  the  Gov 
ernment  has  supplied  the  books  to  the  agent  and  required  the  adoption 
of  a  system  calculated  to  exhibit  clearly  the  state  of  his  accounts.  Prior 
to  that  time  the  agent  furnished  hisown  books,  and  made  all  his  accounts 
in  a  loose  and  irregular  manner;  and  when  his  agency  expired,  carried 
off  all  the  books  and  papers  as  his  private  property.  Again,  by  the 
provision  of  the  Treaty  of  18G8,  article  10,  it  was  expressly  stipulated 
that  an  officer  of  the  Army  shall  annually  be  detailed  by  the  President 
to  be  present,  and  attest  the  delivery  of  the  annuity-goods  to  the 
Indians,  and  to  inspect  and  report  on  the  quantity  and  quality  of  the 
goods,  and  the  manner  of  their  delivery.  This  wise  and  important  pro 
vision  of  law — for  such  under  the  Constitution  it  is — has  been  utterly 
disregarded ;  and  when  interrogated  upon  the  subject,  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs  avowed  his  entire  ignorance  that  any  such  provision 
was  contained  in  the  treaty,  tt  is  easy  to  perceive  that  if  this  require 
ment  of  law  had  been  faithfully  complied  with,  many  of  the  irregularities 
which  have  been  the  subject  of  complaint  could  not  have  had  any  exist 
ence.  Again,  among  the  admirable  recommendations  addressed  to  the 
Interior  Department  by  the  commission  of  which  Bishop  Hare  was  chair 
man,  in  April,  1874,  was  the  following;  "That  all  beef  and  other  pro 
visions  be  issued  by  orders  on  the  issue-clerk,  which  orders  should  pass 
through  the  office  in  order  to  their  appearance  on  the  books;  that  these 
orders  be  filed  away  for  safe-keeping,  and  the  books  and  papers  of  the 
agency  be  the  property  of  the  Government  and  not  of  the  agent."  With 
the  exception  of  a  recent  order  of  the  Department,  asserting  the  right 
of  the  Government  to  the  books  kept  by  the  agent,  and  forbidding  him 
to  carry  them  off  as  private  property,  no  attempt  has  been  made  to  pre 
scribe  and  enforce  this  valuable  recommendation  ;  so  that  the  books 
kept  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency,  even  up  to  the  period  of  our  visit  there, 
throw  but  a  very  imperfect  light  upon  its  transactions. 

While  it  is  true  that  there  was  this  general  looseness  in  the  system  of 
distribution,  they  cannot  concur  in  the  justice  of  the  particular  state 
ments  of  fact  that  Professor  Marsh  makes  as  evidence  of  irregularity  and 
fraud.  He  states  that  when  the  issue  of  blankets  took  place  on  the  12th 
November,  1874,  not  more  than  twenty,  certainly  not  more  than  twenty- 
five,  bales  of  blankets  were  distributed  to  the  Indians.  This  statement 
he  bases  in  part  upon  his  own  passing  observation,  made  without  a  count, 
but  also  upon  a  certificate  of  a  half-breed  by  the  name  of  Louis  Reshaw. 
Then,  referring  to  the  official  returns  of  the  agent,  which  shows  a  distri 
bution  of  thirty-seven  bales,  he  jumps  to  the  conclusion  that  a  gross 
fraud  has  been  practiced  both  upon  the  Government  and  the  Indians. 
Now,  if  there  is  one  fact  which  beyond  any  other  the  evidence  ren 
ders  perfectly  clear  and  indisputable  in  this  case,  it  is  that  those  thirty- 
seven  balcsof  blankets  were  honestly  and  fairly  distributed  to  the  Indians. 
This  is  shown  by  the  voluntary  declaration  made  by  Red  Cloud  in  his  first 
speech  to  the  commission,  when  no  inquiry  was  addressed  to  him  on  the 
subject.  It  isestablished  by  the  testimony  of  Sitting  Bull,  one  of  the  most 
honest  and  faithful  ol'theOgallallaheadmen,who  had  been  deputed  tocount 
them,  and  who  had  actually  counted  them.  It  is  proven  by  the  receipt 
of  Louis  Reshaw,  given  on  the  day  of  delivery,  and  by  the  clerks  and 
employes  who  were  present,  to  say  nothing  of  the  positive  statement  of 
the  agent  himself.  Louis  Reshaw  was  examined  as  a  witness  before 


XXI 


the  commission,  and  bis  testimony  as  there  given  repudiates  the  certifi 
cate  given  to  Professor  Marsh,  with  all  the  conclusions  which  he  draws 
from  that  supposed  fact. 

The  commission  do  not  concur  in  the  censure  which  the  Professor  has 
passed  upon  the  agent's  late  distribution  of  blankets  that  fall.  It  was 
an  essential  part  of  his  policy  to  enforce  an  enumeration  of  the  Indians 
around  the  agency.  The  blankets  had  been  delivered  some  weeks  pre 
vious  to  that  day,  but  they  were  withheld  from  issue  until  consent  was 
obtained  to  a  count  of  the  numbers  entitled  to  distribution.  So  soon  as 
the  census  was  allowed  to  be  taken  and  the  returns  ascertained,  the 
issue  took  place.  Neither  can  they  see  in  the  fact  that  the  issue  of 
annuity-goods  and  provisions  took  place  in  a  single  day,  and  with  great 
rapidity  and  dispatch,  any  cause  for  condemnation.  The  day  was  cold 
and  wintry ;  the  snow  was  falling  rapidly.  The  Indians  had  assembled 
there  with  their  wives  and  children,  many  of  them  from  a  distance  of 
fifteen  and  twenty  miles  ;  their  supplies  hall  been  withheld  from  them  for 
about  two  weeks  to  enforce  a  count;  they  were  hungry  and  destitute  of 
the  necessary  protection  against  the  weather,  and  it  was  rather  a  merit 
than  a  ground  for  censure  that  such  extraordinary  dispatch  was  re 
sorted  to  to  make  the  distribution  on  that  day.  It  ia  nowhere  asserted 
that  the  distribution  as  among  the  Indians  themselves  was  not  fair  and 
equal;  and  if  the  issue  on  that  day  did  not  assume  that  precise  busi 
ness  character  which  would  have  comported  with  the  Professor's  ideas 
of  mercantile  system,  it  at  least  filled  many  an  empty  stomach,  and 
clothed  many  a  naked  body. 

BEEF-CATTLE. 

Professor  Marsh,  in  his  letter  to  the  President,  charges  fraud  in  the 
matter  of  furnishing  beef  to  the  Indians  at  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

The  fourth  and  ninth  specifications  of  fraud  are  as  follows  : 

Fourth.  "The  beef-cattle  given  to  the  Indians  have  been  very  inferior, 
owing  to  systematic  frauds  practiced  by  the  agent  and  beef-contractors." 

Ninth.  uln  consequence  of  fraud  and  mismanagement,  the  Indians 
suffered  greatly  during  the  past  svihter  for  food  and  clothing." 

He  also  says  that  "  Agent  Saville  was  placed  in  his  position  to  guard 
the  interests  of  the  Indians  and  of  the  Government,  and  it  appears  that 
he  betrayed  both  alike.  He  defrauded  the  Indians  by  withholding  from 
them  provisions  which  he  charged  against  the  Government  as  issued  to 
them." 

Also,  that  "  the  frauds  perpetrated  in  supplying  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  with  beef-cattle  have  been  so  gigantic,  and  so  long  and  system 
atically  continued,  that  it  is  well  worth  while  to  show  how  they  are 
accomplished,  and  who  is  responsible  for  the  outrage." 

Also,  that  "  these  frauds  in  weight,  which  are  consummated  by  di 
rect  collusion  between  the  agent  and  contractor,  and  through  which 
both  the  Indians  and  the  Government  are  so  greatly  defrauded,  form 
only  a  part  of  the  general  system  of  theft.  I  have  reason  to  believe 
that  equal  rascality  is  practiced  in  regard  to  the  number  of  cattle." 

Also,  that  "  another  fruitful  source  of  fraud  in  cattle  at  the  lied  Cloud 
agency  is  the  system  of  stampeding  which  appears  to  have  been  prac 
ticed  there,  at  least  since  the  present  agent  took  charge;"  and  that 
"from  such  stampedes,  and  the  fraudulent  results  following,  both  the 
Indians  and  the  Government  have  suffered  great  loss." 

The  substance  of  these  several  forms  of  statements  may  be  embraced 
under  the  following  heads  : 


XXII 

1.  That  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  Indian  agent  at  the  Bed  Cloud  agency,  and 
James  W.  Bosler  and  his  associates,  who  furnished  the  beef  for  the  use 
of  the  Indians  at  the  agency,  combined  together  in  a  design  to  defraud 
the  United  States  Government  and  the  Indians. 

2.  That  in  pursuance  of  that  design,  Bosler  delivered  to  Saville  cattle 
unfit  for  beef,  which  Saville  knowingly  accepted  and  gave  receipts  for. 

3.  That  Saville  gave  Bosler  receipts  knowingly  for  greater  numbers 
of  cattle  than  were  delivered,  and  that  the  weight  of  cattle  actually  de 
livered  was  greatly  overstated  in  said  receipts. 

4.  That  Saville  knowingly  allowed  cattle,  which  he  had  received  and 
receipted  for,  to  return  to  the  herds  of  Bosler,  to  be  again  delivered  to 
him  by  Bosler  and  again  receipted  for;  and  that  this  kind  of  fraud  was 
systematic. 

5.  That  during  the  winter  of  1874-75  the  Indians  suffered  greatly  for 
food,  as  the  direct  result  of  the  dishonesty  of  Saville,  Bosler,  and  others, 
in  these  respects. 

The  duty  before  us  is  to  ascertain  the  truth  of  these  charges  and  de 
clare  it.  The  great  magnitude  of  the  frauds  alleged  to  have  been  com 
mitted  has  excited  much  public  discussion,  and  has  received  at  our 
hands  thorough  and  searching  investigation  :  and  we  have  omitted 
no  opportunity  to  gain  information,  and  failed  to  call  no  person  be 
fore  us  from  whom  there  seemed  to  be  reasonable  probability 
that  any  fact  bearing  upon  the  subject,  however  slight,  could  be  elic 
ited.  The  evidence  submitted  herewith  comes  from  a  great  number  of 
witnesses,  widely  scattered  over  the  country,  many  of  whom  testified 
from  actual  observation  and  personal  knowledge,  and  many — possibly 
the  greater  number — from  hearsay  and  public  rumor.  Much  of  it,  we 
are  aware,  would  have  been  at  once  rejected  in  any  court  of  law ;  but 
we  preferred  to  hear  it,  trusting  to  be  able  to  give  it  its  just  and  true 
weight  in  drawing  our  conclusions.  It  is  necessary  to  review  this  testi 
mony  to  some  extent,  that  the  correctness  of  our  conclusions  may  the 
more  readily  appear. 

The  charges  submitted  to  us  for  our  consideration  are  contained  in 
the  letters  of  Professor  Marsh  to  the  President,  which  are  presented 
together  in  pamphlet  form.  It  is  apparent  upon*  inspection  that  much 
of  this  pamphlet  is  in  the  nature  of  argument  upon  assumed  facts, 
rather  than  a  statement  of  facts  within  the  writer's  personal  knowl 
edge. 

While  in  the  pamphlet  he  states  his  conclusions  and  opinions  as  facts, 
it  is  manifest  that  he  relies  for  the  reasons  and  grounds  thereof  less 
upon  his  own  observation  and  knowledge  than  upon  the  opinions  and 
conclusions  of  others.  While  we  receive  the  statements  of  Professor 
Marsh  upon  all  matters  within  his  own  personal  knowledge  as  evidence 
of  the  highest  character,  and  entitled  to  the  utmost  confidence,  yet  it 
will  not,  we  think,  be  claimed  by  him  or  any  other  intelligent  person 
that  we  can  with  safety  to  the  public,  or  justice  to  the  individuals  im 
plicated,  adopt  his  conclusions  or  accept  the  results  of  his  argument,  un 
less  they  are  found  upon  full  inquiry  to  be  sustained  by  the  facts.  The 
Professor,  in  the  opening  statement  of  the  evidence  relied  upon  by  him 
upon  the  subject  of  frauds  in  beef-cattle,  makes  the  following  abstract 
of  the  contract  for  beef  for  the  last  fiscal  year : 

The  contract  for  furnishing  cattle  to  this  and  other  Sioux  agencies  for  the  last  fiscal  year 
was  given  to  J.  K.  Foreman,  of  Omaha,  and  was  signed  by  Indian  Commissioner  Smith, 
July  14,  J874.  The  cattle  delivered  were  required  to  average  850  pounds  for  the  first  six 
months,  and  J,000  pounds  for  the  last  six  months,  and  the  price  was  $2.3031n  per  100 pounds 
gross  we'ght,  on  the  hoof.  It  was  expressly  stipulated  that  all  the  beef  offered  for  accept- 


XXIII 

ance  under  this  contract  shall  be  subject  to  a  thorough  inspection,  and  if,  on  such  inspec 
tion,  any  of  it  fails  to  conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall  be  rejected 
by  the  parties  making:  the  inspection.  The  inspectors  were  authorized,  in  such  a  case,  to  re 
quire  the  contractor  to  replace  the  rejected  cattle  within  five  days  by  proper  beef.  If  riot,  the 
right  was  reserved  to  purchase  the  cattle  required  at  the  expense  of  the  contractor.  A  bond 
of  $150,000,  with  two  good  and  sufficient  sureties,  was  required  to  be  given  to  insure  the 
faithful  fulfillment  of  the  contract. 

He  then  proceeds  to  charge  that  this  contract  was  tainted  with  fraud 
from  its  inception,  and  states  the  facts  on  which  the  charge  rests  in  the 
following  language  : 

There  is  abundant  evidence  that  this  contract  was  not  made  in  good  faith.  The  contract 
was  not  filled  by  the  party  to  whom  it  was  given,  but  (like  too  many  Indian  contracts)  was 
transferred  for  "  a  valuable  consideration,"  a  few  days  after  it  was  signed,  to  W.  A.  Paxton, 
of  Omaha.  As  this  assignment  could  not  take  place  by  the  terms  of  the  contract  without 
the  written  consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the  full  responsibility  of  this  transfer 
rests  with  him.  This  contract  was  nominally  in  force  at  the  time  of  my  visit  to  Ked 
Cloud  agency.  The  real  beef-contractor,  however,  whom  I  found  supplying  this  agency, 
was  the  well-known  Bosler,  notorious  for  frauds  in  previous  contracts,  and  for  this  reason 
excluded  by  the  published  regulations  from  any  participation  in  future  contracts.  This 
second  virtual  transfer  of  the  contract  to  him  was  well  known  to  every  one  at  the  agency 
and  in  that  region,  and  must  have  been  equally  well  known  to  the  Interior  Department. 

We  find  the  facts  to  be  that  Mr.  J.  K.  Foreman  was  the  lowest  bidder 
for  beef  for  the  Sioux  agencies;  that  the  contract  was  awarded  to  him; 
that  lie  complied  with  the  requirements  of  the  published  advertisement 
inviting  bids,  and  entered  into  bonds  in  the  required  sum,  one  hundred 
and  fifty  thousand  dollars,  ($150,000,)  giving  as  his  bondsmen  James  W. 
Bosler  and  Joseph  Bosler,  of  Carlisle,  Pennsylvania.  It  is  not  con 
tended,  nor  does  it  appear,  that  the  principal  or  his  bondsmen  were  not 
amply  able  to  respond  to  all  the  requirements  of  the  contract.  Thus 
far,  and  upon  the  face  of  it,  the  contract  is  free  from  any  appearance  of 
fraud,  and  we  cannot  assume  that  the  parties  to  it  were  not  acting  in 
entire  good  faith.  The  contract  was  assigned  on  the  30th  day  of  July, 
1874,  to  William  A.  Paxton,  in  whose  name  it  was  filled.  This  contract 
called  for  the  delivery  of  22,500,000  pounds  of  beef-cattle,  which,  at  the 
contract  price  of  $2.30^L  per  100  pounds,  amounts  to  more  that  8500,000. 
To  execute  such  a  contract  at  so  low  a  rate  successfully  and  profitably  re 
quired  capital,  experience,  skill,  and  business  capacity;  and  it  may  well  be 
that  a  combination  of  capital  and  experience  was  indispensably  necessary 
for  the  execution  of  the  contract ;  and  such  a  combination  might  properly 
be  made  without  raising  any  presumptions  of  fraud  or  fraudulent  pur 
poses.  At  any  rate,  we  find  the  facts  to  be  that  the  assignment  of  the 
contract  from  Foreman  to  Paxton  was  made  for  business  reasons,  and 
not  for  any  full  cash-consideration  paid  at  the  time;  that  Foreman  still 
retained  an  interest  in  the  contract,  and  that  W.  A.  Paxton,  J.  T.  Bald 
win,  A.  H.  Wilder,  1).  W.  C.  Wheeler,  and  .lames  W.  Bosler  became 
associated  with  him ;  that  the  business  of  making  the  purchases  and 
delivering  the  cattle  was  assigned  to  and  undertaken  by  Bosler;  that 
all  deliveries  of  cattle  under  the  contract  were  made  by  Bosler,  in  the 
name  of  William  A.  Paxton,  to  whom  all  vouchers  were  made  payable; 
that  Bosler,  in  consideration  of  his  services,  and  for  the  large  share  of 
the  necessary  capital  furnished  by  him,  became  entitled  to  and  received 
a  greater  share  of  the  profits  than  either  of  his  associates. 

We  fail  to  discover  in  the  above  facts,  about  which  there  is  no  dispute, 
any  evidence  of  fraud  in  the  making  or  in  the  assignment  of  the  con 
tract,  or  in  the  combinations  for  its  execution.  They  seem  to  be  quite 
as  consistent  with  an  intention  faithfully  to  carry  out  the  contract  OQ 
the  part  of  Mr.  Paxton  and  his  associates  as  with  any  purpose  to  de 
fraud  the  Government;  and  it  would  be  a  violation  of  every  rule  of 
morals,  as  well  as  of  law,  to  draw  from  these  circumstances  inferences 


XXIV 

of  fraud  or  of  fraudulent  intent,  when  the  opposite  conclusion  is  equally 
consistent  with  the  facts,  and  natural. 

The  Professor,  in  the  same  paragraph  of  his  pamphlet,  speaks  of  Mr. 
Bosler  as  u  notorious  for  frauds  in  previous  contracts,  and  for  this  reason 
excluded  by  the  published  regulations  from  any  participation  in  future 
contracts." 

We  find  the  facts  to  be  that  Mr.  Bosler  has  at  various  times  had  con 
tracts  with  the  War  and  Indian  Departments,  and  that  he  never  was 
refused  a  contract  when  his  bid  entitled  him  to  it,  but  has  always  been 
awarded  the  contract  when  he  has  been  the  lowest  bidder.  It  has  not 
been  shown  or  attempted  to  be  shown  that  he  had  violated  any  pre 
vious  contract  or  been  a  party  to  any  previous  frauds  upon  the  Govern 
ment.  He  has  had  a  contract  directly  and  in  his  own  name  with  the 
Indian  Department  every  year  except  one  for  many  years,  and  then  he 
failed  to  be  the  lowest  bidder.  He  has  such  a  contract  this  year.  We 
find  that  this  charge  is  wholly  unsupported,  and  we  find  nowhere  in  the 
evidence  anything  to  warrant  us  in  saying  that  Mr.  Bosler  is  not  prop 
erly  regarded  as  an  honest  man  in  all  his  business  transactions. 

We  may  as  well  here  state  the  relation  of  J.  W.  Bosler  with  the  con 
tract  for  supplying  the  Sioux  agencies  with  beef  for  the  current  year, 
which  we  find  to  be  as  follows: 

This  contract  was  awarded  to  Seth  Mabry,  of  the  firm  of  Mabry  & 
Miliett,  Texas  cattle-dealers.  They,  with  other  firms  associated  with 
them,  having  sent  forward  from  Texas  numerous  herds  of  cattle,  and 
among  them  25,000  head  of  cows  and  beeves  for  which  they  desired  to 
secure  a  market  at  an  advance  over  last  year's  rates,  Mr.  Mabry 
went  to  New  York  and  there  put  in  a  bid  to  supply  all  the  Sioux 
agencies  for  the  current  year  at  $2.4GJ  per  100  pounds,  and,  his  being 
the  lowest  bid,  he  was  awarded  the  contract.  His  object,  however,  was 
to  force  a  market  for  cattle  then  on  the  way,  and  not  to  engage  in  the 
business  of  delivering  the  cattle  to  the  agencies.  He,  therefore,  imme 
diately  made  an  arrangement  with  Mr.  Bosler,  by  which  Bosler  should 
pay  him  for  all  his  cows  $12  per  head,  and  for  beeves  four  years  old  and 
upward  $20  per  head,  advance  him  $30,000  cash,  and  furnish  the  re 
quired  security  for  the  fulfillment  of  the  contract. 

Under  this  arrangement,  Mr.  Bosler  has  purchased  for  cash  over 
33,000  head  of  beef  cattle,  which  have  been  and  were  at  the  time  of  our 
visit  being  delivered  on  the  Platte  River  and  at  other  points  convenient 
to  the  several  agencies.  On  delivering  the  cattle  he  receives  vouchers 
in  Mr.  Mabry's  name  and  as  his  agent. 

Professor  Marsh  charges  that  Saville  claimed  credit  as  for  the  8th 
day  of  November,  1874,  for  the  issue  of  "  271,248  pounds  of  beef,"  or 
over  200  head  of  cattle,  according  to  the  average  weight  which  he  al 
lowed  the  contractor  on  the  last  herd  received,  and  adds:  "The  truth 
is,  that  he  issued  no  beef  whatever  to  the  Indians  on  that  day,  nor  for 
several  days  afterward,  as  I  understand  from  the  agent  and  others  at 
the  agency."  "  I  arrived  at  the  agency  November  0,  and  was  informed  by 
the  agent  that  he  had  been  for  some  time  withholding  rations  from  the 
Indians  until  they  would  consent  to  be  counted,"  &c.  Recurring  to  the 
same  subject,  on  page  14,  he  says : 

For  example,  there  is  conclusive  evidence  that  the  only  cattle  at  the  agency  Novemher  11, 
1874,  were  the  seven  head  of  puny  animals  examined  by  General  Bradley;  yet,  according 
to  the  provision-returns  of  Agent  Saville  for  the  fourth  quarter  of  1874,  now  on  file  in  the  In 
terior  Department,  he  should  have  had  184,905  pounds,  or,  according  to  his  official  receipts, 
179  head.  It  has  been  shown  above,  however,  that  the  beef-issue  which  he  claimed  to  have 
made  November  8  did  not  take  place;  hence  he  should  have  had  on  November  11  at  least 
446,427  pounds  of  beef,  or  about  430  head  of  cattle  when  he  actually  had  only  seven. 


XXV 

This  charge  has  been  made  not  only  by  Professor  Marsh,  but  by  other 
persons  through  the  press  and  otherwise,  and  merits  full  consideration. 
The  facts  which  we  have  upon  the  subject  are  as  follows  : 

It  is  true  that  no  beef  was  issued  to'the  Indians  on  November  8, 1874, 
nor  afterward  until  November  14,  w^hen  Professor  Marsh  was  present. 
It  is  claimed  by  Dr.  Saville.  however,  that  issues  of  beef  did  take  place 
between  the  1st  and  8th  of  November  as  follows: 

November  2  issued 377 

November  2,  to  Big  Horn  and  Small  Horse 1 

November  2,  to  Scraper 1 

November  2,  to  White  Thunder 2 

November  2,  to  Keeps  the  Battle 1 

November  2,  to  Big  Hawk  and  W7ornaii's  Dress 1 

November  2,  to  soldiers 1 

November  2,  to  Spotted  Elk  and  Little  Star 1 

November  7.  butchered 2 

Total -387 

And  that  the  date  "November  8"  was  intended  to  cover  all  issues  from 
the  1st  to  the  8th.  If  the  issue  claimed  by  Dr.  Saville  actually  took 
place,  not  on  the  8th,  but  from  the  1st  to  the  7th  inclusive,  it  is  of  but 
little  consequence  as  to  the  precise  date  of  the  issue.  Professor  Marsh 
offers  the  admissions  and  statements  of  Dr.  Saville,  made  to  him  at  lied 
Cloud  and  at  Washington,  to  prove  that  no  issue  took  place  on  the  8th, 
and  claims  that  having  proved  that  fact  the  inference  necessarily  fol 
lows  that  Dr.  Saville  is  guilty  of  having  defrauded  the  Indians  of  that 
amount  of  beef,  and  the  Government  of  the  contract  price,  or  the  sum 
of  about  $6,247.  The  fact  being  admitted  that  no  issue  was  made  No 
vember  8,  as  claimed  by  Professor  Marsh,  the  question  arises,  "Was 
that  amount  of  beef  issued  at  all  F'  Upon  this  subject  we  state  the  fact 
that  we  find  upon  the  book  of  beef  receipts  and  issues  claimed  by  Dr. 
Saville  and  his  clerk  to  have  been  kept  at  the  time,  and  to  be  the  book 
of  original  entries,  an  account  of  the  issue  of  377  head  as  one  item  un 
der  date  of  November  2,  and  of  eight  cattle  issued  to  individual  Indians 
by  name,  on  the  same  day,  and  of  two  butchered  on  the  7th  of  Novem 
ber,  as  above  stated. 

Dr.  Saville  also,  in  his  reply  to  Professor  Marsh's  charges,  printed 
herewith  on  page  380,  says: 

Upon  referring  to  my  abstracts  of  issues  I  find  what  Professor  Marsh  characterizes  as 
fraud  is  a  clerical  error  in  the  clerk  placing  the  figures  opposite  the  date  of  the  8th  instead 
of  the  1st  of  November,  as  it  should  be.  Furthermore,  that  the  forms  upon  which  these  ab 
stracts  aremade  do  not  and  cannot  represent  all  the  facts  connected  with  the  issue  of  provis 
ions,  and,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  all  the  issues  are  not  made  upon  the  first  dates,  but,  as  it 
will  be  observed,  they  are  to  date  from  the  8th  to  the  14th,  and  from  the  15th  to  the  22d,  and 
so  on ;  and  that  the  issues  are  made  on  either  of  the  days  between  these  two  dates  ;  that  the 
issues  of  beef  are  always  made  on  different  days  from  the  issue  of  other  rations,  arid  that 
these  dates  represent  the  number  of  days  for  which  the  amount  of  rations  set  opposite  these 
days  are  given,  and  that  they  foot  up  an  aggregate  of  the  correct  amount  of  provisions  that 
are  issued  during  the  quarter,  each  month's  issue  being  divided  into  four  parts  and  thus  en 
tered  on  the  abstracts. 

He  also,  at  page  382,  says : 

The  issue  represented  on  the  abstract  opposite  the  date  of  the  8th  to  the  loth  should  be 
opposite  to  the  dates  of  the  1st  to  the  7th. 

It  appears  by  the  returns  of  Dr.  Saville  that  he  had  on  the  1st  of  Oc 
tober,  1874,  issued  to  the  Indians  all  the  cattle  he  had  received  and 
receipted  for  up  to  that  date,  except  278  head,  which  he  carried  on  his 
books  as  on  hand,  as  of  the  weight  of  288,804  pounds.  These  cattle, 
however,  were  not  on  hand,  but  represented  the  number  which  had 
stampeded  from  the  agency  to  the  contractor's  herd,  as  was  supposed, 


XXVI 

on  the  night  of  the  7th  of  September,  and  of  which  no  portion  had  at 
that  date,  October  1,  been  returned  to  the  agency.  The  circumstances 
attending  that  stampede  will  be  stated  hereafter  in  considering  another 
charge  of  Professor  Marsh. 

On  the  1st  of  October  the  contractor  delivered,  as  appears  by  the  re 
turns,  603  head,  weighing  091,509  pounds,  for  which  he  gave  receipts, 
and,  as  we  believe,  150  more,  which  were  not  receipted  for,  but  returned 
as  part  of  those  stampeded,  making  a  total  of  813.  There  were  issued 
to  the  Indians  on  that  day,  as  appears  by  the  books  of  the  agent,  306 
head,  and  on  the  5th,  8  head,  making  a  total  of  374,  and  leaving  on 
hand  439.  There  were  issued  October  llth,  380;  on  the  16th,  2  ;  on 
the  19th,  1 ;  a  total  of  383,  leaving  on  hand  October  19th,  50.  On  the 
30th  of  October  there  were  received  758  head,  making  the  total  on  hand 
that  day  of  814.  On  the  21st  of  October  there  were  issued  392  head, 
and  between  the  21st  and  31st,  23  ;  a  total  of  415,  and  leaving  on  hand, 
November  1st,  399.  The  books  show  that  on  the  2d  of  November  the 
agent  issued  377  head,  and  to  individual  Indians  8;  and  that  on 
the  7th  2  wrere  butchered,  leaving  a  balance  on  hand  of  12. 

If  his  accounts  are  correct  he  could  have  on  hand  for  which  receipts 
had  been  given  but  twelve  cattle. 

In  stating  this  account,  we  have  placed  150  head  of  stampeded  cattle 
as  having  been  delivered  with  the  603  on  October  1,  and  for  this  reason  : 
It  does  not  appear  that  the  agent  received  any  cattle  between  the  1st  and 
20th  of  that  mouth.  He  claims  to  have  issued  between  the  1st  and  the 
19th  757  cattle,  which  are  more  than  he  could  possibly  have  had  on  hand, 
unless  some  portions  of  the  stampeded  cattle  had  been  received  by  him 
between  the  1st  and  19th,  and  more  than  he  had  receipted  for.  He 
claims  to  have  received  from  Bosler  150  of  the  stampeded  cattle  before 
the  14th  of  November,  when  Professor  Marsh  wTas  there  ;  for  he  says  in 
his  testimony,  (p.  385,)  "  On  the  2d  of  November  I  made  the  last  issue 
before  we  counted  the  Indians.  Mr.  Bosler  had  brought  here  150  of 
those  cattle  which  had  escaped."  On  page  386  he  says,  u  Mr.  Bosler 
returned  the  150  in  November."  And  on  page  391,  in  answer  to  the 
question,  "  How  many  cattle  did  Mr.  Bosler  return  to  you  on  account  of 
the  stampede  ?"  he  says  :  "  On  the  settlement  with  him,  in  the  middle 
of  November,  he  returned  150  head."  He  also  says:  UI  took  them, 
calling  them  the  same  average  weights  of  those  of  September  7,  the  last 
received,  the  average  being  1,038  pounds  each." 

As  to  the  time  when  the  150  stampeded  cattle  were  returned,  Dr.  Sa- 
ville  seems  to  be  in  some  confusion  of  memory;  but,  as  no  record  was 
made  of  it,  and  he  simply  received  at  some  delivery  at  about  that  time 
150  head  more  than  he  gave  a  receipt  for,  it  may  not  be  strange  that  he 
should  not  now  remember,  or  be  able  to  testify,  with  entire  accuracy. 
From  these  facts  it  seems  conclusive  that  he  must  have  received  150 
head  more  on  the  1st  of  October  than  he  receipted  for.  This  view  of  the 
matter  is  strengthened  by  the  testimony  of  G.  M.  Bosler,  who  says,  in 
speaking  of  the  stampede  of  September  7,  1874  :  "  I  know  that  at  the 
next  delivery  an  equal  number  of  cattle  was  stricken  off  to  make  up  the 
number." 

It  is  proper  to  state  in  this  connection  that  Mr.  Bosler  claimed,  and 
still  claims,  that  of  the  278  head  lost  only  150  head  returned  to  his  herd, 
which  explains  what  G.  M.  Bosler,  the  chief  herder,  means  by  saying 
that  "an  equal  number  of  cattle  were  taken  off." 

While  we  cannot  too  strongly  condemn  a  system  of  book-keeping 
which  would  leave  an  item  so  large  in  amount  as  this  one  is  in  doubt, 
either  as  to  the  time  or  the  fact  of  the  return,  we  cannot  but  believe  the 
fact,  as  Dr.  Saville  states  it  to  be,  that  of  the  278  head  of  cattle  lost  he 


XXVII 

had  obtained  from  Bosler  before  the  2d  of  November  150  head  of  cattle 
of  substantially  equal  size  and  value.  The  correspondence  and  affida 
vits  printed  on  pages  443-6  show  that  the  matter  of  the  stampede,  the 
recovery  of  150  head,  and  the  possible  loss  of  128  head,  was  fully  com 
municated  to  the  Department  as  early  as  December  21,  1874,  at  a  time 
when  no  frauds,  so  far  as  appears,  had  been  imputed  to  Dr.  Saville  or 
the  contractor.  As  the  statements  then  made  are  in  substance  the  same 
as  those  now  made,  we  incline,  and,  indeed,  feel  compelled,  to  accept 
this  as  true.  This  disposes  of  the  statement  of  Professor  Marsh  that 
Dr.  Saville  should  have  had  on  hand,  November  llth,  430  head,  weighing 
246,427  pounds,  for  it  conclusively  shows  that  he  could  have  had  on  hand 
but  twelve  head.  We  are,  therefore,  of  the  opinion  that  the  charge  that 
Dr.  Saville  cheated  the  Indians  out  of  the  issue  claimed  by  him  to  have 
been  made  November  8, 1874,  and  the  Government  of  their  price,  is  with 
out  foundation. 

It  is  claimed  of  the  seven  head  of  cattle  which  were  in  the  agency 
herd,  and  which  were  all  that  remained  on  hand  November  9  : 

1.  That  they  were  small,  inferior  cattle,  unfit  for  beef,  and  weighing, 
gross,  only  358  pounds  each. 

2.  That  they  had  been  receipted  for  to  the  contractor  and  accepted  by 
the  agent ;  and, 

3.  That  they  were  not  smaller  than  those  turned  over  for  slaughter  on 
any  ordinary  issue-day. 

That  these  cattle  were  poor,  small,  and  unfit  for  beef,  is  established 
not  only  by  the  certificate  of  Gen.  L.  P.  Bradley,  Capt.  John  Mix,  and 
Lieutenant  Hay,  published  in  the  pamphlet,  but  by  the  testimony  of  all 
the  other  witnesses  who  saw  them,  and  by  the  admission  of  Dr.  Saville 
himself.  But  that  they  had  ever  been  receipted  for  to  the  contractor, 
or  issued  to  the  Indians  at  all,  as  stated  by  lied  Cloud,  is  by  no  means 
established.  There  is  much  testimony  to  the  effect  that  Dr.  Saville  re 
fused  to  receipt  for  13  to  15  head  of  cattle  because  they  were  small  and 
unfit  for  issue,  and  that,  in  fact,  they  were  never  issued  to  the  Indians 
at  all,  but  were  taken  off  and  killed  by  them  without  any  authority  from 
the  agent  and  without  payment  to  the  contractor. 

It  will  be  noticed  that  from  the  certificate  of  General  Bradley  and 
others,  the  statement  of  Reel  Cloud  to  the  effect  that  these  cattle  had 
been  issued  to  his  people,  and  that  they  were  not  smaller  than  those 
turned  over  for  slaughter  on  an  ordinary  issue-day,  is  left  to  stand 
without  any  indorsement  from  these  officers,  upon  the  evidence  of  Red 
Cloud  and  two  other  Indians.  It  may,  therefore,  be  doubted  whether 
the  officers  themselves  placed  much  confidence  in  the  statement  of  the 
Indians.  It  is  much  to  be  regretted  that  General  Bradley  and 
his  associatesr  if  they  desired  to  ascertain  the  probable  facts  con 
cerning  the  weight  and  quality  of  the  cattle  issued  to  the  Indians,  did 
not,  instead  of  visiting  the  remainder  of  a  herd  of  seven  poor  cattle 
without  the  knowledge  of  the  agent  or  contractor,  visit  the  agency  cor 
ral  when  701  head  of  cattle  were  being  weighed  and  issued  within  a 
mil?  and  a  half  of  their  camp.  Had  they  done  so,  they  would  have 
been  able  to  furnish  us  with  important  aid  in  settling  the  vexed  question 
of  frauds  in  beef-contracts. 

It  cannot  be  seriously  claimed  even  by  Professor  Marsh  that  the  weight 
of  cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency  at  that  time  was  only  358 
pounds  gross,  for  the  average  of  yearlings  would  be  as  great  as  or  even 
greater  than  that ;  and  there  is  oVerwhelming  evidence  that  the  great 
bulk  of  the  cattle  were  full-grown  cows  and  oxen,  and  that  few  young 
cattle  were  delivered. 


XXVIII 

Professor  Marsh  claims  tbat  Dr.  Saville  admitted  to  the  Rev.  S.  D. 
Himnan  and  himself  that  "these  seven  cattle  had  all  been  receipted  for  to 
the  contractor,  received  by  him,  and  were  in  his  charge;"  and  that  "all, 
or  nearly  all,  of  them  were  subsequently  issued  to  the  Indians."  Saville 
denies  this  in  the  following-  words,  viz:  "I  told  him  that  I  did  not  re 
member  distinctly  the  facts  about  the  cattle  ;  that  my  impression  was 
that  there  were  six  instead  of  eight,  and  two  of  them  at  least  were  year 
lings,  and  had  not  been  received  from  the  contractor ;  and  this  indefi 
nite  statement  Professor  Marsh  tortures  into  his  positive  statement, 
which  I  corrected  twice — once  in  the  presence  of  Bishop  Hare,  when  1 
accused  him  of  perverting  my  words.  Yet  after  this  correction  he  pub 
lishes  this  incorrect  statement  as  quoted  from  me.  On  my  return  to  the 
agency  I  found  the  facts  as  follows  ;  Two  of  the  eight  cattle  referred  to 
by  Professor  Marsh  were  milch-cows — one  of  them  belonging  to  Mr. 
lieed,  living  near  Cheyenne,  the  other  a  cow  which  the  herders  had  milked 
all  summer,  and  the  remaining  six  were  a  part  of  the  thirteen  head 
which  I  had  rejected,  and  which,  instead  of  being  taken  as  usual  out  of 
the  corral  by  the  Indians,  had  gone  to  the  range  with,  the  herd.  Some 
of  these  cattle  were  killed  on  the  range,  as  was  the  case  with  the  inilch- 
cows,  but  none  of  them  were  issued  to  the  Indians  as  beef."  Bishop  Hare 
is  here  called  in  to  settle  the  point  in  dispute,  who. says,  in  answer  to 
the  question  :  "  What  is  your  recollection  as  to  that  conversation  !" 

I  understood  the  point  Professor  Marsh  made  was  that  Dr.  Saville  had  said  that  he  re 
ceipted  for  those  seven  head  of  cattle,  and  thereby  made  the  Government  responsible  for 
them,  while  I  understood  Dr.  Saville  to  say  that  he  did  not  receipt  for  them,  but  simply 
received  them.  He  made  a  distinction  between  the  two  words.  He  (Saville)  repre 
sented  that  they  were  driven  up  with  the  rest  of  the  cattle,  and  he  had  permitted  them  to 
be  driven  into  the  corral,  and  afterward  they  were  issued  to  the  Indians;  that  he  did  not 
receipt  for  them,  although  he  received  them.  There  is  a  distinction  plainly  implied  between 
the  two  words.  That  is  to  say,  if  he  had  receipted  for  them  the  Government  would  be  re 
sponsible  and  had  to  pay  for  them,  while  if  he  merely  allowed  them  to  be  driven  in  and 
did  not  receipt  for  them,  the  Government  was  not  responsible  for  them, 
The  difference  was  in  the  two  words  "  receipted  "  arid  "  received,"  Professor  Marsh  under 
standing  that  it  was  "  receipted,''  and  Dr.  Saville  that  it  was  "  received."  It  was  in  regard 
to  that  that  the  feeling  was  displayed.  As  to  what  Suville  had  previously  said  I  do  not 
know. 

The  testimony  of  Bishop  Hare  corroborates  Seville's  statement,  and 
leads  us  to  the  conclusion  that  Professor  Marsh  misunderstood  Dr. 
Saville.  The  statement  of  Dr.  Saville  is  further  confirmed  by  J.  H. 
Bosler,  the  brother  of  J.  W.  Bosler,  the  superintendent  for  the  con 
tractors,  who  testifies  (p.  103)  as  follows  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  of  a  time  when  there  were  only  seven  head  of  cattle  at 
Red  Cloud  agency  '! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  cannot  tell  the  number,  but  I  remember  the  time  that  there  was  a  small 
bunch  of  cattle  there. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  Poor  cattle,  and  such  cattle  as  Dr.  Saville  rejected  arid  never  receipted  to  me  for.  I 
•was  in  the  East,  and  I  returned  some  time  in  December — I  think  it  was  the  latter  part  of 
December — and  there  were  cattle  unreceipted  for  for  some  time  back,  and  Dr.  Saville  told 
me  that  there  had  been  a  lot  of  cattle  received  in  November  that  he  thought  he  would 
have  to  reject,  and  it  strikes  me  it  was  fifteen  head  that  he  just  struck  off  the  aver 
age  and  did  not  receipt  for.  I  had  the  privilege  of  taking  them  out  of  the  herd,  but  they 
were  killed  by  the  Indians,  so  that  I  never  got  them  out  and  never  got  any  pay  for  them. 

From  all  the  evidence  we  are  satisfied  that  the  cattle  wrere  never  re 
ceipted  for  or  issued  by  the  agent,  and  that  they  were  not  a  fair  sam 
ple  of  the  cattle  usually  issued  to  the  agency. 

Before  passing  from  this  subject,  however,  it  may  be  well  to  note  how 
General  Bradley,  Captain  Mix,  and  Lieutenant  Hay  arrived  at  the  aver 
age  gross  weight  of  these  cattle.  In  their  certificate  they  say  that  "  Each 


XXIX 

of  us,  unknown  to  the  other,  marked  at  that  time  his  estimate  of  the 
gross  weight  of  these  cattle,  and  remember  the  average  thereof  to  be  358 
pounds."  Certainly  one  would  understand,  from  the  above,  that  358 
pounds  was  the  gross  weight.  The  testimony  of  General  Bradley  con 
veyed  the  idea  that  the  358  pounds  were  gross  weight,  though  not 
distinctly  so  stated  by  him.  Lieut.  Leonard  Hay,  in  describing  the 
cattle,  says :  "  There  were  seven  head  of  cattle  there,  and  there  were 
two  cows  out  of  the  seven.  There  was  only  one  which  might  be  called 
a  steer,  but  it  was  not  full  grown  at  all,  and  the  others  were  undersized 
and  meager  in  flesh.  *  *  *  My  estimate  was  450  pounds  gross,  just 
as  they  stood.  The  estimate  of  the  other  gentlemen  was  smaller,  and 
the  total  added  up  and  divided  by  the  number  was,  I  think,  some  358 
pounds  gross.'7  It  turns  out  after  all,  notwithstanding  the  testimony 
of  these  gentlemen  and  their  certificate,  that  the  358  pounds  represented 
the  net  weight  and  not  the  gross.  Captain  Mix,  who  also  signed  the 
certificate,  says,  in  his  testimony,  (p.  512 :) 

I  should  explain  to  the  commission  that  the  estimate  which  we  made  there  of  the  weight 
of  the  cattle  was  an  estimate  of  their  net  weight.  But  Mr.  Hay  thought  we  were  estimat 
ing  on  the  gross  weight,  and  his  figures  were  not  changed,  because  we  thought  the  matter 
might  be  inquired  into,  and  it  would  not  look  well  to  change  the  figures.  For  this  reason 
the  average  net  weight  was  increased  about  thirty  pounds,  I  think  ;  and  therefore  this  aver 
age  we  made  of  358  pounds  was  the  net  weight,  and  not  the  gross  weight. 

If  we  correct  the  error  which  Captain  Mix  says  arose  from  Lieuten 
ant  Hay's  mode  of  estimating,  and  deduct  thirty  pounds,  which  is  man 
ifestly  too  great  an  amount,  from  the  358  pounds  net,  we  have  328 
pounds  net,  or  656  pounds  gross,  for  these  very  poor  cattle,  the  remain 
der  of  a  herd. 

We  think  the  certificate  of  the  Army  officers  suffers  much  by  the  cor 
rection  of  Captain  Mix.  We  can  hardly  conceive  of  a  less  reliable  mode 
of  ascertaining  either  the  net  or  gross  weight  of  any  herd  of  cattle  than 
that  adopted  by  these  gentlemen.  That  out  of  several  hundred  deliv 
ered,  seven  cattle  might  be  found  which  would  not  average  more  than 
650  to  700  pounds,  is  a  fact  which  we  think  may  have  existed,  and  yet 
the  whole  average  for  six  months  be  as  great  as  the  receipts  of  Dr.  Sa- 
ville  show.  The  fact  that  cattle  of  the  description  of  these  seven  head 
will  average  in  the  neighborhood  of  700  pounds  per  head,  may  serve  to 
assist  us  in  determining  what  herds  of  full-grown  cows  and  steers,  four 
years  old  and  upward,  in  fair  condition,  ought  to  average. 

The  following  affidavit  is  in  point : 

STATE  OF  IOWA, 

IVoodbury  County,  -ss  : 

I,  Cornelius  McNamara,  of  Woodbury  County,  Iowa,  being  duly  sworn  according  to  law, 
declare  and  say  that,  hi  the  month  of  November,  1874, 1  was  employed  at  Red  Cloud  agency 
as  chief  herder,  under  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent ;  that  after  the  issue  of  beef- 
cattle,  of  November  2,  J874,  there  remained  on  the  range  two  milch-cows,  two  yearling  calves, 
and  four  head  of  poor  cattle,  which  the  agent,  J.  J.  Saville,  told  me  not  to  issue  to  the  In 
dians,  as  he  intended  to  reject  them  from  the  receipts  of  the  contractor;  that  one  of  said 
cows  was  afterward  killed  by  a  bank  falling  upon  her;  that  two  of  said  four  cattle  were 
crippled  in  some  manner  before  being  turned  over  to  me,  supposed  to  have  been  crippled  in 
weighing;  that  both  of  said  cattle  (steers)  afterward  died,  one  from  its  injuries  and  the  other 
from  some  other  cause  ;  that  I  killed  one  of  the  calves  and  used  the  meat  for  the  herders  at 
the  herding  camp  ;  that  the  remaining  cow  was  killed  by  the  Indians,  and  the  remaining 
calf  and  two  poor  steers  I  gave  to  the  Indians,  making  no  count  or  charge  for  them. 

CORNELIUS  McNAMARA, 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  and  in  my  presence  by  Cornelius  McNamara,  at  Sioux 
City,  Iowa,  this  23d  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1875. 

E.  B.  SPALDING, 
Clerk  District  Court  in  and  for  It'oodbury  County,  Iowa. 


XXX 

Professor  Marsh  makes  the  charge  that  on  the  4th  day  of  November 
Dr.  Saville  received  and  receipted  for  several  hundred  head  of  Texas 
cattle,  at  an  average  weight  of  1,043  pounds,  and  issued  them  to  the  In 
dians,  while  the  true  weight  did  not  exceed,  in  his  judgment,  750  pounds, 
which  he  considered  a  liberal  estimate.  He  says  that  all  the  cattle  of 
this  herd  "  were  wretchedly  gaunt  and  thin,  and  a  majority  of  them 
were  small,  many  of  them  being  yearlings.  A  large  number  of  them, 
were  of  the  kind  known  among  cattle  men  as  '  scalawags,'  and  not  a  few 
of  them  were  weak  and  decrepit." 

The  testimony  on  this  subject  is  very  voluminous,  and  involves  the 
general  question  of  the  weight  of  Texas  cattle  when  weighed  directly  off 
the  range,  as  is  the  present  and  in  fact  the  only  possible  system  with  the 
facilities  now  at  the  command  of  the  Indian  agents  in  that  country.  In 
Army  contracts  it  is  usual  to  require  that  cattle  shall  be  u  lotted,"  that 
is,  kept  from  food  and  water  twelve  hours  before  weighing,  and  yards 
or  corrals  for  that  purpose  are  provided.  A  similar  rule  governs  the  de 
livery  of  beef  at  the  great  beef-markets  of  the  country,  but  at  the  In 
dian  agencies  no  such  rule  has  ever  been  adopted,  nor  can  it  be  until  the 
Government  shall  erect  corrals  of  sufficient  capacity  to  hold  the  large 
herds  which  are  required  to  supply  the  Indians. 

The  Department,  contractors,  and  all  persons  concerned  understand 
that  beef  for  the  Sioux  Indians  is  to  be  delivered  on  the  hoof  directly 
"off  grass  and  water.'7  The  difference  in  weight  of  an  ox  "off  grass 
and  water"  and  one  which  has  been  lotted  twelve  hours  is  differently 
estimated  at  from  50  to  100  pounds.  An  ox  which  would  weigh  1,050 
pounds  "  off  grass  and  water,"  would  weigh  from  950  to  1,000  pounds  if 
lotted  twelve  hours ;  and  if  shipped  a  long  way  by  rail,  the  shrinkage 
would  be  much  greater.  This  difference  is  well  understood  by  men  who 
take  Indian  contracts,  and  they  are  thereby  enabled  to  put  their 
price  so  much  under  that  at  which  lotted  cattle  are  furnished,  as  to  lead 
men  not  familiar  with  the  subject  to  think  and  say  that  such  a  contract 
cannot  be  honestly  filled  without  loss.  The  practice  of  receiving  and 
weighing  beef  cattle  at  the  Indian  agencies  without  a  previous  "  lotting" 
has  probably  resulted  in  little  if  any  real  loss  to  the  Government,  since 
contracts  have  been  made  with  a  full  understanding  that  the  price  must 
be  put  low  enough  to  cover  the  difference  of  weight.  But  the  practice 
admits  into  every  contract  for  beef  too  large  an  element  of  uncertainty 
to  be  consistent  with  sound  business  methods.  Taking  50  pounds  as  a 
fair  average  of  the  amount  added  to  the  weight  of  an  animal  that  is 
weighed  directly  "off  grass  and  water,"  the  Government  pays  annually, 
on  the  30,000  cattle  required  to  supply  the  Sioux  agencies,  for  1,500,000 
pounds  of  grass  and  water,  trusting  to  procure  the  whole  supply  at  a 
rate  sufficiently  low  to  balance  the  loss.  At  $2.46£  per  100  pounds  this 
amounts  to  $36,975,  which  is  plainly  too  large  an  element  of  uncertainty. 
We  think  that  if  it  should  be  stipulated  in  all  future  contracts  that  all 
beef-cattle  received  at  the  agency  shall  be  "lotted,"  or,  where  this  is  im 
possible  for  the  want  of  the  necessary  inclosures,  that;  some  fixed  amount 
be  deducted  from  the  gross  weight  of  each  animal,  bidders  would  be 
placed  upon  fairer  terms  of  equality,  and  increased  competition  would 
result.  We  think  it  proper  here  to  state  that  we  entered  into  this  inves 
tigation  with  the  idea  strongly  impressed  on  our  minds  that  no  ordi 
nary  herd  of  Texas  cattle  could  average  anything  like  a  thousand 
pounds.  On  our  way  i'rom  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  we  saw  cattle  of 
this  class,  and  their  weight  was  a  matter  of  discussion  among  some  of  the 
members  of  the  commission,  and  they  were  of  the  opinion  that  from  750 
to  850  pounds  would  be  a  good  average.  We  were  none  of  us  prepared  for 


XXXI 


the  actual  demonstration  which  we  witnessed.  We  arrived  at  Red  Cloud 
on  the  8th  of  August ;  the  9th  and  10th  were  spent  in  investigations  and 
in  witnessing  issues  of  provisions.  On  the  llth,  a  herd  of  377  cattle 
was  driven  up  to  the  agency  for  issue.  They  arrived  at  about  9  o'clock 
a.  in.,  and  the  commission  repaired  to  the  corral  to  witness  the  process 
of  weighing  and  issuing.  The  scales  were  examined  by  the  commission, 
and  balanced  by  one  of  the  number  before  the  work  began.  All  the  377 
cattle  were  weighed,  except  three  powerful  and  wild  steers,  the  last  of 
the  herd,  which  jumped  from  one  division  of  the  corral  to  the  other, 
breaking,  as  they  passed,  large  rails  which  formed  a  part  of  the  parti 
tion.  The  whole  were  weighed  in  one  hour  and  twenty  minutes,  or  at 
the  rate  of  about  four  and  a  half  per  minute.  One  of  the  commissioners 
took  the  weight  of  each  draught  from  the  scale-beam,  the  other  mem 
bers  being  present  and  carefully  watching  the  proceedings.  A  complete 
copy  of  the  record  made  on  the  spot  will  be  found  in  the  appendix. 

The  average  of  the  herd  was  1,053  pounds,  and  it  will  be  seen  that 
many  of  them  weighed  more  than  1,200  pounds,  and  a  few  probably  more 
than  1,300  pounds.  They  were  all  driven  from  Texas  during  the  last 
spring,  and  arrived  on  the  Platte  during  June  and  July.  With  this  evi 
dence  the  question  of  the  possibility  of  a  contractor  being  able  to  deliver 
cattle  of  the  weight  of  1,000  pounds  and  upward  would  seem  to  be  set 
tled.  But  that  we  might  be  certain  that  this  herd  had  not  been  select 
ed  for  the  occasion,  three  days  later,  on  our  way  to  Spotted  Tail,  we 
made  a  detour  of  about  thirty-five  miles  and  visited  the  contractor's 
herd  on  the  Niobrara  River.  That  herd  contained  about  5,500  head,  and 
they  were  of  the  same  class  and  of  about  the  same  average  size  and 
weight  as  those  we  had  seen  delivered  on  the  llth.  We  caused  them 
all  to  be  driven  before  us,  and  two  of  the  commissioners  also  rode 
through  them,  as  they  were  scattered  over  the  plain,  carefully  noticing 
many  hundreds;  and  we  became  fully  satisfied  that  the  377  delivered  at 
the  agency  were  no  more  than  a  fair  sample  of  the  larger  herd.  A  few 
of  the  cattle  were  small ;  but  they  were  generally  mature  and  of  a  full 
age.  An  occasional  calf  by  the  side  of  its  mother  was  seen,  and  a  few 
yearlings;  but  we  should  say  of  the  whole  number,  there  were  altogether 
less  than  fifty  that  could  be  classed  as  "scalawags,"  or  inferior,  or  of 
light  weight,  and  we  suppose  that  no  herd  so  large  would  be  without  as 
many.  If  the  cattle  which  we  saw  were  a  fair  sample  of  the  cattle 
which  have  been  delivered  to  the  Indians  of  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted 
Tail  agencies  during  the  last  three  years,  the  Indian  and  his  friends 
have  little  cause  to  complain ;  and  we  earnestly  wish  that  all  the  labor 
ing  people  of  the  country  could  be  as  well  and  as  liberally  supplied. 

The  P'oreman  contract  for  1874-'75  covers  six  agencies  as  before  stated, 
and  it  appears  that  there  were  delivered  the  following  cattle : 


Agency. 

Number  of 
head. 

Pounds 
gross. 

Amount. 

General 
average. 

Yank  ton  

1   120 

1   021  208 

$23  491  41 

QUfl}& 

Crow  Creek  

1   935 

1  737  (iOO 

39,956  79 

897i^,'f 

Standing  Rock  

5  041 

4  91  1  630 

112  983  38 

974if;3f 

Cheyenne  

3  959 

4  008  545 

92  209  90 

1012fJH$ 

Spotted  Tail  .  . 

7  387 

7  350  786 

182  683  59 

995 

Red  Cloud  

9  423 

9  576  983 

249,529  41 

101(52^5 

Total  

23  8(35 

28  606  152 

$700,854  48 

average  weight  on  whole  contract  being  911,937^. 
At  the  request  of  the  commissioners,  Mr.  Bosler  presented  for  their 


XXXII 

private  use  an  abstract  from  his  books  for  that  year.  The  commission 
ers  feel  themselves  justified  in  extracting  from  it  so  much  as  shows  his 
purchases  of  cattle.  The  total  number  was,  of  beeves,  22,225  ;  and  of 
cows,  7,605 ;  making  a  total  of  20,890. 

There  can  be  little  doubt  that  Mr.  Bosler  bought  for  filling  this  con 
tract  the  large  number -of  29,880  head,  of  which  he  delivered  28,885 
head;  showing  a  loss  of  995  head. 

This  abstract  furnishes  us  with  the  exact  cost  of  every  animal,  the 
cost  of  herding,  and  all  incidental  expenses,  including  interest  on  the 
capital  invested,  and  the  net  receipts  on  the  contract.  We  find  from  the 
testimony  of  numerous  witnesses  familiar  with  the  subject,  that  the 
prices  shown  by  said  abstract  to  have  been  -paid  for  these  cattle  were 
the  ruling  prices  in  that  country  during  that  year.  It  appears  from  all 
sources,  and  there  is  no  dispute  upon  the  point,  that  during  the  spring 
and  summer  of  1874  the  market-price  of  through  Texas  cattle  delivered 
on  the  Platte  was,  for  cows,  from  $10.50  to  $12  per  head  ;  and  for  beeves, 
from  $10  to  $18  per  bead.  It  should  also  be  stated  here  that  the  first 
contract  was  for  22,500,000  pounds  of  beef,  at  $2.30 Jg-  per  hundred  pounds, 
and  that  after  that  amount  bad  been  furnished  the  contractor  was  called 
upon  to  furnish  25  per  cent,  in  excess  of  that  amount,  as  his  contract 
provided  he  should  do  upon  proper  notice.  But  the  notice  was  not 
given,  as  it  should  have  been,  in  season  to  enable  the  contractor  to  pur 
chase  the  required  amount  at  the  ordinary  market-rates,  but  at  a  time 
when,  his  own  stock  having  been  exhausted,  he  would  be  obliged  to  go 
into  the  market  and  obtain  the  required  supply  at  very  much  advanced 
rates.  He  claimed  that  the  notice  was  not  given  in  season,  and  refused 
to  comply  with  the  request.  His  position  was  deemed  to  be  tenable  and 
legal.  Under  the  stress  of  these  circumstances  a  new  contract  was  en 
tered  into  March  17,  1875,  with  the  approval  of  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners,  by  which  he  agreed  to  furnish  the  additional  amount  re 
quired  at  $3  per  hundred  pounds.  Under  these  two  contracts  28,805 
head  of  cattle  were  furnished,  weighing  28,000,152  pounds.  It  has  been 
shown  heretofore  that  the  average  weight  for  the  year  was  991  pounds. 
It  would  require,  therefore,  to  fill  the  first  contract,  22,704  cattle  or 
thereabouts,  disregarding  fractions,  and  0,101  to  fill  the  second  contract. 
If  we  assume  that  the  cattle  furnished  were  one-fourth  cows  and  three- 
fourths  beeves,  and  that  the  price  for  cows  and  beeves  furnished  un 
der  the  first  contract  was — cows,  $12,  and  beeves,  $18,  and  that  for  all 
cattle  furnished  under  the  second  contract  the  contractor  paid  an  average 
of  $20  per  head,  which  from  evidence  in  our  possession  is  probably  near 
ly  correct,  we  have  the  means  of  determining  the  probable  cost  of  the 
cattle  to  the  contractor.  If,  as  seems  to  be  true,  the  cost  of  herding  is 
$2  per  head,  allowing  the  contractor  interest  on  his  investment  for  one- 
half  the  year  at  ten  per  cent.,  we  have  all  the  means  necessary  to  de 
termine  the  probable  net  profits  on  the  contract,  and  the  account  may 
be  stated  as  follows,  viz  : 

5,070  cows,  at  $12    , $08,  112  00 

17,028  beeves,  at  $18 300,  504  00 

0,101  cattle,  at  $20 c 123,  220  00 

Cost  of  herding,  at  $2  per  head 57,  730  00 

Total  investment .-....• 555,  500  00 

Interest  on  investment,  six  months,  at  ten  per  cent 27,  778  30 

Total  cost 583,  344  30 

Net  profits 117,  510  18 

Total  cost  to  the  Government 700,  854  48 


XXXIII 


With  full  compliance  with  the  contracts  of  1874-'75,  we  are  satisfied 
from  all  the  evidence,  that  the  above  sum  of  $117,510.18,  at  least,  was 
possible  as  net  profit  to  the  contractor,  assuming  that  he  lost  by'acci- 
deut,  disease,  and  Indian  raids  095  head,  which  is  the  number  purchased 
by  him  in  excess  of  what  he  turned  over  and  was  paid  for,  and  which 
were  lost  by  him.  This  would  seem  to  dispose  of  the  question  as  to  the 
number  of  cattle  delivered  by  the  contractor.  When  we  come  to  con 
sider  the  weight  of  the  cattle  delivered,  we  are  met  with  the  remarka 
ble  fact  that  the  average  weight  for  the  year  at  each  of  the  six  agencies 
is  very  nearly  the  same,  or  that  the  difference  is  but  slight  arid  ac- 


ence  of  105  pounds.  At  Standing  Eock,  974  pounds,  a  difference  of  43 
pounds.  At  Crow  Creek,  898,  a  difference  of  119  pounds.  At  the  Crow 
Creek  agency,  December  23, 1874,  as  appears  on  page  374,  770  head  of 
cattle,  averaging  777  pounds,  were  delivered.  It  is  in  evidence  that 
these  were  small  cattle,  intended  for  grazing,  and  constituted  the 
largest  herd  delivered  there  during  the  year,  and  greatly  reduced  the 
average  at  that  agency — the  other  four  averages  for  that  year  at  that 
agency  being,  respectively,  1,045,  930,  9CO,  and  1,005  pounds.  It  is  also 
in  evidence  that  at  the  Yanktou  and  Standing  Eock  agencies,  smaller 
cattle  were  generally  preferred  by  the  agent.  It  is  also  in  evidence  that 
the  best  feeding-ground  for  cattle  is  on  the  Platte  Eiver,  which  accounts, 
in  a  measure,  for  the  difference  in  the  weight  of  herds  delivered  at  Eed 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail,  as  compared  with  those  delivered  at  Yanktou, 
Crow  Creek,  and  Standing  Eock. 

It  is  apparent  from  these  facts  that  if  great  frauds  in  weight  have 
been  perpetrated  at  Eed  Cloud,  similar  frauds  must  have  been  perpe 
trated  at  all  the  other  agencies ;  and  to  assume  this  requires  that  we 
should  find  as  a  fact  that  all  these  six  agents,  their  clerks  and  assist 
ants,  the  contractor  and  his  associates,  assistants,  and  herders  were 
combined  and  confederated  and  actuated  by  a  common  purpose  to  choat 
both  the  Indians  and  the  Government,  and  all  shared  directly  or  indi 
rectly  in  the  benefits  of  the  fraud.  It  maybe  in  accordance  "with  the 
current  of  present  popular  feeling  to  adopt  this  conclusion,  but  dealing, 
as  we  are,  with  proofs,  we  are  forced  to  say  that  the  facts  do  not  sup 
port  it. 

It  has  been  asserted  by  witnesses  of  much  intelligence  and  undoubted 
honesty,  that  the  presumption  of  fraud  was  justified  by  the  very  low 
price  at  which  the  contract  was  taken  this  year — $2.46J  per  100 
pounds — and  that  no  man  could  honestly  fill  the  contract  without  loss ; 
but  we  think  the  evidence  printed  herewith  demonstrates  that  the  con 
trary  is  true,  and  that  a  very  large  profit  may  be  legitimately  realized. 

We  have  previously  seen  that  a  herd  of  nearly  6,000  cattle  is  being  this 
year  delivered  to  the  agencies,  which  actually  average  more  than  1,000 
pounds  each.  These  cattle  were  bargained  for  in  April  last,  while  on 
their  way  to  the  Platte  Eiver,  at  $12  per  head  for  cows  and  $20  per  head 
for  beeves.  Not  more  than  one-fourth  of  them  were  cows.  The  con 
tract  for  this  year  is  for  32,500,000  pounds  of  beef  for  the  Sioux  agen 
cies.  If  we  assume  that  32,500  head  of  cattle  will  be  required  to  fill 
the  contract,  we  have  the  following  result : 

8,125  cows,  at  $12 , $97,  500 

24,375  beeves,  at  $20 487,  500 

3  I  F 


XXXIV 

Cost  of  herding  32,500  head  of  cattle,  at  $2 $65,  000 

Total  investment. .  $650,  000 


Interest  on  one-half  amount  at  10  per  cent $32,  500 

Total  cost $682,  500 

Thirty-two  million  five  hundred  thousand  pounds  of  beef  at  $2.46J 
per  100  pounds,  amounts  to  $801,125.  The  difference  is  a  net  profit  of 
$118,625. 

Under  the  contract  of  A.  H.  Wilder,  G.  M.  Dodge,  and  J.  W.  L. 
Slavens  for  furnishing  beef  for  the  Sioux  agencies,  for  1873-'75,  there  were 
furnished  to  the  several  agencies  the  number  of  animals  of  the  total 
weight  and  at  the  prices  herewith  named : 


Agency. 

Number 
of  head. 

Weight,  in 
pounds. 

Average 
Ibs. 

Amount  paid. 

Red  Cloud 

11,713 

11,843,635 

1,011 

$322,649  03 

AVhftstouo 

8,  058 

8,  129,  433 

1,009 

221,527  03 

Yankton       .........    

2,  299 

2,203,416 

958 

60,592  06 

Santee                          .   ...... 

627 

544,  185 

867 

15,033  09 

Cheyenne  River 

4,678 

4,  578,  495 

979 

126,478  81 

Crow  Creek  and  Grand  River  

9,314 

9,  172,766 

984 

250,414  43 

36,  689 

36,471,930 

994 

$996,694  45 

The  price  for  cows  that  year  was  about  $15,  and  for  beeves  $21. 
Making  use  of  the  rule  adopted  for  the  foregoing  calculations,  we  have 
the  following  results : 

One-fourth,  or  9,172  cows,  at  $15 $137,  580  00 

Three-fourths,  or  27,517  beeves,  at  $21 577,  857  00 

Herding,  at  $2  per  head 73, 378  00 


Total  investment 788,  815  00 

Interest  six  months  on  investment,  at  10  per  cent 39,  440  75 


Total  cost 828,  255  75 

Xet  profits 168, 438  70 

Total 996,  694  45 

This  sum  being  paid  to  the  contractors. 

It  will  be  seen  from  the  foregoing  that  with  a  faithful  compliance  with 
the  terms  of  the  contract  it  is  not  only  possible,  but  practicable,  to  realize 
profits  which  of  themselves,  and  without  the  hope  or  expectation  of  any 
illicit  or  fraudulent  gains,  are  sufficient  to  satisfy  the  cupidity  of  any 
ordinary  man,  and  to  justify  the  risk  and  labor  of  the  enterprise.  And 
it  will  assist  this  view  if  we  recall  the  fact  that  herders  in  that  country 
have  free  and  unrestricted  use  of  unexcelled  and  almost  boundless 
grazing  lands. 

It  is  conclusively  shown  by  the  printed  testimony  that  the  ordinary 
price  for  through  Texas  cattle  at  the  present  time  is  as  follows :  Full- 
grown  cows  are  $12,  and  oxen  and  steers,  four  years  and  upward, 
are  $20.  It  is  shown  that  for  cattle  one,  two,  and  three  years  old  the 


XXXV 

market  is  found  among  the  stock-raisers  of  Kansas  and  Nebraska,  who 
hold  them  in  the  country  until  they  are  full  grown,  thereby  getting  their 
increase  in  growth  and  flesh.  The  cows  are  kept  for  breeding,  and  the 
steers  and  oxen,  when  fully  grown  and  fattened,  are  shipped  to  Chicago 
and  the  eastern  markets  as  fat  beef. 

In  passing  it  will  be  proper  to  say  that  it  is  clearly  for  the  interest  of 
a  contractor  furnishing  beef  for  the  Indians  to  purchase  the  largest 
cattle  the  market  affords,  since  he  buys  by  the  head,  without  reference 
to  size,  and  sells  wholly  by  weight.  He  could  ill  afford  to  turn  in  young 
cattle,  costing  as  above,  if  the  larger  cattle  were  accessible.  As  Mr. 
Bosler  is  represented  as  a  very  shrewd  and  accomplished  business  man, 
it  can  hardly  be  supposed  that  he  fails  to  seek  the  cattle  which  will  yield 
to  him  the  largest  profit. 

In  addition  to  the  foregoing  evidence  upon  the  subject  of  weights,  the 
agent  and  his  clerk,  and  all  persons  familiar  with  the  facts,  declare  that 
during  the  years  in  question  all  cattle  have  been  received  and  receipted 
for  at  their  actual  weights  and  numbers.  Upon  this  subject,  also,  we 
have  the  testimony  of  cattle-dealers  and  men  of  experience  in  the 
trade.  Among  them  is  James  P.  Ellison,  of  Texas,  one  of  the  largest 
cattle-dealers  in  the  country.  He  testifies  as  follows,  (pages  521.  522, 
and  523:) 

I  sold  cattle  to  Mr.  Bosler  last  year.  I  sold  him  about  seven  thousand  head  last  year 
They  were  for  the  Indian  contract.  I  delivered  part  of  them  on  the  Platte  and  part  of  them 
on  the  Missouri  River  for  the  Indian  contract.  They  were  Texas  cattle,  cows  and  beeves  ; 
mostly  beeves.  By  beeves  I  mean  four  years  old  and  upward.  Anything-  under  that  would 
be  considered  stock-cattle  in  the  beef-market.  *  *  *  I  have  seen  a  good  many 
cattle  weighed,  and  I  would  estimate  those  cattle  which  I  delivered  to  Mr.  Boswell  last 
year  from  950  to  1,050  pounds,  making  a  full  average  of  1,000  pounds.  *  *  *  I 
never  sold  any  young  cattle  to  him,  because  I  had  contracts  for  young  cattle  with  other  par 
ties,  and  I  never  delivered  him  anything  but  cows  and  beeves. 

Mr.  D.  H.  Snyder,  of  Texas,  also  a  heavy  cattle-dealer,  testifies  as 
follows,  (pages  577  and  579  :) 

Q.  Did  you  ever  sell  Mr.  Bosler  any  cattle? 

A,  I  never  sold  him  many.  I  sold  him  about  1,500  in  the  spring  of  1873,  and  I  sold 
him  J750  last  year.  Most  of  the  stock  which  I  have  driven  here  has  been  the  class  of  stock 
which  was  better  for  grazing  than  that  which  he  could  pay  for,  and  was  younger  stock  than 
he  wanted.  The  class  of  cattle  I  sold  him  in  1873  were  beeves  and  cows,  three  years  old, 
and  in  1874  they  were  all  cows. 

Q.  Were  there  among  those  cattle  any  yearlings  or  two-year-olds? 

A.  No,  sir.  In  the  fall  of  1873  I  drove  the  cattle  on  the  range  and  wintered  them  ;  they 
were  beeves,  cows,  and  two-year-olds,  and  held  them  until  the  next  season.  He  refused 
to  take  the  two-year-olds.  We'  had  at  that  time  4,000  cattle  in  Idaho,  and  I  was  trying  to 
close  them  out  to  go  out  there. 

Q.  Could  you  form  an  estimate  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle  you  sold  him  in  1873,  and  of 
the  cows  in  !  874  ? 

A.  I  could  not  form  an  estimate,  because  I  did  not  see  the  cattle  at  all.  I  got  here  about 
the  middle  of  January,  and  George  Bosler  came  on  after  that ;  but  I  was  taken  sick.  After 
I  began  to  get  well  George  Bosler  came  in,  and  I  sold  him  the  cattle  while  sick  in  bed.  The 
cattle  were  in  good  condition,  but  I  could  form  no  estimate  of  their  weight.  I  saw  some  of 
the  cattle  which  were  left,  and  they  were  in  good  condition.  The  cattle  which  were  left 
were  young  cattle.  My  men  told  me  that  the  cattle  which  George  Bosler  got  would  make 
good  beef  It  was  the  first  year  which  we  had  wintered  cattle  here,  and  we  were  struck 
with  the  fact  that  the  cattle  had  done  so  well  here  in  the  winter — better  than  we  had  antici 
pated.  The  cows  I  sold  him  in  1874  were  a  good  square  lot  of  cows.  I  had  bought  a  lot  of 
cattle  and  sold  the  cows,  and  kept  the  younger  cattle.  I  suppose  the  cows  should  weigh 
about  850  pounds.  When  I  sold  them  they  were  just  off  the  trail.  They  were  a  superior 
lot  of  cows,  because  they  were  old  cows.  I  sold  them  in  August  or  September. 

Q.  What  would  be  your  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  beeves,  four  years  old,  and 
upward,  driven  from  Texas  here  and  delivered  on  the  Platte,  and  weighed  from  the  range  ? 

A.  That  would  vary  in  the  way  the  cattle  were  delivered.  In  other  words,  you  take  a  lot 
of  cattle,  handled  well,  and  they  would  average  better  than  others.  An  average  drove  would 
average  from  1,000  to  1,050,  and  that  depends,  too,  somewhat  upon  the  part  of  coun 
try  they  come  from.  If  they  came  from  Western  Texas  they  would  run  from  1,000  to  1,050. 
Get  them  from  the  extreme  eastern  part  of  Texas  they  would  not  weigh  more  than  UOO  pounds. 
But  there  are  no  cattle  driven  from  there  now. 


XXXVI 

Mr.  J.  W.  Iliff,  of  Denver,  a  stock-raiser  and  dealer  in  cattle,  also  tes 
tifies,  (page  582 :) 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  cattle  sold  to  Mr.  Bosler  for  the  Indian  agencies  ? 

A.  None  at  all  this  year.  I  saw  some  this  year  which  had  not  been  turned  over  yet,  but 
they  were  intended  tor  him.  They  were  Mabry's  and  Littlefield's.  I  saw  them  at  Ogalalla 
on  the  South  Platte.  I  saw  Mr.  Littlefield's  as  they  were  said  to  be  turned  over.  They 
were  coming-  on  the  road  to  be  turned  over  to  Bosler's  herd  on  the  way  to  the  agency.  I 
should  judge  there  were  in  that  herd  from  fifteen  hundred  to  two  thousand.  They  were 
all  steers,  I  think.  I  don't  remember  seeing  any  cows.  I  thought  the  general  appear 
ance  of  that  herd  was  very  good.  They  were  in  a  good  condition  to  have  come  through  from 
Texas.  I  remarked  at  the  time  that  those  cattle  were  in  a  better  condition  than  cattle  are 
generally  coming  through  from  Texas.  From  what  I  saw  of  that  herd  I  would  put  them 
above  the  average,  and  think  they  would  go  from  950  to  J  ,000  pounds.  I  give  this  as  my 
general  opinion,  without  having  examined  them  so  carefully  as  if  I  was  going  to  purchase, 
and,  therefore,  hesitate  somewhat  in  giving  this  opinion.  I  bought  of  Mabry  &  Millett  six 
thousand  young  cattle  out  of  their  herds,  one,  two,  and  three  years  old  steers.  The  larger 
cattle  or  steers  I  understood  would  go  to  Bosler. 

Mr.  Seth  Mabry,  the  person  in  whose  name  this  year's  contract  was 
taken,  and  one  of  the  largest  cattle-dealers  in  Texas,  who,  with  his  as 
sociates,  drove  to  that  market  60,000  head  of  cattle  this  year,  testifies 
as  follows,  (pages  527  and  528 :) 

Q.   Did  your  firm  sell  to  Bosler  some  cattle  last  season  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  We  sold  him,  I  think,  about  five  or  six  thousand  cattle — the  firm  of  Mabry 
&  Millett.  They  were  every  one  beeves  but  three  hundred,  and  I  sold  him  three  hundred 
cows.  They  were  every  one  four-year-old  cattle  that  J  sold  him  last  season.  I  have 
been  weighing  cattle  ever  since  I  have  been  here,  pretty  much  every  season.  Since  1866  I 
have  been  buying  and  selling  cattle.  The  weight  of  what  we  term  fresh  cattle  depends 
upon  the  way  you  weigh  them  The  rule  in  buying  here  is  to  lot  them  for  twelve 
hours  before  weighing  them,  then  they  would  weigh  considerably  less  than  if  weighed 
right  off  the  ranch.  If  they  were  to  be  weighed  that  way,  I  should  estimate  the  cattle  to 
weigh  from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  pounds  to  ten  hundred  and  fifty,  just  owing  to  where  those 
cattle  came  from  in  Texas.  When  you  get  west  of  the  San  Antonio  River,  and  go  into  the 
mountain  region,  the  cattle  are  very  large — from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  to  ten  hundred  and 
fifty,  weighed  right  off  the  ranch.  I  have  no  hesitancy  in  saying  so,  for  the  reason  that  I 
filled  those  contracts  in  1871  on  the  Missouri,  and  I  had  a  hard  time.  The  weight  of  my 
beef-cattle  averaged  a  good  deal  more  than  a  thousand  pounds  all  the  way  through.  In  the 
fall — in  September,  October,  and  November — there  were  a  good  many  of  these  cattle  that 
weighed  as  high  as  thirteen  hundred  pounds,  and  in  the  spring  they  ran  down  to  seven  or 
eight  hundred  ;  that  is,  the  cattle  furnished  for  the  Yankton  and  Sautee  Indians.  I  have  no 
hesitancy  in  saying  that  in  this  county,  in  ordinary  seasons,  the  same  grade  of  cattle  would 
weigh  from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  to  ten  hundred  and  fifty  pounds.  I  think  the  difference 
between  lotting  them  for  twelve  hours  and  weighing  them  off  grass  and  water  would  be 
seventy-five  pounds. 

******* 

Q.  Where  did  you  deliver  the  cattle  you  sold  last  year  to  Bosler  ? 

A.  I  delivered  most  of  them  up  here  for  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  think  I  delivered  three 
thousand  here  and  three  thousand  on  the  Missouri  River,  on  what  is  called  ''Sugar  Creek,"  on 
the  west  side,  for  all  those  agencies  on  the  Missouri  River.  We  sold  the  Boslers  this  year 
about  twenty-four  thousand.  I  delivered  the  biggest  portion  of  them  here  on  the  Platte  for 
these  two  agencies,  Spotted  Tail  and  Red  Cloud  ;  about  twelve  thousand  here  and  the  rest 
at  the  other  agencies. 

As  further  evidence  bearing  upon  the  question  of  the  actual  weight  of 
the  cattle  delivered  during  these  years  it  may  be  well  to  refer  to  the 
reports  of  the  several  investigators  who  have  preceded  us.  Mr.  Samuel 
Walker,  who  in  a  manner  investigated  the  affairs  of  Ked  Cloud 
agency  within  ninety  days  after  Dr.  Saville  took  possession,  before  any 
buildings  had  been  completed,  and  when  the  Government  property  and 
Indian  supplies  were  piled  up  on  the  prairies,  covered  only  with  'paulins, 
states  in  his  report  that  "on  the  18th  of  ^November,  1873, 410  beeves,  av 
eraging  907  pounds,  were  received  and  issued.'-  As  he  states  that  he 
was  present  and  assisted  in  the  weighing  of  this  herd,  we  may  receive 
this  as  a  fact  proved  by  his  testimony. 

The  report  of  the  commission  of  which  Bishop  Hare  was  chairman, 
made  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  in  April,  1874,  which  will  be  found 


XXXVII 

printed  at  page  807,  says,  in  reference  to  the  subject  of  beef,  (page  816  :) 
u  The  commission  took  particular  pains  to  inquire  into  the  quality  and 
weight  of  the  beef  furnished  by  the  contractor  during  the  current  fiscal 
year.  The  testimony  of  many  witnesses  and  the  personal  observation  of 
the  members  of  the  commission  convince  them  that  the  cattle  have  been 
remarkably  excellent  in  quality,  size,  and  condition,  and  that  their  aver 
age  weight  has  been  on  the  whole  considerably  above  that  required  by 
the  contract.7'  The  high  character  of  the  gentlemen  who  composed  that 
commission  renders  their  testimony  of  great  value  and  importance. 

In  the  September  following,  Indian  Inspector  J.  D.  Bevier  made  a 
thorough  inspection  of  affairs  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency.  His  report  is 
printed  in  full  at  page  819.  In  that  report  he  says,  (page  820 :) 

In  this  connection  it  is  but  fair  to  say  that  the  herd,  spoken  of  as  the  best  ever  brought 
into  the  State  of  Nebraska,  I  found,  as  far  as  I  could  judge,  as  good  as  could  be,  nearly 
uniform  in  size,  steers  said  to  be  from  four  to  eight  years  of  age,  all  in  good  condition.  There 
were  a  few  cows,  but  as  they  are  sold  by  weight,  and  always  preferred  by  the  Indians,  I 
know  of  no  objection  to  them. 

Dr.  Bevier  came  before  the  commissioners,  and  upon  this  point  de 
clared  his  report  to  be  "  strictly  true."  To  the  charges  made  by  Mr. 
Walker  replies  were  made  in  writing  by  Agents  J.  J.'Saville  and'E.  A. 
Howard,  which  are  printed  on  pages  822  and  844. 

We  have  thus  far  called  attention  to  the  testimony  going  to  sustain 
the  theory  that  all  the  beef  receipted  for  was  actually  received  by  the 
agent.  The  testimony  tending  to  sustain  an  opposite  theory  and  the 
charges  of  Professor  Marsh,  though  of  a  different  character,  merits  care 
ful  attention.  Professor  Marsh  says,  in  stating  his  own  personal  knowl 
edge,  (page  12 :) 

On  the  morning  of  November  14,  while  I  was  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  Mr.  Bosler,  one 
of  the  contractors,  brought  to  the  agency  a  herd  of  several  hundred  head  of  Texas  cattle, 
the  first  that  had  been  received  for  some  weeks  previous.  This  lot  was  accepted  by  the 
agent  and  receipted  for,  but  he  only  weighed  a  portion  of  the  herd.  These  cattle  I  saw  and 
carefully  examined.  Maj.  A.  S.  Burt,  of  the  Ninth  Infantry,  who  commanded  the  escort 
to  my  expedition,  was  with  me  at  the  time  and  also  examined  them  with  care.  They  were 
the  poorest  lot  of  Texas  cattle  I  have  ever  seen  during  all  my  experience  in  the  West,  where 
I  have  seen  many  hundreds  of  herds,  at  various  points  between  this  agency  and  Southern 
Kansas,  and  have  myself  purchased  many  animals  for  the  use  of  my  expeditions.  All  the 
cattle  in  this  herd  were  wretchedly  gaunt  and  thin,  and  the  majority  of  them  were  small, 
many  being  yearlings.  A  large  number  were  of  the  kind  known  among  cattle-men  as 
"scalawags,"  and  not  a  few  were  weak  and  decrepit.  I  noticed  the  character  of  these 
cattle  particularly,  because  the  beef  issued  at  this  agency  had  been  the  subject  of  several 
conversations  between  Red  Cloud,  General  Bradley,  and  myself,  and  I  was  desirous  of 
knowing  with  certainty  whether  the  statements  of  the  chief  on  this  point  were  true.  In 
the  afternoon  of  the  same  day  that  the  cattle  were  received,  November  14,  I  witnessed,  in 
company  with  Maj.  A.  S.  Burt,  the  issue  of  beef,  when  a  large  portion  of  these  cattle  were 
delivered  to  the  Indians.  This  delivery  was  made  from  the  agency  corral,  and  the  cattle 
were  turned  out,  a  small  number  at  a  time,  to  the  chiefs  or  headmen,  who  were  waiting 
with  their  mounted  young  warriors  to  pursue  and  kill  them.  I  watched  this  issue  with 
much  interest  from  first  to  last,  and  saw  every  one  of  the  cattle  that  were  turned  over  to  the 
Indians,  as  well  as  the  remainder  of  the  herd  retained  for  a  subsequent  issue.  I  am  con 
fident  that  the  average  weight  of  this  herd  was  not  more  than  750  pounds,  and  this  I  regard 
as  a  liberal  estimate. 

The  same  statement  in  substance  was  made  by  him  in  various  parts 
of  his  testimony,  which  accompanies  this  report.  Had  the  Professor 
been  present  at  the  corral  an  hour  or  two  earlier  on  the  day  of  the  issue 
and  observed  the  actual  weight  of  the  cattle,  he  would  have  escaped  the 
possibility  of  error,  and  we  should  now  have  the  means  of  settling  this 
question  without  the  liability  of  mistake.  As  it  is,  we  must  de 
termine  it  upon  the  preponderance  of  testimony.  We  present,  also,  the 
testimony  of  the  different  persons  who  saw  the  herd  which  was  delivered 
on  the  14th  November,  who  may  be  supposed  to  have  no  personal 
interest  in  the  subject ;  and  it  will  be  interesting  to  notice  how  differ- 


XXXVIII 

ently  different  persons,  who  were  present  at  the  time,  with  equal  oppor 
tunities  for  observation,  viewed  the  matter.  Mr.  I.  W.  French,  of 
Cheyenne,  who  saw  the  cattle  weighed,  and  watched  the  issue  to  the 
Indians,  testifies  as  follows,  (page  1-C1 :) 

A.  *  *  *  I  was  there,  (it  was  on  the  14th  of  November,  the  same  time  that  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  was  there, )  sitting  in  a  buggy. 

Q.  Did  yon  see  the  cattle  f 

A.  I  did,  sir ;  I  saw  them  in  the  corral,  and  as  they  left  the  corral,  and  saw  some  of  them 
shot, 

Q.  What  could  you  say  of  them  ? 

A.  I  could  only  say  I  was  a  good  deal  surprised  at  the  report  in  the  New  York  papers,  and 
the  report  that  Professor  Marsh  made  ot  the  cattle  being  poor,  a  scrubby  lot  of  cattle.  They 
did  look  to  me  at  that  time,  while  in  the  corral,  a  little  ragged,  from  the  fact  that  it  was  a  stormy 
day.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  rain  and  snow  on  them,  and  the  hair  was  wet,  and  their 
frames  were  more  prominent  than  they  would  have  otherwise  looked,  and  they  did  look  a  little 
gaunt;  but  I  didn't  consider  that  as  anything  particular;  they  had  not  had  any  water, 
probably,  for  some  hours,  but  the  average  condition  I  thought  was 

Q.  What  as  to  weight  or  size  ?     Do  you  know  anything  about  the  weight  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  am  not  a  judge,  particularly,  not  sufficient  to  average  a  herd  of  cattle  within  fifty 
or  a  hundred  pounds  in  each  head  of  cattle. 

Q.  You  say  to  "  average  "  them  ;  do  you  understand  that  to  be  the  system— that  the  cat 
tle  are  averaged  J? 

A.  No,  sir ;  you  speak  of  the  whole  as  a  unit,  as  I  understand  you. 

Q.  Yes;  1  had  asked  you  what  their  size  was.  What  was  the  heaviest  ox  you  saw  there, 
according  to  your  best  judgment  ? 

A.  Twelve  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  And  what  the  lightest? 

A.  I  should  not  like  to  put  my  opinion  against  anything  of  that  sort ;  I  didn't  give  it 
special  attention  ;  they  were  large  Texas  cattle  ;  had  very  large  horns,  and  I  regarded  them 
as  an  average  lot  of  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  were  fat  cattle  or  lean  ? 

A.  I  regarded  them  as  an  average  lot  of  cattle.  I  did  not  look  upon  them  as  stall-fed 
catile  or  very  poor — a  good  average  lot  of  cattle  for  that  time  of  year;  they  naturally  would 
be  good  at  that  time  of  year.  I  did  not  regard  them  at  all  as  an  especially  poor  lot  of  cattle, 
that  is,  poor  in  flesh. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  Professor  Marsh  on  that  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  considerable. 

Q.  Upon  the  subject  of  these  supplies  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  on  that  subject.  We  were  talking  bones  at  that  time  ;  he  was  a  bone 
sharp,  and  I  was  interested  particularly  with  him  in  getting  bones  for  him. 

Q.  But  in  reference  to  the  distribution  of  supplies  or  annuity  goods,  or  anything  else  upon 
the  subject,  did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  did,  any  more  than  he  was  expressing  himself  with  a  degree  of  sur 
prise;  it  was  the  first  time  he  had  ever  seen  anything  so  wonderful  as  what  he  was  looking 
at  at  that  time  there. 

Q.  Did  he  comment  upon  any  part  of  the  distribution  as  wrong  or  irregular? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  to  me  at  that  time.  He  didn't  seem  to  express  himself  that  he  was  dis 
covering  any  frauds  or  anything  of  that  sort  at  all. 

Jules  Ecoffee,  whom  Professor  Marsh  referred  us  to  as  a  reliable  man, 
testifies  as  follows,  (page  215 :) 

Q.  Do  you  remember  Professor  Marsh ;  did  you  ever  see  him  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  him  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  issued  at  the  time  he  was  there  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 
A.  They  were  over  the  usual  average. 

Q.  Would  those  cattle  you  saw  issued  on  that  occasion  average  1,000  pounds  all  round  ? 
A.  Well,  they  might,  but  I  don't  believe  they  would.     They  were  larger  than  those  they 
generally  issued. 

William  Rowland,  an  interpreter  for  the  Cheyenne  Indians,  testifies, 
(page  244 :) 

Q.  Were  you  here  in  November,  1874  ;   the  time  that  Professor  Marsh  was  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  pr  sent  at  the  issue  of  beef,  about  the  8th  or  14tli  of  November,  1874  ? 


XXXIX 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  been  at  every  beef  issue ;  I  guess  I  havo  not  missed  one  since  Ijhave 
been  here.  It  is  part  of  my  business  .to  be  here  to  interpret  for  the  Indians  in  receiving 
their  beef. 

Q.  As  you  have  seen  all  these  issues  of  beef,  generally,  were  the  cattle  issued  at^that  time 
of  similar  quality  to  those  issued  before  and  since? 

A.  Well,  yes  ;  I  don't  think,  the  way  the  beef  has  run,  as  a  general  thing,  (except  about 
two  issues  last  winter,  during  that  cold  weather,  when  it  was  a  little  thin  and  poor, )  that 
they  have  been  any  different.  Most  of  the  time  we  have  what  we  call  good  beef  here. 

Louis  Keshaw,  the  half-breed,  testifies  as  follows,  (page  4G7  :) 

Q.  Were  you  out  at  the  corral  ? 

A.  I  was  not  at  the  scales  ;  they  were  weighed  when  I  got  there,  I  guess  ;  I  guess 
they  must  have  been,  for  they  issued  them  right  out. 

Q.  Mr.  Reshaw,  what  kind  of  cattle  were  those  that  were  issued  on  that  occasion  ? 

A.  They  were  small  cattle ;  the  most  of  them  were  not  fit  for  beef. 

Q.  Have  you  had  experience  in  the  weighing  of  cattle,  so  that  you  could  give  an  estimate 
of  the  average  weight  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  could  not  do  it,  because  I  have  not  been  around  when  the  cattle  have  been  weighed. 

Q.  But  have  you  seen  other  cattle  weighed  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  big  beef-cattle  weighed. 

Q.  Well,  has  your  observation  among  cattle  been  such  that  you  could  state  something 
near  what  would  be  the  probable  average  weight  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  It  would  be  pretty  hard  for  me  to  say  that ;  I  could  not  very  well  te  1.  I  would  have 
to  guess  at  it ;  but  they  were  mighty  small  cattle. 

Q.  And  are  you  not  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  average  weight  of  such  cattle  as  to 
be  able  to  say  what  those  would  probably  weigh — to  hazard  an  opinion  on  the  subject '? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Major  A.  S.  Burt,  of  the  Mnth  Infautry,  stationed  at  Fort  Laramie, 
testifies,  (page  517 :) 

Q.  You  belong  to  the  Ninth  Infantry,  I  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir, 

Q  Major,  were  you  present  at  the  issue  of  cattle  by  the  Indian  agent  at  Red  Cloud 
agency  on  the  14th  of  November  last  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  the  date,  sir ;  but  I  was  present  at  an  issue  of  cattle  by  Dr.  Saville,  in 
November  last.  Professor  Marsh  was  with  me.  He  rode  down  there  with  me. 

Q.  There  is  a  certificate  made  by  you,  in  which  you  state  that  the  cattle  you  saw  at  that 
time  were  Texas  cattle,  miserably  poor,  some  of  them  so  weak  the  Indians  could  not  goad 
them  out  of  a  walk,  and  the  cattle  were,  as  a  rule,  small  in  size. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  remember  such  a  certificate  as  that. 

Q.  Can  you  form  any  estimate  of  the  number  of  cattle  in  the  herd  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  the  corral  was  full ;  there  was  barely  room  for  a  man  to  go  round  and  drive 
them  out  when  they  issued  them.  I  don't  know  how  many,  but  enough  to  make  an  issue 
at  that  agency.  I  don't  know  anything  about  the  number  so  as  to  fix  it  in  my  mind.  I  was  not 
there  as  an  investigating  committee,  but  simply  went  with  Professor  Marsh  to  see  the  is 
sue,  as  to  how  it  was  done.  I  did  not  fix  in  my  mind  any  number,  but  remember  the  condi 
tion  of  the  cattle  was  poor. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  they  were  in  miserable  condition  ? 

A.  I  mean  that  they  were  walking  skin  and  bones.  This  observation  applies  to  them  gen 
erally.  I  could  not  say  that  every  one  was  skin  and  bones  ;  but  my  general  observation  of 
the  cattle  was  that  they  were  mere  skin  and  bones ;  that  is,  very  poor. 

Q    Do  you  remember  whether  the  majority  were  steers  or  cows'? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not  tell  whether  they  were  or  not. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  of  them  being  so  weak  that  the  Indians  could  not  run  them.  About 
how  many  did  you  observe  in  that  condition  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say ;  but  that  fact  impressed  itself  upon  my  mind,  because,  as  you  remem 
ber  ,  the  Indians  slaughter  most  of  their  cattle  on  the  ground,  and  they  drive  them  out ;  and 
in  order  to  get  them  to  run  they  would  start  them  with  their  goads  ;  and  in  several  cases  they 
could  riot  make  the  cattle  go  out  of  a  walk,  and  the  impression  on  my  mind  was  that  it  was 
because  they  were  so  poor.  I  could  not  say  how  many  cases  of  this  kind  there  were.  I 
could  not  fix  any  number. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  far  these  cattle  had  been  driven  the  day  before  the  issue  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  these  cattle,  except  that  I  went  there  with  Pro 
fessor  Marsh,  simply  to  see  them.  I  did  not  know  how  long  they  had  been  without  ^food 
and  water.  The  weather  was  not  very  severe ;  that  is,  if  you  mean  for  the  cattle.  There 
was  no  snow  on  the  ground  that  day.  There  might  have  been  snow  in  the  gullies. 

Q.  Had  it  not  been  snowing  or  raining  for  one  or  two  days  before  f 

A.  It  could  not  have  been  bad  weather,  or  I  w^ould  have  noticed  it,  as  I  was  in  tents, 
did  not  see  these  cattle  weighed ;   I  don't  know  whether  they  were  weighed  ;  I  noticed  no 
scales  at  the  corral  for  weighing  cattle. 


XL 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  form  any  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  the  cattle  you  saw  there 
that  day  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot.  Nobody  can  do  that  unless  he  weighed  the  cattle.  I  did  not  do 
that. 

Major  T.  H.  Stanton,  who  was  also  present,  testifies  as  follows,  (pages 
553  and  557 :) 

Q.  You  are  paymaster  in  the  Army,  I  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Major,  were  you  at  Red  Cloud  agency  last  November  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  issue  of  beef  made  there  about  the  middle  of  November  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  see  the  beef-cattle  that  were  received  there  last  November  ? 

A.  I  saw  some  cattle  that  were  there.  I  saw  the  herd  which  came  up  to  be  issued  in  No 
vember. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  observe  that  herd  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Not  specially  or  particularly  ;  no. 

Q.  Could  you  say  of  the  beef-cattle  that  in  any  way  they  were  poor  and  thin  ? 

A.  Well,  they  looked,  some  of  them,  thin,  but  in  a  fair  condition. 

Q.  What  kind  of  weather  was  it  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Very  severe  cold  weather.     They  had  a  severe  snow-storm  while  I  was  there. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  weighed,  or  any  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  be  able  to  say  whether  those  cattle  were  of  average  size  or  not  ? 

A.  They  were  small,  thin  cattle,  that  were  issued  to  the  tribes  there,  I  remember. 

Q.  Were  they  as  large  as  those  of  the  ordinary  herds  of  Texas  beef-cattle  which  they  have 
n  this  country  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  should  say  they  were. 

*  »  *  *•  *  *  * 

Q.  Was  Major  Burt  present  with  you  at  the  time  you  saw  the  herd  of  cattle  driven  in  ? 

A.  I  think  he  was.  There  was  Major  Burt,  General  Bradley,  some  officers  from  the  post, 
and  Professor  Marsh. 

Q.  You  described  some  of  these  cattle  as  thin  in  flesh,  but  on  the  whole  as  fair,  in  a  fair 
condition? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  in  that  h?rd  which  could  be  designated  properly  as  walking 
skeletons  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

As  against  the  testimony  of  the  Fairbanks  scales,  used  to  weigh  the 
Battle  011  that  day,  the  conflicting  testimony  of  these  gentlemen — few, 
if  any,  of  whom  ever  saw  a  herd  of  cattle  weighed,  and  all  of  whom  are 
now  giving  opinions  formed  casually  and  incidentally,  and  with  no  anti 
cipation  of  ever  making  them  public — should  manifestly  be  received  with 
some  grains  of  allowance.  It  is  well  established  that  that  herd  was 
delivered  at  a  season  of  the  year,  of  all  others,  when  through  Texas  cat 
tle  are  usually  in  the  best  condition,  and  no  reason  appears  why  that 
particular  herd  should  be  walking  "skin  and  bone."  There  is,  how 
ever,  the  circumstance  that  the  weather  was  at  the  time  very  cold,  that 
it  had  been  snowing  for  two  days  and  one  night,  and  that  the  cattle  had 
been  deprived  of  food  and  water  during  that  time,  which  may  account 
for  their  appearance  and  excuse  some  of  the  extravagant  statements  of 
the  witnesses  above  quoted,  and  which  receive  no  countenance  from  the 
great  mass  of  the  evidence. 

The  testimony  of  Mr.  G.  M.  Bosler,  the  chief  herder,  on  this  point,  con 
firmed  by  many  oilier  witnesses,  is  as  follows,  (page  485 :) 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  were  you  present  at  the  delivery  of  cattle  at  Red  Cloud  agency  November 
14,  ]H74? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Professor  Marsh  at  or  about  that  time  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  the  Professor  at  the  delivery  of  the  cattle.  I  saw  him  afterward  at  the 
agency. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  the  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


XLI 

Q.  Was  it  on  the  same  day  as  the  delivery  of  the  cattle  that  you  saw  him  at  the  agency! 

A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  remark  to  you  or  in  your  hearing  as  to  the  condition  of  the  cattle? 

A.  No.  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  the  only  person  named  Bosler  who  was  present  at  this  delivery? 

A.   Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  statement,  on  page  25  of  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet  : 
"  The  cattle  of  this  herd  were  so  wretchedly  poor  that  even  the  contractor,  Mr.  Bosler,  deemed 
it  necessary  to  apologize  for  them."  I  want  to  ask  you,  did  you,  to  any  person,  make  any 
statement  respecting  the  condition  of  the  cattle  in  the  nature  of  an  apology,  or  explanation, 
or  excuse  ? 

A.  Major  Burt  came  to  me  and  asked  me  what  made  the  cattle  look  so  gaunt.  I  told  him 
we  had  driven  the  cattle  in  a  storm  for  two  days  and  one  night ;  that  they  had  neither  grass 
nor  water  during  that  time. 

Q.  Was  that  statement  to  Major  Burt  a  correct  statement  of  the  fact  in  the  case  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  was  merely  answering  the   question. 

Q.  What  was  in  other  respects  the  condition  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  They  were  good  cattle,  out  of  a  herd  of  3,000  head  like  those  you  have  seen  this 
morning. 

Q.  Were  they  as  good  as  those  we  have  seen  this  morning  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  were  fatter  cattle,  only  we  had  driven  them  for  two  days  and  a  night  in 
a  storm,  and  of  course,  snowing  all  the  time,  as  it  was,  it  made  them  look  rough.  They  had 
no  food  or  water  during  the  time. 

Q.  How  far  had  you  driven  them  ? 

A.  I  had  started  them  from  about  five  miles  below  here,  where  we  now  are  on  the  Nio- 
brara ;  that  is,  about  thirty-five  miles  from  the  agency. 

Q.  How  happened  you  to  be  so  long  driving  them  thirty  miles  ? 

A.  It  commened  snowing  on  the  morning  we  started  driving  the  cattle,  and  kept  snowing 
all  that  day  and  all  that  night,  and  the  next  morning  we  got  lost,  and  did  not  get  into  the 
agency  until  night. 

It  is  apparent  that  tlie  cattle  were  seen  by  Professor  Marsh,  Major 
Burt,  Major  Stanton,  and  the  others,  under  most  disadvantageous  cir 
cumstances;  and  it  is  more  charitable  to  all  concerned,  and  more  con 
sistent  with  the  facts,  to  conclude  that  they  were  misled  by  the  rough, 
gaunt  appearance  of  the  cattle,  arising  from  these  causes,  rather  than 
they  had  misrepresented  what  they  saw,  or  that  the  cattle  were  really 
44  walking  skin  and  bone."  But  Professor  Marsh  asserts  that  Dr.  Saville 
admitted  to  him  that  the  cattle  received  on  the  14th  of  November  did  not 
average  more  than  850  pounds,  and  that  this  admission,  in  connection 
with  the  undisputed  fact  that  Dr.  Saville  receipted  for  them  at  an  aver 
age  of  1,043  pounds,  is  conclusive  against  Dr.  Saville  and  fully  estab 
lishes  the  alleged  fraud.  This  admission,  fatal  to  the  reputation  of  Dr. 
Saville  for  honesty  and  integrity  if  true,  is  said  to  have  been  made  in 
Washington  in  May  last.  Professor  Marsh  states  the  admission  of  Dr. 
Saville  in  these  words :  "Agent  Saville  was  confident  that  these  cattle, 
thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh  850  pounds  on  an  average.  On  my 
questioning  this,  he  insisted  that  l  those  he  weighed  came  up  to  that 
average,  and  that  those  estimated  were  fully  as  large.  He  himself 
weighed  all  of  the  herd  that  were  weighed  in  the  morning  they  arrived.' 
Memoranda  of  these  statements  of  Agent  Saville  were  taken  down  at  the 
time  by  both  Bishop  Hare  and  myself,  and  at  a  subsequent  conference 
were  found  to  agree?'7 

The  attention  of  Dr.  Saville  was  called  to  this  statement  of  Professor 
Marsh,  and  he  testified  as  follows,  (page  394  :) 

Q.  In  the  same  connection,  Professor  Marsh  says  that  "Agent  Saville  was  confident  that 
these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh  850  pounds  on  an  average."  Did  you  make  that 
statement  to  him  ? 

A.  I  shall  have  to  explain  that  in  the  same  way,  by  recalling  what  was  said.  Bishop 
Hare  asked  me  if  these  cattle  would  weigh,  every  one,  1,000  pounds,  and  I  said,  "No :  they 
would  not,"  and  then  remarked  that  the  contract  did  not  require  them  to  be  1,000  pounds 
in  weight ;  and  he  asked  me  how  much  it  was,  and  I  told  him  850  pounds  ;  and  he  turned 
to  me  and  said  :  "  Did  these  cattle  average  «50  pounds  ?"  asking  a  general  explanation— 


XLII 

if  they  came  up  to  the  contract.  I  answered  him  in  three  words  :  "  Yes,  and  more."  Those, 
I  thiuk,  were,  the  exact  words  I  used 

Q.  Did  you  at  auy  time  claim,  in  that  conversation  or  any  other,  that  they  weighed  850 
pounds  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  fixing  the  amount ;  only  that  they  filled  the  contract. 

Professor  Marsh  having  appealed  to  Bishop  Hare  to  corroborate  his 
version  of  that  conversation,  we  examined  the  Bishop  fully  upon  the 
subject,  with  the  following  result. 

The  foregoing  extract  of  the  testimony  of  Dr.  Saville  was  read  to 
him,  and  then  the  question  was  put  to  him,  (page  606  :) 

Q.  I  ask  you  now  if  that  statement  accords  with  your  recollection  ? 

A.  I  would  omit.the  words,  ''and  more  ;"  but  if  I  was  put  on  my  oath  to  deny  that  he 
said  "and  more,"  I  should  prefer  not  saying  it,  because  it  is  merely  a  matter  ot  memory, 
and  a  man's  character  is  at  stake. 

Q.  Then,  Bishop,  how,  in  other  respects,  does  the  statement  agree  with  your  recollection? 

A.  Exactly. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  speaking  of  the  "  thousand  pounds  "  and  "  the  contract  ?'' 
A.  I  do. 

After  Bishop  Hare  had  testified  in  the  presence  of  Professor  Marsh, 
and  had  been  cross-examined  by  him,  and  after  Dr.  Saville's  statements 
and  testimony  were  known  to  Professor  Marsh,  he,  upon  his  re-exam 
ination,  testified  as  follows,  (page  97  :) 

Q.  Do  you  say,  Professor,  when  Saville  said  those  cattle  would  weigh  850  pounds,  that 
he  did  not  say  "  and  more  ?" 

A.  I  am  perfectly  confident  that  he  did  not  say  anything  of  that  kind,  and  that  he  did 
not  impty  it  in  anything  that  he  said. 

*  ****** 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether,  during  the  conversation  which  has  b  'en  referred  to,  any 
thing  was  said  about  the  cattle  corning  up  to  the  contract  weight? 

A.  I  won't  be  positive  on  that  point. 

Q.  Or  whether  the  fact  of  their  weighing  a  thousand  pounds  was  mentioned  ? 

A.  I  feel  sure  that  was  not  mentioned. 

Q.  Was  there  any  reference  made  to  the  contract  weights  of  850  pounds  in  the  summer 
and  1,000  in  the  winter  ?  Do  you  differ  with  the  Bishop  on  that  subject  ? 

A.  Since  the  Bishop's  statement  I  have  thought  that  over,  and  don't  recall  any  reference 
to  that ;  but  yet  it  may  have  been  said. 

Here  are  three  persons  endeavoring  to  detail  a  particular  conversa 
tion.  Bishop  Hare  and  Professor  Marsh,  to  whom  no  suspicion  of  im 
proper  motives  can  be  imputed,  do  not  remember  it  alike.  Bishop  Hare 
corroborates  Dr.  Saville  in  important  particulars,  and  in  those  same 
particulars  differs  from  Professor  Marsh.  He  can  hardly  be  said  to 
contradict  Saville  at  all.  In  this  confusion  we  can  only  determine  the 
truth  by  looking  at  the  probabilities.  Dr.  Saville  had  already  given  a 
receipt  to  the  contractor  for  these  cattle  at  an  average  of  1,043  pounds, 
which  had  been  paid,  and  which  he  knew  could  be  found  on  file  in  an 
hour  by  going  to  the  Auditor's  Office.  If  he  had  been  guilty  of  defraud 
ing  the  Government  to  the  extent  claimed  he  was  then  conscious  of  it, 
and  we  can  hardly  conceive  that  he  should,  under  such  circumstances, 
be  weak  enough  to  make  the  statement  ascribed  to  him  by  Professor 
Marsh,  which  is  in  the  nature  of  an  admission  of  his  own  guilt.  If,  as 
he  claims,  he  was  refuting  the  charge  of  Professor  Marsh  as  to  the 
cattle  being  small  and  poor,  and  was  claiming  that  they  were  fully  up 
to  the  contract  requirements,  he  not  having  then  before  him  and  not  re 
membering  the  weights,  his  statement  of  the  conversation,  in  part  cor 
roborated  by  Bishop  Hare,  seems  entirely  consistent  and  natural,  and 


XLIII 

it  should  be  remembered  in  this  connection  that  Professor  Marsh  was 
at  the  time  assailing  the  reputation  of  Dr.  Saville  for  integrity ;  that 
the  interview  became  angry,  Saville  accusing  Marsh  on  the  spot  "of 
seeking  to  make  a  case  of  fraud  against  him,  whether  true  or  not."  It 
is  not  impossible  that,  in  his  desire  to  bring  to  light  and  just  condemna 
tion  supposed  frauds,  he  may  have  unintentionally  given  a  construction 
to  the  language  of  Dr.  Saville  which  was  not  intended.  The  result  is, 
we  are  obliged  to  say,  that  the  evidence  fails  to  show  that  any  admis 
sion  was  made  or  intended  by  Dr.  Saville  to  the  effect  that  the  cattle 
delivered  on  the  14th  of  November  would  weigh  850  pounds  per  head 
and  no  more.  And  we  think  that  if  Bishop  Hare  and  Professor  Marsh 
so  understood  him  they  must  have  been  mistaken. 

Professor  Marsh  calls  attention  to  the  statements  of  Lieut.  W.  L. 
Carpenter,  contained  in  his  letter  to  the  Professor  of  June  22,  1875, 
concerning  an  issue  of  beef  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  May  4,  1875,  in  which 
he  says  "  that  the  cattle  then  issued  were  wretchedly  poor  and  about 
half  of  them  ridiculously  small ;  that  out  of  about  200  head  which  I 
saw  killed  at  the  time,  there  were  but  three  oxen  which  would  be  ac 
cepted  by  an  Army  commissary  for  issue  to  troops ;  there  were  many 
yearlings  in  the  herd  which  would  not  net  200  pounds  of  beef;  and,  to 
the  best  of  my  knowledge  and  belief,  the  entire  herd  would  not  average 
seven  hundred  and  fifty  pounds  gross  weight." 

This  statement  is  followed  by  the  certificate  of  Louis  Eeshaw,  but  we 
think  his  corroboratiou  weakens  rather  than  strengthens  the  statements 
of  Lieutenant  Carpenter.  We  have  seen  Mr.  Eeshaw,  and  are  satisfied 
that  he  is  capable  of  gross  misrepresentation  and  falsehood.  Lieutenant 
Carpenter  gives  it  as  his  opinion  only,  and  as  we  have  not  been  able  to 
see  him,  or  ascertain  the  extent  of  his  experience,  we  are  not  able  to 
determine  the  value  of  that  opinion.  From  the  favorable  terms  in  which 
he  is  spoken  of,  we  should  be  inclined  to  give  great  weight  to  any  state 
ments  that  he  might  make  concerning  matters  within  his  own  knowledge 
or  experience.  But  it  has  been  demonstrated  over  and  over  again  in 
this  investigation  that  the  estimate  of  men  not  thoroughly  familiar  with 
the  subject  concerning  the  average  weights  of  miscellaneous  herds  of 
cattle  are  very  unreliable.  We  have  noticed  that  most  of  the  Army  offi 
cers  estimate  gross  weights  lower  than  any  other  class  of  witnesses,  and 
yet  it  appears  that  the  Army  system  seldom  deals  with  gross  weights, 
but  with  net  beef  on  the  block,  and  the  Army  mode  of  determining  net 
weight  is  different  from  that  usually  practiced.  The  Army  contracts 
require  that  the  slaughtered  animal,  excluding  kidney,  tallow,  shank, 
and  brisket,  be  weighed  to  ascertain  net  beef,  and  to  determine  net 
weight  for  cattle  on  the  hoof  for  the  supply  of  a  moving  army.  The 
system  is  to  kill  a  few  average  cattle,  and  to  obtain  the  net  weight  by 
the  above  rule.  By  this  process  of  excluding  tallow,  kidney,  shanks, 
and  brisket,  from  fifty  to  seventy-five  pounds  per  head  is  lost  from  the 
net  weight,  as  usually  understood.  The  experience  of  Army  officers, 
therefore,  would  incline  them  to  estimate  cattle  on  the  hoof  at  less  than 
their  real  weight.  The  fact  that  the  price  paid  under  Army  contracts  for 
beef  in  that  neighborhood  is  much  higher  than  that  paid  for  the  Indian 
supply  is  in  part  attributable,  doubtless,  to  the  circumstance  that,  ac 
cording  to  Army  practice,  the  net  beef  bears  a  smaller  proportion  to  the 
gross  than  elsewhere. 

The  following  is  a  table  kindly  furnished  us  by  Maj.  John  P.  Haw 
kins,  commissary  of  subsistence,  U.  S.  A. : 


XLIV 


Abstract  of  contract-prices  of  fresh  bepf  and  beef -cattle  furnished  the  Subsistence  Department, 
United  States  Army,  in  the  Department  of  the  I'latte,  during  the  fiscal  years  ending  June  30, 
'74,  '75,  and  '76. 


Posts. 

1873-74. 

1874-'75. 

1875-76. 

jo  o_ 

•  s 

£& 

—  -^ 
*-  "£ 

Si 

,0 

It 

11 

*£ 

£  £ 

fe   A 

.2*5 

tj 

1* 

r 

,0 

l± 

fs 

§^" 

II 

Bridger  Fort  W.  T 

10* 

?! 

J01 

10* 
104 
6| 

6 
6 

8 
6.89 
4.89 
4.B4 
7.9 

91 

8 
6| 
5 

6 
8 
6.3 
4.89 
4.84 

12J 
9 
5.65 
6 
4.4 
7.9 
6.34 
5.73 
5f 
7i 

? 

6 
5.85 

8 
8 
14 
6.8 

7 
5 

5 
5 

7.9 
6 
6 

6 
5 

5.85 
6 
3i 
8 
5 

Brown  Camp  W  T 

Cameron  Fort  II  T 

Cheyenne,  W.  T  

7.12 

7f 

5  grogs 

Douglas  Camp   U.  T 

Fetterman,  Fort,\V.  T  

7.12 
7.12 
5.94 

5.88 
8V,« 

5  gross 
5  gross 
5.  75  net 
5.  75  net 

Laramie,  Fort  W  T 

McPherson,  Fort,  Nebr  

North  Platte.Nebr 

Omaha,  Nebr  

Omaha  Barracks,  Nebr  
Uobinson,  Camp,  Nebr  

«Vl6 

7.9 
91 

6.25 
5.72 

n 

6.5 
164 

6.95 

9* 
5.25 

$ 

8 

4 

Russell,  Fort  D.  A  ,  W  T 

7.12 
7.12 

5  gross 
5  gross 

Sanders,  Fort,  W.  T  

Sheridan  Camp  Nebr 

7.4 

m 

7.  12 

7  net 
9  net 

5  gross 

Stambaugh  Camp    W  T 

Steele,  Fort  Fred.,W.    T  

I  certify  that  the  above  abstract  is  correct. 

(Signed)  JOHN  P.  HAWKINS, 

Major  C.  8.,  U.  8.  A. 

It  appears  by  the  foregoing  abstract  that  the  price  for  beef  at  Camp 
Robinson,  one  and  one-half  miles  only  from  Red  Cloud,  is  eight  cents 
per  pouud|for  fresh  beef,  net,  on  the  block,  and  for  beef-cattle  per  pound, 
net,  six  cents. 

That  the  Government  is  getting  its  supply  of  beef  for  the  Indians  at  a 
rate  much  below  that  for  the  Army  sufficiently  appears,  and  yet,  even 
from  the  herds  furnished  at  Red  Cloud,  some  beef  has  been  delivered 
good  enough  for  Army  use. 

Julius  A.  Green,  the  post-butcher  at  Camp  Robinson,  testifies  that 
the  herds  of  cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  were  mostly  steers,  but  very 
few  cows  among  them,  and  that  take  them  all  through  they  weigh 
more  than  the  cattle  received  at  the  post,  and  gives  as  the  reason  for 
the  fact  that  he  killed  a  good  many  two-year  old  cows  for  the  use  of  the 
post.  He  also  says,  speaking  of  the  herds  coming  to  the  agency : 

Last  winter  the  cattle  in  this  country,  the  Texas  cattle,  fell  away  a  great  deal.  Last 
spring  they  got  thin.  I  only  saw  one  herd  here  which  was  thin.  That  was  last  spring. 
The  rest  were  all  good. 

Possibly  the  herd  here  referred  to  was  the  one  seen  by  .Major  Stanton. 
Mr.  Green  also  says  : 

Q.  You  remember  an  occasion  when  eleven  cattle  were  killed  by  the  Cheyennes  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  herd  were  they  killed  ? 

A.  In  the  post-herd.  They  were  taken  from  the  post-herd  and  dressed  at  the  Cheyenne 
camp.  Dr.  Saville  made  them  good  afterward,  and  allowed  me  to  select  eleven  from  the 
agency  herd.  I  selected  eleven  of  the  fattest,  but  not  the  largest,  which  netted  450  pounds 
each  without  the  shanks,  tallow,  kidney,  or  brisket,  but  with  those  they  would  neA  about 
500. 

As  this  testimony  comes  from  a  practical  butcher,  connected  with 
the  Army,  it  is  significant  and  of  great  weight.  The  cattle  delivered 
in  May  last  were,  doubtless,  smaller  than  those  usually  delivered,  and 


XLV 

considerably  below  the  average.  They  were  receipted  for  at  9G5  pounds 
each.  These  cattle  were  turned  in  under  the  new  contract  made  neces 
sary  by  the  short  supply,  and  were  wintered  in  the  country  of  the 
Platte;  were  purchased  by  the  contractor  at  a  relatively  high  price, 
many  of  them  as  high  as  $25  per  head,  and  had,  doubtless,  suffered 
from  the  rigors  of  the  winter. 

While  Lieutenant  Carpenter's  statement  is  probably  generally  cor 
rect  as  to  the  condition  of  the  cattle  which  he  saw,  we  find  in  it  no  evi 
dence  of  fraud  either  upon  the  Indians  or  the  Government. 

During  our  investigation  we  were  informed  by  a  gentleman  of  high 
character  that  Dr.  Irwiu,  the  agent  of  the  Shoshone  agency,  informed 
him  in  the  fall  of  1873  cattle  were  delivered  to  him  by  Mr.  Bosler  upon 
the  contract  of  G.  M.  Dodge,  which  came  from  the  same  herds  as  those 
which  were  being  delivered  at  Bed  Cloud  and  Whetstone,  and  that  those 
which  he  received  weighed  only  800  pounds  each,  while  those  delivered 
at  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  were  receipted  for  at  an  average  of  more 
than  1,000  pounds.  On  returning  to  Washington,  the  Auditor  furnished 
us  with  a  copy  of  the  voucher  given  for  the  cattle  by  Dr.  Irwin,  which 
clearly  showTs  that  our  informant  misunderstood  the  Doctor,  for  instead 
of  800  pounds,  the  voucher  shows  the  weight  to  have  been  489  pounds 
net,  or  978  pounds  gross.  Its  effect  seems  to  be  to  confirm  the  correct 
ness  of  the  weights  certified  to  at  Eed  Cloud  rather  than  otherwise. 
The  facts  that  the  cattle  had  been  driven  two  hundred  and  fifty  miles, 
and  were  estimated  and  not  weighed,  will  account  for  the  slight  differ 
ence  assumed. 
•  The  voucher  given  by  Dr.  Irwin  is  as  follows  : 

Received  of  G.  M.  Dodge  for  the  United  States  Government,  at  the  Shoshone  and  Ban 
nock  Indian  agency,  Wyoming  Territory,  three  hundred  and  forty-nine  beef-cattle,  averag 
ing  four  hundred  and  eighty-nine  (489)  pounds  net.  Total  weight,  one  hundred  and  sev 
enty-five  thousand  five  hundred  and  fifty-one  (175,551)  pounds. 

JAMES  IRWIN, 
United  States  Special  Indian  Agent. 
SHOSHONE  AND  BANNOCK  AGENCY, 

Wyoming  Territory,  Sept.  30,   1873. 

The  Auditor  also  furnished  us  a  copy  of  the  account  upon  which  Mr. 
Dodge  was  paid  for  those  cattle  at  gross  wreight,  the  total  gross  weight 
being  351,102  pounds.  Price,  $3.90  per  100  pounds.  Total,  $13,092.98. 

Stampedes. 

The  subject  of  stampedes  may  be  dismissed  with  a  very  brief  notice. 
Professor  Marsh  asserts  that  it  is  a  "  fruitful  source  of  fraud,"  and  that 
it  "  appears  to  have  been  practiced  "  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  as  a  "  sys 
tem,"  at  least  since  the  present  agent  took  charge.  He  also  declares 
that  "  from  such  stampedes,  and  the  fraudulent  results  following,  both 
the  Indians  and  the  Government  have  suffered  great  losses." 

With  these  statements  as  our  only  guide,  we  were  little  prepared  for 
the  discovery  that  only  two  stampedes  had  occurred  since  Saville  took 
charge,  and  that  the  total  number  of  cattle  lost  in  consequence  was  but 
195 ;  yet  such  is  the  fact,  as  shown  by  evidence  which  is  not  disputed. 

On  the  9th  of  October,  1873,  in  the  midst  of  a  storm,  the  cattle  of 
the  agency  herd  were  frightened  by  an  Indian,  as  the  herders  stated, 
and  about  two  hundred  of  them  were  stampeded  and  scattered  over 
the  country.  .  As  the  agent  had  not  men  enough  to  hold  the  remainder 
of  the  herd,  and  at  the  same  time  recover  the  lost  cattle,  he  turned  over 
about  six  hundred  to  the  herd  of  the  contractor,  taking  his  receipt 
therefor,  and  then  sent  his  herders  to  hunt  up  the  strays.  In  the  course 


XLVI 

of  three  weeks  they  recovered  all  but  sixty-seven  head.  The  chief 
herder  was  considered  negligent  in  performing  his  duty,  and  was  found 
to  have  made  several  false  statements  about  the  matter  of  the  loss.  He 
was  in  consequence  discharged  by  Dr.  Saville. 

If  these  cattle  were  stampeded  by  the  Indians,  as  was  alleged,  they 
undoubtedly  secured  every  head  of  them,  without  waiting  for  the  for 
mality  of  the  agent's  permission;  and  it  is  more  than  probable  that  they 
did  so,  in  any  case,  as  they  have  an  invincible  objection  to  seeing  beef- 
cattle  running  at  large  about  the  country.  The  facts  were  duly  re 
ported  to  the  Indian  Bureau  b3T  Dr.  Saville,  and  we  find  no  blame  attrib 
utable  to  him  in  respect  to  any  part  of  the  affair. 

The  second  instance  of  a  stampede  occurred  on  the  7th  of  September, 
1874,  and  the  matter  is  fully  detailed  in  the  letters  and  affidavits  on 
page  443.  The  number  stampeded  was  284  out  of  a  herd  of  834.  Most 
of  the  cattle  were  found  to  have  returned  to  the  con  tractor's  herd.  The 
chief  herder,  McBratney,  believed  that  all  but  thirty-six  had  done  so, 
and  Saville  wrote  to  the  Indian  Office,  page  443,  as  follows  :  u  While  I 
have  not,  and  cannot  get,  the  positive  evidence  that  the  whole  number 
of  cattle  lost  entered  the  contractor's  herd,  yet  the  circumstantial  evi 
dence  leaves  scarcely  a  doubt  that  they  did  so." 

Mr.  Bosler  claimed  that  no  trace  could  be  found  of  the  return  of  more 
than  150,  and  that  number  was  subsequently  returned  to  the  agency 
and  deducted  on  the  receipt  given  to  the  contractor  by  Saville.  The 
course  taken  by  Dr.  Saville  precludes  the  possibility  of  any  collusion 
with  the  contractor  in  this  affair,  and  relieves  him,  in  our  opinion,  from 
every  just  suspicion  of  wrongful  act  or  purpose.  Of  the  remaining  134 
head,  6  were  recovered  or  accounted  for,  leaving  a  net  loss  of  128.  If 
these  128  did  not  return  to  the  contractor's  herd,  the  Indians  doubtless 
received  the  benefit  of  them  ;  and  if  they  did  so  return  and  shall  not 
hereafter  be  accounted  for  in  his  settlement  by  the  contractor,  then 
they  were  a  loss  to  the  Indians  as  well  as  the  Government. 

The  question  has  remained  unsettled  up  to  the  present  time ;  but  in 
view  of  the  facts  that  all  the  trails  led  directly  towards  the  contractor's 
herd,  whither  the  cattle  would  naturally  have  gone,  that  there  was  no 
indication  given  by  the  Indians  of  their  having  picked  up  this  con 
siderable  number — as,  for  example,  by  an  increased  sale  of  hides — and 
the  difficulty  of  supposing  that  Mr.  Bosler's  herders  could  have  identified 
each  animal  that  had  returned  to  the  herd,  we  are  led  to  the  belief  that 
Dr.  Saville's  conclusion  was  correct. 

It  will  be  seen  by  Professor  Marsh's  testimony,  pages  103  to  105,  that 
his  statements  were  based  on  information  only,  and  not  on  personal  knowl 
edge.  The  information  we  find  to  have  been  incorrect. 

The  statement  in  Keshaw's  certificate,  page  16,  that  "  these  same 
cattle  were  afterwards  driven  to  the  agency,  and  were  receipted  for  the 
second  time  by  the  agent,"  has  not  a  shadow  of  foundation,  except  in 
the  fact  already  stated,  that  150  were  returned,  but  were  not  receipted 
forasecond  time.  Before  concluding  upon  this  branch,  we  deem  itour  duty 
to  say  that,  while  notwithstanding  our  careful,  and  as  we  think  thorough 
and  exhaustive,  investigation,  into  the  subject  of  the  supply  of  beef  to 
the  Sioux  Indians,  we  have  found  no  sufficient  evidence  to  justify  us  in 
coming  to  the  conclusion  that  fraud  has  been  committed  by  the  agent 
or  contractor  during  the  period  covered  by  our  inquiry,  yet  that  the 
present  system  is  one  which  we  cannot  approve.  It  cannot  be  doubted 
that  under  it  it  is  possible  for  corrupt  agents  and  contractors  to  combine 
and  to  successfully  defraud  the  Government  and  the  Indians. 

There  is  no  proper  check  for  the  prevention  of  fraud,  and,  indeed,  we 


XLVII 

think  the  system  invites  it.  This  is  so  apparent  to  every  observer  that 
it  may  naturally  give  rise  to  and  justify  suspicious  of  fraud  where  no 
fraud  exists. 

No  Indian  agent,  however  honest,  should  be  exposed  to  the  great 
temptation  laid  open  before  him  ;  nor  should  he  be  placed  in  a  position 
where,  however  he  may  resist  temptation,  and  however  honestly  he 
may  serve  the  interests  both  of  the  Government  and  of  the  Indians, 
and  act  up  to  the  highest  standard  of  morality  and  honesty,  he  may 
still  be  suspected,  and  run  the  risk  of  retiring  from  his  position  at  last 
with  empty  pockets  and  impaired  reputation. 

The  case  of  Dr.  Saville  is  in  point.  The  accusation  has  fallen  upon 
him,  not  because  he  has  stolen,  but  because  it  was  thought  that  he  had 
the  opportunity  to  steal.  We  think  that,  to  protect  the  Government 
against  fraud,  its  servants  and  agents  against  temptation,  and  honest 
men  called  to  the  public  service  from  unjust  suspicion  and  accusation, 
a  change  of  system  is  demanded. 

r  We  would  earnestly  recommend  that  from  the  Army  officers  stationed 
at  the  nearest  military  camp — who  are  already  under  the  pay  of  the 
Government — who  are  generally  men  of  education,  integrity,  and  com 
petent  skill,  with  no  arduous  duties  to  perform  in  time  of  peace,  an  offi 
cer  should  be  from  time  to  time  detailed  at  each  agency,  and  under  the 
direction  of  the  Commissary -General  of  the  Army,  to  inspect  and  accept 
or  reject  all  beef  offered  by  contractors  and  report  his  doings ;  that  the 
agent  be  allowed  to  receive  none  except  on  his  certificate,  and  that  no 
voucher  be  paid  that  does  not  bear  the  inspector's  signature  in  its  ap 
proval.  As  security  for  his  integrity,  we  have  the  known  high  sense  of 
honor  among  military  officers,  and  the  court-martial  for  all  delinquents. 

The  Morrow  contract. 

Professor  Marsh  presses  upon  our  attention  the  subject  of  the  Mor 
row  contract,  not  referred  to  in  his  letter  to  the  President,  and  the  al 
leged  double  payment  for  cattle  delivered  at  the  Grow  Greek  agency  in 
November,  1870,  to  the  amount  of  $16,000.  It  should  be  said  that  the 
fraud,  if  such  it  were,  occurred  before  the  present  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  came  into  office. 

It  appears  that  in  November.  1870,  Morrow  delivered  to  Agent  French, 
for  that  agency,  about  400  head  of  cattle,  for  which  French  gave  a  re 
ceipt  in  the  usual  form,  which  was  paid  in  the  February  following ;  that 
the  receipt  was  given  by  French  with  the  expectation  that  it  would  be 
held  as  a  memorandum — he  having  received  the  cattle  at  the  request 
and  for  the  convenience  of  the  contractor — and  with  the  intention  of 
drawing  from  the  herd  afterwards  cattle  as  he  might  need  them  for 
issue,  giving  vouchers  as  he  should  take  them ;  that  in  a  few  days 
French  was  superseded  by  the  present  agent,  Livingston,  and  that  in 
turning  over  to  his  successor  he  took  no  receipt  for  these  cattle  then  on 
the  range  with  the  agency  herd  ;  that  Livingston  afterwards  took  up 
cattle  from  the  herd  as  he  needed  them,  giving  Morrow  vouchers  for 
them,  upon  which  Morrow  a  second  time  was  paid;  that  these  cattle 
stood  charged  to  French,  and  in  1873,  when  the  final  settlement  of  his 
accounts  as  an  agent  was  reached,  he  found  himself  in  default  for  the 
amount  of  his  voucher  given  to  Morrow,  with  the  balance  really  duo 
him  from  the  Government  locked  up  in  the  Treasury.  Morrow  denied 
that  he  ever  received  his  pay  twice,  but  claimed  that,  owing  to  a  per 
sonal  difficulty  between  French  and  Livingston,  Livingston  refused  to 
receipt  for  the  cattle,  and  that  French  left  them  in  the  agency  herd  ; 


XLVIII 

and  tbat  white  men  and  Indians  helped  themselves  to  them,  and  that  they 
were  thus  lost  to  the  Government. 

There  is  evidence  tending  to  show  that  in  this  claim  Morrow  was  cor 
rect.  From  the  correspondence  found  at  the  Department  of  the  Inte 
rior,  it  is  certain  that  a  large  number  of  these  cattle  which  were  never 
issued  to  them  were  suffered  to  be  killed  by  the  Indians  and  others. 

Morrow  claimed  that  every  subsequent  receipt,  received  after  Novem 
ber,  1870,  represented  a  separate  actual  delivery,  and  it  appears  that  no 
duplicate  receipt,  or  receipt  representing  a  similar  number  of  cattle,  was 
ever  given  or  paid.  It  is  very  certain  that  French  and  Livingston,  one 
or  both,  neglected  their  duty,  and  that  from  that  neglect  the  difficulty 
arose. 

As  soon  as  the  matter  came  to  the  attention  of  the  present  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  he  instituted  a  thorough  investigation,  and 
caused  a  suit  to  be  commenced  against  Morrow  for  the  recovery  of  the 
price  of  the  cattle.  The  case  was  not  without  embarrassment,  for  the 
neglect  of  the  agents  was  manifest,  and  Morrow  claimed  to  be  able  to 
show  that  he  had  only  been  once  paid. 

It  was  finally  compromised,  Morrow  delivering  at  the  Crow  Creek 
agency  the  same  number  of  pounds  of  beef-cattle  as  was  represented  by 
the  voucher  of  November,  1870.  There  can  be  no  doubt  that  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  has  acted  with  judgment  and  discretion  in 
view  of  the  condition  of  the  parties,  and  the  embarrassments  of  the  case, 
in  the  compromise  which  he  has  effected,  with  the  approval  of  the  United 
States  district  attorney  for  Nebraska  and  the  Attorney-General  of  the 
United  States. 

PORK. 

Professor  Marsh's  statements  (testimony,  pp.  16, 17)  respecting  the 
pork  issued  at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  November  15, 1875,  were  carefully 
considered,  and  the  principal  facts,  we  believe,  were  fully  ascertained. 
These  statements  are,  in  substance  : 

1.  That  the  issues  were  made  in  a  careless  and  slovenly  manner. 

2.  That  some  of  the  pork  so  issued  vsas  unfit  for  food. 

On  the  first  point,  which  is  of  minor  importance,  except  as  it  is  al 
leged  to  furnish  a  characteristic  illustration  of  the  management  of  affairs 
at  the  agency,  it  may  be  sufficient  to  place  the  conflicting  testimony 
side  by  side.  Professor  Marsh  says  :  "  The  method  employed  in  dis 
tributing  this  article  to  the  Indians  was  characteristic  of  the  manage 
ment  of  affairs  at  the  agency. .  The  barrels  of  pork  were  rolled  out  of 
the  warehouse  by  one  of  the  employes,  the  heads  of  the  barrels  knocked 
in  with  an  ax,  and  the  contents  turned  upon  the  ground.  The  pieces  of 
pork  were  then  given  to  the  Indians,  who  were  waiting  for  it,  without 
being  weighed,  or  any  other  measures  being  taken  to  insure  a  just  dis 
tribution."  To  this  statement  Agent  Saville  enters  an  emphatic  denial, 
as  follows,  (testimony,  p.  383  :) 

This  is  a  fair  sample  of  the  willful  misstatements  throughout  all  these  charges.  Professor 
Marsh  saw  one  barrel  of  pork  rolled  out  to  a  band  which  was  large  enough  to  receive  two 
hundred  pounds.  By  their  request  the  barrel  was  knocked  open,  and  they  distributed  it 
among  themselves.  All  the  rest  of  the  pork  was  issued  inside  the  warehouse,  through  an 
opening  into  another  room,  into  which  the  Indians  come  to  receive  rations.  As  Professor 
Marsh  had  an  opportunity  of  going  into  the  warehouse  and  seeing  the  issue,  I  therefore  char 
acterize  this  statement,  as  far  as  it  represents  it  as  being  the  usual  manner  in  which  pork  was 
issued,  as,  to  say  the  least,  negligently  incorrect. 

Subsequently  (testimony,  p.  100)  Professor  Marsh  reiterates  the 
statement  that  he  saw  "  several  barrels,"  instead  of  one,  issued  in  the 
manner  he  described  ;  but  was  unable  to  say  whether  each  of  these  barrels. 


XLIX 

was  not  issued  to  a  particular  band  of  Indians  large  enough  to  be  entitled 
to  that  quantity,  and  then  the  heads  knocked  out  to  enable  them  to  divide 
it  among  themselves.  It  seems  more  than  probable  that  this  was  the 
case.  It  should  be  remarked,  also,  that  it  is,  in  the  present  state  of  feel- 
ingand  custom  among  the  Indians,  impossible  for  the  agent  todistribute 
articles  of  any  bulk  to  individuals.  They  insist  on  receiving  in  one  issue 
the  articles  designed  for  each  band  of  families,  and  the  distribution  is  then 
carefully  made  in  the  presence  of  them  all  by  some  authorized  or 
selected  member  of  the  band.  The  proceeding  is  a  rude  one,  but  sub 
stantial  accuracy  is  insured  by  the  watchful  oversight  of  the  persons 
most  directly  interested. 

With  regard  to  the  second  statement,  that  some  of  the  pork  was  unfit 
for  use,  the  testimony  shows  that  the  first  200  barrels  received  under  the 
Slaveus  contract  were  " mess"  pork,  in  perfectly  good  condition;  that 
of  the  600  barrels  afterward  furnished  a  very  little  (possibly  half  a  dozen 
barrels)  had  become  spoiled  in  transit  from  loss  of  brine,  while  all  the 
rest  were  sweet  and  sound.  It  consisted  largely  of  the  lean  portions  of 
the  animal,  and  was,  therefore,  on  account  of  the  habits  and  tastes  of 
the  Indians,  entirely  unfit  for  their  use.  All  the  evidence  goes  to  show 
that  Professor  Marsh  was  mistaken  in  supposing  the  pork  to  be  "old," 
or  that  any  considerable  portion  of  it  was  damaged.  Mr.  Armor,  of 
Chicago,  of  whom  it  was  purchased,  states  that  it  was  new,  and  in  per 
fectly  good  condition  when  shipped.  The  statement  quoted  from  Red 
Cloud,  that  he  believed  some  of  the  children  had  died  of  eating  the 
pork,  is  too  trivial  for  serious  notice.  It  is  evidently  one  of  those  child 
ish  and  irresponsible  complaints  which  Indians  in  general  (and  that  chief 
in  particular)  are  fond  of  making.  It  is  parallel  with  the  complaint  made 
to  us  by  one  of  the  Indians,  that  the  pork  was  spoiled  by  the  "water  in 
the  barrels,7'  and  with  the  statement  of  one  of  Spotted  Tail's  band,  that 
the  hill-sides  were  covered  with  the  graves  of  their  children  who  had 
died  from  eating  sugar.  They  have  little  knowledge  of  the  different 
modes  of  cooking  pork,  and,  in  general,  use  the  fat  portions  only.  In 
this  instance,  accordingly,  they  cut  off  the  fat  and  threw  the  rest  away. 
There  was  undoubtedly  great  waste  of  material,  but  any  subsequent  lack 
of  food  on  that  account  is  attributable  to  the  improvidence  of  the  Indians 
themselves,  and  not  to  the  conduct  of  the  agent,  who  appears  to  have 
acted  in  the  matter  promptly  and  effectively.  As  soon  as  his  attention 
was  called  to  the  waste  that  was  going  on  he  stopped  issuing  it,  reported 
to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  that  the  pork  then  being  deliv 
ered  to  the  agency  was  entirely  unfit  for  the  use  of  the  Indians,  and  "  was 
all  thrown  away,"  and  was  lying  "upon  the  ground  about  the  agency."  He 
recommended  that  it  all  be  "  thrown  upon  the  hands  of  the  contractor," 
and  requested  instructions  from  the  Office.  After  inquiry  on  the  part  of 
the  Commissioner,  an  arrangement  was  entered  into  with  the  contractor,  as 
will  be  presently  pointed  out,  under  which  the  remainder  of  the  pork 
was  distributed  to  the  Indians. 

While,  therefore,  in  regard  to  the  principal  charge,  we  find  no  evidence 
that  any  considerable  amount  of  the  pork  referred  to  was  otherwise  than 
sweet  and  wholesome,  the  proof  is  clear  that  it  was  of  an  inferior  grade, 
and  we  are  fully  convinced  that  it  was  furnished  in  pursuance  of  a  de 
liberate  and  premeditated  attempt  to  defraud  both  the  Indians  and  the 
Government.  The  facts  which  lead  to  this  conclusion  are  as  follows  : 
Under  date  of  May  28,  1874,  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  adver 
tised  for  proposals  to  furnish  1,000  barrels  of  "  mess  "  pork,  (which  is  the 
highest  of  the  five  grades  recognized  in  western  markets,)  delivered  at 
4  i  F 


Omaha.     Ou  the  2d  of  July  the  bids  were  put  in,  and,  on  being  opened, 
were  found  to  range  from  $21  to  822.05. 

The  bid  of  Mr.  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  Kansas  City,  Mo.,  being  the 
lowest,  the  contract  was  awarded  to  him  ;  but,  by  an  error  on  the  part 
of  the  clerk  who  tilled  it  out,  the  contract  was  made  to  call  for  "  pork" 
simply,  and  not  for  "  mess  pork."  It  appears,  however,  as  stated  by 
Mr.  Slavens,  that  between  the  date  of  the  bidding,  July  2,  and  the  date 
of  his  receiving  the  award  of  the  contract,  July  9,  the  price  of  pork  had 
advanced  to  such  a  figure  that  he  could  not  supply  it  without  loss.  He 
says,  (page  595:) 

The  price  of  pork  had  advanced  in  the  mean  time,  so  that  I  could  not  possibly  buy  it  at  the 
price  for  which  I  offered  to  furnish  it,  although  I  had  a  margin  at  the  date  of  the  letting  ;  and 
I  said  to  the  Commissioner  that  I  could  not  furnish  it  at  that  price,  and  that  I  would  not  ac 
cept  the  award  if  I  should  be  held  to  furnish  it  all  immediately  out  of  old  pork  ;  that  if  I  was 
only  required  to  furnish  it  from  month  to  month,  as  the  agency  needed  it,  through  the  year, 
then  I  could  get  even  on  the  new  crop  of  pork,  which,  as  a  rule,  the  United  States  over,  is  five 
or  six  dollars  lower  per  barrel  than  pork  is  before  the  new  crop  comes  into  the  market.  He 
said  that  would  be  all  that  would  be  required,  to  furnish  it  as  fast  as  the  agency  needed  it, 
and  with  that  understanding  I  accepted  the  award,  and  I  delivered  200  barrels  as  soon  as 
they  were  called  for.  The  letting  was  in  New  York  City,  July  2.  Bids  were  opened  at  noon 
on  a  certain  day.  I  telegraphed  to  Holden  &  Cov  of  Chicago,  and  got  the  price  of  pork  on 
that  day,  and  made  a  bid,  reserving  myself  a  margin,  and  the  next  day,  and  the  next,  and 
every  day  on  uutil  the  award,  I  was  wanting  to  know  whether  I  should  furnish  it  or  not ; 
and  there  was  no  decision  made  in  regard  to  who  should  have  the  contract  until  in  Wash 
ington  City  some  eight  days  afterward,  I  was  notified  that  I  could  furnish  the  pork,  and  then 
occurred  this  conversation  with  the  Commissioner. 

It  will  be  noticed  that  Mr.  Slaveus,  in  his  conversation  with  the  Com 
missioner,  whatever  he  may  have  contemplated,  made  no  allusion  to  any 
proposed  change  in  the  grade  of  pork  to  be  furnished,  but  merely  de 
sired  an  understanding  that  it  was  to  be  delivered  only  as  fast  as  it 
might  be  needed.  Under  the  contract  thus  concluded,  anil  the  arrange 
ment  thus  made  respecting  the  time  of  delivery,  Mr.  Slavens  furnished 
200  barrels  of  mess  pork  of  the  best  quality.  He  did  so  because,  as  he 
states,  (p.  59G,)  this  was  what  he  knew  he  had  in  his  bid  proposed  to 
furnish,  and  what  he  then  supposed  he  had  contracted  to  furnish  ;  but 
afterward  he  u  happened  to  see  Mr.  Threlkeld's  copy  of  the  contract,  and 
discovered  that  it  did  not  call  for  it."  Thereupon  it  occurred  to  Mr. 
Slavens,  according  to  his  representation  to  this  commission,  that  he 
could  substitute  for  "  mess  pork  "  any  lower  grade  that  could  be  made  to 
pass  inspection.  "That,"  he  says,  "  was  the  test  with  me — inspection 
in  all  contracts."  With  this  view  he  saw  the  inspector.  Mr.  Threlkeld, 
and  proceeded  to  convince  him  that  there  was  really  no  need  of  his  be 
ing  over-scrupulous  about  the  grade  of  the  pork,  so  long  as  it  was  sound 
and  sweet.  Mr.  Threlkeld  testifies,  (p.  587,)  "  He  said  that  parties  who 
had  the  contract  at  Omaha,  and  above  here,  were  all  furnishing  that 
class  of  pork,  and  he  did  not  see  why  I  should  be  so  conscientious,  and 
refuse  to  accept  the  same  pork  that  they  received  ;  and  I  did  not  feel 
that  I  wanted  to  be  over-particular,  and  if  they  were  receiving  that  kind 
of  pork,  of  course  I  had  no  right  to  dispute  what  he  said  about  it." 

Mr.  Threlkeld  also  states  in  a  letter  to  the  Commissioner  (p.  592) 
that  Slavens  assured  him  positively  "  that  that  was  the  grade  contem 
plated  by  him  in  his  bid."  The  inspector  seems  to  have  labored  under 
some  embarrassment  in  choosing  between  his  desire  to  serve  Mr.  Slavens 
and  a  desire  to  serve  the  Government  if  he  conveniently  could.  The 
following  extract  from  Mr.  Threlkeld's  testimony  (p.  588)  gives  his  ver 
sion  of  the  discussion,  as  it  was  drawn  out  in  the  examination,  and,  at 
the  same  time,  presents  his  explanation  of  the  course  he  pursued  in 
passing  the  pork : 


LI 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Slavens  claim  that  because  the  contract  did  not  hold  him  up  to  the  terms  of 
the  advertisement,  therefore  he  was  at  liberty  to  put  in  a  different  grade  ? 

A.  He  contended  that  the  contract  was  all  I  had  to  go  by. 

Q.  Then  there  was  some  discussion  as  to  whether  you  should  hold  him  to  the  terms  of  the 
advertisement  or  the  terms  of  the  contract? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  said  if  the  contract  was  not  to  be  my  guide,  then  I  had  no  guide  ;  that 
there  would  have  been  no  occasion  for  sending  it  to  me.  , 

Q.  Did  you  say  to  him  that,  inasmuch  as  he  had  made  a  proposal  to  fill  the  contract 
which  the  Government  had  advertised  for  in  terms,  he  was  bound  to  fulfill  it  according  to 
the  proposal  and  not  according  to  the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  claim  that  if  he  had  made  a  proposal  in  answer  to  an  advertisement 
"which  calls  for  mess  pork,  and  that  proposal  was  accepted,  that  therefore  he  was  bound  to 
furnish  mess  pork,  no  matter  what  the  contract  stated  ? 

A.  I  think  I  used  that  argument  with  him,  but  in  reply  he  called  my  attention  to  the  ad 
vertisement  inviting  proposals  for  flour,  and  also,  in  connection  therewith,  to  the  character 
of  flour  the  Government  received,  a  sample  of  which  had  been  furnished  to  me  by  the  De 
partment,  and  which,  he  reminded  me,  I  knew  was  not  XX  flour;  and  of  course  I  said  ] 
knew  it.  In  reply  he  said  they  had  accepted  a  contract  with  him  for  a  different  grade  of 
flour  from  what  the  Department  called  for,  the  sample  of  which  I  had  in  my  possession  and 
knew  to  be  different ;  and  I  did  not  know  but  they  might  have  done  the  same  with  him  in 
regard  to  pork.  I  also  call  your  attention  in  this  connection  to  the  following  letter,  dated 
September  5, 1874.  This  letter  does  not  refer  to  the  advertisement,  but  simply  to  the  con 
tract  ;  and  taking  all  these  things  together  I  thought  that  he  might  be  right  about  it. 

"  DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

"  Washington,  D.  C.,  September  5,  1874. 

"  SIR  :  I  have  this  day  forwarded  to  your  address  a  sample  of  the  flour  under  which  the 
contract  of  this  Office  with  J.  W.  L.  Slavens  was  awarded,  and  have  to  call  your  attention 
to  instructions  heretofore  given  you  as  to  your  duties  regarding  the  inspection  of  the  same. 
"  Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

"H.  R.  CLUM, 
" Acting  Commissioner. 
"E.  R.  THRELKELD,  Esq., 

"Inspector  Indian  Supplies,  Kansas  City,  Mo." 

Q.  In  the  case  of  flour  you  had  a  sample  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  In  the  case  of  pork  you  had  no  sample  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  simply  had  a  contract   by  which  they  agreed  to  furnish  so  many  barrels  of 

pork. 

*****  *  * 

Q.  While  you  may  excuse  yourself  or  be  perfectly  justified — and  of  course  were  justified— 
in  passing  flour  that  was  up  to  the  sample  furnished,  how  can  you  justify  yourself  in  pass 
ing  pork  which  was  not  of  the  best  grade,  when  the  description  was  simply  pork  ? 

A.  Because  I  did  not  presume  it  was  my  prerogative  to  dictate  what  kind  of  pork  should 
be  accepted,  provided  it  was  sweet  and  sound. 

Q.  How  many  kinds  of  pork  are  there  recognized  in  the  market? 

A.  Well,  there  are  about  five  different  grades :  first,  clear  mess ;  second,  mess ;  third, 
prime  mess  ;  fourth,  mess  ordinary.  Then  there  is  prime  pork,  that  is  still  lower  than  mess 
ordinary. 

The  portion  of  the  testimony  already  quoted  is  perhaps  sufficient  to 
show  Mr.  Threlkeld's  part  in  this  transaction ;  but  in  view  of  the  fact 
that  he  had  been  appointed  inspector  for  the  express  purpose  of  pro 
tecting  the  interests  of  the  Government,  it  may  be  well  to  permit  him  to 
show  by  his  own  admissions  that  he  acted  with  a  full  knowledge  of  the 
facts  in  the  case,  and  that  he  was  not  unconscious  of  a  desire  to  help 
Slavens  out  of  a  losing  bargain.  We  quote  from  page  588: 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  advertisement  before  you  inspected  the  six  hundred  barrels  of  prime 
mess-pork? 

A.  I  think  I  did,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  having  the  advertisement  before  you  which  called  for  mess-pork,  and  the  con 
tract  which  was  silent  upon  the  subject  of  the  quality,  how  did  you  construe- the  contract  as 
giving  you  authority  to  receive  an  inferior  quality  of  pork? 

A.   I  did  not  consider  the  quality  inferior.     The  grade  was  different. 

Q.  I  mean,  did  your  own  knowledge  that  he  could  not  furnish  that  pork  at  $'21  a  barrel 
control  your  judgment  of  the  matter  ? 


LII 

A.  Well,  I  presume,  sir,  in  connection  with  the  information  I  received,  that  they  were 
not  required  to  furnish  mess-pork  from  the  other  localities  ;  that  had  something  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Will  you  say,  at  the  time  you  inspected  the  six  hundred  barrels,  you  had  no  knowl 
edge  of  the  terms  of  the  advertisement,  as  well  as  the  terms  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  cannot  say  that ;  I  have  already  said  differently.  I  think  I  had  knowledge 
of  the  advertisement,  and  also  of  the  contract. 

Q.  And  you  did  know,  did  you  not,  that  there  was  a  difference  in  the  terms  of  the  two 
instruments  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Again,  page  587  : 

Q.  Can  you  tell,  while  the  contract  was  silent  as  to  whether  it  should  be  mess  or  prime, 
why  you  should  not  insist  upon  the  best  when  you  were  acting  for  the  Government  ?  -•••> ••••^ 

A.  I  did  ;  I  insisted  upon  the  best.  Mr.  Slavens  called  my  attention  to  the  fact  that  it 
was. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  why  the  Government  should  not  demand  first  quality,  if  the  contract  is 
silent  on  the  subject,  as  well  as  Slavens  should  insist  upon  the  second  or  third  quality  •'! 

A.  I  have  no  reason. 

Q.  If  the  contract  is  silent  on  the  subject,  why  should  not  the  Government  have  the 
benefit  of  it  as  well  as  Mr.  Slavens  in  determining  the  quality  of  the  pork  by  tho  inspec 
tion  f 

A.  Well,  that  is  a  question  I  am  not  able  to  answer.  I  suppose  if  I  were  buying  of  you 
or  Mr.  Slavens,  or  any  other  person,  a  certain  amount  of  any  given  article,  I  should  certainly 
have  the  grade  specified  in  the  contract,  the  particular  kind. 

Q.  You  were  acting  not  for  Mr.  Slavens,  but  for  the  Government? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  began  by  inspecting  mess  pork? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  his  request  you  passed  as  sound  pork  a  quantity  below  that  grade  because  it  was 
pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  had  not  noticed  the  terms  of  the  contract  at  the  time  I  inspected  the  first. 
I  supposed,  of  course,  it  required  mess-pork,  and  when  he  presented  me  mess-pork,  if  I 
found  it  merchantable,  I  passed  it. 

*  *  *  *  *  *  * 

Q.  You  did  not  communicate  with  the  Department  before  accepting  the  600  barrels? 
A.  No,  sir;  but  I  did  so  immediately  afterward. 

In  bis  letter  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  of  January  11, 1875, 
Mr.  Slavens  states  (p.  595)  that  he  aouly  learned  from  the  Government 
inspector  after  this  [first]  delivery  was  made  that  the  contract  did  not 
require  mess-pork,"  and  this  seems  to  imply  that  the  suggestion  orig 
inated  with  that  official.  Whether  that  is  the  case  does  not  clearly  ap 
pear,  and  it  is  of  little  importance  in  view  of  the  fact  that  whichever  of 
them  first  made  the  suggestion,  he  seems  to  have  had  no  serious  diffi 
culty  in  bringing  the  other  to  act  upon  it. 

Messrs.  Slavens  and  Threlkeld,  having  now  arrived  at  a  satisfactory 
understanding  with  each  other,  nothing  remained  but  to  send  the  lower 
grade  of  pork  to  the  agency,  where  they  seem  to  have  entertained  no 
doubt  that  it  would  be  accepted  without  question  on  the  certificate  of 
the  inspector.  But  before  leaving  this  branch  of  the  subject,  there  is 
another  point  that  demands  attention,  since  it  reveals  a  clear  case  of 
fraudulent  misrepresentation  by  Mr.  Slavens  to  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  and  to  this  commission,  and  convicts  Mr.  Threlkeld  of 
ignorance  or  dishonesty  in  the  inspection  which  he  actually  made  after 
having  consented  to  pass  the  lower  grade  of  pork. 

By  reference  to  the  testimony  of  both  these  men,  which  has  been  al- 
read.y  quoted,  it  will  be  seen  that  they  uniformly  speak  of  the  six  hun 
dred  barrels  of  pork  as  "  prime  mess."  "  On  being  questioned  particularly 
on  this  point,  Mr.  Threlkeld  makes  the  following  statement,  (p.  589  :) 

Q.  Are  the  grades  marked  on  all  the  pork  ? 

A  They  are  usually  marked  by  the  packer. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what  this  pork  was  marked  ? 

A.  It  was  marked  just  what  it  was — prime  mess. 


LIII 

Q.  It  was  not  marked  prime  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  it  was  marked  prime  mess-pork. 

Q.  Do  yon  recollect  sufficiently  well  to  say  ? 

A.  No,  I  could  not  say  positively,  but  that  is  my  recollection. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  difference  in  the  value  of  those  different  kinds  ;  what  would  prime 
be  worth  ? 

A.  From  the  highest  to  the  lowest,  probably  a  difference  of  $10  a  barrel.  The  difference 
between  the  first  three  is  not  so  very  much. 

Q.  What  would  constitute  prime  pork  ? 

A.  Pork  under  size,  I  suppose,  and  probably  lean  and  almost  all  shoulder. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  passed  any  of  that  grade  called  prime  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  did. 

Q.  Why  would  not  that  answer  the  advertisement  just  as  well  as  the  prime  mess,  if  it  was 
sweet  and  sound  pork  f 

A.  It  would,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  willing  to  say  you  did  not  pass  the  lowest  grade  of  pork  on  that  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don't  think  it  was  the  lowest  grade  of  pork  ;  but  I  think  I  would  be  justified 
in  passing  the  lowest  grade  of  pork  if  it  was  sweet  and  sound. 

Mr.'Slavens  (p.  596)  is  equally  certain,  or  perhaps  we  should  ssy  un 
certain,  that  it  was  all  "prime  mess." 

Q.  There  is  a  low  grade  called  prime  pork,  made  up  of  thin  and  small  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  prime  mess  is  made  up  of  lighter  pork,  cut  from  lighter  hogs,  than  mess 
pork. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  portion  of  this  pork  which  was  purchased  by  you  to  make 
up  the  six  hundred  barrels  wras  ot  the  quality  known  as  prime  f 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  it  was  all  prime  mess. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  now  whether  you  did  ship  any  prime  ? 

A.  I  am  pretty  certain  that  it  was  all  prime  mess. 

Mr.  Slavens's  memory  proved  to  be  defective  also  in  respect  to  the 
price  he  had  paid  for  this  pork,  and  the  parties  from  whom  he  had  pur 
chased  it,  though  this  was  his  only  contract  for  pork  that  year,  (pp. 
593,  594 :) 

Q.  And  from  whom  did  you  buy  it  in  Chicago  ? 

A.  I  am  not  certain  what  firm  we  bought  it  through.  It  was  either  through  Holden  &  Co., 
or  Gilbert,  Prior  &  Co.;  we  had  business  with  both  of  them.  We  may  have  bought  a  por 
tion  of  these  six  hundred  barrels  here  from  Plankinton  &  Armor. 

Q.  I  understand  that  you  did  not  deliver  any  more  until  you  began  packing  pork  here 
yourselves  ? 

A.  The  last  two  hundred  barrels  were  of  the  pork  we  packed  ourselves. 

Q.  The  pork  that  you  bought  in  Chicago,  was  that  delivered  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  all  delivered  here, 

###*### 

Q.  Can  you  tell  now  what  you  paid  for  any  portion  of  those  600  barrels  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  remember.     I  think  about  $19  a  barrel. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  paid  for  all  of  it  the  same  price  ? 

A.  Very  likely  not ;  the  market  is  changing. 

Q.  Have  you  in  your  possession  books,  or  means  of  telling  what  you  paid  for  all  the  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  not  with  me.     I  have  it  in  the  office. 

Q.  Could  you,  without  any  great  inconvenience,  write  a  note  to  the  chairman  of  the 
committee  in  Saint  Louis,  within  a  few  days,  and  give  an  answer  to  the  question  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose,  in  truth,  you  put  in  under  that  contract  any  pork  that  would  pass  inspection  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  the  test  with  me — inspection — in  all  contracts. 

Q.  Can   you  state  what  persons  you  bought  pork  of? 

A.  1  have  given  you  the  names  of  the  brokers  through  whom  I  got  all  the  pork — I  did  not 
pack  myself;  it  was  bought  through  brokers. 

The  promise  here  given,  to  forward  to  the  chairman  a  statement  of  the 
prices  paid  has  not  been  kept,  but  by  subsequent  inquiry  the  com 
mission  not  only  obtained  the  desired  information  on  that  point,  but 
learned  such  additional  facts  as  leave  no  room  for  any  other  conclusion 
than  that  the  statements  just  quoted  respecting  the  grade  of  pork  pur 
chased  and  inspected  are  a  tissue  of  falsehood.  The  good  barrels  of 
pork  were  all  purchased  of  Armor  &  Co.,  Chicago,  whose  name  Slavens 


LIV 

did  not  remember  to  give.  A  transcript  from  their  books,  which  was 
furnished  us  by  that  firm,  shows  the  purchase  by  Slavens,  September 
17,  1874,  of  200  barrels,  at  $17  per  barrel :  October  24, 1874,  200  barrels, 
at  $15  per  barrel,  and  October  31,  1874,  200  barrels,  at  $15  per  barrel, 
^ot  a  barrel  of  this  pork  was  "prime  mess,'7  but  it  was,  as  stated  by 
Mr.  P.  D.  Armor,  of  the  brand  known  as  "  extra  prime,"  which  is  the 
lowest  grade  recognized  in  the  Chicago  market.  This  is  the  pork,  as  there 
seems  no  reason  to  doubt,  that  was  certified  by  Threlkeld  to  be  "  prime 
iness,"  and  as  such  delivered  by  Slavens  to  the  Government.  It  has 
already  been  stated  that  this  article  proved  unfit  for  the  use  of  the  Indians, 
and  that  Agent  Saville  promptly  reported  the  fact  to  the  Commissioner 
at  Washington.  The  Commissioner  at  once  addressed  a  complaint  to 
Slavens,  whose  reply  is  printed  on  page  594 ;  a  telegram  to  Threlkeld, 
directing  him  to  accept  nothing  of  lower  grade  than  "mess;"  a  letter  to 
the  same,  calling  for  particulars  relative  to  the  pork  already  inspected 
and  shipped,  and  a  letter  to  Saville  directing  him  to  "inspect  each  barrel 
when  opened,  and  appraise  loss  in  value,"  and  thereafter  to  "  transport 
none  but  '  mess'  from  Cheyenne." 

After  receiving  the  explanations  of  Threlkeld  (p.  592)  and  of  Slaveus, 
as  already  referred  to,  and  a  statement  of  Agent  Saville,  that  if  the  rest 
of  the  contract  were  filled  with  fat  pork  or  bacon,  "the  prime  pork  on 
hand"  could  be  used,  he  referred  the  matter  to  the  Secretary  of  the  In 
terior  for  instructions.  The  Secretary  authorized  the  Commissioner  to 
accept  Slavens's  general  proposition  and  make  the  most  advantageous 
settlement  he  could.  The  settlement  as  finally  effected  required  Slaveus 
to  furnish  "  one  hundred  barrels  of  mess-pork,  to  be  promptly  delivered 
at  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency,  Dakota  Territory,  free  of  cost  to  the  United 
States  Government."  The  cost  of  the  pork  thus  required  of  Slaveus  was 
$2,100,  and  Agent  Saville  was  directed  to  receipt  for  it  as  being  a  satis 
faction  of  the  "  difference  in  value  between  six  hundred  barrels  mess- 
pork  advertised  and  bid  for,  and  the  same  quantity  prime  mess  deliv 
ered  by  contractor."  Slavens's  proposition  was  accepted  by  letter,  dated 
April  15,  1875.  On  the  12th  of  August,  nearly  four  months  later,  Saville 
notified  the  Indian  Office  that  the  pork  had  not  yet  been  received  ;  but 
later,  August  30,  Slavens  reported  that  he  had  shipped  an  equivalent 
amount  of  bacon.  Even  after  this  settlement  of  the  matter  had  been 
agreed  upon,  however,  it  is  evident  that  Slavens  meant  to  make  the  least 
restitution  that  he  could  induce  the  Commissioner  to  accept.  In  the  letter 
before  referred  to,  (p.  595,)  after  expressing  his  willingness  to  make  good 
the  difference  in  value  between  the  pork  called  for  and  the  pork  furnished, 
he  states  this  difference  as  ranging  "  from  one  to  two  dollars."  The 
Commissioner,  accepting  his  statement  that  he  had  furnished  "  prime 
mess,"  required  him  to  settle  on  the  basis  of  $3.50  per  barrel  as  differ 
ence  in  value,  instead  of  the  $1.50  which  Slavens  had  proposed. 

The  fact  is,  that  on  the  day  when  he  purchased  "  extra  prime  "  in 
Chicago  for  $17  per  barrel,  the  price  of  "  mess"  in  the  same  market  wras 
$24.37^,  a  difference  of  $7.37£,  and  on  the  two  days  when  he  made  pur 
chases  at  $15,  the  price  of  "mess"  was  $19.37J  and  $19.50  respectively, 
a  difference  of  $4.37J  and  $4.50.  It  appears,  therefore,  that  if  we  take 
$5  per  barrel  as  a  fair  average  difference  of  value  between  the  two  grades 
of  pork,  the  Government  ought  to  receive  at  least  $900  more  in  value 
than  has  yet  been  refunded.  While  the  Commissioner's  vigor  and 
promptness  in  dealing  with  this  matter  as  soon  as  his  attention  was 
called  to  it  leave  nothing  to  be  desired,  we  cannot  acquit  him  of  re 
sponsibility  for  the  error  of  a  clerk,  by  which  the  fraud  of  Slavens  was- 
rendered  possible.  Amid  the  almost  numberless  details  of  business  con- 


LV 

nected  with  so  important  a  Bureau,  there  must  be  many  which  cannot 
come  under  the  immediate  scrutiny  of  the  chief  officer ;  but  it  would  be 
inadmissible  to  regard  the  preparation  of  contracts  which  involve  the 
expenditure  of  public  funds  as  one  of  them. 

With  regard  to  Mr.  Threlkeld,  we  respectfully  recommend  that  his 
services  as  inspector  be  hereafter  dispensed  with,  and  we  also  recommend 
that  Mr.  Slavens  be  excluded  from  all  participation  in  future  contracts 
with  any  department  of  the  Government. 

FLOUR   ISSUED   AT   THE   AGENCY. 

Professor  Marsh  charges  that  flour  which  he  saw  at  the  lied  Cloud 
agency  was  dark  in  color,  adhesive  to  the  touch,  although  it  had  not 
been  wet,  and  inferior  in  quality.  That  he  should  have  met  with  an  ar 
ticle  of  this  discreditable  quality  at  the  time  he  was  there  is  not  a  matter 
of  surprise  from  the  evidence ;  for  it  appears  that  there  were  27  sacks  of 
flour  which  had  been  condemned  both  by  Mr.  French  and  Major  Long, 
which,  nevertheless,  found  their  way  to  that  agency  for  distribution  by 
some  mistake,  as  is  alleged ;  and  Major  Long,  an  Army  officer,  who  was 
deputed  as  an  inspector  of  flour  at  Cheyenne  in  September,  1874,  states 
that  a  portion  of  the  flour  which  he  was  ordered  to  inspect  slipped 
through  without  inspection,  in  a  manner  that  he  could  neither  explain 
nor  account  for. 

The  sample  of  this  article  which  Red  Cloud  placed  in  the  hands  of 
Professor  Marsh  seems  to  have  been  something  below  the  quality  of 
the  vilest  flour  that  reached  that  agency,  surreptitiously  or  otherwise. 
That  wily  chief  is  as  distinguished  for  low  artifice  as  he  is  for  brute 
courage,  and  the  opportunity  which  the  Professor  had  for  learning  his 
true  character  should  have  made  him  cautious  in  accepting  too  implic 
itly  his  statements,  especially  as  he  availed  himself  of  no  opportunity 
when  he  was  at  the  agency  to  compare  that  sample  with  even  the  worst 
specimens  of  the  flour  he  saw  there.  The  fact  that  Eed  Cloud  had 
made  up  his  sample  of  another  article,  hereafter  to  be  noticed,  in  a  way 
to  make  it  serve  his  own  purpose,  naturally  suggests  the  suspicion  that 
he  may  have  prepared  a  sample  of  flour  by  a  similar  exercise  of  his  cun 
ning.  This  suspicion  was  strengthened  by  the  appearance  of  the  sam 
ple  received  by  Professor  Marsh,  a  portion  of  which,  at  their  request,  he 
was  kind  enough  to  furnish  to  the  commission.  It  was  of  a  peculiar 
clay-white  color,  and  so  perceptibly  gritty  to  the  touch  as  to  give  us  at 
once  the  impression  that  it  probably  had  been  adulterated  by  Eed  Cloud 
with  the  fine  white  sandy  clay  which  largely  composes  the  soil  around 
the  agenc}'.  This  impression  is  confirmed  by  a  chemical  analysis,  which 
we  procured,  and  which  revealed,  besides  the  usual  ingredients  of  wheat- 
flour,  sand,  iron  as  oxide  and  sulphuric  acid,  the  sand  amounting  to  8 
per  cent,  of  the  whole  sample.  The  presence  of  so  large  a  percentage 
of  foreign  substances  seems  conclusively  to  prove  adulteration,  and,  in 
the  absence  of  all  evidence  of  any  other  flour  at  the  agency  containing 
such  substances,  we  are  forced  to  the  conclusion  that  Red  Cloud  is  re 
sponsible  for  this  imposture  practiced  upon  the  learned  Professor. 

Apart  from  specimens  of  flour  of  the  character  first  above  referred  to, 
it  is  not  to  be  doubted  that  the  entire  supplies  of  that  article  furnished 
to  the  Indian  agencies  are  of  a  quality  that  may  be  called  inferior.  The 
contracts  for  supplies  are  given  to  the  lowest  bidder,  and  the  prices  at 
which  these  contracts  are  awarded  show  that  the  Government  expects 
that  an  article  of  inferior  quality,  but  at  the  same  time  sound,  whole 
some,  and  nutritious,  shall  be  delivered.  There  is  no  treaty  obligation 


LVI 

resting  upon  this  Government  to  supply  the  Sioux  Indians  with  flour  or 
any  other  kind  of  food.  Considerations  of  humanity  and  of  policy  alone 
dictate  appropriations  for  that  purpose.  The  Indians  are  incapable  of 
discriminating,  either  from  their  taste  or  style  of  cooking,  between  the 
different  grades  of  flour.  All  that  they  can  reasonably  expect  is  to  be 
furnished  with  a  sound,  wholesome,  and  nutritious  article,  and  if  it  pos 
sesses  these  qualities  they  should  be  satisfied.  We  have,  therefore,  no 
fault  to  find  with  the  Indian  Office  that  it  seeks,  by  its  system  of  pro 
posals,  to  get  an  article  of  inferior  manufacture,  provided  it  is  sweet, 
free  from  all  adulteration,  and  the  contractor  is  required  to  furnish  the 
precise  article  which  he  has  stipulated  to  deliver,  and  for  which  he  ex 
pects  payment  from  the  Government. 

In  revieviug  the  testimony  on  this  point,  we  have  no  hesitation  in 
saying  that  the  Indian  Bureau,  in  advertising  for  XX  flour,  has 
selected  a  grade  proper  for  Indian  supplies.  It  is  a  grade  of  well-ascer 
tained  manufacture,  recognized  by  all  dealers  and  consumers  of  flour. 
In  case  of  good,  sound  wheat,  it  is  made  by  regriuding  with  the  wheat 
the  middlings  that  come  therefrom.  It  thus  increases  the  quantity  of 
flour  one-eighth  or  one-ninth.  We  believe  that  all  the  supplies  of  flour 
furnished  to  the  Indians  during  that  year,  with  the  exception  of  the 
twenty-seven  sacks  above  referred  to,  and  that  which  surreptitiously 
escaped  inspection,  were  fair  and  sound  articles  of  this  low  and  inferior 
grade  of  flour. 

We  think  the  Bureau  erred  in  awarding  the  contract  of  flour  to  J.  II. 
Martin.  lie  was  a  mere  speculative  bidder,  not  the  owner  of  a  mill,  and 
not  himself  having  the  means  of  filling  his  contract.  He  had  been  the 
year  before  the  lowest  bidder  for  flour,  and  had  failed  to  comply  with 
his  contract.  He  complied  but  partially  with  it  in  the  year  187^4,  and 
the  award  of  the  contract  to  him  and  his  subsequent  failure  to  meet  his 
engagements  under  it  have  led  to  several  irregularities  disclosed  by  the 
evidence,  and  which  we  feel  constrained  to  notice. 

First.  It  was  irregular  and  unbusiness-like  for  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  to  instruct  the  superintendent,  Barclay  White,  to  accept 
from  O.  P.  Hurford  2,500  sacks  of  flour  upon  a  sample  to  be  furnished 
to  the  said  superintendent  by  the  vendor  himself. 

Secondly.  It  was  improper  in  that  superintendent  subsequently  to 
permit  Mr.  Hurford  to  substitute  a  lower  sample,  and  to  accept  flour 
ui)on  that  substituted  sample. 

Thirdly.  It  was  improper  in  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to 
sanction  the  act  of  I).  J.  McCauii,  by  which  he  ordered  of  O.  P.  Hurford 
202,000  pounds  of  flour,  in  sacks  we'ighing  88  pounds  to  the  sack,  as  the 
contract  expressly  provided  that  it  should  be  delivered  in  100-pound 
sacks,  and  this  departure  from  the  contract  might  have  led  to  fraudu 
lent  results  if  they  had  not  been  frustrated  as  hereinafter  mentioned. 

Fourthly.  It  exhibited  a  want  of  due  diligence  upon  the  part  of  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  allow  ten  car-loads  of  flour  to  arrive 
at  Cheyenne  without  making  provision  in  advance  to  have  a  proper  in 
spector  there  to  test  its  quality  before  it  was  sent  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency. 

Fifthly.  In  seeking  by  private  contract  to  repair  the  omission  of 
Martin  to  supply  the  necessary  flour  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  David 
J.  McCann  addressed  the  following  letter  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  of  Omaha: 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  August  22,  1374. 

DEAR  SIR:  Since  writing  you  I  have  been  authorized  tfo  purchase  202,000  pounds  of 
flour  for  the  Indian  service,  in  double  sacks,  weighing  88  pounds  to  the  sack,  including 


LVII 

sacks,  or,  say,  2,296  sacks  of  83  pounds  each.     If  you  ses  your  \vay]clear  to  furnish  it  at  the 
price,  ($2  per  100  pounds,)  shipping  two  to  three  cars  per  week,  after  next  week,  please  sign 
and  return  the  inclosed  memorandum.      Koenig  desires  the  order,  but,  in  view  of  our  cor 
respondence,  you  are  entitled  to  the  refusal. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANX. 
O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

The  fact  that  the  practice  has  uniformly  and  universally  prevailed 
of  having  flour  delivered  in  100-pound  sacks,  the  flour  netting  98 
pounds,  precisely  half  a  barrel,  and  the  sack  2  pounds,  and  that  it  was 
so  prescribed  by  the  contract,  caused  the  commission  to  inquire  with 
some  particularity  what  was  the  explanation  of  the  very  singular  order 
here  given  that  this  flour  should  be  put  in  88-pound  sacks.  Mr.  Mc- 
Oann  was  summoned  before  this  commission  for  examination  at  Chey 
enne.  His  testimony  will  be  seen  on  page  538.  His  explanation  was  not 
satisfactory.  He  denied  having  directed  Hurford  to  put  the  flour  in  88- 
pound  sacks;  denied  that  it  was  done  at  his  particular  request,  and 
barely  'conceded  that  he  thought  he  had  made  the  request,  and  thought 
the  request  was  made  after  .being  informed  that  these  were  the  only 
sacks  on  hand.  Mr.  Hurford  denies  that  he  had  any  88-pound  sacks 
on  hand,  but  says  he  had  sacks  for  one  hundred  pounds  ;  that  he  was 
compelled  to  send  to  St.  Louis  for  those  88-pound  sacks,  and  they  were 
shipped  to  him  only  after  the  date  of  Mr.  McOann's  letter.  He  further 
states  that  when  he  saw  McCann  subsequently  to  the  receipt  of  his 
letter,  he  "  asked  him  about  the  88-pound  sacks  ;  why  it  was  to  be  put 
up  in  that  way  ;  that  it  was  unusual  and  might  lead  to  trouble."  Me- 
Can n's  reply  was:  "For  the  convenience  of  issue  together  with  other 
rations.'7  When  we  refer  to  the  testimony  of  Major  Long,  and  learn 
from  him  that  his  first  instructions  were  simply  to  test  the  quality  of 
the  flour,  and  not  to  weigh  it,  and  that  after  so  testing  its  quality,  he 
should  deliver  the  flour  over  to  the  Government,  possibly  an  adequate 
explanation  may  be  found  for  this  unprecedented  order.  The  following 
extract  from  the  testimony  of  Dr.  Saville,  the  agent,  may,  perhaps, 
throw  further  light  upon  this  subject,  (pp.  424,  425 :) 

Q.  Had  you  any  idea  that  flour  was  coming  in  short  weight,  designed  to  pass  for  full 
weight  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  ascertained  that  flour  was  coming  to  the  agency  in  short  weight.  I  know 
no  reason  for  it. 

Q.  Did  that  first  happen,  as  far  as  you  know,  under  the  Martin  contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  flour  coming  in  short  weight  to  the  agency  except  that  of 
the  Martin  contract? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  Has  ever  any  flour  of  short  weight  been  received  at  your  agency  and  counted  as  one- 
hundred-pound  sacks  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  Who  first  made  known  to  you,  or  where  did  you  first  get  the  information,  that  flour 
was  coming  under  the  Martin  contract  in  eighty-eight-pound  sacks  ? 

A.  Mr.  Palmer,  the  store-keeper  here  at  Cheyenne,  first  called  my  attention  to  the  fact.  I 
don't  know  whether  he  first  detected  it  by  weighing  it  or  not. 

Q.  Then,  so  far  as  you  know,  was  not  that  flour  designed  to  pass  for  100-pound  sacks? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Did  the  contractor  or  any  of  the  employes  give  you  to  understand  that  he  was  shipping 
flour  of  short  weights  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  first  learned  of  this  short  weight,  what  did  you  do  ? 

A.  I  gave  orders  to  the  store-keeper  to  receive  no  flour  in  less  than  one-hundred-pound 
sacks  without  orders  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  do  so,  and  directed  the 
store-keeper  to  communicate  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  which  lie  did,  and  the 
Commissioner  wrote  him  a  letter,  which  stated  that  it  made  no  difference,  provided  the 
weight  of  the  flour  was  certified  to  by  the  inspector. 

Q.  Was  that  at  the  time  that  Mr.  Long  was  first  appointed  inspector  ? 

A    Yes,  sir;  Major  Long  was  the  inspector  then. 


LVIII 

Upon  receiving  this  information,  Commissioner  Smith  ordered  Major 
Long  to  weigh  the  flour  as  well  as  inspect  it.  If  this  was  a  deliberate 
scheme  to  defraud  the  Government  and  the  Indians,  it  was  frustrated 
by  the  vigilance  of  the  store-keeper,  Palmer;  and  so  it  may  be  here  said 
that,  notwithstanding  the  failure  of  Martin  to  fill  his  contract,  and  the 
fact  that  the  Government  was  compelled  to  repair  his  failure  by  private 
purchases,  the  Government  lost  nothing  by  the  operation. 

The  practice  has  prevailed,  of  letting  contracts  for  the  supply  of  flour 
to  the  Indians  at  the  city  of  New  York.  This  may  at  one  time  have 
been  expedient ;  but  we  do  not  think  it  is  so  now.  Its  necessary  effect  is 
to  foster  the  business  of  the  professional  or  speculating  contractor. 
Large  and  extensive  mills  now  everywhere  abound  in  the  Valley  of  the 
Mississippi,  and  flour  of  every  quality  is  abundantly  manufactured  there. 
If  these  contracts  were  let  at  some  suitable  point  in  the  West,  the 
manufacturers  of  flour  in  that  section  would  doubtless  become  bidders, 
and  an  active  competition  would  be  created  among  them,  and  flour 
could  be  obtained  of  a  better  quality  and  at  cheaper  rates  than  it  is 
now  furnished  by  the  middle-men  and  speculating  contractor. 

Without  unnecessarily  lengthening  the  discussion  of  this  particular 
branch  of  our  inquiries,  the  facts  embraced  in  the  extended  evidence 
bearing  upon  the  subject,  and  herewith  presented,  satisfy  our  minds  that 
all  the  flour  delivered  was  of  a  low  and  inferior  quality,  but  by  no  means 
unfit  for  food,  and  that  there  was  no  fraud  successfully  perpetrated  upon 
the  Government  in  the  filling  of  the  contract.  Without  pronouncing 
conclusively  upon  the  intention  of  Martin  or  McCann,  the  evidence  is 
sufficient  in  connection  with  the  action  of  the  latter  in  the  matter  of 
transportation  to  justify  the  Indian  Bureau  and  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners  in  refusing  to  confide  to  Mr.  McCann  the  performance  of 
another  contract,  and  Martin  should  long  -igo  have  been  excluded  as  a 
bidder.  There  was  certainly  enough,  also,  to  justify  Commissioner 
Smith's  suspicion  of  fraud,  as  expressed  to  Indian  Commissioner 
Eoberts  and  communicated  by  him  to  Superintendent  White,  in  his 
letter  of  November  4,  1874  ;  and  that  there  was  no  fraud  successfully 
perpetrated  is  due  to  the  vigilance  of  others,  and  in  nowise  to  the 
efficiency  of  Superintendent  White.  The  embarrassments  which  the 
Commissioner  met  in  this  transaction  might  have  been  guarded  against 
to  a  great  extent  if  he  had  taken  the  precaution  to  procure  the  detail 
of  an  Army  officer  to  act  as  inspector  of  flour  at  Cheyenne  in  due  time, 
and  in  anticipation  of  the  delivery  of  the  flour  which  he  knew  was  con 
tracted  for  on  the  llth  of  July.  His  prompt  and  energetic  action, 
however,  in  repairing  his  previous  errors  and  omissions,  when  awakened 
to  the  conduct  of  these  parties,  evinced  an  honest  purpose  to  protect 
the  interests  of  the  Government. 

SUGAR,  COFFFE,  AND  TOBACCO. 

The  same  remark  is  to  be  made  of  the  quality  of  the  sugar,  coffee, 
and  tobacco  that  were  furnished  to  the  lied  Cloud  agency  last  year  as 
of  the  flour.  These  articles  were  all  of  low  grade,  and  were  designedly 
purchased  as  such ;  but  we  have  found  no  evidence  tending  to  show 
that  they  cost  the  Government  more  than  the  fair  market  price,  or  that 
the  full  amount  purchased  did  not  reach  the  agencies. 

The  tobacco  was  of  three  brands.  All  were  of  dark  color;  but 
otherwise  two  of  them  were  fair  articles  of  "  navy  plug,"  composed 
mostly  of  leaf.  The  third  brand  was  a  miserable  compound  of  bits 
and  cuttings,  glued  together  with  licorice  or  some  other  viscid  sub- 


LIX 

stance,  pressed  into  the  form  of  plugs,  and  overlaid  with,  at  most,  two  or 
three  thicknesses  of  leaf.  The  sample  given  to  Professor  Marsh  by  Red 
Cloud  was  of  this  kind,  except  that  the  outer  coating  of  leaf  appears  to 
have  been  removed.  A  lighter  and  better  brand  than  any  of  these  is 
being  furnished  the  present  year ;  but  as  the  Indians  use  it  principally  for 
smoking,  it  is  probable  that  still  more  care  in  the  selection  might  wisely 
be  exercised. 

The  coffee  was  a  low  grade  of  Rio,  but  certainly  good  enough  for  the 
use  it  was  intended  for,  and  far  better  than  the  burnt  and  ground  mix 
ture  called  coffee  that  thousands  of  families  in  the  United  States  are 
glad  to  be  able  to  procure.  The  sample  exhibited  to  us  by  Professor 
Marsh  consisted  of  a  few  black  or  otherwise  imperfect  grains,  such  as, 
with  the  necessary  pains,  could  be  picked  out  from  a  small  quantity  of 
any  common  grade  of  coffee.  Professor  Marsh  unfortunately  did  not 
guard  himself  against  imposture  on  this  point,  by  comparing  what  Red 
Cloud  gave  him  with  that  on  hand  at  the  agency  and  being  issued  at 
the  time  of  his  visit.  That  Red  Cloud  picked  it  out,  grain  by  grain,  to 
serve  his  own  purpose,  the  testimony  leaves  no  room  to  doubt.  He  was 
himself  extremely  vague  and  noncommittal  when  questioned  as  to  the 
time,  place,  and  manner  of  obtaining  the  sample,  and  it  was  only  after 
repeated  and  varied  inquiry  that  we  succeeded  in  eliciting  from  him 
even  so  much  as  appears  on  the  record,  (pp.  305-7.)  But  the  testimony 
of  Mr.  Yates,  the  store-keeper,  and  Mr.  Pallardy,  his  clerk,  one  of  the 
most  intelligent  and  competent  interpreters  we  found  at  the  agency,  es 
tablishes  the  facts  beyond  a  doubt.  Mr.  Yates  says,  (p.  331 :) 

Q.  Did  you7  ever  hear  Red  Cloud  or  Red  Dog  talk  about  the  sample  of  coffee  they  gave 
Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  I  heard  Red  Dog  tell  Pallardy  that  they  picked  the  coffee  of  which  they  gave  a  sample 
to  Professor  Marsh  out  of  quite  a  quantity,  aud  they  picked  the  worst  grains  they  could  find. 
They  picked,  as  he  said,  all  the  black  grains. 

Q.  When  was  this  ? 

A.  I  think  about,  a  month  ago.     I  do  not  recollect  positively. 

Q.  Since  Professor  Marsh's  statement  has  become  known  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  occasion  of  it  was  I  was  reading  the  papers,  and  Red  Dog  was  in  my 
store.  I  turned  round  and  asked  Pallardy  to  ask  him  if  he  gave  these  samples;  and,  if  so, 
why  he  did  it ;  and  he  told  Pallardy  that  he  picked  them  out  of  the  black  grains  of  coffee  and 
gave  them  to  Professor  Marsh  out  of  quite  a  quantity. 

Mr.  Pallardy  confirms  this  statement,  as  follows,  (pp.  33G-7:) 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  that  sample  of  coffee? 

A.  He  said  that  he  and  Red  Cloud  had  tied  those  samples  up  and  given  them  to  Professor 
Marsh;  they  called  him  the  man  that  picked  bones. 

Q.  Did  he  say  where  they  got  the  samples  ? 

A.  They  were  talking  about  that  one  day,  and  I  inquired  how  they  got  all  this  coffee. 
He  said  they  picked  the  bad  grains  out  of  the  coffee  in  the  warehouse.  I  asked  how  they 
got  all  this  bad  coffee,  arid  they  said  they  picked  it  out. 

Q.  Had  he  heard  of  Professor  Marsh's  charges  about  those  things  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  had.  It  was  the  very  day  of  the  conversation  between  us  and 
Red  Dog  that  turned  on  this  subject.  He  said  they  picked  out  all  the  bad  grains  of  coffee. 

SUFFERING   AMONG  THE  INDIANS. 

Doubtless  individual  instances  of  suffering  among  the  Indians  may 
have  occurred,  but  their  known  improvidence  will  sufficiently  account  for 
any  such  instance,  in  the  absence  of  evidence  of  other  causes.  The  testi 
mony  of  Maj.  T.  H.  Stanton  shows  that  during  the  last  winter,  which 
was  unusually  severe,  and,  as  he  says,  "  the  severest  winter  ever  known 
by  the  residents  of  this  country,"  there  was  destitution  and  suffering 
among  Indians  encamped  near  Bordeaux  Creek,  some  distance  from  the 
Spotted  Tail  agency,  and  that  for  a  period  they  were  reduced  to  the 
necessity  of  eating  their  ponies. 


LX 

We  think,  however,  the  facts  that  they  were  far  from  the  agency,  and 
that  there  was  a  short  supply  of  provisions,  owing  to  the  impossibility 
of  transportation,  are  sufficient  to  exonerate  the  Government  from  blame 
or  responsibility.  Certainly  evidence  that  these  sufferings  were  the 
direct  result  of  fraud  in  any  form  is  entirely  wanting.  In  the  fall  of  1874 
they  often  sold  their  flour  for  prices  ranging  from  fifty  cents  to  one 
dollar  per  sack  of  one  hundred  pounds,  to  squaw-men  who  bought  on 
speculation,  or  to  the  persons  passing  through  the  reservation.  They 
butcher  beeves  as  they  have  been  in  the  habit  of  killing  buffalo,  leaving 
on  the  carcass  considerable  of  such  portions  of  the  animal  as  are  useful 
for  food.  Their  opposition  to  receiving  beef  from  the  block,  when  prop 
erly  butchered,  is  so  emphatic  that  a  change  of  system  would  be  attended 
with  very  stout  resistance  on  their  part.  By  the  change  they  would  lose 
the  hides  of  the  cattle,  which  they  sell  to  the  trader  for  three  dollars 
each,  and  by  which  the  Government  loses  about  $50,000  per  annum  at 
these  two  agencies — lied  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail. 

The  law  forbidding  purchases  for  the  Indians  until  the  appropriations 
are  made,  and  the  delay  in  the  passage  of  the  appropriation  bills  some 
times  to  the  very  close  of  the  long  session  of  Congress,  render  it  im 
practicable  to  advertise  for  proposals  and  let  contracts  and  secure  de 
liveries  in  season  to  get  the  supplies  transported  to  the  lied  Cloud  and 
Spotted  Tail  agencies  before  the  winter  sets  in.  When  the  storms  of 
winter  come  on  in  that  country  the  cold  is  so  severe,  and  the  snow  so 
blows  in  drifts  as  to  make  it  impossible  to  transport  goods  or  supplies 
by  wagons  either  from  the  Missouri  Eiver  or  from  the  Union  Pacific 
Eailroad.  While  this  is  found  a  reason  for  the  occasional  scarcity  of 
supplies,  it  is  also  another  reason  for  the  removal  of  these  two  agencies 
to  the  Missouri  Eiver,  in  addition  to  those  suggested  in  another  subdi 
vision  of  this  report.  Two  wagon-trains  with  supplies  for  Eed  Cloud 
agency  were  caught  in  a  storm  last  winter,  and  the  cattle  were  lost  and 
the  men  had  their  limbs  frozen.  A  wagon-train  sent  from  Spotted  Tail 
agency  to  the  Missouri  for  supplies  in  December,  1874,  was  delayed  on 
its  return  by  snows  and  the  severity  of  the  weather  until  April,  1875. 
Meanwhile  there  was  a  want  of  some  articles  of  supplies  at  that  agency. 
We  have  not  only  been  unable  to  ascertain  from  the  white  men  who 
gave  their  evidence  in  that  country  that  there  was  any  general  suffering 
at  lied  Cloud,  but  the  Indians  themselves,  very  many  of  whom  we  ex 
amined  on  the  subject,  fail  to  confirm  the  statement/  An  Indian's  evi 
dence  on  this  subject,  taken  with  a  knowledge  of  his  universal  predis 
position  to  grumble  and  complain,  is  very  reliable  testimony.  That 
there  may  have  been  suffering  among  the  Indians  for  want  of  food  is 
highly  probable,  but  that  it  was  due  to  their  improvidence  or  the  unpre 
cedented  severity  of  the  winter,  and  the  consequent  impossibility  of  keep 
ing  up  supplies  at  the  agency,  is  the  only  conclusion  we  are  warranted 
in  drawing  from  the  evidence  now  before  us. 

TRANSPORTATION. 

It  is  alleged  by  Professor  Marsh  that  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
has  allowed  and  paid  to  D.  J.  McCaun  for  transporting  goods  and  sup 
plies  from  Cheyenne  to  lied  Cloud  agency,  estimating  the  distance  at 
212  miles,  when  the  true  distance  is  only  145  miles,  at  a  rate  established 
by  contract  per  100  pounds  per  100  miles,  and  that  the  Indian  Bureau 
has  not  made  any  effort  to  ascertain  the  true  distance. 

We  find  the  facts  to  be  that  for  the  years  1871  and  1872,  the  Indian 
goods  and  supplies  for  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  were  transported  by  McCanii 


LXI 

from  Cheyenne  to  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  on  the  Platte,  at  the  rate 
of  $1.75  per  100  pounds  per  100  miles,  the  distance  being  then  stated  at 
132  miles  from  Cheyenne  to  the  old  agency,  on  the  Platte.  On  the  28th 
day  of  May,  1873,  McCann  being  the  lowest  bidder,  a  contract  was  en 
tered  into  with  him  for  the  transportation  of  goods  and  supplies  between 
these  two  points  for  the  fiscal  year  ending  June  30,  1874,  at  $1.20  per 
100  pounds  per  100  miles.  Subsequent  to  the  making  of  this  contract 
(27th  July,  1873)  the  Red  Cloud  agency  was  removed  from  its  location 
on  the  Platte  River  to  a  point  on  the  White  River,  about  eighty  miles 
northward.  Upon  the  representations  of  McCann  as  to  the  charac 
ter  of  the  country  between  the  old  and  new  locations  of  the  agency,  arid 
after  a  correspondence  on  the  subject,  (which  is  printed  at  pages  250  and 
251,  Report  No.  778,  Forty-third  Congress,  first  session,  House  docu 
ments,)  the  Commissioner  entered  into  a  new  contract  with  McCann, 
dated  20th  of  October,  1873,  by  which  he  agreed  to  pay  $1.75  per  100 
pounds  per  100  miles  for  transportation  of  all  goods  and  supplies  from 
Cheyenne  to  the  new  Red  Cloud  agency  for  the  fiscal  year  ending  June 
30,  1874.  This  contract  states  the  distance  to  be  212  miles.  On  the  8th 
of  July,  1874,  another  contract  was  made  with  the  same  party,  for  trans 
porting  the  goods  and  supplies  to  that  agency,  from  Cheyenne,  for  the 
fiscal  year  ending  June  30,  1875,  "at  $1.10  per  100  pounds  per  100  miles, 
actual  measurement  of  the  route  necessary  to  be  traveled." 

Before  taking  the  contract  of  the  20th  of  October,  1873,  and  before 
writing  the  letter  in  which  he  represented  the  character  of  the  country 
between  the  two  agencies,  and  before  the  removal  of  the  agency  from 
the  Platte,  McCaun  had  sublet  the  transportation,  or  a  portion  thereof, 
under  that  contract  to  one  C.  Hecht  at  $1  per  100  pounds  from  Cheyenne 
to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  ten  cents  per  100  pounds  for  each  addi 
tional  ten  miles  from  the  old  location  to  the  point  where  it  might  thereafter 
be  located.  This  contract  lie  made  with  Hecht  on  the  26th  of  June,  1873. 
In  this  matter  he  overreached  the  Commissioner,  and  manifested  bad 
faith  at  every  step  of  it. 

The  subject  of  the  distance  seems  to  have  engaged  the  attention  of 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  from  the  time  of  the  removal  of  the 
agency  from  the  Platte,  and  it  appears  that  he  withheld  from  McCaun 
the  payments  for  transportation  on  his  contract  until  he  could  be  satis 
fied  as  to  the  distance,  and  McCauu,  in  writing,  consented  to  receive  a 
portion,  and  to  permit  a  sufficient  amount  to  be  retained  to  cover  any 
overestimate  of  distance  till  the  final  determination  of  the  question.  This 
was  December  3, 1873.  (See  copy  of  same,  page  6G3  of  testimony.)  Ac 
cordingly  the  Commissioner  has  always  withheld  a  sufficieat  amount  to 
provide  a  margin  to  cover  any  difference  which  might  be  found  between 
two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  and  the  actual  distance  until  after  Mc 
Cann  entered  into  the  contract  for  the  year  ending  June  30,  1870,  when 
he  paid  him  in  full  for  transportation  done  by  him  under  his  contract 
ending  June  30,  1875,  but  not  until  after  he  had  given  bond  for  the  per 
formance  of  service  under  the  subsequent  contract.  And  since  the  pay 
ment  there  has  accrued  to  McCaun  a  credit  for  transportation  under  the 
new  contract  sufficient  to  cover  any  overpayment  made  to  him  on  the 
former  contract.  This  payment  to  McCann  of  the  entire  amount  re 
tained  by  his  written  consent  to  cover  any  deficiency  growing  out  of 
overestimated  distance,  was  a  transaction  not  characterized  by  the  pru 
dence  and  caution  which  should  govern  the  action  of  the  Commissioner 
in  dealing  with  contractors,  and  arose  from  a  misapprehension  of  the 
legal  effect  of  the  accounts  then  adjusted.  The  Commissioner  fell  into 
the  error  of  supposing  there  was  a  security  to  the  Government  in  the  fact 


LXII 

tbat  McCann  bad  entered  into  another  contract  and  given  a  bond.  Tbe 
bond  was  only  for  the  faithful  performance  of  the  new  contract,  and 
could  not  cover  any  responsibility  growing  out  of  tbe  old.  While  it 
does  appear  that  there  has  since  been  service  performed  under  the  new 
contract,  amounting  to  a  sum  probably  sufficient  to  cover  any  overpay 
ment  heretofore  made,  there  might  occur  much  difficulty  in  so  apply- 
it  and  adjusting  the  account.  He  was  entitled  under  that  contract  to  be 
paid  for  the  "  actual  measured  distance,"  and  the  account  for  service 
under  that  contract  should  not  have  been  carried  forward  to  be  com 
plicated  with  service  under  the  present  contract.  Yet  we  are  satisfied 
that,  however  imprudent  the  transaction  and  pernicious  the  precedent, 
the  Commissioner  acted  in  entire  good  faith,  and  no  loss  will  probably 
result  to  the  Government  therefrom. 

On  the  28th  of  July,  1874,  the  Commissioner  ordered  an  odometer  to 
be  sent  to  to  the  store-keeper  of  ludiaii  supplies  at  Cheyenne,  with  in 
structions  to  obtain  the  actual  distance  traveled  by  the  trains  transport 
ing  freight  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  It  was  placed  on  a  wagon  on  the 
17th  of  August,  1874,  but  got  out  of  order  and  did  not  effect  the  object. 
In  November,  1874,  the  distance  was  again  measured  by  the  odometer, 
which  indicated  a  distance  of  226  T*J^  miles.  This  was  rejected  by  the 
Commissioner  as  being  clearly  erroneous,  the  distance  never  having 
been  estimated  by  any  person  to  be  so  great,  and  thereupon,  on  the 
20th  of  November,  1874,  he  applied  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to 
request  the  War  Department  to  have  the  distance  accurately  measured. 
This  application  was  made,  and  on  December  29,  1874,  Lieutenant 
Winters  was  detailed  by  General  Ord,  under  orders  of  the  Secretary 
of  WTar,  to  make  the  measurement.  He  attempted  to  do  so,  but  was 
prevented  by  the  severity  of  the  weather  and  the  drifted  snows.  The 
War  Department  has  again  recently  been  requested  by  the  Interior 
Department  to  cause  the  distance  to  be  measured. 

The  evidence  taken  by  us  as  to  the  distance  represents  merely  the 
opinions  of  persons,  for  medupon  the  basis  of  the  time  occupied  in  riding 
or  driving  from  one  point  to  the  other.  No  actual  or  reliable  measure 
ment  has  ever  been  made.  A  route  was  measured  by  J.  W.  Hammond, 
of  Cheyenne,  by  direction  of  the  county  authorities ;  but  the  evidence 
shows  that  the  route  measured  by  him  is  not  the  one  over  which 
goods  and  supplies  are  freighted,  and  is  equally  satisfactory  that  it  is 
entirely  impracticable  for  heavily-loaded  wagons.  Mr.  Hammond  re 
ports  the  distance  measured  by  him  at  145J  miles.  The  character  of  the 
country  is  such,  that  extensive  detours  are  often  required  to  be  made 
in  the  roads  to  avoid  steep  declivities  and  the  extensive  and  deep 
deposits  of  loose  sand. 

At  a  period  of  time  which  we  have  not  ascertained  with  certainty,  but 
before  the  removal  of  the  lied  Cloud  agency,  McCann  opened  a  new 
route  from  Cheyenne  to  the  old  agency,  by  which  the  distance  was  ma 
terially  shortened,  so  as  not  to  exceed  ninety  miles.  This  is  the  route 
now  traveled  by  his  freight-trains  to  the  new  agency.  In  the  opinion  of 
the  commission,  based  upon  all  the  trustworthy  information  we  have 
been  able  to  gather,  the  real  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Bed  Cloud 
agency  by  the  route  usually  traveled  by  the  teams  engaged  in  freight 
ing  goods  and  supplies  does  not  exceed  one  hundred  and  eighty  miles. 

This  distance  may  at  times  be  increased  by  the  necessity  of  going  to 
a  ferry  when  the  Platte  River  is  too  much  swollen  to  be  fordable  at  the 
usual  place  of  crossing.  The  contract  for  the  current  fiscal  year  has 
been  let  .at  $1.65  per  one  hundred  pounds  for  the  whole  distance.  This  is 
the  proper  method,  in  the  opinion  of  the  commission,  of  letting  such  con- 


LXIII 

tracts,  rather  than  per  one  hundred  pounds  per  one  hundred  miles,  as 
was  heretofore' the  custom. 

It  is  certain  that  during  a  portion  of  the  time  before  the  removal  of 
the  agency  from  the  Platte  McOann  transported  the  freight  over  the 
new  route,  which  is  universally  conceded  not  to  be  more  than  ninety 
miles,  and  yet  he  charged  and  received  pay  from  the  Government  at 
the  rate  of  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles.  This  is  not  the  only  act 
of  Mr.  McCann  which  has  attracted  our  attention.  He  seems  to  have 
been  employed  in  the  removal  of  the  supplies,  camp,  and  office  furniture, 
and  Indians  from  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  on  the  Platte  River  in  July 
and  August,  1873.  The  removal  took  place  about  the  time  that  J.  W. 
Daniels,  subsequently  an  inspector,  ceased  to  be  agent  at  Red  Cloud, 
and  about  the  time  that  Dr.  Saville  assumed  the  duties  of  agent.  As 
this  removal  had  been  accomplished  by  Mr.  Daniels,  he  made  out  a  cer 
tificate  on  the  27th  of  August,  1873,  for  the  guidance  of  his  successor 
in  settling  the  accounts  for  that  transportation,  and  set  forth  in  this  cer 
tificate  the  number  of  ox-teams  and  of  two  and  four-horse  teams,  the 
names  of  the  parties  in  charge  of  the  teams,  and  the  number  of  days 
that  each  had  been  employed  with  the  work,  commencing  on  the  28th 
of  July  and  ending  the  18th  of  August.  He  makes  the  number  of  five- 
yoke  ox-teams  to  be  thirty,  two  four-mule  teams,  and  nine  two-horse 
teams,  making  forty-one  vehicles  altogether  employed  in  the  transpor 
tation.  He  fixes  the  time  of  each  team,  varying  from  five  to  sixteen 
days.  (See  pp.  627  and  628.)  Assuming  this  certificate  to  be  a  fair  pre 
sentation  of  the  account  for  transportation  performed  under  his  orders, 
and  allowing  Mr.  McCann  $2.50  per  day  for  each  yoke  of  cattle  em 
ployed,  $10  per  day  for  each  two- horse  team,  and  $20  per  day  for  each 
four-horse  team,  and  $7.50  per  day,  which  seems  to  have  been  allowed 
to  Mr.  Jones,  the  whole  bill  should  have  amounted  to  not  more  than 
$5,117.50.  This  wasjibout  the  sum,  as  we  learned,  for  which  Jules  Ecoffee 
and  F.  D.  Yates  proposed  in  advance  to  contract  to  perform  the  duty. 

And  yet,  on  the  20th  of  January,  1874,  McCann  makes  out  an  account 
for  the  service  of  fifty  teams,  of  five  yoke  of  cattle  each,  for  twenty-three 
days,  from  July  28  to  August  19,  1873,  both  days  inclusive,  at  $2.50  per 
day  for  each  yoke  of  cattle  employed,  amounting  to  $14,375.  The  cor 
rectness  of  this  account  is  certified  by  Dr.  Saville,  and  paid  from  the 
public  Treasury,  although  rejected  by  theBoard  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Whatever  may  have  been  the  means  used  by  McCann  to  obtain  the 
contract  for  the  removal  of  the  property  and  effects  from  the  old  agency 
to  the  new ;  whatever  he  may  have  done  to  procure  Dr.  Saville's  ap 
proval  of  that  extraordinary  voucher,  whether  fraudulently  obtained  or 
not,  the  charge  for  the  service  rendered  is  so  exorbitant  and  unreason 
able  as  to  shock  the  moral  sense  of  any  man  who  looks  into  the  transac 
tion.  The  papers  in  evidence  before  us  bear  upon  their  face  such  un 
mistakable  evidences  of  fraud,  that  we  recommend  the  reference  of  this 
subject  to  the  Department  of  Justice,  that  measures  may  be  taken  to 
have  restored  to  the  Government  what  seems  to  have  been  so  unjustly 
and  fraudulently  taken  from  it. 

If  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  shall  be  continued  at  their 
present  location,  then  we  recommend  that  the  contract  for  freighting 
goods  and  supplies  from  the  railroads  to  the  agencies  be  let  on  bids,  to 
be  received  at  Cheyenne  or  Sidney,  by  the  store-keeper  of  Indian  goods 
and  supplies,  under  the  direction  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Atfairs ; 
and,  in  order  to  determine  the  best  point  to  ship  to  on  the  railroad,  that 
the  bids  be  invited  for  freighting  to  both  agencies  from  both  Sidney  and 
Cheyenne  per  one  hundred  pounds  for  the  whole  distance. 


LXIV 

The  continuation  of  the  present  location  of  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spot 
ted  Tail  agencies  is  utterly  inconsistent  with  any  sound  views  of  econ 
omy  or  policy  in  subsisting  or  civilizing  the  bands  fed  and  clothed  there. 

The  buffalo  has  disappeared  almost  entirely;  the  small  game  has  be 
come  so  scarce,  that  not  one  of  all  the  different  bands  of  Sioux,  Chey- 
ennes,  or  Arapahoes  could  subsist  for  thirty  days  without  the  supplies 
furnished  by  the  Government.  If  rations  are  withheld  from  them,  they 
starve.  They  know  this  full  well.  The  time  has  passed  when  the  Gov 
ernment  is  compelled  to  pay  any  exorbitant  price  for  peace.  They 
should  not  be  abandoned  to  starve  or  to  prey  upon  the  herds  of  the  stock- 
raisers  of  the  plains,  but  their  caprices  and  exacting  and  unreasonable 
whims  need  not  longer  govern  the  terms  on  which  they  shall  be  subsisted. 
Whatever  may  have  been  the  reasons  controlling  the  Indian  Bureau 
in  the  location  of  the  lied  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  at  the  time, 
certainly  they  no  longer  exist.  lied  Cloud  agency  is  distant  from  Cheyenne, 
on  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  about  one  hundred  and  eighty  miles  by  the 
nearest  practicable  route  for  freighting  supplies.  The  distance  from  the 
Spotted  Tail  or  Whetstone  agency  to  Fort  Randall,  the  nearest  landing 
on  the  Missouri  River,  is  two  hundred  and  sixty-three  miles.  Both  these 
agencies  are  located  in  a  sterile,  barren  region,  affording  grazing  for 
stock,  but  unfitted  for  any  other  of  the  occupations  of  civilized  life.  If 
the  Indian  is  to  be  taught  to  till  the  soil,  his  lessons  there  would  be 
hard  indeed,  and  his  discouragements  such  as  utterly  to  disgust  him. 
If  they  had  all  the  arts  of  the  white  man  and  the  aids  of  all  his  science 
they  could  not  subsist  by  agricultural  pursuits  in  that  region.  The  cost 
of  transportation  of  goods  and  supplies  for  the  Indians  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency  from  Cheyenne  for  the  year  1874  was  $92,487.60  ;  and  the  cost 
of  transporting  goods  and  supplies  from  the  Missouri  River  to  Spotted 
Tail  agency,  in  the  same  year,  was  $35,865.07,  making,  in  the  aggre 
gate,  $128,352.67  ;  some  of  the  supplies  costing  for  their  transposition 
from  the  railroad  to  the  agency  a  sum  almost  equal  to  their  original  cost 
in  the  produce  markets  of  the  West.  The  maintenance  of  garrisons  of 
troops  at  Camp  Robinson  and  at  Camp  Sheridan  for  the  protection  of 
these  agencies  renders  necessary  the  transportation  by  wagons  of  all 
the  quartermaster  stores  and  commissary  supplies  for  the  forces  kept 
there.  This  transportation  from  Cheyenne  or  Sidney  or  Fort  Randall 
involves  an  enormous  expense  to  the  Government,  which,  added  to  the  cost 
of  transporting  the  Indian  goods  and  supplies,  amounts  to  so  large  a 
sum  that  the  continued  expenditure  of  it  for  the  mere  gratification  of 
a  whim  of  the  Indians  would  be  utterly  inexcusable. 

The  fourth  article  of  the  Treaty  of  1868  provided  that  these  Indians 
should  be  located  on  the  Missouri  River,  and  at  least  a  portion  of  them 
were  located  there  for  a  time.  The  reasons  for  the  removal  of  their 


removal  of  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  to  a  point  twelve  miles  farther  from 
the  railroad  than  its  first  location,  are  not  apparent  to  the  commission. 
If  the  Government  must  feed  these  Indians,  (and  there  is  no  treaty  ob 
ligation  do  so,)  let  it  feed  them  where  they  can  be  fed  and  clothed  most 
cheaply.  At  any  point  on  the  Missouri  River  on  their  reservation  they 
can  be  furnished  with  supplies  at  the  price  of  those  articles  in  the  grain 
and  produce  markets  of  the  West.  Besides,  neither  of  these  agencies 
is  situated  upon  the  Sioux  reservation  as  required  by  the  Treaty.  A  de 
pot  ot  supplies  should  be  located  on  the  Missouri,  and  a  military  force 
sufficiently  large  should.be  stationed  there  for  its  protection,  and  all  the 


LXV 

bands  of  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  be  compelled  to  move  into  that 
vicinity.  We  suggest  that  if  no  suitable  location  for  the  Sioux  exists  oil 
the  Missouri  River  on  the  present  reservation  set  apart  to  them,  the 
small  tribe  of  Poncas  be  removed  to  the  Indian  Territory,  and  the  Sioux 
be  put  upon  the  reservation  now  occupied  by  them.  The  Oheyeimes  and 
Arapahoes  now  fed  at  Red  Cloud  agency  number  together  less  than  three 
thousand.  They  have  had  a  reservation  set  apart  to  them  in  the  Indian 
Territory,  and  have  since  agreed,  under  the  forms  heretofore  called  a 
"  treaty,"  to  go  to  their  reservation. 

They  should  be  compelled  to  go  there  at  once,  not  alone  because  they 
are  bound  by  treaty  to  do  so,  but  because  it  is  for  their  good.  The 
older  men  among  the  Sioux  realize  the  inability  of  their  tribe  to  war 
successfully  against  the  whites,  but  they  have  been  accustomed  to  be 
humored  in  their  unreasonable  caprices,  and  hired  by  presents  to  do 
even  what  is  for  their  sole  good.  The  young  men  see  all  this,  and, 
believing  that  they  are  more  numerous  than  the  whites,  attribute  the 
munificence  of  the  Government  to  fear  on  its  part. 

We  suggest  that  a  display  of  force  sufficient  to  correct  all  these  false 
impressions  on  the  minds  of  the  young  men,  and  to  carry  the  conviction 
home  to  them  that  the  time  for  their  arrogant  dictation  of  the  place 
where  they  will  feed  upon  the  bounty  of  the  Government  has  passed, 
would  prove  a  measure  of  economy. 

THE  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 

Having  now  disposed  of  the  ten  specific  heads  under  which  Professor 
Marsh  has  arraigned  the  agent,  contractors,  and  other  subordinate  per 
sons  connected  with  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  it  is  proper  that  we  should 
proceed  to  notice  the  grounds  upon  which  he  excuses  himself  in  mak 
ing  his  direct  appeal  to  the  President  of  the  United  States  to  investigate 
the  alleged  abuses  in  the  Indian  Department,  instead  of  relying  for 
their  correction  upon  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  whose  official  duty  it  unquestionably  is  promptly 
to  investigate  and  expose  all  frauds  in  that  Department.  In  explana 
tion  and  vindication  of  this  appeal  he  announces  to  the  President : 

First.  That  he  has  "  no  confidence  whatever  in  the  sincerity  of  the  Sec 
retary  of  the  Interior  or  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  when  they 
publicly  announce  their  wish  and  determination  to  correct  the  present 
abuses  in  Indian  management,"  because  he  declares  that  he  has  "  reason 
to  know  that  they  have  long  been  aware  of  these  abuses,  and  have 
made  no  sincere  effort  to  reform  them." 

Secondly.  That  in  all  his  intercourse  with  those  two  officials,  their 
object  manifestly  was  to  ascertain  the  extent  of  the  information  he  pos 
sessed,  not  so  much  to  learn  what  the  frauds  actually  were  as  to  pre 
vent,  by  all  the  means  in  their  power,  an  exposure  of  them. 

Thirdly.  He  declares  that  he  has  evidence  now  in  bis  possession  re 
flecting  unfavorably  upon  those  two  prominent  officers,  of  the  Govern 
ment. 

These  are  grave  charges,  which,  if  proven,  ought  to  subject  both  offi 
cers  to  impeachment  by  the  House  of  Representatives. 

All  the  complaints  "of  Professor  Marsh  relate  exclusively  to  the 
management  of  Indian  affairs.  This  is  one  of  the  bureaus  under  the 
supervision  and  control  of  the  Interior  Department.  The  duties  of 
that  Department  are  very  multifarious  and  extensive,  and  embrace 
many  important  branches  of  administration ;  and  it  has  become  the 
settled  practice  of  our  Government  that  each  separate  bureau  transacts 
5  I  F 


LXVI 

the  business  pertaining  to  itself,  unless  the  head  of  the  Department  is 
applied  to  for  counsel  and  advice,  or  an  appeal  is  taken  from  the  decis 
ion  of  the  Bureau  by  some  person  who  feels  himself  aggrieved.  We  thus 
find  that  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  personally  has  but  little  connection 
with  any  of  the  contracts  made  for  the  Indian  service,  or  with  the  adjust 
ment  and  payment  of  the  accounts  returnable  to  that  Office.  We  have 
not  been  able  to  learn  that  the  late  Secretary  of  the  Interior  was  con 
sulted  or  had  any  direct  official  connection  with  any  of  the  contracts 
relating  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ;  nor  have  we  learned  that  he  had 
any  official  connection  with  any  of  the  accounts  presented  for  payment 
at  that  Bureau,  except  those  which,  if  allowed  there  and  rejected  by  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  necessarily  came  before  him  for  final 
adjudication.  A  list  of  these  claims,  disallowed  by  that  Board  and  sub 
sequently  paid  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  amounting  to  near  half 
a  million  dollars,  came  before  us  for  examination  in  a  document  pub 
lished  under  a  resolution  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  marked  "  Ex. 
Doc.  No.  123,"  Forty-third  Congress.  The  original  vouchers  and  papers 
upon  which  these  claims  were  ordered  to  be  paid  by  the  Secretary  wrere 
called  for  and  brought  before  us  for  examination.  They  were  carefully 
examined  by  two  members  of  the  commission,  Messrs.  Fletcher  and 
Harris,  who  reported  that  none  of  them  had  been  rejected  by  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners  because  tainted  with  fraud,  but  mainly  be 
cause  of  some  technical  difficulty,  or  an  honest  diversity  of  opinion  be 
tween  the  Indian  Bureau  and  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  upon 
some  question  of  law  arising  in  those  cases.  They  further  stated  that 
in  no  instance  were  any  such  payments  made  without  having  been  sub 
mitted  to  the  law  officer  of  that  Department,  and  having  his  legal  opin 
ion  in  their  favor. 

It  is  no  part  ot  the  duty  of  this  commission  to  inquire  into  the  exer 
cise  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  of  those  large  discretionary  powers 
vested  in  him  by  law.  Whether  his  legal  judgment  be  right  or  wrong 
upon  questions  of  law  does  riot  fall  within  the  province  of  our  inquiry. 
If  there  be  nothing  in  the  case  that  involves  any  imputation  of  fraud  or 
corruption  we  have  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

Subsequent  to  the  date  of  the  claims  embraced  in  the  document  re 
ferred  to,  which  only  extends  to  the  23d  of  January,  1874,  was  the  pay 
ment  by  order  of  the  late  Secretary  of  the  Interior  of  an  account  of  $14,375 
claimed  by  D.  J.  McCaun,  for  the  removal  of  Government  stores,  &c., 
from  the  old  to  the  new  Red  Cloud  agency.  This  claim  we  have  already 
referred  to  in  a  previous  part  of  this  report,  and  we  can  regard  it  in  no 
other  light  than  asiniquitous  and  fraudulent.  It  mightbe unjust  tocon- 
demn  the  late  Secretary  for  the  payment  ot  this  claim,  as  we  do  not  know 
that  the  certificate  of  the  former  agent,  J.  WT.  Daniels,  accompanied 
the  voucher  of  McCaun.  It  is  probable  that  it  did  not,  and  that  McCann 
relied  exclusively  upon  the  voucher  furnished  him  by  Saville.  If  we 
had  any  assurance  that  he  directed  its  payment  after  having  seen  that 
certificate,  we  should  hold  him  obnoxious  to  the  severest  condemnation. 

The  facts  which  our  inquiries  have  elicited,  under  the  charge  of  offi 
cial  delinquency  and  concealment  of  fraud  made  by  Professor  Marsh 
against  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  are  briefly  these :  We  can  learn, 
of  but  three  occasions  upon  which  the  attention  of  the  head  of  the  De 
partment  was  called  to  the  existence  of  any  abuses  and  frauds  at  the 
feed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies. 

First.  On  the  17th  of  May,  1873,  Col.  E.  C.  Kemble  and  Henry 
E.  Alford,  in  connection  with  other  important  duties  in  the  W^est,  were 
directed  specially  to  investigate  and  report  upon  certain  complaints  of 


LXVII 

mismanagement  at  the  Sioux  agencies.  At  that  time  J.  W.  Daniels  was 
the  agent  at  Red  Cloud,  and  Colonel  Risley  bad,  until  within  a  few  days 
previous,  been  agent  at  Spotted  Tail,  but  had  been  removed  from  office, 
and  his  place  supplied  by  Major  E.  A.  Howard.  On  the  IGth  of  June 
these  gentlemen  prepared  their  report  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  on 
the  1st  of  July  it  was  laid  before  the  Interior  Department.  This  report 
limits  its  exposures  to  the  Spotted  Tail  or  Whetstone  agency,  and 
charges  gross  frauds  as  between  the  agent,  Risley,  and  the  beef  contrac 
tors,  alleging  that  the  quantity  of  beef  actually  received  was  less  than 
that  receipted  for  to  the  contractor  ;  expresses  the  opinion  that  the  In 
dians  are  receiving  subsistence  much  in  excess  of  their  true  number; 
and  further  reports  "  such  a  state  of  irregularity,  confusion,  and  cor 
ruption  at  this  agency,  the  result  of  the  management  of  the  late  agent, 
that  they  recommend  a  special  investigation  of  its  affairs  covering  his 
whole  term,  and  a  suspension  of  the  settlement  of  his  accounts  and  out 
standing  vouchers,  and  indebtedness  certified  by  him,  until  such  inves 
tigation  can  be  had."  They  also  exposed  before  that  Department  the 
fraudulent  character  of  the  Graves  transportation  contract,  and  re 
quested  a  suspension  of  any  payment  upon  it.  In  accordance  with  this 
recommendation,  J.  W.  Daniels,  formerly  agent  at  Red  Cloud,  but  then 
promoted  to  the  office  of  Indian  inspector,  was  deputed  to  make  this 
special  investigation  at  the  Spotted  Tail  agency.  Mr.  Alvord,  in  his 
letter  to  this  commission,  of  September  11,  1875,  finds  fault  with  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  for  having  intrusted  that  investigation  to  Mr. 
Daniels,  upon  the  ground  that  he  had  just  ceased  to  be  agent  at  Red 
Cloud,  and  "  could  not  have  exposed  in  detail  the  irregularities  and  cor 
ruption  of  his  neighbor  without  implicating  himself."  We  cannot  con 
cur  in  the  force  of  this  objection  of  Mr.  Alvord.  We  have  never  heard 
of  any  charges  preferred  against  Mr.  Daniels  while  agent  at  Red  Cloud. 
Messrs.  Kemble  and  Alvord,  although  specially  directed  to  inquire  into 
Mr.  Daniels's  administration,  and  while  they  date  their  official  report 
from  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  make  no  charges  against  him.  He  was 
deemed  worthy  of  promotion  by  the  President  and  Senate  to  the  import 
ant  office  of  inspector,  and  he  has  ever  since  held  important  trusts  in 
connection  with  Indian  affairs  without,  so  far  as  we  know,  any  assault 
upon  his  character.  Commissioner  Smith,  in  his  examination  before  us, 
states  that  Colonel  Kemble  certainly,  if  not  Mr.  Alvord  also,  specially 
recommended  Mr.  Daniels,  who  had  then  become  an  inspector,  to  follow  out 
the  investigations  which  they  had  commenced,  but  were  unable  to  finish. 
"  He  was  recommended  to  me  as  the  proper  man  to  push  it  through." 

Mr.  Daniels  made  his  report  on  the 30th  of  August,  1873.  In  this  re 
port,  after  referring  to  the  fact  that  he  had  met  the  late  Agent  Risley 
in  Omaha  with  the  papers  connected  with  his  duties  as  agent,  he  pro 
ceeds  to  say  : 

After  a  full  investigation  into  the  affairs  connected  with  the  Whetstone  agency,  under 
late  Agent  Risley,  I  do  not  find  that  there  has  been  any  more  supplies  receipted  for  than 
were  received.  The  issue  of  rations  was  made  upon  the  number  of  lodges  as  given  by  the 
Indians  themselves,  and  statements  of  disinterested  parties,  both  whites  and  Indians,  are  that 
there  were  from  fifteen  to  twenty  hundred  lodges  present  to  receive  supplies  during 
the  fall  and  winter  of  IS72-73  ;  also,  at  times  the  action  of  the  Indians  in  supporting  their 
demands  for  the  number  of  lodges  stated,  was  such  as  to  render  the  lives  of  Government  em- 
ploy6s  insecure,  unless  conceded. 

He  reports  the  number  of  laborers  employed  at  the  agency  to  be  in 
excess  of  what  the  public  service  required.  He  confirms  the  fraduleut 
character  of  the  Graves  transportation  contract,  and  it  may  here  be  re 
marked  that  the  claim  of  Graves  for  compensation  under  that  contract 


LXVIII 

has  been  ever  since  repudiated  by  the  Department  "  on  account  of  the 
undoubted  fraud  in  it." 

Secondly.  On  the  28th  of  October,  1873,  Samuel  Walker,  clerk  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  was  deputed  by  that  Board  to  visit  the 
Ked  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and  to  make  a  report  of  what 
occurred  to  him  worthy  of  observation.  On  the  6th  of  December  of 
that  year  Mr.  Walker  made  his  report  to  the  Hon.  Felix  K.  Brunot, 
president  of  that  Board.  This  report  was  highly  unfavorable  to  the 
administration  of  affairs  at  these  agencies,  and  presented  details  of 
abuse  and  probable  fraud  worthy  of  further  investigation.  By  an  in 
advertence  upon  the  part  of  Mr.  Brunot,  which  is  explained  in  his  letter 
of  the  Gth  01  February,  1874,  no  copy  of  this  report  was  forwarded  to 
the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  until  he,  having  from  other  sources,  about 
tbe  4th  of  February,  1874,  learned  of  its  existence,  wrote  to  Mr.  Brunot 
for  a  copy.  A  copy  was  furnished  to  the  Secretary  on  the  llth  of 
February.  On  the  ICth  of  March,  1874,  a  commission,  consisting  of 
Bishop  Win.  H.  Hare,  Rev.  S.  D.  Hinman,  for  fifteen  years  a  missionary 
among  the  Santee  Sioux,  J.  D.  Bevier,  United  States  Indian  inspector,  and 
F.  H.  Smith,  one  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  were  assembled 
and  in  session  at  Red  Cloud  agency  to  investigate  the  facts  embraced 
in  Mr.  Walker's  report.  After  more  than  a  month's  investigation  this 
commission,  on  the  22d  of  April,  made  an  elaborate  report,  exonerating 
Agents  Saville  and  Howard  from  the  charges  of  fraud,  and  declaring 
the  administration  of  tbeir  respective  agencies  "  deserving  of  confidence 
and  commendation." 

There  does  not  appear,  therefore,  in  any  of  the  transactions  above 
referred  to,  and  which  occurred  prior  to  the  personal  interview  of  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  with  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  any  evidence  that  this 
officer  had  been  long  aware  of  abuses  at  the  Indian  agencies  without 
making  any  sincere  effort  to  investigate  and  reform  them. 

Thirdly.  We  now  come  to  the  imputation  by  Professor  Marsh  of  a  want 
of  public  zeal  manifested  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  in  relation  to 
the  abuses  and  frauds,  the  existence  of  which  he  sought  to  impress 
upon  his  mind  in  his  personal  interview  with  him,  and  we  cannot  better 
dispose  of  this  delicate  branch  of  the  inquiry  than  by  presenting  the 
account  given  by  both  these  gentlemen  respecting  that  interview. 

Secretary  Delano,  in  a  letter  addressed  to  this  commission,  under 
date  of  July  20,  1875,  speaks  as  follows : 

The  first  time  that  I  met  Professor  Marsh  was  during-  the  council  of  the  Sioux  Indians,  in 
this  city,  in  May  last,  and  after  much  had  been  said  in  the  public  prints  in  reference  to  his 
complaints  regarding  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  when,  being  informed  that  he  was  in  the  room, 
at  one  of  these  meetings,  and  being  desirous  to  learn  from  him  what  he  knew  on  the  subject 
referred  to,  I  made  myself  known  to  him  and  requested  him  to  call  upon  me.  Subsequently 
he  carne  to  my  office,  and  during  that  interview  /  earnestly  requested  him  to  furnish  me  with 
such  information  as  he  had,  and  with  all  the  proofs  that  he  could  refer  to  against  the  agent 
at  Red  Cloud,  which  he  declined  to  do.  General  Eaton,  Commissioner  of  Education,  was 
present  during  this  interview,  and  I  shall  endeavor  to  obtain  from  him  a  letter  referring  to  it. 

I  have  now  stated,  I  think,  correctly,  my  entire  intercourse  with  Professor  Marsh,  and 
have  referred  to  all  that  has  ever  transpired  between  us,  either  orally  or  in  writing. 

Professor  Marsh,  in  his  examination  before  the  commission  on  the 
twentieth  of  July  last,  in  the  city  of  New  York,  testified  as  follows : 

When  I  was  in  the  Indian  Bureau,  the  Secretary  sent  in  a  messenger  stating  that  he  was 
in  his  room,  and  would  like  to  see  me,  and  then  I  went  in  and  had  a  long  talk  with  him. 

Q.  That  was  in  May  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  June  5.  Then  he  asked  me  for  my  information  in  regard  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency;  that  was  the  first  request  I  had  from  him  for  it.  He  asked  me  for  it  in  a  conversa 
tional  way.  I  told  him  that  when  the  committee  was  appointed  I  understood  they  would 
call  on  me  for  information,  and  when  they  did  I  would  give  them  specific  information  in  re 
gard  to  the  matter.  Then  he  asked  me  to  give  it  to  him.  I  told  him  it  was  not  ready  ;  that 


LXIX 

I  was  going  back  to  New  Haven,  and  when  I  got  there,  if  he  wished  for  this  information 
before  the  committee  was  appointed,  if  he  would  write  to  me,  making  a  request  for  it,  I 
would  send  it  to  him.  He  requested  it  orally,  and  although  I  did  not  decline,  I  did  not  say 
I  would  give  it  to  him  alone.  Then  he  made  another  request,  and  I  gave  him  some  of  the 
main  points,  stating  them  as  I  have  given  them  to  you,  and  in  few  words  orally.  But  I 
told  him  that  it  was  a  matter  I  must  consider,  as  I  had  not  decided  what  I  should  do. 
I  told  him  distinctly  that,  if  this  committee  was  appointed,  I  would  give  the  committee  (as 
I  had  informed  the  Commissioner)  this  specific  information.  I  told  him  I  would  think  it 
over  and  see  him  again  before  I  left  town.  I  called  a  second  time,  and  he  was  not  there; 
but  I  told  General  Cowen  to  tell  the  Secretary  that,  on  thinking  it  over,  I  must  keep  this 
information  myself;  that  he  ailready  had  essentially  the  same  information  on  file  in  the  De 
partment  bearing  on  the  agency,  and  that  this  information,  having  been  obtained  by  myself, 
I  had  not  decided  what  I  should  do  with  it.  While  we  were  talking  Secretary  Delano  re 
turned  to  his  office,  and  I  went  there  and  had  a  long  interview  with  him.  I  repeated  what 
I  had  said  to  General  Cowen,  and  also  I  stated  that  my  promise  was  to  show  the  samples  to 
the  President,  and  I  might  possitly  decide  to  send  my  evidence  to  him.  I  might,  perhaps, 
publish  it  separately,  and  might  possibly  wait  until  Congress  came  together  and  give  it  to 
Congress.  I  told  him  again  that  when  the  committee  was  appointed,  then  I  stood  ready  to 
give  them  my  information ;  that  is  almost  the  exact  wording  of  it.  Now,  when  I  got  Mr. 
Smith's  letter  stating  that  the  committee  had  been  appointed  and  requesting  the  informa 
tion,  I  wrote  a  reply,  in  which  I  stated  that  I  would  immediately  proceed  to  prepare  a  de 
tailed  statement,  and  I  went  to  work  that  night  to  get  it  ready.  That  I  have  done,  and  that 
is  the  whole  story.  (Testimony,  pages  53  and  54.) 

COMMISSIONER   OF   INDIAN  AFFAIRS. 

Upon  tlie  Commissioner  the  duty  chiefly  devolves  of  administering  Indian 
affairs.  Upon  him  rests  the  direct  responsibility  of  that  branch  of  the 
public  service.  If  it  is  honestly  and  successfully  conducted,  to  him 
belongs  the  honor.  If  it  is  negligently  or  fraudulently  administered,  to 
him  should  be  awarded  the  condemnation.  We  have  seen  nothing  in 
the  course  of  our  investigations  that  would  lead  us  to  any  other  conclu 
sion  than  that  the  present  Commissioner  earnestly  and  sincerely  desires 
to  perform  his  duty  faithfully  to  the  country.  We  have  encountered  no 
transaction  which  casts  the  least  shadow  upon  his  personal  or  official 
integrity;  but  we  have  met  with  many  marked  by  the  want  of  that 
vigilance,  astuteness,  and  decision  of  character  which  should  belong  to 
the  head  of  that  important  Bureau.  We  have  already  had  occasion,  in 
the  progress  of  this  report,  to  comment  upon  acts  of  .the  Commissioner 
which  exhibit  a  want  of  due  diligence  and  a  liability  to  be  deceived  and 
imposed  upon  by  cunning  and  unprincipled  men.  It  is  unnecessary  to 
make  further  reference  to  those  facts  here ;  but  in  addition  to  such  as 
have  been  specially  referred  to  in  the  preceding  part  of  this  report,  we 
would  say  that  the  forms  of  contracts,  as  prepared  in  the  Indian  Office, 
do  not  seem  to  us  to  be  marked  by  that  clearness  and  precision,  those 
carefully-guarded  provisions,  minute  specifications  of  terms  of  perfor 
mance  which  should  distinguish  contracts  of  such  magnitude  and  in 
terest  to  the  public.  We  think  also  it  was  inexcusable  to  permit  so 
long  a  time  to  elapse  without  ascertaining  the  precise  distance  between 
the  railroad  and  the  agencies,  and  especially  as  the  contract  of  trans 
portation  was  based  upon  an  agreed  compensation  per  mile.  It  was  an 
error  not  to  have  ascertained  whether  Sidney  was  not  a  shorter  and 
more  economical  point  for  wagon  transportation  from  the  railroad  than 
Cheyenne.  We  think  it  an  error  to  have  let  at  New  York  the  contract 
for  the  wagon  transportation  from  the  railroad  to  the  agencies,  as  it 
prevented  the  freighters  from  entering  into  any  competition  for  that 
transportation,  and  left  the  Bureau  a  prey  to  a  speculating  contractor. 
We  believe  that  better  arrangements  could  be  devised  than  those  which 
now  exist,  and  which  necessitate  the  intervention  of  a  contractor  of 
transportation  upon  the  great  highways  of  commerce,  the  railroads, 
which  extend  from  the  eastern  cities  to  the  western.  We  think  he 


LXX 

erred  in  paying  to  McCann  the  full  amount  of  his  transportation  claims, 
based  upon  the  supposed  distance  of  2112  miles  from  the  railroad  to  the 
agency,  relying  upon  a  new  contract  for  transportation  entered  into 
with  him  from  which  the  Commissioner  believed  the  Government  could 
be  indemnified  against  possible  loss,  when  the  precise  distance  should 
be  subsequently  ascertained.  Such  arrangements  by  the  Bureau  are 
irregular  and  pernicious  as  precedents.  We  think  he  erred  in  authoriz 
ing  Dr.  Saville  to  select  an  inspector  of  flour  at  Cheyenne  instead  of 
exercising  that  important  function  himself.  We  think  he  erred  in  sup 
plying  pork  to  the  Indians  instead  of  bacon,  not  simply  because  the 
food  is  distasteful  to  the  Indians,  but  because  it  also  involves  the  need 
less  cost  of  the  transportation  of  the  brine  and  barrel,  they  forming  one- 
third  of  the  cost  of  transportation  thus  paid  for. 

It  is  not  to  be  denied  that  there  has  been  improvement  in  the  Indian 
service  under  Commissioner  Smith's  administration.  Whether  this  is 
due  exclusively  to  him  or  conjointly  to  him  and  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners  we  need  not  attempt  to  determine.  Each  is,  no  doubt, . 
entitled  to  a  proper  share  of  credit  for  this  gratifying  result.  The  con 
tracts  are  now  more  faithfully  executed,  and,  so  far  as  our  visit  afforded 
us  the  opportunity  of  observation,  the  recent  supplies  have  been  of  an 
unexceptionable  character. 

It  is  equally  apparent  that  the  temper  and  feelings  of  the  Indians 
have  undergone  a  very  favorable  change  toward  our  people  and  Gov 
ernment.  Whether  this  has  resulted  from  their  growing  perception  of 
the  irresistible  power  of  the  Government,  their  decreasing  means  of  sub 
sistence  upon  the  plains,  the  extensive  scale  upon  which  we  supply  their 
animal  wants,  or  the  meritorious  efforts  to  extend  the  blessings  of  Chris 
tianity  and  civilization  among  them,  or  to  all  these  causes  combined,  it  is 
unnecessary  for  us  here  to  express  an  opinion  ;  but  that  the  fact  is  so  is 
attested  by  the  uniform  opinion  of  every  officer  of  the  Army,  and  of 
every  trader  and  other  person  who  was  examined  by  us  upon  the  sub 
ject.  The  iron  bond  of  their  tribal' organization  is  rapidly  weakening, 
and  the  most  eminent  and  distinguished  chiefs  now  hold  their  positions 
by  a  precarious  tenure.  We  believe  the  day  has  gone  by  when  a  formi 
dable  Indian  war  can  ever  again  occur  in  this  country. 

GENERAL   OBSERVATIONS. 

The  policy  of  the  Government  in  its  relations  to  the  Indian  popula 
tion  of  this  continent  could  not  fail  to  attract  the  attention  of  this  com 
mission  in  the  course  of  the  investigations  which  they  have  been  con 
ducting.  From  the  earliest  settlement  of  this  country  we  have  been  in 
the  habit  of  treating  the  Indian  tribes  as  sovereignties,  or  quasi  sover 
eignties — of  entering  into  treaties  with  them  as  we  would  with  inde 
pendent  nations,  and  of  regulating  our  intercourse  with  them  by  the 
provisions  of  such  treaties.  This  was  a  very  natural  course  upon  our 
part  when  they  held  and  occupied  so  large  a  portion  of  the  territory 
embraced  within  the  limits  of  the  United  States,  when  the  tribes  were 
so  numerous  and  powerful  as  to  command  such  relations,  and  when  the 
means  of  their  independent  subsistence  so  largely  abounded  upon  the 
plains  ;  but  a  different  state  of  facts  now  exists.  Their  entire  numbers, 
throughout  the  wide  extent  of  the  Republic,  have  dwindled  down  to  a 
few  hundred  thousand  persons,  scattered  over  its  territory.  The  exten 
sion  of  our  settlements  is  driving  them  into  the  iuarable  plains  and 
mountains;  their  means  of  independent  subsistence  are  rapidly  disap 
pearing,  and  they  are  becoming  more  and  more  every  day  mere  pension- 


LXXI 

ers  upon  our  charity.  It  is  readily  seen  that  we  have  now  but  two 
courses  left  open  to  us — to  keep  them  as  they  are  at  present  in  their 
large  reservations,  where  they  are  unable  to  support  themselves  by  ag 
ricultural  labor,  and  where  we  must  continue  to  feed  and  clothe'them  at 
an  oppressive  cost  to  the  people  of  the  United  States ;  or  to  remove 
them,  if  need  be,  by  compulsion,  to  the  Indian  Territory,  or  to  other 
suitable  localities,  where,  by  industry  and  the  cultivation  of  the  soil, 
they  may  provide  themselves  amply  with  the  means  of  subsistence. 
The  recent  act  of  Congress,  declaring  that  no  more  treaties  should  be 
made  with  the  Indians,  shows  that  our  Government  is  now  fully  awake 
to  our  changed  relations  to  that  population.  It  is  the  virtual  announce 
ment  that  a  new  policy  is  to  be  inaugurated,  and  that  hereafter  the  In 
dians  are  not  to  be  negotiated  with  as  tribal  sovereignties,  but  treated 
as  individual  inhabitants  of  the  Republic  within  whose  territory  they 
reside.  Treaty  obligations,  whenever  and  however  made,  should  be 
rigidly  observed.  So  far  as  they  have  been  made  with  the  Indian  na 
tions  who  inhabit  the  territory  set  apart  for  them  south  of  Missouri, 
and  who  are  co-operating  with  the  views  of  the  Government,  they  are 
not  likely  to  be  disturbed.  But  it  would  be  idle  to  talk  about  the  obli 
gations  of  a  treaty  with  the  wild  and  nomadic  tribes  of  the  Northwest, 
who,  without  any  stipulation  to  that  effect,  are  fed  and  clothed  by  our 
bounty.  A  suspension  of  our  humane  supplies  to  them  for  three  months 
would  readily  cause  the  surrender  of  any  treaty  stipulation  that  might 
interfere  with  the  fixed  policy  of  the  nation. 

We  believe  the  time  has  arrived  when  the  policy  foreshadowed  by  the 
act  of  Congress  above  referred  to  should  be  vigorously  enforced  by  ad 
ditional  legislation.  The  criminal  laws  of  the  United  States  should  be 
extended  over  the  reservations,  and  when  an  Indian  outside  of  a  reserva 
tion  shall  commit  an  offense  he  should  be  made  subject  to  the  police  and 
criminal  laws  of  the  State  in  which  such  offense  is  committed.  Some  form 
of  territorial  policy  should  be  established  for  their  government  when 
the  number  and  compactness  of  their  population  would  render  such  an 
organization,  prosper.  The  individuality  of  the  Indian  as  a  member  of 
the  community  should  be  recognized,  and  the  absurd  fiction  of  tribal  sov 
ereignty  in  which  that  individuality  is  now  merged  should  be  abolished. 
Courts  "should  be  organized  for  the  administration  of  justice  over  such 
territory.  The  individual  ownership  of  property  should  be  encouraged 
under  temporary  restrictions  on  alienation,  and  the  privileges  of  citizen 
ship  made  accessible  upon  such  terms  as  good  policy  may  prescribe. 
The  evils  that  result  from  the  absence  of  provisions  like  this  are  appa 
rent.  Community  of  property  is  fatal  to  industry,  enterprise,  and  civil 
ization,  and  exemption  from  legal  responsibility  for  crime  has  stimu 
lated  depredations,  robbery,  murders,  and  assassination. 

We  are  pleased  to  observe  in  the  last  report  of  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  a  concurrence  in  many  of  the  views  above  expressed,  and 
we  feel  fortified  in  our  opinions  by  the  authority  of  one  whose  opportu 
nities  for  studying  the  Indian  character  have  been  so  extensive. 

We  look  with  great  favor  upon  the  efforts  which  have  been  made,  and 
especially  of  late  years,  to  civilize  and  christianize  the  Indians.  The 
policy  is  wise,  noble,  and  magnanimous,  and  while  with  the  untutored  In 
dian,  reared  in  his  own  superstitious  belief  and  false  religion,  progress  must 
necessarily  be  slow,  yet  the  indications  are  sufficient  to  encourage  per 
sistent  efforts  in  that  direction.  We  are  pleased  to  hear  of  the  erection 
of  school-houses,  by  which  the  rising  generation  may  gradually  be 
weaned  from  their  savage  instincts  and  trained  to  the  blessings  of  civiliza 
tion  ;  and  we  heard  with  great  satisfaction  of  the  ardent  and  successful 


LXXII 

operations  of  the  missionaries,  by  which  churches  are  being  erected,  Sun 
day-schools  established,  and  the  blessings  of  Christianity  made  apparent 
to  the  heathen  mind.  Civilization  can  only  spring  from  well-regulated 
law,  and  in  every  effort  to  civilize  the  Indian  the  first  lesson  to  be  im 
pressed  upon  his  mind  is  his  individual  responsibility.  The  next  im 
portant  step  is  to  impress  upon  him  the  necessity  of  individual  property 
as  the  only  incentive  to  industry  and  thrift.  There  can  be  no  civiliza 
tion  except  where  the  law  is  supreme,  equally  obligatory  upon  all,  and 
where  property  is  held  in  individual  right.  The  community  of  property 
now  existing  under  the  tribal  organization  is  fatal  to  any  advances  in 
civilization,  and  while  this  Commission  maintains  the  importance  of  in 
dividualizing  property  in  those  communities,  they,  nevertheless,  recog 
nize  the  fact  that  some  proper  restraints  should  be  imposed  upon  alien 
ation  until  the  Indian  has  acquired  greater  advances  in  civilization. 

In  this  connection  we  would  respectfully  recommend  to  Congress 
the  expediency  of  employing  in  each  of  the  States  and  Territories, 
where  the  number  of  Indians  render  any  such  provision  proper,  a  man 
learned  in  the  law,  whose  duty  it  shall  be  to  guard  and  protect  the 
rights  and  interests  of  the  Indians  in  such  State  or  Territory.  It  should 
be  his  duty  at  all  times  to  keep  a  vigilant  eye  upon  the  contractors  and 
agents,  to  initiate  prosecutions  for  injuries  against  the  person  or  prop 
erty  of  Indians,  and  to  enforce  all  laws  for  their  protection  against 
frauds.  He  would  stand  forth  there  as  the  acknowledged  protector  of 
the  Indian,  who  would  thus  have  some  one  always  within  reach  to  whom 
he  could  apply  for  the  redress  of  his  wrongs.  This  would  gradually 
habituate  the  Indian  to  rely  upon  the  law  for  his  protection,  and  not 
upon  the  arm  of  assassination  and  murder,  and  would  be  one  of  the 
most  powerful  instrumentalities  toward  opening  his  eyes  to  the  bene 
fits  of  a  civilized  life.  The  cost  of  a  single  investigating  committee  would 
pay  for  a  sufficient  salary  for  years  for  such  a  law-officer,  and  it  would 
become  a  measure  of  economy  if,  in  connection  with  it,  the  offices  of 
superintendents  of  Indian  affairs  were  abolished,  which,  from  our  ob 
servation  of  their  duties  and  services,  might  \vell  be  done  without  loss 
to  the  country. 

The  treaty  provision  by  which  the  Indian  is  kept  separate  and  apart 
from  the  white  man  in  his  reservation  may  in  some  aspects  be  a  wise 
and  sound  policy,  but  it  cannot  be  the  policy  of  civilization.  That  can 
only  be  imparted  to  the  Indian  by  bringing  him  in  contact  with  its  in 
fluences.  He  must  see  it  and  feel  it  to  be  penetrated  by  it.  The  ex 
isting  law  excludes  from  the  reservation  all  persons  of  the  white  race 
except  those  who  are  ready  to  abandon  civilization  itself  for  a  disrepu 
table  association  with  Indian  women.  Contact  with  such  examples  of 
civilized  life  must  tend  rather  to  degrade  and  vilify  it  in  the  estimation 
of  the  Indian  himself.  It  would  be  far  better  so  to  amend  our  trade 
and  intercourse  laws  as  to  make  some  provision  for  the  admission  among 
them  of  that  class  of  white  men  whose  respect  for  the  laws  of  their 
country  now  keeps  them  at  a  distance  from  the  reservation. 

We  think  the  day  has  gone  by  when  the  blanket  should  be  furnished 
to  the  Jndian  as  extensively  as  it  now  is.  It  serves  to  perpetuate  his 
barbarous  costume  and  his  idle  habits.  If  furnished  with  clothing  at 
all,  it  should  be  with  such  as  is  suited  to  his  comfort,  and  in  which  it 
will  be  possible  for  him  to  perform  labor.  In  our  interviews  with  the 
Sioux,  Cheyennes,  and  Arapahoes,  many  of  them  expressed  an  earnest 
desire  to  be  clothed  like  the  white  man.  So  the  tented  tepee  only  serves 
to  confirm  and  perpetuate  his  nomadic  habits. 

While  we  would  not  wish  to  see  the  Indian  treated  otherwise  than 


LXXIII 

with  kindness  and  magnanimity,  we  think  that  too  much  deference  has 
been  shown  to  their  whims  and  caprices  in  some  important  transactions 
with  them.  It  is  the  testimony  of  men  whose  opportunities  of  forming 
a  judgment  of  Indian  character  cannot  be  questioned  that  the  Indian 
must  be  made  to  fear  before  he  can  be  made  to  obey.  No  sentiment  of 
gratitude  touches  his  heart  because  of  the  annual  receipt  from  the 
Government  of  food  and  raiment.  He  eats  our  bread  and  wraps  himself 
in  our  blanket  with  no  other  emotion  than  that  they  are  gifts  extorted 
from  our  fears.  Barbarism  knows  no  law  but  that  of  force.  Much  of 
our  policy  has  impressed  him  with  the  idea  that  our  liberal  supplies  to 
him  are  dictated  by  cowardice  and  cupidity ;  and  when  it  is  proclaimed 
by  those  high  in  authority  that  our  present  policy  is  based  upon  the 
maxim  that  it  is  cheaper  to  feed  him  than  fight  him,  we  can  perceive 
how  readily  the  Indian  might  fall  into  such  a  construction  of  our  con 
duct.  In  a  recent  conversation  on  the  plains,  General  Crook  remarked 
to  a  member  of  this  commission  that  it  was  humanity  to  the  Indian  to 
make  to  him  such  a  display  of  force  as  would  cause  him  to  fear  the  power 
of  this  Government,  and,  if  need  be,  to  force  him  into  prompt  obe 
dience  to  the  orders  of  a  government  which  is  burdened  with  his  sup 
port  in  his  transition  state  from  barbarism  to  civilization.  Few  men 
better  understand  the  Indian  character  than  this  distinguished  military 
officer,  and  none  have  had  greater  success  in  dealing  with  them  and 
advancing  them  in  the  habits  of  civilized  life.  We  believe  we  speak 
the  opinion  of  the  people  of  this  country,  who  are  taxed  to  the  extent 
of  over  $8,000,000  a  year  for  the  Indian  service,  when  we  say  it  is  time  that 
we  should  now  adopt  a  fixed,  positive,  and  determined  policy  in  regard  to 
that  population  ;  a  policy  which  will  not  only  more  clearly  define  their 
rights,  but  more  rigidly  enforce  their  proper  relations  and  responsibili 
ties  to  our  Government. 

The  question  whether  it  would  be  expedient  to  transfer  the  manage 
ment  of  Indian  affairs  to  the  War  Deparment  was  suggested  to  our  at 
tention  from  time  to  time,  and  we  gave  to  the  consideration  of  the  sub 
ject  such  reflection  and  inquiry  as  our  opportunities  allowed.  Without 
entering  at  length  upon  a  discussion  of  the  subject,  it  may  be  sufficient 
to  say,  in  general,  that  our  conclusions  are  wholly  unfavorable  to  such 
a  change  at  the  present  time.  There  can  be  no  question  that  the 
change  would  involve  a  serious  interruption  of  the  present  policy  of 
the  Government,  if  not  an  entire  abandonment  of  it;  and,  whatever 
doubts  any  may  possibly  entertain  of  the  complete  ultimate  success  of 
this  policy,  it  would  be  extremely  unwise  to  abandon,  without  the  fullest 
trial,  a  system  of  dealing  which  has  thus  far  produced  excellent  results, 
and  which  promises  at  least  to  pave  the  way  toward  elevating  the 
moral,  civil,  and  political  condition  of  the  Indians. 

There  is,  however,  one  branch  of  the  Indian  business  in  which  we  be 
lieve  the  services  of  Army  officers  might  be  wisely  and  advantageously 
employed,  viz :  the  inspection  of  goods  and  supplies. 

We  have  already  recommended  that  officers  be  detailed  for  the  in 
spection  of  beef  and  beef-cattle  at  the  Indian  agencies ;  and,  for  reasons 
similar  to  those  already  mentioned  in  that  connection,  we  recommend 
that  all  inspections  of  Indian  goods  (except  annuity-goods,  the  inspec 
tion  of  which  is  provided  for  by  treaty)  and  supplies  at  the  points  of 
purchase  and  shipment,  at  terminal  points  of  railroad  transportation, 
and  at  the  agencies,  before  the  articles  pass  into  the  possession  of  the 
agents,  be  under  the  exclusive  charge  of  the  Commissary-General  of  the 
Army.  We  believe  that  such  a  system  would  not  merely  serve  as  a 
salutary  check  on  contractors,  freighters,  and  agents,  but  would  be  of 


LXXIV 

great  use  in  satisfying  the  public  mind  that  the  service  was  fully  and 
faithfully  performed.  It  would  seem  desirable  that  a  copy  of  the  reports 
of  all  such  inspections  should  be  transmitted  through  the  proper  chan 
nels  to  the  Indian  Office. 

The  fact  that  it  has  at  times  been  found  useful,  and  even  necessary,  to 
employ  friendty  Indians  as  a  kind  of  police  about  the  Red  Cloud  agency, 
and  the  good  accounts  we  received  of  their  efficiency  and  fidelity  when 
so  employed,  suggested  to  our  incidental  consideration  the  question 
whether  it  might  not  be  feasible  to  enroll  them  in  companies,  under 
white  officers,  as  a  constabulary  force  for  the  protection  of  the  agencies 
and  the  enforcement  of  authority  over  wilder  tribes.  It  is,  of  course,  a 
question  how  far  such  a  system  would  prove  practicable  ;  but  if  it  could 
be  employed  it  offers  some  manifest  advantages,  besides  relieving  some 
portion  of  the  Regular  Army.  It  would  train  a  certain  number  of  In 
dians  to  habits  of  discipline  and  obedience  to  authority,  as  well  as  of 
loyalty  to  the  Government.  This  body  would  furnish  a  rallying  point 
to  the  well-affected  portion  of  the  tribe,  and  a  menace  of  punishment  to 
the  hostile  or  unruly.  The  number  that  could  be  induced  to  enlist  would 
probably  be  small  at  first,  and  they  should  be  young,  unmarried  men, 
who  would  be  under  the  least  temptation  to  move  about  with  the  vil 
lages.  The  subject  seems  to  us  of  sufficient  importance  to  recommend 
its  reference  to  a  board  of  Army  officers  to  consider  and  report  upon. 

RECOMMENDATIONS. 

In  conclusion,  we  respectfully  present  the  following  summary  of  rec- 
coinmendations,  the  most  of  which  have  already  been  discussed  in  their 
proper  connection : 

1.  That  Agent  Saville  be  removed. 

2.  That  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  Kansas  City,  Missouri,  be  excluded  from 
all  participation  in  future  contracts  under  any  Department  of  the  Gov 
ernment. 

3.  That  E.  R.  Threlkeld,  of  the  same  place,  be  excluded  from  all  further 
employment  as  inspector. 

4.  That  no  bids  for  supplies  be  hereafter  received  from  J.  H.  Martin. 

5.  That  D.  J.  McCann  be  excluded  from  future  contracts  with  the  Gov 
ernment. 

6.  That  the  papers  relating  to  the  account  presented  by  D.  J.  McCann 
for  transportation  of  the  property,  stores,  &c.,  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency 
from  the  old  to  the  new  location  be  referred  to  the  Department  of  Jus 
tice  for  examination  and  action. 

7.  That  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  and  from  Sidney  to  the  Red  Cloud 
and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  be  accurately  ascertained  by  measurement, 
without  unnecessary  delay. 

8.  That  a  new  and  careful  enumeration  of  the  Sioux  around  the  Red 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  be  made,  and  that  the  agents  be  re 
quired  to  make  an  enumeration  of  the  northern  Indians  as  they  may 
come  in  for  supplies,  and  to  keep  a  record  of  all  issues  made  to  them. 

9.  That  bids  for  flour  and  other  produce  be  received  at  some  suitable 
point  in  the  West,  instead  of  New  York. 

10.  That  bids  for  wagon  transportation  from  the  railroads  to  the 
agencies  be  also  received  at  suitable  points  in  the  West. 

11.  That  the  office  of  superintendent  of  Indian  agencies  be    abol 
ished,  and  the  duties  connected  therewith  be  transferred  to  inspectors. 

12.  That  the  feasibility  of  dispensing  with  the  services  of  a  freight- 


LXXV 

contractor  between  eastern  cities  and  terminal  points  of  railroad  trans 
portation  in  the  West  be  considered. 

13.  That  in  accordance  with  the  provisions  of  the  Treaty  of  1SGS, 
Army  officers  be  detailed  to  inspect  all  issues  of  annuity  goods,  and  that 
all  inspections  of  Indian  supplies  and  beef  be  made  under  the  direc 
tion  of  the  Commissary-General  of  the  Army. 

14.  That  a  carefully  devised  system    of  accounts,  uniform  [for  all 
agencies,  be  established,  with  the  mode  of  issuing  and  accounting  for 
all  articles  definitely  prescribed - 

15.  That  the  agencies  differing  greatly  as  they  do  in  the  amount  of 
intelligence  and  capacity  required  to  conduct  them,  be  so  graded  as  to 
establish  for  the  most  important  ones  salaries  sufficient  to  secure  the 
services  of  thoroughly  trained  and  competent  men. 

16.  That  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  (which  are  now  off 
the  Sioux  reservation)  be  removed  to  some  suitable  point  nearer  the  Mis 
souri  Elver. 

17.  That  a  commission  of  Army  officers  be  appointed  to  consider  the 
practicability  of  organizing  an  Indian  soldiery  for  police  and  similar 
duty. 

18.  The  establishment  of   a  United  States  territorial   government 
over  the  Indian  Territory. 

19.  That  suitable  persons,  possessed  of  the  necessary  legal  qualifica 
tions,  be  appointed  to  prosecute  for  all  wrongs  against  Indians,  and  to 
defend  their  rights  and  interests,  as  far  as  they  may  become  the  subject 
of  adjudication  before  the  courts. 

20.  That  all  future  legislation  for  the  Indians,  and  all  dealings  with 
them,  be  based  upon  the  policy  of  bringing  them  as  rapidly  as  possible 
under  the  same  law  which  governs  all  other  inhabitants  of  the  United 
States. 

21.  The  consideration  of  such  additional  legislation  as  will  develop 
and  apply  the  general  system  of  dealing  with1  the  Indians  suggested 
under  the  previous  head  of  "  General  Observations." 

THOS.  0.  FLETCHER. 
BENJ.  W.  HARRIS. 
CHAS.  J.  FAULKNER. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 
OCTOBER  1G,  1875. 


LXXVII 


NOTE  TO  THE  PRESIDENT  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES. 

The  following  is  the  note  from  Professor  Atherton  accompanying  the 
copy  of  the  report  sent  to  the  President : 

RUTGERS  COLLEGE,  NEW  BRUNSWICK,  N.  J,, 

October  16,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  herewith  to  transmit  a  copy  of  the  report  of  the 
Bed  Cloud  investigating  commission,  together  with  a  printed  copy  of 
the  accompanying  testimony. 

Referring  to  your  telegram  of  appointment  of  July  27,  1875,  and  the 
letter  of  instructions  of  July  30,  1875,  received  from  you  through  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior,  I  have  the  honor  to  state  that  immediately  on 
receipt  of  your  telegram  I  proceeded  to  Cheyenne,  where  I  joined  Messrs. 
Fletcher,  Harris,  and  Faulkner  on  the  31st  of  July.  They  had  already 
taken  testimony  in  New  York,  Omaha,  and  Cheyenne,  which  they  placed 
at  my  disposal,  and  from  that  time  onward  I  have  fully  participated  in 
all  their  work,  including  the  preparation  of  the  report  now  submitted. 
The  commission  has  acted  throughout  as  a  single  body,  and  the  con 
clusions  reached  are  the  result  of  our  joint  deliberations,  and  express 
our  unanimous  judgment.  For  this  reason  I  have,  at  the  request  of  the 
three  members  nominated  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  joined 
them  in  signing  the  report  which  they  have  addressed  to  that  body,  of 
which  the  one  herewith  transmitted  is  a  copy. 

It  may  be  proper  to  say,  however,  that  in  case  my  conclusions  had 
differed  on  any  important  point  from  those  of  the  other  members  of  the 
commission,  I  should  have  deemed  it  my  duty  to  submit  to  you  a  sepa 
rate  report,  but  the  course  which  I  have  adopted  seemed  more  in  accord 
ance  with  the  spirit  of  your  instructions,  and  I  trust  it  will  meet  your 
approval.  The  Hon.  Timothy  O.  Howe,  to  whom,  jointly  with  myself, 
your  letter  of  instructions  was  addressed,  has  been  present  with  the 
commission  during  a  small  part  of  its  investigations.  He  was  not  present 
at  any  time  during  the  preparation  of  the  report,  and  his  name  conse 
quently  does  not  appear  among  the  signers. 

I  have  the  honor,  sir,  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

G.  W.  ATHERTON. 

The  PRESIDENT. 


THE   TESTIMONY 


FIFTH  AYENUE  HOTEL,  NEW  YORK, 

Monday,  July  19,  1875. 

The  commissioners  met  and  organized.  Present,  Hon.  THOMAS  C. 
FLETCHER,  chairman  j  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER. 

Professor  O.  C.  Marsh  appeared  and  presented  to  the  commissioners, 
at  their  request,  a  copy  of  a  printed  pamphlet  containing  his  letters  to 
the  President,  of  the  10th  of  July,  as  follows : 

A  STATEMENT  OF  AFFAIES  AT  EED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  MADE 
TO  THE  PRESIDENT  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES,  BY  PEOFES- 
SOE  O.  C.  MAESH. 

To  the  President  of  the  United  States  : 

SIR  :  In  the  two  interviews  I  have  had  with  you  on  Indian  affairs,  I 
was  impressed  with  your  earnest  desire  to  do  justice  to  the  Indians, 
and  with  your  broad  and  philanthropic  views  on  the  whole  Indian  ques 
tion.  This  must  be  my  excuse,  as  a  private  citizen,  for  coming  again 
to  you,  to  lay  before  you  a  statement  of  wrongs  committed  on  the  Sioux 
Indians,  mainly  under  my  own  observation,  during  a  recent  visit  to 
their  country.  My  visit  to  this  region  was  wholly  in  the  interests  of 
science,  with  no  intention  or  wish  to  investigate  Indian  affairs.  The 
frauds  I  observed  were  brought  to  my  notice  by  Eed  Cloud,  who  refused 
to  allow  my  party  to  enter  the  "  Bad  Lands  "  until  I  had  promised  to 
submit  his  complaints  to  you,  in  person. 

Since  my -last  interview  with  you  upon  this  subject,  I  have  been  in 
formed  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  of  the  appointment  of  a 
committee  to  investigate  affairs  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  invited 
to  lay  a  statement  of  the  facts  before  them.  This  I  am  quite  ready  to 
do  whenever  the  committee  request  it.  I  must  decline,  however,  to 
give  my  statement  to  the  Interior  Department  alone,  for  the  following 
reasons : 

1st.  1  have  no  confidence  whatever  in  the  sincerity  of  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  or  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  when  they  pub 
licly  announce  their  wish  and  determination  to  correct  the  present  abuses 
in  Indian  management,  because  I  have  reason  to  know  that  they  have 
long  been  aware  of  these  abuses,  and  have  made  no  sincere  effort  to  re 
form  them.  2d.  In  all  my  intercourse  with  these  two  officials,  their  ob 
ject  has  manifestly  been  to  find  out,  not  so  much  what  the  frauds  actually 
were,  as  the  extent  of  my  information  concerning  them,  so  as  to  pre 
vent,  by  every  means  in  their  power,  all  publicity  or  exposure  of  them. 
3d.  The  evidence  now  in  my  possession  reflects  unfavorably  on  both 
Secretary  Delano  and  Commissioner  Smith. 

For  these  reasons,  I  have  thought  best  to  lay  before  you,  to  whom,  in 
accordance  with  my  promise  to  Eed  Cloud,  I  made  my  first  communica 
tion,  the  accompanying  statement  in  detail,  in  full  confidence  that  the 
evidence  presented  will  meet  with  the  consideration  its  importance  de 
mands. 

IIF 


In  the  statement  which  accompanies  this  letter,  I  have  given  the  re 
sults  of  my  investigation  into  the  affairs  of  Bed  Cloud  agency,  the 
largest  and  most  important  in  the  West.  These  results  clearly  indicate 
both  mismanagement  and  fraud,  especially  in  the  following  particulars : 

1st.  The  agent,  J.  J.  Saville,  is  wholly  unfitted  for  his  position,  and 
guilty  of  gross  frauds  upon  the  Indians  in  his  charge. 

2d.  The  number  of  Indians  at  this  agency  has  been  systematically 
overstated,  for  purposes  which  can  only  contemplate  fraud. 

3d.  The  last  issue  of  annuity  goods,  which  I  witnessed,  was  a  suspi 
cious  transaction,  and,  in  part,  at  least,  fraudulent. 

4th.  The  beef-cattle  given  to  the  Indians  have  been  very  inferior 
owing  to  systematic  frauds  practiced  by  the  agent  and  beef-contractors. 

5th.  The  pork  issued  to  the  Indians  during  my  visit  was  not  suitable 
for  human  food. 

6th.  The  flour  was  very  inferior,  and  the  evidence  of  fraud  in  this  ar 
ticle  is  conclusive. 

7th.  The  sugar  and  coffee  issued  were  not  good,  although  better  than 
the  other  supplies. 

8th.  The  tobacco  observed  was  rotten,  and  of  little  or  no  use  to  the 
Indians. 

9th.  In  consequence  of  fraud  and  mismanagement,  the  Indians  suf 
fered  greatly  during  the  past  winter  for  want  of  food  and  clothing. 

10th.  The  contract  for  freight  from  Cheyenne  to  Eed  Cloud  agency 
was  fraudulent,  as  the  true  distance  is  145  miles,  while  the  contractor 
was  paid  for  212  miles. 

I  would  especially  call  your  attention  to  the  evidence  of  fraud  in  beef- 
cattle,  as  presented  in  the  accompanying  statement.  This  subject  I  in 
vestigated  with  much  care,  as  beef  is  the  principal  article  of  food  of  the 
Sioux  Indians,  and  the  frauds  I  observed  have  caused  great  suffering 
among  them,  as  well  as  great  pecuniary  loss  to  the  Government. 

The  statement  I  have  prepared  is  supported  in  all  its  essential  parts 
by  the  testimony  of  officers  of  the  Army,  who  were  with  me  on  my  expe 
dition,  or  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency.  Among  these  officers  are  several 
personally  known  to  you,  and  all  are  gentlemen  of  high  character. 
Should  any  part  of  my  statement  be  seriously  questioned,  I  trust  you 
will  allow  these  gentlemen  to  be  heard.  If  the  commanding  officers  of 
all  posts  near  Indian  agencies,  or  other  equally  trustworthy  and  disin 
terested  observers  there,  could  likewise  testify,  I  think  it  would  be 
found  that  I  have  but  faintly  indicated  the  corruption  pervading  Indian 
affairs. 

I  have  purposely  confined  myself  in  this  statement  to  a  single  agency, 
and  mainly  to  the  time  of  my  visit,  without  reference  to  much  other 
testimony  which  has  come  to  me  incidentally  in  the  prosecution  of  my 
inquiries,  showing  frauds  of  equal  magnitude  at  other  points.  This  cor 
ruption,  which  is  a  constant  source  of  discontent  and  hostility  among 
the  Indians  themselves,  is,  in  my  judgment,  a  natural  result  of  the  pres 
ent  loose  and  irresponsible  system  of  furnishing  the  Indians  with  goods 
and  supplies,  a  system  that  tends  directly  to  invite  fraud.  I  do  not 
believe  that  anything  but  a  radical  change  in  this  respect  will  prevent 
the  continued  demoralization  of  the  Indian  service.  You  alone  have 
the  will  and  the  power  to  destroy  that  combination  of  bad  men,  known 
as  the  Indian  ring,  who  are  debasing  this  service,  and  thwarting  the 
efforts  of  all  who  endeavor  to  bring  to  a  full  consummation  your  noble 
policy  of  peace. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

O.  C.  MAESH. 

YALE  COLLEGE,  July  lOthj  1875. 


To  the  President  of  the  United  States : 

SIR  :  In  November  last,  while  on  a  geological  expedition  to  explore 
the  " Bad  Lands"  south  of  the  Black  Hills,  I  was  obliged  to  pass  near 
Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  was  detained  there  several  days  by  the  opposi 
tion  of  the  Sioux  Indians.  In  endeavoring  to  propitiate  the  Indians 
and  obtain  their  permission  to  proceed  with  my  party,  I  held  several 
councils  with  Eed  Cloud  and  his  principal  chiefs,  saw  the  issue  of 
annuity  goods  and  provisions,  and  had  other  opportunities  of  seeing 
the  actual  state  of  affairs  at  this  important  agency.  I  found  the  Ind£ 
ans  in  want  of  food  and  clothing,  greatly  dissatisfied  with  their  agent, 
J.  J.  Saville,  and  strong  in  the  belief  that  they  were  systematically 
defrauded  of  the  goods  and  supplies  sent  them  by  the  Government.  In 
one  council,  attended  by  nearly  all  the  prominent  chiefs,  Red  Cloud 
made  specific  charges  of  fraud  against  the  agent  and  contractors,  and 
urged  me  to  make  this  known  to  the  Great  Father,  and  to  carry  to  him 
samples  of  the  rations  the  Indians  were  then  receiving.  Mainly  to  gain 
consent  for  my  expedition  to  proceed,  I  made  Eed  Cloud  the  promise 
he  desired.  Soon  after,  he  gave  me  samples  of  flour,  sugar,  coffee,  and 
tobacco,  to  show  to  you,  assuring  me  that  they  were  the  rations  he  him 
self  was  using,  and  fair  samples  of  those  lately  issued  to  his  people. 

In  consequence  of  the  promise  thus  made  to  Eed  Cloud  and  his  asso 
ciates,  their  immediate  opposition  to  my  proposed  explorations  ceased. 
Other  difficulties  were  successively  overcome,  the  expedition  at  last 
reached  its  destination,  and  fully  accomplished  its  purpose,  notwith 
standing  great  suffering  from  cold,  and  open  hostility  of  the  Indians 
around  us.  When  about  to  return,  we  escaped  a  large  war-party  of  In 
dians  in  consequence  of  warning  and  assistance  sent  by  Eed  Cloud. 
This  act  of  kindness  led  me  on  my  return  to  the  agency  to  make  further 
investigations  there,  especially  in  the  directions  indicated  by  the  chiefs, 
and  I  soon  found  reason  to  believe  that  their  statements  of  mismanage 
ment  and  fraud  were  essentially  true.  The  information  I  received  also 
from  officers  of  the  Army,  and  other  trustworthy  observers  familiar 
with  the  subject  fully  confirmed  this,  and  proved,  moreover,  that  affair 
at  this  agency  had  long  been  in  the  same  condition* 

On  my  return  to  the  East,  my  professional  duties  prevented  me  for 
some  time  from  fulfilling  the  promise  made  to  Eed  Cloud ;  but  in  April 
last,  as  you  will  remember,  I  gave  you  his  message,  showed  you  the 
sample  of  rations  he  had  intrusted  to  me,  and  received  from  you  the 
assurance  of  your  wish  to  do  full  justice  to  the  Indians,  and  correct  any 
abuses  in  their  management.  I  then  regarded  my  mission  at  an  end. 
As  a  matter  of  courtesy,  I  showed  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
the  same  samples,  and  told  him  of  various  things  I  saw  at  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency  that  indicated  a  bad  state  of  affairs  there ;  naturally  sup 
posing  that  such  information,  from  a  disinterested  observer,  would  be 
kindly  received,  and  existing  wrongs  be  prevented  in  future.  I  regret 
to  say  that  the  information  I  ventured  to  offer  to  this  official  was  far 
from  acceptable;  the  inferior  rations  I  exhibited  were  plausibly  ex 
plained,  and  the  damaging  facts  I  had  observed  were  considered  of  little 
consequence.  Commissioner  Smith's  manner  of  receiving  this  informa 
tion  naturally  deterred  me  from  giving  him  many  other  facts  of  a  similar 
nature  then  in  my  possession,  and  I  have  since  deemed  it  best  to  with 
hold  them. 

Subsequently  I  met  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  in  New  York, 
at  their  request,  and  gave  them  a  more  full  account  of  the  condition  of 
things  at  Eed  Cloud  and  other  agencies  that  I  had  visited.  I  again 


showed  the  rations  Bed  Cloud  had  given  me,  and  stated  to  the  com 
missioners  that,  while  I  did  not  vouch  for  these  particular  samples,  I  had 
no  reason  to  doubt,  from  all  I  saw  at  his  agency,  that  they  fairly  repre 
sented  the  supplies  issued  during  my  visit.  I  gave,  also,  a  detailed  state 
ment  of  some  of  the  frauds  in  beef-cattle  and  other  supplies,  and 
showed  that  these  had  resulted  in  great  suffering  among  the  Indians 
during  the  past  winter.  In  answer  to  their  inquiries,  I  pointed  out  to 
the  commissioners  the  great  defects  in  the  present  system  of  supplying 
the  Indians  with  food  and  clothing,  and  how,  in  my  opinion,  these  de 
fects  could  be  remedied. 

A  few  days  afterward  the  following  letter  appeared  in  the  public 
press.  It  explains  itself. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  May  10. 

SIR  :  I  am  desirous  of  appointing  a  commission  from  the  members  of  your  board  to 
investigate  certain  reports  put  in  circulation  by  a  Mr.  Marsh,  relative  to  the  Indian 
service  at  Ked  Cloud  agency,  and  I  write  you  to  request  that  you  will  consult  with 
your  board  and  name  to  me  such  members  of  it  a>s  may  be  designated  to  make  the 
investigation.  It  would  be  well  to  have  the  commission  consist  of  three  members. 
Should  you  be  unable  to  designate  them  from  your  board,  will  you  do  me  the  favor  to 
recommend  some  other  suitable  persons  as  commissioners  ?  I  desire  to  have  the  com 
mission  named  by  yourself  or  the  board  of  which  you  are  president. 
Yours,  &c., 

C.  DELANO. 
Hon.  CLINTON  B.  FISK, 

President  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Supposing  that  this  commission  would  be  appointed,  I  at  once  took 
measures  to  obtain  the  testimony  of  those  who  were  with  me  on  my 
expedition,  and  others  familiar  writh  the  facts  I  had  observed,  since  I 
felt  confident  that  all  I  had  stated  about  mismanagement  of  Indian 
affairs  could  be  readily  substantiated  by  abundant  evidence. 

While  the  Sioux  delegations  were  in  Washington,  in  June  last,  I  had 
the  honor  of  meeting  personally,  on  his  invitation,  the  honorable  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior.  He  informed  me  that  he  had  long  taken  a  deep 
interest  in  the  Indians,  and  had  had  great  experience  in  the  manage 
ment  of  their  affairs.  He  was  especially  interested  in  the  efforts  to 
Christianize  and  civilize  these  wards  of  the  nation,  and  he  earnestly 
entreated  me  to  aid  him  in  the  enterprise.  His  appeal  in  behalf  of  this 
no.ble  work — of  which  so  much  is  said  in  the  East,  and  so  little  seen  in 
the  West — moved  me  deeply  5  but  having  no  time  and  little  inclination 
for  such  professional  philanthropy,  I  was  obliged  to  decline.  The  state 
of  affairs  at  Bed  Cloud  agency  in  November  last,  to  which  I  directed 
his  attention,  he  declined  to  discuss;  but,  in  the  most  solemn  manner, 
assured  me  that  if  I  would  give  him  all  my  information  on  this  point, 
he  would  at  once  see  that  the  abuses,  if  any  existed,  were  officially 
removed.  He  manifested  great  sorrow  that  I  had  not  brought  Eed 
Cloud's  samples  directly  to  him — a  service  which  Eed  Cloud  himself, 
who  knew  the  honorable  Secretary,  did  not  as'k  me  to  perform. 

In  reply  to  the  urgent  request  of  the  honorable  Secretary  for  the  in 
formation  in  my  possession  about  Indian  affairs,  I  informed  him  that 
whenever  the  commission  he  intended  to  appoint,  or  any  other  commis 
sion  empowered  to  ascertain  the  whole  truth,  should  be  ready,  I  would 
cheerfully  co-operate  with  it  in  every  way  in  my  power. 

A  month  later,  or  July  2d,  I  read  in  the  newspapers  the  following  let 
ter—the  original  of  which,  dated  July  1,  1874,  I  subsequently  received 
by  mail : 


WASHINGTON,  July  1,  1875. 

The  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  Indian  Commissioner,  sent  the  following  letter  to-dav  to 
Professor  Marsh  at  New  Haven  : 

At  the  request  of  the  honorable  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the  Board  of  Indian ' 
Commissioners  have  nominated  as  a  committee  to  investigate  affairs  at  Red  Cloud 
agency  the  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  of  Worcester,  Mass. ;  the  Hon.  Thomas  C.  Fletcher  of 
Saint  Louis,  Mo.,  and  the  Hon.  George  W.  Lane,  of  the  chamber  of  commerce,  New 
York ;  and  it  is  understood  that  these  gentlemen  have  accepted  the  service  to  which 
they  have  been  invited.  In  preparing  instructions  for  their  guidance,  I  have  not  been 
able  to  furnish  them  your  complaints  against  the  Red  Cloud  agency  administration, 
except  in  a  general  way,  as  detailed  to  me  by  yourself  at  several  interviews.  But  I 
have  informed  them  of  the  request  of  the  Secretary  that  you  will  reduce  these  com 
plaints  to  a  written  statement,  to  be  accompanied  with  such  proofs  and  suggestions,  as 
to  reliable  sources  of  evidence,  as  will  aid  in  securing  a  thorough  investigation.'  I 
have  also  informed  them  of  the  appointment  and  purpose  of  this  commission,  and  my 
intention  to  renew  the  request  heretofore  made  by  the  honorable  Secretary  that  you 
will  now  furnish  the  said  written  statement,  making  the  charges  as  specific  and  fur 
nishing  evidence  as  much  in  detail  as  possible ;  or,  if  you  are  not  prepared  to  do  this, 
that  you  will,  in  any  way  most  agreeable  to  yourself,  make  known  in  a  definite  form 
your  impressions  and  views  respecting  Indian  affairs,  as  resulting  from  your  personal 
observation  while  in  the  Indian  country.  I  make  this  request  of  you  in  the  belief  that 
you  can  have  no  other  desire  in  this  matter  than  that  the  interests  and  rights  both  of 
the  Indians  and  Government  may  be  protected.  And  I  desire  to  renew  the  assurance 
heretofore  given  you  that  it  is  the  sincere  wish  and  purpose  of  the  Department  to  pre 
vent  frauds  as  far  as  possible,  and  to  omit  no  effort  to  discover  them  when  perpetrated, 
and  in  all  respects  to  bring  the  Indian  service  to  the  highest  possible  standard  of 
humanity  and  strict  integrity. 

To  which  my  reply  was  as  follows  : 

YALE  COLLEGE,  NEW  HAVEN, 

July  3,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  have  received  your  letter  of  the  1st  instant,  informing  me  of  the  appoint 
ment  of  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  of  Massachusetts  ;  Hon.  T.  C.  Fletcher,  of  Missouri ;  and 
Hon.  George  W.  Lane,  of  New  York,  as  a  committee  to  investigate  affairs  at  Red  Cloud 
agency.  I  have  as  yet  received  no  communication  from  the  gentlemen  named,  but  I 
will  at  once  proceed  to  prepare  a  detailed  statement,  embodying  the  evidence  on  this 
subject  now  in  my  possession,  a  copy  of  which  I  will  with  pleasure  lay  before  the 
committee,  so  soon  as  they  inform  me  that  they  have  organized  and  are  ready  to  act. 
Very  truly,  yours, 

O.  C.  MAESH. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

The  Department  letter  of  instructions  to  the  commission,  although  the 
gentlemen  named  had  not  accepted  their  appointment,  as  intimated  in  the 
commissioner's  letter  to  me,  was  published  also.  This  letter  of  instruc 
tions,  as  published,  contains  several  erroneous  statements  and  misrepre 
sentations,  especially  as  to  the  nature  and  extent  of  my  observations  at 
Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  virtually  prejudges  the  case.  How  it  corre 
sponds  with  the  facts,  may  be  seen  from  the  evidence  given  below. 
The  letter  is  as  follows : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  July  1,  1875. 

GENTLEMEN:  On  the  nomination  of  the  chairman  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners,  at  the  request  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  you  have  been  appointed  by 
him  a  commission  to  investigate  the  affairs  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 

The  occasion  for  such  investigation  has  mainly  originated  in  statements  made  by 
Mr.  O.  C.  Marsh,  professor  in  Sheffield  Scientific  School,  Yale  College,  concerning  mat 
ters  which  he  observed  while  at  the  agency  during  November  last.  As  yet  these  state 
ments  have  no  definite  form  known  to  the  Office  other  than  as  they  have  appeared  in 
the  public  press,  and  as  made  verbally  by  Mr.  Marsh  to  myself. 

In  the  latter  part  of  March  last,  Professor  Marsh  brought  to  me  certain  samples  ot 
tobacco,  and  flour,  and  sugar,  which  he  said  he  did  in  accordance  with  a  promise  made 
to  Red  Cloud,  in  consideration  of  a  promise  by  Red  Cloud  to  procure  an  entrance  f 
him  into  the  Black  Hills  country  for  scientific  purposes.    He  stated  that,  in  a  private 
interview  with  Red  Cloud,  that'lndian  chief  complained  very  bitterly  of  his  agent 
many  respects,  and  earnestly  desired  a  change,  and  that  he  had  given  him  t    jse  as 
samples  of  the  supplies  which  he  was  receiving  from  Government.    He  also  state* 


the  beef-cattle  issued  to  the  Indians  were  small  in  size,  and  otherwise  of  inferior  char 
acter;  and  that  there  was  much  confusion  in  agency  matters,  especially  in  the  issuing 
of  a  large  amount  of  goods  in  a  single  day.  Professor  Marsh  expressed  his  belief  that 
there  might  have  been  an  exchange  of  articles  purchased  for  the  Indians  for  others  of 
interior  quality  while  en  route  between  Cheyenne  and  the  agency.  He  also  stated 
that  his  views  as  to  agency  affairs  were  confirmed  by  conversations  with  other  persons 
around  the  agency. 

Professor  Marsh  stated  that  he  had  not  taken  any  measures  to  satisfy  himself  that 
the  samples  given  to  him  by  Red  Cloud  were  fair  samples  of  the  supplies  which  were 
then  being  issued,  and  could  not  say  from  his  own  observation  that  they  were  fair 
samples ;  but  that  on  one  occasion,  when  a  sack  of  flour  had  fallen  from  an  Indian 
woman's  arms  and  broken  open,  he  saw  the  color  of  the  flour  as  it  lay  upon  the  ground, 
and  thought  it  not  much  different  from  the  sample  furnished  by  Red  Cloud,  but,  not 
being  a  judge  of  flour,  he  could  not  make  the  comparison  with  any  degree  of  accuracy. 
The  samples  referred  to  Professor  Marsh  did  not  leave  with  me,  and  it  is  presumed 
that  he  has  them  still  in  his  possession. 

His  other  statements  in  regard  to  agency  affairs  are  of  a  still  more  indefinite  char 
acter. 

In  an  interview  subsequently  held  with  the  honorable  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
Professor  Marsh  was  invited  by  him  to  reduce  his  statements  of  frauds  or  irregularities 
in  the  Indian  service  to  writing,  in  such  form  as  would  best  aid  in  their  investigation 
To  this  request  Professor  Marsh  has  not  yet  responded,  nor  has  he  declined  it.  I  have 
this  day  notified  him  of  your  appointment,  and  again  requested  him  to  furnish  such 
statements  or  suggestions  as  may  aid  in  finding  the  facts  as  to  the  administration  of 
Red  Cloud  agency. 

If,  however,  Professor  Marsh  should  still  decline  to  furnish  such  assistance,  it  is  the 
desire  of  the  honorable  Secretary  that  you  proceed  in  the  investigation,  and  avail 
yourselves  of  all  the  means  that  can  be  found,  after  arriving  upon  the  ground,  or 
before,  to  learn  the  state  of  affairs ;  and  that  you  will,  without  fear  or  favor,  investi 
gate  all  matters  pertaining  to  that  agency  so  thoroughly  as  to  satisfy  yourselves 
beyond  a  doubt  as  to  facts,  upon  which  you  will  make  a  clear  report  relative  to  its  past 
and  present  condition  and  management,' with  such  recommendations  as  will  enable  the 
Department  to  take  proper  action  in  the  premises. 

You  will  undoubtedly  meet  with  persons  of  strong  partisan  feelings  enlisted  both 
for  and  against  the  administration  of  the  present  agent ;  and  as  you  proceed  you  will 
become  fully  aware  of  the  misrepresentations  which  such  partisanship  naturally  pro 
duces,  and  the  extreme  difficulty  of  discovering  the  truth  amid  the  conflicting  state 
ments  and  allegations. 

"  While  guarding  against  giving  undue  weight  to  accusations  which  originate  in 
malice  and  suspicion  only,  you  will  not  hesitate  to  probe  all  questions  to  the  bottom, 
and  bring  to  light  any  official  neglect  or  fraudulent  or  unfair  transactions  of  any  kind 
or  degree,  by  whomsoever  committed.  A  copy  of  Agent  Saville's  letter  requesting  such 
investigations  is  herewith  furnished  for  your  information ;  also  a  full  report  of  the 
councils  held  |with  Red  Cloud  and  a  delegation  of  the  chiefs  and  headmen  of  Red 
Cloud  agency  at  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  May  28  and  June  5. 

"At  Cheyenne  .you  will  find  C.  H.  Bostwick,  the  storekeeper  of  the  Government  ware 
house,  also  Mr.  Long,  the  inspector  of  the  flour  and  the  supplies  which  have  been  ship 
ped  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  year.  You  are  also  requested 
while  in  the  Indian  country  to  make  such  observations  pertaining  to  Indian  affairs 
generally  at  Red  Cloud  agency  as  will  be  of  assistance  to  the  administration  of  the 
Indian  Bureau. 

"  Of  this  commission  the  Hon.  A.  H.  Bullock,  of  Worcester,  Mass.,  is  the  chairman, 
from  whom  you  will  receive  notice  of  the  time  of  proceeding  to  Cheyenne.  Your  com 
pensation  while  actually  engaged  in  this  service  will  be  at  the  rate  of  $8  per  day,  in 
addition  to  your  necessary  and  actual  traveling  expenses.  One  of  the  inclosed  requi 
sitions  for  transportation  will  be  honored  by  the  ticket-agent  of  the  Union  Pacific 
Railroad  at  Omaha,  and  the  other  on  your  return  at  Cheyenne.  The  weekly  stage  at 
Laramie  en  route  to  Red  Cloud,  leaves  Cheyenne  on  Monday  early  in  the  day. 

"  Your  attention  is  called  to  the  circular-letter  of  the  honorable  Second  Comptroller 
of  February  26, 1875,  and  to  Department  circular  of  July  1, 1874,  for  information  as  to 
requirements  in  settling  your  accounts  for  expenses. 
"  Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

"EDW.  P.  SMITH." 

To  the  Hon.  A.  H.  BULLOCK,  Worcester,  Mass.;  GEO.W.  LANE,  New  York  City; 
THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  St.  Louis,  Mo.* 

»  *  Messrs.  Bullock  and  Lane  having  declined  to  serve  on  the  commission,  the  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior  appointed  Hon.  C.  J..Faulkuer,  of  W.  Va. ;  and  Hon.  B.  W.  Harris, 
of  Mass. ;  and  named  Hon.  T.  C.  Fletcher  as  chairman.  This  commission  organized  in 
New  York,  July  19,  and  started  for  the  West  July  22, 1875.  The  President  subse 
quently  appointed  three  additional  commissioners,  viz :  Hon.  T.  O.  Howe,  of  Wisconsin ; 
Hon.  Wayne  MacVeagh,  of  Pennsylvania ;  and  Prof.  G.  W.  Atherton,  of  New  Jersey. 


Up  to  the  present  time,  I  have  received  no  information  that  this  com 
mission  has  organized,  but  I  stand  ready  to  aid  it  in  every  way  in  my 
power.  In  the  mean  time,  the  communication  I  now  transmit  to  you  con 
tains  the  information  asked  for  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

The  results  of  my  investigation  into  the  affairs  of  Ked  Cloud  Indian 
agency  are  embodied  in  the  following  statements,  arranged  for  conve 
nience  under  distinct  heads : 

I. — The  Indian  agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency. 

In  the  first  conversation  I  had  with  Ked  Cloud,  when  Gen.  L.  P.  Brad 
ley  and  Col.  T.  H.  Stanton  were  present,  he  complained  bitterly  of  his 
agent,  J.  J.  Saville,  who,  for  the  past  two  years,  has  had  charge  of  his 
agency.  Ked  Cloud's  specific  charges  were,  that  his  agent  was  incom 
petent,  weak,  and  vacillating,  having  no  influence  over  the  Indians ; 
and  especially  that  he  was  in  league  with  the  contractors  to  defraud  the 
Indians  of  the  food  and  clothing  sent  them  by  the  Government.  I 
regret  to  say  that  all  I  saw  myself  at  the  agency,  and  all  I  learned  from 
trustworthy  observers  and  official  records,  has  convinced  me  that  these 
charges  were  well  founded.  As  soon  as  I  met  the  agent  himself,  and 
observed  his  method  of  dealing  with  Indians,  it  was  at  once  evident  to 
me  that  he  was  entirely  unfit  for  the  responsible  position  he  occupied. 
This  fact  is  illustrated  by  an  occurrence,  now  well  known,  which  took 
place  a  few  days  before  my  arrival,  when  the  agent,  by  a  single  act  of 
folly,  aroused  the  bitter  hostility  of  the  Indians  in  his  charge,  and  came 
near  sacrificing  the  entire  white  population  of  the  agency.  This  was 
avoided  only  by  the  rare  coolness  and  bravery  of  Lieut.  E.  Crawford, 
Third  Cavalry,  who  came  with  his  company  to  the  rescue,  at  the  criti 
cal  moment.  Without  military  protection,  the  agent  could  not  have 
remained  in  charge  of  the  Indians  a  single  day,  as  their  threats  against 
him  for  indignities  and  alleged  frauds  continually  practiced  upon  them 
were  open  and  violent.  Of  the  more  debasing  influences  which  this 
agency  was  openly  exercising  upon  the  Indians  I  will  not  now  speak, 
although  the  evidence  on  this  point  was  obtained  by  direct  observation. 
That  a  chief  of  such  note  and  ability  as  Eed  Cloud  should  be  subjected 
to  the  caprices  of  such  an  agent,  is  in  itself  a  gross  indignity,  and  ill- 
calculated  to  inspire  him  or  his  people  with  respect  for  the  advantages 
of  civilization. 

There  appeared  to  be  a  total  want  of  system  in  the  management  of 
agency  affairs.  The  issues  of  annuity  goods,  of  beef,  and  other  supplies, 
all  were  made  in  a  loose  and  unbusiness-like  way,  in  which  a  just  dis 
tribution  among  the  Indians  was  impossible.  Agent  Saville  was  placed 
in  his  position  to  guard  the  interests  of  the  Indians  and  of  the  Govern 
ment,  and  it  appears  that  he  betrayed  both  alike.  He  defrauded  the 
Indians  by  withholding  from  them  provisions  which  he  charged  against 
the  Government  as  issued  to  them.  For  example:  In  his  abstract  of 
provision  issues  for  November,  1874,  which  he  rendered  to .  the  Jnterior 
Department,  and  which  is  now  there  on  file,  he  states  that  November  8, 
1874,  he  issued  to  12,351  Indians  fresh  beef  amounting  to  271,248  pounds, 
or  over  2GO  head  of  cattle,  according  to  the  average  weight  which  he 
allowed  the  contractor  on  the  last  herd  received.  The  truth  is  that  he 
issued  no  beef  whatever  to  the  Indians  on  that  day  nor  for  several  days 
afterward,  as  I  ascertained  from  the  agent  himself  and  others  at  the 
agency.  I  arrived  at  the  agency  November  9,  and  was  informed  by  the 
agent  that  he  had  been  for  "some  time  withholding  rations  from  the  . 
dians  until  they  would  consent  to  be  counted ;  and  this  fact  he  commu- 


8 

nicated  officially  to  the  Department,  and  subsequently  repeated  it  to 
Bishop  W.  H.  Hare  in  my  presence  in  Washington.  The  first  issue 
after  the  counting  was  finished  was  November  14,  and  I  was  then  pres 
ent,  and  know  that  for  several  days  previously  the  Indians  had  been 
suffering  from  want  of  the  very  food  he  claimed  in  his  official  report  to 
have  issued.  In  the  same  manner  his  official  reports  represent  other 
issues  that  never  took  place.  How  he  at  the  same  time  was  defrauding 
the  Government,  in  receipting  for  beef  which  he  did  not  receive,  is  fully 
shown  in  section  IV  of  this  statement. 

The  incompetence  and  true  character  of  Agent  Saville  were  well 
known  to  the  Interior  Department  before  my  visit,  as  is  shown  by  an 
official  report  made  by  United  States  Indian  Inspector  J.  D.  Bevier, 
October  21,  1874.  In  this  report  the  inspector  exposed  a  fraudulent 
contract  made  privately  by  Agent  Saville  with  his  father-in-law,  A.  E. 
Appleton,  by  which  the  Government  would  have  been  largely  a  loser. 
Inspector  Bevier  states,  moreover,  that,  while  investigating  the  contract, 
Agent  Saville  made  false  representations  to  him,  and  Mr.  Appleton  en 
deavored  to  bribe  him  to  silence.  Other  special  commissioners  of  the 
Interior  Department  had  likewise  reported  unfavorably  of  this  agent 
and  affairs  at  the  agency.  And  yet  this  man  has  for  the  past  two  years, 
with  the  full  approval  of  the  Department,  had  charge  of  the  most  im 
portant  agency  in  the  West,  where  nearly  half  a  million  of  dollars 
annually  passes  through  his  hands. 

In  all  his  official  relations  Agent  Saville  has  proved  himself  a  weak 
man,  and  he  should  never  have  been  placed  in  so  responsible  a  position. 
If  honest  when  appointed,  as  some  good  men  believe,  he  fell  an  easy 
victim  to  the  wiles  of  beef  and  freight  contractors  of  the  Indian  ring, 
as  many  stronger  men,  agents  and  high  officials,  have  done  before  him. 

II. — Number  of  Indians  at  agency  overestimated. 

There  is  good  reason  to  believe  that  the  number  of  Indians  supplied 
with  provisions  at  Bed  Cloud  agency  has  been  largely  overestimated, 
resulting  in  extensive  losses  to  the  Government.  According  to  the 
provision-returns  of  Agent  Saville  for  the  fourth  quarter  of  1874,  which 
he  rendered  to  the  Interior  Department,  there  were  15,117  Indians  who 
received  rations  at  the  agency  October  1,  1874.  The  same  official  doc 
ument  states  that  on  Novembers  (the  day  before  my  arrival)  there  were 
12,351  Indians  fed  at  the  agency.  I  was  informed  by  the  agent  and 
other  persons  immediately  connected  with  the  agency  that  two  or  three 
thousand  of  these  Indians  belonged  to  northern  tribes  and  were  en 
camped  within  a  short  distance  of  the  agency,  on  the  north  side  of 
White  Eiver.  Agent  Saville  subsequently  confirmed  this  statement  in 
an  interview  with  Eev.  S.  D.  Hinman  and  myself  in  Washington,  May 
31, 1875,  and  stated  also  that  some  of  these  northern  Indians  received 
annuities  at  the  annual  issue,  November  12,  1874.  A  few  days  after 
the  issue  of  annuity  goods,  when  about  to  start  with  my  expedition 
across  White  Eiver  to  the  northward,  I  was  informed  by  the  agent  and 
others  that  the  northern  Indians  were  still  in  camp  there,  but  on  cross 
ing  the  river  with  my  party,  I  found  less  than  forty  lodges,  by  actual 
count,  and  ascertained  that  all,  or  nearly  all,  of  these  were  Ogallalas 
belonging  to  Eed  Cloud's  band.  During  the  next  ten  days,  moreover, 
I  repeatedly  crossed  the  great  northern  trails  leading  to  the  Black  Hills, 
and  ascertained  beyond  a  doubt  that  no  considerable  body  of  Indians 
had  recently  passed  over  them.  For  these  reasons,  and  others  which 
I  deem  equally  conclusive,  I  believe  the  thousands  of  northern  Indians 
officially  reported  at  this  agency  to  be  a  myth. 


The  number  of  Indians  actually  at  Bed  Cloud  agency,  when  I  was 
there  in  November  last,  could  not  have  been  more  than  1,200  lodges  or 
8,400  individuals.  Judging  from  all  the  information  I  could  obtain  I 
doubt  if  this  number  has  been  exceeded  within  the  last  two  years. 
Some  observers,  best  qualified  to  judge,  placed  the  number  lower  and 
among  these  was  Jules  Ecoffey,  of  Fort  Laramie,  whom  I  have  known 
for  several  years.  He  was  with  me  at  the  agency,  acted  as  my  inter 
preter  in  one  council,  and  is  personally  acquainted  with  nearly  all  the 
Indians  there.  The  statement  of  the  agent,  that  on  October  1  there 
were  at  the  agency  over  15,000  Indians,  no  disinterested  person  familiar 
with  the  facts  believes  for  a  moment,  especially  as  at  that  time  the 
wilder  Indians  had  not  commenced  to  return  to  the  agency  for  the 
winter. 

III. — Issue  of  annuity-goods. 

I  was  present  at  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  at  the  annual  issue  of  annuity- 
goods,  November  12,  1874,  and  personally  observed  nearly  all  that  were 
delivered.  I  saw  the  entire  issue  of  blankets,  and  carefully  examined 
the  quality  of  those  delivered.  The  number  of  bales  of  blankets  I  did 
not  count  as  they  were  issued,  but,  soon  after  all  were  given  out, 
my  attention  was  called  to  the  number  of  these  by  the  chief  Bed  Dog, 
who  stood  near  me  in  the  warehouse  during  the  issue.  He  strongly 
asserted  that  the  issue  was  fraudulent,  and  that  the  number  of  blankets 
issued  was  much  less  than  the  Indians  were  entitled  to ;  and  that  the 
number  issued  to  him  for  his  own  band  was  not  more  than  half  what  he 
should  have  had.  This  earnest  protest  on  the  part  of  the  chief,  who  is 
next  in  rank  to  Bed  Cloud,  called  my  attention  particularly  to  the 
amount  issued ;  and  on  recalling  the  exact  circumstances  of  the  delivery, 
which  I  had  witnessed  a  few  minutes  before,  I  felt  reasonably  certain 
that  not  more  than  twenty  bales  were  issued,  and  that  the  number  could 
not  possibly  have  exceeded  twenty-five  bales.  One  of  the  persons  whom 
I  then  saw  assisting  the  agent  in  issuing  the  blankets  was  Louis  Bich- 
ard,  (or,  as  the  name  is  usually  pronounced  and  written  at  the  agency, 
Louis  Beshaw,)  whom  I  knew  personally,  and  subsequently  employed 
as  interpreter,  by  the  advice  of  Gen.  L.  P.  Bradley,  who  had  previously 
employed  him  as  guide,  and  spoke  in  high  terms  of  his  faithfulness  and 
reliability.  I  subsequently  met  Louis  Bichard  in  Washington,  with  J. 
S.  Collins,  esq.,  of  Fort  Laramie,  now  secretary  of  the  special  Sioux 
commission,  who  had  brought  him  on  from  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  as  a 
trustworthy  interpreter,  and  who  spoke  highly  of  his  truthfulness.  On 
conversing  with  Mr.  Bichard  about  the  affairs  of  Bed  Cloud  agency, 
with  which  we  were  both  conversant,  I  learned  incidentally  that  he  had 
carefully  counted  all  the  bales  of  blankets  that  were  issued  on  Novem 
ber  12,  1874,  when  he  assisted  in  the  distribution  which  I  witnessed. 
He  assured  me  that  the  number  of  bales  of  blankets  then  issued  was 
eighteen,  each  bale  containing  fifty  pairs  of  blankets,  and  he  gave  me 
the  following  affidavit : 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  June  4, 1875. 

I  hereby  certify  that  at  the  issue  of  annuities  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  in  November, 
1874,  I  assisted  the  agent,  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  in  the  issue,  and  know  from  actual  count 
that  there  were  only  eighteen  bales  of  blankets  issued,  each  bale  containing  fifty  pairs. 
I  was  present  at  the  whole  issue,  and  saw  all  the  annuity-goods  delivered.  No  bales 
were  left  in  the  warehouse  after  the  regular  issue. 

The  brand  U.  S.  1.  D.  on  these  blankets  injured  the  cloth  so  that,  after  a  short  wear, 
holes  replaced  the  letters.  ^^  REgHAW> 

Witnesses : 

J.  McKENNEY, 

F.  W.  HAGUE. 


10 

DISTRICT  OF  COLUMBIA,  ss.  : 

I,  John  McKenney,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  the  District  aforesaid,  certify  that 
Louis  Reshaw,  whose  signature  is  affixed  to  the  within  affidavit,  came  before  me  and 
made  oath  that  the  matters  stated  in  said  paper  are  true  to  the  best  of  his  knowledge 
and  belief. 

Witness  whereof,  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and  notarial  seal  this  5th  day  of 
June.  1875. 

J.  McKENNEY, 

Notary  Public. 

That  no  bales  of  blankets  remained  at  the  agency  after  the  issue  of 
November  12, 1874,  is  shown  by  Mr.  Richard's  affidavit,  above  quoted, 
and  by  Agent  Saville's  property-returns,  now  on  file  in  the  Interior 
Department.  This  I  also  know  from  personal  observation,  as  I  was 
several  times  in  the  warehouse  after  the  issue,  and  saw  that  none  were 
there. 

On  subsequently  examining  the  property-returns  of  Agent  Saville  for 
the  4th  quarter,  1874,  at  Red  Cload  agency,  which  he  had  rendered  to 
the  Indian  Bureau,  and  were  on  file  in  the  Interior  Department,  I 
was  surprised  to  find  that  he  had  certified  to  the  issue,  on  November 
12,  1874,  of  no  less  than  thirty-five  bales  of  blankets,  and  had  furnished 
a  paper,  purporting  to  be  a  receipt  of  the  Indian  chiefs  for  that  number. 
In  a  recent  communication  from  the  Indian  Bureau,  I  learn  that  the  true 
number  of  bales  shipped  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  in  1874  was  thirty-seven, 
or  1,850  pairs.  Hence  it  would  appear  that  the  Indians  at  this  agency 
received  less  than  one-half  the  number  of  blankets  for  which  the  Gov 
ernment  paid. 

The  blankets  actually  issued  were  bitterly  complained  of  by  the 
Indians,  for  two  reasons — the  first  being  their  small  sizes,  which  were 
not  adapted  to  men  as  large  as  the  Sioux  braves,  and  were  only  fitted 
for  women  and  children.  The  second  and  most  serious  objection,  how 
ever,  was  the  fact,  that  the  brand  U.  S.  I.  D.  on  each  blanket  had  been 
put  on  with  some  material  which  rotted  or  burned  the  cloth,  and  after  a 
short  wear  this  brand  was  replaced  by  holes,  as  stated  above  in  the 
affidavit  of  Mr.  Kichard.  This  fact  is  now  well  known  to  every  one  at 
the  agency.  These  blankets  were  furnished  by  J.  &  J.  Dobson,  of 
Philadelphia. 

The  quantity  and  quality  of  the  other  annuity-goods  issued  during 
my  visit  I  will  not  now  discuss,  but  I  must  enter  an  earnest  protest 
against  the  manner  in  which  the  whole  issue  was  made.  The  entire 
issue  for  the  year  was  made  in  a  few  hours  of  a  single  November  day, 
in  the  midst  of  a  snow-storm.  The  Indians  had  been  suffering  for  want 
of  their  blankets  and  other  clothing  during  the  cold  weather  which  pre 
ceded  the  issue,  and  there  is  no  good  reason  why  the  goods  should  not 
have  been  at  the  agency,  and  delivered,  at  least  a  month  earlier. 

The  issue  itself  was  made  in  the  most  careless  and  irresponsible 
manner.  The  goods  were  delivered  to  the  chiefs  of  bands  in  bulk,  in 
a  hasty  manner,  without  any  system  of  checks  to  ascertain  the  actual 
amounts  given  or  required.  The  only  data  by  which  the  issue  was 
regulated  was  a  pencil-memorandum  in  the  hands  of  the  agent,  who 
called  off  the  quantity  to  be  delivered  to  each  chief  or  headman.  Hence 
there  was  no  guarantee  that  the  Indians  received  even  half  of  the 
goods  intended  for  them.  The  Indians  watched  the  issue  with  sus 
picion,  and  several  of  the  chiefs  asserted  that  it  was  fraudulent. 

IV. — Frauds  in  beef -cattle. 

'The  frauds  perpetrated  in  supplying  the  Red  Cloud  agency  with  beef- 
cattle  have  been  so  gigantic,  and  so  long  and  systematically  continued, 


11 

that  it  is  well  worth  while  to  show  how  they  are  accomplished,  and  who 
is  responsible  for  the  outrage. 

The  contract  for  furnishing  cattle  to  this  and  other  Sioux  agencies  for 
the  last  fiscal  year  was  given  to  J.  K.  Foreman,  of  Omaha,  and  was 
signed  by  Indian  Commissioner  Smith,  July  14,  1874.  The  cattle 
delivered  were  required  to  average  850  pounds  for  the  first  six  months, 
and  1,000  pounds  for  the  last  six  months,  and  the  price  was  82.30J- 
per  100  pounds,  gross  weight,  on  the  hoof.  It  was  expressly  stipulated 
that  "All  the  beef  offered  for  acceptance  under  this  contract  shall  be 
subject  to  a  thorough  inspection,  and  if,  on  such  inspection,  any  of  it 
fails  to  conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall  be 
rejected  by  the  parties  making  the  inspection."  The  inspectors  were 
authorized,  in  such  a  case,  to  require  the  contractor  to  replace  the 
rejected  cattle  within  five  days  by  proper  beef.  If  not,  the  right  was 
reserved  to  purchase  the  cattle  required  at  the  expense  of  the  con 
tractor.  A  bond  of  $150,000,  with  two  good  and  sufficient  sureties, 
was  required  to  be  given,  to  insure  the  faithful  fulfillment  of  the  contract. 

There  is  abundant  evidence  that  this  contract  was  not  made  in  good 
faith.  The  contract  was  not  filled  by  the  party  to  whom  it  was  given, 
but  (like  too  many  Indian  contracts)  was  transferred  for  u  a  valuable 
consideration, "  a  few  days  after  it  was  signed,  to  W.  A.  Paxtou,  of 
Omaha.  As  this  assignment  could  not  take  place,  by  the  terms  of  the 
contract,  "  without  the  written  consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,'7 
the  full  responsibility  of  this  transfer  rests  with  him.  This  contract  was 
nominally  in  force  at  the  time  of  my  visit  to  Eed  Cloud  agency.  The 
real  beef-contractor,  however,  whom  I  found  supplying  this  agency,  was 
the  well-known  Bosler,  notorious  for  frauds  in  previous  contracts,  and 
for  this  reason  excluded  by  the  published  regulations  from  any  partici 
pation  in  future  contracts.  This  second  virtual  transfer  of  the  contract 
to  him  was  well  known  to  every  one  at  the  agency,  and  in  that  region, 
and  must,  have  been  equally  well  known  to  the  Interior  Department. 

On  my  arrival  at  the  agency,  November  9,  1874,  I  ascertained  that 
there  had  been  no  beef-issue  for  some  time, -and  only  seven  head  of  cattle 
were  then  remaining  over  from  previous  issues.  These  seven  cattle  had 
all  been  receipted  for  to  the  contractor,  received  by  the  agent,  and  were 
in  his  charge.  All,  or  nearly  all,  of  them  were  subsequently  issued  to 
the  Indians.  These  facts,  which  are  important,  I  learned  at  the  agency, 
and  they  were  fully  admitted  by  Agent  Saville  to  Eev.  S.  D.  Hinman, 
the  official  interpreter  of  the  Interior  Department,  and  myself,  in  Wash 
ington,  May  29.  These  were  the  cattle  examined,  at  Eed  Cloud's 
request,  by  General  Bradley  and  his  officers,  and  about  which  so  much 
has  been  said.  The  result  of  that  examination  is  given  in  the  following 
certificate,  the  original  of  which  is  in  my  possession : 

We,  the  undersigned,  officers  of  the  United  States  Army,  -were  present  at  an  inter 
view  held  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  on  the  llth  day  of  November,  1874,  between  Professor 
O.  C.  Marsh  and  Red  Cloud  and  Red  Dog,  and  now  bear  individual  testimony  as  to  the 
wretched  quality  of  the  rations,  and  to  the  undersize  and  puny  condition  of  seven  head 
of  beef-cattle,  (the  remainder  of  a  herd,)  which  were  shown  us  by  Red  Cloud  as  having 
been  issued  to  his  people  by  the  agent  there  stationed. 

Each  of  us,  unknown  to  the  other,  marked  at  that  time  his  estimate  of  the  gross 
weight  of  these  cattle,  and  remember  the  average  thereof  to  be  358  pounds  ;  Red  Cloud, 
two  other  Indians,  and  one  of  the  herders,  asserting  that  these  cattle  were  not  smaller 
than  those  turned  over  for  slaughter  at  any  ordinary  issue-day. 

Lieut.  Col.  Ninth  Infantry.  Commanding  District  Slack  Hills. 

JOHN  MIX, 

Captain  Second  Cavalry. 
LEONARD  HAY, 

First  Lieut.,  Adjutant  Ninth  Infantry,  A.  A.  A.  G.,  District  Black  Hills. 
FORT  LARAMIE,  W.  T.,  May  19, 1875. 


12 

This  certificate,  which  was  published  while  the  Sioux  delegation  was 
in  Washington,  fully  confirmed  ruy  own  statement  in  regard  to  the  same 
cattle,  and  is  entitled  to  great  weight,  as  these  officers  have  had  large 
experience  in  western  affairs,  and  are  perfectly  familiar  with  matters 
at  the  Sioux  agencies  in  the  Black  Hills  district.  The  Indian  Bureau 
immediately  endeavored  to  destroy  the  effect  of  this  testimony,  and  the 
method  adopted  so  well  illustrates  the  manner  in  which  that  Office 
receives  information  reflecting  on  the  management  of  its  affairs,  that  it 
is  worthy  of  record  here ;  especially  as  the  same  method  had  been  em 
ployed  to  weaken  the  force  of  the  facts  I  hfad  previously  laid  before  it 
about  affairs  at  the  same  agency. 

Commissioner  Smith  dictated  to  the  agent  of  the  Associated  Press, 
for  publication,  the  following  counter-statement,  which  was  widely  pub 
lished  the  next  day,  May  29  : 

Commissioner  Smith,  of  the  Indian  Bureau,  says,  in  regard  to  the  letter  of  General 
Bradley,  published  yesterday,  that  the  cattle  spoken  of  belonged  to  the  contractor ; 
that  they  were  sick,  some  of  them  with  broken  limbs,  and  that  they  were  not  issued  to 
the  Indians,  and  that  there  was  no  intention  of  issuing  them,  simply  because  they  were 
in  such  a  poor  and  sick  condition.  He  asserts  that  Red  Dog's  statement  was  incorrect, 
and  that  Red  Cloud  informed  him  this  morning  that  Red  Dog  lied  when  he  told  the 
story  to  General  Bradley  and  Professor  Marsh.  The  Commissioner  also  states  that  Gen 
eral  Bradley  could  have  satisfied  himself  of  this  fact  by  a  slight  inquiry  of  the  herdman 
or  contractor,  if  he  had  desired  to  do  so. 

As  this  reply  contained  some  statements  which  I  knew  to  be  erroneous, 
I  at  once  endeavored  to  ascertain  the  exact  truth  about  these  cattle.  In 
company  with  Eev.  S.  D.  Hinman,  the  official  interpreter  of  the  Interior 
Department,  I  called  upon  Agent  Saville,  May  29,  at  his  hotel,  and  asked 
him  about  the  cattle  examined  by  General  Bradley  and  the  other  officers. 
Agent  Saville  said  that  "  these  cattle  did  not  belong  to  the  contractor, 
but  to  the  Government ;  that  he  had  accepted  them  from  the  contractor 
and  given  receipts  for  all  of  them,  and  they  were  in  his  charge;  that 
subsequently  all  except  two  of  them  were  issued  by  him  to  the  Indians ; 
that  these  cattle  were  not  sick,  and  none  of  them  had  broken  legs ;  and 
that  they  were  the  only  cattle  at  the  agency  when  General  Bradley  was 
there.'7  I  also  called  on  Eed  Cloud  himself,  and  he  positively  denied 
that  he  had  held  any  conversation  whatever  with  Commissioner  Smith, 
about  these  cattle  that  morning,  as  stated;  and  I  subsequently  learned 
by  inquiry  of  all  of  the  Sioux  interpreters  then  in  the  city,  through 
whom  alone  such  a  conversation  could  be  held,  that  Eed  Cloud  had  no 
such  conversation  with  Commissioner  Smith.  Eed  Cloud  also  told  me 
that  he  "must  have  been  misunderstood  in  the  council  of  Friday,  (May 
28.)  He  did  not  mean  to  say  that  these  cattle  had  been  rejected  by  the 
agent,  but  simply  that  at  the  time  General  Bradley  saw  them  they  had 
not  been  issued  to  the  Indians,  but  had  been  left  over  from  a  former 
issue."  This  testimony  fairly  disposes  of  the  explanation  attempted  on 
this  point  by  Commissioner  Smith. 

On  the  morning  of  November  14,  while  I  was  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency, 
Mr.  Bosler,  one  of  the  contractors,  brought  to  the  agency  a  herd  of  sev 
eral  hundred  head  of  Texas  cattle,  the  first  that  had  been  received  for 
some  weeks  previous.  This  lot  was  accepted  by  the  agent  and  receipted 
for,  but  he  only  weighed  a  portion  of  the  herd.  These  cattle  I  saw  and 
carefully  examined.  Major  A.  S.  Burt,  of  the  Ninth  Infantry,  who  com 
manded  the  escort  to  my  expedition,  was  with  me  at  the  time,  and  also 
examined  them  with  care.  They  were  the  poorest  lot  of  Texas  cattle  I 
have  ever  seen  during  ail  my  experience  in  the  West,  where  I  have  seen 
many  hundreds  of  herds,  at  various  points  between  this  agency  and 
Southern  Kansas,  and  have  myself  purchased  many  animals  for  the  use 


13 

of  my  expeditions.  All  the  cattle  in  this  herd  were  wretchedly  gaunt 
and  thin,  and  the  majority  of  them  were  small,  many  being  yearlings. 
A  large  number  were  of  the  kind  known  among  cattle-men  as  "  scala 
wags,'7  and  not  a  few  were  weak  and  decrepit.  I  noticed  the  character 
of  these  cattle  particularly,  because  the  beef  issued  at  this  agency  had 
been  the  subject  of  several  conversations  between  Red  Cloud,  General 
Bradley,  and  myself,  and  I  was  desirous  of  knowing  with  certainty 
whether  the  statements  of  the  chief  on  this  point  were  true.  In  the 
afternoon  of  the  same  day  that  the  cattle  were  received,  Koveinber  14, 
I  witnessed,  in  company  with  Major  A.  S.  Burt,  the  issue  of  beef,  when 
a  large  portion  of  these  cattle  was  delivered  to  the  Indians.  This  deliv 
ery  was  made  from  the  agency  corral,  and  the  cattle  were  turned  out,  a 
small  number  at  a  time,  to  the  chiefs  or  headmen,  who  were  waiting 
with  their  mounted  young  warriors  to  pursue  and  kill  them.  I  watched 
this  issue  with  much  interest  from  first  to  last,  and  saw  every  one  of  the 
cattle  that  were  turned  over  to  the  Indians,  as  well  as  the  remainder  of 
the  herd,  retained  for  a  subsequent  issue.  I  am  confident  that  the  aver 
age  weight  of  this  herd  was  not  more  than  750  pounds,  and  this  I  regard 
as  a  liberal  estimate. 

Major  Burt  was  by  roy  side  during  the  issue,  and  saw  all  of  these 
cattle.  His  testimony  is  especially  important,  as  he  has  long  been  sta 
tioned  in  the  West,  and  is  perfectly  familiar  with  the  subject  of  which 
he  speaks.  His  opinion  of  the  cattle  we  examined  can  be  learned  from 
the  following  extract  from  a  certificate  relating  to  affairs  at  Eed  Cloud 
agency : 

FORT  LARAMIE,  WYOMING  TER.,  June  12, 1875. 

I  certify  that  I  was  present  last  fall,  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  when  Professor  0.  C. 
Marsh  was  there;  that  we  together  went  to  the  corral  to  see  an  issue  of  cattle  to  the 
Indians;  that  the  cattle  we  saw  at  that  time  were  Texas  cattle  in  miserable  condition, 
some  of  them  so  weak  the  Indians  could  not  goad  them  out  of  a  walk.  The  cattle 
were,  as  a  rule,  small  in  size. 

******* 

A.  S.  BURT, 
Captain  Xinth  Infantry. 

In  this  region  the  cattle  should  be  in  good  condition  at  this  season  of 
the  year,  if  ever,  yet  the  -cattle  of  this  herd  were  so  wretchedly  poor 
that  even  the  contractor,  Mr.  Bosler,  deemed  it  necessary  to  apologize 
for  them.  In  explanation  of  their  condition,  he  informed  me  that  he 
had  been  obliged  to  overdrive  them,  so  as  to  reach  the  agency  in  time 
for  the  issue..  I  subsequently  learned  that  this  was  a  standing  excuse, 
when  persons  not  directly  interested  in  Indian  affairs  witnessed  a  cattle- 
delivery. 

Essentially  the  same  excuse  for  the  inferior  character  of  these  cattle  was 
made  by  Agent  Saville  in  Washington,  June  1,  1875,  ivyheri  questioned 
by  Bishop  W.  H.  Hare,  in  my  presence,  in  regard  to  this 'particular  issue. 
Agent  Saville  then  stated  "  that  the  poor  condition  of  these  cattle  was 
owing  to  hard  driving  some  forty-eight  hours,  with  little  grass  or  sleep, 
to  hurry  them  through,  as  the  Indians  had  had  no  beef  for  some  time, 
he  having  kept  back  rations  to  induce  them  to  be  counted.    These  cattle 
arrived  in  the  morning,  and  he  weighed  most  of  them  the  same  fore 
noon.     Some  few  that  were  wild  he  did  not  weigh,  but  estimated, 
issue  was  made  on  the  same  afternoon  of  the  receipt.    Among  the  catt. 
then  issued  were  forty  or  more  small  and  i  scalawag ?  cattle.    Agent 
Saville  was  confident  that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh , 
pounds  on  an  average/7    On  my  questioning  this  he  insisted  that 
he  weighed  came  up  to  that  average,  and  that  those  estimated  wei 


14 


fully  as  large.  He  himself  weighed  all  of  the  herd  that  were  weighed 
on  the  morning  they  arrived.'7  Memoranda  of  these  statements  of  Agent 
Saville  were  taken  down  at  the  time  by  both  Bishop  Hare  and  myself, 
and  at  a  subsequent  conference  were  found  to  agree. 

As  I  was  confident  that  the  weight  of  this  herd  of  cattle  did  not  ex 
ceed  750  pounds  average,  this  positive  statement  of  Agent  Saville  to 
Bishop  Hare,  that  the  actual  weight  of  the  cattle  reached  an  average 
of  850  pounds  each,  as  weighed  by  him,  increased  my  suspicion  that  the 
whole  transaction  was  fraudulent.  I  was  not  prepared,  however,  for 
the  evidence  which  I  found  in  the  Second  Auditor's  office  of  the  Treas 
ury  Department,  where  the  receipts  are  filed  as  vouchers  for  the  pay 
ment  to  the  contractor.  I  there  ascertained  that  Agent  Saville  had 
given  a  receipt  for  this  same  herd  of  701  head  of  diminutive  cattle,  in 
which  he  certified  that  their  actual  weight,  as  weighed  by  him,  was 
731,485  pounds,  ivliicli  would  make  the  average  exceed  1,043  pounds  per 
liead.  More  than  this,  I  found  that,  according  to  Agent  Saville's  receipts, 
all  the  cattle  received  during  the  same  quarter  of  1874  had  reached 
nearly  the  same  average,  or  more  than  1,040  pounds  each.  As  this  is  a 
matter  of  great  importance,  I  here  give  the  official  statement,  as  fur 
nished  by  the  Treasury  Department : 

Schedule  of  beef-cattle  delivered  at  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency  during  the  fourth  quarter  of 
1874,  as  appears  by  accounts  of  W.  A.  Paxton  on  file  in  this  office. 


Date. 

Head. 

Weight, 
pounds. 

Furnished  by. 

October  1  1874  

663 

691  509 

W  A  Paxton 

October  20  1874 

758 

783  672 

W^  A  Paxton 

November  14  1874 

701 

731  485 

W  A  Paxton 

December  3  1874 

597 

621  447 

W"  ^  Paxton 

Total  

2  719 

2  828  113 

The  foregoing  is  a  correct  statement,  as  appears  by  the  records  of  this  office. 

E.  B.  FRENCH,  Auditor. 
SECOND  AUDITOR'S  OFFICE,  June  7, 1875. 

In  other  words,  this  large  herd  of  cattle,  which  no  one  could  fairly 
estimate  at  a  greater  average  weight  per  head  than  750  pounds,  and 
which  both  the  agent  and  contractor  apologized  for  as  being  much  infe 
rior  to  their  regular  issues,  and  which  Agent  Saville  only  claimed  to  have 
weighed  850  pounds,  were  charged  to  the  Government  by  that  official 
as  weighing  more  than  1,043  pounds  each,  and  the  contractor  actually 
received  pay  at  that  rate. 

Of  the  cattle  received  during  this  quarter,  other  than  the  abov 
have  no  personal  knowledge,  but,  from  all  I  could  learn  from  those  who 
had  seen  them,  they  were  no  better  than  the  herd  I  examined,  which 
Ked  Cloud  in  Washington  pronounced  a  good  one,  and  superior  to  inost 
of  those  received.  I  think  it  would  be  safe  to  say  that  the  cattle 
received  for  that  whole  quarter  did  not  exceed  800  pounds  average,  and 
yet  Agent  Saville  receipted  for  them  to  the  contractor  at  over  1,040 
pounds. 

These  frauds  in  weights,  which  are  consummated  by  direct  collusion 
between  the  agent  and  contractor,  and  through  which  both  the  Indians 
and  the  Government  are  so  greatly  defrauded,  form  only  part  of  the 
general  system  of  theft.  I  have  reason  to  believe  that  equal  rascality 
is  practiced  in  regard  to  the  number  of  cattle.  For  example  :  there  is 
conclusive  evidence  that  the  only  cattle  at  the  agency  November  11, 
1874,  were  the  seven  head  of  puny  animals  examined  by  General 


15 

Bradley ;  yet,  according  to  the  provision  returns  of  Agent  Saville  for 
the  4th  quarter  of  1874,  now  on  file  in  the  Interior  Department,  he 
should  have  had  184,905'pounds,  or,  according  to  his  official  receipts, 
179  head.  It  has  been  shown  above,  however,  that  the  beef -issue  which 
he  claimed  to  have  made  November  8  did  not  take  place.  Hence, 
he  should  have  had  on  November  11,  at  least  446,427  pounds  of  beef,  or 
about  430  head  of  cattle,  when  he  actually  had  only  seven ! 

The  various  beef  transactions  took  place  under  the  contract  assi'gned 
to  W.  A.  Paxton,  well  known  to  be  merely  the  agent  of  Bosler,  who 
personally  filled  the  contract.  Although  this  contract  had  been  violated 
in  all  its  important  features,  and  shameful  frauds  practiced  in  its  fulfill 
ment,  Commissioner  Smith  did  not  call  on  the  bondsmen  of  the  con 
tractor  for  satisfaction,  as  the  law  required  him  to  do,  but,  on  March 
17,  1875,  privately  made  a  new  contract  with  the  same  W.  A.  Paxton 
(or  in  reality  with  Bosler)  to  supply  beef  for  the  same  Bed  Cloud 
agency  at  a  much  higher  price  ($3.00  per  100  pounds)  than  this  con 
tractor  had  originally  bound  himself  to  do.  This  contract  was  illegal, 
as  it  was  given  by  the  Commissioner  without  advertising  for  proposals. 
The  bond  required  in  this  contract  was  $40,000.  How  the  contract  was 
carried  out  will  be  seen  from  the  testimony  of  Lieut.  W.  L.  Carpenter 
and  others  given  below. 

Lieutenant  Carpenter  was  with  me  on  my  expedition  in  November, 
and  was  subsequently  stationed  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  where  he  had 
the  best  opportunity  to  observe  the  whole  management  of  affairs.  Mr. 
Louis  Eeshaw  (Richard)  was  also  at  the  agency,  and  intimately 
acquainted  with  what  transpired  there.  Both  were  present  at  cattle- 
issues  in  May  last,  and  the  results  of  their  observation  are  embodied 
in  their  certificates  here  given : 

I  certify  that  on  or  about  the  13th  day  of  May,  1875,  I  witnessed  an  issue  of  beef- 
cattle  to  the  Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  Nebraska.  That  the  cattle  then  issued 
were  wretchedly  poor,  and  about  one  half  of  them  ridiculously  small.  Out  of  about 
200  head  which  I  saw  killed  at  that  time,  there  were  but  three  oxen  which  would  be 
accepted  by  an  Army  commissary  for  issue  to  troops.  There  were  many  yearlings 
in  the  herd,  which  would  not  net  two  hundred  (200)  Ibs.  of  beef;  and  to  the  best  of 
rny  knowledge  and  belief,  the  entire  herd  would  not  average  seven  hundred  and  fifty 
(750)  Ibs.  gross  weight. 

W.  L.  CARPENTER, 

1st  Lieutenant  9th  Infantry. 

Camp  near  Trinidad,  Colorado,  June  22,  1875.  , 

WASHINGTON,  June  5,  1875. 

I  hereby  certify  that  I  was  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  at  the  first  beef-issue  in  May,  1875, 
and  that  of  the  cattle  then  issued  to  the  Indians  more  than  one-third  were  yearlings. 
I  have  full  knowledge  of  this  fact  as  I  bought  of  the  Indians  over  sixty  hides  of  the 
cattle  issued  at  thab  time.  The  remainder  of  the  cattle  left  after  this  issue  were  all 
small,  and  not  larger  than  those  issued. 

In  the  above  issue  no  allowance  was  made  to  the  Indians  for  the  small  cattle 
delivered,  all  counting  alike. 

It  will  be  remembered  that  the  contractor  received  a  much  higher 
price  for  these  cattle  than  for  those  previously  delivered,  and  that  the 
contract  called  for  "  good  merchantable  beef-cattle,  averaging  850 
pounds,"  and  that,  li  if  any  cattle  offered  for  acceptance  should  tail  to 
conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall  be  rejected 
by  the  agent."  The  above  certificates  show  the  kind  of  cattle  actually 
delivered  under  this  contract.  The  kind  of  cattle  paid  for  by  the 
Government  is  indicated  by  the  following  extract  from  the  records  o: 
the  office  of  the  Second  Auditor  of  the  Treasury,  which  is  taken  from 


16 


the  official  receipts  given  by  the  agent  to  the  contractor  on  which  the 
latter  receives  pay.  It  will  be  observed  that  the  general  average  for 
the  whole  lot  is  over  1,026  pounds. 

Memoranda  of  beef-cattle  delivered  at  the  Eed  Cloud  Indian  agency,  commencing  January  1, 
1875,  as  appears  by  accounts  on  file  in  this  Office. 


Date. 

By  whom  furnished. 

Xumber 
of  head. 

Gross  weight. 

January  1  1875 

W.  A.  Paxton 

641 

668  57* 

February  1  1875  

W.  A.  Paxton  

437 

451,  203 

February  17  1875 

W  A.  Paxton 

467 

486  114 

March  1  1875  

W.  A.  Paxtoii  

96 

99  303 

March  25  1875 

W  A  Paxton 

539 

555  210 

April  1  1875  

W.  A.  Paxton  

583 

589  061 

April  21  1875                                           » 

W  A  Paxton 

584 

585  115 

Total 

3  347 

3  434  584 

SECOND  AUDITOR'S  OFFICE,  July  8, 1875.* 

Another  fruitful  source  of  fraud  in  cattle  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  is  the 
system  of  stampeding,  which  appears  to  have  been  practiced  there,  at 
least,  since  the  present  agent  took  charge.  A  stampede  of  Texas  cattle 
may  result  from  various  causes,  and  the  natural  result  of  a  stampede  of 
the  agency  herd  would  be  their  immediate  return  to  the  contractor's  herd 
from  which  they  were  driven.  While  at  the  agency  in  November,  1874, 
I  heard  that  a  stampede  of  this  kind  had  taken  place  a  few  months 
before.  The  particulars  of  this  stampede  I  afterward  learned  from 
various  persons — among  them  Louis  Keshaw,  who  was  familiar  with  the 
circumstances,  and  testifies  to  the  facts  in  the  following  certificate  : 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  June  5, 1875. 

I  hereby  certify  that  in  the  summer  of  1874  the  herd  of  cattle  at  the  Red  Cloud 
agency,  which  had  been  received  by  the  agent  from  the  contractor,  stampeded,  and 
most  of  them,  over  a  hundred  in  number,  went  back  to  the  contractor's  herd,  on  the 
Platte.  These  same  cattle  were  afterward  driven  to  the  agency,  and  were  receipted  for 
a  second  time  by  the  agent.  The  contractor's  herder  offered  to  sell  me  those  cattle  at 
§10  per  head  before  he  drove  them  back  to  the  agency. 

LOUIS  KESHAW. 

From  such  stampedes,  and  the  fraudulent  results  following,  both  the 
Indians  and  the  Government  have  suffered  great  losses. 

V. — Porlc  issued  at  the  agency. 

Maj.  A.  S.  Burt  and  myself  were  at  the  issue  of  provisions  November 
15,  1874,  and,  among  other  things,  saw  and  examined  the  pork  that  was 
delivered.  The  method  employed  in  distributing  this  article  to  the  In 
dians  was  characteristic  of  the  management  of  affairs  at  this  agency. 
The  barrels  of  pork  were  rolled  out  of  the  warehouse  by  one  of  the 
agency  employes,  the  heads  of  the  barrels  knocked  in  with  an  ax,  and 
the  contents  turned  upon  the  ground.  The  pieces  of  pork  were  then 
given  to  the  Indians,  who  were  waiting  around,  without  being  weighed 
or  any  other  means  adopted  to  insure  a  just  distribution.  This  pork  I 
examined,  and  found  it  old  and  strong.  Some  of  it,  at  least,  was  rusty 
and  unfit  for  human  food.  On  this  point  Major  Burt,  in  a  certificate 
which  he  has  recently  sent  me,  states  as  follows :  "  I  observed  the  pork 
given  to  the  Indians  ;  it  was  lean,  rusty  stuff,  unfit  for  anybody's  use." 

*  A  few  days  after  this  date,  the  receipts  for  the  next  two  lots  of  cattle  received  were  sent  to  the 
Second  Auditor's  Office.  The  official  account  is  as  follows :  "  May  14th,  1875,  608  head,  weighing  596,021 
pounds;  May  29th,  1875,  371  head,  weighing  361,927  pounds."  The  average  for  the  whole  numher  ex 
ceeds  973  pounds.  Part  of  these  cattle  were  those  examined  by  Lieutenant  Carpenter. 


17 

The  Indians  received  tins  pork  ration  with  evident  disgust.  Most  of 
them  merely  cut  off  the  outer  thin  layer  of  fat,  and  threw  the  rest  away 
on  the  spot.  In  one  of  the  recent  councils  in  Washington,  Eed  Cloud 
earnestly  complained  of  the  pork  issued  to  him  and  his  people,  and  said 
that  he  thought  some  of  the  children  had  died  from  eating  it.  After 
this  particular  issue,  the  Indians  so  strongly  objected  to  the  quality  of 
this  pork  that  the  fact  was  reported  by  the  agent  to  the  Department  in 
Washington.  The  contract  under  which  this  wretched  pork  was  fur 
nished  to  the  Indians  was  given  to  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  Kansas  City 

well-known  as  a  favorite  contractor  of  the  Interior  Department — and 
was  signed  by  Commissioner  Smith  July  11,  1874.  It  contained  the 
usual  phrases  "that  the  article  furnished  should  be  subjected  to  a 
thorough  inspection  and  careful  comparison  with  the  samples  thereof;'7 
and  the  usual  bond  was  required.  The  price  paid  v,  as  821  per  barrel. 

VI. — Flour  Issued  at  the  agency. 

My  attention  was  called  to  the  flour  rations  at  this  agency  by  Red 
Cloud  himself,  and  this  was  one  of  the  samples  he  gave  me  to  take  to 
Washington.  A  few  days  afterward,  I  saw  the  issue  of  provisions  at 
the  agency,  and  my  attention  was  again  attracted  to  the  subject  by  see 
ing  a  sack  of  flour,  which  an  Indian  woman  had  just  received  and  was 
carrying  away,  burst  open,  and  part  of  its  contents  fall  on  the  ground. 
This  flour  was  dark  in  color,  and  adhesive  to  the  touch,  although  it  had 
not  been  wet,  and  inferior  in  quality.  The  flour  was  in  a  single  sack, 
without  any  brand  whatever.  I  afterward  saw  in  the  warehouse,  appa 
rently  put  up  in  the  same  way,  and  entirely  without  brands,  a  consider 
able  number  of  sacks,  although  the  contract  especially  stipulated  that 
the  flour  was  to  be  "  fresh  ground,  of  XX  quality,  to  be  made  wholly 
from  good,  sound  wheat,  and  to  be  delivered  in  good,  strong  double  sacks, 
each  sack  to  be  branded  'Indian  Department  Flour."7  On  none  of  the 
flour  that  I  saw  in  the  warehouse  did  I  observe  any  inspector's  brands, 
although  some  of  the  sacks  may  have  had  such  marks  without  my 
noticing  them. 

I  afterward  saw  flour  in  three  different  Indian  lodges,  and  all  appeared 
to  be  of  the  same  quality  as  that  I  saw  issued  at  the  agency,  and  essen 
tially  the  same  as  the  sample  Eed  Cloud  had  given  me,  although  I  made 
no  direct  comparison  between  the  two.  As  the  fairness  of  the  latter,  as 
a  sample  of  the  flour  issued  at  the  agency,  was  subsequently  questioned 
by  Commissioner  Smith  and  others  responsible  for  Indian  management, 
I  have  taken  considerable  pains  to  ascertain  the  quality  of  the  flour  fur 
nished  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  under  the  contract  which  was  in  force 
during  the  last  half  of  1874,  when  my  visit  was  made,  and  during  the 
first  half  of  the  present  year.  This  contract  was  given  to  J.  H.  Martin, 
of  Denver,  and  was  signed  by  Commissioner  Smith,  July  11, 1874.  The 
flour  was  to  be  delivered  in  Cheyenne  at  the  rate  of  $2.50  per  hundred 
pounds,  a  bond  of  $10,000  being  given  to  insure  a  faithful  performance 
of  the  contract.  I  learn  from  good  authority  that  this  contract  could 
not  be  honestly  tilled,  according  to  the  accepted  sample,  at  the  price  paid. 

The  contract  required  "that  the  flour  offered  for  acceptance  under  this 
contract  shall  be  subjected  to  a  thorough  inspection,  and  careful  com 
parison  with  the  sample  thereof  which  has  been  adopted;  and  if,  on 
such  comparison  and  inspection,  any  of  the  flour  fails  to  conform  to  or 


2  I  F 


18 

1874-'75.  This  is  a  totally  different  article  in  appearance  from  the  flour 
[  saw  issued  to  the  Indians  at  the  agency,  and  in  use  in  the  lodges,  and 
110  one  could  mistake  the  one  for  the  other.  This  sample  of  floiTr  is  the 
uly  sample,  of  all  the  supplies  purchased  last  year,  that  the  Depart 
ment  retained,  by  which  to  compare  the  supplies  actually  delivered  to 
the  Indians,  and  thus  prevent  fraud.  The  reason  why  this  natural  pre 
caution  against  frauds  has  not  been  taken  remains  for  the  Department 
ot  the  Interior  to  explain. 

Some  of  the  first  flour  delivered  under  this  contract,  a  lot  of  2,000 
sacks,  or  200,000  pounds,  reached  Cheyenne  in  August,  1874.  This  lot 
flour,  more  than  one-third  of  the  whole  year's  supply  for  Eed  Cloud 
agency,  was  not  inspected,  as  required.  I  am  informed  that  Dr.  Irwin, 
agent  ior  the  Shoshone  Indians,  who  was  then  in  Cheyenne,  detected  the 
Daq  quality  of  that  flour,  and  telegraphed  the  Department  that  the  trans 
action  was  a  fraud.  Agent  Saville  was  at  Cheyenne  at  this  time,  and  he 
has  since  informed  Bishop  Hare  and  myself  that  he  was  ordered  bv  Com 
missioner  Smith  to  send  the  flour  on  to  the  agency ;  a  sample  of  it,  merely, 
to  be  retained  by  a  citizen  of  Cheyenne,  a  leading  member  there  of 
Indian  ring,  and  who,  as  I  am  credibly  informed,  has  since  been 
under  two  indictments  for  attempting  to  bribe  United  States  officials, 
mis  action  on  the  part  of  Commissioner  Smith  would  seem  to  indicate 
ttis  own  affinity  with  the  Indian  ring. 

^  Early  in  September,  1874,  Maj.  A.  K  Long,  of  the  United  States 
Commissary  Department,  was  appointed  inspector  at  Cheyenne.  In  a 
recent  communication,  dated  June  19,  1875,  he  states,  "that  when  he 
began  his  duties  there  remained  of  the  above  lot  of  flour  twenty-seven 
sacks,  which  he  immediately  rejected,  but  it  was  afterward  shipped  to 
Ived  Cloud  agency  by  the  store-keeper— as  the  latter  saicly  by  mistake.7' 
Major  Long  states,  also,  "  that  he  rejected  a  great  deal  of  flour  at  first ; 
then  the  grade  became  better;  and  that  he  rejected  some  flour  that 
Barclay  White,  superintendent  of  Indian  affairs,  had  iaspecteil  and 
passed  at  Omaha." 

In  Agent  Saville's  interview  with  Bishop  Hare,  in  Washington,.  June 
1,  at  which  1  was  present,  the  agent  stated  "that  subsequent  to  the 
receipt  of  the  above  lot  of  flour,  some  two  hundred  sacks  of  dark  flour, 
inspected,  at  Omaha,  by  Barclay  White,  came  to  the  Bed  Cloud  agency 
without  being  inspected  at  Cheyenne.  This  was  very  poor  flour,  and 
was  issued  about  the  time  of  my  visit,  and  he  thought  the  flour  I  saw 
there  was  part  of  this  lot." 

This  testimony  from  observers  whose  official  duty  it  wa-&  to  examine 
the  character  of  the  flour  for  Red  Cloud  agency,  effectually,  disposes  of 
the  statement  which  the  Indian  Commissioner  gave  to  the  Associated 
Press  in  contradiction  of  my  first  presentation  of  the  case  at  Washing 
ton.  The  explanation  of  the  Commissioner,  which  was  published  May 
3,  was  as  follows : 

It  is  stated  at  the  Indian  Bureau,  with  reference  to  the  complaints  concerning  sup 
plies  furnished  to  the  Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  that  all  the  flour  sent  there 
was  inspected,  at  Cheyenne,  by  Major  Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United 
States  Army,  and  passed  by  him  as  equal  to  the  accepted  sample*  It  is,  therefore, 
claimed  that  the  samples  of  inferior  flour  brought  here  by  Professor  Marsh,  at  the 
request  of  Red  Cloud,  were  of  some  old  issue,  or,  like  the  specimens  of  sugar  and 
tobacco,  had  been  damaged  by  exposure  to  the  weather  while  in  the  Indians'  pos 
session. 

Essentially  the  same  statement  was  previously  made  to  me  by  Com 
missioner  Smith,  and  this  discouraged  me  from  giving  him  furthei 
information  about  mismanagement  in  Indian  affairs. 


19 
VII. — Sugar  and  coffee. 

The  supplies  of  sugar  and  coffee  at  this  agency  I  know  comparatively 
little  about.  Bed  Cloud  gave  me  a  sample  of  each,  which  he  said  were 
such  as  he  was  then  using,  and  Red  Dog  stated  essentially  the  same 
thing.  I  saw  both  of  these  articles  issued  to  the  Indians  November  15 
1874,  but  only  noticed  the  sugar  particularly.  It  was  dark  in  color' 
moist,  and  of  low  grade.  I  did  not  compare  this  directly  with  the 
sample  Red  Cloud  had  given  me,  but  I  have  no  doubt  the  two  were 
from  the  same  lot,  and  virtually  of  the  same  quality.  The  coffee  I  did 
not  see  in  bulk,  but  drank  some  of  it  as  prepared  at  a  feast  in  one  of 
the  lodges.  This  was  certainly  very  inferior  coffee,  and  not  unlike  such 
as  I  imagine  Red  Cloud's  sample  would  make. 

VIII.— Tobacco. 

The  character  of  the  tobacco  furnished  the  Indians  at  this  agency 
has  been  a  matter  of  considerable  discussion,  and  justly  so,  as  this 
article  is  regarded  by  the  Indians  as  an  important  part  of  their  rations. 
Both  Red  Cloud  and  Red  Dog  complained  on  this  point  at  the  first 
council  I  held  with  them,  and  one  of  the  samples  Red  Cloud  gave  me 
was  a  specimeu  of  the  tobacco  he  was  then  using.  This  specimen  at 
tracted  much  attention  among  the  officers  in  our  camp,  and  led  us  to 
observe  the  quality  in  use  among  the  Indians.  All  the  tobacco  we  saw 
was  vile  stuff,  dark  in  color,  and  much  of  it  was  saturated  with  a  dark, 
viscous  liquid.  I  saw  the  tobacco  issued  to  the  Indians  November  15, 
but  only  noticed  that  it  was  dark  in  color.  I  subsequently  saw  the 
tobacco  used  by  Red  Cloud,  Red  Dog,  and  Man  afraid-ot'-his-horses,  and 
in  one  council  smoked  the  tobacco  placed  by  Red  Cloud  in  his  own 
pipe.  All  of  this  agreed,  apparently,  with  the  sample  he  gave  me,  and 
I  have  no  doubt  this  sample  fairly  represented  the  tobacco  issued  to 
the  Indians  during  my  visit.  Some  of  the  officers  who  were  with  me 
at  the  agency  looked  into  this  subject  with  still  more  care,  and  their 
opinion  on  this  point  coincides  with  my  own.  None  of  the  tobacco  we 
saw  was  of  much  service  to  the  Indians,  who  use  the  article  only  for 
smoking. 

IX. — Suffering  of  the  Indians  during  the  past  winter. 

The  suffering  among  the  Indians  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the 
past  winter  was  very  great.  No  small  part  of  it  could  have  been  pre 
vented  by  good  management,  while  the  greater  portion  must  have  been 
the  result  of  the  direct  dishonesty  which  I  have  shown  to  exist.  • 

The  Indians  had  already  suffered  from  cold  before  the  annuity -.goods 
were  issued,  November  12,  1874.  In  consequence  of  this  late  delivery, 
they  had  no  time  to  supplement  the  small  number  of  blankets  issued 
with  buffalo-robes  before  the  winter  set  in.  In  less  than  a  week  after 
the  issue,  just  as  I  started  from  the  agency  on  my  expedition,  the 
weather  became  extremely  cold,  the  thermometer  falling  to  15°  below 
zero;  and  as  many  of  the  Indians  received  no  blankets  at  all,  and  most 
of  those  who  did  receive  them  found  them  too  small  to  protect  them  from 
cold,  the  suffering  was  great.  One  of  the  chiefs,  whom  I  had  engaged 
before  the  issue  to  accompany  me,  informed  me,  after  the  delivery,  that 
he  could  not  go,  being  compelled,  on  account  of  the  insufficiency  of 
blankets,  to  the  hunt  for  buffalo,  as  otherwise  his  family  would  suffer 
greatly  during  the  hard  winter  he  said  was  coming.  During  the  ex- 


20 

treinely  cold  winter  that  followed,  many  of  these  Indians,  as  is  now  well 
known,  narrowly  escaped  freezing. 

The  suffering  for  want  of  food  during  the  past  winter  and  spring  is 
known  to  have  been  general  among  the  Indians  at  this  agency.  I  have 
evidence  on  this  point  from  several  sources,  among  others  from  Col.  T. 
H.  Stanton,  paymaster  of  the  Army,  whose  duties  called  him  to  the 
agency.  Another  Army  officer  who  has  given  me  information  on  this 
subject  is  Lieut.  W.  L.  Carpenter,  who  was  stationed  there  all  winter. 
In  a  letter  written  at  the  agency,  in  April  last,  he  says:  uThe  Indians 
are  all  quiet  now.  The  poor  wretches  have  been  several  times  this 
winter  on  the  verge  of  starvation,  through  the  rascality  of  the  Indian 
ring.  They  have  been  compelled  to  eat  dogs,  wolves,  and  ponies."  The 
supply  of  food  purchased  by  the  Government:,  carefully  and  honestly  de 
livered,  would  have  prevented  all  tbis  suffering. 

X. — Freight-contract  from  Cheyenne  to  agency. 

The  goods  and  supplies  for  Red  Cloud  agency  are  all  transported  by 
wagon  from  Cheyenne,  on  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  and  hence  the 
freight-con  tract  tor  this  route  is  a  very  important  one.  Mr.  D.  J.McCanu, 
a  well-known  member  of  the  Indian  ring,  has  had  this  contract  since  the 
present  agency  was  established,  and  the  official  distance  from  Cheyenne 
to  this  point,  as  allowed  by  the  Interior  Department,  is  212  miles.  The 
price  paid  for  freight  during  the  last  fiscal  year  was  $1.10  per  hundred 
pounds  for  each  hundred  miles,  and  the  previous  year  $1.75  per  hun 
dred  pounds  was  paid.  This  allowed  distance  of  212  miles  was  well 
known  to  be  largely  in  excess  of  the  true  distance,  and  yet  no  effort 
seems  to  have  been  made  by  the  Interior  Department  to  ascertain  the 
correct  distance,  although  its  attention  had  been  called  to  the  subject 
in  1873.  In  the  mean  time,  the  Laud-Office  of  the  Interior  Department 
has  been  surveying  this  same  region,  and  had  the  Indian  Bureau  of  the 
same  Department  desired  to  know  the  exact,  or  even  approximate,  dis 
tance,  it  could  readily  have  obtained  official  information  on  that  point. 
In  Xovember  last,  while  I  was  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  Mr.  J.  W. 
Hammond,  assistant  to  the  surveyor  general  of  Wyoming,  surveyed  the 
route  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  informed  me  that  it 
was  only  115  miles,  and  his  official  survey  is  now  on  record  in  Cheyenne. 

It  thus  appears  that  the  Indian  Bureau  has  for  years,  knowingly,  paid 
to  a  member  of  the  Indian  ring  over  fifteen  thousand  dollars  per  annum 
lor  service  that  was  not  performed. 

think  it  fairly  follows,  from  the  evidence  I  have  now  presented,  that 
he  samples  of  rations  Red  Cloud  gave  me  to  show  to  you  represent 
the  average  quality  of  the  supplies  issued  to  his  people,  at  least  during 
he  time  of  my  visit;  that  this  chief's  complaints  of  his  agent,  which 
I  brought  to  you,  were  literally  true;  and  that  the  frauds  in  annuity- 
goods  and  beef-cattle,  which  he  declared  to  exist,  were  not  overstated. 
The  great  difficulty  in  ascertaining  the  extent  of  these  frauds,  or  even 
in  making  any  investigation,  is  largely  due  to  the  fact  that  the  Interior 
Department  has  retained  none  of  the  original  samples  on  which  the 
purchases  for  Indians  were  made  during  the  last  fiscal  year;  the  only 
sample  known  to  the  Department  to  exist  being  that  of  flour,  at  Chey 
enne,  where  gross  frauds  have  been  committed.    This  difficulty  is  fur 
ther  increased  by  the  failure  of  the  Indian  Bureau  to  transmit  the 
accounts  of  Agent  Saville  for  the  last  year  to  the  Treasury  Department, 
as  required  by  law. 
The  responsibility  for  all  this  mismanagement  and  fraud  should  rest 


21 

with  Secretary  Delano  aiid  Commissioner  Smith,  who  have  long  known 
of  the  abuses  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  No  less  than  five  special  commis 
sioners,  or  other  officials,  appointed  and  paid  by  the  Department  of  the 
Interior,  had  personally  investigated  this  agency  before  my  visit,  and 
given  that  Department  information  indicating  the  bad  state  of  affairs 
there. 

A  portion  of  the  responsibility  for  the  inferior  goods  and  supplies  pur 
chased  last  year  should,  perhaps,  attach  to  Messrs.  F.  H.  Smith,  X.  J. 
Turney,  and  J.  D.  Lang,  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  These 
gentlemen  assisted  in  making  the  purchases,  retained  no  samples  by 
which  the  character  of  their  purchases  could  be  subsequently  tested,  and 
published  no  report  of  their  action,  as  previous  purchasing-committees 
of  the  board  had  done. 

In  conclusion,  I  have  only  to  say,  that  having  been,  while  engaged  in 
my  professional  duties,  incidentally  made  the  bearer  of  Eed  Cloud's 
message  to  you,  and  having  endeavored,  when  the  justice  of  his  com 
plaints  was  questioned  by  those  responsible  for  the  management  of 
Indian  affairs,  to  ascertain  the  truth,  I  now  leave  the  whole  subject  in 
your  hands,  in  perfect  confidence  that  the  facts  I  have  presented  will 
lead  to  good  results. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

O.  C.  MAESH. 

YALE  COLLEGE,  July  10,  1875. 


FIFTH- AVENUE  HOTEL,  XEW  YORK, 

Tuesday,  July  20,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  was  also  present. 

TESTIMONY"  OF  PEOF.  O.  C.  MARSH. 

Professor  Marsh,  having  laid  before  the  commission  his  letter  to  the 
President  of  the  10th  July,  as  presenting  the  general  substance  of  what 
he  desired  to  communicate  to  the  commission,  then  proceeded,  at  the  re 
quest  of  the  commission,  to  explain  his  statement,  as  follows : 

I  will  first  say  that  in  the  letter  which  I  received  from  Commissioner 
Smith,  dated  July  1,  1875,  he  requested  me  to  put  in  writing,  in  a  defi 
nite  form,  my  charges  against  the  management  of  Indian  affairs  at  Eed 
Cloud  agency,  for  the  use  of  the  commission  which  had  been  appointed 
to  investigate  these  affairs  at  Eed  Cloud  agency.  In  reply  to  that  I 
stated,  on  the  date  of  July  3,  in  my  letter  to  the  Commissioner,  that  I 
wTould  at  once  proceed  to  prepare  a  detailed  statement  embodying  that 
evidence,  a  copy  of  which  I  would  with  pleasure  lay  before  the  commis 
sion  as  soon  as  they  informed  me  that  they  were  organized  and  ready  to  act. 
The  commission  have  asked  me  for  this  statement,  and  I  have  presented 
them  with  the  printed  copy.  This  letter  contains  the  important  evi 
dence  in  my  possession  in  regard  to  the  affairs  of  Eed  Cloud  agency, 
and  matters  connected  therewith.  I  prepared  it  conscientiously,  and 
gave  what  I  believe  to  be  the  truth.  Any  additional  evidence  that 
can  give  the  commission  that  will  tend  to  develop  the  whole  truth  I  will 
give  with  pleasure,  but  this  information  will  be  for  the  use  of  the  com 
mission  only.  In  many  cases  I  can  give  them  the  names  of  witnesses 


22 

who  are  familiar  with  tbe  facts  I  have  mentioned,  and  other  facts  to 
which  I  refer  indirectly,  and  from  these  witnesses  they  can  obtain  much 
additional  evidence.  Any  explanations  in  regard  to  my  statement  that 
I  can  give  the  commission,  that  will  tend  to  bring  out  the  truth,  I  shall 
be  very  glad  to  present,  so  far  as  I  have  them  ready  at  the  present  time, 
and  I  would  especially  request  that,  after  the  commission  have  investi 
gated  these  matters  referred  to  in  this  statement,  and  called  upon  the 
witnesses  I  have  named,  if  there  should  be  any  points  not  clear  to  them, 
or  any  witnesses  that  they  should  be  unable  to  find,  in  consequence  of 
their  being  absent  from  localities  where  they  are  sought,  I  ask  the  priv 
ilege,  as  well  as  claim  it  as  a  right,  to  obtain  further  evidence  on  these 
points,  either  from  the  witnesses  I  have  named  or  from  others. 

I  will  here  say  that  a  request  for  this  information  had  been  previ 
ously  made  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  orally,  during  an  inter 
view  which  I  had  with  him  in  Washington ;  that  I  gave  him  then  the 
main  points  of  the  charges  orally,  and  told  him  distinctly  that  when  the 
commission  he  had  requested  to  be  appointed  was  organized  I  would  lay 
before  them  this  definite  information ;  and  I  assured  him  that  anything 
that  I  could  do  to  reach  the  whole  truth  of  affairs  should  be  done 
cheerfully.  I  will  also  say  that  the  documents  I  have  quoted  in  this 
statement  are  all,  or  nearly  all,  in  my  possession.  The  copies  of  the 
contracts  and  other  official  documents  to  which  I  refer  were  obtained 
directly  from  the  Interior  and  Treasury  Departments.  The  proposals 
which  I  quote  are  the  official  proposals. 

By  the  CHATRMAN  : 

Question.  In  your  statement  are  contained,  in  the  first  place,  some 
nine  or  ten  charges  that  are  made  briefly,  and  then  they  are  each  sepa 
rately  treated  under  separate  heads,  and  there  is  the  i'ull  information 
given  in  reference  to  each  one  of  them. 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  take  the  statements  made  in  explanation  of  them.  Take  the 
first  one,  on  page  14,  which  is  where  the  charges,  or  the  proof  of  them, 
begins.  It  is  stated  that  Eed  Cloud?s  specified  charges  were  that  his 
agent  was  weak  and  vacillating,  and  had  no  influence  over  the  Indians, 
and  especially  that  he  was  in  league  with  the  contractors  to  defraud  the 
Indians  of  the  food  and  clothing  sent  them  by  the  Government.  I 
regret  to  say  that  all  I  saw  myself  at  the  agency,  and  all  I  learned  from 
trustworthy  observers  and  official  records,  has  convinced  me  that  these 
charges  were  well  founded.  Now,  have  you  stated  in  this  pamphlet  all 
you  there  saw  which  led  you  to  that  conclusion ;  and  will  you  give  us 
the  names  of  the  other  trustworthy  observers  that  you  refer  to,  from 
whom  we  may  obtain  their  information  ?  Have  you  stated  here  all  the 
facts  that  you  may  have  observed  yourself  and  referred  to  the  persons 
and  the  official  documents  that  established  that  conclusion  in  your 
mind? 

A.  Not  all  of  them.  I  can  give  you  additional  witnesses  to  testify  to 
the  agent's  incompetency,  &c. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  State  to  the  commission  what  opportunities  you  had,  while  at  the 
Eed  Cloud  agency,  of  forming  an  opinion  of  the  character,  efficiency, 
and  qualifications  of  the  agent  there. 

A.  I  saw  him  almost  every  day  for  a  week.  First  I  saw  him  in  the 
council  with  the  Indians -when  the  question  in  regard  to  my  expedition 
to  the  "bad  lands "  was  discussed,  and  I  saw  him  issue  the  annuity- 


23 

goods  to  the  Indians.  I  saw  him  at  the  time  when  the  Indians  drove 
back  my  expedition,  and  at  other  times. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  you  will  furnish  the  names  of  the  other 
observers  of  his  conduct. 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  I  will  give  you  those  names. 

Q.  And  the  official  records  to  which  you  refer  you  will  furnish  us  a 
memorandum  of? 

^A.  Yes,  sir  5  in  regard  to  the  witnesses,  I  will  furnish,  right  here, 
Commissioner  Smith  as  one  of  the  persons  who,  appealing  to  me,  said 
that  Saville  was  not  a  person  qualified  to  fill  so  important  a  position. 
He  can  tell  you  on  what  ground  he  based  his  statement.  All  others 
that  I  mention  as  observers  I  will  give  the  names  of  hereafter.  The 
records  I  refer  to  are  quoted  in  this  document.  I  have  others,  but  have 
only  touched  a  few,  because  the  Commissioner  called  on  me  only  a  few 
days  ago  to  prepare  this  statement.  I  had  the  information  in  various 
forms,  and  wanted  to  be  perfectly  clear  and  right  about  it,  and  I  said  to 
him  that  as  soon  as  the  commission  were  organized  and  ready  to  act,  I 
would  give  this  to  them.  Now,  when  you  come  to  take  up  the  official 
accounts  and  compare  them,  the  accounts  themselves  prove  a  great  deal 
in  addition  to  what  I  refer  to  here.  That  you  will  find  on  examination, 
and  I  refer  to  it  for  your  information. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  next  matter  we  wish  to  inquire  about  is  on  page  15  ;  defrauding 
the  Indians  by  withholding  from  them  provisions  charged  against  the 
Government  as  issued  to  them.  There  you  give  an  example. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Pardon  me  one  moment.  In  regard  to  the  affair  of  the 
flag-staff,  which  is  mentioned  before  that,  I  refer  to  that  merely  to  show 
the  hostility  of  the  Indians  toward  Saville, 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Yery  well ;  explain  what  that  occurrence  was  to  which  you  refer 
on  page  14. 

A.  The  agent  attempted  to  put  up  a  flag-staff  inside  of  the  stockade  at 
the  agency,  well  knowing  that  the  Indians  did  not  approve  of  it.  And 
as  soon  as  it  was  attempted,  their  hostility  was  manifested  in  the  most 
violent  manner.  They  came  there  prepared  to  burn  the  agency,  some 
having  straw  under  their  blankets,  and  others  well  armed,  and  ready  to 
destroy  all  at  the  agency.  The  agent,  when  the  danger  came,  sent  a 
messenger  hastily  to  Camp  Eobinson,  a  mile  and  a  half  off,  (a  military 
post  put  there  to  protect  the  agency,)  and  Lieutenant  Crawford  came 
with  his  company  of  cavalry,  or  part  of  it,  to  the  rescue  of  the  agent,  as 
given  in  my  statement,  page  14. 

Q.  This  circumstance  occurred  before  you  arrived  ? 

A.  While  I  was  on  my  way  to  the  agency,  a  few  days  before  my 
arrival. 

Q.  And  you  heard  it  from  ethers? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  would  refer,  for  the  proof  of  that,  to  Major  Jordan,  the 
commanding  officer  at  Camp  Eobinson  at  the  time,  and  to  Lieutenant 
Crawford  himself.  In  regard  to  the  total  want  of  system  in  the  issue  of 
the  annuity-goods,  that  I  will  explain  to  you. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  say,  "Of  the  more  debasing  influences,  &c.,I  will  not  speak." 
I  want  to  ask  you  what  you  mean  by  that J? 
A.  I  mean,  in  the  first  place,  that  by  the  regulations  of  the  Indian 


24 

Department  it  is  unlawful  for  an  agent  to  allow  liquor  on  the  reserva 
tion,  and  yet  I  saw  one  of  the  employes  of  the  agent  intoxicated  while 
issuing  supplies  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name  ? 

A.  1  could  not  give  his  name,  but  he  was  one  of  the  regular  employes 
at  the  agency. 

Q.  That  was  during  your  November  visit? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  also  saw  the  same  man  under  the  influence  of  liquor 
the  second  time  at  the  agency.  Secondly,  I  saw  one  of  the  employes  of 
the  agency  standing  at  the  door  of  the  warehouse  endeavoring  to  en 
tice  into  the  warehouse  for  improper  purposes  a  young  Indian  girl. 
His  request  to  her  I  heard  distinctly,  and  his  offer  to  her  of  a  blanket 
if  she  would  comply  with  his  request.  She  was  a  half-breed,  and  he 
was  talking  to  her  in  English. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  the  name  of  this  person  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  could  not  give  it. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask,  in  addition  to  that,  if  you  know  that  either  of  those 
circumstances  were  brought  to  the  knowledge  of  the  agent? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  he  had  any  way  of  knowing  that,  or 
permitted  the  introduction  of  liquor  upon  the  agency? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  think  I  can  give 
you  some  names  of  witnesses  that  will  testify  to  that.  The  other  I  saw 
myself. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  will  you  state  what  this  want  of  system  and  management  in 
the  agency  affairs  consisted  of  in  the  matter  of  the  annuity-goods,  £c.? 

A.  If  you  will  make  a  note  of  that,  say,  see  page  17,  under  annuity- 
goods,  referring  to  page  14,  that  will  explain  it. 

Q.  Well,  on  that  subject,  do  you  know  more  than  has  been  stated  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  mentioned  to  you  what  1  saw,  as  I  did  to  the 
Commissioner  when  I  came  back,  about  the  loose  and  irresponsible  way 
in  which  the  distribution  was  made.  Pages  17  to  20  will  give 'you  that. 
Now,  the  entire  issue  wras  made  in  a  few  hours  of  a  single  November 
day,  in  a  severe  snow-storm.  Now,  when  I  come  to  speak  about  the 
annuity-goods,  I  can  detail  the  inconvenience  and  suffering  caused  to 
the  Indians  by  the  lateness  of  the  delivery. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  will  you  tell  us  what  you  saw  there  indicating  a  general  want 
of  system  in  that  respect  ? 

A.  I  will  state  that  for  the  details  of  some  things,  showing  this  want 
of  system,  see  page  20. 

Q.  In  your  statement  you  say  the  entire  issue  for  the  year  was  made 
in  a  few  hours  of  a  single  November  day,  in  a  severe  snow-storm,  &c. 
Now,  what  have  you  to  say  upon  the  subject  of  the  checks  and  accounts? 
I  would  like  to  have  you  state  all  you  know  upon  that  subject,  because, 
as  it  stands  now,  it  was  really  thrown  out  without  any  check  whatever. 

A.  I  will  state  right  here,  that  the  only  data  by  which  the  matter  was 
regulated  was  a  pencil-memorandum  in  the  hands  of  the  agent.  He 
called  the  articles  off,  and  then  these  goods  were  chucked  out  of  the 
door  in  the  most  hasty  and  careless  manner— thrown  out  to  some  of  the 
headmen.  They  go  according  to  families  and  bands,  Red  Cloud  being 
the  chief  of  the  whole  and  Ked  Dog  second.  Each  family,  again,  has 
a  chieftain  as  headman,  and  he  takes  the  goods  for  a  certain  number  of 
lodges.  When  you  get  the  property-returns  you  will  find  these  head- 


25 

.men  receipt  for  goods  or  make  their  mark,  and  these  goods  were  so 
called  out  in  that  way.  For  instance,  for  White  Tail,  so  many  blankets, 
as  thrown  out  in  pieces  uncut ;  that  is  for  his  band,  and  he  takes  them 
and  divides  them  up  afterward  to  suit  himself;  that  is,  he  has  absolute 
power  over  the  number  of  lodges  he  represents. 

Q.  So  that,  whenever  this  man  took  any  record,  he  took,  a  record  of 
the  articles  which  were  to  be  delivered  to  the  headman,  and  having 
made  the  record,  he  threw  out  the  goods,  the  Indians  being  outside  of 
the  store-houses,  waiting  to  receive  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  some  of  the  old  chiefs  were  inside,  and  whenever  any  of 
the  lesser  chiefs  or  common  Indians  came  inside  they  were  driven  out. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  that  the  agent  did  not  keep  correct  data  of 
what  he  did  deliver? 

A.  Well,  I  stood  there,  and,  with  what  I  saw  of  this  pencil-memoran 
dum,  I  know  that  when  they  were  handed  over,  no  receipt  was  taken 
from  the  Indians. 

Q.  Is  that  customary  ? 

A.  I  think  so.  Now,  suppose  I  am  delivering  these  goods,  and  I  have 
certain  favorites  among  the  Indians ;  and  suppose  a  certain  chief  has 
been  favoring  me,  and  I  want  to  favor  him,  and  say  so  many  bales  for 
such  a  chief  and  so  many  for  such  a  one,  without  taking  any  receipt. 
That  is  what  I  mean.  The  whole  thing  depended  on  the  honesty  of  the 
person  in  charge  of  the  delivery. 

Q.  I  wish  to  know  whether  you  saw  anything  in  that  delivery  of  goods 
that  showed  you  that  there  was  any  improper  disposition  of  the  goods  I 

A.  I  will  say  here  that  the  second  chief,  Red  Dog,  whom  I  knew, 
called  my  attention  to  that.  Of  course  I,  as  a  visitor,  merely  saw  what 
went  on  under  my  own  eyes.  You  will  find,  under  the  head  of  blankets, 
where  I  speak  of  what  Bed  Dog  said  about  it. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  about  it,  except  as  stated  by  Red  Dog  I 

A.  That  is  the  information  I  got  from  him. 

Q.  And  unless  you  assume  that  the  agent  or  somebody  else  was  act 
ing  fraudulently,  then  there  was  no  presumption  about  it  £ 

A.  Well,  here  were  the  men  who  received  the  goods,  and  who  were 
directly  interested  in  it,  that  stated  it  to  me. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  understand  your  testimony  to  refer  to  the  hasty  manner  in  which 
this  was  done,  and  not  to  any  fraud. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  it  in  part.  Instead  of  the  goods  being  issued 
per  capita,  they  were  thrown  out  in  this  way,  and  the  whole  thing  was  a 
scramble.  Their  being  thrown  out  in  that  short  time  and  in  that  man 
ner  made  me  very  indignant.  [For  frauds  in  these  annuity  goods,  see 
statement,  p.  18.] 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  the  next  thing  you  say,  "  he  defrauded  the  Indians  by 
withholding  provisions  from  them,"'  &c.,  and  give  an  example.  Now, 
are  there  any  other  sources  of  information  except  those  you  state  here  ? 

A.  If  that  is  not  sufficient,  I  can  give  more.  By  going  over  these 
accounts,  there  are  a  great  many  discrepancies.  When  you  get  the 
property -returns  you  will  find  a  great  many,  and  these  follow  right  from 
the  official  documents  themselves.  I  take  up  one  here  and  illustrate  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  Before  that,  beginning  on  the  first  of  the  sixteenth  page,  you 
make  a  statement  that  the  agent  was  put  there  to  guard  the  interests  ot 
both  Indians  and  the  Government,  and  that  he  has  betrayed  both. 


26 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  get  at  what  you  know  about  that.  What  I  want  is  to 
call  your  attention  to  the  charges  made,  and,  after  that,  to  call  for  what 
you  base  them  upon. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  For  example,  Saville  informed  me  that  he  was  withhold 
ing  the  rations  until  the  Indians  would  consent  to  be  counted. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  think  you  told  us  that  the  agent  had  told  you  he  had  orders  not 
to  issue  provisions  until  the  Indians  were  counted. 

A.  Yes.  sir.  I  understand  the  Commissioner  to  say  that  that  is  cor 
rect. 

Q.  You  further  state  that  you  arrived  at  the  agency  on  the  9th,  and 
that  the  first  issue,  after  the  counting  was  finished,  was  November  14. 
Now,  when  was  the  count  ;  do  you  know  ? 

A.  The  count  was  finished,  I  think,  about  the  13th.  I  am  not  quite 
sure  about  that,  but  about  that  time.  It  was  not  completed  when  I  got 
there,  but  it  was  completed  before  this  issue,  as  I  understand  it. 

Q.  You  say,  "  In  the  same  manner  his  official  reports  represent  other 
issues  that  never  took  place.'7  Can  you  refer  us  to  anything  more  than 
generally  to  the  provision-returns,  or  returns  of  issues  of  property  ? 

A.  The  accounts,  as  I  looked  them  over,  show  discrepancies  which 
render  those  dates  impossible.  That  is  what  I  mean  by  that. 

Q.  Will  that  be  apparent  upon  inspection  of  the  property  and  provis 
ion  returns  ? 

A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Upon  information  or  personal  knowledge,  which  is  it,  that  you 
base  your  statement  that  no  beef  was  issued  on  the  8th  of  November, 
1874? 

A.  Upon  information  which  I  deem  reliable. 

Q.  AVhat  is  that  information  ! 

A.  First,  the  statement  of  the  agent  himself. 

Q.  Which  was  made  to  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  which  was  what  ? 

A.  That  he  had  been  withholding  rations  for  some  time,  on  account 
of  orders  from  the  Department  to  do  so  until  the  Indians  would  consent 
to  be  counted. 

Q.  Any  other  fact  ? 

A.  Other  persons  there  gave  me  the  same  information. 

Q.  And  these  persons  you  will  give  us  the  names  of? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  also  have  that  on  a  statement  made  to  me  at  the 
agency,  and  a  statement  subsequently  made  by  Agent  Saville,  in  Wash 
ington,  to  Bishop  Hare,  as  given  in  my  published  statement,  on  page  25. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  the  statement  made  to  Bishop  Hare  ? 

A.  I  did.  I  was  present,  and  I  have  Bishop  Hare's  signature  to  that 
statement. 

Q.  Now,  you  refer  to  the  fact  that  other  special  commissioners  of  the 
Interior  Department  have  likewise  reported  unfavorably  of  this  agent 
and  the  affairs  of  the  agency.  You  will  give  us  some  memorandum  by 
which  we  may  obtain  some  reference  to  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Allow  me  to  say  I  state,  in  the  first  place,  that  he 
defrauded  the  Indians,  and  then  give  information  as  to  how  he  did  it. 
For  evidence  of  how  he  defrauded  the  Government,  see  section  4  of  this 
statement.  Then,  as  to  the  previous  fraud  and  incompetency,  I  state 
my  information :  Inspector  Bevier's  report  of  October,  1874,  of  which 
you  will  get  a  certified  copy  at  the  Department. 


27 

Q.  The  others,  you  will  give  us  the  names  of  parties  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Eeferring  to  page  15,  you  say,  "  In  the  same  manner  his  official 
reports  represent  other  issues  that  never  took  place."  Have  you  any 
knowledge  or  any  facts  or  information  by  which  you  can  guide  us  in 
that  inquiry  ?  Give  us  any  references. 

A.  That  point  came  up,  and  I  said  that,  in  looking  over  his  accounts, 
I  noticed  discrepancies  between  the  dates  he  gives,  and  the  discrepancies 
themselves  are  shown  by  the  accounts. 

Q.  Then  you  refer  to  his  official  accounts  I 

A.  To  his  official  accounts.     I  think  I  have  some  notes  on  that  point. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  If  you  have  any  further  information  on  that,  you  can  furnish  it  by 
a  memorandum. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  know  of  certain  information  that  I  received  on  the 
ground  that  the  accounts  are  wrong.  If  you  compare  his  official 
accounts  of  the  dates  of  issues  with  the  facts  you  will  obtain  from  the 
persons  who  were  there  at  the  actual  time  of  the  issues,  that  will  show. 

Q.  Now,  sir,  in  the  second  subdivision  :  Have  you  stated  in  this  pam 
phlet  all  the  reasons  that  you  have  for  believing  that  the  number  of  the 
Indians  supplied  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  has  been  largely  overesti 
mated?  Have  you  other  reasons u? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  say  that  the  provision-returns,  as  stated  in  my 
pamphlet,  give  15,117  Indians  receiving  rations  at  the  agency  October 
1.  Sow,  that  is  a  very  broad  statement,  because  there  is  a  date  written 
down.  Now,  it  is  well  known  that  at  that  time,  October  being  a  great 
hunting  month,  and  the  Indians  scattered  all  over  the  country  hunting, 
there  would  be  but  few  Indians  there.  They  do  not  begin  to  come  in  there 
for  their  annuity  goods  now  for  the  winter ;  and  to  put  the  number  at 
15,000  the  first  of  October  is,  to  any  one  familiar  with  Indians,  an  ab 
surdity  011  the  face  of  it.  I  inquired  particularly  about  the  number  of 
Indians,  because  my  attention  had  been  called  to  it  before.  It  is  stated 
in  the  last  report  of  the  Indian  Commissioner,  I  think,  that  there  are 
about  53,000  of  the  Sioux ;  but  I  think  those  familiar  with  the  number 
•would  not  estimate  them  at  over  half  that.  Jules  Ecoffey,  a  man  who 
knows  more  about  the  Ked  Cloud  Indians  than  almost  any  one,  can  give 
you  information  on  that  subject.  You  will  find  him  at  Fort  Laramie,  and 
his  opinion  on  that  one  point  would  be  worth  more  than  almost  any  other 
person.  He  is  going  back  and  forth  from  Fort  Laramie  to  the  agency 
constantly.  He  would  give  you  the  names  of  other  parties,  those 
familiar  with  that  point. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  information  of  your  own,  except  what  is  de 
rived  from  others  ! 

A.  Well,  I  was  around  the  agency  there  for  some  time.  I  saw  where 
the  Indians  were  encamped,  and  although  I  did  not  make  any  attempt 
at  an  exact  estimate  myself,  yet  I  had  information  from  many  people 
familiar  with  it,  in  regard  to  the  number  of  Indians  there  at  the  time. 

Q.  Do  you  claim  that  if  there  were  Indians  belonging  to  the  northern 
tribes  which  were  encamped  within  a  short  distance  of  the  agency,  it 
would  be  improper  for  the  agent  of  Ked  Cloud  to  issue  rations  of  beef  to 
them? 

A.  That  is  a  point  I  do  not  touch. 


28 

Q.  Well,  even  if -the  Red  Cloud  Indians  did  not  number  15,117,  there 
may  have  been  others  of  other  tribes  that  would  bring  up  the  number 
to  that  f 

A.  I  do  not  believe  there  were  more  than  half  of  that  number. 

Q.  I  ask  if  you  know.  The  Indian  commissioners  reported  a  year  ago 
that  there  were  about  15,000  Indians,  but  afterward  came  before  the 
committee  and  stated  they  were  mistaken,  and  based  their  information 
on  Professor  Harris's  report ;  so  we  ought  to  be  tolerably  correct  about 
that  matter. 

A.  I  took  the  statement  of  the  agent  there  that  there  were  two  or 
three  thousand  northern  Indians  encamped  across  the  White  River ; 
that  he  stated  repeatedly,  and  repeated  it  to  Rev.  S.  I).  Hiiimau  and 
myself  in  Washington.  I  asked  him  what  chief  they  belonged  to,  and 
he  said  Little  Big  Man  was  one.  I  called  his  attention  to  that  particu 
larly,  and  he  mentioned  that  chief  as  one. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  statement  of  his  was  not  true  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  regard  to  the  number. 

Q.  And,  so  far  as  you  know,  were  no  northern  Indians  there  ? 

A.  ¥o,  sir ;  I  mean  to  say  the  number  was  estimated  at  from  2,000  to 
4,000  by  different  persons,  but  I  have  put  it  at  2,000  to  3,000,  and  in 
order  to  make  up  the  15,000  it  would  be  impossible,  as  Eed  Cloud's  baud 
doirt  reach  any  such  numbers. 

Q.  You  say  this  is  well  known,  but  I  want  to  get  at  the  source  of  the 
information. 

A.  I  say  that  the  agent  and  others  told  me  about  there  being  two  or 
three  thousand  northern  Indians  encamped  across  the  White  River.  I 
wrent  over  the  river  right  where  the  Indians  should  be  encamped,  and 
counted  the  lodges  myself,  and  there  were  less  than  forty.  I  went  into 
one  of  these  lodges,  and  I  had  with  me  a  man  named  Farnam,  as  guide 
and  interpreter,  and  he  knew  some  of  those  Indians,  and  told  me  they 
belonged  to  Red  Cloud's  band — those  that  we  came  in  contact  with. 
Northern  Indians  frequently  come  down  across  there,  as  is  well  known. 
At  the  time  the  annuity  goods  were  distributed,  there  were  some  north 
ern  Indians,  but  I  believe  that  the  great  number  of  northern  Indians 
which  they  report  there  receiving  supplies  is  false. 

Q.  You  charge  a  deliberate  falsehood  in  the  returns,  and  you  say  that 
there  were  not  over  8,400  individuals  ? 

A.  I  say  I  have  good  reason  to  believe  that  the  number  of  Indians 
supplied  with  provisions  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  has  been  largely  over 
estimated,  and  makes  a  loss  to  the  Government.  Now,  if  the  agent 
claims  to  have  fed  15,000  Indians  on  the  1st  of  October,  that,  I  say,  is 
defrauding  the  Government. 

Q.  That  you  say ;  but  we  want  to  get  at  the  means  by  which  you  form 
that  opinion.  Please  go  on  and  state  the  information  you  have  tending 
to  that  conclusion. 

A.  I  state  this  specific  case,  and  then  say  I  believe  from  information 
I  got  from  others  who  ought  to  know.  I  will  give  you  names  of  parties 
bearing  on  that  point. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  suppose  the  Government  is  in  the  habit  of  allowing  a  certain 
amount  of  provisions  and  annuity  goods  in  proportion  to  those  living 
within  the  limits  of  any  particular  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  how  would  it  be  received  by  the  resident  Indians  if  there 
was  an  intrusion  of  four  or  five  thousand  northern  Indians  wrho  would 


'29 

be  strangers  to  them  and  not  within  the  benefaction  of  the  Govern 
ment  ?  Would  it  not  be  resisted  almost  as  a  casus  belli  ? 

A.  The  northern  Indians  are  mostly  warlike,  and  the  relations  be 
tween  the  tribes  are  such  that  the  Ogallalas  would  not  like  their  com 
ing  there.  At  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  there  were  not  only  Sioux,  but 
other  tribes  there  drawing  rations,  and  around  them  at  the  time.  The 
agent  can  always  tell  a  Sioux  from  a  Cheyenne  or  Arapahoe.  I  passed 
by  the  Arapahoe  camp.  The  famous  Friday,  who  was  then  with  his 
baud,  came  up  to  me  and  spoke  to  me  about  the  blankets,  and  gave  me 
information  about  it.  Friday  speaks  English  perfectly,  having  been 
educated  in  the  East  and  sent  back.  He  is  an  Arapahoe,  and  was  there 
with  the  Arapahoes. 

Q.  I  do  not  see  how  there  can  be  any  order  or  system  in  this  distribu 
tion  if  those  living  without  the  limits  are  permitted  to  come  there  and 
take  from  the  resident  Indians  their  proportion  allotted  by  the  Govern 
ment. 

A.  The  Government  increases  its  donation  to  that  very  agency  on 
account  of  these  supposed  northern  Indians,  and  the  appropriations 
are  directly  asked  to  meet  this. 

Q.  Did  you  record  what  you  said  about  Big  Little  Man  at  the  time  of 
the  distribution  of  the  annuity  goods  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir :  the  reporter  has  that,  I  think.  I  do  not  mean  to  say 
that  Big  Little  Man  was  the  one  who  received  the  goods.  I  asked  the 
agent  what  northern  Indians  were  there  during  my  visit,  and  he  said, 
"Well,  Big  Little  Man  was  one  of  them."  He  did  not  say  directly  that 
Big  Little  Man  received  the  goods,  but  some  northern  Indians  did.  On 
the  list  of  receipts  Big  Little  Man's  name  did  not  appear,  as  I  remem 
ber.  I  would  also  say,  in  regard  to  the  number  of  Indians,  the  method 
of  numeration  is  to  count  the  lodges  and  multiply  by  seven.  In  the 
agent's  provision-returns  he  does  not  attempt  to  discriminate  between 
the  men,  women,  and  children,  but  merely  puts  down  the  total  number, 
so  that  there  is  no  check  upon  that.  Seven  is  about  the  number,  I  be 
lieve,  at  each  lodge. 

Q.  I  thought  it  was  five. 

A.  That  depends  upon  the  wealth  of  the  Indians.  If  they  are 
wealthy  the  lodges  are  more  numerous,  and  if  they  are  poor  they  crowd 
more  into  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  we  can  find  this  Mr.  Louis  Eeshaw  mentioned 
in  your  pamphlet  f 

A.  You  will  probably  find  him  at  Fort  Laramie.  He  may  have  gone 
with  the  Sioux  commission  to  treat  for  the  Black  Hills.  Mr.  J.  S.  Collins, 
secretary  of  that  commission,  would  be  likely  to  take  him  as  interpreter. 
Eeshaw  is  a  man  of  education,  of  property,  and  well  known.  He  was 
guide  of  the  Stanley  expedition  in  1873,  when  General  Bradley  was 
there.  His  father  is  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  he  has  one  or  two 
brothers  there.  I  have  known  him  by  reputation  for  some  time,  and  he 
was  there  with  me  acting  as  interpreter.  General  Bradley  and  Mr. 
Collins  both  know  him,  and  I  refer  to  those  gentlemen  for  his  references. 
Major  Burt,  too,  I  will  mention,  had  known  him  for  a  long  time,  and  he 
engaged  him.  for  me,  or  at  least  told  me  about  him. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Kow,  the  whole  burden  of  this  matter  about  the  blankets  is  that 
about  twenty  bales  were  issued,  and  that  the  number  issued  could  not 
possibly  have  exceeded  twenty-five;  now  it  seems  the  agent  claims  to 
have  delivered  on  that  day  thirty-five  bales  ? 


30 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  what  other  evidence  except  what  is  stated  here,  in  point,  can 
you  furnish  the  committee  to  establish  that  fact  ? 

A.  I  state  what  occurred  in  the  warehouse  ;  and  then  having  had  my 
attention  called  to  this,  I  talked  it  over  afterward  with  Eed  Dog,  and,  I 
think,  also  with  Eed  Cloud  and  White  Tail,  and  two  other  Indians 
spoke  about  that  very  point,  the  number  of  blankets  issued.  Eed 
Cloud  was  very  bitter. 

Q.  Did  Eed  Cloud  know  at  that  time  ? 

A.  He  stood  right  in  the  warehouse  with  all  these  chiefs  watching  the 
thing  closely,  and  the  constant  struggle  of  the  younger  chiefs  was  to  see 
for  themselves. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  except  this  Eeshaw  that  counted  the 
bales '? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  says  in  his  affidavit  that  the  number  was  eighteen  bales,  each 
bale  containing  fifty  pairs.  Does  he  mean  on  that  day  ? 

A.  On  that  day;  that  is  the  only  issue  of  annuity  goods. 

Q.  Do  you  state  that '? 

A.  He  says  it ;  that  he  is  very  positive  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  else  who  has  the  same  information  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  to  the  positive  count. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  this  question:  If  the  agent  delivered  the  same 
blankets  that  he  received  from  the  Government,  whether  you  can  hold 
him  responsible  in  any  way  for  the  fact  that  the  blankets  were  bad, 
thin,  and  small  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all;  that  belongs  to  Commissioner  E.  P.  Smith 
with  F.  H.  Smith,  chairman  of  the  purchasing  committee.  The  annuity 
goodvS  the  agent  had  nothing  to  do  with,  so  far  as  purchasing  was  con 
cerned. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how^  long  the  blankets  had  been  in  the  agency  at  the 
time  of  delivery  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  the  exact  time;  the  blankets  were  shipped  from 
Philadelphia  on  the  4th,  5th,  and  8th  of  September. 

Q.  How  can  that  be  shown  ? 

A.  That  can  be  shown  by  the  persons  who  shipped  them.  I  have  the 
information  right  from  the  Department,  the  date  of  shipment,  the 
amount,  and  the  number. 

Q.  Can  we  get  that  '\ 

A.  Yes,  sir;  right  from  the  Department. 

Q.  That  is  the  shipment  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  Eed  Cloud  agency;  the  shipments  were  made  the 
4th,  5th,  and  8th  of  September,  I  think. 

Q.  You  say  the  Indians  are  out  on  their  hunts  about  October  aucl 
along  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  is  practicable  to  make  a  distribution  of 
the  annuity  goods  to  the  Indians  before  their  return  in  the  fall  ? 

A.  It  should  certainly  be  practicable  to  issue  goods  before  the  cold 
weather  begins. 

Q.  Well,  if  they  are  there! 

A.  They  will  come  there  if  the  goods  are  there ;  there  is  no  trouble 
about  that. 

Mr.  Commissioner  Smith  here  suggested  to  the  committee  in  the 
midst  of  the  examination  the  fact  of  whether  his  order  that  the  goods 
should  not  be  delivered  to  the  Indians  until  the  count  of  the  Indians 


31 

was  made,  should  not  be  considered  in  connection  with  this  point.  Also  as 
to  the  fact  of  whether  that  brand  "  U.  S.  I.  D."  was  damaging  to  all  the 
blankets.  He  stated  that  he  had  no  knowledge  of  any,  except  what  was 
put  on  in  red,  which  was  damaging  to  the  blankets. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  blankets  that  were  damaged? 

A.  I  heard  them  talking  about  it  there  at  the  agency.  The  annuity 
goods  were  issued  on  the  12th  of  November.  Then  1  went  off  on  an 
expedition  for  about  two  weeks,  and  was  back  there,  and  then  I  heard 
the  complaints  about  the  blankets.  There  is  no  doubt  about  that  fact. 
Mr.  Hoyt,  chairman  of  the  present  purchasing  committee,  says  he  has 
had  his  attention  called  directly  to  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  You  state  in  that  connection  here  that  the  fact  referred  to  in  the 
affidavit  of  Eeshaw  is  well  known  to  every  one  at  the  agency.  Now,  fur 
nish  me  with  the  names  of  any  parties  that  you  know  will  give  any  infor 
mation  about  that. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  will  give  you  those  names.  Now,  I  have  been  looking 
into  this  blanket  business,  because  J.  &  J.  Dobson  &  Company  have 
been  highly  recommended,  and  I  thought  it  was  proper  they  who  furnish 
the  blankets  should  rise  and  explain.  I  am  told,  and  Mr.  Smith  will 
state  whether  it  is  done  or  not,  that,  so  far  from  this  brand  on  the 
blankets  rotting  the  cloth,  being  the  only  objection,  that  the  blankets, 
when  purchased,  were  otherwise  inferior ;  the  bid  was  accepted  upon 
certain  samples  of  blankets ;  that  when  the  blankets  were  ready  for 
shipment,  it  was  found  they  did  not  correspond  with  the  sample  $  and 
instead  of  holding  the  parties  right  to  the  sample  of  the  blankets,  they 
took  the  inferior  blankets  upon  a  reduction  of  the  price  being  made.  I 
merely  heard  that,  and  you  can  ask  Mr.  Smith  whether  it  was  so. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Yres,  sir;  but  it  is  a  most  immaterial  thing.  There  is  no 
question  about  the  quality  of  the  blankets,  and  about  their  being  per 
fectly  fit  for  Professor  Marsh  or  myself,  or  any  other  gentleman,  and 
for  that  you  have  the  integrity  of  the  best  house  in  Philadelphia.  It  is 
a  fact,  however,  as  he  states,  that  when  the  sharpest  inspector  in  the 
Department  came  to  examine  Dobson's  blankets  with  a  magnifyiug- 
glass  he  found  one  of  the  classes  that  did  not  come  up  in  the  quality  of 
thread  to  the  sample,  and  he  held  them,  strictly  to  it,  and  deducted 
according  to  the  difference  between  what  he  regarded  the  blanket  which 
was  offered  as  a  sample  and  the  blanket  which  was  furnished,  and  on 
my  order,  provided  he  deemed  the  blanket  actually  delivered  by  Dob- 
son  Association  for  the  Indians.  That  inspector  is  Mr.  Wilcox;  he  is  an 
old  merchant  of  New  York,  of  the  highest  reputation,  knows  his  busi 
ness,  and  is  above  suspicion. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  are  his  initials? 

A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Of  New  York? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  of  New  York. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  bids  are  accepted  on  samples,  and  the  con 
tractors  are  not  compelled  to  furnish  goods  equal  to  the  samples.  But 
this  is  a  case  in  point,  small  in  amount,  perhaps,  but  when  the  blankets 
proved  inferior,  they  should  be  rejected. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  That  does  not  strike  at  the  Indian  agent,  however. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  agent  is  the  smallest  part  of  this  business. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Where  else  is  it  ? 


Professor  MARSH.  Commissioner  Smith;  perhaps  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior ;  whoever  made  these  contracts. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  The  man  who  passed  the  goods  or  received  them  know 
ing-  them  not  to  be  up  to  the  standard  is  the  person  upon  whom  the 
responsibility  falls. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  understand  Mr.  Wilcox  is  an  old  merchant,  and  a 
competent  man  for  inspecting  the  goods,  and  upon  inspecting  them  he 
detected  them  as  not  being  up  to  the  sample,  but  decided  them  suffi 
ciently  good  for  the  purpose,  and  accepted  them  as  being  such  blankets 
as  would  be  serviceable  for  the  Indians,  and  deducted  the  difference 
between  the  price  of  the  blankets  and  the  price  of  the  sample  which 
was  offered. 

Mr.  SMITH.  That  is  exactly  my  statement  of  the  fact. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  will  ask  the  Commissioner  if  an  inspector  who  is 
furnished  a  sample  of  certain  goods  and  a  copy  of  the  contract,  whether 
he  has  the  right,  if  he  finds  goods  do  not  come  up  to  the  contract,  to 
use  his  judgment  in  the  matter J? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Invariably ;  and  has  been  throughout  the  Army  and  every 
where  else  from  time  immemorial.  The  difference  in  the  blankets  was 
very  small,  and  only  detected  by  the  aid  of  a  microscope. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  following  on  to  the  other  annuity  goods  issued  at  that  time. 
You  first  state  that  you  entered  an  earnest  protest  against  the  manner 
in  which  the  issue  was  made.  Now,  in  addition  to  the  description  which 
you  give  of  the  manner  here,  is  there  anything  else  about  the  manner 
of  it  that  strikes  you  as  being  wrong  ? 

A.  Well,  no ;  I  do  not  know  that  there  is  anything  more  to  say  about 
that.  Now,  the  annuity  goods  you  will  find  from  the  transportation- 
receipts — you  want  particularly  to  call  for  McCann's  transportation- 
receipts.  The  agent  should  receipt  for  all  the  goods  he  receives.  Then 
you  will  have  additional  information  on  that  point. 

Q.  On  page  20,  speaking  of  the  issue,  you  say :  "  The  only  data  by 
which  the  issue  was  regulated  was  by  a  pencil  memorandum,  &c.  Thus, 
there  was  no  guarantee  that  the  Indians  received  even  half  the  goods 
intended  for  them.'7  Now,  the  question  I  wish  to  put  to  you  is  whether 
or  not  you  have  sufficient  knowledge,  so  that  you  would  be  willing  to 
swear,  if  called  upon,  that  that  memorandum  kept  by  the  agent  was 
not  a  perfect  memorandum  of  all  the  goods  delivered? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  saw  the  goods  delivered — nearly  all  of  them — and  I 
particularly  observed  the  blankets,  and  took  them  up  as  an  important 
thing,  and,  taking  the  information  I  got  about  the  blankets  and  put 
ting  it  with  what  I  have  myself,  that  is  my  opinion,  that  it  wras  not.  I 
I  do  not  mean  to  swear  to  it,  but  that  is  my  opinion. 

Q.  Now,  in  regard  to  the  quality,  independent  of  this  matter  of  the 
brand. 

A.  In  the  first  place,  there  was  the  small  size. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  blankets  which  were  furnished  were  of  small 
sizes  "I 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  all  small  sizes,  and  I  say  very  distinctly  they 
were  too  small  for  the  Indians. 

Q.  What  as  to  quality  ? 

A.  In  regard  to  quality,  Friday,  who  spoke  English  perfectly — I  asked 
him  when  we  came,  and  what  he  thought  of  the  blankets.  "  Well,"  he 
said,  "  they  are  only  fair  blankets;  they  are  not  first-class  blankets;" 
and  he  showed  me  a  white  blanket  which  he  had  on,  and  said,  "  There's 


33 

a  blanket  I've  had  two  years."    It  was  a  larger  blanket  than  those — I 
should  say  a  four  point ;  and  I  took  it  up  and  examined  it — the  texture 
and  quality— and  his  white  blanket  was  a  better  one,  of  better  quality. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  notice  in  the  proposals  there  were  no  proposals  for  larger  than 
three-point  blankets. 

A.  Yes.  sir ;  but  it  should  be  one  higher  size  in  place  of  the  lower  one. 
All  the  blankets  should  be  a  size  larger. 

Q.  You  do  not  make  any  point  that  the  size  of  the  blanket  did  not 
correspond  with  the  proposal. 

A.  No,  sir;  but  the  fault  is  in  making  the  proposals  for  the  small 
blankets. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  at  what  price  they  were  actually  furnished  ? 

A.  I  have  not  the  price  here,  but  you  will  get  it  in  the  contract. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  price  was  high  or  low,  having  reference 
to  the  size  and  quality  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  SMITH.  The  price  is  made  by  the  pound.  A  small  blanket  of 
course  costs  proportionately  less  than  a  larger  one. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  As  to  the  chiefs  asserting  that  the  issue  was  fraudulent,  did  they 
assert  in  what  respect  it  was  fraudulent  ? 

A.  That  the  number  of  blankets  issued  was  made  under  what  it 
should  have  been,  and  they  complained  of  the  size  of  the  blankets  and 
the  quality.  Red  Cloud  was  very  indignant,  and  said  these  blankets 
were  only  fit  for  horse-blankets,  meaning  small  blankets  put  under  the 
saddle  for  horses.  You  will  find,  I  think,  that  Eed  Cloud  said  the  same 
thing  in  the  council  at  Washington. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  this  the  only  issue  of  annuity  goods  you  ever  saw  among  the 
Indians  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  the  only  issue  amounting  to  anything. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  learned  from  the  Indians  of  their  having  got  blankets 
under  the  circumstances  you  have  stated  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not.  I  came  away  shortly  after  this,  and  do  not 
know,  but  you  can  easily  get  information  on  that  point.  There  are 
plenty  of  people  there  who  know  about  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  brought  you  to  the  conclusion  that  there  were  only  twenty- 
five  bales  of  blankets  delivered  ?  Did  you  count  them  at  the  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  didn't  count  them,  but  when  Eed  Dog  called  my  at 
tention  to  it  afterward  I  thought  it  was  an  important  matter,  and 
began  to  think  it  over  carefully,  and  arrived  at  that  conclusion. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  ask  the  agent  about  it  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 
Q.  Why  did  n't  you? 
3  IF 


34 

A.  I  was  not  inspecting  at  all.  I  did  not  know  that  there  were  any 
more  sent,  and  it  was  only  when  I  found  Keshaw  had  counted  them, 
and  I  got  this  agent's  receipts  showing  thirty-five  bales  delivered,  that  the 
whole  thing  was  clear  to  me.  If  I  had  seen  his  papers  at  the  time  and 
known  that  he  claimed  to  have  issued  thirty-five  bales,  I  would  have 
said  then  that  it  was  not  true. 

Q.  Your  attention  was  called  to  the  fact  by  the  small  quantity  you 
saw  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     After  Red  Dog  mentioned  it  to  me. 

Q.  You  did  not  ask  the  agent  how  many  there  were? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  the  next  matter  that,  it  strikes  me,  we  want  to  make  some 
inquiries  about  is  in  reference  to  the  beef-cattle.  The  first  statement 
that  I  call  your  attention  to  in  this  connection  is  the  one  claiming  that 
there  is  abundant  evidence  that  the  contract  was  not  made  in  good 
faith— the  contract  with  Foreman.  Now,  besides  what  is  stated  here 
as  your  evidence  on  that  subject,  what,  if  any  other,  evidence  can  you 
cite  us  to  ? 

A.  I  have  a  great  deal  of  information  that  has  come  to  me  in  a  way 
that  I  am  not  at  liberty  to  state,  but  I  will  give  it  to  you,  so  that  you 
may  have  it.  I  will  try  to  give  you  some  memoranda  in  regard  to  it. 
In  the  first  place,  J.  K.  Foreman — and  if  you  are  going  through  Omaha 
you  can  stop  there  and  inquire  who  J.  K.  Foreman  is.  He  is  a  man 
who  puts  in  bids  for  beef.  In  the  first  place,  find  out  whether  he  is  a 
beef-man  at  all  or  not.  Then  you  can  look  into  his  bond  of  $150,000, 
with  two  sureties,  that  was  given  for  the  faithful  performance  of  his  con 
tract. 

Q.  Then  you  will  furnish  us  with  some  other  information  on  that 
point  ? 

A.  I  will.  And  let  me  suggest  here  that  you  inquire  whether  Fore 
man  is  a  proper  man  to  put  in  bids  involving  this  vast  amount  of 
money? 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Who  is  W.  A.  Paxtou  ! 

A.  Mr.  Smith  can  tell  you;  he  knows  him  personally,  I  suppose. 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  do  not  know  him. 

Professor  MARSH.  It  is  understood  he  is  merely  the  agent  of  the  Bos- 
lers.  The  Boslers  have  had  the  contract,  I  believe,  although  the  old 
board  and  the  present  purchasing  committee  tried  to  exclude  them.  It 
is  said  that  the  Boslers  have  virtually  control  of  all  the  beef-contracts. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  whether,  when  a  contract  is  assigned, 
even  with  the  consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the  responsibility 
of  the  original  bond  yet  continues  or  not? 

A.  I  suppose  it  does. 

Mr.  SMITH.  No,  sir ;  it  does  not.    A  new  bond  is  given. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  point  is,  that  I  claim  this  contract  was  given 
to  a  man  (J.  K.  Foreman)  who  was  not  a  responsible  cattle-dealer. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  on  that  point? 

A.  1  have  information  which  I  will  give  you  that  Foreman  was  not  re 
sponsible.  Now,  this  contract  was  transferred.  It  is  a  common  custom 
in  Indian  contracts,  and  has  been  too  common.  It  is  where  the  first 
fraud  begins,  and  you  want  to  get  the  bids  offered  for  the  cattle.  These 


35 

men  make  their  combinations,  each  man  putting  in  half  a  dozen  bids 
(using  straw-bids,  under  whatsoever  names  they  choose)  to  get  the  thinjr 
in  some  way. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  state,  as  you  arrived  at  the  agency,  on  the  9th  of  Novem 
ber,  you  ascertained  there  had  been  no  beef  issued  for  some  time,  and 
there  were  only  seven  head  of  cattle  remaining  from  previous  issues. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  ascertain  that? 

A.  By  inquiring,  and  then  the  agent  afterward  told  me.  Now,  here 
is  an  important  point.  I  quote  from  the  contract:  "  No  contract  shall 
be  assigned  without  the  assent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior."  That 
is  important,  and  I  request  your  attention  to'  the  document  itself,  on 
this  question  of  assignment. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Who  is  W.  A.  Paxton? 

A.  He  is  supposed  to  be  merely  the  agent  of  the  Boslers.  That  in 
formation  you  will  get  at  Cheyenne. 

Q.  Go  on  and  make  a  statement  about  this.  I  want  to  know  how 
much  you  know  about  it.  What  evidence  have  you  that  this  man 
was  the  real  contractor? 

A.  I  had  information  from  men  who  knew  all  about  it,  and  who 
stated  the  particulars  of  it.  One  of  the  Boslers  has  recently  admitted 
it.  (See  Carlisle  (Penn.)  Herald,  July  22,  1875.)  I  think  you  will  find 
that  point  clear. 

Q.  You  claim  no  personal  knowledge  about  that  subject,  but  you  know 
from  other  people. 

A.  I  say  that  every  man  about  the  agency,  who  knows  anything 
about  it,  knows  that  the  Boslers  take  their  cattle  up  there  and  supply 
both  those  agencies.  It  is  perfectly  well  known,  and  you  can  get  that 
information  there. 

Q.  You  say  the  real  beef-contractor  whom  you  found  supplying  the 
agency  was  the  well-known  Bosler,  notorious  for  frauds  in  previous 
contracts,  and  for  this  reason  excluded  by  the  publications  from  any 
participation  in  public  contracts.  How  do'we  get  all  that  ? 

A.  There  is  the  clause  of  exclusion  in  the  regulations. 

Q.  Yes;  but  how  do  you  establish  the  proposition  of  his  notorious 
frauds  in  previous  contracts? 

A.  I  will  give  you  some  information  on  that  point. 

Q.  Now  go  back  again  to  this  subject :  "  On  my  arrival  at  the  agency, 
&c.,  I  ascertained  that  there  had  been  no  beef-issue  for  some  time,  and 
only  seven  head  of  cattle  were  remaining  over  from  previous  issues." 
Now,  you  ascertained  that  from  persons  there  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  will  give  us  their  names? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  ascertained  there  were  only  seven  head  of  cattle  remaining 
there.  Now,  my  object  is  to  ascertain  how  you  knew  there  were  only 
seven  cattle  remaining  there,  and  how  you  can  substantiate  that? 

A.  I  will  tell  you  how  you  can  get  at  that.  A  certain  herd  comes  up 
to  the  agency ;  the  agent  receipts  for  them  to  the  contractor,  and  they 
are  then  in  his  charge.  He  may  issue  all  of  them  or  only  a  part  of  them. 
There  are  sometimes  900  head  coming  at  once.  Suppose  he  only  issues 
400  or  500  of  them,  arid  his  herder  is  in  charge  of  them  until  wanted. 
There  is  the  remnant  left  over  from  the  issue,  and  the  agent  has  charge 


36 

of  them.  To  be  sure  about  this,  I  afterward  asked  the  agent,  iu  the 
presence  of  Mr.  Hinman,  the  interpreter  of  the  Indian  Bureau.  We  went 
to  Saville  and  talked  with  him  about  it,  and  that  we  have.  There  is 
also  the  affidavit  (the  original  of  which  I  have)  given  by  these  three 
Army  officers.  That  fact  can  be  established  by  these  three  men,  who 
went  there  and  saw  themselves. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  That  is  presuming  the  fact. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  agent  stated  that. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  did  not  personally  see  that  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  These  officers  certify  they  were  there  on  the  llth  of  November  and 
saw  that  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  time.  These  were  the  only  cattle  there  at 
that  time.  When  the  contractor  brings  up  his  cattle  his  first  business 
is  to  get  his  receipt  for  them  and  go  away,  and  these  were  the  remnant 
of  the  herd.  The  wording  of  this  is  a  little  obscure,  but  the  meaning,  I 
think,  is  that  these  seven  head  were  left  over  from  a  previous  issue 
made  to  the  Indians. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  whether  that  statement  of  Bradley,  Mix  &  Hay 
was  written  there  ? 

A.  It  was  written  there  by  them  without  the  slightest  suggestion 
from  me,  any  way,  shape,  or  manner,  as  to  what  it  should  be. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  And  sent  from  them  to  Washington? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  When  the  matter  I  mention  was  disputed,  I  telegraphed 
a  line  to  General  Bradley  to  send  me  something  of  the  kind  in  conjunc 
tion  with  Mix  &  Hay — a  statement  regarding  the  cattle  examined  by 
them  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  That  I  never  saw  until  furnished. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Will  you  furnish  us  the  original  of  that? 
A.  I  will  furnish  a  copy  of  it.    I  will  show  you  the  original. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  in  regard  to  this  statement :  "  This  certificate,  which  was 
published  while  the  Sioux  delegation  was  in  Washington,  fully  con 
firmed  my  own  statement  in  regard  to  the  same  cattle  there;'-  and  then 
you  go  on  at  length.  Now,  is  there  any  additional  fact  going  to  show 
any  disposition  on  the  part  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  or 
the  Indian  Bureau,  to  weaken  the  effect  of  this  position  that  you  have 
stated  ? 

A.  If  you  will  put  a  note  opposite  to  the  latter  part  of  that  paragraph, 
"  See  bottom  of  page  33,  under  statement  about  flour.'7  That  is  one  of 
the  things  that  I  refer  to. 

Q.  You  informed  us  that  you  would  furnish  the  name  of  the  person 
from  whom  you  have  the  statement. 

A.  I  gave  it  to  you  confidentially.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  it  right  from  the 
person  to  whom  the  Indian  Commissioner  dictated  it,  and  who  took  the 
dispatch  down  from  his  lips. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  You  mean  the  attempt  to  destroy  the  effect  of  the  testimony  ? 


37 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  as  I  interpret  it.  As  to  this  particular  fact  about 
this  seven  head  of  cattle,  that  dispatch,  as  I  understood  it,  was  sent  to 
counteract  the  effect  of  that  affidavit. 

Q.  You  mean,  of  course,  it  was  a  corrupt  attempt  to  destroy  the 
effect  of  that  evidence,  and  you  mean  to  say  that  dispatch  is  not  true? 

A.  I  mean  to  say  Commissioner  Smith  dictated  that,  just  as  it  is,  to 
the  agent  of  the  Associated  Press,  whose  name  I  have  given  you  con 
fidentially. 

Q.  You  say  this  reply  contained  some  statements  which  you  knew 
to  be  erroneous.  Which  do  you  know  to  be  erroneous  ? 

A.  First,  that  the  cattle  belonged  to  the  contractor. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that? 

A.  Well,  because  getlernen  stated  at  the  agency  that  those  cattle 
were,  as  I  have  already  mentioned,  in  charge  of  the  agent,  and  had 
been  received  from  the  contractor. 

Q.  You  knew  it  from  Saville's  own  statement  ? 

A.  I  did,  subsequently. 

Q.  You  have  already  stated  that  Saville  stated  that. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did. 

Q.  At  the  time  of  your  interview  in  Washington  with  the  agent  and 
Mr.  Hinman,  who  was  with  you? 

A.  Mr.  Hiunian  was  at  this  first  interview. 

Q.  On  the  29th  May,  I  mean. 

A.  Kev.  S.  D.  Hiuman,  who  is  now  on  the  Sioux  commission.  I  after 
ward  asked  him  about  it,  and  showed  him  my  notes,  so  that  there  should 
be  no  mistake  about  it,  and  he  confirmed  every  word. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Do  you  know  where  Mr.  Burt  is  ? 

A.  He  is  on  this  Black  Hills  expedition ;  but  he  comes  down  with  the 
supply-train,  and  you  will  find  him  at  Laramie,  or  somewhere  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now  we  want  S.  D.  Hinmau.  You  state  that  what  Bed  Cloud 
told  you  we  can  of  course  get  at  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  man  ? 

A.  No;  I  will  say  that  that  was  subsequently  confirmed.  The  main 
facts  about  this  matter  were  confirmed  by  a  second  conversation  which 
Agent  Saville  had  with  Bishop  Hare  in  my  presence. 

Q.  Where  is  Bishop  Hare  now  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  exactly.  The  only  differences  were  that  the  agent 
varied  a  little  in  his  statement  about  the  cattle  being  issued,  all  of  them, 
to  the  Indians,  but  not  at  all  about  his  having  received  them.  I  will 
show  you  notes  that  I  took  with  Bishop  Hare — and  he  has  his  own 
notes  also.  To  be  perfectly  true  about  this  fact,  I  went  to  him  with  my 
notes,  and  then  he  signed  his  statement  at  the  foot,  stating  that  the 
notes  which  I  had  were  correct.  Of  course,  he,  having  appointed 
Saville,  or  having  had  to  do  with  it,  deemed  it  his  duty  to  follow  this 
up  closely,  and  questioned  him,  and  I  was  there  at  the  time. 

Q.  Where  is  Maj.  A.  S.  Burt? 

A.  I  have  just  spoken  of  him.  He  is  at  Fort  Laramie,  but  he  proba 
bly  may  be  back  from  that  expedition.  I  will  give  you  the  addresses  o; 
all  of  these  witnesses. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Yes;  and  if  you  can  do  so,  give  the  names  of  any  other  persons 


38 

who  were  there  at  the  time  you  witnessed  this  issue  of  beef  ou  the  14th 
of  November. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Major  Burt  was  the  only  one  that  was  with  me  right  at 
the  issue,  and  stayed  through  the  whole  thing.  There  were  a  number 
of  Army  officers  about  there,  and  he  was  with  me  during  the  whole 
time. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  have  an  estimate  of  anybody  else  about  their  weight? 
These  cattle  were  to  weigh  800  pounds,  were  they  not? 
A.  Eight  hundred  and  fifty  pounds,  sir. 

Q.  They  were  100  pounds  short,  according  to  your  estimate  ? 
A.  Well,  more  than  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Was  Major  Burt  present  at  the  time  Bosler  was  speaking  of  these 
cattle? 

A.  I  won't  be  positive  he  was  at  my  side,  but  he  was  right  within  the 
agency  at  the  time.  He  might  not  have  been  present  at  that  conversa 
tion,  but  he  was  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Can  you  give  in  any  more  precise  words  than  you  have  given  in 
your  statement  the  apology  which  Mr.  Bosler  made? 
A.  You  will  see  that  I  quote  Agent  Saville  on  that  very  point. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Yes.  It  is  stated  that  the  poor  condition  of  the  cattle  is  due  to 
their  hard  driving  to  reach  the  agency. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Of  course,  it  is  evident  that  that  hard  driving  would 
tend  to  reduce  the  weight  of  the  cattle,  but  it  would  not  reduce  the 
skeleton  of  the  cattle.  It  would  reduce  the  weight  very  materially. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  At  the  same  time,  then,  you  had  a  conversation  with  Saville 
about  the  probable  weight  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir  j  that  was  in  Washington,  June  1. 

Q.  You  say,  "The  issue  was  made  on  the  same  afternoon  of  receipt. 
Among  the  cattle  then  issued  were  forty  or  more  small  and  'scalawag7 
cattle.  Saville  was  confident  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would 
weigh  850  pounds  on  an  average.  On  my  questioning  this,  he  insisted 
that  those  he  weighed  came  up  to  the  average,  and  these  were  fully  as 
large."  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  was  in  the  conversation  at  Washing 
ton? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  I  quote  that  as  in  the  Washington  conversation. 

Q.  You  say  you  don't  know  where  Bishop  Hare  now  is? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  had  a  note  from  him  the  other  day,  and  he  was 
at  Bristol,  R.  I.  I  went  to  the  Bible  House,  to  see  him,  last  evening, 
and  it  was  too  late.  I  had  a  long  conference  with  him  a  week  or  two 
ago,  upon  this  very  matter,  so  that  there  should  be  no  discrepancy 
between  Our  notes,  as  we  both  took  notes  on  the  spot.  All  this  confirms 
the  point  I  made  about  the  non-issue  of  the  beef  on  the  8th. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  came  in  on  that  morning,  according  to  your 
information  ? 

A.  The  official  returns — his  receipts — make  701  head.  He  receipted 
for  701  head,  (November  14.) 

Q.  Now,  how  long  a  time  had  the  agent  to  weigh  those  cattle  on  that 
day,  from  your  own  knowledge? 


39 

A.  It  depends  on  how  early  lie  commenced  in  the  morning.  That  I 
know  nothing  about.  He  had  to  get  his  breakfast  and  go  down  to  the 
corral. 

Q.  The  corral  is  how  far  ? 

A.  Half  a  mile  or  so. 

Q.  About  what  time  did  your  difficulty  with  the  Indians  arise  ? 

A.  About  half-past  10  o'clock,  I  should  say. 

Q.  How  long  was  he  with  you '? 

A.  About  two  hours. 

Q.  After  that  trouble  with  the  Indians  he  was  within  your  sight,  and 
could  not  have  gone  down  to  the  corral  to  weigh  any  more  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  he  was  at  the  agency,  not  at  the  corral. 

Q.  The  issue  took  place  that  afternoon  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  he  issued  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  ;  some  300  or  400  5  something  like  that.  I  am  not 
sure  of  the  number. 

Q.  How  long  would  it  take  to  weigh  300  or  400  ? 

A.  He  weighs  them  when  the  herd  come  in,  not  when  he  issues  them. 

Q.  Suppose  he  got  a  herd  of  700  cattle  that  morning ;  suppose  he 
made  up  his  mind  to  issue  400  on  that  day.  Now  he  has  got  700  cattle 
in  that  pen,  and  is  going  to  issue  300  or  400 ;  what  is  to  prevent  his 
putting  300  in  one  pen  and  weighing  them,  and  weighing  the  rest  after 
ward? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  here  is  his  own  statement.  The  issue  did  not 
conclude  until  dark,  and  he  started  the  next  morning  for  Cheyenne. 
u  The  cattle  arrived  that  morning,  and  he  weighed  the  most  of  them 
that  morning.77 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  This  is  a  true  copy  of  that  voucher  in  the  Second  Auditor's  Office, 
on  page  26  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  you  will  find  the  original  on  file  in  the  Office  there  of  all 
those  documents. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  on  the  27th  page.    What  persons  can  we  refer  to  for  that  ? 
A.  I  will  give  you  some  names  in  regard  to  that. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  actual  quantity  of  cattle  delivered 
on  the  14th,  except  from  the  official  report  ? 

A.  I  saw  them.  I  saw  every  one  issued  from  the  corral  to  the  Indians, 
from  the  first  to  the  last.  I  came  down  with  the  agent,  and  he  told  me, 
in  answer  to  questions  about  this  cattle-issue,  when  it  was  coming  off, 
and  I  went  down  to  see  it.  He  said  I  must  keep  near  the  corral,  or  I 
would  get  shot.  The  crier  called  out  so  many  head  for  Eed  Cloud,  for 
instance,  and  they  turned  out  a  number  of  cattle.  There  were  perhaps 
a  thousand  Indians  on  a  side,  placed  in  lines,  and  when  these  cattle 
came  running  down  these  lines  of  Indians,  the  boys  would  shoot  their 
arrows  into  them  and  pursue  them  over  the  plain  until  they  killed  them. 
Then  the  squaws  cut  them  up  and  took  them  to  their  lodges,  and  the 
hides  were  taken  to  the  traders  to  sell,  where  they  get  their  ammuni 
tion,  &c. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  What  experience  have  you  had  in  weighing  cattle  ? 


40 

A.  Well,  I  was  brought  up  on  a  farm,  and  aui  familiar  with  such 
matters. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  weighed  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  have  seen  them  weighed. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  practice  in  the  estimate  of  the  weight  of 
cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have,  more  or  less.  I  have  been  out  West  on  some 
six  expeditions,  and  have  bought  cattle  to  eat  from  passing  herds. 

Q.  Buy  them  by  wreight  or  estimate  ? 

A.  We  would  take  out  a  steer  and  estimate  his  weight,  and  fix  a 
price  upon  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  have  no  doubt  about  the  quantity  of  cattle  being  701  ? 

A.  I  do  not  say  anything  about  that  here.  I  state  further  on  that  I 
do  not  believe  the  correct  number  are  given.  I  think  this  number  is 
fraudulent. 

Q.  You  did  not  count  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Among  these  cattle  there  were  many  yearlings,  and  what 
they  call  "  scalawags." 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  give  your  estimate  of  their  weight  from  your  own  observa 
tion  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  they  weighed  about  750  pounds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     That  is  a  large  estimate. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  say  this  was  a  poor  herd  of  Texas  cattle.  Have  you  seen 
many  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  I  have,  hundreds  of  herds. 

Q.  And  this  you  regarded  as  a  poor  lot? 

A.  The  poorest  lot  I  ever  saw.  Now,  this  was  November,  when  the 
grass  had  just  begun  to  fail,  and  when  the  cattle  should  have  been  fat, 
if  ever.  You  will  see  here  that  at  this  time,  when  cattle  were  fattened, 
this  was  the  poorest  herd  I  saw.  Of  course,  when  the  cold  weather  came 
on  they  would  keep  failing,  but  you  will  find  that  the  prices  the  Govern 
ment  paid  for  them  were  about  the  same  right  along.  I  have  no  doubt 
the  receipts  were  cooked  up  systematically. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Upon  that  point  of  numbers,  what  evidence  have  you  ? 

A.  I  give  it  further  on. 

Q.  When  you  say  you  think  he  did  not  receive  as  many  as  he  cer 
tified  to,  what  evidence  have  you  except  your  opinion  ? 

A.  I  saw  these  frauds  in  weight,  and  tliere,  on  page  27,  I  take  up  this 
point  of  number. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  equal  reason  to  believe  equal  rascality  is  prac 
ticed  in  point  of  number.  That  is  not  your  personal  knowledge? 

A.  I  have  already  stated  in  regard  to  this  that  I  have  information 
about  the  seven  head  of  cattle  there  at  the  agency.  I  have  information 
from  Saville  and  two  other  individuals.  I  take  that  up  and  compare  it 
with  the  provision-returns,  and  when  you  get  the  provision-returns  you 
can  judge  for  yourselves. 

Q.  You  say  he  should  have  had  on  hand,  by  his  returns,  four  hundred 
and  thirty  head  of  cattle,  whereas  he  only  had  seven? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


41 

Q.  So  that  you  say  there  is  a  fraud  of  four  hundred  and  twenty-three 
head  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  do,  and  worse  than  that.  When  I  mention  the  fact  that  he 
gave  his  receipt  to  the  contractor  if  his  cattle  did  not  weigh  what  he 
€harged  the  Government  for  them,  there  was  another  fraud. 

Q.  Well,  suppose  they  were  up  to  the  standard? 

A.  Suppose  they  actually  weighed  what  he  charged  the  Government, 
then  he  was  short  four  hundred  and  twenty  three  head. 

Q.  So  that  your  theory  is  that,  on  the  llth  of  November,  you  claim 
that  the  evidence  already  in  supports  the  proposition  that  at  least  he 
was  short  four  hundred  and  twenty -three  head  of  cattle ;  that  he  never 
had  them,  in  fact? 

A.  That  is  it  substantially,  in  different  words,  but  the  same  thing. 
Now,  if  he  gives  the  contractor  a  receipt  for  a  great  many  more  cattle, 
in  number,  than  he  received  absolutely,  how  does  he  account  for  it  ?  I 
reply  he  claims  to  issue  to  a  great  many  more  Indians  than  were  there, 
and  at  times  when  they  were  not  issued. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  say  he  should  have  had  450,000  pounds.  Now,  why  should 
he  have  had  that  amount  ? 

A.  The  point  is  that  when  he  beginn  a  new  quarter  his  books  show  lie 
has  so  many  pounds  of  beef  on  hand,  and  whatever  subsequently  comes 
in  he  receipts  for,  and  that  adds  to  that,  and  taking  out  the  amount  he 
claims  to  have  issued  shows  what  he  should  have. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now  pass  to  this  point  of  the  stampeding  of  cattle.  You  will  give 
us  the  names  of  other  persons  besides  Louis  Keshaw  that  will  give  us 
information  on  that  point  ? 

A.  I  will  5  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  ever  inquire  into  the  matter  of  whether  or  not  these 
cattle  that  are  taken  up  on  the  returns  of  the  agent,  and  which  he  car 
ries  on  his  returns  as  being  on  hand,  whether  he  gets  credit  otherwise 
than  by  the  issue  of  them  ?  For  instance,  may  not  these  cattle  that 
have  stampeded  be  cattle  taken  up  on  his  returns  and  credited  to  his 
returns  as  well  ? 

A.  Cattle  that  have  not  been  taken  up  ? 

Q.  That  have  been  taken  up,  received,  and  accounted  for  as  in  his 
possession  and  stampeded,  how  does  he  get  credit  for  them  again  ? 

A.  I  say  on  page  29,  "Another  fruitful  source  of  fraud  in  cattle  at 
the  Eed  Cloud  agency  is  the  system  of  stampeding,  which  appears  to  have 
been  practiced  there,  at  least  since  the  present  agent  took  charge." 
Now,  I  will  say  here,  the  contractor  has  a  large  herd  on  the  Platte 
River,  and  he  sometimes  had  a  herd  on  the  Eiinning  Water,  forty  or 
fifty  odd  miles  off.  Now,  you  know  how  easy  it  is  to  stampede  a  herd 
of  Texas  cattle.  A  hail-storm  may  do  it,  or  an  Indian  may  do  it  with  a 
blanket.  Now,  when  they  are  started,  they  run  right  back  to  the  origi 
nal  herd  where  they  came  from.  Now,  when  an  agent  sends  down  to 
the  contractor  for  a  certain  number  of  cattle,  as  Saville  did  in  this  case, 
he  tells  him  how  many  he  wants ;  he  sends  down  a  messenger  for  so 
many  cattle.  Now,  the  contractor  gets  out  such  a  number  of  those 
cattle,  and  they  don't  want  to  go.  They  are  driven  up  there  by  force 
by  a  lot  of  herders.  When  they  are  stampeded,  they  go  right  back. 
When  they  are  driven  up  there,  the-  agent  receives  them  arid  receipts 
for  them  to  the  contractor,  and  then  the  Government  owns  them. 

Q.  He  has  receipted  for  them,  and,  to  make  his  account  balance,  he 
must  take  them  up  on  his  returns  9 


42 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  Boslers  get  their  receipt  from  the  agent,  and,  I  am 
told,  get  their  money  at  Washington. 

Q.  Now,  the  agent  having  received  these  cattle  and  taken  them  up 
on  his  return,  if  they  are  stampeded  and  driven  back  again,  how  does 
the  agent  account  for  them  ? 

A.  That  is  for  him  to  explain.     I  know  nothing  about  that. 

Q.  Might  not  that  account  for  his  appearing  to  have  180,000  pounds 
of  beef  on  hand  when  he  had  only  seven  head  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that,  sir.  This  particular  stampede 
was  in  another  quarter  of  the  year.  You  may  tell  when  you  get  his 
provision -returns.  Now,  about  the  Boslers,  yon  can  get  at  the  character 
of  these  men  from  cattle-men,  whose  names  1  will  give  you,  and  who  also 
have  a  herd  in  Nebraska  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  is  the  explanation  about  this  contract  of  March  17,  1870,  by 
which  Paxton  made  a  new  contract  for  supplies  for  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  I  have  the  official  copy  of  the  second  contract.  Now,  the  point  in 
regard  to  that  is 

Q.  Are  we  to  be  furnished  with  that! 

A.  Of  course;  that  is  one  of  the  documents  that  will  come.  You 
must  have  all  these  contracts.  Now,  you  will  notice  the  terms  of  these 
contracts.  This  is  part  of  each  contract :  "  The  Interior  Department  re 
serves  to  itself  the  right  in  accepting  any  bid  to  add  to  that  amount  25 
per  cent.77  So  that  the  cattle  furnished  under  the  first  contract  might 
have  been  increased,  if  necessary ;  but  here  is  where  I  detect  those  large 
frauds.  Now,  this  Paxton  failed  to  meet  his  contract ;  that  is,  he  had 
been  cheating  the  Government  in  the  quantity  and  weight  of  the  cattle. 
Now,  that  was  perfectly  well  known  to  every  one  there,  and  commonly 
talked  about. 

Q.  Do  you  know  it? 

A.  That  is  what  1  am  trying  to  give  you.  I  say  that  that  contract 
was  not  carried  out;  and  hence  the  bondsmen  should  have  been  called 
on  to  make  that  contract  good.  I  have  given  names  of  quite  a  number 
of  persons  who  have  given  information  on  that  subject. 

Q.  What  is  your  idea  why  it  was  that  it  became  necessary  to  make 
a  private  contract  with  Paxton  for  the  delivery  of  beef  at  $3  per  100 
pounds  ? 

A.  It  was  not  necessary.  The  previous  contract,  which  had  been  vio 
lated,  mentioned  a  lower  price.  If  proposals  had  been  advertised  for 
properly,  bids  could  have  been  obtained  from  honest  men  at  a  less  price 
than  under  the  private  contract. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  that  he  furnished  a  lower  quantity  1  It  took  6,000,000 
pounds  gross  weight  of  beef-cattle  on  the  hoof  to  supply  Eed  Cloud 
agency.  Now,  do  you  claim  that  the  agent  and  contractor  had  claimed 
that  that  amount  was  exhausted  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say.  The  contract  may  have  varied  a  little  from  that. 
There  is  a  certain  number  of  pounds  named  in  the  contract,  and  here  is 
this  evidence  of  frauds  in  receipting  for  more  cattle  than  came.  One 
point  I  make  is,  that  that  contract  was  not  exhausted.  Now,  it  states 
in  the  contract  that  it  was  expressly  stipulated  that  all  beef  offered  for 
acceptance  under  this  contract  shall  be  subject  to  a  certain  inspection,  ' 
and  if  not  according  to  the  terms  of  the  contract,  it  shall  be  rejected. 
The  point  I  make  here  is  that  those  cattle  ought  to  have  been  rejected, 
first,  as  to  quality,  and  then,  when  they  did  not  come  up  to  the  standard 
when  inspected,  the  agent  should  have  required  the  contractor  to  fur- 


43 

nish  a  proper  amount  of  beef,  or  calle'd  upon  the  bondsmen.  If  they  did 
not  furnish  it,  it  was  his  duty  to  report  it  to  the  Department,  and  the 
duty  of  the  Department  to  call  on  that  bond,  not  to  give  a  new  contract 
to  the  same  man. 

Q.  Now,  we  will  suppose  the  agent  and  contractor  and  inspector  were 
in  collusion.  Then  the  Department  at  Washington,  of  course,  would 
not  be  involved  in  the  violation  of  the  contract  ?  •• 

A.  I  claim  they  should  have  known  that.  I  would  say  that  the  man 
managing  the  Department,  if  it  was  repeatedly  called  to  his  attention 
that  a  certain  agent  was  not  discharging  his  duty,  and  that  the  Indians 
were  suffering,  should  see  to  it. 

Q.  My  question  is  this:  Assuming  that  the  agent,  inspector7  and 
contractor  had  conspired  to  defraud  the  Government  and  the  Indians 
both,  it  would  not  be  presumed  that  they  would  send  evidence  of  their 
fraud  to  the  Department  at  Washington.  Now,  if  the  Commissioner, 
supposing  their  reports  to  be  true,  and  that  there  was  not  beef  enough  to 
carry  the  Indians  through  the  season,  whether  it  would  be  illegal  for 
him  to  make  a  private  contract  ? 

A.  I  should  say  it  would  be  illegal  in  this  case,  for  the  reason  that  no 
bids  are  to  be  accepted  from  persons  detected  of  frauds,  and  a  private 
contract  is  worse. 

Q.  My  question  assumes  that  he  does  not  know  there  is  fraud. 

A.  Well,  that  is  a  different  thing.     I  know  facts  to  the  contrary. 

Q.  You  charge  the  Commissioner  with  fraud.  I  assume  and  say  that 
the  Commissioner,  to  be  guilty  of  fraud,  must  be  aware  of  the"  facts 
which  you  say  existed,  and  I  want  now  to  follow  that  up,  to  see  if  I  can 
get  at  any  evidence  bearing  upon  that  subject  more  than  we  have 
already  got. 

A.  I  say  on  page  27,  although  this  contract  had  been  violated  in  all 
its  important  features,  and  shameful  frauds  practiced  in  its  fulfillment, 
Commissioner  Smith  did  not  call  on  the  bondsmen  of  the  contractor  for 
satisfaction,  as  the  law  required  him  to  do.  That  is  the  first  point. 

Q.  That  assumes  that  he  knew  all  about  it. 

A.  Well,  I  say  he  made  a  new  contract  privately,  when  he  must  have 
known  that  he  was  merely  renewing  a  contract  with  Bosler. 

Q.  The  point  you  make  on  the  twentieth  page  is  a  different  thing7: 
"  This  contract  was  illegal/7  &c. 

A.  Had  he  advertised  for  proposals  then,  the  fact  would  have  come 
out,  and  the  Government  gained  by  it. 

Q.  When  was  that  contract  made  ? 

A.  March  17,  1875. 

Q.  That  would  be  a  contract  to  carry  out  the  supply  until  what 
period  ? 

A.  For  the  fiscal  year. 

Q.  Until  the  end  of  June  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  course,  if  these  parties  knew  all  about  it,  there  would  be  fraud; 
but  suppose  the  supply  from  any  cause  falls  short  in  March,  is  it  not  in 
the  power  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  supply  those  Indians, 
even  if  he  makes  a  private  contract  ? 

A.  I  think  it  would  be  very  bad  thing  for  the  Commissioner  to  do, 
looking  after  the  interests  of  the  Government  and  the  Indians.  If  you 
make  a  private  contract  you  cannot  get  bids.  In  the  first  place,  you  do 
not  get  as  low  prices  as  otherwise.  A  private  contract  for  Indian  sup 
plies  is  a  matter  of  suspicion. 

Q.  Is  not  the  system  of  asking  for  bids  a  bad  practice? 

A.  A  fair  competition,  it  seems  to  me,  is  the  best  that  can  be  done. 


44 

Here  is  this  contract  given  to  Paxton  without  advertising,  and  I  show 
how  this  contract  is  carried  out. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Suppose  I  didn't  know  that  these  frauds  were  being  per 
petrated. 

Professor  MARSH.  If  you  didn't  know  about  these  frauds  being  per 
petrated,  I  have  nothing  to  say.  You  certainly  were  toid  of  them. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  That  is  the  point  I  want.  I  want  to  know  the  names  of  persons 
who  can  give  this. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  will  give  the  names  of  the  persons  who  reported  these 
frauds. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  No  matter  how  much  fraud  might  have  been  reported  to  the  Com 
missioner  about  cattle  and  other  things ;  how  do  you  connect  that  with 
the  making  of  the  new  contract  ? 

A.  I  would  say,  if  there  had  been  frauds  in  cattle  by  a  perfectly  well- 
known  man  in  his  supplying  cattle,  that  special  precautions  ought  to 
be  taken,  especially  if  Paxton  is  proved  to  be  the  mere  tool  of  the  Bos- 
lers,  as  everybody  there  knew. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  that  the  Commissioner  knew  who  Pax- 
ton  was,  and  what  he  was,  or  what  relation  he  had  with  Bosler  ? 

A.  I  think  he  must  have  known  that  fact,  because  the  information  of 
the  general  state  of  affairs  there — cattle  and  other  things — had  been 
coming  in  in  various  ways. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  papers  or  any  witnesses  that  can  give  us  that 
information  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  You  must  see  that  a  commission  investigating  as  we  are 
cannot  take  a  statement  of  what  everybody  knows,  but  must  have  some 
thing  to  trace  it  down  to  the  actual  facts. 

WITNESS.  I  think  I  can  give  you  that  information.  I  think  I  can 
show  that  the  frauds  under  Paxton  had  been  taking  place  all  the  time. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Can  you  show  that  I  knew  it  ? 

WITNESS.  Well,  the  information  was  given  to  your  Department. 
You  have  admitted  that  that  agent  was  wholly  incompetent.  What 
more  is  required  ? 

Mr.  HARRIS.  If  you  can  show  that  that  information  was  given  to  the 
Department — reasonable  information — of  course  the  Department  is  bound 
to  take  notice  of  it. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  make  the  charge  of  mismanagement  and  fraud 
both. 

Mr.  SMITH.  The  professor  states  that  so  many  reports  have  been 
made  to  me.  I  will  ask  whether  he  does  not  know  that  these  reports 
were  inquired  into,  and  that  a  very  strong  official  report  was  made  to 
me  by  persons  that  I  had  a  right  to  place  confidence  in  ? 

Professor  MARSH.  I  know  the  contrary  of  that.  The  report  to  which 
the  Commissioner  refers  was  made  by  a  special  commission,  sent  out  to 
look  into  that  agency,  and  answer  the  charges  as  they  could.  The  report 
Mr.  Smith  has  just  quoted  was  published,  and  he  knows  perfectly  well 
that  two  or  three  of  the  members  of  that  commission  have  come  back 
and  given  information  that  they  were  mistaken  on  points  affecting  the 
management  of  the  agency. 

Mr.  SMITH.  That  is  exactly  what  I  do  not  know. 

Professor  MARSH.  Then  that  is  one  of  those  things  I  am  going  to  give 


45 

you  in  regard  to  that  report.     I  say  this  was  communicated  to  the  Inte 
rior  Department. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  think  the  professor  should  state  what  he  knows,  and 
the  commission  will  give  Mr.  Smith  as  full  an  opportunity  to  meet  it  as 
he  is  given  to  state  it. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  parties  who  made  those  statements  to  the 
Department  were  sent  out  by  the  Department,  and  they  afterward  gave 
information  to  the  Department  touching  Red  Cloud  agency. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Is  this  information  given  in  the  form  of  an  official 
report  ? 

Professor  MARSH.  They  were  official.  I  wish  to  say  now  that  some 
of  the  members  of  Bishop  Hare's  commission,  which  reported  favorably 
on  the  affairs  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency  in  April,  1874,  gave  additional 
evidence  on  the  same  subject  to  the  Interior  Department,  showing  an 
unfavorable  state  of  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  make  the  additional 
statement  that  two  of  those  commissioners  gave  damaging  testimony  as 
to  the  agent  and  the  affairs  of  Red  Cloud  agency  to  Commissioner 
Smith  himself,  or  his  Bureau.  This  was  before  my  visit ;  hence  he  can 
not  plead  ignorance. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  propose  to  ask  you  to  give  us  the  names  of  these  men, 
and  let  us  get  the  information  from  them. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  will  do  so. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  The  next  subject  we  have  is  that  of  pork.  In  regard 
to  that  matter  this  statement  is  very  full.  It  refers  to  Major  Burt,  who 
was  present  at  the  time  of  the  issue  of  the  pork  which  you  saw,  and 
your  statement  here  as  to  the  quality  of  it  is  entirely  full,  and  I  think 
there  is  no  necessity  of  going  into  that  more  fully. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  point  I  made  on  the  blankets  applies  here  as 
well.  When  this  pork  came  up,  it  was  so  bad  that  the  agent  himself 
saw  that  it  was  not  fit  for  food ;  and  when  the  contractor  came  up,  I 
understand  he  told  him  so,  and  he  said,  "Well,  never  mind,  I  will 
make  it  all  right  on  the  next  lot,"  or  something  of  that  kind.  Now,  the 
moment  you  fail  to  hold  those  people  up  to  the  standard  of  the  sample 
according  to  which  the  purchase  was  made,  then  the  fraud  commences. 
Now,  that  $21  a  barrel  ought  to  have  got  wholesome  food  is  certain. 
This  pork  was  horrible. 

Q.  Did  you  call  the  agent's  attention  to  the  quality  of  the  pork  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  agent  was  off  at  Cheyenne,  and  before  he  got  back  I 
started  for  Fort  Laramie.  Now,  these  pieces  of  pork  that  were  lying 
around  in  front  of  the  warehouse,  (that  was  in  November— the  15th,) 
which  the  Indians  threw  away,  it  being  so  bad,  when  they  so  nearly 
starved  in  the  winter  they  went  around  and  picked  up  those  same  rot 
ten  pieces  of  pork  to  save  themselves  Irom  suffering.  Now,  Red  Cloud, 
when  in  Washington,  complained  of  this  pork  bitterly,  and  stated  that 
he  thought  some  of  the  children  had  died  in  consequence  of  eating  it. 
There  is  a  case  where,  it  strikes  me,  the  bondsmen  of  Mr.  Slavens  should 
be  held  responsible.  He  is  a  contractor,  getting  contracts  right  along; 
and  I  say  that  the  Indian  Bureau,  who  have  this  responsibility  on  them, 
should  be  held  to  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  there  is  something  said  about  a  report  of  that  being  made. 
A.  There  is  such  a  report  there,  made  by  the  agent,  and  Mr.  Smith 
will  doubtless  give  you  a  copy  of  it. 
Q.  The  agent  stopped  this. 


46 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  stopped  this  delivery  of  pork.  I  do  not  know  who  it 
was  that  I  complained  to  about  it,  but  I  spoke  of  it,  and  that  was  the 
last  issue  made  of  that  pork.  The  agent  stopped  issuing  it  then,  but 
he  told  me  in  Washington  that,  subsequently,  when  they  ran  short  of 
provisions  at  his  agency  in  the  winter,  he  issued  the  rest  of  it.  When 
he  wrote  to  the  Department,  he  mentioned  that  the  Indians  complained 
of  it,  or  something  of  that  kind,  and  the  contractor  said  he  would  make 
it  all  right. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Who  did  this  contractor  make  the  remark  to  that  he  would  make  it 
all  right  ? 

A.  To  the  agent.  That  pork-contract  will  be  one  of  the  contracts 
that  will  come  under  your  requisition. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q,  Do  the  Indians  like  pork  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  they  do.  I  think  it  is  a  mistake  to  give 
them  pork. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  much  flour  was  there  in  the  warehouse  at  the  time  you 
were  there? 

A.  I  could  not  say  exactly. 

Q.  The  flour  was  to  be  "fresh  ground,  of  XX  quality,"  &c.  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  copied  right  from  the  contract  itself. 

Q.  It  was  to  be  in  double  sacks.  Now,  you  saw  flour  in  single  sacks 
in  the  hands  of  Indian  women,  and  you  saw  a  considerable  quantity  in 
the  warehouse.  Have  you  any  idea  how  much  ? 

A.  Fifteen  or  twenty  sacks,  at  least.    I  do  not  know  exactly. 

Q.  Were  there  any  sacks  there  that  you  saw  marked— branded  as  the 
law  requires  ? 

A.  I  did  not  notice  that. 

Q.  You  state  that  you  did  not  notice  any  brand,  though  some  of  them 
may  have  bad  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.    Did  you  see  any  bread  made  by  the  Indians  from  this  flour? 

A.  I  did  j  not  to  examine  it  closely.  I  did  not  eat  it,  but  I  saw  it  in  the 
lodges. 

Q.  Is  there  any  of  that  flour  noV,  that  you  know  of,  in  existence  f 

A.  I  have  a  sample  that  Red  Cloud  gave  us,  and  I  have  a  sample  of 
the  flour  on  which  the  contract  is  based.  That  is  the  only  sample  I 
have  obtained. 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  have  got  the  samples  of  the  coffee,  sugar,  and 
tobacco,  and  will  satisfy  the  commission  they  are  the  original  samples. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  bid  is  made  for  the  flour,  &c.,  and  the  sample  is  furnished  to 
the  Department  with  the  bid  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  bid  is  accepted  upon  that  sample ;  the  contract  is  entered  into, 
and  it  is  furnished  as  per  sample? 

A.  Exactly. 

Q.  Now,  then,  it  iis  furnished  and  inspected  before  it  is  turned  over 
to  the  Indian  agent1? 

A.  It  should  be. 


47 

Mr.  SMITH.  It  is. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  It  is  inspected  upon  the  samples,  to  see  that  it  cor 
responds  with  the  samples  furnished J? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Where  is  it  inspected  ? 

Mr.  SMITH.  At  Cheyenne  or  at  Omaha. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Then  is  the  Indian  agent  furnished  with  the  sam 
ples  upon  which  the  bid  is  made,  so  that  he  may  see  that  the  article 
furnished  is  as  per  sample  furnished  ? 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  am  not  sure  that  was  done  last  year.  It  is  done  this 
year. 

Professor  MARSH.  That  is  one  point  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to — 
that  the  Department  neglected  to  furnish  the  agent  with  samples  of  some 
things.  Of  some  things  he  had  samples,  and  some  he  had  not.  That 
is  what  he  stated  to  Bishop  Hare. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Is  the  agent  the  inspector  ? 

Professor  MARSH.  He  is  of  some  things,  but  not  of  flour. 

Mr.  SMITH.  No,  sir ;  he  is  inspector  of  beef  only,  which  is  to  be  in 
spected  there  and  cannot  be  anywhere  else. 

Professor  MARSH.  Who  is  inspector  of  pork  ? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Mr.  Threlkeld,  of  Kansas  City;  appointed  by  Robert 
Campbell,  of  the  old  board  of  commissioners.  I  think  his  initials  are 
T.  K. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  He  is  inspector  of  pork  and  flour  ? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Yes,  sir;  if  there  is  any  there  he  inspects  the  flour. 

Professor  MARSH.  Of  the  southern  agencies,  but  not  of  the  Red  Cloud. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Who  is  the  inspector  of  flour  at  that  agency  ? 

Professor  MARSH.  In  September  Major  Long  came  in,  but  the  fiscal 
year  began  in  July  ;  and  there  were  two  months  in  which  this  bad  flour 
came  in. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Who  was  the  inspector  of  floifr  from  July  to  September? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Barclay  White,  of  Omaha,  who  was  directed  to  inspect 
that  flour  personally  or  by  expert.  I  have  no  other  inspector  except 
Barclay  White  and  Major  Long  at  Cheyenne. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Yrour  statement  is  that  this  lot  of  flour  was  not  inspected  ? 

A.  I  state  that  I  am  informed  that  Doctor  Irwin,  agent  for  the  Sho- 
shone  Indians,  who  was  then  in  Cheyenne,  detected  the  bad  quality  of 
the  flour,  and  telegraphed  the  Department  that  the  flour  was  a  fraud. 
I  suppose  that  will  be  one  of  the  reports  that  will  come  in  under  your 
requisition.  Agent  Saville  was  at  Cheyenne  at  that  time,  as  I  have 
stated. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  this  citizen  of  Cheyenne  is  who  is  directed  to 
retain  a  sample  of  the  flour? 

A.  I  do,  and  I  will  give  you-  his  name  confidentially ;  I  thought 
it  was  better  not  to  mention  it  in  the  pamphlet.  He  and  McCann  are 
the  two  leading  Indian-ring  men  in  Cheyenne,  and  it  was  generally 
understood  that  he  is  a  partner  with  McCaun,  sharing  in  certain  mat 
ters,  and  also  interested  in  quite  a  number  of  things  there.  Now,  I 
state  here  that  Agent  Saville  says  distinctly  that  his  orders  were  from 
the  Department,  from  Commissioner  Smith,  to  send  that  flour  on  to  the 
agency  without  further  inspection  than  leaving  a  sample  for  subsequent 
inspection. 


48 

Mr.  SMITH.  One  single  remark,  and  you  will  have  it  all.  Not  to  re 
ceipt  for  the  flour  until  the  sample  was  compared  with  the  sample  given, 
and  found  to  be  equal  to  the  sample  upon  which  the  contract  was  based. 
You  will  remember  that  I  said  nothing  about  Mr.  French.  I  directed  a 
competent  man  to  be  found  to  do  it,  and  Mr.  Saville  found  that  man.  I 
had  not  the  slightest  knowledge  of  who  the  flour  was  left  with  until 
afterward. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Who  was  this  Dr.  Irwin  ? 

A.  He  is  the  agent  of  the  Shoshone  Indians.  I  will  give  you  the 
name  of  the  man  who  has  information  of  the  character  of  the  cattle  that 
were  sent  to  Dr.  Irwin,  and  his  action  in  regard  to  it,  in  trying  to  pro 
tect  the  rights  of  the  Indians  against  these  contractors. 

Q.  Where  shall  we  find  that  communication  of  June  19  from  Major 
Long? 

A.  I  have  it. 

Q.  To  whom  is  it  addressed  ? 

A.  It  is  indirectly  to  me,  through  a  friend  of  mine. 

Q.  Not  a  report  to  the  Department  ? 

A.  No  sir.  I  sent  out  to  know  about  the  matter,  asking  some  ques 
tions  of  a  man  whom  I  knew  could  get  to  Major  Long.  My  friend  sent 
this  to  Long,  and  he  answered  the  inquiry  in  his  own  handwriting  'I 

Q.  Where  is  Major  Long  ? 

A.  He  is  still  at  Cheyenne,  or  at  Camp  Carling,  which  is  close  to 
Cheyenne. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Now  we  come  to  the  sugar  and  coffee. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  You  say  the  sugar  was  dark  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  saw  the  sugar  myself.  Now,  I  went  down  to  82  White 
street,  here,  and  saw  the  samples  from  which  the  purchases  for  the 
present  fiscal  year  were  made.  That  was  a  totally  different  sugar,  and 
one  of  the  purchasing  committee  who  examined  this  sample  that  Ked 
Cloud  gave  me  with  a  great  deal  of  care  said,  "  That  is  a  very  inferior 
grade  of  sugar/7  It  would  have  been  in] possible  for  him  to  have  got 
any  such  sugar  at  the  agency  unless  it  had  been  issued  there. 

Q.  Do  not  the  traders  keep  it? 

A.  Yes  ;  I  suppose  they  do. 

Q.  Coffee  you  did  not  see  in  bulk,  but  at  one  of  the  lodges;  this  was 
inferior  in  quality.  That  probably  is  a  rather  intangible  test? 

A.  I  would  say  that,  among  the  names  I  shall  give  you,  you  can  make 
inquiries  about  that  sugar  and  coffee,  and  get  specific  information  un 
doubtedly. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  tobacco  in  the  warehouse  ? 

A.  Not  to  examine  it. 

Q.  Then  all  the  tobacco  you  saw  was  in  the  hands  of  Indians  f 

A.  I  saw  it  at  the  time  of  issue.  It  was  all  dark  color,  and  in  large 
plugs.  This  that  Red  Cloud  brought  us  we  broke  open,  and  as  we 
broke  it  a  dark  viscous  stuff  came  out  of  it.  It  was  rotten  and  fearful 
stuff. 

Q.  Who  were  the  officers  with  you  ? 

A.  There  were  Colonel  Mix  and  Lieutenant  Hay,  certain  ;  and  I  think 
Major  Burt,  although  I  won't  be  sure  about  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 
Q.  You  state  here  that  all  the  tobacco  you  saw  was  of  that  character  ? 


49 

A.  Yes,  sir,  essentially  the  same. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  any  of  the  other  Indians  besides  Ked  Cloud  ? 

A.  Having  once  had  our  attention  called  to  this,  there  was  a  big 
laugh  when  they  broke  open  this  plug,  and  they  called  the  others  to 
look  at  it;  and  after  that,  when  they  would  ask  Indians  for  tobacco  to 
examine,  we  looked  at  it.  I  saw  tobacco  used  by  Eed  Cloud,  Ked  Dog 
and  Man  Afraid  of  his  Horses ;  and  in  one  of  the  councils  I  smoked 
some  of  the  tobacco.  This  that  I  saw  at  this  agency  was  of  dark  color. 
1  saw  the  other  day  the  sample  of  the  tobacco  from  which  the  purchases 
for  this  year  were  made,  down  at  White  street,  and  it  was  of  a  light 
color,  and  totally  different  in  character. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  There  were  two  kinds  of  tobacco  purchased  this  year.  Did  you 
see  both  samples  ? 

A.  I  do  not  think  I  saw  but  one  sample.  The  first  day  Red  Cloud 
came  down  to  dine  with  me  we  had  some  good  cigars,  and  gave  him 
some  ;  and  he  said,  "  That's  nice.  After  smoking  such  vile  tobacco  as 
we  smoke  here,  it  is  a  pleasure  to  get  good  tobacco."  So  when  the  old 
man  went  away  we  gave  him  some  good  tobacco. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  further  information  you  can  give  us  about  the  to 
bacco  '•? 

A.  You  can  ask  of  them  at  the  agency  when  you  are  there.  Ask 
those  officers  and  other  men  who  know  the  quality  of  the  tobacco  issued 
in  the  last  fiscal  year.  Possibly  you  may  find  some  in  the  warehouse  of 
that  sort. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  on  the  subject  of  the  sufferings  of  the  Indians ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  information  in  regard  to  that  you  will  get  there  at 
the  agency.  At  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  I  am  informed  the  suffering 
was  so  great  that  there  were  quite  a  number  of  deaths  in  consequence 
of  the  want  of  food  and  clothing.  I  will  give  you  names  of  persons 
that  will  testify  in  regard  to  that.  This  is  particularly  important  about 
Spotted  Tail's  agency,  because  when  he  was  in  Washington,  and  wanted 
to  make  his  complaints,  and  started  two  or  three  times  to  make  them, 
the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  said  in  substance  :  Stop  right  there.  I 
don't  want  to  hear  that  now,  but  will  give  you  a  chance  another  time. 

Mr.  SMITH.  He  did  have  a  chance,  and  was  invited  to  come  at  any 
time.  Several  times  a  day  was  set  for  him  to  come  and  make  his  com 
plaint  about  his  agency. 

Professor  MARSH.  1  was  about  to  say  that  Spotted  Tail  has  a  good 
deal  to  tell  about  the  suffering  of  his  agency  last  winter.  Reliable  men 
there  have  a  great  deal  to  tell  about  it,  and  it  is  very  important  that 
they  should  be  got  at.  General  Bradley,  who  is  in  command  of  the 
Black  Hills  district,  is  at  Fort  Laramie,  and  will,  I  think,  be  able  to 
give  you  a  large  amount  of  information  on  all  these  subjects. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  We  come  now  to  the  freight  contracts.    You  state  facts  in  regard 
to  the  contracts,  and  those  we  will  get  from  the  contracts :  "  The  dis 
tance  of  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  was  well  known  to  be  largely  in 
excess  of  the  true  distance,  and  yet  no  effort  seems  to  have  been  made 
by  the  Interior  Department  to  ascertain  the  correct  distance,  although 
its  attention  had  been  called  to  the  subject  in  1873." 
Mr.  SMITH.  The  Government  has  taken  steps  to  measure  that  dist- 
4  i  F 


50 

ance,  and  the  only  reason  that  it  has  not  been  done  is  because  the  offi 
cer  there  has  not  done  his  duty. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  will  say  that  the  Land-Office  is  engaged  in  sur 
veying-  that  country,  and  the  Interior  Department  could  have  had  that 
distance  surveyed  without  the  slightest  trouble  if  they  had  so  desired. 
The  difference  in  the  freight  in  two  weeks  would  have  paid  for  the 
survey. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  The  contract  of  McCann  for  carrying  freight  is  paid  so  much  for 
so  many  miles? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  SMITH.  It  was  fixed  by  Commissioner  Walker  himself,  andMcCann 
was  made  to  agree  that  a  final  settlement  should  be  made  upon  an 
actual  measurement  of  that  distance,  and  there  it  lies  now.  Any  state 
ment  that  the  Interior  Department  has  not  made  any  effort  to  get  at 
that  distance  is  not  true. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  do  you  establish  the  distance  there  yourself? 

A.  1  refer  you  to  the  official  survey  of  J.  W.  Hammond,  at  Chey 
enne. 

Mr  SMITH.  The  Government  is  perfectly  protected  by  contract  in 
this  matter,  as  the  agreement  with  McCanu,  by  which  he  is  paid  for 
transportation  at  so  much  per  LOO  pounds  per  mile,  and  the  final  settle 
ment  is  to  be  based  upon  the  actual  distance,  whenever  that  is  found. 

Professor  MARSH.  Dr.  C.  C.  Cox,  of  Washington,  a  special  commis 
sioner  who  went  out  there,  wrote  to  the  Secretary  about  that  flour 
matter,  but  afterward  he  speaks  of  the  agent  as  a  Christian  gentleman 
and  the  agency  as  an  Arcadia,  and  all  that. 

My  conclusion  in  regard  to  all  this  is,  that  the  great  difficulty  in  ascer 
taining  the  extent  of  these  frauds,  or  making  any  investigation,  is  largely 
due  to  the  fact  that  the  Interior  Department  has  retained  none  of  the 
original  samples  of  goods  furnished  to  the  Indians  during  the  past  fiscal 
year,  the  exception  being  flour.  The  accounts  of  Agent  Saville,  as  I  un 
derstand,  have  not  been  handed  in  to  the  Second  Auditor's  Office,  except 
for  the  first  or  second  quarter,  since  he  was  appointed.  If  they  were 
there,  you  would  then  have  the  chance  to  know  how  it  stands. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Provided  the  Second  Auditor  has  taken  them  up.  He 
lias  accounts  there  that  have  been  there  for  three  years  that  have  not 
been  taken  up  yet. 

Professor  MARSH.  Now,  those  five  special  commissioners  or  other 
officials,  appointed  and  paid  by  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  had 
personally  investigated  this  agency  before  my  visit,  and  given  that  De 
partment  information  indicating  the  bad  state  of  affairs  there.  A  por 
tion  of  the  responsibility  for  the  inferior  goods  and  supplies  purchased 
last  year  should,  perhaps,  attach  to  Messrs.  F.  II.  Smith,  W.  J.  Tur- 
ney,  and  J.  D.  Lang?  of  the  board  of  Indian  commissioners. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  NOWT,  let  me  understand  it;  they  were  the  purchasing-commit 
tee? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  purchased  from  samples  ? 

A.  Yes,  exactly  5  but  did  not  retain  the  samples,'  they  made  the  con 
tract 

Q.  Were  not  the  samples  turned  over  to  the  inspectors  *? 

A.  That  may  be. 


51 

Q.  If  the  purchasing-committee  had  samples  upon  which  they  pur 
chased,  then,  of  course,  they  turned  the  samples  over  to  the  inspector, 
who  subsequently  inspected  the  goods  as  delivered,  and  the  inspector, 
it  seems  to  me,  would  be  the  person  to  have  the  samples. 

A.  If  a  person  goes  out  to  the  agency  and  sees  frauds  that  could  be 
detected  by  the  sample,  would  he  not  naturally  go  to  the  Commis 
sioner  ?  I  believe  that  the  present  year  things  are  to  be  managed  much 
better  than  before.  Here  are  three  men  who  are  called  a  "  purchasing- 
committee,"  and  who,  with  Commissioner  Smith,  as  I  understand,  make 
these  contracts  for  supplies.  Is  that  so  ? 

Mr.  SMITH.  Yes,  sir. 

Professor  MARSH.  Now,  the  beef-contracts,  the  sugar,  coffee,  blank 
ets,  &c.,  are  made  by  those  men  on  consultation  with  the  Commissioner. 

Mr.  SMITH.  The  contracts  are  made  by  me.  The  purchasing-commit 
tee  advise  on  the  purchases. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Who  appoint  them  f 

Mr.  SMITH.  They  appoint  their  own  commissioners. 

Professor  MARSH.  Previous  to  last  year  the  old  board  had  a  report 
of  the  purchasing-committee,  which  told  who  made  the  purchases; 
and  I  took  up  their  report  of  last  year,  wishing  to  see  about  the  pur 
chases;  so,  I  sny  here,  "  made  no  report  of  their  purchases,  as  the  old 
board  had  done."  That  I  considered  culpable  negligence. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Is  there  any  law  requiring  it? 

Mr.  SMITH.  No,  there  is  not.  In  regard  to  these  commissioners,  the 
board  is  made  up  by  the  President.  They  are  appointed  and  commis 
sioned  by  him.  The  President  has  given  the  nomination  of  the  Indian 
agents  to  religious  societies;  but  he  has  never  given  the  nomination  of 
this  board  into  the  hands  of  anybody.  1  am  the  officer  to  make  the  pur 
chases.  That,  by  law,  I  do,  under  the  advice  of  the  board  of  Indian 
commissioners.  They  may  send  any  man  to  me  as  their  representative, 
and  they  generally  send  the  purchasing-committee. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Don't  you  have  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior 
with  you  f 

Mr.  SMITH.  The  Secretary  of  the  Interior  is  generally  represented 
also. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Professor  Marsh,  there  are  one  or  two  matters  I  would  like 
to  inquire  about;  that  is,  what  you  saw  out  there  that  struck  you  as 
wrong  about  the  lied  Cloud  agency  you  made  known  to  the  Depart 
ment  when  you  returned  here? 

A.  I  made  known  to  the  President  when  I  returned  here,  according 
to  my  promise.  My  promise  to  Ited  Cloud  was  to  show  the  samples  he 
gave  me  to  the  President. 

Q.  That  you  did  soon  after  your  return  ? 

A.  No.     1  got  back  in  December. 

Q.  What  time  was  it  that  you  first  presented  the  thing  to  the  Presi 
dent? 

A.  In  April. 

Q.  What  time  was  it,  then,  that  you  mentioned  it  to  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  At  the  same  time.  I  could  not  conveniently  go  to  Washington 
until  the  National  Academy  of  Science  met  in  April,  when  I  went  there, 
and  had  a  long  talk  with  the  President.  I  told  him,  as  I  havr  c  rs, 
that  I  did  not  vouch  for  these  original  samples.  What  I  meant  was, 
that  those  particular  specimens  lied  Cloud  handed  me  I  had  not 


52 

lowed  up  and  compared  with  the  supplies  hi  bulk,  but  I  saw. a  great 
many  things  myself,  outside  of  that,  which  were  much  more  important. 

Q.  All  that  you  saw  out  there  that  you  thought  was  wrong  did  you 
detail  to  the  President? 

A.  I  gave  him  the  prominent  points. 

Q.  What  I  meant  to  get  at  is,  the  time  you  went  to  Washington, 
what  you  informed  him  of,  and  then  I  understand  you  went  and  had 
a  talk  with  the  Commissioner? 

A.  I  told  the  President  much  more  than  I  did  the  Commissioner.  I 
called  on  the  latter  first. 

Q.  Did  you  have  much  talk  with  the  Commissioner? 

A.  Very  little. 

Q.  Showed  him  your  samples? 

A.  I  started  to  show  them  to  him,  but  I  thought  he  didn't  receive  my 
information  very  graciously,  so  I  stopped.  I  told  the  Commissioner 
that  I  did  not  vouch  for  those  particular  samples ;  and  when  I  showed 
him  the  sample  of  tobacco  he  said,  "  Two  years  ago  we  had  some  rotten 
tobacco  and  that  is  a  sample  of  it." 

Q.  On  the  occasion  you  went  there,  in  April  last,  and  showed  him 
these  samples,  did  you  call  his  attention  to  the  wrongs  out  there  on  the 
part  of  the  Indian  agent  specially  ? 

A.  When  1  was  there  in  1873,  at  the  time  I  was  fitting  out  an  expe 
dition,  the  Commissioner  gave  me  an  interview,  and  as  I  came  out  he 
told  me  if  I  saw  anything  wrong  to  tell  him,  and  although  I  did  not 
think  I  was  bound  to  furnish  him  these  statements,  I  thought,  as  a  mat 
ter  of  courtesy,  I  would  give  them  to  him  ;  but,  as  I  say,  I  did  not  think 
he  welcomed  this  information. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  suppose  you  give  us  the  conversation  between  yourself  and 
the  Secretary,  where  you  say  you  did  not  have  any  confidence  in  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  Well,  first  about  the  Commissioner.  I  came  there  with  the  sam 
ples;  I  mentioned  to  him  that  I  had  been  out  in  that  country  5  told  him 
about  my  visit  there ;  my  object,  &c. ;  and  then  mentioned  to  him  about 
the  samples  that  Red  Cloud  had  given  me;  that  I  thought  it  proper  to 
bring  them  to  his  notice,  and  I  showed  him  the  flour,  and  he  said,  "We 
had  some  bad  flour  a  few  years  ago ;  so  bad  that  the  ponies  wouldn't 
eat  it;  and  that  is  some  of  that  bad  flour."  Ee  said  this  right  off  as  1 
say  it  now.  Then  in  regard  to  the  tobacco,  he  said,  "  We  had  some  rot 
ten  tobacco  a  couple  of  years  ago,  and  Ked  Cloud  has  given  you  some 
of  that  tobacco."  And  so  with  the  others.  About  the  coffee,  he  looked 
at  that  and  mentioned  something  about  there  being  black  beans  in  it. 

Mr.  SMITH.  In  the  sample;  I  said  there  was  black  beans  in  the  best 
of  coffee. 

Professor  MARSH.  Oh,  no ;  he  said,  "  Red  Cloud  has  picked  out  the 
black  beans,  and  given  them  to  you;"  and  so  with  the  sugar,  he  said, 
"  That  sugar  has  been  wet,"  and  so  on.  Now"  I  had  seen  the  sugar  and 
flour  issued  there,  and  I  had  seen  there  something  about  the  tobacco ; 
and  when  he  told  me  that  was  tobacco  issued  two  years  before,  I  thought 
to  myself  there  was  no  use  in  going  on  with  the  subject;  but  I  did  go 
on  and  say  that  that  agent  was  not  a  man  to  be  intrusted  in  that  im 
portant  agency.  I  told  him  about  the  incompetence  of  the  man  ;  a  man 
unfit  to  be  placed  in  charge  of  that  most  responsible  agency  in  the  whole 
West.  Then  I  told  him  particularly  about  the  annuity  goods  being 
thrown  out  there  in  one  day  in  a  snow  storm  ;  and  then  I  spoke  about 


53 

the  beef,  &c.,  and  touched  on  the  prominent  points.  I  don't  remember 
particularly  what  I  said  about  the  beef,  but  I  remember  speaking  fully 
of  the  incompetency  of  the  agent,  and  the  issue  of  the  annuity  goods; 
but,  as  I  say,  1  was  not  encouraged,  and  did  not  want  to  go  into  the 
matter  further.  I  went  away  feeling  that  he  had  told  me  in  plain 
terms  that  Red  Cloud  had  deceived  me,  and  that  I  really  knew  nothing 
about  the  agency,  and  for  that  very  reason  I  did  not  give  him  one- 
twentieth  part  of  the  information  I  had  about  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  were  in  Washington  at  the  time  that  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted 
Tail  were  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  mention  one  other  thing  :  that  at  the  time  I  was 
talking  to  the  Commissioner  there  were  two  or  three  persons  waiting, 
and  I  felt  that  I  ought  not  to  take  up  his  time,  especially  as  my  evi 
dence  was  not  wanted. 

Q.  What  time  was  it  that  the  Indians  were  in  Washington  ? 

A.  It  was  in  May. 

Q.  You  were  there  at  the  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  about  your  interview  with  Secretary  Delano. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  went  on  there  in  May. 

Q.  On  the  occasion  you  saw  the  President  and  showed  him  your  sam 
ples,  and  saw  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  on  that  occasion  you 
did  not  see  Secretary  Delano  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not.  I  supposed  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
was  the  proper  person  to  receive  complaints  about  Indian  matters,  and 
I  went  first  of  all  to  him. 

Q.  You  saw  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  then,  in  May? 

A,  Yes,  sir.  I  will  state,  when  I  came  to  Washington  in  May  the  Sec 
retary  was  in  Ohio  on  a  vacation.  The  second  or  third  day  I  was  there 
I  called  on  the  Acting  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  I  mean  General  Cowen, 
who  wras  Acting  Secretary.  I  was  in  the  Department  several  times  and 
talked  the  matter  over  with  him,  and  my  relations  with  him  were  very 
pleasant. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Do  you  mean  that  that  covered  all  the  time;  that  he  was 
away  all  the  time  until  you  saw  him  '? 

Professor  MARSH.  Well,  I  was  there  a  few  days,  then  returned  to  New 
Haven,  and  afterward  came  back;  but  as  I  had  talked  this  matter  over 
with  the  Acting  Secretary,  General  Cowen,  and  Commissioner  Smith,  I 
did  not  know  any  reason  why  I  should  call  on  the  Secretary  especially. 
I  talked  the  matter  over  very  fully  with  General  Cowen,  who  was  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  at  the  time.  Then  I  saw  Secretary  Delano, 
who  was  pointed  out  to  me  in  one  of  the  councils.  I  am  quite  confident 
I  did  not  see  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  in  the  council,  to  know  him, 
more  than  twice  before  the  time  when  they  photographed  the  Indians. 
Bishop  Hare  came  to  me  that  day,  and  said,  u  You  have  not  called  on  the 
Secretary,  and  he  wishes  to  see  you."  I  said  I  would  go  up  if  he  wished 
to  see  me,  and  the  bishop  went  up  with  me.  Wre  called  on  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior,  and  he  was  not  in  his  office.  I  left  my  card,  and  the 
council  began  a  few  minutes  after  that.  In  that  council  the  Secretary 
came  across  the  room  and  spoke  to  me.  I  told  him  I  had  called  on  him 
with  Bishop  Hare.  After  the  council  I  went  with  Mr.  Hinman,  and 
called  the  second  time  on  the  Secretary,  he  being  out— leaving  my  card 
again.  Then,  afterward,  when  I  was  in  the  Indian  Bureau.  I  think  the 
next  day,  the  Secretary  sent  in  a  messenger,  stating  that  he  was  in  his 


54 

room  and  would  like  to  see  me,  and  then  I  went  in  and  had  a  long  talk 
with  him. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  was  in  May  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  June  5.  Then  he  asked  me  for  my  information  in  regard  to 
the  Ked  Cloud  agency;  that  was  the  first  request  I  had  from  him  for  it. 
He  asked  me  for  it  in  a  conversational  way.  I  told  him  that  when  the 
committee  was  appointed  1  understood  they  would  call  on  me  for  in 
formation,  and,  when  they  did,  1  would  give  them  specific  information 
in  regard  to  the  matter.  Then  he  asked  me  to  give  it  to  him.  I  told 
him  it  was  not  ready  ;  that  I  was  going  back  to  New  Haven,  and  when 
I  got  there,  if  he  wished  for  this  information  before  the  committee  was 
appointed,  if  he  would  write  to  me,  making  a  request  for  it,  1  would  send 
it  to  him.  He  requested  it  orally,  and,  although  I  did  not  decline,  I  did 
not  say  I  would  give  it  to  him  alone.  Then  he  made  another  request, 
and  I  gave  him  some  of  the  main  points,  stating  them  as  I  have  given 
them  to  you,  and  in  few  words,  orally.  But  I  told  him  that  it  was  a 
matter  1  must  consider,  as  I  had  not  decided  what  I  should  do.  I  told 
him  distinctly  that,  if  this  committee  was  appointed,  1  would  give  the 
committee  (as  I  had  informed  the  Commissioner)  this  specific  informa 
tion.  I  told  him  I  would  think  it  over,  and  see  him  again  before  I  left 
town.  I  called  a  second  time,  and  he  was  not  there;  but  I  told  General 
Cowen  to  tell  the  Secretary  that,  on  thinking  it  over,  I  must  keep  this 
information  myself;  that  he  already  had  essentially  the  same  informa 
tion  on  file  in  the  Department,  bearing  on  the  agency,  and  that  this  in 
formation,  having  been  obtained  by  myself,  I  had  not  decided  what  I 
should  do  with  it.  While  we  were  talking,  Secretary  Delano  returned 
to  his  office,  and  I  went  there  and  had  a  long  interview  with  him.  I 
repeated  what  I  had  said  to  General  Coweu,  and  also  I  stated  that  my 
promise  was  to  show  the  samples  to  the  President,  and  I  might  possibly 
decide  to  send  my  evidence  to  him.  I  might,  perhaps,  publish  it  sep 
arately,  and  might  possibly  wait  until  Congress  came  together  and  give 
it  to  Congress.  I  told  him  again  that  when  the  committee  was  ap 
pointed,  then  I  stood  ready  to  give  them  my  information.  That  is 
almost  the  exact  wording  of  it.  Now,  when  I  got  Mr.  Smith's  letter 
stating  that  the  committee  had  been  appointed,  and  requesting  the  in 
formation,  I  wrote  a  reply,  in  which  I  stated  that  I  would  immediately 
proceed  to  prepare  a  detailed  statement,  and  I  went  to  work  that  night 
to  get  it  ready.  That  I  have  done,  and  that  is  the  whole  story. 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  would  like  to  ask  of  Mr.  Marsh  if  it  is  not  due  to  me  to 
state  that  he  has  asked  of  me  information  freely,  and  has  always  got  it. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  information  I  have  asked,  and  got  of  you,  I 
have  written  and  thanked  you  for. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Have  you  not  got  all  you  asked  for? 

Professor  MAKSH.  You  have  given  me  freely  of  the  documents  there, 
and  I  have  copies  of  all  our  correspondence,  of  course. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Have  I  not  given  you  freely  everything  you  have  called 
on  me  for? 

Professor  MARSH.  I  think  you  have  all,  or  nearly  all;  but  there  is  a 
great  deal  I  wanted  that  I  did  not  get.  I  do  not  know  whether  you  had 
it  in  the  Department  or  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  At  any  time  when  before  Commissioner  Smith,  or  General  Cowen, 
or  Secretary  Delano,  did  you  suggest  that  in  your  statement  you  would 
be  obliged  to  charge  them  directly  with  complicity  in  these  frauds? 


55 

A.  I  do  not  think  I  did.  It  was  only  when  I  ^ot  my  evidence  to 
gether,  and  saw  its  full  bearing  that  I  thought  it  my  duty  to  state  plainly 
what  the  facts  in  my  possession  indicated.  That  I  have  tried  to  do  im 
partially  and  without  favor  to  any  one. 

Q.  Of  course  your  conclusions  are  not  so  important  to  us  as  the  facts 
on  which  you  base  them;  and  as  to  stating  to  them,  or  either  of  them, 
to  the  Secretary,  for  example,  that  you  thought  the  Commissioner  was 
implicated,  or  to  the  Commissioner  that  you  thought  the  Secretary  was- 
implicated,  that  suggestion,  as  I  understand,  you  did  not  make? 

A.  No,  sir;  of  course  I  did  not. 

Q.  If  Secretary  Delano  was  anxious,  as  he  appeared  to  be,  to  detect 
and  ferret  out  fraud,  if  that  was  really  his  purpose,  was  not  it  perfectly 
consistent  with  that  idea  for  him  to  ask  for  that  information,  that  1m 
might  join  you  in  bringing  these  men  to  justice ?  It*  he  was  honest  in 
this,  was  it  not  proper  for  him  to  seek  to  join  you  in  the  detection  of  this 
fraud,  and  might  he  not  properly  have  said,  "Do  not  make  this  charge 
against  me  in  the  newspapers,  but  give  me  a  chance  to  show  these  peo 
ple  and  the  country  that  I  am  after  these  rascals  as  much  as  you  arefr 

A.  I  simply  judged  of  the  man  as  I  met  him.  I  did  not  believe  he  was 
sincere. 

For  example  :  I  had  been  warned  not  to  hold  any  conversation  with 
the  Secretary  about  the  matters  in  dispute,  except  in  presence  of  a* 
witness  of  my  own  choosing.  For  this  reason  I  asked  Bishop  Hare  to 
go  with  me  when  I  first  called  on  the  Secretary,  and  found  him  out.  I 
asked  the  llev.  Mr.  Hinman  to  accompany  me  the  second  time,  but  the 
Secretary  was  not  in  his  office.  When  the  Secretary  sent  his  messenger 
to  me  in  the  Indian  Bureau,  June  5,  I  had  no  one  with  me,  and  hence 
went  alone.  On  entering  his  office  Secretary  Delano  introduced  General 
Eaton,  of  the  Bureau  of  Education,  and  said  that  the  General  was  there 
by  the  merest  accident,  as  he  had  expected  to  meet  me  alone.  As  he 
repeated  this  statement  three  or  four  times  during  the  conversation 
which  ensued,  it  made  me  suspect  that  General  Eaton's  presence  was 
not  purely  an  accident,  and  my  suspicion  on  this  point  has  been 
strengthened  by  subsequent  events. 

Secretary  Delano  began  the  conversation  by  saying  to  me  that  he 
was  sorry  I  did  not  know  him  better;  that  if  I  knew  him  as  well  as 
General  Eaton  did,  I  would  know  that  he  was  "  a  Christian,  a  gentle 
man,  and  not  a  thief."  I  was  surprised  at  this  opening  remark,  but  as 
he  repeated  it  several  times  subsequently,  I  supposed  it  was  a  favorite 
formula  of  his.  He  next  said  that  he  understood  that  I,  too,  was  "  a 
Christian  gentleman,"  and  therefore  he  felt  confident  that  we  had  only 
to  understand  each  other  perfectly,  and  then  we,  as  Christian  gentle 
men,  could  settle  this  little  matter  entirely  between  ourselves,  outside 
the  newspapers  and  without  any  publicity.  He  expressed  great  regret 
that  I  had  not  come  to  him  first  of  all  before  going  to  the  Presi 
dent,  and  showed  much  irritation  against  the  Postmaster  General  for 
going  with  me  to  the  President  when  I  fulfilled  my  promise  to  lied 
Cloud.  I  replied  that  it  was  only  justice  to  the  Postmaster-General 
to  say  that  he  was  in  no  way  responsible  for  my  visit  to  the 
President;  that  I  had  become  acquainted  with  the  President  while 
he  was  General  of  the  Army,  and  that  I  certainly  should  have  called  the 
next  day  and  given  him  lied  Cloud's  message  in  person,  without  the  in 
tervention  of  any  one.  Secretary  Delano  then  informed  me  that  he  had 
had  great  experience  in  public  life,  was  sixty-five  years  of  age,  and  had 
especially  devoted  himself  to  the  Indian  question,  and  therefore  that  I 
had  better  place  the  matter  entirely  in  his  hands.  That  as  a  scientific 


56 

man  I  could  know  but  little  of  Indian  matters,  and  that  I  had  probably 
been  influenced  by  the  younger  officers  of  the  Army,  who  wished  to  have 
Indian  affairs  in  their  charge.  I  replied  that  during  my  various  expe 
ditions  in  the  West,  in  the  last  six  years,  I  had  had  opportunities  to 
ascertain  a  great  deal  about  the  actual  state  of  Indian  affairs,  and  had 
seen  most  of  the  principal  tribes  between  the  Missouri  River  and  the 
Pacific  coast.  Hence  my  opinion  was  not  derived  from  Army  officers, 
but  from  observation.  1  said  that  I  saw  a  bad  state  of  affairs  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  last  November,  indicating  gross  mismanagement,  and 
that  I  had  given  information  of  this  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  as  well  as  others.  He  said  I  ought  not  to  have  made  the  matter 
public;  that  I  ought  not  to  have  interfered  in  Indian  matteis,  but 
should  stick  to  science;  that  it  was  unworthy  of  my  position  to  be 
picking  flaws  in  his  Department.  I  replied  that  I  considered  myself  the 
best  judge  of  what  it  was  proper  for  me  to  do,  and  that,  as  a  citizen,  1 
had  a  right  to  complain  of  any  abuses  which  I  saw  in  any  department ; 
that  the  question  with  me  was  not  a  personal  one;  it  was  simply  what 
Avas  the  state  of  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  agency  in  November  last;  if  he 
wished  to  ascertain  the  whole  truth  about  that  matter,  I  would  do  all  I 
could  to  aid  him.  I  began  to  state  what  I  saw  there,  when  he  stopped 
me,  and  said  he  did  not  care  to  discuss  the  details,  and  again  urged  me 
to  give  him  a  written  statement  of  all  my  information  on  the  subject. 
I  replied  that  he  had  appointed  a  commission  to  investigate  this  matter, 
and  when  they  are  ready  to  act  I  would  put  my  information  in  their 
hands.  He  then  urged  me  to  give  it  to  him,  and  I  replied  that  I  would 
consider  the  matter,  and  see  him  again.  After  this  interview  was  over, 
General  Eaton  followed  me  down  the  corridor  of  the  Department,  and 
urged  me  strongly  to  give  the  Secretary  my  information,  and  to  arrange 
the  matter  between  ourselves. 

In  my  second  interview  with  the  Secretary,  June  8th,  he  repeated 
many  of  his  former  statements,  and  urged  me  to  give  him  alone  all 
my  facts,  and  especially  to  make  nothing  public.  I  replied  that  I 
must  carefully  consider  that  matter.  He  then  turned  on  me  fiercely, 
and  remarked,  uThen  you  want  to  fight  me,  do  you  ?  If  you  do,  you  will 
regret  it."  I  replied  that  I  had  no  wish  to  do  anything  of  the  kind,  but 
only  desired  that  the  abuses  I  had  seen  should  be  stopped,  and  pre 
vented  in  future.  He  then  apologized  for  his  previous  remark,  and,  by 
flattery  and  earnest  appeals  to  me  as  a  Christian  gentleman,  urged  me 
to  tell  him  all  I  knew  about  the  matters  we  were  discussing.  His  closing 
remark  was  as  follows :  "  If  you  are  a  praying  man,  Mr.  Marsh,  as  I 
hope  you  are,  I  beg  you  will  take  home  this  one  thought  and  pray  over 
it:  whether  it  is  right  for  you  to  be  interfering  with  my  Department, 
when  you  ought  rather  to  aid  me  in  the  great  work  of  christianizing 
and  civilizing  these  300,000  wards  of  the  nation."  He  added  :  "  Keep 
away  from  the  newspaper  men,  and  all  will  be  well."  His  evident  desire 
to  keep  the  facts  from  the  public,  and  his  attempts  to  influence  me  to 
aid  him  in  this,  made  me  doubt  his  sincerity  then,  and  hence  1  did  not 
ygie  my  information  to  him  alone. 

The  point  1  make  with  him  is  this:  I  have  got  this  evidence  my 
self  independently.  You  have  had  commissioners  there,  time  and 
again,  to  look  into,  the  affairs  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  You  have  in 
formation  in  regard  to  these  frauds  in  your  Department.  You  have 
not  acted  upon  that.  The  information  is  there,  and  affairs  have  not 
been  improved.  The  very  last  information  from  Red  Cloud  agency  is 
that  the  Indians  are  suffering  from  want  of  food,  and  that,  I  claim, 
is  the  result  partly  of  fraud  and  partly  of  mismanagement;  the  agent 


57 

baing  corrupt,  directly  in  collusion  with  the  contractors,  and  the  money 
that  Congress  appropriates,  which  would  be  sufficient,  honestly  expended, 
to  keep  these  people  from  suffering,  failing-  of  its  purpose  by  fraud. 

There  is  one  statement  I  wish  to  go  on  record  :  that  this  case  I  have 
presented  here  and  explained,  when  you  come  to  examine  witnesses  in 
the  West  in  regard  to  these  ten  specific  points  which  I  make,  if  there- 
is  any  one  of  these  points  that  is  not  proven,  in  consequence  of  the 
witnesses  I  have  named  not  being  found,  or  any  other  reason,  I  ask  the 
privilege,  and  claim  it  as  a  right,  to  give  you.  additional  evidence  on 
that  point.  I  think  I  can  give  you  witnesses  enough  to  cover  every  one 
of  these  points  and  fully  prove  all  I  have  stated. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  When  we  are  through,  if  the  professor  desires  to 
look  over  the  evidence,  and  thinks  there  is  not  sufficient  on  any  par 
ticular  point,  he  can  give  it  to  us. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  G.,  Thursday,  September  9,  1875. 
Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Professor  GEORGE  W.  ATHER- 
TON. 

Professor  MARSH  appeared  before  the  commission  and  said: 

Mr.  CHAIRMAN  :  In  addition  to  what  the  commission  may  desire  to 
have  me  say  about  special  matters  relating  to  the  investigation,  I  have 
a,  short  statement  to  make  of  a  somewhat  personal  character,  which  I 
regard  as  important ;  and  I  desire  to  make  it  at  such  time  as  the  com 
mission  is  disposed  to  hear  it.  It  affects  the  commission  as  well  as 
myself,  and  I  should  prefer  to  give  it  now,  but  will  most  cheerfully  com 
ply  with  the  wishes  of  the  commission. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Certainly,  we  will  be  glad  to  hear  it. 

Professor  MARSH.  Mr.  Chairman.  Since  I  met  the  commission  in  New 
York,  and  frankly  laid  before  you  my  evidence  in  regard  to  affairs  at 
Red  Cloud  agency,  I  have  kept  perfectly  quiet,  and  published  nothing 
on  the  subject,  directly  or  indirectly,  considering  the  case  in  your  hands, 
and  awaiting  with  perfect  confidence  the  result  of  your  investigation. 

The  Interior  Department,  however,  has  not  done  this,  but  from  the 
very  first  has  kept  up  a  constant  attack  upon  me  on  account  of  the  mat 
ters  placed  in  jour  hands  to  investigate.  Not  only  has  this  Depart 
ment  printed,  for  the  instruction  of  the  commission,  a  pamphlet  which 
purports  to  give  the  history  of  my  charges,  but  it  has  also  inspired  and 
dictated  the  dispatches  and  letters  of  certain. Washington  correspond 
ents,  and  afterward  caused  them  to  be  reprinted  and  distributed  at  the 
public  expense. 

If  these  various  publications,  thus  distributed  to  the  country,  and 
placed  in  the  hands  of  the  commission,  merely  contained  arguments 
and  appeals  I  should  have  taken  no  notice  of  them;  but  I  am  prepared 
to  show  (with  a  few  minutes'  indulgence  of  the  commission)  that  each 
of  these  publications,  thus  sent  forth  from  the  Interior  Department, 
contains  gross  and  willful  falsehoods. 

The  fact  of  such  falsehood  in  documents  thus  prepared  and  circulated 
not  merely  affects  the  character  of  high  officials,  but  directly  concerns 
the  work  of  this  commission,  inasmuch  as  it  shows  the  spirit  in  which 
the  Interior  Department  and  Indian  Office  receive  information  of  Indian 
frauds,  and  the  methods  to  which  they  resorted  to  deceive  both  the 
commission  and  the  public. 

I  have  deliberately  chosen  the  word  falsehood,  as  in  this  statement 


58 

I  propose  to  call  things  by  their  right  names.  I  am  willing  to  be  con- 
demued  for  such  harsh  language  unless  I  can  clearly  show  so  many  and 
gross  misstatements  of  facts  within  the  knowledge  of  the  Interior  De 
partment  as  to  put  it  beyond  the  doubt  of  any  reasonable  man  that 
deception  was  intended.  Both  the  commission  and  the  public  have  been 
the  subjects  of  this  deception  on  the  part  of  the  Interior  Department ; 
and  many  of  the  falsehoods  of  which  I  complain  have  been  brought 
to  the  attention  of  the  Commission  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior 
himself. 

To  come  to  the  publications  of  which  I  complain  :  If  the  commission 
will  allow  me,  I  will  first,  however,  refer  back  to  the  dispatch  dictated 
by  Commissioner  Smith  to  the  agent  of  the  Associated  Press  last  May, 
about  beef-cattle  at  Bed  Cloud  agency,  arid  which  I  quote  in  my  published 
statement,  (p.  22.)  This  dispatch,  as  I  show,  contains  four  separate 
falsehoods,  and  its  object  was  to  destroy  the  effect  on  the  public  of  Gen 
eral  Bradley's  certificate.  Another  equally  characteristic  dispatch  of 
the  Acting  Commissioner,  in  regard  to  flour,  I  quote  on  page  33  of 
my  statement.  This  dispatch  contains  two  distinct  false  statements 
as  the  evidence  now  in  your  possession  from  Maj.  A.  K.  Long  and 
others  clearly  shows,  viz,  that  all  the  flour  sent  to  Eed  Cloud  agency 
was  not  inspected  by  Major  Long;  and,  secondly,  that  part  of  the 
flour  he  rejected  was  afterward  sent  there.  The  latter  dispatch  was 
published  as  a  reply  to  my  first  presentation  of  the  subject  to  the  Presi 
dent,  and  is  a  fair  sample  of  all  the  attempts  at  defense  that  have  since 
been  issued  by  the  Department,  whether  over  the  signature  of  the  Sec 
retary  of  the  Interior  or  through  some  facile  tool. 

The  documents  issued  by  the  Interior  Department  since  the  commis 
sion  began  its  labors  have  been  so  numerous  that  I  can  only  refer  to  a 
few  of  them;  and  out  of  deference  to  the  high  position  of  its  acknowl 
edged  author,  I  will  first  take  up  the  official  pamphlet,  "printed  for 
the  use  of  the  investigating  committee,"  and  with  which  you  are  all,  of 
course,  familiar.  A  very  small  portion  of  this  pamphlet  relates  to  the 
present  investigation,  and  this  part  alone  I  now  propose  to  discuss.  In 
this  portion,  addressed  especially  to  the  commission,  there  is  hardly  a 
sentence  that  does  not  contain  a  misrepresentation,  and  in  one  of  the 
letters  from  Secretary  Delano  himself  to  the  commission,  for  your  instruc 
tion,  there  are  at  least  three  distinct  falsehoods  on  a  single  page. 

Among  the  more  important  false  statements  in  this  official  pamphlet 
are  the  following : 

I.  That  I  was  not  the  author  of  my  charges,  but  that  they  were  writ-  • 
ten  or  directly  inspired  in  the  New  York  Tribune  office. 

This  statement,  which  is  reiterated  in  various  forms  and  in  different 
parts  of  the  pamphlet,  and  other  documents  to  which  I  shall  refer,  I 
pronounce  absolutely  false.  My  statement  was  written  by  myself  alone, 
in  New  Haven,  and  there  printed.  No  person  connected  with  the 
Tribune  or  any  other  paper  even  saw  it  until  it  was  in  print. 

II.  That  my  statement  was  published  in  the  Tribune  before  being 
sent  to  the  President.     (Pamphlet,  p.  6.) 

This  assertion,  also,  is  wholly  false.  My  statement  was  finished  July 
10,  and  it  was  my  intention  to  have  taken  it  to  the  President  on  that 
day,  but  having  ascertained  that  he  was  absent  at  Cape  May,  I  awaited 
his  return  until  the  13th,  and  then  started  to  present  it  in  person,  but 
uncertain  whether  he  had  really  returned,  I  mailed  it  to  him  from  New 
York,  so  as  to  reach  Long  Branch  that  afternoon.  Subsequently,  but 
the  same  day,  I  gave  copies  of  the  pamphlet  at  the  same  time  to  the 
only  two  New  York  papers  that  had  asked  for  it,  namely,  the  Tribune 


59 

and  Evening  Post ;  but  no  part  of  the  document  was  published  by  either 
of  these  papers  until  next  day.  Having  ascertained  definitely  on  the 
14th  that  the  President  had  returned  to  Long  Branch,  I  went  there  and 
called  on  him  the  same  evening,  to  explain  to  him  my  statement  more 
fully,  and  to  state  why  I  had  not  brought  it  in  person.  I  would  say  here 
that  in  none  of  the  three  interviews  which  I  have  had  with  the  Presi 
dent  on  Indian  affairs  has  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  been  mentioned. 
Hence,  the  statement  that  the  President  told  me  to  go  to  Secretary 
Delano  with  my  complaints  is  totally  false. 

III.  That  I  did  not  make  my  first  complaint  to  the  Interior  Depart 
ment. 

This  statement,  so  often  repeated  by  the  Department,  is  false.  I 
went  first  of  all  to  the  Interior  Department  on  the  23d  of  April,  and 
made  complaint  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  whom  1  then 
regarded,  and  still  regard,  as  the  proper  person  to  receive  such  informa 
tion.  How  unwelcome  the  facts  I  presented  were,  and  how  uncivilly 
received,  I  have  already  stated  before  the  commission.  My  promise  to 
lied  Cloud  to  carry  his  message  to  the  Great  Father,  I  fulfilled  the  next 
day  ;  and  my  reception  by  the  President  was  in  marked  contrast  to  that 
given  me  at  the  Department,  to  which  I  had  gone  as  a  matter  of  court 
esy  only. 

When  I  was  next  in  Washington,  in  May  last,  I  again  called  on  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  also  upon  the  Acting  Secretary  of 
the  Interior,  General  Cowen,  the  honorable  Secretary  himself  being  in 
Ohio.  During  his  absence,  I  saw  General  Cowen  several  times  about 
Indian  matters.  He  treated  me  courteously,  and  invited  me  to  attend 
the  councils  with  the  Sioux  delegations,  then  in  Washington,  and  on 
one  occasion,  when  a  conference  was  held  without  public  notice,  he  took 
especial  pains  to  send  me  his  written  invitation.  Hence,  the  statement 
in  this  official  pamphlet  (p.  5)  that  I  went  uninvited  is  untrue. 

IV.  The  statement  in  Secretary  Delano's  letter  to  the  Commissioner 
(p.  7)  that  I  declined  his  personal  request  to  furnish  statements  of  my 
charges. 

This  is  as  false  as  his  previous  statements,  and  it  is  at  once  disproved 
by  his  own  witness,  General  Eaton,  who,  in  speaking  of  me  in  his  ac 
count  of  my  interview  with  Secretary  Delano,  says:  "  He  said  that  he 
had  not  put  them  in  shape,  but  would  do  it,"-  (p.  7.)  Commissioner 
Smith  also  refutes  this  falsehood  of  the  Secretary ;  for  he  says,  on  the 
same  subject,  "To  this  request  Professor  Marsh  has  not  yet  responded, 
nor  has  he  declined  it,"  (p.  19.) 

Secretary  Delano  knows  perfectly  well  that  I  told  him  several  times 
during  our  interviews  that  whenever  the  commission  of  investigation 
was  ready  to  act,  I  would  lay  before  them  a  statement  embodying  my 
specific  charges,  arid  this,  gentlemen  of  the  commission,  you  know  I  did 
at  the  first  hour  of  your  organization. 

V.  The  statement  (pamphlet,  p.  8)  that  I  have  made  no  communica 
tion  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  in  reply  to  his  letter  of  July 
1,  (p.  9,)  requesting  a  statement  of  specific  charges  with  evidence. 

This  is  a  willful  falsehood.  My  reply,  given  on  page  11  of  my  state 
ment,  was  written  July  3,  and  I  mailed  it  myself.  Moreover,  following 
the  example  of  Secretary  Delano  and  Commissioner  Smith,  in  their  com 
munications  concerning  myself,  I  gave  the  letter  to  the  Associated  Press 
and  American  Press  Associations  for  publication,  and  it  appeared 
promptly  in  all  the  prominent  papers.  I  likewise  transmitted  this  letter 
in  my  statement  to  both  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  that  the  former  duly  received  it  is  admitted 


GO 

by  liim  in  his  letter  to  you  of  July  20,  (p.  7,)  which  was  written  two 
weeks  before  tbe  pamphlet  containing  this  falsehood  was  printed.  More 
over,  the  same  document  was  transmitted  to  him  by  the  President, 
July  15. 

VI.  The  statement  of  the  Secretary,  in  Ins  letter  to  yon  of  July  20, 
(p.  8,)  that  his  entire  intercourse  with  me  was  the  brief  conversation  in 
the  Indian  council,  and  the  interview  at  which  General  Eaton  was  pres 
ent,  is  not  only  untrue,  but  does  me  great  injustice. 

I  called  on  the  Secretary,  with  Bishop  Hare,  June  4,  before  the  coun 
cil,  and,  the  Secretary  being  absent,  left  my  card.  This  fact  I  stated  to 
him  in  the  council  when  he  addressed  me.  Moreover,  on  June  8,  three 
days  after  the  interview  at  which  General  Eaton  was  present,  I  had 
another  long  and  important  interview  writh  Secretary  Delano,  which,  for 
some  reason,  he  now  ignores.  Before  this  last  interview  I  had  already 
called,  and  finding  him  out,  had  left  an  important  message  for  him  with 
General  Co  wen. 

In  this  official  pamphlet  there  are  many  other  false  statements  which 
I  have  marked,  which  I  will  not  now  weary  you  with  quoting  in  detail. 
There  is  one  statement,  however,  on  page  0,  that  I  cannot  pass  over, 
namely  :  that  reflecting  on  the  sources  of  the  information  on  which  my 
charges  are  based.  In  reply  to  this,  I  have  only  to  say  that  you  gen 
tlemen  are  the  best  judges  of  the  character  and  disinterestedness  of  the 
witnesses  whose  names  I  have  given  you  to  substantiate  my  own 
observations. 

The  next  document  to  which  I  will  call  your  attention  is  important  as 
being  one  of  a  series,  to  the  continued  and  wide  distribution  of  which 
the  machinery  of  the  Interior  Department  has  been  directed  since  the 
case  was  placed  in  your  hands.  I  suppose  they  have  been  duly  transmit 
ted  to  the  commission.  However  this  may  be,  they  have  been  sent  to 
nearly  all  the  papers  of  the  country,  religious  and  secular.  The  false 
statements  to  which  I  have  already  called  your  attention  in  the  official 
pamphlet  are  here  repeated  with  many  variations,  but  evidently  pro 
ceeding  from  a  common  source. 

This  particular  document,  which  may  be  taken  as  a  fair  sample  of  this 
series  as  to  truthfulness,  I  have  good  reason  to  believe  was  prepared  in 
the  Interior  Department.  It  was  first  published  in  the  Inter-Ocean,  of 
Chicago,  July  27,  and  republished  in  the  Washington  Chronicle,  July 
31.  It  was  then  reprinted  in  separate  form  from  the  Chronicle  type, 
and  distributed  by  the  Department  at  public  expense. 

The  only  point  in  this  document  that  I  care  now  to  mention  is  a  false 
charge  of  breach  of  confidence,  when  I  was  invited  to  appear  before  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  in  New  York.  My  invitation,  Avhich  I 
retain,  came  from  General  Fisk,  the  chairman,  to  meet  the  board  April 
28.  It  contained  no  intimation  that  the  meeting  was  to  be  a  private 
one,  and  I  had  no  reason  to  believe  that  such  was  intended.  I  invited 
a  Harvard  professor,  interested  in  the  subject,  to  accompany  me,  but 
as  he  could  not  join  me,  I  took  with  me  another  friend,  whom  I  met  at 
the  hotel  on  my  way  to  the  meeting,  and  who  is  the  scientific  editor  of 
the  Tribune.  He  is  not  a  short-hand  reporter,  and  took  no  notes  of  the 
meeting  whatever,  supposing  that  the  board  would  publish  an  account 
the  next  day,  as  it  had  done  of  other  meetings.  Seeing  no  report  in  the 
next  day's  papers,  and  thinking  my  remarks  of  sufficient  importance,  he 
made  an  abstract  from  memory,  and  they  appeared  in  the  Tribune  of 
April  30.  No  objection,  whatever,  was  made  at  the  time  to  the  admis 
sion  of  my  friend,  and  those  given  in  the  document  from  which  I  now 
quote  are  wholly  imaginary.  The  chairman  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com- 


61 

missioners,  General  Fisk,  lias  since  informed  me  that  there  was  no  ob 
jection  to  the  publication  of  this  report,  and  its  truthfulness  has  not 
been  questioned. 

The  only  other  one  of  these  semi-official  publications  which  I  will  now 
notice  is  a  letter  which  appeared  in  the  Providence  Journal,  July  16, 
and  soon  after  was  republished  and  widely  circulated  through  the  same 
channels  as  the  documents  I  have  already  mentioned.  This  evidently 
was  written  by  a  friend  of  Commissioner  Smith,  in  his  behalf,  and  a 
copy  of  the  reprint,  which  I  now  exhibit,  was  sent  to  me,  with  insulting 
annotations  by  a  Government  official  in  Washington,  whose  identity 
is  fully  established.  In  this  document  Commissioner  Smith's  friend 
endeavors  to  pay  him  a  high  compliment,  and  to  disparage  me,  by  a  fic 
titious  description  of  the  Commissioner  at  a  certain  meeting  "of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  in  New  York.  The  truthfulness  of  this 
document  may  be  judged  from  the  fact  that  on  the  occasion  named 
Commissioner  Smith  was  not  present,  so  that  the  scene  described  was 
simply  a  figment  of  the  writer's  imagination.  Nevertheless,  the  Interior 
Department  deemed  such  statements  of  sufficient  importance  to  reprint, 
and  widely  distributed  them. 

In  conclusion,  the  question  naturally  arises,  What  is  the  object  of  all 
these  publications?  Most  certainly  to  mislead  you  and  the  public,  and 
influence  both  against  me  for  having  made  known  matters  unfavorable 
to  the  Indian  service.  The  Interior  Department  and  Indian  Bureau 
have  pursued  a  similar  course  from  the  time  I  first  complained  of  mis 
management  in  Indian  affairs.  It  is  carrying  out  the  policy,  long  con 
tinued,  of  meeting  evidence  against  that  Department  by  misrepresen 
tation  and  falsehood.  Compared  with  these,  discourtesy  and  incivility 
are  such  small  matters  that  I  have  forborne  to  trouble  the  commission 
with  the  details  of  what  I  was  subjected  to  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Inte 
rior  and  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  but  justice  to  all  concerned 
demands  that  I  at  least  say  to  you  that  long  before  my  statement  was 
presented,  when  I  was  endeavoring  to  ascertain  the  true  state  of  Indian 
affairs,  I  was  repeatedly  treated  with  indignity  by  both  these  officials 
in  their  own  offices. 

Is  it  strange  that  under  the  circumstances  I  should  doubt  the  sin 
cerity  of  Secretary  Delano  and  Commissioner  Smith,  when  they  pub 
licly  announce,  as  is  done  in  the  Commissioner's  letter  to  me,  "That  it 
is  the  sincere  wish  and  purpose  of  the  Department  to  prevent  frauds  as 
far  as  possible,  and  to  omit  no  effort  to  discover  them,  when  perpe 
trated  !"  I  think  the  result  fully  justifies  me  in  so  doing.  If  not,  I 
desire  to  call  the  attention  of  the  commission  to  evidence  showing  the 
suppression  of  previous  information  condemnatory  of  affairs  at  the 
Sioux  agencies.  The  reports  made  by  Messrs.  Hosmer,  Bevier,  Alvord, 
and  others  are  on  file  in  the  Department,  and  I  trust  the  commission 
will  obtain  them,  and  also  call  these  gentlemen  before  them,  and  elicit 
from  them  the  additional  information  Avhich  they  gave  orally  to  the  In 
terior  Department,  and  of  which  no  record  remains. 

There  is  abundant  evidence  from  these  sources  showing  the  knowl 
edge  of  this  Department  of  mismanagement  and  fraud  in  the  past  at  the 
lied  Cloud  agency.  Whether  the  mismanagement  and  fraud  still  exist, 
the  Commission  can  best  decide. 


62 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  Monday,  September  13,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  0.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Processor  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULK 
NER. 

Mr.  J.  W.  BOSLER  was  also  present. 

Professor  MARSH  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  There  are  some  things  about  which  I  desire  to  inquire 
of  you,  Professor  Marsh.  On  the  first  page  of  your  letter  to  the  Presi 
dent  you  state,  "  1st.  I  have  no  confidence  whatever  in  the  sincerity 
of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  or  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
when  they  publicly  announce  their  wish  and  determination  to  correct 
the  present  abuses  in  Indian  management,  because  I  have  reason  to 
know  that  they  have  long  been  aware  of  these  abuses,  and  have  made 
no  sincere  effort  to  reform  them."  Now,  do  you  mean  by  that  to  charge 
.them  with  neglect  of  duty  in  their  official  stations? 

Answrer.  What  I  regard  as  neglect  of  duty. 

Q.  Now,  next  you  say,  "2d.  In  all  my  intercourse  with  these  two  offi 
cials  their  object  has  manifestly  been  to  find  out,  not  so  much  what  the 
frauds  actually  were,  as  the  extent  of  my  information  concerning  them, 
so  as  to  prevent,  by  every  means  in  their  power,  all  publicity  or  exposure 
of  them.'7  Now,  do  you  mean  by  that  to  charge  them  with  complicity  in 
these  frauds,  or  a  desire  to  cover  them  up,  so  as  to  prevent  blame  attach 
ing  to  them,  for  neglect  of  duty  f 

A.  I  state  in  that  sentence  as  clearly  as  I  am  able  to  put  it  the  results 
of  my  intercourse  with  the  two  officials  named. 

Q.  But  when  you  say  that  their  object  seemed  to  be  to  prevent,  by 
every  means  in  their  power,  all  publicity  or  exposure  of  these  frauds, 
you  mean  that  their  object  was  to  do  that  for  what  purpose  ? 

A.  I  do  not  allude  to  the  motives,  I  state  the  fact. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  only  to  charge  that  it  was  their  object  to  prevent 
publicity  of  these  charges  of  fraud  in  the  Indian  management  ? 

A.  That  was  clearly  one  object.  Whether  there  was  anything  else 
that  was  manifested  I  cannot  say. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  imply,  or  did  you  intend  to  imply,  that  they  were 
governed  by  corrupt  motives? 

A.  That  is  a  difficult  question  to  answer.  I  said  nothing  in  that  sen 
tence  that  touches  that  point.  I  mention  a  fact,  the  result  of  my  expe 
rience  with  those  officials. 

Q.  I  only  want  to  get  at  your  own  opinion  of  the  effect  of  the  lan 
guage.  Do  you  not  think  that  that  sentence  just  read  by  the  chairman 
would  conveV  to  the  mind  of  the  person  reading  it  the  idea  that  those 
officials  were  themselves  engaged  or  were  participants  in  fraud  which 
they  wished  to  conceal,  and  if  you  do, think  so,  will  you  say  whether 
you  really  intended  to  convey  that  idea  or  something  less  criminal? 

A.  My  object  in  writing  that  sentence  as  it  is  was  to  give  a  reason 
clearly  for  not  putting  my  information  in  the  hands  of  the  Department 
alone,  and  I  think  the  reason  is  clearly  given  in  the  language  stated. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  You  say  you  have  every  reason  to  know? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  No ;  he  says  previously  that  their  object  was  not  so 
much  to  learn  what  the  frauds  actually  were,  as  to  learn  the  extent  of 
his  information  concerning  them,  with  a  viewr  to  prevent  their  publicity. 


63 

Xow,  (to  Professor  Marsh,)  1  have  been  at  a  loss  to  know  whether  you 
mean  by  that  that  they  were  trying,  from  corrupt  motives,  to  cover  up 
these  frauds— to  hide  them  from  the  public— or  whether  they  were  try 
ing  to  prevent  the  public  learning  of  them,  with  a  view  to  maintain  their 
reputation  before  the  public  for  men  of  capacity  in  the  management 
of  business,  or  what.  What  was  designed  by  it  has  been  the  difficulty 
in  my  mind ;  hence  it  was  that,  in  a  card  which  I  had  occasion  to  write, 
I  used  the  term  "insinuation,"  about  which  there  has  been  a  good  deal 
said  since.  It  does  not  convey  to  my  mind  clearly  a  charge. 
WITNESS.  It  states  a  fact. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Well,  it  states  that  they  were  desirous  of  learning  from  you  what 
you  knew  about  it.  Then  you  say  that  their  object  in  getting  that  infor 
mation  was  not  to  investigate  the  frauds  or  expose  them,  but  to  cover 
them  up.  Now,  what  motive  did  you  mean  to  attribute  to  them  for  pre 
venting  publicity  of  those  matters'? 

A.  I  wish  to  answer  that  question  with  perfect  frankness.  I  have 
stated  here  exactly  what  conclusion  I  derived  from  my  intercourse  with 
those  two  officials — that  they  were  desirous  to  find  out  exactly  how  much 
I  knew,  and  to  avoid  publicity.  Those  were  the  two  things  that  im 
pressed  themselves  on  my  mind  as  the  object  of  both  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior  and  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  their  object  in  trying  to  prevent  publicity  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  absolutely  what  their  object  was. 

Q.  Whether  their  object  was  to  cover  up  the  fraud,  or,  by  preventing 
publicity,  the  better  to  ferret  it  out  and  punish  it,  you  could  not  say  "I 

A.  I  do  not  quite  understand  you. 

Q.  You  are  not  able  to  say  whether  their  object  in  trying  to  prevent 
publicity  of  the  matter  was  to  be  the  better  able  to  ferret  out  and  punish 
the  fraud  or  cover  it  up  ? 

A.  I  give  no  intimation  of  that  here  one  way  or  the  other. 

Q.  I  was  at  a  loss  to  know  whether  you  intended  by  that  to  charge 
them  with  a  purpose  to  cover  up  and  conceal  these  frauds  which  you 
allege  existed  there,  or  what  you  did  mean  exactly  by  that. 

A.  That  they  wished  to  cover  them  up  for  the  time  being  I  inferred 
from  my  intercourse  with  them.  Whether  their  object  was  to  cover  up 
something  that  they  wished  to  keep  from  the  public  for  some  particular 
.reason,  1  did  not  say;  or  whether  they  wished  to  eventually  avoid  the 
publicity  of  having  mismanagement  made  apparent  in  the  Department, 
I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  mean,  positively,  to  charge  a  bad  motive  on  them 
in  that  sentence — a  corrupt  motive  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  at  this  moment  just  how  it  lay  in  my  mind 
when  I  wrote  that.  The  prominent  points  in  my  mind  were  the  two 
facts:  first,  their  effort  to  find  out  just  how  much  I  knew;  second,  to 
avoid  the  publicity  of  it.  Those  two  were  the  points  that  impressed  them 
selves  on  my  mind.  Their  motives  for  that  I  did  not  go  into. 

Q.  You  did  not  attribute  any  bad  motive  to  them  in  trying  to  find  out 
all  you  knew  about  the  frauds? 

A.  Motives  are  difficult  things  to  discuss,  of  course. 

Q.  You  did  not  mean  by  this  to  charge  them  with  any  corrupt  mo 
tives  in  trying  to  get  from  you  the  information  you  had  about  those 
matters  f 

A.  The  conclusion  I  derived  from  my  intercourse  with  these  two  gen- 


Million  was,  (linl.   Mii'.v  wore  very  desirous   |,o   have  im 
Minn  alono,  nil  ol  my  information  on  (In-  snhjoel. 

<»>.  I  want  to  ank  you,  was  their  object  manifestly  to  find  out  nob  BO 
union  what  the  frauds  netuaily  wore,  as  Mm  extent  ol  yom  information 
concerning  them  /  Now,  was  there  anything  improper  in  ihon  ni>uin* 
iiitf  from  you  .ill  i  ho  i  MI.. i  m., 1 1011  yon  had  concerning  them  ? 

A.   Not  in  itself. 

<k>.  Then  you  did  nol  moan  looliai!/o  Ihom  \\ilJi  any  impropi  iol  y  of 
condnol  in  ohlaiiiin;'  IVnin  \n\\  all  I!..-  iiilorin.il  ion  you  h  ,,|  m  iHoroiieo 
lot  heso  in . 1 1 1 oi'N  ? 

A.    Nol   Hi.-  leiisl. 

Q,  Then  your  Conclusion  ill  relereneo  In  Ih.il  uso  as  lo  |»rrvriil  hy 
OVri'y  inrsiiiN  111  Ihcii  |Hi\vrr  nil  |Hihlicily  or  rxposnn^  of  tlliMli,"  is  nol  ii 
(MinclilMion  JIM  lo  \vli.i!  Ilinr  ohjrcl  NVJI'M,  lull  \VMS  :i  Hivsc.ripl  ion  of  I  !.«• 
niiliiiH-r  in  xvhirh  Iliry  \v;inh<<l  I  o  HsiHM'l  ilin  all  Ilio  lacfs  tilid  ^rt  your 
iiiioiin.il  ion  I' 

A.  I  will  Nhilr  IranKly,  ;MMI!  IIMIHMI,  Dial,  I  roin-lniliMl  l.lioy  urn*  mix- 
ions  lo  (M)vcr  ii|»  Ilirsr  Iliinys,  niMior  Minn  h)  corircl  Mu^  nh'nsrs. 

(,k).  And  Mial,  is  xvlnii  yon  moan  hy  Miis  HtahMiHMil,,  "HO  jm  to  plvvonl, 
!»;»  rvriy  incmis  in  Mirir  pouor,  all  pnhlicily  or  oxpoMumof  MIIMII  ?'' 

A.  I  don'l,  say  \vhy  Ilial  \\-MN.  Thill  \Vii.s  MM^  nnpnvssion  I  dcnyrd 
IVoin  my  inhM'ronrHr  \\illi  Mioso  olliriiils. 

<,>.  I  \VJIN  linking  ju&t  Wllttt  .von  me. ml  h\  jlns  Imiyiiu^*  ;  \\lial  yon 
denigtUUl  h>  con\(^y  \»  our  iiiinds  hy  il. 

A-  I  MmiU  il  is  a,  vrry  Hrar  sonhMirr,  and  I  r\|>hiin  i!  I  his  \va\ ,  as 
i  tmveJUHl  Nlalrd  :  il  slinrU  me  M...I  ||.o  jinxirl.v  hi  ayoid  pnhlii»i|y  WJIM 
Ilio  inon*  proininrnl  Iriilnro  in  llns  inln conrsr Mian  n .  <ii\siro  to  IlstMM 
t-liill  jilNl  \\  hal  Mir  Irmids  \\«M-O.  Thai  IN  my  opinion,  dolilHM'iitoly  rortiUMl 
in  pulling  hi^«»MH»r  all  ol  Ilio  Interviown  niul  hilUs  I  had  in  \arious 
WH(>M.  I  do  nol  \\ish  lo  ;-o  lir^oiul  I  hal,  lint-  Dial  is  I  h<>  inipmsHion  h'H 
(ill  iny  mind  MM  Mir  rrsnll.  of  Ihoso  dilloronl  inlorv io\vs. 

<k>.  Thru  \on  moan  lo  sa>  il  \vas  inanilosl  lo  your  mind  Mint  Ihry 
wnilh'd  lo  ^H.  all  Iho  inlormahon  \on  had  lor  Mio '|inrpo,si<  ol  Keeping  it 
hoin  (In-  pnhlio  and  co\rr  il  tip  ? 

A.   Thai  IN  nol  <|inlo  \vhai  I  said,  or,  al  Iras!,  what   I  moanl    h»  impl\. 

<k>.  Von  .slah^  il  \\JIN  MUMT  ohjool ,  iiuuiiloNl  l\ ,  ^  lo  lind  on! ,  not  so  niiirli 
wlinl  Mio  Irmid.s  aolnall.y  \vno  as  Mio  O\|<MI|  ol  m.v  inlonnnl ion  con 
ccrnin^  MUMII,  NO  UN  to  pirvonl,  l»\  O\«M  y  IIIOMIIN  in  Mioir  po\\tM\  nil  pnh 
licily  or  exposure  of  MHMII."  Tlion  \on  moan  lo  say  il  was  manifest  to 
\om  mind  lhal  Ihoy  >vrro  donirotlg  of  getting  all  ih<^  inlorinnt  ion  yon 
itud  lor  Mio  pnrpo.xo  of  oo\  oriii;',  np  Iho  hands  and  proxonl  Ihom  hooom- 
iii".  1'iil'lu  ' 

A.    Not    tKMMVsMnnly    lo   ooyor    MMMII    np  ontirHy,   lor   a    had    purpose. 

IVrhnps  nno  or  hot  hot'  the  gentlemen  may  have  wished  lo  corrcri  these 
nluiNCN  mid  thought,  possihly  it  coulil  be  uone  better  by  avoiding  puh 
liclty,  llni  tlio  prominent  tiling  in  MU»N«»  intiM'\i(»ws  wn»  tlu»  wisli  to 
nvoid  jnihlicity,  rnthor  than  lo  tind  out  \\hnt  (lu^  Irmids  wore,  '.rinit.  is 
\\lint  strneU  mo,  UN  I  roiuoinbei'  tho  ditlorcut  interviews,  as  a  whole; 
thiil  wns  my  conclusion  as  the  result,  ol  nil  my  interviews  \\iih  Miein. 

l'»v  Mr.  ATI  IKK  TON  : 

(A),  Tlmt  innguuge  which  han  been   quoted,  does  it  or  does  il  not  nal 
urnlly  convey  nn  imnlioAtioti  of  some  unworthy  motive  f 

A,  I  don't  think  it  does  lUM'essnrily ;  it  is  plnin  Inngunge,  mul  (he 
proiniiient  points  I  wished  t-o  bring  out.  were  tho  i\\o  I  mentioned. 

<v>.   \\  lint  my  ipu«s(ioii  wns  intended  to  reach  was  the  nntnrnl  implica- 


tioii  convoyed  by  the  language  to  the  mind  of  any  reader;  and  so  I  asked 
the.  question,  Does  it.  or  does  it.  not.  naturally  convey  an  implication  to  any 
reader  of  some  unworthy  motive?  Now,  was  that  language  intended  to 
convoy  an  implication  of  an  unworthy  motive  of  any  kind  ?  I  under 
stand  your  Interpretation  of  it  to  be,  that  it  does  not  necessarily  convoy 
such  an  implication;  and  now,  I  wish  to  know  whether  it  was  intended 
to  convey  such  an  implication. 

A.  I  thhlk  that,  to  a  slight  degree,  is  implied  in  the  two  points  which 
I  bring  out  prominently  there. 

Q.  That  it  was  intended  to  convey  that  ? 

A.  I  do  not  wish  to  bo  misunderstood.  That  is  a  subtle  question,  in 
volving  the  exact  moaning  of  words. 

Q.  1  understand  you,  then,  to  modify  the  previous  answer  to  that 
question.  Your  previous  answer  was  that  the  language  does  not  neces 
sarily  convey  such  an  implication.  Now  I  understand  you  to  say  that 
it  does  to  some  extent  convoy  that  Implication. 

A.  I  will  say  by  way  of  explanation  that.  1  do  not  wish  to  bo  under 
stood  as  stating  two  things  diametrically  opposite. 

<A>.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  it  does  not  necessarily  convoy  such 
an  implication,  and  t  hen  that  it  docs  convoy  such  an  implication.  The 
point  of  my  inquiry  is,  What,  is  implied  in  the  form  of  the  statement, 
that  you  have  deliberately  adopted  If 

A.  1  think  the  interpretation  of  the  sentence  would  possibly  bo  dif 
ferent  to  different  minds;  but  the  main  point  I  wished  to  state  in  the 
sentence  was  the  two  facts  which  1  have  mentioned, 

(J>.  Yes,  I  understand;  but  that  does  not  seem  to  cover  the  question. 
Tins  first  question  was,  Does  it  convey  naturally  the  Implication  of 
some  unworthy  motive?  I  understand  you  answered,  with  some  modifi 
cations,  that  it  does  not  convey  such  an  implication  ;  but  subsequently 
you  said  that  that,  to  some  extent,  is  conveyed  or  involved  in  the 
language.  Now,  my  question  is,  Is  il;  intended  to  convoy  the  implica 
tion  which  you  say  is  to  some  extent  involved  in  if?  That  would  bo 
simply  the  Interpretation  from  your  own  point,  of  view,  what  precise 
thought,  you  intended  it  to  bo  understood  to  mean. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a  question  of  phraseology  somewhat. 

Q.  Not  as  I  have,  put  it  now.  The  former  question  was  a  question  of 
phraseology;  but  the  question  now  is  simply,  what  was  your  intention 
in  using  that  phraseology;  whether  you  intended  to  convey  the  implica 
tion  which  you  say  it  does  convoy — the  intent  of  some  unworthy 
motive  1 

A.  Ho  far  as  concerns  the  slight  implication  that  may  bo  contained  iu 
the  language  just  as  it  is,  I  think  I  meant  to  convoy  it. 

P»y  Mr.   II ARRIS  : 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  you  do  not  mean  to  have,  it  understood 
exactly  that  you  mean  'by  the  use  of  the  language  to  charge  that  the 
motives  for  concealing  it  wore  corrupt  or  unworthy  ? 

A.   Not  necessarily. 

(J.  Although  you 'think  it  is  implied  to  some  extent  in  the  language? 

A.  To  a  slight  extent. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  now,  wo  will  go  on.  You  say,  "3d,  the  evidence  now  in  my 
possession  reflects  unfavorably  on  both  Secretary  Delano  and  Coimnis- 
sioncr  Smith  '?" 

A.  That  language  cannot  well  bo  clearer. 

Q.  1  want  to  inquire,  when  you  say  the  evidence  in  your  possession 


66 

reflects  unfavorably  upon  them,  whether  you  meant  the  evidence  which 
you  had  in  your  possession  reflected  unfavorably  upon  their  integrity 
in  the  management  of  their  business,  or  their  want  of  capacity  for  the 
management  of  it,  or  their  want  of  diligence  in  the  management  of  it? 

A.  Certainly  their  want  of  capacity  ;  certainly  their  want  of  dili 
gence. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  mean  by  it  "? 

A.  Yes;  beyond  that  the  language  does  not  necessarily  go. 

Q.  The  statinent  is  very  general  ? 

A.  It  is  a  very  mild  term  —  "  reflects  unfavorably." 

Q.  Now,  Professor,  there  are  some  other  little  matters  you  can  an 
swer  just  in  a  word,  yes  or  no,  and  it  will  take  but  a  moment  to  set 
us  right  upon  them  ? 

A.  I  ought  to  add  to  that  last  answer,  to  be  perfectly  frank,  that  I 
think  it  goes  beyond  the  extent  to  which  I  have  stated  above.  It  goes 
beyond  these  two  things  ;  how  far  I  don't  say  at  all. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  pertinent  question  would  seem  to  be,  Did  you  intend  to  go 
farther  than  that  by  the  language? 
A.  I  think  I  did  to  a  certain  degree  beyond  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 
Q.  You  state  in  the  £rst  specification  of  these  charges  : 

I.  —  The  Indian  agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency. 

In  the  first  conversation  I  had  with  Red  Cloud,  when  Gen.  L.  P.  Bradley  and  Col 
T.  H.  Stanton  were  present,  he  complained  bitterly  of  his  agent,  J.  J.  Saville,  who  for 
the  past  two  years  has  had  charge  of  his  agency.  Red  Cloud's  specified  charges  were 
that  his  agent  was  incompetent,  weak,  and  vacillating,  having  no  influence  over  the 
Indians;  and  especially  that  he  was  in  league  with  the  contractors  to  defraud  the  In 
dians  of  the  food  and  clothing  sent  them  by  the  Government.  I  regret  to  say  that  all 
I  saw  myself  at  the  agency,  and  all  I  learned  from  trustworthy  observers  and  official 
records,  has  convinced  me  that  the  charges  were  well  founded. 


v,  in  regard  to  the  contractors,  were  you  convinced  that  the  agent 
w7as  in  league  in  order  to  defraud  the  Indians  of  their  food  ? 

A.  With  beef-contractors. 

Q.  What  contractors  were  you  satisfied  that  he  was  in  league  with  to 
defraud  them  of  their  clothing  ? 

A.  That  I  could  not  answer,  sir,  readily,  because  I  should  have  to 
look  at  some  evidence  which  I  have. 

Q.  You  -state  in  your  pamphlet,  with  reference  to  the  agent,  that  the 
"  threats  against  him  for  indignities  and  alleged  frauds  continually  prac 
ticed  upon  them  were  open  and  violent."  What  threats  did  you  hear 
there  ? 

A.  I  heard  Ked  Cloud  and  several  other  Indians  speak  in  the  strong 
est  terms  against  him,  and  use  threats. 

Q.  What  did  they  threaten  to  do  ?     What  were  their  threats  ? 

A.  To  drive  him  out,  and  I  think  kill  him  $  his  life  had  been  attempted 
before  that. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anybody  besides  Red  Cloud  so  threaten  ? 

A.  I  heard  Red  Dog  also  speak  very  strongly  on  the  same  subject. 

Q.  Did  they  give  as  a  reason  for  their  threats  his  defrauding  them 
out  of  their  food  and  clothing  ? 

A.  They  did. 

Q.  Did  you  inform  the  agent  of  their  threats  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 


67 

Q.  Did  you  inform  anybody  else  of  it  up  to  the  time  this  publication 
was  made? 

A.  I  talked  it  over  with  the  officers  who  were  with  me.  My  visit 
occurred,  as  you  know,  immediately  after  the  trouble  of  the  flag-staff 
affair,  when  there  was-  the  strongest  hostility  toward  the  agent,  and 
only  the  coolness  of  Lieutenant  Crawford  saved  the  agent  and  all  the 
white  people  at  the  agency  from  destruction,  and  the  excitement  had 
not  died  down— the  indignation  against  the  agent  for  that  and  for  the 
other  things,  which  probably  were  magnified  in  consequence  of  that  act 
of  his  about  the  flag-staff. 

Q.  Well  when  you  speak  of  the  "  debasing  influence  which  this  agency 
was  openly  exercising  upon  the  Indians,"  do  you  mean  by  that  more 
than  the  one  occurrence  which  you  mentioned  to  us  in  New  York  ? 

A.  I  mentioned  to  you  two  or  three  occurrences;  I  meant  those  and 
similar  things — things  of  the  same  kind. 

Q.  Did  you  observe  any  bad  results  from  these  debasing  influences 
that  you  speak  of? 

A.  My  testimony  given  in  New  York  is  clear  upon  those  points. 

Q.  Not  as  to  whether  you  observed  any  bad  results  to  the  Indians. 

A.  I  certainly  intended  to  say  so. 

Q.  Now,  you  say,  "  the  issues  of  annuity  goods,  of  beef  and  other 
supplies,  all  were  made  in  a  loose  and  unbusinesslike  way,  in  which 
a  just  distribution  among  the  Indians  was  impossible."  Now,  do  you 
state  of  your  own  knowledge  that  that  distribution  which  you  saw 
made  there  was  not  a  just  one? 

A.  I  refer  to  the  annuity  goods  particularly. 

Q.  And  the  beef  issues  and  all,  just  what  you  stated? 

A.  I  cannot  say  positively  about  the  beef  issues. 

Q.  Well,  the  annuity  goods. 

A.  I  think  there  was. 

Q.  Can  you  say  of  your  own  knowledge  that  it  was  an  unjust  one; 
you  saw  it  ? 

A.  Not  strictly  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  from  the  information  I 
derived  on  the  spot  from  those  most  interested. 

Q.   Whom? 

A.  Red  Dog  was  one,  and  others  whose  names  I  gave  you. 

Q.  Well,  from  your  knowledge  and  experience  among  the  Indians, 
will  you  take  the  word  of  any  Indian,  in  a  matter  in  which  he  is  inter 
ested,  in  preference  to  the  written  statements  and  accounts  of  white 
men  in  reference  to  the  same  business  ? 

A.  I  would  not. 

Q.  You  say,  "Agent  Saville  was  placed  in  his  position  to  guard  the 
interests  of  the  Indians  and  of  the  Government,  and  it  appeared  til  at 
he  betrayed  both  alike."  Now,  do  you  state  that  he  defrauded  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  do  you  state  that  of  your  own  knowledge? 

A.  I  think  I  do,  sir. 

Q.  You  state  that  "  he  defrauded  the  Indians  by  withholding  from 
them  provisions  which  he  charged  against  the  Government  as  issued  to 
them."  Do  you  know  that  fact  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  went  into  that  point  quite  thoroughly  about  the  issue  of  Novem 
ber  8. 

Q.  The  question  is,  do  you  know  that  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  have  information,  which  [  obtained  on  the  spot,  that  there  was 
no  issue  November  8- 


68 

Q.  That  is  not  the  question.  You  stated  that  he  defrauded  the  Indians 
by  withholding  from  them  provisions  which  he  had  charged  against  the 
Government  as  issued  to  them.  Now,  do  you  know  that  of  your  own 
knowledge. 

A.  From  what  I  know  of  my  own  knowledge,  with  the  information  I 
derived  from  the  agent  himself  and  his  official  papers,  I  feel 

Q.  That  is  not  the  question.  Do  you  know  it  ?  I  don't  want  your 
conclusion  from  anything  you  heard,  or  what  the  agent  or  anybody  else 
told  you,  because  we  have  all  that  ourselves.  I  want  to  know  what 
your  knowledge  is  of  it. 

A.  I  don't  know  positively  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  That  is  the  clearest  and  most  distinct  charge  contained  in  this 
whole  pamphlet^  and  charges  a  high  crime  on  a  Government  official  in 
plain,  unmistakable  language,  and  I  just  want  a  plain,  simple  answer  to 
the  question,  yes  or  no.  Did  you  state  it  of  your  own  knowledge. 

A.  You  refer  particularly  to  this  issue  of  November  8  ? 

Q.  I  refer  to  just  what  you  say :  "He  defrauded  the  Indians  by  with 
holding  from  them  provisions  which  he  charged  against  the  Govern 
ment  as  issued  to  them."  Now,  then,  do  you  know  that"? 

A.  I  think  I  do. 

Q.  You  state,  then,  that  you  do  know  ? 

A.  I  think  I  can. 

Q.  You  state,  then,  that  it  is  so  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  mean  by  that,  that  what  I  saw  myself  put  with  what  the 
official  documents  showed.     When  I  say  he  charged  them  against  the 
Government,  of  course  that  is  derived  from  the  official  documents. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  must  have  known  that  goods  not  issued  were  charged,  else 
you  would  not  state  it. 
A.  I  do  know  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  they  were  not  issued  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  state  that  "  the  truth  is,  that  he  issued  no  beef  whatever  to 
the  Indians  on  that  day,"  the  8th  of  November,  1874.  Were  you  there 
on  that  day  ? 

A.  I  state  just  below  that  I  arived  on  the  9th. 

Q.  Were  you  there  that  day  f 

A.  I  was  not. 

Q.  Where  were  you,  then  ? 

A.  On  my  way,  very  near  there. 

Q.  How  far  from  there  were  you  on  the  morning  of  the  8th  of  Nov 
ember  1 

A.  On  the  morning  of  the  8th  of  November  I  was  camped  on  the  Raw 
Hide. 

Q.  That  is  how  far  from  Eed  Cloud  I 

A.  You  have  been  over  the  ground.     It  is  about  52  miles. 

Q.  You  were  at  the  Eaw  Hide  on  the  8th  of  November ;  then  how 
can  you  say  of  your  own  knowledge  that  he  did  not  issue  beef  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  on  that  day? 

A.  I  did  not  mean  to  say  that.  I  was  not  there ;  of  course,  I  could  not 
have  personal  knowledge  if  I  was  not  there;  I  mean  what  1  knew  myself 
when  I  got  there,  derived  from  the  officials.  You  misunderstood  me. 
If  you  ask  me  if  I  knew  of  my  own  personal  knowledge  that  he  did  not 
deliver  that  beef  on  November  8,  that  idea  I  did  not  mean  to  convey  at 


69 

all,  of  course,  because  I  was  not  there ;  I  arrived  on  the  9th.  Of  what 
absolutely  took  place  at  the  agency  on  the  8th,  I  have  no  personal 
knowledge. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  ask  you  if  he  might  not  have  delivered  to  the  Indians 
the  beef  charged  as  of  November  8,  on  some  other  day  U 

A.  That  is  possible. 

Q.  So  that  the  Indians  would  not  have  been  defrauded,  although  the 
date  was  wrong. 

A.  That  is  possible;  I  have  my  information  from  his  own  documents, 
touching  that  very  point,  which  I  will  take  up,  proving  what  I  say  here 
clearly,  I  think. 

Q.  You  state  that  the  first  issue  of  beef,  after  the  counting  was  fin 
ished,  was  made  on  the  14th  of  November  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  when  the  counting  was  finished  ? 

A.  About  the  12th  or  13th  ;  within  two  or  three  days  of  that  time.  I 
think  those  documents  referred  to  the  13th  as  the  date  when  it  was  ab 
solutely  completed. 

Q.  Now  you  state  that  "his  official  reports  represent  other  issues  that 
never  took  place  ;"  do  you  state  that  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  derived  that  conclusion 

Q.  It  is  merely  a  conclusion  ? 

A.  It  is  a  conclusion. 

Q.  Based  upon  information  from  others  ? 

A.  From  others  and  from  the  official  reports. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  a  fact  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  ? 

A.  It  is  not  to  any  great  extent. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  to  aiiy  extent  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  without  comparing  the  provisions  I  saw  delivered 
carefully  with  his  official  reports. 

Q.  Can  you  say  of  your  own  knowledge  that  his  official  reports  repre 
sent  any  issue  of  beef  that  never  took  place? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  can. 

Q.  You  state  here  that  in  the  report  made  by  United  States  Indian 
Inspector  J.  D.  Bevier,  October  21, 1874,  the  inspector  exposed  a  fraud 
ulent  contract  made  by  Agent  Saville  with  his  lather-in  law,  A.  E.  Ap- 
pletou,  by  which  the  Government  would  have  been  largely  a  loser.  Do 
you  know  anything  of  that  of  your  own  knowledge,  further  than  Be- 
vier's  report  states  ? 

A.  I  don't,  except  that  I  heard 

Q.  Then  that  statement  that  it  was  a  fraudulent  contract  is  an  infer 
ence  of  yours,  or  a  presumption  of  yours  ? 

A.  It  is  based  on  the  official  report  and  on  facts  which  I  learned  at 
the  agency. 

Q.  And  not  of  your  personal  knowledge  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  What  "other  special  commissioners  of  the  Interior  Department 
had  likewise  reported  unfavorably  to  this  agent  and  affairs  at  the 
agency?" 

A.  I  will  give  you  a  list  of  the  names. 

Q.  You  state,  "And  yet  this  man  has  for  the  last  two  years,  with  the 
full  approval  of  the  Department,  had  charge  of  the  most  important 
agency  in  the  West."  What  are  your  means  of  knowing  that  the  De 
partment  approved  of  his  conduct  of  affairs  at  that  agency  I 

A.  First,  that  thev  retained  him. 

Q.  That  is  all  ? 


70 

A.  I  think  I  can  give  some  additional  evidence  on  that  point. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  times  the  Department  had  sent  men  to 
investigate  his  affairs  during  those  two  years  ? 

A.  Several  times. 

Q.  You  state  that  there  were  half  a  million  of  dollars  a  year  passed 
through  his  hands  —  ? 

A.  Nearly  half  a  million  of  dollars  a  year,  I  think  I  said. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that  half  a  million  of  dollars  in  money J? 

A.  No,  sir;  in  value — in  property. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that,  then,  that  he  receives  and  issues  goods  and 
supplies  worth  half  a  million  of  dollars  ? 

A.  I  received  that  information  from  Commissioner  Smith. 

Q.  You  said  that  "  he  fell  an  easy  victim  to  the  wiles  of  beef  and 
freight  contractors."  Is  that  matter  stated  of  your  own  knowledge,  or 
is  it  merely  an  inference  of  yours? 

A.  From  the  best  information  I  could  get  on  the  subject  at  the  time: 
it  is  an  inference  based  on  evidence  that  I  propose  to  give. 

Q.  You  don't  know  anything  of  it  personally  ? 

A.  I  think  I  do  5  1  propose  to  take  up  that  question,  and  then  I  will 
give  you  my  evidence  on  that  point. 

Q.  Do  you  say  now  that  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  he  was  in 
duced  by  contractors  to  engage  in  fraudulent  practices  ? 

A.  I  do  not  say  it  of  my  personal  knowledge  alone. 

Q.  I  do  not  ask  you  about  "  alone.'7  Have  you  any  personal  knowl 
edge  on  that  subject  of  his  having  fallen  an  easy  victim  to  the  wiles  of 
the  contractors  ? 

A.  I  think  I  have. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  your  personal  knowledge  on  that  subject  ? 

A.  I  will  try  to  do  so  5  I  do  not  speak  positively  ;  but  I  think  I  can 
give  you  some  facts  from  rny  personal  knowledge  5  the  question  fairly 
indicated  that. 

Q.  When  you  made  the  charge,  did  you  make  it  upon  personal  knowl 
edge  or  upon  information  ? 

A.  Generally  upon  information  I  got  there. 

Q.  And  not  on  your  personal  knowledge? 

A.  Not  on  my  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Can  you  state  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  that  the  number 
of  Indians  supplied  with  provisions  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  has  been 
largely  overestimated  ? 

A.  I  state  here  in  my  pamphlet  that  I  have  good  reason  to  believe 
that,  and  I  based  that  statement  upon  the  best  information  I  could  get 
at  the  time,  but  not  upon  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Then  your  reasons  are  based  upon  information  derived  from 
others  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don't  personally  know  the  number  of  Indians  there  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Does  the  fact  that  you  found  "  less  than  forty  lodges  "  north  of 
White  Kiver  on  that  occasion  preclude  the  possibility  of  there  being  a 
number  of  other  Indians  reported  by  the  men  who  counted  them  ? 

A.  It  does  not ;  that  merely  applies  to  one  point,  namely,  the  northern 
Indians;  and  as  the  agent  was  just  then  making  his  official  report,  I 
obtained  from  him  the  number  of  northern  Indians  that  he  said  were 
there.  That  point  I  know  of  my  own  personal  knowledge.  Agent 
Saville  told  me  that  across  White  Kiver  there  were  a  large  number  of 
northern  Indians  encamped — some  2,000.  That  statement  he  repeat- 


71 

ed  in  Washington  when  be  was  here.  I  went  right  to  where  he 
said  those  Indians  were  encamped,  and  by  actual  count  there  were  less 
than  forty  lodges  ;  therefore  I  know  of  my  own  personal 

Question.  How  long  was  it  after  he  told  you  this  before  you  went 
there  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  within  a  day  or  two. 

Q.  Now,  might  not  those  Indians  have  gone  there  before  the  time  that 
Saville  told  you  that  they  were  there  and  after  the  time  that  they  had 
been  counted  ? 

A.  I  took  up  that  point  in  my  evidence  in  New  York.  The  northern 
Indians,  as  they  moved  away,  moved  north  toward  the  Black  Hills. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  state  from  your  own  knowledge  that  all  the  Indians 
that  were  down  there  from  the  north  had  moved  that  way  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  but  I  know  that  the  Indians  were  moving  away,  were 
going  in  that  direction,  and  had  been  going  ior  some  days.  I  waited 
several  days  to  have  them  go  off. 

Q.  There  might  have  been  Indians  there  who  went  in  another  direction, 
might  there  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  those  Indians  that  were  going  north  were 
going  to  the  Black  Hills  for  the  winter? 
A.  No;  they  moved  north.     I  don't  pretend  to  touch  that  question. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  In  what  direction  did  you  move  off  from  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  I  moved  nearly  north,  on  the  old  Arapahoe  trail,  crossing  the  White 
River  near  the  agency,  and  keeping  on  the  trail  up  nearl3T  to  the  Arapahoe 
camp,  and  leaving  the  Arapahoe  camp  on  the  left,  I  went  north  to  about 
12  miles  from  the  agency  ;  I  crossed  the  westerly-northern  trail ;  then  a 
few  days  later  I  crossed  the  other  northern  trail  farther  to  the  east 
several  times. 

Q.  About  how  far  away  from  the  agency  did  your  expedition  take 
you  ? 

A.  Not  more  than  25  miles. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  all  these  northern  Indians,  claimed  to  have  been  there,  may 
have  been  there  and  you  not  have  known  it,  may  they  not?  It  is  pos 
sible  that  they  might  have  been  there  and  you  not  have  known  the  fact, 
is  it  not? 

A.  They  might  have  been  farther  down  the  White  River ;  but  they 
could  not  have  been  where  Saville  and  the  others  of  whom  I  inquired 
said  they  were. 

Q.  That  is  not  exactly  the  question.  They  claimed  that  there  had 
been  at  the  agency  about  that  time,  to  draw  supplies  and  annuity-goods, 
a  certain  number  of  northern  Indians.  Now,  you  say  you  believe  "the 
thousands  of  Indians  officially  reported  at  this  agency  to  be  a  myth." 
That  is  a  mere  belief  of  yours,  I  believe. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  certainly. 

Q.  And  all  the  Indians  claimed  by  them  to  have  been  there  may  have 
been  there  and  you  not  have  known  it,  might  they  not  ? 

A.  I  might  not  have  known  it  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  was 
inquiring  of  men  who  knew  a  great  deal  about  them  when  I  went  over 
there. 

Q-  And  you  inquired  about  them  ? 


72 

A.  I  did,  particularly. 

Q.  Might  it  not  have  been  that  somewhere  in  that  country  there 
were  all  the  northern  Indians  claimed  by  them  to  have  been  there,  and 
the  men  you  inquired  of  not  have  known  the  fact  ? 

A.  It  is  possible  ;  I  merely  want  to  say  that  my  means  of  judging  of 
that  one  point,  I  think,  were  very  good  $  of  course  it  was  a  vital  point 
with  me. 

Q.  Now,  you  state  that,  when  you  were  there  in  November  last,  the 
number  of  Indians  actually  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  "  could  not  have  been 
more  than  1,200  lodges  or  8,400  individuals."  You  state  that  very  posi 
tively  and  as  of  your  own  knowledge ;  now,  do  you  state  the  number 
from  any  count  ? 

A.  Not  from  any  count ;  I  state  that  distinctly. 

Q.  You  did  not  count  them. 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Then,  would  you  say  that  your  own  judgment  in  guessing  at  the 
number  was  more  reliable  than  the  actual  count  made  by  men  who  went 
into  the  lodges'? 

A.  Certainly  not ;  I  merely  made  up  my  mind  on  that  point  after  get 
ting  the  best  information  I  could  from  various  sources. 

Q.  Now,  you  state  here,  "  The  statement  of  the  agent,  that  on  October 
1st  there  were  at  the  agency  over  15,000  Indians,  no  disinterested  per 
son  familiar  with  the  facts  believes  for  a  moment,  especially  as  at  that 
time  the  wilder  Indians  had  not  commenced  to  return  to  the  agency  for 
the  winter."  Now,  then,  did  you  see  all  the  persons  familiar  there  and 
who  were  disinterested  persons  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  that  I  saw  every  person  familiar  with  the  facts  who 
was  disinterested,  but  a  good  many ;  and  I  have  since  received  a  good 
deal  of  information  on  that  point  from  those  who  know  particularly  about 
it.  I  hope  by  to-morrow  to  have  definite  information  on  that  point  from 
a  man  who  is,  perhaps,  better  qualified  to  judge  than  any  other  man  of 
the  number  of  Indians  at  Ked  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  You  say  that  no  disinterested  person  familiar  with  the  facts  believes 
that  statement  for  a  moment.  That  is  a  mere  belief  of  yours  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  believe  so  still. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  It  is  not  stated  as  a  matter  of  belief,  but  as  a  matter 
of  positive  knowledge. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  Professor,  about  the  time  of  your  arrival  at  Ked  Cloud,  as  I  under 
stand,  there  was  a  census  taking? 

A.  It  was  being  made  when  I  arrived. 

Q.  Jules  Ecoffee  and  the  two  brothers  whom  you  know  and  have  spoken 
of  before,  (Nicholas  and  Antoine  Jauis)  were  engaged  in  taking  it  and 
I  understand  that  they  reported  between  twelve  and  thirteen  thousand 
Indians  there  at  that  time.  If  I  understand  the  case  as  it  stands  in 
your  book,  the  issue  between  you  and  Saville  is  this :  Saville  claims 
that  between  two  and  three  thousand  northern  Indians  left  the  agency 
and  went  north  immediately  after  the  flag-staff  difficulty,  which  occurred 
early  in  that  month.  Were  there  so  many  Indians  who  went  north  after 
that  difficulty  ?  He  claims  there  were  two  or  three  thousand,  and  you 
say  there  were  not  anything  like  so  many.  I  want  to  ask  this  question, 
simply,  Whether  it  was  not  a  matter  talked  about  there,  when  you 
arrived,  that  some  Indians  had  left  for  the  north  immediately  after  the 
trouble  about  the  flag-staff? 

A.  I  didn't  hear  anything  said  about  that. 


73 

Q.  Did  Saville  say  that? 

A.  I  didn't  hear  him  say  so. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  information  about  it? 

A.  I  got  it  from  Saville  at  the  agency,  when  I  was  inquiring  about 
going  up ;  and  again  when  he  was  here  in  Washington,  I  think,  before 
Bishop  Hare. 

Q.  Saville  did  claim,  when  you  saw  him  in  November,  that  some  In 
dians  went  north  in  October  and  November  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  he  touched  that  point  at  all.  I  have  no  recollection 
of  any  conversation  with  him  in  which  he  stated  that  fact. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  a  large  number — two  thousand— were  across  the 
White  River  ? 

A.  Yes ;  he  stated  that  several  times. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  to  understand  that  those  Indians  had  gone  there 
after  the  flag-staff  difficulty  in  October? 

A.  He  did  not  state  that. 

Q.  But  you  say  it  is  possible  that  there  might  have  been  some  Indians 
on  the  White  River  that  you  did  not  see  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  went  over  high  bluffs,  and  I  could  see  the  lodges  for 
ten  miles,  and  if  there  had  been  any  others  in  that  region  I  would  have 
seen  them.  I  crossed  there,  and  took  particular  pains  to  count  them. 

Q.  The  fact  that  twelve  or  thirteen  thousand  Indians  were  at  the 
agency  on  the  12th  of  November,  as  shown  by  the  census,  is  a  surprise 
to  you,  from  the  number  you  saw  there? 

A.  Decidedly  a  surprise. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  from  observation  you  are  able  to  pronounce 
ii  judgment  upon  that  matter  which  would  be  a  safe  guide  to  these  com 
missioners  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  may  say  here  that  it  would  be  strange  if  the  northern 
Indians  started  away  just  before  the  annuity-goods  were  to  be  issued — 
very  strange. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  in  reference  to  the  issue  of  annuity-goods,  you  say  you  were 
present  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  at  the  annual  issue  of  annuity-goods, 
November  12,  1874.  Was  that  the  first  issue  of  annuity-goods  you  ever 
saw  ? 

A.  The  first  regular  issue. 

Q.  You  state  that  Red  Dog  strongly  asserted  that  the  issue  was  fraud 
ulent,  and  that  the  number  of  blankets  issued  was  much  less  than  the 
Indians  were  entitled  to,  and  that  the  number  issued  to  him  for  his  own 
band  was  not  more  than  half  what  he  should  have  had  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir,  I  say  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  an  Indian  to  receive  anything,  under  like  cir 
cumstances,  that  he  did  not  insist  that  it  was  not  enough  ? 

A.  As  a  rule  I  never  have;  I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying  that. 

Q.  You  never  knew  an  Indian  to  receive  anything  but  he  thought  he 
ought  to  have  more  ? 

A.  That  would  be  the  rule,  especially  if  he  was  getting  it  from  the 
agency. 

Q.  Now,  you  state  that  you  were  reasonably  certain  that  the  number 
of  bales  of  blankets  issued  could  not  possibly  have  exceeded  twenty- 
five  bales  on  that  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  say  positively,  of  your  own  knowledge,  that  there  were 
not  thirty-five  bales  of  blankets  issued  on  that  day  ? 


74 

A.  I  could  not  say  positively  that  tbere  were  not;  bat  I  feel  con 
vinced  that  there  were  not,  from  my  observation. 

Q.  When  did  you  first  ask  Louis  Reshaw  about  the  number  of  blankets 
issued  there? 

A.  In  May  last,  here  in  Washington. 

Q.  Do  you  base  your  statement  of  the  number  of  blankets  upon 
Reshaw's  reports  to  you,  or  upon  your  own  observation  ? 

A.  Both. 

Q.  Did  you  write  the  certificate  which  he  signed  in  reference  to  the 
blankets ? 

A.  I  did  ;  embodying  in  it  carefully  his  exact  statement. 

Q.  Did  you  read  it  to  him  after  you  had  written  it ? 

A.  I  did,  and  he  read  it  all ;  at  least  I  handed  it  to  him,  and  he 
looked  it  over. 

Q.  You  state  there  that  you  were  "  surprised  to  find  that  he  had  certi 
fied  to  the  issue  of  November  12,  1874,  of  any  less  than  thirty-five  bales 
of  blankets.7'  Now,  can  you  say  that  that  certificate  was  not  true  ? 

A.  I  merely  had  my  remembrance  of  the  blankets  as  I  saw  them 
issued. 

Q.  Yes.  But  can  you  now,  upon  your  responsibility,  contradict  that 
certificate,  and  say  that  it  is  not  true  ? 

A.  Not  positively. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  know  at  that  time  what  number  of  blankets  should  be 
shipped  to  the  Indians? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Red  Cloud  or  Red  Dog  knew  the  number  of 
bales  that  the  Department  had  designed  for  them  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  they  did  for  that  particular  year. 

Q.  Then,  so  far  as  your  pamphlet  seems  to  imply  that  both  Red  Cloud 
and  Red  Dog  complained  that  they  did  not  get  one-half  the  blankets 
that  the  Department  designed  for  them,  (that  seems  to  be  implied,)  if 
they  simply  complained  that  they  did  not  get  one-half  as  many  blankets 
as  they  ought  to  have,  that  is  one  thing;  and  if  they  complained  that  they 
did  not  get  one-half  as  many  blankets  as  the  Department  intended  for 
them,  that  is  another  thing.  Now,  I  want  you  to  put  it  as  you  intended 
it. 

A.  An  Indian  like  Red  Cloud  or  Red  Dog  would  judge  of  what  he 
ought  to  have  one  year  by  wThat  he  had  received  another  year.  They 
remember  such  things  very  accurately;  hence,  in  stating  that  they  did 
not  get  what  they  were  entitled  to,  they  may  have  based  their  opinions 
upon  the  previous  issue.  They  may  not  have  had  any  means  of  know 
ing  what  the  Government  intended  for  them  for  that  particular  year. 

Q.  Did  you  know  at  that  time  that  the  year  before  the  Red  Cloud 
Indians  had  had  more  than  their  share  by, some  extent,  while  the  Indians 
at  the  Whetstone  agency  had  less  ? 

A.  I  did  not ;  I  never  heard  of  it  before. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  you  say,  "  Hence  it  would  appear  that  the  Indians  at  this 
agency  received  less  than  one-half  the  number  of  blankets  for  which  the 
Government  paid.'7  That  is  not  a  statement  of  fact,  of  your  own  knowl 
edge,  for  which  you  would  desire  to  be  made  responsible,  but  a  mere 
conclusion  from  the  facts? 

A.  A  conclusion  from  the  facts,  as  I  then  looked  at  them. 


75 

Q.  Professor,  you  enter  here  your  protest  against  the  manner  of 
issuing  those  goods.  You  say,  "  The  entire  issue  for  the  year  was  made 
in  a  few  hours  of  a  single  November  day,  in  the  midst  of  a  snow-storm." 
Was  there  anything  criminally  wrong  in  that  f 

A.  Not  criminally  wrong ;  but  it  indicated  gross  mismanagement,  in 
my  opinion. 

Q.  You  state  that  u  The  Indians  had  been  suffering  for  want  of  their 
blankets  and  other  clothing"  at  that  time. 

A.  I  did ;  that  I  know  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Then,  if  they  were  correctly  apportioned  and  issued,  was  it  not 
desirable  to  issue  them  as  quickly  as'  possible  on  this  cold  November 
day  ? 

A.  The  difference  between  taking  one  day  and  two  days,  if  thereby  a 
more  business-like  distribution  could  be  made,  I  should  think  would 
make  but  very  little  difference. 

Q.  The  question  is  this :  The  Indians  were  suffering  then  in  the  cold 
for  those  blankets.  Now,  did  the  appearance  of  the  manner  of  doing  the 
business  justify  the  withholding  of  these  blankets  to  another  day,  if  they 
could  then  be  justly  apportioned  among  the  Indians  ? 

A    I  should  think  it  would. 

Q.  Just  for  the  business  appearance  of  it  ? 

A.  Not  for  the  business  appearance  of  it,  but  to  insure  accuracy  of 
delivery.  The  whole  thing  struck  me  at  the  time  very  forcibly  as  an 
outrage. 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  further.  You  have  made  that  statement ;  now,  do 
you  know  the  fact  that  those  goods  had  been  apportioned  and  put 
in  separate  piles,  such  of  them  as  were  required  so  to  be,  and  a  list  made 
out,  carefully  apportioning  all  the  goods  among  the  different  bands,  and 
that  list  in  the  hands  of  the  agent,  and  he  called  out  that  list,  and  the 
clerks  delivered  all  that  the  list  called  for?  Do  you  not  know  that  that 
list  had  been  carefully  prepared  to  apportion  those  goods  among  the 
Indians  justly  according  to  their  number  ? 

A.  I  say,  distinctly,  that  as  1  watched  that  issue  with  the  greatest 
care 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  there  was  no  such  list  as  that  ? 

A.  I  think  my  evidence  is  quite  full  on  this  point. 

Q.  Do  you  say  there  was  no  such  list  as  that? 

A.  I  say  that  all  the  agent  had  to  go  by  was  a  pencil  memorandum  in 
his  hand. 

Q.  If  that  pencil  memorandum  contained  a  statement  of  a  just  distri 
bution  of  the  goods,  what  was  there  wrong  about  it  ? 

A.  The  rapidity  with  which  the  goods  were  called  off  and  thrown  out 
would  make  it  impossible  for  a  careful  count  of  the  goods. 

Q.  If  the  goods  had  been  previously  counted  and  piled  in  separate 
piles,  the  name  called  off  to  which  each  particular  pile  belonged,  what 
was  there  in  the  rapidity  with  which  they  were  delivered  that  would 
cause  any  fraud  or  injustice  ? 

A.  They  had  not  been  previously  put  in  piles. 

Q.  You  state  that  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  do ;  I  mean  by  that  that  where  goods  were  contained  in  a  single 
bale  more  than  enough  for  single  bands,  that  bale  was  cut  with  tlie 
greatest  haste,  the  goods  turned  out  of  this  bale  and  thrown  out  in  the 
snow7.  That  I  saw  repeatedly. 

Q.  You  say  that  "the  only  data  by  which  the  issue  was  regulated  was 
the  pencil  memorandum  in  the  hands  of  the  agent  who  called  off  the 
quantity  to  be  delivered  to  each  chief  or  headman."  Now,  will  you  say 


76 

that  the  memorandum  which  he  had  in  his  hands  did  not  state  a  just 
distribution  of  those  goods? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  mean  to  say  that  the  list,  as  written  down,  was  not 
just,  but  I  do  mean  to  say  that  the  rapidity  with  which  the  bales  were 
cut,  and  the  goods  taken  from  the  bales  and  thrown  out,  was  such  that 
it  was,  in  my  judgment,  impossible  to  insure  an  accurate  and  just  dis 
tribution. 

Q.  Will  you  say,  of  your  own  knowledge,  standing  there  and  seeing 
that  issue,  that  the  distribution  was  not  made  in  accordance  with  the 
list? 

A.  I  cannot,  but  I  now  will  explain 

Q.  You  say  here,  u  Hence  there  was  no  guarantee  that  the  Indians 
received  even  half  of  the  goods  intended  for  them." 

A.  That  1  can  say. 

Q.  Now,  you  say,  "The  Indians  watched  the  issue  with  suspicion.'7 
Did  you  ever  see  any  transaction  in  which  an  Indian  was  interested 
which  he  did  not  watch  with  suspicion  ? 

A.  O,  yes. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  question  is,  Did  you  see  anything  at  that  issue  that  would  con 
clusively  settle  the  question  of  fraud  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  did. 

Q.  As  I  understood,  it  was  cold  weather,  and  the  issue  was  late ;  the 
Indians  in  the  camps  were  scattered  over  a  broad  extent  of  country, 
from  five  to  fifteen  or  twenty  miles.  Now,  if  it  had  been  understood 
that  on  that  day  there  would  have  been  an  issue  of  annuity-goods,  and 
the  headmen  had  assembled  for  the  purpose  of  receiving  them,  do  you 
think  that  those  facts,  supposing  them  to  be  true,  would  in  any  way  justify 
the  apparent  haste  in  the  distribution  of  the  goods  which  you  witnessed? 

A.  I  do  not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  we  will  go  on.  With  reference  to  the  beef-cattle,  you  say, 
u  The  frauds  perpetrated  in  supplying  the  lied  Cloud  agency  with 
beef-cattle  have  been  so  gigantic,  and  so  long  and  systematically  con 
tinued,  that  it  is  well  worth  while  to  show  how  they  are  accomplished, 
and  who  is  responsible  for  the  outrage."  Now,  did  you  mean  by  that  to 
charge  fraud  in  this  matter  of  your  own  knowledge — of  which  you  had 
personal  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  think  I  did. 

Q.  You  state  that  that  had  been  long  continued.     How  long  ? 

A.  That  I  should  want  to  take  up  deliberately,  and  give  a  deliberate 
answer  when  I  have  my  documents  with  me. 

Q.  You  also  state  that  they  had  been  "  systematically  continued."  I 
would  like  you  to  think  of  that  matter,  and  you  can  give  us  an  answer 
about  it  some  other  time. 

A.  That  was  my  belief  when  I  wrote  it. 

Q.  Professor,  what  is  your  understanding  of  the  legal  meaning  of  the 
word  fraud? 

A.  Well,  I  am  not  a  lawyer. 

Q.  You  charge  distinctly,  in  reference  to  this  matter,  fraud.  Now,  I 
merely  make  the  inquiry  because  it  will  govern  somewhat  my  manner 
of  dealing  with  the  charge,  to  know  whether  you  make  it  in  the  legal 
sense  of  the  term  "  fraud." 

A.  I  don't  think  I  do. 


77 

Q.  Well,  what  do  you  mean  by  the  word  "fraud'7  as  you  use  it;  what 
did  you  mean  to  imply  by  it  ? 

A.  For  example,  it  an  agent  gave  a  receipt  for  cattle  with  weights 
greater  than  the  absolute  weights  of  the  cattle,  of  a  single  pound,  I 
should  say  that  was  a  fraud. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that,  deceiving  and  cheating? 

A.  I  mean  deception. 

Q.  Well,  you  mean  obtaining  by  dishonest  means,  money,  or  suffering 
another  to  do  it  ? 

A.  I  mean,  for  example,  giving  a  receipt  that  does  not  correctly 
represent  the  fact,  by  which  the  Government  or  the  Indians  are  deprived 
of  the  difference  represented. 

Q.  Well,  when  you  use  the  words  perpetrated  a  fraud,  in  this  sense, 
in  connection  with  this  subject  of  beef,  you  mean  that  the  party  obtained 
by  dishonest  means  money'from  the  Government,  for  which  he  had  not 
rendered  value  on  his  contract ;  is  that  what  you  mean  by  it? 

A.  Well,  nearly  that. 

Q.  Well,  did  you,  in  making  these  charges  of  fraud,  make  them  with 
the  understanding  that  you  would  be  legally  responsible  for  making  such 
charges  against  the  parties  you  implicate  I  Was  that  your  intention? 
You  know  that  to  charge  a  man  with  a  crime  is,  by  law,  a  thing  for 
which  he  may  bring  an  action  against  you  if  it  is  not  true.  Did  you 
make  this  charge  of  fraud  with  the  intention  of  being  responsible  for  it  ? 

A.  I  meant,  definitely,  to  charge  the  agent  with  fraudulent  purposes. 

Q.  And  to  take  the  legal  consequences  of  it,  whatever  they  might  be — 
to  be  responsible  for  the  charge  ? 

A.  Of  course  I  expect  to  be  responsible  for  what  I  say  ;  I  say  nothing 
but  what  I  believe. 

Q.  A  man  may  say  what  he  believes,  but  if  his  belief  should  happen 
to  be  wrong 

A.  I  mean  to  say  that  I  believe  the  agent  was  guilty  of  fraudulent 
purposes,  and  I  think  I  prove  it. 

Q.  Now,  in  reference  to  the  contract  of  Foreman,  you  say,  "There  is 
abundant  evidence  that  this  contract  was  not  made  in  good  faith." 
What  do  you  mean  by  good  faith  there — what  did  you  intend  by  that — 
that  he  did  not  intend  to  comply  with  his  contract? 

A.  I  meant  by  that,  that  he  did  not  intend  to  fill  it  himself  when  he 
got  it. 

Q.  Did  you  mean  that  the  other  contracting  party,  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  was  not  acting  in  good  faith  ? 

A.  I  think  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  was  not  doing  the  fair 
thing  in  letting  the  contract  in  that  way.  He  stated  in  New  York  that 
he  knew  nothing  of  Mr.  Foreman;  was  not  personally  acquainted  with 
him. 

Q.  You  say  here  that  the  contract  was  not  filled  by  the  party  to  whom 
it  was  given,  but  was  transferred  a  few  days  after  it  was  signed  to  W. 
A.  Paxton,  of  Omaha. 

A.  Yes;  for  a  "  valuable  consideration." 

Q.  Now,  if  the  contract  was  complied  with  strictly  and  fully,  would 
there,  in  your  judgment,  be  any  fraud  upon  the  Government  in  it  hav 
ing  been  transferred  or  assigned  ? 

A.  1  don't  think  it  is  a  right  thing  for  the  Government  to  do. 

Q.  Yes,  but  that  is  not  the  question ;  it  Foreman  did  not  complete 
the  contract,  if  he  did  assign  it  to  Paxton,  and  if  Paxton  did  complete 
his  with  all  its  requirements,  how  was  the  Government  defrauded  by  it? 


78 

A.  The  Government  lost  what  Paxton  paid  Foreman — that  is,  the 
"  valuable  consideration." 

Q.  How  do  you  make  that  appear;  the  Government  had  made  this 
contract  with  Foreman;  he  was  bound  by  it;  how  could  the  Govern 
ment  lose  anything  by  an  assignment  of  it? 

A.  Because,  if  Mr.  Paxton  tilled  the  contract  for  the  price  it  cost  him, 
and  the  Government  had  let  that  contract  to  Mr.  Foreman  at  a  higher 
price,  the  Government  lost  the  difference. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Well,  we  will  not  argue  that. 

WITNESS.  I  speak  of  that  in  this  way,  because  any  one  familiar 
with  the  letting  of  Indian  contracts  knows  the  peculiar  methods  by 
which  bids  are  obtained — the  net-work  of  bids  that  is  set  to  get  a  con 
tract  some  way  or  other. 

Q.  But  you  don't  charge,  in  this  instance,  that  there  was  any  net 
work  set  to  get  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  imply  it. 

Q.  Do  you  now  mean  to  state  that  there  was  such  a  net-work  to  get 
the  contract  ? 

A.  I  mean  to  say  that  I  heard  so  at  the  time. 

Q.  And  you  believed  it  ?  - 

A.  I  believed  it,  just  as  I  heard  that  this  last  year  there  was  a  similar 
net  set  to  get  the  beef-contract,  and  that  in  spite  of  all  the  purchasing- 
committee  could  do  the  contract  went  where  they  did  not  intend  it  to 
go. 

Q.  Didn't  it  go  to  the  lowest  bidder  this  year? 

A.  It  did  not ;  I  understand  not. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  it  did  not  go  to  the  lowest  bidder  ? 

A.  I  understand  that  it  did  not. 

Q.  You  say  this  Foreman  contract  was  nominally  in  force  at  the  time 
of  your  visit  to  Red  Cloud  agency.  Do  you  say  that  it  was  not  actually 
in  force  ? 

A.  I  give  my  impression  from  the  information  I  got. 

Q.  Do  you  say  now  that  it  was  not  actually  in  force  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  You  cannot  say  that  it  was  not  actually  in  force  at  that  time.  Do 
you  say  that  that  contract  was  not  filled  in  the  name  of  Paxton,  and 
the  vouchers  for  all  the  beef  delivered  under  that  contract  were  not 
made  in  the  name  of  Paxton  f 

A.  I  know  they  were  nearly  all  so  made. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  when  you  say  it  was  "  nominally  "  in  force  ? 

A.  That  word,  nominally,  is  a  clear  word. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  it  was  not  actually  in  force? 

A.  I  mean  to  say  by  that  that  Mr.  Paxton  was  not  the  only  one  inter 
ested  in  that  contract;  that,  although  his  name  was  used,  he  was  not 
the  absolute  person. 

Q.  In  your  mind  was  it  an  evidence  of  fraud,  because  other  people 
might  be  interested  in  filling  a  contract  and  interested  in  the  profits  of 
it? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 


79 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  Tuesday,  September  14,  1875. 
Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;   Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon. 
CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

The  examination  of  Professor  Marsh  was  resumed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  When  you  say  u  the  real  beef-contractor,  however,  whom  1 
found  supplying  this  agency  was  the  well-known  Bosler,"  do  you  know 
whether  he  was  supplying  the  beef  in  the  name  of  the  contractor  or  in 
his  own  name? 

Answer.  In  the  name  of  Paxton,  and  not  in  his  own  name. 

Q.  Then,  if  Paxton  was  the  contractor,  and  Bosler  supplied  the  beef  in 
his  name,  how  was  Bosler  the  real  contractor  ? 

A.  That  would  depend  on  the  meaning  of  the  word  contractor.  The 
person  named  in  the  first  contract  was  J.  K.  Foreman,  of  Omaha. 

Q.  Well,  Foreman  assigned  it  to  Paxtou,  and  Bosler  filled  it  for 
Paxton? 

A.  As  agent,  as  he  says.  But  I  think  it  is  clearly  understood  by  all 
familiar  with  the  contracts  themselves,  so  far  as  the  letting  is  concerned, 
and  the  filling  of  the  contracts,  by  people  on  the  spot,  that  Mr.  Bosler  is 
the  real  man  who  controls  the  whole  thing;  therefore  I  say  the  real  con 
tractor. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  controlling  the  whole  thing  ? 

A.  I  think  Mr.  Bosler  explained  that  point  yesterday.  In  few  words, 
I  mean  that  when  the  bids  are  made  a  great  many  names  are  put  in,  and 
to  whomever  the  contract  may  be  awarded  Mr.  Bosler  gets  it.  He  stands 
outside,  and  if  a  low  bid  is  put  in  he  buys  the  contract  of  this  man,  or 
obtains  his  permission  to  fill  it — virtually  buys  him  out.  Mr.  J.  K.  Fore 
man,  for  example,  when  the  bid  was  given  to  him,  did  not  reside  in 
Omaha;  was  not,  as  I  understand,  ready  to  fulfill  such  a  contract  as 
was  given  to  him.  That  is,  had  he  alone  been  held  to  the  strict  fulfill 
ment  of  the  contract,  he  could  not  have  filled  it.  Mr.  Bosler,  who  has, 
as  is  generally  known,  1  think,  controlled  the  beef-supplies  for  the  Sioux 
Indians  for  several  years;  was,  perhaps,  the  only  man,  in  connection  with 
the  men  who  shared  with  him,  who  was  capable  of  filling  such  a  con 
tract.  1  will  explain  that  matter. 

Q.  Explain  how  the  Government  is  defrauded  in  this  matter.  If  Bosler 
does  furnish  beef  in  the  name  of  Paxtou,  or  for  Paxton,  or  tor  Foreman, 
or  lor  anybody  else,  and  the  contract  made  with  the  Government  for 
beef  is  filled,  how  is  the  Government  defrauded  ?  That  is  what  I  want 
you  to  explain. 

A.  The  Government  is  not  necessarily  defrauded  under  that  contract, 
but  the  Government  loses  the  difference  in  price  mentioned  in  the  first 
contract  and  that  agreed  upon  between  the  real  contractor  and  the 
nominal  contractor. 

Q.  If  the  Government  gets  the  beef  at  the  price  it  contracted  to  pay 
for  it,  no  matter  who  furnishes  it  or  how  it  is  furnished,  how  do  you 
explain  that  the  Government  is  either  loser  or  is  defrauded  in  the 
matter? 

A.  In  this  way:  If  men  stand  ready  to  fill  a  contract  at  a  certain 
price,  and  that  contract  is  given  to  some  one  else  at  a  higher  price,  I 
claim  that  the  Government  loses  if  it  does  not  secure  that  difference  by 
the  proper  letting  of  the  contracts-;  there  is  mismanagement  and  loss  to 
the  Government. 


80 

Q.  Now,  you  say  that  Bosler  is  ''notorious  for  frauds  i«  previous  con 
tracts."  Will  you  please  refer  us  to  those  previous  contracts  and  pre 
vious  frauds? 

A.  For  what  I  regard  as  previous  frauds. 

Q.  I  do  not  want  what  you  regard  at  all ;  I  want  the  fact  exactly 
about  this  thing.  I  just  want  you  to  tell  us  where  is  the  contract,  and 
where  is  the  evidence  of  the  fraud.  If  he  is  notorious  for  frauds  in  pre 
vious  contracts  you  will  have  no  difficulty  in  giving  us  the  facts 
about  it  ? 

A.  For  one  fraud  in  the  delivery  of  beef  I  would  refer  to  the  report  of 
Commissioners  Keinble  and  Alvord,  the  special  commissioners  who  made 
the  report  for  the  Indian  Department  dated  June  10,  1873,  and  with 
this  report  the  additional  oral  information  given  to  the  Department  at 
the  time  the  report  was  handed  in,  in  July,  1873. 

Q.  Oral  information — was  there  any  memorandum  made  of  it  ? 

A.  When  Mr.  Alvord  comes,  or  when  you  get  his  statement,  you  will 
have  information  on  that  very  point. 

Q.  Well,  but  Mr.  Alvord's  oral  statement  to  the  commissioners,  or  any 
body  else,  is  no  evidence  to  us  of  these  frauds  until  he  makes  it. 

A.  I  refer  especially  at  this  moment  to  the  report  before  us,  and  refer 
to  the  Department,  and  especially  to  Mr.  Alvord  himself,  for  the  addi 
tional  information.  In  this  report 

Q.  We  don't  care  for  you  to  tell  us  what  is  in  that  report ;  we  can 
refer  to  it  ourselves. 

A.  I  would  like  to  read  the  particular  point.     It  is  only  a  few  words. 

Q.  Very  well ;  you  may  read  it. 

A.  In  this  report,  page  4,  it  is  stated  as  follows :  "  The  quantity  of 
beef  actually  received  by  the  Whetstone  agent  during  the  past  year  was 
unquestionably  greatly  less  than  that  receipted  for  to  the  contractor  $ 
the  amount  really  delivered  to  the  Indians  far  less  than  appeared  upon 
the  provision-returns." 

Q.  Well,  do  you  say  that  that  is  evidence  of  fraud  on  the  part  of 
Bosler? 

A.  I  would  like  to  give  one  other  statement 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  that  is  evidence? 

A.  I  regard  it  as  evidence. 

Q.  Of  course  you  can  state  nothing  of  your  own  knowledge,  because 
you  have  no  knowledge  of  your  own  about  that  transaction. 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  next  ? 

A.  The  report  of  the  Committee  on  Appropriations,  made  to  the  House 
of  Representatives  February  15,  1871,  shows  that  Bosler  was  allowed  to 
deliver  Texas  cattle  instead  of  the  American  oxen,  and  that  he  was  paid 
six  and  a  half  cents  per  pound  gross  weight,  when  the  cattle  delivered 
were  not  worth  more  than  one-half  that  price.  It  appears  further  that 
there  were  frauds  practiced  by  Bosler  in  the  weight  of  cattle. 

Q.  What  is  the  page  you  are  referring  to? 

A.  I  can't  give  you  all  the  pages  now.  The  document  is  the  report  of 
the  Committee  on  Appropriations,  made  to  the  House  of  Eepreseuta- 
tives  February  15,  1871.  I  refer  you  to  pages  233  et  seq.,  and  217. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  anything  further  to  .refer  to  upon  that  point  ? 

A.  Well,  I  say  in  addition  to  that,  "and  for  this  reason  he  is  excluded 
by  the  published  regulations  from  any  participation  in  future  contracts." 

Q.  And  that  is  a  statement  of  facts,  I  presume? 

A.  I  was  going  on  to  say  what  I  mean  by  that.     I  refer 


81 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Would  it  not  be  well  for  you  to  say  whether  there  is  any  further 
evidence  about  Bosler  being  "  notorious  for  frauds  in  previous  contracts?" 

A.  I  will  say  that  in  addition  to  that  I  can  give  the  information  that 
I  derived  myself  in  the  West  from  people  who  knew,  or  said  they  knew, 
of  the  character  of  Mr.  Bosler.  I  don't  know  whether  you  want' that  or 
not.  Jn  addition  to  that,  I  refer  you  to  witnesses  in  the  West  whose 
names  I  gave  you. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  But  this  is  the  only  specifically  documentary  evidence  you  refer  to 
in  this  connection  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  at  this  time.  I  will  say,  in  addition  to  this,  that  my  infor 
mation  on  this  particular  subject  has  been  in  part  derived  from  the 
members  of  the  old  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  and  I  refer  you  to 
them  for  that  information.  I  have  given  you  the  names  of  the  president 
and  two  secretaries  of  that  board,  among  others,  who  have  information 
on  that  point,  and  I  think  can  give  it  to  the  commission. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  you  state  that  he  is  excluded  from  participating  in  future 
contracts ;  is  that  so  If 

A.  After  these  alleged  frauds  to  which  I  referred  had  becorfle  known 
to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  they,  in  conference  with  the 
Interior  Department,  inserted  in  the  proposals  the  following  clause: 
u  No  contract  or  part  of  a  contract  will  be  permitted  to  be  assigned  or 
filled  by  other  parties  without  the  written  consent  of  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior." 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON : 

Q.  Can  the  Professor  refer  us  to  the  published  regulations  which  ex 
clude  Mr.  Bosler  from  any  participation  in  future  contracts  ? 

A.  Not  by  name,  of  course.  Secondly,  the  proposals  stated,  u  Xo  bid 
will  be  considered  from  persons  who  have  violated  the  terms  or  failed 
to  comply  with  the  requirements  of  a  former  contract,  or  who  may  have 
defaulted  in  any  bid  heretofore  made." 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Professor,  will  you  state  that  Bosler  violated  the  terms  of 
any  contract  or  tailed  to  comply  with  the  requirements  of  any  former 
contract  of  his,  or  defaulted  in  any  bid  made  by  him  I 

A.  I  will  not  say  that  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  understand  the  old 
Board  of  Commissioners  have  put  information  to  that  effect  in  their 
report,  a  reference  to  which  I  will  give  you  hereafter.  I  wish  to  read 
from  a  statement  of  a  member  of  the  old  board,  referring  in  quotation- 
marks  to  a  report  made  to  the  President  of  the  United  States  on  this 
very  point.  I  refer  to  the  report  of  the  purchasing  committee  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  made  to  the  President  of  the  United 
States  in  1873,  page  22 :  "  The  large  award  of  cattle  for  the  Sioux 
agency  it  was  thought  to  be  to  the  interest  of  the  Government  to  divide, 
giving  it  to  the  three  lowest  bidders,  giving  the  lowest  bidder  the  largest 
quantity  and  the  agency  easiest  of  access,  and  the  next  lowest  bidder  the 
next  largest  quantity  and  the  agency  next  easiest  of  access.  Subse 
quently,  without  consultation  with  your  committee,  these  contracts 
were  sub-let  or  permitted  to  be  filled  by  one  individual  whose  bids  had 
been  rejected  the  previous  year  by  your  committee  on  account  of  sus 
picion  of  fraud  in  connection  with  previous  Indian  contracts." 
6  I  F 


82 

Q.  Have  you  any  further  evidence  upon  that  point  ? 

A.  I  have  nothing  more  to  say  upon  that  point. 

Q.  You  state,  Professor,  on  your  arrival  at  the  agency  November  9, 
1874,  you  "  ascertained  that  there  had  been  no  beef  issued  for  some 
time,  and  only  seven  head  of  cattle  were  then  remaining  over  from  pre 
vious  issues."  Did  you  have  any  other  knowledge  of  the  matter  than 
what  you  have  obtained  from  others  there  ;  did  you  know  of  your  own 
knowledge  that  there  had  been  no  issue  of  beef  for  some  time  previous, 
and  did  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  only  seven  head  of  cat 
tle  were  then  remaining  over  from  previous  issues  f 

A.  I  did  not  know  of  my  own  knowledge  that  there  had  been  no 
issue  for  some  time,  because  I  was  not  there.  I  can  only  say  of  my  own 
knowledge  that  I  saw  no  cattle  there  at  the  time  when  I  arrived. 

Q.  You  say  "  these  seven  cattle  had  all  been  receipted  for  to  the  con 
tractor.77  Do  you  know  that  to  be  the  fact? 

A.  I  heard  that  fact. 

Q.  Do  you  know  it  ?  x 

A.  Not  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  heard  it  from  the  agent  himself, 
who  gave  the  receipt,  and  learned  it  from  other  sources. 

Q.  Well,  you  state  that  "  all  or  nearly  all  of  them  were  subsequently 
issued  to  the  Indians.77  Do  you  know  that  fact? 

A.  That  fact  I  have  from  the  agent  himself,  who  issued  them,  or  said 
they  were  issued. 

Q.  You  state  that  "these  were  the  cattle  examined  at  Red  Cloud's 
request  by  General  Bradley  and  his  officers.77  How  do  you  know  that ! 

A.  1  was  not  with  General  Bradley  when  he  examined  these  cattle, 
but  I  know  when  he  went  to  examine  them,  and  what  he  told  me  on  his 
return. 

Q.  When  did  you  see  these  cattle  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  these  cattle.  I  was  then  very  busy  making  prepara 
tions  for  my  expedition,  and  although  Red  Cloud  urged  me  to  go  with 
General  Bradley  to  see  these  cattle,  I  was  so  occupied  that  I  could  not 
go,  and  General  Bradley  went  with  the  other  officers  to  see  them. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  at  Red  Cloud  agency  on  that  trip  ? 

A.  Altogether  nearly  two  weeks;  from  ten  days  to  two  weeks. 

Q.  How  much  of  that  time  per  day  did  you  devote  to  the  examina 
tion  of  the  affairs  of  Red  Cloud  agency,  its  agent  and  its  supplies  ? 

A.  It  is  a  difficult  question  to  answer,  for  the  reason  that  investigat 
ing  was  not  my  special  business. 

Q.  Well,  how  much  in  the  aggregate  was  the  time  that  you  devoted 
to  that  investigation  ? 

A.  I  should  judge  four  or  five  days;  but  I  should  want  to  think  the 
matter  over  careiully  before  answering  specifically,  in  order  to  separate 
the  investigation  proper  from  my  other  matters.  I  say  my  object  was 
not  to  investigate  the  agency,  but  to  get  into  the  Bad  Lauds  south  of 
the  Black  Hills,  and  I  regarded  all  the  time  I  spent  at  the  agency  as,  in 
one  sense,  lost.  I  was  among  the  Indians  a  good  deal  with  reference  to 
appeasing  them,  so  that  I  might  go  forward  with  my  expedition,  and  ia 
this  way  I  learned  a  great  many  things  that  I  could  not  have  learned  so 
well  had  I  been  directly  engaged  in  investigating,  for  the  reason  that  the 
agent  and  his  employes  had  made  no  effort  to  prepare  for  my  visit,  and 
for  that  reason  I  thought  I  saw  things  as  they  really  were.  Had  it 
been  known  in  advance  that  I  was  coming  to  investigate  the  agency  I 
am  confident  I  would  have  seen  much  less. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  facilitate  your  object  with  the  Indians,  getting  their 
consent  for  you  to  go  to  the  Bad  Lands? 


83 

A.  He  attempted  to  do  so  from  the  start,  and,  I  think,  meant  to  do 
the  best  he  could,  bat  he  made  a  mistake  in  the  first  council  to  which 
he  called  the  Indians  with  reference  to  my  expedition,  which  seriously 
interfered  with  my  getting  away.  I  came  prepared  with  sufficient 
escort,  I  supposed,  for  my  expedition,  my  order  for  escort  and  outfit 
corning  directly  from  the  commanding  officer  of  the  Department,  General 
Ord.  I  intended  to  have  gone  by  the  agency  without  stopping,  but  on 
account  of  the  flag-staff  affair,  which  occurred  while  I  was  on  my  way 
there,  I  feared  trouble  from  the  Indians.  On  arriving  at  the  agency  I, 
therefore,  went  with  General  Bradley,  the  commander  of  the  Black 
Hills  district,  and  called  on  the  agent  with  reference  to  my  expedition, 
stating  to  him  fully  what  my  object  was  and  where  I  wished  to  go. 
He  stated  that  he  feared  the  Indians  would  not  allow  rne  to  cross  the 
White  River;  that  they  were  very  much  excited  in  consequence  of  the 
flag-staff  affair,  and  the  fact  of  the  miners  being  in  the  Black  Hills.  He 
said  he  would  find  out  at  once  whether  there  would  be  serious  objec 
tion,  and  immediately  called  a  council  of  chiefs  and  warriors,  and  laid 
the  case  before  them.  This  he  did  in  such  an  awkward  way,  as  I  con 
sidered,  that  a  strong  opposition  was  at  once  manifested  by  the  Indians. 
His  advice  was  that  I  should  take  no  soldiers  with  me,  but  only  a  few 
Indians  as  escort.  This,  of  course,  was  impossible,  as  I  required  wagons 
and  many  other  things  for  my  expedition  which  Indians  could  not 
look  after.  I  told  him  I  must  have  an  escort  to  look  after  my  wagons, 
tents,  and  commissaries,  and  assist  me  in  my  work.  Then  he  said  I 
had  better  take  as  few  troops  as  possible  and  an  Indian  escort.  I  think 
it  was  in  consequence  of  his  action  at  this  council  and  his  advice,  how 
ever  well  intended,  that  my  expedition  was  delayed,  and  eventually  we 
were  brought  into  considerable  trouble  and  danger. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask,  in  connection  with  that,  what  you  finally  did  to  pro 
cure  the  consent  of  the  Indians  for  you  to  go  to  the  Bad  Lands! 

A.  I  gave  them  presents  and  a  feast,  and  talked  with  a  great  many  of 
them. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  of  them  with  you  ? 

A.  I  tried  to  take  twelve  or  fifteen  with  me.  I  engaged  them  at  the 
first  council,  and  offered  them  the  price  the  agent  said  would  be  amply 
sufficient,  and  supposed  they  would  be  ready  at  the  time;  but  the  more 
the  Indians  heard  about  the  expedition  and  talked  about  it  among 
themselves  the  more  suspicious  they  became,  thinking  I  wanted  to  go 
to  the  Black  Hills  for  gold,  and  they  could  not  understand  why  I 
wanted  to  go  so  far  on  such  an  expedition  merely  to  get  bones.  They 
thought  there  must  have  been  other  reasons ;  at  all  events  they  were 
suspicious  and  opposed  to  it.  Finding  the  first  attempt  to  take  an  escort 
of  Indians  with  a  number  of  troops  failed,  when  we  were  driven  back, 
as  I  have  already  stated  to  you,  I  then  tried  to  obtain  another  escort. 
Sitting  Bull  was  to  have  gone  as  leader  of  the  first  escort,  taking  with 
him  ten  or  twelve  Indians.  The  second  time  I  made  an  attempt  1  tried 
to  get  SwordT  Red  Cloud's  son-in-law,  to  take  an  escort,  and  at  one  time 
he  stated  he  would  go ;  but  eventually  that  fell  through. 

Q.  Did  you  finally  take  any  Indians  with  you  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  obtain  their  consent  by  making  them  presents? 

A.  Presents,  as  I  said,  a  feast,  and  promising  to  bring  their  com 
plaints  to  the  Great  Father;  their  nominal  consent  merely,  I  will  say, 
because  they  were  opposed  to  it  to  the  last,  and  I  had  to  slip  away  quietly 
without  any  Indians  whatever. 

Q.  In  your  statement  there  is  a  certificate  in  reference  to  those  seven 


84 

head  of  cattle,  signed  by  General  Bradley  and  others.  Did  you  solicit 
from  them  that  certificate  ? 

A.  I  sent  General  Bradley  a  telegram  asking  him  to  give  me  some 
information  on  that  point  of  what  they  saw,  but  no  intimation  in  any 
way  as  to  what  it  should  be,  nor  anything  of  that  kind.  The  original 
copy  of  the  certificate  I  have  here. 

Q.  Did  you  communicate  with  anybody  else  besides  General  Bradley 
on  the  subject  of  obtaining  that  certificate? 

A.  I  think  not.  I  don't  remember.  I  think  I  did  not  communicate 
with  other  parties.  I  merely  sent  a  telegram  to  General  Bradley,  as  I 
remember  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  either  General  Bradley,  Captain  Mix,  or 
Lieutenant  Hay  ever  weighed  a  beef  steer? 

A.  I  am  very  sure  they  have.     I  consider  General  Bradley 

Q.  You  are  sure  they  did  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  either  of  them  ever  weighed  a  beef  steer 
or  saw  one  weighed  ? 

A.  I  can't  say  positively  that  I  ever  saw  them  present  when  that 
event  took  place,  but  I  know  perfectly  well  that  General  Bradley  and 
Captain  Mix  have  been  in  the  West  a  good  many  years  and  have  had 
to  do  with  cattle  a  great  deal,  and  their  opinion  upon  that  point  of  cat 
tle  is  entitled  to  great  weight.  I  will  here  say  that  I  think  a  person 
familiar  with  cattle,  who  has  had  a  great  deal  of  experience  in  buying 
cattle,  can  approximate  so  closely  to  the  weight  of  a  particular  steer 
that  there  can  be  but  a  very  slight  error  in  his  judgment;  and  I  con 
sider  both  of  those  officers,  from  their  experience,  especially  good  judges 
on  that  point. 

Q.  You  consider  them  as  good  judges,  if  neither  of  them  had  ever 
weighed  a  beef  steer  or  saw  one  weighed  in  all  their  lives  ? 

A.  I  hardly  know  how  to  answer  that  question  properly. 

Q.  Y^ou  say  you  consider  them  as  good  judges  of  the  weight  of  cattle. 
Xow,  if  neither  one  of  them  ever  weighed  a  beef  steer  or  saw  one  weighed 
in  their  lives,  would  you  still  consider  them  good  judges  of  the  weight 
of  a  steer  ? 

A.  I  would,  under  certain  circumstances.  For  instance,  an  Army  officer, 
a  commissary  for  example,  might  never  weigh  a  steer  or  see  one  weighed, 
and  yet  might  be  receiving  beef  and  have  the  documents  showing  the 
weight,  and  examining  the  cattle,  and  in  that  way  form  a  good  opinion 
without  himself  actually  weighing  or  seeing  the  process  of  weighing 
going  on.  That  is  a  matter  of  'experience. 

Q.  Can  you  tell,  Professor,  whether  the  cattle  for  the  Army  are  pur 
chased  by  gross  weight  or  net  weight  ? 

A.  They  are  usually  purchased  by  net  weight,  but  possibly,  at  times, 
by  gross  weight.  1  am  not  sure  on  that  point. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  an  instance  in  the  whole  United  States  service 
where  they  are  purchased  by  gross  weight? 

A.  I  meant  to  state  in  my  answer  that  I  know  there  are  purchases  by 
net  weight,  but  whether  they  are  purchased  by  gross  weight  in  some 
particular  cases  I  can't  say.  I  have  myself  seen  Army  officers  purchase 
cattle  by  gross  weight. 

Q.  Did  they  purchase  them  by  gross  weight,  or  did  they  purchase 
them  on  foot  at  what  they7  would  net  ? 


85 

A.  I  mean  by  that  statement  of  mine  that  they  purchased  the  cattle 
on  foot. 

Q.  Whether  they  bought  them  at  what  would  be  their  net  weight  or 
their  gross  weight  you  don't  know  ? 

A.  As  I  understood  it,  it  was  buying  their  gross  weight.  That  was 
as  I  understood  it. 

Q,  Might  you  not  have  been  mistaken  about  that  ? 

A.  In  some  cases  I  could  not  have  been  mistaken. 

Q.  Did  you  yourself  ever  weigh  any  beef  steers  on  foot? 

A.  I  think  I  have.    I  certaiulv  have  seen  them  weighed. 

Q.  Whereat0? 

A.  In  Western  New  York.  I  have  no  definite  knowledge  or  informa 
tion  derived  from  that.  That  is  of  no  value  ;  I  merely  mention  the  fact. 

Q.  Saw  them  weighed  in  Western  New  York  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  weigh  or  see  weighed  any  of  those  cattle  on  the  range 
up  in  the  North  Platte  country  $ 

A.  I  never  did. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  weight  of  a  beeve  when  he  has  been 
kept  in  the  lot  for  twelve  hours,  and  when  he  is  weighed  directly  off 
"  grass  and  water,"  as  the  herders  term  it? 

A.  No  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  here  that  "  the  Indian  Bureau  immediately  endeav 
ored  to  destroy  the  effect  of  this  testimony,  and  the  method  adopted  so 
well  illustrates  the  'manner  in  which  that  Office  receives  information 
reflecting  on  the  management  of  its  affairs  that  it  is  worthy  of  record 
here."  Do  you  mean  by  that  that  the  Indian  -Bureau  is  unwilling  to 
receive  information  of  any  mismanagement  in  its  affairs  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  mean  by  that  ? 

A.  I  do,  sir;  I  judge  that  from  my  experience  with  the  Bureau. 

Q.  In  how  many  instances  had  you  given  the  Bureau  information  of 
its  affairs  1 

A.  I  carne  to  the  Indian  Bureau  first  with  the  complaints  of  Red 
Cloud.  That  is  once.  I  subsequently  talked  over  these  same  matters 
at  the  Indian  Bureau,  but  in  a  more  general  way.  I  judge  also  from 
what  I  learned  from  those  who  have  likewise  given  unfavorable  infor 
mation  to  the  Bureau. 

Q.  Yrou  state  that  you  thought  from  your  experience  with  the  Indian 
Bureau  that  that  Bureau  did  not  wish  to  receive  information.  Your 
personal  experience  was  in  offering  information  twice  f 

A.  I  refer  especially  to  my  first  interview  with  Commissioner  Smith. 
When  I  came  to  him  first  with  the  entire  complaints  about  the  lied 
Cloud  agency,  I  supposed  he  was  the  proper  person.  I  came  to  him  in 
perfect  good  faith,  and  I  expected  that  he  would  receive  the  information 
kindly  and  profit  by  it. 

Q.  I  was  only  inquiring  as  to  the  number  of  times,  so  as  to  get  at 
what  your  experience  was.  You  state  that  you  arrived  at  your  conclu 
sion  from  your  experience ;  now  you  say  you  gave  information  twice? 

A.  I  did  not  mean  my  own  experience  alone.  AVheu  I  wrote  that 
statement  I  had  additional  information  on  that  point. 

Q.  Did  you  give  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  the  information 
that  is  contained  in  this  pamphlet  at  the  time  you  first  went  to  see  him  ? 

A.  Not  all  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  give  it  to  him  when  you  called  to  see  him  the  second  time  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 


86 

Q.  Did  you  give  it  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior? 

A.  I  did  Dot.  1  gave  both  of  them  some  information  though,  and 
especially  the  Indian  Commissioner,  to  whom  I  went  first  of  all,  even 
before  I  went  to  the  President,  because  I  thought  the  Indian  Commis 
sioner  was  the  proper  person  to  receive  complaints,  and  it  was  an  act  of 
courtesy  to  go  to  him  before  I  went  to  the  President. 

Q.  Well,  you  state  that  "the  same  method  had  been  employed  to 
weaken  the  force  of  the  facts  I  had  laid  before  it  about  affairs  at  the 
same  agency.'7  What  facts  were  those  that  you  had  laid  before  it? 

A.  The  first  statement  that  I  made  to  the  Indian  Commissioner  in 
April  last. 

Q.  What  was  done  to  weaken  the  force  of  the  facts  you  laid  before 
him  ? 

A.  On  page  33  of  rny  pamphlet  I  give  the  explanation,  published  May 
3,  from  the  Indian  Bureau  to  meet  my  statement  about  the  flour,  and 
so  on,  namely  : 

It  is  stated  at  the  Indian  Bureau,  with  reference  to  the  complainls  concerning  sup 
plies  furnished  to  the  Indians  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency,  that  all  the  flour  seuAhere 
was  inspected  at  Cheyenne,  by  Major  Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United 
States  Army,  and  passed  by  him  as  equal  to  the  accepted  sample.  It  is,  therefore, 
claimed  that  the  samples  of  inferior  flour  brought  here  by  Professor  Marsh,  at  the 
request  of  Red  Cloud,  were  of  some  old  issue,  or,  like  the  specimens  of  sugar  and 
tobacco,  had  been  damaged  by  exposure  to  the  weather  while  in  the  Indians'  pos 
session. 

That  statement  was  sent  out  by  the  Indian  Bureau  to  counteract  my 
first  complaint,  I  will  say  frankly 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  that  a  matter  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  have  information  that  that  was  sent  out  from  the  Indian  .Bureau. 
I  was  going  to  explain  that. 

Q.  \ou  have  heard  Commissioner  Smith  deny  it? 

A.  I  want  to  speak  of  that.  I  don't  say  Commissioner  Smith  sent 
that  dispatch  ;  it  should  read,  "  the  Acting  Commissioner,"  whoever  he 
was,  in  charge  of  the  Indian  Bureau.  Commissioner  Smith  informed  me 
that  he  was  away  at  the  time  ;  therefore,  I  say,  frankly,  I  do  not  hold 
him  responsible  for  that.  Commissioner  Smith  himself  stated  to  me 
previous  to  the  time  this  dispatch  was  sent  almost  the  exact  words. 
The  only  difference  that  I  can  see  in  this  dispatch  as  sent  and  what 
Commissioner  Smith  said  to  me  in  person,  is  that  in  the  dispatch  it 
says  "All  the  flour  sent  there  was  inspected  at  Cheyenne,  by  Major 
Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United  States  Army,"  while  in 
Commissioner  Smith's  statement  to  me  he  said  the  flour  was  inspected 
by  an  "Army  officer,"  without  mentioning  his  name.  In  every  other 
respect  the  words  to  that  effect  were  stated  to  me  by  Commissioner 
Smith. 

Q.  Do  you  now  state  that  that  dispatch  was  untrue  ? 

A.  I  do ;  it  is  untrue,  as  I  understand  the  facts. 

Q.  Well,  if  the  fact  be  that  there  were  twenty-seven  sacks  of  flour  left 
at  Cheyenne  which  had  been  rejected  by  the  inspector  and  were  sent  to 
lied  Cloud  through  mistake,  and  a  sample  retained,  would  this  dispatch 
still  be  untrue  ? 

A.  This  dispatch  states  distinctly  that  "  all  the  flour  sent  there," 
namely,  to  Bed  Cloud  agency,  "  was  inspected  at  Cheyenne,  by  Major 
Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United  Stages  Army,  and 
passed  by  him  as  equal  to  the  accepted  sample."  I  say  that  is  not  true. 
1  base  that  statement  on  the  statement  of  Major  Long  himself,  who  in- 


87 

formed  me  that  he  rejected  a  portion  of  the  flour,  and  when  I  made  that 
statement  I  made  it  on  his  authority,  the  authority  of  the  man  who  had 
rejected  the  flour  as  inspector.  In  addition,  I  knew  the  fact  that  a 
large  amount  of  flour  had  gone  through  to  the  agency  before  Major 
Long  was  appointed  inspector,  and  that  this  flour  was  not  inspected,  as 
required,  at  Cheyenne. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  you  knew  or  had  been  informed  ? 
A.  I  had  information. 

By  the  CHAJRMAN  : 

Q.  Then  I  understand  you  to  say  now  that  all  the  flour  that  went  to 
Red  Cloud  agency  was  not  inspected  by  Major  Long. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  say  it  was  not,  and  that  the  Indian  Bureau  knew  that 
fact  when  the  dispatch  was  sent. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Can  you  say  you  know  the  last  proposition  as  of  your  own  knowl 
edge,  that  the  Indian  Bureau  had  knowledge  of  the  fact  when  that 
dispatch  was  written  ?  I  want  to  be  frank  with  you,  because  we  have 
some  facts  in  our  possession  that  you  are  not  aware  of,  to«the  effect  that 
some  flour  which  had  been  inspected  at  Omaha,  by  a  United  States  in 
spector  named  Barclay  White,  had  already  gone  on  to  Cheyenne. 
Some  portion  of  that  flour,  for  all  we  know,  may  have  gone  to  the 
agency,  but  Major  Long  rejected  some  of  that ;  so  that,  though  it  was 
not  inspected  by  Major  Long,  it  still  may  have  been  inspected  by  an 
other  United  States  inspector. 

A.  I  refer  for  that  statement  to  the  documents  on  file  in  the  Indian 
Bureau. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Then,  from  the  statement  you  make  here,  I  take  it  you  mean  to 
say  the  Indian  Bureau  did  not  believe  all  the  statements  made  to  them 
in  reference  to  mismanagement  of  Indian  affairs? 

A.  I  could  not  say  positively  about  that. 

Q.  Did  you  refer  to  this  flour  dispatch?  I  mean  the  information 
which  you  gave  them — whether  they  believed  what  you  told  them  or 
not? 

A.  That  I  cannot  say ;  that  is  for  them  to  say. 

Q.  Well,  when  you  spoke  generally  of  their  method  of  dealing  with 
in-formation  which  had  been  given  them,  did  you  mean  by  that  your 
general  belief  of  what  is  told  them  about  mismanagement  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  don't  say  that  they  do  not  believe  what  is  told  them,  but  that 
they  don't  receive  information  kindly,  and,  so  far  as  I  can  learn,  are 
much  more  apt  to  seem  indignant  with  the  person  who  brings  the  in 
formation  rather  than  the  person  who  is  alleged  to  have  committed 
the  mismanagement  or  fraud.  My  experience  with  the  Interior  Depart 
ment  and  Indian  Bureau  goes  to  confirm  that  plain  statement. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  that  is  the  opinion  you  formed  '? 

A.  From  my  own  experience  of  the  Bureau  and  the  Department  and 
what  I  learn  from  others  who  have  been  so  unfortunate  as  to  give  un 
favorable  information  to  the  Interior  Department  and  the  Indian  Bureau. 

Q.  Professor  Marsh,  we  are  obliged  to  take  your  statement.  It  is 
hardly  possible  for  us  to  say  how  they  may  have  been  influenced  by 


88 

other  people ;  therefore,  when  you  refer  us  to  other  people,  you  give  us 
no  earthly  means  of  testing  the  value  of  your  information. 

A.  I  refer  to  special  individuals  who  have  given  this  information,  and 
which  has  not  been  kindly  received ;  you  can  call  those  persons. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Professor,  was  there  anything  at  all  offensive  in  the  manner  in 
which  you  brought  this  matter  to  the  attention  of  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  I  think  no  one  would  say  that  my  previous  interview  with  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  was  other  than  a  pleasant  one,  and  I 
had  only  the  kindest  feelings  toward  him.  I  came  to- him  with  the  firm 
belief  and  expectation  that  the  information  I  had  to  give  would  be  kindly 
received,  and  that  I  was  really  doing  him  a  favor  in  calling  his  attention 
to  mismanagement  in  his  own  Department.  I  was  greatly  amazed  at  the 
reception  I  received,  and  it  was  that  reception  that  prevented  me  from 
giving  all  the  information  I  then  had.  Had  he  received  me  kindly,  had 
he  thanked  me,  or  in  any  way  intimated  that  he  was  willing  to  receive 
these  complaints,  I  should  have  given  him  every  fact  in  my  possession 
and  put  all  my  information  and  documents  into  his  hands. 

By  the  pn  AIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Professor,  I  want  to  ask  you  just  exactly  what  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  said  to  you  ? 

A.  What  he  might  have  meant  by  it  ? 

Q.  Tell  us  just  what  he  said. 

A.  You  wili  find  in  my  testimony  given  in  New  York  the  full  account 
of  that  interview,  and  I  refer  you  to  that. 

Q.  He  said  nothing  more  than  you  stated  there  in  your  testimony  in 
New  York — said  nothing  more  to  induce  this  impression  which  you  say 
was  made  upon  your  mind. 

A.  Nothing  farther  in  words,  perhaps;  I  won't  be  positive  about  that; 
but  it  was  the  general  manner. 

Q.  What  was  there  about  the  manner  ?  Explain  that  manner  of  his,  if 
you  can. 

Q.  I  think  that  is  "given  fully  in  my  testimony  in  New  York,  as  I 
remember  the  testimony;  I  have  nothing  to  add  to  it. 

Q.  You  may  not  have  anything  to  add  to  it,  but  we  may  be  desirous 
to  know  something  more  aborit  it,  in  order  that  we  may  judge  whether 
your  conclusions  are  correct  or  not.  It  is  necessary  for  us  to  have  the 
tacts.  We  would  like  to  know  what  the  manner  of  the  Commissioner 
was,  when  you  made  this  communication  to  him,  and  what  he  said  to 
you. 

A.  I  don't  think  I  could  make  it  clearer  than  it  is  in  the  testimony. 
After  you  have  looked  it  over,  if  there  is  any  further  explanation  that  you 
want,  I  can  give  it. 

Q.  I  will  state  that  I  looked  it  over,  with  that  view,  and  I  thought 
perhaps  you  might  want  to  add  something  further  to  it,  if  you  desire  to 
satisfy  the  minds  of  the  commissioners  that  your  conclusion  was  the 
only  one  that  a  man  could  come  to  under  the  circumstances. 

A.  I  will  look  it  over  again  and  consider  that  point. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  You  have  just  now  stated,  in  reference  to  this  dispatch,  that,  be 
fore  the  dispatch  was  sent  Mr.  Smith  had  substantially  stated  to  you 
the  same  thing,  with  the  slight  modification  which  you  have  mentioned. 
Now  1  ask  whether  he  did  not  say  to  you  that  the  samples  of  interior  flour 


89 

brought  there  by  you,  at  the  request  of  Eed  Cloud,  were  samples  of 
some  old  issue,  and  were  not  fair  samples  of  the  flour  being  delivered 
that  year? 

A.  He  did  state  that. 

Q.  Did  he  also  say,  "The  specimens  of  sugar  and  tobacco  had  been 
damaged  by  exposure  to  the  weather  while  in  the  Indians'  possession," 
in  that  conversation  with  you?  Did  he  claim  that,  or  say  that  he 
thought  it  might  be  so? 

A.  E  took  up  each  one  of  those  points  in  ray  testimony  in  New  York. 

Q.  No;  but  when  you  are  saying  you  were  met  unkindly,  I  want  to 
ascertain  whether  it  was  manifest  urikiudness  toward  you,  or  whether 
the  Commissioner  stated  the  reasons  for  not  accepting  your  statement  as 
true. 

A.  He  gave  essentially  this  statement  here. 

Q.  Did  he  say,  or  in  substance  intimate,  that  he  believed  Red  Cloud 
and  Eed  Dog,  and  those  other  Indians  with  whom  you  had  been  talk 
ing,  had  misled  or  deceived  you? 

A.  He  implied  it. 

Q.  Well,  now,  Professor,  did  he  not  substantially  deny  some  of  the 
statements  which  you  had  already  made? 

A.  I  don't  think  he  did. 

Q.  Did  he  not  deny  any  of  the  statements  you  had  made? 

A.  I  think  he  did  not. 

Q.  Was  or  was  not  that  all  you  saw  on  the  part  of  the  Commissioner 
indicating  hostility  to  you? 

A.  That  was  only  a  small  part  of  it. 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  else  he  said  ? 

A.  I  will  say  that,  in  addition  to  the  samples  which  I  showed  him, 
and  which  I  did  not  consider  of  any  very  great  importance  in  themselves, 
I  gave  him  a  great  deal  of  information  touching\,the  mismanagement  of 
affairs,  and  I  don't  think  he  received  it  any  more  favorably  than  he  did 
the  other. 

Q.  Did  he  indicate  to  you  by  his  manner  or  his  words  that  he  was  not 
satisfied  of  the  truth  of  your  statement? 

A.  As  I  remember  the  interview,  the  impression  left  on  my  mind  is 
that  it  was  much  more  irritation  at  having  the  complaint  made  than 
any  doubt. 

Q.  I  think,  Professor,  when  you  make  such  a  statement  as  that  you 
depart  from  the  legitimate  purposes  of  answering  the  question  and  are 
arguing  the  case  somewhat.  You  say  you  think  he  was  more  anxious  to 
cover  up  the  frauds  than  to  punish  the  offender.  My  inquiry  is  simply 
whether  the  Commissioner  appeared  to  doubt  the  truth  of  the  statement 
which  you  had  heard,  or  said  he  doubted  it,  or  gave  you  to  understand 
he  doubted  it,  either  by  his  words  or  manner. 

A.  I  think  he  implied  that,  as  I  have  said. 

Q.  Now,  you  would  not  claim  that,  if  Mr.  Smith  really  doubted  the 
statement  by  reason  of  other  information  which  he  had,  if  that  were  the 
truth,  it  would  be  fair  to  say  that  he  was  rather  seeking  to  cover  up  the 
wrong  than  to  get  at  the  truth  and  punish  the  offender  ? 

A.  It  was  not  any  doubt,  stated  or  implied,  in  regard  to  the  charac 
ter  of  the  rations,  but  the  whole  tenor  of  the  interview. 

Q.  Then  I  will  ask  you  whether  you  felt,  when  you  left  the  room,  that 
Commissioner  Smith  was  not  willing  to  receive  the  statements  you 
made  as  the  truth. 

A.  I  don't  think  I  felt  that.  Possibly  he  thought  I  had  placed  too 
much  reliance  in  Red  Cloud's  word,  while  in  fact  I  considered  it  of  very 


90 

little  importance  then,  and  very  little  now ;  but  I  don't  think  he  was 
any  more  anxious  for  information  when  I  left  the  subject  of  rations  and 
spoke  about  the  subject  of  annuity  goods,  which  I  did  very  fully. 

Q.  The  samples  of  flour,  sugar,  and  tobacco  that  you  brought  here 
would  not  become  evidence  of  fraud  or  wrong  if  Red  Cloud's  statement 
was  not  true.  Now,  if  neither  you  nor  Mr.  Smith  believed  Red  Cloud, 
there  would  be  some  reason  for  both  of  you  doubting  whether  these 
samples  should  guide  the  Department.  Did  you  feel  at  that  time  that 
Red  Cloud  had  possibly  misled  you  ? 

A.  Not  in  regard  to  the  whole  matter. 

Q.  In  regard  to  the  samples,  did  you  think  that  possibly  he  had 
deceived  you  ? 

A.  I  will  state  to  the  Commission  distinctly,  that  I  do  not  vouch  for  these 
individual  samples ;  but  I  believed  then,  and  I  believe  now,  that  the  flour 
and  tobacco  I  saw  there,  that  Red  Cloud  gave  me,  were  fair  samples  of 
those  that  I  saw  issued.  I  believe  that  the  coffee  was  absolutely  issued 
to  Red  Cloud.  Whether  he  may  have  picked  out  some  bad  grains,  I 
could  not  say.  If  so,  then  it  might  not  be  a  fair  sample. 

Q.  Is  there  not  some  evidence  that  Red  Cloud  had  done  that  with 
reference  to  the  coffee '? 

A.  I  think  that  possible.  I  don't  think  at  that  time  I  had  considered 
the  matter  very  carefully,  because  I  was  very  busy. 

Q.  Thus  far,  professor,  you  have  not  favored  us  with  those  samples. 

A.  I  have  them  at  my  hotel,  and  will  bring  them  down. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Passing  on  from  that,  you  state,  Professor,  at  the  bottom  of  page 
23  of  your  pamphlet,  that,  on  the  morning  of  November  14,  while  you 
were  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  'l  Mr.  Bosler,  one  of  the  contractors,  brought 
to  the  agency  a  herd  of  several  hundred  head  of  Texas  cattle,  the  first 
that  had  been  received  Tor  some  weeks  previous.  This  lot  was  accepted 
by  the  agent  and  receipted  for,  but  he  only  weighed  a  portion  of  the 
herd/'  Did  you  see  him  weigh  any  of  them  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  them  weighed  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  any  of  them  weighed  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Then  how  do  you  know  that  he  actually  weighed  a  portion  of 
them  ? 

A.  I  have  his  statement  for  them  in  the  presence  of  Bishop  Hare,  a 
written  document,  which  I  shall  submit  as  evidence,  with  Bishop  Hare's 
signature. 

Q.  You  state  here  that  you  "have  seen  many  hundreds  of  herds  at 
various  points  between  this  agency  and  Southern  Kansas,"  and  have 
purchased  many  animals  for  the  use  of  your  expedition.  Did  you  ever 
weigh  any  of  those  cattle  purchased  on  tlie  foot  f 

A.  1  never  did;  I  estimated  them,  as  I  stated  a  few  moments  ago. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  that  ''all  the  cattle  in  this  herd  were  wretchedly 
gaunt  and  thin,  and  the  majority  of  them  were  small,  many  being  year 
lings."  When  you  say  that,  do  you  mean  to  say  that  the  cattle  were 
poor  in  flesh  ? 

A.  Certainly  poor  for  that  time  of  year — absolutely  poor.  They  were 
poor  in  flesh ;  they  were  not  what  I  would  regard  as  fat  cattle. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  majority  of  them  were  small,  and  many  were 
yearlings.  How  many  yearlings  were  there? 


91 

A.  I  should  have  to  make  an  estimate  of  that.  There  were  a  good 
many,  as  I  remember. 

Q.  How  many  would  you  say  ? 

A.  I  should  want  to  consider  the  matter  before  I  gave  a  definite  an 
swer  to  that  to  be  perfectly  correct.  There  were  a  good  many.  1  saw 
them  as  they  came  out  and  as  they  went  by.  I  think  that  would  be 
fair 

Q.  Will  you  be  able  to  give  us  a  fair  approximation  of  the  number  of 
yearlings  that  were  in  that  herd? 

A.  I  don't  know  how  near  I  could  come  to  it,  but  I  should  say  fifty 
would  perhaps  be  an  approximate  number. 

Q.  Now,  can  you  say  that  those  yearlings  were  weighed  and  counted 
and  receipted  for  by  the  agent  ? 

A.  I  cannot  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  cattle  of  that  herd  do  you  say  were  not 
weighed  ? 

A.  On  that  point  I  can  only  give  you  ray  opinion,  except  what  Agent 
Saville  said  himself  to  Bishop  Hare,  viz,  that  some  that  were  wild,  a 
small  number;  he  did  not  say  how  many.  I  think  it  is  a  small  num 
ber.  I  have  the  exact  memorandum  of  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  think  he  says  a  few. 

Professor  MARSH.  "  Some  few  that  were  wild  he  did  not  weigh,  but 
estimated." 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  mode  of  weighing  cattle  at  the 
corral  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  I  think  you  said  you  never  saw  them  weighed  ? 

A.  Never  saw  them  weighed,  but  I  saw 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  fact,  or  do  you  know  that  cattle  which  cannot  be 
driven  on  the  scales  are  usually  the  strongest  and  largest,  rather  than 
the  smallest  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  They  would  be  largest  as  a  general  rule ;  that  is,  if  the  reason 
why  they  were  not  weighed  was  that  they  were  wild  and  vicious. 

Q.  You  say  a  large  number  of  the  cattle  in  that  delivery  were  what  is 
called  by  cattle-men  "scalawags."  How  many  scalawags  were  there? 

A.  I  have  never  had  my  attention  called  exactly  to  the  number  be 
fore.  But  there  were  a  large  number  of  them.  Perhaps 

Q.  Two  hundred  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  should  say  not? 

Q.  One  hundred  ? 

A.  Less  than  one  hundred. 

Q.  Fifty? 

A.  I  should  say  that  would  be  nearer  right. 

Q.  Do  you  say  there  were  fifty  f 

A.  I  do  not  say  there  were  fifty,  but  that  would  be  near  it. 

Q.  Can  you  say  that  there  were  twenty-five  of  them  that  were  scala 
wags  ? 

A.  There  were  forty  or  fifty  that  I  should  regard  as  scalawags. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  scalawags? 

A.  That  is  a  technical  expression  in  the  West  among  cattle-dealers. 
The  term   "  scalawag,"  as  I  understand  it,  may  apply  to  two  or  three 
different  kinds  of  cattle.     For  example,  an  animal  that  was  stunted  and 
not  strictly  a  healthy  animal,  I  would  call  a  scalawag.     An  animal 
was  crippled,  and  for  that  reason  could  not  move  around  so  as  to  get 


\ 


92 

as  much  food  as  the  others,  and  for  that  reason  was  poor,  I  would  call 
a  scalawag.  Thirdly,  cattle  that  are  so  old  that  their  teeth  are  poor, 
and  for  this  reason  do  not  get  enough  food  to  keep  them  in  good  condi 
tion,  I  would  also  call  scalawags.  And  I  saw  some  of  that  kind  of  cat 
tle  in  that  herd.  There  were  forty  or  fifty  of  that  kind  of  cattle  in  that 
herd  as  I  judge  from  what  I  saw. 

Q.  How  many  of  that  forty  or  fifty  were  of  the  stunted  kind  ? 

A.  I  could  hardly  form  an  estimate  of  that. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  of  the  kind  that  had  no  teeth  ? 

A.  That  I  could  not  form  an  estimate  of,  because  of  the  rapidity  with 
which  the  thing  went  on.  I  could  not  form  an  estimate  of  that. 

Q.  Then  you  say  that  there  was  another  class  of  cattle  that  were 
weak  and  decrepid.  How  many  of  that  kind,  in  addition  to  the  scala 
wags  ? 

A.  I  class  those  under  the  scalawags.  Well,  I  certainly  saw  a  dozen 
of  that  kiud. 

Q.  Weak  and  decrepid  ? 

A.  Weak  and  limping,  and  apparently  not  well.  Possibly  some  of 
the  cattle  that  limped  might  have  been  injured  in  the  scrimmage  in 
getting  them  on  the  scales,  so  that  I  would  not  say  exactly  that  because 
an  animal  limped  it  was  a  scalawag. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Bosler  got  those  cattle? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  another  herd  of  such  cattle  as  those  at  that  sea 
son  of  the  year? 

A.  It  appeared  to  me  to  be  the  poorest  herd  of  that  kind  that  I  had 
ever  seen.  I  state  that  in  my  pamphlet.  As  to  that  particular  issue,  it 
is  due  to  the  herders  that  I  should  say  that  there  had  been  a  little  snow 
(not  a  severe  storm,  but  a  little  snow)  which  had  made  the  coats  of  the 
cattle  rough,  but  independent  of  that  they  were  poor  cattle. 

Q.  How  close  were  you  to  those  cattle? 

A.  I  stood  at  the  left  end  of  the  gate  where  the  cattle  came  out,  and 
saw  them  all — every  head.  Part  of  the  time  I  was  down  the  line  where 
the  lines  are  wider,  and  saw  the  cattle  there ;  but  I  think  I  can  say  I 
saw  every  head  of  cattle  that  came  out  of  that  corral.  I  don't  think  I 
could  be  mistaken  as  to  the  character  of  those  cattle,  making  every  pos 
sible  allowance  for  the  snow-storm  that  preceded  their  delivery,  and  for 
the  fact,  which  is  stated  on  the  next  page  of  my  pamphlet,  that  they  had 
been  driven  forty-eight  hours  with  little  food  and  sleep.  That  would,  of 
course,  make  them  gaunt  and  make  them  look  poorer  than  they  really 
would  under  favorable  circumstances,  if  they  had  been  well  fed  and  the 
weather  had  been  fine. 

Q.  Did  you  count  that  herd  of  cattle? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Can  you  say  that  there  were  not  the  number  of  cattle  mentioned 
in  the  receipt  of  the  agent,  exclusive  of  .the  yearlings  that  were  there? 

A.  I  could  not  absolutely.  I  inquired  at  the  time  of  some  one,  I  do 
not  recollect  whom  now,  whether  allowance  was  made  for  them,  and 
they  said  not. 

Q.  What  time  of  day  was  it  when  you  went  down  to  the  corral  ? 

A.  I  was  about  two  o'clock. 

Q.  Who  went  down  with  you  ? 

A.  Major  Burt. 

Q.  They  were  there  weighing  the  cattle  when  you  got  there  ? 

A.  There  were  no  cattle  weighed  that  day  after  I  got  there.  I  do  not 
think  the  cattle  were  all  weighed. 


•    93 

Q.  Were  you  not  informed  that  the  cattle  had  been  weighed  before 
you  came  there "? 

A.  I  think  so,  but  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  Didn't  you  meet  Dr.  Saville,  and  the  clerk,  and  several  other  gen 
tlemen  coining  back  from  the  corral  to  the  agency  when  you  were  going 
from  the  agency  to  the  corral  ?  Didn't  you  meet  some  gentleman,  who 
told  you  that  the  cattle  had  been  weighed  ? 

A.  I  did  not.  Not  a  word  was  said  at  that  time  about  it.  Dr.  Saville 
told  me  that  he  would  issue  cattle  that  afternoon,  and  that  when  he 
went  from  the  agency  I  had  better  go  down  immediately,  so  as  to  be 
present  and  see  the  whole  show,  which  I  had  heard  a  great  deal  about 
and  was  anxious  to  see.  When  Saville  came  out  of  the  agency  and 
started  down,  I  immediately  got  on  my  horse,  and  Major  Bart  did  the 
same,  and  we  rode  down  after  the  agent,  the  agent  being  some  little  dis 
tance  ahead.  We  rode  down  with  quite  a  large  baud  of  Indians — right 
among  the  Indians.  The  agent  left  the  agency  just  before  I  started. 
His  starting  was  the  signal  tor  me  to  go,  and  when  I  got  to  the  corral, 
following  promptly  after  him,  the  agent  was  standing  on  top  of  the 
stockade  making  preparations  for  the  issue.  That  I  know  absolutely. 

Q.  Didn't  you  know  that  Gibbons,  the  clerk,  was  down  there,  and  had 
weighed  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  know  nothing  of  the  kind. 

Q.  Were  you  not  so  informed  ? 

A.  1  think  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say,  Professor,  you  were  informed  that  they 
had  been  weighed. 

A.  1  heard  something  about  the  weighing  before  they  went  down,  but 
there  are  several  important  points  to  be  considered  in  this  connection. 
I  don't  know  whether  you  want  to  take  them  up  now  or  not.  One,  for 
instance,  is  whether  the  cattle  were  actually  weighed  or  not.  That  I 
doubt. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  it  ? 

A.  I  will  give  my  reasons  for  doubting  it,  which  I  think  are  conclu 
sive. 

Q.  We  have  very  positive  proof  that  they  were  weighed.  If  you  have 
anything  to  the  contrary,  we  would  like  you  to  give  us  that  information. 

A.  If  you  have  only  the  evidence  of  the  agent  and  his  employes,  alone, 
I  should  not  change  my  opinion  nevertheless. 

Q.  And  suppose  we  have  it  from  several  very  respectable  gentlemen, 
who  are  disinterested,  that  they  saw  them  weighed  ? 

A.  Then  I  should  think  differently,  but  not  from  the  statements  of 
the  agent  and  his  immediate  employes. 

Q.  If  you  have  any  reason  that  is  conclusive  to  you  mind,  which  sat 
isfies  you  that  they  were  not  weighed,  we  would  like  you  to  give  it  to 
us.  It  might  satisfy  us  on  that  point! 

A.  In  the  first  place,  the  14th  of  November  was  a  short  day,  cloudy 
in  the  morning.  Now,  the  agent  states  distinctly  that  he  weighed  all 
those  cattle  himself.  I  know  of  my  own  knowledge  that,  if  he  weighed 
ed  them,  he  must  have  been  through  before  half  past  ten  o'clock  in  the 
morning.  Consequently,  the  only  time  he  had  to  weigh  those  seven 
hundred  and  one  head  of  cattle,  which  is  the  number,  according  to  his 
receipts,  was  between  the  time  he  went  to  the  corral  in  the  morning  to 
weigh  and  the  time  he  left  the  coral  to  come  back  to  the  agency.  I 


94  . 

claim  that  there  was  not  time  enough  to  weigh  those  cattle  daring  the 
period  the  agent  was  at  the  corral. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  were  there  on  that  occasion '? 

A.  Seven  hundred  and  one. 

Q.  How  long  do  you  claim  that  it  would  take  to  weigh  seven  hundred 
and  one  cattle  with  the  arrangements  they  have  there  for  weighing? 

A.  That  would  depend  on  the  character  of  the  cattle  somewhat. 

Q.  Well,  these  cattle  were  extraordinarily  poor,  according  to  your 
statement.  How  long  would  it  take  to  weigh  that  kind  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  don't  say  they  were  extraordinarily  poor.  I  got  to  the  agency 
either  about  ten  o'clock,  or  not  later  than  half-past  ten. 

Q.  You  were  stopping  down  at  Camp  Robinson? 

A.  I  was.     But  that  was  the  morning  when  I  came  up  to  the  agency. 

Q.  You  got  to  the  agency  about  ten  o'clock  ? 

A.  Ten,  or  not  later  than  half  past  ten.  The  agent  was  then  there. 
I  was  with  him,  or  near  him,  all  the  time  between  that  hour  and  the 
time  when  he  went  down  to  the  corral  to  issue  the  cattle;  that  is  to  say, 
two  o'clock.  During  that  time  he  could  not  have  gone  down  and  weighed 
those  cattle  without  my  knowing  it.  That  is  the  only  reason. 

Q.  You  state  that  he  could  not  have  weighed  the  cattle  before  ten 
o'clock,  the  time  you  came  up  there  ? 

A.  I  feel  confident  he  could  not. 

Q.  You  don't  think  he  could? 

A.  That  is  my  opinion. 

Q.  Do  you  say  in  your  judgment  it  was  impossible  for  him  to  have 
done  it  f 

A.  I  think  in  my  judgment  it  was  not  done  during  the  time  he  was 
there. 

Q.  Do  you  think  in  your  judgment  it  was  impossible  for  him  to  have 
weighed  those  cattle  in  the  morning  before  you  got  there,  no  matter 
what  time  he  commenced! 

A.  I  do.  The  maximum  time,  of  course,  would  be  between  daylight 
and  ten  o'clock,  of  course  deducting  the  time  it  took  him  to  go  there 
and  back. 

Q.  But  he  could  have  commenced  to  weigh  at  daylight? 

A.  Y"es,  I  suppose  he  could,  but  it  is  not  very  likely  that  he  would. 

Q.  Professor,  you  state  that  in  that  region  cattle  should  be  in  good 
condition  at  that  season  of  the  year.  Now  have  you  any  information 
that  you  could  give  us  that  this  herd  of  cattle  was  not  in  good  con 
dition  ? 

A.  Cattle  would  be  in  the  best  condition  in  October,  I  should  judge, 
in  that  region,  and  would  fall  off  but  little  by  the  middle  of  Novem 
ber,  but  yet  they  would  to  some  extent. 

Q.  Well,  what  I  ask  you  is  this :  If  you  have  any  information  why  it 
was  that  this  particular  herd  of  cattle  should  be  poor,  contrary  to  what 
would  be  the  natural  condition  of  cattle  at  that  season  of  the  year  in 
that  region  of  country  ?  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  previous  loca 
tion,  handling,  management,  or  dealings  with  this  herd  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  cause  why  these  cattle  should  be  poorer  than 
any  other  cattle  in  that  part  of  the  country  ? 

A.  I  judge  from  the  "  scalawags"  and  small  cattle  in  the  herd  that 
it  was  not  a  fair  representative  "bunch,"  as  they  would  say  there,  of 
cattle  from  a  large  herd,  but  that  it  was  a  poor  lot  sent  up  at  that  time ; 
otherwise,  I  should  say  at  once  that  cattle  at  that  time  of  year  would 


95 

be  in  pretty  good  condition.  There  had  been  some  cold  weather,  but 
not  enough  seriously  to  affect  them. 

Q.  And  yon  can  give  no  reason  why  these  particular  cattle  should  be 
in  bad  condition  at  that  season  ? 

A.  Except  that  there  may  not  have  been  a  fair  sample  of  the  Texas 
cattle  in  that  herd  at  that  time,  but  a  poor  lot.  That  is  what  I  think 
they  were. 

Q.  Can  you  give  any  explanation  of  how  a  man  could  get  together 
seven  hundred  and  one  head  of  poor  cattle  at  that  season  of  the  year  in 
that  region  ? 

A.  The  cattle  were  not  all  poor,  as  I  have  stated,  but  when  you  judge 
of  a  herd  of  cattle  your  attention  is  naturally  directed  to  the  small  ones 
and  the  scalawags  and  so  on,  especially  as  in  this  case  I  had  heard  both 
lied  Cloud  and  Red  Dog  and  other  Indians  complain  of  the  character  of 
the  cattle,  and  this  had  been  a  subject  of  comment  among  several  Army 
officers  and  myself  for  two  or  three  days  previously ;  so  that  having 
had  our  attention  called  to  the  poor  cattle  that  were  being  issued  about 
that  time,  when  I  saw  these  cattle  I  had  fresh  in  my  mind  the  previous 
conversations  on  the  cattle  question. 

Q.  Did  you  inquire  of  the  agent  or  anybody  else  there  what  was  the 
weight  of  those  cattle  as  shown  by  the  scales  ? 

A.  I  did  not.  My  conversation  with  the  agent  about  the  cattle  I 
have  given  already. 

Q.  You  state  here  that  Mr.  Bosler  apologized  for,  or  explained,  tlic 
condition  of  the  cattle.  Which  one  of  the  Boslers  did  that  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  his  first  name. 

Q.  Who  did  he  talk  with  ? 

A.  To  me.    Possibly  to  Major  Burt  also. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  ? 

A.  He  said  words  to  this  effect :  u  This  herd  is  not  a  fair  sample.  We 
had  bad  luck  coming  here — bad  weather,"  and  so  on.  I  don't  remem 
ber  his  exact  words,  but  what  he  said  was  touching  those  points. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  he  use  the  words  "this  is  not  a  fair  sample?'7 

A.  I  think  he  did.     He  implied  that. 

Q.  It  is  rather  important  to  know  that  he  used  words  of  that  char 
acter  ? 

A.  The  whole  tone  of  his  remarks  was  in  that  direction. 

Q.  You  have  stated  it  in  two  ways.  In  your  pamphlet  you  state 
with  reference  to  your  talk  with  Mr.  Bosler  about  these  cattle,  "  In  ex 
planation  of  their  condition  he  informed  me  that  he  had  been  obliged  to 
overdrive  them  so  as  to  reach  the  agency  in  time  for  the  issue."  That 
is  the  statement  you  make  in  your  pamphlet. 

A.  That  he  stated  distinctly. 

Q.  And  now  the  way  you  put  it  is  that  he  said  "  that  is  not  a  fair 
sample  of  the  cattle."  Now,  if  you  think  he  said  that  you  should  have  it 
down  upon  the  record  ? 

A.  I  think  he  said  it.  I  am  not  confident.  He  said  something  to  that 
effect.  Whether  he  meant  clearly  to  convey  the  idea  that  the  cattle 
were  absolutely  inferior  to  the  previous  issues,  or  whether,  owing  to 
these  facts  that  he  stated  they  did  not  appear  as  well,  I  would  not  be  as 
positive  about  that. 

Q.  Did  he  volunteer  that  statement,  or  did  you  make  some  inquiries 
of  him  t 

A.  No,  he  volunteered  that  statement  to  me. 


96 

Q.  Had  you  made  any  statement  before  ? 

A.  I  had  not;  possibly  Major  Burt,  who  was  with  me,  said  something 
about  the  cattle,  and  in  that  way  introduced  the  subject;  there  were 
two  or  three  of  us  talking,  and  he  introduced  those  remarks  himself 
about  the  cattle. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  You  say  you  "  subsequently  learned  that  this  was  a  standing  excuse 
when  persons  not  directly  interested  in  Indian  affairs  witnessed  a  cattle 
delivery.'7  Whom  did  you  learn  that  from  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot  say  absolutely  the  person  who  told  me  of  it,  It 
was  some  one  familiar  with  matters  there,  and  I  think  one  or  two  of  the 
Army  officers. 

Q.  Did  they  state  how  many  times  that  excuse  had  been  made  to 
them  f 

A.  They  did  not. 

Q.  Did  they  state  that  it  had  been  made  previously  ? 

A.  They  did  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  person  who  told  you,  whoever  he  was, 
knew  anything  about  it,  or  was  he  only  stating  a  rumor? 

A.  I  accepted  the  statement  at  the  time  as  reliable. 

Q.  That  is  hardly  a  fair  answer.  I  ask  if  you  know  whether  the  per 
son  who  told  you  that  knew  personally  anything  about  it,  or  whether 
he  was  merely  making  a  casual  remark  conveying  what  he  supposed  to 
be  a  common  rumor? 

A.  As  I  remember  the  circumstance,  I  think  he  spoke  of  what  he 
knew  in  some  cases,  and  what  he  heard  in  others ;  that  he  himself  had 
heard  some  such  excuses  made,  or  knew  of  their  being  made. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  quote  Agent  Saville  as  saying  that  "he  himself  weighed 
all  of  the  herd  that  were  weighed  on  the  morning  that  they  arrived." 
Now,  do  you  say  that  that  is  not  so ;  that  he  did  not  weigh  them  ? 

A.  I  have  already  stated  that  I  don't  think  it  is  true;  I  don't  think 
he  weighed  them. 

Q.  But  do  you  say  that  it  is  not  true  ? 

A.  I  don't  believe  it  is  true. 

Q.  Well,  you  say  you  found,  "  according  to  Agent  Saville's  receipts  of 
the  cattle  received  during  the  same  quarter  of  1874  had  reached  nearly 
the  same  average  of  more  than  1,040  each."  Now,  do  you  say  to  us  that 
those  cattle  did  not  weigh  that  much? 

A.  The  cattle  I  saw  issued • 

Q.  No,  110 ;  I  am  talking  about  what  you  have  stated  in  your  pam 
phlet.  You  say,  "  I  found  that,  according  to  Agent  Saville's  receipts 
of  the  cattle  received  during  the  same  quarter  of  1874  had  reached 
nearly  the  same  average  of  more  thaii  3,040  pounds  each."  Now  do 
you  say  those  cattle  did  not  weigh  that  amount  ? 

A.  1  don't  know  it  positively,  because  I  was  not  there  during  the 
whole  quarter.  I  have  here  Bishop  Hare's  statement  of  what  Saville 
said  in  my  presence  in  Washington.  That  is  not  a  verbatim  statement, 
but  the  substance,  as  Bishop  Hare  and  myself  subsequently  agreed 
upon.  I  will  read  that  statement.  It  is  as  follows : 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  June  I,  1875. 

Had  interview  with  Bishop  Hare  at  Ebbitt  House.     Dr.  J.  J.  Saville  also  present 
part  of  time. 


97 

On  inquiry  by  Mr.  Bishop  H.  and  myself,  the  following  statement  was  made  bv 
Saville : 

1.  The  herd  of  about  700  cattle  that  came  to  agency  while  I  was  there  were  very 

gaunt  and  thin,  owing  to  hard  driving,  some  48  hours,  with  little  grass  or  sleep.  He 
ad  sent  word  to  the  contractor  to  hurry  through,  as  he  had  only  seven  head  on  hand 
and  the  Indians  had  had  no  beef  for  some  time,  he  having  kept  back  rations  to  induce 
them  to  be  counted.  This  had  made  them  angry.  These  cattle  arrived  in  the  morn 
ing,  and  he  had  weighed  most  of  them  that  forenoon.  Some  few  that  were  wild  he 
did  not  weigh  but  estimated.  Among  the  cattle  then  issued  were  40  or  more  small 
and  "  scalawag"  cattle.  The  issue  was  the  same  afternoon  of  the  receipt.  Dr.  S.  was 
confident  that  the  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh  850  Ibs.  on  an  average.  The 
bishop  asked  my  opinion,  and  I  thought  they  were  much  less.  Saville  insisted  that 
those  he  weighed  came  up  to  that  average,  and  those  estimated  were  fully  as  large. 
He  himself  weighed  all  that  were  weighed  of  that  herd.  This  he  did  the  morning  they 
arrived. 

2.  Saville  said  that  there  were  only  seven  head  of  cattle  (those  examined  by  Gen.  B.) 
at  agency  Nov.  llth.     Two  of  them  he  did  not  feel  sure  he  had  receipted  for.     I  then 
reminded  him  that  he  had  told  Mr.  Hinman  and  myself  that  he  had  receipted  for  all  7, 
and  that  I  had  questioned  him  particularly  on  that  very  point. 

3.  Saville  said  that  a  short  time  before  my  visit  (in  August  he  thought)  he  was  in 
Cheyenne,  and  ten  car-loads  of  flour  (2,000  sacks)  arrived,  and  the  need  of  the  agency 
being  great,  by  order  of  Dept.  were  sent  on  to  agency  without  inspection,  except  that 
Mr.  French,  of  Chicago,  retained  a  sample,  by  Dept.  order. 

4.  Subsequently,  some  200  sacks  of  dark  flour,  inspected  by  B.  White,  at  Omaha, 
came  to  agency  without  being  inspected  at  Cheyenne.    This  was  very  poor  flour,  but 
not  musty.    This  was  about  the  time  of  my  visit.     I  asked  Saville  if  the  "  dark,  sticky" 
flour  I  saw  given  out  was  part  of  this  lot,  and  he  said  he  thought  it  was. 

5.  In  regard  to  tobacco.  Saville  said  that  there  were  two  kinds  in  the  warehouse, 
one  of  this  year  and  one  of  previous  year.    The  latter  was,  on  one  occasion,  chosen  by 
Red  Cloud  to  send  to  northern  Indians  as  a  present. 

6.  The  sugar  issued  during  my  visit  was  a  dark,  low  grade,  but  good  wholesome 
sugar. 

7.  Coffee  was  not  very  good. 

8.  The  pork  was  "prime  mess-pork,"  and  not  very  useful  to  Indians,  who  use  only 
the  fat. 

The  above  report  of  a  conversation  with  Major  J.  J.  Saville  is  correct  according  to 
remembrance  of  it. 

W.  H.  HARE. 
NEW  YORK,  June  24,  1875. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  Saville  was  present  when  you 
read  that  paper  to  Bishop  Hare  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  At  same  time  when  you  did  read  something  from  Saville's  state 
ment,  he  did  object  to  it  ? 

A.  It  was  when  I  read  my  notes  of  the  conversation  with  Mr.  Hin 
man.  I  saw  Saville  with  the  Kev.  Mr.  Hinman,  the  official  interpreter, 
previous  to  the  interview  with  Bishop  Hare.  It  was  in  the  conversation 
between  Bishop  Hare  and  myself  in  Saville's  presence  when  Saville 
expressed  a  doubt  about  receiving  or  accepting  all  the  seven  head  of 
cattle. 

Q.  How  many  conversations  with  Saville  have  you  undertaken  to 
take  down  f 

A.  Three  :  One  in  the  presence  of  Mr.  Hinman,  of  which  I  have  full 
notes — riot,  however,  with  his  signature ;  I  will  give  it  to  you  if  you 
desire.  The  second  was  with  Bishop  Hare.  I  have  his  signature,  (the 
one  I  have  just  submitted ;)  and  the  third  was  my  own  conversation 
with  Saville,  to  which  I  make  no  reference. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  say,  Professor,  when  Saville  said  those  cattle  would  weigh 
850  pounds,  that  he  did  not  say  "and  more?" 
7  IF 


f 

A.  I  am  perfectly  confident  that  he  did  not  say  anything  of  that  kind, 
and  that  he  did  not  imply  it  in  anything  that  he  said. 

Q.  You  publish  in  your  statement  here,  page  2G,  a  schedule  of  beef-cat 
tle,  amounting  to  2,719  head,  and  you  speak  of  this  large  herd  of  cattle, 
which  no  one  could  fairly  estimate  at  a  greater  average  weight  per 
head  than  750  pounds.  Now  do  you  say  that  those  cattle  did  not  weigh 
more  than  750  pounds  f 

A.  Judging  from  all  I  saw  of  the  cattle 

Q.  O,  no ;  not  judging  from  what  you  saw,  but  do  you  say  so  your 
self? 

A.  I  did  not  weigh  them,  and  hence  I  cannot  say  that  they  did  not 
weigh  that. 

Q.  You  cannot  say  but  they  might  have  weighed  more  than  750 
pounds  "I 

A.  I  cannot. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  say  that  Saville  claimed  that  these  2,719  head  of  cat 
tle  weighed  only  850  pounds  ? 

A.  I  don't  touch  that  point  at  all. 

Q.  What  do  yon  mean,  then,  when  you  say  that  Savilie  only  claimed 
that  they  weighed  850  pounds  ? 

A.  I  refer  here  to  the  herd  which  I  saw;  my  statement  at  the  bottom 
of  the  page  relates  to  the  herd  I  saw  them  issue.  I  refer  to  the  herd 
we  were  then  talking  about  in  Bishop  Hare's  presence. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  mean  that  Saville  only  claimed  that  those  2,719 
head  of  cattle  weighed  850  pounds — you  do  not  mean  that  ? 

A.  I  do  not  touch  that  point. 

Q.  You  don't  mean  by  this  statement,  that  ? 

A.  No,  I  don't  touch  that  point  at  all. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  question  is,  whether,  at  the  time  you  and  Bishop  Hare  were 
having  this  conversation  with  Saville,  you  had  the  information  con 
cerning  their  reported  weight? 

A.  1  am  not  sure ;  I  think  I  had  ;  but  I  am  not  absolutely  sure. 

Q.  When  you  talked  with  Saville,  and  he  was  claiming  they  would 
weigh  850  pounds,  did  you  know  that  he  had  reported  them  as  weighing 
1,043  pounds  ? 

A.  I  did  not  at  that  time.  I  base  that  statement  on  an  official  docu 
ment  from  the  Second  Auditor's  Office,  dated  June  8. 

Q.  Had  you  any  information  to  satisfy  you  that  Saville  had  receipted 
for  them  at  that  rate? 

A.  I  think  I  had,  but  I  wont  be  positive. 

Q.  Bid  you  suggest  it  to  Saville  or  mention  the  weight  which  he  had 
reported  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  to  Bishop  Hare  ? 

A.  I  think  I  did  not. 

Q.  So  that  you  and  Bishop  Hare  then,  as  you  now  remember,  already 
had  information  that  Saville  had  receipted  for  those  cattle  at  the  rate 
of  1,043  pounds  each  ? 

A.  I  wont  be  positive  whether  I  had  that  information  at  the  time  or 
not;  I  have  an  impression,  however,  that  I  knew  approximately. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether,  during  the  conversation  which  has 
been  referred  to,  anything  was  said  about  the  cattle  corning  up  to  the 
contract- weight  ? 

A.  I  wont  be  positive  on  that  point. 


99 

Q.  Or  whether  the  fact  of  their  weighing  a  thousand  pounds  was  men 
tioned  ? 

A.  I  feel  sure  that  was  not  mentioned. 

Q.  Was  there  any  reference  made  to  the  contract-weights  of  850 
pounds  in  the  summer,  and  1,000  in  the  winter?  Do  you  differ  with  the 
Bishop  on  that  subject  ? 

A.  Since  the  Bishop's  statement,  I  have  thought  that  over,  and  don't 
recall  any  reference  to  that,  but  yet  it  may  have  been  said.  I  will  say, 
while  on  this  beef  question,  I  have  a  certificate  to  present  as  evidence, 
which  I  consider  important.  This  certificate  is  from  Lieut.  P.  H.  Kay, 
second  lieutenant  of  the  Eighth  Infantry,  who  was  stationed  at  the  Bed 
Cloud  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Where  is  he  now  ? 

A.  He  is  now  in  Arizona,  and  I  received  this  document  by  mail.  He 
saw  those  cattle  issued,  and  as  he  was  commissary  and  directly  engaged 
in  looking  after  cattle  in  the  Army,  his  evidence  is  of  special  weight. 

Q.  Do  you  know  him  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  him  personally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  was  stationed  there  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  there  ? 

A.  I  did  not;  he  came  afterward, 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  was  commissary  ? 

A.  I  do ;  I  will  give  you  that  if  there  is  any  doubt  about  it ;  I  can 
give  you  additional  evidence. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  has  had  experience  in  the  matter  of  pur 
chasing,  and  weighing,  and  dealing  in  cattle? 

A.  On  that  point  I  refer  to  his  letter  accompanying  the  certificate, 
both  of  which  I  now  hand  in. 

YUMA  DEPOT,  ARIZ., 

August  28,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Please  find  inclosed  certificate  of  some  of  the  facts  that  came  to  my 
knowledge  while  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  hope  it  may  be  of  some  assistance  to  yon. 
I  judged  his  herd  by  one  which  I  had  as  acting  commissary  of  subsistence,  which 
were  much  larger  cattle,  and  by  actual  slaughtered  weight  did  not  come  up  to  an 
average  of  800  pounds. 

Verv  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

P.  H.  RAY, 
Second  Lieutenant,  Eighth  Infantry. 

Prof.  0.  C.  MARSH, 

New  Haven.  Conn. 

YUMA  DEPOT,  ARIZ., 

August  28,  1875. 

I  certify  that  during  the  months  of  April,  May,  and  June,  1874,  while  at  Red  Cloud 
agency,  Nebraska,  I  was  present  at  several  issues  of  fresh  beef  "  on  foot "  to  the  Indians. 
I  also  frequently  passed  through  the  agency-herd,  and  all  the  cattle  I  ever  saw  issued 
or  on  hand  at  this  agency  were  inferior  Texas  cattle,  many  of  them  only  one  and  two 
years  old,  and  would  not,  in  my  opinion,  at  any  time  average  over  seven  hundred 
pounds  gross.  Agent  Saville  informed  me  in  conversation  that  he  received  and  issued 
these  cattle  at  an  average  of  one  thousand  pounds  gross.  I  was  also  frequently 
present  at  the  issue  of  flour,  sugar,  coft'ee,  and  salt  meat,  (having  United  States  sub 
sistence-stores  in  a  part  of  same  building,)  and  I  never  saw  an  issue  made  by  weight. 
The  invariable  rule  was  to  issue  the  flour,  sugar,  and  coffee  with  a  scoop-shovel,  except 
to  large  parties,  when  the  flour  was  issued  in  bulk,  and  the  stores  were  always  of  a 
very  inferior  quality. 

P.  H.  RAY, 
Second  Lieutenant,  Eighth  Infantry. 


100 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  say,  "These  frauds  iii  weights,  which  are  consummated  by  di 
rect  collusion  between  the  agent  and  contractor,  and  through  which 
both  Indians  and  Government  are  usually  greatly  defrauded,  form  only 
a  part  of  the  general  system  of  theft."  Now,  do  you  charge,  on  your 
responsibility,  collusion  between  the  contractor  and  agent  to  defraud 
the  Indians  or  the  Government? 

A.  I  infer  that  from  what 

Q.  No ;  I  do  not  want  what  you  infer.  Do  you  charge  now,  on  your 
responsibility  as  a  man,  that  that  is  the  case  ?  " 

A.  I  believe  that  fraud  took  place. 

Q.  I  don't  want  your  belief  about  it ;  I  want  to  know  if  you  charge 
it  here  now  1 

A.  Not  on  facts  within  my  own  knowledge ;  but  from  the  information 
I  have 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  about  your  knowledge  or  information  now,  or 
anything  of  that  kind  ;  we  will  come  to  that  directly.  I  want  to  know 
now  if  that  is  the  charge  we  are  investigating,  and  if  you  make  it  ? 

A.  I  do  not  make  the  charge  directly,  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  that  there  is  a  u  general  system  of  theft,"  in  which 
parties  connected  with  the  Indian  matters  are  engaged  1 

A.  I  consider  the  agent  guilty  of  theft  in  that  sense. 

Q.  Then  you  charge  him  with  theft  ? 

A.  I  consider  him  guilty  of  theft. 

Q.  Well,  who  else  do  you  charge  with  theft,  here,  now  ? 

A.  I  make  no  other  charge  directly. 

Q.  You  state  that  the  agent  should  have  had  on  hand,  on  the  llth  of 
November,  1874,  "  about  430  head  of  cattle,  when  he  actually  had  only 
seven."  Now,  do  you  state  of  your  own  knowledge  that  he  had  not 
issued  those  cattle  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  That  conclusion  which  I  end  with  here  is  drawn  from  his  own 
official  documents,  which  you  have  in  your  possession. 

Q.  And  not  based  upon  personal  knowledge  or  anything  outside  of 
them? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  should  like  to  ask  the  Professor  if  he  will  give  us  the  calculation 
by  which  he  arrives  at  that  result ;  if  not  now,  at  some  other  time.  I 
have  looked  over  the  figures  with  a  good  deal  of  care,  and  should  like  to 
see  the  process. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  With  regard  to  the  issue  of  November  8,  I  will  state 
here  that  it  has  been  shown  above  that  the  issue  of  November  8  did  not 
take  place.  Agent  Saville,  in  his  statement  to  you,  claims  that  this  was 
a  mere  clerical  error,  and  the  date  opposite  the  8th  should  have  been 
opposite  the  1st;  and  that  the  issue  took  placet-hen.  I  wish  to  meet 
that  point  directly  here,  by  reference  to  a  letter  to  the  Indian  Bureau 
from  Agent  Saville,  dated  November  13,  1874.  The  document  you  will 
find  on  file  in  the  Interior  Department.  I  wish  to  call  your  attention  to 
the  fourth  clause  in  that  letter,  which  reads  as  follows:  "  4th.  Novem 
ber  1st.  There  was  no  issue,  it  being  suspended  until  the  Indians  should 
consent  to  be  counted.'5  * 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  the  Professor  if  there  is  anything  in  this  to 
show  that  the  issue  did  not  take  place  November  1st,  with  reference 
to  beef  particularly  f 


101 

A.  Here  is  the  document  which  comes  with  that  letter.  [Exhibiting 
abstract  of  provisions,  showing  no  issue  of  any  articles  on  the  1st.] 

Q.  Does  this  word  "  issue,"  in  the  clause  quoted,  as  you  understand 
refer  to  the  rations,  or  to  beef  alone  ? 

A.  To  the  rations  ;  to  the  whole  issue. 

Q.  Now,  Professor,  suppose  it  to  be  true  that  there  is  a  clerical  error  as 
is  alleged  by  Dr.  Saville  in  his  statement,  and  that  November  8th  is 
written  on  his  books  instead  of  November  1st,  and  that  abstract  was 
made  up  from  his  books  as  of  November  8th  instead  of  November  1st, 
would  not  this  statement  actually  be  made  to  conform  to  the  record  as 
he  has  it  there,  that  there  was  none  on  November  1st  ? 

A.  That  is  possible. 

Q.  Does  it  not  necessarily  follow,  if  his  books  show  that  there  was  an 
issue  on  the  8th,  and  that  statement  is  made  up  from  the  books,  would 
not  that  necessarily  correspond  to  the  books,  and  would  not  this  state 
ment  actually  be  made  as  corresponding  to  those  of  the  book  and  the 
abstract,  that  there  was  none  on  November  1st? 

A.  I  would  not  say  necessarily,  but  naturally. 

Q.  Then,  if  after  making  this  return,  he  should  discover  that  Novem 
ber  the  8th  on  his  books  and  November  the  8th  on  the  abstract  were 
a  clerical  error,  would  it  not  follow  that  this  was  a  clerical  error  also, 
and  that  he  should  have  said  on  November  8th  there  was  no  issue  in 
stead  of  November  1st? 

A.  I  think  perhaps  it  would. 

Q.  That  being  the  case,  does  this  document  which  you  have  offered 
necessarily  convict  Dr.  Saville  of  a  false  statement,  any  farther  than  the 
clerical  error  goes  ? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Professor,  in  the  next  paragraph  of  your  pamphlet  you  say  that 
Paxton  was  "  well  known  "  to  be  the  agent  of  Bosler.  What  evidence 
have  you  of  that  1 

A.  That  is  what  I  learn  from  people,  who  were  familiar  with  those 
matters,  in  that  region. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  the  name  of  anybody  who  knows  that  fact  ? 

A,  I  cannot  say  that  they  know  of  their  own  knowledge.  I  do  not 
know  it  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Did  any  persons  tell  you  that  they  knew  it  of  their  own  knowl 
edge? 

A.  I  am  not  sure  that  they  did. 

Q.  You  say  that  u  this  contract  had  been  violated  in  all  its  important 
features,  and  shameful  frauds  practiced  in  its  fulfillment.77  Will  you 
point  us  to  a  violation  of  that  contract,  so  that  we  may  have  the  evi 
dence  ? 

A.  I  refer  there,  as  I  do  above,  to  the  information  1  derived  from  vari 
ous  sources  on  that  point. 

Q.  Can  you  name  a  single  instance  in  your  knowledge  of  the  viola 
tion  of  a  single  contract  on  the  part  of  Paxton  ? 

A.  I  consider  that  the 

Q.  No,  no.  Can  you  name  an  instance  of  your  own  knowledge  is 
what  I  asked  you. 

A.  The  herd  of  cattle  which  I  saw  issued 

Q.  O,  no ;  that  is  not  the  question.  The  question  is,  can  you  name 
a  single  instance  within  your  knowledge  which  is  a  violation  of  that 
contract — yes  or  no  ? 


102 

A.  I  think  I  can 

Q.  Well,  name  it. 

A.  The  issue  of  beef  which  I  saw  on  November  14 

Q.  You  consider  a  violation  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  Any  other  one  ? 

A.  I  have  no  other  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  u  And  shameful  frauds  practiced  in  its  fulfillment."  Have  you  any 
personal  knowledge  of  that? 

A.  I  refer  to  the  same  beef-issue  so  far  as  my  personal  knowledge  is 
concerned. 

Q.  Your  personal  knowledge  of  it  relates  to  this  particular  issue  ? 

A.  To  that  particular  issue.  My  additional  information  is  given  in 
the  certificates  1  have  presented. 

Q.  When  you  say  that  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  was  dere 
lict  in  duty,  in  not  calling  on  the  bondsmen  of  Paxton,  the  contractor, 
for  satisfaction,  as  the  law  required  him  to  do,  you  mean  that  the  bond 
had  become  forfeited  by  means  of  these  violations  of  the  contract 
which  you  have  mentioned  ? 

A.  I  so  considered  it. 

Q.  You  state  that  Commissioner  Smith  "  on  March  17, 1875,  privately 
made  a  new  contract  with  the  same  W.  A.  Paxton  (but  in  reality  with 
Bosler)  to  supply  beef  for  the  same  Red  Cloud  agency,  at  a  much  higher 
price  ($3  per  100  pounds)  than  this  contractor  had  originally  bound 
himself,"  and,  "  this  contract  was  illegal,  as  it  was  given  by  the  Com 
missioner  without  advertising  for  proposals."  Does  that  embrace  all 
the  allegation  you  propose  to  make  against  the  conduct  of  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  in  that  respect,  that  it  was  illegal,  being  let 
without  advertising  ? 

A.  In  regard  to  these  transactions  here,  I  will  say,  first,  I  consid 
ered  the  previous  contract  was  not  completed  ;  that  is,  the  contract  was 
for  so  many  millions  of  pounds  of  beef.  If  the  cattle  did  riot  weigh 
what  the  receipts  stated  they  weighed,  then  the  whole  amount  of  beef 
had  not  been  issued.  Second,  each  contract  stated  that  the  Govern 
ment  has  a  right  to  call  for  25  per  cent,  more  of  the  same  supplies,  if 
deemed  advisable.  I  believe  the  Commissioner  did  not  call  for  the  extra 
25  per  cent,  on  that  contract.  Third,  the  legality  of  a  contract  made 
without  advertising  would.  I  think,  depend  upon  the  emergency.  There 
is  a  law  of  Congress,  if  I  am  rightly  informed,  which  states  that  the 
purchase  of  goods  to  any  large  amount  shall  take  place  only  after  pro 
posals  have  been  advertised  for,  except  in  certain  cases  of  great  emer 
gency  ;  this  being  designed  to  meet  a  case  that  comes  up  suddenly,  as  I 
understand  it — some  pressing  emergency.  Now,  I  will  say  that  I  don't 
think  there  was  a  sudden,  pressing  emergency  in  this  case.  The  fact 
that  the  supply  of  beef  would  be  exhausted  about  a  certain  time  must 
have  been  known  to  the  Commissioner  some  time  before  it  was  ex 
hausted,  and  it  seems  to  me  he  had  plenty  of  time  to  advertise  for  pro 
posals.  I  stated  in  my  testimony  in  New  York  that  I  believed  much 
better  terms  could  have  been  obtained  by  the  Government  if  proposal 
had  been  advertised  for. 

Q.  So,  then,  I  understand  you  to  mean  that  he  was  direlict  in  duty 
in  not  calling  for  the  25  per  cent,  additional  within  a  reasonable  time, 
and  he  was  direlict  in  duty  in  not  advertising,  because  you  think  the 
emergency  did  not  exist  for  purchasing  it? 

A.  I  think  so. 


103 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  there  an  additional  supply  of  beef  that  might  have  been 
supplied  under  the  25  per  cent,  clause  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  so  understand  it. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Professor,  on  page  29  of  your  pamphlet  are  published  memoranda 
of  beef-cattle,  then  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  from  January  1  to  April  21, 
1875.  It  would  appear,  from  the  statement  that  you  made  preceding 
this,  that  it  was  your  intention  to  say  that  the  cattle  there  mentioned 
did  not  weigh  the  amount  stated  in  the  memoranda.  Is  that  your  inten 
tion  ? 

A.  I  have  further  evidence  in  support  of  that  view. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  to  charge  that  they  did  not  weigh  that  amount  ? 

A.  Not  to  assert  of  my  own  knowledge  that  they  did  not  weigh  that 
amount,  but  to  give  evidence  that  they  did  not. 

Q.  Then  you  intended  to  show  that  they  did  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  state  that  "  another  fruitful  source  of  fraud  in  cattle  at  Eed 
Cloud  agency  is  the  system,  of  stampeding,  which  appears  to  have  been 
practiced  there,  at  least  since  the  present  agent  had  charge.'7  Now, 
will  you  state  how  many  stampedes  of  Indian  cattle  in  the  hands  of 
the  agent  have  ever  occurred  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  any  knowledge  that  you  deem  reliable  from  any 
body  else  as  to  the  number  ? 

A.  I  have  no  definite  information  that  I  can  give  here  of  more  than 
two. 

Q.  Had  you  that  information  when  you  prepared  these  charges  ? 

A.  I  had  that  iuformatlan,  and  I  supposed  I  had  more. 

Q.  Hence,  you  charge  a  "  system  of  stampeding  f; 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  Well,  you  don't  think  that  the  two  instances  that  you  had  heard 
of  justified  the  conclusion  that  it  was  a  system? 

A.  I  do  not. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  the  Professor  if  he  can  state  specifically  of 
having  heard  of  more  than  two  instances. 

A.  I  could  not  refer  distinctly  to  more  than  two  where  the  cattle  were 
in  the  hands  of  the  agent.  I  mean,  of  course,  stampedes  of  any  amount. 
Of  course,  small  stampedes  might  take  place,  and  I  think  it  is  well  known 
that  they  do  ;  but  I  am  speaking  of  a  large  stampede— one  large  enough 
for  the  cattle  to  go  back  to  the  contractor's  herd  on  the  Platte.  A  small 
stampede  might  take  place  from,  various  causes ;  a  small  bunch  of 
cattle  might  be  stampeded  and  go  up  on  the  hills  ami  be  picked  up  by 
the  Indians.  But  I  refer  to  a  more  general  stampede. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  In  support  of  that  charge,  you  produce  a  certificate  of  Louis 
Eeshaw,  stating  that  "  most  of  them,  over  100  in  number,  went  back  to 
the  contractors'  herd  on  the  Platte."  Do  you  think  that  was  the  number! 

A.  I  accept  the  number.     I  state  here  over  a  hundred. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  think  Louis  Eeshaw  knew  the  number  ? 

A.  Not  exactly. 

Q.  Did  he  know  that  150  or  1GO  had  been  returned  on  account  ot  that 
stampede,  or  did  he  state  that  fact  to  you  at  that  time  '! 

A.  You  mean  by  that,  returned  by  the  contractor  to  the  agent  '< 


104 

Q.  Yes }  or  accounted  for  to  him. 
A.  He  did  not. 

Q.  Had  you  been  informed  at  the  time  of  the  publication  of  this 
pamphlet  that  that  was  the  fact  ? 
A.  I  had  not. 

Q.  Now,  can  you  say,  as  you  do  here  in  this  pamphlet.  "  from  such 
stampedes  and  the  fraudulent  results  following,  both  the  Indians  and 
the  Government  have  suffered  great  loss."  Can  you  say  there  was  any 
fraud  about  any  of  those  stampedes? 

A.  I  think  there  was,  but  I  cannot  say  so  of  my  own  knowledge. 
Q.  Will  you  give  us.  your  own  reasons  for  believing  that  there  was 
fraud? 

A.  The  fact  of  the  stampede  was  well  known  when  I  was  there  and  I 
heard  a  good  many  men  speaking  of  it,  and  asserting,  as  I  supposed 
from  reliable  sources,  that  the  Government  had  suffered  great  losses. 

Q.  Yes ;  but  the  fraud  about  this  stampede — what  was  there  about 
it  that  you  heard  to  induce  the  conclusion  in  your  mind  that  there  was 
any  fraud  about  it! 

A.  If,  after  these  cattle  had  been  stampeded,  the  contractor's  herder 
should  sell  them  to  outside  parties,  that  is  fraud,  and  that  I  understood 
to  have  been  done. 

Q.  If  the  contractor's  herder  would  sell  the  cattle  that  had  been  stam 
peded  ;  but  if  the  agent  caused  the  contractor  to  account  for  them,  how 
wTas  there  any  fraud  upon  the  Government  about  it  ? 

A.  If  the  agent  caused  the  contractor  to  return  as  many  head  and  as 
good  cattle  as  stampeded,  there  was  no  fraud. 

Q.  Well,  now,  can  you  say  the  Government  or  the  Indians  have  suf 
fered  great  losses,  or  any  loss,  by  reason  of 'those  stampedes  ? 

A.  I  believe  such  to  be  the  case,  but  I  cannot  state  it  of  mv  own 
knowledge. 

Q.  What  are  your  grounds  for  such  belief  ? 

A.  If  any  cattle  are  lost   absolutely  in  consequence  of  such  stam 
peding,  both  the  Government  and  the  Indians  suffer  loss. 
Q.  Certainly  •  but  were  any  cattle  lost  "I 
A.  I  think  there  were. 
Q.  Well,  why  do  you  think  so  ? 
A.  From  what  I  hear  of  the  stampeding. 
Q.  Whom  did  you  hear  it  from  ? 

A.  I  cannot  now  give  you  the  names  of  the  people  who  told  me,  but 
it  was  the  common  talk  among  the  people  I  met  in  that  region.  I  mean 
that  I  heard  several  allusions  to  it,  and  I  state  what  I  do  on  the  strength 
of  information  I  received  from  such  various  sources.  I  mvself  had  no 
personal  knowledge  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  derive  any  knowledge  on  the  subject  from  anybody  who 
had  any  personal  knowledge,  and  who  professed  to  have  personal  knowl 
edge  of  the  loss,  ultimately,  of  any  cattle  ? 

A.  At  that  time  the  cattle  had  not  been  returned,  nor  the  matter 
settled. 

Q.  At  what  time  ? 

A.  At  the  time  I  was  there,  subsequent  to  the  stampede. 
Q.  Then  you  cannot  sa^v  but  what  all  those  cattle  have  been  returned 
and  all  accounted  for  ? 
A.  I  cannot. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  a  question  here.  Louis  Eeshaw,  in  his  certifi 
cate,  makes  this  statement:  "Thus,  some  cattle  were  afterward  driven 


105 

to  the  agency,  and  were  receipted  for  by  the  agent."    Now,  do  you  know 
what  means  Louis  Eeshaw  had  for  ascertaining  that  fact  ? 

A.  Merely  that  he  was  at  the  agency  and  familiar  with  the  receipts  of 
cattle,  and  I  suppose  he  spoke  from  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  suppose  he  knew  whether  or  not  the  agent  had  knocked  off 
from  the  receipts  of  cattle  150  head  at  one  time,  if  such  a  thing  took 
place,  or  did  he  simply  see  the  cattle  brought  there  and  turned  over? 

A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Who  wrote  this  certificate  signed  by  Louis  Eeshaw? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  From  your  personal  knowledge  of  Louis  Eeshaw  and  his  state 
ments,  what  would  you  feel  like  saying  to  us  that  we  may  confidently 
rely  upon  as  the  truth  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  could  say  much.  I  will  say,  in  regard  to  this  state 
ment  here,  that  the  contractor's  herder  offered  to  sell  me  those  cattle  at 
$10  a  head ;  that  Eeshaw  gave  me  the  name  of  the  herder,  told  me 
where  I  could  find  him,  and  that  I  could  get  a  good  deal  of  information 
of  him  about  that  stampeding  and  what  became  of  the  cattle. 

Q.  That  statement,  supposing  it  were  true,  I  take  it,  would  have  no 
tendency,  in  your  judgment,  to  show  that  Mr.  Bosler  or  Agent  Saville 
participated  in  that  design  ? 

A.  Not  at  all.  Mr.  Bosler  has  100  herders,  men  that  he  can  pick  up 
everywhere  around  the  country,  and  a  single  herder  may  have  wished 
to  sell  some  of  these  stampeded  cattle.  It  would  not  imply  any  wrong 
except  on  the  part  of  the  herder. 

Mr.  J.  W.  BOSLER.  I  would  like  to  ask  the  professor  a  question. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Well,  I  suppose  there  is  no  objection. 
By  Mr.  BOSLER  : 

Q.  Where  did  Louis  Eeshaw  give  you  this  certificate  ? 

A.  In  Washington. 

Q.  At  what  place — at  what  house  ? 

A.  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  Were  not  Todd  Eaudall  and  Leon  Pallarday  present  at  the  time  ? 

A.  They  were  not.    I  had  no  conversation  with  them  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Were  these  certificates  all  given  at  one  time — those  of  Louis 
Eeshaw — in  reference  to  the  blankets  and  the  beef? 

A.  They  were  given  on  the  days  mentioned,  while  he  was  in  Wash 
ington,  last  May  or  June.  The  one  about  the  blankets,  I  think  he  signed 
in  the  office  of  the  notary  public.  Those  about  the  beef  he  signed  after 
wards,  and  I  think  the  same  day. 

Q.  Was  not  it  on  the  occasion  of  a  lunch  or  dinner  to  which  you  had 
invited  him,  and  at  which  spirituous  liquors  were  very  freely  used? 

A.  It  was  not. 

Q.  Do  you  state  that  it  was  not  ? 

A.  I  do,  positively ;  he  lunched  with  me  at  the  hotel. 

Mr.  BOSLER.  Very  well ;  that  is  all. 

Subsequently,  Professor  Marsh  asked  permission  to  explain  a  little 
further  his  answer  to  Mr.  Bosler's  last  question  concerning  Louis 
Eeshaw,  which  was  granted. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  merely  wish  to  state  that  Eeshaw  was  not 
under  the  influence  of  liquor.  He  was  here  in  Washington,  with  others 
from  the  Indian  country,  and  I  invited  him  to  lunch  with  me.  I  some 
times  take  a  glass  of  ale  or  a  glass  of  wine  at  lunch,  and  we  may  have  had 
something  of  that  kind  to  drink,  but  spirituous  liquors  were  not  exces 
sively  indulged  in.  May  I  ask  what  is  the  point  of  Mr.  Bosler's  inquiry- 
why  he  asked  me  that  question? 


106 

Mr.  BOSLER.  I  was  informed  by  some  of  those  parties  that  such  was 
the  case;  that  spirituous  liquors  were  indulged  in  to  excess,  and  it  did 
not  strike  me  as  a  proper  thing,  under  the  circumstances  for  a  geutle- 
L  to  do.     You  set  yourself  up  as  a  great  moral  reformer,  and  to  a 
man  pretending  to  occupy  such  a  position  it  is  not  very  creditable  to  be 
drinking  with  squaw-men  and   half-breeds,  because,  when  under  the 
ifluence  of  liquor,  they  might  sign  papers  they  did  not  fully  understand 
.Professor  MARSH.  No,  I  do  not  call  myself  a  moral  reformer. 
Mr.  BOSLER.  O,  very  well ;  I  don't  care  anything  about  it,  ' 
Professor  MARSH.  Then  that  matter  might  as  well  be  stricken  off  the 
record. 

Mr.  BOSLER.  Very  well;  I  have  no  objection-  I  care  nothino-  more 
about  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Professor,  you  say  of  the  issue  of  provisions,  November  15,  1871 

Ihe  barrels  of  pork  were  rolled  out  of  the  warehouse  by  one  of  the 
agency  employes,  the  heads  of  the  barrels  knocked  in  with  an  axe,  and 
the  contents  turned  upon  the  ground."  Now,  how  many  barrels  did 
you  see  thus  rolled  out,  and  thus  knocked  to  pieces,  and  the  contents 
thus  tumbled  on  the  ground  ? 

A.  Agent  Saville  says  in  his  statement  to  you  that  there  was  onlv 
one  barrel  of  pork  rolled  out.  That  is  a  mistake.  I  saw  several  barrels 

Q.  How  many  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  how  many— the  exact  number.  Major  Burt  stood 
beside  me  at  the  time,  and  you  may  have  his  evidence;  but  there  were 
several  barrels. 

Q.  Well,  were  not  each  of  those  barrels  issued  in  bulk ;  the  entire  bar 
rel  issued  to  a  particular  band  of  Indians  large  enough  to  receive  a 
whole  barrel  at  an  issue,  and  thus  the  head  knocked  out  in  order  that 
they  might  divide  it  and  carry  it  away? 

A.  I  could  not  say  absolutely  as  to  the  Indians  who  received  this 
pork,  but  the  fact  that  all  the  pork  I  saw  issued  on  that  day  was  rolled 
out  and  issued  in  this  way  is  the  main  point,  and  the  character  of  the 
pork  I  noticed  particularly  at  the  time. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.^  Did  you  notice  how  many  were  knocked  open  in  that  way  with  an 

d/A.C'    • 

A.  At  least  three,  and  I  should  think  six  or  eight. 
Q.  -Did  you  notice  whether  the  Indians  or  the'  agent's  assistants  did 
that? 

A.  The  assistants;  the  employes  of  the  agency. 
Q.  In  all  cases  ? 

A.  In  all  cases.  Mr.  Saville  was  in  Cheyenne  at  that  time,  and  I  was 
at  the  agency  during  the  whole  issue. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  professor,  you  say,  "The  contract  under  which  this  wretched 
pork  was^  furnished  to  the  Indians  was  given  to  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of 
Kansas  City,  well  known  as  a  favorite  contractor  of  the  Interior  De 
partment,  and  was  signed  by  Commissioner  Smith,  July  11,  1874,"  and 
"contained  the  usual  phrase,  that  'the  articles  furnished  should  be  sub 
jected  to  a  thorough  inspection  and  careful  comparison  with  the  samples 
thereof/  and  the  usual  bond  was  required."  Now,  what  evidence  have 
you  that  Slavens  was  a  favorite  contractor  of  the  Interior  Department"? 

A.  The  tact  that  he  had  had  previous  contracts,  and  was  intimate,  as 
I  understood,  with  people  connected  with  the  Interior  Department. 


107 

Q.  With  people  connected  with  the  Interior  Department  ?    Who  ? 
A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Then  you  conclude  he  is  a  favorite  from  the  fact  that  he  had  had 
previous  contracts  ? 
A.  I  do. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  When  you  say  intimate  with  people  connected  with  the  Interior 
Department,  (that  is  rather  an  ambiguous  phrase;)  do  you  mean  intimate 
with  the  Commissioner  or  the  Secretary  ? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  familiar  in  a  business  sense,  or  familiar  in  a  social 
and  friendly  sense? 

A.  Perhaps  the  latter. 

Q.  Have  you  knowledge  that  he  was  on  terms  of  intimate  friendly 
relations  with  either  the  Secretary  or  the  Commissioner? 

A.  I  have  not,  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Well,  if  he  was,  would  that  be  conclusive  in  your  mind  that  he  was 
a  favorite  of  theirs? 

A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  Wasn't  this  pork  inspected? 

A.  I  understood  from  Commissioner  Smith,  in  New  York,  that  it  was 
inspected  in  Kansas  City. 

Q.  Well,  now,  Professor,  taking  it  for  granted  that  that  was  a  bad 
lot  of  pork,  who  do  you  conclude  from  that  was  to  blame  in  this  case? 

A.  It  is  difficult  to  say  whether  the  man  who  made  the  contract  or  the 
inspector.  I  would  not  attempt  to  fix  the  responsibility.  If  the  inspector 
did  not  do  his  duty,  he  is  to  blame. 

Q.  You  state  that  "the  price  paid  was  $21  per  barrel."  Now,  can  you 
say  that  was  more  or  less  than  the  market-price  for  the  pork  advertised 
for  and  contracted  for  by  the  Department  at  that  time? 

A.  Not  necessarily;  but  it  supposed  good,  sweet,  merchantable  pork; 
and  I  would  say  the  fraud  conies  in  the  character  of  the  pork  itself. 

Q.  I  did  not  know  but  that,  by  reason  of  your  stating  the  price,  you 
designed  to  intimate  that  there  had  been  too  much  paid  for  it,  even  if 
that  furnished  was  of  the  character  of  the  pork  contracted  for? 

A.  I  don't  mean  to  say  that,  necessarily  ? 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether,  in  your  former  testimony,  in  New  York, 
you  stated  the  pieces  of  hog  that  this  pork  consisted  of? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  touched  the  question ;  but,  as  I  remember  it,  the 
pieces  were  odd-shaped  pieces.  They  were  not  all  uniform,  as  I  have 
seen  pork  packed ;  and  another  fact  I  noticed  was,  that  some  of  the 
barrels  had  more  brine  in  than  others.  I  know  that  question  came  up 
in  my  mind  immediately  on  my  reading  Saville's  statement  that  there 
was  only  one  barrel  rolled  out.  I  remember  when  the  axe  struck  the 
head,  and  the  brine  came  out,  there  was  more  in  one  than  in  another. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  that  had  no  brine  in  ? 
A.  I  think  there  was  one. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q.  Did  you  examine  to  see  what  pieces  this  pork  consisted  of  ? 

A.  No,  I  did  not.     I  noticed  another  thing  about  it 

Q.  What  was  that  ? 

A.  That  it  smelled  bad  and  was  rusty. 


108 

y  Mr.  ATHEETON: 

Q.  Did  you  observe  any  connection  between  the  absence  of  brine  and 
tbe  badness  of  the  pork? 
A.  I  could  not  say  that  I  did. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  In  regard  to  the  flour,  you  say,  "  The  flour  was  in  the  single  sack, 
without  any  brand  whatever,"  and  that  you  "  afterward  saw  in  the 
warehouse,  apparently  put  up  in  the  same  way  and  entirely  without 
brands,  a  considerable  number  of  sacks.'7  About  how  many  sacks  did 
you  see  there  in  the  warehouse  in  single  sacks  without  brands  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  the  exact  number. 

Q,  Twenty  or  thirty  ? 

A.  Possibly  not  as  many  as  that.  I  could  not  say  the  number  exactly ; 
but,  approximately,  fifteen  or  twenty. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  considerable  amount  of  flour  there,  Professor  ? 

A.  There  was  not. 

Q.  How  much  in  all  should  you  think  ? 

A.  I  don't  recollect.  I  have  in  mind  one  pile  I  saw,  and  that  is  the 
one  I  refer  to.  There  may  have  been  other  piles  in  other  parts  of  the 
warehouse  that  I  did  not  notice,  but  I  think  not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  did  you  examine  the  quality  of  that  Hour  you  saw  in  the 
warehouse  J? 
A.  I  did  not. 
Q.  You  cannot  say,  tlieu,  what  kind  of  flour  it  was  ? 

A.  NO. 

Q.  You  go  on  to  say  that  you  saw  flour  in  three  different  Indian 
lodges,  and  all  appeared  to  be  of  the  same  quality  as  that  you  saw  is 
sued  at  the  Indian  agency,  and  essentially  the  same  as  the  sample  Red 
Cloud  had  given  you,  although  you  made  no  direct  comparison  between 
them.  Now,  did  you  test  that  flour  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  whether  I  did  or  not.  I  think  I  did,  but  I  am 
not  sure. 

Q.  Did  it  appear  sour,  or  musty,  or  spoiled  ? 

A.  It  appeared  to  be  very  poor  flour  ;  it  was  sticky  flour  and  dark  in 
color. 

Q.  You  also  state  that  you  "  learn  from  good  authority  that  this  con 
tract  could  not  be  honestly  filled  according  to  the  accepted  sample  at 
the  price  paid  "  for  this  flour.  I  believe  in  New  York  you  gave  us  the 
names  of  persons  by  whom  you  expected  to  prove  this  fact.  Have  you 
any  further  information  on  the  subject  since  that  time  ? 

A.  Nothing  further,  so  far  as  that  particular  point  is  concerned.  I 
will  say  that  I  have  here  a  sample  of  flour  that  Red  Cloud  gave  me, 
and  also  a  sample  on  which  the  contract  was  made.  If  the  commis 
sioners  desire  it,  I  will  show  it  to  you  ? 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Yes,  we  would  like  to  see  it.     [Samples  exhibited.]     Where  did 
you  get  that  sample  that  the  contract  is  let  upon? 
Q.  From  the  Government  inspector  at  Cheyenne. 
Q.  Who  is  he  ? 
A.  Mr.  Coakley. 


109 


By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 


Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  that  flour  at  all,  beyond  the  sample  given  you 
by  Bed  Cloud  ? 

A.  Not  Eed  Cloud's  flour.  I  stated  here,  as  you  will  find,  that  I  was 
at  the  issue  and  saw  the  flour  delivered.  "And  my  attention  was  again 
directed  to  the  subject  by  seeing  a  sack  of  flour,  which  an  Indian  woman 
had  just  received  and  was  carrying  away,  burst  open  and  part  of  its  con 
tents  fall  on  the  ground."  That  I  examined.  I  also  say,  "I  afterward 
saw  flour  in  three  different  Indian  lodges,  and  all  appeared  to  be  of  the 
same  quality  as  that  I  saw  issued  at  the  agency  f  and  that  it  was  all 
dark  in  color  and  poor  in  grade. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  this  sample  Eed  Cloud  gave  you  a  fair  sample  of  the 
flour  you  saw  issued  at  the  agency? 

A.  So  far  as  I  can  compare  the  two  by  my  eye,  I  should  think  so ; 
certainly  the  color  is  the  same. 

Q.  Have  you  had  much  experience  in  examining  and  comparing 
samples  of  flour  ? 

A.  Very  little. 

Q.  Now,  you  state  that  "  this  sample  of  flour  is  the  only  sample,  of  all 
the  supplies  purchased  last  year,  that  the  Department  retained,  by 
which  to  compare  the  supplies  actually  delivered  to  the  Indians  and 
thus  prevent  fraud."  You  got  this  sample  you  have  of  flour  from  the 
inspector,  did  you  not  ? 

A.  I  did;  from  the  acting  inspector  in  the  employ  of  the  Department. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  In  the  employ  of  Major  Long  ? 
A.  Yes. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  inspectors  of  sugar  or  coffee  or  tobacco 
each  retained  samples,  as  did  this  inspector  of  flour  ? 

A.  I  think  they  did  not.  They  stated  so  in  New  York.  We  had  that 
point  up  in  New  York  very  fully. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  that  in  New  York  the  inspectors  each  pro 
duced  us  samples  ? 

A.  Not  the  original  samples.  If  I  remember  rightly,  there  was  only 
one  of  the  original  samples  upon  which  the  contract  was  based,  the 
others  being  samples  taken  out  of  the  supplies  that  were  shipped. 
Having  applied  to  the  Department  to  know  whether  any  samples  were 
retained,  and  having  been  informed  by  the  Department  that  a  sample  of 
the  flour  was  retained,  and  that  they  knew  of  no  others,  I  stated  what 
1  have  in  the  pamphlet.  Commissioner  Smith  appeared  before  the  com 
mission  in  New  York,  and  stated  that  he  would  produce  the  samples  and 
satisfy  the  commission  that  they  were  the  original  samples — that  is  in 
the  testimony — but  when  the  inspectors  came  to  bring  in  the  samples, 
I  think  only  one  of  them  proved  to  be  the  original  sample.  By  original 
samples,  I  mean  the  samples  upon  which  the  contract  was  awarded. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  They  produced  samples  of  the  goods  shipped  ? 

WITNESS.  In  some  cases.  I  will  say  here,  in  addition,  that  the  in 
spectors  who  retained  accidentally  those  samples  have  now  nothing  to 
do  with  the  Department;  are  not  in  the  employ  of  the  Department. 
The  point  I  wish  to  make  is  this:  When  I  applied  to  the  Department 
for  samples  of  the  supplies,  I  applied  to  the  clerk  of  the  Indian  Bureau 


110 

who  lias  charge  of  the  shipping  supplies  from  New  York.  He  showed  me 
samples  of  the  goods  purchased  this  year.  When  I  inquired  of  him 
where  the  samples  were  upon  which  the  goods  of  last  year  had  been 
purchased,  he  could  give  me  no  information  definitely.  He  did  not 
know  that  any  had  been  retained,  although  he  had  charge  of  shipping 
the  goods.  I  then  applied  to  the  Department,  and  I  have  a  communica 
tion  from  them  in  which  they  refer  me  to  this  sample  of  flour  retained, 
and  said  I  could  see  that ;  but  no  other  of  the  original  samples  were 
known  to  be  retained.  In  New  York  that  matter  came,  up,  and  of  the 
samples  then  brought  in,  after  Commissioner  Smith  had  said  that  he 
would  bring  the  original  samples,  if  I  remember  rightly,  only  one  of 
them,  the  coffee,  was  the  original  sample  on  which  the  purchase  was 
made.  That  is  all  down  in  the  testimony,  and  I  refer  you  to  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Professor,  you  say  that  this  man  French,  at  Cheyenne,  who  re 
tained  the  sample  of  flour  by  direction  of  Commissioner  Smith,  was  "  a 
leading  member  of  the  Indian  Eiug."  Do  you  know  whether  Commis 
sioner  Smith  knew  that  fact  or  not  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  How  did  you  learn  that  French  was  a  member  of  the  Indian  Eing  ? 
Did  he  tell  you  so  ? 

A.  He  did  not  tell  me  so,  but  I  have  known  Mr.  French  for  quite  a 
number  of  years.  I  have  been  in  Cheyenne  a  good  deal,  and  I  think  I 
have  had  a  pretty  good  opportunity  of  knowing  who  are  the  leading  men 
in  the  Indian  ring  in  Cheyenne.  I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying,  if  there 
is  such  a  thing  as  an  Indian  Eing,  that  Mr.  French  is  a  prominent  mem 
ber  of  it  in  Cheyenne. 

Q.  What  did  you  ever  see  him  doing  about  Indian  affairs  ? 

A.  He  was  up  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  when  I  was  there;  with  Mr. 
McCann,  whom  I  understand  is  his  partner. 

Q.  You  understand  he  is  a  partner  of  McCann? 

A.  I  understand  so.  He  came  up  to  the  agency  with  McCauu,  and 
was  there  part  of  the  time  during  my  visit.  I  had  talks  with  him  then 
about  Indian  matters,  as  I  had  before,  and  I  have  no  hesitation  in  say 
ing  that  I  deem  my  information  reliable. 

Q.  If  Commissioner  Smith  did  not  know  French,  nor  know  of  his  con 
nection  with  the  Indian  Eing,  then  his  request  to  him  to  retain  a  sample 
of  flour  would  not,  to  your  mind,  indicate  Commissioner  Smith's  affinity 
for  the  Indian  Eing,  would  it  ? 

A.  If  he  knew  nothing  of  the  relations  of  French  to  the  store-keeper, 
and  the  freight-contractor,  and  the  agent,  then  I  have  no  hesitation  in 
saying  it  would  not. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  now  present,  as  evidence  on  the  sugar-question,  a 
statement  from  the  inspector.  After  our  meeting  in  New  York,  the 
Government  inspector,  Mr.  Caleb  B.  Kneval,  examined,  in  New  Haven, 
the  sample  of  sugar  that  Eed  Cloud  gave  me,  and  compared  it  with  the 
sample  of  the  sugar  which  he  shipped  to  Eed  Cloud  agency.  I  will 
read  the  certificate : 

NEW  HA  VEX,  August  2,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR:  The  sample  of  sugar  shown  me  bj-  you  to-day,  which  you  inform  me  was 
given  you  by  Red  Cloud  to  show  to  the  President,  I  have  carefully  compared  with  the 
sample  of  sugar  reserved  by  me  when  it  was  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency  last  year, 
and  I  find  it  does  not  correspond,  being  of  an  inferior  grade  and  different  from  any  of 
the  sugar  shipped  by  me. 
Yours,  truly, 

CALEB  B.  KNEVAL,  Inspector. 
Prof.  O.  C.  MARSH. 


Ill 

Now  to  the  coffee.  I  also  lay  before  the  commission  the  original  sam 
ple  of  coffee  which  Bed  Cloud  gave  me,  and  I  will  say  that  I  have  com 
pared  it  with  the  sample  of  the  coffee  on  which  the  purchase  was  made, 
and  I  find  it  essentially  the  same,  so  far  as  the  grains  are  concerned. 
[Presented  sample  of  coffee.] 

Q.  You  did  not  find  in  the  original  sample  so  many  black  grains  in  so 
small  a  quantity  as  you  do  here"? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  did.  I  present  also  a  portion  of  the  original  sample 
of  tobacco  that  Bed  Cloud  gave  me.  [Presented  sample  of  tobacco.] 

Q.  You  say  that  these  poor  Indians  were  "  on  the  verge  of  starvation 
through  the  rascality  of  the  Indian  Bing."  How  do  you  make  that  ap 
pear,  and  who  is  the  rascal  f 

A.  I  have  no  additional  testimony  on  that  subject. 

Q.  Now,  you  say,  Professor,  that  "the  supply  of  food  purchased  by 
the  Government,  carefully  and  honestly  delivered,  would  have  prevented 
all  this  suffering."  What  information  have  you  on  that  subject,  farther 
than  you  have  given  us  heretofore  ? 

A.  I  have  nothing  in  addition. 

Q.  You  cannot  say  that  any  of  the  supplies  of  food  purchased  by  the 
Government  were  not  delivered  there  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  else  who  has  that  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  could  not,  at  this  moment,  give  you  any  additional  information 
on  that  point. 

Q.  When  you  state  "  that  the  Indian  Bureau  has  for  years,  knowingly, 
paid  to  a  member  of  the  Indian  Bing  over  fifteen  thousand  dollars  per 
annum  for  service  that  was  not  performed,"  have  you  any  knowledge  or 
information  on  that  subject,  other  than  you  have  given  us  heretofore, 
going  to  substantiate  that  charge  ? 

A.  The  only  additional  point  I  can  now  give  you  on  that  subject  is  to 
refer  you  to  the  report  of  Messrs.  Kemble  and  Alvord,  who  give  the 
distance  at  1GO  miles,  instead  of  212.  I  have  nothing  more  beyond  that 
to  offer. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Where  were  your  headquarters  during  the  period  that  you  were 
at  Bed  Cloud  agency  before  your  departure  for  the  bone-fields  ? 

A.  My  camp  was  just  above  Camp  Bobiuson,  on  the  White  Biver. 

Q.  How  many  persons  were  in  your  party  besides  your  escort  ? 

A.  The  party  that  came  on  from  Fort  Laramie  consisted  of  General 
Bradley,  Lieutenant  Hay,  his  adjutant,  Captain  Mix  and  his  company 
of  cavalry,  Colonel  Stanton,  the  paymaster  and  his  outfit,  Mr.  Wolcott, 
United  States  marshal  of  Wyoming  Territory,  and  a  few  others.  WTe 
all  camped  together. 

Q.  And  your  camp  was  how  far  from  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  It  was  just  above  Camp  Bobinsou. 

Q.  About  a  mile  and  a  half? 

A.  Just  about  that. 

Q.  How  many  times  did  you  go  into  the  agency  buildings  or  any  of 
them  f 

A.  I  was  there  every  day  until  I  started  off  for  the  north.  I  spent 
most  of  my  time  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Wrill  you  tell  us  whether  or  not  among  the  military  men  there  was 
frequent  reference  to  this  flag-staff  matter  at  that  time  1 

A.  There  was  especially,  as  it  directly  affected  my  expedition. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  could  judge,  was  there  a  feeling  among  the  military 


112 

officers  that  by  that  outbreak  the  military  post  as  well  as  the  agency 
had  been  put  in  peril  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  positively  whether  that  point  came  up.  Of 
course,  Lieutenant  Crawford  and  his  men,  who  went  up  there,  were  in 
great  danger,  and  among  the  ladies  of  the  garrison  there  was  great  fear 
of  the  Indians,  because  it  was  thought  they  were  so  numerous,  while 
the  troops  were  so  few,  that  they  could  have  swept  the  whole  post  away 
in  an  hour  if  they  chose. 

Q.  So  that  there  was  a  somewhat  excited  state  of  feeling  or  fear  of  the 
Indians,  both  at  the  post  and  the  agency  I 

A.  I  think  there  was,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  either  of  the  officers  there  said  anything 
about  having  made  an  arrangement  with  Saville  by  which  that  flag 
staff  should  be  put  up,  or  whether  Saville  and  the  commanding  officer 
had  made  such  an  arrangement? 

A.  I  heard  nothing  on  that  point. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  a  statement  to  the  effect  that  it  was  understood  by 
the  commanding  officer  and  Saville  that  it  was  proposed  to  put  it  up 
upon  the  bastion,  as  it  is  called,  for  the  purpose  of  notifying  the  post  if 
any  danger  should  occur  ? 

A.  I  did  not  hear  that. 

Q.  In  your  judgment  ought  there  not  to  be  some  mode  of  communi 
cation  between  the  two  places,  the  post  and  the  agency,  by  telegraph, 
or  signal,  or  something  of  that  kind  ? 

A.  I  should  think  it  would  be  very  proper. 

Q.  Is  it  your  idea  that  the  error  in  that  flag-staff  matter  was  in  the 
attempt  to  put  up  a  pole  at  all,  or  in  not  putting  it  up  after  he  attempted 
it.  You  speak  of  it  as  an  "act  of  folly,"  and  of  course  his  conduct 
ought  not  to  be  put  in  a  wrong  light  either  way.  If  the  act  itself  was 
a  proper  one  he  should  have  credit  for  it ;  if  it  was  an  improper  one  it 
should  stand  as  you  put  it.  What  do  you  now  say  about  it? 

A.  There  was  nothing  improper  in  itself  in  putting  up  something  to 
put  a  flag  or  signal  on.  I  think  that  would  be  a  very  good  idea.  In  my 
judgment  the  fault  consisted,  first,  in  not  ascertaining  beforehand 
whether  there  would  be  hostility  shown  by  the  Indians  if  he  attempted 
such  a  thing,  and,  secondly,  in  not  carrying  out  the  undertaking  when 
once  commenced. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  In  regard  to  your  first  point,  have  you  any  means  of  knowing  what 
pains  he  took,  or  whether  he  took  any  pains  beforehand  to  ascertain  the 
state  of  feeling  among  the  Indians  in  regard  to  the  proposed  erection  of 
the  flag-staff? 

A.  I  have  no  means  of  judging. 

Q.  Well,  would  you  count  out  the  first  point  ? 

A.  No  ;  because  1  think  the  agent  should  have  known  the  feelings  of 
the  Indians  about  a  matter  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Then  you  assume  that  he  did  not  have  any  means  of  knowing  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  What  knowledge  had  you  of  Dr.  Saville's  purpose  in  the  erection 
of  the  flag-staff? 

A.  Nothing  definite. 

Mr.  ATHEKTON.  Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to  have  it  said  to 
Professor  Marsli  at  the  close  of  this  examination  that  we  would  be  very 
glad  if  he  would  give  us  as  early  as  possible  whatever  corroborative  tes 
timony  he  can  on  any  of  these  points. 


113 

Professor  MARSH.  When  Dr.  Bevier  comes  before  you  be  will  cor 
roborate  some  points,  and  if  Mr.  Alvord  comes  I  should  like  to  ask  him 
some  questions,  but  possibly  his  statement  which  he  has  sent  you  may 
cover  the  whole  ground.  When  these  witnesses  are  through,  I  may 
have  a  few  more  points  to  add,  but  not  many. 

After  the  testimony  was  closed,  Professor  Marsh  presented  in  writing 
the  following  supplementary  statement: 

In  regard  to  witnesses  in  the  West,  I  have  now  no  more  to  offer,  al 
though  some  that  I  considered  especially  important,  for  example,  Gen 
eral  John  E.  Smith,  Rev.  S.  D.  Hinman,  Dr.  J.  Irwin,  Lieut.  W.  L.  Car 
penter,  J.  S.  Collins,  and  R.  E.  Strahoru,  the  commission  did  not  find. 
These  witnesses  all  have  personal  knowledge  of  matters  stated  in  my 
pamphlet,  and  I  believe  their  testimony  would  have  cleared  up  several 
points  now  in  doubt.  One  other  thing  should,  I  think,  go  on  the  record. 
The  influence  of  the  Indian  ring  during  the  investigation  was  so  great 
at  Cheyenne  and  at  the  agency  that  many  who  had  information  dared 
not  testify.  One  witness  was  afraid  even  to  write  or  telegraph  to  me  di 
rectly,  and  was  compelled  to  communicate  through  a  friend  in  Ohama.  Of 
the  seven  ex-employes  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  whose  names  and  addresses 
I  gave  the  commission  as  witnesses,  and  who  had  much  personal  knowl 
edge  of  the  affairs  at  the  agency  during  the  last  two  years,  only  one 
appeared  before  the  commission.  He  had  been  re-employed  by  Agent 
Saville,  and  hence  was  not  inclined  to  testify  against  him.  The  other  six 
ex-employe's  who  were  known*  to  have  information  of  mismanagement, 
if  not  fraud,  at  the  agency,  were  kept  out  of  the  reach  of  the  commis 
sion,  as  I  have  good  reason  to  believe,  by  those  interested  in  concealing 
the  true  state  of  affairs  there.  These  facts,  in  connection  with  the  im 
portant  one  that  my  visit  to  the  agency  was  unexpected  and  in  a  differ 
ent  fiscal  year  from  the  visit  of  the  commission,  are  worthy  of  considera 
tion. 


FIFTH- AVENUE  HOTEL,  NEW  YORK, 

Wednesday,  July  21,  1873. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  AARON  P.  WILCOX. 

I  reside  at  347  Fifth  Avenue,  New  York.  I  have  retired  from  busi 
ness.  I  have  been  in  the  dry-goods  business  in  New  York  for  about 
thirty  years.  I  received  an  appointment  about  the  last  of  July,  1874, 
to  inspect  Indian  goods.  I  first  inspected  the  general  dry-goods  here  in 
New  York.  I  was  then  called  to  Philadelphia,  and  inspected  about 
eighty-five  bales  of  blankets.  I  received  a  case  of  samples  there  from 
which  the  contract  was  given.  I  examined  those  eighty-five  bales  for 
several  different  tribes.  These  first  eighty-five  bales  were  fully  up  to 
the  samples.  I  saw  this  mark  on  the  blankets,  "  U.  S.  I.  D.,"  and  could 
not  exactly  understand  how  it  was  put  on,  but  I  suspected  by  acid.  I 
took  pains  to  test  their  strength,  fearing  that  it  might  weaken  the  blan 
ket.  At  that  time  it  did  not  penetrate  through  or  into  the  thread.  The 
blanket  was  perfectly  strong.  I  asked  Dobson  how  he  did  it.  His  an 
swer  was,  "  That  is  rny  secret."  I  found  none  of  them  tender  from  the 
8  I  F 


114 

marks  at  that  time.  The  blankets  were  up  to  the  sample  in  quality,  up 
to  the  proposals  in  weight,  as  I  understood.  I  saw  them  marked  and 
shipped.  I  received  bills  of  lading  and  compared  them  with  the  bills, 
and  they  put  the  bills  and  bills  of  lading  into  the  hands  of  Mr.  Smith's 
clerk.  I  came  to  New  York  about  the  10th  of  August  and  examined  the 
balance  of  dry-goods.  I  then  went  back  to  Philadelphia  about  the  1st 
of  September.  I  examined  the  balance  then,  about  two  hundred  bales, 
as  near  as  I  can  remember.  I  found,  on  commencing  the  examination 
the  last  time,  that  the  blankets  then  delivered  were  not  fully  up  to  the 
sample.  I  examined  these  goods  in  a  mercantile  point  of  view,  as  though 
I  was  buying  them  for  myself.  The  blankets  were  as  good  for  service  as 
the  sample,  but  not  up  to  it  in  a  mercantile  point  of  view.  The  difference 
was  in  the  finish.  The  blankets  were  not  properly  teazled ;  the  specs  were 
not  cleaned  out;  they  were  not  as  clean  as  the  samples.  The  size  and 
weight  were  fully  up  to  the  Government  requirement.  The  samples  were 
heavier  than  the  proposals  called  for.  The  goods  furnished  weighed  up 
to  the  requirements  of  the  Government  contract,  but  not  up  to  the  sam 
ples.  The  blankets  weighed  up  to  the  invoice.  I  had  samples  of  the 
goods.  I  was  told  what  the  contract  was.  I  was  told  by  the  clerk  of 
the  Commissioner  what  the  weights  required  by  the  proposals  were.  I 
had  not  the  contract  or  proposals  before  me.  The  clerk  of  the  Commis 
sioner  told  me  verbally  the  weights  required.  I  should  think  on  a  lighter 
blanket  there  was  one  quarter  of  a  pound  difference  between  goods  fur 
nished  and  the  sample ;  on  a  6-pouud  blanket  about  a  half  a  pound  dif 
ference  ;  on  an  8-pound  blanket  about  three-quarters  of  a  pound  differ 
ence — all  less  than  sample.  In  each  case  the  weights  were  equal  to  the 
invoice  weights  on  the  bill.  The  price  was  by  the  pound.  When  I 
noticed  this  difference  in  finish,  I  communicated  it  to  the  Department 
through  this  clerk.  The  answer  was,  in  substance,  that  if  I  thought 
these  blankets  suitable  for  the  purpose  to  accept  them,  making  proper 
deductions  from  the  price.  I  thought  the  blankets  just  as  good  for 
service  as  the  sample,  and  claimed  the  deduction  on  account  of  mercan 
tile  value.  I  think  the  deduction  amounted  to  about  $5,000  or  over.  A 
deduction  was  made  on  the  last  lot  inspected — about  two  hundred.  That 
deduction  would  make  them  fully  up  to  the  sample  in  quality,  in  a  mer 
cantile  point  of  view.  They  were  up  in  weight,  as  I  understood  it  and 
as  I  was  told  by  the  clerk.  The  Government  proposals  showed  the 
weights;  the  samples  furnished  me  showed  the  quality.  In  a  mercantile 
point  of  view,  in  proposals  by  the  Government  for  blankets  weighing  5, 
6,  7,  and  8  pounds,  if  the  blankets  are  delivered  that  weight  and  corre 
spond  in  quality  with  the  samples  furnished,  they  should  be  entirely 
satisfactory  to  the  Government,  especially  if  paid  for  by  the  pound. 
The  mark  in  the  center,  UU.  S.  I.  D.,"  seemed  to  have  been  recently  put 
on.  The  last  lot  were  made  within  thirty  days.  I  examined  the  mark 
carefully,  having  some  fear  that  it  might  injure  the  blanket.  I  exam 
ined  the  goods  to  see  if  the  marking  had  made  the  blanket  tender,  and 
found  it  had  not.  The  colors  were  blue,  white,  scarlet,  and  green. 
Probably  the  second  lot  were  marked  after  I  examined  the  first  lot. 
None  of  the  second  lot  were  in  the  store  when  I  examined  the  first,  as 
I  understood.  The  first  lot  were  shipped  in  advance  of  the  second, 
because  they  had  to  go  a  greater  distance.  The  last  lot  was  being  shipped 
from  the  1st  to  the  20th  of  September.  Some  of  the  blankets  were  up  to 
the  sample  in  finish  ;  some  were  not.  All  came  up  to  the  sample  in  size. 
I  think  in  this  case  the  size  of  blankets  increased  as  the  weight  did. 
On  each  sample  there  was  a  ticket  with  the  weight  marked  on  it,  and 
the  goods  received  corresponded  to  the  mark.  Sample  blankets  weie 


115 

heavier  than  the  mark  on  the  ticket.  I  was  guided  by  the  ticket  and 
by  what  the  clerks  said.  The  ticket  on  the  sample  guided  me  as  to  the 
weight,  and  the  sample  as  to  quality.  The  bills  of  lading  will  show 
where  they  were  shipped  to.  It'  it  is  made  to  appear  that  holes  came 
where  these  marks  were,  the  acid,  in  my  opinion,  may  have  done  it. 
The  mark  was  only  on  the  nap  of  the  wool,  and  did  not  penetrate  the 
thread.  I  examined  the  blankets  with  a  microscope  to  fully  determine 
the  quality.  They  were  a  remarkably  good  lot,  at  a  low  price,  and  could 
not  have  been  bought  in  the  market  at  the  price  they  were  delivered. 
I  don't  know  how  the  marks  were  put  on,  whether  with  aeid  or  not. 
The  first  twenty  years  that  I  was  in  business  I  imported  and  dealt 
largely  in  blankets.  T  think  my  knowledge  of  blankets  is  as  good  as  it 
ever  was.  Having  been  instructed  to  make  the  proper  deduction,  I  was 
also  instructed  to  call  in  some  other  person  if  I  thought  necessary.  I 
did  call  in  another  gentleman,  who  inspected  goods  in  Philadelphia.  I 
don't  remember  his  name.  This  instruction,  I  understood  through  Mr. 
Hay  den,  came  from  Commissioner  Smith.  I  got  a  discount  of  $900  or 
so  in  red  flannel  shirts  in  the  same  way  that  I  got  a  discount  on 
blankets.  There  was  a  deduction  of  about  5  cents  a  yard  on  a  large 
lot  of  Milton  cloth  from  a  firm  in  Hartford  ;  also  16  cents  apiece  on  red 
shirts  from  Clmfflin  &  Co.,  New  York,  a  month  or  two  afterward,  equal 
in  service,  but  not  up  to  the  sample  in  finish.  I  called  in  a  man  from 
Devlin  &  Co.,  large  dealers  in  shirts.  When  I  discovered  that  tlie  shirts 
varied,  I  suspended  operations  until  I  got  instructions  from  the  clerk — 
which  I  understood  were  from  Commissioner  Smith — to  accept  them  if  I 
thought  them  equally  serviceable,  making  the  proper  deduction  for  lack 
of  quality  in  sllirts. 


TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  A.  ROBINSON. 

I  live  at  261  Putnam  avenue,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y.  I  am  a  dealer  and 
manufacturer  of  tobacco  at  122  Water  street,  and  have  been  in  the 
business  about  eighteen  years.  On  the  3d  of  July,  1874,  I  was  called 
upon  to  inspect  tobacco  for  the  Government  by  F.  H.  Smith,  as  I  after 
ward  learned,  not  being  acquainted  with  him  then.  I  was  called  upon 
to  go  up  and  examine  samples;  I  looked  over  as  many  as  one  hundred 
and  reduced  them  down  to  seven  samples,  and  then  reduced  the  seven 
to  two.  I  then  told  those  present,  (I  knew  none  of  them,)  that  those 
two  pieces  were  suitable  goods ;  were  fine  quality,  and  would  keep  in 
any  climate.  Mr.  Smith  said  he  would  take  both  lots,  some  of  each, 
did  not  know  the  owners  of  any  of  the  samples.  Samples,  as  I  under 
stood,  were  furnished  by  those  bidding  to  furnish  the  goods  for  the^Indi- 
aus :  I  then  learned  that  one  sample  was  made  by  P.  Lorillard  &  Co.,  of 
New  York,  and  the  other  by  Dohan  Carroll  &  Co.,  of  New  York. 
About  the  last  of  July  I  was  notified  to  corne  to  the  Indian  warehouse 
in  this  city.  I  went,  and  was  told  that  the  tobacco  to  be  furnished  by 
P.  Lorillard  &  Co.  was  now*  ready  for  delivery  ;  I  was  notified  to  have 
a  stencil  cut,  with  my  name  as  inspector  of  supplies ;  the  stencil  cut  was 
"  W.  A.  Eobinson,  inspector  of  supplies,  August  17,  1874."  I  went  to 
the  factory  of  P.  Lorillard  &  Co.,  and  examined  the  tobacco  furnished  j 
they  gave  me  the  sample  on  which  the  bid  was  accepted  ;  I  have 
original  sample  here ;  I  saw  the  tobacco  manufactured,  at  the  requei 
of  P.  Lorillard  &  Co.,  and  was  at  the  factory  every  two  days;  1 
ined  two  hundred  and  one  boxes  of  manufactured  tobacco.  JU,»u 


116 

pounds;  46  packages,  5,000  pounds,  I  marked  and  shipped  to  the 
Coinanches  and  Kiowas ;  14  packages,  1,800  pounds,  I  shipped  to  the 
Wachitas ;  6  boxes,  400  pounds,  to  the  Uiutas  ;  5  boxes,  300  pounds,  to 
the  Los  Pinas  ;  10  boxes,  600  pounds,  to  the  White  Eiver  agency  ;  37 
boxes,  4,000  pounds,  to  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  ;  83  boxes, 
9,000  pounds,  to  the  Navajoes.  All  of  this  from  P.  Lorillard  &  Co.  I 
took  out  bills  of  lading  and  saw  all  shipments  myself;  I  got  the  invoices 
from  P.  Lorillard  &  Co.  examined,  and  found  them  to  compare 
with  my  account  within  half  a  pound.  I  accepted  it ;  I  weighed  every 
box;  I  turned  over  the  invoices  with  my  certificate  of  examination 
attached  to  each  invoice.  [Mr.  Robinson  here  produced  a  draught  of 
certificate  of  examination.]  About  the  middle  of  August  I  was  told  to 
examine  tobacco  furnished  by  Dohan  Carroll  &  Co.  The  sample  pro 
duced  here  has  been  in  my  safe,  wrapped  up  in  a  paper,  since  my  exam 
ination.  Sample  produced  is  sample  of  tobacco  furnished.  It  is  better 
than  the  tobacco  on  which  the  bid  was  made.  1  had  a  sample  on  which 
bid  was  made  furnished  me  by  the  Indian  Department,  which  I  returned 
to  them  with  sample  of  tobacco  furnished.  Tobacco  sent  to  a  dry  cli 
mate  will  not  become  wet ;  a  dry  climate  is  very  favorable  for  the  pres 
ervation  of  tobacco.  About  the  middle  of  August,  1874,  I  was  notified 
to  come  to  the  department  at  New  York,  to  get  Dohan  Carroll  &  Co.'s 
sample  and  examine  tobacco.  I  examined  these  goods  as  follows :  89 
boxes,  7,000 pounds, for  Whetstone  Sioux;  76  boxes,  6,000  pounds,  Grand 
Eiver  Sioux;  13  boxes,  1,000  pounds,  Sautee  Sioux;  25  boxes,  2,000 
pounds,  Yankton  Sioux ;  38  boxes,  3,000  pounds,  Upper  Missouri  Sioux ; 
13  boxes,  1,000  pounds,  Arickaree  Sioux;  50  boxes,  4,000  pounds,  Black- 
feet,  &c.;  38  boxes,  3,000  pounds,  Crows;  9  boxes,  700  pounds,  Poucas; 
64  boxes,  5,000  pounds,  Sioux  Fort  Peck ;  89  boxes,  7,000  pounds,  Red 
Cloud  Sioux ;  15  boxes,  1,200  pounds,  Sisseton  Sioux ;  in  all,  520  boxes, 
40,900  pounds,  I  examined,  weighed,' tared,  shipped,  and  took  the  bills 
of  lading  myself.  Went  to  the  pier  and  saw  it  done.  I  shipped  Red 
Cloud  tobacco  by  Union  Line,  marked  thus:  "  J.  J.  Saville,  U.  S.  agent, 
Red  Cloud  agency,  via  Omaha  and  Cheyenne.  Union  Line,  care  of  C.  F. 
F.  line,  Chicago.  (Pier  38  North  River.)"  Whetsone  Sioux,  Spotted 
Tail:  «  E.  A.  Howard,  U.  S.  agent,  Ft.  Randall,  Da.,  via  N.  Y.  &  Hud 
son  River  R.  R.,  care  Ward's  Line.  Buffalo,  via  Duluth  and  Sioux  City. 
(Shipped  at  St  John's  Park,  N.  Y.)"  The  sample  of  tobacco  shipped  to 
Red  Cloud  agency  here  produced  is  a  fair  sample  from  one  of  the  boxes. 
The  whole  shipment  was  equal  in  quality.  It  is  a  very  nice  piece  of 
tobacco  for  the  money,  47  or  47J  cents  per  pound ;  sound  and  merchant 
able  tobacco;  sold  100  boxes  of  the  same  quality  for  50  cents  per  pound 
afterward.  The  Indian  Department  were  very  fortunate  in  their  pur 
chase  last  year,  in  way  of  price — first  quality  of  navy  tobacco.  Niue- 
teen-twentieths  of  the  tobacco  made  in  this  country  and  consumed  here 
is  navy  tobacco.  In  the  South  we  lose  the  percentage.  It  is  either 
smoking  or  chewing  tobacco ;  used  for  shewing  as  well  as  for  smoking 
tobacco;  very  strong,  heavy  tobacco;  all  dark  tobacco  like  this; 
none  of  it  was  light.  I  saw  the  tobacco  all  the  way  through  the  manu 
facturing  and  boxing.  I  examined  one  box  in  twenty,  taken  at  random. 
This  is  called  black  navy  tobacco,  12-inch  plug — 12  by  3.  All  of  that 
shipped  by  me  was  12  by  3.  The  moisture  in  this  tobacco,  when  taken  to 
a  dry  climate,  ought  to  dry  out,  become  hard — not  much  in  winter.  Licorice 
and  sugar  are  used  to  sweeten.  It  is  impossible  that  a  fair  sample  of 
this  tobacco,  three  months  after  it  was  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency  by 
me,  in  a  dry  climate,  would,  when  broken  open,  contain  liquid  that  would 
drip  out.  I  know  of  no  way  to  produce  such  a  result — unless  it  were 


117 

wet.  The  outside  would  be  likely  to  puff  up  when  wet.  I  never  saw 
any  tobacco,  which,  when  broken  open,  would  drip  a  liquid.  It  isn't 
possible;  can't  rot  tobacco;  never  heard  of  any  such  thing.  It  will 
mould  but  not  rot.  Water  will  damage  it ;  should  not  be  kept  where  it 
is  damp.  I  would  have  selected  dryer  tobacco  to  be  sent  to  the  Indians 
because  they  use  it  only  for  smoking.  Tobacco  sweetened  with  sirup  or 
molasses  is  likely  to  sour  in  a  warm  climate,  and  will  often  sour  in  a 
temperate  climate.  None  of  the  tobacco  shipped  and  examined  by  me 
was  sweetened  with  sirup  or  molasses,  but  was  sweetened  with  the  best 
of  licorice  and  sugar. 


TESTIMONY  OF  CALEB  B.  KNEVAL. 

I  reside  at  No.  122  East  Thirty-sixth  street,  New  York  City.  I  was, 
in  1874,  a  merchant ;  am  now  comptroller  of  Woodlawn  Cemetery.  I 
was  asked  by  Commissioner  Smith,  through  a  clerk  or  some  other 
person  for  him,  if  I  would  be  willing  to  decide  the  bids  on  sugar  and 
coffee.  I  was  unacquainted  with  the  Commissioner  or  the  gentleman 
who  came  to  me.  He  asked  me  if  I  was  interested  in  any  way  in  bids, 
and  was  familiar  with  qualities  of  sugar  and  coffee.  I  said  I  was 
not  interested  in  bids ;  was  familiar  with  sugar  and  coffee.  This  was 
about  July,  1874.  I  took  with  me  Mr.  Barr,  of  the  firm,  of  Howell 
Barr  &  Co.,  dealers  in  coffee,  &c.  I  had  no  difficulty  in  determining  the 
bids  on  sugar.  Found  one  sample  (H.  K.  Thurber  &  Co.)  was  cheapest, 
and  accepted  the  whole  that  offered,  only  a  small  portion  of  the  amount 
required.  Balance  from  E.  C.  Knight  &  Co.,  of  Philadelphia,  refiners — 
like  the  sample  here  shown —  average  sample  of  whole  lot  and  variation 
from  best  to  poorest  not  more  than  one-quarter  cent  a  pound.  Commis 
sioner  Smith  asked  me  to  see  that  all  sugar  and  coffee  shipped  corres 
ponded  exactly  with  the  samples  accepted,  after  the  bids  were  accepted 
by  me,  to  which  I  assented.  E.  C.  Knight  told  me  the  sugar  was  ready 
for  delivery,  also  H.  K.  Thurber  &  Co.  Eeceived  shipping-directions 
from  Mr.  Smith's  clerk,  and  went  to  H.  K.  Thurber  &  Co.'s  store,  also  to 
Philadelphia,  to  Knight's  refinery,  and  there  personally  superintended 
the  shipping  of  every  package  of  sugar — saw  that  it  corresponded  with 
samples.  Examined  packages  at  various  times  during  the  process  of 
delivery  and  had  at  least  20  per  cent,  of  the  packages  put  on  the  scales 
to  know  that  they  were  correct.  In  my  opinion  the  sugar  delivered  was 
fully  one  eighth  of  a  cent  per  pound  better  than  the  sample  accepted. 
Each  barrel  bore  on  it  the  brand  of  the  refinery — Knight  &  Co. 
Each  package  was  marked  under  my  own  supervision,  for  the  differ 
ent  agencies ;  marked  with  stencil-plate,  with  full  shipping-directions. 
"  Inspected  by  C.  B.  Kneval "  was  put  on  each  package.  Sugar 
shipped  by  me  from  H.  K.  Thurber  &  Co.  fully  came  up  to  sample.  The 
refiner's  brand  was  upon  each  barrel.  Full  shipping-directions  on 
Thurber's,  under  my  own  supervision.  Twenty  per  cent,  at  least  was 
weighed.  I  saw  the  shipping-receipts  returned,  signed  by  shipping- 
company's  agents.  I  saw  every  barrel  on  the  car,  aud  counted  them 
myself.  In  receiving  instructions  I  was  told  to  do  as  I  would  in  my 
own  case ;  as  though  I  was  receiving  them  for  myself.  In  all  this  matter 
I  was  struck  with  the  pureness  of  the  whole  matter.  There  was  no 
effort  made  by  anybody  to  control  me  in  any  way.  I  was  not  acquainted 
with  anybody  connected  with  the  Indian  affairs.  I  was  a  large  dealer 
in  sugar.  At  the  time  the  award  was  made  I  received  a  letter  from  Mr. 


118 

Smith,  asking  for  the  value  of  coffee  at  that  time.  The  coffee  sent  by 
Mr.  Smith  would  favorably  compare  with  the  sample.  The  price  of  this 
coffee  was  $22.10  per  100  pounds,  a  low  price  for  this  coffee  at  the  time 
of  inspection.  Most  of  the  coffee  sold  in  this  neighborhood  is  roasted  and 
ground  and  sold  to  the  dealers  in  that  form.  Most  of  the  coffee  used  by  the 
roasters  is  of  this  grade  and  below  it.  Never  having  had  anything  to 
do  with  Government  matters  before,  I  was  expecting  some  one  to  suggest 
something  in  somebody's  favor;  but  nothing  of  the  kind  occurred. 
There  was  about  4,000  barrels  inspected  by  me  for  the  Government,  only 
about  150  barrels  of  which  came  from  Thurber.  The  sample  produced 
here  is  a  sample  of  the  sugar  furnished.  Samples  upon  which  bids 
were  accepted  I  have  riot  in  my  possession  now,  but  the  samples  here 
shown  are  one-eighth  per  cent,  better  than  the  sample  on  which  the 
purchase  was  made,  showing  the  delivery  to  be  one-eighth  per  cent, 
better  than  the  bid.  Some  of  the  sugar,  I  remember,  was  marked  for 
the  Bed  Cloud  agency;  I  cannot  say  what  proportion,  but  think  a  con 
siderable  part  of  it.  This  is  a  sample  of  the  coffee  inspected  by  Mr. 
Barr  and  myself.  Mr.  Barr  is  a  disinterested  party  and  a  man  of  expe 
rience  and  good  judgment  as  a  coffee-dealer.  He  is  a  neighbor  of  mine, 
and  at  my  request  inspected  the  coffee.  Mr.  Arnold,  of  the  firm  that 
furnished  the  coffee,  can  give  you  information.  He  stands  at  the  very 
top  of  the  trade. 


TESTIMONY  OF  THOMAS  T.  BARK. 

I  reside  at  273  Carlton  avenue,  Brooklyn  ;  I  do  business  at  114  Water 
street,  New  York.  1  am  a  member  of  the  firm  of  Howell,  Barr  &  Co., 
dealers  in  sirup,  coffee,  and  molasses.  In  July,  1874,  I  was  asked  to 
examine  samples  of  various  grades.  I  went  up  to  Indian  office  and 
examined  samples.  Mr.  Smith  asked  me  to  select  the  best  goods  for  the 
purpose,  and  I  took  the  coffee  of  which  this  is  a  sample.  I  graded  it  as 
good-ordinary.  I  was  sent  for  as  an  expert.  This  is  a  sample  on  which 
bid  was  made  and  accepted.  Some  coffee  was  offered  to  be  delivered  at 
some  Indian  agency  out  West  four  cents  less  than  could  be  furnished 
for  gold  in  New  York,  San  Francisco,  or  Saint  Louis.  We  thought  it 
could  not  be  done ;  thought  it  an  indication  of  fraud,  and  rejected  it.  The 
contract  was  given  to  B.  G.  Arnold  &  Co.  I  was  sked  to  make  selections 
on  acceptation  of  bid  by  the  Government.  I  was  told  that  they  had  the 
contract,  and  was  notified  to  select  such  coffee  as  would  conform  with 
the  sample.  I  selected  such  coffee  as  conformed  with  the  sample,  so  far 
as  they  had  it.  Then  the  balance  of  the  contract  was  made  up  b,y  mix 
ing  the  different  grades.  After  selecting  such  samples,  they  mixed  it. 
I  then  sampled  each  lot  that  conformed  to  the  sample,  and  then  sam 
pled  the  mixture.  The  coffee  selected  from  B.  G.  Arnold  &  Co.  was  from 
one-eighth  to  one-fourth  of  a  cent  better  than  the  sample.  The  whole 
lot  averaged  that  much  better.  Coffee,  after  being  selected,  was  weighed 
and  put  aside  till  wanted.  I  knew  it  was  the  same  coffee  I  had  selected, 
and  saw  that  it  was  weighed  and  shipped  as  per  order  of  Indian  De 
partment.  I  checked  bills  and  weigh-master's  statements.  Next  to  the 
poorest  grades  imported  are  graded  from  good-ordinary  to  fair.  Large 
portion  of  coffee  imported  is  medium  grade.  It  is  possible  to  pick  out 
imperfect  grains  of  this  lot  of  coffee,  and  out  of  all  coffee  of  this  grade. 
Of  this  sample,  it  is  fair  to  suppose  one-fourth  of  it  would  be  imperfect 
grains.  That  does  not  render  the  coffee  unmerchantable;  its  drinking 


119 


qualities  are  not  seriously  impaired.  I  received  a  letter  from  Mr.  Smith 
asking  for  value  of  coffee  at  the  time  the  award  was  made.  The  coffee 
sent  by  Mr.  Smith  would  favorably  compare  with  the  sample  The 
price  of  this  coffee  was  $22.10  per  100  pounds,  a  low  price  for  this  cof 
fee.  Most  of  the  coffee  sold  in  this  neighborhood  is  roasted  and  ground 
and  sold  to  the  dealers  in  that  form.  Most  of  the  coffee  used  by  roast 
ers  is  of  this  grade  and  below. 


OMAHA,  NEBRASKA,  Tuesday,  July  27,  1875. 

Present,  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BARCLAY  WHITE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  White,  what  is  your  business? 

Answer.  Superintendent  of  Indian  affairs  in  the  Northern  Superin- 
tendency. 

Q.  State,  Mr.  White,  if  at  any  time  you  have  inspected  any  flour 
intended  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  or  for  any  of  the  Indians  in  the 
West. 

A.  I  have  inspected  flour  for  Red  Cloud  agency  ;  and  also  for  the 
Shosbone  and  Bannack  agency,  under  charge  of  Mr.  James  Irwin. 

Q.  The  Red  Cloud  agency  is  under  charge  of  Mr.  Saville  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville.  My  first  connection  with  the  inspec 
tion  of  flour  was  under  instructions  contained  in  a  letter  from  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  August  1,  1874,  of  which  this  is  the 
original : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  I,  1874. 

SIR  :  There  are  certan  Indian  supplies  to  be  delivered  at  Omaha  during  the  year  for 
Red  Cioud  agency.  The  contractors  will  be  notified  to  call  upon  you  for  the  proper 
inspection  and  certificate. 

If  you  are  not  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  nature  of  supplies  to  perform  the 
inspection,  you  will  please  find  some  competent  person  in  Omaha  whose  services  may 
be  secured  when  required.  For  such  services  he  will  be  entitled  to  receive  $5  per  day. 
All  goods  should  be  plainly  marked  "  Indian  Department,"  and  each  package,  sack,  or 
barrel  must  bear  your  marks  of  inspection.  You  will  provide  yourself  with  the  neces 
sary  implements  for  such  branding  or  stenciling. 

Certificates  as  per  accompanying  blanks,  filled  by  the  inspector,  should  be  delivered 
to  the  parties  entitled  to  receive  the  same,  and  a  duplicate  forwarded  to  this  Office. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant,  » 

E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
BARCLAY  WHITE,  Esq., 

Superintendent  of  Indian  Affairs,  Omaha,  Nebr. 

That  was  a  general  appointment.  It  did  not  specify  any  particular 
supplies.  I  received  afterward,  under  date  of  September  14,  1804,  in 
structions  specifying  a  particular  lot  of  flour  to  inspect  for  lied  Cloud 
agency.  This  is  the  letter  : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  14,  1874. 

SIR  :  Twenty-five  thousand  sacks  of  flour  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency  are  to  be  shipped 
from  Omaha  within  a  few  days  by  O.  P.  Hurford.  The  transportation  of  this  flour  is 
already  provided  for. 

The  service  required  of  you  is  to  attend  to  the  inspection,  to  be  satisfied  that  the 
flour  is  in  accordance  with  the  sample  which  Mr.  Hurford  has  in  his  possession  and  will 


120 

furnish  you  on  application,  and  that  it  is  branded  "Indian  Department"  by  the  con 
tractor,  and  has  the  required  mark  of  inspection  by  the  party  whom  you  employ  for 
this  service.  Hurford  is  informed  of  the  manner  of  inspection,  and  will  call  upon  you 
when  lie  is  ready  for  service. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
BARCLAY  WHITE, 

Superintendent  of  Indian  Affairs,  Omaha,  Nebr. 

I  will  here  explain  tbat  "  twenty-five  thousand"  sacks  of  Hour  is  a 
clerical  error ;  it  appeared  afterward  that  twenty-five  hundred  was  the 
number  meant.  I  called  upon  Mr.  Hurford,  and  lie  furnished  me  with  a 
sample  of  flour.  A  portion  of  that  sample  is  in  that  package,  marked 
No.  1.  [Handing  the  chairman  a  package.]  By  that  sample  my  deputy, 
who  has  been  in  the  service  of  the  Office  some  five  years,  and  has  been 
a  forwarder  of  Indian  goods,  which  is  a  portion  of  my  duty  also — my 
deputy  inspected  for  Eed  Cloud  agency  2,749  sacks  of  flour,  weighing 
25,944  pounds.  All  of  that  flour  was  inspected  by  that  sample,  with 
the  exception  of  somewhere  about  one  car-load  of  20,000  pounds,  or 
somewhere  about  two  hundred  sacks.  After  inspecting  for  some  time 
by  that  sample.  Mr.  Hurford,  the  contractor,  called  upon  me  again  with 
another  sample,  a  portion  of  which  is  in  that  package,  marked  No.  2. 
[Handing  the  chairman  another  package.]  He  stated  that  the  boys  in 
his  mill  had  given  the  sample  better  than  that  he  had  bid  upon,  and  he 
thought  this  (No.  2)  was  nearer  the  mark.  I  objected  to  the  sample  as 
being,  in  my  opinion,  below  XX  flour,  which  I  noticed  the  commission 
ers  had  advertised  to  receive  bids  upon.  I  demurred  to  receiving  it,  and 
told  my  deputy  to  be  very  careful  and  not  grade  down  to  that  sample. 
About  the  time  that  these  two  hundred  sacks  had  been  inspected  below 
sample  No.  1  and  by  No.  2,  B.  Eush  Eoberts,  a  member  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners,  came  to  my  office.  Roberts  is  a  miller  by  pro 
fession,  and  he  was  present  when  the  bids  were  received  at  New  York, 
as  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Indian  .Commissioners.  I  immediately 
told  him  my  fears  tbat  that  sample  was  below  the  grade  of  flour  in 
tended  to  be  furnished  by  the  commissioners.  I  threw  it  out.  I  noti 
fied  Mr.  Hurford  that  no  more  flour  would  be  received  below  sample  No. 
1.  [The  samples  were  also  marked  A  and  B.] 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  much  had  been  received  then  ? 
A.  I  had  received  then,  on  the  first  of  October,  when  Eoberts  arrived, 

(I  think  on  the  very  first  day  of  October,)  about  one 

Q.  I  mean  how  much  of  this  second  grade  of  flour  had  you  inspected? 
A.  About  one  car-load ;  a  little  over  two  hundred  sacks. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  had  been  inspected  and  received  upon  sample  No.  2  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  My  deputy  says  that  the  only  difference  between  that 
received  on  No.  2  and  that  received  on  No.  1  was  that  it  was  taken  up 
closer;  it  was  manufactured  from  equally  as  sound  wheat,  but  it  was 
taken  up  too  close;  it  was  too  dark.  That  one  car-load  is  all  that  has 
been  inspected  for  Eed  Cloud  agency  below  the  grade  of  sample  No.  1, 
which  I  have  deposited. 

Q.  The  flour  that  you  inspected  in  September,  1874,  for  Eed  Cloud 
agency  by  these  samples  Avas  shipped  to  where? 

A.  That  flour  was  delivered  to  the  officers  of  the  Union  Pacific  Eail- 
road  for  delivery  to  McCann,  the  contractor,  for  transportation. 

Q.  Where? 


121 

A.  He  had  the  contract  for  the  delivery  of  all  goods,  all  Indian  goods 
or  supplies,  to  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  From  where? 

A.  First  from  the  eastern  cities— New  York,  Philadelphia,  and  I 
think,  Baltimore— but  I  am  not  certain  of  that.  He  was  the  contractor 
for  the  transportation  of  all  Indian  goods  from  the  eastern  cities  to 
Omaha,  and  most  of  the  Indian  goods,  with  the  exception  of  those  des 
tined  to  Eed  Cloud  agency,  were  then  consigned  to  me.  I  have  been  in 
the  practice,  ever  since  I  have  been  in  tbis  office,  in  forwarding  goods  on 
the  Union  Pacific  and  all  western  roads 

Q.  Where  was  it  to  be  delivered? 

A.  Probably  at  Cheyenne.  That  is  the  point  of  reception  of  all  goods 
for  Red  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  To  be  delivered  to  McCaun  ? 

A.  It  was  delivered  here  to  the  freight-officer  by  me  for  delivery  to 
McCaim  as  contractor. 

Q.  You  understand  that  McCann's  contract  was  to  deliver  goods  from 
Cheyenne? 

A.  No;  his  contract  at  first  was  for  shipping  goods  from  eastern 
cities— annuity-goods  from  eastern  cities  to  Omaha;  that  is,  all  Indian, 
goods  and  annuity-goods  for  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  to  Cheyenne. 
Whether  it  went  farther  than  Cheyenne  I  do  not  know".  When  I  com 
menced  inspecting  this  flour  I  made  requisition  on  the  Union  Pacific 
Eailroad  Company  for  transportation  for  several  car-loads  of  it  to  Chey 
enne.  The  Government  inspector  at  Cheyenne — no,  it  was  Mr.  McCann 
himself  at  Cheyenne— notified  me  that  he  had  a  contract  for  carrying- 
goods  and  supplies  to  Cheyenne.  I  wrote  to  him  that  I  was  instructed 
to  inspect  and  forward  upon  Government  requisition  this  flour,  and 
should  do  it  until  otherwise  ordered  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs.  I  was  afterward  notified  by  letter  that  an  arrangement  had 
been  made  to  deliver  this  flour  to  Contractor  McCann — to  deliver  these 
supplies  for  Eed  Cloud  agency  to  McCann — and  it  was  done  so  after 
ward,  or  at  least  I  delivered  them  to  the  freight-agent  of  the  Union  Pa 
cific  road,  to  be  delivered  to  McCann.  That  was  my  understanding  of  it. 

Q.  You  have  had  these  samples  in  your  possession  ever  since  the 
inspection  ? 

A.  Ever  since.  I  took  them  to-day  from  the  bottles  in  which  they 
were  first  placed  when  brought  to  me  by  Contractor  Hurford.  They 
have  been  in  my  possession  ever  since. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  all  the  other  flour  up  to  sample  No.  1  ? 

A.  All  of  it.  In  this  connection  I  will  further  state  that  every  sack 
of  flour  which  I  inspected  was  inspected ;  every  sack  was  probed  and 
tried  ;  every  sack  was  stenciled  "  Indian  Department.  Barclay  White, 
U.  S.  Inspector."  My  full  name  was  placed  upon  every  sack  inspected 
by  me. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  WTere  you  satisfied  about  the  weight  of  each  sack  ? 

A.  The  weights  were  made  in  presence  of  my  deputy,  who  was  satisfied 
about  the  weights.  The  weights  of  these  sacks  varied.  Some  of  them 
were  88-pound  sacks ;  that  is,  some  of  them  contained  each  88  pounds 
of  flour.  Most  of  them  were  of  that  character.  A  sack  of  flour  is  gen 
erally  100  pounds  gross.  These  were  about  90  pounds  gross,  the  ma 
jority  of  them.  My  inspection-certificate  always  contained  the  number 
of  sacks  and  the  weight. 


122 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  inspection-certificate  was  given  for  the  aggregate  weight  of 
the  flour  inspected  at  the  time  f 

A.  The  weight  always,  and  also  the  number  of  sacks.  It  was  all 
weighed  at  the  depot,  and  inspected  and  branded. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  explanation  of  the  discrepancy  between  the  num 
ber  of  sacks  and  their  aggregate  weight  after  inspection  ? 

A.  The  discrepancy  in  the  number  of  sacks  was  explained  in  this 
way:  Mr.  Hurford  supplied  car-load  after  car-load  of  sacks  weighing 
90  pounds;  when  he  came  to  the  end  of  his  number  of  sacks  he  stated 
that,  although  he  had  supplied  the  number  of  sacks,  he  was  short  of 
weight.  I  told  him  that  I  was  authorized  to  inspect  "  twenty-five 
thousand  sacks,"  that  that  was  evidently  a  clerical  error,  and  although 
I  supposed  it  meant  twenty-five  hundred  sacks,  and  as  a  hundred  pounds 
was  the  weight  of  a  sack,  if  he  thought  it  was  necessary  to  complete 
the  amount  of  weight  I  was  perfectly  safe-— if  he  thought  he  was  safe 
for  his  money — as  regards  my  instructions,  and  I  had  no  hesitancy  to 
inspect  250,000  pounds,  which  would  be  the  weight  of  two  hundred 
and  fifty  sacks,  and  which  I  supposed  was  evidently  what  the  Com 
missioner  intended.  He  even  exceeded  that  amount.  I  said  I  supposed 
that  was  the  amount  intended  in  that  contract  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency, 
and  as  to  his  money  that  was  a  matter  for  him  to  look  out  for.  But, 
as  I  have  said,  he  even  exceeded  that  amount. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  What  was  the  correct  amount  ? 

A.  Two  thousand  seven  hundred  and  forty-nine  sacks  were  shipped. 
Q.  Weighing  how  much  in  the  aggregate  ? 

A.  Two  hundred  and  fifty  thousand  nine  hundred  and  forty-four 
pounds.  Here  is  the  detailed  statement: 

Flour  inspected  for  Eed  Cloud  agency— (0.  P.  Hur  ford's  contract.) 

1874.  Pounds. 

September  24.— 237  sacks 20,  85(5 

25. — 472  sacks 41,  536 

30.— 250  sacks 22,  000 

30.— 250  sacks 22,  000 

October  15. — 250  sacks 22,  000 

15.— 250  sacks 22.000 

16.— 220  sacks 22,  000 

19.— 250  sacks 22,000 

23.— 340  sacks 33,  652 

November  27.— 230  sacks 22,  900 


2,749  sacks 250,944 

After  Mr.  B.  Eush  Eoberts,  member  of  the  Indian  commission,  re 
turned  to  his  home,  he  sent  me  a  long  letter,  which  I  have  here,  dated 
Sandy  Spring,  Md.,  Eleventh  month  4th,  1874,  in  relation  to  a  great 
many  different  subjects,  and  in  which  he  writes  this:  "In  relation  to 
inspection  of  flour  at  Omaha,  the  Commissioner  appears  to  see  some  in 
tention  to  cheat  in  the  matter,  and  asked  if  any  had  been  passed  lower 
in  grade  than  the  first  sample  produced.  My  reply  was,  that  I  believed 
not.  I  have  not  yet  seen  the  contract,  but  the  Commissioner  says  it  is 
for  the  best  flour,  and  nothing  below  that  should  be  received,  "if  the 
flour  to  go  to  the  Shoshones  has  not  all  been  sent  forward,  I  would  not 
mark  any  that  was  below  the  sample  in  my  office.  That  is  the  best 
sample." 


123 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  else  does  that  letter  contain  ? 

A.  It  contains  a  great  variety  of  matter  entirely  foreign  to  this  subject. 
That  passage  which  I  have  read  is  all  that  relates  to  this  flour. 

Q.  Does  it  relate  to  any  possible  frauds  upon  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Nothing  of  that  kind  at  all.  It  is  a  general  Indian  letter ;  you  are 
at  liberty  to  read  it  if  you  think  you  might  find  anything  applicable  to 
your  purpose  in  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  It  is  well  enough  for  us  to  see  it. 

WITNESS.  Here  it  is.  [Handing  the  letter  to  Mr.  Harris.  ]  After  that 
I  inspected  1,129  sacks,  weighing  111,092  pounds,  for  James  Irwin  at 
the  Shoshone  and  Bannack  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Who  was  that  flour  delivered  by  ? 

A.  It  was  delivered  by  O.  P.  Hurford,  and  was  inspected  entirely 
upon  the  sample  No.  1  that  I  have  placed  in  your  hands. 

Q.  And  did  all  of  it  come  up  to  that  sample  in  grade  ? 

A.  All  of  it. 

Q.  Where  was  that  shipped  to  I 

A.  Shipped  to  Bryan,  a  station  on  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad. 

Q.  To  the  care  of  whom,  and  to  be  delivered  to  whom  ? 

A.  That  was  shipped  upon  Government  requisition  made  by  myself. 

Q.  To  be  delivered  to  whom  ? 

A.  Delivered  to  the  order  of  James  Irwin.  He  receipts  upon  the  bills 
of  lading  for  his  goods. 

Q.  That  was  not  to  be  transported  by  wagon  ? 

A.  No.  I  will  remark  in  connection  with  this,  if  it  is  not  out  of  place, 
that  Mr.  Irwin  has  just  now,  within  a  few  days,  entered  into  a  contract 
with  the  same  party,  O.  P.  Hurford,  for  his  supply  of  flour  for  the  pres 
ent  year ;  and  he  has  not  made  one  word  of  complaint,  as  far  as  I  have 
heard,  in  regard  to  the  quality  of  the  flour  sent  him  last  year. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  here  who  your  agent  is  who  weighed  and  inspected 
the  flour  ? 

A.  The  subinspector  f 

Q.  Yes? 

A.  William  J.  Yates,  an  elderly  gentleman,  a  member  of  the  Episco 
pal  church  in  this  place,  and  who  has  been  a  miller  and  a  store-keeper. 
He  personally  inspected  all  of  it.  He  has  been  connected  for  five  years 
in  my  office  as  freight-shipper ;  he  is  employed,  as  I  need  his  services, 
by  the  day. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Is  he  in  the  city  ? 
A.  Yes,  I  think  it  is  likely ;  he  is  in  this  house,  probably. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  So  that  in  point  of  fact  this  is  his  inspection  rather  than  yours  ? 
A.  It  is  not  his  inspection.     I  am  responsible  for  tbe  inspection,  and 
he  inspects  it  under  my  personal  inspection. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  time  he  inspected  it  ? 

A.  I  have  been  present  at  various  times  and  satisfied  myself  that  his 
inspection  was  proper.  It  is  too  much  responsibility  to  leave  it  entirely 
to  another  person. 


124 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  any  other  supplies  besides  the  flour  ? 

A.  I  have  inspected  corn  for  that  agency  during  the  same  year. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  There  has  been  no  complaint,  I  believe,  about  corn. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  do  not  know  exactly  what  the  complaint  was,  but 
there  was  a  bitter  complaint  last  year,  that  the  Commissioner  or  some 
body  had  exchanged  flour  for  corn  in  fulfillment  of  a  contract.  That  is 
to  say,  the  contract  called  for  flour,  and  at  the  request  or  suggestion  of 
somebody,  a  certain  quantity  of  corn  was  substituted  for  a  certain  quan 
tity  of  flour.  It  was  alleged  that  in  that  transaction  there  was  some 
fraud  upon  the  Indians 

WITNESS.  I  inspected  3,672  sacks  of  corn  weighing  490,240  pounds. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  that  inspected  ? 

A.  The  first  inspection  was  August  21,  1874 ;  the  last,  January  16, 
1875. 

Q.  Was  all  that  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  That  was  all  shipped  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  ;  or  rather,  it  was  all 
delivered  to  the  freight-officer  in  the  same  manner  as  the  flour. 

Q.  For  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  For  Mr.  McCann  to  ship  to  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  have  a  copy  of 
the  contract  here  if  you  desire  to  see  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  that  contract  made  upon  proposals  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     [Copy  of  the  contract  shown.] 

Q.  And  the  corn  was  delivered  by  J.  T.  Granger? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  or  for  him.  That  corn  was  all  inspected  according  to  the 
printed  proposals  for  supplies,  and  my  certificate  of  inspection  was 
worded  in  that  way. 

Q.  The  corn  was  of  the  quality  required  by  the  contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  in  transporting  this  corn  McCann  trans 
ported  it  by  the  number  of  sacks  or  by  the  weight? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that.  I  know  only  this,  I  audited 
the  freight-accounts  of  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  for  the  transportation 
of  the  Indian  supplies  ;  I  audited  them  in  my  office.  Their  bills  inva 
riably  came  in  for  weight  so  far  as  I  have  audited  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  you  audited  the  bills  for  transporting  this 
flour  ? 

A.  I  have  not  seen  them  ;  I  have  not  audited  any  of  McCann's  bills; 
they  do  not  come  to  my  office. 

Q.  What  accounts  of  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  did  you  audit? 

A.  1  audited  all  the  accounts  for  transportation  of  Indian  goods  and 
supplies  transported  upon  Government  requisition. 

Q.  Didn't  you  make  the  Government  requisition  for  the  transporta 
tion  of  this  flour  from  Omaha  to  Cheyenne? 

A.  I  did  for  a  few  car-loads,  at  first..  I  afterward  called  upon  the 
freight-officer  for  a  return  of  my  requisitions  after  I  was  notified  that 
McCann  was  to  ship  that  flour.  They  were  not  returned.  He  said  they 
were  of  no  use;  whether  in  my  possession  or  his;  that  they  would  have 
to  go  through  my  office,  if  they  were  paid,  for  audit,  and  I  could  stop 
them  there.  They  have  never  appeared. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q.  Did  you  inspect  any  other  articles  ? 

A.  I  inspected  no  other  articles  for  Red  Cloud  agency  but  the  flour 
and  the  corn. 


125 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  the  corn  good,  safe,  merchantable  corn  ? 

A.  It  was  good,  safe,  merchantable  corn  ;  it  was  rather  a  superior 
article. 

Mr.  HARRIS,  (after  having  read  the  long  letter  handed  him  by  the 
witness.)  I  don't  see,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  there  is  anything  whatever  of 
interest  to  us  in  this  letter  except  the  passage  that  has  been  read. 

Q.  If  there  is  anything  else  that  occurs  to  you  in  relation  to  these  mat 
ters  we  would  like  to  have  you  state  it. 

A.  I  will  state  that,  although  it  does  not  come  to  me  officially,  I  have 
been  informed  that  this  flour  has  been  inspected  again  at  Cheyenne. 
One  of  my  letters  stated  that  Colonel  Long — whether  he  is  an  Army  in 
spector,  or  who  appoints  him  I  do  not  know — but  I  have  been  inci 
dentally  informed  by  correspondence  from  there  that  this  flour  had 
been  inspected  again  at  Cheyenne  by  Colonel  Long. 

Q.  Does  your  information  say  whether  it  was  all  received  'I 

A.  I  have  no  information  except  .that  of  Mr.  Hurford,  who  is  here 
present,  and  who  probably  has  better  means  of  knowing  that  than  I. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Is  this  (Omaha)  the  place  where  the  flour  for  the  Red  Cloud 
agency  is  generally  inspected,  or  Cheyenne  I 

A.  I  can  hardly  answer  that  question.  There  has  been  considerable 
inspection  of  supplies  at  Council  Bluffs  heretofore,  but  to  what  extent  I 
am  not  able  to  say.  I  know  that  Mr.  Clarkson,  in  1873,  inspected  sup 
plies  at  Council  Bluffs.  He  is  brother  to  the  bishop  in  this  place. 

B}<  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  say  of  the  quality  of  that  Xo.  1  flour  as  compared 
with  what  is  called  good  merchantable  flour — XX  flour? 

A.  I  should  say,  as  far  as  my  knowledge  of  flour  goes,  that  it  was  a 
fair  sample.  I  cannot  positively  say  whether  it  is  up  to  XX.  I  am  not 
familiar  with  all  these  trade  qualities,  and  I  am  not  able  to  say  that  it 
is  fully  up  to  XX. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  the  sample,  and  we  will  have  some  experts 
to  speak  about  that.  If  there  is  anything  more,  Mr.  White,  that  you 
could  give  us  information  about,  or  anything  that  would  put  us  in  the 
way  of  getting  at  the  truth  of  these  matters,  we  would  like  to  have  you 
state  it. 

WITNESS.  Bed  Cloud  agency  is  out  of  my  line  of  business ;  I  have 
very  little  intercourse  with  any  of  the  business  of  the  agency.  I  have 
heretofore— previous  to  last  year— always  shipped  upon  Government 
requisition  the  supplies,  or  at  least  the  annuity  goods,  to  Cheyenne,  and 
there  has  been  a  great  deal  of  complaint  on  account  of  McCann's  trans 
portation  contract.  I  have  had  trouble  myself  with  his  want  of  prompt 
ness  in  filling  his  contract. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  For  the  transportation  of  what  was  it  that  you  were  caused  incon 
venience? 

A.  His  detention  of  payment  of  freights  here  for  goods  that  came 
into  my  hands  at  this  point.  He  contracts  to  pay  freights  upon  them 
east  of  this  point,  and  there  are  goods  now  lying  at  Council  Bluffs,  and 
the  freight-officers  are  writing  to  me  continually  to  know  about  them. 
McCann  contracts  to  pay  the  freight  upon  them  to  this  point ;  some  of 
them  probably  I  will  have  to  ship  upon  Government  requisition,  others 
he  has  the  contract  for  shipping  to  points  westward;  but  there  are  goods 


126 

now,  and  have  been  for  weeks,  lying  at  Council  Bluffs  that  should  be 
delivered  at  this  point. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  kind  of  goods  do  you  mean,  supplies  or  annuity  goods  f 

A.  I  presume  they  are  annuity  goods. 

Q.  There  has  been  some  complaint  that  the  blankets  given  to  the 
Indians  last  year  were  not  delivered  until  very  cold  weather — late  in 
November,  when  they  were  suffering  severely  with  the  cold ;  do  you 
know  the  reason  why  they  were  not  delivered  sooner  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know ;  there  are  no  goods  delivered  at  this  point  to  be 
shipped  upon  Government  requisition  but  I  ship  within  twenty-four 
hours  after  I  know  that  they  are  here.  That  is  the  invariable  custom  at 
my  office. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  blankets  or  annuity  goods  lying  here  or  at 
Council  Bluffs  for  two  or  three  months  ? 

A.  No,  I  do  not ;  none  ever  lay  here  for  four  years  past. 

Q.  That  is  here  at  Omaha,  you  mean? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  at  Council  Bluffs  ? 

A.  I  have  no  recollection  of  any  lying  at  Council  Bluffs.  The  freight- 
officers  at  Council  Bluffs  have  been  in  the  practice  of  notifying  me 
whenever  there  is  a  delay  there,  and  if  there  is  a  difficulty  that  I  can 
not  provide  for  I  always  correspond  with  the  Department  immediately 
with  regard  to  goods  that  are  lying  there. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  When  goods  consigned  to  Council  Bluffs  have  lain  there  a  week 
or  ten  days,  have  you  been  notified  of  that  fact  ? 

A.  I  have  heretofore.     Those  officers  generally  notify  me. 

Q.  Would  they  have  done  so,  Mr.  White,  after  it  became  perfectly 
well  known  that  Mr.  McCaun  had  the  contract  for  transportation,  with 
which  you  had  nothing  to  do  ? 

A.  There  was  very  little  of  that  done  last  year.  I  was  notified  of  a 
very  few  goods.  I  was  notified  of  a  quantity  of  soap — I  think  it  was  in 
1874 — consigned  to  various  agencies  up  the  river,  and  I  received  instruc 
tions  from  the  Department  to  pay  the  freight  upon  it.  It  came  from 
Saint  Louis ;  it  did  not  come  from  the  eastern  cities.  I  paid  the  freight 
and  shipped  it  to  the  different  agencies. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  McCaun  about  the  wrant  of  promptness  in  trans 
portation  ? 

A.  I  never  had  but  one  interview  with  McCaun.  He  called  at  my 
office  upon  one  occasion. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  distance  between  Cheyenne  and 
Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know ;  I  have  never  been  to  the  present  agency. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  you  informed  with  any  regularity  of  McCann's  course  in  re 
gard  to  transportation? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  McCann's  operations,  except  that 
he  is  negligent  in  attending  to  his  business,  as  far  as  my  intercourse 
with  him  on  that  occasion  about  those  goods  sent  to  this  point  is  con 
cerned. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  The  Commissioners  want  all  the  information  they  can 
get  upon  the  subject. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  understand   Mr.  White  to  state  that  there  were 


127 

some  occasions  when  some  goods  shipped  to  McCann  had  lain  at  Coun 
cil  Bluffs,  and  that  that  was  the  neglect  of  McCann. 

WITNESS.  Yes,  sir ;  and  there  are^  some  lying  there  now,  and  have 
been  for  some  weeks. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  they  are  ? 

A.  I  have  the  expense-bills  at  my  office;  I  can  furnish  you  with  the 
items  of  them. 

Q.  Are  they  under  lock  and  key  or  in  open  depot  ? 

A.  I  cannot  state  that.     They  came  over  the  C.  B.  and  Q.  (Chicago 
Burlington  and  Quincy)  road.     The  freight-officers  of  that  road  have 
sent  me  the  expense-bills. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Of  course  the  railroad  company  is  responsible  for 
them. 

WITNESS.  I  have  written  to  them  that  McCann  was  the  contractor, 
and  he  belonged  in  Nebraska  City ;  and  that  was  as  far  as  I  could  go. 


TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  J.  YATES. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  1  will  ask  you  to  state,  Mr.  Yates,  if  you  inspected  some 
flour  that  was  delivered  to  the  superintendent  of  Indian  affairs  for  the 
Northern  Superintendeney  here,  by  Mr.  Hurford,  in  1874  ? 

Answer.  I  think  in  December  we  finished.  We  commenced  earlier— I 
forget  the  dates,  but  I  think  Mr.  White  has  the  dates ;  I  made  a  report 
to  him  every  evening. 

Q.  You  inspected  all  that  flour  ? 

A.  Every  sack,  sir,  right  along. 

Q.  How  did  you  inspect  it? 

A.  We  only  had  a  u  butter- trier."  We  would  shove  it  through  the 
sacks,  and  that  usually  brought  out  a  sample  clear  through  the  whole 
sack,  and  1  generally  drew  about  three  samples  to  a  sack. 

Q.  Have  you  had  experience  in  the  handling  and  manufacturing  of 
flour  ? 

A.  I  have  been  dealing  in  flour  ever  since  I  was  a  boy,  and  I  have 
been  with  Mr.  Davis  in  the  State  mill  here.  I  have  done  all  his  business; 
bought  his  wheat  and  superintended  the  mill. 

Q.  You  have  dealt  in  flour  before  that  for  a  long  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  could  go  down  to  any  of  those  mills  and  draw  the  sam 
ples  that  would  match  the  samples  that  I  inspected  by.  I  have  a  dis 
tinct  recollection  of  the  color  of  the  flour. 

Q.  Mr.  White  has  furnished  us  with  samples.  [Sample  No.  1  shown.] 
What  kind  of  flour  is  that  9 

A.  That  sample  is  good  flour ;  that  is  No.  1. 

Q.  The  flour  you  inspected  on  this  occasion  was  equal  to  that  ? 

A.  Equal ;  or  at  least  one-half  was  better,  and  none  of  it  was  inferior 
to  that  sample.  [Sample  No.  2  shown.]  Now  the  difference  between 
these  two  flours  is  this,  that  (No.  1)  is  a  little  darker ;  it  is  a  little  more 
specky — what  the  millers  would  call  shorts ;  it  is  made  out  of  sound 
wheat,  but  has  a  few  shorts  in  it. 

Q.  Do  you  remember,  Mr.  Yates,  how  much  of  that  flour  corresponded 
to  that  sample  No.  2  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  a  great  deal  of  it  was  much  superior.  I 
suppose  there  was  a  car-load  of  that  grade;  there  might  have  been  less; 
but  I  think  there  were  about  200  sacks. 


128 

[The  samples  were  examined  with  a  magnify  ing- glass  by  the  commis 
sioners  and  the  witness.] 

WITNESS.  These  are  the  sain  pies  furnished  by  Mr.Hurford's  agent, 
and  by  which  we  inspected  the  Hour.  Mr.  Horford  was  sick  at  the  time, 
and  a  young  man,  his  clerk  or  book-keeper,  gave  me  the  first  sample. 

Q.  Mr.  Yates,  from  your  knowledge  of  flour,  milling,  &c.,  would  you 
say  of  this  sample  No.  2  that  it  would  make  bread  suitable  for  the  use 
of  persons  ordinarily  ? 

A.  What  I  drew  out  of  the  bags  I  threw  on  the  floor,  and  in  the  ware 
house  they  complained  ;  so  when  I  went  again  I  took  a  little  sack  with 
me,  aud  brought  away  some  flour  and  made  bread  out  of  it,  and  sweeter 
bread  I  never  tasted.  I  like  bread  made  out  of.  spring- wheat,  and  I 
never  tasted  sweeter  bread  than  that  which  I  made  from  sample  No.  2. 

Q.  So  you  think  both  samples.  Nos.  1  and  2,  would  make  good  bread? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  How  as  to  color  ? 

A.  It  (No.  2)  was  a  little  yellow  ;  bright  goldish.  There  is  a  little 
yellow  in  both,  but  one  is  a  little  lighter. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  this  flour  made  of  spring-wheat  ? 

A.  I  presume  it  was.  Altogether  we  raise  but  very  little  winter- 
wheat  in  Nebraska. 

Q.  It  was  bought  here,  was  it  ? 

A.  I  think  so,  sir.  I  think  Mr.  Hurford  buys  all  his  wheat  here.  I 
might  remark  about  withdrawing  those  samples,  that  Mr.  Hurford  said 
there  was  some  mistake,  and  asked  to  withdraw  his  sample.  I  told  him 
to  see  Mr.  White,  as  I  had  no  authority  ;  so  Mr.  White  delivered  to  me 
the  second  sample,  aud  I  inspected  by  it.  The  200  sacks  I  alluded  to 
was  all  that  fell  below  the  grade  of  the  first  sample,  but  these  200  sacks 
were  compared  with  sample  No.  2,  and  only  about  200  of  the  2,700  fell 
short  of  sample  No.  1. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Those  200  sacks  that  fell   short  of  sample  No.  1  were  equal   in 
quality  to  sample  No.  2  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  OLIVER  B.  HUKFOIID. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Do  you  reside  in  Omaha? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

The  chairman  informally  explained  to  Mr.  Hurford  the  object  for  which 
the  commission  was  appointed,  aud  requested  him  to  give  whatever 
information  he  could  furnish  on  the  subject. 

WITNESS.  I  was  not  the  contractor  with  the  Government  for  fur 
nishing  flour.  Now,  I  understand  that  this  commission  proposes  to  in 
vestigate  Commissioner  Smith  as  well,  and  you  want  to  get  at  the  whole 
facts. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Yes. 

WITNESS.  Well,  in  June,  1874, 1  submitted  a  bid  for  flour,  together 
with  a  sample.  My  bid  was  $2.35  per  hundred  pounds,  and  Mr.  John 


129 

H.  Martin,  of  Cheyenne  and  Denver,  also  submitted  a  bid  at  $2.12  per 
hundred.  He  was  a  failing  contractor  the  year  before,  and  he  did  not 
expect  his  bid,  as  I  was  informed,  to  be  accepted  by  Commissioner 
Smith.  Mr.  McCaun,  in  a  conversation  with  Commissioner  Smith,  or 
the  Commissioner  in  a  conversation  with  Mr.  McCann,  expressed  some 
doubt  about  Martin  failing  in  this  contract,  and  they  might  be  left  short 
of  supplies  ? 

Q.  Who  expressed  that  doubt,  McCann  or  Commissioner  Smith? 

A.  Commissioner  Smith  to  McCann.  McCann7s  reply  was,  that  if 
Martin  failed  Hurford  would  supply  the  flour,  he  knew  ;  arid  they  sus 
pected  that,  if  they  did  not  give  Martin  the  contract  at  his  bid,  from 
the  character  of  the  Mian,  he  would  make  it  so  unpleasant  for  them  that 
they  took  it  up,  supposing  that  he  would  not  perfect  his  contract  by 
giving  good  bonds  ;  but  he  did.  Well,  the  first  connection  I  have  had 
with  the  matter  is  this  letter,  a  suggestion  from  Mr.  McCann  that  Martin 
would  be  slow  about  filling  his  contract,  and  wanting  ine  to  step  in  and 
supply  the  flour : 

OFFICE  UNION  PACIFIC  EAILROAD  HOUSE, 

Cheyenne,  W.  T.,  July  28,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  think  Martin,  the  contractor  for  flour,  will  be  slow  in  filling  at  $2.50, 
delivered  here.  Can  you  furnish  five  car-loads,  of  220  sacks  each,  soon,  and  put  it  in 
the  contract  at  $2.12?  If  so,  I  will  take  it  as  soon  as  loaded.  I  propose  to  send  it  on 
at  contract  price,  to  keep  the  agency  supplied,  without  reference  to  contractor's  move 
ments. 

Please  write  immediately. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANN. 
O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq., 

Omaha, 

I  count  on  flour $2  12 

Freight 38 

2  50 

WITNESS.  Now,  gentlemen,  1  believe  that  was  a  trick  on  me.  The 
proper  way  for  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  when  Martin  failed, 
was  then  to  take  ray  bid,  as  I  understood  I  was  the  next  lowest  bidder. 
That  would  have  been  the  proper  course  to  have  pursued ;  but  instead 
of  that,  Mr.  MeCanii  was  eternally  turning  up  and  wanting  flour  to  keep 
the  agency  running,  and  I  furnished  that  flour,  and  it  was  inspected  at 
Cheyenne — the  first  lot,  it  was  not  inspected  here  (Omaha)— pursuant 
to  the  above  request  of  McCann,  dated  July  28, 1874.  Now,  in  passing, 
I  would  suggest  to  this  commission  that  they  ascertain  whether  that 
flour  was  paid  for  in  Cheyenne  at  $2.1:3  or  $2.35.  I  think  it  was  paid 
for  at  $2.35  per  hundred  pounds.  I  furnished  the  1,100  sacks  men 
tioned  in  that  paper,  at  $2.12  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  I  understand  you  shipped  this  flour? 

A.  Those  1,100  sacks  at  $2.12  ?  I  shipped  them  to  J.  J.  Saville,  care 
of  McCann ;  it  was  inspected  out  yonder,  at  Cheyenne.  Then  after 
that  was  shipped  I  got  a  letter  from  Mr.  McCanu,  suggesting  that  he 
would  want  5,000  sacks  more,  and  there  was  a  good  deal  of  correspond 
ence  on  the  subject  before  we  arrived  at  anything  definite.  After  con 
siderable  correspondence  I  received  this  letter  from  Mr.  McCann : 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  August  22,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Since  writing  you,  I  have  been  authorized  to  purchase  202,000  pounds  of 
flour,  for  the  Indian  service,  in  double  sacks,  weighing  88  pounds  to  the  sack,  includ 
ing  sacks,  or,  say  2,296  sacks  of  88  pounds  each.  If  you  see  your  way  clear  to  furnish 
it  at  the  price,  ($2  per  100  pounds,)  shipping  two  to  three  cars  per  week,  after  next 

9  I  F 


130 

•week,  please  sign  and  return  the  inclosed  memorandum.    Koenig  desires  the  order,  but 
in  view  of  onr  correspondence,  yon  are  entitled  to  the  refusal. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCAXN. 
O.   P.  HURFORD,   Esq., 

Omaha. 

Mr.  Koenig  was  not  famishing  any  flour:  he  could  not  furnish  any, 
his  mill  was  stopped  for  repairs  at  the  time ;  his  mill  was  at  Grand 
Island.  The  flour  could  not  have  been  furnished  there  in  any  event, 
because  it  had  to  be  inspected  here,  (Omaha.)  He  told  me  that  lie  never 
had  agreed  to  furnish  McCann  any  flour;  that  McCaim  had  written  to 
him  on  the  subject,  but  that  he  had  declined  to  furnish  him  any  flour,  as 
he  could  not  do  so.  I  wrote  McCann  a  letter  agreeing  to  furnish  this 
flour  just  as  he  asked  for  it,  in  88-pound  sacks,  making  some  remarks 
about  the  stringency  of  his  terms,  and  so  on,  and  a  few  days  after  this 
letter  was  written  Mr.  McCann  came  down  here  on  his  way  to  Wash 
ington.  I  asked  him  about  the  88  pound  sacks,  why  it  was  to  be  put  np 
in  that  way ;  that  it  was  unusual  and  might  probably  lead  to  trouble.  He 
said  it  was  for  the  convenience  of  issue  together  with  other  rations ;  he 
made  some  excuse  of  that  kind.  I  furnished  that  flour  in  the  88-pound 
sacks,  and  that  is  the  flour  in  reference  to  which  Mr.  White  has  testified. 
That  flour  was  furnished  through  August  and  September.  Then  there 
was  another  lot  that  went  to  the  Shoshone  and  Bannack  agency,  1,101 
sacks,  that  was  furnished  at  82  per  hundred,  in  100-pound  sacks  at  the 
request  of  Mr.  McCaun.  It  was  furnished  in  October  and  November. 
That  for  the  Shoshones  and  Bannacks  was  furnished  mostly  in  October. 
I  might  say,  in  round  numbers,  it  was  early  in  October ;  the  last  car 
load  went  early  in  November.  Now,  these  shipments  of  flour,  these 
88-pound  sacks,  were  shipped  250  sacks  in  a  car-load  ;  I  think  that  makes 
just  22,000  pounds.  I  have  the  shipping-receipts  somewhere  showing 
that  fact,  so  that  so  far  as  we  were  concerned  the  flour  was  all  thrown 
into  pounds.  I  received  pay  for  it  at  $2.12  per  hundred  pounds  for  the 
h'rst  lot,  and  82  per  hundred  for  the  other  lot. 

About  that  sample.  When  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
wrote  to  Barclay  White  that  I  would  furnish  this  flour,  and  that  he 
should  inspect  it,  he  stated  to  Mr.  White  that  Mr.  Hurford  would  fur 
nish  sample.  Well,  that  always  confused  me,  and  aroused  my  suspicions 
that  they  were  furnishing  the  flour  on  my  contract,  and  I  sought  to  get 
that  fact  from  Commissioner  Smith,  but  failed.  I  telegraphed  him  di 
rectly,  saying  if  this  flour  was  being  furnished  on  the  sample  that  I  sub 
mitted  in  June  then  the  price  I  mentioned  in  June  ought  to  prevail, 
namely,  $2.35.  I  do  not  think  there  is  a  doubt  of  it.  I  state  that  so 
that  you  may  look  in  that  direction  when  you  go  to  Washington.  I 
had  no  sample  to  submit.  In  one  of  those  letters  from  McCann  he  asks 
me  if  I  have  the  sample  I  submitted  at  Washington.  Of  course  I  could 
not  have  it  unless  my  bid  was  accepted,  then  it  would  be  returned  to 
me.  Then  Mr.  McCann  says,  "  If  you  have  not  got  it,  I  have."  What 
business  had  it  out  there  at.  Cheyenne?  That  was  what  confused  me. 
1  had  no  sample  to  furnish.  When  I  was  applied  to  for  this  flour,  and 
requested  to  furnish  my  own  samples,  I  furnished  one  and  afterward 
another ;  and  these  [No's.  1  and  2,  presented  by  Mr.  White]  are  the  sam 
ples.  I  was  sick  and  my  young  man  furnished  the  first  sample.  It  was 
too  good,  as  I  supposed.  But  one  car-load  was  furnished  and  inspected 
by  this  best  sample,  (No.  1,)  and  I  found  that  I  was  having  injustice 
done  me.  As  I  was  at  liberty  to  furnish  my  own  sample,  I  requested 
permission  to  withdraw  that  sample  and  submit  one  that  came  nearer 
the  ordinary  Indian  flour  that  has  been  furnished  here.  In  the  mean 


131 

time  Commissioner  Smith  came  out  here  and  saw  the  two  samples  in 
the  office  of  Barclay  White,  arid  objected  to  this  second  sample  ;  and 
Mr.  White  notified  me  of  the  fact,  and  I  told  him,  "  Very  well,  I  will 
furnish  according  to  the  first  sample  ;"  and  I  did.  So  there  was  one 
car-load  furnished  according  to  the  second  sample,  and  all  the  balance 
was  furnished  according  to  the  first  sample  submitted,  (No.  1.) 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  say  Commissioner  Smith  was  here  and  saw  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  White  said  somebody  else  was  here — Mr.  Roberts  ? 

A.  Commissioner  Smith  was  here  himself,  and  in  Mr.  Barclay  White's 
office,  and  objected  to  this  (No.  2)  sample. 

Q.  Was  it  Commissioner  Smith,  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commission 
ers,  or  Mr.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  Mr.  White  told  me  that  Mr.  Smith,  of  the  Indian  Board,  was  here 
and  objected  to  the  sample,  and  I  understood  it  was  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs. 

(After  some  desultory  conversation  between  the  commissioners  and 
the  witness,  it  was  ascertained  that  it  was  Mr.  Smith,  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners,  and  not  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
who  was  present  and  objected  to  the  samples.) 

WTITNESS.  This  flour  was  re-inspected  at  Cheyenne  by  a  Mr.  Coakley, 
quartermaster's  clerk  at  Fort  Russell,  near  Cheyenne,  and  he  threw  out 
one  hundred  and  three  sacks  of  the  whole  lot,  so  that  whatever  passed 
here  that  was  a  little  below  grade,  I  fancy,  was  thrown  out  yonder  at 
Cheyenne,  and  there  were  one  hundred  and  three  sacks  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  that  flour? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  iny  agent  sold  it  to  parties  going  into  the  Black  Hills. 

Q.  So,  then,  we  understand  that  you  never  had  a  contract  with  the 
United  States,  or  with  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  furnish 
ing  flour,  and  you  did  not  furnish  this  flour  upon  a  contract  with  the 
Government  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not. 

Q.  But  you  furnished  it  upon  an  arrangement  with  this  man  McCauu  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  paid  for  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  after  a  heap  of  delay  and  worry,  and  in  some  instances 
letting  my  drafts  go  to  protest. 

Q.  You  have  been  engaged  in  the  manufacture  of  flour  here  ? 

A,  Yes,  sir ;  for  ten  or  twelve  years. 

Q.  Running  a  mill  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Manufacturing  flour  pretty  largely  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  been,  up  to  recently,  connected  with  three  mills. 
I  sold  one  here  a  few  weeks  ago.  I  think  I  have  more  mill-power  than 
any  one  man  in  the  State  as  a  manufacturer  of  flour. 

Q.  What  at  that  time  was  the  value  of  flour  by  the  barrel  here,  such 
flour  as  you  shipped  East  for  the  market? 

A.  We  do  not  ship  any  East  from  here ;  it  is  all  sold  West,  Onr 
best  grade  was  at  that  time  selling  at  from  $2.155  to  $2.35  a  sack  of  98 
pounds,  or  half  a  barrel. 

Q.  That  is  all  spring- wheat  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  difference  in  price  between  spring-wheat  flour  and 
winter-wheat  flour  at  that  time1? 


132 

A.  Considerable.  Winter-wheat  flour  is  all  manufactured  in  Chicago 
and  down  South  where  winter-wheat  is  raised.  Winter-wheat  com 
mands  from  ten  to  fifteen  cents  per  bushel  more  than  spring-wheat. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Why  is  that  ? 

A.  It  is  supposed  to  be  of  finer  quality.  It  makes  a  finer  quality  of 
Hour,  and  suits  the  eastern  market,  and  makes  more  Hour  to  the  bushel 
and  less  offal. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  in  regard  to  the  transportation  of  other 
Indian  supplies  besides  flour  ;  how  is  it  done  ? 

A.  Mr.  McCann  has  a  contract  with  the  Union  Pacific  Eailroad  for 
carrying  these  Indian  supplies,  and  he  gives  me,  here  in  one  of  these 
letters,  38  cents  a  hundred  pounds  from  Omaha  to  Cheyenne.  That  is 
the  rate  the  railroad  charges  McCann.  This  Hour  that  was  shipped  by 
me  to  the  Shoshones  and  Bannacks  was  shipped  to  Bryan,  on  the  Union 
Pacific  Kailroad.  It  was  put  off  there,  and  there  it  laid  ;  and  Mr.  Mc 
Cann  did  not  pay  the  freight  on  it,  and  I  understand  that  there  were 
other  Indian  supplies  there  at  the  same  time  in  the  same  fix.  Mr.  Mc 
Cann  was  at  that  time  in  Washington  figuring  around.  He  went  there 
some  time  in  October,  and  remained  there  through  October,  November, 
December,  January,  and  I  think  it  was  late  in  February  when  he  came 
back,  and  this  stuff  laid  out  there,  and  the  Indian  agents  could  not  get 
it  without  the  United  States  freight  being  paid  on  it.  And  that  was  the 
trouble  with  Mr.  Irwin's  flour ;  it  laid  there  and  he  could  not  get  it,  and  his 
teams  staid  there  in  the  cold  and  apt  to  be  frozen  up,  and  Mr.  McCanii 
charged  the  trouble  on  me,  that  I  did  not  ship  the  flour  forward,  when 
the  iact  was  that  it  laid  there  for,  I  think,  a  month.  I  wrote  Mr.  Mc 
Cann  a  letter  on  the  subject.  He  charged  me  with  the  delay ;  and  I 
think  I  was  informed  that  he  made  the  same  charge  against  me  to  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  Mr.  McCann  was  very  angry  at  me 
holding  any  communication  with  the  Department,  and  finally  I  wrote 
Mr.  McCann  a  letter  that  was  veiy  severe,  calling  him  to  account  for 
his  course,  and  in  reply  to  that  letter  I  received  one  that  I  would  like  to 
show  to  the  commission,  to  show  how  he  comes  down. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  yon  know  when  flour  was  transported  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency,  when  it  was  released  from  the  charge  of  the  railroad,  so  that 
it  could  be  transported  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ! 

A.  I  am  speaking  about  the  Shoshones  and  Bannacks. 

Q.  1  know  that ;  but  do  yon  know  anything  as  to  the  time  that  it  was 
released? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  The  flour  I  shipped  out  during  August  and  Sep 
tember  I  think  went  along  pretty  promptly,  but  my  impression  is  that 
there  was  some  delay  at  Cheyenne  while  Mr.  McCann  wras  in  Washing 
ton,  but  to  what  extent  it  was  delayed  I  am  not  advised. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  any  complaints  in  regard  to  the  flour  you 
sent  to  Cheyenne  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir $  I  never  have.  I  have  heard  a  general  complaint  about 
the  flour,  but  there  never  has  been  a  sack  of  flour  condemned  at  the  Red 
Cloud  agency  that  was  traced  back  to  Barclay  White  or  myself. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  This  flour  put  up  in  88-pound  sacks  was  shipped  to  Cheyenne  for 
the  Red  Cloud  agency  '? 


133 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  I  think  if  you  will  follow  them  closely  you  will  find 
that  the  number  of  pounds  was  not  marked  upon  the  bags;  that  they 
were  issued  as  100  pounds  of  flour  to  the  Indians.  I  state  this  merely 
as  my  opinion.  I  was  informed  that  flour  that  had  been  shipped  out 
there  by  me  had  been  sold  in  Cheyenne ;  but  I  give  this  merely  as  a 
rumor.  In  cases  of  this  kind  there  are  plenty  of  rumors  without  much 
foundation. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  specimen  of  flour  that  Professor 
Marsh  saw  at  the  Bed  Cloud  agency;  did  you  ever  see  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir:  I  did  not.  I  believe  the  Professor  says  that  the  way  he 
came  by  that  sample  was  that  he  saw  a  squaw  carrying  the  sack  away, 
and  it  fell  off  her  back  and  bursted;  and  it  was  a  single  sack,  and  the 
flour  was  rotten. 

THE  CHAIRMAN.  He  said  that  the  flour  was  very  bad,  and  nobody 
would  eat  it. 

WITNESS.  Well,  now,  every  sack  of  my  flour  was  in  double  sacks;  there 
was  not  an  exception,  and  therefore  this  could  not  have  been  my  flour. 
There  were  some  depredations  committed  by  some  Indians  on  the  plains 
recently,  and  the  way  they  discovered  who  the  Indians  were  (they  were 
Sioux)  was  that  their  tents  were  made  out  of  flour-sacks  branded  Anchor 
Mills,  and  that  it  was  T.  S.  Clarkson's  inspection  brand.  I  think  that 
was  furnished  in  1873.  I  furnished  it  to  Baldwin.  I  bought  some  other 
from  Mr.  Lovelaud.  And  when  Professor  Marsh  speaks  of  miscellane 
ous  lots,  I  presume  he  means  different  brands,  and  that  was  it ;  and  at 
the  end  of  the  season  out  of  the  whole  lot  there  were  103  sacks  rejected. 
Mr.  McCann  wrote  to  me  in  August  or  September  that  Martin  had  fur 
nished  1,700  odd  sacks,  and  therefore  there  was  (so  much  more)  needed 
to  complete  the  contract.  Now,  this  flour  that  that  squaw  got  might 
have  been  furnished  by  those  Indian  traders  out  there  who  are  appointed 
in  the  interest  of  the  Indian  agent,  and  if  that  flour  was  not  furnished 
by  Mr.  Martin,  the  failing  contractor,  it  must  have  got  to  them  through 
the  authorized  traders  at  the  post.  You  see,  with  Martin's  facilities,  it 
was  utterly  impossible  for  him  to  fill  that  contract. 

Q.  Does  he  own  a  mill  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  He  is  just  a  speculator.  When  I  set  myself  right,  then 
I  am  for  Professor  Marsh  after  that.  I  know  something  of  the  deviltry 
that  is  practiced  in  this  business.  I  have  been  here  seventeen  years,  and 
am  acquainted  with  all  the  Indian  agencies,  and  it  is  impossible  for  a 
respectable  man  to  take  a  position  as  Indian  agent  at  $125  per  month 
and  live  on  that  alone  and  come  out  worth  a  fortune  at  the  end  of  three 
or  four  years.  The  whole  system  is  wrong.  This  flour  ought  not  to  be 
bought  by  contract  yonder  in  New  York.  The  contract  ought  to  be 
awarded  right  here,  and  let  millers  supply  the  flour ;  it  has  to  be  made 
here  anyhow,  and  it  must  be  supplied  by  persons  on  the  ground  with 
facilities  for  furnishing  it.  The  idea  that  Indian  flour  is  poorer  than 
other  flour  ought  totbe  gotten  rid  of.  Flour  has  an  intrinsic  value,  arid 
if  a  contractor  agrees  to  furnish  it  at  less  than  the  market  price,  he  is 
obliged  to  cheat  in  quantity  or  quality. 

Q.  You  state  you  had  a  letter  from  McCann  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir.  He  comes  down.  He  is  a  member  of  the  church,  and 
so  am  I,  and  he  thought  that  men  making  professions  as  we  did  ought 
not  to  get  into  this  kind  of  a  row.  I  was  willing  to  risk  the  church  re 
lations  if  he  was.  He  is  divorced  from  his  wife,  and  is  generally  a 
bad  egg. 

Q.  Have  you  got  the  letter  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  is  at  my  house. 


134 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  in  reference  to  delay  in  the  transportation 
of  other  Indian  supplies  in  consequence  of  the  non-payment  of  freight, 
besides  this  flour  that  laid  at  Bryan  £ 

A.  Nothing  that  I  would  want  to  state  under  oath.  The  information 
comes  to  nie  that  not  only  my  flour  was  allowed  to  lie  without  the 
freight  being  paid  on  it,  but  other  goods  besides.  McCann  neglects  his 
whole  duties  as  transporter  of  Indian  supplies. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  transportation  of  blankets? 
A.  Xo,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  speak  of  McCanii  as  having  made  the  contract  with  the 
Union  Pacific  Eailroad  Company? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  did  that,  I  suppose,  in  his  character  as  a  contractor  for  the 
Government? 

A.  I  fancy  that  this  contract  with  the  Union  Pacific  Eailroad  would 
be  the  result  of  a  contract  Avith  the  Government.  He  wrould  contract 
with  the  Government  to  transport  the  flour  and  other  supplies,  say  from 
Omaha,  then  he  would  make  an  arrangement  with  the  Union  Pacific 
Kailroad  so  as  to  afford  him  a  profit. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  further  information  or  suggestions  that  you  could 
give  us  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  have  sought  to  make  such  suggestions  as  might 
guide  you  in  Washington,  and  in  looking  after  McCann.  I  think  that 
McCann  is  ike  point  Wappui  of  the  whole  mischief  in  the  Ked  Cloud 
agency.  I  think  the  stealing  is  done  through  him  pretty  much. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  beef  ? 

A.  I  do  not.  I  believe  they  guess  at  the  weight.  I  never  furnished 
any  beef.  Under  date  of  Cheyenne,  Wyoming,  August  26,  1874,  Mr. 
D.  J.  McCann  wrote  me  a  letter,  in  which  he  says:  uHave  you  the  samples 
of  flour  furnished  by  you  to  the  Department  in  June?  I  can  send  you 
the  samples  I  have  had,  and  which  will  guide  the  inspection,  or  you  can 
arrange  to  have  the  flour  inspected  as  loaded  by  Inspector  Clarkson. 
This  is  upon  the  supposition  that  you  contracted  for  the  2,275  sacks.'7 
I  understand  the  flour  which  I  furnished,  and  about  1,700  sacks 
that  Mr.  McCann  says  Martin  furnished,  would  fill  the  contract  of 
5,500  sacks.  I  have  always  regretted  my  connection  with  the  88-pound 
sack  business,  and  1  am  very  glad  to  have  had  this  opportunity  of  ex 
plaining  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Professor  Marsh  says  it  was  "  in  a  single  sacl^  without  any  brand 
whatever."     That  is  not  descriptive  of  your  flour  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  On  its  way  could  it  be  changed  ? 

A.  It  could  be  changed  without  difficulty.  If  you  find  that  Mr. 
McCaun  is  not  a  man  that  would  do  that,  probably  it  was  not  changed  ; 
but  if  you  find  that  he  is  a  man  that  would  be  likely  to  do  it,  you  may- 
infer  that  it  was  done. 


135 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  your  flour  was  subjected  to  a  second 
inspection  at  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Is  it  usual  to  subject  flour  to  a  second  inspection  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  the  inspection  grew  out  of  this  change  of  samples 
that  I  have  explained  here.  When  the  difference  in  the  two  samples 
was  discovered,  the  Indian  commission  took  the  precaution  to  re- inspect 
it  at  Cheyenne,  and  then  103  sacks  were  thrown  out.  I  did  not  care  par 
ticularly  about  it. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Thursday,  July  29,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  H.  C.  BOSTWICK. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Bostwick,  you  are  a  Government  store  keeper  here,  I 
understand. 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here  in  that  capacity  ? 

A.  Since  the  18th  of  November  last. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  receiving  some  flour  shipped  by  Barclay  White, 
consigned  to  Mr.  McCann,  who  is  the  contractor  for  transportation  of 
freight,  I  believe  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  inspection  of  that  flour  after  it 
arrived  here  ? 

A.  It  was  re-inspected  by  Mr.  Coakley,  by  the  orders  of  the  Commis 
sioner.  Mr.  Long  was  appointed  inspector ;  Mr.  Coakley  was  appointed, 
1  suppose,  by  Mr.  Long. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  of  another  lot  of  flour  received  about 
the  same  time,  shipped  by  J.  H.  Martin,  from  Denver1? 

A.  The  most  of  Martin's  flour,  and  the  most  of  the  flour  that  was  re 
ceived,  inspected  by  Barclay  White,  of  Omaha,  was  received  before  I 
came  here,  but  a  good  portion  of  it  was  remaining  as  rejected  flour  in 
the  warehouse  here,  after  I  took  my  office. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  flour  which  was  rejected  was  mostly 
from  the  lot  shipped  by  Martin  or  from  the  lot  shipped  by  White  ! 

A.  Well,  I  could  not  tell  you,  sir;  I  could  not  say  which  part  came 
from  Martin  and  which  came  from  White.  1  was  not  able  to  know, 
because,  being  rejected  flour,  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  When  goods  are  received  at  the  Government  store-house  for  Red 
Cloud  agency,  are  they  shipped  upon  the  order  of  the  agent  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Not  necessarily.  It  is  supposed  that  all  goods  that  come  into  my 
possession  for  Red  Cloud  agency  I  should  ship  to  Red  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  How  do  you  ship  those  goods  J? 

A.  By  cattle-trains  and  mule-trains. 

Q.  Have  you  the  power  to  call  for  those  cattle-trains  ? 

A.  I  have  not  5  they  are  fuuished  by  the  contractor. 

Q.  Then  the  goods  "are  not  forwarded  until  the  contractor  sees  proper 
to  call  at  your  store-house  for  them,  and  take  them  away  ? 


A.  Here  is  tbe  way :  The  contractor,  Mr.  McCann,  makes  a  contract  with 
A,  B,  and  C,  and  so  on,  to  take  goods  from  me  and  take  them  to  lied 
Cloud  agency.  Well,  they  are  all  very  anxious  to  keep  their  trains 
going  as  fast  as  possible,  and  they  would  call  for  goods  every  fifteen 
minutes  if  they  could  get  them  and  there  were  that  many  trains.  They 
bother  me  almost  to  death  about  them. 

Q.  When  you  deliver  them  goods  for  Red  Cloud  agency  is  it  necessary 
that  Mr.  McCann,  the  contractor,  should  be  there  to  receive  them  from 
you,  or  do  you  turn  them  over  directly  to  the  men  he  has  employed  to 
take  them '? 

A.  Usually  Mr.  McCann  says  to  these  men  that  are  under  contract, 
"  You  go  to  the  warehouse,"  or  "  to  the  store-keeper,  and  there  will  be 
loading  for  you."  And  if  there  is  loading  for  them  I  load  them,  know 
ing  that  they  are  the  men  that  are  under  contract  with  Mr.  McCanu  for 
this  transportation. 

Q.  Does  McCann  transport  most  of  these  goods  by  means  of  these 
sub-contractors,  or  does  he  transport  any  portion  of  them  himself? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  he  has  only  a  small  outfit  that  usually  runs.  It  had  been 
run  for  a  good  many  years  before  (so  I  understand;  I  don't  know  this  of  my 
own  knowledge)  by  Mr.  John  Comptou,  but  perhaps  it  is  not  necessary 
to  put  down  things  I  don't  positively  know.  Mr.  Compton  was  running 
the  train  for  Mr.  McCann;  I  don't  know  at  what  time  or  what  points. 
After  I  came  here  McCanu  had  a  train  ;  at  least  I  supposed  it  was  him. 
I  never  made  out  any  wagon-bills,  or  no  wagon-bills  were  made  out,  to 
Mr.  McCann  5  they  were  made  out  to  Mr.  Compton,  but  it  is  generally 
called  McCann's  train.  Whether  it  is  correct  or  not  I  am  not  able  to  say; 
and  after  Mr.  Compton  left,  (his  health  became  poor  and  he  left  this  spring 
quite  early,)  then  Mr.  T.  M.  Sawyer  had  the  train  in  charge.  I  only 
know  it  as  it  is  generally  known  as  McCann's  train. 

Q.  Was  there  ever  any  complaint  by  Agent  Saville  to  you  about  the 
detention  of  goods  here  at  your  warehouse! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Goods  were  always  promptly  forwarded  when  they  came  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  with  the  exception  of,  perhaps,  last  winter,  when  we  had 
a  severe  storm,  and  it  was  quite  difficult  to  get  transportation  ready  at 
that  time,  because  they  had  no  sheds  or  barns  here,  (they  never  put  up 
any  hay  in  this  country,)  and  the  cattle  strayed  away,  and  it  was  quite 
difficult  at  one  time  last  winter  to  get  the  cattle  together  to  get  trans 
portation  over  to  the  agency;  but  I  succeeded  in  getting  some  two  or 
three  trains  on  the  road.  I  got  them  started  with  goods,  and  they  got  as 
far  as  the  Platte,  when  another  severe  storm  overtook  them  and  drove 
the  cattle  away  again.  About  this  time  the  Department  ordered  the 
use  of  an  odometer  to  measure  the  distance  from  hereto  Red  Cloud,  and 
the  party  started  from  my  office  and  got  as  far  as  the  Platte,  and  had 
to  make  their  quarters  at  Fort  Laramie,  which  was  as  far  as  they  could 
go.  and  they  never  completed  the  measurement. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  distance  was  ever  measured  ? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  the  rejected  flour  that  was  in  the 
warehouse  when  you  took  charge  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  J.  H.  Martin  sold  it  to  Mr.  Athorp.  Mr.  O'Brien, 
the  sheriff  of  this  county,  acted  as  agent  for  Mr.  Martin.  The  business 
was  transacted  in  my  office,  and  the  Sour  was  turned  over  to  Mr.  Athorp 
at  that  time,  and  he  moved  away  over  two  hundred  sacks  of  it.  1  won't 
say  sold,  but  it  was  moved  away  from  my  office  by  Mr.  Athorp,  and 
some  of  the  same  flour  is  to-day  in  the  store  of  Pease  &  Taylor  in  this 


137 

town  ;  and  Mr.  Athorp  told  me  he  had  taken  some  of  it  out  on  his  ranch 
and  had  sold  some  of  it  to  different  parties. 

Q.  The  flour  that  you  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  do  you  remem 
ber  whether  all  that  flour  was  in  double  sacks  and  stenciled  with  the 
name  of  the  inspector  branded  on  it  ? 

A.  It  is  my  impression  now  that  all  of  that  was  in  double  sacks,  and 
the  brand  on  the  bags  was  "Indian  Department/'  I  think  it  says  ''In 
dian  Department  Flour,"  or  "Indian  Department." 

Q.  Well,  the  flour  received  at  the  warehouse  from  Martin,  was  that 
put  up  in  the  same  way  and  branded  in  the  same  way,  do  you  recol 
lect  ? 

A.  It  is  my  impression  that  it  was.  I  am  speaking  of  Martin's  flour 
all  the  time.  That  I  saw  was  in  double  sacks.  I  will  tell  you  why: 
whenCoakley  was  piercing  it  with  his  inspecting-iron,  it  was  very  hard 
to  pierce  it  through;  and  if  it  was  a  single  sack,  it  would  be  easy.  I 
think  I  noticed  when  sacks  were  torn,  and  I  was  obliged  to  sew  them  up. 
They  were  in  double  sacks. 

Q.  Now  as  to  that  which  was  received  from  Barclay  White  ? 

A.  That  flour  that  was  received  from  Barclay  White,  it  appears,  was 
furnished  by  O.  P.  Hurford.  That  was  also  branded  "  Indian  Depart 
ment,"  or  "  Indian  Department  flour"— I  think  "  Indian  Department 
flour;"  and  it  is  my  impression  (I  think  I  am  correct  in  it)  that  that  was 
in  double  sacks;  and  that  flour— the  rejected  flour  of  O.  P.  Hurford— 
(there  were  103  sacks  of  it)— remained  in  the  warehouse  of  I.  W.  French. 
The  warehouses  belonging  to  the  Indian  Department  are  at  Camp  Car- 
ling,  a  mile  and  a  half  distant  from  here.  This  flour  I  am  speaking  of 
was  stored  in  the  warehouse  of  I.  W.  French,  but  in  the  same  building 
that  my  office  was  in.  There  was  an  arrangement  that  I  should  have 
iny  office  in  that  building,  rather  than  at  Camp  Carliug,  to  let  Cheyenne 
know  that  there  was  an  Indian  office  within  the  limits  of  Cheyenne 
without  going  out  so  far.  About  those  103  sacks  of  flour  :  Late  this 
spring  I  received  an  order,  or  rather  two  orders  together.  One  was  an 
order  from  D.  J.  McCaim  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  for  me  to  deliver  over  to  O. 
P.  Hurford  the  103  sacks  of  rejected  flour  branded  Barclay  WThite,  and 
rejected  by  Mr.  Coakley ;  and  accompanying  that  order  from  D.  J.  Mc- 
Cann  was  an  order  from  Mr.  Hurford  to  me  to  turn  over  the  flour  to,  I 
think,  Curthburtson  &  Young.  On  the  presentation  of  the  order  of  Mr. 
Hurford  by  Messrs.  Curthburtson  &  Young,  I  let  them  have  the  103 
sacks  of  flour,  and  they  put  it  into  their  commission-store  for  sale,  and 
sold  it.  I  asked  them  what  they  got  for  it,  and  they  said  they  got  $2, 
$2.25,  and  $2.50  in  money  a  sack  for  it,  and  they  made  a  trade  for  some 
meat,  and  they  got  $3.50  a  sack  for  it.  I  always  felt  a  little  delicate 
about  seeing  the  flour  piled  up  very  conspicuously  in  a  store  on  the 
main  street,  with  Barclay  Wrhite's  name  on  it.  It  was  Indian  flour,  and 
it  looked  rather  suspicious  that  some  one  was  stealing  that  flour. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  about  that  flour  what  the  weight  of  the  sacks 
was? 

A.  Some  were  different  weights  ;  some  went  88  pounds,  some  went  89 
pounds,  some  100  pounds,  and  so  on. 

Q.  That  portion  that  you  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  did  you  weigh 
it  here  before  you  put  it  in  the  wagons  I 

A.  Every  pound  of  it,  sir  j  the  inspector  weighs  it.  I  call  on  the  in 
spector,  and  he  comes  where  the  flour  is,  and  there  he  inspects  it.  It 
don't  virtually  come  into  my  hands,  I  don't  really  receive  that  flour 
until  after  it  is  inspected,  and  then  I  receipt  to  the  inspector  for  what 
flour  he  weighs,  and  he  receipts  to  the  contractor,  whoever  he  may  be, 
and  sends  a  copy  or  a  duplicate  to  the  Department. 


138 

Q.  ADC!  when  you  ship  it  to  Red  Cloud  agency  do  you  weigh  it 
again  J? 

A.  Always. 

Q.  Put  it  in  the  wagons  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  send  to  the  agent  a  bill  of  lading  stating  the  weight? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  wagon-master — there  is  always  a  wagon-master 
with  these  trains — the  wagon-master  signs  three  bills  of  lading :  one 
he  takes  himself  as  a  memorandum  of  what  he  has  in  the  load,  one  is 
sent  to  the  agent,  and  the  third  is  retained  for  the  contractor  to  know 
what  has  been  shipped.  The  wagon-master  takes  his  bill  of  lading 
after  he  arrives  at  the  agency ;  has  his  load  weighed  or  counted  out, 
whatever  it  may  be ;  then  the  agent  that  receives  it]  if  it  is  received  in 
good  order,  certifies  to  that  effect  on  his  bill;  then  the  wagon-master 
returns  that  bill  to  the  contractor,  and  gets  his  pay  upon  it  for  transpor 
tation. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  there  were  any  bales  of  blankets  shipped 
by  you  to  Red  Cloud  agency  after  you  came  here  last  fall  1 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  shipped  some  that  came  from  Minneapolis,  Minnesota. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  could  not  tell  without  reference  to  your  books  the 
date  and  the  number  of  bales  ? 

A.  1  could  not,  sir. 

Q.  Y"ou  can  tell  by  reference  to  your  books  ! 

A.  O  yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  think  of  it  and  examine  your  book,  and  make 
me  a  memorandum. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  any  coffee  being  shipped  to  Red  Cloud 
agency  last  fall  or  winter,  after  you  came  here  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir ;  last  winter. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  notice  the  quality  of  that  coffee  ? 

A.  It  was  fair  coffee,  such  as  is  ordinarily  used  by  the  people  in  the 
country. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  tobacco  for  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  shipped  thirteen  cases  of  tobacco — very  large  cases,  with  caddies 
inside  of  the  cases ;  but  the  quality  of  it  I  don't  know  anything  about. 
It  came  from  New  York.  It  was  all  put  up  in  very  nice  shape,  and 
seemed  to  be  all  right. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  flour  was  shipped  by  you  to  the  agency 
after  you  came  here  1 

A.  I  cannot  tell  now,  but  I  will  bring  in  my  books. 

Q.  Will  you  bring  in  your  books  to-morrow  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a  book  showing  all  the  goods  shipped  to  Red  Cloud 
agency  $ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Y^ou  say  that  in  loading  a  team  with  flour  you  weigh  it  all  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Y"ou  pay  no  attention  to  the  number  of  sacks,  but  rather  to  the 
weight  ? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir ;  I  keep  the  number  of  sacks.  I  will  tell  you  the  rea 
son  why  I  weigh  them.  It  is  especially  for  the  accommodation  of  the 
wagon-master.  Now  I  weigh  everything,  with  the  exception  of  sugar. 
The  sugar  that  comes  to  me  with  the  barrel  perfect,  and  the  inspector's 


139 

brand  on  it,  and  marked  so  many  pounds  net — gross  witQ  the  tare — I 
take  it  for  granted,  if  the  barrel  is  perfect  and  the  mark  has  apparently 
not  been  disturbed,  that  that  is  the  proper  weight  of  the  contents. 
That,  of  course,  I  don't  weigh.  But  if  I  was  going  to  receive  of  Mr. 
Coakley,  and  if  he  would  weigh  out  to  me  forty  thousand  pounds  of 
flour,  and  I  had  a  train  waiting  for  those  forty  thousand  pounds  of 
flour,  and  they  wanted  forty  thousand  pounds  of  flour,  and  I  had  just 
got  through  inspecting  it,  it  is  not  probable  I  would  weigh  it  again  un 
less  I  would  weigh  it  for  the  benefit  of  the  wagon-master,  who  gener 
ally  puts  three  or  four  thousand  pounds  on  a  wagon.  It  is  simply  for 
the  accommodation  of  the  wagon  master  in  that  case. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  sacks  of  flour  are  generally  100  pounds  weight ; 
are  reckoned  as  such  ? 

A.  1  receipt  to  Mr.  Coakley  for  just  exactly  what  flour  there  is.  If 
there  are  only  88  pounds  in  a  sack,  or  90,  or  92,  or  98,  or  100,  I  receipt 
for  it,  and  ship  it  as  I  receive  it. 

Q.  I  want  a  direct  answer  to  my  question.  In  making  up  a  load  of 
flour  for  delivery  from  your  warehouse,  would  you.  at  the  time,  weigh  it 
and  get  a  receipt  for  the  weight  ?  Would  you  weigh  it  out  yourself  on 
to  the  wagon  ? 

A.  O,  yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  in  all  cases  ? 

A.  Every  shipment  of  flour,  unless  it  was  just  as  I  have  stated — that 
we  had  just  made  an  inspection,  and  I  knew  just  exactly  what  there  was 
in  that  pile,  or  that  lot;  in  that  case  I  would  not  weigh  it  again. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  in  all  instances  you  knew  from  your  own 
weighing  of  it,  or  from  having  just  seen  it  weighed,  the  exact  number  of 
pounds  which  were  delivered  to  the  driver  ? 

A.  Invariably,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  no  instance  in  which  you  counted  out  the  sacks. and 
reckoned  them  each  at  100  pounds  9 

A.  No,  sir;  never. 

Q.  Well,  then,  in  all  cases,  as  I  understand,  you  give  the  driver  his 
bill  of  the  weight,  and  you  send  to  the  agent  a  bill  of  lading  which 
comes  back  to  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  don't  come  back  to  me.  After  it  passes  out  of  my 
hands  I  have  nothing  more  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  record,  or  give  any  receipt  upon  which  Mr. 
McCaun  is  to  be  paid  for  his  transportation  ! 

A.  No  more  than  his  wagon-bills. 

Q.  When  they  pass  out  of  your  hands  and  go  to  Mr.  Saville  you  don't 
see  them  again  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  in  my  business  capacity. 

Q.  So  that  you  don't  officially  know  whether  that  flour  reaches  its 
destination  or  not  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  in  the  course  of  business  those  receipts  go  tc 

A.  They  go  into  those  wagon-bills,  as  we  call  them ;  those  wagon- 
bills  that  "the  wagon-master  takes  are  returned.     If  the  goods  go  to  the 
agent  correctly,  he  certifies  to  that  ;  if  there  is  a  deficiency  he  certifies 
on  the  bills  so  much  deficiency  ;  then  that  is  kept  deposited  here  in  tl 
First  National  Bank  for  payment— tor  the  payment  of  the  wagon-mas 
ter's  transportation,  not  the  payment  of  Mr.  McCanu's  transportatioi 
but  virtually  it  is  the  transportation  of  these  men  that  Mr.  J 
hires  to  take  those  goods  from  here. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  the  bills  come  back,  and  they  are  paid  by  the  I  IK, 
where  McCaun  has  funds  ? 


140 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  speak  of  the  paper  that  goes  to  the  agent. 

A.  That,  I  suppose,  the  agent  sends  to  the  Depart  men  t. 

Q.  Do  you  send  a  duplicate  to  the  Department  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  any  account  of  the  amount  of  flour  shipped  by  you 
from  your  store-house  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  Nothing,  only  in  the  wagon-bills  ;  I  make  out  a  duplicate— 

Q.  When  you  receive  a  shipment  of  flour  from  any  quarter,  and  it  is 
inspected  and  comes  into  your  hands,  do  you  give  any  receipt  for  it  'I 

A.  I  never  have  received  any  flour  that  has  been  inspected  by  others  ; 
but  there  was  an  order,  which  is  now  in  my  office,  not  to  ship  any  flour 
to  Red  Cloud  agency  unless  it  is  inspected  by  Mr.  Coakley. 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  receiving  to-day  a  thousand  sacks  of  flour  which 
had  passed  inspection  and  came  into  your  hands  as  store-keeper,  would 
you  then  give  any  receipt  for  it  ? 

A.  I  think  not,  sir.  I  have  orders  from  the  Department  to  ship  no 
flour  unless  it  is  inspected  by  Mr.  Coakley.  I  don't  receipt  for  goods 
which  come  into  my  hands  as  store-keeper.  I  do  receipt  for  goods 
which  are  shipped  to  me,  in  order  that  Mr.  McCanii  may  get  his  trans 
portation.  These  receipts  are  simply  evidence  that  a  certain  amount 
of  goods  has  been  received  for  transportation. 

Q.  So  far  as  I  understand  you,  Mr.  Saville  is  the  person  who  gives 
the  final  receipts  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  is  on  my  receipts  that  Mr.  McCann  gets  his 
pay  for  transportation  that  he  pays  out  for  bringing  these  goods  from 
New  York  or  Chicago,  or  wherever  it  may  be,  to  Cheyenne,  and  he 
would  get  his  pay  for  transportation  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud 
agency  on  Mr.  Saville's  receipts  ;  and  the  contractor,  who  furnished  the 
goods,  would  get  his  pay  on  Saville's  receipts. 

Q.  Does  your  office  furnish  to  the  Department  the  means  of  deter 
mining  whether  all  goods  received  by  you  are  forwarded  by  you  ?  How 
could  it  be  known  at  the  Department  whether  or  not  the  goods  which 
had  come  into  your  hands  had  been  sent  forward  to  any  Indian  agency  1 

A.  I  receipt  to  the  inspector  for  all  flour  turned  over  to  me. 

Q.  Will  you  be  kind  enough  to  state  from  whom  you  received  your 
appointment? 

A.  .From  Dr.  Saville,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  other  annuity  goods  pass  through  your  hands  ? 

A.  All  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  J.  K.  Foreman  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside  when  you  are  at  home  ? 

A.  At  Cheyenne,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  reside  before  you  came  to  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  I  resided  in  Sioux  City.     I  am  a  native  of  Vermont. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  inspection  of  flour  by  Mr.  French  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  own  personal  knowledge.  It  occurred  before  I  came 
here.  I  have  in  my  office  samples  of  flour,  in  little  boxes,  labeled  "  sam 
ples  of  flour  inspected  by  I.  W.  French ;"  and  also  samples  furnished 
from  the  Department  for  inspection  to  compare  them  with  the  flour 
furnished.  And  Mr.  Marsh  telegraphed  Mr.  Coakley,  the  inspector,  to 
send  him  a  sample  of  flour  which  he  inspects  by,  and  I  gave  Mr.  Coakley  a 
sample  to  send  to  him,  (Mr.  Marsh.)  Mr.  Coakley  inspected  all  the 
flour  that  was  forwarded  to  Red  Cloud  agency  after  I  came  into  office 


141 

here.  A  sack  of  flour  used  to  weigh  100  pounds.  It  appears  tbat  Mr. 
Palmer,  the  store-keeper  before  me,  did  not  really  understand  about  this 
business,  and  he  took  the  liberty  of  telegraphing  Mr.  Smith,  the  Com 
missioner,  in  regard  to  it,  and  I  found  the  telegram  in  my  office.  The 
Commissioner,  in  substance,  says :  "  The  number  of  pounds  in  a  sack  is 
not  essential  if  the  contractor  delivers  the  amount  that  he  agrees  to." 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  Have  you  that  telegram,  sir"? 

A.  I  have,  sir. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  You  had  better  bring  it  up  to-morrow. 

WITNESS.  All  right,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  a  little  while  ago  of  an  attempt  having  been  made  by 
somebody  to  measure  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  it  ? 

A.  When  I  spoke  of  it  I  was  trying  to  think  of  the  man's  name.  He 
is  a  lieutenant  of  the  Army,  who  was  up  here  at  Fort  Russell,  but  he  is 
not  here  at  present  j  he  was  ordered  to  Fort  Smith  or  Fort  Steele. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Friday,  July  30,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

The  examination  of  Mr.  Bostwick  was  resumed. 

Mr.  Bostwick  brought  with  him  his  official  books  and  papers,  and 
proceeded  as  follows : 

I  will  commence  where  I  left  off.  I  told  you  last  night  that  I  had  in 
my  office  a  telegram  from  Commissioner  Smith,  stating  that  the  quantity 
of  flour  in  a  sack  wTas  not  material.  This  is  it : 

WASHINGTON,  December  26,  1874. 

S.  PALMER,  Cheyenne,  W.  T.  : 

The  quantity  of  flour  per  sack  is  not  material,  provided  the  actual  weight  be  certified  by 

iDSpeCt°r'  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 

Now,  as  we  are  on  the  flour  question  we  will  continue.  Here  is  the 
style  of  receipt  that  I  give  to  the  inspector  when  he  turns  the  flour  over 
to  me.  [Showing  receipt.]  That  is  a  retained  copy  that  I  keep  in  my 
office  for  reference. 

[The  witness  here  explained  to  the  commissioners,  going  over  his 
books,  his  modus  operandi  of  keeping  his  accounts.] 

The  book  of  the  store-keeper,  Mr.  Palmer,  shows  that  on  the  13th  of 
August,  1874,  there  was  received  and  inspected  by  the  inspector  220  sacks 
of  flour,  weighing  22,000  pounds ;  August  17,  225  sacks,  weighing  22,500 
pounds;  same  date,  225  sacks,  weighing  22,500  pounds;  August 20,22 
sacks,  weighing  22,000  pounds  ;  same  date,  225  sacks,  weighing  22,500 

•*•  -       -.'  ^  ^    ^  ^  ^  t  r\r*  A  i         r^r»f~~  „!_,-.     <w*-r  f\~*  •/•*•!» 

pounds  ;  2^ 
ing  22, 

sacks,  weighing  110,600°pounds,7  was%onr  received  by  the  Union  Pacific 
Kailroad,  and  I  suppose  it  came  from  Barclay  White,  but  I  do  not  know. 


142 

We  received  flour  by  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  from  Barclay  White. 
The  balance  of  the  flour  was  received  by  the  Denver  Pacific  Railroad  ; 
and  all  the  above-named  flour  was  received  on  the  contract  of  J.  H. 
Martin.  The  next  receipt  of  flour  on  Martin's  contract,  was  September 
2,  224  sacks,  weighing  22,400  pounds  ;  September  26,  by  Denver  Pacific, 
225  sacks,  weighing  22,500  pounds 5  the  next  October  8,  by  Union 
Pacific,  237  sacks,  weighing  20,856  pounds;  also  236  sacks,  weighing 
20,768  pounds;  also  250  sacks,  weighing  22,000  pounds;  also  250  sacks, 
weighing  22,000  pounds.  The  reason  why  these  separate  items  appear 
in  this  way  is  that  they  came  in  separate  cars.  The  next  was  October  8, 
received  of  J.  H.  Martin,  per  O'Brien,  5  sacks  of  flour,  weighing  500 
pounds  ;  the  next  October  21,  by  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  250  sacks,  at  88 
pounds,  weighing  22,000  pounds ;  the  next,  same  date,  220  sacks  by  Union 
Pacific,  at  99.8  pounds,  weighing  21,956  pounds;  next,  by  Union  Pa 
cific  same  date,  250  sacks,  weighing  88.4  pounds  each ;  total  22,100 
pounds;  same  date,  by  Denver  Pacific  Railroad,  225  sacks,  97.8  pounds 
each,  weighing  22,005  pounds  ;  same  date,  by  Denver  Pacific,  224  sacks, 
97.4  pounds  each,  total  21,817.6  pounds;  next,  October  24,  by  Union 
Pacific  Road,  250  sacks,  87.65  pounds  each,  total  21, 912 J  pounds ; 
next,  October  28,  by  Union  Pacific,  120  sacks,  91  sacks  of  100.4  pounds 
each,  and  29  sacks  at  88.4  pounds  each,  total  11,700  pounds;  also, 
ou  the  same  date,  220  sacks,  by  Union  Pacific,  at  100.2  pounds  each, 
total  22,044  pounds;  on  the  same  date,  225  sacks,  by  K.  P.,  (Kansas 
Pacific,)  225  sacks,  99  pounds  each,  weighing  22,275  pounds.  (All 
marked  "By  K.  P.  Road"  really  came  by  the  Denver  Pacific.)  The 
next  flour  received  was,  on  November  7,  by  Denver  Pacific,  111  sacks 
of  flour,  98  pounds  each,  weighing  10,878  pounds ;  the  next  was  No 
vember  10,  by  Denver  Pacific,  125  sacks,  98.6  pounds  each,  weighing 
12,325  pounds.  That  closes  the  account  for  the  year  1874  on  J.  H. 
Martin's  contract  for  flour  delivered  for  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  any  of  this  flour  in  single  sacks? 

A.  I  think  not.  Let  me  explain  this.  The  reason  why  I  say  this  is 
because  I  might  as  well  say  right  here  that  I  don't  know,  for  the  simple 
reason  that  I  don't  know  anything  of  this  flour  that  is  shipped  away. 
1  could  not  say  positively  whether  all  of  it  was  in  single  sacks  or  in 
double  sacks. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  about  it  prior  to  the  18th  of  November? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  know  anything  in  regard  to  this  business,  only  as 
the  books  show,  before  the  18th  of  November  ;  after  the  18th  of  Novem 
ber,  I  have  personal  knowledge  and  am  ready  to  explain. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Bostwick,  do  you  know  anything  about  the  pork  that 
was  received  here  for  Red  Cloud  agency  after  your  arrival  here  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  do  you  know  anything  of  the  inspection  of  that  pork  ? 

A.  Nothing,  only  what  is  marked  on  the  barrel ;  and  at  the  same  time 
Dr.  Saville  at  one  time  was  down  here,  and  he  was  anxious  to  see  the 
pork,  and  he  and  I  examined  it  together. 

Q.  How  did  you  make  that  examination  ? 

A.  By  opening  a  barrel. 

Q.  How  many  barrels  did  you  open  ? 

A.  We  looked  at  some  at  Camp  Carling,  and  also  one  barrel  that  was 
in  this  warehouse.  1  cannot  say  positively — maybe  three. 

Q.  What  kind  of  pork  was  that  which  you  looked  at  ? 


143 

A.  I  can't  describe  it  as  pork-men  describe  it,  but  I  can  describe  it  my 
way  as  to  the  quality. 

Q.  Just  state  your  idea  of  it. 

A.  It  was  lean,  sweet,  pork.  That  covers,  I  guess,  all  of  it.  The 
pork  was  more  lean  than  fat. 

Q.  Thin  1 

A.  Well,  it  was  all  thicknesses,  1  guess;  but  the  fat  of  the  pork  was 
thin ;  we  examined  it  and  found  it  was  good,  sweet  pork,  and  good, 
sweet  brine  ;  but  it  was  more  thin  than  fat. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  kind  of  pieces  were  they  ;  from  what  part  of  the  hog  7 
A.  I  could  not  tell  except  that  it  was  lean  pork ;  it  was  sweet  and 
all  fit  to  eat,  and  did  not  smell  bad. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  use  the  Indians  make  of  pork  ? 
A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  not  venture  an  opinion  as  to  whether  this  was  the  kind 
of  pork  which  would  be  proper  and  profitable  to  supply  to  Indians! 
A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  State  what  your  books  show  in  reference  to  the  receipt  of  blankets 
for  lied  Cloud  agency  since  July,  1874. 

A.  There  was  received  on  the  22d  day  of  September,  1874,  33  bales 
of  blankets,  weighing  11,773  pounds;  and,  on  the  same  date,  2  bales  of 
blankets  weighing  724  pounds  ;  on  the  29th  of  the  same  month,  2  bales, 
weighing  040  pounds.  The  books  show  that  there  were  shipped  to  lied 
Cloud  on  the  21st  of  September,  by  Dick  Dunn,  a  freighter  for  McCanu, 
2  bales  of  blankets,  weighing  together  724  pounds ;  on  September  29,  by 
Juan  Vigil,  35  bales,  weighing  12,373  pounds.  These  were  all  received 
and  shipped  before  1  came  into  office,  and  I  state  what  the  book  shows. 

| The  witness  then  produced  the  triplicate  bill  of  lading,  signed  by  D. 
J.  McCann,  contractor  for  transportation  for  the  37  bales  of  blankets 
mentioned  above.  He  also  produced  the  original  of  quarterly  report  for 
the  quarter  ending  30th  September,  1874,  showing  the  receipt  of  35 
bales  of  blankets  during  the  quarter,  and  the  shipment  of  the  same  to 
Agent  Saville  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  Also  the  quarterly  returns  of  the 
fourth  quarter  of  1874.  showing  the  receipt  and  shipment  of  2  bales  of 
blankets,  same  as  above.] 

Q.  What  blankets  have  you  received  since  you  came  into  office— since 
the  18th  of  September,  1874,  and  how  have  they  been  disposed  of! 

A.  I  received,  February  5,  1875,  17  bales  of  blankets,  weighing  6,100 
pounds ;  and  on  March  23,  (that  is  the  time  we  had  that  big  storm,)  I 
shipped  17  bales  of  blankets  to  Ked  Cloud  agency ;  2  bales  by  Dick 
Dunn,  and  15  bales  by  J.  Small.  Now  let  me  further  state,  there  is  a 
box  of  blankets,  weighing  440  pounds,  that  was  shipped  at  the  same  time, 
in  February  or  in  March.  They  were  fine  blankets.  I  think  they  were 
shipped  in  'March,  but  they  were  not  received  for  a  long  time ;  we  were 
looking  them  up  and  looking  them  up  and  could  not  find  where  they 
were,  and  I  wrote  to  the  agent  in  Minneapolis,  by  instructions  from  Dr. 
Saville,  and  telegraphed  to  him  several  times  that  he  must  find  that  box 
of  blankets,  and  finally  they  were  found  at  Council  Bluffs. 

Q.  What  became  of  those  blankets? 

A.  I  forwarded  them  to  the  agency. 


144 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 
What  do  you  mean  by  fine  blankets?     Are  they  different  from  the 


ordinary  blankets  issued  to  the  Indians! 

! 

i 

received  in  reference  to  it: 


A.  They  were  some  fine  blankets  that  I  understand  (not  of  my  own 
knowledge)  were  specially  ordered  for  the  chiefs,  to  take  with  them  to 
Washington;  but  they  did  not  get  them  in  time.  This  is  the  letter  I 


U>TION;PACIFIC  RAILROAD  COMPANY, 

GENERAL  FREIGHT  DEPARTMENT, 

Omaha,  May  22,  1875. 

(E.  P.  Vining,  general  freight  agent.) 

DEAR  SIR  :  In  reply  to  your  favor  of  the  14th  instant.  I  would  say  that  one  box  of 
blankets  consigned  to  J.  J.  Saville's  account,  1).  J.  McCaun,  Cheyenne,  was  held  at  Council 
Bluffs,  owing  to  a  misunderstanding  regarding  the  charges.  The  box  was  ordered  forward 
on  the  J7th  inst. 

Yours,  truly, 

E.  P.  VINING. 

General  Freight  Agent. 
C.  H.  BOSTWICK,  p:*q., 

Cheyenne,  Wyoming. 

Q.  Can  you  show  what  time  they  were  received  here  ? 
A.  O,  yes  ;  it  was  only  a  short  time  ago.  By  reference  to  the  books 
J  find  they  were  received  on  June  3,  1875,  and  shipped  on  the  same  day 
by  Dick  Dunn.  He  took  them  from  the  railroad  freight  depot  to.  Keil 
Cloud  agency.  [The  witness  here  produced  several  samples  of  flour.] 
These  are  samples  of  flour  which  I  found  in  my  office  when  I  took  pos 
session  of  it,  and  they  have  been  there  ever  since,  and  when  I  first  came 
there  were  marked  as  they  are  now  marked.  I  find  among  the  papers 
in  ray  office  a  telegram  and  a  letter  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  addressed  to  my  predecessor,  Mr,  Palmer,  about  the  inspection 
and  forwarding  of  flour.  I  suppose  the  telegram  preceded  the  letter. 
The  telegram  is  as  follows : 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  6,  1874. 
(Received  at  Cheyenne,  6.     ]0,  a.) 
To  S.  H.  PALMER, 

Cheyenne,   JV,  T.  : 

An  inspector  will  be  appointed  soon.  If  flour  should  be  forwarded  immediately,  retain 
sample  of  that  delivered  to  compare  with  sample  to  be  sent  from  New  York. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 

The  letter  is  dated  September  26.  and  is  as  follows : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  26,  1874. 

SIR  :  This  office  is  in  receipt,  by  reference  from  the  City  National  Bank  of  Denver,  Colo 
rado,  of  an  account  in  favor  of  John  H.  Martin,  for  90,400  pounds  of  flour,  furnished  under 
date  of  5th  instant,  for  the  Indians  of  the  Ked  Cloud  agency.  This  is  supposed  to  be  the 
flour  which  you  were  directed  to  receive  and  forward,  a  sample  of  it  being  retained  to  com 
pare  with  the  sample  to  be  forwarded,  proved  on  the  inspection  to  be  equal  to  sample,  to 
give  certificate  to  that  effect.  It  will  therefore  be  necessary,  before  the  said  account  can 
be  allowed,  for  you  to  forward  your  certificate  that  the  flour  in  question  was  equal  to  the 
sample  on  which  the  contract  was  awarded. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.   SMITH,  Commissioner. 
S.  H.  PALMER,  Esq.. 

Store-Keeper,  Red  Cloud  Agency,  Cheyenne,  Wyoming. 


145 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Saturday,  July  31,  1875. 

Present:  HOD.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Professor  GEORGE  W.  ATIIER' 
TON. 

The  examination  of  Mr.  BOSTWIOK  was  resumed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  it  McCann's  agent  here  who  hires  men  and  trains  to  haul  his 
goods  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge,  sir.  I  suppose  all  the  te.ims  he  has  are  the 
teams  contracted  with,  although  sometimes,  when  an  emergency  re 
quires,  extra  teams  are  put  into  the  service. 

Q.  When  you  have  on  hand  a  lot  of  goods  or  supplies  that  you  want 
to  send  up  to  the  agency,  how  do  you  get  the  teams  to  send  them  ? 

A.  Usually  there  are  teams  here — teams  that  have  contracts  with  Mc- 
Cann  ;  but  if  an  emergency  requires  that  goods  which  are  here  are 
necessary  to  be  forwarded  to  the  agency,  I  have  sometimes  got  extra 
teams,  but  with  no  authority  from  any  one,  thinking  that  it  was  part  of 
my  business  to  get  transportation  and  forward  those  goods  to  the  agency, 
because  it  was  necessary  to  have  them  there.  For  instance :  I  have  never 
sent  any  goods  to  Spotted  Tail  agency  at  all  until  this  season ;  Mr. 
Howard,  when  he  was  here  a  short  time  ago,  stated  it  was  necessary  to 
have  some  goods  at  the  agency  as  soon  as  possible.  All  the  teams  were 
going  with  goods  to  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  I  loaded  Small  &  Ames's 
cattle  and  mule  train  at  the  price  of  transportation  regulated  by  D.  J. 
McCann. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  So  Mr.  McCann  has  no  agent  here  to  make  special  contracts  ? 

A.  I  suppose  none  but  Mr.  Wilde,  cashier  of  the  First  National  Bank. 
My  instructions  were  that  Mr.  McCann  said  Mr.  Wilde  would  pay  the 
freights,  and  Mr.  Wilde  would  pay  all  the  wagon  bills. 

Q.  Haven't  you  already  said  that  you  were  Mr.  McCaun's  agent  to 
employ  teams  ? 

A.  Never  in  the  world,  sir. 

Q.  I  so  understood  it,  and  think  we  have  it  so  on  the  record. 

A.  That  is  the  only  way  I  employed  the  teams. 

Q.  You  say  now  you  had  no  authority  from  Mr.-  McCann  to  hire 
drivers  or  teams  when  an  emergency  required  \ 

A.  Never,  sir  ;  if  I  said  so  it  was  by  mistake. 

Q.  Do  you  now  say,  and  are  you  willing  to  put  your  signature  to 
it  under  oath,  that  you  have  no  authority  and  never  had  authority 
from  Mr.  J.  H.  McCann  to  employ  teams  in  case  of  emergency  ? 

A.  I  do  say  so,  and  will  swear  to  it  now. 

Q,  Well,  you  have  done  it  and  done  it  repeatedly  ? 

A.  Not  repeatedly. 

Q.  In  how  many  instances  have  you  done  it  ? 

A.  Maybe  two  or  three  times  in  all,  sir,  and  that  was  only  when  it 
was  necessary  to  forward  goods,  and  there  was  no  other  transportation 
here  to  take  them. 

Q.  Hadn't  he  any  other  agent  in  town  ? 

A.  None  except  Mr.  Wilde,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  Mr.  Wilde  is  a  banker,  and  authorized 
pay  bills  and  nothing  else  ? 

A.  I  understand  so. 

10   I  F 


146 

Q.  Then  McCann  liad  no  agent  here  with  authority  to  employ  trans 
portation  f 

A.  None  except  Mr.  Wilde. 

Q.  Why  do  you  put  in  the  name  of  Mr.  Wilde,  unless  you  know  that 
he  has  such  authority  ? 

A.  I  suppose  he  had  authority. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  has  authority  °? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  1  merely  suppose  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  person  having  authority  to  employ  transpor 
tation  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  ot  the  Indian  goods  being  detained  here 
by  the  railroad  company  for  non-payment  of  freight  ? 

A.  There  are  some  cars  here  on  the  track  now,  loaded  with  supplies 
and  goods  marked  J.  J.  Saville  and  E.  A.  Howard,  care  of  D.  J.  Mc 
Cann,  for  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  which  are  held  for  pay 
ment  of  freight ;  some  of  them  have  been  here  three  or  four  days,  and 
some  of  them  five  or  six  days,  and  I  believe  some  of  them  longer. 

Q.  How  long,  do  you  believe  ? 

A.  Two  weeks  or  more;  and  I  would  like  to  have  it  explicitly  under 
stood  that  I  am  working  for  no  party  except  the  Indian  Department,  by 
appointment  of  Agent  Saville,  and  receive  no  compensation  from  any 
person  only  the  Indian  Department,  through  J.  J.  Saville. 

By  Mr,  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  J.  J.  Saville  is  receiving  any  compensation 
for  your  services  from  any  party  except  the  Government  ? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  no  information  that  he  is  ? 

A.  Not  in  the  least,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  warehouse  of  I.  W.  French,  in  which  your  office  is,  occupied 
as  a  Government  store-house  ? 

A.  It  is,  and  has  been  from  the  1st  of  July,  (this  present  month,)  and,  to 
my  knowledge,  a  lease  has  been  made  and  forwarded  to  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs.  By  virtue  of  a  letter  of  Acting  Commissioner  Chun, 
dated  June  26,  1865,  addressed  to  J.  J.  Saville,  Indian  agent,  a  lease  has 
been  executed  by  Mr.  French,  and  it  has  been  forwarded  to  Washington. 
The  terms  of  it  are  $2(;()  per  month  for  July,  August,  and  September,  1875. 
Mr.  French  declined  the  sum  of  $1,200  a  year  and  accepted  the  offer 
for  July,  August,  and  September.  The  following  is  the  letter  of  Mr. 
Clum,  and  also  my  letter  of  instructions  from  J.  J.  Saville. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  JuneM,  J875. 

SIR  :  In  reply  to  your  letter  of  the  21st  instant,  relative  to  the  necessity  of  securing-  some 
suitable  place  at  Cheyenne  tor  storing  bacon  to  be  r-eceivecl  at  that  point  for  shipment  to  Red 
Cloud  agency  and  Spotted  Tail's,  I  have  to  say  that,  in  the  opinion  of  this  Office,  the  terms 
named  by  you  for  the  rent  of  the  warehouse  of  I.  W.  French  are  too  high,  if  taken  for  the 
year. 

You  are  authorized,  however,  to  make  an  offer  of  $1,200  for  the  use  of  said  building  for 
one  year,  or  ffiOO  for  the  months  of  July,  August,  and   September,  that   being  the  length 
of  time  the  warehouse  will  be  needed  for  the  purpose  indicated. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM, 
Acting  Commissioner. 
J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Cloud  Agency,  Nebraska. 


147 

EED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBR., 

JM/t/5,  1875. 

SIR  :  Inclosed  is  a  copy  of  a  letter  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  relative  to  the 
rent  of  the  warehouse  of  I.  W.  French.  In  case  Mr.  French  declines  this  offer,  you  will  as 
certain  whether  a  cellar  can  be  obtained  in  which  to  put  the  bacon,  and  at  what  rent  and 
report  to  me  as  soon  as  possible. 

Eespectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agtnt. 
C.  H.  BOSTWICK, 

Government  Store-Keeper. 

Q.  I  notice  by  the  way-bills  of  goods  detained  here  at  Cheyenne  on 
account  of  the  non-payment  of  freight,  that  there  were  twelve  car-loads 
of  goods  consigned  to  J.  J.  Saville,  and  nine  car-loads  consigned  to  E. 
A.  Howard;  that  the  way-bills  are  dated  all  the  way  from  July  1  to  July 
29.  Now,  I  want  to  ask  you  whether  any  goods  have  been  received  by 
you  since  the  1st  day  of  July? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  how  many  car-loads,  and  what  date.  I  mean  goods  which 
arrived  here  in  the  mouth  of  July ;  I  do  not  mean  goods  that  arrived 
here  last  June  and  were  not  discharged  until  July? 

A.  You  ask  of  me  what  goods  have  been  received  from  the  railroad 
company  in  the  mouth  of  July  ? 

Q.  Yes. 

A.  I  received  180  sacks  of  coffee,  weighing  23,580  pounds 

Q.  I  ouly  want  to  know  whether  you  have  received  goods  which  arrived 
here  since  the  1st  day  of  July.  There  is  one  car-load  which  arrived  the 
30th  of  June,  which  has  not  been  discharged  yet? 

A.  Well,  now,  sir,  I  am  not  able  to  tell  you  when  they  arrived  here, 
but  1  can  tell  you  exactly  when  I  received  them  from  the  cars.  1  have 
received  in  the  month  of  July,  for  Spotted  Tail  agency,  180  sacks  of 
coffee,  weighing  23,580  pounds,  298  barrels  of  sugar,  weighing  75,283 
pounds.  That  is  all  that  is  on  my  books  that  I  received  in  the  mouth  of 
July. 

Q.  Were  those  inspected  goods  ? 

A.  They  were,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  weighed  them  ? 

A.  I  have,  sir. 

Q.  Weighed  them  all  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  correspond  in  weight  to  the  marks  upon   the  packages  1 

A.  There  were  no  marks  upon  the  packages,  only  on  the  barrels  of 
sugar.  I  took  the  marked  weight  upon  the  barrels  of  sugar;  it  1  found 
any  that  I  thought  was  not  intelligible  (though  1  did  not  find  any)  then  I 
weighed  it. 

Q.  You  took  the  weight  upon  the  barrels  of  sugar  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  the  coffee  ? 

A.  The  coffee  I  weigh. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a  record  of  those  weights  ? 

A.  Only  as  appears  on  my  books. 

Q.  Do  you  make  it  correspond  with  the  way-bill  received  ? 

A.  Not  always,  sir.  You  will  notice  here  that  I  don't.  [Showing  the 
book.]  I  have  entered  on  my  book,  in  red  ink,  the  following  :  "July  21, 
car  2532  checks  out  by  my  count  and  the  Union  Pacific  agent's  (Chey 
enne)  count  but  74  barrels.  The  Kansas  Pacific  Railroad  count  is  75 
barrels.  The  whole  weight  is  short  but  37  pounds  from  the  railroad 


148 

weights.'7  I  don't  rely  wholly  upon  myself.  •  I  always  have  some  one 
with  me  to  help  check  out,  so  that  I  may  be  correct. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  is  this  weight  on  the  barrels  certified  originally  ? 
A.  Here  is  so  much  gross,  so  much  tare,  and  so  much  net. 
Q.  Who  certifies  that  *? 

A.  I  suppose  that  is  certified  by  the  inspector's  mark,  which  appears 
on  the  head  of  the  barrel.  His  brand  appears  right  on  the  same  head. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  received  any  goods  for  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  for  the 
month  of  July,  1875  ;  and,  if  so,  what  ? 

A.  I  have,  sir,  as  follows :  July  5,  33  sacks  of  coffee,  weighing  11,382 
pounds;  275  barrels  of  sugar,  weighing  69,749  pounds;  45  barrels  of 
sugar,  weighing  11,382  pounds.  That  is  all,  sir;  that  is  all  I  have  re 
ceived,  but  there  are  other  goods  that  I  have  forwarded  to  the  ageuc3T, 
but  not  from  cars. 

Q.  Now  state,  in  your  own  way,  your  warehouse-system — your  mode  of 
receiving  goods,  and  your  mode  of  keeping  accounts  of  goods  when  they 
are  shipped  away. 

A.  My  general  system  is  that  I  send  the  goods  to  Camp  Carling.  I 
have  the  car  take  them  right  there.  Camp  Carling  is  a  mile  and  a  half 
from  here.  All  goods  are  sent  there  on  the  branch  track.  If  the  car  is 
loaded  with  sugar,  I  go  and  check  the  weights  of  the  sugar  on  a  little 
book  that  I  carry  in  my  pocket  for  that  purpose,  and  then  put  the  sugar 
in  the  warehouse ;  and  as  soon  as  I  come  back  to  the  office  I  sit  down 
and  transfer  the  weights  to  my  receiving-book. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  Do  you  transfer  the  items  or  the  aggregate  ? 

A.  The  items,  invariably,  sir;  so  many  barrels  weighing  so  much;  so 
many  sacks  of  flour  weighing  so  much. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Then  you  transfer  the  aggregate  of  each  kind  of  goods  f 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  put  the  weights  of  each  barrel  on  my  check-book,  and 
then  foot  it  up,  and  put  the  aggregate  on  my  receiving-book.  Flour  is 
also  sent  to  the  warehouse.  The  contract  is  that  flour  should  be  received 
at  Cheyenne.  Now,  the  contract  is  to  deliver  to  the  agency  ;  but  that 
for  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  was  to  be  received  at  Cheyenne. 
There  I  unload  the  cars,  pile  them  in  the  warehouse.  I  often  check  them 
to  know  the  number  of  sacks,  but  I  don't  keep  any  other  account  of 
them,  only  as  in  my  check-book,  until  I  call  upon  the  inspector  to  inspect 
it,  and  then  whatever  the  inspector  passes  I  receipt  to  him  for  the 
amount  and  carry  the  amount  immediately  on  my  books. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  it  or  see  it  weighed  ? 

A.  We  weigh  together  the  amount  which  the  inspector  passes,  and 
I  receipt  to  him  for  that  amount  and  carry  it  upon  my  books. 

Q.  Is  that  the  system  pursued  as  regards  all  goods  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  it  was  a  case  of  blankets,  would  you  do  more  than  count 
the  case  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  would  count  the  bales  of  blankets  or  ducking,  or  boxes 
of  merchandise.  I  cannot  tell  what  they  contain. 

•   Q.  So  that  absolutely  you  do  not  know  anything  personally  about 
their  contents? 

A.  No,  sir. 


149 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Then  you  are  simply  a  custodian  of  goods  '? 
A.  I  am  store-keeper. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  When  you  forward  the  goods,  what  account  do  you  keep  of  them? 

A.  I  keep  j  ast  the  same  account  that  I  do  in  receiving  them. 

Q.  Now,  what  goods  have  you  on  hand  here  in  this  building  ? 

A.  Not  one  pound  belonging  to  the  Indian  Department. 

Q-  No  bacon  ? 

A.  I  have  some  bacon,  sir,  but  it  has  not  been  inspected  ;  it  belongs 
to  Mr.  Slavens,  and  I  consider  it  as  his  until  it  has  been  inspected. 

Q.  Then  all  the  goods  that  are  here  are  goods  which  have  not  passed 
inspection  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  see  you  have  a  large  amount  of  flour  here? 

A.  It  belongs  to  Mr.  Athorp. 

Q.  You  understand  that  that  flour  was  sold  by  Mr.  O'Brien  to  Mr. 
Athorp  ? 

A.  That  I  know,  because  I  saw  the  transaction.  The  transfer  hap 
pened  right  here  in  this  office. 

Q.  But  you  don't  know  that  it  has  ever  been  rejected  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  so  informed  ? 

A.  I  have  been  informed,  with  reference  to  this  lot  which  is  here  now, 
that  Mr.  Coakley  started  to  inspect  it,  but  there  was  such  a  big  lot  of  it 
being  thrown  out  that  Mr.  Martin  became  dissatisfied  and  would  not  let 
them  have  any  of  it,  and  retained  the  whole  himself.  The  rejected  flour 
Mr.  Athorp  moved  out,  some  200  sacks  or  more,  and  gave  some  of  it  to 
Pease  &  Taylor  to  take  charge  of. 

Q.  Was  that  flour  here  when  you  took  possession  of  the  warehouse  for 
the  Government,  on  the  1st  of  July  ? 

A.  It  was,  sir. 

Q.  Why  is  it  stored  here  ? 

A.  This  store-house  was  used  as  a  store-house  for  Mr.  French,  and  I 
only  occupied  this  part  as  an  office.  I  stored  no  goods  here  belonging 
to  the  Department.  These  goods  that  are  now  in  the  warehouse,  with 
the  exception  of  the  bacon  that  I  have  received  under  this  contract  of  Mr. 
Slavens,  are  goods  that  were  remaining  in  the  warehouse  when  I  took 
possession  of  the  warehouse,  under  the  contract  of  July  1st.  I  have 
notified  all  the  parties  who  hold  goods  here  that  I  have  been  able  to 
notify,  and  as  soon  as  possible  all  the  goods  will  be  out  of  the  warehouse. 
Mr.  Athorp  is  somewhere  between  here  and  lied  Cloud  agency,  and  I 
will  notify  him  when  he  returns. 

Q.  Are  there  any  goods  now  in  this  warehouse  intended  for  the  In 
dian  Department  f 

A.  There  is. 

Q.  What  is  it  ! 

A.  Bacon. 

Q.  Nothing  else  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  not  been  inspected  ? 

A.  That  has  not  been  inspected,  but  I  will  have  it  inspected.  There 
is  a  new  inspector  appointed.  As  soon  as  I  got  word  of  who  was  ap 
pointed,  I  notified  him  at  once  of  goods  that  I  was  liable  to  receive  at 
any  time,  and  I  would  like  to  have  him  come  down  and  see  me,  and 


150 

have  an  interview  with  me,  to  know  how  he  wished  to  conduct  the  in 
spection  to  the  best  advantage.  His  name  is  Captain  Eichard  I.  Esk- 
ridge,  U.  S.  Army.  I  have  a  letter  of  instructions  to  advise  him  of 
anything  I  have  to  inspect.  That  is  the  reason  the  goods  are  lying 
here — because  they  have  not  been  inspected. 

Q.  What  goods  do  you  really  intend  to  receive  here  in  this  warehouse  ? 

A.  All  goods  belonging  to  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies. 

Q.  Then  you  would  abandon  the  Camp  Carling  warehouse  I 

A.  Not  necessarily,  sir  ;  I  proposed  to  put  bacon  here  in  this  building, 
this  being  a  stone  building,  and  as  we  have  a  cellar  under  the  whole 
platform  that  is  very  good ;  and  after  the  goods  are  inspected,  I  put 
them  down  in  the  cellar  and  keep  them  until  they  are  wanted.  I  re 
ceived  a  letter  from  Mr.  Howard,  agent  at  Spotted  Tail,  stating  that 
I  might  hold  any  bacon  I  had  for  his  agency  at  present,  and  I  hold  it 
until  be  wants  it,  because  it  is  better  to  keep  it  here  in  the  cellar  than 
forward  it. 

Q.  Is  this  a  better  store-house  than  the  one  at  Camp  Carling? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir;  very  much  better. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Could  not  arrangements  be  made  for  storage  at  Camp  Carling  ? 

A.  Not  without  digging  a  cellar. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  what  would  be  the  cost  of  making  a  cellar  ? 

A.  I  could  not,  sir.  If  I  was  going  to  give  a  judgment  in  the  matter 
I  should  say  that  perhaps  to  dig  a  cellar  under  the  warehouse  might 
cost  a  thousand  dollars  or  more ;  all  the  stone  would  have  to  be  hauled 
from  the  lower  Black  Hills  to  stone  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  there  any  brick  made  here  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  value  of  brick  here  ? 

A.  I  understand  ten  dollars  a  thousand. 

Q.  Are  the  brick  good  ? 

A.  Very  good— although  I  am  not  a  judge;  they  say  they  are  fair 
bricks. 

Q.  Now  I  see  by  comparison  of  the  way-bills  that  there  are  at  present 
detained  here  in  the  railroad-cars  211,470  pounds  of  freight  consigned  to 
Agent  Saville  at  Eed  Cloud,  on  which  the  freight  charges  are  $1,012.84  ; 
that  there  are  164,980  pounds  of  freight  consigned  to  Agent  Howard  at 
Spotted  Tail,  on  which  the  charges  are  $1,283.03.  Have  you  no  power 
to  pay  that  freight  and  receive  those  goods,  without  waiting  for  Mr. 
McCann  to  pay  the  freight  ? 

A.  I  have  not,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  McCanu  has  delivered  to  you  all  the 
goods  which  he  is  bound  to  deliver  during  the  month  of  July  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  Has  Agent  Saville  called  on  you  for  any  of  the  goods  for  his  agency 
which  are  now  detained  in  the  cars,  or  for  goods  which  you  have  been 
unable  to  furnish  him  which  are  now  in  those  cars! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  can  you  state  what  kind  of  goods  he  called  for  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  flour. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  There  is  none  there. 

WITNESS.  You  are  mistaken,  sir. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  am  glad  to  know  it. 


151 

WITNESS.  There  is  a  car-load,  as  I  am  informed  by  tbe  freight-agent, 
(car  No.  4042)  containing  201  sacks  of  flour,  weighing  20,000  pounds, 
charges  $100.  That  is  on  the  Union  Pacitic  Railroad. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  The  way-bills  I  have  here  are  of  the  Kansas  Pacific 
Railroad. 

WITNESS.  Then  that  explains  it. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  car  been  here  ? 

A.  That  has  been  here  about  two  weeks. 

Q.  And  Agent  Saville  is  waiting  for  flour  ? 

A.  He  so  informed  me.  Agent  Saville  notified  me  that  there  is  flour 
wanted  at  the  agency,  and  upon  that  I  immediately  notified  D.  J. 
McCann,  and  also  K.  W.  Wells,  contractor  for  flour  at  Schuyler,  to  fur 
nish  one  thousand  sacks  of  flour  immediately.  This  flour  (the  car-load 
that  is  here)  is  for  the  Gheyeunes  and  Arapahoes.  at  Red  Cloud  agency, 
and  should  have  been  delivered  before  the  first  of  July.  The  notice  I 
gave  Wells  to  furnish  flour  is  on  his  new  contract. 

Q.  What  goods  have  you  now  stored  at  the  Camp  Carliug  warehouse? 

A.  Not  a  pound,  sir.  I  have  not  a  pound  of  goods  in  my  possession 
belonging  to  the  Indian  Department,  except  a  barrel  of  lard-oil.  I  mean 
I  have  no  goods  intended  for  the  use  of  the  Indians. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Thursday,  July  29,  1875. 

Present,  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.B.  W.  HARRIS, 
and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  L.  COAKLEY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Coakley  ? 

Answer.  I  am  dealing  in  fruits  and  vegetables. 

Q.  Do  you  reside  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  State  if  you  were  at  any  time  employed  to  inspect  some  flour  for 
the  Indian  Department. 

A.  I  was.     I  cannot  give  you  the  exact  date. 

Q.  About  what  time  ? 

A.  About  October,  1874. 

Q.  Who  employed  you  J? 

A.  Captain  A.  K.  Long,  commissary  of  subsistence,  United  States 
Army,  stationed  here  at  Cheyenne. 

Q.  The  flour  you  inspected  was  from  where  ? 

A.  I  inspected  flour  upon  J.  H.  Martin's  contract,  during  that  fall- 
some  delivered  directly  by  himself  and  another  portion  of  it,  1  believe, 
by  an  Omaha  man— and  that  portion  had  previously  been  inspected  by 
Barclay  White. 

Q.  Hurford? 

A.  His  name  was  not  given. 

Q.  How  did  you  inspect  that  flour!  What  samples  had  yon  to  in 
spect  by  J? 

A.  The  samples  furnished  by  the  Indian  Department. 

Q.  Did  the  flour  come  up  in  quality  to  the  samples  you  had  f 

A.  It  averaged  equal  to  the  samples. 

Q.  Do  you  refer  now  to  the  lot  furnished  by  Martin,  or  to  that  which 
came  from  Omaha  * 


152 

A.  That  which  I  received  of  both  lots. 

Q.  You  rejected  some  of  it,  then  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  rejected  quite  a  considerable  portion  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what  proportion  of  the  lot  furnished  by  Martin 
you  rejected  ? 

A.  I  do  not.  One  or  two  car-loads,  I  think,  I  rejected  altogether.  (I 
am  speaking  from  memory  now.)  He  complained  that  I  was  doing  him 
injustice  by  rejecting  the  amount  I  did  reject,  and  i  believe  the  Indian 
Department  sent  out  a  regular  inspector  to  investigate  the  matter. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  he  was? 

A.  I  would  recognize  the  name  but  I  have  forgotten  it  now.  He  saiv 
me  inspect  a  car  and  was  satisfied  that  the  inspection  was  as  it  should 
be. 

Q.  Was  the  flour  that  was  shipped  by  Martin  to  you  put  up  in  the 
same  manner  as  that  which  was  shipped  from  Omaha  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  double  sacks  ? 

A.  Double  sacks. 

Q.  Branded  and  stenciled  ? 

A.  Branded  and  stenciled  ;  the  only  difference  being  that  the  Omaha 
flour  had  Barclay  White's  brand  on  it.  The  other  had  not  been  pre 
viously  inspected. 

Q.  What  became  of  the  sample  which  was  furnished  you  to  inspect 
this  flour  by  ? 

A.  I  carried  it  around  some  little  time  in  my  pocket  until  it  got  dirty, 
and  then  I  threw  it  away. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  who  you  received  that  sample  from  ? 

A.  From  the  store-keeper  here,  Mr.  S.  H.  Palmer. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Mr.  Palmer  is  now  ? 

A.  I  do  not ;  I  think  he  is  somewhere  in  Michigan. 

Q.  Did  you  preserve  samples  of  the  flour  you  inspected  ? 

A.  I  did  preserve  a  few ;  I  think  I  might  be  able  to  get  them  now  ;  I 
had  no  object  in  preserving  them  further  than  for  my  own  satisfaction  ; 
I  was  not  called  upon  to  do  so. 

Q.  After  inspecting  the  flour  what  did  you  do  with  it? 

A.  I  turned  it  over,  a  portion  of  it,  to  the  Government  store-keeper, 
taking  his  receipt  for  it. 

Q.  That  was  the  portion  you  had  passed? 

A.  A  portion  of  what  I  passed  1  turned  over  to  him,  and  the  re 
mainder  to  Mr.  McCann,  the  contractor,  direct,  taking  his  receipt  for  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  the  rejected  flour  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Where  was  this  flour  when  you  inspected  it  ? 

A.  In  the  cars,  generally.  I  would  have  the  bags  piled  up  in  a  double 
row  around  and  go  through  the  center  and  inspect  it  all,  so  that  I  could 
see  every  sack. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  that  rejected  flour  afterward  anywhere? 
A.  I  did  see  some  of  it  in  the  Indian  store-house;  and  I  think  a  short 
time  ago  I  saw  some  in  a  feed  and  produce  store  here  in  town. 

Q.  Have  you  inspected  other  flour  since  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  inspected  until  recently  all  the  flour  that  has 
been  received  here. 

Q.  Did  you  inspect  that  upon  samples  furnished  by  the  store-keeper? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not.  I  was  instructed,  as  to  the  flour  received  since, 
to  receive  a  merchantable  XX  grade  of  flour. 

Q.  Has  all  the  flour  you  have  inspected  since  and  passed  been  equal 
to  that  grade  ? 


153 

A.  In  my  judgment  it  has  been  XX  flour. 

Q.  Since  the  lots  you  speak  of  as  furnished  by  Martin,  and  coming 
from  Omaha,  and  of  which  you  rejected  a  considerable  portion,  have 
you  rejected  any  from  other  lots — any  considerable  portion  of  flour? 

A.  No  very  considerable  portion—  very  little ;  only  a  small  portion. 
I  might  occasionally  find  an  inferior  sack  in  a  car,  but  as  it  amounted  to 
little,  I  let  it  pass. 

Q.  You  were  not  in  the  Government  employ  otherwise  than  when  you 
were  employed  to  inspect  flour? 

A.  I  have  been  clerking  for  the  depot  quartermaster,  Captain  Long. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  quit  that  employment  ? 

A.  I  am  still  there,  in  a  measure. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  experience  have  you  had  as  a  commissary  or  inspector  of 
flour  ? 

A.  I  have  had  quite  an  extensive  experience ;  I  have  handled  flour 
more  or  less  for  the  last  six  years,  inspecting  and  receiving  for  the  Sub 
sistence  Department  of  the  Army. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  as  to  the  general  character  of  the  flour  re 
ceived,  and  inspected,  and  passed  by  you  since  the  time  you  inspected 
the  flour  on  the  Martin  contract? 

A.  I  should  say  it  was  a  fair,  merchantable  XX  flour. 

Q.  How,  as  a  whole,  was  the  flour  furnished  by  Martin  ? 

A.  Equal;  it  averaged  equal. 

Q.   Was  it  better  ? 

A.  That  was  supposed  to  be  XX  flour  also. 

Q.  In  your  judgment — I  am  now  appealing  to  your  judgment — is  the 
flour  which  has  been  furnished  since  Martin's  contract  better  as  a  whole 
than  his  was  ? 

A,  It  might  be  a  shade  better.  The  flour  inspected  since  is  on  V.  S. 
Potter's  contract. 

Q.  When  you  say  the  flour  averaged  equal  to  the  sample,  what  are  we 
to  understand  by  the  word  averaged  ? 

A.  Some  went  a  little  better,  and  some  not  quite  as  good.  For 
instance,  there  would  be  a  car  of  200  sacks,  out  of  which  there  might  be 
from  one  to  six  or  seven  of  rather  inferior  grade,  but  not  enough  to  make 
it  any  particular  importance,  and  if  the  others  averaged  better  I  would 
let  them  all  go. 

Q.  Well,  in  that  way  might  you  not  get  some  very  good  flour  and 
some  very  bad  ? 

A.  No,  I  took  particular  care  not  to  get  any  very  bad ';  any  that  was 
very  bad  I  would  reject  ? 

Q.  By  whom  were  you  appointed  to  this  duty  ? 

A.  liecently,  by  the  Indian  Commissioner;  previously,  in  the  first 
instance,  by  Captain  Long. 

Q.  When  you  say  you  were  instructed  to  receive  only  XX  merchant 
able  flour,  from  whom  did  you  receive  that  instruction  ? 

A.  As  far  as  my  recollection  goes,  directly  from  the  Indian  Commis 
sioner. 

Q.  Have  you  any  letter  or  telegram  of  instruction  from  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  not  with  me. 

Q.  Can  you  hand  it  in  to  the  commissioners? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  with  pleasure. 


154 

Q.  In  this  latter  inspection,  you  have  determined  from  your  own  ex 
perience  what  XX  flour  is,  rather  than  from  any  sample  furnished  you  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  remember  the  flour  furnished  by  Martin  himself  on  his  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  which  you  understood  he  furnished  by  an  Omaha  man? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  of  those  two  quantities  of  flour  was  the  better,  as  a  whole  ? 

A.  That  furnished  by  Martin  direct. 

Q.  And  which  was  put  up  in  the  better  form  ? 

A.  The  forms  were  similar,  as  near  as  possible;  both  double  sacked, 
and  both  put  up  well. 

Q.  What  is  the  usual  weight  of  a  sack  of  flour  ? 

A.  Ninety-eight  pounds.  That  from  Omaha,  I  believe,  went  about 
ninety,  short  weight  considerably,  I  know ;  between  eighty-eight  and 
ninety. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  all  the  flour  you  inspected? 

A.  I  averaged  the  contents  of  the  car  by  weighing  from  ten  to  twenty 
sacks,  as  per  instructions  from  the  Commissioner. 

Q.  Could  you  have  told  how  many  sacks  weighed  88  pounds?  Did  you 
know  ? 

A.  I  have  it  down  on  the  book  from  the  estimate, 

Q.  But  you  did  not  weigh  each  sack  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  the  whole  quantity  ? 

A.  No,  sir-  I  averaged  it  all. 

Q.  What  would  you  call  the  average— do  you  now  remember  what 
you  called  the  average  of  the  flour  there  that  came  from  Omaha? 

A.  I  think  it  was  88  pounds,  now  that  you  mention  the  figures. 

Q.  By  weighing  ten  sacks  in  a  hundred,  taken  promiscuously,  you  then 
counted  the  whole  car-load  at  the  average  weight  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  usual  mode  of  determining  the  weight  ? 

A.  That  was  my  instruction  from  the  Commissioner. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  the  habit  of  inspecting  flour  in  the  Army? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  your  practice  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  weighed  all  my  flour  there. 

Q.  Now,  from  whom  did  you  receive  this  instruction;  from  Captain 
Long  or  the  Commissioner? 

A.  I  may  be  confused  in  regard  to  it.  I  was  in  Captain  Long's  office 
when  the  instructions  were  being  received  by  him  and  myself,  and  I 
saw  them  all. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  specific  instructions  from  anybody  to  weigh  a  part 
from  which  to  make  the  average  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  cannot  now  say  whether  you  saw  a  specific  instruction  from 
the  Department  to  that  effect? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  whether  they  were  addressed  to  me  or  to  Captain 
Long,  I  do  not  now  remember.  It  was  embodied  in  a  telegram. 

Q.  Have  you  still  those  instructions  in  your  custody  7 

A.  I  think  they  are  in  Captain  Long's  custody  5  I  can  get  them, 
though. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  look  them  up. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


155 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Friday,  July  30,  1875. 

Present :  HOD.  THOMAS  H.  FLETCHER,  chairman  $  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  ISAAC    W.  FEtENCH. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  French  ? 

Answer.  At  Cheyenne. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  here? 

A.  I  have  lived  here  since  July,  1867. 

Q.  Where  did  you  reside  before  that,  Mr.  French  ? 

A.  I  lived  in  La  Porte,  Colorado  5  previous  to  that  I  lived  in  New 
York  City. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  general  business  ? 

A.  I  have  been  a  merchant  for  twenty-five  years. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  deal  in  flour  ? 

A.  To  some  extent. 

Q.  Had  some  knowledge  of  the  different  qualities  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  to  state,  Mr.  French,  if  you  inspected  some  flour  at 
Cheyenne,  consigned  to  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  I  examined  in  all  ten  car-loads  of  flour. 

Q.  At  whose  request  did  you  do  that? 

A.  At  the  request  of  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  the  agent  of  Bed  Cloud 
agency. 

Q.  Where  did  you  obtain  the  sample  upon  which  you  inspected  it? 

A.  I  obtained  it  from  the  local  store- keeper,  at  the  office  in  Cheyenne ; 
Mr.  Palmer  was  then  the  store-keeper. 

Q.  United  States  store-keeper  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  given  that  sample  as  the  sample  upon  which  the  bid  had 
been  made  for  furnishing  the  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  showed  it  to  me  with  its  wrappings,  which  were  under 
seal,  coming  from  the  Department  of  Indian  Affairs  at  Washington, 
through  the  mails,  as  I  understand  it.  I  know  it  was  under  seal. 

Q.  State  how  much  flour  you  inspected. 

A.  I  inspected  ten  car-loads,  consisting  of  2,026  sacks. 

Q.  And  by  whose  direction  was  it  that  you  preserved  a  sample  of  each 
car-load  ? 

A.  Ic  was  at  the  request  of  Dr.  Saville.  I  will  state  the  whole  circum 
stances.  Dr.  Saville  came  down  from  the  Bed  Cloud  agency,  and  I 
learned  from  him  as  a  matter  of  general  interest  that  he  was  short  of 
flour  there,  and  he  seemed  to  be  in  some  concern  about  it.  He  said  there 
was  flour  on  the  track  and  there  was  nobody  to  inspect  it,  and  he  could 
not  receive  it  until  it  was  inspected ;  that  he  had  made  application  to 
the  Commissioner  for  an  inspector,  and  that  he  had  got  instructions  to 
send  on  flour,  but  to  retain  samples  of  it  until  an  inspector  should  be 
appointed.  The  doctor  said  to  me  that  it  would  be  a  favor  to  him  if  I 
would  go  into  the  cars  and  inspect  the  flour  before  it  was  shipped,  so 
that  he  might  not  be  compromised  in  any  way  by  receiving  a  poor  flour 
at  the  agency.  He  said  that  he  didn't  like  to  inspect  it  himself  here,  and 
did  not  want  to  have  any  of  the  employes  about  the  office  inspect  it,  and 
as  I  had  some  leisure  here,  he  would  be  obliged  if  I  would  inspect  it  as  a 
favor  to  him,  and  see  that  none  came  up  to  the  agency  that  was  inferior 


156 

to  the  sample  that  he  had  here  to  guide  me.  I  told  him  I  would  do  so. 
I  inspected  the  two  car-loads  which  were  here  ready  to  be  shipped.  I 
found  the  flour  to  be  quite  equal  to  the  sample.  My  recollection  now  is 
that  that  particular  lot  I  thought  was  quite  superior  to  the  sample. 

Q.  About  how  many  sacks  are  there  in  a  car,  generally  ? 

A.  About  200  sacks. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  the  flour  ? 

A.  I  did  not  weigh  it  5  I  merely  inspected  the  quality  of  it. 

Q.  Was  that  flour  put  up  in  double  sacks  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  recollect  rather  distinctly  that  it  was  in  double  sacks; 
in  fact,  I  made  my  hand  quite  sore  shoving  the  prier  through  the  two 
sacks. 

Q.  Was  it  all  branded  or  stenciled  ? 

A.  That  lot  of  flour  was  not  branded  "  Indian  Department  Flour." 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  whether  it  had  any  brands  on  it  at  all  or  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  whether  it  was  all  branded  I  could  not  tell  posi 
tively.  I  recollect  there  was  a  brand  of  the  mill  from  which  it  came— 
the  name  of  the  flour. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  that  flour  came  from  ? 

A.  As  I  understood,  the  first  lot  of  flour  came  from  Denver. 

Q.  Well,  in  all,  you  think  you  inspected  about  ten  car-loads  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  That  would  be  how  much? 

A.  Two  thousand  and  twenty-six  sacks  was  the  number  I  inspected. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

A.  Did  you  reject  any  of  the  flour? 

A.  I  rejected  27  sacks  out  of  it  in  all.  I  cannot  say  I  rejected  it, 
but  I  advised  the  store-keeper  not  to  send  it  up  to  the  Doctor.  I 
thought  it  was  inferior  to  the  grade,  and  I  could  not  consistently  pass 
it,  although  it  was  not  very  poor  flour;  it  was  merely  dark.  As  I  re 
garded  it,  it  was  a  very  good  grade  of  Graham  flour ;  it  was  made  out 
of  fresh  wheat,  but  it  was  darker  than  the  sample  I  had  to  guide  me. 

Q.  Well,  was  that  which  you  passed  and  which  was  sent  up  to  the 
agency  equal  in  quality  to  the  sample  ? 

A.  I  considered  it  so,  and  in  some  respects  superior  to  the  sample. 

Q.  Then  this  flour  would  average  all  around  about  equal  in  mercantile 
value  ? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir ;  I  regarded  it  a  very  good  grade  of  XX  flour. 

Q.  And  these  are  the  samples  that  you  retained  ?  [Pointing  to  sam 
ples  produced.] 

A.  These  are  the  samples  that  I  obtained  from  the  cars.  I  pressed 
samples  of  the  flour  between  sheets  of  white  paper,  compared  them  to 
gether,  tasted  of  it,  smelled  of  it  to  see  that  it  was  free  from  must,  felt 
of  it  to  see  that  there  was  no  grit  in  it,  and  saw  that  it  was  made  of 
good,  sound,  fresh  wheat,  and  altogether  I  thought  it  was  as  good  flour 
as  the  Indian  wanted,  and  as  good  flour  as  I  would  want  to  eat,  and 
thought  it  fully  equal  to  the  sample. 

Q.  And  what  about  the  sacks  that  you  rejected  ? 

A.  Those  that  I  rejected,  I  didn't  keep  a  sample  of  that  flour,  because 
I  didn't  intend  that  it  should  go  to  the  agency  ;  consequently  there  was 
no  need  of  keeping  a  sample  ;  the  whole  of  it  was  here  as  a  sample. 

Q.  What  was  the  appearance  of  that  flour  ? 

A.  That  of  itself  was  very  fair  flour,  but  it  was  darker;  it  was  merely 


157 

a  darker  grade  ;  it  was  considerably  darker  than  any  of  this  here  ;  bat 
of  itself  I  should  not  have  condemned  it. 

Q.  Even  it,  you  think,  would  have  made  good,  healthy  bread  f 

A.  O,  yes ;  I  should  have  been  very  glad  to  have  got  it  if  I  had  been 
out  of  flour  and  could  not  get  any  conveniently.  I  recognize  the  sam 
ples  here  produced  as  samples  which  I  myself  preserved  from  the  flour 
inspected  by  me.  The  boxes  are  marked  in  my  handwriting.  [The  sam 
ples  were  marked  C,  D,  E,  F,  G,  H,  I,  and  K.]  The  instrument  I  used 
in  inspecting  was  of  the  same  class  as  a  butter-trier,  but  not  quite  as 
long;  it  was  long  enough  for  all  practical  purposes.  I  was  at  Eed 
Cloud  agency  in  November,  on  the  same  day  that  Professor  Marsh  was 
there,  when  the  provisions  were  being  issued  to  the  Indians.  I  heard 
that  these  27  sacks  of  flour  which  had  been  rejected  by  me  had  gone  to 
the  agency  through  a  mistake;  and  being  desirous  of  learning  if  the 
Indians  or  anybody  else  had  noticed  it,  I  talked  with  Eed  Cloud  and 
lied  Dog  on  the  subject,  through  their  friend  and  interpreter,  Nicholas 
Janis.  1  asked  them  if  they  had  discovered  any  poor  flour  in  the  first 
lot  of  flour  that  came  up  since  August — "  this  year's  flour;"  I  used  that 
term  ;  and  they  said  no,  the  flour  this  year  was  better  than  it  was  last 
year,  but  they  did  not  like  the  pork,  and  they  preferred  bacon. 

Q.  Did  they  say  anything  about  the  pork  being  bad  ? 

A.  They  didn't  mention  it  as  being  bad,  but  they  said  the  pork  was 
not  what  they  wanted  ;  they  would  rather  have  bacon  ;  they  did  not  like 
pork. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  that  pork  <? 

A.  I  did,  sir ;  I  saw  it  while  it  was  being  issued,  arid  saw  some  of  it 
after  it  was  issued.  1  thought  myself  that  the  Indians  were  right  about 
it  in  one  sense  of  the  word — not  because  the  pork  was  poor,  but  they 
didn't  seem  to  make  that  use  of  the  pork  that  white  people  would  ;  they 
cut  off  some  portions,  and  threw  away  just  as  good  portions  of  it  as  those 
which  they  cut  off. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  that  pork  1? 

A.  Well,  I  looked  it  over  generally. 

Q.  Did  it  seem  to  be  sweet  pork  ? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir;  it  was  not  rusty  at  all ;  it  seemed  to  be  sound,  white, 
nice  pork,  as  salt  pork  generally  is.  I  saw  one  barrel  of  it  rolled  out, 
and  the  Indians  opened  it  themselves.  They  knocked  ofl'the  hoops  and 
it  fell  apart.  The  brine  and  salt  all  passed  off  from  it,  and,  as  it  looked 
to  me,  the  family  of  Indians  that  was  around  there,  (there  are  sometimes 
a  couple  of  hundred  in  one  family,)  when  the  hoops  were  knocked  off 
and  the  brine  was  spilled  out  on  the  ground,  the  bucks  of  the  family 
went  in  and  then  divided  up  the  whole  barrel,  and  gave  it  out  to  each 
one  of  the  families  that  stood  around  in  a  circle  to  receive  their  por 
tions  of  it.  I  stood  by  and  saw  that,  and  Professor  Marsh  was  near 
me  and  saw  it  too. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  other  pork  issued  ? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir;  I  saw  quantities  of  it  issued;  but  that  was  the  only 
barrel  that  was  issued  in  that  way.  The  balance  was  issued  through 
the  orifice  of  the  partition. 

Q.  This  seemed  to  be  a  family  large  enough  to  have  a  whole  barrel? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  understood  it  so  at  that  time.  I  understood  that  it 
was  given  them  to  divide  among  themselves  in  their  own  way. 

Q.  Were  you  there  at  the  issue  of  the  annuity  -.goods  f 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  was  on  that  occasion. 

Q.  You  saw  the  issue  of  the  annuity-goods  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  saw  all  that. 


158 

Q.  Did  you  notice  any  blankets  that  were  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  I  saw  them  all. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  them  ? 

A.  Well,  yes,  to  some  extent ;  not  as  an  expert ;  I  merely  looked  at 
them  there. 

Q.  Iti  reference  to  the  marks  that  were  on  the  blankets — "  U.  S.  I. 
D.P 

A.  I  saw  that. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  them  closely,  to  see  whether  the  mark  had  rotted 
or  injured  the  blanket? 

A.  I  examined  the  blankets  generally,  and  saw  no  decay  of  the  mate 
rial  in  the  vicinity  of  the  mark.  The  marks  were  black,  and  they  were 
"  U.  S.  I.  D.,"  and  about  the  center  of  the  blanket.  It  seemed  to  be 
marked  about  the  same  as  an  ordinary  Government  soldier  blanket, 
although  the  "  U.  S."  was  of  a  smaller  size  than  the  "  U.  S."  on  a  sol 
dier  blanket. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  notice  the  kind  of  coffee  that  they  issued  there  ? 

A.  I  saw  the  coffee. 

Q.  What  kind  of  coffee  was  it  ? 

A.  Rio  coffee  ;  I  think  it  was  average  Rio  coffVe. 

Q.  About  the  same  as  is  ordinarily  used  by  the  people  of  this  coun 
try  ? 

A.  Well,  yes,  sir  j  I  so  considered  it ;  the  average  grade  of  Rio  coffee. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Had  you  any  opportunity  of  drinking  any  of  the  coffee  ! 

A.  Not  in  any  of  their  tepees,  but  J  drank  coffee  at  the  agency  all  the 
time. 

Q.  I  mean  of  the  coffee  we  are  now  speaking  of. 

A.  I  am  unable  to  say  where  the  coffee  came  from.  Mr.  Saville  tells 
me  that  it  was  some  of  that  coffee. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  that  brand  with  any  degree  of  attention  ?  Was 
your  attention  drawn  to  the  fact  that  the  chemical  substance  with 
which  that  brand  was  impressed  in  the  blanket  might  rot  it? 

A.  My  special  attention  was  called  to  the  brand,  not  particularly  for 
that  purpose,  but  for  another.  Mr.  Antonie  Janis,  brother  of  Nicholas, 
(he  is  one  of  the  old  frontiersman  here  that  I  have  known  ever  since  I 
came  to  the  country,)  was  standing  alongside  me,  and  he  drew  my  at 
tention  to  the  U.  S.  I.  D.  When  the  Indians  would  take  their  blank 
ets  they  put  them  on  their  backs ;  it  was  snowing,  and  of  course 
a  hundred  or  so  would  pass  away  from,  us  with  this  U.  S.  I.  D.  on  the 
back  of  each  one,  and  to  their  view  it  presented  a  kind  of  odd  effect, 
and  each  was  turning  and  chaffing  the  other  for  having  a  brand  on  his 
blanket,  when  he  himself  had  one  on  him,  and  Antoine  said  to  me  that 
they  did  not  like  that  U.  S.  I.  D.,  because  they  thought  it  was  a  kind  of 
a  stain  upon  them,  a  sort  of  stigma,  that  one  had  to  smile  at  the  other  on. 
I  told  him  that  he  could  explain  that  to  .them  very  easily,  that  it  did  not 
amount  to  anything.  He  said  he  understood  it,  of  course  5  he  had  lived 
with  the  Indians  thirty  years  and  knew  their  peculiarities,  and  it  didn't 
amount  to  anything  so  far  as  he  was  concerned,  but  they  looked  upon 
it  as  a  damage  to  the  blanket. 

Q.  The  point  of  my  inquiry  was  this:  whether  you  had  examined  it, 
felt  it,  and  pulled  it  so  as  to  examine  to  see  whether  the  effect  of  that 
branding  had  been  to  weaken  the  thread  ? 

A.  I  did  not  examine  it. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  It  was  a  new  experiment,  a  new  chemical  put  on 


159 

by  a  firm  in  Philadelphia,  and  it  is  our  duty  to  see  whether  its  effect  has 
been  injurious  to  the  blanket,  so  as  to  put  a  stop  to  anything  of  the 
kind  in  the  future. 

WITNESS.  I  remember  I  told  Antouie  at  the  time  that  it  would  not 
last  very  long;  that  it  was  a  mark  just  on  the  outside,  so  that  it  didn't 
penetrate  into  the  threads.  That  was  my  observation  to  him  at  that 
time;  that  they  need  not  care  much  about  it,  because  it  would  soon 
wear  off,  because  it  was  not  woven  into  the  blanket  at  all;  it  was  merely 
an  outside  stamp. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  what  notice  did  you  take  of  the  pork;  how  much  attention 
did  you  give  to  it  ? 

A.  I  gave  it  considerable  attention,  from  the  fact  that  I  thought  it 
was  a  great  loss. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  Indians  cutting  off  the  pork  and  throwing  away 
part  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Immediately  upon  receiving  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  and  saw  the  pieces  that  they  had  thrown  away,  and  drew 
their  attention  to  it,  and  told  them  it  was  good,  in  my  way ;  I  wished 
them  to  understand  from  me  that  I  considered  it  just  as  good  as  that 
they  threw  away ;  but  they  said  "O,  no,"  and  didn't  regard  my  view 
of  the  matter  as  of  any  value  to  them  whatever. 

Q.  Did  they  complain  of  it  in  any  form  ? 

A.  No  more  than  just  that.  The  only  observations  that  I  heard  at 
all  from  the  Indians  about  the  pork  was  what  I  have  stated,  that  Red 
Cloud  and  Bed  Dog  said  they  preferred  bacon  to  pork. 

Q.  Well,  could  you  judge  whether  this  was  old  pork,  whether  it  had 
apparently  been  packed  a  good  while? 

A.  I  should  not  have  so  considered  it  from  what  I  saw  of  it;  it  looked 
white  and  fresh,  the  rind  of  it  didn't  look  like  as  if  it  had  been  long  in 
the  brine ;  it  didn't  look  rusty  or  anything  of  that  sort ;  there  was  no 
rust  on  it  whatever,  and  the  lean  of  the  pork  looked  lively  and  fresh,  as 
1  saw  it  lying  on  the  ground  after  they  had  cut  it  off. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  parts  or  pieces  of  the  hog  was  this  pork  ? 

A.  It  didn't  seem  to  have  any  of  the  head  or  jaws  or  hocks  about  it; 
it  was  that  portion  of  the  hog  that  had  the  least  bone,  apparently ;  the 
sides,  shoulders — I  don't  know  that  I  observed  the  shoulders  espe 
cially — the  sides. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  was  it  as  to  being  lean  or  fat? 

A.  I  thought  it  was  a  fair  average  in  that  respect;  more  fat  than 
otherwise. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  seemed  to  be  their  objection  to  the  pork,  Mr.  French  ?  They 
cut  off  parts  of  it  and  left  parts ;  that  would  leave  some  impression 
upon  your  mind  of  their  particular  objection. 

A.  That  was  the  very  question  I  tried  to  learn  from  them ;  I  was 
anxious  to  learn  what  was  their  objection  to  that  portion  of  the  pork 
they  threw  away. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  Could  you  tell  what  part  they  did  throw  away  ? 
A.  They  seemed  to  throw  away  equal  parts. 


160 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Not  onlj7  equally  good,  but  of  the  same  character '? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  French,  what  did  you  understand  them  to  mean  when  they 
distinguished  between  pork  and  bacon,  according  to  their  idea "! 

A.  The  bacon  was  smoked  sides,  dry,  and  seemed  to  be  cured  better. 

Q.  And  the  other  was  pickled,  was  it? 

A.  The  other  was  in  brine,  in  barrels.  They  had  formerly  been  feed 
ing  on  bacon,  and  they  were  taking  pork  that  year  for  the  first  year,  as 
I  understood  it.  They  were  perfectly  familiar  with  bacon,  and  preferred 
it  to  the  ration  of  pork  they  were  getting  that  year. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  the  contractor  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  met  him  here  about  a  month  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  know  him  at  that  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  of  this  pork,  as  far  as  you  examined  it,  none  of  it  was 
old,  or  strong,  or  rusty  1? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  should  regard  it  as  a  very  good  quality  of  pork  ;  I  have 
sold  pork  retail  for  several  years  at  a  country  store,  aiid  seen  considera 
ble  of  it,  and  I  should  regard  it  as  a  good  quality  of  pork. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  character  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  examined  the  blankets  in  a  general  way. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  that  sort  of  goods  f 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  bought  and  sold  blankets  a  good  many  years,  as 
a  merchant. 

Q.  What  was  the  quality  of  those  you  did  examine  ? 

A.  I  should  not  regard  them  as  the  best  quality  by  any  means;  they 
were  an  average  blanket. 

Q.  In  the  distribution  of  them  did  you  hear  any  complaint  made  f 

A.  Not  specially  ;  no,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  mode  adopted  of  distributing  the  annuity-goods  '? 

A.  Well,  it  seemed  to  me  that,  as  I  understood  it  there  at  the  time,  the 
Indians  were  divided  up  into  families,  and  each  head  of  a  family  had  a 
ticket  from  the  office  representing  so  many  persons;  the  annuity-goods 
were  opened,  the  boxes  were  all  opened  in  the  warehouse,  and  Dr.  Saville 
stood  there  with,  his  book  and  his  clerks,  and  he  would  call  oft'  so  many 
hatchets,  naming  the  chief,  (Red  Cloud,  for  instance,)  so  many  blankets, 
so  many  bolts  of  tent-cloth,  so  many  pieces  of  calico,  so  many  pairs  of 
boots,  until  the  list  was  gone  through  with,  according  to  the  number  of 
his  people,  and  these  goods  were  taken  by  the  attendants  out  of  the 
warehouse  into  the  yard  in  front  of  the  warehouse  and  put  down,  and 
lied  Cloud,  or  whichever  chief  they  wrere  intended  for,  would  gather  his 
family  around  them  to  take  care  of  them ;  and  when  his  list  was  closed 
then  the  next  ticket  was  presented,  or  the  next  call  came  off. 

Q.  Did.  you  see  the  book  that  he  kept  f 

A.  I  did  not  examine  it  particularly  ;  I  saw  it  in  his  hand. 

Q.  What  kind  of  weather  was  it  at  that  time! 

A.  It  was  a  stormy  day,  considerably  stormy. 

Q.  Pretty  cold  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  quite  cold. 

Q.  Was  there  any  complaint  by  the  Indians  that  they  had  not  received 
their  annuity-goods  before  ? 

A.  No  special  complaint  that  I  discovered  from  them  at  all ;  they 
seemed  to  be  very  much  gratified  to  think  that  they  had  got  them. 


161 

Q.  Did  you  bear  any  chief  or  Indian  complain  that  he  had  waited  for 
them  until  the  cold  weather,  and  ought  to  have  had  them  before  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  understood  from  several  of  what  we  call  the  squaw-men 
out  there,  that  they  had  been  waiting  a  long  time  for  them,  that  they 
had  come  two  hundred  miles,  but  the  agent  would  not  issue  the  goods 
until  the  Indians  were  counted. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  "  squaw-man  *P 

A.  We  mean  men  who  have  married  and  intermarried  with  squaws, 
and  have  got  half-breed  families. 

Q.  Were  they  making  complaint  of  the  agent? 

A.  Some  of  them,  one  or  two  of  them  complained  that  he  had  been 
stopping  there  a  long  time  away  from  his  ranch  for  his  share  of  the  an 
nuities,  and  had  not  been  able  to  get  them  until  now. 

Q.  It  was  stated  by  some  of  the  Indians  that  the  Doctor  had  not  issued 
the  goods  because  the  Indians  would  not  permit  themselves  to  be  counted  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  the  statement  of  some  of  the  Frenchmen  around 
there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  thing  about  the  number  of  Indians  at  the  agency, 
Mr.  French? 

A.  I  do  not  know  the  exact  number  that  was  there  at  one  time ;  I  was 
told  by  Mr.  Janis  that  there  were  many  more  there  on  that  occasion 
than  there  had  been  at  any  one  time  for  the  whole  year ;  a  great  many 
more  came  in  from  the  North,  he  said,  than  he  thought  would  be  there. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  issue  of  the  beef-ration  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  there,  (it  was  on  the  14th  of  November,  the  same 
time  that  Professor  Marsh  was  there,)  sitting  in  a  buggy. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  f 

A.  I  did,  sir ;  1  saw  them  in  the  corral,  and  as  they  left  the  corral, 
and  saw  some  of  them  shot. 

Q.  What  could  you  say  of  them  ? 

A.  I  can  only  say  I  was  a  good  deal  surprised  at  the  report  in  the 
New  York  papers,  and  the  report  that  Professor  Marsh  made,  of  the 
cattle  being  poor,  a  scrubby  lot  of  cattle.  They  did  look  to  me  at  that 
time,  while  in  the  corral,  a  little  ragged,  from  the  fact  that  it  was  a  stormy 
day,  there  was  a  good  deal  of  rain  and  snow  on  them,  and  the  hair  was 
wet,  and  their  frames  were  more  prominent  than  they  would  have  other 
wise  looked,  and  they  did  look  a  little  gaunt ;  but  I  didn't  consider  that 
as  anything  particular  ;  they  had  not  had  any  water  probably  for  some 
hours,  but  the  average  condition  I  thought  was 

Q.  What  as  to  weight  or  size ;  do  you  know,  anything  about  the 
weight  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  am  not  a  judge  particularly,  not  sufficient  to  average  a  herd  of 
cattle  within  fifty  or  a  hundred  pounds  in  each  head  of  cattle. 

Q.  You  say  "  to  average "  them ;  do  you  understand  that  to  be  the 
system — that  the  cattle  are  averaged  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  you  speak  of  the  whole  as  a  unit,  as  I  understand  you  ! 

Q.  Yes.  I  had  asked  you  what  their  size  was,  what  was  the  heaviest 
ox  you  saw  there  according  to  your  best  judgment  ? 

A..  Twelve  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  And  what  the  lightest  ? 

A.  I  should  not  like  to  put  my  opinion  against  anything  of  that  sort ; 
I  didn't  give  it  special  attention;  they  were  large  Texas  cattle,  had 
very  large  horns,  and  I  regarded  them  as  an  average  lot  of  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  were  fat  cattle  or  lean  ! 
A.  I  regarded  them  as  an  average  lot  of  cattle.     I  did  not  look  upon 
them  as  stall-fed  cattle  or  very  poor — a  good  average  lot  of  cattle  for 
11  IF 


162 

that  time  of  year ;  they  naturally  would  be  good  at  that  time  of  year. 
I  did  not  regard  them  at  all  as  an  especially  poor  lot  of  cattle,  that  isr 
poor  in  flesh. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  Professor  Marsh  on  that  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  considerable. 

Q.  Upon  the  subject  of  these  supplies"? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  on  that  subject.  We  were  talking  bones  at  that  time ; 
he  was  a  bone-sharp,  and  I  was  interested  particularly  with  him  in  get 
ting  bones  for  him. 

Q.  But  in  reference  to  the  distribution  of  supplies  or  annuity  goods, 
or  anything  else  upon  the  subject,  did  you  have  any  conversation  with 
him"? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  did,  any  more  than  he  wras  expressing  himself 
with  a  degree  of  surprise ;  it  was  the  first  time  he  had  ever  seen  any 
thing  so  wonderful  as  what  he  was  looking  at  at  that  time  there. 

Q.  Did  he  comment  upon  any  part  of  the  distribution  as  wrong  or 
irregular  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  to  me  at  that  time ;  he  didn't  seem  to  express  him 
self  that  he  was  discovering  any  frauds  or  anything  of  that  sort  at  all. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  frequently  been  to  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  was  never  there  only  on  this  occasion.  I  went  there  on  a  tour 
of  curiosity,  to  see  the  issue  of  annuity  goods,  and  knowing  that  there 
would  be  a  larger  number  of  Indians  congregated  there  than  on  any 
other  one  time  that  I  would  happen  to  be  there,  and  1  had  an  opportu 
nity  of  going  over  in  a  very  comfortable  conveyance  and  good  company, 
and  1  availed  myself  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  interest  in  any  beef-contract  for  supplying  Indians 
or  for  freighting  goods  to  them,  or  anything  of  that  kind  ? 

A.  None  whatever,  and  have  never  had  any,  directly  or  indirectly  ;  I 
am  not  an  Indian-ringer.  I  would  like  to  be  under  oath  in  making  that 
statement,  because  there  is  a  jury  East  of  me. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  Dr.  Irwin,  agent  of  the  Shoshone  Indians,  during  the 
inspection  of  flour  If 

A.  Dr.  Irwin  was  here  for  some  flour,  complaining  bitterly  that  he 
could  not  get  it.  He  had  his  train  up  at  some  point  on  the  railroad,  I 
think  it  was  Bryan,  under  pay.  The  Indians  were  out  of  flour  and  there 
was  plenty  of  flour  here,  and  he  could  not  get  it,  and  he  got  quite  ner 
vous  over  it;  and  there  was  no  inspector  here,  and  he  seemed  to  express 
himself  that  there  must  be  some  grand  swindling  somewhere.  He  could 
not  understand  why  he  could  not  get  his  flour — the  Government  was 
ready  to  pay  for  it — and  he  was  down  here  for  it,  and  the  Indians  were 
starving,  and  so  on. 

Q.  Did  he  call  your  attention  at  any  time  to  the  quality  .of  any 
flour? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  he  said,  "That  flour  is  good  enough  for  me,  if  you  will 
only  just  ship  it  up  for  me  ;  I  don't  want  any  other  inspection  than  what 
I  see;  my  Indians  will  take  that  from  me  if  I  can  only  get  the  flour." 
That  was  his  language  as  near  as  I  can  recollect  it;  he  spoke  with 
excitement. 

Q.  Did  he  or  not,  at  any  time,  call  your  attention  to  or  speak  of  the 
bad  quality  of  any  flour  that  he  saw  when  here  ? 

A.  Not  at  all  ;  but  he  spoke  of  it  especially  as  good  enough  for  him, 
if  he  could  get  it.  He  said  his  trains  were  under  an  expense  at  ten  dol 
lars  a  day. 


1G3 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  saw  Dr.  Saville  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  he  saw  the  doctor ;  he  saw  the  local  store-keeper,  Mr. 
Palmer,  who  had  no  authority  to  give  him  any  flour,  and  that  made  him 
very  angry.  Dr.  Irwin  said  to  me  that  he  had  information  from  Mr. 
Martin  that  Martin  had  sent  him  flour  here  to  Cheyenne  for  inspection, 
and  when  inspected  lie  could  let  him  have  it,  and  he  was  annoyed  to  think 
that  he  could  not  get  it  shipped  on  up  to  him.  I  had  no  authority  to  in 
spect  any  flour  for  him,  consequently  I  could  not  take  any  action  in  the 
matter.  What  I  was  doing  was  as  a  favor  to  Dr.  Saville. 


TESTIMONY  OF   JOHN  HERMAN  BOSLEtt. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Bosler? 
Answer.  I  reside  in  Carlisle,  Pa. 
Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  one  James  K.  Foreman  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  does  he  reside  ? 

A.  In  Cumberland  County,  Pa.    His  bid  was  dated  Omaha. 
Q.  How  long  had  you  known  him  before  that  ? 
A.  I  had  known  him  tor  some  years,  sir. 
Q.  Does  he  reside  in  Omaha  now  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  does  live  now  ? 
A.  He  lives  in  Pennsylvania. 
Q.  Do  you  know  where  in  Pennsylvania  ? 
A.  In  Cumberland  County. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  he  resided  at  Omaha  ? 
A.  I  do  not  think  that  he  ever  resided  at  Omaha. 
Q.  Do  you  know  M.  C.  Herman  or  David  B.  Herman  ? 
A.  David  B.  Herman,  yes,  sir. 
Q.  Where  does  he  live  I 

A.  He  is  in  Kansas  at  present.  , 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  in  Kansas  ? 

A.  I  don't  know,  at  this  time;  perhaps  Ellsworth,  or  Wichita, or  Great 
Bend. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  M.  C.  Herman  lives  ? 
A.  He  lives  in  Carlisle,  Pa. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  both  the  Hermans  belong  in  Carlisle  ? 

A.  D.  B.  Herman  is  a  western  man. 

Q.  Is  he  not  the  brother  of  the  other  man? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  he  has  been  in  Iowa  for  a  number  of  years.     They  are 
natives  of  Cumberland  County,  but  D.  B.  has  been  in  Iowa  since  '05  or 
?66.     He  is  part  of  the  time  in  Sioux  City  and  part  of  the  time  m  Kansas. 
He  was  in  the  cattle-trade  several  years  ago. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Who  is  Joseph  Bosler  ;  is  he  your  brother  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  does  he  reside? 

A.  In  Carlisle,  Pa.  r 

Q,  Did  you  have  a  contract  for  furnishing  leef  or  any  other  supplies 
for  the  Indians  prior  to  1874  ? 


164 

A.  No,  sir  5  I  have  never  bad  a  contract  for  supplying  any  of  the  In 
dians. 

Q.  Well  $  did  your  brother  have  such  a  contract  ? 

A.  J.  W.  Bosler  has  had  several  contracts.  He  has  had  a  contract 
for  Fort  Berthold  for  two  years,  for  furnishing'  beef-cattle. 

Q.  What  years  were  those,  do  you  recollect  f 

A.  The  two  past  years,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  J.  W.  is  not  Joseph  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  name  ? 
A.  James.     I  have  never  put  in  a  bid  for  Indian  contracts  in  my  life. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  did  either  of  your  brothers  have  any  contract  that  you  know 
of  prior  to  the  last  two  years  J? 

A.  None  that  I  know  of.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  J.  W.  Bosler  had  a  contract 
for  furnishing  beef  on  the  Missouri  Eiver.  It  was  when  Commissioner 
Parker  was  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs ;  I  cannot  tell  you  the  year. 
I  have  been  in  this  country  only  three  years  myself. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  contract  that  was  made  by  J.  K. 
Foreman  for  furnishing  beef  for  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  know  nothing  of  the  contract,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  contract  that  wras  assigned  by  Fore 
man  to  Paxton  ? 

A.  I  know  nothing  further  than  that  I  am  here  to  fill  that  contract 
for  W.  A.  Paxton  of  Omaha.  I  mean  I  am  here  attending  to  the  details. 

Q.  Where  do  yon  get  cattle  from  to  fill  these  contracts  ? 

A.  We  generally  buy  them  at  Ellsworth,  Kansas,  and  on  the  Platte 
Uiver,  between  Ogallala  and  Plum  Creek  in  Nebraska. 

Q.  Are  they  what  are  usually  called  Texas  cattle  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  You  don't  know  what  time  Foreman's  contract  was  assigned  to 
Paxton  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  seen  the  contract  till  I  saw  it  at  the  agency  out 
here.  I  am  acting  for  James  W.  Bosler,  in  filling  this  contract  for  Pax- 
ton. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  of  James  W.  Bosler  having  any  contracts  here 
tofore  from  the  Government  direct  ? 

A.  He  had  these  two  contracts  I  spoke  of  at  Fort  Berthold.  He  is  a 
bidder  every  year,  I  think. 

Q.  Do  you  think  he  was  a  bidder  last  year,  or  do  you  know  ? 

A.  I  think  he  was,  sir- 

Q.  At  the  time  the  contract  was  awarded  to  Foreman  ? 

A.  I  think  so,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  he  could  not  bid  for  contracts  ? 

A.  I  know  of  none  in  the  world. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any? 

A.  Never  heard  of  any. 

Q.  Now,  in  a  drove  of  six  or  seven  hundred  of  these  cattle  as  you  buy 
them — of  course  you  buy  them  with  reference  to  the  filling  of  this  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir 

Q.  You  select  such  cattle  as  you  think  will  fill  the  contract  in  weight? 

A.  We  buy  a  majority  of  these  cattle  from  four  or  five  different  men 
— I  think  the  number  would  embrace  half  a  dozen  men— and  buy  them 


165 

in  large  quantities,  six  or  seven  thousand  head  from  one  person.  Our 
contracts  always  call  for  cattle  of  four  years  and  upward,  cows 
and  beeves ;  we  call  beeves  four,  five,  and  six  years.  Those  are  the 
kind  of  cattle  we  have  always  contracted  for,  and  they  aim  to  deliver 
them  as  near  as  possible.  There  sometimes  will  be  a  few  smaller  cat 
tle  that  they  have  failed  to  cut  out  of  the  drove ;  they  aim  to  cut  them 
out,  but  sometimes  they  are  difficult  to  separate. 

Q.  In  delivering  beef  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  have  you  generally  been 
personally  present  when  you  have  delivered  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  sometimes  I  am  not,  but  as  a  general  rule  I  have  spent 
about  eight  or  nine  months  of  the  year  here  myself  personally  ;  part  of 
the  time  I  was  absent.  I  cannot  say  now  I  was  present  every  time  when 
the  cattle  were  delivered  at  the  agency.  Our  general  rule  is  this :  We 
have  two  camps,  and  we  have  a  man — the  boss-man — in  charge  of  each 
camp ;  and  when  the  agent  sends  an  order  for  four,  five,  or  six  hundred 
head  of  cattle,  he  (the  boss)  cuts  them  off  and  takes  them  in.  They  weigh 
them,  and  he  takes  a  memorandum-receipt.  I  may  not  get  the  receipts 
for  a  couple  of  months  afterward,  or  until  such  time  as  I  may  not  be  at 
the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  last  fall,  and  in  November  and  Decem 
ber,  the  cattle  you  delivered  there  were  or  were  not  weighed  when  they 
were  received  I 

A.  All  the  cattle  we  have  delivered  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  have 
been  weighed.  There  are  two  corrals  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  the 
scales  are  between  the  two  corrals.  Sometimes  at  the  winding  up  of 
the  weighing  of  them  there  are  some  wild  steers  which  cannot  be  got 
on  the  scales,  but  they  would  not  exceed  fifteen  or  twenty ;  then  those 
are  averaged,  and  tbey  are  generally  the  largest  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  of  a  time  when  there  were  only  seven 
head  of  cattle  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  1  cannot  tell  the  number,  but  I  remember  the  time  that 
there  was  a  small  bunch  of  cattle  there. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  Poor  cattle,  and  such  cattle  as  Dr.  Saville  rejected  and  never  re 
ceipted  to  me  for.  I  was  in  the  East,  and  1  returned  some  time  in  De 
cember—I  think  it  was  the  latter  part  of  December— and  there  were 
cattle  unreceipted  for  for  some  time  back,  and  Dr.  Saville  told  me  that 
there  had  been  a  lot  of  cattle  received  in  November  that  he  thought  he 
would  have  to  reject,  and  it  strikes  me  it  was  fifteen  head  that  he  just 
struck  off  the  average  and  did  not  receipt  for.  1  had  the  privilege  of 
taking  them  out  of  the  herd,  but  they  were  killed  by  the  Indians,  so  that 
I  never  got  them  out,  and  never  got  any  pay  for  them. 

Q.  I  suppose  cattle  in  that  section  of  the  country  get  fat  daring  the 
summer  and  fall a? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  cattle  are  usually  in  very  good  order  in  the  fail. 

Q.  Do  they  continue  in  good  order  far  into  the  winter? 

A.  My  experience  in  this  country  has  been  this:  That  cattle  will  im 
prove  until  about  thefirst  of  December :  then  they  hold  theirowu  through 
the  month  of  December  and  part  of  January,  and  as  a  rule  from  January 
to  February  and  March  they  will  shrink  a  little.     There  is  a  Stock  Ass 
ciation  in  the  State  of  Nebraska,  and  they  select  inspectors  to  n 
all  herds  passing  through  their  district,  for  the  purpose  of  seeing  whether 
there  are  any  ranch  cattle  among  them  ;  that  is,  cattle  owned  by  nit 
having  ranches  in  their  district,  and  which  might  have  gone  nit 
herd.    The  business  of  tho^e  inspectors  is  to  inspect  every  herd  passing 
through,  to  see  that  there  are  no  cattle  driven  off  owned  by  parties  rais- 


166 

ing  or  owning  cattle  in  the  district ;  they  are  familiar  with  all  the 
brands. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  are  those  inspectors  ? 

A.  I  was  going  to  give  you  the  name  of  one  in  Cheyenne  County,  in 
which  Sidney  is  located — C.  McCarty. 

Q.  Where  does  he  live  ? 

A.  He  is  a  stock-raiser. 

Q.  Does  he  reside  at  Sidney  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  one  in  the  district  east  of  his  is  T.  M.  Lawrence.  I 
think  his  district  is  east  of  McOarty's. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  in  the  fore  part  of  November,  1874,  of  their  being 
a  failure  to  supply  the  necessary  quantity  of  beef  at  Keel  Cloud  agency  f 

A.  Well,  we  had  a  plenty  of  beef  in  the  vicinity,  but  it  was  at  a  time 
when  Dr.  Saville  was  trying  to  count  the  Indians,  and  he  did  not  want 
to  issue  until  he  had  got  the  count.  He  was  notified  by  the  Department 
not  to  issue  them  anything  until  he  had  got  a  count  on  them.  It  had 
been  alleged  that  he  was  issuing  to  more  Indians  than  he  had  at  the 
agency.  He  had  got  a  count  on  them  once  before,  and  he  thought  it 
was  imperfect,  and  he  asked  the  Department  to  instruct  him  not  to  issue 
any  more  until  he  could  get  a  correct  count  on  them.  I  was  at  the 
agency  at  the  time,  and  of  course  he  told  us  not  to  bring  the  beef  in  until 
the  Indians  would  submit  to  this  count.  They  held  out  for  some  time, 
but  finally  they  submitted  ;  and  I  always  understood  that  he  made  up 
what  was  due  them  up  to  that  time.  I  think  it  was  on  the  14th  day  of 
November  that  we  brought  in  the  beef,  but  there  should  have  been  an 
issue  on  the  8th,  and,  as  I  understood,  he  made  that  up  to  them  by  giv 
ing  them  more  at  that  time. 

Q.  I  spoke  of  seven  head  of  cattle,  becau.se  of  the  fact  that  it  is  stated 
by  Professor  Marsh  that  there  were  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency  some 
seven  head  of  cattle  that  were  in  a  puny  condition  and  under  size. 

A.  I  didn't  see  those  cattle,  but  it  may  be  all  correct ;  I  don't  dispute 
Professor  Marsh's  statement  at  all.  It  is  liable  to  be  true,  and  I  haven't 
the  least  doubt  in  the  world  but  that  it  is  correct ;  but  if  it  is,  they  were 
the  remnant  of  cattle  that  had  been  delivered.  The  cattle  were  in  a  fair 
condition  when  we  delivered  them. 

Q.  There  were,  I  understand  you,  in  that  lot  some  cattle  that  the 
Doctor  rejected  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  strikes  me  that  the  number  was  fifteen.  I  won't  be 
positive,  but  it  was  not  less  than  ten.  I  know  he  wanted  to  strike  off 
fifteen,  and  I  thought  he  was  a  little  hard  on  me,  and  I  asked  him  if  ten 
would  not  make  him  whole,  and  I  am  not  certain  whether  he  took  oft* 
fifteen  or  ten  ;  but  I  aimed  to  do  what  was  right,  and  he  contended  for 
fifteen. 

Q.  You  say  that  in  purchasing  cattle  you  get  some  that  are  not  suita 
ble  to  be  supplied,  but  the  dealers  cannot  cut  them  out  of  the  herds. 
What  becomes  of  those  ? 

A.  We  generally  kill  them  for  camp  purposes,  and  if  a  band  of  In 
dians  comes  along  we  have  to  give  them  something,  and  we  aim  to  give 
them  some  of  those.  They  always  want  something,  and  they  won't  be 
satisfied  with  anything  but  the  beef  u  standing  on  four  legs,  as  the  Great 
Spirit  sent  it."  Several  times  when  I  myself  have  been  in  camp,  while 
traveling,  attending  to  this  business  of  furnishing  cattle  to  the  agency, 
I  have  had  Indians  come  to  the  camp  and  want  something  to  eat.  I  had 
three  quarters  of  a  good  beef,  and  when  I  would  offer  them  a  quarter 
they  would  not  take  it;  they  must  have  one  they  could  kill  themselves. 
They  have  a  prejudice  against  any  that  is  already  killed;  they  want  it, 


167 

as  they  say,  u  standing  on  four  legs,  as  the  Great  Spirit  sent  it."  If  a 
beef  could  have  two  hides,  it  would  be  more  satisfactory  to  them  5  they 
would  rather  have  more  hide  and  less  beef. 

I  Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  is  any  person  interested  with  James 
W.  Bosler  in  tilling  this  contract  for  Paxton  ? 

A.  All  I  know  positively  is  that  I  am  here  to  represent  him. 

Q.  You  don't  know  of  anybody  else  having  any  interest  in  the  matter 
except  he  and  Paxton  ? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  believe  there  are  other  parties  who  have  an  inter 
est  with  them,  but  I  know  nothing  at  all  about  it. 

Q.  You  don't  know  who  they  are  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  can  you  state  the  number  of  cattle  which  you  delivered 
at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  on  the  14th  November,  1874  ? 

A.  If  my  memory  serves  me  right,  I  think  it  was  701  head;  I  can  tell 
exactly  by  reference  to  my  books. 

Q.  There  had  been  no  delivery  of  cattle,  then,  from  the  1st  of  Novem 
ber  to  the  14th  ? 

A.  I  am  not  able  to  answer  that  question. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  your  book  here '? 

A.  Y^es,  sir ;  I  have  a  rough  memorandum  in  this  pocket-book.  The 
other  book  I  left  at  the  agency. 

Q.  I  see  that  this  Mr.  Foreman  calls  himself  "  of  Omaha  ;  w  do  you 
know  where  he  was  living  at  the  time  the  bid  was  put  in  ? 

A.  In  Pennsylvania,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  business  ? 

A.  He  is  a  stock-shipper. 

Q.  Is  he  engaged  in  dealing  in  stock  now  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  ? 

A.  In  Pennsylvania. 

Q.  In  Pennsylvania  now  ? 

A.  I  think  so,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  now  any  interest  in  this  contract? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  consideration  was  paid  him  for  the  assignment 

of  it  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  there  was  any  consideration  paid. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  went  to  New  York  at  the  time  the  bid 
was  made  $ 

A.  I  think  he  was  in  New  York  ;  but  don't  know. 

Q.  Were  you  there  ? 

A.  I  was  there,  but  I  took  very  little  part,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  know  whether  he  was  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Who  else  of  your  family  was  there— was  James  W.  tl 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Was  Joseph  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  Joseph's  business  1 

A.  He  is  a  farmer. 

Q,  Does  he  live  in  that  place?     (Carlisle,  Pa.) 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


168 

Q.  Has  be  not  been  out  here  in  the  cattle  business  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  lived  in  Sioux  City  iQ  '56. 

Q.  What  interest  have  you  in  this  contract? 

A.  Well,  my  interest  is  to  the  extent  of  about  $5,000. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  the  whole  net  results  of  your  business  is 
$5,000  a  year? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  amount  the  expected  profit,  or  is  it  a  salary  ? 

A.  That  is  the  expected  profit. 

Q.  Then  you  have  an  interest  in  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  have 'no  interest  in  the  contract ;  the 

Q.  You  have  an  interest  in  the  profit  of  filling  it? 

A.  I  have  an  interest  to  that  extent. 

Q.  You  cannot  receive  more  than  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  dependent  upon  profits  derived  from  the  filling  of  this  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  to  a  certain  extent. 

Q.  Have  you  any  objection  to  stating  your  exact  relation  to  this  mat 
ter? 

A.  None  at  all,  sir  5  I  have  no  interest  in  the  contract;  none  whatever, 
sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  relation  to  the  filling  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  represent  the  contractor.  The  fact  of  it  is,  I  am  really  here 
against  my  wishes ;  I  didn't  want  to  come,  but  I  was  urged  to  come.  I 
have  had  some  experience  in  the  cattle  business,  and  was  asked  to  take 
charge  of  filling  the  contract. 

Q.  By  whom? 

A.  By  J.  W.  Bosler,  my  brother,  and  Mr.  Paxton,  and  I  came  reluc 
tantly. 

Q.  "Upon  what  terms,  if  you  have  no  objection? 

A.  I  have  no  ejection.  To  the  extent  of  about  $5,000.  I  was  assured 
that  my  interest  would  be  at  least  about  $5,000.  I  will  state,  gentle 
men,  if  you  want  to  know  anything  about  the  business,  I  can  tell  you 
everything  about  it;  I  can  tell  you  what  the  profits  of  the  contract  are, 
or  anything  you  want  to  know. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  exactly  how  your  $5,000  is  to  be  determined. 

A.  I  was  assured  that  I  would  have  at  least  $5,000. 

Q.  You  don't  know  what  proportion  of  the  profits  that  interest  is — 
whether  it  is  a  quarter,  or  a  tenth,  or  what  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  was  to  have,  at  any  rate,  that  amount,  whatever  the}* 
made. 

Q.  Suppose  they  don't  make  anything  on  the  contract. 

A.  1  will  get  that  amount  any  how. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  you  are  to  have  a  salary ;  that  you  were  to  be 
paid  to  the  extent  of  $5,000,  irrespective,  of  the  question  of  profit  on  the 
contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  that  exactly,  either.  It  was  just  this  way  :  I  was  to 
have  an  interest  to  the  extent  of  $5,000  whether  they  made  it  or  not. 

Q.  You  were  to  have  that  whether  or  no  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  you  had  not  a  contingent  interest  in  the 
profits  beyond  that  amount  ? 

A.  No,  sir — well,  I  didn't  know.  I  might  have  expected  more  if 
they  had  done  better.  I  had  really  no  understanding  at  all  when  I  left 
home.  I  left  just  to  take  charge  of  this  business  ;  I  didn't  know  that 


169 

I  would  stay  to  the  end  of  the  year.  I  was  asked  to  come  out  and 
make  the  purchase  and  locate  the  cattle,  and  at  the  time  I  left  home  I 
did  not  expect  to  stay  over  two  months,  but  I  staid  to  the  end  of  the 
year. 

Q.  That  does  not  tell  me  your  relation  to  the  contract. 

A.  I  just  have  a  certainty  to  the  extent  of  $5,000. 

Q.  It  is  not  a  salary  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  it  is  not  a  salary  ;  neither  is  it  an  interest  in  the  contract. 

Q.  You  say  you  would  not  have  any  more  if  they  made  a  large  amount 
of  money! 

A.  No,  sir ;  except  through  their  liberality. 

Q.  And,  if  they  lost,  you  would  have  the  same  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  are  a  hired  man,  at  $5,000  a  year,  in  any  event  ? 

A.  Not  a  hired  man. 

Q.  Is  there  a  chance  outside  the  filling  of  the  contract  by  which  you 
expect  to  make  money  in  this  business  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  are  to  have  $5,000  for  the  year's  service,  and  no  less  if  they 
lose  and  no  more  if  they  make,  what  other  relation  have  you  than  as  a 
hired  man  ? 

A.  Well,  I  am  not  exactly  hired  at  a  fixed  salary. 

Q.  Is  there  any  way  that  you  may  make  more  or  less  than  that 
amount? 

A.  None,  unless  they  should  choose  to  give  it  to  me. 

Q.  Then  there  is  a  sort  of  a  private  mutual  understanding  between 
you  that  if  they  make  a  large  amount  of  money  out  of  the  contract  you 
will  have  more  ? 

A.  Only  unless  they  wish  to  give  it  to  me. 

Q.  There  is  a  remote  possibility  that  they  mav  be  liberal  enough  to 
do  it? 

A.  If  they  choose  to  give  me  any  more.  I  consider  my  services  worth 
not  less  that  $5,000 ;  I  would  not  stay  in  this  part  of  the  country  for 
."•ess  than  $5,000. 

Q.  You  say  it  is  not  a  fact  that  you  are  a  hired  man  at  $5,000  a  year  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don't  say  1  am  hired  at  $5,000  a  year,  but  I  was  assured 
that  I  would  get  $5,000  a  year. 

Q.  At  least  ? 

A,  Five  thousand  dollars  a  year. 

Q.  No  more. 

A.  Well,  no;  I  don't  know;  I  was  just  assured  that  I  would  get  not 
less  than  $5,000  a  year. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  Mr.  Paxton  ? 

A.  "¥es,  sir;  I  know  him  very  well. 

Q.  WThat  did  he  tell  you  ? 

A.  He  understood  it  the  same  way. 

Q.  In  the  filling  of  this  contract  is  there  any  other  way  in  which  you 
expect  to  make  a  profit  other  than  receiving  $5,000  a  year  as  salary  1 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  now  say,  upon  the  whole,  that  you  have  no  interest  in  this 
contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  a  signer  of  the  contract^  either  as  bondsman  or  wit 
ness? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  Mr.  Paxton  has  at  this  moment  any  interest  in 
the  contract ? 


170 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  not  the  whole  thing  your  brother's  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Had  Mr.  Foreman  any  idea  of  filling  the  contract,  so  far  as  you 
know,  when  he  took  it  ? 
A.  I  don't  know. 
Q.  Do  you  believe  he  had  ? 
A.  I  don't  know  that,  sir. 
Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  suppose  he  did  ? 

A.  I  know  no  reason  why  he  would  not.     He  is  a  man  of  property. 
Q.  You  did  not  make  a  bid  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  brother  James  did  ? 
A.  J.  AV.  did. 
Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Herman— whether  either  of  the  Hermans 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  can  you  state  the  names  of  the  men  on  Platte  Biver  from 
whom  you  buy  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Please  state  them. 

A,  Seth  Mabry,  George  W.  Littlefield,  James  F.  Ellison,  and  I  bought 
fi  herd  last  year  from  William  M.  Hurst,  and   I  bought  one  herd  from 
JJ.  B.  Fant  and  one  from  George  Sheidley  &  Bro.    That  is  the  firm 
but  George  generally  signs  his  own  name  alone, 

Q.  Where  are  these  men  located  ? 

A.  They  are  Texas  men. 

Q.  They  bring  their  herds  up  on  Platte  Biver  and  sell  them  there  * 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  bought  one  herd  from  General  Perry,  of  Omaha- 
Adams,  Beddington  &  Co.,  I  believe,  is  the  firm ;  Mr.  Beddiugton  is  the 
party  who  has  charge  of  the  ranch. 

Q.  Are  those  the  names  of  all  you  can  remember  on  Platte  Biver  ? 

A.  I  bought  a  small  bunch  this  spring  from  Irwin  &  Lawrence— a 
bunch  of  24  L  head. 

Q.  You  buy  some  cattle  in  Ellsworth,  Kansas? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  go  there  to  buy  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  do  you  buy  of  there  ? 

A.  These  same  men,  sir.  Ellsworth  is  the  place  they  have  been  driven 
to  until  last  year  and  this  year,  when  nearly  all  of  them  have  been 
driven  to  Platte  Biver.  Ellsworth  is  a  cattle-point  on  the  Kansas  Pa 
cific  Bailroad. 

Q.  Are  you  supplying  beef  to  any  other  agency  than  Bed  Cloud  ? 

A.  Only  these  two  agencies— Bed  Cloud  and  Whetstone,  (now  known 
as  bpotted  Tail.)  Mr.  Paxton  has  been  filling  the  balance  of  the  con 
tract  himself,  personally. 

Q.  Where  is  your  brother,  J.  W.? 

A.  He  is  in  Carlisle,  Pa. 

Q.  Is  he  engaged  in  filling  any  contract  this  year  ? 

A.  He  has  never  been  here  at  all.    Joseph  has  never  been  here. 

Q.  Never  has  supplied  any  of  these  agencies  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Didn't  you  supply  cattle  which  Wilder  furnished? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  in  1873  and  '74  ? 


171 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  were  you  interested  with  Wilder  ? 

A.  In  the  same  way. 

Q.  Were  Joseph  or  J.  W.  also  interested  in  the  same  way  ? 

A.  J.  W.  was. 

Q.  At  that  time  did  J.  W.  bid  for  furnishing  cattle  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Wilder  was  a  bidder  ? 

A.  \es,  sir. 

Q.  They  became  partners  after  Wilder  got  his  contract? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  partners  before  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  by  what  arrangement  they  became  partners  after 
ward  ? 

A.  It  was  merely  a  business  arrangement.  Mr.  Wilder  proposed  to 
J.  W.  for  him  to  take  an  interest  in  the  contract  and  fill  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Wilder  himself  did  nothing  about  filling  it? 
.  A.  I  don't  know  •  I  did  the  work  here. 

Q.  Y^ou  don't  know  that  Wilder  did  anything  about  filling  that  con 
tract  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  know  you  filled  it  ? 

A.  I  know  I  filled  it  for  these  two  agencies. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  say  that  contract  was  not  really  yours  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  was  not. 

Q.  Did  you  furnish  any  money  1 

A.  Not  a  cent. 

Q.  Did  J.  W.  furnish  any  money  ?  • 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  did. 

Q.  Yrou  say  you  have  furnished  no  money  on  this  contract  ? 

A.  Not  a  cent. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  J.  W.  has  I 

A.  I  know  he  has. 

Q.  So  you  receive  all  the  money  from  the  partners  and  put  it  in  cat 
tle,  so  far  as  these  two  agencies  are  concerned  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  the  money  ? 

A.  Each  one  pays  in  his  share  of  the  money ; 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  money  they  paid  in  on  this  contract  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  you  had  to  draw  against? 

A.  I  could  tell  you  at  the  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  About  what  is  the  aggregate  capital  invested  in  furnishing  these 
two  agencies  ? 

A.  Well,  I  bought  last  year  for  these  two  agencies  about  eighteen 
thousand  head  of  cattle  ;  I  had  them  on  the  Platte  at  one  time  for  about 
the  space  of  two  months ;  it  takes  about  eighteen  thousand  head. 

Q.  That  takes  considerable  money? 

A.  It  takes  very  near  half  a  million  of  dollars,  paid  down  at  one  time. 
They  are  all  bought  and  placed  in  the  fall  months ;  there  are  always 
enough  placed  there  to  fill  the  contract. 

Q.  And  before  you  deliver  them  to  the  agent  you  hold  them  at  your 
own  risk  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


172 

Q.  And  you  generally  buy  a  whole  herd J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Just  as  they  have  been  driven  up  from  Texas  ! 

A.  No;  we  buy  four-year-olds  and  upward-  we  cut  out  some;  they 
are  the  cheapest  cattle  per  pound.  A  lower  grade  of  cattle  cost  more 
than  we  can  get  for  them.  We  pay  about  2  cents  a  pound,  and  you 
cannot  buy  any  of  the  lower  grades  for  less  than  2J  cents  a  pound.  I 
bought  the  best  cattle  at  $1.80  a  hundred- weight.  "My  purchases  last 
year  went  from  $1.80  per  hundred-weight  to  2  cents  per  pound.  The 
smaller-size  cattle  cost  more  per  pound.  For  instance,  take  a  yearling: 
A  yearling  will  cost  $7.50,  and  it  takes  a  very  good  yearling  to  weigh 
300  pounds;  that  is  over  2  cents  a  pound.  Yoii  would  pay  $12  for  a 
two-year-old,  and  it  would  weigh  about  500  pounds.  2srow  we  get  up  to 
the  four-year-olds.  The  Indians  themselves  prefer  a  good  cow  to  any 
other  kind  ;  and  if  we  can  get  a  good  grade  of  cow  we  always  buy  it. 
We  could  buy  a  good  cow,  that  would  weigh  from  800  to  950  pounds,  for 
about  $12 ;  that  is,  a  good  Texas  cow.  Thousand-pound  beeves  gen 
erally  bring  from  $18  to  $20.  Then  in  getting  a  lot  of  beeves  we  some 
times  get  many  that  weigh  1,000  or  1,200  ;  some  would  go  less. 

Q.  You  don't  weigh  any  cattle  that  you  buy  f 

A.  Well,  no,  sir  ;  we  buy  them  by  their  age. 

Q.  So  you  give  $7  for  a  yearling,  $12  for  a  two-year-old,  about  $16 
for  a  three-year-old  ? 

A.  The  grades  usually  run  from  four  to  seven. 

Q.  Then  you  get  up  from  three  to  seven,  and  from  $18  to  $20  a  head? 

A.  Yes ;  so  it  is  to  the  interest  of  the  contractor  to  buy  the  higher 
grade  of  cattle ;  you  get  more  beef  for  the  money. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Why,  then,  do  they  bring  on  these  young  cattle  to  the  Platte  Eiver 
for  sale  ? 

A.  They  reason  this  way:  that  it  has  a  quieting  effect  upon  their 
large  cattle  to  bring  a  few  of  the  smaller  grade  with  them.  It  has  the 
same  effect  as  between  a  mother  and  a  family  of  children.  If  you  put  a 
few  young  ones  along  with  the  old  cattle  they  become  more  contented, 
and  they  are  more  easily  driven.  And,  then,  there  are  some  persons 
wrho  want  to  sell  their  young  stock. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  Can  you  explain  to  me  how  there  is  a  profit  in  an  Indian  contract? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  A  beef  weighing  a  thousand  pounds  would  cost  $18 ;  it 
costs  about  a  dollar  a  head  for  holding  cattle;  that  would  make  it  cost 
$10,  and  that  would  leave  a  profit  of  from  30  to  40  cents  on  one  hun 
dred  pounds;  and  in  a  contract  for  thirty  millions  of  pounds  it  would 
give  a  profit  of  $90,000,  at  30  cents  on  the  one  hundred  pounds,  and  of 
$120,000  at  40  cents  on  the  one  hundred  pounds.  The  profit  on  a  cow 
which  costs  $11,  and  which  would  weigh  nine  hundred  pounds,  would 
be  80  cents  on  the  one  hundred  pounds,  and  I  would  just  as  soon  put 
my  money  in  stock  of  this  kind  as  to  put  it  in  a  bank.  They  are  always 
salable — a  cash  article — and  in  this  country  the  percentage  of  loss  is 
very  light. 

Q.  IIow  many  cattle  did  you  have  during  the  winter? 

A.  We  started  in  December;  I  think  we  had  in  the  neighborhood  of 
five  thousand  or  six  thousand  head  about  the  1st  of  January,  but  we 
run  out  of  cattle;  we  had  no  more  than  filled  the  Foreman  contract.  I 
was  at  the  agency  last  spring,  and  the  Indians  were  really  suffering; 


173 

we  had  filled  over  the  contract,  and  everything  was  eaten  out  of  the 
commissary. 

Q.  You  charged  how  much  for  the  additional  amount  in  filling  the 
contract? 

A.  Three  cents  a  pound. 

Q.  What  stock  did  you  then  have  on  hand? 

A.  We  had  consumed  all  our  stock;  we  had  to  go  upon  the  market 
and  buy  wintered  cattle,  which  cost  us  about  2£  cents  a  pound.  We 
made  just  about  a  half  a  cent  a  pound  on  those  wintered  cattle. 

Q.  You  were  under  obligations  to  supply  25  per  cent,  in  addition  ? 

A.  As  I  understand  it,  the  terms  of  the  contract  were,  that  Mr. 
Paxton  was  to  receive  notice,  if  that  25  per  cent,  would  be  required,  in 
time  to  get  these  cattle  in  the  vicinity  of  the  agency. 

Q.  The  clause  in  the  contract  with  Foreman  is  this :  "  The  party  of 
the  first  part,  however,  reserves  the  right  to  require  a  greater  or  less 
quantity,  not  exceeding  25  per  cent,  in  either  case,  of  any  of  the  articles, 
than  that  specified  in  said  schedule,  at  the  price  or  prices  therein  stated, 
of  which  increase  or  decrease  in  the  quantity  required  a  reasonable 
notice  should  be  given  to  the  party  of  the  second  part."  Now,  do  you 
know  when  you  got  notice,  under  your  contract,  that  the  Department 
would  require  an  addition  under  that  25-per-cent.  clause  ? 

A.  I  never  got  any  such  notice. 

Q.  When  you  were  called  upon  to  furnish  the  cattle,  that  would  be 
notice  f 

A.  In  the  fall  of  the  year  I  brought  up  cattle,  and  brought  up  a  surplus, 
and  I  turned  all  those  in,  and  the  agent  wanted  more  cattle.  I  told  him 
I  would  fill  my  contract. 

Q.  Wrhen  was  that? 

A.  Along  about  the  latter  part  of  March.  He  had  nothing  else  in  the 
commissary,  and  he  applied  to  the  Department  for  something  to  feed 
his  Indians.  They  said  they  would  rather  have  beef  than  anything  else. 

Q.  So  that  when  they  called  for  these  the  contract  was  immediately 
entered  into  ? 

A.  No  ;  it  was  some  time  after,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  notice  you  had  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  that  at  one  time  you  had  some  poor  cattle — about  fifteen 
head,  you  thought  f 

A.  The  cattle  that  Professor  Marsh  probably  refers  to  had  been  deliv 
ered  at  the  agency  and  received  by  Dr.  Saville,  but  not  receipted  for. 
"When  I  came  along  in  December — the  latter  part  of  December  or  the 
first  of  January — the  doctor  told  me  that  there  were  ten  or  fifteen  head 
of  cattle  that  he  would  have  to  reject,  and  he  deducted  them  from  the 
amount  and  receipted  to  me  for  the  balance  of  the  cattle  that  had  been 
delivered  up  to  that  time. 

Q.  Now,  did  he  turn  out  to  you,  or  attempt  to  turn  out  to  you,  the 
rejected  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  would  rather  have  lost  the  cattle  than  have  driven  them 
back,  because  our  herd  was  eighty  miles  off. 

Q.  So  you  just  knocked  them  oft'  the  bill  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  within  your  knowledge,  or  were  you  not  informed,  that  the 
cattle  had  been  fed  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  I  didn't  .know,  and  I  was  not  so  informed. 

Q.  How  many  times  during  the  last  year  were  you  yourself  present 
when  cattle  were  turned  over  to  the  agency  ? 


174 

A.  I  cannot  mention  the  number  of  times. 

Q.  What  person  had  you  there  authorized  to  see  to  the  weighing  in 
your  behalf  ? 

A.  Now,  I  have  either  the  foreman  of  the  herd  or  my  brother,  who  is 
there  sometimes. 

Q.  What  is  his  name  ? 

A.  George. 

Q.  Does  he  work  for  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  any  interest  in  the  contract  ? 

A.  No.  sir. 

Q.  Younger  than  yourself  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  suppose  it  is  an  admitted  fact  that  all  the  cattle  furnished  were 
furnished  in  the  name  of  William  A.  Paxton  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  no  other  cattle  were  furnished  except  those  that  were  fur 
nished  by  William  A.  Paxton  1 

A.  No,  sir.  I  claim  that  I  filled  this  contract  honestly,  and  I  can 
establish  that  fact.  My  business  reputation  is  at  stake,  and  I  will  be 
glad  to  give  you  any  information  in  my  power.  I  am  satisfied  that  I 
will  be  set  right  by  sifting  this  thing  down  to  the  bottom.  I  read  Pro 
fessor  Marsh's  statement,  and  also  Lieutenant  Carpenter's  statement,  in 
regard  to  the  yearlings  that  were  delivered  on  the  14th  day  of  May, 
1875.  On  the  10th  day  of  May  I  received  part  of  a  herd  of  cattle  from 
General  Perry,  through  Mr.  lieddington,  and  the  lot  from  Irwin  &  Law 
rence — the  241  head  I  told  you  about.  My  contract  with  James  Eed- 
diugton  &  Co.  was  for  two  thousand  head  of  cattle,  four  years  of  age 
and  upward.  WThen  Mr.  Eeddington  brought  them  down  to  the  place 
of  delivery,  which  was  on  the  north  side  of  the  North  {Matte,  opposite 
the  agency,  he  had  58  yearlings  in  the  herd.  He  asked  me  if  I  could 
take  them.  I  told  him  I  could  not  use  them.  He  aimed  to  cut  them 
out,  but  failed  to  do  so,  and  said  they  might  go  along.  I  paid  him 
nothing  for  them,  and  they  were  not  counted.  A  good  many  Indians 
roped  these  yearlings  as  we  came  along,  and  killed  them  before  they 
were  delivered  to  the  agency,  but  there  may  have  been  a  few  of  them 
that  went  through.  These  were  the  yearlings  that  Lieutenant  Carpen 
ter  saw. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Lieutenant  Carpenter,  in  his  certificate  about  the  beef-cattle  which 
he  saw  issued  to  the  ludians  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  on  or  about  the  13th 
day  of  May,  1875,  says:  "There  were  many  yearlings  in  the  herd, 
which  would  not  net  200  pounds  of  beef,  and  to  the  best  of  my  knowl 
edge  and  belief  the  entire  herd  would  not  average  750  pounds  gross 
weight."  What  do  you  say  to  that  f 

A.  In  regard  to  the  weight,  I  have  Mr.  Reddington's  affidavit,  which 
I  will  hand  to  you  at  the  agency,  showing  what  he  estimated  the 
weight  of  them  to  be  when  he  turned  them  over;  and  also  the  receipt 
of  the  agent  as  to  what  they  did  weigh.  I  paid  nothing  for  the  year 
lings  and  I  received  nothing  for  them;  but  1  don't  know  but  that  I  was 
entitled  to  pay  for  them  ;  they  were  good  beef  and  were  eaten  by  the 
Indians. 


175 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Then  the  Indians  seem  to  be  aware  that  they  are  not  legitimate 
articles  of  delivery  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Has  it  ever  been  claimed  by  anybody  that  you  failed  to  fulfill  your 
contract  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  your  brother  J.  W.  ? 
A.  Not  to  iny  knowledge. 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Friday,  August  13,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  0.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

JOHN  HERMAN  BOSLER  recalled. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Question.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  page  25  of  Professor 
Marsh's  statement,  in  which  he  says  that  the  cattle  of  the  herd  delivered 
on  the  14th  of  November  were  so  wretchedly  poor  that  even  the  con 
tractor,  Mr.  Bosler,  deemed  it  necessary  to  apologize  for  them,  stating 
that  he  had  been  obliged  to  overdrive  them,  &c.  Did  you  make  that 
statement,  or  one  similar  to  that,  to  Professor  Marsh  in  regard  to  the 
quality  or  condition  of  those  cattle? 

Answer.  No,  sir,-  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  whatever  about  the 
cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Professor  Marsh  at  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  was  not  at  the  agency  on  that  day.  I  can't  exactly  say 
where  I  was  at  that  time.  I  was  somewhere  between  Cheyenne  and  the 
agency.  1  came  here  shortly  after  the  delivery  of  the  cattle,  and  after 
Professor  Marsh  returned  from  the  bone  fields,  and  about  the  time  he 
left  for  the  East.  1  never  saw  the  Professor. 

Q.  Was  your  brother  here  at  that  time? 

A.  My  brother  George  was  here  with  a  delivery  of  the  cattle.  He  is 
now  with  the  herd.  You  will  find  him  there  this  evening.  J.  W.  Bosler 
was  never  at  the  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  books  do  you  keep  of  your  purchases  of  cattle? 

A.  I  keep  just  a  memorandum.  I  can't  give  you  definite  information 
from  it.  J.  W.  Bosler  keeps  a  perfect  account.  I  send  him  the  receipts. 
He  keeps  a  regular  set  of  books,  showing  the  business  transactions. 
[Mr.  J.  W.  Bosler  here  showed  to  the  commissioners  a  contract  entered 
into  between  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  and  J.  W.  Bosler, 
dated  May  27,  1875,  for  the  delivery  of  500,000  pounds  of  beef,  gross 
weight,  to  be  delivered  at  Fort  Berthold  agency,  Dakota,  at  $-5.95  per 
hundred  pounds.  J.  W.  Bosler  was  also  contractor  for  beef  at  the  same 
place  for  the  year  1874,  and  the  only  place  where  he  was  the  lowest  bid 
der.]  In  the  Foreman  contract  the  schedule  is  referred  to,  and  by  the 
schedule  it  appears  that  the  beef  was  to  average  850  pounds  from  July 
1,  1874,  to  January,  1875:  and  1,000  pounds  from  January  1,  1875,  to 


176 

July  1,  1875.  Now,  let  me  explain  what  the  arrangement  was  with  the 
Indian  Department.  The  average  for  the  entire  year  was  925  pounds, 
and  this  was  taken  as  the  basis  of  settlement.  This  average  was  arrived 
at  by  adding  the  two  different  prices  together  and  dividing  it  by 
two,  giving  the  contractor  the  benefit  of  overweights  in  the  first  six 
months. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Wednesday,  August  25,  1875. 
Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
HOWE,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Pro 
fessor  GEORGE  AV.  ATIIERTON. 

JOHN  HERMAN  BOSLER  recalled. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Bosler,  will  you  state  at  what  time  and  in  what  quantity 
you  delivered  beef  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  in  the  months  of  January, 
February,  and  March  last  ? 

Answer.  I  delivered  on  the  5th  day  of  January,  1875,  447  head  of  cat 
tle,  weighing  433,590  pounds,  and  on  the  16th  day  of  February  I  delivered 
802  head,  weighing  844,800  pounds ;  this  was  a  lot  that  I  accompanied 
Mr.  Yates  with  to  the  agency  to  get  a  receipt  for.  He  met  the  herders 
on  this  side  of  the  agency,  and  the  Indians  were  killing  the  cattle  as  we 
passed  by  the  corral.  The  cattle  had  been  issued  and  the  Indians  were 
killing  them.  On  the  6th  day  of  March  I  delivered  575  head,  weighing 
595,800  pounds ;  and  on  the  5th  of  April,  558  head,  weighing  550,476 
pounds.  Now  I  want  to  state  in  connection  with  this  delivery  of  the 
Ifith  of  February,  I  was  about  ten  days  behind  time  in  getting  them 
there  owing  to  the  severity  of  the  weather.  I  was  ordered  by  the  agent 
to  have  them  there  in  the  early  part  of  February.  I  sent  a  messenger 
to  the  camp ;  my  herder  started  with  them  ;  they  encountered  a  snow 
storm,  and  were  from  ten  to  twelve  days  behind  when  we  got  to  the 
agency.  On  the  16th  Major  Howard  made  the  issue  of  the  ten  and  twenty 
on  the  same  day  out  of  the  corral,  as  I  understand  it.  I  was  present 
and  came  there  the  very  day  of  the  issue. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  severe  was  the  season  ;    describe  the  severity  of  the  season  ? 

A.  The  thermometer  was  really  40°  below  zero,  and  the  mercury  in 
the  thermometer  was  frozen. 

Q.  What  was  the  effect  upon  the  cattle  and  the  men  driving  them  in 
such  weather  ? 

A.  Several  of  the  men  came  in  with  their  feet  frozen  ;  the  cattle  would 
stand  it  better  than  the  men. 

Q.  Were  you  out  with  them  ? 

A.  I  was  not  with  the  herders.  I  was  at  Ked  Cloud  agency,  and  went 
down  with  Mr.  Yates  to  Spotted  Tail,  expecting  to  be  there  by  the  time 
the  cattle  would  reach  there.  When  I  arrived  there  the  cattle  had  been 
all  turned  over,  and  a  portion  of  them  was  being  issued  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  Was  that  the  time  you  were  frozen  yourself? 

A.  I  was  frozen  in  the  early  part  of  January.  I  was  at  Ked  Cloud 
agency  under  treatment  at  that  time ;  it  was  my  first  trip  out  after  my 
freeze.  I  went  down  with  Mr.  Yates  in  a  buggy,  and  had  my  hands 
wrapped  up.  I  met  my  herders  on  this  side  of  the  agency,  and  they  told 
me  the  Indians  had  killed  five  head  of  cattle  this  side  of  the  corral, 
which  the  agent  had  refused  to  receipt  for. 


177 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  often  were  you  to  deliver  cattle  there  ? 

A.  We  should  have  delivered  once  a  mouth  duriug  the  winter. 

Q.  How  many  issues  to  the  Indians  did  you  understand  that  to  cover! 

A.  Three  issues ;  they  issued  on  the  1st,  10th,  and  the  20th.  I  was  to 
have  had  cattle  there  in  the  early  part  of  February,  and  I  think  they 
missed  the  issue  of  the  1st  and  the  issue  of  the  10th.  I  got  there  be 
tween  the  10th  and  the  20th  ;  the  cattle  got  there  on  the  16th  of  Feb 
ruary. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  had  cattle  de 
livered  there  that  would  have  supplied  the  issues^  during  the  entire 
month  of  January  ? 

A.  When  we  delivered  the  cattle,  on  the  5th  of  January,  it  was  sup 
posed  that  the  number  then  delivered  would  last  through  the  month  of 
January. 

Q.  And  would  last  them  to  the  issue  of  the  1st  of  February  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Some  time  after  that  I  received  a  note  from  the  agent 
asking  me  to  have  cattle  there  the  early  part  of  February. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  time  you  received  that  note? 

A.  It  was  the  early  part  of  February,  perhaps  between  the  1st  and 
5th.  I  sent  a  messenger  with  it  to  camp,  and  directed  the  boys  to  start 
immediately  to  Whetstone  agency  with  the  cattle. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  Where  were  the  cattle  1 

A.  On  the  Platte  River.  I  had  exhausted  our  herd  on  Running 
Water  by  this  time. 

Q.  That  is  about  eighty  miles  from  the  camp? 

A.  That  is  a  point  about  seventy-five  miles  from  Whetstone. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  What  was  the  necessity  of  sending  a  special  note,  or  special  mes 
senger,  when  you  were  expected  to  deliver  them  in  the  early  part  of 
February  in  any*case? 

A.  We  always  awaited  an  order  from  the  agent ;  we  never  deliver 
unless  they  give  us  an  order. 

By  Mr.  FAL^LKNER  : 

Q.  When  should  those  cattle  you  speak  of  have  reached  Spotted  Tail 
agency,  in  all  probability,  were  it  not  for  the  storm  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  They  would  have  come  over  in  three  days  and  three  nights.  In 
the  winter- time  we  usually  start  from  our  herd-camp  in  the  evening 
and  drive  until  near  daylight;  the  boys  lie  down  and  rest,  turn  their 
ponies  out  to  grass,  and  let  the  cattle  graze  until  9  or  10  o'clock ;  then 
they  drive  again,  of  course  stopping  to  go  into  camp  and  have  their 
meals,  but  continue  driving  until  they  get  into  the  agency,  resting  the 
cattle  to  graze  and  water,  and  resting  the  horses. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Driving  night  and  day  with  intervals  of  rest? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  we  could  not  turn  them  loose;  they  would  scatter  if  we 
turned  them  loose. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  understand  you,  then,  there  was  but  one  issue-day ;  that  this 
storm  prevented  you  having  cattle  there  to  be  issued  on  the  10th? 
12  IF 


178 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  got  there  on  the  16th,  and  were  issued  the  same  day 
that  we  delivered  them  to  the  agency. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q,  Then,  Mr.  Bosler,  if  the  statement  were  made  that  110  cattle  were 
delivered  by  you  for  about  forty-five  days,  it  would  be  pretty  nearly  cor 
rect,  would  it  not? 

A.  There  were  none  delivered  between  the  5th  of  January  and  the 
16th  of  February. 

Q.  It  would  be  forty-two  days  instead  of  forty-five  ? 

A.  That  is  correct. 

Q.  So  that  if  the  statement  were  made  that  there  were  no  cattle  de 
livered  in  forty- two  days,  as  applied  to  you,  it  would  be  correct? 

A.  That  is  exactly  the  time  I  delivered  the  cattle. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  know  how  in  airy  issues  of  cattle  were  made  to  the 
Indians  in  January  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  were  any  issues  ? 

A.  When  I  got  there  with  these  cattle,  on  the  5th  of  January,  the 
issue  of  the  first  had  already  been  made,  but  of  these  447  head,  the  first 
issue  out  of  them  would  be  made  on  the  10th,  as  I  understand. 

Q.  Do  you  know  when  you  arrived  at  the  agency,  February  16th, 
whether  there  was  a  want  of  other  supplies  sufficient  for  the  require 
ments  of  the  Indians  at  the  agency  '? 

A.  I  heard  nothing  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  that  Indians  had  suffered  for  food,  and  were  really 
starving '? 

A.  1  did  not  hear  it. 

Q.  It  has  been  stated  that  wagon-trains  were  sent  out  in  December  to 
Fort  Randall  to  bring  in  supplies  for  that  agency,  which  did  not  return, 
by  reason  of  the  inclemency  of  the  wreather,  until  April.  Did  you  know 
that  at  the  time  ? 

A.  There  was  a  letter  from  one  of  the  freighters  stating  that  they 
were  snow-bound  on  this  side  of  old  Whetstone  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  know,  at  any  time  during  that  winter,  that  they  were  short 
of  rations  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  They  had  supplies  in  the  commissary  at  that  time  ;  my  impression 
is  that  they  did  not  run  out  of  supplies  at  the  commissary  until  the 
latter  part  of  March. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  had  to  reduce  the  amount  of  issues 
during  that  period,  or  not? 

A.  I  do  not,  indeed,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

•Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  whether,  at  any  time,  you  delivered  any 
cattle  to  Doctor  Irwin,  of  the  Shoshone  agency'? 

A.  I  delivered,  I  think,  253  head  in  October. 

Q.  Were  those  cattle  taken  from  your  herds  on  the  Platte  ? 

A.  They  were. 

Q.  Had  you  the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir.    I  delivered  them  through  General  Dodge. 

Q.  Had  he  the  contract  ? 

A.  He  had  the  contract. 

Q.  Did  you  understand  he  was  short  of  cattle  to  fill  that  contract 
with? 

•   A.  No,  sir ;  he  was  not  short.     I  had  the  cattle  here,  and  he  asked 
me  to  deliver  the  whole  amount  of  cattle  for  the  agency  for  the  entire 


179 

year.     They  were  all  received  at  one  delivery;  that  was  the  requirement 
of  the  contract. 

Q.  Did  you  attend  to  it  yourself? 

A.  I  got  the  cattle  out  of  the  herd;  we  just  cut  the  bunch  out  of  our 
herd.  I  think  we  cut  off  about  370  head,  if  my  recollection  serves  me 
right,  and  we  reached  the  agency  with  353. 

Q.  Did  you,  yourself,  go  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  sent  them  up  in  charge  of  Mr.  Robert  Porter,  one  of  our 
boss  herders. 

Q.  Were  they  received  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  Mr.  Porter  took  them  up  (I  do  not  knowT  Dr.  Irwln)  and  he  reported 
to  Dr.  Irwin  with  this  herd  of  cattle  for  General  Dodge's  contract.  Dr. 
Irwiu  came  out;  they  had  no  Fairbanks  scales  up,  and  the  Doctor  pro 
posed  that  he  would  pick  out  one  head  that  he  supposed  to  be  an  aver 
age;  Mr.  Porter,  who  represented  me,  was  to  pick  out  one  which  he  sup 
posed  to  be  an  average ;  the  butcher  belonging  to  the  agency  was  to  pick 
out  a  third,  which  he  supposed  to  be  an  average;  and  another  party— I 
think  it  was  the  agency  herder— was  to  pick  out  a  fourth,  which  he  sup 
posed  to  be  an  average.  Those  four  were  skinned  and  the  net  beef 
doubled.  I  think  they  weighed  about  990  pounds  gross,  and  he  gave  the 
herders  the  receipt  for  that  average. 

Q.  Were  any  cattle  rejected  from  the  herd  that  were  driven  up,  to 
your  knowledge? 

A.  Not  one. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  the  statement  made  that  a  portion  of  that 
herd  was  rejected,  or  the  whole  of  it,  by  Dr.  Irwin ;  that  he  refused  to 
receive  them  ? 

A.  I  never  heard  until  this  morning. 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  at  any  time  did  you  write  a  receipt  for  cattle  for  Dr. 
Saville  to  sign  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state  the  circumstances  attending  it,  fully? 

A.  Last  October  a  year— I  think  it  was  October,  1873;  it  was  shortly 
before  WTalker  went  to  the  agency — I  delivered  Dr.  Saville,  at  Red  Cloud 
agency,  a  certain  amount  of  cattle — I  think  the  number  was  between 
thirteen  and  fourteen  hundred — that  were  unreceipted  for  at  the  time  I 
called,  and  asked  for  the  receipts  for  cattle  that  were  delivered  up  to  that 
time.  I  came  to  the  agency  in  the  evening  and  told  the  Doctor  that  I 
was  leaving  next  morning,  and  wanted  him  to  have  the  receipts  ready. 
In  the  morning  I  called  at  the  office  and  he  had  written  out  one  receipt. 
I  waited  some  time,  and  he  came  into  the  office,  (I  might  just  remark 
here  that  his  clerk  was  not  there  at  the  time  he  was  in  Sioux  City,)  and 
he  was  so  hurried  that  he  finally  asked  me  to  write  the  rest  of  the 
receipts,  us  he  wrote  a  very  bad  hand.  I  picked  up  the  pen  an  d  copied 
two  receipts  from  his  original  receipt. 

Q.  How  many  receipts  are  required  ? 

A.  I  get  duplicates — I  get  two,  and  he  keeps  one  in  the  office. 

Q.  Now,  sir,  were  those  cattle  delivered  at  the  times  named  in  the 
receipts  ? 

A.  Those  cattle  were  delivered  before  I  got  the  receipt  for  them.  On 
looking  at  Mr.  Walker's  report  I  find  that  the  number  receipted  for  at 
that  time  was  1,280,  instead  of  between  thirteen  and  fourteen  hundred, 
as  I  have  before  stated. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  delivering  of  those  several  lots  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  1  was. 

Q.  Were  the  deliveries  actually  made? 


180 

A.  They  were. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  bad  a  receipt  for  Dr.  Saville,  under  any  circum 
stances,  for  cattle  before  they  were  delivered  ! 

A.  I  never  have. 

Q.  Or  which  were  not  delivered? 

A.  I  never  have. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  said  to  anybody  that  you  made  out  receipts  for 
the  agent's  signature? 

A.  Well,  I  may  have  to  somebody,  but  I  never  did  to  Mr.  Walker. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  him  '1 

A.  I  was  not  present  at  the  agency  when  Mr.  Walker  was  there ;  I 
met  him  at  Cheyenne  upon  his  return  here;  I  understood  that  he  was 
here,  and  1  aimed  to  meet  him  at  the  agency  and  met  him  at  the  depot 
here,  and  asked  for  aft  introduction  to  him.  Mr.  French  introduced  me. 
I  said  to  him  that  I  learned  that  he  had  been  to  the  agency;  I  said  I  was 
sorry  I  had  riot  met  him  there ;  that  I  would  have  liked  to  have  shown 
what  business  I  represented  there.  He  told  me  that  he  had  been  pres 
ent  at  the  delivery  of  418  head  of  cattle — I  think  on  the  10th  of  Novem 
ber — which,  after  being  weighed,  averaged  909  pounds  each ;  that  a 
majority  of  them  were  a  very  nice  lot  of  Texas  cattle.  I  said  to  him, 
"Did  you  go  to  the  herd  and  see  the  balance!"  He  said,  "No,  sir;  I  had 
not  time;  your  brother  invited  me  and  offered  to  take  me,  but  1  de 
clined  for  want  of  time.'7  I  said  to  him  that  I  was  sorry  he  had  not 
gone ;  that  this  cattle  question  seemed  to  be  a  sensitive  one,  and  1  was 
always  glad  to  exhibit  what  we  had  there.  He  replied  to  me  that  he 
was  not  there  on  that  business ;  that  he  was  only  there  to  look  at  the 
management  of  the  Indians  generally,  and  to  report  to  the  Board  of  In 
dian  Commissioners.  I  said  to  him,  "So  far  as  I  am  concerned,  how  did 
you  find  my  business  with  the  agency!"  He  said,  "Very  well."  I  said 
to  him,  if  there  was  any  information  he  wanted  that  I  would  be  glad  to 
give  it  to  him  here;  he  said  he  had  visited  the  herd  at  Whetstone 
agency,  and  found  some  small  cattle  in  the  herd,  but  the  herder  told  him 
that  they  were  a  remnant  of  cattle  that  had  accumulated  there.  That 
was  the  way  he  explained  it  to  me,  in  his  own  words;  that  was  about 
the  extent  of  the  conversation  we  had. 

Q.  Was  that  statement  he  made  concerning  the  cattle  at  Whetstone 
true? 

A.  It  was  not,  as  you  will  find  by  the  herder's  testimony  on  that  sub 
ject  in  Bishop  Hare's  report. 

Q.  Waiving  that  question,  I  ask  again,  what,  if  anything,  was  said 
to  you  by  him  about  preparing  receipts  for  Dr.  Saville  ! 

A.  Not  a  word. 

Q.  Did  he  ask  you  anything  about  having  written  or  copied  receipts? 

A.  He  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  saw  your  brother  James  at  that  time! 

A.  He  did  not  see  him  here. 

Q.  I  want  to  read  you  his  statement  to  see  if  I  cannot  bring  to  your 
recollection  every  conversation  with  Mr.  Walker.  "Mr.  J.  H.  Bosler 
told  me  in  Cheyenne  that  he  made  out  the  receipts  for  the  agent's  sig 
nature  !" 

A.  My  reply  to  that  part  of  his  statement  is  that,  so  far  as  my  mak 
ing  that  remark  to  Mr.  Walker,  it  is  positively  false. 

Q.  Did  you  make  it  to  any  person  here! 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  statement  contrary  to  that  which  you 
have  made  here  to-day  ! 

A.  I  have  not. 


181 

Q.  Have  you  made  the  statement  which  you  have  made  here  to-day 
to  other  people  I 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  have;  I  have  testified  on  that  point  before 
the  Bishop  Hare  commission,  a  report  of  which  is  on  record. 

Q.  Is  your  testimony  there  the  same  as  it  is  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  was  asked  questions  on  these  points;  rny 
impression  is  that  I  was  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  remember  stating  to  Mr.  Walker  the  fact  of  writing 
those  receipts  ? 

A.  That  I  positively  say  I  never  did. 

Q.  Did  you  write  more  than  one  receipt  for  the  signature  of  Dr.  Sa- 
ville  ? 

A.  I  wrote  the  two  duplicate  receipts  for  the  1st  and  the  15th  of 
October ;  i  wrote  them  both  at  the  same  time. 

Q.  Were  you  questioned  upon  the  subject  of  those  receipts  before  the 
Bishop  Hare  commission  ? 

A.  I  was  questioned  upon  the  subject  of  the  receipts ;  I  do  not  know 
whether  1  was  asked  the  question  whether  I  wrote  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  your  receipts,  when  they  are  made  out,  always  show  the  dates 
when  cattle  were  delivered  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  sometimes  we  have  two  or  three  months'  deliveries  of 
cattle  unreceipted  for. 

Q.  State  your  method  on  that  point. 

A.  When  1  am  absent,  which  is  frequent,  for  a  month  at  a  time,  and 
perhaps  two  months,  the  agent,  when  he  wants  cattle,  sends  an  order 
to  whoever  is  in  charge  of  the  camp ;  if  my  brother  is  there  he  receives 
the  order;  frequently  the  boss  man  in  charge  of  the  camp  delivers  those 
cattle  to  the  agency,  places  them  on  the  scale,  and  then  gets  a  memor 
andum-receipt  from  the  agent  for  them  ;  that  may  perhaps  be  continued 
for  two  months,  until  I  come  by  camp  ;  I  then  lift  those  memorandum- 
receipts,  take  them  to  the  agent,  and  get  my  regular  receipts  from  him. 

Q.  Then  you  get  a  receipt  from  the  agent  covering  the  gross  amount 
represented  by  these  memorandum-receipts? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But,  as  I  understand  you,  you  state  that  that  receipt  does  not 
indicate  the  dates  of  these  memorandum-receipts  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Dr.  Saville  in  the  early  part  of  his  administration  would 
date  all  his  receipts  on  the  1st  and  15th  of  each  month  5  latterly  he  has 
been  receipting  for  the  cattle  on  the  very  day  they  were  delivered,  and 
the  exact  number  delivered  on  the  day. 

Q.  So  that  you  have  no  longer  any  use  of  memorandum-receipts  I 

A.  O,  yes,  certainly ;  I  get  those  receipts  to  know  how  many  cattle 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  these  memoranda,  after  you  have  got  your 
final  receipt  f 

A.  1  destroy  them. 

Q.  Have  you  any  record  of  them,  aud  do  you  record  them  in  any 
permanent  form  in  your  book  <? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  just  keep  a  memorandum  of  the  amount  in  a  pass 
book  ;  I  have  no  record  that  will  show  the  record  of  these  memorandum- 
receipts. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  is  it  that  you  can  tell  of  the  delivery  of  a  particular  number 
of  cattle  on  particular  days  ? 


182 

A.  I  tarn  over  to  the  herder — to  the  man  in  charge  of  camp — say  five 
thousand  head  ;  he  delivers  the  cattle  to  each  agency  on  the  orders  of 
the  agent ;  the  herder  holds  those  orders  until  I  lift  them  ;  I  take  those 
orders  to  the  agent  and  get  my  receipts;  after  I  have  my  receipts  for 
the  orders  I  destroy  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  But,  then,  you  have  no  record  showing,  for  yourself,  the  deliveries 
of  cattle  from  time  to  time  at  each  date  ! 

A.  No. 

Q  Then,  if  you  were  to  refer  to  your  books  now,  you  have  no  record 
to  show  the  specific  deliveries  of  each  lot  of  the  cattle  to  the  agent  with 
the  date  of  each  ? 

A.  I  could  give  you  a  memorandum,  for  instance,  if  you  should  ask 
me  what  I  delivered  for  the  past  three  months;  but  I  could  not  for  a 
year  back;  that  is  because  I  happen  to  have  preserved  my  memoran 
dum,  but  not  because  I  have  any  permanent  record  of  it.  When  I  get 
a  voucher  from  the  agent,  I  deduct  from  the  whole  number  in  the  herd 
the  number  for  which  I  have  got  a  voucher,  and  thus  know  the  number 
remaining  in  the  herd;  the  deduction  is  not  made  upon  the  orders 
which  the  herder  holds  and  turns  over  to  me  until  I  get  the  voucher 
for  the  orders. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  state  that,  on  the  5th  of  January,  you  delivered  so  many  cat 
tle  ;  now,  how  do  you  reach  the  result  that  on  those  days  you  delivered 
so  many  cattle ;  is  it  based  upon  vouchers  given  to  you  by  the  agent? 

A.  I  get  the  vouchers  the  very  day  that  I  deliver  them ;  they  are 
based  upon  the  vouchers  I  have  in  my  possession.  In  my  memoran 
dum-book  I  make  a  note  of  the  number  of  cattle  I  have  on  hand,  and 
then  get  the  receipts  and  the  date  of  them. 

Q.  How  could  you  reach  the  result  that  on  such  a  day  you  delivered 
so  many  cattle  to  the  agent,  and  on  such  a  day  you  delivered  so  many 
more  to  the  agent? 

A.  At  the  time,  Dr.  Saville  was  in  the  habit  of  grouping  the  deliveries 
of  cattle  in  on  one  voucher  embracing  several  memorandum-receipts,  I 
could,  by  reference  to  a  permanent  record,  indicate  the  particular  deliv 
eries  constituting  that  general  voucher,  but  since  that  time  he  has  been 
in  the  habit  of  giving  a  voucher  corresponding  with  each  memorandum- 
receipt,  showing  the  number  of  cattle  on  each  particular  delivery,  and 
those  vouchers  are  all  entered  on  my  book,  and  lean  produce  the  record 
of  them.  The  memorandum-receipt  taken  by  the  herder  for  the  cattle, 
is  returned  by  me  to  the  agent,  and  for  it  I  take  a  voucher  in  the  name 
of  the  beef-contractor,  and  surrender  the  memorandum-receipt,  and  the 
agent  destroys  it.  In  my  testimony  taken  before  the  Bishop  Hare  com- 
inision,  1  gave  an  accurate  account  of  several  deliveries  of  cattle  for  two 
or  three  months,  which  they  took  from  a  memorandum-book  I  had,  and 
showed  them,  which  I  have  not  now  with  me. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  charge  of  all  the  business  delivery  during  the  years 
1873,  1874,  and  1875  ? 

A.  I  have. 

Q.  Has  your  brother,  J.  W.  Bosler,  had  anything  to  do  with  the  de 
livery  of  cattle  here  during  that  period  ? 

A.  He  has  not.  He  had  never  been  at  the  agencies  until  he  went 
over  a  few  weeks  ago  with  this  commission,  in  the  early  part  of  August 
of  this  year. 


183 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  has  had  any  correspondence,  conversa 
tion,  or  communication  with  Agent  Saville  during  that  period  ? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Has  Agent  Saville  received  any  profit  from  the  cattle-contract  ? 

A.  He  has  not. 

Q.  Has  he  any  promise  from  you,  or  any  person  connected  with  the 
delivery  of  cattle  or  with  a  cattle-contract — any  promise,  express  or  im 
plied,  by  which  he  is  to  derive  any  profit,  benefit,  or  advantage  from  the 
cattle-contract  ? 

A.  He  has  none  from  me,  and  none  from  any  other,  to  my  knowledge 
or  belief. 

Q.  Has  he  received,  at  any  time,  any  presents  from  you,  or  any  of  the 
other  persons  connected  with  that  contract  ? 

A.  None.  I  have  handled  all  the  moneys  connected  with  this  con 
tract  and  with  our  business  with  these  agencies,  and  he  has  never  got 
a  cent  from  me.  I  have  made  up  the  accounts  by  which  the  contracts 
were  settled,  and  there  has  never  appeared  anything  in  the  accounts  of 
one  cent  paid  to  him. 

Q.  If  it  has  not  appeared  in  the  account,  has  any,  in  fa<?t,  been  given  ? 

A.  None. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say,  unequivocally,  without  reservation,  that  in  no 
way  whatever  has  Dr.  Saville  received  any  benefit  arising  from  the  cat 
tie- contract  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  promise,  understanding,  or  agreement  that  he  shall 
hereafter  receive  any  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  this  covers  all  contracts — past  or  future  benefit  I 

A.  It  does. 

Q.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  now  to  the  stampede  of  1873,  and  ask 
you  to  state  all  you  know  about  it. 

A.  I  stated  that  in  full  in  the  Bishop  Hare  report.  I  have  read  it 
since  it  was  published,  and  that  statement  is  correct.  I  was  present  at 
the  agency  at  the  time  this  occurred.  I  assisted  the  agent,  with  my  men, 
in  the  recovery  of  those  stampeded  cattle,  at  his  request;  and  those  cat 
tle  were  all  returned  to  the  agent,  with  the  exception,  I  think,  of  sixty- 
seven  head.  In  gathering  those  stampeded  cattle  over  the  country  they 
were  very  wild,  and  we  turned  them  into  our  herd;  the  agent's  boss-herder 
was  with  us  ;  he  took  a  receipt  from  the  man  in  charge  of  my  herd  for 
the  number  turned  in.  After  they  had  scoured  the  country  over  and 
gathered  all  that  they  could  find  they  were  then  turned  over  to  the 
agent,  and  I  think  he  was  out  sixty-seven  head,  if  I  remember  correctly. 

Q.  You  do  not  mean  to  say  that  you  returned  to  the  agent  precisely 
the  same  cattle  that  were  stamped  ? 

A.  We  just  cut  out  and  returned  the  same  number. 

Q.  And  do  you  know  whether  any  weight  was  taken  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  had  already  receipted  for  those  cattle.  I  returned  him 
just  the  number,  taking  them  at  the  same  weight  that  they  had  been 
receipted  for  before. 

Q.  Were  they  equal  to  the  cattle  he  had  receipted  for  ? 

A.  Yes.  sir ;  they  were  out  of  the  same  herd. 

Q.  What  evidence  did  Dr.  Saville  hold,  after  the  cattle  had  got  back 
to  your  herd,  of  the  number  which  were  received  1 

A.  Dr.  Saville  had  no  evidence  in  the  world  that  they  were  in  my 
herd.  After  the  stampede  the  cattle  were  scattered  all  over  the  country 
between  White  liiver  and  Tlatte  liiver.  Dr.  Saville's  herders  and  a 


184 

portion  of  my  herders  went  out  to  bunt  the  cattle.  As  they  were  found, 
(they  were  found  in  bunches  of  perhaps  fifteen,  twenty,  thirty,  or  forty, 
over  the  prairies)  they  were  returned  to  my  herd,  and  held  for  them 
until  they  were  all  gathered.  The  man  in  charge  of  my  herd  gave  the 
agency-herder  a  receipt  for  each  lot  turned  in  while  they  were  gathering 
them,  and  then  I  turned  over  to  the  agency  a  number  equal  to  the 
entire  number  gathered. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  receipt  or  voucher  from  the  agent  entitling 
you  to  payment  for  those  that  were  turned  over  1 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  received  a  voucher  previously  ? 
A.  I  had  a  voucher  previously. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now  to  the  stampede  of  1874 — of  last  year.  Do  you  know  about 
that,  and  the  return  of  the  cattle? 

A.  I  think  I  stated  that  to  you  in  my  former  examination  at  the 
agency. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  number  of  Indians  fed  at  Spotted  Tail  agency? 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  my  own  positive  knowledge;  about  nine  thou 
sand  head,  I  understood. 

Q.  The  beeves  you  delivered  on  the  5th  of  January  last  weighed 
433,590  pounds  gross.  What  would  those  net  ? 

A.  They  would  average  each  a  gross  weight  of  970  pounds. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  the  average  gross  weight  of  the  cattle;  I  ask 
you  the  net  weight  of  the  whole  lot  I 

A.  The  net  weight,  in  our  way  of  computing  it,  would  be  216,795  pounds. 

Q.  With  9,000  Indians  to  be  fed,  that  would  require  9,000  pounds  a 
day,  and  forty  days'  rations  would  amount  to  what ? 

A.  That  would  require  360,000  pounds  of  beef. 

Q.  Between  the  5th  of  January  and  the  16th  of  February,  when  you 
made  your  next  delivery  of  cattle,  the  9,000  Indians  at  the  agency 
would  require  360,000  pounds? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  had,  in  fact,  only  216,795  pounds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  delivered  on  the  16th  of  February  how  many  cattle  ? 

A.  Eight  hundred  and  two,  weighing  844,800  pounds. 

Q.  Out  of  which  deliveries  was  it  you  understand  the  Indians  killed 
five  head  ? 

A.  The  delivery  of  February  16th. 

Q.  You  say  the  agent  refused  to  receipt  for  them,  and  never  did 
receipt  for  them  'I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  compensation  for  those  five  head  of  cattle  I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  cattle  killed  in  open  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  killed  outside  of  the  corral. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  requisition  Avas  made  by  the  agent 
on  the  Indians  for  reclamation  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  any  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


185 

Q.  You  say  the  agent  gives  yon  two  receipts.  Duplicate  receipts,  you 
mean? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  use  bave  you  for  two? 

A.  They  are  both  sent  to  the  Department. 

Q.  You  have  superintended  the  receipt  of  cattle  from  Mr.  Mabry  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  understand  you  have  recently  had  a  settlement  with  him  for  the 
number  received  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  received  on  the  contract  for  the  current  year  ? 

A.  I  have  received  18,005  head  for  these  two  agencies — lied  Cloud 
and  Spotted  Tail. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  were  cows  and  how  many  were  steers? 

A.  About  three-quarters  of  them  are  steers,  four-year  old  and  upward, 
and  about  one-quarter  of  them  are  cows. 

Q.  Can  you  not  give  the  exact  number  of  each  ? 

A.  I  can  hand  it  to  you;  I  can't  give  it  to  you  positively  here,  but  I 
can  give  it  to  you  at  the  hotel. 

Q.  What  was  the  aggregate  sum  due  Mr.  Mabry  for  cattle  already 
delivered? 

A.  Two  hundred  and  twenty-five  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Precisely? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  making  that  aggregate  sum,  what  was  the  price  paid  for  cows, 
and  what  was  the  price  paid  for  steers  ? 

A.  Twelve  dollars  for  cows  and  $20  for  steers. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Friday,  July  30,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  C.  W.  EINER. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Do  you  reside  here  in  Cheyenne  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here  ? 

A.  About  two  years. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  engaged  in  ? 

A.  Clerking  for  the  firm  of  Pease  &  Taylor,  who  keep  a  grocery  store. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  that  business? 

A.  I  have  been  at' the  store  about  twelve  months  now  regularly; 
irregularly  before  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  some  flour  that  was  branded  "Indian 
Department  Flour"  that  was  sent  to  your  store? 

A.  We  have  some  such  in  the  store;  some  that  is  branded  "Indian 
Department." 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  it  came  from  ? 

A.  It  came  from  Mr.  Athorp. 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  how  much  you  got  of  that  flour — how  many 
sacks  of  it  .you  received  ? 

A.  Wre  bought  of  him  directly  fifty  sacks;  then  he  stored  perhaps 
about  a  hundred.  I  would  not  be  positive  about  the  number. 


186 

Q.  Have  you  got  so  rue  of  it  left  yet ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  sell  some  of  it  ? 

A.  Occasionally. 

Q.  What  do  you  get  for  it  ? 

A.  We  have  got  from  $2.50  to  $3  a  sack. 

Q.  A  sack  weighs  a  huudred  pounds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  what  does  an  ordinary  grade  of  other  flour  sell  at  1 

A.  From  $3.50  to  85  per  hundred  pounds. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Wrhat  is  a  good  quality  of  flour  worth  here  ? 

A.  We  haven't  any  flour  in  the  store  that  we  can  sell  for  less  than 
$3.50.  We  don't  keep  any  flour  less  than  $3.50  grade. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  does  that  $3.50  flour  compare  with  this  Indian  flour  ? 

A.  It  is  far  better. 

Q.  For  what  purpose  is  that  Indian  flour  bought  when  you  sell  it  I 

A.  The  most  we  have  sold  has  been  sold  for  feed  for  horses  and  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  that  flour  before  it  came  to  your  store  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  don't;  not  of  my  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  anything  about  it  I 

A.  I  know  where  it  came  from,  fiom  what  direction,  and  how  we  hap 
pened  to  get  it.  It  was  flour  that  Mr.  Martin  sent  here. 

Q.  Is  the  name  of  the  mill  it  was  made  at  branded  on  this  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  Is  it  put  up  in  double  sacks  ? 

A.  It  is  not. 

Q.  You  say  some  of  it  is  at  your  store  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir ;  Mr.  Athorp  has  sold  the  most  of  his.  He  has  quite  a  squad 
of  men  working  for  him ;  I  don't  know  what  use  he  has  made  of  it,  but 
the  most  of  it  has  gone  through  his  hands.  We  have  sold  a  little,  but 
the  most  we  have  sold  has  been  for  feed ;  we  could  not  sell  it  for  any 
thing  else.  Occasionally  there  is  a  sack  that  is  quite  good,  but  the 
greater  part  of  it  is  not. 

Q.  You  have  some  of  it  in  sacks  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  not  in  two  sacks — double  sacks  I 

A.  No,  sir 5  single  sacks.  They  are  sacked  just  as  we  get  our  other 
flour. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  that  kind  of  flour  was  ever  sent  up 
to  the  Indian  agency  or  not  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  us  of  somebody  that  you  have  reason  to  suppose 
knows  about  it  ? 

A.  I  suppose  one  of  our  firm  would  know,  but  he  is  not  in  town,  and 
probably  won't  be  for  two  or  three  weeks ;  the  other  one,  I  think,  don't 
know  anything  about  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  understood  this  to  be  flour  that  had  been  condemned  by  the 
inspector '? 

A.  Yes;  I  had  that  impression. 

Q.  Have  you  any  impression  that  any  flour  that  got  into  your  hands 
was  brought  from  the  agency  ? 


187 

A.  I  don't  think -this  ever  got  to  the  agency.  Mr.  Martin  brought 
it  up  here.  Mr.  Martin  owed  Mr.  Athorp  quite  a  debt,  and  lie  took  the 
flour  for  the  debt.  He  had  quite  a  lot  of  flour  stored  in  French's  old 
warehouse,  and  I  think  he  had  it  in  three  grades,  all  marked  "Indian 
Department  Flour,"  and  we  got  the  best  grade  of  it.  I  don't  know  what 
he  did  with  the  rest  of  it. 

Q.  All  the  flour  that  was  there  was  said  to  be  condemned? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  it  was.  Mr.  Athorp  trades  at  our  store,  and  he 
and  I  always  have  been  quite  intimate,  and  I  have  talked  about  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  or  opinion  that  any  flour  came  into  your 
hands  which  belonged  to  the  Indian  Department  at  any  time  ? 

A.  No;  I  didn't  think  that  at  all,  except  Mr.  Athorp  told  me  what 
he  did.  I  had  some  idea  then  that  perhaps  he  (that  is,  Mr.  Martin)  had 
intended  this  flour  for  the  Indians,  and,  when  it  got  here,  Mr.  Athorp 
took  the  flour  by  law.  That  is  the  way  he  got  the  flour  into  his  hands, 
and  I  believe  they  settled  it  afterward. 

Q.  So  this  particular  flour  never  passed  into  the  possession  of  the  In 
dian  Department? 

A.  No ;  I  am  quite  sure  of  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  Athorp's  claim  was! 

A.  I  could  not  say  positively,  but  it  was  some  five  or  six  thousand 
dollars. 


TESTIMONY  OF   H.   W.  MOORE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside? 

Answer.  Here  at  Cheyenne. 

Q.  What  is  your  business  ? 

A.  I  am  in  the  freighting  business.  I  was  Government  store-keeper 
here  from  May,  1872,  to  the  first  of  July,  1874. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  reason  vftiy  the  flour  was  put  up  in 
88-pound  sacks J? 

A.  In  a  conversation  with  D.  J.  McCann  (I  think  it  was  with  McCann  j 
it  might  have  been  with  I.  W.  French)  he  told  me  that  the  reason  they 
put  up  flour  in  88-pound  sacks  was  that  the  mills  had  run  out  of  sacks ; 
that  he  told  them  he  must  have  some  flour,  and  they  sent  out  and  got 
some  sacks,  which  were  these  sacks. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  flour  shipped  to  the  Indians  in  sacks  of  that 
size  before? 

A.  I  never  saw  them  shipped,  I  only  heard  they  were  shipped. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  about  the  cost  of  freighting  from 
here  to  Ked  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  When  I  was  hiring  freight  for  Mr.  McCaun,  I  hired  teamsters  at 
$1.50  for  Mexicans  and  $1.75  for  others,  per  hundred  pounds,  for  the 
whole  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency;  in  the  winter  I 
paid  $2.  Since  1873  there  has  been  no  difficulty  in  hiring  all  the  trans 
portation  required  here  to  carry  Government  goods  at  those  rates.  I 
could  have  got  transportation  for  double  the  amount  at  those  rates. 

Q.  Now,  the  question  is  practically  whether  McCann's  agent  here  has 
to  go  out  and  hire  transportation  just  at  the  time  it  is  wanted.  While 


188 

you  were  acting  as  his  agent  you  had  to  go  out  and  hunt  up  wagon 
transportation  when  you  wanted  it ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there  was  no  difficulty  in  getting  wagons;  when  I 
wanted  them  I  went  out  and  got  them. 

Q.  How  often  did  McCann  come  here  to  look  after  his  business? 

A.  He  would  come  here  and  stay  two  or  three  weeks,  and  go  away 
and  be  gone  two  or  three  months. 

Q.  What  compensation  did  McCann  pay  you  ? 

A.  McCann  paid  me  $1,000  a  year  as  his  agent. 

Q.  Was  that  while  you  were  receiving  $1,500  a  year  as  store-keeper? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  Mr.  Boat  wick  is  now  receiving  as  McCaun's 
agent? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  parties  are  interested  with  McCanu  in  that 
contract? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  anybody. 

Q.  Had  he  anybody  interested  with  him  at  the  time  you  acted  for 
him? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Have  you  any  interest  now  with  McCann,  or  with  any  of  the  con 
tractors  ? 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Directly  or  indirectly  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  While  you  were  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  what  was  the  system 
pursued  in  the  distribution  of  supplies  and  annuity  goods  to  the  Indians? 

A.  AVell,  there  is  a  regular  roll  of  the  Indians  kept  there — the  num 
ber  of  persons  in  the  lodges — and  I  would  take  the  list  over  to  the  ware 
house. 

Q.  On  distribution-days  did  you  have  a  list  made  out  beforehand  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  the  quantity  of  each  article  each  man  was  entitled 
to  specified  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Befoiehand? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  suppose  you  call,  say  for  instance,  Spotted  Tail  to  receive 
his  supplies,  how  is  the  distribution  made? 

A.  Spotted  Tail  would  come  up  and  I  would  find  his  name,  and  give 
him  out  so  many  pounds  of  sugar  or  coffee,  or  so  much  soap  or  tobacco, 
and  his  squaws  would  take  it  off. 

Q.  Was  his  part  separated  in  piles  so  as  to  correspond  with  the  amount 
on  the  book  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  coffee  and  sugar  tied  up  in  sacks  and  put  in  a  pile 
by  itself.  Spotted  Tail  didn't  draw  there,  however. 

Q.  Here  were  sugar  and  coffee  and  pork  or  bacon  ;  and  then  the  an 
nuity  goods — were  they  separated  also  ? 

A.  In  distributing  the  annuity  goods  we  called  them  inside  the  ware 
house-yard,  and  put  out  so  man}7  blankets,  and  so  many  yards  of  calico, 
or  pieces  of  calico,  and  so  many  coats,  and  so  many  pairs  of  socks,  &c., 
for  Red  Cloud;  and  then  the  next  man  would  come  up  and  get  his  in 
the  same  way ;  there  was  a  list  made  out  of  what  they  were  to  have. 

Q.  Was  that  list  checked  ? 

A.  It  was  a  long  list,  and  it  was  checked  off. 

Q.  You  had  nothing  to  do  but  check  the  items  as  each  man  received 
them  ? 


189 

A.  That  is  all. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  is  that  the  system  which  prevailed  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  as  to  pork? 

A.  We  never  had  any  pork  when  I  was  there ;  it  was  bacon. 

Q.  Was  the  bacon  weighed  ?. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  he  received  the  exact  number  of  pounds  he  was  entitled  to! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  was  it  ascertained  beforehand  what  he  was  entitled  to  ? 

A.  The  Indians  would  come  there ;  they  would  give  the  interpreter 
the  number  of  people  they  had  in  their  lodges,  and  they  would  give  it 
in  this  way  :  "I  have  got  seventeen  lodges.  I  have  got  nine  lodges 
standing,  and  eight  of  them  with  two  families  in  each."  That  counted 
seventeen  lodges ;  they  count  seven  persons  to  a  lodge. 

Q.  How  could  you  determine  how  much  pork,  for  instance,  each  man 
was  entitlqcl  to  on  that  day? 

A.  The  rule  was  the  Regular  Army  rule. 

Q.  What  was  the  Regular  Army  rule,  as  you  applied  it  there? 

A.  Well,  I  have  forgotten  now  ;  regular  rations. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  have  a  certain  number  of  rations  of  each  article  for  so  many 
days,  and  those  are  separated  and  weighed  and  delivered  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  same  as  they  do  in  the  Army,  exactly. 

(^.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  number  of  Indians  that  you 
supplied  at  any  one  time  I 

A.  It  was  estimated  at  9,000  Indians  ;  that  was  in  Dr.  Daniels's  time. 

Q.  Do  you  suppose  there  was  that  number  I 

A.  It  was  the  nearest  we  could  get  at  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  was  any  objection  on  the  part  of  the 
Indians  to  enumerating  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  was. 

Q.  State  what  you  know  about  that,  in  your  own  way. 

A.  They  didn't  wish  to  have  their  lodges  counted. 

Q.  Do  you  know  for  what  reason  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  they  object  to  that  number,  9,000,  as  being  too  small  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  it  not  understood  by  you  that  their  purpose  was  to  get  more 
rations  than  they  would  get  if  there  was  an  enumeration  I 

A.  We  used  to  avoid  that  m  this  way  :  When  an  Indian  would  come 
in  and  say,  "I  have  twenty-five  lodges,"  (so  many  standing,  and  so 
many  with  two  families  to  a  lodge,)  we  would  cut  them  down  to  about 
eighteen,  and  give  him  rations  for  about  eighteen  lodges ;  and  still  we 
had  9,000. 

Q.  So  that  you  actually  gave  rations  to  a  less  number  of  Indians  than 
they  claimed  they  were  entitled  to  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think,  from  your  experience,  is  the  usual  number  of 
a  family  ;  do  you  think  it  will  average  seven  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  five  ?, 


190 

A.  I  think  it  would  be  between  four  and  five.  I  don't  think  it  would 
run  over  five,  from  what  I  have  seen  of  Indians  in  the  lodges  where  I 
have  been. 


TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  MARSHALL. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? 

Answer.  I  reside  at  Council  Bluffs. 

Q,  Mr.  Marshall,  we  would  like  to  have  you  tell  us  anything  you 
know  with  reference  to  the  supplies  furnished  for  the  Indians — any  of 
the  agencies  out  here,  and  any  matters  relating  to  the  transportation  of 
the  supplies,  or  any  information  that  you  can  give  that  will  assist  us  in 
ascertaining  whether  these  supplies  are  properly  and  honestly  furnished 
to  the  Indians. 

A.  Well,  sir,  in  the  last  eighteen  months  I  have  had  nothing  to  do 
with  it  excex^t  to  make  one  shipment  of  corn,  about  a  month  ago,  upon 
this  new  contract.  Three  years  ago,  or  two  years  ago,  I  had  something 
to  do  with  it.  All  I  had  to  do  with  it  was  to  ship  supplies  from  here 
to  the  agencies.  I  was  employed  by  General  Dodge  to  receive  them 
here  and  ship  them  through,  not  all  of  them,  but  a  portion  of  them — 
flour,  and  bacon,  and  corn — and  shipped  them  to  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted 
Tail  agencies. 

Q.  That  was  before  McCann  had  the  contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  now  a  contractor  for  supplying  corn  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  am  merely  shipping  it  for  Baldwin.  I  suppose  he  is 
the  contractor.  I  make  out  the  bills  of  lading  in  his  name. 

Q.  That  is  John  T.  Baldwin,  of  Council  Bluffs? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  ahout  the  Indian  affairs  at  Fort  Randall  ? 

A.  Two  years  ago  1  was  up  there ;  1  have  not  been  there  since.  I 
shipped  a  lot  of  freight  from  there.  I  commenced  shipping  from  here, 
and  then  had  orders  to  go  to  Fort  Randall  and  ship  from  there  a  couple 
of  months,  and  then  I  came  back  here  again  from  Fort  Randall  to  Spot 
ted  Tail  agency.  I  do  not  think  any  went  from  Fort  Randall  to  Red 
Cloud  agency. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  sale  of  Government  goods  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not.  All  I  had  to  do  there  was  this  :  There  was  a 
contract  for  corn,  and  that  corn  was  shipped  to  me.  I  received  it  there 
and  forwarded  it  to  the  agency.  I  had  nothing  more  to  do  with  the 
other  goods  than  to  receive  them  and  forward  them. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  or  business"? 

A.  I  have  been  a  freighter  all  my  life-time.  I  am  in  the  mail-contract 
business  now;  I  am  a  mail-contractor  now.  When  1  was  up  here  see 
ing  to  some  business  of  my  own,  Mr.  John  T.  Baldwin  asked  me  to  for 
ward  the  corn  for  him. 

Q.,  You  have  no  interest  in  the  contract? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  buy  the  corn  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  freight  it  ? 

A.  I  cause  it  to  be  forwarded  to  the  agency. 


191 

Q,  McCann  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  corn  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  as  I  understand  it. 

Q.  It  has  been  said  that  you  had  some  information  about  the  misap 
propriation  of  Government  supplies  at  Fort  Kandall. 

A.  You  have  been  misinformed;  I  know  nothing  about  it,  except  I 
received  the  corn  and  forwarded  it.  The  other  goods  I  had  nothing  to 
do  with  but  as  I  have  stated. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  irregularities  in  the  transaction  of 
the  business  of  the  Indian  Department  by  contractors,  agents,  or  any 
body  else  connected  with  it! 

A.  I  do  not  know  a  thing  in  the  world,  except  my  own  business.  I 
have  heard  a  good  deal  of  talk  for  the  last  three  years  here,  but  it  all 
comes  from  men  who  don't  know  what  they  are  talking  about.  I  know 
nothing  about  it,  but  attend  to  my  own  business.  I  delivered  over,  on 
one  occasion,  seven  thousand  pounds  of  corn  more  than  the  contract 
required,  and  I  never  got  any  receipt  for  it.  On  another  occasion  I 
delivered  to  Agent  Saville  one  thousand  pounds  more  than  the  amount 
of  the  contract,  and  1  told  him  he  must  receipt  for  it  or  I  would  take  it 
away  and  sell  it,  and  he  receipted  to  me  for  it.  It  would  have  made 
great  talk  if  I  had  taken  it  away  and  sold  it;  and  if  a  sack  had  burst 
and  spilled  a  quart  of  corn,  there  would  be  a  hundred  people  talking 
about  it. 

Q.  Were  you  in  this  vicinity  about  November  or  December  last? 

A.  I  left  about  the  20th  of  November,  perhaps  the  25th. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  condition  of  things  at  the  Bed 
Cloud  agency  at  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  was  at  Red  Cloud  in  my  life,  or  Spotted  Tail 
either. 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Tuesday,  August  24,  1874. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER, 
and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

Mr.  Marshall  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Marshall,  I  gather  the  idea  from  your  conversation 
that  you  have  had  experience  in  handling  cattle.  Can  you  tell  us 
something  in  regard  to  them'? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  had  some  experience  in  handling  cattle,  and 
have  weighed  some.  I  bought  a  herd  of  cattle  on  Laramie  plains  and 
drove  them  to  the  herd  near  the  reservation.  I  guessed  them  off  when  I 
bought  them,  and  weighed  them  when  I  delivered  them.  They  were  Texas 
cattle,  most  all  steers  from  three  to  four  years  old,  mostly  three  years 
old.  They  averaged,  I  think,  1,048  pounds  or  1,038,  I  am  not  certain 
which.  They  were  a  very  fine  lot  of  cattle.  It  was  late  in  October, 
probably  the  loth,  when  I  started;  I  got  there  about  the  20th  of  Novem 
ber,  and  I  went  through  some  pretty  severe  storms,  too.  I  went  right 
through  South  Pass,  and  I  am  positive  the  snow  was  three  feet  deep. 
It  was  fully  three  hundred  and  fifty  miles,  and  perhaps  more.  The 
feed  was  very  scarce.  I  drove  them  at  a  pretty  rapid  gait,  but  took  as 
good  care  of  them  as  I  could  under  the  circumstances.  These  steers 
were  about  an  average  of  what  they  term  beef-cattle  here.  I  bought 


192 

them  for  beef-cattle  and  picked  them  out  of  a  herd  of  probably  two 
thousand  head  on  the  prairie.  I  did  not  pick  them  as  closely  as  I 
might  have  done  in  the  corral,  but  I  picked  them  as  close  as  I  could  on 
the  prairie  from  wild  cattle.  I  started  with  five  hundred,  but  I  lost 
three  on  the  road  that  strayed  off. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  When  you  were  in  before  I  asked  you  some  questions  about  the 
sale  of  some  Indian  goods  at  Fort  Randall. 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  the  sale  of  goods  at  that  place.  I 
know  Doctor  Carrier  there;  I  have  never  made  any  statement  to  him 
about  anything  of  that  kind;  I  might  have  told  him  just  what  I  have 
said  to  you,  about  some  very  small  amount  which  Major  Howard  asked 
me  to  collect  for  him.  There  was  a  time  there,  in  two  or  three  instances, 
that  the  freighters  got  out  of  goods,  and  Major  Howard  let  them  have 
some;  but  it  did  not  amount  to  very  much,  not  more  than  $100  in  the 
four  instances. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  you  never,  except  in  those  instances,  had  knowl 
edge  of  the  sale  of  Indian  goods  or  supplies  by  any  agent  or  officer  of 
the  Government. 

A.  I  never  have,  sir,  except  in  those  instances;  I  never  knew  any 
thing  about  it;  I  would  not  have  known  about  that,  but  Major  Howard 
let  the  traders  have  some  goods  and  they  did  not  have  the  money  to 
pay  for  them,  and  he  asked  me  to  collect  it. 

Q.  Have  you  at  any  time  known  of  the  exchange  of  goods  between 
the  agent  and  trader,  or  of  the  loaning  of  supplies  by  the  Indian  agent 
to  the  trader,  to  be  returned  in  kind  ? 

A.  I  never  have.  I  have  never  heard  of  such  a  thing  being  done.  I 
don't  remember  ever  having  said  anything  to  Doctor  Carrier  about  it. 
I  might  have  told  him  of  those  few  things  which  I  spoke  of  just  now  ; 
it  was  stuff  which  they  had  got  out  of  and  had  to  have;  and  there  were 
not  more  than  four  instances  of  that  kind,  and  it  was  not  more  than 
$25  or  $30  each  time. 

Q.  How  much  corn  is  there  at  the  agency? 

A.  Here  is  iny  bill  of  lading;  it  is  792  sacks  of  corn,  weighing  103,740 
pounds. 

SIDNEY,  NEBR.,  July  4,  1875. 

Received,  in  apparent  good  order,  from  J.  T.  Baldwin,  articles  marked  and  numbered 
as  billed,  by  James* J.  May,  which  he  agrees  to  deliver  in  like  good  order  at  the  Red 
Cloud  agency,  to  the  Indian  agent,  he  to  receipt  for  said  articles  on  the  delivery  of  the 
same  at  his  agency. 

In  witness  whereof  I,  J.J.May,  have  affirmed  to  three  bills  of  lading,  all  of  this 
tenor  and  date,  one  of  which  to  be  accomplished,  the  others  to  stand  void. 

> 
U.  S.  Indian  Agent. 

I  can  explain  that.  It  appears  that  the  Department  and  Dr.  Saville 
were  in  a  hurry  for  some  corn  before  the  1st  of  July,  on  this  year's  con 
tract;  they  requested  Baldwin  to  make  a  shipment  of  corn  because 
they  were  out,  and  when  we  came  to  ship  that  corn  there  had  been  no 
inspector  appointed.  Captain  Eskridge  had  not  been  appointed,  but  a 
few  days  alter  that  corii  was  shipped  he  got  his  orders  to  come  to  Sid 
ney  and  inspect  the  corn.  Baldwin  told  me  to  ship  that  corn,  and  if 
there  was  any  inspector  there  to  have  it  inspected,  and  if  not  to  let  it  go 
anyhow,  and  that  is  the  way  it  got  there;  we  have  no  receipt  for  it. 
Whenever  there  is  any  arrangement  for  some  one  to  inspect  it  there  we 
expect  to  get  receipts  for  it.  We  shipped  that  from  Sidney,  in  wagons 
which  we  hired  for  that  purpose,  and  we  have  receipts  from  the  con 
tractor  for  carrying  it  there. 


193 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  I  see  that  the  rate  has  been  put  at  $1.35  per  hundred  pounds.  Is 
that  the  usual  rate  from  Sidney  to  Bed  Cloud? 

A.  Well,  that  is  a  little  high;  I  can  get  it  done  now  for  $1.20.  The 
price  of  freights  depends  upon  the  amount  of  transportation;  sometimes 
it  is  scarcer,  and  is  therefore  higher.  I  think  the  Department  is  more 
to  blame  for  that  corn  being  there  than  any  one  else,  because  they 
wanted  the  corn  shipped,  but  appointed  no  inspector. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Saturday,  July  31,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  W.  B.  DODDRIDGE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.    You  reside  at  Cheyenne? 

Answer.  STes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  business  here  ? 

A.  I  am  the  agent  for  the  Kansas  Pacific  and  Union  Pacific  Railroad 
Companies. 

Q.  Freight  agent  ? 

A.  Freight  and  passenger. 

Q.  State  if  there  are  any  cars  of  freight  here  at  this  time  consigned 
to  D.  J.  McCann  for  Agent  Saville,  at  Red  Cloud  ? 

A.  There  are  quite  a  number  of  cars  here  for  McCann ;  part  of  them 
are  for  Agent  Saville  at  Red  Cloud,  and  part  of  them  are  for  Agent  How 
ard,  at  Spotted  Tail. 

Q.  How  long  have  they  been  here  f 

A.  Well,  they  have  been  coming  ever  since  about  the  1st  of  the 
month,  (July,)  or  before  that.  They  have  been  stringing  along  through 
the  month  from  day  to  day,  and  some  came  in,  I  believe,  this  morning. 

By  Mr.  KARRIS  : 
Q.  How  many  are  there  in  all  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  exactly  the  number,  but  I  should  judge  perhaps 
there  may  be  twenty  car-loads. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  They  have  not  been  unloaded  I 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  freight  remains  in  the  cars  9 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  the  charges  been  paidf 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  goods  are  held  for  the  payment  of  freight  and  charges! 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  there  any  charges  for  detention  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  for  each  car  per  day  ? 
A.  Five  dollars  per  day. 

Q.  Which  you  have  to  get  your  pay  for  before  the  goods  can  be  de 
livered? 

13  IF 


194 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  goods  stand  as  security  for  the  charges. 

Q.  State  if  this  is  the  first  instance  in  which  goods  consigned  to  these 
agencies  have  been  detained  here  for  non-payment  of  freight  ? 

A.  It  is  the  first  instance  that  has  come  under  my  supervision.  I 
have  only  been  here  since  the  1st  of  June.  There  may  have  been  some 
before  I  came.  The  freight  that  came  here  in  June  for  the  agency 
was  received,  the  charges  were  paid  promptly,  and  the  goods  were  taken 
away. 

Q.  Do  the  way-bills  show  what  these  cars  are  loaded  with  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  allow  us  to  look  at  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  will  send,  and  have  them  copied. 


TESTIMONY  OF  N.  J.  O'BKIEN. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  business? 

Answer.  I  ana  sheriff  of  Laramie  County,  Wyoming  Territory. 

Q.  Mr.  O'Brien,  I  find  on  the  books  of  the  Government  store-keeper 
that  some  time  in  August  last  year  it  appears  that  there  was  some  flour 
that  was  passed  through  the  store-keeper's  hands,  in  some  Avay  or  other, 
for  the  delivery  of  wrhich  you  were  the  agent  of  Mr.  Marti u.  Tell  us  how 
that  was. 

A.  I  was  Mr.  Martin's  agent  to  see  that  the  flour  was  forwarded. 
Some  flour  was  to  be  shipped  here  from  Omaha  and  some  from  Kansas 
City,  I  believe  ;  it  came  from  the  East  and  the  South,  at  any  rate.  A 
portion  of  this  flour  was  for  Dr.  Irwiu's  agency,  (the  Shoshone  agency,) 
and  had  to  be  inspected  here.  What  was  condemned  I  generally  put  in 
his  (French's)  warehouse.  The  balance  of  the  flour  was  shipped  on  to 
Dr.  Irwin  ;  sometimes  two  car-loads  came  in,  and  a  portion  of  it  would 
be  condemned.  Colonel  Long  was  the  inspector.  A  portion  of  this  con 
demned  flour  that  was  put  in  the  warehouse,  I  think  it  came  from  Omaha. 

Q.  Was  this  warehouse  used  at  that  time  by  the  Government  store 
keeper  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  then  with  the  condemned  flour  ? 

A.  By  instructions  of  Mr.  Martin,  I  sold  nearly  three  hundred  sacks 
to  Mr.  Athorp.  I  cannot  tell  exactly  how  many  sacks  I  did  sell :  it  was 
about  three  hundred — probably  more,  and  probably  less. 

Q.  Was  there  any  of  that  flour  at  any  time  in  your  possession,  offi 
cially,  under  any  writ  or  execution  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  was  simply  acting  as  agent  for  John  H.  Martin,  of  Den 
ver,  to  look  after  his  flour,  to  see  what  was  condemned  was  taken  care 
of  and  what  was  passed  went  on  to  its  destination.  That  is  all  I  had  to 
do  with  it  whatever. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  flour  which  was  received  here  for  Eed 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  was  put  up  in  double  sacks  j  I  mean, 
two  sacks  around  it  ? 

A.  I  have  never  seen  any  with  two  sacks  around  it ;  it  was  all  in  a 
plain,  white  sack — all  that  I  have  handled. 

A.  Was  it  all  branded  "  Indian  Department  Flour  ?w 

A.  I  could  not  say  for  certain,  sir.  There  was  a  cross  put  on  the  end 
of  each  sack  of  all  that  was  condemned,  and  all  that  was  passed  was 
marked  with  a  stencil-plate,  u  Inspected,"  and  the  initials  of  Colonel 


195 

Long  put  after  the  word  "  inspected,"  or  the  initials  of  his  chief  clerk. 
Mr.  Coakley  was  chief  clerk  for  Colonel  Long,  and  is  considered  one  of 
the  best  judges  of  flour  in  the  country.  He  is  an  old  mill-man  and  un 
derstands  flour.  I  am  no  judge  of  flour  myself,  except  when  it  is  made 
up  into  bread.  Some  flour  that  came  from  Omaha  was  branded  "  In 
spected  by  Barclay  White,"  and  that  was  re-inspected  here  by  Mr.  Long. 
All  the  flour  that  I  handled  had  only  one  white  muslin  sack  5  I  never 
have  seen  a  double  sack. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  weight  of  these  sacks? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  weighed  them ;  I  suppose  they  weighed  ninety- 
six  pounds. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  there  was  only  one  sack  around  the  flour;  flour  is 
usually  put  up  in  double  sacks — two  sacks  together? 

A.  There  may  have  been  two  muslin  sacks  around  the  flour;  when  I 
say  it  was  in  single  sacks,  I  have  in  mind  the  double  sacks  we  used  to 
have  in  the  Army;  the  outer  one  was  a  sort  of  gunny  or  burlap  around 
the  inside  sack. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  State  what  became  of  this  condemned  flour  ? 

A.  I  sold  the  most  of  it  to  Mr.  Athorp,  and  he  sent  the  most  of  it 
around  the  country  in  small  quantities  to  different  people,  and  tried  to 
sell  it  out  five  or  six  sacks  at  a  time,  but  he  could  not;  he  peddled  it 
out. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  was  used  for  human  food,  or  for  feeding 
cattle  'I 

A.  it  was  used  for  human  food;  used  by  those  ranchmen  and  stock- 
growers  on  the  plains.  I  know  Mr.  Athorp  told  me  he  used  some  of  it, 
and  it  was  very  good  flour. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  HAMMOND. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? 

Answer.  I  reside  at  this  place,  (Cheyenne.) 

Q.  What  is  your  business  ? 

A.  1  am  deputy  United  States  surveyor. 

Q.  State  if  you  measured  the  distance  from  here  to  the  Bed  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When? 

A.  Well,  it  was  last  November — November,  1874;  I  do  not  remember 
the  exact  date.  I  handed  a  certified  report  to  the  county  commissioner 
which  shows  the  distance  to  all  intermediate  stations  between  here  and 
the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  distance  from  here  to  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  what  is  it  ? 

A.  It  is  145J  miles. 

Q.  That  is  by  which  route  ? 

A.  That  is  by  the  old  agency  route  ;  I  crossed  the  river  at  Nicholas 
Janis's. 

Q.  Is  that  the  route  the  freight  is  hauled  over? 

A.  1  think  not.  I  think  the  freight-teams  cross  the  river,  about  seven 
or  eight  miles  below. 


196 

Q.  You  do  not  know  where  these  freight-trains  do  cross! 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  understand  that  they  occasionally  go  over  on  the  other 
road,  (the  road  I  surveyed,)  which  is  the  route  traveled  by  the  United 
States  mail.  I  supposed  they  would  go  the  shortest  way,  and  upon 
inquiry  I  understood  that  was  the  nearest  road. 

Q.  That  is,  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  the  present  Red  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  Yes.  sir;  to  the  present  Eed  Cloud  agency  by  the  way  of  the  old 
agency. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Is  it  a  good  road  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  reason  why  the  freight-wagons  going  there 
crossed  the  stream  at  a  different  point  from  where  you  did? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  believe  there  is  said  to  be  a  better  ford  there  at  times. 

Q.  If  they  crossed  seven  or  eight  miles  below  where  you  did,  would 
that  lengthen  the  route  much  ? 

A.  I  should  think  not,  from  the  general  direction,  inasmuch  as  we 
bear  to  the  east. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  route  over  which  Mr.  McCann  sends  his  goods 
from  here  to  Ked  Cloud  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  farther  than  the  Platte  River. 

Q.  Did  you  measure  the  same  route  to  the  Platte  River  which  he  uses? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  exactly ;  he  crossed  the  river  seven  or  eight  miles 
below  the  old  agency. 

Q.  His  route,  as  you  understand  it,  is  something  nearer? 

A.  It  is  said  to  be  something  farther. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 


TESTIMONY  OF  RICHARD  DUNN. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question.  Mr.  Dunn,  what  is  your  business? 
Answer.  Freighting. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  business? 
A.  About  fifteen  years. 

Q.  Have  you  been  doing  it  here  at  this  point? 
A.  No,  sir.       . 
Q.  Where? 
A.  On  the  Platte. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  freighting  from  here? 
A.  I  guess  about  three  years,  likely. 
Q.  Have  you  a  contract  with  Mr.  McCann  for  freighting? 
A.  I  had  last  year. 

Q.  How  many  teams  and  wagons  have  you  ? 

A.  I  have  six  of  my  own.     There  were  nine  running  with  me  last 
year  •  I  hired  the  others. 

Q.  Your  train  consisted  of  nine  teams  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  oxen  do  you  have  to  each  team  ? 

A.  From  five  to  six  yoke. 

Q.  Did  you  carry  the  goods  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


197 

Q.  And  to  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  Not  to  Spotted  Tail.     I  did  not  go  to  Spotted  Tail  last  season. 

Q.  Where  do  you  load  at  this  end  ? 

A.  Generally  here,  or  at  Camp  Carling. 

Q.  What  were  you  paid  per  hundred  pounds? 

A.  One  dollar  and  a  half,  ($1.50.) 

Q.  Did  you  haul  any  freight  back  ? 

A.  Sometimes  I  had  some  hides  back. 

Q.  Anything  else? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  For  whom  did  you  bring  back  the  hides  ? 

A.  Sometimes  for  Walter. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Walter  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  who  he  is. 

Q.  Is  he  a  trader  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  understood  he  was  a  trader  at  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  other  freight  back  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Not  at  any  time  last  year  ? 

A.  No  time  last  year;  I  always  came  back  empty,  unless  I  was  loaded 
with  hides. 

Q.  Did  you  freight  in  the  winter  ? 

A.  Not  much  last  winter. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  receive  per  hundred  pounds  last  winter  ? 

A.  Well,  I  believe  $1.50,  all  the  year  around,  if  I  recollect  right. 

Q.  What  are  you  receiving  this  year  If 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  do  freighting  for  him  (McCanu)  up  to  the  last  of  June, 
this  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  had  $1.50  per  hundred  pounds  for  freighting  from  here 
to  Ked  Cloud,  up  to  the  last  of  June,  last  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  have  you  carried  this  year  since  the  first  of  July. 

A.  I  would  have  to  look  over  my 

Q.  How  many  trips  have  you  made  in  July? 

A.  Two  trips  up. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  Mr.  McCaiin  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  made  a  bargain  with  any  one  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  employed  you  since  the  first  of  July  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  have  hauled  any  since  the  first  of  July;  that 
is  the  time  my  contract  was  up. 

Q.  Then  you  have  not  made  two  trips  this  month  ? 

A.  Not  this  month ;  this  spring,  I  mean. 

Q.  So  you  have  now  no  contract  for  carrying  goods  for  Mr.  McCann  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  In  going  from  here  to  the  Ked  Cloud  agency  with  your  freight  - 
wagons,  which  road  do  you  travel  I 

A.  The  lower  road. 

Q.  Is  it  farther  from  here  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  to  go  by  the  mail- 
route,  than  to  go  by  the  way  you  usually  travel  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is.  You  cannot  haul  any  freight  on  the  mail-road  to 
do  any  good ;  you  could  haul  a  little,  perhaps. 

Q.  Is  the  road  you  travel  longer  than  the  stage-route? 


198 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  About  how  much  longer  do  you  think  it  is? 

A.  I  don't  know.     They  have  been  surveying  it ;  I  could  not  tell ;  it 
would  be  no  use  for  me  to  give  my  idea  of  the  distance. 

Q.  Do  your  wagons  usually  come  back  that  way  ? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  generally  come  back  the  same  road  I  go. 

Q.  The  empty  wagons  could  come  back  that  way? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  An  empty  wagon  could.  There  is  about  eight  miles 
you  have  got  to  double  on  a  stretch  there,  and  it  is  sandy,  and  the 
horses  would  mire  to  their  bellies,  except  when  it  is  frozen.  With  a 
light  wagon  you  can  go  all  right,  but  when  you  put  seventy  or  eighty 
hundred- weight  on  a  wagon  you  cannot  do  it. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  How  far  do  you  call  it,  among  you  freighters,  from  here  to  Eed 
Cloud  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  they  call  the  distance. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  freighters  do  not  know  the  distance  ? 

A.  There  are  some  freighters  in  this  country  you  could  not  under 
stand  any  more  than  if  they  talked  Dutch. 

Q.  You  have  traveled  it  a  great  many  times? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  not  form  your  own  opinion  as  to  the  distance  ? 

A.  I  have. 

Q.  How  far  is  it,  in  your  opinion  ? 

A.  About  one  hundred  and  eighty  miles  from  here  to  Eed  Cloud  to 
go  by  the  way  you  can  haul  freight. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  long  does  it  take  to  make  the  trip  ? 

A.  About  a  month,  going  and  coming,  in  good  weather. 

Q.  How  long  would  it  take  in  going? 

A.  About  fifteen  days  if  a  man  is  not  delayed  in  crossing  the  Platte. 

Q.  And  then  how  long  does  it  take  you  to  unload  ? 

A.  About  a  day  or  a  little  over.  It  is  all  owing  to  the  kind  of 
freight. 

Q.  Do  you  stop  to  rest  your  teams  ? 

A.  They  get  hungry ;  they  have  not  much  feed  there;  they  don't  get 
much  rest. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  whether,  at  any  time  since  you  have  been  con 
tracting  to  carry  supplies  for  Mr.  McCann  to  Eed  Cloud  agency,  he  has 
ever  guaranteed  you  against  loss  by  Indian  depredations  ? 

A.  Not  any,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  his  having  guaranteed  any  freighter  against  such 
loss? 

A.  I  don't  know  that;  I  have  heard  some  talks  of  it. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  are  concerned,  you  have  had  to  run  your  own  risks 
of  Indians  attacking  you  or  taking  your  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  provided  anybody  to  accompany  you  to  protect  you? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  at  one  time.  We  had  to  lay  over  on  the  Platte  for 
a  little  while  waiting  for  something  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Did  he  protect  you  ? 

A.  It  was  his  protection,  or  the  protection  of  somebody  else ;  I  don't 
know^  who  they  were  ordered  by. 

Q.  I  mean  whether  or  not  he  furnished  men  to  go  with  you  to  keep 
the  Indians  off? 


199 

A.  You  want  to  know  whether  he  furnished  men  from  here? 

Q.  Yes,  or  from  anywhere. 

A.  The  supposition  is  there  was  such  a  thing  done. 

Q.  Have  YOU  ever  seen  such  men  1 

A.  I  saw  lots  of  men;  they  didn't  afford  me  any  protection  ;  the  sup 
position  is  that  he  did,  because  I  was  waiting  there  on  the  Platte  with 
freight. 

Q.  I  mean  did  he  protect  you  against  Indian  raids  or  Indian  attack; 
do  you  know  of  his  famishing  or  agreeing  to  furnish  anybody  to  protect 
you? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  believe  he  agreed  to  at  one  time,  when  there  was  a 
man  or  two  killed. 

Q.  Did  he  furnish  such  protection  ? 

A.  Men  came  there ;  I  never  asked  the  question  who  furnished  them. 

Q.  If  you  lost  any  cattle  did  you  have  to  stand  the  loss  yourself  ? 

A.  Yes,  except  I  got  it  put  in  my  bill — having  lost  a  pony. 

Q.  Did  McCann  ever  pay  you  for  it  ? 

A.  Not  yet ;  he  has  promised  in  a  kind  of  a  way  that  he  would. 

Q.  Did  you  lose  the  pony  by  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that  ? 

A.  About  two  years  ago. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  promised  to  furnish  you  any  protection  from  here  to 
Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  In  case  that  it  would  be  required,  E  believe  he  has. 

Q.  In  case  it  was  needed? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  lost  any  cattle  by  Indians  Avhile  you  were  going 
from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Not  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  whether  you  have  an  arrangement  with  McCann 
by  which  he  guarantees  you  against  loss  by  Indian  depredations  ? 

A.  Nothing  but  verbally.     He  said  something  to  that  effect ;  I  don't 
remember  now  what  it  was.     I  didn't  pay  much  attention  to  it  at  that 
time,  because  it  was  not  needed. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  said  you  had  no  arrangement  with  him  for  getting  pay  for 
your  pony  except  you  put  it  in  your  bill ;  your  bill  against  whom  ? 

A.  Against  the  Indian  Department,  I  suppose. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  Mr.  McCann  having  not  promised  to  pay  you,  but 
sort  of  promised 

A.  Well,  it  was  verbally  ;   like  anybody  else  would  talk. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you  he  would  do  in  case  of  the  pony  you  lost  1 

A.  The  pony  was  not  lost  on  McCaun's  contract  at  all. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  haven't  lost  any  cattle  since  you  have  been  freighting  for 
McCann  ? 

A.  No.  sir  ;  1  never  lost  a  hoof,  except  what  died. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  lying  on  the  Platte,  how  long  did  you  have 
to  wait  ? 

A.  O,  well,  going,  1  was  wandering  through  the  Platte,  back  and  for 
ward,  I  guess  about  a  week  altogether.  The  Platte  freezes  over  in  the 
winter.  It  is  difficult  to  cross  the  Platte  in  the  winter. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that,  while  you  were  waiting  there,  some 
men  carne  along. 


200 

A.  O,  yes;  some  soldiers  and  some  citizens.  I  believe  McCann's 
outfit  was  loaded  with  ammunition  then,  and  they  were  looking  for 
McCann's  outfit,  to  stop  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JUDGE  JOSEPH  M.  CAREY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Judge,  you  understand  the  object  for  which  this  commis 
sion  was  appointed  ;  if  you  can  give  us  any  information  that  will  enable 
us  to  find  out  anything  approaching  the  real  facts  about  these  matters 
we  are  investigating,  we  would  like  to  avail  ourselves  of  it. 

Answer.  I  expect  that  I  am  like  many  others,  in  this :  that  I  have 
heard  constantly  a  great  deal  that  has  been  said  in  this  community 
about  these  matters,  but  it  is  not  evidence,  it  is  only  hearsay.  At  a 
very  recent  term  of  the  court  in  the  western  part  of  the  Territory, 
where  they  were  prosecuting  a  man  for  the  sale  of  liquors  at  the  Sho- 
shone  reservation,  the  Indian  agent  was  over  at  court  and  in  my  room 
a  good  deal,  and  I  believe  him  (Dr.  Irwin)  to  be  a  thoroughly  honest 
man,  and  that  he  has  taken  a  great  deal  of  interest  in  the  Indians.  He 
told  me  something  about  Indian  matters  ;  and,  although  it  made  a  kind 
of  an  impression  on  my  mind,  that  impression  passed  away.  It  was 
about  something  he  discovered  at  this  warehouse,  (French's  warehouse,) 
that  the  flour  for  the  Sioux  Indians  which  was  inspected  by  French 
was  bad  ;  he  told  me  he  sent  a  telegram  immediately  to  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  AfTairs,  or  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  telling  him  it 
was  an  outrage  on  the  Indians  to  have  such  flour  sent  to  them,  and  he 
said  that  the  matter  was  promptly  rectified ;  that  the  new  inspector 
condemned  the  flour.  He  said  to  me  it  seemed  very  strange  that  they 
permitted  such  things  to  be  done  at  the  agency.  He  told  me  that  the 
same  contractors  were  filling  the  beef-contract  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency; 
that  he  said  to  the  man  who  brought  up  the  beef,  "  How  much  do  these 
cattle  weigh  ?"  and  his  answer  was,  "  These  cattle  will  weigh,  according 
to  the  way  we  turn  them  in  there,  about  1,100  pounds  ;"  that  he  then  went 
to  Captain  Torry,  an  Army  officer,  and  asked  him  to  go  out  and  esti 
mate  the  weight  and  seal  up  his  estimate  ;  that  he  asked  J.  K.  Moore 
(post-trader)  to  do  the  same;  that  he  then  went  out  himself  and  made 
his  own  estimate  of  their  weight ;  that  he  came  back  and  took  their 
estimates  out  and  opened  them,  and  took  the  average ;  and  I  think  he 
said  that  the  average  made  about  800  pounds ;  that  he  told  the  man 
George,  "I  will  receive  the  cattle  at  that  weight,  and  I  will  receive 
them  at  no  other  estimate,"  and  he  finally  turned  them  in,  and  a  voucher 
was  immediately  made  out  for  that  amount ;  and  he  said  that  in  a  small 
amount  of  cattle  they  fell  short  some  15,000  pounds,  and  he  immediately 
reported  it  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  told  him  not  to  pay  the 
amount  charged,  as  the  actual  weights  fell  short  that  much.  These 
things  came  under  the  personal  observation  of  Dr.  Irwin  at  his  own 
agency,  except  about  the  flour. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  understood  that  the  cattle  which  were  turned  in  there,  and 
whose  weight  he  had  estimated,  were  turned  in  by  the  same  man  who 
was  supplying  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ¥ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  man  said  that  he  had  turned  them  in  at  Red  Cloud  at 
an  average  of  1,100  pounds? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  about  that.      I  think  early  this  spring  a  freighter   by 


201 

the  name  of  Athorp  was  owing  our  firm  something,  and  he  said  he  would 
like  us  to  take  some  flour  for  horse-feed ;  he  said  it  was  furnished  by  a 
man  by  the  name  of  Martin;  I  asked  him,  "  Is  it  good  flour?"  "  O,  no,'7 
he  said ;  "  it  is  not  fit  to  use.  I  do  not  consider  it  good  for  food.  I  will 
sell  it  to  you  very  low."  He  said  he  did  not  consider  it  good  except  for 
horse-feed ;  that  he  was  selling  some  of  it  for  that  purpose.  I  asked 
Mr.  Whipple  about  it,  and  he  told  me  it  was  worth  nothing;  that  he 
had  taken  a  little  of  it,  and  he  did  not  want  any  more  of  it;  he  did  not 
consider  it  a  saleable  article.  Mr.  Whipple  is  a  grocer  in  this  place,  a 
very  fine  man,  and  a  man  who  felt  very  bitter  about  this  contract  that 
was  awarded  to  Mr.  McCann.  Mr.  Whipple  was  the  lowest  bidder, 
and  his  bonds  were  satisfactory,  to  deliver  the  goods  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency ;  but  the  contract  was  awarded  to  Mr.  McCann,  because  Mc 
Cann  went  outside  of  the  advertisement,  and  bid  to  transport  the  freight 
from  and  to  railroad  points. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  main  thing  I  wanted  to  inquire  of  you  about  was  Texas  cat 
tle  ;  about  the  general  average  weight  of  Texas  cattle,  such  as  they 
call  "  through  cattle,"  cattle  which  they  drive  up  from  Texas  in  the 
spring  and  sell  here  in  the  fall. 

A.  What  we  would  call  Texas  beef  in  this  country,  have  been 
driven  up  here  before  that;  they  have  been  here  at  least  one  year.  I 
consider  that  a  good  Texas  beef  would  weigh  850  pounds  gross.  We 
have  a  large  herd  ;  buy  cattle  and  steers  that  are  driven  up  here,  and 
we  feed  them  for  one  year — that  is,  we  graze  them — and  they  improve  in 
every  way,  and  we  get  an  extra  price  for  them.  I  have  had  good  op 
portunities  to  judge  of  the  weights  of  cattle ;  but  there  is  a  man  here 
in  town  who  can  tell  you  to  almost  within  a  pound  of  what  average 
Texas  cattle  would  weigh.  I  mean  Mr.  Brown,  of  Chicago,  who  is  here 
now.  I  had  a  talk  with  him  this  morning  about  the  weight  of  cattle, 
and  I  saw  that  he  agreed  with  me  in  my  estimates.  We  had  a  return 
to-day  from  a  train-load  of  cattle  which  we  had  shipped  to  Chicago,  and 
which  arrived  there  on  Wednesday  morning.  They  were  picked  out  of 
a  large  herd,  and  many  of  them  had  been  in  this  part  of  the  country 
for  two  years — we  call  them  four-year  olds — and  the  average  gross 
weight  of  the  steers  in  the  Chicago  market  was  950  pounds  ;  they  may 
have  shrunk  probably  50  pounds  on  the  journey.  Those  were  cattle 
that  were  northern-wintered,  and  had  improved  considerably.  There 
were  three  car-loads  of  cows,  and  they  averaged  825  pounds  a  head  at 
Chicago.  These  cattle  were  picked  out  of  a  large  herd  of  3,000.  If  we 
should  pick  out  100  head  we  could  get  an  average  of  1,000,  or  1,050 
pounds ;  but  they  would  have  to  be  very  large  cattle.  We  pick 
steers  out  of  our  herd  for  butchers  to  kill,  and  they  usually  net  on  the 
block  from  400  to  500  pounds,  and  some  few  of  them  would  go  higher. 
I  am  speaking  now  of  the  average ;  some  weigh  a  good  deal  more. 
Cows  that  would  net  450  pounds  would  weigh  about  900  pounds  gross. 

Q.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  some  figures.  In  the  official  state 
ment,  on  file  in  the  Treasury  Department,  showing  the  number  and 
weight  of  beef-cattle  delivered  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  fiscal 
year  ending  June  30,  1875,  as  appears  by  the  receipts  of  J.  J.  Saville, 
the  agent,  it  seems  that  there  were  delivered  on  the  14th  of  November 
701  head,  weighing  731,485  pounds,  an  average  of  considerable  over 
1,000  pounds;  on  December  3,  597  head,  weighing  621,447  pounds,  an 
average  of  considerable  over  1,000  pounds  each;  on  January  1,  641 
head,  weighing  668,578  pounds,  an  average  of  considerable  over  1,000 
pounds;  on  February  1,  437  head,  weighing  451,203  pounds,  an  average 
of  considerable  over  1,000  pounds;  on  the  17th  of  February,  467  head, 


202 

weighing  486,114  pounds,  an  average  of  nearly  1,100  pounds;  on  March 
1,  96  head,  weighing  99,303  pounds,  an  average  of  considerable  over 
1,000  pounds;  on  March  25,  539  head,  weighing  555,210  pounds,  which 
is  an  average  of  over  1,000  pounds;  on  April  1,583  head,  weighing 
589,061  pounds,  which  again  is  an  average  of  over  1,000  pounds.  Now, 
these  Texas  cattle  that  have  been  wintered  in  the  North,  and  fed  on 
grass  here  for  a  year,  and  so  improved  in  value  by  staying  here  during 
summer,  (these  through  cattle,  as  they  are  called,)  are  they  not  still 
pretty  thin? 

A.  Well,  now,  that  depends  very  much  upon  the  character  of  the 
winter.  We  find  that  cattle  driven  up  here  from  Texas  in  the  fall,  it  is 
very  rarely  that  we  could  get  any  of  them  good  enough  to  kill.  I  think 
it  is  utterly  impossible  to  get  cattle  in  the  whole  State  of  Texas  that 
would  average  as  high  as  those  weights  that  you  have  mentioned.  Very 
much  depends  upon  the  class  of  cattle  they  have  turned  in  at  the  agen 
cies.  I  do  not  know  about  what  kind  they  have  delivered.  If  they  turn 
in  yearlings  and  two-year-old  steers,  (and  I  understand  they  do,)  they 
could  not  average  anything  like  those  weights. 

Q.  From  the  1st  of  July,  1874,  to  the  25th  of  the  following  June  there 
were  delivered  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  11,511  cattle  that  weighed 
11,748,598  pounds,  which  is  considerably  over  an  average  of  1,000 
pounds  for  the  whole  number.  Now,  what  do  you  think  of  that? 

A.  That  it  is  an  impossibility.  Stock-men  here  who  have  bought  cat 
tle  here  repeatedly,  and  have  bought  from  other  stock-men  in  the  country, 
tell  me  that  such  things  are  impossible.  The  difficulty  is  this:  no  honest 
man  would  attempt  to  fill  that  contract  at  the  price;  it  would  ruin  him. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  WThat  is  the  price  of  four-year-olds  and  upwards  that  will  weigh 
a  thousand  pounds  a  head  ? 

A.  If  I  could  get  good  green  cattle  of  that  kind,  I  think  1  would  give 
825  a  head  for  all  that  I  could  get. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  being  sold  as  low  as  $18  and  $20  ? 

A.  No  good  beeves  are  sold  at  that  price.  You  can  buy  green  Texas 
cattle  at  from  $20  to  $21  a  head ;  that  is  what  they  brought  this  year. 
They  bought  the  cows  for  $12  and  the  steers  for  $20.  Mabry,  Millett 
and  Ellison  are  large  contractors.  They  have  driven  up  this  year  50,000 
head  of  cattle,  and  they  told  me  that  they  had  sold  to  the  Boslers  about 
25,000  head. 

Q.  I  understand  Mr.  Ellison  has  told  you  he  had  no  interest  in  the 
contract  except  to  sell  his  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  Boslers  agreed  to  take  his  cattle  from  him.  Now, 
here  is  a  return  which  1  have  just  received  of  a  lot  of  cattle  sold  in  Chi 
cago — 278  head  of  beeves,  weighing  264,390  pounds;  45  cows,  weighing 
37,000  pounds.  I  do  not  think  the  shrinkage  between  here  and  Chicago 
exceeded  50  pounds  a  head,  and  probably  it  would  not  be  so  much  as 
that. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  Bosler's  herds  ? 

A.  I  have  not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Bosler  says  he  can  buy  four-year-old  steers  for  $18  and  cows  for 
$12  and  yearlings  for  $7? 

A.  He  probably  can  buy  a  certain  article  at  that  price.  Mr.  Ellison 
told  me  that  Bosler  paid  $12  and  $20  for  cattle  he  bought  to  fill  this 
year's  contract. 


203 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  These  are  through  cattle,  are  they  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  were  bought  for  these  Indian  agencies  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  four-year-olds? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  are  four  year-old  steers  and  cows. 

Q.  You  do  not  get  cows  here  that  weigh  1,000  pounds,  do  you? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  cattle  could  you  find  in  this  country  which  through 
the  year  from  July  to  April,  as  turned  in,  would  average  over  a  thousand 
pounds? 

A.  Well,  you  could  find  some  American  steers  here  and  in  Colorado 
that  would  probably  be  three-quarters  Durham  j  they  are  shipped  to 
the  markets  of  the  East. 

Q.  For  what  price  could  you  furnish  such  cattle  f 

A.  Probably  $45  a  head. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  would  be  any  way  of  furnishing  through  the 
year  cattle  averaging  over  1,000  pounds,  at  less  cost  that? 

A.  1  might  get  them  lower  than  that,  but  I  doubt  it  very  much. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Mr.  J.  H.  Bosler  told  us  something  about  cattle  commissioners  or 
cattle  inspectors  appointed  under  the  law  of  Nebraska,  who  inspect  each 
drove  of  cattle  which  is  driven  into  the  State,  to  see  if  there  are  any 
cattle  belonging  to  other  herds.  Do  you  know  anything  about  such 
an  arrangement? 

A.  I  do  not ;  that  is  an  individual  arrangement.  I  think  it  is  very 
likely.  They  have  stock-associations  for  this  Territory  to  protect  the 
stock-growers.  The  cattle  get  mixed,  and  they  separate  them,  and  take 
them  to  the  range  where  they  were  raised.  There  is  a  gentleman  at 
Denver  who  could  give  you  a  good  deal  of  information  about  the  weight 
of  cattle.  His  name  is  Mr.  Bishop.  He  is  a  very  respectable  party. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  Dr.  Saville's  management  of  affairs 
at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  know  him,  1  suppose  ? 

A.  I  know  the  Doctor,  but  cannot  tell  you  anything  about  the  man 
agement  of  his  affairs.  I  know  very  little  about  the  management  of 
Indian  matters  in  this  country. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  McCann  ? 
A.  I  know  him  to  speak  to  him  when  I  see  him. 
Q.  He  has  not  been  about  here  much,  has  he  ? 

A.  He  has  been  here  some.  He  has  the  reputation  of  being  a  very 
shrewd  man. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  that  the  exact  phrase  you  would  employ  in  expressing  your  own 
views  ? 

A.  The  fact  is,  gentlemen,  I  do  not  countenance  these  wrongs  in  any 
way.  I  occupy  a  judicial  position  here,  in  which  I  have  to  determine 
the  rights  of  parties,  and  I  try  not  to  know  a  great  deal,  except  about 
my  own  business.  But  my  impression  is  that  these  things  have  been 
managed  very  badly,  and  very  much  to  the  detriment  of  this  country ; 


204 

and  public  sentiment  is  in  favor  of  mismanagement.  This  freighting 
business  amounts  to  a  good  deal  of  money  for  this  town.  Supplies  are 
bought  here  ;  the  freighters  get  their  money  here  to-day  and  spend  it 
to-night;  and  I  believe  they  have  always  been  afraid  to  say  or  do  any 
thing  against  the  Indian  contractors,  lest  they  should  move  all  this  pat 
ronage  from  town.  Mr.  Whipple,  whose  contract  was  rejected,  was  a 
man  capable  of  filling  the  contract,  and  I  think  he  was  a  thoroughly  re 
liable  and  upright  man;  but  I  suppose  he  thought  it  would  be  better 
not  to  say  anything,  because  he  lives  in  town.  I  got,  though,  as  I  told 
you  a  moment  ago,  more  information  from  Dr.  Irwin,  agent  for  the  Sho- 
shone  Indians,  than  from  any  other  person.  He  is  one  of  those  men  who, 
if  he  remained  twenty  years  in  office,  would  come  out  without  one  cent! 
He  is  a  man  who  has  no  bad  habits,  and  he  takes  a  good  deal  of  pride 
in  his  business.  But  there  are  men  who  will  tell  you  all  about  these 
matters,  if  they  are  disposed  to  do  it.  One  of  those  men  is  Mr.  Moore, 
who  lives  here  in  town.  I  look  at  this  Indian  question  differently  from 
many  people.  I  think  that  every  time  the  Indian  is  wronged  he  is  going 
to  take  the  worth  of  it  out  of  somebody  else.  If  they  take  one  head  of 
stock  from  him,  one  head  that  he  thinks  belongs  to  him,  he  is  going  to 
make  it  up  from  somebody  else,  and  hence  the  Indians  are  always  com 
mitting  depredations,  and  that  excites  the  people.  But  if  there  should 
be  some  system  by  which  the  treaties  with  the  Indians  could  be  carried 
out  to  the  very  letter,  I  believe  these  difficulties  on  the  borders  would 
cease.  I  think  the  Indians  are  disposed  to  be  peaceable,  and  I  think  it 
is  decidedly  to  the  interest  of  this  country  (notwithstanding  others  do 
not)  to  have  this  Indian  business  transacted  in  an  honest  manner.  The 
Indians  are  constantly  going  up  and  preying  upon  the  Shoshone  Indi 
ans  and  stealing  from  the  settlers  in  the  Wind  River  country,  and  they 
all  say,  "  We  are  cheated  and  wronged,  and  we  have  a  right  to  take  from 
these  Indians  when  the  whites  are  so  friendly  to  them."'  You  will  get 
the  most  reliable  information  from  the  Army  officers. 

Q.  The  contractors  are  not  very  apt  to  send  to  the  Indian  agency 
cattle  that  they  can  send  to  the  Chicago  market ! 

A.  O,  no,  sir. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Wednesday,  August  25,  1875. 
Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  CHARLES  J 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 

Judge  Cary  was  recalled. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question.  I  want  to  ask  you  some  questions  about  the  conversation 
you  have  had  with  Mr.  Ellison.  I  want  to  know  what  information  he 
has  communicated  to  you,  if  any  ? 

Answer.  Well,  I  don't  know  what  the  nature  of  Mr.  Ellison's  com 
munication  was,  whether  it  was  a  confidential  one  or  not,  but  he  said 
to  me  on  the  train  two  or  three  weeks  ago,  between  here  and  Denver, 
in  conversation  on  the  subject  of  stock,  that  they  had  sold  out,  and  he 
then  named  the  number  of  cattle  sold  to  Bosler.  He  said,  "  You  know 
Mabry  got  the  contract  this  year,  and  he  was  not  required  to  fill  it;  but 
the  Boslers,  I  believe,  gave'  the  bond  and  took  the  contract  off  his 
hands."  He  said,  "  We  made  nothing  by  it,  except  the  privilege  of  turn 
ing  in  our  cattle."  He  gave  me  the  prices,  but  I  cannot  recollect  them. 
I  think  the  prices  he  said  $11  and  $18,  or  $12  and  $20.  He  made  the 
remark  to  me  that  no  man  could  fill  the  contract  at  the  prices ;  that  he 


205 

had  got  a  good  market  for  his  cattle.  I  said.  "  You  would  not  fill  that 
contract  at  that  price,  nor  would  I."  He  said,  "  No ;  I  would  not  fill  it;" 
and  he  gave  his  explanation,  which  I  do  not  wish  to  give  here.  I  see  no 
difficulty  in  filling  a  contract  of  that  kind  if  you  can  get  cattle  that  would 
weigh  the  amount  for  $18  a  head.  But  I  will  agree  to  give  $24  for  every 
Texas  steer  averaging  the  weight  that  those  cattle  are  said  to  weigh  ;  I 
mean  cattle  that  are  the  right  kind  for  any  market,  in  this  city  or  Chicago, 
or  to  fill  Army  contracts.  I  will  give  $24  for  that  kind  ;  I  would  have 
agreed  to  give  $24  for  them  on  the  23d  of  last  April. 

Q.  Suppose  yon  can  buy  Texas  cows  for  $12  apiece  which  will  weigh 
900  pounds,  and  Texas  steers  at  $20  apiece,  which  weigh  1.000 
pounds,  would  you  see  any  difficulty  in  filling  the  Indian  contract  if 
you  wrere  going  to  get  $2.47  per  100  pounds  when  they  are  delivered  ? 

A.  You  could  fill  it,  but  it  would  be  at  a  small  profit. 

Q.  Take  a  mixed  herd  of  20,000  Texas  cattle,  bought  at  the  prices 
which  Mabry  says  he  paid  for  them,  what  would  it  cost  to  hold  and  de 
liver  them,  providing  they  were  kept  on  the  public  domain,  where  pas 
turage  is  free  ? 

A.  Our  experience  in  the  business  is  this,  that  we  cannot  take  care  of 
these  cattle  in  this  country — that  is,  herd  them,  for  the  year,  for 
much  less  than  $2  a  head.  I  think  last  year  I  got  it  down  to  $1.90.  I 
have  had  between  6,000  and  7,000  in  a  herd  this  last  year.  They  don't 
count  at  all  for  the  loss,  and  the  loss  is  2  or  3  per  cent,  in  conse 
quence  of  cattle  straying  and  dying.  A  man  who  can  buy  cattle  at  the 
prices  you  refer  to,  of  course  he  would  make  some  money  out  of  it — 
perhaps  $2  a  head. 

Q.  Would  not  his  proportion  of  profit  be  much  larger  on  his  cows 
than  on  his  oxen? 

A.  It  would  be  if  they  weighed  900  pounds.  I  cannot  get  cattle  by 
actual  weight  to  weigh  anything  like  that  amount.  I  shipped  cattle  to 
Chicago  to-day  ;  many  of  them  have  been  wintered  here  two  years  and 
all  of  them  twelve  mouths;  and  if  my  returns  should  show  that  they 
would  weigh  1,000  pounds  in  Chicago,  I  would  be  perfectly  satisfied. 

Q.  Has  Mabry  said  anything  to  you  about  selling  picked  cattle  from 
his  herd? 

A.  He  has  frequently  told  me  that  he  winters  a  lot  of  nice  steers  and 
sells  them  the  next  spring.  For  instance,  when  he  was  selling  last 
year  to  Bosler,  he  took  out  a  few  nice  steers,  to  hold  ;  and  he  sold  them 
for  $27,  and  is  now  shipping  them  East.  Mr.  Mabry  bought  about  a  thou 
sand  head  lately  for  $20,  to  hold  over  until  next  year  for  the  Chicago 
market.  Those  cattle  he  bought  were  four-year  olds. 

Q.  Have  you  known  him  to  sell  picked  cattle  from  his  herds? 

A.  No,  except  that  he  has  offered  repeatedly  to  deliver  to  us  what  is 
known  as  average  cattle,  free  from  what  are  called  scalawags,  at  a  cer 
tain  price,  and  I  only  know  as  far  a  kind  of  general  statement  in  this 
community  that  it  takes  a  poor  class  of  cattle  in  an  Indian  contract.  It 
is  known  that  cattle  come  up  from  Texas  and  are  turned  over  to  the  In 
dians,  when  the  same  thing  could  not  be  done  in  the  case  for  the  Army 
or  the  Chicago  market. 

Q.  Are  you  buying  or  selling  Texas  cattle  more  or  less? 

A.  The  only  way  we  buy  is  this:  We  buy  cattle  and  turn  them  out  on 
our  range,  and  carry  them  for  one  year,  and  a  Texas  animal  that  is 
brought  to  this  climate  and  turned  out  on  our  grass  will  improve  so  that 
you  would  scarcely  know  it  to  be  the  same  animal  in  one  year;  it  im 
proves  very  materially.  We  can  buy  cows  for  about  $12  each  this  year, 
and  by  holding  them' here  on  this  grass  during  the  winter  they  would 
be  worth  $20  or  $25  next  season.  We  can  hold  Texas  steers  also. 


206 

Q.  What  is  the  average  weight  of  four-year-old  steers  that  are  driven 
right  off  the  trail  up  from  Texas,  after  they  have  been  here  three 
months? 

A.  I  think  they  would  have  to  be  very  fine  steers  to  weigh  900  pounds. 

Q.  Why  doirt  people  around  Cheyenne  take  Indian  contracts? 

A.  If  I  had  a  desire  to  become  a  bankrupt  I  would  take  that  contract. 
I  say  no  man  can  fill  it  at  that  price — at  $2.47  per  hundred.     The  mili 
tary  contracts  are  generally  filled  by  men  in  this  part  of  the  country. 
By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  it  is  your  opinion  that  your  cattle  that  you 
sent  to  market  did  not  average  1,000  pounds? 

A.  It  is  not  only  my  opinion,  but  it  is  a  fact.  Here  are  the  returns  ; 
one  is  dated  July  28,  1875.  First,  there  were  278  cattle,  weighing 
246,390  pounds,  and  45  cows,  weighing  37,000  pounds. 

Another  return,  date  August  18,  is  as  follows  : 

Pounds. 

76  steers,  weighing , 73,  550 

97  steers,  weighing ' 59,  470 

21  steers,  weighing 20,  640 

21  steers,  weighing 19,  070 

78  steers,  weighing 73,  810 

48  cows,  weighing 42,  410 

These  were  all  about  four-year  olds — some  a  little  over,  some  a  little 
less. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Saturday,  July  31,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C. FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  COL.  ANDREW  K.  LONG. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  business? 

Answer.  Captain  and  commissary  of  subsistence,  United  States  Army ; 
brevet  lieutenant-colonel,  at  present  stationed  at  Cheyenne  depot. 

Q.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  by  his  letter  of  the  2d  of 
September,  1874,  to  you,  informed  you  that  you  were  designated  as 
secretary  of  Indian  supplies  to  be  delivered  at  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  acknowledged  the  receipt  of  it  on  the  4th  of  September, 
I  believe.  First,  I  received  a  telegram  from  General  Sheridan.  You  had 
better  take  my  letter-book  and  look  over  it  yourself.  That  letter-book 
and  these  loose  letters  take  in  the  whole  thing  from  the  beginning. 
[Witness  produces  his  letter-book  and  letters.] 

Q.  After  you  received  this  instruction  from  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  and  acknowledged  it,  you  then  provided  yourself  with  a 
stencil-plate  ? 

A.  I  prepared  that  myself. 

Q.  What  was  on  it  ? 

A.  "Inspected.  A.  K.  L.  W.  L.  C."  "A.  K.  L."  was  on  the  right- 
hand  corner;  the  u  W.  L.  C."  was  on  the  left.  The  letter  "n,"  in  the 
word  u  inspected,7?  was  upside  down. 

Q.  What  did  «  W.  L.  C."  mean? 

A.  These  are  the  initials  of  Mr.  Coakley.  I  appointed  him  to  assist 
me  in  the  performance  of  my  duties  as  an  inspector,  and  so  notified  the 


207 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  He  was  assistant  inspector  on  the  7th 
of  September.  I  notified  S.  H.  Palmer,  store-keeper  of  Indian  supplies 
at  Cheyenne,  to  furnish  me  samples  of  flour  to  be  delivered  by  J.  H. 
Martin  on  his  contract,  and  to  inform  me  of  the  presentation  by  Mr. 
Martin  of  any  flour  on  his  contract. 

Q.  Now,  Major  Long,  will  you  state  when  it  was  that  you  inspected 
the  first  flour  that  you  did  inspect  under  your  appointment  ? 

A.  I  received  this  order,  I  believe,  by  telegraph,  from  General  Sher 
idan's  headquarters — the  headquarters  of  the  Military  Division  of  the 
Missouri.  I  know  it  was  on  Sunday  we  came  down  town.  I  went  with 
Mr.  Moore,  who  had  been  employed  in  the  Indian  Department — what  is 
known  as  Colonel  French's  store-house.  I  there  met  Mr.  Palmer,  who 
wras  then  known  as  Indian  store-keeper.  I  then  asked  him  if  he  had 
any  flour  for  inspection  under  the  contract  of  J.  H.  Martin.  He  said 
quite  an  amount  had  been  shipped  by  McCann's  train,  but  that  there 
were  27  sacks  left  in  the  store-house.  I  went  and  inspected  them  my 
self,  and  1  said,  "  Don't  ship  this  flour ;  I  reject  it,  as  I  am  inspector 
here."  That  is  all  I  know  of  this  27  sacks. 

Q.  What  kind  of  flour  was  that ? 

A.  It  was  a  very  inferior  XX  flour.  Shortly  after  that,  under 
J.  H.  Martin's  contract,  there  were  two  car-loads  of  flour,  (forty-odd 
thousand  pounds.)  This  was  intended  for  the  Shoshoue  reservation. 
I  went  through  the  cars  and  inspected  it,  with  my  assistant  inspector, 
as  closely  as  I  could,  and  rejected  the  whole  amount.  The  samples  I 
took  of  the  flour  which  I  had  inspected  as  it  lay  in  the  car  were  such  as 
to  justify  me  in  my  opinion  in  rejecting  the  whole  car-load.  Then  after 
ward  it  was  piled  in  tiers  in  the  car,  because  they  said  the  Indians 
required  it  very  much  there,  (the  Shoshone  reservation,  Dr.  Irwin's 
agency.)  And  then  part  was  received,  and  part  was  rejected  and  sent 
over  to  the  store-house. 

Q.  That  which  you  rejected  you  did  not  put  any  mark  on? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  afterward,  when  I  got  into  the  practice  of  it,  I  used 
to  jam  the  brush  on  the  outside  of  the  sacks  so  that  they  could  not 
bring  them  up  again.  Mr.  Palmer,  the  store-keeper,  came  to  me  on  the 
platform  in  front  of  the  Railroad  House,  near  the  telegraph-office,  and 
said,  "Is  there  no  possible  way  that  you  will  allow  this  flour  to  pass?" 
I  took  it  for  an  insult.  I  said,  "  No,  sir;  not  unless  it  is  up  to  the 
sample;  no  flour  can  pass  me  unless  it  is  up  to  the  sample.  The  sample 
is  poor  enough,  God  knows." 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  sample? 

A.  I  got  it  from  Mr.  Palmer.  He  said  it  came  from  the  Indian  De 
partment. 

Q.  The  sample  itself  was  very  poor  flour? 

A.  Very  poor  flour,  sir  ;  nobody  can  furnish  good  flour  at  $2.50  a  hun 
dred  pounds.  It  stands  to  reason  that  they  can't.  After  1  had  inspected 
and  rejected  that  amount,  I  inspected  a  good  deal  more — my  assistant 
and  myself— and  it  came  up  to  a  better  grade,  although  some  was  reject 
ed  after  that.  That  is  some  of  the  Martin  contract.  That  was  in  1874. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  about  the  date  of  this  first  inspection 
of  flour  by  you;  not  the  twenty  seven  sacks,  but  the  next  lot  you 
inspected  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember;  the  certificate  will  show  that. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  brands  were  on  that  flour;  I  mean  the 
first  lot  you  inspected  after  the  twenty-seven  sacks? 

A.  It 'was  marked  "Indian  Department,"  and  I  think  it  came  from 
Kansas,  somewhere;  I  am  pretty  sure  it  did. 


208 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q.  Had  it  been  previously  inspected  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  that;  the  only  flour  that  had  been  previously  in 
spected  was  inspected  by  Barclay  White. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  When  was  that? 

A.  I  cannot  remember;  that  book  will  show  it ;  you  will  see  a  letter 
about  it.  [referring  to  the  letter-book.  |  This  letter-book,  which  I  leave 
with  the  commissioners,  contains  copies  of  all  letters  and  communica 
tions  from  me  and  my  assistant,  and  the  subject  of  those  inspections; 
and  they  are  correct.  1  also  leave  with  the  commission  letters  and  tele 
grams  marked  1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  and  8,  as  follows : 

1. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  September  2,  1874. 

SIR  :  Captain  A.  K.  Long,  United  States  Army,  stationed  at  Cheyenne,  Wyoming, 
has  been  designated  as  inspector  of  Indian  supplies  to  be  delivered  at  Cheyenne. 

Upon  his  application,  yon  will  please  turn  over  to  hirn  the  sample  of  flour  in  your 
charge,  to  be  delivered  by  Mr.  J.  H.  Martin,  or  as  much  thereof  as  will  enable  him  to 
make  a  thorough  inspection  of  that  ottered  for  delivery. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM,  Acting  Commissioner. 
S.  H.  PALMER,  Esq., 

Store-keeper  of  Indian  Supplies,  Cheyenne,  Wyo.  T. 


2. 

SUBSISTENCE  DEPARTMENT,  UNITED  STATES  ARMY, 

CHEYENNE  DEPOT,  WYOMING  TERRITORY, 

September  7, 1874. 

SIR  :  Pursuant  to  instructions  received  from  headquarters  Military  Division  of  the 
Missouri  and  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  you  are  hereby  respectfully  requested  to 
furnish  me  the  samples  of  flours  to  be  delivered  by  Mr.  J.  H.  Martin  on  his  contract 
with  the  Indian  Department,  and  which  I  am  by  the  above  authorities  detailed  to  in 
spect.  Please  inform  me  of  the  presentation  by  Mr.  Martin  of  any  flours  on  the  above 
contract. 

I  am,  sir,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

A.  K.  LONG, 

Captain  United  States  Army. 
Mr.  S.  H.  PALMER, 

Store-keeper  of  Indian  Supplies,  Cheyenne,  Wyo.  T. 

3. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  October  2. 
Captain  ANDREW  K.  LONG,  Cheyenne,  Wyo.  : 

Twenty-five  hundred  sacks  on  Martin's  contract  have  been  inspected  at  Omaha;  your 
thorough  inspection  is  all  right. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner. 


4. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  October  15,  1874. 
S.  H.  PALMER,  Store-keeper,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. : 

Allow  no  flour  delivered  under  Martin's  contract  to  leave  for  Red  Cloud  agency  with 
out  the  approved  inspection  of  Captain  Long,  and  render  him  all  the  assistance  he  may 
require  in  using  the  flour  weighed. 

H.  B.  CLUM,  Acting  Commissioner. 
A  true  copy : 

S.  H.  PALMER,  Indian  Store-Keeper. 


209 


CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  October  20,  1874. 

CAPTAIN  :  I  have  the  honor  to  inform  you  that  I  have  615  sacks  of  Indian  flour  ready 
for  your  inspection. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

S.  H.  PALMER.  Indian  Store-Keeper. 
Capt.  A.  K.  LONG,  Present. 

6. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR.  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  January  14,  1875. 

SIR  :  Referring  to  a  letter  from  this  Office  to  S.  V.  Pollard,  under  date  of  7th  ultimo, 
relative  to  the  supplies  of  flour  and  bacon  for  the  Northern  Cheyenne  and  Arapahoe 
Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  you  are  hereby  authorized  to  receive  not  to  exceed 
10  per  cent,  over  and  above  the  quantity  of  30,000  pounds  of  bacon  named  in  said 
letter. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH,  Commisa-wner. 
Capt.  A.  K.  LONG,  U.  S.  A.,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

7. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  April  8,  1875. 

SIR  :  Referring  to  your  letter  of  the  20th  November,  1874,  proposing  to  furnish  cer 
tain  supplies  for  the  Northern  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and 
to  the  letter  from  Agent  Saville,  of  the  22d  ultimo,  requesting  the  delivery  of  certain 
supplies  for  the  Indians,  I  have  to  advise  you  that  your  proposition  is  in  part  accepted, 
and  to  request  that  you  furnish  without  delay  300,000  pounds  corn,  at  |2.20  per  100 
pounds,  delivered  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

The  corn  must  be  inspected  by  the  regular  inspector  at  Cheyenne,  and  delivered  to 
the  agent  of  D.  J.  McCann,  for  transportation  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  or  to  R.  H. 
Bostwick,  store-keeper,  at  Cheyenne. 

Payment  will  be  made  on  presentation  at  this  Office  of  the  certificate  of  the  inspector 

that  the  corn  has  been  inspected  and  received  by  him,  and  found  to  be  sound  and  sweet, 

the  certificate  to  be  accompanied  by  proper  receipts  from  the  party  to  whom  delivered. 

The  presentation  of  the  letter  to  Major  Long  will  be  sufficient  authority  for  the  in 

spection. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner. 
V.  S.  POLLARD,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

3. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,June  11,  1875. 

SIR:  In  reply  to  your  telegram  of  the  8th  instant,  relative  to  the  inspection  of  sup 
plies  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  I  have  to  advise  you  that  Mr.  W.  L.  Coakley  was  instructed, 
by  telegraphic  dispatch  of  the  9th  instant,  to  inspect  the  supplies  in  question. 

In  accordance  with  your  request,  you  are  hereby  relieved  from  any  further  responsi 
bility  in  the  inspection  of  said  supplies. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner. 
Capt.  A.  K.  LONG,  U.  S.  A.,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

Q.  I  want  to  inquire  about  certain  flour  that  was  received  here  and 
inspected  by  Barclay  White,  and  which  you  re-inspected. 

A.  My  book  will  show  that,  sir.  I  rejected  part  of  it.  There  is  a 
long  letter  there  about  it. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  sample  furnished  you  by  the 
Indian  Department  as  a  sample  to  inspect  by  was  an  inferior  article  of 
XX  flour,  and  some  of  the  flour  you  inspected  was  superior  to  the 
sample  and  part  was  not  equal  to  the  sample. 

A.  Yes,  sir.     Some  was  above  the  sample,  I  averaged  it  all.     A  very 
few  sacks  were  passed  that  were  not  up  to  the  sample. 
14  i  F 


210 

Q.  Was  the  part  of  the  flour  you.  rejected  for  the  Shoshones? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  the  first  part. 

Q.  And,  subsequently,  the  flour  you  inspected  was  for  the  Eed  Cloud 
and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  did  aot  inspect  two-thirds  of  the  flour  I  was  ordered 
to  inspect.  Some  slipped  through.  I  don't  know  how  it  was  done.  I 
don't  know  how  it  was  paid  for;  but  I  know  flour  went  through  here 
"while  I  was  inspector  that  I  did  not  inspect;  and  J  know  of  flour  that 
was  purchased  down  at  Sidney,  one  hundred  miles  east  of  here,  bearing 
my  brand,  but  I  do  not  know  how  it  got  there. 

Q.  You  never  inspected  flour  to  go  to  Sidney,  or  to  go  to  either  of 
the  Indian  agencies  by  the  way  of  Sidney  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  it  may  have  been  sold  by  the  Indians  to  an  Indian  trader, 
after  drawing  it;  and  the  trader  may  have  sent  it  on  to  Sidney. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  flour  at  Sidney  yourself? 

A.  I  did  not;  but  I  had  the  information  from  officers  of  the  Army, 
Captain  Monahau,  H.  W.  Moore,  and  Mr.  Van  Tassell.  Mr.  Van  Tas- 
sell  is  the  post-trader  at  Sidney  Barracks,  and  Mr.  Moore  bought  this 
flour  for  him. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  while  you  were  inspector  here,  certain  flour  was 
passed  to  the  agencies  without  your  inspection  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  that  occur;  what  is  the  explanation  of  it  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  how  it  went  through.  My  letters  will  show  that  I 
had  an  order  to  inspect  so  much,  and  my  books  will  show  that  I 
did  not  inspect  the  whole  of  that  amount.  Colonel  French,  I  believe, 
inspected  a  part  of  it,  and  these  twenty-seven  sacks  were  part  of  the 
200,000  pounds  which  he  inspected,  and  all  of  which  was  gone  from  the 
warehouse,  except  those  twenty-seven  sacks,  before  I  began  to  inspect 
flour  here;  and,  as  I  understood  afterward,  (after  I  had  condemned  it — 
before  it  was  shipped,)  that  they  were  sacks  which  had  been  rejected 
by  Colonel  French,  and,  as  Mr.  Palmer  told  me,  they  were  shipped  to 
Eed  Cloud  agency  by  mistake  when  he  was  not  present. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  So  that  the  twenty-seven  sacks  of  flour,  which  you  were  informed 
had  been  rejected  by  French,  were  also  rejected  by  yourself? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  understood  afterward  that  they  were  shipped  to  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency'? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  understand  that  from  ? 

A.  From  Mr.  Palmer.   Palmer  was  store-keeper  before  Bostwick. 

Q.  Did  you  inspect  all  of  this  27  sacks  ? 

A.  I  did,  every  one  of  them  ;  I  went  through  the  whole  of  them.  This 
flour  was  a  very  poor  grade  ot  XX  flour,  but  it  was  not  spoiled ; 
it  was  neither  wet  nor  musty  ;  but  it  was  a  very  poor  grade  of  flour.  It 
was  so  chopped  that  you  could  not  make  bread  out  of  a  part  of  it  to  save 
your  soul. 

Q.  Now,  in  reference  to  this  flour  you  spoke  of  as  bearing  your  brand., 
that  you  were  informed  had  been  sold  at  Sidney,  did  the  gentleman 
who  informed  you  tell  you  the  number  of  sacks  that  were  there  ? 

A.  Mr.  Moore  told  me  he  bought  150  sacks  for  Mr.  Yan  Tassell ;  he 
did  not  say  from  whom;  he  said  he  could  have  bought  a  great  deal  more 

he  had  wanted  it. 


211 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  flour  had  passed  through  here  to  the  agency 
without  inspection  ?  ^ 

A.  Only  persons  told  me  so,  and  I  knew  the  amount  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  had  ordered  me  to  receive  and  the  amount  that 
I  inspected. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  how  you  fix  your  evidence  ? 

A.  Only  by  the  letters. 

Q.  By  whom  were  you  told  f 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you,  sir;  when  I  was  appointed  here,  there  was 
such  a  revolution  among  men,  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  idea  at  the  time  of  the  amount  that  passed 
through  without  your  inspection  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  that  flour  put  up  in  double  sacks  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  were  all  double-cotton  sacks.  At  first  they  were 
short  of  100  pounds. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  any  sacks  containing  only  88  pounds? 
A.  No,  sir;  none  were  less  than  98;  it  was  on  J.  H.  Martin's  contract. 
Q.  What  was  the  weight  of  the  sacks  that  came  from  Hurfordf 
A.  Ninety-eight  pounds  net ;  or  100  pounds  gross. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  sacks  of  flour  there  weighing  as  low  as  88 
pounds  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  my  first  instructions  did  not  tell  me  to  weigh;  it  was  only 
after  the  second  instructions  that  I  commenced  to  weigh. 

Q.  In  giving  your  receipts,  you  give  them  for  the  sacks  as  weighing 
98  pounds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  is  a  letter  in  the  book  explaining  that.  I  had  no 
instruction  first  to  weigh  ;  it  was  only  to  test  the  quality  of  the  flour. 

Q.  Who  was  the  store-keeper  here  when  you  did  this  ? 

A.  Mr.  Palmer  was  part  of  the  time,  Mr.  Bostwick  afterward. 

Q.  Who  was  the  store-keeper  at  the  time  you  inspected  the  flour  that 
had  been  rejected  by  Barclay  White  1 

A.  Mr.  Palmer. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  about  the  administration  of  affairs  at  the 
agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  was  there.  I  have  heard  a  great  deal  from  061- 
cers  of  the  Army  about  the  way  the  Indians  suffered  last  winter. 

Q.  Who  are  they  ;  can  you  name  them  ? 

A.  Yes ;  I  can  name  a  good  many  of  them. 

Q.  Name  such  as  you  now  remember. 

A.  Capt.  W.  W.  Eogers,  Ninth  Infantry,  stationed  at  Spotted  Tail. 
Captain  Eogers  told  me  most  of  it.  I  will  not  mention  any  other  names. 

Q.  Is  he  there  now  ? 

A.  He  is  on  leave  of  absence  in  Philadelphia. 

Q.  For  how  long  ? 

A.  Six  months,  I  think.    The  other  officers  up  there  know  about  it 
he  said  most  positively  it  was  the  fault  of  the  Indian  Department. 

Q.  What  time  was  that  flour  bought  at  Sidney  ? 

A.  I  cannot  tell  you. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  You  are  a  commissary  of  subsistence  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


212 

Q.  Is  it  in  the  Hue  of  your  duties  to  make  purchases  of  beef  for  the 
military  post  here  ! 

A.  Contracts  come  to  me  here  from  the  Department. 

Q.  Do  you  receive  the  beef  here  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  on  the  block.  I  am  at  the  depot,  remember,  not  at  the 
post,  Fort  D.  A.  Russell. 

Q.  It  is  not  part  of  your  duty  to  purchase  and  see  weighed  the  cattle 
on  the  hoof"? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  post  commissary  here  !    Who  inspects  the  Army  beef! 

A.  Nobody  inspects  the  beef;  it  is  received  on  the  block. 

Q.  Who  receives  it  from  the  contractor  ! 

A.  The  commissary. 

Q.  Who  is  the  commissary  ! 

A.  The  commissary  at  each  post. 

Q.  Who  is  the  commissary  at  this  post! 

A.  Lieutenant  Pardee.  We  do  not  take  beef  on  the  hoof,  only  when 
going  on  expeditions. 

Q.  The  duty  of  the  commissary  is  to  weigh  the  beef  on  foot,  when  you 
are  going  on  an  expedition  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  duty  of  the  assistant  commissary  of  sub 
sistence. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  experience  in  this  region  of  country  as  commis 
sary  of  subsistence  in  receiving  beef  from  the  contractors  on  foot! 

A.  I  have  not;  I  have  in  New  Mexico  and  Kansas. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  those  ! 

A.  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  What  was  the  average  weight  of  those  Texas  cattle  you  received ! 

A.  Texas  cattle  that  weighed  900  pounds  each  were  considered  very 
big  ones.  They  cannot  be  driven  from  Texas,  and  weigh  900  pounds 
apiece  when  they  get  here. 

Q.  Take  an  ordinary  herd  of  Texas  cattle,  what  would  they  average! 

A.  Eight  hundred  or  850  pounds,  three  or  four  year  old  steers;  that 
would  be  a  high  average. 

Q.  Well,  as  to  cows  ? 

A.  Cows  won't  weigh  anything  like  that. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  through  cattle  ! 

A.  Texas  cattle  driven  up  through. 

Q.  You  have  seen  a  good  many  Texas  cattle ;  did  you  ever  see  a  herd 
of  Texas  cattle  that  would  average  1,000  pounds,  taking  the  whole 
herd  together  ! 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  did. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Tuesday,  August  24, 1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Colonel  ANDREW  K.  LONG  was  recalled. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Colonel,  in  a  former  statement  which  you  made  to  us,  you 
made  an  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  ordinary  herds  of  Texas  cattle. 
In  making  that  estimate  did  you  refer  to  mixed  or  promiscuous  herds  of 
cattle,  or  to  herds  of  beef-cattle  ? 


213 

Answer.  I  made  the  statement  as  they  are  brought  up  to  use  in  the 
Army.  That  is  the  way  our  contract  reads — that  no  beef  shall  weigh 
less  than  four  hundred  pounds  on  the  block,  or  eight  hundred  and  fifty 
pounds  (850)  gross,  but  I  have  never  yet  seen  a  herd  of  Texas  cattle  that 
would  average  eight  hundred  and  fifty  pounds  gross.  I  am  not  speak 
ing  of  selected  steers.  I  have  never  seen  them  selected  out.  I  have 
taken  them  just  as  they  were  brought  to  us  by  the  beef-contractor. 
When  I  speak  of  the  herds  of  Texas  cattle  I  refer  to  promiscuous  cattle, 
and  I  do  not  refer  to  herds  of  what  is  termed  beef-cattle  of  four-year- 
old  steers  and  upward,  but  only  as  they  drive  them  up  and  put  them 
on  the  scales.  We  require  that  every  animal  must  weigh  not  less  than 
eight  hundred  and  fifty  pounds.  They  may  go  over  that,  but  every  one 
must  weigh  four  hundred  pounds  on  the  block  ;  and  if  it  don't  come  up 
to  that  we  reject  it,  and  charge  the  contractor  with  that,  and  go  out  and 
buy  them  in  open  market.  I  said  in  my  former  statement  that  I  never 
saw  a  herd  of  cattle,  as  they^drive  them  up,  that  would  average  one  thou 
sand  pounds — I  have  seen  them.  I  have  never  seen  a  herd  of  selected 
steers,  as  to  speak  of  them.  I  speak  of  the  herds  of  Texas  cattle 
as  they  are  driven  through,  which  includes  everything,  and  cows. 

Q.  These  Army  cattle  which  you  speak  of,  did  you  ever  see  any  of 
these  herds  on  the  hoof  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  when  you  weigh  them  on  the  hoof  for  the  use  of  the  Army, 
are  they  required,  before  they  are  weighed,  to  be  what  is  termed  lotted 
for  twelve  hours  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  we  are  very  careful  not  to  let  them  drink  water;  they 
are  kept  in  the  corral  the  day  before  they  are  received  and  then  taken 
to  the  scales.  There  is  one  statement  which  has  been  made  to  the  effect 
that  all  flour  which  went  up  there  bore  my  inspection-brand,  or  bore 
a  certificate  to  that  effect.  This  is  a  mistake.  I  do  not  like  it  to  be  said 
that  all  flour  which  went  up  there  bore  my  inspection-brand. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  re-inspect  that  which  was  inspected  by  Barclay 
White  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  some  of  it ;  but  I  did  not  inspect  twenty-five  hundred 
sacks.  I  heard  rumors  that  flour  was  passing  through  here  with  my  in 
spection-brand,  and  I  telegraphed  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
and  he  said  that  twenty-five  hundred  sacks  were  to  be  inspected  at  the 
crossing  of  the  Missouri  River. 


FORT  LARAMIE,  W.  T., 

Wednesday,  August  4,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JULES  ECOFFEE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Ecoffee? 

Answer.  I  am  living  three  miles  above  the  military  post  on  Laramie 
Kiver. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country? 
A.  Twenty-one  years. 


214 

Q.  Have  you  been  at  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  been  a  trader  there,  and  have  been  there  several 
times  since  I  have  been  dismissed. 

Q.  When  were  you  trader  there  ? 

A.  Two  years  ago,  when  Dr.  Saville  first  went  into  office.  He  dis 
charged  me ;  he  sent  me  off. 

Q.  You  have  been  there  several  times  since  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  1 

A.  I  could  not  tell  exactly,  but  at  least  six  or  seven  times. 

Q.  Were  you  there,  do  you  recollect,  about  November,  1874  ? 

A.  I  was  there  about  that  time ;  I  could  not  tell  you  exactly  the  day, 
but  I  was  there  in  November  some  time. 

Q.  Have  you  knowledge  of  how  many  Indians  were  there  at  that 
agency  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  pretty  near.  I  believe  there  was  at  no  time  at  Eed 
Cloud  agency  over  nine  or  ten  thousand  Indians,  at  the  most,  and  pretty 
near  all  the  time  many  were  away  on  the  hunt,  so  that  there  were  about 
half  the  number  left. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  northern  Indians  coming  down 
there  about  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  was  a  party  of  Minneconjoux  came  there  about 
that  time,  but  Lone  Horn  went  to  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  with  his 
band. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  a  trader  there  1 

A.  Dr.  Saville  dismissed  me  after  he  was  there  only  a  few  days. 

Q.  You  had  been  there  how  long  ? 

A.  I  had  been  trader  ever  since  the  agency  was  established.  I  wras 
trader  at  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  from  there  I  moved  up  to  the 
new  agency  until  Dr.  Saville  came  in. 

Q.  How  many  years  were  you  at  the  old  and  new  agency  together  * 

A.  I  was  at  the  old  agency  over  two  years,  but  I  was  doing  business 
under  the  name  of  the  firm  of  Eeshaw  (Richard)  &  Company. 

Q.  Were  you  about  there  some  time  after  Dr.  Saville  arrived? 

A.  Only  a  few  days. 

Q.  Then  you  left  ! 

A.  He  sent  me  away. 

Q.  But  you  went  back  sometimes  ? 

A.  I  have  been  back  there  from  six  to  seven  or  eight  times  since  that 
time. 

Q.  When  you  went  back  how  long  did  you  stay  at  a  time  ? 

A.  Sometimes  a  week  and  sometimes  two  or  three  days. 

Q.  From  what  you  saw  there,  what  was  the  character  of  the  general 
management  of  affairs  at  the  agency;  how  were  things  carried  on  by 
Dr.  Savilie  ! 

A.  Well,  in  my  opinion,  very  badly. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  issuing  of  cattle  at  that  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  did  they  issue  there  generally  ? 

A.  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Were  those  cattle  that  had  been  wintered  in  this  country,  or  were 
they  what  are  called  through  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  they  might  have  been  in  the  country  five  or  six  months, 
but  they  were  generally  driven  through  from  Texas. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  experience  in  the  handling  of  cattle,  so  as  to 
know  the  weight  of  them  ? 


215 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been  beef-contractor  for  the  Government  for  sup 
plying  the  troops  for  several  years. 

Q.  These  cattle  that  you  saw  issued  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  what 
do  you  think  they  would  average  in  weight  1 

A.  Sometimes  they  would  issue  large  cattle,  but  very  seldom ;  at 
other  times  they  would  issue  small  cattle.  I  saw  two-year-olds  issued 
there,  and  I  don't  believe  that,  take  them  all  through,  they  would  aver 
age  450  pounds.  I  had  the  contract  last  year,  (to  expire  on  the  1st  of 
July,)  for  supplying  the  troops  near  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail 
agencies,  and  my  cattle  did  not  come  up  to  that  standard  ;  they  were 
pretty  near  full-blooded  American  cattle. 

Q.  About  how  much  did  the  cattle  that  you  issued  to  the  Government 
average  ! 

A.  I  don't  believe  that  they  averaged  over  400  pounds. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Do  you  mean  net  ? 
A.  I  mean  dressed  ;  net. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  these  cattle  that  you  saw  issued  to  the  Indians  at  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency  all  steers  or  cows  ! 

A.  They  were  all  kinds. 

Q.  As  many  of  one  kind  as  another  f 

A.  As  many  cows  as  steers. 

Q.  Were  you  there  about  November,  1874? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  issued  there  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  may  have  seen  them,  but  I  do  not  remember  about  it;  but  when 
I  went  out  there  I  saw  several  issues  of  cattle  made. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  Professor  Marsh  ;  did  you  ever  see  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  him  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  issued  at  the  time  he  was  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  They  were  over  the  usual  average. 

Q.  Would  those  cattle  you  saw  issued  on  that  occasion  average  1,000 
pounds  all  round  9 

A.  Well,  they  might,  but  I  don't  believe  they  would.  They  were 
larger  than  those  they  generally  issued. 

Q.  About  how  much  will  a  Texas  cow  that  has  been  wintered  here 
weigh  f 

A.  It  would  take  a  large  and  fat  Texas  cow  to  average  450  pounds 
net,  dressed. 

Q.  About  what  is  the  usual  difference  between  the  net  weight  and 
gross  weight  ? 

A.  Cattle  under  600  pounds  net  about  one-half;  what  I  mean  to  say 
is  this,  a  steer  or  cow  that  will  weigh  1,200  pounds  gross  will  dress  only 
about  600  pounds  net. 

Q.  When  they  will  weigh  800  pounds  gross  how  much  will  they  weigh 
dressed  I 

A.  About  400;  just  about  one-half. 

Q.  And  when  they  weigh  600  pounds  gross  they  will  weigh  300 
dressed  I 


216 

A.  No,  sir;  tbe  smaller  they  are  the  less  they  will  net,  the  less  meat 
you  will  get  out  of  them. 

Q.  Were  you  there  during  last  winter  at  any  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  the  Indians  then  at  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  What  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Did  they  have  plenty  of  clothing  and  plenty  to  eat? 

A.  .No,  sir ;  they  had  been  out  of  meat,  out  of  flour,  out  of  bacon, 
and  out  of  almost  everything  at  different  times. 

Q.  When  they  were  out  of  everything  I  suppose  there  was  suffering 
among  them  for  want  of  food  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  a  report— I  do  not  know  whether  it  is  true  or 
not— that  some  children  died  of  starvation— but  I  could  not  swear  to  it 
— among  the  Arapahoes. 

Q.  Do  you  speak  the  Sioux  language  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  the  Sioux  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  about 
Dr.  Saville  <? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  say  about  him  ? 

A.  They  say  they  don't  like  him;  they  want  to  send  him  oft';  they 
want  to  have  him  sent  off  as  soon  as  possible. 

Q.  Did  they  give  any  reason  why  they  disliked  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Eed  Cloud  himself,  in  the  presence  of  General  Bradlev 
and  Professor  Marsh  (I  went  out  with  them  at  the  time)  told  me  that 
he  did  not  want  him ;  that  he  was  stealing  their  grub,  stealing  their 
goods  and  everything,  and  the  Indians  did  not  get  their  iust  due,  their 
rights,  from  him. 

Q.  They  thought  he  was  not  a  good  man  ? 

A.  That  is  exactly  what  they  stated,  that  he  was  not  a  good  man. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  any  of  the  other  Indians  beside  Bed  Cloud  ? 

A.  O,  yes;  most  all  of  them.  I  talked  with  Youug-Man-Afraid-of- 
his-Horse,  one  of  the  head  young  men  they  called  Sword,  and  I  spoke 
with  The-One-that-Carried-the-Drum,  and,  in  fact,  all  the  principal  men 
among  them,  and  they  all  made  complaints,  every  one  of  them. 

Q.  Did  they  complain  that  he  did  not  give  them  what  was  due  to 
them  ? 

A.  They  said  they  did  not  get  their  rights ;  that  is  what  they  com 
plained  about. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  way  goods  and  supplies  are  con 
veyed  from  Cheyenne  up  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  road  they  travel  over  with  these  goods  from 
Cheyenne  to  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  come  this  way,  via  Fort  Laramie  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  they  generally  go  by  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency,  thirty 
miles  below  here ;  sometimes,  once  in  a  while,  they  come  through  here, 
but  I  know  the  distance  perfectly  well  on  both  roads. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Eed  Cloud  agency 
by  the  way  they  generally  haul  the  freight  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  far  is  it  ? 

A.  Well,  it  is  about  one  hundred  and  sixty-nine  miles. 

Q.  How  far  is  it  from  Cheyenne  to  Eunuing  Water? 


217 

A.  From  Cheyenne  to  Euuning  Water,  by  the  way  of  the  old  Eed 
Cloud  agency,  is  about  one  hundred  and  twenty-five  miles. 

Q.  From  there  to  where  the  Fort  Laramie  road  runs  into  the  old  road 
is  about  how  far  1 

A.  The  Fort  Laramie  road  don't  run  into  that  road  at  all. 

Q.  Well,  from  there  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  then,  is  about  how  far  1 

A.  From  Running  Water? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. 

A.  It  is  about  forty-four  miles. 

Q.  Now,  maybe  you  could  go  over  it  a  little  better ;  bat  tell  us  in 
your  own  way  the  different  places  that  you  remember  along  the  road  ? 

A.  This  is  the  regular  road  that  they  travel.  There  is  one  road  a  lit 
tle  shorter,  but  they  can't  go  on  it  with  loaded  teams  because  it  is  too 
sandy. 

Q.  And  then  you  think  from  Cheyenne  to  the  present  Eed  Cloud 
agency,  by  the  way  they  haul  freight,  is  about  one  hundred  and  sixty- 
nine  miles! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  just  about  that;  something  like  that  to  where  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency  is  now. 

Q.  W^ere  you  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  at  the  time  the  annuity  goods 
were  issued  last  November  I 

A.  I  was  there  a  couple  of  days. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  any  of  the  goods  that  were  being  issued  to  the 
Indians  at  that  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  not  look  at  them  particularly  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  were  there  were  you  in  the  camps  of  the  Indians,  or  did 
you  talk  with  the  Indians  at  all  ? 

A.  O,  certainly;  I  always  stayed  near  the  agency;  sometimes  I  stayed 
at  Camp  Eobinson,  but  mostly  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Were  you  in  any  of  their  tepees  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  kind  of  flour  the  Indians  had  issued  to  them 
then  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  what  kind  of  flour  they  had  then,  but  before  that 
it  was  very  bad.  At  the  time  Professor  Marsh  and  General  Bradley 
were  there,  Eed  CUoud  and  Eed  Dog  showed  them  some  tobacco  and 
flour.  The  tobacco  was  perfectly  rotten,  and  the  flour  was  pretty  near 
as  black  as  that  stove. 

Q.  Did  the  flour  seem  to  be  spoiled  1 

A.  I  could  not  tell;  I  asked  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  if  that  was  a 
fair  specimen  of  what  they  were  receiving,  and  they  said,  Yes,  that  was  the 
quality  they  were  getting. 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  how  many  people  the  Indians  generally  put 
in  a  lodge  ? 

A.  You  mean  the  average  ? 

Q.  Yes,  the  average. 

A.  In  the  old  time  they  used  to  count  them  five,  but  now,  since  they 
don't  hunt  buffaloes  much,  they  average  about  eight,  not  more  than 
eight  all  through.  In  the  old  time  they  used  to  make  their  tepees  out 
of  buffalo-skins,  but  since  then  they  make  their  tents  out  of  the  canvas 
used  by  the  Government,  and  they  make  them  larger  than  they  used  to. 

Q.  I  believe  you  stated  about  how  many  Indians  were  at  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency  in  the  beginning  of  November  ? 

A.  I  don't  believe  there  was  there  at  any  one  time  at  the  outside, 


218 

figuring  it  at  most,  more  than  nine  thousand  people;  and  for  my  part, 
I  don't  believe  there  were  that  many,  but  I  would  put  down  that 
number. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  Indians  use  any  of  the  tobacco,  the  same  kind 
of  tobacco  that  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  showed  you? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  saw  them  throw  it  away. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  flour  thrown  away  ? 

A.  Not  at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  but  I  saw  them  selling  it  at  the 
Eed  Cloud  agency  to  the  whites,  to  whoever  would  buy  it,  and  I 
bought  some  myself  and  paid  one  dollar  and  a  half  a  sack  lor  it  to  feed 
my  horses  when  I  had  no  grain. 

Q.  What  kind  of  flour  was  that  ? 

A.  Not  very  good. 

Q.  Good  for  horse-feed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  think  it  would  have  made  good  bread? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That,  I  understand  you,  was  some  time  last  fall — in  October  and 
November! 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  there  in  the  last  part  of  October  and  in  Novem 
ber. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  coffee  that  the  Indians  had 
there  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  any  except  what  Eed  Cloud  brought  in  when  he 
showed  it  to  Professor  Marsh,  and  he  said  that  was  the  same  kind  of  coffee 
that  was  being  issued  to  them,  and  what  I  saw  was  miserable  stuff;  but  I 
did  not  see  any  issued,  but  he  said  that  was  an  average  of  the  provis 
ions  that  were  issued  to  them. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  the  Indians  complain  about  their  blankets? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  there  at  the  time  they  were  issuing  some  pork  to  the 
Indians  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  pork  was  that  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  of  a  pretty  fair  quality. 

Q.  Professor  Marsh  says  that  the  Indians  cut  off  a  part  of  it  and 
threw  the  rest  away  on  the  spot;  do  you  know  anything  about  that  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that;  I  never  saw  them  do  that. 

Q.  Do  Indians  like  pork  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  they  do  use  it,  what  part  of  it  do  they  use,  the  fat 
part  or  the  lean  ? 

A.  When  they  are  right  hungry  they  use  the  whole  of  it,  but  if 
they  have  plenty  of  beef,  they  only  take  the  fat  part  of  the  pork ;  they 
don't  like  lean  meat. 

Q.  The  pork  you  saw,  you  say,  was  not  spoiled  pork,  but  was  sweet 
and  good  ? 

A.  It  looked  to  me  to  be  good ;  it  looked  pretty  fair ;  still  the  Indians 
don't  like  pork;  they  would  much  rather  have  bacon  than  pork. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Ecoffee,  by  what  process  do  you  come  to  the  conclusion  that 
the  number  of  Indians  there  was  9,000  ? 

A.  By  knowing  the  number  of  lodges  that  were  there. 

Q.  Did  it  fall  in  your  way  to  count  the  number  of  lodges,  so  as  to  as 
certain  the  number  of  Indians  there? 


219 

A.  I  just  averaged  them — so  many  to  a  lodge — and  we  generally  know 
pretty  near  bow  many  lodges  there  are  around  the  agency  drawing 
rations.  I  know,  of  my  own  knowledge,  that  1  hauled  for  Eed  Cloud 
five  sacks  of  sugar  and  two  sacks  of  coffee  from  the  old  Eed  Cloud 
agency  to  the  new  one. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that  ? 

A.  I  mean  this,  that  he  had  so  much  rations  there. 

Q.  This  was  at  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  you  speak  of! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  at  the  time  they  moved. 

Q.  That  is,  they  were  transported  from  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  to 
the  new  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  is  it  since  the  agency  was  removed  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  exactly  when  it  was  moved ;  it  is  about  two  years 
ago. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Was  it  before  or  after  Dr.  Saville  was  appointed  agent? 

A.  O,  yes,  it  was  before  Dr.  Saville  came  there ;  they  issued  them  at 
different  times  more  rations  than  they  were  entitled  to,  in  order  to  get 
the  good-will  of  the  chiefs. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q.  Did  you  say  to  get  their  good-will  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Do  you  mean  certain  chiefs  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  to  get  the  good-will  of  the  chief,  the  poor  women  and 
children  having  to  suffer  for  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  some  one-year-old  cattle  issued  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  time  ? 

A.  Eight  along  for  the  last  two  years. 

Q.  What  proportion  did  they  bear  to  the  general  herd  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  exactly ;  I  did  not  count  them. 

Q.  Could  you  not  form  an  idea  as  to  whether  they  constituted  a  very 
small  proportion  of  it  or  not  ? 

A.  It  was  a  small  proportion. 

Q.  Was  it  a  very  small  proportion  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  having  a  contract  yourself.  What  was  that  contract 
for? 

A.  I  had  a  contract  to  furnish  the  troops  at  Camp  Sheridan  and  Camp 
Eobinson,  near  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  respectively, 
with  beef.  • 

Q.  In  fulfillment  of  that  contract,  were  you  allowed  to  deliver  cattle 
which  netted  400  pounds  ? 

A.  My  cattle  did  not  average  that ;  about  three-fourths  of  them  were 
American  cattle ;  they  were  of  mixed  blood  5  but  I  can  bring  you  some  state 
ments  from  my  butchers  out  there  of  the  number  of  cattle  they  killed 
last  mouth,  and  what  they  averaged  j  I  suppose  I  have  that  statement  at 
home. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  having  observed  an  issue  of  cattle  there  in  the  fall 
of  1874,  which,  in  your  judgment,  averaged  a  thousand  pounds  gross  on 
the  hoof? 


220 

A.  I  said  this  :  that  when  Professor  Marsh  was  there,  the  cattle  that 
issued  at  that  time  were  a  little  larger  than  the  usual  average. 

Q.  But  you  thought  they  would  average  about  a  thousand  pounds  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  do  you  mean  by  the  expression  that  you  thought  they 
would  average  about  a  thousand  ? 

A.  Well,  don't  you  make  a  mistake  about  that  5  I  said  I  did  not  be 
lieve  they  would  average  about  a  thousand. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Would  they  have  averaged  850  pounds  ? 
A.  I  told  you  what  I  thought  about  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Can't  you  state  to  the  commission  why  you  don't  want  to  answer 
that  question  ? 

A.  I  don't  feel  like  answering  it ;  I  will  give  you  all  the  information 
I  can 

Q.  Is  it  because  you  don't  know,  or  because  you  have  some  interest 
with  somebody  else,  that  you  don't  like  to  answer  ? 

A.  I  have  not  any  interest  with  anybody  else. 

Q.  Do  you  say  you  do  not  know  f 

A.  I  do  not  say  I  do  not  know ;  I  did  not  say  that  either. 

Q.  Do  you  say  you  do  know  ? 

A.  I  do  not  say  anything,  further  than  that  I  don't  believe  they 
would  average  a  thousand  pounds. 

Q.  Do  you  know  they  would  not  average  a  thousand  pounds  ? 

A.  I  do  not  say  that  either ;  I  say  I  do  not  believe  they  would  aver 
age  that  weight,  and  I  will  give  you  my  word  of  honor  as  a  gentleman 
that  I  have  no  interest  one  way  or  the  other,  but  I  do  not  like  to  an 
swer  that  question,  because  I  may  be  wrong  about  it ;  I  will  get  up  and 
swear  to  what  I  say ;  if  there  is  anybody  here  who  will  swear  me,  I  will 
swear  to  what  statements  I  make. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  It  is  a  mere  matter  of  opinion,  and  if  you  have  any 
doubt  about  the  accuracy  of  your  judgment  of  the  weight  of  cattle,  you 
are  justified  in  withholding  it. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Why  do  you  say  they  would  average  about  a  thousand  pounds  1 
Why  don't  you  say  they  would  have  averaged  800  or  1,200 ;  what  leads 
you  to  fix  the  figures  at  a  thousand  ?  The  query  in  my  mind  is  why 
you  fix  upon  that  particular  figure  ? 

A.  In  round  numbers  I  would  say  they  would  not  average  a  thousand, 
but  I  could  not  give  any  particular  figures. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  would  average  nine  hundred  ? 

A.  I  do  not  say  anything  more  than  what  I  told  you. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  You  stated,  Mr.  Ecoffee,  that  in  conversation  with  lied  Dog  and 
lied  Cloud,  and  several  other  Indians,  they  complained  of  their  agent? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  Indian  character  and 
Indian  habits  to  enable  you  to  state  whether  or  not,  as  a  matter  of  habit, 
they  are  given  to  making  complaints? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  am.  They  generally  make  complaints  about  their  agent, 
but  at  the  same  time  their  complaints  were  a  great  deal  worse  against 


221 

Dr.  Saville  than  against  any  other  agent ;  but  they  are  generally  in  the 
habit  of  complaining :  it  is  their  character. 

Q.  Well,  did  they  specify  to  you  the  particular  grounds  upon  which 
they  complained  of  Dr.  Saville  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  them  ? 

A.  They  said  that  Dr.  Saville  was  stealing  their  goods  and  stealing 
their  clothing. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  kind  of  flour  being  sold  there  at  one  time.  Will 
you  state  the  kind  ? 

A.  I  say  that  I  bought  about  two  sacks  myself,  and  paid  a  dollar  and 
a  half  for  it 

Q.  But  you  spoke  about  a  large  quantity  being  sold.  I  understood 
you  to  say  so.  Perhaps  1  did  not  hear  you  distinctly,  but  I  thought  you 
said  upward  of  a  hundred  sacks  were  sold. 

A.  I  did  not  say  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  more  being  sold  than  what  you  bought? 

A.  There  is  lots  of  it  being  sold  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  To  whom  was  it  sold  ? 

A.  Sold  to  the  Indians.  I  only  know  that  I  bought  a  couple  of  sacks 
for  horse-feed. 

Q.  Then  it  was  sold  promiscuously,  to  anybody  that  would  buy  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Most  any  white  men  who  had  married  squaws  could 
buy  all  they  wanted. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Are  there  a  good  many  squaw-men  about  there  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir.    At  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  there  are  about  fifty  or  seventy- 
five. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  say  whether  any  of  that  flour  was  sold  to  the  freighters? 
A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know.  "  I  could  not  tell  you  that.     I  do  not  know 
anything  about  that? 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  Where  were  you  born  ? 
A.  In  Switzerland. 
Q.  And  where  were  you  educated  ? 

A.  I  was  educated  at  a  place  called  Freiburg,  in  Switzerland. 
Q.  At  a  college  there  ! 
A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  And  graduated  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country  1 
A.  Twenty-two  years. 

Q.  And  have  you  spent  most  of  your  life  in  this  neighborhood  1 
A.  About  twenty-one  years. 
Q.  Have  you  dealt  in  cattle  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  liaised  cattle  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  have  you  ever  owned  at  any  one  time  ! 
A.  That  is  a  hard  question'to  answer  ;  over  a  thousand,  however. 
Q.  Do  you  own  any  now  ? 

A.  I  have  only  about  three  hundred  or  four  hundred  now. 
Q.  Are  you  accustomed  to  sell  cattle  by  weight  ? 


222 

A.  It  is  no  use  to  go  around—you  can't  get  me  on  that.  I  furnished 
cattle  at  this  military  post  in  1S(>6  that  averaged  800  pounds  net,  but 
they  were  blooded  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  something  about  the  Texas  cattle  called  through 
cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  do. 

Q.  Can  you  judge,  from  your  experience,  how  much  Texas  through 
cattle — oxen,  I  mean — will  weigh  by  September  or  October,  on  the  aver 
age  ;  good,  first-class  cattle  ? 

A.  They  will  weigh  over  a  thousand  pounds,  if  they  are  fat  cattle. 

Q.  Suppose  they  are  Texas  through  cattle,  driven  from  Texas  the 
same  year;  take  cattle  driven  from  Texas  this  spring;  would  you  expect 
that  by  next  September  or  October  they  would  average  a  thousand 
pounds  ? 

A.  I  cannot  answer  that,  because  I  do  not  want  to  say. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  you  could  get  any  such  cattle? 

(No  answer.) 

(Question  repeated.) 

A.  I  do  not  want  to  answer. 

Q.  Do  you  say  you  cannot  answer  that  question  or  that  you  do  not 
want  to  answer  it,  which  ? 

A.  I  say  I  do  not  want  to  answer  it. 

Q.  But  you  have  an  opinion  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  the  weight  of  a  good  cow  ? 

A.  That  is  another  question  I  don't  want  to  answer. 

Q.  Take  a  cow  five  years  old,  and  a  fat  Texas  cow,  if  you  please. 

A.  If  you  take  a  fat  American  cow  of  five  years  old,  or  four  years  old, 
it  will  dress  about  550  or  COO  pounds,  that  is,  I  mean  an  American  cow. 

Q.  What  would  such  a  Texas  cow  weigh  ?  That  is  what  I  want  to 
get  at. 

A.  A  Texas  cow  will  not  dress  as  much  as  an  American  cow. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Ecoifee,  we  called  you  because  we  supposed  you  had  a 
large  experience  here.  Weuuderstand  you  speak  six  or  seven  languages. 
We  have  called  you  here  because  we  supposed  you  could  give  us  better 
information  than  anybody  else  about  here ;  we  have  not  called  you  to 
ask  you  questions  under  oath,  because  we  supposed  that  no  oath  would 
add  anything  to  the  weight  of  your  testimony 

A.  Excuse  me  for  interrupting  you,  but  I  would  like  to  swear  to  my 
testimony.  I  am  willing  to  swear  to  every  word  I  say. 

Q.  Are  you  willing  to  tell  the  commission  all  you  know? 

A.  No;  I  could  not  say  that  either. 

Q.  Passing  to  another  subject :  You  say  you  saw  rotten  tobacco  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  it  in  the  hands  of  the  Indians  or  in  the  hands  of  the 
agent  ? 

A.  I  saw  the  Indians  throw  away  tobacco,  and  I  saw  them  selling  it 
to  soldiers  for  whatever  they  would  give  them  for  it ;  and  I  saw  rotten 
tobacco  in  the  hands  of  Professor  Marsh  when  he  was  out  there. 

Q.  You  say  you  saw  the  agent  giving  it  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No;  I  did  not  say  that.  This  Indian  tobacco  is  the  only  kind  they 
have  out  there,  and  I  saw  Indians  buy  tobacco  from  the  traders  there; 
that  is,  natural  leaf.  The  tobacco  they  had  was  darker;  it  was  old 
stuff. 

Q.  You  say  it  was  rotten  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


223 

Q.  Describe  it  fully,  so  as  we  can  get  an  idea  of  its  condition  ! 

A.  They  were  plugs,  probably  between  12  and  14  inches  long,  and 
about  4  or  5  inches  wide,  and  the  tobacco  was  rotten  ;  it  was  not  fit  to 
use  to  smoke  or  chew,  or  anything. 

Q.  Was  it  wet  or  moist  ? 

A.  It  must  have  been  5  it  was  very  soft.  You  can  tell  rotten  tobacco 
by  the^smell. 

Q.  Did  you  use  any  of  it  ? 

A.  I  do  not  use  tobacco,  except  cigars. 

Q.  You  saw  them  buying  some  kind  of  tobacco  from  the  trader  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  twenty  times. 

Q.  What  kind  of  tobacco  does  the  trader  sell  them  ? 

A.  That  is  bright  yellow  tobacco — natural  leaf. 

Q.  You  saw  none  of  this  black  tobacco  sold  by  the  traders  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  they  do  not  get  it.  I  have  been  in  every .  place  where 
they  were  selling  goods  there,  and  I  did  not  see  any  of  that  kind  of 
tobacco  at  all. 

Q.  You  saw  that  tobacco  which  Professor  Marsh  had  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Eed  Cloud  give  it  to  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  y»u  keep  a  sample  of  it  ? 

A.  I  was  present  in  General  Bradley's  tent  when  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed 
Dog  came  there,  and  when  they  brought  that  tobacco,  and  gave  it  to 
them,  and  I  took  the  tobacco  in  my  hands,  and  General  Bradley  was 
present. 

Q.  You  say  you  saw  bad  flour  last  year  'I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

A.  Now,  tell  me  where  you  saw  it? 

A  I  saw  lots  of  it  in  the  house  of  an  interpreter  we  have  there ;  his 
name  is  Joseph  Bissonett;  he  is  dead  now. 

Q.  Describe  the  condition  of  that  flour  as  you  saw  it,  so  that  we  can 
understand  it. 

A.  It  was  all  in  lumps,  and  it  was  dark  in  color. 

Q.  Flour  that  had  soured  I 

A.  I  do  not  know  if  it  was  sour  or  not;  I  did  not  get  any  bread  made 
out  of  it ;  it  was  in  lumps. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  had  the  Indian  Department  brand  on  it? 

A.  That  I  could  not  tell;  I  do  not  know.  I  know  one  thing,  that  a 
great  deal  of  flour  went  there  that  was  not  branded  by  the  inspector. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  ? 

A.  Because  I  saw  it. 

Q.  You  saw  it,  where  ? 

A.  At  the  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  In  the  building  there"? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  when  they  were  issuing  it  I  saw  it  outside. 

Q.  You  saw  it  as  it  came  out  of  the  store-house? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you,  at  any  time,  taste  of  bread  made  out  of  that  flour? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  you  tasted  the  bad  flour  ? 

A.  Yes  sir;  it  was  bad  flour;  it  made  the  bread  yellow,  just  about 
the  color  of  that  door. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q,  Can  you  fix  the  time  that  this  bad  flour  was  there? 
A.  Since  I  have  been  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  for  the  last  two  year* 


224 

and  a  half,  they  never  had  one  hundred  sacks  of  good  flour  5  all  the  flour 
has  been  bad  right  along  for  the  last  two  years. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  lately  have  you  been  there? 

A.  Where?  At  Bed  Cloud? 

Q.  Yes. 

A.  About  three  weeks  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  flour  they  had  there  then  ? 

A.  No ;  I  did  not  go  but  very  little  around  the  agency :  I  went  to  the 
military  post  above  it. 

Q.  Has  Mr.  Bosler  ever  got  any  cattle  from  you— J.  W.  Bosler? 

A.  I  know  him :  yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago"? 

A.  That  I  could  not  remember  exactly,  but  we  sold  him  some  cattle 
at  one  time. 

Q.  Within  two  years  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  the  time  at  all;  I  can  tell  you  by  looking  over 
the  books. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  the  number  ? 

A.  It  was  only  a  small  number. 

Q.  Was  it  at  the  old  agency  or  the  new  f 

A.  That  is  another  thing  I  cannot  remember.  1  can  tell  yotf  to-morrow 
if  you  will  be  here. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me,  then,  what  kind  the  cattle  were  * 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  much  they  weighed  f 

A.  They  were  not  Texas  cattle;  they  weighed  probably  about  in  the 
neighborhood  of  five  hundred  pounds  or  a  little  over. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  mean  dressed — net? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  they  were  sent  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Ecoffee,  you  speak  of  the  Indians  complaining  of  the  agent 
stealing  their  food  and  clothing  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  personal  knowledge  of  any  act  by  the  agent  that 
would  subject  him  to  that  charge  of  stealing  or  depriving  the  Indians 
of  what  was  justly  due  them  1 

A.  I  cannot  tell  that,  because  if  there  has  been  any  supplies  stolen 
they  have  to  be  stolen  before  it  comes  to  the  agency  ;  it  has  been  done 
either  where  it  comes  from  or  in  Cheyenne,  where  it  is  shipped  from  j  at 
the  agency  the  agent  has  no  chance  in  the  world  to  sell  any  grub  to  any 
one. 

Q.  Then  you  think  there  could  be  no  act  of  stealing  by  the  agent  at 
his  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  of  grub. 

Q.  I  mean  of  grub  or  clothing  ? 

A.  As  to  clothing  I  do  not  know,  but  as  to  grub  he  could  not  very 
well  do  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  What  means  have  they  at  the  agency  for  determiuiug  accurately 
the  amount  of  beef  that  is  delivered  there  ? 
A.  None  at  all,  except 


225 

Q.  Could  you  not  undertake  to  cheat  the  agent  in  the  delivery  of 
cattle  if  you  wanted  to  bid  for  the  contract  1 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don't  want  it. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  to  prevent  the  agent  receiving  cattle  that  are 
under  weight  ? 

A.  I  would  like  to  know  what  would  prevent  it.  There  is  nothing 
in  the  world.  They  take  a  drove  of  cattle  in  there  and  they  can  take 
one  big  one  and  average  the  rest  by  it ;  they  generally  weigh  five  or 
six,  as  many  as  they  can  put  on  the  scale,  (they  have  a  Fairbanks  scale;) 
they  can  put  in  the  biggest  and  weigh  them,  and  average  the  whole 
number  by  them. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  cattle  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  they  would  not  allow  me  to  go  near  the  scales. 

Q.  When  were  you  refused  such  permission  ? 

A.  About  a  couple  of  months  ago. 

Q.  Did  they  tell  you  so  f 

A. .They  said  they  did  not  want  anybody  to  go  down  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  to  go  down  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  ? 

A.  No  one. 

Q.  Who  said  it? 

A.  The  men  who  were  herding  the  cattle. 

Q.  WTho  were  they  I 

A.  I  do  not  know  their  names ;  the  employes  of  the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Appletou  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  there? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know  that  he  was. 

Q.  Were  either  of  the  Boslers  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  turned  out  to  the  Indians,  after  they  had 
been  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  you  really  don't  know  anything  about  it  at  the  time  you  spoke 
of,  two  mouths  ago  ? 

(No  answer.)- 

Q.  Have  you  at  any  time  during  two  years  seen  cattle  weighed  at 
Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Does  your  experience  enable  you  to  suggest  any  possible  check 
that  could  be  used  at  the  agency  so  as  to  prevent  any  abuse  in  its  man 
agement? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Let  us  hear  what  your  suggestions  would  be? 

A.  The  suggestion  would  be  just  to  turn  the  whole  thing  over  to  the 
War  Department,  letting  the  officers  issue  the  rations,  and  have  an 
officer  for  agent  that  will  do  the  Indians  justice.  The  Indians  them 
selves  wish  to  have  an  officer  of  the  Army  for  agent;  I  heard  them  say 
so  a  hundred  times. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  per  pound  for  beef  furnished  to  the  Army 
on  the  block  here  ? 

A.  When  I  furnished  beef  for  the  Army,  at  the  military  posts  near 
15  I  F 


226 

Bed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  up  to  the  1st  of  July,  1875,  I  bad 
9|  cents  per  pound  net. 

Q.  What  sized  cattle  were  you  obliged  to  furnish  under  that  contract  ? 

A.  Cattle  that  would  weigh  over  500  pounds  net. 

Q.  If  you  failed  to  supply  that  kind  of  beef,  what  was  the  result ; 
what  happened  to  you  J? 

A.  They  could  break  up  my  contract;  but  I  furnished  very  good  beef, 
yet  I  furnished  a  great  many  cattle  that  did  not  weigh  that  much. 

Q.  Is  it  all  inspected  by  an  Army  officer  after  you  turn  it  in  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  it  is  rejected  ? 

A.  Some  of  it  has  been  rejected. 

Q.  What  is  done  in  that  case  ? 

A.  I  have  to  furnish  some  other  in  place  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  not  to  pay  what  the  Army  officer  may  have  to  pay  for 
beef  to  take  its  place,  if  he  steps  out  and  supplies  it  himself? 

A.  If  they  condemn  my  beef,  and  get  some  other  beef,  I  have  to  pay 
whatever  they  pay  for  it ;  it  does  not  make  any  difference  what  the  price 
is;  if  they  pay  50  cents  a  pound  I  have  to  pay  it;  they  take  it  out  of 
what  is  coming  to  me  on  the  contract. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  But  they  may  allow  you  to  make  it  up  ! 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  say  that  up  at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  at  the  time  they  were 
about  to  weigh  some  beef,  some  one  told  you  they  did  not  want  you 
there  ? 

A.  Two  or  three  of  the  employes  of  the  agency  said  so. 

Q.  You  started  to  go  down  ? 

A.  They  stopped  me,  and  I  know  several  others  whom  they  stopped 
from  going  down. 

Q.  They  told  you  they  did  not  want  you  out  there? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  How  long  ago  is  that  ? 
A.  About  a  couple  of  months. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  time,  Mr.  Ecoftee,  when  they  were  out  of  meat, 
flour,  and  almost  everything  needed  to  feed  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  who  was  responsible  as  far  as  your  observation  ex 
tended  for  that  condition  of  things  ;  were  there  supplies  at  the  agency, 
and  could  they  have  been  supplied,  or  had  not  they  been  brought  there, 
so  as  to  enable  the  agent  to  distribute  them  If 

A.  It  is  either  the  agent  or  the  contractor  for  freighting,  the  men  who 
contract  to  take  the  goods  out  there. 

Q.  I  know  it  was  one  or  the  other,  but  I  ask  you,  if  your  knowledge, 
and  experience,  and  observation  enable  you  to  determine  who  has  failed 
to  do  so ;  in  other  words,  were  the  goods  on  hand  there  and  not  distrib 
uted,  or  was  the  agent  without  the  goods  and  without  the  provisions 
to  issue  ? 

A.  Well  if  there  has  been  any  fraud  about  selling  goods,  that  is  selling 
the  rations,  it  must  be  with  the  agent,  but  at  the  same  time  the  con- 


227 

tractor,  the  man  who  took  the  contract  to  carry  the  freight  from  Cheyenne, 
to  Ked  Cloud  agency  or  Spotted  Tail  agency,  may  have  failed  — 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  you  your  theories,  I  am  asking  you  for  facts  ;  are 
you  enabled  to  state  from  your  own  knowledge  whether  the  agent  had 
them  there  and  would  not  distribute  them,  or  whether  he  did  not  have 
them  there,  because  of  the  negligence  of  the  contractor  for  transportation 
to  have  them  there  ? 

A.  I  do  not  think  he  did. 

Q.  Then  it  was  the  fault  of  the  contractor  of  transportation? 

A.  Either  the  contractor  or  somebody  else,  but  not  the  fault  of  the 
agent. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  remaining  at  the  agency  as  trader  only  three  or  four 
days  after  Dr.  Saville  came  there  ;  have  you  any  objections  to  tell  us 
the  circumstances  of  your  leaving  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  was  out  there,  and  I  had  some  whisky  with  me ;  I  had 
about  half  a  gallon,  and  Dr.  Saville  had  some  whisky  at  the  same 
time ;  I  drank  some  in  his  own  tent,  and  some  Indian  got  mad  at  me  and 
took  my  whisky  out  of  my  wagon  ;  I  had  it  wrapped  up  in  a  blanket ; 
some  one  told  him  I  had  it  there;  I  had  just  about  half  a  gallon,  and 
the  Indian  told  me  to  leave.  After  I  got  about  six  or  seven  miles  away 
there  were  three  or  four  hundred  of  them  charged  on  me.  I  was  in  the 
wagon,  and  they  wanted  me  to  go  back  and  give  them  $3  for  hides.  At 
that  time  I  was  paying  only  $2  for  their  beef-hides,  and  I  would  not  pay 
them  $3,  so  they  told  me  to  go  on,  to  leave  the  country,  and  I  went.  I 
made  three  different  affidavits  about  beef  when  I  was  in  Washington, 
but  they  paid  no  attention  to  them.  Myself  and  this  interpreter  I  spoke 
of — Joseph  Bissonett — who  is  dead,  and  Thomas  Reed,  made  affidavits 
when  we  were  in  Washington  about  Dr.  Saville's  way  of  doing  business, 
and  the  Interior  Department  never  took  any  notice  of  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  When  was  this  ? 

A.  The  last  time  I  went  with  Eed  Cloud ;  not  this  last  time — that  is  the 
time  when  I  went  East  with  General  Smith,  with  the  Cheyennes  and 
Arapahoes. 

Q.  And  then  you  say  the  affidavits  were  made  about  Dr.  Saville  and 
his  doings?  ^ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  gave  them  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  We  gave  them  to  Colonel  Walker. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  He  was  then  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  I 
A.  No ;  he  was  then  with  the  Christian  Commission  ;  he  is  the  man 
who  got  shot  in  the  eye. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  your  goads  when  you  were  leaving  Red 
Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  sold  them. 

Q.  Did  you  go  away  without  any  order  fro:n  Dr.  Saville? 

A.  No,  sir ;  Dr.  Saville  ordered  me  away. 

Q.  You  said  the  Indians  ordered  you  away. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  Indians  in  the  first  place  ;  and  the  Doctor  broke  my 
license  and  appointed  somebody  else  in  my  place. 


228 

Q.  What  have  been  your  relations  with  Dr.  Saville  since  then  ? 
A.  Not  very  friendly. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Who  did  Dr.  Saville  appoint  there  after  you  were  removed  1 
A.  Mr.  Deer,  whom  I  had  for  a  clerk,  was  appointed  ;  but  the  first 

man  appointed  was  another  man— a  man  from  Sioux  City  5  I  cannot 

remember  his  name,  and  he  sold  out  to  Frank  Yates. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  your  judgment  is  influenced  by  your  unfriendly  feel 
ing  toward  Dr.  Saville  ? 

A.  Well,  it  may  be  a  little,  you  know,  not  being  friendly  together ; 
but  I  have  said  nothing  more  than  what  is  true,  and  I  will  swear  to  it. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  your  unfriendly  feeling  toward  Dr.  Saville 
don't  influence  your  judgment  about  the  facts  ? 

A.  O,  no,  sir  ;  not  about  the  facts. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HIRAM  B.  KELLEY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  How  long  have  you  resided  in  this  section  of  the  country, 
Mr.  Kelley? 

Answer.  About  fifteen  or  sixteen  years. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  business  chiefly  ? 

A.  I  am  a  freighter  and  stock-raiser. 

Q.  What  is  your  present  business  1 

A.  My  present  business  is  raising  cattle.  I  have  a  ranch  on  the 
Chugg. 

Q.  Are  you  pretty  familiar  with  the  different  kinds  of  cattle  that  they 
have  in  this  section  of  the  country  (l 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  have  you  some  experience  with  reference  to  Texas 
cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  some. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  contracts  for  supplying  the  Government,  either 
the  military  or  the  Indian  department,  with  cattle  ? 

A.  I  had  a  contract  for  two  or  three  years.  This  is  the  third  year  I 
have  been  furnishing  beef  for  the  military  at  this  post. 

Q.  Do  you  iurnish  that  beef  net  weight  or  gross  weight  ? 

A.  Either  one ;  I  have  a  contract  either  way. 

Q.  Well,  you  furnished  beef  on  foot  when  the  military  authorities  here 
require  it  to  take  with  them  on  any  expeditions  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  arrive  at  the  weight  of  the  beef  you  furnish  on  such 
occasions  ? 

A.  We  either  put  them  on  the  scales  or  take  a  few  of  the  average  out 
of  a  herd  and  weigh  them. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  furnished  in  that  way  any  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  Texas  cattle  were  they,  steers  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  steers. 

Q.  Were  there  any  cows  among  them  ? 

A.  Well,  I  have  given  a  few  cows  on  the  block,  but  never  on  the 
hoof. 


229 

Q.  Well,  the  Texas  cattle  you  furnished  on  the  hoof,  about  what  did 
they  average  in  weight! 

A.  Well,  I  have  given  an  average  of  577  pounds  for  13G  head,  and  I 
think  was  a  little  light.  I  think  the  average  would  have  been  about 
GOO  net  weight. 

Q.  That  is  the  average  of  those  you  sold  on  foot ;  how  did  you  get  at 
the  weight  of  those  you  sold  on  the  block? 

A.  We  killed  three  and  weighed  them  on  the  scales  after  they  were 
dressed,  and  averaged  them. 

Q.  A  steer  that  will  weigh  577  pounds  or  600  pounds  net,  what  will  it 
weigh  gross  ? 

A.  About  1,200  pounds. 

Q.  A  Texas  steer  that  will  weigh  1,200  pounds  will  be  about  how  old  * 

A.  Well,  sir,  three-year  olds  or  four-year  olds  might  weigh  that  amount. 

Q.  Those  Texas  cattle  that  will  weigh  that  much  have  been  wintered 
here,  have  they  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Stayed  here  over  one  winter  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  droves  of  Texas  cattle  that  come  up  here,  what 
you  call  in  this  country,  among  the  drovers,  through  cattle  1 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  seen  them. 

Q.  Will  they  average  as  much,  either  gross  or  net,  as  cattle  that  have 
been  wintered  over  here  and  have  been  one  summer  on  the  bunch-grass 
in  this  country  ? 

A.  Some  of  them  that  come  up  here  very  early  and  are  put  011  a  fair 
range  and  get  in  fair  order  before  the  fall,  would  average  that  much. 
When  they  get  up  here  early  in  July  or  August,  they  have  three  or  four 
months  of  fine  weather  and  good  grass  on  which  to  fatten. 

Q.  They  continue  to  fatten  until  how  late  in  the  fall  ? 

A.  Until  after  Christmas,  and  some  of  them  fatten  right  through  the 
winter. 

Q.  These  Texas  cattle  that  are  brought  up  into  this  range  improve 
very  much,  I  understand ;  they  spread  out,  grow  larger  and  heavier, 
and  get  fat  9 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  character  of  the  beef  that  has  been 
furnished  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir;  that  is  something  that  I  know  less  about  than  any 
man  in  the  country.  I  know  what  I  have  heard.  I  never  was  at  the  lied 
Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Cattle  that  you  furnish  to  the  military  department  generally  are 
not  full-blood  Texas  cattle,  are  they? 

A.  Generally,  sir.  I  raise  some  half-breed,  some  American,  and  some 
Texas  cattle. 

Q.  The  Texas  cattle  that  you  furnish  to  the  Army  have  been  kept  over 
here  one  winter  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  the  percentage  of  net  to  gross  varies  ac 
cording  to  the  condition  of  the  cattle — whether  they  are  fat  or  lean  ? 

A.  O,  yes,  it  makes  some  difference  if  they  are  very  fat ;  of  course, 
they  don't  tare  as  much  •  there  is  not  so  much  loss  in  the  offal ;  there  is 
less  percentage  off. 

Q.  In  this  part  of  the  country  you  seem  to  have  established  a  uniform 


230 

rule  of  percentage  at  50  per  cent. ;  whereas  in  onr  country  it  is  different. 
How  is  it  that  you  have  established  such  a  rule  1 

A.  In  your  part  of  the  country  I  suppose  you  have  fatter  cattle — stall- 
fed  cattle;  and  the  percentage  is  not  so  much — only  40  or  45  per  cent. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  But  in  Texas  cattle  the  percentage  is  larger  on  account  of  their 
large  horns  and  hoofs  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  they  are  smaller,  and  they  don't  fatten  up  early. 

Q.  And  the  percentage  is  less  upon  a  large  fat  beeve  than  upon  one  of 
those  poor  ones  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  should  you  judge  to  be  the  average  weight  of  the  smaller 
Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  About  50  per  cent. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  gross  weight  of  an  average  herd  of  Texas 
cattle  as  they  are  driven  up  here,  including  steers  and  cows  ? 

A.  They  are  of  different  ages,  you  know. 

Q.  I  mean  as  they  run,  four-year-old  steers  and  cows  I 

A.  A  good  lot  of  four-year-old  steers  and  cows  ought  to  go  from  900 
to  1,000  pounds. 

Q.  WThat  are  you  getting  for  your  beef  on  the  block  here  ? 

A.  Six  dollars  and  thirty-four  cents  per  100  pounds. 

Q.  What  is  beef  generally  worth  on  the  foot  here ;  cattle  that  will 
average  1,000  pounds  f 

A.  They  generally  sell  at  about  3  cents  per  pound,  gross.  W^hen  you 
buy  them  by  the  lot,  you  buy  them  for  less ;  when  you  buy  four  or  five 
hundred  head,  you  get  them  for  less  than  that. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  LEONARD  HAY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Hay,  what  is  your  rank  and  position  ? 

Answer.  I  am  first  lieutenant  and  adjutant  of  the  Ninth  Infantry. 

Q.  I  believe  you  were  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  November  last  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  there  about  the  first  week  in  November,  about  the 
10th  or  llth  of  the  month. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  an  interview  that  occurred  between  Professor 
Marsh  and  Red  Cloud  and  Red  Dog  about  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  not  at  the  whole  of  the  interview,  but  I  was  there 
a  portion  of  the  time. 

Q.  While  you  were  there  did  you  have  any  opportunity  to  examine, 
or  did  you  notice  the  quality  of,  the  rations  that  were  issued  to  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  The  interview  took  place  in  General  Bradley's  tent,  between  Pro 
fessor  Marsh,  Red  Cloud,  and  Red  Dog.  Red  Cloud  and  Red  Dog  had 
a  portion  of  the  rations,  certain  component  parts  of  the  rations,  which 
they  said  they  had  received  from  the  agent,  and  those  I  saw.  I  saw  two 
samples,  a  sample  of  coffee  and  a  sample  of  tobacco.  Those  were  all  I 
saw. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  issues  of  rations  by  the  agents  to  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  I  did  not,  sir.     I  did  not  go  to  the  agency  at  all. 


231 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  rations  in  the  hands  of  the  Indians  ? 

A.  I  saw  tobacco  in  the  hands  of  lied  Cloud ;  I  saw  the  coffee  which 
lie  had  in  his  hand,  and  which  he  passed  over  to  Professor  Marsh,  and 
it  was  passed  around  to  the  officers  and  the  others  in  the  tent. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  others  besides  the  samples  that  Eed  Cloud  had ; 
did  you  see  any  other  of  those  provisions  in  the  hands  of  the  other 
Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  samples  of  coffee  and  tobacco  which 
you  saw  there  ? 

A.  The  tobacco  I  noticed  particularly,  for  the  reason  that  I  know 
more  about  tobacco  when  it  is  prepared  for  consumption  than  I  do 
about  coffee  in  the  raw  grain.  This  tobacco  which  I  saw  seemed  to  be 
about  one-quarter  plug-tobacco,  and  it  had  neither  the  smell  nor  taste 
of  good  tobacco.  It  seemed  to  be  composed  of  the  sweepings  of  the 
factory,  which  were  fastened  together  by  some  sort  of  viscid  substance. 
It  was  sticky,  clammy,  and  soft ;  it  was  un£t  for  chewing  or  smoking,  par 
ticularly  unfit  for  smoking.  This  sample  of  tobacco  was  passed  around, 
and  Bed  Cloud  had  it  in  his  hand.  When  he  passed  the  plug  I  bent  it, 
and  it  showed  no  fracture,  it  was  so  soft.  This  was  in  cold  weather, 
even  in  that  dry  climate.  The  coffee  which  I  saw  was  quite  a  small 
portion — about  as  much  as  one  might  hold  in  the  hollow  of  his  hand. 
It  seemed  to  be  composed  of  undeveloped  grains  of  coffee  with  a  little 
gravel  in  it  $  they  were  not  full-grown  grains  of  coffee. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  beef-cattle  that  were  issued  there  during  that 
fall? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  the  afternoon  of  the  same  day — I  think  it  was  the  lltli 
of  November — I  was  told  that  a  party  was  going  out  to  see  the  butcher's 
shop,  and  I  did  not  know  for  what  purpose  they  were  going.  I  did  not 
expect  to  criticise  these  things  at  all,  because  I  did  not  think  there  was 
any  investigation  going  on  whatever.  I  was  invited  to  go,  and  accepted 
the  invitation.  We  finally  found  the  butcher's  shop,  and  it  was  kept  by  an 
old  Indian  living  there — a  half-breed — and  it  was  a  long  time  before 
they  got  up  the  herd.  We  were  told  that  all  the  herd  was  composed  of 
seven  head,  the  remainder  of  the  herd.  It  was  a  half-breed  Frenchman 
who  drove  them  up ;  he  told  us  those  were  all  there  were. 

Q.  Was  Agent  Saville  there  at  the  time  f 

A.  No,  sir  $  there  were  two  herders  there.  Red  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog, 
and  another  Indian,  whose  name  I  don't  know,  were  present.  The 
herder  brought  these  cattle  from  the  direction  of  the  agency ;  I  don't 
know  where  he  got  them.  The  snow  was  on  the  ground  and  the  weather 
very  cold.  I  did  not  examine  very  closely  into  them,  only  I  noticed 
the  cattle. 

Q.  A  poor  looking  lot  of  cattle,  were  they  ? 

A.  There  were  seven  head  of  cattle  there,  and  there  were  two  cows 
out  of  seven.  There  was  only  one  which  might  be  called  a  steer,  but  it 
was  not  full  grown  at  all,  and  the  others  were  undersized  and  meager 
in  flesh  ;  they  were  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Poor? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  a  very  poor  lot  of  cattle.  The  herder  was  a  half-breed 
Frenchman,  and  he  said  the  Indians  had  picked  out  the  best.  Bed 
Cloud  said  that  those  were  the  kind  of  cattle  issued  to  them  ordinarily. 
Eed  Dog  said  that  they  were  larger  and  better  cattle  than  had  been 
issued  to  them  previously  on  ordinary  issue  days.  One  of  the  herders 
said  that  they  were  all  the  same  size  as  the  cattle  ordinarily  issued. 
The  other  herder  said  that  the  Indians  had  picked  out  the  best,  and 
these  were  the  refuse. 


232 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  there  had  been  a  larger  issue  on  that  day  t 
A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  an  issue  at  all. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Those  cattle  were  driven  up  from  toward  the  agency  to  the  Indian 
camp  ? 

A.  My  inference  was  that  there  had  been  an  issue  of  cattle,  and  these 
had  been  left— the  other  seven  head  on  hand ;  in  fact,  the  herder  said 
there  were  only  seven  head  of  cattle  on  hand  on  that  date,  the  llth  of 
November. 

Q.  Were  those  herders  the  agency-herders  :  were  they  herding  cattle 
for  the  Indian  agent  or  for  the  Indians  I 

A.  I  cannot  state  positively  ;  I  suppose  they  were  the  agent's  herders. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  agent,  Dr.  Saville,  there  during  that  visit "? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not ;  some  of  the  other  officers  went  up  to  the  agency, 
but  I  did  not.  There  was  an  issue  of  annuity-goods,  I  think,  about  that 
time,  and  I  was  invited  to  go  to  see  it,  but  I  did  not  go. 

Q.  Well,  General  Bradley,  Captain  Mix,  and  yourself  were  there.  Do 
you  remember  the  circumstances  of  your  making  an  estimate  of  the  °ross 
weight  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  my  estimate  was  450  pounds  gross,  just  as  they  stood. 
The  estimate  of  the  other  gentlemen  was  small,  and  the  total  added  up 
and  divided  by  the  number  was,  I  think,  some  358  pounds  gross. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  are  speaking  now  of  the  seven  head  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  We  have  the  date  of  that  occurrence  ;  it  is  the  llth  of  November. 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  opportunity  of  observing  the  working  of  the 
system  of  issuing  rations  to  the  Indians  by  the  agents  and  the  manage 
ment  of  affairs  at  Indian  agencies  generally? 

A.  No,  sir  j  I  had  no  opportunities  of  observing  ;  I  have  been  by  the 
agency  three  times,  but  stayed  only  a  very  short  time ;  in  fact,  I  only 
stayed  there  a  couple  of  days  either  of  the  times  when  I  was  there  :  I 
only  passed  through.  The  first  time  I  went  up  with  General  King  I 
saw  a  large  herd  of  cattle,  that  seemed  to  be  in  the  hands  of  the  con 
tractor,  and  appeared  to  be  going  to  the  agency  to  be  delivered  to  the 
agent.  Those  are  the  only  two  lots  of  cattle  I  ever  saw  there. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  those  with  reference  to  their  size  ? 

A.  It  was  quite  a  large  herd,  probably  200,  more  or  less ;  they  were 
Texas  cattle  $JL  had  a  good  opportunity  at' judging  of  them,  because  they 
were  in  a  canon,  and  we  drove  right  through  them,  and  I  noticed  them 
particularly  ;  they  were  Texas  cattle* 

Q.  Steers  or  cows  ? 

A.  Mostly  steers ;  I  may  have  noticed  a  few  cows  among  them,  but 
they  were  very  few  ;  most  of  them  were  Texas  steers. 

Q.  What  was  their  general  condition  and  size  ? 

A.  They  were  in  good  condition,  but  they  were  were  rather  small.  I 
should  judge  that  the  herd — I  have  no  experience— but,  as  near  as  I  could 
judge,  I  don't  think  they  would  have  weighed  over  G50  pounds  apiece, 
gross  weight. 


233 

Q.  To  average  the  herd  ? 

A.  I  think  they  would  average  fully  that. 

Q.  You  are  not  positive  that  they  were  for  the  agency,  however  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  is  only  a  supposition;  they  could  have  been  intended 
for  no  one  else ;  they  were  going  right  up  to  the  agency ;  they  were 
within  three  or  four  miles  of  the  post  then. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  day  that  was,  lieutenant? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  about  the  1st  or  2d  of  September,  1874. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q,  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  stationed  here  a  year,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Jules  Ecoffee? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a  man  is  he  ? 

A.  I  have  always  regarded  him  as  a  truthful  man. 

Q.  Is  that  the  general  reputation  he  has  in  the  community  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Some  inquiries  were  made  as  to  his  character  by  General 
.King  when  he  first  came  here  and  took  command  of  the  post.  General 
King  was  trying  to  find  and  fix  upon  a  new  site  for  the  Spotted  Tail 
agency,  and  Jules  Ecofifee  gave  him  some  advice,  and  I  remember  that 
he  was  regarded  as  a  truthful  man. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Louis  Eeshaw  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  him  three  times.  I  have  seen  him  around  the  post 
here  three  times. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  him  spoken  of  by  the  people  around  here  who 
know  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  as  a  sober  and  truthful  man. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  If  you  have  any  information  in  regard  to  these  Indian  matters  that 
we  do  not  happen  to  call  out  by  inquiries,  we  would  be  glad  to  have  you 
give  it  to  us. 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not.  I  know  very  little  about  the  management  of 
Indian  affairs,  because  I  have  had  no  opportunity  of  judging  of  facts, 
and  so  far  as  rumors  go  I  pay  no  attention  to  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  When  you  were  speaking  of  those  two  herders,  you  said  one  of  them 
said  that  that  little  drove  of  seven  cattle  was  quite  up  to  the  average, 
while  the  other  differed  from  him.  I  wish  to  ask  you  whether  that 
remark  of  the  herder  was  made  in  response  to  Eed  Dog's  statement,  that 
they  were  smaller  than  they  were  generally  getting,  and  as  a  sort  of  a 
justification  ? 

A.  The  first  herder  who  drove  up  this  little  band  of  cattle  was  on  his 
horse,  and  the  moment  he  got  them  together  he  said,  u  The  Indians  pick 
out  the  best,  they  always  leave  the  worst,"  without  being  questioned  or 
interrogated  at  all,  and  one  of  the  party  asked  Eed  Cloud  and  lied  Dog 
and  the  other  herder,  and  the  other  herder  made  his  statement  in 
answer  to  a  question. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  before  or  after  Eed  Dog  spoke  ? 

A.  He  said  it  afterwards ;  he  was  the  last  one  who  was  questioned, 
but  I  don't  think  he  heard  Eed  Dog's  remark. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Neither  of  the  herders  heard  what  the  Indians  said  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


234 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  One  of  them  said,   "This  is  the  kind  of  cattle  we  are  issuing-"  or 
words  to  that  effect  ? 

A.  He  was  asked  if  these  were  the  kind  of  cattle  usually  issued  by 
the  agent,  and  he  said,  "About  the  same  kind  of  cattle." 

Q.  The  other  remarked  that  the  Indians  had  picked  the  best  ? 

A.  He  volunteered  that  remark  as  soon  as  he  drove  them  up. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  And  then  the  last  herder  who  was  interrogated  said ? 

A.  He  said  they  were  up  to  the  general  average- 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  don'fc  know  the  names  of  those  herders,  do  vou  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  BENJAMIN  G.  McPHAIL. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Doctor,  what  is  your  position  here! 

Answer.  I  am  acting  assistant  surgeon  at  this  post. 

Q.  I  wish  to  ask  you,  from  your  observation,  your  opinion  of  the  aver 
age  weight  of  an  ordinary  herd  of  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  I  am  not  an  expert  at  all  in  estimating  the  weight  of  cattle :  I  never 
paid  much  attention  to  the  subject  until  I  went  to  Arizona,  and  there 
my  attention  was  directed  to  it  by  the  constant  talk  about  the  issue  of 
beef  to  the  Indians.  Beef  for  the  Army  was  supplied  by  the  pound  net, 
and  of  course  there  was  no  trouble  about  that.  At  the  San  Carlos  In 
dian  reservation,  in  Arizona,  I  have  seen  them  issue  cattle  for  ten, 
eleven,  twelve,  and  even  thirteen  hundred,  pounds  that  I  suppose  would 
really  range  from  six  to  eight  hundred  pounds  ;  maybe  an  extra  large 
one  would  go  up  to  nine  hundred  or  one  thousand,  but  to  average  them 
through  they  would  not  weigh  any  more  than  six  hundred  or  eight  hun 
dred  pounds. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  herds  of  Texas  cattle  in  this  section  of  the  country? 

A.  No,  sir  5  except  when  passing  along  the  road  I  saw  two  or  three 
herds  along  the  line  of  the  railroad ;  they  seemed  to  be  mixed  cattle, 
but  I  never  saw  any  of  them  weighed. 

Q.  How  would  the  Texas  cattle  you  have  seen  up  here  in  this  part  of 
the  country  compare  with  the  cattle  you  saw  down  there  in  Arizona  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  they  seemed  to  be  a  similar  class  of  stock ;  but  those 
down  there  were  in  better  condition  than  those  I  have  seen  here;  there 
I  saw  them  in  the  spring  of  the  year,  and  here  late  in  the  summer  or 
early  in  the  fall. 

Q.  I  understand  that  you  have  never  seen  any  cattle  up  here  intended 
for  issue  to  the  Indians? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  know  nothing  of  them  in  this  part  of  the  country  except 
by  report. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON  : 

Q.  But  those  you  have  spoken  of  seeing  were  intended  for  the  Indians? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  in  Arizona  on  the  two  Indian  reservations  which  I  visited. 
Q.  Were  these  that  you  speak  of  as  being  issued  to  the  Indians  Texas 
cattle  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  seemed  to  me  to  be  so.     I  tell  you,  gentlemen,  I  do 


235 

not  consider  myself  as  an  authority  on  cattle  at  all ;  in  the  course  of 
conversation  a  few  evenings  since,  I  just  gave  my  opinion  on  the  matter. 

Q.  What  is  your  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  the  Texas  cattle 
you  have  seen,  taking  them  right  through,  herd  by  herd! 

A.  Seeing  them  there  in  the  spring  of  the  year,  as  I  did,  I  do  not  think 
they  would  ran  over  700  pounds,  taking  them  all  through,  cows  and 
bulls  together.  If  you  should  pick  out  the  bulls,  occasionally  there 
would  be  one  of  them  which  would  weigh  1,000  or  1,200  pounds, 


FORT  LARAMIE,  W.  T., 
Thursday,  August  5,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATIIERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GENEEAL  L.  P.  BEADLEY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  General,  what  is  your  rank  and  position  here? 

Answer.  I  am  lieutenant-colonel  of  the  Ninth  Infantry,  and  at  present 
in  command  of  the  fort. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  in  this  vicinity? 

A.  I  have  been  in  this  department  eight  years ;  most  of  the  time  in 
the  Territory  of  Wyoming. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  being  present  with  Professor  Marsh  at  Bed 
Cloud  agency  at  the  time  that  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  showed  you 
some  rations'? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  last  November. 

Q.  At  that  time  did  you  see  anything  more  than  the  samples 
which  they  showed  you.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  rations  in  the  hands 
of  the  people  to  whom  they  had  been  issued,  or  in  the  Indian  agency 
store  house  for  issue  ? 

A.  No.     I  did  not  go  into  the  store-house. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  in  the  hands  of  the  Indians  any  of  the  supplies, 
but  simply  the  samples  which  were  shown  von? 

A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  seeing  seven  head  of  cattle  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  WTere  those  all  the  cattle  that  you  saw  there  ? 

A.  All  I  saw  as  in  the  hands  of  the  contractor  or  his  men. 

Q.  Yrou  have  repeatedly  been  to  Eed  Cloud  agency,  have  you  not  ? 

A.  No.     I  have  been  there  perhaps  three  or  four  times. 

Q.  On  other  occasions  when  you  were  there  did  you  see  any  beef- 
cattle  ? 

A.  No;  I  think  not.  None  belonging  to  the  contractor;  none  for 
Indian  issue. 

Q.  The  seven  head  of  cattle  that  you  saw  there  were,  as  you  stated  in 
a  certificate  given  to  Professor  Marsh,  estimated  by  yourself  and  Captain 
Mix  and  Lieutenant  Hay,  and  the  average  of  the  estimate  was  358  pounds, 
Do  you  remember  anything  that  was  said  by  the  herders  or  an}T  one  else 
there  as  to  whether  those  cattle  were  a  fair  sample  of  the  cattle  they  had 
been  issuing? 

A.  I  remember  myself  asking  the  question;  and  the  answer  of  the 


236 

herder  was  they  were  a  fair  sample  of  the  cattle  issued;  that  is  to  say, 
he  announced  himself  as  the  herder  employed  by  the  contractor  for  fur- 
nishing  beef  to  the  Indians.  My  recollection  is  that  he  said  they  were 
about  a  fair  sample  in  size. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  occasion  to  know  anything  about  the  general 
management  of  affairs  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Not  from  personal  observation.  I  have  never  asked  any  questions. 
Of  course,  looking  to  information  of  that  kind  there,  I  know  from  talking 
with  the  Indians  more  than  in  any  other  way ;  talking  with  Spotted 
Tail,  and  Eed  Cloud,  and  some  other  of  their  chiefs  and  headmen. 

Q.  How  did  they  express  themselves  ? 

A.  They  made  to  me  very  frequent  and  serious  complaints.  My 
position  here  is  such,  being  in  command  of  the  district  in  which  the 
agencies  are  included,  that  the  Indians  look  upon  me  as  a  man  who 
can  help  them  ;  but  I  cannot  interfere  in  their  affairs.  Yet  they  think  I 
can,  and  they  talk  with  me  and  send  communications  to  me.  I  have 
had  three  or  four  communications  since  New  Year's  from  Spotted  Tail, 
complaining  of  the  quality  and  quantity  of  the  supplies,  and  stating  to 
me  that  his  people  were  starving  for  lack  of  food,  and  I  have  asked 
white  men  who  were  living  with  them,  Nick  Janis  and  others,  and  they 
said  that  some  of  the  Indians  had  starved  last  winter  for  want  of  food*; 
that  they  ate  their  ponies  and  their  dogs.  They  eat  dogs  commonly, 
but  they  would  not  kill  a  pony  unless  they  were  very  hard  up  for  food. 
Spotted  Tail,  when  I  saw  him  in  November,  asked  to  have  a  talk  with 
me.  He  came  to  Bissonett's  ranch,  where  I  was  stopping,  and  we  had 
a  couple  of  hours'  talk,  and  he  told  me  then  they  didn't  get  their  regu 
lar  supplies.  Sometimes  they  were  weeks  without  beef,  and  sometimes 
weeks  without  flour  ;  that  was  last  November.  And,  by  a  message  he 
sent  me  in  the  winter  through  a  man  named  Quigley,  it  would  seem 
they  must  have  been  very  short  of  food.  Eed  Cloud,  at  Eed  Cloud 
agency,  told  me  substantially  the  same  thing  last  November,  and  I 
think  you  will  find  that  there  was  a  long  period  during  this  summer 
when  no  rations  were  issued.  At  least  it  is  so  reported  to  me  by  our  offi 
cers  over  there,  and  one  reason  why  they  notice  these  things  and  report 
them,  is,  that  the  lack  of  supplies  to  stay  the  hunger  of  the  Indians 
makes  the  Indians  restive  and  mischievous,  and  we  are  watching  all  the 
time  to  counteract  their  movements  in  the  way  of  raids,  and  we  notice 
when  they  are  well  fed  the  trouble  is  less  than  when  they  are  hungry. 
Our  officers  over  near  the  agency  report  a  state  of  disquietude  on  the 
part  of  the  Indians,  and  account  for  it  in  that  way.  You  will  see  the 
bearing  of  that. 

Q.  With  the  small  force  you  have  a.t  your  command,  and  the  large 
number  of  Indians  in  the  district,  I  suppose  it  behooves  officers  at  the 
several  posts  to  watch  vigilantly  what  the  Indians  are  doing? 

A.  Certainly ;  and  it  is  their  duty  to  do  so,  and  they  do  it  without 
intending  in  any  way  to  interfere  with  the  conduct  of  Indian  matters. 
As  soon  as  the  Indian  leaves  his  reservation  we  have  a  right  to  strike 
him  ;  we  have  no  right'to  touch  him  on  the  reservation,  until  the  Indian 
Department  calls  upon  us  for  assistance,  and  if  we  follow  the  trail  of 
those  who  are  raiding  and  killing  families,  and  strike  a  band  of  Indians 
raiding  among  the  settlements,  we  can  then  follow  them  on  to  the  res 
ervation,  or  wherever  they  may  go  ;  but  while  they  are  on  the  reserva 
tion,  no  matter  what  may  be  the  cause  of  discontent  among  them,  or 
whatever  may  be  their  preparations  for  raids,  the  military  can  do  noth 
ing  to  prevent  them,  but  must  wait  until  they  commit  some  overt  act. 
We  can  do  nothing  unless  the  Interior  Department  calls  for  it ;  the 


237 

Indians  are  solely  in  the  charge  of  the  agents  and  the  Interior  Department, 
and  our  military  posts  are  stationed  near  the  agencies  for  the  purpose 
of  watching  them,  in  order  to  have  a  force  ready  in  case  it  is  called  for. 

Q.  I  understand,  General,  that  you  know  Louis  Reshaw. 

A.  I  have  known  him  since  1867,  eight  years. 

Q.  What  is  his  general  reputation  among  the  people  of  this  country 
for  truth  and  veracity! 

A.  It  is  good. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  observing  the  specimens  of  tobacco  and  coffee 
that  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  had  on  the  occasion  of  your  visit  to  the 
agency  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  he  gave  me  some  samples,  and  I  examined  them. 

Q.  What  kind  of  articles  were  they  ? 

A.  They  were  poor.  The  coffee  was  mostly  in  small  black  beans.  I 
had  no  sample  of  flour  ;  the  sugar  was,  of  course,  cheap  sugar.  I  saw 
no  particular  fault  with  it.  I  didn't  examine  it  closely.  The  tobacco 
was  very  poor.  He  gave  me  one  of  the  ordinary  plugs  of  it,  and  I  broke 
it  in  half,  and  the  inside  was  entirely  soft,  so  that  by  putting  the  ends 
together  it  would  stick  and  string  out.  It  looked  more  like  black 
molasses  and  tobacco  mixed  together.  Outside  it  was  dry,  but  in  the 
center  it  was  soft — so  soft  that  you  could  not  rub  it  in  your  fingers,  and 
yet  before  it  was  broken  it  looked  tolerably  black  and  dry.  It  was  unfit 
to  smoke.  I  don't  think  it  would  burn  until  it  was  picked  apart  and 
dried  thoroughly. 

Q.  The  Indians,  I  believe,  use  tobacco  chiefly,  if  not  entirely,  for 
smoking? 

A.  O,  yes;  entirely  for  smoking.  I  never  knew  one  of  them  to  chew 
tobacco.  They  are  great  smokers.  Smoking  is  a  business  with  the  Indian  ; 
he  never  has  a  talk  but  he  smokes.  Smoking  is  a  sort  of  religious  rite 
with  them.  When  they  have  a  council  they  point  to  the  four  quarters  of 
the  heavens,  and  then  they  light  their  pipes  and  take  a  couple  of  whiffs 
and  pass  the  pipes  around. 

Q.  When  you  were  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  in  November,  did  you  have 
any  means  of  ascertaining  with  any  degree  of  certainty  the  number  of 
Indians  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  not  then  ;  but  we  have  among  ourselves  an  estimate  of  the 
number  of  the  Sioux — those  bauds  of  Sioux  that  are  over  there, 
the  Brules,  the  Ogallallas,  and  the  Minneconjoux.  The  Ogallalas  and 
Bed  Cloud's  men.  We  make  an  estimate  of  the  number  we  would  have 
to  fight  if  the  Indians  broke  out,  and  of  course  make  a  calculation  of 
the  entire  number  upon  the  same  basis. 

Q.  About  how  many  do  you  estimate  the  number  at  the  Red  Cloud 
agency? 

A.  My  estimate  is  that  there  are  not  over  six  or  seven  thousand  In 
dians.  Ishoiild  say  not  more  than  six  thousand  of  the  Red  Cloud  men, 
from  all  the  information  I  have,  and  I  have  known  them  for  eight 
years.  The  first  year  I  was  out  here,  we  were  fighting  them  all  the  year. 
Before  the  treaty  of  1808  I  was  at  the  extreme  northern  post,  and  we 
knew  what  their  fighting  strength  was,  because  at  times  we  met  the 
whole  of  them,  and  I  don't  think  they  have  increased  in  numbers  at  all 
since  then.  I  think  their  mode  of  life  prevents  their  increase.  I  don't 
think  their  mode  of  life  favors  increase.  There  are  about  1,200  fighting 
men  among  the  Ogallallas.  The  Brules  do  not  number  probably  over 
4,000  altogether.  I  have  no  data  for  those  figures  ;  it  is  simply  our  esti 
mate,  and  it  is  an  estimate  in  which  a  great  many  Army  officers  agree 
with  me ;  but  I  know  nothing  about  the  actual  counts.  I  have  seen 


238 

several  large  villages  ;  that  is  the  estimate  upon  which  I  would  be  will 
ing  to  fight  them.  The  MinDeconjoux  are  smaller  than  the  Brules.  I 
don't  think  they  will  reach  4,000.  Now,  the  Oncpapas  live  in  the  Yel 
lowstone  and  Tongue  Eiver  region;  they  are  wild;  they  never  come 
down  here.  I  don't  believe  they  number  over  1,500  or  2,000  altogether. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Where  are  the  Oncpapas  fed  f 

A.  They  never  visit  the  agency  at  all ;  they  keep  aloof;  and  part  of  the 
Miuueconjoux  do  not  come  down  for  food,  but  part  of  them  are  fed 
here  at  lied  Cloud  agency.  In  1867  and  1868,  when  we  were  at  war 
with  the  Sioux  in  the  upper  country,  Eed  Cloud  commanded  the  whole 
of  the  hostile  forces.  He  had  Ogallallas,  Miuneconjoux,  Oncpapas,  and 
with  them  the  Northern  Cheyennes  and  the  Arapahoes.  They  never 
turned  out  more  than  2,300  men  in  any  one  nlovement.  Of  course  that 
was  not  their  entire  fighting  strength,  but  it  was  all  they  could  get 
together  at  one  time  ;  they  had  to  leave  some  men  in  the  villages  and 
sent  some  out  to  hunt. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  is  the  number  of  the  Northern  Cheyenues  and  the  Arapa 
hoes  ? 

A.  It  is  small.  I  don't  think  the  Cheyennes  have  more  than  2,000 
people  up  here,  and  the  Arapahoes  more  than  1,000  ;  but  there  are  more 
Cheyenues  now ;  a  great  many  of  the  Northern  Cheyeunes  have  come 
up  here  this  spring  ;  there  are  several  hundred  up  here  now.  They  are 
the  ones  that  are  making  trouble  this  summer,  and  that  stole  the  stock  on 
Laramie  Plains  in  June.  They  are  up  on  the  Powder  Eiver.  Judge 
Kelley,  of  Pennsylvania,  had  a  herd  of  cattle  up  there,  and  they  stole 
them  all. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Will  the  General  be  kind  enough  to  state  his  estimate  of  the  total 
number  of  Indians  fed  at  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  ? 

A.  I  can  only  say  what  I  have  already  said,  Professor.  I  have  no 
other  means  of  knowing  than  as  I  have  told  you.  The  Ogallallas  are  fed 
at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  part  of  the  Minnecoujoux  and  part  of 
the  Cheyennes  are  fed  there,  though  my  impression  is  that  the  Chey 
eunes  have  no  legal  right  to  go  there  for  rations. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  about  the  Arapahoes  ? 

A.  Some  of  them  may  get  rations  there,  but  they  have  no  business 
there. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  The  papers  at  the  agency  will  show  just  what  In 
dians  are  supplied  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  have  your  statement  of  what  occurred  in  your  pres 
ence  when  Professor  Marsh  was  there.  Just  state  it  in  your  own  way,  so 
that  we  may  have  the  opportunity  of  comparing  your  account  with  other 
statements. 

A.  Eed  Cloud  came  to  my  tent,  near  Camp  Eobinson,  about  the  10th 
or  12th  of  November.  Professor  Marsh  was  in  my  tent,  and  I  sent  for 
Mr.  Ecoffee,  who  was  then  beef-contractor  at  Camp  Robinson,  and  for 
John  Nelson,  an  interpreter,  whom  I  had  formerly  employed  ;  and  several 
officers  were  present,  among  them  Captain  Mix  and  Lieutenant  Hay,  the 
adjutant  of  the  post.  Eed  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  were  there  together,  and 


239 

made  statements  to  this  effect — the  one  talked  after  the  other,  first 
Eed  Cloud  and  then  Ked  Dog,  and  what  they  said  was  interpreted  by 
Ecoffee  and  Nelson — Red  Cloud  and  Eed  Dog  complained  that  they 
were  poorly  supplied  with  food,  and,  after  making  a  statement  to  that 
effect,  asked  me  to  send  to  the  President,  and  tell  him  what  they 
said.  They  said  that  if  I  would  promise  to  do  it  that  the  word 
would  reach  the  President,  but  if  they  made  complaint  to  the 
agent,  they  did  not  believe  it  would  reach  the  Great  Father  at  Wash 
ington.  They  complained  of  the  poor  quality  of  food — beef,  flour,  sugar, 
tobacco,  &c.,  and  of  insufficient  quantities,  and  that  their  people  and 
children  were  hungry  and  crying  for  food ;  that  they  had  relied  for  a 
good  while  upon  the  Government  to  feed  them,  and  relied  upon  it  still  to 
do  so  $  that  they  had  given  up  their  old  huutiug-grounds  on  the  Repub 
lican  River,  and  the  Government  didn't  feed  them.  Both  Red  Cloud 
and  Red  Dog  made  this  statement.  I  told  them  I  would  send  word  back 
to  the  President,  and  I  did  send  forward  a  report  to  General  Ord,  com 
manding  the  department,  at  Omaha,  and  I  told  them  also  that  Professor 
Marsh,  who  w7as  with  me  there,  wras  going  East  soon.  They  asked  me  if 
he  was  a  friend  of  the  President,  and  I  told  them  that  he  was,  and  I 
would  ask  him  to  go  to  Washington  and  state  their  complaints  person 
ally  ;  and  they  said  that  they  would  be  very  glad  to  have  me  do  so. 
Professor  Marsh  then  promised  that  he  would  go  to  Washington  and 
carry  this  message  to  the  President. 

Q.  You  were  saying  that  they  asked  you  if  Professor  Marsh  was  a 
friend  of  the  President's. 

A.  He  recognized  him  as  a  citizen,  being  merely  a  transient  traveler. 
I  told  him  who  he  was;  that  he  was  a  teacher  in  the  East,  who  had  come 
out  here  looking  for  bones,  and  that  when  he  went  back  he  would  go  to 
Washington  and  carry  these  messages.  That  was  the  substance  of  the 
conversation.  Of  course  it  was  a  lengthy  talk,  as  all  talks  with  the  In 
dians  are.  There  is  a  great  de  al  repetition  in  them,  but  the  pith  of 
the  conversation  was  the  insufficiency  and  inferior  quality  of  the  supplies. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  said  particularly  about  the  beef  ? 

A.  Beef  was  mentioned  with  th  ose  other  articles,  and  they  complained 
that  they  did  not  have  enough  of  that.  Meat  is  the  main  reliance  of  the 
Indians. 

Q.  Did  they  say  anything  abo  ut  the  size  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Red  Cloud  asked  me  the  next  day  to  look  at  the  cattle. 
We  went  out  next  day,  and  looked  at  those  cattle  with  him  ;  Red  Dog 
went  along  ;  Red  Dog  is  one  of  the  headmen. 

Q.  He  showed  you  the  seven  cattle  I 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  seven  were  all  that  were  on  the  range. 

Q.  What  did  they  look  like  ?    Give  us  your  description  of  them. 

A.  They  were  small  young  steers  and  cows. 

Q.  Something  was  said  about  their. being  lame,  I  believe;  of  their 
legs  being  broken  ? 

A.  Some  of  them  were  lame,  as  cattle  will  be  frequently  out  here — 
foot-sore  from  travel.  They  were  thin  in  flesh  and  small  in  size,  and 
there  were  eight  gentlemen  there  who  made  estimates ;  three  of  them 
were  Army  officers  and  one  a  beef-contractor  to  the  Army.  The  officers 
were  all  accustomed  to  handling  beef  at  the  posts,  and  know  what 
Army  beef  is,  and  accustomed  to  see  large  numbers  of  cattle  on 
the  ranges.  Professor  Marsh,  the  marshal  of  the  Territory,  who  was 
up  here  at  the  time,  who  is  himself  a  stock-owner,  and  the  paymaster, 
and  a  gentleman  who  was  with  the  paymaster,  whose  name  I  now  for 
get  $  there  were  eight,  all  western  men,  who  estimated  the  average 


240 

weight  of  tbat  little  band.  Those  estimates  are  averaged,  and  that  is 
the  way  those  figures  are  reached.  My  own  opinion  was  then  and  is 
now  that  it  was  very  large;  iny  estimate  was  very  much  less. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  know  whether  you  were  present  on  tbe  next  day, 
the  14th.  I  think  it  was,  when  the  distribution  of  annuity  goods  was 
made? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  had  gone  to  Spotted  Tail  agency. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  of  the  facts  in, that  connection  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  any  of  those  goods  ;  I  did  not  see  any  annuity  goods 
in  store. 

Q,  In  driving  cattle  from  the  Platte  (where  I  understand  they  are 
generally  herded)  to  the  agency,  what  is  the  distance  on  that  route  be 
tween  water? 

A.  I  cannot  tell  you  exactly,  but  it  is  a  regular  road  for  trains. 

Q.  About  a  dozen  miles  ? 

A.  From  twelve  to  twenty ;  it  is  a  very  well-watered  country. 

Q.  Well  watered  for  this  country  ? 

A.  I  mean  well  watered  for  traveling,  where  you  can  get  water  every 
twenty  miles.  If  you  can  get  water  morning  'and  night,  you  are  well 
off. 

Q.  Suppose  an  ox  was  watered  in  the  morning  and  then  driven  dur 
ing  the  daj7,  how  much  water  would  it  drink  at  night1? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  Under  those  circumstances  stock  won't  drink 
more  than  once  a  day.  Our  horses  won't  drink  more  than  once  a 
day  on  the  march ;  we  usually  break  camp  early  in  the  morning,  and  if 
they  won't  drink  then,  they  get  no  water  until  night;  and  it  is  just  so 
with  cattle. 

Q.  How  much  will  they  take  when  they  come  to  drink  ? 

A.  They  will  take  a  big  drink  then.  A  horse,  at  the  end  of  his  day's 
march,  will  drink  two  buckets  full  and  more  at  a  time.  As  soon  as  we 
go  into  camp  they  go  for  water,  and  they  will  take  several  drinks;  but 
if  you  tie  a  horse  up,  as  I  do  my  own  horses,  (I  have  them  picketed,  and 
a  man  brings  them  water,)  they  will  take  two  buckets  full  of  water  at 
once,  and  after  a  while  they  want  more.  An  ox  will  drink,  I  suppose, 
more  than  a  horse. 

Q.  I  notice  in  your  Army  contract  for  beef  that  you  do  not  allow  the 
cattle  to  be  watered  within  twelve  hours  of  the  time  they  are  weighed. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  you  understand  the  reason  of  that  ? 

Q.  Well,  I  suppose  I  do. 

A.  It  is  simply  because  we  don't  want  to  weigh  the  water. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  such  precaution  is  taken  in  the  supply 
of  beef  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Xo,  I  don't ;  1  never  saw  an  issue  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  is  a  matter  of  knowledge  in  the  country 
that  that  is  the  practice  there  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  it  is  or  not;  I  have  never  had  occasion  to 
observe  it. 

Q.  Would  you  think  one  hundred  pounds  in  weight  of  water  would 
be  an  unusual  quantity  for  an  ox  to  take? 

A.  I  don't  think  it  would  "be  excessive. 

Q.  What  do  we  call  the  weight  of  liquids,  twelve  pounds  to  the  gal 
lon  ?  My  impression  is  that  first-quality  molasses  weighs  twelve  pounds 
to  the  gallon,  and  I  think  water  weighs  about  the  same. 

A.  A  gallon  of  water,  I  should  think,  would  weigh  twelve  pounds  ;  it 
is  a  long  time  since  I  was  at  school.  You  have  noticed  horses  which 
have  been  without  water  for  a  long  time,  and  you  know  how  greedily  they 


241 

will  drink,  and  of  course  there  is  no  restraint  on  animals,  and  when  they 
drink  under  these  circumstances,  when  they  have  been  without  food  for 
a  long  time  on  the  road,  and  their  stomachs  are  empty,  they  take  in  a 
great  quantity  of  water.  Our  horses  will  not  graze  until  night;  they  will 
rest  during  the  day  and  not  graze  until  the  cool  of  the  evening,  and  I 
think  one  reason  of  this  is  that  their  stomachs  are  full  of  water.  There 
is  one  thing  that  I  will  say  with  reference  to  beef;  I  say  that  no  con 
tractor  who  furnishes  beef  to  the  agency  to  be  fed  to  the  Indians  can 
furnish  it  any  cheaper  than  the  Army  contractor  furnishes  good  beef;  of 
course  the  contracts  are  for  good  beef  always.  Now,  I  claim  that  we 
buy  beef  in  the  Army  as  cheaply  as  it  can  be  bought  ;  and  you  can  as 
certain  easily  what  the  Army  prices  are  if  you  will  write  to  General  Haw 
kins,  the  chief  commissary  at  Omaha;  he  will  giv^e  the  prices  paid  at 
every  post  in  this  part  of  the  country. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  got  that  there. 

WITNESS.  And  if  you  compare  the  prices  you  will  see  the  difference 
in  the  prices  paid  for  Army  beef  and  Indian  beef. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q  When  your  beef  is  furnished  on  the  block  you  give  about  6J  cents 
for  it,  but  you  reject  the  necks  and  shanks  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  necks,  and  from  4  to  8  inches  on  the  shanks. 

Q.  And  in  paying  for  the  beef  you  pay  only  what  you  receive  '? 

A.  That  is  all. 

Q.  And  you  require  the  animal  to  weigh  so  much  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Estimating  the  beef  by  the  known  weight  of  tlie  an:mal  after  it  is 
killed  ? 

A.  We  allow  one-half  shrinkage. 

Q.  If  you  were  going  to  buy  cattle  on  the  hoof  for  a  march,  for  an  ex 
pedition,  how  would  you  buy  them  ? 

A.  The  contractor  agrees  to  furnish  whatever  cattle  we  want,  on  the 
hoof  or  on  the  block,  and  the  price  is  fixed  for  each  contract,  so  much 
gross  and  so  much  on  the  block,  and  part  of  them  are  weighed,  and  some 
experts,  usually  a  board  of  Army  officers,  are  appointed  to  inspect  the 
cattle  to  see  whether  they  are  up  to  the  contract;  whether  they  are  in 
proper  condition  as  to  flesh,  and  of  the  proper  size,  and  to  weigh  a  fair 
number  of  average  size  and  estimate  the  average  weight  of  the  herd  by 
that  number. 

Q.  And  you  require  that  the  cattle  shall  not  drink  within  twelve 
hours  before  that  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  think  that  is  the  provision. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  saw  the  contract  last  night  in  the  hands  of  Mr.  Kelly. 

WITNESS.  There  is  another  thing  in  connection  with  beef  that  is  im 
portant :  the  smaller  the  animal  you  kill  the  greater  is  the  difference  be 
tween  the  gross  weight  and  the  net  weight,  and  that  is  one  reason  why 
we  require  steers  of  about  1,000  pounds,  because  they  will  come  to  the 
block  with  a  greater  percentage  of  beef  than  smaller  animals.  If  you 
buy  a  herd  of  light-weight  small  animals  you  will  get  a  less  percentage 
of  meat  than  if  you  buy  a  herd  of  larger  animals ;  so  it  is  to  the  interest 
of  all  people  buying  cattle  to  buy  them  large. 

Q.  It  is  claimed  here  by  the  contractors  that  it  is  to  their  interest  to 
furnish  large  cattle.  Do  you  understand  that  to  be  so? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     There  is  a  saving  in  the  handling,  in  killing,  in  issuing, 
if  in  nothing  else. 
16  I  F 


242 

Q.  That  is  upon  the  presumption  that  they  get  paid  only  for  their 
weight! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  they  make  more  money  on  the  offal,  on  the  tallow 
and  hide.  Hides  sell  by  weight  as  well  as  tallow. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  whether  or  not,  since  you  have  been  in  command  of 
the  post,  if  any  considerable  amount  of  transportation  for  Red  Cloud 
agency  has  passed  through  or  near  Fort  Larauiie  ? 

A.  Only  a  small  number  of  teams  pass  through  here,  and  then  only 
during  the  season  of  high  water  in  the  Platte,  when  the  ferry  here  was  the 
only  means  of  crossing  the  Platte,  some  six  or  eight  weeks ;  that  is,  in 
June  and  July.  It  may  have  commenced  this  year  in  April.  I  call  the 
distance  ninety  miles  from  Cheyenne  to  this  place,  but  I  think  the  Army 
contractor  estimates  it  at  a  little  more.  It  is  one  hundred  and  sixty- 
three  miles  from  Cheyenne  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  by  the  way  of  Fort 
Laramie,  according  to  my  estimate;  but  the  next  man  may  estimate  it 
differently.  This  whole  road  has  been  measured  by  the  odometer,  and 
you  will  find,  I  think,  at  Camp  Robinson,  near  Red  Cloud  agency,  the 
odometer  measurements  ;  but  the  odometer  is  a  very  unreliable  instru 
ment.  You  can  scarcely  get  the  same  distance  unless  it  is  measured 
three  or  four  times.  It  varies  sometimes  six  or  eight  miles  in  a  hundred. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Your  attention  has  been  called  upon  more  than  one  occasion  to 
the  condition  of  the  Indians  in  their  destitution  of  supplies.  Did  your 
observation  or  conversation  with  the  Indians,  or  anything  else,  enable 
you  to  form  any  opinion  as  to  what  was  the  source  of  this  evil,  of  this 
destitution  ;  whether  it  sprung  from  the  inattention  of  the  Indian  agent 
or  of  the  contractor  for  transportation,  or  the  want  of  appropriations  by 
Congress  ?  Can  you  give  us  any  idea,  as  far  as  your  observation  ex- 
t  ended,  as  to  the  source  of  the  evil  ?  It  seems  to  be  a  great  one. 

A.  It  arises  frequently,  I  think,  from  the  failure  of  the  contractor  to 
/  e  this  supplies  at  the  agency  in  time.  I  mean  the  freight  contractor. 
There  may  be  very  reasonable  excuses  at  times,  such  as  bad  weather, 
lor  instance,  which  he  could  not  foresee,  and  which  would  prevent  his 
reaching  his  destination  on  time.  I  think  that  is  a  frequent  source  of 
the  trouble  in  the  lack  of  supplies.  I  don't  know  anything  about  what 
the  appropriations  are  for  these  different  bands  of  Indians.  Therefore 
I  don't  know  whether  the  Government  is  blamable  for  any  deficiency 
except  in  the  matter  of  enforcing  contracts.  If  we  make  a  contract  for 
the  Army  and  the  contractor  fails  to  fulfill  it,  we  hold  him  responsible. 
The  Indian  is  not  treated  as  white  men  are  treated. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  difficulty  on  account  of  the  failure  to  deliver 
supplies  to  the  Army  ? 

A.  Very  rarely.  I  have  known  such  failures,  but  they  are  very  few 
indeed.  There  is  another  thing  that  accounts  for  the  Indians  being 
short  of  supplies :  The  Indian  is  a  very  improvident  fellow,  and  if  you 
furnish  him  with  ten  days'  supplies  to-day,  he  very  often  will  not  have  a 
mouthful  at  the  end  of  five  days.  He  does  not  take  care  of  his  property. 
An  Indian  may  be  hungry  though  you  feed  him  well,  for  he  will  eat  five 
days'  supplies  in  three;  but  that  does  not  account  for  all  the  deficiency, 
although  I  think  the  Indians  are  learning,  by  this  system  of  being  fed  by 
the  Government  and  by  intercourse  with  the  white  men,  to  apportion 
their  food  to  the  number  of  days.  I  don't  think  that  evil  is  as  great  as 
it  was  formerly. 

Q.  You  saw  that  specimen  of  tolacco  that  has  been  mentioned.    I 


243 

don't  now  speak  of  the  quality  of  that  particular  article  of  tobacco ;  but 
is  it  your  opinion  that  that  general  kind  of  tobacco  is  the  proper  kind  to 
be  distributed  among  the  Indians  for  smoking  purposes? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not  such  tobacco  as  we  would  use  for  smoking  and 
as  the  Indian  uses  it  entirely  for  smoking,  I  think  that  kind  of  article  is 
a  bad  selection,  conceding  it  to  be  sound. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  whether  it  frequently  becomes  necessary 
for  you  to  consult  with  the  officers  of  the  Indian  Department  in  your 
district  with  regard  to  the  management  of  Indian  affairs  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  we  never  do  it. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  copies  of  those  communications  of  Spotted  Tail 
that  you  spoke  of,  if  they  should  be  desired  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  now  whether  I  can  or  not,  for  I  may  not  have  pre 
served  them.  I  will  see,  and  if  I  can  find  them,  I  will  hand  them  to 
you  when  you  come  back. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  General,  does  your  experience  enable  you  to  suggest  any  check 
that  might  be  imposed  upon  the  present  system  at  the  agency,  by  which 
more  certainty  could  be  obtained  in  the  distribution  of  those  annuity 
goods,  and  supplies?  It  seems  they  are  distributed  now  without  any 
check  upon  the  agent,  so  far  as  I  can  see,  except  his  own  honesty  and 
integrity. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  decidedly  that  you  need  a  system  that  will  provide 
for  close  watching  and  better  management.  Where  there  are  several 
thousand  people  to  be  fed,  large  amounts  of  goods  to  be  issued  to  these 
people,  blankets  and  clothing  of  all  sorts,  it  involves  a  great  deal  of 
money,  and  as  a  business  operation  there  should  be  somebody  to  see  if 
that  property  is  delivered  at  the  proper  time,  and  if  it  is  not  delivered, 
that  the  contractor  is  held  responsible  in  money  for  the  failure,  and  when 
issued,  that  they  should  be  issued  on  a  system  that  would  provide  for 
the  checks  that  you  would  apply  to  any  other  business— such  as  a  bank 
or  any  other  business.  No  one  man  in  the  Army,  no  one  man  in  a  bank, 
no  one  man  in  a  railroad  company,  has  the  handling  and  disbursing  and 
accounting  for  half  a  million  dollars  without  any  check.  There  is  more 
than  one  man  concerned  in  that  operation  from  first  to  last,  and  respon 
sible,  so  that  if  one  man  makes  a  mistake  or  an  improper  use  of  the 
money,  there  is  some  one  who  would  know  it  besides  himself. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Can  you  state  the  distance,  by  the  usually  traveled  road  for  freight 
ers,  between  Cheyenne  and  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  road  was  measured  by  an  Army  officer  last  winter. 
It  is  eighty  miles  from  Cheyenne  to  the  crossing  at  Jauis's  ranch,  thirty 
miles  below  here.  The  survey  was  discontinued  then  on  account  of  the 
extremely  cold  weather;  but  you  can  ascertain  the  distance  from  Janis's 
ranch  to  Eed  Cloud  agency.  It  is  commonly  called  seventy-five  miles. 
Janis's  ranch  is  at  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  It  is  further  from  that  crossing  than  it  is  from  here  to  Red  Cloud? 

A.  I  think  it  is.  The  Platte  River  makes  a  great  deal  of  southing 
for  the  easting,  so  that  the  further  you  go  in  that  direction  the  further 
is  the  line. 

Q.  But  not  exceeding1  one  hundred  and  fifty -five  miles,  according  to 
your  estimate? 

A.  I  think  not. 


244 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Monday,  August  9,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman,  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  EOYvLAND. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Of  what  part  of  the  country  are  you  a  native.  Mr.  Row 
land  ? 

Answer.  I  am  a  native  of  the  State  of  Missouri. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  Indian  country? 

A.  Since  1840. 

Q.  What  tribe  of  Indians  have  you  been  chiefly  with  during  that 
time  ? 

A.  The  Cheyennes  and  Sioux. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  vicinity  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  been  hete  since  it  was  first  started.  I  came  here  two 
months  after  Dr.  Saville  came  here.  I  forget  exactly  the  day  of  the 
month  I  came  here  ;  it  was  about  the  1st  of  October. 

Q.  Have  you  been  in  this  vicinity  pretty  much  ever  since  ? 

A.  Ever  since  ;  and  I  have  been  employed  here  more  or  less  during 
that  time. 

Q.  You  are  interpreter  for  the  Cheyennes,  are  you  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  the  Sioux  language  ? 

A.  I  understand  the  Sioux  pretty  well,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  here  in  November,  1874,  the  time  that  Professor  Marsh 
was  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  issue  of  beef  about  the  8th  or  14th  of 
November,  1874  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been  at  every  beef-issue;  I  guess  I  have  not 
missed  one  since  I  have  been  here.  It  is  part  of  my  business  to  be  here 
to  interpret  for  the  Indians  in  receiving  their  beef. 

Q.  As  you  have  seen  all  these  issues  of  beef,  generally,  were  the  cat 
tle  issued  afc  that  time  of  similar  quality  to  those  issued  before  and 
since  f 

A.  Well,  yes;  I  don't  think  the  way  the  beef  has  run,  as  a  general 
thing,  (except  about  two  issues  last  winter,  during  that  cold  weather, 
when  it  was  a  little  thin  and  poor,)  that  they  have  been  any  different. 
Most  of  the  time  we  have  had  what  we  call  good  beef  here. 

Q.  Do  they  weigh  the  beeves  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  of  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  every  head. 

Q.  Well,  the  beeves  that  have  usually  been  delivered,  would  they 
always  average  about  the  same  weight? 

A.  Well,  yes  ;  I  think  they  would  vary  very  little. 

Q.  Were  the}'  exclusively  steers,  or  were  there  some  cows  among 
them  ? 

A.  Some  cows  mixed  with  the  steers ;  I  cannot  say  how  they  would 
run — what  proportion  there  were  of  cows  to  steers;  I  never  paid  any 
attention  to  that. 

Q.  You  could  not  say  whether  there  would  be  more  steers  than  cows  ? 

A.  I  think,  perhaps,  there  would  be  sometimes  more  steers  and  some- 


245 

times  more  cows ;  they  would  vary  in  different  issues.  There  was  a 
part  of  the  time  last  winter  when  we  had  almost  all  steers. 

Q.  Were  any  of  those  beeves  that  you  saw  issued  at  that  time,  or  at 
other  times,  yearlings  and  two-year-olds  ? 

A.  They  used  to  bring  in  some  small  yearlings,  but  they  did  not  issue 
them  as  beef.  I  believe  Mr.  Bosler  threw  them  in. 

Q.  By  throwing  them  in,  you  mean  just  threw  them  in  without  weigh 
ing  them,  or  making  any  charge  for  them  ? 

A/  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  manner  of  weighing  those  beeves,  as  I  understand,  is  to  drive 
the  cattle  through  from  one  corral  to  another,  and  between  those  two 
corrals  are  the  scales,  and  there  they  are  weighed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  passing  through  from  one  corral  to  another,  if  there  were  any 
yearlings,  would  not  they  go  on  the  scales  and  be  weighed  too  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  heard  the  clerk  speak  of  deducting  the  weight  of 
the  yearlings;  at  least  that  is  the  way  I  understood  it.  They  were  not 
considered  beef. 

Q.  Do  your  remember  anything  of  a  circumstance,  about  November  or 
December,  of  some  seven  head  of  cattle  being  left  over  and  issued  to 
the  Indians  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  were  six  or  eight  here  ;  they  were  taken  out  of  the 
herd,  and  I  guess  those  were  very  thin  cattle — too  poor  to  issue ;  and  I 
think  they  sent  them  up  to  the  herd.  I  don't  know  in  fact  what  they 
did  with  them.  It  was  the  time  that  Professor  Marsh  was  here. 

Q.  After  the  cattle  are  turned  over  by  the  contractor  to  the  agent 
they  are  not  all  immediately  issued,  but  some  are  sent  to  the  herd-camp 
for  future  issues  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  have  some  on  hand  most  of  the  time — more  or  less  : 
sometimes  enough  for  two  or  three  issues ;  at  another  time  there  will  be 
just  a  small  quantity  left  over  the  last. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  weighed  any  of  this  beef  yourself,  or  seen  it 
weighed  ? 

A.  I  never  weighed  a  hoof  of  it  myself. 

Q.  And  never  saw  it  weighed  so  that  you  knew  the  weight;  saw  the 
figures  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  you  could  not  say  what  would  be  the  weight  of  the  cat 
tle  I 

A.  I  could  not,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Who  does  weigh  them  ? 
A.  Mr.  Gibbons,  the  clerk,  most  of  the  time. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  all  the  cattle  are  weighed  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  are  all  weighed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  noticing  during  last  fall  anything  of  the 
quality  of  the  flour  that  was  issued  to  the  Indians  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  last  fall,  when  Mr.  Bevier  came  here,  I  went  through  the 
commissary  with  him,  and  examined  the  flour  and  everything  that  was 
in  the  commissary.  I  forget  exactly  what  time  that  was.  We  examined 
the  flour,  and  found  most  of  it  to  be  pretty  fair  flour  ;  there  were  some 
sacks  in  which  the  flour  was  a  little  dark.  When  Professor  Marsh  was 


246 

here  I  do  not  remember;  I  could  not  say  exactly,  what  kind  of  fiour  was 
here,  I  do  not  remember  noticing  it  at  all. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  at  any  time  during  last  fall  or  winter  of  seeing, 
in  the  Indians'  tepees,  or  in  the  commissary,  or  anywhere  about  here,  any 
flour  that  struck  you  as  being  of  any  particular  mark  or  grade,  either 
good  or  bad  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  remember  at  one  time  there  was  some  flour  fetched  here 
that  got  wet  crossing  the  Platte ;  the  driver  said  so. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  time  that  was  ? 

A.  Last  fall. 

Q.  During  last  fall  and  winter  and  last  spring  did  you  hear  any 
talking  among  the  Indians,  Cheyennes,  or  Sioux,  or  any  of  the  others — 
did  you  hear  them  grumbling  about  the  quality  of  the" flour  ? 

A.  I  never  did,  sir.  All  I  heard  them  grumbling  about  was  not 
getting1  enough. 

Q.  Do  you  see  and  talk  to  the  Indians  generally  a  good  deal  about 
the  agency  ? 

A.  O  yes,  sir ;  every  day,  more  or  less. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  complain  to  any  one  about  the  quality  of 
the  coffee  ? 

A.  I  heard  them  giurnbling  about  the  sugar — the  brown  sugar  ;  they 
would  rather  have  white  sugar.  I  never  heard  them  grumble  about  the 
coffee. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  talking  about  the  tobacco! 

A.  Yes,  sir  \  I  heard  them  speaking  often  about  the  tobacco.  As  a 
general  thing  they  do  not  like  the  kind  of  tobacco  they  get  here.  They 
say  it  is  not  good  for  anything;  that  they  cannot  smoke  it. 

Q.  Your  long  acquaintance  with  the  Indians  enables  you  to  judge  what 
use  the  Indian  makes  of  tobacco? 

A.  Smoking,  as  a  general  thing ;  very  few  of  them  chew  it.  But  there 
has  been  some  good  tobacco ;  there  have  been  all  kinds.  One  kind 
would  notdo  to  smoke  very  well,  for  it  was  too  wet.  [Sample  of  the  tobac 
co  shown.]  That  is  the  kind  I  speak  of — short  plug;  it  is  very  damp  to 
bacco  and  not  good  for  smoking;  but  the  long  plug  is  good.  It  is  the 
kind  of  tobacco  we  used  to  get  from  the  traders,  in  the  early  days,  to 
smoke. 

Q.  Do  the  Indians  generally  use  flour  a  great  deal? 

A.  They  are  getting  to  use  it  a  great  deal.  They  use  as  much  again 
HOW  as  they  did  three  years  ago ;  three  years  ago  they  had  not  got  used 
to  eating  bread ;  but  now  their  children  and  families  are  getting^  like 
the  whites,  to  use  bread  all  the  while. 

Q.  Formerly  they  lived  chiefly  on  meat  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  wrhen  we  came  to  this  country  you  would  not  see  a  piece 
of  bread  among  them  once  a  year. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER,  : 
Q.  Of  neither  corn  nor  wheat  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  do  they  use  corn  ? 

A.  They  boil  it  up  and  make  this  old-fashioned  lye-hominy ;  what  they 
call  in  the  East  hulled  corn. 

Q.  Among  the  Indians,  after  the  last  issue  of  annuity-goods,  did  you 
observe  any  difficulty  with  their  blankets  on  account  of  the  marks  that 
were  on  them  ;  any  holes  in  the  blankets  where  they  were  branded  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  tho;  e  that  the  Sioux  got,  where  the  letters  were,  there  came 


247 

holes  in  in  a  short  time.  The  Indians  said  to  me,  those  blankets  had 
been  burned  with  a  hot  iron  as  they  brand  a  Government  mule,  and  that 
was  the  reason  for  the  holes.  I  helped  to  issue  them,  and  they  appeared 
to  be  sound. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  how  many  bales  of  blankets  were  issued  at  that 
time  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not.  Perhaps  I  knew  at  the  time,  but  I  have  forgot 
ten  now. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  all  the  annuity-goods  for  that  year  were 
issued  at  one  time  or  not  ? 

A.  They  were  all  issued  at  one  time  except  a  big  box  of  axes  and  a 
small  box  of  hardware,  (I  forget  just  what  the  articles  were.)  They  were 
not  here  when  the  other  things  were  issued,  but  they  got  them  soon 
afterward. 

Q.  Have  you  at  any  time  heard  complaints  among  the  Indians  of 
Agent  Saville  ? 

A.  Well,  some  of  them  ;  yes.  I  have  heard  some  of  them  talking  about 
him,  the  same  as  they  talk  about  every  man.  Some  of  them  speak  well 
of  him  and  others  speak  bad  of  him. 

Q.  Those  who  speak  bad  of  him,  what  do  they  say  ? 

A.  They  thought  he  was  not  trying  to  assist  them,  and  others  thought 
he  was  a  rascal  ;  and  that  is  the  way  they  speak  of  all  the  agents. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  it  is  usual  among  the  Indians  to  complain  of  their 
agents  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  an  Indian  to-day  may  get  mad,  and  he  will  sit  down  and 
give  the  agent  a  terrible  raking,  and  come  back  to-morrow  and  talk  the 
other  way.  But  take  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes,  and,  as  a  general 
thing,  I  think  they  all  like  Dr.  Saville  very  well ;  that  is,  all  the  head 
men. 

Q.  Is  there,  among  the  Cheyennes  here,  so  far  as  you  can  observe, 
any  division  into  parties,  adhering  to  different  leaders  9 

A.  O,  yes ;  now  there  are  two  or  three  different  parties  right  here. 
There  is  Bed  Cloud,  he  has  a  party  of  his  own.  Then  there  is  this  man 
they  call  Little  Wound,  of  the  Cut-off  band,  and  four  or  five  different 
parties.  There  is  Bed  Leaf,  of  the  Wahashaws.  Those  are  the  three 
principal  ones. 

Q.  Well,  what  are  the  causes  of  difference  among  them,  the  ques 
tions  that  divide  them  ? 

A.  There  have  always  been  different  bands  since  I  have  been  in  this 
country,  and  each  band  has  its  chief.  At  the  same  time,  Bed  Cloud  has 
been  recognized  here  as  the  general  chief;  but  he  has  not  much  more 
X>ower,  so  far  as  that  is  concerned,  than  the  rest  of  them  outside  of  his 
small  band,  nor  as  much  as  some  other  headmen. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  like  a  correct  idea  of  the  number  of  Cheyennes 
who  get  subsistence  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  are  at  present  here  about  one  hundred  lodges — 
just  one  hundred  families. 

Q.  Are  there  others  who  are  absent  from  here  who  occasionally  come 
here  ? 

A.  Out  north  there  must  be  about  one  hundred  and  forty  lodges  more. 

Q.  They  come  in  here  occasionally  to  get  their  goods  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  portions  of  the  Cheyennes  that  you  know  of  who  are 
generally  absent  from  here,  but  who  occasionally  come  here,  only  in  the 
winter,  to  get  rations  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


248 

Q.  They  report  regularly  here — all  the  Cheyennes  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  are  some  of  the  Northern  Sioux  that  you  think  have  never 
been  here  at  all  1 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  there  are  others  who  have  come  here  occasionally  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  many  Indians  do  you  calculate  to  a  lodge? 
A.  This  spring  I  think  they  averaged  about  eight  to  a  lodge. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  The  Sioux  or  Cheyennes  "I 
A.  The  Cheyennes. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  That  would  be  about  nineteen  hundred,  or  a  little  less 
than  two  thousand  of  them. 

Mr.  ATIIERTON.  That  is  what  I  have  it,  nineteen  hundred  and 
twenty. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Since  you  have  been  at  the  agency,  have  there  been  times  when 
the  supplies  or  the  anuuit3T-goods  were  delayed  on  their  way  here  ? 

A.  Not  annuity-goods,  that  I  remember ;  but  last  winter,  during  the 
very  cold  weather,  the  agent  was  out  of  supplies. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  why  that  was  ? 

A.  I  understood  that  the  freighters  lost  their  cittle  ;  the  snow  was  so 
severe  that  they  lost  their  cattle. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  did  you  get  the  information  ? 

A.  I  went  into  Cheyenne  myself,  and  saw  a  good  many  freighters — 
some  of  them  on  the  way  and  some  of  them  at  Cheyenne.  There  were 
a  couple  of  trains  that  got  caught  over  here  on  Snake  Creek,  and  they 
lost  their  cattle,  and  the  men  got  frozen. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  seeing  any  pork  issued  to  the  Indians  here 
last  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  •  the}7  issued  pork  here  last  winter. 

Q.  That,  I  believe,  was  something  unprecedented  ;  they  had  not  issued 
pork  before  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  that  was  the  first  pork  they  issued. 

Q.  How  did  the  Indians  like  the  pork  ? 

A.  They  did  not  like  it  at  all. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  what  the  character  of  the  pork  was,  whether  it  was 
good,  sweet  pork  or  not  1 

A.  The  first  lot  of  pork  we  had  here  was  very  good  pork,  about  as 
good  as  I  ever  saw. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  it  ? 

A.  It  was  mess-pork  ;  the  second  lot  was  of  no  account  at  all;  it  was 
small  hogs  chopped  up  and  thrown  in. 

Q.  Was  the  quality  of  the  pork  bad,  or  was  it  simply  spoiled  ? 

A.  Some  of  it  was  spoiled  ;  some  of  it  smelled  bad  when  you  opened 
the  barrel.  The  quality  was  bad.  The  brine  leaked  out  of  the  barrel, 
and  it  was  dry. 

Q.  And  it  seemed  to  be  the  thin  part  of  middlings  and  a  portion  of 
the  shoulder  1 


249 

A.  It  was  the  whole  hog  chopped  up  into  small  pieces — shoulders 
sides,  hains,  and  all.  It  looked  like  small  pigs.  The  Indians  used  to 
throw  it  away ;  you  could  gather  up  wagon-loads  where  the  Indians 
threw  it  out  on  the  prairie. 

Q.  Were  there  regular  issues  of  beef  made  at  the  same  time  that 
those  issues  of  pork  were  made  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  at  the  same  time  the  Indian  got  an  issue  of  pork  he  also 
got  an  issue  of  beef  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  issued  rations  like — to-day  pork,  and  to-morrow 
beef. 

Q.  They  issued  the  pork  as  rations  as  they  now  issue  the  bacon  that 
we  see  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Was  there  at  any  time  last  winter  any  suffering  among  the  Indians 
on  account  of  the  shortness  of  supplies  ? 

A.  I  think  last  winter,  sir,  there  was  a  time  when  there  were  probably 
some  of  them  suffering.  I  am  pretty  sure  there  were. 

Q.  Did  you  know  any  such  case  directly  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  see  any  5  I  only  know  what  they  used  to  tell  me. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  cases  of  starvation  ? 

A.  O,  no,  sir;  there  was  nothing  like  that  at  all;  nothing  anywhere 
near  starvation,  because  they  had  beef  most  all  that  time,  and  they  had 
been  raised  on  beef.  There  was  a  short  time  when  they  were  out  of 
flour  and  sugar  and  coffee  and  pork. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Does  the  Indian  use  sugar  in  his  coffee  as  we  do  ? 
A.  They  use  a  great  deal  more  than  the  whites ;  more  sugar  and  less 
coffee. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Rowland,  have  you  any  particular  and  special  recollection  of 
the  issue  of  that  beef  on  the  14th  of  November,  when  Professor  Marsh 
was  here  9 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  pay  any  more  particular  attention  to  that  than 
to  any  other. 

Q.  Does  your  memory  enable  you  to  state  whether  there  was  anything 
particularly  marking  that  distribution ;  whether  the  cattle  were  inferior 
to  those  of  the  ordinary  issues,  or  whether  they  came  up  to  the  ordinary 
standard  ? 

A.  I  think  there  was  very  little  difference,  so  far  as  I  can  remember. 
There  were  two  issues  here  when  the  cattle  were  very  thin.  I  am  sure 
both  of  these  issues  were  after  Professor  Marsh  was  here.  That  was 
during  that  very  severe  cold  weather  last  winter. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  Indians  selling  any  of  their  flour  to 
the  traders  ? 
A.  They  sold  flour  to  the  freighters  who  came  here  last  year. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Rowland,  you  say  that,  in  the  discharge  of  your  duty  as  an  in 
terpreter,  you  were  required  to  be  present  at  the  weighing  of  the  beef? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  there  at  every  issue. 


250 

Q.  Well,  have  you  ever  noticed  any  parties  designing  to  conceal  from 
anybody  the  weighing  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  at  all. 

Q.  Was  it  a  matter  of  publicity  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  auybody  and  everybody  permitted  to  be  present  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  Indian  chiefs  present  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  exercise  anything  like  supervision  to  see  whether  the 
cattle  were  fairly  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  have  two  or  three  times  said  something  in  a  joking 
way.  Eed  Cloud  would  ask  Mr.  Gibbous  or  some  of  the  clerks  if  they 
were  weighing  right,  or  something  of  that  kind.  I  never  saw  anything 
concealed  about  the  matter;  it  was  always  a  public  thing. 

Q.  When  the  Indians  kill  these  beeves,  do  they  use  the  greater  por 
tion  of  the  meat,  or  do  they  waste  any  of  it  ? 

A-.  Sometimes  I  have  seen  them  leave  some  of  it  on  the  ground,  such 
as  the  bony  parts,  the  hips  and  back  bones,  and  legs. 

Q.  You  say  you  were  present  at  the  distribution  of  the  blankets  on 
the  14th  of  November,  1874,  and  you  say  you  do  not  recollect  the 
precise  number  distributed? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  whether  the  distribution  was  very  large 
or  very  small,  or  whether  its  character  was  such  as  to  attract  any  at 
tention  to  it  ? 

A.  It  was  neither  large  nor  small. 

Q.  Was  there  the  usual  amount  distributed  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Well,  I  hardly  think  there  was  as  much  then  as  there  was  the 
year  before,  but  I  would  not  say  positively. 

Q.  Could  you  from  your  recollection  now  of  the  amount  of  blankets— 
the  number  of  bales  then  issued — form  any  opinion  whether  that  issue 
amounted  to  eighteen  or  thirty-five  bales,  or  whether  it  was  between 
those  numbers  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  could  not,  because  I  do  not  remember,  and  I  would  not 
like  to  make  any  guess-work  about  it. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  was  the  size  of  the  blankets  that  were  issued  ? 

A.  Different  sizes.  Those  blankets  were  all  marked  with  poiuts  from 
one  up  to  three. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  the  proportion  of  one  size  to  another 
was  in  any  way  unusual  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  there  were  more  large  blankets  issued 
than  small  ? 

A.  I  think,  if  either,  there  were  more  large.  In  fact,  I  heard  a  great 
many  speaking  about  their  children — speaking  of  their  not  getting  many 
small  blankets  ? 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  say  you  occasionally  heard  the  Indians  speak  harshly  of  Dr. 
Saville? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  him  charged  with  any  act  of  concealment, 
dishonesty,  fraud,  or  any  specific  act  of  impropriety  f 

A.  I  heard  the  Indians  tell  him  that  they  thought  he  was  a  thief. 


251 

Q.  Have  they  ever  charged  him  with  any  specific  act  of  thievislmess 
or  dishonesty  ? 

A.  No,  sir  $  not  through  me. 

Q.  I  mean  have  you  ever  heard  them  make  such  statements  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  heard  them  make  such  a  remark  as  that,  that  they 
thought  he  was  a  thief,  and  accused  him  of  stealing. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  they  said  so  through  you  ? 
A.  I  only  heard  them  call  him  a  thief. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  ever,  in  your  intercourse  with  them,  heard  any  com 
plaints  on  their  part  that  looked  to  any  particular  act  of  thievishness 
or  dishonesty  in  him  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  have  not;  that  is  a  common  thing  with  the  Indians,  to 
call  a  white  man  a  thief — any  one  that  has  got  any  business  with  them. 

Q.  Then,  according  to  your  idea,  when  they  called  him  a  thief  they 
merely  meant  to  express  some  general  disapprobation  of  his  conduct,  and 
not  to  charge  him  with  any  specific  act  of  dishonesty  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  significance  do  the  Indians  attach  to  the  word  thief  when 
they  use  it  in  that  way  ? 

A.  Well,  sir ;  they  call  one  another  thieves  and  rascals.  When  they 
think  a  man  is  a  bad  man  they  call  him  a  thief  or  something  like  that. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  merely  want  to  ask,  in  this  case,  if  you  remember  what  provoca 
tion  they  had  at  the  time  for  calling  him  a  thief?  What  was  the  oc 
casion  ?  What  was  it  about  ? 

A.  Well,  I  think  it  was  in  regard  to  issuing  rations.  The  rations  per 
haps  were  a  little  short.  There  have  been  times  when  the  provisions 
were  short,  and  there  would  not  be  enough  to  issue  full  rations,  and 
they  would  have  to  issue  half  rations  to  make  them  go  around. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Would  not  that  indicate  that  they  meant  to  say  that  he  had  stolen 
part  of  their  rations  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  you  say  that  you  know  the  freighters  have  been  accustomed 
to  buy  flour  from  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  known  them  to  buy  any  other  supplies  ? 

A.  I  have  not  seen  them  do  it;  I  suppose  they  bought  corn. 

Q.  Any  bacon  ? 

A.  Not  much  bacon,  I  think. 

Q.  To  what  extent,  as  far  as  your  observation  and  knowledge  go,  are 
they  accustomed  to  sell  flour  and  corn  to  freighters  J? 

A.  In  1873  and  1874  there  was  considerable  sold. 

Q.  Did  the  freighters  make  a  practice  of  buying  their  supplies  at  this 
end  of  the  line,  rather  than  at  the  other,  because  they  could  buy  them 
cheaper  ? 

A.  I  presume  they  did;  they  could  buy  a  sack  of  flour  of  an  Indian 
for  a  dollar — a  sack  of  a  hundred  pounds. 


252 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  flour  being  issued  in  less  than  100  pound 

SaCKS  . 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HAEETS  : 

Q.  Have  you  known  those  freighters  to  take  away  loads  of  flour  to 
sell  at  the  other  end  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  some,  and  I  have  beeninformed'of  a  great  many  differ 
ent  times  when  they  took  away  quite  a  lot. 

Q.  Were  those  McCann's  freighters'? 

McC  YeS'  Slr'  the  man  that  freights  to  tllis  aS'eDCV-     x  suppose  it  is 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  whom  those  freighters  had  bought  the  flour  ? 
A.  No,  sir  5  I  could  not  say. 

r  ?'  Ha/°  y°U  known  either  of  the  traders  here  to  buy  flour  from  the 
Indians  i 

A.  I  never  saw  either  of  them  do  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  that  they  did  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  them  buy  any,  and  never  heard  that  they  bought  any 

Q.  Is  it  your  impression  that  this  trade  has  been  directly  between  the 
freighters  and  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  the  white  men  who  live  among  the  Indians,  and  have  mar 
necl  Indian  women,  been  engaged  in  that  business? 
^  A.  I  think  one  of  them  would  buy  a  sack  for  his  family  if  he  wanted 
some. 

Q.  I  mean,  would  he  buy  some  lo  accumulate  and  to  sell  again  ? 
A.  There  may  be  some  cases  of  that  kind,  but  I  think  not. 

By  Mr.  ATHEETON  : 

Q.  Did  they  go  round  and  pick  up  sack  by  sack  at  different  lodges 
until  they  got  as  much  as  they  wanted  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HAEEIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  Bob  Randall,  or  Todd  Randall  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  sold  any  directly  to  the  freighters  to  be 
shipped  away  by  the  wagon-load  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIEMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  he  did  with  his  flour  ?    Did  he  haul  it  away  I 
A.  I  think  he  used  to  feed  it  to  his  mules  ;  he  had  a  mule-train  here. 

By  Mr.  HAEEIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  his  carrying  away  150  sacks  at  a  time  1 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  him  to  turn  in  any  flour  which  he  had  bought  of 
the  Indians  instead  of  flour  which  he  had  to  freight? 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not. 

Q.  You  think  this  business  was  carried  on  to  a  considerable  extent, 
do  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Extending  to  thousands  of  sacks  ? 

A.  Probably  over  a  thousand  sacks,  anyway,  were  sent  away  from 
here — corn  and  flour. 


253 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  go  back  to  the  pork.  You  say  that  some  of  the 
pork  which  came  here  was  nice,  clear  pork  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  first  lot  of  pork  was  very  nice  pork. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that  clear  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  like  that  ? 

A.  They  did  not  like  that  as  well  as  they  liked  bacon,  but  it  was  very 
good  pork. 

Q.  The  second  lot  of  pork  was  composed  of  small  hogs,  very  lean,  cut 
right  through,  hams  and  all? 

A.  The  whole  hog  cut  up,  as  I  would  think  from  the  looks  of  the 
bones ;  the  whole  hog  chopped  up. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  heads  or  feet  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  some  of  it  smelled  bad  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Utterly  ruined  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  make  use  of  any  part  of  it  ? 

A.  Some  parts  of  it;  they  used  to  take  what  little  fat  there  was,  and 
the  balance  they  threw  away. 

Q.  Was  there  any  pork  there  so  bad  that  no  part  of  it  was  fit  to  eat? 

A.  No,  I  believe  white  men  would  have  eaten  it — foiled  it ;  but  it  was 
of  no  account  to  an  Indian,  'because  he  don't  know  how  to  use  it ;  and 
there  was  very  little  grease  in  it. 

Q.  After  that  bad  pork  came  here,  you  say  the  last  was  better  than 
that? 

A.  The  last  was  pretty  fair  pork  ;  part  of  the  last  was  pretty  fair  pork, 
but  it  was  mixed. 

Q.  You  say  of  the  second  lot  that  it  was  utterly  unfit  to  give  to  In 
dians? 

A.  Yes ;  it  was  utterly  waste— of  no  account  at  all. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  there  was  some  of  it  that  was  not  fit  for 
anybody  to  eat  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  a  few  barrels  that  the  brine  leaked  out  of.  The  Indians 
said  it  all  stunk. 

Q.  Did  they  throw  away  any  part  of  the  first  issue  of  pork  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  so.     If  they  did,  I  never  saw  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  bad  pork  was  around  here  when  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  was  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  it  was. 

Q.  And  what  Professor  Marsh  says  of  it,  that  some  of  it  was  thrown 
upon  the  ground  and  was  old  and  strong  and  rusty,  and  unfit  for  human 
food,  was  true,  was  it  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  saw  some  of  it. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  tell  us,  in  your  own  way,  the  mode  of  weighing  cat- 
ye  ?  Give  the  commissioners  a  description  of  the  process,  so  that  we  can 
fully  understand  it. 

A.  They  have  two  corrals,  something  similar  to  these  rooms,  with  a  di 
vision  between  them,  and  have  scales  in  the  middle  division,  just  like 
where  that  door  is,  [pointing  to  the  door  between  the  rooms,]  with  a  frame 
work  over  them.  The  platform  of  the  scales  will  hold  eight  or  ten  head 
of  cattle.  There  is  a  gate  at  either  end  of  the  inclosure  where  the  scales 


254 

are.  The  cattle  are  driven  through  the  first  gate  on  to  the  platform,  and 
that  gate  is  closed;  then  they  are  on  the  platform  and  are  weighed  ;  and 
as  soon  as  they  are  weighed  the  man  who  stands  at  the  other  gate  opens 
it  and  they  pass  out  into  the  other  corral. 

Q.  When  they  are  weighed,  who  weighs  them;  who  takes  the  weight  "I 

A.  The  chief  clerk  is  generally  the  man  who  weighs  them. 

Q.  Does  he  announce  the  weight  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  does  not. 

Q.  Do  they  drive  on  to  the  scales  ordinarily  all  kinds,  including  calves, 
Cows,  and  small  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  mixed. 

Q.  What  should  you  judge  to  be  the  weight  of  the  smallest  cattle 
weighed  there  during  last  year? 

A.  Well,  sir,  lam  a  poor  judge  of  the  weight  of  beef-cattle.  I  never 
weighed  one  in  my  life.  It  was  very  .seldom  there  were  any  two-year- 
olds,  only  a  very  few;  seldom  any  less  than  three-year-olds. 

Q.  Were  there  any  large  cattle  among  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  some  small  ones  ? 

A.  Large  and  small — the  different  sizes — such  as  you  would  find  in 
any  ordinary  herd  of  Texas  cattle. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  is  your  understanding  of  the  term  "  beef,"  when  you  speak 
among  yourselves  of  beef — of  beef-cattle  ? 

A.  We  speak  of  "  beef "  here  among  ourselves  as  beef  butchered,  and  of 
"  beef-cattle  "  as  cattle  on  the  hoof. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  standard  by  which  you  estimate  what  a  beef- 
animal  is,  whether  it  is  a  cow  or  a  yearling ;  a  four-year-old,  or  a  three- 
year-old,  &c.  ? 

A.  A  beef-animal,  wherever  I  have  been,  is  an  ox,  four,  five,  six,  seven, 
or  eight  years  old.  Everything  above  a  calf  is  called  a  beef. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  a  circumstance,  or  have  you  ever  had  satis 
factory  information  of  a  circumstance,  where  any  of  the  Government 
goods  brought  here  for  distribution  have  been  otherwise  disposed  of 
than  in  the  regular  course  of  distribution  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not ;  not  a  particle — not  a  pound  or  a  dollar's  worth 
of  anything. 

Q.  By  whom  are  you  paid  for  your  services  ? 

A.  I  am  paid  here  by  the  agent. 

Q.  Are  you  in  the  employ  of  the  agent? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  an  interpreter  do  you  not  get  a  salary  from  the  Government  in 
dependent  of  any  compensation  that  the  agent  gives  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  you  boarded  at  the  agency  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  your  pay  includes  board  and  salary  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  entire  confidence  of  the  Cheyeunes  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  pretty  much.    What  way  do  you  mean  ? 
Q.  Do  you  consider  it  at  all  your  duty  to  see  that  the  Cheyennes  re 
ceive  what  belongs  to  them  ? 


255 

A.  O,  yes ;  they  look  to  me  to  help  them  in  that  way  ;  they  have  no 
one  else.  I  am  the  only  man  who  can  talk  their  language. 

Q.  Do  they  ever  complain  to  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  very  often.  If  things  don't  go  just  to  suit  them,  tliey  turn 
round  and  give  me  a  raking. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  they  regard  you  as  a  friend  and  protector  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  regard  yourself  in  that  light  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.    I  have  been  amongst  them  a  great  while.  In  fact,  I  have 
raised  a  family  of  children  by  one  of  their  women. 
Q.  Then  you  are  married  to  one  of  their  tribe  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  And  you  feel  an  interest  in  looking  after  their  welfare "? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Does  your  family  draw  rations  the  same  as  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  do  not  draw  rations  yourself? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  board  here  at  the  agency. 

Q.  How  far  from  here  do  you  keep  your  family  ? 

A.  About  three  hundred  yards. 

Q.  Do  you  have  coffee  in  your  family  from  the  supply  furnished  to  the 
agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  look  at  that,  [sample  of  coffee  shown,]  and  tell  me  how 
it  compares  with  coffee  issued  to  your  family  during  the  year  1874  and 
thus  far  during  the  present  year  ? 

A.  Some  of  our  coffee  varied  j  some  was  fully  as  good  as  that.  We  had 
some  that  was  not  as  good.  Perhaps  the  coffee  we  had  in  1873  was  not 
as  good  as  this  ;  it  was  more  like  damaged  coffee  $  it  had  a  great  deal 
more  of  these  black  grains  in  it — nearly  one-third  of  it. 

Q.  Was  the  coffee  which  was  supplied  to  the  agency  in  the  years  1874 
and  1875  equal  or  inferior  to  the  coffee  now  shown  you? 

A.  I  think  some  of  it  was  as  good  and  some  not  as  good. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  this  as  good  as  any  you  received  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  So  that  is  a  specimen  of  the  best  coffee  you  had  here  ? 

A.  As  a  general  thing  the  1875  coffee  was  as  good  as  that  specimen. 
I  have  some  of  it  in  my  house  now. 

Q.  Have  you  any  that  is  worse  than  that  in  your  house  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  was  the  quality  of  the  coffee  that  was  issued  here  during 
last  fall  and  winter  and  spring  1? 

A.  This  last  fall  I  don't  think  the  coffee  we  got  was  quite  as  good  as 
that. 

Q.  Was  it  ordinarily  good  coffee  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  never  heard  the  Indians  grumbling  about  the  coffee  at 
all.  They  simply  said  they  would  prefer  white  sugar  instead  of  brown. 


256 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  by  "  white  sugar  !  " 

A.  What  you  call  "  Government  crushed,"  pure  white. 

Q.  Have  they  ever  had  any  of  it  distributed  to  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir  $  but  they  say  that  is  the  kind  they  see  the  whites  use  when 
they  go  to  see  the  Great  Father  in  Washington,  and  they  would  like  to 
have  that  kind  issued  to  them. 

Q.  How  does  the  sugar  which  is  now  being  issued  at  the  agency  which 
you  have  seen  compare  with  the  sugar  which  you  received  during  the 
years  1874  and  1875? 

A.  During  the  years  1874  and  1875  we  received  two  different  kinds  of 
sugar  here. 

Q.  How  does  this  compare  with  the  best?     [Sample  of  sugar  shown.] 

A.  Some  was  similar  to  this  and  some  was  a  good  deal  lighter  in  color. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  any  of  it  wet  and  heavy  that  you  saw  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir 5  some  brown  sugar  something  like  this  was  wet;  it  got 
damaged  ;  it  was  about  like  this. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Won't  you  look  in  the  barrel  in  the  other  room  in  which  there  is 
quite  a  quantity,  and  tell  us  how  that  compares  with  the  darkest  sugar 
you  received  ? 

A.  [After  looking.]  That  is  some  of  the  same  sugar. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  am  not  entirely  satisfied  upon  one  point.  You  say  you  are  paid 
by  the  agent ;  does  not  that  pay  come  out  of  the  appropriation  made 
by  Congress  ? 

A.  Certainly.  I  misunderstood  you.  I  am  paid  by  the  Government 
through  the  agent. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  have  often  been  to  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  bsen  to  Cheyenne  over  the  different  routes — the  one 
they  haul  the  freight  over  and  the  one  by  the  way  of  Fort  Laramie,  and 
the  mail-route  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.    I  have  been  over  the  whole  three  of  them. 

Q.  On  horseback  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  horseback  and  wagon. 

Q.  Well,  what  do  you  men  who  travel  on  these  routes  estimate  the 
distance  by  the  usual  traveled  road  over  which  they  haul  freight  from 
Cheyenne  to  this  place  ? 

A.  We  used  to  call  it,  before  it  was  measured,  one  hundred  and  sixty 
miles,  by  the  way  they  haul  freight. 

Q.  Have  you  been  from  here  to  Sidney  ? 

A.  No.  1  have  never  been  on  the  road  to  Sidney  since  they  made 
that  road,  although  I  was  here  when  the  road  was  made. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Who  made  it  ? 

A.  It  was  only  made  through  here  this  year ;  it  was  just  tracked 
through  there  a  year  ago.  We  make  a  road  in  this  country  by  taking  a 
wagon  and  making  a  track,  and  following  it  up  ;  there  is  no  work  done 
on  it. 


257 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  the  men  who  have  hauled  freight  from  Sid 
ney  here  'I 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  spoken  to  a  great  many  of  them.  There  is  a  dif 
ference  of  opinion  among  them.  Some  say  they  would  rather  haul  from 
Cheyenne,  and  others  say  they  would  rather  haul  from  Sidney  ;  but  I 
have  never  been  over  the  Sidney  road  myself.  So  far  as  the  distance  is 
concerned,  I  don't  think  myself  there  is  a  difference  of  five  miles. 

Q.  And  you  are  not  prepared  to  say  as  to  which  is  the  better  road  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  1  have  never  been  over  the  road.  I  have  been  through 
the  country  there  before  there  was  any  road  tracked  out,  but  I  could  not 
say  what  kind  of  a  wagon-road  it  is. 

Q.  What  is  the  general  feeling  and  disposition  toward  the  military 
among  the  Indians  that  you  have  talked  and  are  acquainted  with? 
What  is  their  general  feeling  toward  the  soldiers  here  '1  Do  they  feel 
kindly  toward  them  u? 

A.  They  don't  want  them.  They  don't  feel  as  if  they  wanted  them  in 
their  country.  They  don't  want  anything  to  do  with  them. 

Q.  Those  Indians  told  us  this  morning  that  if  they  received  ten  days7 
rations  at  one  time  they  will  last  them  only  seven  days,  and  if  they  re 
ceive  seven  days'  rations  they  will  last  them  only  four  days.  How  is 
that  ?  Do  you  know  1 

A.  I  will  explain  to  you  how  that  is.  Indians  when  they  get  their 
rations  don't  do  like  white  people.  They  don't  take  them  home  to  their 
houses  and  store  them.  They  take  them  right  in  and  commence  making 
feasts,  and  as  long  as  they  have  anything  to  eat  they  cook  it  and  call 
their  friends  in  from  one  lodge  to  another  and  eab  until  it  is  all  gone. 
They  have  no  forethought.  They  don't  save  for  to-morrow. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Would  not  that  difficulty  be  obviated  by  giving  them  a  larger 
quantity  $ 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  would  make  it  worse.  The  more  they  get,  the  more 
they  cook,  and  the  more  they  will  waste. 

Q.  The  custom  among  them  is,  as  I  understand  it,  that  no  particular 
family  keeps  its  rations  for  itself  alone,  but  so  long  as  they  have  any 
thing  to  eat  it  must  be  given  to  any  one  who  comes  in  and  wants  it?  i 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  must  cook  and  give  him  something  to  eat  as  long  as 
they  have  anything.  Perhaps  the  man  they  are  cooking  for  has  eaten 
twenty  times  that  day. 

Q.  That  is  a  universal  custom  among  all  the  Indians  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  what  they  have  is  in  common,  to  be  partaken  of  by^auy 
one  who  comes  along  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  as  long  as  it  lasts. 

Q.  I  don't  think  you  understood  the  other  question  that  I  asked  you. 
Considering  those  very  habits  you  ascribe  to  the  Indian,  would  it  not  be 
more  expedient  to  distribute  the  rations  every  week  than  every  ten 
days? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  misunderstood  you.  The  oftener  the  distribution,  the 
less  liable  they  are  to  waste.  They  would  waste  less  by  receiving  ra 
tions  every  seven  days  than  every  ten  days. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  intoxicating  liquors  having  beenjsold 
here  to  the  Indians  I 
17  I  F 


258 

A.  Well,  there  has  been  very  little  of  that  done  at  this  agency.  Of 
course,  now  and  then  a  case  of  that  kind  happens ;  but  it  is  all  over  be 
fore  any  one  knows  anything  about  it.  There  have  been  some  Mexicans 
up  here  who  would  slip  into  camp  with  a  keg  of  whisky  and  trade  it 
off  and  be  gone.  Of  course  the  Indian  won't  tell  you  where  he  got  tho 
whisky. 

Q.  Have  you  known  any  of  the  employes  about  the  agency  to  be  in 
toxicated  on  any  occasion  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  there  is  a  rule  to  discharge  any  6rie  that  is  drunk.  They 
discharged  two  or  three  a  few  days  before  you  came  here. 

Q.  Then  you  have  trouble  of  that  kind  here  ? 

A.  O,  yes  ;  they  will  have  it.  1  think  they  get  the  most  of  it  here  at 
the  fort — at  the  military  post.  I  don't  think  there  is  much  whisky 
comes  directly  here  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Have  the  traders  been  in  the  habit  of  trading  it  out  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Will  yon  tell  us  with  regard  to  the  habit  of  seduction  of  Indian 
women ;  whether  that  has  been  practiced  or  attempted  by  anybody 
about  here  ? 

A.  A  great  many  men  come  here,  such  as  loafers  and  men  coming 
in  here,  who  try  to  get  hold  of  a  woman  to  keep  her  for  the  purpose  of 
getting  rations  and  living  here. 

Q.  How  is  it  with  the  Indian  women  as  a  rule — take  females  of  the 
Sioux  Nation  ;  are  they  ordinarily  chaste,  what  you  would  call  virtuous, 
according  to  their  mode  of  life  and  ideas  of  virtue? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  considered  all  right  for  a  man  to  have  as  many 
wives  as  he  can  support. 

Q.  Are  the  women  inclined  to  be  loose  in  their  habits  before  marriage  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  is  very  little  of  that  among  them. 

Q.  How  is  it  with  the  young  females  that  come  round  here;  are  they 
liable  to  fall  into  the  hands  of  bad  men  f 

A.  O,  yes ;  they  will  do  it ;  those  that  come  around  and  hang 
round. 

Q.  Have  you  known  of  any  person  employed  about  the  agency  to  be 
guilty  of  anything  of  that  sort? 

A.  No,  sir ;  none  of  the  employes. 

Q.  Have  any  been  discharged  for  that  reason  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  remember  of  any  ;  there  might  have  been ;  but  1 
don't  remember. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  Red  Cloud  or  any  of  the  chiefs  complain  of 
white  men  seducing  members  of  their  families  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  I  heard  them  complain  of  white  men  marrying  In 
dian  girls,  and  living  a  while  with  them,  and  then  going  away  and  leav 
ing  them,  and,  perhaps,  leaving  a  child. 

Q.  That  is  clone  for  the  purpose  of  drawing  rations  at  the  agency  ? 

Q.  Jt  has  been  done  ;  but  I  don't  think  it  is  done  much  at  the  present 
time. 

By  Mr.  ATHEBTON  : 

Q.  Yon  speak  of  the  Indians  feeling  obliged  to  feed  each  other  so 
long  as  they  have  anything  to  eat.  Have  they  any  means  among  them 
selves  of  preventing  persons  who  are  lazy  from  living  on  them  in  that 
way  ?  That  is,  persons  who  do  not  contribute  any;  persons  who  are 
lazy. 

A.  No,  sir;  what  you  call  a  lazy  nan  they  don't  know  anything 
about. 


259 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  They  are  all  lazy,  you  think  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  they  are. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Again,  when  you  say  they  hold  everything  in  common,  you.  do 
not  mean  by  that,  as  I  understand,  that  each  family  considers  what  it 
owns  is  equally  the  possession  of  the  others  ? 

A.  O,  no  ;  they  use  it  up  among  one  another. 

Q.  When  yousay  they  hold  all  things  in  common,  you  mean  they  hold 
themselves  bound  to  exercise  a  constant  hospitality  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  the  man  who  can  feed  out  what  he  has  got,  first,  is  the 
biggest  man. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  difference  with  reference  to  chastity  between  the 
females  of  the  Arapahoes  and  Cheyennes  ? 

A.  O,  yes ;  the  Arapahoes  are  loose ;  three-quarters  of  them  are 
prostitutes,  and  a  part  of  the  other  fourth,  I  presume. 

Q.  And  they  prostitute  themselves  with  the  whites  and  anybody  that 
comes  along  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  that  apply  to  the  young  women  or  to  the  married  women,  or 
both? 

A.  All  of  them,  I  believe,  and  the  old  women,  too — young  and  old 
alike,  that  are  big  enough. 

Q.  Is  it  not  considered  disreputable  among  them  f 

A.  !No,  sir;  I  don't  think  it  is.  It  is  among  the  Cheyennes  and 
Sioux ;  but  I  don't  think  the  Arapahoes  look  at  it  in  that  way  much. 

Q.  Do  you  owe  your  appointment  to  Dr.  Saville  alone  ?  That  is,  did 
you  get  your  appointment  from  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  he  wrote  on  to  get  it  for  me. 

Q.  Were  you  here  at  the  time  he  came  to  take  charge  of  the  agency  I 

A.  About  two  months  later. 

Q.  Where  were  you  when  he  came  here  ? 

A.  I  was  up  north,  and  I  went  with  the  Indians  to  Washington  as  an 
interpreter. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Dr.  Saville  before  be  came  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  knew  Dr.  Saville  iu  Denver  City,  Colorado. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  Dr.  Saville,  or  with  any  one 
else,  about  the  testimony  that  you  were  to  give  before  this  commission  1 

A.  I  have  not,  sir.  I  did  not  know  I  should  have  to  come  here  be 
fore  I  was  called. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  were  never  informed  that  you  would  be  likely  to  be  called 
before  the  commission  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  flour  of  last  year's  supply  which  was  not  branded  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  some  sacks  came  here  that  were  not  branded.  I  am  not 
positive,  but  I  think  they  were  sent  back. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  that  flour? 

A.  Some  of  it  was  an  inferior  grade  of  flour  I  helped  to  pick  out 
some  of  the  sacks  myself  to  be  sent  back. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  flour  came  here  that  was  not  in  double 
sacks  ? 


260 

A.  No,  sir  ;  if  there  did,  I  never  saw  it. 

ty.  Where  do  you  take  your  meals  ? 

A.  In  the  niess-house  of  the  agency. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  the  flour  from  ? 

A.  It  is  taken  from  the  commissary. 

Q.  I  understand  that,  in  addition  'to  the  duties  of  an  interpreter,  you 
act  as  marshal. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  disposition  of  the  Indians  toward  the 
Government  ? 

A.  I  think  the  majority  of  them  are  well  inclined. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  their  agricultural  prospects— of  the  possi 
bility  of  their  making  any  progress  on  the  reservation  as  an  agricultural 
people  ? 

A.  I  think  it  would  take  some  time. 

Q.  Can  it  be  done  ! 

A.  There  is  no  place  here  to  do  it. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  Black  Hills  region  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  does  that  locality  compare  with  this  ? 

A.  It  is  not  much  better.  There  are  some  small  valleys  among  the 
hills  that  could  be  cultivated. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  many  of  the  Indians  live  up  in  the 
Black  Hills? 

A.  No,  sir ;  the  Black  Hills  country  has  always  been  a  kind  of  re 
served  piece  of  ground ;  it  is  not  inhabited ;  the  Indians  used  to  go  to 
the  foot  of  the  hills  for  deer  and  elk.  They  have  not  been  in  the  habit 
of  camping  or  living  there. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Wrhat  do  you  mean  by  saying  it  is  reserved  ? 

A.  They  call  it  a  sort  of  sacred  place;  they  call  it  "  Medicine-place;" 
that  means  sacred. 

Q.  They  incline  to  the  prairie  or  the  plain  rather  than  to  the  mount 
ains  ? 

A.  You  seldom  see  the  Cheyennes,  Sioux,  or  Arapahoes  go  to  the 
mountains.  Recently  some  of  the  Northern  Indians  have  been  going  up 
to  the  Big  Horn  country  to  hunt,  because  buffaloes  are  scarce. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  why  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  are  not  willing 
to  go  south,  to  the  Indian  Territory,  with  the  other  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  claim  this  country  as  theirs.  They  say  it  originally 
belonged  to  them.  When  I  first  came  here  it  was  called  the  Cheyenne 
and  Arapahoe  country  all  the  way  from  the  Bad  Lauds,  including  the 
Black  Hills.  Most  of  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  who  are  here 
now,  about  White  River  and  the  North  Platte,  have  been  born  and  raised 
here,  and  that  is  the  reason  why  they  don't  like  to  leave  this  country. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  estimating  the  number  of  Sioux  who  are 
fed  here  ? 

A.  There  would  not  be  any  correct  way  of  doing  it  unless  you  wrent 
around  and  counted  them.  We  counted  them  lastswinter  before  they 
drew  their  annuity-goods. 

Q.  How  did  you  count  them  f 

A.  We  went  into  each  lodge,  and  took  down  the  number  of  the  family. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  the  Indians  inclined  to  claim  supplies  for  more  people  than 
ttiey  have  in  their  families  ? 


261 

A.  O,  yes,  sir ;  they  will  do  it  all  the  time  if  you  don't  watch  them 
mighty  close. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  their  making  any  opposition  to  their  being- 
counted  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  sort  of  opposition  did  they  make  ?  What  did  they  do  or 
say? 

A.  Last  fall,  when  we  started  out  to  count  them,  some  of  them  refused 
to  be  counted,  and  it  was  some  time  before  we  could  talk  them  into  it 
at  all ;  they  said  the  Government  wanted  to  swindle  them  and  cheat 
them,  and  would  not  allow  them  supplies  for  as  many  people  as  they 
really  had.  Some  stood  out  four  or  five  days. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  number  of  people  to  a  lodge  ? 

A.  I  forget  what  the  Sioux  would  average. 

Q.  What  would  the  Cheyennes  average  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is  eight  to  a  lodge. 

Q.  The  Sioux  more  or  less  f 

A.  Less. 

Q.  The  Arapahoes  how  many  ? 

A.  The  Arapahoes  more.  Some  of  their  lodges  have  two  or  three 
families  in  one  lodge.  At  the  little  fight  they  had  with  the  Snake  In 
dians  and  some  others,  they  lost  many  of  their  lodges,  and  had  to  double 
up  several  families  in  a  lodge. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  As  a  general  thing,  how  long  do  they  keep  their  lodges  in  one 
place  ? 
A.  A  month  is  a  long  time  for  an  Indian  to  stay  in  any  one  place. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Why  is  that  ? 

A.  I  suppose  when  they  camp  a  month  it  becomes  filthy  and  dirty, 
and  they  move  to  a  clean  camp. 

Q.  They  don't  take  any  pains  to  clean  their  camp  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  they  will  let  it  go  until  it  gets  too  filthy.  It  is  easier  for 
them  to  move  their  camp  than  to  move  away  the  filth. 


TESTIMONY  OF  H.  E.  FAKNHAM. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  this  section  of  the  country? 

Answer.  Since  November  a  year  ago  ;  two  years  next  November. 

Q.  Mr.  Farriham,  you  were  here  last  November? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was. 

Q.  And  December? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  no  means  of  knowing  with  anything  like  accuracy  the 
number  of  Indians  that  were  getting  supplies  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  number  of  Northern  Sioux  who  came 
in  here  temporarily  during  the  winter? 

A.  I  do  not.  I  was  sick  for  nearly  six  weeks  in  the  winter,  and  dur 
ing  that  time  I  did  not  leave  the  house.  At  any  other  time,  I  do  not  know 
how  many  Indians  were  here  from  the  north  or  anywhere  else. 


262 

Q.  Did  yon  go  with  Professor  Marsh  up  into  the  Bad  Lauds  after  bones? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  nothing  of  auy  Northern  Sioux  being  camped  on  the 
other  side  of  White  Kiver  before  you  started  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  camped  there  when  you  went  along  there  ? 

A.  We  saw  some  camps,  I  think  two ;  I  do  not  think  either  one  of 
them  were  Northern  Sioux,  but  whether  they  were  or  not  I  am  not  able 
to  state  positively. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  at  the  issuing  of  beef,  about  the  8th  or  14th  of  last 
November  ? 

A.  I  am  not  positive  about  the  date :  I  cannot  remember  when  I 
started  to  the  Bad  Lands  with  the  Professor,  but  I  was  here  before  that, 
and  most  of  the  time  after  we  came  back. 

Q.  Did  you  in  the  fall  see  a  number  of  issues  of  beef?  Do  you  know 
anything  about  the  issue  of  beef  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir  ;  I  never  was  at  the  corral ;  I  had  no  business 
there. 

Q.  You  did  not^know  what  kind  of  beef  was  issued  f 

A.  No,  sir ;  1  did  not,  no  more  than  that  they  were  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Have  you  frequently  seen  the  kind  of  cattle  that  have  been  issued 
here '? 

A.  Not  frequently,  sir;  I  did  see  some  last  summer,  two  or  three 
issues. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  kind  of  cattle  they  were  ? 

A.  Well,  no;  I  never  paid  any  attention  to  them. 

Q.  Were  they  steers  and  cows  ? 

A.  I  never  paid  much  attention  to  them  ;  I  think,  though,  they  were 
mostly  steers. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  dealt  in  cattle  or  had  much  to  do  with  them  so  as 
to  be  able  to  judge  '? 

A.  I  never  handled  cattle  in  my  life. 

Q.  What  have  you  been  doing  in  this  country  since  you  have  been 
here  ;  what  kind  of  business  do  you  follow  I 

A.  I  have  worked  at  laboring  work  most  of  the  time  ;  I  worked  for 
Mr.  Deer,  and  worked  at  the  agency  part  of  the  summer. 

Q.  You  had  no  information,  then,  as  to  the  number  of  Indians  that 
were  supplied  here  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  had  no  means  of  knowing;  they  camp  on  different 
creeks  some  distance  from  the  agency;  nobody  living  here  who  did  not 
make  it  his  business  would  be  able  to  tell  without  going  the  rounds. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  issue  of  annuity-goods  here  last  fall  ? 

A.  Part  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  blankets  that  were  issued  then  ? 

A.  I  never  noticed  them  particularly. 

Q.  Have  you  since  noticed  those  blankets  among  the  Indians  ? 

A,  sir;  I  never  examined  them.  I  have  seen  the  Indians  have 
blankets  marked  "  U.  S.  I.  D." 

Q.  Do  you  speak  the  Sioux  language  I 

A.  Yes,  sir;  a  little. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  the  Indians  complaining  about  their  blankets  ? 

A.  Never  did. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  complaining  any  about  their  rations  ? 

A.  Never  did;  not  a  word,  only  about  the  quantity. 

Q.  That  they  ought  to  have  more  ? 

A.  I  often  heard  them  complain  that  they  were  hungry,  but  I  never 
heard  them  say  it  was  anybody's  fault. 


263 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  did  not  know  how  many  Northern  Sioux  came  down  ;  haven't 
you  any  idea  of  how  many  Sioux  belonged  at  the  agency  and  have  been 
led  here  for  some  time  1 

A.  I  have  not.  I  never  heard  anybody  say,  and  I  took  no  pains  to  find 
out. 

Q.  You  could  not  give  any  estimate  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  not  here  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here  ? 

A.  I  was. 

Q.  Before  he  went  bone-hunting  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  not  you  see  any  cattle  that  were  delivered  to  the  Indians  at 
the  time  he  was  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  I  did  not.  The  Professor  went  down  to  the  corral,  but  I 
did  not  go. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  cattle  after  they  had  been  turned  out  to 
the  Indians  J? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  All  you  can  say  is  that  the  two  issues  that  you  saw  last  summer 
were  Texas  cattle  ?  Can't  you  tell  us  whether  there  were  any  cows 
among  them,  or  what  their  size  was  ? 

A.  I  am  not  any  judge  of  cattle  ;  they  were  good  beef-cattle. 

Q.  Were  they  small  or  large  cattle  f 

A.  I  do  not  know.  They  were  good,  large  cattle  $  average  cattle,  I 
should  judge. 

Q.  Was  there  a  good  deal  of  difference  in  their  size  ? 

A.  Well,  no  ;  not  that  I  saw  ;  there  is  a  difference  in  all  cattle,  but  I 
did  not  see  any  great  difference  in  those  cattle. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  Mr.  Bosler  since  he  came  here  the  other  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  him  about  this  matter  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Had  no  conversation  with  him  about  it  ? 

A.  Had  no  conversation  to  amount  to  anything. 

Q.  Haven't  you  heard  any  talk  about  the  cattle  which  he  delivered 
here  last  year  ? 

A.  I  have  not ;  never. 

Q.  You  haven't  now,  at  this  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  in  fact  I  never  heard  him  say  a  word. 

Q.  Neither  of  the  Messrs.  Bosler  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  you  now  doing  here? 

A.  At  present  I  am  unemployed. 

Q.  In  what  way  were  you  employed  last  ? 

A.  The  last  thing  I  done  was,  I  came  in  from  the  bone-fields  ;  I  had 
been  gathering  fossils  for  Professor  Marsh.  That  was.  on  the  23d  or 
24th  of  June,  of  the  present  year. 

Q.  Then  you  are  in  correspondence  with  him  about  bones  ;  you  work 
for  him  1 

A.  I  have  worked  for  him  ;  I  made  an  agreement  with  him  when  he 
left  here  last  fall  that  I  would  collect  fossils  for  him,  and  done  so  as  far 
as  I  could.  The  Indians  stopped  me  at  first. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  at  the  time  he  was  here  refer  to  the  fact  of  bad 
rations,  bad  tobacco,  bad  sugar,  or  bad  flour  being  issued  to  the  In 
dians  ? 


264 

A.  I  heard  the  Professor  talk  with  Major  Burt,  of  the  Ninth  Infantry, 
and  heard  him  say  that  Eed  Cloud  had  laid  some  complaints  before  him. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  hear  Eed  Cloud  make  the  complaints  himself! 

A.  No ;  I  was  not  at  the  council.    I  stayed  over  at  the  store. 

Q.  Haven't  you  seen  flour  issued  here  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  character  of  the  flour  you  have  seen  ? 

A.  Very  good  flour,  as  far  as  I  have  seen ;  as  good  flour  as  is  sold 
here  by  the  traders. 

Q.  Do  the  traders  sell  the  same  flour  ? 

A.  Not  that  I  ever  knew  of. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  flour  in  the  hands  of  traders  marked  "  U. 
S.  I.  D.  ?» 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  bad  flour  in  the  hands  of  the  Indians,  that 
which  was  too  dark  and  bad  to  be  useful  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  seen  but  very  little  that  was  damaged  at  all,  and 
that  had  probably  laiu  on  the  ground  and  been  damaged. 

Q.  You  have  seen  that  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  very  little  of  that. 

Q.  Have  you  lived  among  the  Indians;  have  you  been  acquainted 
with  the  Indians  elsewhere  ? 

A.  I  have  not  lived  among  the  Indians. 

Q.  I  mean  so  as  to  know  them  ? 

A.  I  have  been  in  this  vicinity  ever  since  1867. 

Q.  Therefore  you  are  well  acquainted  with  the  Sioux  people  ? 

A.  Somewhat;  not  well.  I  am  pretty  well  acquainted  with  Eed 
Cloud's  band. 

Q.  In  your  interviews  with  Eed  Cloud  has  he  ever  complained  to  you 
about  his  rations? 

A.  He  never  has. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  him  frequently  ? 

A.  Seen  him  probably  twice  a  week. 

Q.  Seen  him  at  his  tent? 

A.  I  never  was  at  the  lodge. 

Q.  You  worked  for  Mr.  Deer  in  the  store  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  any  Indians  complain  of  their  rations  when  they 
went  in  the  store  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  I  have. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  them  express  any  feeling  toward  Dr.  Saville — 
any  of  the  Indians  with  whom  you  are  familiar  ? 

A.  Well,  I  have  ;  but  nothing  that  amounted  to  anything.  Of  course 
they  are  a  very  trifling  people,  and  say  a  great  many  trifling  things ; 
some  speak  against  him  and  some  for  him. 

Q.  What  do  those  say  of  him  who  speak  against  him  ? 

A.  They  say  a  great  many  things. 

Q.  Do  they  accuse  him  of  anything  particular,  of  any  particular  act ! 

A.  No ;  I  do  not  know  as  they  do. 

Q.  What  have  you  heard  any  of  them  say  ?  If  you  can  call  to  mind 
the  worst  charge  you  have  heard  them  make  against  him,  1  wish  you 
would  state  it. 

A.  I  never  heard  any  very  bad  charges  made  against  him  5  I  do  not 
know  as  I  could  call  to  mind  any. 

Q.  Then  you  simply  know  the  fact  that  some  of  the  Indians  dislike 
him  and  some  like  him  ? 


265 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  say  now  you  never  heard  any  specific  charge  of  fraud 
made  by  any  Indian  ? 

A.  Never  did. 

Q.  Or  deception  ? 

A.  Never  did. 

Q.  Or  unfairness  in  dealing^with  them  ? 

A.  Never  did. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  here  all  the  time,  except  when  you  have  been 
off  on  this  bone  business  'I 

A.  And  twice,  I  think,  I  have  been  to  Cheyenne  and  Fort  Laramie 
with  Mr.  Deer. 

Q.  Otherwise  you  have  been  here  close  to  the  agency  all  the  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  While  you  were  associated  with  Professor  Marsh  last  fall,  did  you 
have  any  conversation  with  him,  make  any  statements  to  him  respect 
ing  your  estimate  of  the  number  of  Indians  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir 5  I  do  not  think  the  Professor  ever  spoke  to  me  anything 
about  Indian  affairs  at  all,  no  more  than  one  day  when  I  was  picking 
up  the  fossils  at  the  fort,  Spider  and  Sword  came  up  there,  and  I  believe 
they  asked  him  for  some  little  present,  and  the  Professor  made  one  of 
them  a  little  present,  and  then  he  told  them  that  Eed  Cloud  had  asked 
him  to  show  to  the  President  those  samples — some  samples  of  poor  grub 
which,  I  believe,  the  professor  had,  and  he  had  agreed  to  do  it,  and  he 
wanted  me  to  tell  the  Indians  that  he  would  make  his  word  good,  and 
I  think  that  is  all  the  talk  the  Professor  had  with  me ;  that  was  all  the 
business  he  had  with  me  at  that  time. 

Q.  But  you  never  gave  him  any  estimate  of  the  number  of  Indians 
which  you  supposed  were  entitled  to  draw  supplies  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not  think  I  did.  I  have  given  you  all  I  remember  of  any 
talk  I  had  with  him. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  he  show  any  specimens  of  grub  to  those  Indians? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  in  reply  to  him  $ 

A.  They  did  not  make  any  reply  at  all ;  they  wanted  money ;  they 
did  not  appear  to  care  to  have  any  complaint  made  ;  they  did  not  urge 
the  matter  or  say  anything  about  it;  they  wanted  pay  for  those  bones 
the  Professor  had  taken  as  fossils. 


TESTIMONY  OF  MITCHELL  JAKYIS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  countryman  are  you? 

Answer.  I  am  from  New  Mexico,  north  of  Santa  Fe. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  I 

A.  Just  about  four  years. 

Q.  What  have  you  been  doing  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  herding  cattle  one  year  for  Mr.  George  and  three 
years  for  the  agent.  Mr.  George  was  a  man  who  had  a  contract  here 
the  first  year. 


266 

Q.  You  helped  drive  cattle  into  the  corral  about  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  after  they  are  weighed  then  I  take  care  of  them,  and 
take  them  down  to  the  herd. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  kind  of  cattle  you  had  here  last  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  November  and  December  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  Texas  cattle ;  mighty  good-sized  cattle. 

Q.  Steers? 

A.  Steers  and  a  few  cows. 

Q.  Well,  in  the  winter  and  in  the  spring  did  you  have  mostly  steers  ? 

A.  The  same  way,  some  cows  and  some  steers. 

Q.  More  steers  than  cows  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  more  steers  than  cows  ;  twice  as  many. 

Q.  Were  there  some  yearlings  among  them  sometimes  ? 

A.  Two  or  three.     We  did  not  count  them  at  all. 

Q.  Was  there  at  one  time  a  good  many  yearlings  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  recollect  of  one  time  when  there  were  a  good  many 
yearlings! 

A.  Only  once ;  they  brought  all  the  herd  here  and  then  there  were 
a  few  yearlings  among  them. 

Q.  Can  you  remember  how  many  ? 

A.  No  ;  I  cannot. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  were  counted  or  not  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  one  time  when  you  had  only  seven  cattle  left  in 
the  agent's  herd  ? 

A.  Eight.  I  was  there  at  the  herd  with  the  cook,  and  the  military 
officer  came  and  said,  "Bring  the  herd  up."  lie  wanted  to  see  it,  and 
there  were  eight  cattle  altogether. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  Most  all  cows  and  yearlings,  only  one  beeve;  they  were  small  and 
the  Indians  did  not  want  to  take  them. 

Q.  The  other  cattle  that  you  had  herded  were  better  than  these,  were 
they? 

A.  Oh,  yes;  take  them  all  through,  they  were  mighty  good  cattle. 
They  were  the  best  cattle  I  ever  saw.  I  did  not  see  very  old  cattle  at 
all ;  they  were  about  five  or  six  years  old. 

Q.  Were  all  the  herds  that  were  turned  into  the  agency  last  fall  and 
winter  good  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  mighty  good  cattle. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  them  weighed  ? 

A.  I  have  been  all  the  time  in  the  corral.    I  helped  to  weigh  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  howr  much  they  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  I  don't.     I  w^asin  the  corral  and  not  at  the  scales. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  last  winter  one  time  when  you  had  no  beeves  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  after  you  had  those  eight  head  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  eight  head  you  gave  to  the  Indians,  did  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  they  were  pretty  near  starving  and  we  gave  them  to 
them. 

Q.  Then  you  had  none? 

A.  No,  sir ;  there  were  ten  or  fifteen  days  that  we  had  no  cattle  at 
all. 


267 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  that  was  ? 

A.  No ;  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Was  it  before  Christmas  ? 

A.  After  Christmas  ;  somewhere  about  there. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  had  those  eight  head  of  cattle  ? 

A.  About  a  week,  I  guess. 

Q.  Before  they  were  issued  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  wras  at  the  time  of  the  storm. 

Q.  How  many  beeves  have  you  got  in  the  herd  now  ? 

A.  None.    I  issued  the  last  yesterday. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  when  it  wras  that  you  had  only  eight  cattle  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  General  Bradley  go  there  9 

A.  I  guess  so  ;  there  were  three  officers  and  one  man  who  had  buck 
skin  clothes. 

Q.  Was  it  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  cook  said  it  was  Professor  Marsh. 

Q.  That  might  have  been  before  Christmas  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  somewhere  along  there. 

Q.  It  was  cold  weather  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  mighty  cold  weather.  Jules  Ecoffee  was  there  at  the 
same  time. 

Q.  After  that,  along  during  the  spring,  was  there  any  time  when  you 
had  no  beef  in  the  agency  herd  f 

A.  Sometimes  we  have  no  beef  for  twenty  days. 

Q.  And  then  the  Indians  would  be  wanting  some  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  beef  on  hand  now. 

A.  No  ;  1  just  issued  the  last  yesterday. 

Q.  Do  you  issue  them  from  the  herd  yourself! 

A.  Sometimes  it  is  mighty  hard  for  me.  The  other  fellows  can  talk 
Indian,  and  some  of  the  boys  curse  the  Indians. 

Q.  That  is,  some  of  the  herders  who  are  with  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Michael  Dunn  and  Dick  Stirk  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Moorehead  ? 

A.  No ;  he  is  the  cook.  Some  of  the  Indians  understand  English 
words.  They  come  to  me  and  say,  "  What  does  he  mean  ?  He  cursed 
me  bad." 

Q.  When  you  issue  cattle  to  the  Indians,  what  do  they  do  with  them  ? 

A.  They  kill  them  right  away.  I  just  cut  them  out  from  the  herd 
and  the  Indians  kill  them  right  away. 

Q.  Do  the  Indians  grumble  to  you  about  being  hungry  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  awfully. 

Q.  All  the  time? 

A.  No ;  last  spring  it  was  mighty  hard  here,  and  they  grumbled  a 
good  deal,  and  we  had  no  beef  to  give  them. 

Q.  How  long  did  that  state  of  things  continue? 

A.  I  guess  about  twenty  days. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  did  you  issue  yesterday  ? 

A.  Two  steers. 

Q.  When  did  you  issue  any  before  that  ? 

A.  On  the  3d  of  this  month. 


268 

Q.  How  many  did  you  issue  on  the  3d  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know ;  they  were  issued  at  the  corral ;  they  were  issued 
on  foot;  they  are  all  issued  on  foot. 

Q.  Have  the  cattle  last  fall  and  last  winter  and  this  spring  been  usu 
ally  good  cattle,  big  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  good  cattle,  not  very  big.  They  looked  like  chunky 
cattle. 

Q.  Did  they  look  like  through  Texas  cattle,  or  cattle  that  had  been 
wintered  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  ;  some  looked  mighty  well. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  how  long  they  had  been  up  in  this  country  f 

A.  No  ;  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  speak  any  Indian  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir ;  the  Indians  bother  me  a  good  deal  because  I  speak  the 
language. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  ever  grumble  about  the  quality  or  kind  of  beef 
they  got;  that  it  is  not  good  beef? 

A.  No;  never  grumbled.  Sometimes  some  of  the  Indians  would  want 
a  beeve  and  some  would  want  a  cow.  They  like  cows  better  than  beeves. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians,  in  talking  to  you,  ever  grumble  about  anything 
else  they  got,  and  say  that  it  was  not  good  $ 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  tell  you  they  got  any  bad  flour? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  any  bad  coffee  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  in  their  tepees  or  lodges  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  in  the  corral. 

Q.  Do  they  come  to  talk  to  you  often  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  only  when  they  come  after  beef. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  much  do  these  beef-cattle  generally  weigh  ? 
A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Y^ou  could  not  tell  by  your  own  judgment  about  how  much  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  did  those  eight  cattle  that  you  spoke  of  compare  in  size  and 
quality  with  the  general  issues  of  cattle  to  the  Indians  1 

A.  They  were  small  cattle,  but  not  very  poor  either ;  they  were  good 
to  eat,  but  small ;  they  were  the  tail-end  of  the  herd. 

Q.  How  did  they  compare  with  the  cattle  that  were  generally  issued  ? 
Were  they  larger  or  smaller  ?  Were  they  a  fair  sample  of  all  the  cattle  ? 
Were  they  as  good  as  the  rest  ? 

A.  They  were  small;  they  were  what  we  call  yearlings.  They  were 
smaller  than  the  other  cattle.  The  Indians  did  not  want  to  take  them 
the  first  time. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Were  there  no  other  cattle  issued  during  that  year  like  those  eight? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  none  as  small  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q,  Were  there  not  any  poor  ones  among  them  ? 

A.  No;  they  were  good  size.  These  eight  were  the  tail-end  of  the 
cattle,  and  were  small  ones.  Sometimes  the  cows  have  calves,  and  they 
grow  up. 


269 

Q.  During  that  year  were  any  calves  driven  in  with  the  herd  ? 

A.  Mighty  few  calves. 

Q.  Were  they  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  they  let  them  go. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  about  that? 

A.  I  am  pretty  near  certain. 

Q.  How  many  calves  or  yearlings  carne  in  with  the  cows  ? 

A.  Three,  or  four,  or  five  ;  sometimes  none  ;  sometimes  one. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  one  time  when  there  were  fifty  or  sixty  of 
them? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  a  time  when  they  turned  them  out,  and  let 
the  Indians  kill  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  they  did  not  count  them  for  beef? 

A.  I  know  they  did  not. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  How  do  you  know  ? 

A.  Mr.  Bosler  gave  me  one.  He  said,  "  You  can  take  that  one ;  it 
does  not  count  for  a  beeve." 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  say  so  to  any  Indian  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  do  you  think  you  have  been  without  cattle  here 
for  twenty  clays  ? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  you  stated  to  the  military  officer  ! 

A.  He  just  wanted  to  see  the  cattle. 

Q.  Didn't  you  say  an j  thing  to  him  after  you  brought  them  ? 

A.  Novsir.  Jules  Ecoff'ee  asked  if  these  were  all  the  cattle,  and  I 
said,  u  Yes ;  they  are  all  the  cattle  I  have  on  hand." 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  other  herder  was  with  you  at  the  time  ? 
A.  Oliver  Appleton. 


TESTIMONY  OF  RICHARD  STIRK. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  this  agency? 

A.  I  have  been  at  this  agency  going  on  a  year  now. 

Q.  What  have  you  been  doing  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  with  this  herd  of  cattle  going  on  four  months. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  before  that  ? 

A.  I  worked  for  the  man  that  lives  here  at  the  agency,  driving  teams 
on  the  road.  His  name  is  David  Coche. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  herds  of  beef  that  were  brought  in  to  the  agency 
here  last  fall  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  those  that  were  brought  here  last  winter  ? 

A.  I  saw  some  last  winter ;  1  have  not  seen  any  only  since  I  have  been 
on  the  herd  ;  I  was  not  here  before  that  more  than  four  or  five  days  at 
a  time. 


270 

Q.  Have  you  bad  some  experience  iu  herding  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  done  right  smart  of  it. 

Q.  You  have  herded  cattle  before  now  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  are  those  that  you  generally  have  here  ? 

A.  Pretty  fair  cattle ;  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Steers  and  cows  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  proportion  of  cows  ?  Were  there  more  steers  than 
cows? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  would  average  more  steers  than  cows ;  not  a  great 
many  more. 

Q.  Were  there  sometimes  yearlings  among  them.  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  many  yearlings  to  a  herd  would  they  average  since 
you  have  been  here  ? 

A,  Since  I  have  been  here  I  never  noticed  over  eight  or  ten  yearlings 
in  a  herd. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  the  yearlings  ? 

A.  The  Indians  have  killed  some  of  them. 

Q.  Were  they  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  issued  no  yearlings  to  them. 

Q.  So  you  don't  know  anything  about  the  cattle  issued  last  winter  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  notice  the  weighing  of  the  cattle  ;  how  it  is  done 
here? 

A.  I  know  how  they  weigh  ;  I  see  them  weighed  and  help  them  weigh 
them.  I  am  in  the  corral  with  the  cattle  all  the  time  when  they  weigh 
them  •  I  drive  them  from  one  corral  on  to  the  scales. 

Q.  Don't  those  yearlings  go  on  to  the  scales  too  ? 

A.  No,  sir — yes,  sir;  some.  I  have  noticed  when  the  yearlings  went 
on  Bosler's  men  would  not  count  the  yearlings  with  the  other  cattle. 
They  weighed  them  but  told  the  men  not  to  count  them,  and  to  allow  so 
much  off  on  the  reckoning  of  their  weight. 

Q.  Do  you  know  wyhat  one  of  those  steers  will  weigh  generally — an 
average  of  them — not  what  the  biggest  would  weigh  nor  the  smallest, 
but  an  average  ? 

A.  I  should  judge  they  would  go  from  six  to  six  hundred  and  fifty  or 
seven  hundred ;  and  some  go  eight  hundred  on  the  hoof. 

Q.  And  the  cows  would  weigh  about  how  much  ? 

A.  The  cows  would  generally  average  about  six  hundred  and  fifty  or 
seven  hundred. 

Q.  Then  the  average  of  the  steers  would  not  be  more  than  that  of  the 
cows? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  it  would. 

Q.  Are  those  steers  which  you  have  seen  thus  far  usually  three-year- 
olds  or  four-year-olds  or  older  ? 

A.  From  three  to  five  I  should  judge. 

Q.  You  speak  of  having  driven  a  team  when  you  were  hauling 
freight  ? 

A.  From  Cheyenne  and  Sidney. 

Q.  Which  is  the  longer  road  ? 

A.  The  Cheyenne  road,  I  think. 

Q.  Which  is  the  better  road  ? 

A.  I  think  the  Sidney  road  is  a  little  the  better  road,  take  it  all 
through. 


271 

Q.  About  bow  much  difference  do  you  think  there  is  in  the  distance 
etween  the  two  ? 
A.  About  forty  miles. 

Q.  It  is  that  much  nearer  from  here  to  Sidney  than  from  here  to  Chey 
enne  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  between  thirty  and  forty  miles. 

Q.  You  do  not  speak  the  Indian  language? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  much.    I  understand  a  little,  and  talk  a  little. 

Q.  The  Indians  understand  a  little  English  f 

A.  Some  of  them  do,  and  some  do  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  you  think  the  weight  of  the  steers  would 
be  from  six  hundred  and  fifty  ito  eight  hundred  pounds  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  that  you  thought  would  average  a  thousand  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  have. 

Q.  You  have  seen  all  the  cattle  delivered  here  for  four  months  ? 

A.  Yes?  sir. 

Q.  You  are  testifying  from  your  own  judgment  rather  than  from  any 
knowledge  of  what  they  weighed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  cows  from  G50  to  800  ;  about  the  same  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  don't  think  there  is  much  difference. 

Q.  Now,  when  the  cattle  come  here,  when  they  are  driven  here  by 
Bosler's  men,  they  are  driven  right  to  the  corral  and  then  put  in  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  soon  after  they  get  here  are  they  usually  weighed  ? 

A.  Sometimes  they  stand  four  or  five  hours,  but  th,ey  are  weighed  on 
the  same  day. 

Q.  Have  you  plenty  of  water  at  the  corral  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  the  nearest  water  to  the  corral  ? 

A.  About  half  a  mile  above  the  corral. 

Q.  Where  do  they  generally  wTater  the  cattle  before  they  are  brought 
to  the  corral  ? 

A.  At  a  little  creek,  called  the  Little  White  Clay. 

Q.  Bo  they  generally  water  them  after  they  come  in  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  how  much  a  good-sized  thirsty  steer, 
that  has  not  had  any  water  for  twenty-four  hours,  would  drink  when 
he  got  a  chance  f 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Can  you  form  any  idea  ? 

A.  He  would  drink  enough  to  make  him  weigh  several  more  pounds. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  how  many  pailfuls  he  would  drink  ? 

A.  He  would  drink  four  or  five  pailfuls. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  practice  is  about  letting  cattle  drink  before 
they  are  weighed  at  that  corral  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  water  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don't  know  where  they  are  watered  last  before  being 
weighed  ? 

A.  I  don't  know,  but  I  should  judge  that  they  would  let  them  water 
at  the  creek,  eight  miles  from  here. 

Q.  How  long  would  it  take  to  drive  them  eight  miles  ? 


272 

A.  About  an  hour,  or  an  hour  and  a  half. 

Q.  Can  you  drive  cattle  more  than  five  miles  an  hour? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  you  can  drive  these  stock  cattle  more  than  that;  it 
may  take  longer;  I  never  timed  them. 

Q.  You  understand  that  these  cattle  drank  there  last  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  1  could  not  say. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  they  are  always  allowed  to  stop  there  and 
drink  ? 

A.  I  have  heard  the  men  say  that  they  stopped  at  White  Clay  an 
hour  or  so. 

Q.  Is  it  not  your  idea,  that  after  being  watered  they  weigh  a  hundred 
pounds  more  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  they  would  not  weigh  any  more  after  driving 
them  that  far. 

Q.  That  is,  that  they  would  not  weigh  more  than  their  ordinary 
weight  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  been  without  beef  since  you  have  been 
here  during  the  last  four  months  ? 

A.  Four  or  five  times — five,  I  believe. 

Q.  Have  beef  issues  been  delayed  on  account  of  that  ? 

A.  Once  or  twice,  I  believe,  the  issue  was  delayed  when  the  cattle 
were  not  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  each  time  ? 

A.  Not  over  ten  or  eleven  days  at  a  time.  They  aim  to  issue  every 
ten  days ;  they  may  have  gone  three  or  four  days  at  a  time  over  the 
ten  days  ;  that  was  during  the  last  high  water  on  the  Platte. 

Q.  i)o  you  know  anything  about  beef-hides  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Take  an  ox  or  a  steer  that  weighs  eight  hundred  pounds,  do  you 
know  how  much  his  hide  will  weigh ? 

A.  I  don't  know  as  ever  I  saw  one  weighed. 

Q.  How  do  they  sell  hides,  by  green  wreight  or  dry  weight? 

A.  Green  weight. 

Q.  Haven't  you  any  idea  how  much  a  green  hide  weighs  ? 

A.  About  from  sixty  to  seventy-five  pounds. 

Q.  That  is  the  hide  of  a  steer  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  suppose  in  the  same  proportion  for  a  cow  1 

A.  Some  might  go  over  that;  some  are  larger  than  others. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  the  largest  would  weigh  ? 

A.  There  might  be  some  that  would  weigh  eighty  pounds. 

Q.  And  how  much  the  smallest  that  you  know  of? 

A.  The  smallest  I  don't  think  would  go  less  than  sixty.  I  never  saw 
them  weighed.  I  don't  know  much  about  hides. 


TESTIMONY  OF  OLIVER  B.  APFLETON. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Were  you  employed  at  one  time  here  as  herder 
Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  here  last  fall  and  winter  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


273 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  occasion  when  you  had  left  only  eight  head 
of  cattle,  and  some  Army  officers  came  to  look  at  them  ? 

A.  I  remember  something  being  said  about  it,  but  I  don't  remember 
the  number  of  cattle  or  what  kind  of  cattle  they  were.  I  remember  hear 
ing  them  speak  of  some  officers  being  up  there  to  see  the  cattle. 

Q.  Were  you  there  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say.  I  was  at  the  agency,  but  whether  I  was  stopping 
there  or  here  i  do  not  know. 

Q.  You  do  not  remember  the  circumstances  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  a  time  last  fall  when  you  got  out  of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  know  we  were  out  of  cattle  sometime  last  fall,  but  I  don't  remem 
ber  dates. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  did  you  have  last  fall  as  a  general  thing? 

A.  We  had  very  good  cattle. 

Q.  Steers  and  cows  If 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Some  yearlings  among  them  I 

A.  Well,  the  yearlings  were  not  counted  in  as  cattle. 

Q.  There  were  some,  however  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  there  were  some. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  considerable  number  of  them  in  any  par 
ticular  herd  ?  i 

A.  No,  sir.  ^ 

Q.  About  how  many,  generally,  would  be  in  a  herd J?  #M 

A.  Well,  there  would  not  very  often  be  many  yearlings.  They  would 
be  mostly  small  calves.  Once  in  a  while  there  would  be  a  few  yearlings. 

Q.  What  was  done  with  the  yearlings? 

A.  They  were  issued. 

Q.  To  the  Indians  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  kept  them  altogether  in  the  herd  after  they  were  turned  over 
to  you  and  weighed  \ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  weighing  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  I  was  in  the  corral  driving  cattle  on  the  scales,  and  driving  them 
off  again. 

Q.  Did  those  yearlings  go  on  the  scales  with  the  other  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  would. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  weight  of  cittle? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  what  they  would  weigh  ;  I  did  not  hear  the 
weight  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  weighed  any  cattle  yourself  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  weighed  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  them  weighed  on  the  scales,  but  I  did  not  notice  how 
much  they  weighed. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  Was  all  the  cattle  in  the  herd  weighed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  once  in  a  while  there  would  be  one  or  two  get  mad  and 
run  over  out  of  the  corral,  so  that  we  could  not  weigh  them,  and  we  have 
to  average  them. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  take  a  few  of  the  cattle  and  average  the  rest  of  the 
herd  by  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  recolle3t  of  that  leing  done  while  I  was  at  tie 
corral. 

18  IF 


274 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  Professor  Marsli  was  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  him? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  remember  seeing  him  with  the  Army  officers  when  they 
wanted  to  see  the  tail-end  of  the  herd  you  had  left  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  else  were  herders  with  you  at  the  time  you  were  at  the  herd  ? 

A.  Mitch  el  Jarvis,  and  the  boss  herder,  McNamara ;  he  is  not  here 
now. 

Q.  Is  Mitch  el  Jarvis  a  pretty  good  judge  of  cattle  I 

A.  I  don't  know  but  he  is  a  pretty  good  judge. 

Q.  Does  he  seem  to  understand  pretty  well  about  cattle  ! 

A.  He  understands  herding,  I  know  that. 

Q.  Were  you  about  the  agency  during  the  time  you  were  here,  last 
fall  and  winter? 

A.  O,  yes,  sir;  I  was  down  here  once  in  a  while. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  issues  of  supplies  and  annuity  goods? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  what  kind  of  supplies  they  were  ? 

A.  The  provisions? 

Q.  Yes. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  seeing  some  pork  issued  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  pork  was  that  ? 

A.  It  was  very  good  pork,  only  it  was  not  the  kind  of  pork  the  In 
dians  liked.  It  was  sound,  as  far  as  that  goes,  but  it  was  mess  instead 
of  prime. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  Prime  instead  of  mess  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  coffee  that  was  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  coffee  was  it  ? 

A.  It  was  very  good  coffee ;  it  was  not  any  extra  good  coffee. 

Q.  Such  as  is  used  in  the  country  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  such  as  is  used  around  here. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  sugar  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  sugar  was  it  ? 

A.  Very  good  sugar  j  dark  brown  sugar — a  very  good  quality  of 
brown  sugar. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  the  Indians  talk  much  about  their  supplies,  or 
grumble  about  the  quality  of  them  ?  . 

A.  I  could  not  tell  anything  about  that.  I  could  not  understand  their 
language. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  Mr.  Appleton,  you  say  that  yearlings  were  issued  to  the  Indians  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Upon  what  occasion  was  that,  and  how  had  you  the  means  of 
knowing  that  fact? 
A.  I  was  at  the  issuing-corral  when  they  were  issued  ;  we  had  to  re- 


275 

eeive  cattle  and  issue  them — drive  them  out  of  the  corral  when  they 
were  being  issued. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  weight  of  the  Fyearlings  was  estimated 
by  the  agent  and  deducted  from  the  gross  weight  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  anything  about  that. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  are  a  nephew  of  Dr.  Saville  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  a  brother  here  with  the  doctor,  Frank,  a  young  man  who 
was  killed  by  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  here  at  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  your  brother's  duty  here  ? 

A.  I  think  he  was  clerk  of  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  he  have  any  trouble  here  before  he  was  killed? 

A.  Not  that  I  ever  heard  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  wanted  to  get  away  from  here? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  it  said  that  he  tried  to  go  away  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  your  father  here  ? 

A.  I  believe  he  was  here  at  one  time,  when  my  brother  was  here,  be 
fore  he  was  killed. 

Q.  He  had  been  employed  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  he  had. 

Q.  He  built  this  building? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  complain  at  all? 

A.  Who? 

Q.  Your  brother ;  did  you  hear  him  complain  of  any  duty  he  had  to 
perform  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not. 

Q.  How  old  was  he,  elder  or  younger  than  yourself? 

A.  Elder ;  two  years. 

Q.  What  is  your  age  ? 

A.  I  am  twenty-three. 

Q.  Wliere  is  your  home  ? 

A.  Sioux  City. 

Q.  Have  you  been  a  farmer's  boy,  living  on  a  farm  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  lived  on  a  farm  a  week  in  my  life. 

Q.  Yrou  have  no  judgment  about  the  weight  of  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  watering  of  cattle  before  they  go 
to  the  corral  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  know  anything  about  where  they  are  watered? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  watered  them  there  yourself? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  time  when  there  were  a  good  many  calves  in 
the  herd  ? 

A   There  are  most  always  some  few  calves  in  the  herd. 
Q.  How  many  generally  ? 


276 

A.  Sometimes  there  would  be  a  lot,  and  sometimes  none;  sometimes 
five,  six,  eight,  or  ten. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  there  was  any  unusual  number  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  say  there  were  calves.  You.  make  a  distinction  between 
calves  and  yearlings  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  the  yearlings  were  driven  on  the  scales  and  weighed  ; 
liow  about  the  calves  ? 

A.  They  were  hardly  ever  weighed  $  the  Indians  would  kill  them  be 
fore  the  cattle  were  weighed. 

Q,  Then  they  would  not  reckon  at  all  in  any  way  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Spring  calves  came  in  with  their  mothers  in  the  fall,  and  those  the 
Indians  were  allowed  to  take  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  gave  instructions  to  that  effect? 

A.  I  doirt  know  as  anybody  did ;  they  took  it  into  their  own  hands  j 
if  they  could  catch  a  calf  they  would  take  it. 

Q.  No  objection  was  made  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  any  calves  get  on  the  scales  ? 

A.  Once  in  a  Avhile  one  might  get  on,  but  very  seldom. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  deducting  their  weight  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  took  the  weight  ? 

A.  The  agent  or  the  clerk,  whoever  weighed  the  cattle.  When  the 
agent  was  here  he  generally  weighed  them  ;  when  he  was  not  here  his 
clerk  did  it. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Wednesday,  August  11,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 
OLIVER  B.  APPLETON  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Appleton,  you  were  at  one  time  the  commissary  in 
charge  of  the  provisions  in  the  warehouse  here  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  yon  remember  of  sugar  being  delivered  to  the  trader  from  the 
commissary  9 

A.  No,  sir;  I  was  commissary  last  fall  when  Mr.  Roberts  was  clerk. 
I  never  heard  of  anything  being  given  to  the  trader,  only  what  was  in 
the  newspapers;  I  never  heard  of  any  blue  cloth  being  given  to  the 
trader  ;  I  never  heard  of  anybody  doing  so.  The  traders  keep  blue 
cloth,  but  whether  it  is  the  same  quality  as  the  Indian  cloth,  I  don't 
know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  return  of  a  barrel  of  sugar? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Roberts  said  you  were  accused  of  taking  goods  that  did  not 
belong  to  you. 

A.  I  never  did.     I  knew  who  wrote  the  articles  and  paid  no  attention 


277 

to  them.  I  supposed  it  to  be  George  Stover  who  wrote  the  articles  ;  his 
name  was  signed  to  one  of  them,  and  the  supposition  is  that  he  was  the 
author  of  the  rest  of  them.  He  is  not  a  reliable  man ;  he  has  the  repu 
tation  of  doing  such  things  at  the  Spotted  Tail  agency,  and  on  the  Mis 
souri  River;  he  was  down  on  me  because  I  would  not  give  him  all  the 
rations  he  wanted;  he  is  a  squaw-man. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Monday,  August  9, 1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BENJAMIN  TIBBETS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  employment  I 

Answer.  Butcher,  sir. 

Q.  For  the  agency  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  came  here,  I  think  it  was,  the  6th  of  August  two  years  ago. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  here  ever  since  ? 

A.  I  was  at  the  old  agency  before  it  was  moved. 

Q.  Since  you  have  been  here,  have  you  generally  seen  the  most  of  the 
cattle  that  have  been  brought  in  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  pretty  much  all  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  seeing  cattle  that  were  brought  in  here  last 
November  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  know  as  I  really  remember. 

Q.  About  the  time  of  the  cold  weather  before  Christmas  ? 

A.  I  was  here  for  two  years  all  the  time,  and  have  not  been  away 
except  once  to  Horse  Creek  and  once  to  Cheyenne. 

Q.  So  you  were  here  last  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  appearance  of  the  herds  of  cattle  that  were  turned 
in  here  last  fall  as  compared  with  the  cattle  you  are  receiving  now ; 
were  they  as  good  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  they  were  very  good  cattle.  I  have  not  been 
here  during  the  last  two  issues,  but  previous  to  that  they  were  as  good, 
or  probably  a  little  better. 

Q.  Were  those  herds  that  you  saw  delivered  here  last  spring  and  fall 
mostly  composed  of  steers  and  cows  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A.nd  some  yearlings  ? 

A.  A  few  yearlings  came  in. 

Q.  About  what  proportion  of  steers  and  cows  were  there  ;  were  there 
more  steers  than  cows? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  should  think  probably  two-thirds  steers  and  one-third 
cows  ;  probably  more  than  that. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  one  occasion  when  there  were  a  good  many 
yeai lings  in  the  herd — calves  and  yearlings? 

A.  There  was  one  time,  I  think  it  was  this  last  spring  or  last  fall — I 
canriot  be  sure  which,  but  last  spring,  I  think — when  there  were  a  good 
majy  yearlings  in  the  herd. 


278 

Q.  Can  you  form  an  estimate  of  about  how  many  yearlings  and  calves 
there  were  in  that  herd  I 

A.  I  could  not  say  exactly.  I  never  paid  any  particular  attention  to 
the  number;  probably  there  were  twenty-five  head  and  probably  there 
were  not  that  many. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  occasion  when  there  were  left  eight  head  of 
cattle  in  the  herd  here,  and  that  they  were  examined  by  some  military 
officers  and  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  remember  the  time. 

Q.  Did  you  see  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Well,  the  cattle  that  you  received  along  last  fall  and  winter  during 
cold  weather,  what  would  they  average  in  weight,  take  them  all  around  ? 

A.  I  should  think  they  would  go  900  pounds;  probably  heavier  than 
that 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  them  weighed  ? 

A.  I  always  tended  the  gate  at  the  lower  end  of  the  scales,  and  counted 
the  cattle  as  they  went  out,  and  called  the  number.  The  clerk  gener 
ally  weighed  them,  and  I  called  out  "  all  right.'7 

Q.  In  counting  the  number  of  head,  did  you  count  the  yearlings  and 
calves? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  the  yearlings  and  calves  would  pass  through  on  to  the  scales  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  rush  by  the  Indians  for  the  calves.  They 
would  rather  have  a  calf  than  a  cow;  they  would  take  the  calves  before 
they  got  into  the  corral,  but  the  yearlings  would  run  through  the  scales 
and  get  weighed  ;  but  we  never  counted  the  yearlings,  as  long  as  I  staid 
at  the  gate. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  Indians  generally  got  for  beef-hides  here  ? 

A.  They  have  been  getting  four  dollars  until  lately,  and  the  price  has 
been  cut  down  to  three,  I  believe.  Before  that  they'  got  three,  and  two 
and  a  half,  and  on  the  Platte  for  two  years  they  got  two  dollars;  that 
was  the  highest  that  was  paid  there  for  two  years. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  the  Indians  grumble  about  the  quality  of 
beef  they  get  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  never  did ;  sometimes  a  man  would  grumble  a  little,  if 
he  got  one*  that  was  thin.  Of  course  they  all  like  to  get  the  fattest 
cattle  that  are  there,  and  if  one  man  gets  a  thin  one,  he  grumbles,  bat 
of  course  all  the  cattle  have  to  be  issued. 

Q.  Do  you  speak  the  Indian  language  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  a  little. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  the  Indians  grumble  about  the  kind  of  sup 
plies  they  were  getting — coffee,  sugar,  flour,  and  tobacco  ? 

A.  I  have  heard  them  grumble  some.  They  would  say  that  the  to 
bacco  was  not  good. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  grumble  about  the  other  articles  ? 

A.  Sometimes  they  would  say  of  an  article,  "  This  is  not  good-,"  and 
"That  is  not  good;"  and  it  is' natural  for  them  all  to  do  that. 

Q.  Did  you  yourself  see  the  supplies  that  were  issued  to  them  last 
fall? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Part  of  the  time  last  fall  I  worked  in  the  warehouse  as 
watchman.  I  did  not  have  a  great  deal  to  do.  I  worked  most  of  the 
time  in  the  warehouse,  and  issued  a  great  deal  in  the  warehouse  myself. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  kind  of  coffee  you  issued  there! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


279 

Q.  How  would  it  cornp  ire  with  that  coffee  ?  [Sample  shown.]  Was 
it  something  like  that  1 

A.  I  should  think  it  was  as  good  as  that;  I  don't  really  know  that 
it  was  quite  as  good  as  that ;  it  was  a  little  darker  ;  but  all  the  last 
coffee  that  has  come  here  has  been  as  good  as  that,  if  not  better. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  coffee  issued  last  fall  that  was  bad  and 
not  fit  to  use  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  never  was  any  bad  coffee  at  the  agency,  only  two 
or  three  sacks  or  four  or  five  sacks  that  got  moldy — some  that  was 
moved  from  the  Platte  up  here  when  we  first  came  here,  when  Dr.  Dan 
iels  was  here. 

Q.  The  kind  of  coffee  that  was  issued,  was  it  the  kind  of  coffee  that 
the  white  men  use  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  coffee,  sugar,  and  flour  are  the  same. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Taken  from  the  warehouse  for  your  use  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  anything  wrong  about  the  sugar — whether  it  was 
bad  in  any  respect  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  kind  of  sugar  was  it  ? 

A.  Dark-brown  sugar — very  good  sugar.  It  would  have  come  very 
good  this  spring  if  we  had  had  a  little  of  it.  We  were  out  of  sugar  for 
some  time. 

Q.  Have  you  occasionally  been  out  of  beef,  so  that  you  had  none  to 
issue  ? 

A.  Not  lately.  Sometimes  during  the  winter  it  was  hard  to  get  cattle 
here  to  make  issues  regularly,  on  account  of  the  storms. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  slaughtered  and  weighed  a  good  many  cattle, 
haven't  you  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir.  I  weighed  them  pretty  much  for  a  year  before  the  scales 
were  put  up ;  perhaps  it  could  not  have  been  more  than  six  months. 

Q.  Well,  the  cattle  that  were  received  and  issued  last  fall  and  winter, 
about  what  would  they  average,  take  them  all  around,  as  near  as  you  can 
guess  ? 

A.  Well,  gentlemen,  that  is  a  pretty  hard  question  for  me  to  answer. 
Cattle  come  here  and  slip  past  without  a  person  noticing  them,  if  his  at 
tention  is  not  called  to  them ;  but  I  should  think  the  cattle  would  go  950 
pounds,  or  probably  over  that. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  particularly  of  the  cattle  received  last  fall  and 
winter. 

A.  There  have  been  some  very  large  cattle,  and  some  that  would  not 
weigh  quite  as  much ;  and  some  as  fine  cattle  came  here  as  I  ever  saw 
in  my  life. 

Q.  These  cattle  that  you  received  during  last  fall,  were  they  generally 
steers  and  cows  mixed  together  ? 

A.  Most  of  them  would  be  steers. 

Q.  Four-year-old  steers  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  four  or  five  year  old  steers,  and  some  would  be  younger — 
three-year-olds. 

Q.  About  what  would  an  ordinary  Texas  steer,  four  years  old,  gen 
erally  weigh  ? 


280 

A.  Well,  it  is  a  good  deal  owing  to  his  age. 

Q.  Say  four  years  old. 

A.  A  good  ordinary  steer  four  years  old  will  net  450  or  500  pounds 
dressed. 

Q.  Well,  an  ordinary  Texas  cow  that  is  in  reasonably  good  order,  do 
you  know  what  that  would  average  ? 

A.  They  vary  more  in  regard  to  weight  than  the  steers ;  I  killed  a 
cow  last  fall  and  weighed  her  in  the  scales,  and  she  weighed  net  G50 
pounds ;  and  I  killed  others  that  would  not  weigh  over  400;  it  would 
be  quite  a  heifer  that  would  go  over  350  ;  an  ordinary  cow  w7ould  dress 
about  400. 

Q.  According  to  your  experience,  about  what  is  the  difference  between 
the  net  weight  and  gross  weight  ? 

A.  They  generally  allow  about  one-half  in  this  country  in  Texas 
cattle.  I  don't  think  they  allow  that  much  in  the  States  'in  stall-fed 
cattle. 

Q.  Texas  cattle  have  larger  horns  and  larger  feet  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  are  pretty  well  horned. 

By  Mr.  ATI-IERTON  : 

Q.  There  was  one  thing  I  did  not  quite  understand ;  or  rather  one 
thing  I  would  like  explained  a  little  more  fully.  You  state  in  regard  to 
driving  those  cattle  on  the  scales,  that  they  are  driven  in  when  they 
come  up  ;  you  count  them  all,  but  the  yearlings  are  not  counted  in 
making  up  the  weight? 

A.  I  don't  know  in  regard  to  the  weight;  I  only  know  in  regard  to 
the  number. 

Q.  Why  do  you  count  theai  at  all  ? 

A.  I  don't  count  them. 

Q.  1  understood  you  to  say  you  counted  every  one  as  it  went  out ; 
why  do  you  count  them  <? 

A.  Because  the  person  that  weighs  them  has  not  a  chance  to  see  them 
in  the  scales ;  and  as  they  pass  from  the  scales  out  through  the  gate,  I 
halloo  out  the  number  of  head. 

Q.  What  is  done  with  the  count  ? 

A.  That  is  kept  by  the  agent  or  whoever  weighs  them. 

Q.  When  you  come  to  issue  the  cattle,  what  becomes  of  those  year 
lings  that  you  do  not  count  ? 

A.  They  are  generally  given  to  the  Indians.  Sometimes  they  are  killed 
in  the  corral  and  sometimes  out  of  the  corral.  If  one  gets  out  it  is 
gone. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  the  ordinary  weight  of  a  green  hide1? 

A.  I  don't  know ;  I  have  seen  hides  that  weighed  100  pounds  and  some 
over.  These  hides  are  generally  trimmed  close.  Neither  the  head  nor 
feet  are  on  the  hides,  and  oftentimes  the  tail  is  thrown  away.  I  never 
skin  the  head  or  even  the  feet.  I  take  them  off  at  the  first  joint  and 
throw  them  awray. 

Q.  What  would  you  suppose  such  a  hide  would  weigh  ? 

A.  That  is  another  question  that  is  very  hard  to  answer ;  hides  vary 
according  to  the  cattle. 

Q.  Say  an  average  four-year-old  steer? 

A.  I  should  think  the  green  hide  of  a  four-year-old  steer  would  weigh 
75  or  80  pounds. 

Q.  What  would  the  same  hide  weigh  when  dried? 

A.  I  could  not  answer  the  question  at  all. 

Q.  You  are  employed  here  as  a  butcher  for  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 


281 

Q.  What  work  have  you  to  do  as  butcher  ? 

A.  1  have  sometimes,  I  think,  twenty-five  head  of  cattle  to  kill  for 
issue-day.  They  are  all  killed  on  the  ground  and  issued  out.  I  have  all 
that  to  do. 

Q.  To  whom  are  they  issued  ? 

A.  Principally  to  all  the  old  women  and  children  who  have  no  men 
to  look  after  them.  They  draw  all  the  way  from  three  to  fifteen.  They 
get  all  the  way  from  45  pounds  to  half  a  beeve. 

Q.  And  then  you  slaughter  beef  for  the  mess-hall  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  the  cattle  for  that  purpose  ? 

A.  At  the  agency-herd. 

Q.  About  how  many  do  you  have  to  slaughter  for  the  agency  itself? 

A.  I  generally  kill  about  one  or  two  every  ten  days. 

Q.  Say  five  or  six  a  month  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  sometimes  in  the  summer  they  don't  use  all  of  it,  and  we 
give  some  of  it  to  the  old  women. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  that  you  butcher  for  the  agency. 

A.  That  is  what  I  am  speaking  of  now. 

Q.  Do  you  select  from  the  herd  the  cattle  that  are  taken  for  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  no  selection  about  it  at  all.  I  go  up,  and  if  there  is  a  plenty 
there  I  take  a  good  one,  and  oftentimes  there  is  only  one  or  two  left. 
It  is  Hobson's  choice — that  or  none. 

Q.  When  you  kill  cattle  for  the  regular  issue,  you  kill  for  the  agency 
at  the  same  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  portion  of  your  time  is  occupied  in  this  work  ?  You 
speak  of  being  occupied  in  the  warehouse  sometimes.  About  what  por 
tion  of  your  time  is  occupied  as  butcher  '? 

A.  A  part  of  the  time  I  have  not  a  great  deal  to  do,  and  at  other 
times  I  have  a  great  deal  to  do.  In  the  summer  time  I  have  to  work 
sometimes  late  and  early. 

Q.  About  what  portion  of  your  time  do  you  say  is  occupied  as  butcher  ? 

A.  Over  one-half  of  the  time. 

Q.  Were  you  in  the  warehouse  last  year  when  the  annuity-goods 
were  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  issue  of  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  were  issued  ? 

A.  I  could  not  remember  the  number  5  I  helped  to  cut  all  the  bales, 
and  gave  out  the  number  that  went  to  the  different  bands  ;  but  I  did 
not  keep  an  account. 

Q.  Can  you  not  fix  some  estimate  ? 

A.  I  should  think,  gentlemen,  there  were  between  thirty-five  and 
forty  bales  of  blankets.  I  could  not  say  whether  there  were  more  or 
less. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  same  number  that  were  ordinarily  issued  '? 

A.  I  think  not.  I  think  we  were  a  little  short  last  year.  I  don't  think 
the  annuity-issue  was  as  large  as  it  had  been  for  two  years  previous. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  size  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  were  three  points,  two  points  and  a  half,  and,  I 
think,  a  point  and  a  half. 

Q.  A  point  and  a  half  being  the  smallest? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  of  the  proportion  of  these  blankets — 
the  number  of  each  size? 


282 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  the  persons  receiving  them  complain  of  the 
size  of  the  blankets,  one  way  or  the  other  ? 
A.  None  at  all. 

By  Mr.  HAKEIS  : 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  those  two  corrals  are  as  if  one  were  out  that 
way  [pointing]  and  one  out  this  way,  with  a  gate  at  each  end,  and  a 
platform  for  the  scales  between  them,  as  if  in  this  room  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  cattle  are  on  the  platform  and  the  scales  are  on  the  out 
side  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  man  who  weighs  them  is  in  no  condition  to  see  what  he 
has  got  011  the  platform  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  would  not  know  whether  he  had  steers,  yearlings,  or  calves 
upon  the  scales  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  takes  the  weight,  and  your  business  is  to  let  them  out  and 
give  him  the  number  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  in  every  instance  where  yearlings  were  put  on  the  scales 
and  weighed,  as  you  have  mentioned,  the  weigher  did  not  know  it? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  did  not  know  it;  there  might  be  a  yearling  on  and  he 
not  know  it. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  count  it  1 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  while  the  number  don't  appear  the  weight  does  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  earthly  way  that  the  weigher  would  know  how 
many  had  passed  on  his  scales  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  isn't  it  a  matter  of  fact  that  they  went  through  those  scales, 
and  were  weighed,  and  reckoned  as  weight,  but  did  not  reckon  as  head 
of  cattle  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  they  were  counted  at  all. 

Q.  So  that  the  yearlings  helped  to  increase  the  average  weight  of  the 
cattle. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And,  so  far  as  you  know,  they  went  to  fill  the  contract  requiring 
so  many  hundred  thousand  pounds  of  beef. 

A.  They  must  have  been  weighed,  for  they  went  on  the  scales ;  but 
I  have  known  several  of  them  to  have  been  killed  before  they  had  a 
chance  to  go  on  the  scales. 

Q.  After  they  were  turned  out,  being  small  head  of  cattle,  the  In 
dians  captured  them  and  killed  them  if  they  got  a  chance  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  considered  it  rather  a  waste  to  have  such  cattle  come  in  any 
way,  which  could  not  be  called  fit  for  beef? 

A.  Y^es,  sir;  it'is  not  good  beef;  but  the  Indians  are  particularly  fond 
of  anything  that  is  young.  Even  if  it  is  a  slunk  calf,  they  would  rather 
have  it. 


283 


TESTIMONY  OF  ALFKED  T.  LOBACH. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Lobach,  what  are  you  employed  at  here  ? 

Answer.  I  ain  a  farmer,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  in  the  employment  of  the  agency  here  as  farmer? 

A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  extent  of  yonr  farming  operations  here  ?  How  much 
ground  have  you  got  under  cultivation  for  the  agency. 

A.  Between  75  and  80  acres,  among  the  Indians,  that  I  have  plowed 
up  for  them. 

Q.  You  direct  their  farming  operations  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Y'our  business  is  to  teach  the  Indians  farming,  as  far  as  you  can  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  adaptability  of  the  soil  and  climate  around  here  to 
farming  purposes  ? 

A.  Well,  it  is  very  good.  Oar  greatest  trouble  here  comes  from  the 
grasshoppers. 

Q.  The  soil  is  productive  ? 

A.  The  soil  is  good. 

Q.  That  is,  in  some  places  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  in  some  places;  I  don't  say  in  every  place. 

Q.  The  places  where  it  is  good  are  in  the  valleys  of  the  streams? 

A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  raise  anything  here  without  irrigating  the  land  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir  ;  I  didn't  irrigate  any  last  summer  at  all. 

Q.  Did  you  raise  anything  last  summer  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir ;  I  raised  as  fine  corn  as  I  ever  saw. 

Q.  About  how  many  Indians  are  there  engaged  in  agriculture — who  do 
anything  at  farming? 

A.  1  have  the  list  in  my  room,  and  the  number  of  Indians  that  are 
farming,  and  the  quantity  of  ground  that  they  have  under  cultivation. 
I  have  the  names  of  the  Indians  who  are  farming,  and  the  quantity  of 
ground  that  each  party  has  ;  two,  three,  four,  or  eight  in  a  party. 

Q.  Do  you  find  a  good  many  of  the  Indians  inclined  to  learn  how  to 
farm  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  are  a  good  many  who  take  a  great  interest  in  farm 
ing.  There  are  some  who  will  go  right  with  them  and  destroy  what 
they  put  in.  That  has  been  done  this  summer. 

Q.  I  suppose  those  are  Indians  who  want  to  follow  the  chase  and  the 
war-path. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Some  of  that  class  think  it  is  very  degrading  for  an  Indian  to  work 
on  a  farm,  don't  they  ? 

A.  They  think  it  is  a  disgrace  for  an  Indian  to  work  at  all ;  they 
think  it  is  not  right  to  follow  the  white  man's  way  at  all.  I  have  some 
that  have  worked  very  hard  this  summer. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  out  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  in  this  country  about  fifteen  years. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  was  employed  the  27th  of  last  April  a  year  ago. 

Q.  Do  you  speak  the  Sioux  language  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  can  understand  a  little  ;  I  have  to  get  along  this  sum 
mer  by  riding  round  and  getting  them  to  understand  as  well  as  1  can 


284 

what  is  wanted.  I  can  understand  some  of  their  talk,  and  I  talk  a 
little ;  1  can  speak  a  few  words  of  their  language  and  I  can  do  a  little 
by  signs,  a  very  little,  though. 

Q.  If  grasshoppers  did  not  coine,  don't  you  think  you  could  raise 
pretty  good  crops  of  corn,  of  potatoes  and  wheat  in  these  valleys 
here1? 

A.  Yes,  we  could  do  very  well  with  corn  and  potatoes.  I  did  not  try 
any  wheat  last  year  ;  I  tried  tomatoes  and  summer  vegetables.  I  had 
corn  last  summer  about  14  inches  long. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  Is  that  sweet  corn  ? 
A.  It  is  what  they  call  Mexican  corn. 
Q.  Is  it  for  eating  green  or  for  feeding  cattle  ? 
A.  It  is  for  eating  green  ;  it  is  winter  corn. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  tomatoes  grow  well  here  ? 

A.  The  season  is  not  quite  long  enough  for  tomatoes. 

Q.  Bo  you  raise  pumpkins  here  ? 

A.  I  raised  very  fine  pumpkins  and  squash  and  very  fine  beets.  I 
raised  beets  here  last  year  that  were  four  or  five  inches  in  diameter,  and 
as  fine  lettuce  as  I  ever  saw. 

Q.  How  is  it  about  watermelons  ? 

A.  Watermelons  don?t  do  very  well  here. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Did  you  put  down  any  manure? 
A.  I  did  not  last  spring. 
Q.  Did  you  find  it  necessary  I 

A.  If  the  ground  was  worked  very  often  I  think  it  would  be  neces 
sary. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  alkali  in  the  soil  here  ? 

A.  None  in  the  ground  that  I  plowed  up. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  tried  to  raise  any  fruit-trees  in  this  vicinity — peach 
or  apple  ? 

A.  No,  dr;  I  tried  apple-trees;  planted  some  seed,  but  it  did  not 
grow. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Lobach,  with  your  knowledge  of  the  Indians,  and  your 
knowledge  of  this  particular  locality,  and  your  knowledge  of  the  sub 
ject  of  farming,  what  suggestion  would  you  make  in  regard  to  encour 
aging  the  Indians  more  generally  to  engage  in  farming?  Are  there  any 
means  that  you  think  would  be  well  to  employ  for  that  purpose  that 
are  not  being  employed  at  present? 

A.  No ;  they  have  not  ground  enough  in  this  vicinity  here  to  put 
them  all  to  farming.  There  are  a  great  many  that  would  go  to  farming 
if  they  had  a  good  country  to  farm  in.  There  are  a  great  many  who 
wanted  to  go  over  on  Running  Water  to  farm,  but  some  other  Indians 
stopped  them  and  would  not  allow  them  to  go  over  there. 

Q.  Did  they  give  any  reason  for  that? 

A.  Well,  they  did  not  want  them  to  go  to  farming  too  extensively  this 
year.  They  wanted  them  to  wait  a  while;  there  would  be  a  great 
many  more  farming  this  year,  no  doubt,  if  it  had  not  been  for  the  in 
fluence  of  some  white  men  here  who  endeavored  to  dissuade  them  from, 
farming.  Some  Indians  told  me  that  white  men  had  told  them  they 
were  fools  for  going  to  work. 


285 

Q.  Are  you  pretty  well  acquainted  on  this  reservation  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  the  best  locality  for  farming  purposes  on  the  reserva 
tion  ? 

A.  In  this  part  of  the  country  or  Bunning  Water  is  the  best.  There 
is  a  large  party  wanted  to  go  on  Eunuing  Water  to  farm  this  summer. 

Q.  Is  there  upon  the  reservation  any  good  soil  for  farming  that  you 
are  aware  of? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  there  is. 

Q.  Where  does  it  lie? 

A.  I  don't  know  the  name  of  the  creek,  but  it  is  southeast  of  the 
Cheyenne  Eiver. 

Q.  Is  it  a  tributary  of  the  Cheyenne? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  empties  into  the  Cheyenne.  It  is  good  soil,  and  it  is 
the  best  stock-country  I  have  ever  saw. 

Q.  About  how  far  is  that  from  here  ? 

A.  Well,  as  near  as  I  can  tell  by  traveling  over  it  on  horseback, 
about  thirty-five  miles,  or  perhaps  a  little  more. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Is  there  more  water  there  than  there  is  down  this  way  ? 

A.  It  is  a  pretty  well  watered  country. 

Q.  Is  the  land  immediately  around  the  agency  here  considered  good 
gra  zing-land? 

A.  Well,  we  have  good  grazing  here  until  about  this  time  of  year, 
and  then  the  grass  is  pretty  well  eaten  up.  Just  about  this  time  we 
have  our  dry  weather. 

Q.  And  then  the  cattle  have  to  go  for  good  grazing  how  far? 

A.  Well,  you  get  good  grazing  four  miles  southwest  of  here ;  east  of 
here  you  get  good  grazing-land;  there  are  a  good  many  springs  east  of 
the  agency  here ;  within  four  or  five  miles. 

Q.  I  noticed  in  coming  down  the  valley  of  White  River  that  there  is 
very  little  land  that  is  of  any  use  for  agricultural  purposes. 

A.  After  you  get  three  or  four  miles  above  here  the  valley  is  very 
narrow. 

Q.  From  there  down  the  stream  is  the  valley  wider  and  the  land  bet 
ter  for  agricultural  purposes  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  are  a  great  many  creeks  between  here  and  Spotted 
Tail  agency  that  you  could  put  from  ten  to  fifteen  families  on. 

Q.  And  are  there  timber  and  water  ? 

A.  There  is  plenty  of  water. 

Q.  Any  timber  ? 

A.  And  the  bluffs  are  very  close,  and  there  is  tolerably  good  timber 
on  the  bluffs,  some  that  is  from  six  to  twelve  inches  square.  Timber 
can  be  brought  out  right  over  the  bluffs. 

Q.  Is  it  very  difficult  to  get  it  down  from  there  ? 

A.  No,  it  is  not  so  much  bother,  but  it  requires  work. 

Q.  You  cannot  drive  wagons  up  on  the  mountains,  where  you  could 
load  the  timber  on  generally? 

A.  No,  not  generally  ;  but  you  can  in  some  places. 

Q.  l)o  you  think  places  could  be  found  on  the  reservation  where  the 
Indians  could  engage  in  farming,  grazing,  and  raising  cattle  and  horses 
to  better  advantage  than  right  in  this  locality  ? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  that  they  could  better  themselves  at  present  j 
after  they  got  to  quiet  themselves  down  more  they  might. 

Q.  If  they  were  disposed  to  engage  in  farming  and  raising  cattle,  are 
there  not  better  places  for  them  to  go  to  do  that  than  right  here? 


286 

A.  Yes,  I  believe  there  are. 

Q.  You  think  probably  up  on  the  stream  emptying  into  the  Cheyenne 
would  be  a  better  location  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  you  observe  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  any  inclination,  any 
taste,  any  disposition  to  raise  stock  and  horses? 

A.  Yes;  they  could  do  it  better  where  1  am  speaking  of. 

Q.  I  ask  you,  do  they  show  any  disposition  to  engage  in  that  sort  of 
labor? 

A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  the  Government  would  do  better  l>y  encour 
aging,  on  the  part  of  the  Indian,  a  taste  for  growing  cattle  rather 
than  agriculture,  in  this  region  of  country  ? 

A.  Well,  it  would  be  better  for  the  Indians,  but  they  are  more  in 
clined  to  farming  than  to  raising  stock. 

Q.  You  think  so  ? 

A.  Well,  I  just  take  it  from  their  talk. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  labor  was  regarded  by  them  as  de 
grading  ? 

A.  They  have  their  women  work,  but  they  don't  work  themselves. 

Q.  Could  not  they  accomplish  that  better  by  making  their  women  at 
tend  to  their  herds ? 

A.  Understand  me  aright;  they  don't  work  themselves — but  very  few 
of  them.  Some  of  them  work  very  hard ;  they  make  their  women  do 
all  their  farming,  but  not  attend  to  stock;  their  women  don't  go  near  any 
cattle;  or  when  they  do  have  cattle,  they  generally  have  either  a  half- 
breed  or  a  white  man  to  take  care  of  them. 

Q.  Now,  the  point  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  is  this :  The  Gov 
ernment  seems  to  be  bent  on  civilizing  the  Indians.  The  Government 
proposes  to  do  that  by  inculcating  a  taste  for  agriculture.  Would  it  not 
be  more  expedient  for  the  Government  to  cultivate  a  taste  for  rearing 
cattle  as  a  means  of  self-support  for  the  Indians  ? 

A.  It  would  be  better  for  the  Indians. 

Q.  Then  of  course  what  would  be  better  for  the  Indians  is  better  for 
the  Government? 

A.  It  Avould  be  better  for  the  Indians;  no  doubt  it  would  be  less  ex 
pensive  for  the  Government  to  get  them  to  raise  stock  than  to  get  them 
to  farm  ;  I  think  that  myself. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that  the  character  of  the  country  as  well  as  the 
character  of  the  Indian  population  make  cattle-raising  better  adapted  to 
the  situation  than  agricultural  pursuits? 

A.  Yes,  I  do  think  so. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  many  assistants  do  you  employ,  Mr.  Lobach  ? 

A.  I  had  three  this  summer,  Antoine  Janis,  Andrew  Barrett,  who  is 
a  half-breed,  and  John  'Bridgman — and  Frank  Sal  way,  a  half-breed. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  time  have  these  men  been  employed  in  farming  ? 

A.  Well,  they  have  been  occupied  steadily  at  work  all  the  time  ever 
since  I  have  had  them  farming,  ever  since  the  farming  season  came  in. 
The  only  men  that  are  employed  at  present  are  Bridgman  and  Barrett ; 
but  Bridgman  told  me  the  other  day  he  was  going  to  quit,  and  Barrett 
is  the  only  man  now  employed.  Sal  way  is  now  working  for  himself. 

Q.  What  was  your  employment  before  you  went  to  farming  here? 


287 

A.  I  was  working  for  Mr.  Ecoffee,  at  FortLaramie,  running  his  train. 
I  had  charge  of  his  mule-train.    I  had  general  charge  around  his  place. 
Q.  Had  you  farming  work  to  do  there  ? 
A.  I  did  some  gardening  for  him. 
Q.  Have  you  always  been  employed  in  farming  ? 
A.  Not  all  the  time  I  have  been  in  this  western  country. 
Q.  Before  you  came  here,  were  you  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  born  and  raised  on  a  farm  in  Penuslyvania. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q,  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  cattle  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  go  down  sometimes  and  pull  out  the  beef  for  the 
butcher. 

Q.  You  have  been  a  farmer  all  your  days  ;  you  know  something  about 
cattle ;  you  see  cattle  in  the  herds  and  in  the  agency-corral  ? 

A.  I  go  down  and  select  the  cattle  for  the  butcher  to  kill. 

Q.  What  do  you  generally  find  them  to  be  composed  of — steers  or 
cows  ? 

A.  In  the  fall  of  the  year  we  generally  have  steers,  and  in  the  spring 
and  fore  part  of  the  summer  they  generally  have  them  mixed — cows  and 
steers  together. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  what  would  be  the  average  weight  of  the  cows 
and  steers,  take  them  together  ? 

A.  I  should  think  they  would  run  from  850  to  900  pounds,  as  near  as 
I  could  tell ;  I  could  not  say  ;  I  never  was  there  when  they  were  being- 
weighed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  percentage  which  a  beef's  hide 
bears  to  his  wrhole  weight!  There  is  a  rule  among  men  familiar  with 
those  matters,  I  believe. 

A.  I  do  not  know  exactly ;  I  should  think  from  75  to  80  pounds. 

Q.  That  would  be  about  the  weight  of  the  hide  of  a  900-pound  steer? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  as  near  as  I  could  tell;  I  never  weighed  any  here. 

Q.  Have  you  been  cognizant  of  the  fact  that  the  Indians  have  some 
times  sold  their  flour  after  it  has  been  delivered  to  them  from  the  agency 
buildings  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  have  been  accustomed  to  buy  flour  from  the  In 
dians  here  in  that  way  ? 

A.  No;  I  could  not  mention  any  man's  name;  I  could  not  say,  but  I 
have  seen  them  sell  it  out  there. 

Q.  Sell  it  right  on  the  ground  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  it  loaded  up  in  wagons  ? 

A.  No ;  1  have  seen  them  let  it  lay  right  there,  and  take  the  money, 
if  strangers  would  be  here  buying  corn  and  flour,  and  they  would  pay 
the  Indians  money  for  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  price  at  which  they  have  been  accustomed  to 
sell  their  flour  ! 

A.  From  50  cents  to  $2  a  sack. 

Q.  Now,  is  it  a  fact  that  freighters  supply  themselves,  or  have  to  any 
extent  supplied  themselves,  with  it  in  that  way  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  a  freighter  buy  a  pound  from  any  one  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  is  given  to  them  through  the  hands  of 
other  people  *? 

A.  I  don't  think  a  pound  ever  went  to  a  freighter. 

Q.  What  you  refer  to  is,  an  exchange  between  Indians  and  white  peo 
ple  here  ? 


288 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Did 'you  ever  see  Randall  buy  any  I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  him  to  have  any  around  his  buildings? 

A.  I  have  never  been  around  his  buildings  to  notice  anything  of  the 
kind. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  pork  that  they  had  here  last  year 
in  the  commissary,  and  that  was  furnished  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  helped  to  eat  some  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  difference  in  it  ? 

A.  There  was  some  that  was  not  very  good. 

Q.  In  what  respect  was  it  bad  ? 

A.  Well,  it  was  not  bad  only  in  this  way,  that  it  was  lean. 

Q.  It  has  been  described  here  to-day  by  one  witness  as  apparently 
small  hogs  cut  right  up— the  whole  hog  cut  right  up  and  put  in— did  it 
strike  you  so  ? 

A.  Well,  it  was  in  mighty  small  pieces. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  clear  pork  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  was  not  around  the  commissary  enough  to  notice. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  Indians  eat  it  much  ? 

A.  The  Indians  are  very  glad,  sometimes,  to  have  hold  of  it. 

Q.  Did  they  throw  any  of  it  away  ? 

A.  I  saw  some  thrown  outside. 

Q.  Was  there  some  pork  which,  in  your  judgment,  was  hardly  fit  to 
eat? 

A.  Eo.  I  never  saw  any  there  that  you  could  call  unfit  to  eat.  We 
used  it  in  the  mess-house,  and  ate  it  all  the  time. 

Q.  Was  there  any  of  that  pork  where  the  brine  had  leaked  out  of  the 
barrel  ? 

A.  There  was  some.  I  ate  some  of  that  kind  myself.  It  was  not 
spoiled. 

Q.  How  long  would  pork  keep  with  brine  out  of  the  barrel  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say.  It  would  not  keep  very  long.  We  used  some  in 
our  mess-house,  and  it  was  not  spoiled  when  we  used  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.   W.  DEAE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  You  are  a  trader  at  the  agency  here,  I  believe  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here,  Mr.  Dear  1 

A.  1  have  been  here  about  eighteen  months. 

Q.  Where  do  you  have  your  goods  brought  to  on  the  railroad  ? 

A.  Formerly  I  had  them  brought  to  Cheyenne,  but  now  I  have  them 
brought  to  Sidney,  that  is,  for  the  last  four  or  five  mouths. 

Q.  Why  do  you  have  them  brought  to  Sidney  ? 

A.  Because  the  rates  are  cheaper,  both  on  the  railroad  and  overland 
by  wag'on-trains. 

Q.  You  can  get  them  hauled  from  Sidney  here  cheaper  than  from 
Cheyenne? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  same  men  haul  for  you  from  Sidney  that  formerly  hauled 
for  you  from  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  Some  of  the  same  men. 


289 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  for  hauling  goods  from  Cheyenne  here  I 

A.  I  never  paid  less  than  $2.50  a  hundred  pounds,  and  in  case  of  an 
emergency  I  have  paid  as  high  as  $3. 

Q.  You  contracted  with  the  men  who  hauled  them  themselves — with 
the  wagoners  and  teamsters  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wish  to  explain  about  that.  These  parties  have  their 
individual  teams,  and  they  are  men  who  are  owing  us,  consequently  we 
can  afford  to  give  them  more  than  we  would  give  outsiders;  that  is,  they 
are  men  who  have  dealings  with  us. 

Q.  Then  you  pay  them  in  goods  here  ? 

A.  Frequently  we  pay  them  in  cash  ;  sometimes  we  pay  part  in  cash 
and  part  in  goods. 

Q.  Does  this  price  prevail  as  to  all  kinds  of  merchandise,  including 
the  heavy  as  well  as  the  light  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  is  all  weighed.  Generally  our  goods  are  heavy.  The 
larger  portion  of  them  are  groceries  or  dry  goods,  that  are  weighty. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  for  hauling  from  Sidney  ? 

A.  I  have  not  paid  over  $2  a  hundred,  and  I  have  paid  as  low  as  $1.75 
a  hundred. 

Q.  Have  you  any  trouble  in  obtaining  all  the  teams  you  require  at 
those  rates? 

A.  We  can  always  get  teams  at  those  rates,  because  they  are  higher 
than  the  general  rates. 

Q.  Your  goods  are  shipped  from  where  you  buy  them  to  Sidney,  as 
signed  to  your  commission-house  there,  or  your  agent,  and  then  he  em 
ploys  the  teams  to  bring  them  up  here? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  is  advised  of  certain  shipments,  and  then  we  would 
have  teams  there  by  certain  times  to  meet  those  goods. 

Q.  In  sending  teams  down  there,  do  you  furnish  them  with  loads  from 
here  ? 

A.  We  frequently  give  them  loads,  but  when  we  are  pushed,  we  pay 
them  for  a  load  down  in  order  to  get  them  to  go  down  and  bring  goods 
up.  1  have  paid  one  cent  per  pound  for  a  down  trip,  that  is,  on  ox- 
trains  and  trains  that  have  brought  out  a  load  to  the  military  post  and 
are  going  back  empty.  Of  course  it  was  an  inducement  to  take  them 
down. 

Q.  Mr.  Dear,  were  you  here  last  November  and  December  during 
the  fall  and  winter  of  1874  and  spring  of  1875  ? 

A.  I  think  I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  have  occasion  to  notice  the  character  of  the  supplies  is 
sued  to  the  Indians  last  fall,  say  in  November  and  December? 

A.  Let  me  study  awhile  to  see  where  I  was  then.  I  think  I  was  here. 
I  saw  some  of  the  sugar  and  some  of  the  coffee  they  were  issuing  dur 
ing  the  fall ;  I  don't  remember  the  bales,  but  it  was  during  the  cold 
weather. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  that  sugar  and  coffee  ? 

A.  The  sugar  was  a  fair  quality  of  brown  sugar,  and  the  coffee  was  a 
fair  quality  of  coffee.  I  drank  it  myself,  and  I  have  found  much  worse 
coffee  in  the  States. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  flour  that  was  issued  during  last  fall  and 
winter  ? 

A.  I  ate  some  of  the  bread  which  was  made  out  of  the  flour,  and  con 
sidered  it  a  very  fair  quality  of  flour.  It  is  a  better  quality  of  flour  than 
you  are  eating  over  there  now.  That  flour  you  have  there  now  I  bought 
at  Sidney,  and  I  used  some  of  the  flour  that  the  agent  had  here,  such  as 
was  issued  to  the  Indians.  I  borrowed  one  or  two  sacks. 
19  i  F 


290 

Q.  Well,  as  trader,  having  considerable  intercourse  among  the  Indians, 
did  you  hear  considerable  complaint  among  them  about  the  supplies  that 
were  being  furnished  them  ? 

A.  The  greatest  complaint  that  I  have  heard  is  that  they  doirt  have 
enough. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing  the  blankets  that  were  issued  last  fall  ? 

A.  I  didn't  see  them  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  Indians  wearing  blankets  branded  "  U.  S.  I 
D."  1 

A.  I  did  not  examine  them  closely. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  herds  of  beef-cattle  that  were  brought  in  here 
for  delivery  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  never  been  at  the  corral  where  the  cattle  are  delivered 
during  an  issue  since  I  have  been  here  these  18  months. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  the  cattle  when  passing  through  them  while  they  were 
being  herded  after  they  were  turned  over  to  the  agency,  and  I  considered 
them  an  average  lot  of  good  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing  them  late  last  fall  and  winter,  say  from 
November  to  February,  or  any  time  along  there  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  them  off  and  on  during  the  last  six  or  eight  months, 
and  have  always  considered  them  to  be  a  good  lot  of  cattle,  a  fair  lot 
of  cattle.  I  could  not  confine  myself  to  dates  as  to  the  time  of  seeing 
them.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  there  were  more  steers  than  cows  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing  yearlings  and  calves  among  them? 

A.  I  have  noticed  calves  among  them.  I  don't  know  about  the  year 
lings. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing  whether  the  steers  were  four-year-old 
Texas  steers,  or  younger  ? 

A.  I  am  not  a  sufficient  judge  of  cattle  to  say,  on  looking  at  them, 
but  I  should  judge  from  the  size  of  the  hides  I  got  without  the  heads  and 
legs,  from  what  they  brought  in  market,  that  they  were  full-grown 
cattle. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  as  to  what  was  the  general  average 
weight  of  their  hides  when  green  ? 

A.  No,  not  green  ;  but  the  average  weight  of  dry  has  been  from  23  to 
30  pounds — well  dried  and  fleshed. 

Q.  And  all  of  those,  you  say,  were  without  the  skin  of  the  head  and 
legs? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  is  the  difference  by  shrinkage  between  a  dry  and  a  green 
hide? 

A.  I  don't  know  the  exact  proportion,  but  it  is  more  than  one-half. 
Hide-men  can  tell  you  better  than  I  can. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  have  a  man  who  tends  to  that  business? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Dear,  you  understand  the  object  for  which  we  are  come 
out  here,  and  if  you  know  of  any  circumstance  yourself,  or  if  you  can 
give  us  any  suggestion  by  which  we  can  learn  from  others  any  informa 
tion  concerning  inefficiency  or  mismanagement  or  fraud  in  the  adminis 
tration  of  Indian  matters  here,  we  would  be  obliged  if  you  will  tell  us. 


291 

A.  As  far  as  my  knowledge  is  concerned,  I  know  of  no  frauds  or 
mismanagement  on  the  part  of  the  agent,  or  of  any  circumstances  that 
show  any  insufficiency  on  his  part.  I  know  he  has  had  a  great  many 
disaffected  elements  to  contend  with,  and  I  don't  think  any  other  person 
would  have  done  better  under  the  circumstances.  Judging  from  the 
course  he  has  pursued  under  the  most  trying  difficulties  that  we  have 
had  here,  I  should  think  he  is  a  man  of  firmness  and  decision  of  char 
acter,  more  so  than  his  appearance  would  indicate. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  Indians  selling  to  the  teamsters  and 
others  flour  that  was  issued  to  them  last  year  ? 

A.  I  do  not.  I  think  there  were  some  squaw  families  that  got  some 
flour  and  corn  from  others  who  had  a  surplus. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  a  lot  of  flour  being  shipped  from  here  to 
Sidney  1 

A.  I  do  not.  If  there  was  anything  of  that  kind  done,  of  course  it 
would  be  kept  very  private. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  as  to  whether  the  agency  has 
been  out  of  supplies  at  various  times,  and  the  Indians  suffering  for  the 
want  of  supplies,  and  whether,  in  such  a  case,  it  were  attributable  to  the 
failure  of  transportation  or  not? 

A.  They  were  short  several  times  during  the  winter,  but  it  was  during 
the  extremely  cold  weather,  and  then  for  weeks  it  was  impossible  for 
teams  to  travel.  I  know  I  could  not  even  send  my  own  teams  out,  and 
the  Indians  themselves  were  frozen  to  death  on  the  road.  Several  froze 
to  death  coming  up  from  Sidney  here  ;  that  is,  they  died  from  the  effects 
of  being  frozen. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  failure  or  neglect  on  the  part  of  the  con 
tractor  in  transporting  supplies  from  Cheyenne  here;  neglect  to  trans 
port  supplies  before  this  extremely  cold  weather  came  on  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  the  supplies  for  the  winter  should 
not  be  here  before  November  '? 

A.  I  do  not  know ;  because  the  contractor  has  certain  quantities  to 
deliver  at  certain  seasons. 

Q.  If  the  supplies  are  required  to  be  delivered  in  Cheyenne  by  the  1st 
of  August,  is  there  any  reason  why  they  should  not  be  here  by  the  1st 
of  November  ? 

A.  I  don't  see  any  reason  why  they  should  not. 

Q.  Mr.  Dear,  could  you  suggest  to  us  the  names  of  any  parties  here 
who  would  be  likely  to  have  a  knowledge  of  anything  wrong  that  has 
been  going  on  here — who  would  probably  know  something  about  it,  if 
there  is  anything  wrong  going  on  ? 

A.  I  could  suggest  to  you  the  names  of  probably  a  hundred  disaf 
fected  parties  who  could  tell  you  very  plausible  stories. 

Q.  Can  you  suggest  the  names  of  parties  who  would  probably  know 
something  of  their  own  knowledge? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  could  not. 

Q.  I  believe  there  are  two  traders  here  at  the  agency;  how  are  the 
traders  appointed  ? 

A.  By  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  upon  the  recommendation 
of  the  agent.  I  have  known  occasions  where  they  have  been  appointed 
by  outside  influence  without  the  recommendation  of  the  agent.  The 
trader  is  required  to  give  bonds  in  the  sum  of  $5,000,  with  two  or  more 
approved  securities,  to  conform  to  all  laws  regulating  trade  and  traffic 
with  the  Indians. 


292 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Were  you  appointed  by  Agent  Saville  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  "him  ? 

A.  I  have  known  him  nearly  two  years. 

Q.  Where  did  you  first  know  him  ? 

A.  I  first  met  him  here. 

Q.  Were  you  a  trader  at  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  there  ? 

A.  Sixteen  months. 

Q.  And  you  never  had  known  Dr.  Saville  until  he  came  in  as  agent  ? 

A.  Until  I  came  here. 

Q.  Have  you  a  partner  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

A.  Does  the  agent  directly  or  indirectly,  in  any  remote  degree,  have 
any  interest  whatever  in  the  profits  of  your  trade  ? 

A.  He  has  not. 

Q.  Have  you,  in  consideration  of  any  favor  which  he  has  shown  you, 
or  in  consideration  of  your  appointment,  paid  him  directly  or  indirectly, 
or  have  you  promised  or  implied  that  you  will  at  any  time  hereafter 
pay  him  any  consideration  ? 

A.  I  have  not.  I  have  simply  extended  to  him  the  courtesies  due  from 
man  to  man. 

Q.  Well,  since  you  open  that,  in  what  way  have  you  extended  him 
these  courtesies  ? 

A.  The  courtesy  due  from  one  gentleman  to  another. 

Q.  Treated  him  as  a  friend  and  neighbor  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  order  to  make  this  thing  perfectly  clear,  and  that  there  should 
be  no  possible  doubt  or  speculation  about  it,  I  will  ask,  Do  you  give 
Mr.  Saville  privileges  to  take  from  your  store  goods  which  he  is  not 
charged  with,  or  which  he  does  not  pay  for? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  treat  Dr.  Saville  as  I  would  any  other  man  5  that  is,  as 
a  business  man  should. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Mr.  Saville's  being  in  any  way  interested  in  any 
trade  going  on  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether,  in  your  judgment,  $1,500  a  year  is  ade 
quate  compensation  to  be  paid  for  an  agent  at  this  post,  taking  into 
consideration  the  expenses  which  he  has  to  bear  and  the  labor  which  he 
has  to  perform  ? 

A.  I  will  answer  it  by  saying  that  I  do  not  consider  it  an  adequate 
sum  to  support  a  man  under  the  circumstances. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  an  opportunity  of  witnessing  the  temper  and  feeling 
of  the  Indians  about  this  agency  during  the  last  two  years  ;  and,  if  so, 
have  you  observed  any  tendency  or  inclination  to  adapt  themselves  to 
the  policy  of  the  Government? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have.  For  instance,  three  years  ago  the  Indians 
would  scarcely  allow  any  one  to  cross  on  the  north  side  of  the  Platte. 
The  year  following  they  permitted  the  agency  to  move  from  the  North 
Platte  to  this  point.  At  the  time  the  agency  was  moved  here,  they 
would  not  permit  white  men  to  cross  on  the  north  side  of  White  River, 
which  is  about  200  yards  distant  from  here.  Then  they  prohibited 


293 

the  agent  from  allowing  his  stock  to  graze  on  the  north  side  of  the 
river ;  and  to-day  one  or  two  men  can  go  to  the  Black  Hills  without  any 
molestation  whatever.  I  mention  the  Black  Hills  particularly,  but  they 
can  roam  all  over  the  country  without  molestation. 

Q.  Do  you  find  more  or  less  disposition  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  to 
be  more  pacific  and  less  troublesome  than  they  were  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  decidedly.  I  was  at  the  old  agency  three  years  ago,  and 
at  that  time  I  was  afraid  to  ride  a  mile  from  the  store.  Those  Indians 
had  just  been  gathered  in  during  that  year.  The  Bed  Cloud  agency  is 
only  two  or  three  years  old.  These  Northern  Indians  have  only  been 
gathered  in  within  the  last  three  years. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Were  those  Indians  among  whom  you  were  afraid  to  ride  the  same 
ones  that  are  now  around  this  ageuecy  I 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  fact  of  these  Indians  having  asked  for  cows  and 
brood  mares  and  agricultural  implements  shows  of  itself  a  tendency  to 
advancement. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  discovered  any  material  change  in  their  temper  and  dis 
position  so  far  as  you  have  had  intercourse  with  them  ? 

•A.  Yes,  sir ;  a  decided  change.  Last  year  they  were  100  per  cent, 
more  peaceable  than  they  were  the  year  before,  and  to  day  they  are 
100  per  cent,  more  than  last  year.  I  think  the  residents  at  the  agency 
can  testify  to  that.  There  are  a  great  many  fractious  individuals  among 
the  Indians,  just  as  there  are  among  the  whites.  While  there  are  a  great 
many  disaffected  parties,  the  larger  portion  of  them  seem  inclined  to 
assume  the  mode  of  living  of  the  whites. 

Q.  Do  you  observe  anything  in  the  change  of  dress  on  their  part  that 
would  indicate  any  approach  toward  civilization  ? 

A.  There  are  quite  a  number  about  the  agency  to-day  who  take  quite 
a  pride  in  dressing  in  white  men's  clothing,  lied  Dog,  for  one,  never 
feels  so  proud  as  when  he  has  got  on  a  white  man's  suit.  I  fitted  him 
out  several  times. 

Q.  How  would  that  have  been  regarded  a  few  years  ago  ? 

A.  It  would  have  been  regarded  by  the  Indians  as  an  innovation 
upon  their  ideas. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  at  present  of  this  dressing  in  white  men's  cloth 
ing  upon  the  standing  of  such  Indians  among  the  rest  of  the  tribe  ? 

A.  The  old  heads  think  nothing  about  it ;  they  take  a  consistent 
view  of  the  matter,  while  the  younger  men,  who  are  yet  untamed,  take 
a  different  view. 

Q.  Does  it  seriously  affect  the  influence  of  those  who  dress  in  white 
men's  clothes  ? 

A.  It  does  to  a  certain  extent  among  those  others. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  speak  of  the  salary  of  the  agent  as  being  very  inadequate,  and 
there  seems  to  be  a  popular  impression  pervading  the  whole  country 
that  these  agencies  are  sought,  not  looking  to  the  nominal  salary,  but 
to  some  covert  means  by  which  their  emoluments  are  enhanced  beyond 
the  sum  of  their  salary.  Now,  are  you  able  to  state,  from  your  observa 
tion  of  the  conduct  and  means  and  resources  of  this  agent,  whether, 
in  any  way,  he  has  been  able  to  increase  his  visible  means  of  support 
since  he  has  been  agent  at  this  place  ? 


294 

A.  Xo,  sir;  I  don't  know,  and  I  really  could  not  state  bis  means  or 
liis  resources. 

Q.  Have  yon  seen  any  indications  of  an  increase  of  means  or  resources 
on  his  part  since  he  has  been  here  ? 

A.  I  have  not,  sir.  He  seems  to  occupy  the  same  position  financially, 
as  far  as  I  can  see,  to-day,  that  he  did  two  years  ago. 


TALK  WITH  SITTING  BULL. 

In  the  evening  (August  9)  Sitting  Bull  and  Old-Man-Afraid-of-His- 
Horse  called  on  the  Commissioners,  when  an  informal  talk  was  held. 

SITTING-  BULL.  Tongue  came  this  morning  and  informed  us  that  yon 
wanted  us  to  come  and  talk ;  and  we  have  come  to  see  what  time  you 
want  us  to  be  here  in  the  morning.  If  you  have  any  questions  you  want 
to  ask  us  we  are  willing  to  talk  this  evening. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  your  people  suffer  last  winter  for  something 
to  eat  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  Xo,  sir ;  we  had  plenty. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Was  the  coffee  and  sugar  you  had  last  winter  good  ; 
not  only  was  it  good,  but  did  you  have  enough  of  it? 

SITTING  BULL.  Yes,  sir ;  the  coffee  was  good ;  in  all  the  coffee  that 
was  sent  you  could  always  find  a  few  grains  that  were  bad,  but  take  it 
all  around  it  was  good. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  How  was  the  tobacco  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  There  was  some  kind  of  tobacco  that  was  good  ;  that 
is  the  short  plugs;  the  other  kinds  were  not  so  good  to  mix  up  with 
the  Killikiunic  ;  it  does  not  smoke  so  well  as  the  small  plug. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  What  kind  of  beeves  did  you  get  last  winter;  were 
they  good  ones '? 

SITTING  BULL.  When  we  were  over  at  the  other  agency  on  the 
Platte,  I  often  complained  of  the  small  yearlings  they  gave  us.  They 
listened  to  us  here  and  gave  us  larger  beeves  than  they  gave  us  on  the 
Platte ;  they  were  average  beeves.  Our  father  here  was  not  our  agent 
then.  Dr.  Daniels  was  the  agent  when  they  gave  us  the  beeves  on  the 
Platte,  but  here  they  gave  us  good  beeves. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Were  the  beeves  you  got  last  winter  all  large  and 
good  ones  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  not  the  only  one  that  knows  that  the 
beeves  they  gave  us  last  winter  were  all  large  ones. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  you  get  some  pork  last  winter  that  was  bad  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  We  got  some  pork  last  winter  that  was  good,  but  it 
did  not  render  out  into  grease ;  that  was  the  only  fault  the  Indians 
found.  It  would  not  melt  well.  The  bacon  we  are  getting  now,  we  can 
render  into  grease,  and  we  like  that. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Do  the  Indians  like  the  lean  thin  pork  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  We  want  to  have  it  so  that  we  can  render  it  to  make 
bread. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  you  have  some  very  bad  flour  last  winter ;  so 
bad  that  you  could  not  make  bread  out  of  it  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  There  was  some  flour  that  was  pretty  bad  ;  some  of 
it  was  not  eatable ;  some  of  it  was  dark — darker  than  the  other,  but 


295 

we  all  eat  it  together,  and  they  eat  it  here  at  the  agency,  and  we  all  lived 
on  it.  We  got  as  good  as  they  did  at  the  agency. 

THE  CHAIRMAN.  Do  you  know  of  any  of  your  people  having  any  flour 
that  they  could  not  eat  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  There  were  some  few  sacks  that  was  not  good ;  some 
that  we  could  not  eat ;  at  least  some  of  the  Indians  could  not  eat  it. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  the  blankets  that  were  issued  have  large  holes 
in  them  where  the  letters  were  put  upon  them  ? 

SITTING  BULLL.  The  blankets  where  they  were  marked  would  wear 
out  very  quickly.  If  they  would  not  put  that  mark  upon  the  blanket  it 
would  last  much  longer,  [Sitting  Bull  here  exhibited  his  blanket;  and 
where  it  had  been  marked  the  nap  had  worn  off.]  This  one  is  better  than 
some  others.  The  stamp  affected  the  red  and  blue  blankets  more  than 
the  others.  The  white  blankets  are  not  branded  that  way;  only  the 
black  ones.  As  to  whether  all  the  blankets  issued  last  year  were  marked 
that  way  I  never  paid  much  attention.  Some  wear  out  much  quicker 
than  the  others. 

OLD-MAN- AFRAiD-OF-ins-HoRSE.  Some  of  the  blankets  are  good  but 
where  they  mark  them.  If  they  would  not  mark  them  that  way  they 
would  wear  much  better. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Have  you  any  distinct  recollection  of  the  blankets 
issued  last  year?  Have  you  any  recollection  of  the  number  that  were 
issued  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  I  counted  them,  but  I  have  forgotten  how  many. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Does  your  recollection  enable  you  to  state  whether 
there  was  the  full  supply  you  had  a  right  to  expect? 

SITTING  BULL.  There  were  less  than  there  were  the  issue  before. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  (To  the  agent.)  You  requested  him  to  count  the  bales  ? 

Dr.  SAVILLE.  The  Indians  themselves  requested  him  among  them 
selves  to  count  them. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Was  there  any  dissatisfaction  expressed  by  those 
who  appointed  you  to  make  the  count  at  the  distribution  of  blankets  at 
the  time? 

OLD-MAN- AFRAID-OF-HIS  HORSE.  They  all  spoke  about  it.  I  recol 
lect  it  all,  but  I  would  like  the  other  Indians  to  be  here  before  I  say  any 
thing  about  it. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  When  the  annuity  goods  were  issued  last  year  were 
there  some  Northern  Indians  camped  on  the  north  side  of  White  River, 
near  the  agency  ? 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID-OF-IIIS-HORSE.  We  all  know  here  that  those  In 
dians  were  all  here — the  Minneconjoux  from  the  North.  The  men  here 
all  know  that  those  Indians  were  here  ;  but  I  don't  like  to  say  anything 
about  it  until  the  other  Indians  come  in.  There  were  more  Indians  here 
last  fall  than  at  any  other  time,  and  the  goods  were  not  sufficient  to  sup 
ply  them  all.  A  great  many  did  not  get  any,  and  they  did  not  expect 
any.  I  want  to  tell  you  about  this  to-niorrqw. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  want  you  to  talk  together,  and  know  what  you 
will  say  when  you  come.  We  want  to  know  if  anybody  has  cheated  you ; 
we  want  to  know  if  you  get  all  that  is  sent  you.  The  Government  has 
paid  for  all  these  things,  and  we  want  to  know  if  you  have  been  wronged  : 
and  if  you  have  we  want  to  go  back  and  tell  the  Great  Father  all  about 
it.  We  not  only  want  to  know  if  the  agent  has  cheated  you,  but  we 
want  to  find  out  if  some  rascal  has  been  sending  the  agent  bad  things 
and  cheating  you  in  that  way. 


296 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  10,  1875. 

COUNCIL  WITH  THE  OGALLALA  SIOUX. 

The  commisioners  met  the  Ogallala  Sioux  in  a  general  council  which 
had  been  called  to  meet  in  the  store-house,  within  the  agency  grounds. 
Seventy  or  eighty  chiefs,  headmen,  and  warriors  of  the  Sioux  Nation 
were  present.  The  commissioners — Hon.  Thomas  0.  Fletcher,  chairman ; 
Hon.  B.  W.  Harris,  Hon.  Charles  J.  Faulkner,  and  Prof.  George  W. 
Atherton — occupied  seats  at  one  end  of  the  building,  and, sitting  in  order, 
beginning  on  their  right,  were  Eed  Cloud,  Little  Wound,  Conquering 
Bear,  Eed  Leaf.  Tall  Lance,  High  Wolf,  Old-Mau-Afraid-of-his-Horse, 
Sword,  and  Sitting  Bull,  who  came  in  after  the  proceedings  had  com 
menced.  All  these  sat  on  benches,  while  the  other  chiefs  and  headmen 
sat  mostly  on  the  floor  around  the  room.  The  chiefs  of  the  Arapahoes 
and  Cheyeunes,  not  understanding  that  the  invitation  had  been  ex 
tended  to  them,  did  not  attend,  and  afterward  they  were  met  in  a  sep 
arate  council.  Agent  Saville  and  most  of  the  employes  and  other 
white  men  around  the  agency  were  also  present.  Leon  F.  Pallarday, 
Jules  Ecoffee,  William  Kowland,  and  Antoine  Janis  were  requested  by 
the  commissioners  to  act  as  interpreters.  Red  Cloud  expressed  a  prefer 
ence  for  Louis  Eeshaw,  who  was  absent.  The  council  was  opened  by 
the  chairman  of  the  commission  rising  and  addressing  the  Sioux  as  fol 
lows,  Mr.  Pallarday  acting  as  interpreter: 

GOVERNOR   FLETCHER'S  SPEECH. 

We  come  here  to  see  you  and  to  talk  with  you,  and  we  were  selected 
for  that  purpose  by  the  Great  Father  in  Washington,  not  with  the  in 
tention  of  making  any  treaties  or  bargains  with  you,  or  of  getting  you 
to  agree  to  anything  with  us,  but  simply  to  talk  with  you.  There  are 
four  of  us  here.  Another,  (Senator  Howe,)  a  great  white  man,  Avas  to 
have  been  with  us,  but  has  not  joined  us  yet;  why  we  do  not  know. 
We  were  sent  here  to  talk  with  you  and  learn  from  you  if  any  person 
has  ill-used  you  in  any  manner.  If  the  agent  or  any  of  the  contractors 
who  have  been  employed  by  our  Government  to  furnish  you  goods  and 
supplies  have  cheated  you,  we  want  to  find  that  out.  And  if  we  find 
that  anybody  has  cheated  you,  given  you  bad  rations,  or  not  given  you 
enough,  or  has  done  any  wrong,  we  will  have  him  punished  for  it  by  out 
law.  We  want  you  to  talk  with  us  as  good  friends,  and  tell  us  all  about 
how  you  have  been  getting  on  and  how  you  have  been  treated.  The 
white  man  is  very  smart,  you  know  ,•  he  will  not  only  cheat  Indians,  but 
he  will  cheat  white  men  too,  and  we  want  you  to  tell  us  all  about  what 
has  been  done  here.  But  it  is  only  a  few  bad  white  men  that  would  wrong 
you ;  the  great  body  of  the  white  men  want  you  treated  right,  and  we 
are  here  to  represent  them.  You  are  men  and  so  are  we,  and  we  want 
you  to  talk  with  us  not  only  in  council,  but  as  one  man  talks  to  another 
about  his  affairs.  The  Great  Father  and  the  white  men  want  you  to  do 
well,  want  you  to  be  happy,  want  you  to  be  rich  some  time  or  other. 
You  must  learn  the  ways  of  the  white  man.  You  must  learn  to  raise 
cattle  and  sheep,  and  then  you  will  have  great  herds  on  the  prairies 
that  will  be  more  cattle  and  sheep  than  there  are  grasshoppers  on  the 
plains.  When  the  Indian  shall  have  his  great  herds  of  cattle  and  sheep, 
then  he  will  sell  them  to  the  white  man  to  feed  the  white  man  as  the 
white  man  sends  supplies  to  feed  the  Indian  now.  The  white  men  are 


297 

so  many,  they  have  not  got  great  prairies  like  these  to  graze  their  cattle 
on;  but  they  have  to  dig  the  ground  to  grow  food  for  them,  while  here 
the  cattle  live  on  the  open  prairie.  After  a  while,  when  the  Indian  has 
more  herds  of  cattle,  then  he  will  send  beef  to  the  white  man  ; 
when  he  has  great  herds  of  sheep,  then  he  will  make  his  own  blankets, 
and  he  will  send  his  sheep  and  his  wool  to  sell  to  the  white  man,  and  he 
•will  get  in  pay  sugar,  coffee,  tobacco,  and  everything  else  he  wants. 
Now,  we  want  to  talk  with  all  of  you,  and  we  want  you  to  tell  us  freely 
all  you  know  about  the  management  of  affairs  out  here,  without  fear  of 
anybody.  If  we  can  do  you  any  good,  we  want  to  do  it.  That  is  what 
we  came  for,  and  that  is  all  I  have  to  say. 

RED  CLOUD'S  SPEECH. 

Red  Cloud  then  replied  as  follows,  Pallarday  and  Jan  is  acting  as  in- 
preters  : 

My  friends,  you  men  that  are  sitting  down  here,  do  you  think  that 
you  will  succeed  in  understanding  what  I  tell  you  ?  May  the  Great 
Father  above  look  upon  us  all !  And  what  we  are  going  to  say,  I  hope 
you  will  look  upon  it  well.  You  people  that  are  here  to-day  have  given 
me  this  land  that  I  am  on  at  present.  And  you  people  who  belong 
down  yonder  toward  the  sea,  that  country  where  you  have  been  born 
and  raised,  belongs  to  you  ;  that  is  your  country.  I  am  one  of  the  peo 
ple  who  have  been  gathered  here  from  the  four  winds  of  heaven.  Bnt 
those  old  people  you  see  around  you  here,  the  most  of  them,  have  been 
raised  in  the  country  around  Fort  Laramie  and  on  the  river  Platte.  I 
have  been  working  strong  in  years  past  against  them;  1  mean  the 
whites.  The  buffalo  south  and  the  buffalo  north,  on  both  sides  of  us, 
that  is  the  game  that  has  brought  our  nation  where  it  is  now.  All  those 
old  people  that  were  raised  on  the  Platte  called  commissioners  to  come 
around  and  see  us.  They  used  to  bring  persons  with  them,  and  give  us 
guns  and  clothing.  I  thought  if  we  moved  our  agency  up  here  and 
would  come  into  this  country  we  would  succeed  in  getting  more  goods 
than  we  had  been  in  the  habit  of  getting  there ;  but  instead  of  that  I 
succeeded  backward,  and  all  the  time  I  got  less  of  everything.  Last  fall, 
when  the  annuity-goods  came  here,  there  were  only  thirty-seven  bales  of 
blankets  for  I  all  these  people.  There  were  upward  of  three  hundred  of 
our  people  who  did  not  get  any  ;  and  everything  else  was  short  in  propor 
tion  to  the  blankets.  It  is  two  years  since  we  have  come  here,  and  we 
have  not  got  enough.  We  have  had  to  divide  with  the  Indians  from  the 
north,  and  we  have  to  divide  with  them  still,  and  that  makes  us  short, 
so  that  the  goods  we  get  are  not  enough  for  ourselves  and 
them.  Before  six  months  expire  we  are  out  of  almost  everything. 
When  I  went  to  see  the  Great  Father  in  Washington  this  summer,  he 
told  me  that  twelve  mouths'  rations  and  twelve  months7  annuity  goods 
were  sent  to  us.  I  believe  this  myself,  but  I  don't  believe  whoever  the 
Great  Father  has  to  buy  these  goods  and  provisions  to  forward  to  us 
here  sends  them  out.  I  think  there  is  something  wrong  about  that. 
When  the  goods  from  the  East  come  up  to  Cheyenne,  there  a  portion  of 
them  is  lost,  and  that  I  think  I  know  myself.  I  have  no  jealousy  against 
any  one,  nor  do  I  wish  to  backbite  anybody ;  but  what  I  see  with  my 
own  eyes  I  wish  to  tell.  The  commissary  man  there  [pointing  to  one  of 
the  employes]  must  not  understand  the  weights.  When  he  gives  rations 
to  the  old  women  and  children  he  gives  them  out  by  the  shovel.  That 
does  not  please  me.  My  father,  sitting  there,  [pointing  to  the  agent,] 
the  young  men  you  have  employed  at  the  herds  have  been  drunk  and 


298 

drinking  for  some  time,  and  I  understand  some  of  the  cattle  have  been 
stolen  and  traded  off.  As  a  Sioux  Indian,  I  was  brought  up  with  brains 
and  a  heart,  and  that  is  the  way  we  are  all  brought  up.  Those  three  men 
sitting  beside  the  agent  [pointing  to  Dr.  Snow,  physician  at  the  agency ; 
Mr.  Gibbous,  clerk ;  and  Mr.  J.  H.  BoslerJ  are  good  men.  I  like  those 
men;  they  have  feelings  and  a  heart;  they  are  employed  here,  and  they 
do  what  is  right.  The  doctor  is  a  man  who  helps  us  along  a  good  deal ; 
he  doctors  the  women  and  children  when  they  are  sick,  and  does  very 
well  by  them.  The  other  man  is  the  clerk  here,  and  we  have  found  noth 
ing  out  of  the  way  with  him,  and  everything  has  gone  on  all  right.  That 
other  man  [Mr.  Bosler]  is  the  man  who  has  brought  cattle  here,  and  he 
has  brought  them  here  in  time.  We  have  nothing  to  say  against  him. 
Last  winter  Mr.  Bosler  came  very  near  freezing  in  bringing  cattle  over. 
My  father,  [pointing  to  Agent  Saville,]  we  don't  blame  you  about  our 
provisions  and  goods,  because  you  don't  buy  them.  They  are  bought  by 
other  parties  East,  and  sent  to  you,  but  you  ought  to  see  that  they  do 
well  by  us. 

There  is  another  thing  I  never  did  like,  and  I  spoke  about  it  when  I 
was  down  East,  and  that  is  about  the  soldiers  being  in  this  country, 
camped  above  us  on  this  creek.  I  told  my  father  in  Washington  that  we 
didn't  want  any  soldiers  here ;  that  we  didn't  need  them.  My  father  here, 
[the  agent,]  I  tell  you  to-day  why  the  Indians  spoke  about  you.  Last 
year  you  wanted  to  put  up  a  flag  here,  and  it  did  riot  please  the  nation, 
and  you  came  very  near  having  good  young  men  killed  on  both  sides — 
whites  and  Indians  5  and  since  that  the  Indians  did  riot  like  that  plan 
at  all,  and  they  have  talked  against  you,  and  that  is  the  only  thing  that 
the  Indians  did  not  like  in  you.  Some  years  ago  we  had  officers  for 
agents  in  this  country  beyond  here,  on  the  Mssouri  River,  and  now  that 
is  a  thing  that  we  don't  want.  I  tell  you  now,  and  I  have  said  it  before, 
that  we  don't  want  any  Army  officer  as  an  Indian  agent.  There  are  plenty 
of  men  in  the  country  that  you  can  get  for  agents  besides  military  men. 
We  want  a  man  close  to  our  Great  Father's  place— a  good  man,  not  an 
officer.  We  want  some  person  who  has  the  confidence  of  the  Great 
Father  in  Washington.  We  don't  want  as  an  agent  any  man  who  wants 
to  come  out  here  to  get  rich.  We  don't  want  a  poor  man  as  an  agent. 
That  man  that  has  been  picking  up  bones  in  this  country, '[Professor 
Marsh,]  what  is  the  reason  he  did  not  come  here  with  you  ? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Professor  Marsh  told  all  these  things  to  the  Great 
Father  and  brought  him  the  samples  of  the  things  you  gave  him,  and 
showed  them  to  him,  and  the  Great  Father  sent  us  here  to  see  about 
them. 

BED  CLOUD.  [To  the  agent,]  My  father,  lately  I  have  got  jealous  here. 
The  reason  why  I  got  jealous  was  I  went  down  to  Spotted  Tail  agency, 
and  down  there  they  showed  me  a  great  deal  of  lumber,  and  the  half- 
breeds  and  other  people  who  are  living  with  the  Indians  are  putting  up 
buildings,  and  so  I  got  jealous.  And  the  Indians  themselves  there  have 
very  nice  houses  too. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Do  your  people  want  houses  here  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes ;  some  of  the  Indians  would  like  to  have  houses, 
but  we  can't  get  lumber.  I  am  going  to  ask  you  a  question,  now  that 
you  are  all  here  together.  I  went  to  see  my  Great  Father  and  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  this  summer.  There  were  a  great  many  per 
sons  present,  and  perhaps  some  of  you  were  there  ;  but  I  cannot  recol 
lect.  I  don't  remember  seeing  any  of  you  there.  There  are  a  good 
many  of  us  here  who  were  there.  We  had  Mr.  Hinman  as  our  inter 
preter.  What  I  have  been  telling  you  to-day  they  questioned  me  upon 


299 

the  same  subject  in  Washington,  and  I  told  my  Great  Father  then  what 
I  have  told  you  here  to  day.  And  he  asked  me  if  I  had  come  with  the 
intention  of  getting  another  agent.  I  kept  still  and  did  not  say  a  word, 
and  he  repeated  the  question  to  me,  and  then  I  spoke  to  him  and  I  told 
him  this :  "  My  Great  Father,  you  are  sitting  here  with  your  peo 
ple;  and  I  am  here  with  my  people.  You  have  told  me  before  when 
I  came  here  that  if  my  agent  did  not  do  right,  and  I  did  not  like  him, 
and  the  nation  did  not  like  him,  you  had  plenty  more,  and  you  wrould 
give  me  another.  You  told  me  these  words  when  I  was  in  Washington 
before  this.  The  reason  why  I  have  come  here  is  that  the  agent  we  have 
got,  it  seems,  and  myself  dont  succeed  in  getting  the  necessaries  for  my 
people,  and  that  is  wThy  I  have  come  here  to  tell  you,  so  that  you  can 
decide  what  to  do  about  it."  Then  he  told  me,  u  I  will  give  you  a  father 
who  will  be  ahead  of  all  the  fathers  you  have  ever  had."  When  he  said 
that  we  shook  hands  together,  and  all  was  right.  It  was  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs  I  had  this  conversation  with.  I  told  him,  "  My 
father,  I  don't  want  a  soldier  as  agent,  and  I  don't  want  a  preacher  as 
agent;  but  I  want  an  old  man  about  your  age  or  a  little  younger,  who 
has  got  a  little  gray  hair  on  his  head.  That  is  the  kind  of  man 
I  want."  He  said,  "All  right,  lied  Cloud  ;  go  home,  and  in  about  thirty 
days  there  wrill  be  an  agent  at  your  place."  Now,  the  question  I  want- 
to  ask,  is,  How  is  it  ?  I  am  not  a  child.  I  am  looking  for  that  agent  to 
come,  and  I  hope  my  Great  Father  is  not  going  to  deceive  me.  That 
is  all  I  have  to  say  on  that  subject.  That  is  what  the  next  to  my  Great 
Father  [the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs]  told  me  when  I  was  in 
Washington.  I  am  going  to  talk  to  you  now  about  our  provisions. 
Over  on  the  Platte,  w^hen  Dr.  Daniels  was  agent,  we  used  to  receive  our 
rations  every  seven,  eight,  and  nine  days.  Here  we  would  like  to  get 
them  every  ten  days.  I  think  if  they  were  issued  every  nine  or  ten  days 
they  would  last  longer  than  if  we  drew  them  every  seven  days  ;  I  think 
we  would  save  provisions  by  drawing  them  every  ten  days,  instead  of 
every  seven  days,  which  is  the  rule  at  present.  We  do  not  run  around 
or  go  off  anywhere.  There  are  a  great  many  of  us  here — the  Ogallalas, 
the  Wahashaws,  the  Cheyennes,  and  the  Arapahoes — a  great  many  In 
dians  here,  and  I  wish,  after  you  get  through,  you  would  get  in  a  wagon 
and  go  and  see  the  number  of  Indians  there  is  around  here. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  w7ill  do  that. 

KED  CLOUD.  You  will  see  it  is  something  like  the  wiiites  in  the 
States.  We  have  settlements  like  scattered  towns  ;  you  have  a  good 
many  women  and  children  in  those  towns,  and  it  is  the  same  here  with 
our  bands  and  tribes.  We  are  born  all  the  same — the  Indians  and  the 
W7hites — born  with  five  fingers  on  each  hand  ;  born  with  face  and  eyes 
and  ears,  and  a  mouth  to  speak.  There  is  no  difference  in  us  at  all ;  the 
women  are  made  alike,  and  the  men  are  all  made  alike;  they  are  all  about 
the  same.  Now  as  to  those  Black  Hills.  Our  great  Father  has  got  a 
great  many  soldiers,  and  I  never  knew  him  when  he  wanted  to  stop 
anything  with  his  soldiers  but  he  succeeded  in  it.  The  reason  I  tell 
you  that  is,  that  the  people  from  the  States  who  have  gone  to  the  Black 
Hills  are  stealing  gold,  digging  it  out  and  taking  it  away,  and  I  don't 
see  why  the  Great  Father  don't  bring  them  back. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  The  Great  Father  has  ordered  those  people  to  be 
away  from  there  in  five  days  from  now,  and  if  they  do  not  go  he  will 
bring  them  out  with  soldiers. 

Sitting  Bull  then  arose,  and,  addressing  himself  to  Cld-Man-Afraid-of- 
his-Horse,  said  to  him :  u  If  there  is  anything  that  Red  Cloud  has  said 


300 

that  you  don't  like  get  up  and  speak.  These  gentlemen  have  not  come 
here  for  nothing."  Old-Man- Afraid -of-his-Horse  made  no  reply. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  If  there  are  any  others  who  would  like  to  speak  to 
us  we  will  be  glad  to  hear  them,  and  to  have  them  tell  us  all  they  want 
and  all  they  think  about.  The  white  man  regards  Red  Cloud  as  a 
great  Sioux,  a  great  warrior,  a  wise  man,  and  the  white  man  listens  to 
what  Red  Cloud  says,  unless  somebody  else  has  something  more  to  say. 
If  any  have  we  would  like  to  hear  from  them  too. 

Old-Man-Afraid  of  his-Horse  was  invited  to  speak,  but  he  declined  ; 
and  Red  Dog,  about  whom  inquiry  was  made,  was  absent  in  the  Black 
Hills. 

SPEECH   OF   LITTLE   WOUND. 

As  Old-Man-Afraid-of-his-Horses  won't  speak  for  himself  I  will  say 
a  few  words  for  him.  I  am  glad  you  have  come  here  and  come  with  the 
intention  of  seeing  and  hearing  what  is  going  on.  I  understand  you 
have  come  here  to  see  about  our  annuity-goods  and  provisions — bacon, 
flour,  coffee,  and  beef — and  I  am  glad  that  you  have  done  it.  Back  at 
our  old  agency  on  the  North  Platte  we  built  some  adobe  houses.  We 
did  not  build  them  for  fun  or  to  last  for  only  a  short  time.  There  is  where 
we  were  brought  up.  When  we  were  over  there  on  the  Platte  we  had 
Dr.  Daniels  for  our  father,  and  I  told  him  often  about  our  ideas  and 
views  with  reference  to  our  agency.  From  there  we  came  here  and  put 
a  stick  down  to  mark  the  land  where  to  build  the  agency,  and  we  were 
promised  thirty  years'  provisions  and  annuities.  We  all  did  not  expect 
to  live  to  see  those  thirty  years,  but  our  children  would,  and  that  is  why 
we  were  posted  here ;  that  is  what  was  told  us  when  we  left  there  to 
come  here.  A  little  before  we  started  from  there  we  had  councils. 
There  were  men  who  came  from  the  Great  Father  and  had  big  talks  with 
us,  and  put  their  hands  up  to  the  Great  Spirit  above  with  us,  and  told 
us  if  we  would  come  here  they  would  build  us  big  houses  and  fill  them 
with  provisions,  provided  we  would  move  our  agency  here  ;  but  we  have 
not  seen  that  done  yet.  I  want  to  say  my  Great  Father  eats  good  pro 
visions,  and  I  have  asked  him  to  send  us  such  things  as  rice  and  dried 
apples  and  sugar  and  coffee,  tea,  and  hominy — such  things  as  you  eat 
down  yonder;  but  I  don't  see  any  of  them  sent  to  us,  and  I  don't  see 
why  we  can't  live  as  well  here  as  you  do  down  there,  when  such  things 
were  promised  to  us.  It  seems  that  my  Great  Father  decides  to  send 
us  such  stuff  as  we  have  been  eating,  and  a  great  many  small  cattle — 
poor,  small,  and  lean.  We  have  never  asked  for  any  beans,  and  have 
never  asked  for  any  American  corn.  We  never  asked  for  any  pork — the 
pork  is  right  yellow,  and  we  never  asked  for  that  kind  of  pork.  My 
father  [the  agentj  has  told  me  that  by  going  around  and  counting  all 
the  Indians  in  every  lodge  he  could  tell  exactly  how  much  rations  to 
give  and  how  much  annuity  goods  they  would  have  to  receive,  but  it  has 
not  been  done  yet — we  have  not  received  enough  for  the  number  of  In 
dians  that  have  been  counted.  Red  Cloud  told  you  that  when  you  got 
through  your  business  here  you  should  go  out  and  see  how  many  Indi 
ans  were  here  in  our  country  ;  but  after  you  see  them  you  must  not  think 
that  that  is  all  of  the  Indians,  because  there  are  a  good  many  who  are 
not  here  now ;  about  one-half  of  them  have  gone  out  hunting.  These 
young  men  you  see  here,  nearly  all  of  them,  are  married  men  and  have 
families,  and  they  are  almost  in  distress  for  want  of  lodgings.  They 
have  to  double  up,  two  or  three  families  in  one  tent,  in  order  to  get 
shelter.  We  would  like  to  have  enough  tents  so  that  each  family  could 
have  a  tent.  The  blankets  we  get  are  not  good.  I  was  out  south  last  winter 


301 

after  buffalo,  and  I  traded  for  the  blanket  I  have  on  me  now.  Most  01 
those  we  got  last  winter  have  big  holes  right  in  the  middle  of  them  ; 
they  are  burned  where  they  are  branded.  They  told  us  when  we  moved 
here  we  were  to  get  good  clothes,  such  clothes  as  you  wear — white 
shirts,  frock-coats,  and  pants — but  we  don't  get  them.  Now,  my  friends, 
I  am  going  to  ask  you  something.  You  all  appear  to  be  gentlemen  and 
nice  men,  and  I  am  very  glad  to  see  you.  I  want  to  ask  you  this  ques 
tion  in  regard  to  these  poor  people  of  ours  who  are  trading  the  beef- 
hides  that  we  get.  We  don't  get  all  they  are  worth  for  them  ;  two  and 
three  dollars  is  all  we  get,  and  I  would  like  you  to  tell  us  why  we  don't 
get  more. 

Another  thing — in  regard  to  our  stopping  of  hunting  in  the  south. 
When  we  sold  our  right  to  hunt  we  did  not  expect  to  sell  the  ground; 
at  least  that  was  not  told  us.  We  sold  the  right  to  hunt  for  $25,000r 
but  not  the  ground.  The  reason  why  we  accepted  it  was  on  account 
of  white  people  going  in  there  and  killing  the  buffaloes  and  throw 
ing  all  the  meat  away  ;  that  is  why  we  were  in  such  a  hurry,  in  ac 
cepting  the  offer.  We  told  the  commissioners  when  we  took  this  offer 
of  $25,000  to  buy  us  some  wagons  and  horses  and  cows.  I  want  to 
know  now  if  you  can  inform  us  what  they  cost.  The  wagons  have  not 
come ;  the  horses  and  cows  have.  When  we  accepted  it  we  were  told 
they  would  bring  us  the  amount  of  $8,000  in  cattle,  wagons,  and  horses 
for  the  Cut  Off  band  (my  band,)  and  Eed  Cloud  $7,000  worth  for  his 
baud.  The  stock  has  come,  but  the  wagons  have  not  arrived  yet.  I 
want  to  know  if  we  have  got  the  full  amount  of  the  $7,000  and  the 
$8,000.  We  have  received  sixty-four  horses  and  sixty  cows.  We  have 
looked  at  the  cattle,  and  they  are  not  more  than  three  or  four  years  old, 
and  from  the  size  of  the  cattle  I  should  not  think  they  would  cost  very 
much.  The  horses  were  the  same — small — and  could  not  have  cost 
very  much.  Some  of  them  are  very  wild  and  could  not  be  broken.  One 
of  the  horses  we  cannot  go  near  at  all  5  he  will  rush  at  us  and  bite  us. 
There  are  fifteen  young  men  of  my  people  who  have  gone  with  the  com 
missioners  to  try  to  get  the  Northern  Indians  to  come  here  to  hold  the 
council  about  the  cession  of  the  Black  Hills.  They  went  there  with 
good  intentions.  I  have  used  my  influence  and  have  given  twenty-five 
horses  as  presents  to  the  Northern  Indians  to  induce  them  to  come  in 
and  hold  the  great  council  here.  I  wish  you  would  tell  my  Great  Father 
about  my  giving  these  horses ;  that  I  am  a  poor  man,  and  I  am  using 
, these  horses  for  him.  The  commissioners  have  promised  those  young 
men  a  horse  and  saddle  and  bridle  apiece  for  going  after  the  Northern 
Indians,  but  I  hope  they  are  not  part  of  the  sixty  we  have  received. 
[Theagenthere  explained  that  those  commissioners  had  not  promised  each 
a  horse  and  saddle  and  bridle,  but  had  told  the  Indians  they  would  pay 
them  for  going.]  Almost  all  my  young  men  have  gone  out  to  catch  wild 
horses  at  the  mouth  of  Pawnee  Fork.  When  you  see  my  people  you  may 
think  they  are  very  few,  but  you  will  know  that  most  of  them  have  gone 
out  after  wild  horses.  About  giving  us  rations  every  seven  days — the 
amount  is  too  small  to  last ;  it  is  small  enough  when  we  get  it  every  ten 
days.  I  would  like  you  to  write  to  the  Great  Father  and  let  him  know 
this  about  the  issue  of  our  rations,  that  we  would  like  to  have  them 
every  ten  days  instead  of  every  seven  days.  And  I  would  like  you  to 
send  one  man  from  here  to  the  cattle  herd  on  the  Niobrara  Kiver  and 
see  them  bring  in  the  cattle  for  issue.  There  will  be  cattle  here  for  issue 
to-morrow,  and  I  think  they  will  be  the  best  cattle  in  the  herd,  and  I 
wish  you  would  send  some  one  to  see  the  remainder  of  the  herd.  The 
way  they  give  the  rations  here  they  must  think  we  need  only  half  a  dollar's 


302 

worth,  apiece.  They  mast  count  us  all  for  about  half  a  dollar's  worth  of 
rations  each,  and  it  may  be  less— a  quarter  of  a  dollar's  worth. 

Another  tiling — I  have  not  seen  it  myself,  but  I  have  heard  complaints 
by  the  women  and  children,  that  when  the  issues  were  given  they  would 
throw  the  corn  nearly  in  their  faces;  they  would  issue  it  very  roughly, 
and  I  wish  you  would  see  to  that.  There  are  a  good  many  of  the  young  men 
here  who  have  been  brought  up  among  the  whites,  and  they  understand 
a  good  deal  of  the  English  language  ;  they  hear  the  people  at  the  issuing 
cursing  and  swearing  at  them  a  good  deal,  and  we  don't  like  that,  and  i 
hope  you  will  have  it  stopped.  That  is  about  all  I  have  to  say  ;  only  here 
[in  the  warehouse]  is  the  sugar  and  the  flour,  if  there  is  any  here  now, 
and  I  would  like  you  to  look  at  it.  Last  winter  some  of  our  people  were 
starving ;  when  we  got  back  from  Washington  there  were  some  that 
were  nearly  starving.  For  myself  I  don't  know  this  to  be  a  fact,  but  I 
was  told  so ;  I  was  gone  for  six  or  seven  weeks,  but  I  was  informed  of 
it  'by  the  people  who  were  here.  I  hope  before  you  leave  here  you  will 
bore  a  hole  in  these  barrels  of  sugar  and  taste  it,  and  see  what  kind  of 
sugar  it  is  ;  and  that  you  will  open  a  sack  of  coffee  and  examine  it ;  and 
if  there  is  any  flour  like  what  we  got  here,  look  at  it ;  itwas  full  of  mice- 
holes.  I  hope  when  you  get  back  to  my  Great  Father  you  will  make  a 
good  report  of  this,  and  see  that  we  get  some  white  sugar  instead  of 
yellow  sugar,  and  good  provisions,  hereafter. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  want  to  talk  to  two  or  three  of  you  by  yourselves, 
and  we  will  try  to  answer  as  best  we  can  the  questions  you  have  asked. 
We  want  to  talk  privately  with  Red  Cloud  and  a  few  others  whom  he 
may  choose  to  bring  with  him,  before  we  go  away  from  here,  whenever 
it  suits  their  convenience. 

lied  Cloud,  Little  Wound,  and  other  prominent  chiefs  then  came 
forward  and  shook  hands  with  the  commissioners,  and  the  council 
closed. 


INFORMAL  TALK  WITH  THE  OGALLALAS. 

In  accordance  with  the  suggestion  of  the  chairman  at  the  close  of  the 
council  in  the  warehouse,  Eed  Cloud,  Sitting  Bull,  Face  Shoulder,  Tall 
Lance,  Scraper,  Slow  Bull,  Fast  Thunder,  and  Old-Mau-Afraid-of-his- 
Horse  had  a  private  interview  with  the  commissioners  in  the  agent's 
house. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  You  have  heard  what  Little  Wound  said  to-day, 
and  now,  if  you  have  anything  more  to  say  to  us,  we  shall  be  glad  to 
hear  it. 

SiTTiNGr  BULL.  We  heard  what  these  two  men  here,  Red  Cloud  and 
Little  Wound,  said,  and  we  understood  it  all.  Here  is  the  Old-Mau- 
Afraid  of-his-llorse,  he  is  a  man  of  sense,  and  all  these  young  men  here, 
they  are  men  of  sense.  I  am  living  with  them  here,  and  anything  they 
say  I  listen  to.  1  listen  to  what  they  say  ;  at  the  same  time  I  listen  to 
what  the  whites  say.  I  said  a  few  words  when  I  was  in  Washington  to 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ;  these  words  I  would  like  to  re 
peat  here,  with  a  few  more  words.  All  these  men  you  see  here  with  me 
are  trying  to  be  friendly  to  the  whites,  and  are  trying  to  follow  their 
ways,  and  if  any  Indian  says  anything  against  the  whites  it  docs  not 
please  them.  We  understood  that  you  have  come  out  here  for  the  Great 
Father  because  there  are  some  things  going  on  here  that  he  don't  like, 
and  you  want  to  get  all  the  news  and  facts,  and  I  am  very  much  pleased 


303 

to  see  you.  There  is  Old-Man- Afraid-of-bis-Horse ;  be  used  to  be  tbe 
brave  man  of  tbe  Sioux  Nation  ;  we  used  to  follow  him,  and  everybody 
under  bini  used  to  follow  bim,  and  listened  to  what  be  said,  and  any 
thing  be  said  we  agreed  with  him.  We  asked  Red  Cloud  to  speak  for 
us,  and  be  has  asked  every  time  for  a,  new  agent.  This  don't  please  us, 
we  young  men  sitting  in  here  now.  We  have  this  man  (Agent  Saville) 
to  work  for  us,  and  we  have  helped  him,  and  just  about  the  time  he  is 
trying  to  do  something  for  us  they  are  trying  to  throw  him  away  ;  this 
is  a  fact.  Ked  Cloud  asked  for  another  agent,  and  he  will  keep  doing 
that,  and  we  don't  know  where  he  will  find  a  better  one.  About  the 
blankets  which  came  here  :  there  were  thirty-seven  bales,  and  they  were 
divided  between  twenty  different  parties;  half  of  them  were  again  di 
vided  into  twenty  parts,  and  they  then  went  around  and  divided  them 
again,  and  half  of  the  Indians  got  blankets  and  the  other  half  did  not 
get  any. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Did  you  count  them  ? 

SITTING  BULL.  I  was  right  there  in  the  door  and  counted  them  when 
they  went  into  the  warehouse;  there  were  thirty-seven  bales. 

Tbe  CHAIRMAN.  How  many  Northern  Indians  were  here  at  that  time  ? 

SITTING-  BULL.  When  they  counted  us  there  were  a  great  many,  but 
when  the  goods  came  about  half  as  many  more  as  were  here  came  in, 
and  that  made  the  goods  to  go  around  too  small. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  How  many  lodges  of  northern  Indians  were  there 
camped  on  the  north  side  of  White  River  during  the  cold  weather  last 
fall,  when  the  annuity-goods  were  issued  "? 

SITTING  BULL.  When  Professor  Marsh  came  here  we  asked  bim  to 
stop  and  wait  for  those  Northern  Indians  to  get  out  of  the  way  so  that 
he  could  go  to  look  for  bones,  and  we  told  him  when  he  did  go  he  could 
have  some  of  the  young  men  to  go  with  him.  When  be  did  go  there 
were  a  few  of  each  band  of  the  Uncpapas,  Minuecoujoux,  Ogallallas, 
Oukapes,  and  a  few  others  of  the  Northern  Indians  remaining  on  the 
north  side  of  White  River,  but  most  of  the  Northern  Indians  had  gone. 

SWORD  and  FACE  corroborated  Sitting  Bull's  statement  in  regard  to 
those  northern  Indians,  and  so  also  did  all  the  other  Indians  who  were 
present;  and  this  was  verified  by  Mr.  Pallarday,  interpreter,  and  Jules 
Ecoffee. 

SITTING  BULL.  You  told  me  yesterday  that  the  troops  would  take 
all  tbe  white  people  away  from  the  Black  Hills  by  the  15th  of  August, 
and  the  young  men  were  all  very  glad  to  know  that  these  miners  were 
to  be  out  of  tbe  Black  Hills  before  the  Northern  Indians  came  down  to 
the  grand  council. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  saw  General  Crook,  and  he  said  he  bad  orders 
from  tbe  President  to  get  those  miners  all  out  by  the  15th  of  this  mouth, 
and  tbe  miners  have  all  agreed  to  go  by  that  time.  In  five  days  more 
they  must  all  be  gone,  or  General  Crook  will  make  them  go  with  his 
soldiers. 

SITTING-.  BULL.  I  wish  that  tbe  agent  would  quit  tbe  seven  days' 
rations  after  to-morrow,  (some  of  us  don't  get  them,)  and  give  us  the 
rations  every  ten  days. 

Tbe  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  consulted  with  the  agent  about  this  mat 
ter.  Tbe  law  requires  him.  to  issue  rations  every  seven  days,  but  we 
have  told  bim  that  if  he  would  issue  every  ten  days  we  would  try  and 
make  it  all  right  at  Washington.  [Tbe  Indians  were  much  pleased  to 
bear  this.]  But  you  must  remember  that  we  can  only  make  tbe  request 
at  Washington  that  the  agent- be  allowed  to  do  this.  We  cannot  prom 
ise  to  change  tbe  law,  but  we  will  try  to  do  so.  We  have  requested 


304 

the  agent  to  keep  his  warehouse  open  until  the  tenth  day,  and  when  you 
come  for  your  rations  you  can  get  them  up  to  that  time. 

SWORD.  We  want  to  get  the  beef  one  day  and  the  rations  the  next 
day,  so  as  to  get  rations  every  ten  days. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  In  regard  to  your  not  getting  better  prices  for  your 
hides,  that  is  something  we  have  nothing  to  do  with  ;  we  have  no  power 
to  change ;  but  you  had  better  see  the  traders  and  get  some  instructions 
how  to  skin  the  legs,  and  not  make  lariats  out  of  them,  and  perhaps 
then  you  can  get  better  prices  for  them.  In  regard  to  the  wagons 
promised  you,  we  don't  know  anything  about  that  ourselves,  but  we  will 
inquire  about  it  and  learn  where  your  wagons  are,  and  how  you  will 
get  them,  and  we  will  let  your  agent  know  and  he  will  tell  you.  About 
giving  up  the  right  to  hunt  in  Nebraska,  and  whether  the  Government 
bought  the  land  or  not,  is  a  matter  that  the  grand  council  will  settle;  we 
cannot  speak  about  that  at  all.  We  intend  to  see  the  herds  of  cattle 
that  the  contractor  has  here,  and  we  will  see  if  they  are  all  as  good  as 
the  cattle  that  he  issues  to  you  while  we  are  here.  Little  Wound  com 
plained  of  some  of  the  men  at  the  agency  swearing  at  your  people  when 
they  came  to  get  their  rations.  We  don't  know  about  that,  but  we  will 
try  and  have  the  agent  correct  it ;  but  you  should  all  try  and  learn  the 
English  language,  so  as  to  be  able  to  talk  to  these  men  at  the  agency. 
We  have  heard  of  the  bad  flour  that  was  given  you,  and  we  have  heard 
of  some  of  your  people  starving,  and  we  are  trying  to  learn  all  about  it, 
and  whoever  is  to  blame  we  will  try  and  have  him  punished  for  it,  and 
we  will  try  and  have  things  done  better  hereafter,  so  that  there  will  be 
no  more  hunger  and  starvation.  Little  Wound  has  said  that  you  would 
all  like  to  have  clothes  like  we  wear,  and  we  would  all  be  very  glad  if  you 
would  wear  clothes  like  ours ;  but  do  you  really  want  to  wear  such 
clothes'?  [The  Indians  present  all  expressed  the  desire  to  wear  clothes 
like  the  white  man's.]  We  want  all  the  Indians  to  wear  clothes  like  ours, 
and  do  like  white  men  do. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  In  regard  to  the  recently-married  young  men  wanting 
separate  tepees  or  tents,  I  think  that  a  reasonable  idea,  and  when  we  go 
back  we  may  recommend  it  to  the  consideration  of  the  Great  Father. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  You  must  remember  that  we  do  not  promise  all  these 
things  to  you,  but  we  will  recommend  them  to  the  Great  Father  ;  we  will 
ask  him  to  do  these  things  for  you.  We  cannot  promise  anything  our 
selves,  but  we  will  ask  the  Great  Father  for  them.  Our  business  here 
is  only  to  learn  if  there  has  been  any  wrong  done  you.  Now,  we  would 
like  to  know  if  the  cattle  that  were  issued  to  you  last  fall  were  small  and 
poor  beeves  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes  ;  they  were  cows  and  small  yearlings,  but  they  were 
not  counted  as  beeves. 

FAST  THUNDER.  Once  they  gave  us  beef,  and  out  of  five  there  was  one 
yearling.  Sometimes  we  have  a  full  issue,  just  according  to  the  cattle. 
They  gave  me  four  head  of  cattle,  and  then  if  there  was  a  calf,  they 
would  drive  it  out. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Was  that  yearling  which  was  issued  to  you  with  the 
four  cattle  counted  in  as  one  beef? 

FAST  THUNDER.  No ;  it  was  not. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  [To  Red  Cloud.]  Were  the  cattle  that  were  issued  to  you 
all  large  cattle — large  steers  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  They  were  mixed  up,  small  and  large  cattle,  from  two 
to  twenty  years  old — some  large  and  some  small.  There  were  eight 
head  of  cattle  that  were  seen  bv  some  of  the  officers.  I  was  there  and 


305 

saw  them  myself.  And  I  suppose  tbat  is  why  they  complained  about 
the  beef,  arid  those  were  the  cattle  they  meant. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Did  the  eight  cattle  you  saw  and  speak  of  now  not 
correspond  in  size  and  condition  with  the  cattle  that  were  usually  is 
sued  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Out  of  those  they  issued  to  us  there  was  only  those 
eight  left,  and  they  were  left  because  they  were  poor.  They  were  kept 
back  and  not  issued  because  they  were  poor.  The  cattle  might  have 
been  fat  when  they  bought  them,  (when  the  contractor  bought  them,) 
but  in  bringing  them  here  they  got  poor. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  you  have  flour  issued  to  you  last  winter  that 
was  so  bad  that  you  could  not  eat  it  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes.  There  was  bad  flour.  I  am  the  one  that  took  the 
flour  and  the  tobacco,  and  some  of  the  coffee,  and  I  was  going  to  take 
some  of  the  pork,  but  it  was  not  good — nasty — and  I  did  not  like  to  put 
my  hands  on  it.  Sitting  Bull  recollects  this,  and  can  tell  you  the  same 
thing.  When  I  took  those  samples  to  Professor  Marsh,  1  said  to  him  : 
"  Take  these,  and  show  them  to  my  Great  Father,  and  when  you  get  there 
tell  him  I  will  be  there  to  see  him,  too  $  '7  but  I  thought  that  Professor 
Marsh  would  throw  them  away  before  he  got  there.  Last  summer  we 
asked  for  tea.  They  sent  us  eight  boxes,  but  out  of  the  eight  boxes  one 
got  bursted,  and  about  half  a  box  was  lost. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Was  the  flour  so  bad  that  you  could  not  use  it  ? 

BED  CLOUD.  Some  of  the  Indians  ate  some  of  it  before  they  found 
it  out.  Some  of  them  could  not  eat  it  at  all.  It  was  very  black.  We 
tried  to  make  it  raise  when  it  was  made  into  bread,  but  it  would  sink 
down,  and  we  could  not  make  bread  out  of  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Where  did  you  get  that  specimen  you  gave  to  Professor 
Marsh  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  took  it  out  of  the  commissary.  I  was  in  the  ware 
house,  and  the  clerk  was  shoveling  corn  and  walking  on  it.  I  told  him 
that  corn  cost  money,  and  was  paid  for  by  the  Government  for  me,  and 
to  pick  it  up,  and  not  be  treading  upon  it.  And  at  that  time  I  took  the 
flour  from  the  commissary. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Who  was  in  the  commissary  at  the  time  you  took  this 
flour? 

RED  CLOUD.  Some  of  the  employes ;  Dan,  I  think. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Was  any  flour  like  that  you  got  at  that  time  issued  to 
the  Indians  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  whole  nation  that  was  around  here  got  some  of  that 
flour. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Was  the  specimen  of  coffee  and  tobacco  which  you 
gave  Professor  Marsh  a  fair  sample  of  the  delivery  of  coffee  and  tobacco 
at  that  issue  "I 

RED  CLOUD.  There  is  a  man  [pointing  to  Face]  that  was  with  me 
when  I  took  the  coffee.  I  did  not  pick  it,  but  took  it  from  the  store 
house.  Question  me  well.  I  am  the  man  that  took  these  things,  and  I 
will  answer  everything  I  can. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  I  want  to  know  whether  those  specimens  you  gave 
Professor  Marsh  were  fair  specimens  j  or  were  they  some  bad  pieces 
which  you  picked  out  of  the  issue? 

RED  CLOUD.  There  was  no  different  quality  at  all.  The  tobacco  that 
was  issued  was  the  same  as  the  specimens.  There  is  some  in  the  com 
missary  now  that  is  better  than  what  was  there — long  black  plug  and 
small  plug.  The  small  plug  we  cannot  do  anything  with.  I  took  those 
20  IF 


306 

samples,  and  gave  them  to  Professor  Marsli  for  the  good  of  the  nation. 
I  wanted  to  get  good  tobacco  for  my  nation. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Did  you  take  the  samples  of  tobacco,  sugar,  and  cof 
fee  from  the  commissary  as  you  did  the  Hour1? 

KED  CLOUD.  Yes ;  and  I  also  picked  up  a  piece  of  pork,  but  I  dropped 
it  in  the  warehouse. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Did  those  samples  form  a  part  of  your  regular  issue  ? 

EED  CLOUD.  Did  you  see  where  we  were  sitting  in  the  warehouse  to 
day  ?  That  is  where  I  got  them. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  And  you  carried  them  direct  to  Professor  Marsh  ? 

KED  CLOUD.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Then  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  tobacco  that 
was  given  by  you  to  Professor  Marsh  was  some  that  you  took  from  the 
warehouse? 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  There  might  have  been  some  bad  specimens  in  the 
warehouse  which  the  agent  would  not  issue  to  the  Indians. 

KED  CLOUD.  I  went  out  and  got  lied  Dog,  and  we  went  down 
and  got  two  mules  and  a  wagon,  anil  then  went  and  got  those  specimens 
from  the  warehouse.  [Face  verified  this  statement.]  Colonel  Walker  was 
appointed  by  the  President  to  come  out  here  and  examine  our  blankets, 
and  we  gave  him  a  specimen  to  take  to  the  President,  and  he  promised 
that  he  would  take  them,  but  that  was  the  last  we  ever  heard  of  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Did  any  of  the  blankets  issued  to  you  last  fall  have 
holes  in  them  on  account  of  the  stamp? 

KED  CLOUD.   Yes. 

Mr.  HARRIS.    Can  you  show  us  any  of  them  ? 

[Face  here  exhibited  his  blanket,  and  so  also  did  some  of  the  other 
Indians  present,  and  these  blankets  showed  that  holes  had  worn  in 
them  just  where  they  were  stamped.  And  all  the  Indians  expressed  a 
strong  dislike  to  having  their  blankets  stamped,  because  they  always 
wore  out  in  that  place.] 

OLD-MAN- AFRAiD-OF-ins-HoRSE.  Y^ou  are  asking  us  all  these  ques 
tions  when  you  know  where  these  blankets  are  made,  and  you  have  an 
idea  where  the  flour  came  from,  and  that  is  the  place  for  you  to  go  and 
ask  questions  about  them. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Yes ;  but  we  want  to  know  whether  you  are  thoroughly 
satisfied  with  them. 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID-OF-HIS-HORSE.  When  these  young  men  went  to 
Washington,  they  took  pains  to  take  them  around  to  the  factories  and 
show  them  all  the  good  blankets  and  other  goods ;  but  after  they  came 
out  here  and  saw  the  goods,  they  found  that  they  were  not  the  same 
goods  that  had  been  promised  us.  It  is  the  same  way  with  the  provis 
ions.  They  send  too  small  a  quantity,  and  I  have  people  coming  here  to 
see  me,  and  I  cannot  feed  them. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  It  is  the  purpose  of  the  Government  to  send  you 
good  things,  and  we  have  come  to  inquire  if  the  tilings  that  have  come 
to  you  are  good  ;  and,  if  not,  we  want  to  know  the  reason  why  they  are 
not,  and  make  report  of  the  failure  to  the  Great  Father. 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID-OF-HIS-HORSE.  Y^ou  ought  to  know  the  man  who 
has  the  contract  for  furnishing  these  things,  and  you  can  go  back  to  him 
an'1  find  out  these  things. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  That  is  exactly  what  we  mean  to  do  when  we  find  that 
the  goods  have  not  been  delivered  by  him  according  to  his  contract. 

OLD  MAN-AFRAID  oF-His-HoRSE.  I  am  very  glad  he  has  picked  on  you 
good  men,  and  you  appear  to  be  good  men,  and  I  am  glad  you  are  taking 


307 

such  an  interest  in  us,  and  from  this  time  on  I  am  very  glad  to  know  that 
our  women  and  children  will  get  something  good,  and  will  be  cared  for. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  last  winter  in.  regard  to 
the  size  of  your  blankets  ? 

[All  the  Indians  present  exhibited  their  blankets,  and  stated  that  they 
were  too  small.] 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID-OF-HIS-HORSE.  Last  fall,  at  the  Spotted  Tail 
agency,  we  got  some  four  and  five  point  blankets,  very  large,  and  we  are 
trying  to  get  some  of  the  same  kind  of  blankets  that  we  got  down  there. 
I  wish  you  would  ask  them  to  send  us  some  fresh  bacon. 

Mr.  FAULKNER,  How  would  you  like  rice,  dried  apples,  and  hominy  ? 

OLD-MAN- AFRAID-OF-HIS  HORSE.  We  would  like  to  have  all  these 
things  you  mention,  and  some  good  flour,  top.  You  have  been  asking 
me  these  things,  and  I  have  been  telling  you  the  truth.  We  would  like 
to  have  some  Indian  corn  as  well  as  hominy. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Would  you  prefer  the  Indian  meal  to  flour  ? 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID-OF-HIS-HORSE.  We  would  like  to  have  corn,  not 
ground. 

Mr  ATHERTON.  How  would  you  like  to  have  a  baker  to  bake  your 
bread  ? 

OLD-MAN-AFRAID  OF-ms-HoRSE.  We  would  rather  make  our  bread 
ourselves. 

Mr.  ATHERTON,  [to  Red  Cloud.]  When  you  took  the  specimens  of  sup 
plies  from  the  warehouse,  were  any  of  the  employes  around,  or  did  you 
show  the  samples  to  any  of  the  employes? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  do  not  recollect.  I  did  not  look.  I  don't  know  how 
many  persons  were  there. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  But  did  you  show  them  to  any  of  the  employes  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  door  was  open  for  an  issue,  and  I  went  in  and  got 
them.  A  white  man  was  there  and  saw  it,  and  so  did  one  Indian. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Were  the  samples  that  you  gave  Professor  Marsh 
taken  from  the  sacks  from  which  supplies  were  then  being  issued  to  the 
Indians? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  supplies  for  my  band  were  all  issued  together  and 
distributed  among  the  families;  and  I  took  a  little  from  several  differ 
ent  supplies,  and  these  were  the  samples  I  gave  Professor  Marsh. 

[Sitting  Bull  came  to  the  commissioners  after  the  talk  with  the 
other  Indians,  and  said  that  he  and  the  young  men  of  the  tribe  wanted 
their  present  agent,  Dr.  Saville,  to  remain,  and  he  wanted  their  wishes 
in  this  respect  to  be  put  in  the  report  of  the  commissioners  to  the  Great 
Father,  so  that  he  might  know  their  wishes.] 


RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Wednesday,  August  11,  1875. 

ANOTHER  TALK  WITH  RED  CLOUD. 

Red  Cloud,  with  a  few  other  Indians,  came  and  requested  to  have  a 
little  talk  with  the  commissioners,  and  they  were  told  the  commissioners 
would  be  glad  to  hear  them.  Mr.  Leon  Pallarday  acted  as  interpreter. 

RED  CLOUD.  There  are  two  things  which  I  don't  like,  and  which  I 
want  to  tell  you  about : 

First.  There  is  another  thing  I  wish  to  tell  you  in  regard  to  Dr.  Sav- 


308 

ille  and  the  men  be  has  employed  here.     They  drink  too   much  whisky 
and  quarrel,  and  I  don't  like  that. 

Second.  There  is  a  portion  of  the  cattle  which  have  been  brought  up 
here,  and  issued  to  us,  up  on  the  creek.  I  can  tell  them  by  the  brand. 
I  do  not  understand  wby  they  are  kept  up  there.  They  belong  here,  but 
they  have  been  driven  up  there.  Two  of  my  young  men  have  been 
up  there,  and  have  detected  the  brand.  There  are  two  camps  there 
of  men  who  are  cutting  wood  above  the  agency  herding-camp.  Prob 
ably  those  men  having  charge  of  the  herd  have  traded  them  off 
to  the  wood-choppers.  It  is  about  five  or  six  miles  from  here.  I 
am  afraid  that  Dr.  Saville  knows  nothing  about  these  things.  They 
are  probably  traded  off  to  those  wood-choppers.  They  are  outside 
the  herder's  camp.  This  w.as  told  me  by  one  of  the  young  men  yester 
day,  and  I  wish  to  inform  you. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  will  make  inquiries  about  these  matters.  We 
want  to  ask  Ked  Cloud  how  these  cattle  which  were  issued  to  his 
people  to-day  compare  with  the  cattle  issued  to  them  heretofore.  Were 
they  as  large  ? 

KED  CLOUD.  This  is  the  only  time  that  the  cattle  have  averaged 
so  well  and  were  so  large.  All  the  people  here  are  very  much  pleased 
that  they  are  getting  such  good  cattle  as  those  to-day.  The  commissary 
also  acted  very  well  to  us  to-day,  and  I  am  very  glad. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Our  coming  here  has  done  one  good  thing  for  your 
people. 

BED  CLOUD.  Yes,  that  is  a  fact ;  and  all  our  people  are  talking  about 
it  and  are  very  glad.  The  commissary  has  been  more  polite  and  treated 
us  better  to-day.  Mr.  Bosler  told  me  some  time  ago  that  they  ought  to 
give  us  two  of  the  small  cattle  for  one,  as  our  families  are  so  large. 
This  is  the  fourth  time  I  have  asked  for  another  agent.  Yesterday  wras 
not  the  only  time.  And  the  whole  people  will  consent  to  have  another 
agent. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Why  do  you  wish  another  agent? 

KED  CLOUD.  I  have  told  you  the  reason  why.  It  is  on  account  of  the 
trouble  we  had  because  he  put  up  the  flag-staff.  The  Indians  are  afraid 
it  might  give  them  trouble. 

The  CHAIRMAN,  fto  Mr.  Pallarday.]  Have  you  noticed  any  difference 
in  the  treatment  of  the  different  tribes  in  the  matter  of  issuing  supplies  ? 

Mr.  PALLARDAY.  No,  sir. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Have  you  observed  that  one  tribe  was  treated  better 
than  another'? 

Mr.  PALLARDY.  No,  sir.  Since  I  have  been  here,  one  tribe  has  been 
treated  as  well  as  the  other.  The  same  treatment  is  shown  to  all. 

The  CHAIRMAN,  [to  Old-Man- Afraid,of-his- Horse.]  Did  you  see  the 
cattle  that  were  issued  to-day  ?  Did  you  ever  see  as  large  cattle  issued 
here  before  ? 

OLD-MAN- AFRAiD-OF-iiis-IIORSE.  Those  that  were  issued  to-day  were 
a  good  lot  of  cattle.  The  cattle  we  have  had  issued  to  us  would  not 
average  as  large  as  those  that  were  issued  to -day. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  What  objection  have  the  Indians  to  being  numbered 
or  being  counted  ?  We  heard  that  you  don't  like  it  ? 

OLD-MAN- APR AID-OF-HIS  HORSE.  I  cannot  tell  exactly  what  was  the 
reason.  There  were  some  that  did  not  want  to  be  counted,  but  I  don't 
know  why. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Unless  the  Indians  here  consent  to  be  counted,  they 
cannot  tell  at  Washington  the  number  of  Indians  to  send  rations  for, 
and  it  is  very  necessary  that  they  should  be  counted. 


309 

CAMP  ROBINSON,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  10,  ]  875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof.  GEORGKE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MAJOR  WILLIAM  H.  JORDAN. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Major,  I  believe  you  belong  to  the  Ninth  Infantry  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir ;  I  am  captain  in  the  Ninth  Infantry. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  here  commanding  the  post  since  the  middle  of  July, 
1874,  excepting  a  few  intervals. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  the  distance  from  your  garrison  here  to  the  Red 
Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  A  mile  and  a  half. 

Q.  During  last  winter  did  you  have  any  opportunity  of  observing  the 
condition  of  the  Indians  about  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  among  them  any  evidence  on  their  part  of  suffering 
for  want  of  supplies  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  they  seem  to  be  suffering  most  for  the  want  of? 

A.  Clothing  and  food. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  Indians  they  were  ? 

A.  Among  the  different  tribes ;  Sioux,  Arapahoes,  and  Cheyennes. 
More  particularly  the  Arapahoes  and  Cheyenues. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  it  you  observed  that  ? 

A.  In  the  severe  part  of  the  weather  in  January,  when  we  had  very 
cold  weather.  They  made  frequent  requests  to  me  for  food.  They  said 
they  were  starving  and  their  children  were  starving.  They  complained 
of  the  in  frequency  of  the  issues  of  food. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  opportunity  of  observing  the  issues  of  beef 
here  ? 

A.  Not  until  the  last  issue.  I  wras  present  on  duty  to  look  after  some 
stolen  horses.  That  was  a  week  ago  to  day. 

Q.  How  did  the  beef  you  saw  issued  there  compare  with  the  beef  you 
get  for  the  army  ? 

A.  It  is  not  as  good,  sir ;  I  don't  think  we  would  receive  it.  There  were 
a  good  many  small  and  poor  cattle. 

Q.  The  beef  you  get  here  you  buy  on  the  block,  dressed,  I  believe  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  the  butcher  furnishes  it  dressed.  The  contractor  fur 
nishes  it  on  foot. 

Q.  Is  it  weighed  on  foot  I 

A.  They  furnish  it  on  the  block  by  the  weight;  it  is  received  on  the 
block ;  it  is  butchered  according  as  we  need  it,  and  delivered  as  we 
want  it ;  it  is  weighed  and  paid  for  by  the  net  weight. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 
Q.  At  how  much  a  pound  ? 

A.  It-was  9|  cents  on  the  last  contract ;  but  there  is  a  new  contract 
now,  that  went  into  operation  on  the  1st  of  July,  and  that  is  at  8  cents. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  what  is  the  average  weight  of 
these  cattle  that  are  delivered  here  that  you  receive  1 


310 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  Dever  took  particular  notice  of  the  average  weight. 

Q.  Is  there  some  one  here  who  can  give  us  that  information  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  post-butcher,  Mr.  Julius  H.  Green.  He  is  hired  by 
the  contractor  to  do  the  butchering  and  look  out  for  the  cattle. 

Q.  Major,  did  you  have  any  opportunity  of  observing  any  of  the 
other  supplies  issued  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  never  noticed  anything  but  the  tobacco,  flour,  and  pork  ;  that 
was  during  the  winter,  and  I  happened  to  be  at  the  agency  and  noticed 
it. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  supplies? 

A.  The  tobacco  seemed  to  be  very  dark  in  color.  It  was  wet  and 
seemed  to  be  very  strong.  The  Indians  complained  of  it  making  their 
months  sore;  and  they  often  came  to  me  to  get  what  they  called  the 
soldiers'  tobacco.  The}'  said  it  was  much  better. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  notice  of  the  flour  ? 

A.  I  never  noticed  it,  but!  have  seen  bread  made  of  it.  The  soldiers 
trade  with  the  Indians  hard  bread  tor  flour,  and  they  had  to  mix  it  with 
their  flour  to  make  good  bread  of  it.  The  flour  seemed  to  be  very  poor 
and  dark-colored,  and  soured  very  easily.  It  was  not  flour  that  the 
Army  would  receive  for  issue  to  the  troops. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  report  to  Washington  on  the  subject  of  the 
suffering  of  the  Indians  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  was  outside  of  my  business. 

Q.  You  never  sent  any  report  to  Washington  in  reference  to  the  want 
of  supplies  and  the  suffering  among  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  outside  of  my  jurisdiction.  It  would  have  been 
interfering  with  business  I  had  nothing  to  do  with. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  occasion  to  observe  the  official  conduct  of 
the  agent  at  the  Eed  Cloud  Agency,  so  as  to  enable  you  to  judge  of  his 
efficiency  as  an  agent? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have. 

Q.  I  will  be  obliged  if  yon  will  give  us  the  circumstances. 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  can  give  you  some  documents,  too,  if  you  wish. 

Q.  Yes,  we  would  like  to  have  them. 

A.  Well,  it  is  rather  a  long  story.  When  I  first  came  here,  in  July, 
1874,  the  officers  then  stationed  here  had  a  great  deal  to  complain  of 
against  the  agent,  Dr.  Saville,  and  warned  me  against  him.  But,  know 
ing  that  these  statements  might  be  exaggerated,  I  resolved  not  to  be 
influenced  by  them,  but  to  make  up  my  own  opinion  from  what  I  saw 
myself;  and,  knowing  at  the  same  time  that  it  was  absolutely  necessary 
for  the  good  of  the  Indians  that  harmony  should  exist  between  the 
agent  and  myself,  I  did  all  I  could  to  preserve  harmony  between  us. 
Last  October — the  23d  day  of  October — at  1  o'clock  in  the  day,  I  re 
ceived  a  note  from  the  agent,  asking  me  to  send  a  company  of  cavalry 
to  the  agency  immediate!}'.  Being  under  strict  orders  not  to  furnish 
troops  except  to  defend  the  agency,  and  the  note  not  stating  for  what 
purpose  these  troops  were  to  be  used,  I  was  at  a  loss  what  to  do  at  first, 
whether  to  send  up  and  find  out  for  what  they  would  be  used,  or  to  send 
them  at  once,  taking  the  risk  that  a  necessity  called  for  the  troops. 
Thinking  probably  that  the  lives  of  the  persons  and  the  public  prop 
erty  were  in  danger,  I  resolved  to  send  as  much  cavalry  as  -I  could 
spare,  which  was  only  twenty  men.  A  few  hours  after  the  officer  in 
command,  Lieutenant  Crawford,  arrived  there,  a  courier  came  from  him 
stating  that  he  was  surrounded  by  200  Indians,  painted  and  ready  for 
war.  But  owing  to  his  coolness  and  the  assistance  of  Sitting  Bull,  and 
Old-Man,  and  Young-Mau-Afraid-of-his-Horses,  (father  and  son,)  and 


311 

Red  Dog,  and  several  other  Indian  chiefs,  these  Indians  were  prevented 
from  attacking  Lieutenant  Crawford  and  niassacreing  the  whole  party, 
as  they  could  have  done. 

.Lieutenant  Crawford  dismounted  his  men,  ready  to  defend  them 
selves.  At  this  time,  one  of  the  employes  of  the  agency  came  to 
the  main  gate,  and  told  him  he  had  better  come  into  the  agency  iuclos- 
ure  with  his  command,  as  the  Indians  were  increasing  in  numbers* 
Lieutenant  Crawford  took  his  men  inside.  About  4  o'clock  Lieutenant 
Crawford  sent  ns  another  messenger,  saying  that  with  the  assistance  he 
had  he  thought  he  could  defend  the  agency,  and  advised  me  to  look  out 
at  the  post  for  the  Indians.  He  thought  they  were  coming  to  attack  the 
post.  He  also  said  that  Sitting  Bull  told  the  agent  that  if  he  would 
send  the  soldiers  back  to  the  camp,  he  would  bring  his  band  inside  and 
defend  the  agency  until  the  excitement  was  over.  About  5  o'clock  Lieu 
tenant  Crawford  returned  with  his  men,  and  Sitting  Bull  took  his  baud 
inside,  and  the  excitement  died  out.  Lieutenant  Crawford  told  me  when 
he  got  back  that  before  he  left  there  must  have  been  400  Indians  there 
— some  with  wisps  of  straw  and  matches,  ready  to  fire  the  buildings — all 
painted,  and  yelling  out,  "  Take  the  soldiers  prisoners ;  shoot  them," 
and  all  that  sort  of  thing.  And  he  told  me  the  cause  of  the  trouble, 
which  I  think  the  agent  was  greatly  to  blame  for.  It  was  his  attempt 
ing  to  erect  a  flag-staff  at  the  agency,  contrary  to  the  wishes  of  the  In 
dians  $  which  flag-staff  the  Indians  had  cut  up  before  he  could  erect  it. 
There  were  only  a  few  Indians  engaged  in  this  trouble  at  first,  but,  of 
course,  when  they  saw  a  courier  sent  for  troops,  they  sent  runners  to  all 
their  camps,  and  gathered  up  their  young  men  to  fight.  It  being  an  un 
usual  thing  10  erect  a  flag-staff  at  the  agency,  the  Indians  looked  upon 
it  as  a  declaration  of  war — an  attempt  to  turn  the  agency  into  a  soldiers' 
fort,  as  they  called  it ;  and  that  was  what  exasperated  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  was  the  agent's  alleged  reason  for  erecting  the  flag-staff? 

A.  I  canuot  tell.  He  wanted  to  have  a  flag ;  that  is  all.  What  I 
blame  him  for  was  his  not  informing  me  of  this  trouble,  which  was 
brooding  for  two  or  three  days,  when  be  knew  that  my  force  was  the 
weakest  that  it  had  been  up  to  that  time  (only  one  hundred  and  forty 
men)  and  has  been  since;  and  it  was  not  a  time  then  to  try  any  exper 
iment  with  Indians,  especially  such  as  would  excite  them  to  war.  I  had 
had  five  companies  of  troops  before  that,  and  I  had  sent  two  compa 
nies  off  a  few  days  before  to  New  Orleans,  of  which  I  had  informed 
him  the  night  before  the  troops  had  to  leave  us,  so  that  he  would  know 
the  strength  of  my  garrison.  If  these  men  that  I  sent  up  there  had 
been  killed,  as  they  could  have  been,  it  would  have  been  owing  to  his 
lack  of  judgment  in  trying  to  erect  this  flag-staff  when  the  force  here 
was  weak  and  I  had  but  few  men  to  spare.  He  is  too  nervous  and  excit 
able  a  man  for  so  important  a  position  as  that.  I  found  that  out  from 
my  official  relations  with  him  ;  and  the  mere  fact  of  attempting  that 
thing  and  failing  in  it  of  course  had  a  bad  effect  with  the  Indians.  We 
want  a  firm,  courageous,  cool  man  for  agent  in  such  an  important 
agency  as  this. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  information  as  to  what  was  his  conduct  or  ap 
peared  to  be  his  influence  in  managing  the  Indians  during  this  excite 
ment  ? 

A.  Lieutenant  Crawford  said  that  he  lost  his  head.  He  went  around 
there  very  nervous  and  excited. 


312 

By  Mr.  FAULKNEK  : 

Q.  Did  you,  in  any  conversation  which  you  had  with  the  agent,  ad 
vise  him  against  the  erection  of  this  flag-staff? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  had  never  said  a  word  to  him  about  it.  I  did  not  know 
that  he  was  to  attempt  it.  We  had  an  understanding  that  he  would 
erect  a  small  flag-staff  on  the  bastion  in  order  to  signal  to  ine  in  case  of 
danger.  We  have  a  system  of  signals.  But  this  that  he  was  going  to 
erect  was  a  large  pole. 

Q,  Was  not  the  flag-staff  that  was  actually  erected  upon  the  bastion 
one  of  that  character  ? 

A.  I  never  knew  any  had  been  erected  ;  not  to  my  knowledge.  He 
intended  to  erect  one,  but  I  suppose  he  thought  they  would  object  to 
that  too. 

Q.  The  agency  is  in  full  view  of  your  fort  °? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  means  have  you  now  of  communicating  with  it? 

A.  None,  only  by  couriers.  We  have  a  signal-apparatus  among  our 
selves,  and  everything  we  do  we  can  communicate  to  each  other ;  but  the 
agency  has  nothing  to  do  with  it.  The  agency  has  no  means  of  signaling 
me.  It  would  not  take  long,  however,  for  a  courier  to  come,  as  it  was  in 
that  instance.  He  could  come  down  the  WThite  Kiver  Valley  in  a  few 
minutes. 

Q.  Had  there  been  any  previous  understanding  between  you  and  the 
agent  that  in  the  event  of  a  difficulty  he  was  to  signal  to  you  by  a  flag  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  only  a  talk,  as  if  he  would  like  to  erect  one  on  the  bastion  ; 
but  we  had  no  definite  understanding. 

Q.  If  you  had  seen  a  flag  hoisted  on  the  bastion  would  you  have  re 
garded  it  as  a  signal  of  danger,  and  calling  for  your  interposition  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  unless  wehad  an  understanding  about  it,  and  a  peculiar  flag, 
and  the  manner  in  which  it  was  used — they  might  have  run  it  up  and 
down  two  or  three  times. 

Then  there  is  another  matter  that  gave  me  my  opinion  of  him.  Last 
December — I  think  it  was  in  the  first  part  of  D*ecember  last — Bed  Dog 
and  Ked  Cloud  came  down  to  see  me,  and  said  they  wanted  to  go  to 
Washington  to  see  the  Great  Father,  and  asked  me  if  I  could  assist  them 
in  any  vs  ay,  and  said  that  the  agent  did  not  want  them  to  go.  I  told 
them  that  I  could  not ;  that  it  was  entirely  outside  of  my  business,  and 
I  would  have  nothing  to  do  with  it.  They  had  as  interpreter  a  misera 
ble  squaw-man  here  named  Stover,  I  think  it  is.  They  wanted  me  to 
go  with  them  to  Washington.  I  told  them  I  could  not.  They  asked 
me  if  I  could  not  furnish  them  an  officer  to  go.  I  told  them  I  had  nothing 
to  do  with  Indian  affairs,  and  did  not  want  anything  to  do  with  them  ; 
that  I  had  enough  to  do  to  look  out  for  my  command.  They  asked  me 
if  I  would  not  let  them  send  word  down  to  Fort  Laramie  and  telegraph 
to  Washington.  I  told  them  I  would  not ;  that  I  wanted  them  to  dis 
tinctly  understand  that  I  would  not  have  anything  to  do  with  Indian 
affairs  ;  that  I  had  my  prescribed  duties  to  perform,  and  beyond  that  I 
would  not  interfere,  as  I  did  not  want  to  get  myself  into  unnecessary 
trouble.  Several  weeks  after  that  there  was  a  communication  referred 
to  me  for  report.  It  was  a  complaint  made  by  Dr.  Saville,  written  to 
Dr.  C.  C.  Cox,  one  of  the  commissioners  who  were  here  last  fall  to 
establish  the  new  Spotted  Tail  agency,  stating  that  the  officers  here 
were  taking  an  unusual  interest  in  Indian  affairs,  holding  councils  with 
Indians,  advising  them  to  go  to  Washington,  and  telling  them  that  if  the 
agent  did  not  go  with  them  they  would 


313 

(By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Major,  have  you  got  that  document? 

1  A.  1  have  not;  I  made  my  indorsement  on  it,  and  it  was  returned;  Ihave 
my  indorsement,  though) — complaining  that  the  officers  here  were  inter 
fering  with  his  prerogative  as  agent,  and  stating  no  authority  whatever 
for  this  except  the  mere  statement  of  this  Indian,  Red  Cloud ;  never  even 
investigating  the  matter.  He  never  said  a  word  to  myself  or  any  other 
officer  about  it.  I  suppose  that  the  truth  of  it  is,  that  this  interpreter 
had  interpreted  falsely.  It  was  a  lie  from  beginning  to  end — his  state 
ment  to  Dr.  Cox — for  I  had  been  very  careful  not  to  give  him  any  cause 
of  complaint  against  me  or  any  officer  at  this  post,  showing  that  he  was 
not  as  anxious  for  harmony  to  exist  between  the  agency  and  the  military 
as  I  was.  I  can  give  you  my  indorsement  on  that  paper.  This  paper 
went  through  all  the  military  channels  as  it  came  to  the  War  Depart 
ment,  and  then  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  calling  attention  to 
my  indorsement  denying  the  whole  thing.  I  also  stated  in  this  indorse 
ment  that  if  this  man  Bed  Cloud's  statements  could  be  believed,  as  they 
were  by  him,  this  same  Indian's  repeated  assertions  that  Ageat  Saville 
was  robbing  the  Indians  were  true;  and  saying  that  1  had  as  much 
right  to  believe  his  statement  against  Saville  as  he  had  to  believe 
his  statement  against  us;  but  at  the  same  time  I  paid  no  attention  at 
all  to  these  complaints  of  Eed  Cloud,  because  an  Indian's  word  is  not 
to  be  taken  against  a  white  man  in  this  civilized  age,  I  think.  I  soon 
afterward  received  a  communication  from  the  War  Department  approv 
ing  my  action,  and  commending  my  conduct  in  the  matter  of  this  com 
plaint.  I  was  also  furnished  with  a  copy  of  a  letter  from  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  to  Agent  Saville,  admonishing  him  that  whenever  he 
made  reports,  to  make  them  based  on  some  facts. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  have  those  documents,  I  suppose? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  all  I  have  to  say  about  it.  These  facts  convinced 
me  that  he  was  not  the  right  man  for  agent  of  that  agency. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Wns  that  letter  from  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  or  from  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  himself  to  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  calling  for  a  report  from  me ;  it  had  a  great 
deal  to  say  that  officers  of  the  Army  should  be  instructed  not  to  inter 
fere  with  the  agents  so  as  to  destroy  the  harmony  between  the  mili 
tary  and  the  agents,  while  there  was  no  instance  of  interference,  except 
his  own  example. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Over  what  route  do  you  transport  your  goods  and  supplies  from 
the  railroad  here  ? 

A.  I  have  had  them  come  by  three  different  routes — from  Cheyenne 
direct,  from  Cheyenne  by  way  of  Fort  Laramie,  and  by  the  one  from 
Sidney.  They  principally  come  by  the  new  route  from  Sidney  now.  It 
has  only  been  established  about  a  year. 

Q.  That  is  understood  to  be  the  nearest  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  nearly  one  hundred  and  twenty-five  inile«.  I  was 
with  the  officer  that  surveyed  it. 

Q.  Are  your  supplies  brought  here  by  contract? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  freight  contract. 


314 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  is  the  rate  that  is  paid  for  the  transportation 
of  goods  from  Sidney  here? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  could  send  and  find  out  from   the  quartermaster,  Mr.% 
Lee.     He  will  tell  you. 

Q.  Who  was  the  officer  who  surveyed  the  road  from  here  to  Sidney? 

A.  Lieutenant  Morton,  of  the  Third  Cavalry. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now  ? 

A.  He  is  up  in  the  Black  Hills  with  his  cavalry. 

Q.  That  was  about  a  year  ago  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  just  a  year  ago  last  August. 

Q.  Did  you  feed  the  Indians  last  winter  ? 

A.  I  noticed  last  winter  that  a  good  many  Indians  were  glad  to  come 
here  and  take  things  out  of  the  garbage  barrels,  and  Friday  told  me  that 
his  tribe  had  to  sell  some  of  their  horses,  and  if  they  did  not  get  rations 
soon  they  would  have  to  go  to  the  Powder  Itiver  and  hunt  to  keep  from 
starving.  I  think  he  told  Dr.  Dixon,  the  agent  sent  out  from  AVashing- 
ton,  the  same  thing.  On  the  other  hand,  I  must  say,  in  favor  of  the 
agent,  tl^at  these  Indians  are  very  improvident.  You  give  them  ten 
days'  rations  and  they  would  eat  them  up  in  three,  and  invite  all  their 
people  in  and  gorge  themselves,  and  then  starve  the  rest  of  the  time. 
I  do  not  know  what  is  the  cause  of  these  people  being  starved.  Whether 
it  is  owing  to  their  own  fault  or  to  the  agent's,  I  do  not  know.  I  do  not 
wish  to  give  a  decided  opinion  about  that.  The  leading  chiefs  have 
often  come  down  to  me  and  said  their  children  were  starving,  and  under 
existing  orders  I  have  often  given  them  coffee,  hard  bread,  and  bacon. 
They  were  often  glad  to  trade  a  sack  of  flour  for  ten  or  twelve  loaves  of 
bread,  or  twenty-five  pounds  of  hard  bread. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  are  the  orders  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  An  order  from  the  War  Department,  and  also  Army  Regulations, 
allowing  commanding  officers  of  posts  to  issue  rations  in  small  quanti 
ties  at  a  time  to  Indians  visiting  the  post.  Sometimes  I  would  give 
them  from  eight  to  ten  days'  rations  of  hard  bread  and  bacon,  or  sugar 
and  coffee,  especially  to  those  Indians  whom  I  knew  to  be  friendly  to 
us,  and  who  were  our  friends  at  the  time  of  the  trouble  about  the 
flag-staff.  I  think  they  ought  to  have  been  rewarded  in  some  other 
way,  too.  I  have  no  doubt  they  had  hard  work  to  keep  the  young 
men  from  assassinating  Lieutenant  Crawford  and  his  party.  I  was  glad 
to  see  that  Sitting  Bull  had  been  rewarded  by  the  President  with  the 
present  of  a  handsoire  rifle.  He  was  the  principal  one  that  kept  these 
young  men  back0 

Q.  Major,  with  whom  did  the  Indians  trade  their  flour  for  bread  ? 

A.  The  soldier  bakers. 

Q.  Then  you  distributed  your  rations  to  the  soldiers,  and  they  had 
their  own  bakers? 

A.  We  did  ;  then  each  company  had  its  own  baker. 

Q.  To  what  extent  do  you  think  that  the  exchange  of  flour  went  on  ? 

A.  Not  to  a  very  great  extent ;  only  through  the  winter.  The  flour 
was  not  like  what  we  received  in  the  Army.  I  have  seen  some  of  it, 
and  I  noticed  once  or  twice  some  pork  which  had  been  issued  to  them 
last  fall.  It  seemed  rusty  and  lean,  and  very  unfit  for  human  beings  to 
eat.  At  other  times  I  have  seen  very  good  pork  issued  there  since  that 
time. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  coffee  issued  UK  re  last  winter  1 


315 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  examined  the  coffee  or  the  sugar.  They  com 
plained  particularly  about  the  tobacco  ;  that  it  made  their  mouths  and 
tongues  and  lips  sore.  I  have  noticed  it  as  being  very  black,  damp, 
and  poor-looking  stuff. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  observe  the  blankets  that  were  issued  last  fall  ? 

A.  1  never  took  particular  notice.  I  consider  them  good  blankets, 
but  not  as  good  as  we  get  in  the  Army.  We  get  the  mission  woolen 
blankets  from  the  Mission  Woolen  Mills  in  San  Francisco.  I  think  they 
took  the  prize  at  the  Paris  Exposition.  I  have  been  stationed  in  Califor 
nia,  and  know  they  are  the  finest  blankets  issued  in  the  Army.  These  In 
dian  blankets  were  not  as  good  as  those,  but  the  Indians  never  com 
plained  to  me  about  blankets;  they  complained  about  the  time  they 
got  them.  They  said  they  did  not  get  them  soon  enough. 

Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  they  received? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  branding  of  them? 

A.  They  had  a  brand  u  U.  S.  I.  D."  OIL  them.  I  think  it  was  stamped 
in  paint  or  some  other  coloring-matter. 

Q.  Are  they  branded  in  the  same  way  as  the  Army  blankets  ? 

A.  They  are  stamped  in  the  same  general  way,  but  not  with  the  same 
material.  The  Army  blankets  are  stamped  lightly  "  U.  S.,"  so  that  it 
does  not  injure  the  blanket. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  them  where  these  brands  had  eaten  through 
and  made  a  hole  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  it  is]  very  probable  that  it  would  be  so  if  it  was  not 
properly  colored. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Does  your  experience  and  intercourse  among  the  Indians  about 
here  enable  you  to  state  whether  there  is  any  improvement  observable 
within  the  last  two  or  three  years  in  their  temper  and  feeling  toward 
the  white  race  <? 

A.  Yes;  I  think  there  is  a  great  improvement.  A  great  many  of 
them  are  getting  wagons  and  cows  ;  a  great  many  of  them  try  to  farm 
and  become  civilized,  and  their  friendship  is  stronger.  Of  course  there 
are  always  young  men  in  each  tribe  that  are  bad — pretty  hard  to  civil 
ize — especially  of  the  Sioux;  but  I  think  they  are  improving,  and  have 
been  for  two  or  three  years.  I  think  they  would  have  done  very  well 
here  with  their  gardens  if  it  had  not  been  for  the  grasshoppers.  A 
great  many  of  them  planted  corn,  and  I  don't  think  it  has  done  very 
well.  The  grasshoppers  ate  up  everything  as  fast  as  it  came  above 
ground. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  what  reliance  can  be  placed  in  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  None  at  all.  I  think  that  he  could  be  bought  with  a  bottle  of 
whisky. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  about  Red  Dog  ? 

A.  The  same  of  him. 

Q.  Would  you  make  the  same  remark  of  all  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  At  the  day  of  the  trouble  about  the  flag-staff,  the  Indians 
could  have  turned  out  2,000  warriors,  1,500  of  them  armed  with  the  most 
improved  rifles,  with  plenty  of  ammunition,  and  the  other  500  with  bows 


316 

and  arrows.  This  is  according  to  Dr.  Saville's  own  statement.  Many 
of  them  go  around  with  two  revolvers  and  ammunition.  They  get  most 
of  their  arms  of  the  traders  along  the  railroad  when  they  go  hunting  up 
north.  A  great  many  have  Winchester  rifles,  which  are  not  furnished 
by  the  Government.  They  use  their  arms  principally  in  killing  their 
cattle  when  they  are  issued  to  them. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  J.  M.  LEE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  I  believe  you  are  a  lieutenant  in  the  Ninth  Infantry. 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  here  ? 

A.  Since  the  21st  of  August,  1874. 

Q.  Have  you  performed  the  duties  of  quartermaster  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  since  the  21st  of  September,  1874. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  observed  the  character  of  the  beef  that  was  fur 
nished  at  the  agency  by  the  contractor  ? 

A.  I  have  never  been  at  their  corral  but  once,  when  I  went  up  to  see 
liow  their  scales  were  set  up.  I  have  only  seen  the  beef  passing  the 
post.  I  never  was  called  upon,  and  had  nothing  to  do  about  it. 

Q.  In  receiving  the  beef  for  the  supply  of  the  post  here,  do  you  receive 
it  from  the  contractor  on  foot  $ 

A.  On  the  block ;  cut  and  weighed  on  the  block. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  the  cattle  come  on  foot  ? 

A.  (),  yes,  sir ;  but  if  the  beef  is  inferior,  we  call  a  board  right  away 
and  condemn  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  what  is  the  average  net  weight 
of  cattle  you  receive  here  ? 

A.  My  butcher  could  give  you  more  information  about  that ;  but  I 
will  say  this  :  I  think  400  pounds  would  be  a  large  estimate  of  the  net 
weight — not  to  exceed  that ;  that  would  be  an  average. 

Q.  As  to  the  character  of  the  beeves  you  get  here,  are  they  as  good 
as  are  usually  got  in  the  country  $  would  they  average  as  large  as  the 
cattle  in  herds  generally  ? 

A.  Well,  they  are  as  large  as  the  average  herds  that  I  have  seen  in 
this  part  of  the  country.  Mr.  Ecoffee  had  the  contract  last  year  for  fur 
nishing  beef  to  the  Army,  and  I  would  say  that  his  cattle  were,  as  far  as 
I  observed,  as  large  as  the  average  cattle.  I  would  say,  with  refer 
ence  to  Texas  cattle,  that  I  do  not  know  anything  about  them.  These 
that  we  get  are  not  Texas  cattle ;  they  are  cattle  that  probably  have 
Texas  blood  in  them,  but  they  are  called  native  cattle.  The  new  con 
tract  was  let  about  a  month  ago.  They  are  a  different  class,  as  far  as  I 
have  observed,  from  these  furnished  to  the  agency. 

Q.  What  is  the  difference  ? 

A.  As  far  as  I  have  observed,  in  the  first  place,  they  cost  more. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Your  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  contract  last  year  was  9f  cents  per  pound  net.  They 
are  fatter  cattle.  1  speak  of  them  merely  from  what  I  have  seen  at  a 
mere  glance  of  the  Indian  cattle  passing  the  post. 


317 

Q.  But  you  judge  that  the  cattle  you  get  here  average  larger? 

A.  Well,  I  would  not  say  that  they  would  average  larger.  I  do  not 
know  what  is  their  average,  but  mine  are  of  a  better  quality  and  fatter 
cattle.  I  have  seen  cattle  that  would  weigh  900  or  1,000  pounds  that 
you  could  not  sell,  and  you  might  take  one  that  weighed  800  pounds  that 
would  be  better  $  one  would  be  lean  and  the  other  fat. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  mean  to  say  that  on  an  average  your  cattle  are 
larger  than  the  cattle  that  go  to  tbe  agency? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  their  cattle  average ;  I  merely  say  that  ours 
are  of  a  better  quality. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  would  you  make  the  average  !  Suppose  the  contract  required 
the  average  weight  to  be  800  pounds  on  foot,  what  weights  would  you 
receive  under  that  contract  ? 

A.  I  would  not  receive  any  under  800  pounds. 

Q.  Suppose  they  averaged  at  least  800  pounds  ? 

A.  Well,  I  would  receive  cattle  this  way  :  Our  contracts  never  read 
that  way,  but  that  it  should  be  good,  merchantable  beef;  the  cattle  have 
to  be  good  quality. 

Q.  But  you  would  receive  good  cattle  of  any  weight,  provided  it  was 
good  beef? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  it  might  weigh  up  to  the  average  and  I  would  not 
receive  it,  because  the  quality  would  be  poor. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  cost  per  100  pounds  for  the  transportation  of 
your  supplies  from  Sidney  here  ? 

A.  I  think  I  have  it  in  my  record.  The  present  cost  is  $1.08  per  100 
pounds  at  this  season.  During  the  winter  it  is  more.  That  is  for  the 
whole  distance,  and  not  per  hundred  miles. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now,  what  is  it  for  the  winter  ? 

A.  I  would  not  be  positive  until  1  examine  my  records,  but  I  think  it 
was  $1.26,  probably  $1.30. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  make  a  contract  for  transportation  ? 

A.  The  contract  is  made  by  the  chief  quartermasters  of  the  depart 
ments,  and  I  am  notified  of  it.  The  freight  is  weighed  at  Sidney  tirst, 
and  then  it  is  weighed  here — that  is,  all  kinds  of  freight  that  should  be 
weighed,  such  as  corn,  oats,  barley,  &c. — and  the  weight  is  certified  to 
by  a  board  of  officers. 

Q.  There  is  no  distinction  made  in  the  cost  of  transportation  per  100 
pounds  between  supplies  and  camp-equipage  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  everything  is  shipped  in  this  way,  and  everything  is  in 
cluded.  If  they  were  going  to  ship  some  peculiar  kind  of  freight  that 
required  extraordinary  care,  there  would  be  some  special  contract  for  it. 

Q.  On  the  occasion  of  the  trouble  at  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  when 
they  attempted  to  raise  the  flag-staff,  you  were  up  there,  1  believe  ? 

A.  I  started  up. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Agent  Saville  there  ? 

A.  The  troops  were  ordered  up  about  1  o'clock  ;  I  think  it  was  the  22d 
of  October.  They  started  at  1  o'clock.  I  think  there  were  twenty 
men.  They  had  been  gone  probably  three  quarters  of  an  hour  or 


318 

an  hour — say  about  an  hour — when  I  "saw  the  mail  corning  into  the 
agency.  I  got  on  my  horse  and  went  up  with  the  mail  (the  post  mail- 
carrier)  after  the  mail.  I  got  to  the  agency;  saw  it  was  surrounded  by 
about,  I  should  judge,  altogether  between  four  and  five  hundred  armed 
Indians,  and  they  were  coming  in  right  lively  from  the  hills  too.  The 
troops  were  inside  the  inclosure,  and  I  found  everything  was  shut  up, 
and  I  could  not  get  in  for  some  little  time.  Finally  I  got  into  Mr.  Deer's 
stockade  or  store  through  a  small  gate,  myself  and  the  mail-carrier. 
We  remained  there  probably  two  or  three  hours,  until  a  number  of  the 
Indians  had  left,  and  then  we  went  over  to  the  agency  stockade  where 
the  troops  were,  and  there  I  saw  Saville. 

Q.  What  did  he  appear  to  be  doing  ! 

A.  He  was  talking  with  parties  generally  and  giving  some  explana 
tion,  I  believe,  about  the  trouble ;  that  he  did  not  expect  any  more  that 
night;  that  he  had  some  friendly  Indians  to  protect  bim,  and  arrange 
ments  were  made  for  the  troops  to  go  back  at  sunset.  It  was  about  that 
time  then.  I  asked  him  what  the  trouble  was.  In  general  conversation 
I  learned  that  he  had  undertaken  to  raise  a  flag-staff,  and  that  the  In 
dians  or  a  number  of  them  claimed  that  that  was  not  a  post ;  that  it 
was  their  place  for  getting  their  supplies ;  and  they  became  aggravated 
that  he  should  want  to  raise  a  flag-staff  and  turn  the  agency  into  what 
seemed  to  them  to  be  a  military  post,  and  remonstrated  ;  and  the  party 
came  into  the  stockade  and  cut  the  flag-staff  in  two,  and  he  sent  for 
troops.  There  were  then  two  small  companies  of  infantry  here  and  about 
half  a  company  of  cavalry. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  he  state  what  he  wanted  to  use  the  flag-staff  for? 

A.  Well,  in  general  conversation  I  heard  this :  that  it  had  some  refer 
ence  to  Sunday  ;  that  he  wanted  to  hoist  a  flag  on  Sunday,  so  that  the 
Indians  would  know  it  was  Sunday.  1  never  heard  any  other  reason 
than  that  given  for  it.  There  may  have  been  some  other  reason,  but  I 
did  not  hear  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  When  you  went  up  there  you  knew  the  troops  had  gone,  but  you 
were  not  informed  of  the  reason  for  taking  them  up  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  knew  they  had  gone,  but  did  not  know  the  reason.  The 
news  at  the  post  was  that  there  was  some  trouble  at  the  agency,  but  what  it 
was  was  not  known,  I  believe,  when  the  troops  left  here.  I  do  not  think 
that  it  was  stated  ;  at  least  1  did  not  hear  what  the  nature  of  the  trouble 
was  until  I  had  started  up  there.  I  suppose  if  it  had  been  known  that 
the  trouble  was  as  great  as  it  was,  of  course  that  number  of  troops  would 
not  have  been  sent  up,  because  the  Indians  were  all  well  armed  ;  and 
while  they  were  not  exactly  at  the  mercy  of  the  Indians,  it  was  a  very 
inadequate  force;  and  it  was  remarkable  that  they  were  not  massacred. 
If  there  had  been  a  shot  fired,  even  accidentally,  probably  the  whole 
party,  or  the  majority  of  them,  would  have  been  killed.  The  Indians 
were  all  well  armed  and  a  great  many  of  them  were  stripped.  I  will 
state  this:  that  some  of  the  efforts  of  the  friendly  Indians,  Sitting  Bull 
and  a  few  others,  probably  had  as  much  if  not  more  influence  to  prevent 
an  outbreak  than  anything  else  that  occurred.  Lieutenant  Crawford 
managed  the  thing  very  coolly.  If  he  had  not  been  just  as  cool  as  he  was, 
probably  he  and  a  good  many  of  his  men  would  have  been  killed. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  occasion  toexamiue  any  of  the  supplies  furnished 
to  the  Indians  at  the  agency? 


319 

A.  Probably  some  three  weeks  ago  the  acting  agent,  Mr.  Gibbons, 
(Dr.  Saville  was  away,)  asked  me  to  look  at  some  corn  that  was  being 
unloaded,  and  some  of  it  was  in  the  store-house.  I  do  not  know  why  he 
asked  me.  I  went  in,  however.  The  sacks  were  torn.  I  took  a  few 
handfuls  of  corn  out  of  a  few  sacks.  Probably  every  third  or  fourth 
sack  was  fair  corn,  and  the  other  was  corn  that  I  would  not  receive  my 
self  to  feed.  Some  of  it  was  rotten,  and  it  looked  to  be  not  fit  for  feed. 
Probably  one-third  of  the  grain  was  rotten,  more  or  less.  I  know  he  re 
marked  at  the  time  that  it  was  a  pretty  bad  lot  of  corn.  He  said  that 
he  did  not  know  why  it  was  shipped  up  here;  that  there  was  no  inspector's 
mark  on  it,  and  that  it  was  shipped  from  Iowa.  Those  are  the  only  sup 
plies  I  have  examined  or  looked  at.  except  seeing  the  Indians  open  the 
pork  and  the  tobacco  they  got,  and  seeing  them  wear  their  blankets  oc 
casionally  around  the  post.  But  I  made  no  special  examination  of  any 
thing  except  the  corn. 

Q.  During  last  fall  or  winter  did  you  notice  at  all  the  character,  for  in 
stance,  of  the  pork  that  was  being  issued  there? 

A.  1  only  saw  it  in  passing  from  one  trader's  store  to  another  as  the 
squaws  were  chopping  the  heads  off  the  barrels  and  taking  away  the 
pork.  I  did  not  take  it  up  and  examine  it.  It  looked  like  good  pork ;  but 
the  test  of  that  would  be  to  examine  it  properly. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  during  last  fall  or  winter  the  coffee  that  was  issued 
there  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  saw  nothing  of  it,  and  know  nothing  except  what  the 
Indians  about  the  post  would  say  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  anything  about  the  flour  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Last  fall  the  troops  would  sometimes  trade  bread  for  In 
dian  flour,  and  would  mix  that  with  our  own  flour.  The  men  were  being 
worked  pretty  hard,  and  probably  the  rations  that  were  issued  at  the 
commissary's  were  not  sufficient,  and  they  would  trade  from  five  to  ten 
loaves  of  bread  for  a  sack  of  Indian  flour,  and  they  would  mix  it  with 
that  issued  to  the  troops.  That  is  all  I  know  with  reference  to  the  flour. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  many  pounds  of  flour  would  it  take  to  make  ten  or  fifteen 
loaves  of  bread  °? 

A.  It  would  probably  take  fifteen  ounces  of  flour  to  make  one  loaf.  The 
gain  in  making  bread  from  flour  is  about  one-third.  Of  course  the  Indians 
were  anxious  to  make  a  trade,  because  they  could  not  make  good  bread.  It 
has  always  been  a  queer  thing  to  me,  something  that  I  could  not  under 
stand,  why  at  these  large  agencies  they  do  not  build  bake-ovens  and 
bake  their  flour,  and  issue  the  bread  to  the  Indians,  the  same  as  we  do 
to  the  troops.  There  is  not  one  Indian,  I  suppose,  in  ten  who  knows 
how  to  make  bread,  so  that  it  would  be  palatable  and  nutritious. 

Q.  Was  the  flour  good  flour  ? 

A.  It  was  not  as  good  flour  as  we  had  ;  it  was  darker ;  but  I  suppose 
it  was  sweet  flour,  or  it  would  have  spoiled  any  bread  that  it  was  put 
into. 

Q.  Is  there  no  regulation  that  forbids  soldiers  from  trading  with  In 
dians! 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  there  is.  Of  course  it  is  not  done  on  any  very 
extensive  scale.  An  Indian  probably  would  trade  his  tobacco  to  a  soldier 
for  a  loaf  of  bread,  or  something  of  that  kind.  It  has  been  mostly  as  an 
individual  matter.  But  on  an  extensive  scale  it  would  be  prohibited. 
It  was  only  to  a  limited  extent,  and  I  do  not  think  it  has  been  done  for 
a  month. 


320 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  pork  there  that  was  unfit  to  be  eaten,  in  your 
judgment? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  noticed  it.  The  Indians  would  say  that  their  to 
bacco  was  bad;  that  it  hurt  their  tongues.  That  I  know.'  It  is  no  such 
grade  of  tobacco  as  is  issued  to  the  troops.  Every  soldier  is  allowed  a 
pound  of  tobacco  at  the  contract-price,  and  it  is  charged  against  his 
pay. 


RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  10,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  ROBERTS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  vicinity  of  Red  Cloud 
agency  ? 

Answer.  I  came  here  on  the  1st  March,  1874. 

Q.  What  have  you  been  doing  since  you  have  been  here  ? 

A.  When  I  first  came  here  I  was  store-keeper  or  issue-clerk  for  the 
agent,  and  afterward  clerk. 

Q.  WTere  you  here  last  fall  and  winter  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  here  as  clerk  up  to  the  latter  part  of  last  December. 

Q.  Then  you  were  here  in  the  agency  during  November  and  December 
of  last  year  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  a  pretty  general  knowledge  of  affairs  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  Well,  what  do  you  mean  by  that  ? 

Q.  I  mean,  for  instance,  about  the  issue  of  supplies.  You  were  part  of 
the  time  issue-clerk.  I  understand  you  issued  the  rations. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  remainder  of  the  time  you  were  clerk — clerk  in  what 
other  department? 

A.  In  the  office,  sir — making  out  the  papers,  where  Mr.  Gibbons  is  now. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  were  here,  did  you,  in  November  and  Decem 
ber,  observe  particularly  the  beef-cattle  which  were  brought  here  for 
delivery  to  the  agency  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  sometimes  I  saw  them  and  sometimes  I  did  not — just  as 
it  happened. 

Q.  You  did  see  some  head  of  cattle  driven  in  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  a  great  many  before  that  time  and  after. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  weighing  of  any  of  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  saw  them  weighed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  cattle  you  saw  weighed  there,  what  did  they  average  ? 

A.  They  went  over  1,000  pounds — those  I  weighed  myself. 

Q.  You  weighed  some  yourself6? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  did. 

Q.  And  they  averaged  over  1,000  pounds  ? 

A.  They  went  over  that. 


By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Do  you  mean  the  averag 
A.  Yes,  sir  $  the  average. 


321 
•el 


By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  then,  in  averaging1  them  did  yon  average  the  whole  lot,  or 
did  you  average  those  that  were  weighed  on  the  scales'? 

A.  No,  sir;  we  weighed  them  all,  and  added  up  the  weights,  and  then 
averaged  them. 

Q.  When  the  scales  were  full  of  cattle  you  weighed  them  without  any 
regard  to  the  number  of  cattle  upon  the  scales  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  The  way  we  weigh  them  is  this :  they  have  a  corral 
composed  of  two  parts,  and  in  one  part  there  is  a  chute  which  leads  into 
one  end  of  the  corral,  and  from  there  the  herders  drive  the  cattle  on  to 
the  scales.  I  will  make  a  diagram  of  it  so  that  you  will  understand  it. 
[Witness  drew  a  diagram  and  explained  it.]  I  weighed  the  cattle  some 
times  and  put  down  the  weight  indicated  by  the  scales,  and  the  man  who 
opened  the  gate  and  let  the  cattle  into  the  corral  from  the  scales  called 
out  the  number  of  cattle,  and  when  they  had  passed  through  the  scales 
into  the  corral  they  were  considered  as  delivered  to  the  agent. 

Q.  Now,  In  making  up  this  average,  you  took  the  number  of  cattle 
called  off  by  the  man  who  opened  the  gate? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  the  herder  counted  them  afterward,  and  if  there 
was  any  difference  we  recounted  them. 

Q.  But  in  making  up  your  average  you  made  it  from  the  weights  in 
dicated  by  the  scales  and  from  the  numbers  called  out  by  the  man  at 
the  gate ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  if  there  were  ten  cattle  on  the  scales,  and  the  scales  indicated 
6,000  pounds,  and  he  should  call  off  to  you  six  cattle,  you  would  put 
down  six.  of  course  ? 

A.  There  was  nothing  of  that  kind  occurred  there  to  my  knowledge 
and  belief. 

Q.  Were  there  not  sometimes  some  calves  and  yearlings  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  were  sometimes. 

Q.  Did  not  they  get  on  to  the  scales,  too  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  counted  by  the  man  at  the  gate  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  not  their  weight  included? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  was. 

Q.  Have  you  some  knowledge  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  seen  a  good  many  Army  cattle,  and  have  assisted 
in  receiving  some. 

Q.  The  cattle  that  were  delivered  to  the  agency  under  your  observa 
tion,  were  they  generally  large  and  good  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  better  than  a  good  many  Army  cattle  that  I 
have  seen. 

Q.  Were  they  composed  of  both  steers  and  cows  1 

A.  Some  cows ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  the  cows  average  in  weight  as  much  as  the  steers  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  Some  of  the  cows  were  good  large  cows,  and  a  few 
would  come  up  in  size  to  the  steers,  and  of  course  some  were  smnller. 

Q.  About  what  was  the  proportion  of  cows  to  steers  in  the  herds  that 
you  saw  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.     I  did  not  think  bf  it. 
21  I  F 


322 

Q.  Were  you  here  at  tbe  issue  of  annuity-goods  in  November  last  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  was. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  many  bales  of  blankets  were  issued  then  ? 

A.  I  made  out  1,850  pairs  on  the  receipt. 

Q.  Do  you  know  about  how  many  pairs  there  are  in  a  bale  f 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  the  bales. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  verified  the  bills  of  lading  by  the 
goods  when  they  were  received  here  ? 

A.  The  agent  received  them  himself;  he  was  very  particular  about  it, 
and  received  them  himself. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing  during  that  time  the  quality  of  flour 
which  was  issued  at  the  agency? 

A.  No  further  than  when  our  cook  would  pick  out  some  for  the  mess,  and 
he  was  a  very  good  judge  of  flour,  and  he  would  say  some  was  good 
and  some  was  very  bad.  I  cannot  say  I  am  a  good  judge  of  flour  myself. 

Q.  In  your  mess  did  you  use  flour  from  the  agency  store-house — the 
same  kind  of  flour  that  was  issued  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  some  sacks  were  better  and  some  were  worse.  The  cook 
picked  them  out. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  grumbling  among  the  Indians,  or  by  anybody 
else,  as  to  the  quality  of  that  flour  ! 

A.  Not  particularly.  Occasionally  there  would  be  a  poor  sack  of  flour, 
but  I  cannot  call  to  mind  any  particular  grumbling  on  the  part  of  any 
body  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  noticing,  in  November  and  December,  the  kind 
of  coffee  that  was  issued  here  ? 

A.  It  was  ordinary  coffee,  that  is,  good  coffee,  so  that  we  used  it  in  our 
mess. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  particular  grumbling  in  your  mess  about  the 
quality  of  the  coffee  ? 

A.  Well,  we  bought  other  coffee  because  we  preferred  it — it  was  better; 
but,  at  the  same  time,  when  we  used  any  of  our  rations,  we  did  not  con 
sider  it  bad  at  all.  We  were  entitled  to  rations  from  the  agent. 

Q.  How  about  the  sugar  wrhich  you  had  there  at  that  time J? 

A.  That  was  very  brown,  very  dark.  We  used  it,  but  we  bought 
most  of  the  sugar  we  used.  It  was  a  very  inferior  article  of  sugar,  I 
think. 

Q.  But  was  it  so  inferior  as  that  it  was  not  fit  for  use  ? 

A.  It  would  sweeten,  but  it  was  very  dark.  It  wras  what  they  call 
crude.  It  was  sweet,  but  heavy  and  very  brown. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  the  sugar  they  are  distributing  here  now? 

A.  Yes.  sir.  The  sugar  they  are  distributing  now  is  very  superior  to 
that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  manner  of  giving  receipts  for  freight 
that  was  brought  here,  how  that  was  done  by  the  agent1? 

A.  As  I  understand  it,  the  freight-contractor  would  load  the  train  with 
goods  and  send  it  up  here,  and  when,  for  instance,  five  or  six  trains  or  two 
or  three  trains  would  come  here  with  goods  and  be  received,  the  agent 
would  make  him  out  a  consolidated  bill  for  the  two  or  three  trains  and 
receipt  to  him  for  so  many  pounds  of  freight. 

Q.  How  did  the  agent  come  to  know  just  what  was  contained  in  the 
wagons  ? 

A.  We  checked  it  off'  at  the  warehouse.  We  had  a  bill  of  lading  sent 
with  the  goods  from  Cheyenne.  Say  there  would  be  four  trains.  No.  1 
would  have  his  bill  of  lading,  and  there  would  be  a  bill  of  lading  sent  to 
the  agent ;  and  so  also  would  Nt).  2,  No.  3,  and  No.  4  have  a  bill,  and 


323 

sometimes  I  received  some  of  them,  and  the  freighter  would  check  it  and 
I  would  check  it. 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  you  would  take  the  bill  of  lading  sent  by 
the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne  and  verify  it  by  the  contents  of  the  wagons, 
and  see  that  the  wagons  contained  what  the  bill  of  lading  called  for. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  about  the  issue  of  some  pork  to  the  Indians 
here  last  fall? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  saw  several  issues  of  pork. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  kind  of  pork  that  was? 

A.  It  was  very  inferior. 

Q.  Was  it  so  spoiled  that  it  was  not  fit  for  use  ? 

A.  It  was  kind  of  thin  and  flaccid.  I  do  not  know  what  was  the  mat 
ter  with  it  besides  that.  It  did  not  taste  good.  It  was  not  good  pork. 
The  agent  wrote  about  it  several  times  to  know  what  he  should  do  with 
it.  That  correspondence  is  all  on  file. 

Q,  He  complained  that  the  pork  was  not  of  good  quality  ? 

A.  He  represented  just  what  it  was.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  wrote  him  with  Deference  to  it,  and  told  him  if  it  was  inferior  to 
look  into  it  and  notify  him,  and  the  agent  did  so.  There  was  some  cor 
respondence  about  it,  but  I  cannot  recollect  the  particulars  without 
referring  to  it.  I  know  that  it  was  a  very  poor  article,  and  the  agent 
excepted  to  it  and  wrote  to  the  Commissioner  about  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  it  really  of  much  service  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  The  Indians  do  not  like  pickled  pork  anyhow. 

Q.  If  they  did,  would  that  pork  be  of  much  service  to  them  ? 

A.  Well,  it  would  kind  of  keep  off  hunger,  I  suppose,  but  it  was  not 
a  good  article. 

Q.  I  would  like  you  to  say  whether  or  not  it  must  have  been  a  great 
loss  to  the  Government  to  furnish  the  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  would  have  been  better  for  the  Government  to  have 
issued  lard  or  bacon.  A  great  proportion  of  that  pork  was  wasted  by 
the  Indians.  They  would  cut  off  a  little  piece  of  fat  and  throw  the  rest 
away.  I  do  not  recollect  seeing  any  without  brine  and  with  an  offensive 
smell. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  are  not  in  any  way  connected  with  the  agency  now? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  am  clerking  for  the  trader  here,  keeping  his  books. 
That  is  not  being  connected  with  the  agency,  however. 

Q.  Mr.  Koberts,  you  seem  to  me  to  be  a  man  of  intelligence,  and  capa 
ble  of  forming  a  correct  judgment  about  a  matter.  We  would  like  to 
have  your  opinion,  so  far  as  your  observation  extended,  about  the 
general  management  and  conduct  of  affairs  on  the  part  of  the  agent 
here;  whether  he  evinced  a  disposition  and  ability  to  do  for  the  Indians 
the  best  that  could  be  done  with  the  supplies  which  were  furnished  him. 

A.  I  think  he  tried  to  do  so,  sir. 

Q.  You  saw  nothing  that  produced  a  different  impression  on  you  mind 
as  to  his  objects  and  intentions  toward  them  ? 

A.  His  intentions  I  always  said  were  to  do  what  was  right.  There 
may  be  a  difference  of  opinion  on  the  part  of  some.  I  do  not  think  he 
has  had  as  much  experience  as  a  great  many  men,  and  in  endeavoring 
all  the  time  to  do  just  what  was  right  he  probably  was  a  little  too  strin 
gent  with  the  Indians.  I  think  he  was  rather  too  strict,  a  little  more  so 
than  Indians  like,  and  he  would  talk  to  them  a  little  too  much,  and  allow 


324 

them  to  keep  talking  to  him  and  bothering  him.  "  Familiarity  breeds 
contempt,"  and  that  is  particularly  true  with  these  Indians.  An  agent 
should  talk  with  the  chiefs  only,  and  not  with  every  young  man  that  comes 
around  j  but  he  endeavored  to  listen  and  talk  to  them  all,  and  to  right 
their  wrongs,  or  their  imaginary  wrongs,  and  of  course  he  would  tell  them 
that  he  would  explain  all  to  the  Great  Father,  and  all  that,  and  a  great 
many  instances  which  he  had  no  control  over  and  nothing  at  all  to  do 
with.  It  would,  however,  puzzle  any  man  to  answer  some  of  the  ques 
tions  the  Indians  would  ask.  Instead  of  talking  with  the  chiefs  only,  I 
think  he  talked  too  much  with  every  little  family  or  band  that  had  any 
grievance  to  offer. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  by  the  name  of  Stover  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  was  an  employe  here  at  the  mill  last  June.  He  is 
here  now  putting  in  hay  for  Mr.  Yates.  Stover  is  a  man  who  talks  a 
great  deal. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  were  clerk  on  the  14th  Novem 
ber,  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  occasion  of  his  visit  here  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  distinct  or  particular  recollection  of  the  issue  of 
cattle  which  took  place  at  the  time  Professor  Marsh  was  here,  viz, 
the  14th  November  ? 

A.  I  have  a  recollection  of  not  having  issued  to  the  Indians  on  the  reg 
ular  (lay,  for  the  reason  that  we  were  counting  them,  and  the  agent  told 
them  that  he  would  not  issue  until  they  were  counted.  We  had  been 
in  the  habit  of  issuing  every  ten  days,  because  the  Indians  preferred  that 
way.  He  changed  the  issue  from  every  seven  days  to  every  ten  days 
at  their  request.  They  wanted  to  get  more  beef  and  sugar  and  every 
thing  else  at  one  issue.  The  regular  issue  ought  to  have  been  on  the 
llth.  I  made  no  note  of  it,  but  I  think  the  cattle  were  two  or  three 
days  behind  time,  and  the  Indians  were  very  anxious  for  the  beef — which 
was  issued  to  them  as  soon  as  it  was  received,  part  of  it  that  day  and 
part  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Have  you  such  a  distinct  recollection  of  the  cattle  issued  the  14th 
November  as  will  enable  you  to  state  what  was  their  size  and  quality  ? 

A.  I  did  not  notice  anything  unusually  out  of  the  way  with  them. 

Q.  Was  it  at  that  time  your  duty  as  clerk  to  weigh  those  cattle"? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  either  the  agent  or  myself  did  so. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  it  was  you  or  the  agent  that  weighed 
them  ? 

A.  I  think  he  weighed  them  and  issued  part  of  them,  and  I  finished 
the  issue  the  next  morning.  A  good  many  of  the  Indians  were  going 
on  a  hunt,  and  they  thronged  the  office  the  next  day  and  the  day  follow 
ing,  and  were  given  a  little  extra  rations  all  around  to  start  them  off. 
They  demanded  the  rations,  and  there  was  quite  a  lot  of  them  around 
here.  They  objected  to  the  counting,  and  were  dissatisfied  about  it. 
There  had  been  a  good  deal  of  feeling  over  the  matter,  and  the  Indians 
did  not  feel  very  pleasant,  and  rather  blamed  the  agent  for  withholding 
the  rations  for  two  or  three  days.  While  they  were  being  counted,  some 
of  them  wanted  to  go  off  on  a  hunt,  and  they  demanded  a  little  more 
rations.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  feeling,  and  the  situation  was  rather 
dangerous. 

Q.  Have  you  a  sufficiently  clear  recollection  of  that  issue  of  cattle  on 


325 

the  14th  November  to  state  now  what,  in  your  judgment  and  opinion 
was  the  average  weight  of  the  cattle  1 

A.  Those  which  I  saw  issued  the  next  morning  I  should  judge  to  be 
the  same  kind  of  cattle  which  I  had  weighed  before  myself. 

Q.  Weighing  about  how  much  ? 

A.  A  thousand  pounds  and  over.  The  exact  figures  I  do  not  recollect, 
but  I  can  tell  by  looking  at  the  receipts.  I  did  not  see  all  of  them,  only 
part  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Are  you  in  the  habit  of  preserving  in  your  office  a  record  of  the 
weight  of  these  cattle  ? 

A.  The  number  of  pounds  I  add  up  and  immediately  enter  on  the 
book. 

Q.  You  mean  the  gross  amount  ? 

A.   5Tes,  sir;  the  gross  amount. 

Q.  There  is  no  account  taken  of  the  weight  of  each  separate  head 
of  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  sometimes  four,  or  five,  or  six,  or  eight  head  go  in  the 
scales  at  once,  and  the  number  of  head  is  added  up  to  the  gross  weight — 
so  many  head  and  so  many  pounds — and  that  is  immediately  entered  in 
the  book. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  As  I  understand  you,  you  say  there  were  calves  and  yearlings 
weighed  ? 

A.  Well,  calves,  no  :  calves  never  went  in.  By  calves  I  mean  cattle 
about  six  weeks  old.  The  Indians  always  got  hold  of  them.  They  very 
seldom  got  on  the  scales,  but  some  yearlings  did. 

Q.  You  say  there  were  yearlings  weighed  which  were  not  counted, 
but  whose  weight  was  included.  Now,  there  were  cattle  of  various  sizes 
and  ages,  from  a  year  old  up  to  five  and  six  years.  The  question  is 
this,  whether  by  that  system  cattle  would  not  get  in,  or  did  get  in  and 
were  weighed,  which,  taken  by  themselves,  could  not  be  reckoned  as 
merchantable  beef. 

A.  I  do  not  think  you  could  call  yearlings  merchantable  beef.  Their 
weight  was  taken,  but  they  were  not  counted  at  all.  They  were  good 
beef,  though,  because  they  were  tender,  but,  at  the  same  time,  I  would 
not  think  of  shipping  yearlings  to  the  Chicago  market. 

Q.  Beef  that  would  weigh  on  the  hoof  less  than  500  pounds,  would 
you  call  that  merchantable  beef  in  the  market  ? 

A.  Well,  no ;  not  500  pounds,  because  you  could  not  sell  a  lot  of  cat 
tle  averaging  500  pounds  in  any  beef-market  as  merchantable  beef ; 
but  stock-men  would  buy  them. 

Q.  Could  you,  in  any  market  you  know  of,  sell  cattle  weighing  less 
than  500  pounds  as  merchantable  beef? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  were  speaking  just  now  of  the  issue  of  cattle  on  November  14. 
You  spoke  of  the  cattle  as  having  come  in  a  little  late.  Do  you  re 
member  anything  about  who  drove  them  here  ? 

A.  Mr.  Bosler  and  his  herders,  I  believe. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  distinctly  whether  either  of  the  Messrs.  Bosler 
were  here  at  the  time  ? 

A.  I  think  Mr.  George  Bosler  was  here  at  the  time  ;  I  am  tolerably 
certain  he  was. 

Q.  Is  there  any  circumstance  by  which  you  can  recall  it  to  a  certainty? 


326 

A.  No ;  I  do  not  remember  anything  unusual  about  it,  but  I  have  no 
doubt  be  was  bere. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  saying  anything  about  his  having  to  over 
drive  them  to  get  them  here  I 

A.  No,  sir  5  nor  any  one  else. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  about  Mr.  Bosler,  or  any  one  else  con 
nected  with  the  driving  of  them,  apologizing  for  the  poor  condition  of 
the  cattle  on  the  ground  that  they  were  obliged  to  hurry  them  to  get 
them  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  ever  made  that  statement  * 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  remember  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  that  such  has  sometimes  been  the  fact  ? 

A.  I  know  last  winter  the  men  started  to  drive  some  cattle  up  here 
which  got  away  from  them  for  two  or  three  days.  They  went  after 
them  again,  and  I  think  it  was  the  fourth  day  before  they  succeeded  in 
getting  them  here,  but  it  was  very  cold  weather  then. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  those  cattle  when  they  came  in  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  them. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  the  agency  herd  to  be  stampeded  ? 

A.  There  were  some  lost  here  last  fall  in  that  way,  after  they  were 
received. 

Q.  About  what  time  last  fall  ? 

A.  It  was  some  time  in  September. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  The  herder  came  down  and.  reported  to  the  agent  that  they  were 
lost.  The  agent  was  very  much  vexed  because  the  herder  did  not  find 
it  out  for  a  day  or  two,  and  he  told  him  to  find  them  and  drive  them  in. 
He  said  it  was  impossible  they  could  be  lost,  there  were  so  many  of 
them. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  ? 

A.  I  think  about  200  or  over.  The  agent  asked  him  to  go  out  and 
find  them  and  bring  them  back.  He  did  so,  and  came  back  and  re 
ported  that  his  opinion  was  that  they  had  gone  into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd. 

Q.  Where  they  would  naturally  go  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  the  agent  told  Mr.  Bosler  he  would  have  to  return 
the  number  of  head  that  were  lost,  and  Mr.  Bosler  said  he  would  return 
him  all  the  cattle  he  found  belonging  to  the  agency  which  had  gone  into 
his  herd.  He  set  some  men  on  the  trail,  and  they  had  some  difference 
of  opinion  on  the  matter.  Finally  Mr.  Bosler  returned  him  150  head, 
and  said  that,  in  his  opinion,  that  was  all.  The  agent  did  not  drop  the 
difference.  He  still  carried  them  in  his  papers  into  the  fourth  quarter. 

Q.  Did  he  still  continue  to  hunt  for  the  remaining  50,  or  did  he  rest 
on  the  conclusion  that  they  had  gone  into  the  herd  ? 

A.  He  made  careful  search,  and,  I  think,  a  few  more  were  found. 
The  herder's  statement  sets  that  forth  particularly,  and  it  was  forwarded 
to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  What  means  did  the  herder  employ,  or  what  means  had  he  of  dis 
tinguishing  these  cattle  which  had  stampeded  1'rom  the  agency  herd,  and 
gone  back  into  Bosler's  herd  ? 

A.  All  I  know  is  that  he  went  on  the  track,  and  that  he  would  tell 
them  by  their  looking  gaunt,  and  where  they  were  scouring. 


327 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Roberts,  how  did  it  happen  that  after  having  been  seven  or 
eight  months  acting  as  clerk  for  the  agent,  you  ceased  to  act  in  that  ca 
pacity  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  did  not  wish  to  clerk  any  more.  I  did  not  wish  to  re 
main  any  longer,  and  I  quit. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Koberts,  I  would  like  to  inquire  of  you  about  some  other 
matters.  Do  you  know  of  any  Indian  supplies  being  taken  to  the  tra 
der's  store  and  sold  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not.  I  heard  some  talk  about  it,  and  saw  some  let 
ters  in  the  newspapers  about  it. 

Q.  You  never  knew  anything  of  it  yourself  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not,  no  more  than  hearsay. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  Dr.  Saville's  borrowing  from.;  the  trader 
some  two  barrels  of  sugar,  or  any  other  quantity  of  sugar,  and  after 
ward  returning  it  to  him  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  any  thing  of  that  kind.  There  was  some  sugar, 
I  think,  returned  at  one  time  to  the  trader.  I  think  it  was  returned  to 
him  for  an  amount  of  sugar  which  the  agent  had  got  from  him  to  make 
a  feast  for  the  Indians.  I  do  not  remember  the  quantity.  I  know  it  was 
not  a  great  deal.  It  was  during  the  time  the  commission  was  here  last 
summer  talking  about  the  settlement  of  the  Eepublican  country.  The 
agent  had  to  make  a  feast  for  the  Indians,  and  he  procured  some  sugar 
from  one  of  the  traders  and  returned  it  to  him  afterward. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  Indian  goods  being  sold  at  the  agency 
by  the  traders,  or  by  the  agent,  or  by  anybody  else  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  Indian  goods  being  sold  for  less  than 
what  the  freight  would  cost  to  move  them  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  know  of  any  Indian  goods  being  sold. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  Agent  Saville's  receipting  for  five  or  six 
thousand  pounds  or  any  other  quantity  of  beef  that  was  never  delivered, 
during  the  months  of  July  and  August,  1874  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  his  receipting  to  Mr.  McCann  for  1,500 
pounds  of  freight  which  was  never  shipped  ?  Have  you  got  in  your  pos 
session,  or  did  you  ever  have  in  your  possession,  any  papers  showing  that 
Dr.  Saville  had  done  any  of  these  things  ? 

A.  No.  sir,  I  did  not. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  his  giving  receipts  for  more  beef  than  he  re 
ceived  J? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  to  my  knowledge.  He  receipted  for  just  what  he  re 
ceived,  so  far  as  I  know. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Something  has  been  said  in  some  of  the  papers  we  have  concern 
ing  Dr.  Saville's  having  made  a  contract  with  Mr.  McCann  for  the  pur 
chase  of  some  oxen,  I  think,  and  issuing  receipts  for  them,  when  none 
were  ever  received. 

A.  I  know  nothing  of  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  a  correspondence  which  took  place 
between  Dr.  Saville  and  the  Indian  Department  upon  that  subject  ? 

A.  The  agent  wrote  some  time  during  the  summer,  when  Inspector 


328 

Bevier  was  here,  and  be  asked  me  some  questions  about  it,  and  I  told 
him  I  knew  nothing  more  of  it  than  the  agent's  letter  contained. 

Q.  You  know  that  the  oxen  were  never  purchased  ? 

A.  Well,  they  were  finally  purchased.  I  do  not  know  but  that  they 
were  purchased  at  that  time,  although  they  were  not  here.  The  agept 
said  he  had  purchased  them,  and  that  they  were  en  route. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  anything  about  it  personally  ? 

A.  No  more  than  there  is  in  his  letter  to  the  Commissioner. 

Q.  Have  you  known  freighters  to  buy  their  supplies  of  flour  or  corn 
at  any  time  from  the  Indians  or  the  squaw-men  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  heard  it  ? 

A.  Well,  these  men  around  here  have  had  more  flour  on  hand  than 
they  wanted  to  use  ;  but  I  do  not  know  of  any  supplies  of  flour  or  any 
thing  of  that  kind  in  the  possession  of  these  men  having  been  sold. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Randall's  having  a  large  quantity  in  his  house? 

A.  I  think  I  do,  but  the  Indians  laid  it  up  for  him. 

Q.  Is  he  a  squaw-man  ? 

A.  He  has  an  Indian  family. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  his  selling  to  the  freighters  goods  which  had  been 
shipped  to  the  Indians  I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  it  not  been  said  among  you  that  such  things  have  happened  ? 

A.  We  have  had  no  understanding  of  that  kind. 

Q.  You  have  not  heard  it  9 

A.  I  may  have  heard  it,  but  I  cannot  call  it  to  mind.  The  men  who 
come  here  generally  have  enough  to  last  them  during  the  journey  back. 
I  have  seen  them  go  into  the  trader's  stores  and  buy  supplies,  but  I  do 
not  know  of  any  particular  transaction  with  squaw-men  or  anything  of 
that  kind. 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Wednesday,  August  11,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATIIERTON,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

Mr.  JAMES  EGBERTS  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Eoberts,  some  questions  have  arisen  in  regard  to  some 
provisions,  &c.,  which  were  said  to  have  passed  from  the  warehouse  to 
Mr.  Walter's  store  at  the  time  when  you  were  the  clerk.  Do  you  know 
anything  about  it  ? 

Answer.  I  will  say  just  what  I  said  last  night.  There  was  some  stuff 
got  of  the  trader  by  the  agent  at  the  time  the  commissioners  were  here 
to  treat  for  the  relinquishment  of  the  right  to  hunt  on  the  Eepublican, 
which  the  agent  promised  to  return.  He  wanted  these  things  to  make 
a  feast  for  the  Indians.  The  provisions  consisted  of  sugar,  rice,  and 
some  other  articles — brown  sugar;  and  I  don't  know  but  what  there 
was  some  coffee.  He  said  he  had  no  funds  to  pay  for  them,  but  would 
return  them  in  kind  when  they  came ;  and  he  did  so. 

Q.  Did  he  return  all  kinds  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  all  returned  in  sugar. 

Q.  Will  you  tell,  as  near  as  you  can,  how  much  sugar  was  returned  ? 

A.  I  think  one  or  two  barrels;  not  more  than  two.  I  was  in  the 
office,  and  he  told  me  to  see  that  it  was  returned,  and  I  directed  Mr. 


329 

Tibbets,  who  was  then  acting  as  store-keeper,  to  return  it,  and  he  did 
so.  It  did  not  exceed  two  barrels  of  sugar. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  Oliver  Appleton  then  the  commissary  ? 

A.  He  was  appointed  soon  after.     Mr.  Tibbets  was  there  at  the  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  blue  cloth  from  the  agency  going  into  the 
hands  of  "the  trader? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  cease  to  be  the  agency  clerk  ? 

A.  Last  September.  So  far  as  I  knew,  no  blue  Indian  cloth  was  ever 
transferred  to  the  trader  on  any  occasion.  I  know  nothing  about  it ; 
never  heard  of  it  before.  Mr.  Walters  was  trader  at  the  time  of  the 
sugar  transaction,  and  so  was  Mr.  Deer ;  and  some  was  returned  to  him 
at  the  same  time — a  small  quantity.  Several  reports  of  this  kind  have 
appeared  in  the  newspapers,  but  I  knew  nothing  of  such  transactions. 
I  would  have  been  likely  to  know  if  they  had  occurred,  because  I  was  in 
the  warehouse.  And  I  don't  believe  that  such  an  exchange  was  ever 
made  as  is  stated  in  the  papers. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  of  the  j>ersons  in  charge  of  the  goods  in  the 
warehouse  ever  taking  the  goods  out  and  selling  them  ? 

A.  Ko,  sir.  I  was  accused  of  doing  so,  and  Mr.  Appleton  was  accused 
of  it,  by  Mr.  Stover,  who  wrote  it  up  for  the  Omaha  Herald  and  the 
Cheyenne  papers.  I  paid  no  attention  to  it,  because  I  did  not  feel  in 
terested  enough  in  it  to  do  so.  I  did  not  think  it  worth  while. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  17,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
HOWE,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Mr.  JAMES  EGBERTS  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  were  here  about  the  time  of  the  last  issue  of  annuity-goads, 
I  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  a  piece  of  Indian  cloth  that  went  from 
the  agency  to  the  trader's  store  ? 

A.  I  know  of  a  piece  of  cloth  that  was  issued  to-Ked  Cloud  as  his  private 
annuity.  He  claimed,  as  chief,  that  he  ought  to  have  a  little  extra,  as 
is  customary  to  give  them,  and  he  told  the  agent  he  would  like  his  to 
be  in  the  shape  of  a  piece  of  blue  cloth.  Wheji  you  asked  me  the  other 
evening  if  I  knew  of  any  cloth  being  issued  or  being  stolen,  I  did  not 
think,  but  I  recollect  now  that  there  was  this  piece  given  to  Bed  Cloud  ; 
and  if  there  was  any  Indian  cloth  taken  to  the  trader's  store  it  was 
that  piece.  He  took  it  down  and  gave  'it  to  Mr.  Walters,  the  trader, 
for  something  which  he  had  gotten  from  him.  The  cloth  was  issued  to 
Bed  Cloud,  as  he  wanted  his  annuities  as  chief  in  that  extra  piece  of 
cloth,  and  the  agent  told  me  to  give  it  to  him.  I  did  so;  and  he 
wanted  me  to  carry  it  for  him.  I  would  not  do  it;  and  he  then  gave 
it  to  a  Mexican,  and  they  both  went  off  together.  I  never  saw  that 
piece  of  cloth  afterward  in  the  store,  and  if  I  had  I  would  not  have 
noticed  it  particularly.  1  do  not  know  how  large  the  bolt  was.  It 
was  double  width,  and  the  kind  of  cloth  they  usually  issue  to  the  In 
dians  for  leggings. 


330 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Yon  understood  at  the  time  that  Red.  Cloud  intended  to  sell  that 
cloth  to  Mr.  Walters  ? 

Q.  Well,  he  said  that  he  intended  to  sell  it  to  Mr.  Walters  for  some 
thing  he  owed  in  a  former  transaction  which  he  had  with  Mr.  Walters, 
and  that  would  settle  it.  I  was  assisting  the  agent  at  the  time,  and  I 
don't  know  that  he  told  the  agent  what  he  wanted  it  for.  I  don't  re 
member  that  Red  Cloud  told  the  agent  that  he  intended  to  give  it  to 
Mr.  Walters.  They  sell  blue  cloth  at  the  trader's  store  all  the  time,  and 
very  probably  Red  Cloud  had  gotten  some  of  it  from  him,  and  he  wanted 
to  pay  it  back  in  the  same  kind  $  that  is  what  I  understood  about  it  at 
the  time.  I  told  the  agent  about  this,  and  he  said  he  (lid  not  care  what 
he  did  with  it,  as  he  was  entitled  to  the  blue  cloth  and  wanted  it ;  he 
might  do  as  he  pleased  with  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  cloth  being  sold  at  the  trader's  ? 

A.  I  know  nothing  of  any  other  blue  cloth  going  to  the  trader's  store 
besides  that. 

[Dr.  Saville,  the  agent,  explained  here,  that  he  was  told  something 
about  this  matter,  but  he  paid  no  attention  to  it,  as  he  supposed  it  was 
the  same  blue  cloth  he  had  given  to  Red  Cloud.] 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  habit  of  the  Indians  selling  their 
flour  ? 

A.  I  believe  they  are  in  the  habit  of  taking  it  around  to  the  white 
men  and  leaving  it  with  them,  and  selling  it  to  some  of  them,  and  giv 
ing  it  to  some  of  them  for  almost  nothing.  I  cannot  say  if  they  have 
sold  it  to  the  traders.  I  have  never  seen  any  of  the  traders  having  flour 
for  sale.  I  never  knew  of  one  of  the  traders  taking  it.  They  (the 
Indians)  may  have  a  few  sacks  ahead  ;  they  don't  eat  it  like  sugar  and 
bacon,  and  they  may  sell  it,  but  I  have  never  seen  any  of  it  sold. 


Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  the  agent,  being  asked  what  was  the  usual  amount 
of  extra  goods  given  to  the  chiefs,  said :  That  matter  is  merely  in  the 
diseretion  of  the  agent.  The  chiefs  have  many  friends  come  to  see 
them,  and  they  (the  chiefs)  are  in  the  habit  of  giving  them  goods  and 
rations,  so  as  to  keep  up  their  influence  among  their  people.  And  this 
is  one  of  the  most  difficult  questions  the  agent  has  to  deal  with.  The 
Indian  people  insist  that  the  chiefs  have  these  extra  rations  and  goods. 
But  it  is  now  being  gradually  broken  down.  I  generally  give  the  chiefs 
about  double  rations,  and  sometimes  three  rations,  if  they  have  a  small 
family.  At  a  council  last  year  the  men  requested  me  to  keep  back  a 
certain  amount  for  the  chiefs.  I  did  so,  but  the  chiefs  were  dissatisfied 
with  the  amount  which  I  gave  to  Red  Cloud.  Last  year  when  we  is 
sued  the  goods  they  agreed  that  the  chief  should  receive  his  share  from 
the  agent.  I  told  them  it  was  better  for  them  to  fix  the  amount  they 
should  give  the  chief,  and  they  said  they  wanted  the  agent  to  do  it, 
and  they  told  me  to  allow  Red  Cloud  a  share,  and  I  gave  him  that  piece 
of  cloth. 


331 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  10,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  F.  D.  YATES. 

P>y  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  business  here,  Mr.  Yates  ? 

Answer.  Indian  trader. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here  ? 

A.  I  have  been  here  as  Indian  trader  since  the  16th  April  of  this  year. 

Q.  Were  you  here  before  that  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  been  connected  with  the  Spotted  Tail  agency 
since  the  agencies  were  established. 

Q.  Were  you  here  last  November  and  December  ? 

A.  I  was  either  here  or  at  Spotted  Tail  agency.     I  think  I  was  here. 

Q.  Were  you  here  at  the  time  Professor  Marsh  was  here,  when  he  was 
going  up  after  bones  ? 

A.  I  was  not. 

Q.  Were  you  here  when  he  came  back  ? 

A.  I  was  not.    I  saw  him  at  Cheyenne  before  he  came  here. 
..  Q.  Were  you  here  during  last  winter  ? 

A.  I  was  here  a  number  of  times  during  last  winter. 

Q.  When  you  were  here,  did  you  observe  the  kind  of  rations  that 
were  being  issued  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Not  particularly  those  that  were  issued  here.  I  saw  those  that 
were  issued  at  Spotted  Tail,  and  I  understood  that  they  were  the  same 
kind,  and  came  from  the  same  contractor 

Q.  Do  you  remember  observing  the  flour,  either  here  or  at  Spotted 
Tail,  which  was  issued  last  winter  ? 

A.  I  remember  seeing  a  good  deal  of  it. 

Q.  What  kind  of  flour  was  it  ? 

A,  It  struck  me  as  being  a  very  fair  article  of  flour.  I  have  seen 
some  a  good  deal  worse,  and  some  better. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  much  of  it  with  any  particularity  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did  examine  a  good  deal  of  it.  The  Indians  were  leav 
ing  it  in  my  store.  They  would  store  it  in  there  after  drawing  it,  before 
taking  it  home,  and  I  saw  a  good  deal  of  it.  They  would  leave  it  there 
until  they  would  have  an  opportunity  to  take  it  to  their  lodges. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  observe  any  of  that  flour,  that  was  not  fit  to  make 
bread  of? 

A.  I  never  saw  any  which  was  unfit  to  use. 

Q.  Did  vou  ever  notice  the  kind  of  coffee  that  was  issued  last  win 
ter  I 

A.  I  saw  some  of  the  coffee  and  used  some  of  it;  in  fact  drank  it  all 
winter. 

Q.  What. kind  of  coffee  was  it? 

A.  It  was  very  good  coffee.     WTe  used  it  in  our  mess  all  winter. 

Q.  Was  it  the  kind  of  coffee  you  buy  to  sell  to  white  people  ? 

A.  It  was  as  good  as  I  am  selling  to  the  Indians.  WTe  had  no  sale 
for  coffee  to  them  last  winter,  or  in  fact  to  any  one.  We  did  not  keep 
it.  The  Indians  had  plenty  and  we  had  no  sale  for  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  Bed  Cloud  or  lied  Dog  talk  about  the  sample 
of  coffee  they  gave  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  I  heard  Eed  Dog  tell  Pallarday  that  they  picked  the  coffee  of 


332 

which  they  gave  a  sample  to  Professor  Marsh  out  of  quite  a  quantity, 
and  they  picked  the  worst  grains  the}'  coiUd  find.  They  picked,  as  he 
said,  all  the  black  grains. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.     When  was  this  ? 

A.  I  think  about  a  mouth  ago.     I  do  not  recollect  positively. 

Q.  Since  Professor  Marsh's  statement  has  become  known  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  occasion  of  it  was  I  was  reading  the  papers,  and 
Red  Dog  was  in  my  store.  I  turned  round  and  asked  Pallarday  to  ask 
him  if  he  gave  these  samples  ;  and,  if  so,  why  he  did  it,  and  he  told 
Pallarday  that  he  picked  them  out  of  the  black  grains  of  coffee  and 
gave  them  to  Professor  Marsh  out  of  quite  a  quantity.  I  asked  him 
why  he  did  it,  and  he  said  he  did  it  because  Professor  Marsh  asked  him 
for  it.  That  was  all  I  asked  him. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  Indian  supplies  being  sold  by  the 
agent  to  traders  or  anybody  else  ? 

A.  I  never  knew  or  heard  of  any. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  the  Indians  selling  a  good  deal  of  flour  to 
freighters,  or  anybody  else  ? 

A.  I  never  knew  of  their  selling  to  freighters,  but  they  occasionally 
sell  flour  to  some  white  men  who  are  living  with  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  their  selling  to  traders  ? 

A.  No.  I  suppose  they  sell  occasionally  a  sack  or  so  to  traders  for 
their  own  use,  but  not  in  any  quantities. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  quantity  of  Indian  flour  being  taken 
from  here  to  Sidney  1 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  observe  the  herds  of  beef-cattle  that  were  brought 
here  for  delivery  to  the  agency  1 

A.  I  have  seen  a  good  many  of  them  here  and  at  Spotted  Tail.  They 
came  from  the  same  herd. 

Q.  What  was  the  general  character  of  these  cattle  as  far  as  you  saw 
them  ? 

A.  They  were  always  very  good  cattle,  and  pronounced  so  by  stock 
men  generally. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  seeing  any  of  them  last  fall  or  winter,  or  along 
towards  last  spring  f 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  saw  a  good  many  of  them  and  handled  a  great  many 
hides  which  were  taken  off  them. 

Q.  Were  they  what  you  would  call  good-sized  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  They  were. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  them  weighed  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  any  of  them  weighed  here.  I  saw  one  lot  weighed  at 
Spotted  Tail,  and  stood  at  the  scales  with  Mr.  Willard,  the  clerk,  when 
he  weighed  them. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  about  what  they  averaged  ? 

A.  I  knew  exactly  at  the  time,  but  I  cannot  remember  now.  It  was 
something  over  1,000  pounds.  I  have  forgotten  the  exact  amount. 

Q.  And  those  cattle  were  about  an  average  of  the  cattle  you  saw 
delivered  here  <? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were. 

Q.  Were  they  steers  or  cows  ? 

A.  Steers  and  cows  ;  mostly  steers. 

Q.  Four-year  old^steers  and  upwards  ? 


333 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  what  is  termed  in  this  country  beaves,  which 
require  to  be  four  years  old. 

Q.  Were  they  what  you  term  in  this  country  through  Texas  cattle,  or 
cattle  that  had  been  here  a  season  I 

A.  Some  of  them  were  through  cattle,  and  some  of  them  were  win 
tered  cattle,  which  had  been  kept  here  one  winter,  cattle  which  come  up 
here  from  Texas  and  spend  one  winter  either  on  the  plains  here  or  in 
Kansas. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  now  of  what  was  the  average  weight  of 
the  hides  received  at  your  trading-establishment  at  Spotted  Tail  agency 
compared  with  the  average  weight  of  hides  received  at  this  place  ? 

A.  They  would  run  about  the  same. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  And  that  is  about  how  much  ? 
A.  About  25  pounds  dry  flint. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Such  hides  weigh  about  how  much  when  green  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  never  weighed  any  of  them.  I  should  judge 
they  would  weigh  about  70  or  80  pounds.  They  are  very  heavy. 

Q.  I  judge  from  what  you  say  that  you  have  been  trading  with  the 
Indians  for  a  considerable  length  of  time — since  1869? 

A.  Yes,  I  have  been  connected  with  the  Indians,  directly  or  indirectly, 
for  about  eight  years.  I  was  at  the  military  post  at  Fort  Laramie  and  at 
Fort  Fetterrnau  before  I  came  here. 

Q.  Then  you  have  seen  a  good  deal  of  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  their  general  disposition  in  regard  to 
their  being  satisfied  or  dissatisfied  with  what  they  get  and  what  is  done 
for  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  a  very  good  idea  of  it.  I  never  yet  saw  an  Indian 
who  was  satisfied  with  anything  he  got.  The  more  he  gets  the  more  he 
wants. 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Wednesday,  August  25,  1875. 
Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  B.  F.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.   HOWE,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Mr.  F.  D.  YATES  was  recalled. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Question.  Did  you  accompany  Mr.  Bosler  in  the  delivery  of  any  cattle 
in  the  winter  of  1875  ? 

Answer.  I  did  not  accompany  Mr.  Bosler  in  the  delivery  of  any  cattle. 
Mr.  Bosler  went  down  from  Bed  Cloud  agency  to  Spotted  Tail  with  me, 
and  told  me  he  was  going  to  see  about  some  cattle.  I  supposed  he  was 
going  to  get  his  receipts  for  cattle  already  delivered. 

Q.  What  did  you  find  when  you  got  there  J? 

A.  We  met  some  of  Bosler's  herders  on  the  way  back,  about  the  mid 
dle  of  February,  between  the  14th  and  the  18th. 

Q.  Did  you  see  yourself  that  there  were  any  cattle  delivered  af  that 
time — in  February,  1875  ? 

A.  I  know  there  were  some  delivered. 

Q.  Did  you  see  them  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  got  their  hides. 


334 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  of  the  quantity  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  know  what  the  quantity  was. 

Q.  Could  you  judge  of  their  condition  and  character  from  the  hides'? 

A.  They  were  very  good  hides — average  hides. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  yourself  Jl 

A.  I  saw  some,  but  not  all  of  them.  I  saw,  the  day  we  got  in,  the  In 
dians  chasing  some  cattle. 

Q.  Cattle  which  had  been  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  were  chasing  them  to  kill  them  after  their  issue. 

Q.  Could  you  form  any  estimate  from  the  number  of  hides  you  received 
of  the  number  of  cattle  delivered  on  that  occasion  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  now ;  I  could  tell  from  my  books  at  home.  I  was 
then  one  of  the  traders  at  Spotted  Tail  agency. 

Q.  You  were  living  at  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  in  1875  ? 

A.  I  was,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  fact  of  any  great  amount  of  starva 
tion  among  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  There  were  twenty  days  that  they  had  no  issue  of  beef. 
I  understood  it  was  afterward  made  up  to  them  in  large  issues. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  say,  of  your  own  knowledge,  that  there  was  no 
longer  period  than  twenty  days  ? 

A.  It  was  the  extent  of  two  issues — twenty  days.  There  was  one 
period  of  twenty  days  during  which  no  issue  was  made. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  say  of  your  own  knowledge  that  there  was  no 
longer  period  than  twenty  days  during  which  there  was  no  issue  of 
beef? 

A.  I  am. 

Q.  Did  you  see  all   the  issues  of  beef? 

A.  I  saw  very  few  issues,  but  I  got  a  portion  of  their  hides,  and  I 
knew  they  were  issued. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  of  the  condition  of  the  Indians  during 
that  period  ?  What  wras  their  condition  as  to  food  or  starvation  ? 

A.  I  never  heard  of  any  great  amount  of  starvation  there.  I  am  sure 
the  Indians  are  always  grumbling. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  of  their  being  so  destitute  that  they  were 
compelled  to  kill  and  eat  their  ponies  '? 

A.  I  heard  it  at  Cheyenne,  not  at  the  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Mr.  Yates,  do  you  remember  about  the  time  that  the  Spotted 
Tail  agency  was  removed  to  its  present  location  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  that  f 

A.  I  think  it  was  about  the  latter  part  of  September,  or  the  first  of 
October,  1874. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  had  the  contract  for  transporting  the  supplies 
from  the  old  agency  to  the  new1? 

A.  No,  sir.  Pardon  me,  but  they  moved  the  agency  twice — once  to 
a  poiTit  about  twelve  miles  below  where  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  is,  and 
afterwards  to  where  it  is  now. 

Q.  For  which  removal  was  it  that  Dr.  Graves  had  a  contract  ? 

A.  That  was  for  the  removal  of  the  agency  from,  twelve  miles  below 


335 

where  the  present  Red  Cloud  agency  is  to  a  point  on  the  White  River, 
near  the  inouth  of  Beaver  Creek. 

Q.  Who  did  the  most  of  the  work  of  transporting  the  material  and 
supplies  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  did  most  of  it  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  get  paid  for  it  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  get  a  voucher  for  it? 

A.  I  did  not.  I  got  Mr.  Graves's  draft  on  Posey  Wilson,  a  banker  in 
Cheyenne,  which  I  considered  as  nothing.  I  returned  the  draft,  and 
took  back  my  bills  of  lading. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Graves  every  get  his  pay  from  the  Government? 

A.  I  think  not,  sir.  I  stated  that  I  gave  him  back  his  draft.  I  merely 
gave  him  an  order  to  get  bis  draft,  if  the  Government  should  ignore 
his  voucher  and  pay  him  nothing. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  Mr.  Graves  never  got  his  pay? 

A.  I  do  not.  Graves  had  a  contract  with  the  agent  to  remove  the 
agency,  and  there  was  some  hurry  in  removing  it.  The  contract  was 
given  to  Graves  without  the  approval  of  the  Commissioner,  upon  the 
supposition  that  the  Commissioner  would  approve  it.  He  afterwards 
disapproved  the  contract,  and  that  is  the  reason,  I  suppose,  Graves  did 
not  get  his  pay  or  a  voucher.  In  the  mean  time  the  work  had  been  done. 
I  did  work  to  the  amount  of  ninety-six  hundred  dollars,  for  the  re 
moval  of  the  agency — Indian  goods,  supplies,  buildings — from  the  old 
Spotted  Tail  agency  to  the  one  on  White  River.  That  was  in  1873. 
We  commenced  removing  about  the  1st  January,  and  finished  in  April. 
I  have  never  been  paid  for  it. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  by  whose  order  that  removal  was  made? 

A.  It  was  made  by  the  order  of  the  Commissioner,  as  I  understood  it. 
It  wras  the  desire  of  the  Government  to  have  it  removed.  I  saw  several 
letters  stating  that  the  agency  should  be  removed. 

Q.  How  long  did  it  remain  at  the  mouth  of  Beaver  Creek  ? 

A.  I  think  something  over  a  year. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Then  it  was  removed  to  its  present  location '? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  about  ten  miles  above  the  mouth  of  Beaver  Creek. 
That  is  its  present  location.  It  remained  there  at  the  mouth  of  Beaver 
Creek  from  January  1,  1873,  to  September  or  October,  1874,  when  it  was 
removed  to  its  present  location. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  When  was  it  located  on  White  Earth  River,  where  you  moved  it 
from  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  moved  there  in  the  winter  of  1871  or  1872.  I  was 
not  there  at  the  time  it  was  located  at  that  point,  but  it  was  some  time 
during  the  winter  of  1871  and  1872. 

Q.  Where  wa?  it  moved  from  then  ? 

A.  It  was  moved  from  a  point  on  a  creek  known  as  Big  White  Clay, 
which  empties  into  White  River,  and  moved  from  the  Missouri  first  to 
this  Big  White  Clay. 

Q.  How  far  is  this  Big  White  Clay  from  that  point  on  the  White  Earth 
River  to  which  it  was  removed  in  1871  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.     I  should  judge  about  seventy-five  miles. 

Q.  What  was  this  removal  ?     What  did  you  have  to  transport  ? 


336 

A.  Eations,  bacon,  sugar,  coffee,  flour,  lumber,  and  the  tools  of  the 
agency— plows  and  blacksmith-tools,  carpenter-tools,  &c. 

Q.  Were  the  buildings  taken  down  1? 

A.  Part  of  them  were.  The  best  of  the  lumber  was  taken  out  and 
the  buildings  taken  down  in  order  to  hurry  the  buildings  they  put  up 
there.  There  were  two  frame  warehouses  taken  down,  I  think. 

Q.  What  buildings  wrere  left  standing  ? 

A.  None,  except  some  log-buildings.  The  agent's  office  and  two  ware 
houses  were  left  standing  at  the  old  place.  Those  were  constructed  of 
logs  by  the  employes.  I  was  there  at  the  time  they  were  put  up. 


EED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Wednesday,  August  11,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  B.  F.  HARRIS,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LEON  PALLARDAY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Pallarday,  we  want  to  make  a  few  inquiries  of  you  in 
regard  to  which  you  can  give  us  some  information.  How  long  have  you 
been  in  the  Indian  country  ? 

Answer.  I  have  been  here  since  1847  ;  I  have  been  during  the  greater 
part  of  that  time  with  the  Sioux.  I  have  been  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency 
since  last  spring;  I  came  here  in  April.  I  was  here  last  summer  em 
ployed  as  a  guide  by  the  Government ;  I  have  been  employed  for  the 
last  eight  or  ten  years  by  the  Government  as  a  guide  and  interpreter. 

Q.  Can  you  speak  to  any  Indians  besides  the  Sioux  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  can  make  myself  understood  by  any  other  Indians.  I 
can  speak  to  the  Cheyenues  very  well  by  signs,  as  every  word  has  a- 
sign  with  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything,  of  your  own  knowledge,  about  the  char 
acter  of  the  supplies  and  annuity-goods  issued  here  last  fall  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  1  was  not  here. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  any  of  the  Indians  saying  anything  about 
the  supplies  they  were  getting  ? 

A.  They  have  never  said  anything  to  me,  sir ;  I  have  heard  them 
talking  among  themselves ;  I  paid  no  attention  to  it,  because  they  were 
talking  among  themselves  and  it  did  not  concern  me. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  Eed  Dog  say  anything  about  the  samples  of 
coffee  he  gave  to.  Professor  Marsh  ?  • 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  him  say  something  about  it  before  he  went  to 
the  Missouri  River;  he  has  gone  there  now  with  the  commissioners. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  that  samirie  of  coffee? 

A.  He  said  that  he  and  Red  Cloud  had  tied  those  samples  up  and 
given  them  to  Professor  Marsh ;  they  called  him  the  man  that  picked 
bones. 

Q.  Did  he  say  where  they  got  the  samples? 

A.  They  were  talking  about  that  one  day,  and  I  inquired  how  they 
got  all  this  coffee.  He  said  they  picked  the  bad  grains  out  of  the  coftee 
in  the  warehouse.  I  asked  how  they  got  all  this  bad  coffee,  and  they 
said  they  picked  it  out. 

Q.  Had  he  heard  of  Professor  Marsh's  charges  about  those  things  ? 


337 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  thiuk  he  had.  It  was  the  very  day  of  the  conversation 
between  us  and  Red  Dog  that  turned  on  this  subject.  He  said  they 
picked  out  all  the  bad  grains  of  coffee. 

Q.  Who  was  present  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  don't  recollect  whether  Mr.  Yates  was  there  or  not,  nor  do  I  re 
member  if  Mr.  Eoberts  was.  There  were  some  Indians  there,  but  I  think 
no  white  men.  The  conversation  took  place  in  front  of  Mr.  Yates's 
store. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  occasion  when  Mr.  Yates  asked  you  to  ask 
Red  Dog  about  those  things  $ 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  Mr.  Yates  asked  me  to  ask  Red  Dog  how  he  got  those 
samples.  I  did  not  see  him  at  that  time,  but  it  was  afterward,  and  I 
told  Mr.  Yates  about  it.  Mr.  Yates  speaks  the  Sioux  language  a  little. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  the  Indians  say  anything  about  any  other  sam 
ples  of  supplies  they  got  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not ;  only  what  they  said  before  you  yesterday. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  Red  Dog,  or  did  he  inform  you,  in  regard  to  the  man 
ner  in  which  these  other  samples  were  selected  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  he  did  not ;  only  in  regard  to  the  coffee.  He  said  he  had 
sent  other  samples,  but  I  did  not  ask  what  they  were. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  herds  of  cattle  that  were  issued  here  I 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  was  here  while  any  cattle  were  issued  j  I  have 
always  been  in  the  store ;  I  never  went  to  the  corral. 

Q.  In  your  frequent  conversations  with  the  Indians,  particularly  with 
the  head  men,  what  do  you  gather  from  them  as  their  wish  in  regard 
to  the  supplies  that  are  furnished  them?  What  kind  of  supplies  do  they 
most  desire — or  do  they  desire  some  changes  ? 

A.  From  what  I  can  understand  from  the  Indians,  the  supplies  they 
are  getting  now  are  the  kind  they  want,  but  they  don't  want  pork ;  they 
want  bacon  instead. 

Q.  Do  they  want  rice  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  they  do  ;  and  also  tea. 

Q.  Do  they  desire  to  have  clothes  like  white  men,  instead  of  blankets, 
issued  to  them  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  they  all  would  ;  probably  a  few  would. 


TESTIMONY  OF  TODD  RANDALL. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country  ? 

Answer.  I  have  been  in  the  Indian  country  for  twenty-six  years.  I  have 
been  with  the  Ogallalla  and  Brule  Sioux  since  1868.  During  that  time 
I  have  been  employed  as  interpreter  and  sub-agent.  I  was  here  last 
fall,  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here,  in  November.  I  remember  notic 
ing  the  kind  of  supplies  that  were  being  issued  to  the  Indians  at  that 
time.  I  saw  the  coffee  that  was  issued.  It  was  a  very  common  kind  of 
coffee;  such  as  is  generally  used  in  the  western  country.  I  noticed  the 
sugar ;  it  was  not  a  very  good  article  of  sugar.  It  would  have  been 
good  enough,  but  it  was  dirty. 

Q.  Was  it  such  as  not  to  be  made  use  of  by  the  Indians? 

A.  They  did  use  it.    I  noticed  the  flour  also.    There  was  some  very 
good  and  some  very  bad  flour.     Some  that  they  could  not  use. 
22  IF 


338 

Q.  Was  that  which  they  did  not  use  spoiled,  or  was  it  made  out  of 
bad  wheat? 

A.  I  dou't  know  about  that.  It  was  very  dark  and  musty.  It  must 
have  been  damaged,  but  I  could  not  tell  how;  it  was  certainly  unfit  for 
use. 

Q.  How  much  bad  flour  was  there  compared  with  the  whole  amount? 

A.  I  cannot  say.  There  was  a  considerable  quantity  of  it.  In  fact,  it 
was  only  now  and  then  that  you  could  get  some  good  flour. 

Q.  Was  the  bad  flour  branded  with  the  inspector's  brand  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  dou't  recollect  what  inspector.  It  had  been  inspected 
at  Cheyenne,  I  believe,  or  at  Camp  Carling. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  Indians  did  with  the  bad  flour  ? 

A.  They  fed  it  to  their  ponies,  and  what  the  ponies  would  not  eat  they 
threw  away. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  flour  having  gone  from  here  to  Sidney  during 
last  spring? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  flour  being  hauled  from  the  agency  or  this 
neighborhood  to  any  other  point? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  blankets  that  were  being  issued  last  winter  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  was  present  at  the  issue. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  how  many  bales  there  were  ? 

A.  I  do  not.  I  did  not  count  them.  I  heard  the  Indians  talking 
about  the  blankets.  They  complained  more  about  the  quantity  than  the 
quality.  They  did  not  like  the  brand  being  on  them. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  noticed  if  the  brand  injured  the  blankets  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  noticed  that  it  did. 

Q.  What  objection  do  they  make  to  the  brand  ? 

A.  They  don't  like  it  on  their  blankets.  They  don't  want  any  mark 
on  them. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  herd  of  cattle  that  was  driven  into  the  corral 
to-day  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  beef-cattle  that  were  issued  during  last  fall  and 
spring  ? 

A.  I  did,  in  the  early  part  of  the  fall.  I  was  sick  during  the  winter, 
and  did  not  go  out  to  see  them.  I  did  not  see  the  cattle  that  were  issued 
for  October,  but  previous  to  that  time  I  saw  all  the  cattle  that  were 
driven  in. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  those  you  saw? 

A.  They  were  very  fair  Texas  cattle ;  about  like  all  the  cattle  they 
drive  in  this  country.  They  were  cows  and  steers  mixed. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  any  yearlings  or  calves  ? 

A.  There  might  have  been  a  few  of  that  kind  driven  in  with  the  large 
steers  and  cows  which  they  generally  furnish. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  Indian  supplies  being  taken  from 
the  agency  and  disposed  of  to  any  of  the  traders  around  here  ? 

A.  1  dou't  know  of  anything  being  taken  from  the  agency,  but  they 
traded  some  sugar  in  the  traders'  stores  that  was  of  the  same  quality 
that  was  issued  to  the  Indians.  It  was  stated  by  men  here  that  it  was 
taken  from  the  stores  here,  from  Mr.  Walters'  store,  but  I  don't  know 
the  fact  myself.  Mr.  Walters  is  not  here  now ;  he  sold  out  to  Mr.  Yates. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  or  hear  of  any  other  Indian  goods  or  supplies 
being  traded  ? 


339 

A.  Some  Indian  cloth  was  traded  in  the  same  place.  This  was  some 
time  after  the  annuities  were  issued  in  the  winter. 

Q.  Bo  you  know  where  Mr.  Walters  is  now  J? 

A.  I  think  he  is  in  Omaha. 

Q.  Is  there  any  one  here  now  who  was  employed  in  Mr.  Walters' 
store  at  that  time  9 

A.  There  are  two  men — George  Stover  and  James  Pulliam. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  Pulliam  is  here  now  9 

A.  I  think  he  is  out  buying  lumber  for  the  miller.  Stover  is  out 
buying  cattle  on  the  Running  Water.  He  may  be  in  here  to-morrow. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  know  personally  about  sugar  being  traded  to  Mr. 
Walters  9 

A.  I  know  nothing,  only  from  seeing  the  quality  of  sugar,  which 
was  the  same  sugar  as  was  in  the  agency.  I  bought  some  of  it. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  used  any  sugar  from  the  commissary  of  the  agency  9 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  entitled  to  receive  it  9 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  Indian  cloth  9 

A.  Nothing  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  understood  it  was  sold  from  Mr.  Walters'  store? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;•  Mr.  Pulliam  told  me  that  there  was  cloth  carried  out  of 
the  commissary  and  sold  at  that  store.  He  did  not  say  how  much. 
There  were  about  four  bolts  5  a  bolt  contains  about  thirty-two  yards.  It 
was  blue  Indian  woolen  cloth,  the  same  as  they  wear  now.  It  was 
worth  four  dollars  per  yard  here.  We  generally  pay  from  $2.05  to 
$1.85  for  it  in  Omaha,  where  it  is  made. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  that  cloth  which  you  knew  came  from 
the  store  9 

A.  I  heard  from  the  Indians  that  there  was  none  of  that  cloth  in  the 
country,  and  in  a  few  days  the  Indians  were  buying  it  from  the  store. 

Q.  Did  the  store-keeper  have  that  kind  of  cloth  in  his  store  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  keep  it. 

Q.  You  say  the  cattle  which  were  issued  in  the  summer,  before 
November,  1874,  were  fair  Texas  cattle  9 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  have  you  had  experience  in  cattle? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  dealt  in  cattle  a  great  deal. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  form  a  judgment  of  the  extreme  weight  of  those 
cattle,  from  the  largest  to  the  smallest  9 

A.  I  saw  some  of  them  weighed,  two  lots,  and  the  two  lots  averaged 
930  pounds.  I  saw  them  weighed,  and  am  satisfied  they  weighed  that 
much.  The  average  then  was  over  900  pounds. 

Q.  When  was  that  9 

A.  It  was  in  June  and  July,  1874.  I  think  the  average  one  time 
was  930  pounds,  and  the  other  something  like  931 ;  I  cannot  say  ex 
actly. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  poor  cattle,  unfit  for  beef,  going  into  the  hands 
of  the  agent  last  year  9 

A.  There  were  some  that  were  very  poor  during  the  winter,  but  they 
were  pressed  for  cattle,  and  it  was  almost  impossible  for  him  to  give  them 
anything  to  eat  in  this  country.  They  were  wintered  on  the  Platte. 

Q.  There  were  sometimes  yearlings  with  those  cattle  9 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  were  some  small  cattle. 


340 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  cattle  being  put  through  that  were  not 
counted  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  to  having  seen  any  yearlings.  They  were  small 
cows  and  small  calves.  They  are  generally  taken  out  and  killed  by 
the  Indians,  and  sometimes  pretty  large  calves  are  given  to  the  Indians, 
but  I  don't  know  anything  about  them  being  issued  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  of  the  freighters  ever  buying  flour  from  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  They  may  have  done  so. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  flour  in  your  store  that  you  bought  of  the  In 
dians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  had  fifty  sacks  of  this  bad  flour. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  give  for  it  ? 

A.  I  sometimes  gave  $2.50  per  hundred  for  good  flour,  but  I  got  this 
bad  flour  for  $  I  per  hundred,  and  I  thought  it  was  a  bad  bargain  at 
that.  I  have  been  engaged  in  teaming. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  ask  the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne  to  allow  you  to 
supply  him  with  one  hundred  sacks  of  flour  here,  and  put  one  hundred 
sacks  less  on  the  team  at  that  end  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  your  proposition  ? 

A.  I  saw  the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne,  and  asked  him  if  there  could 
be  any  arrangement  made  with  the  contractor  to  furnish  him  with  flour 
here  at  the  contract-price. 

Q.  That  would  necessarily  involve  bringing  one  hundred  sacks  less 
over  the  road  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  would  save  the  contractor  the  freight  on  one  hundred 
sacks  from  there  here. 

Q.  How  would  that  save  him  the  freight  ? 

A.  The  man  that  had  the  flour-contract  at  that  time  had  to  deliver  it 
at  the  agency. 

Q.  With  what  flour  did  you  contemplate  to  supply  these  one  hundred 
sacks,  if  you  could  make  the  arrangement  f 

A.  Part  of  it  I  had  on  hand.  I  bought  it  of  the  Indians.  It  cost  me 
about  $2  a  sack  in  trade. 

Q.  What  was  the  reply  of  the  store-keeper  in  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  He  said  he  did  not  know  anything  about  the  contractor's  arrange 
ments,  and  could  not  do  anything  himself. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  freighters  buy  that  flour  of  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  dispose  of  it  ? 

A.  I  fed  most  of  it  to  my  mules. 

Q.  Was  it  good  flour  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  was  not. 

Q.  How  did  that  flour  you  had  on  hand  then  compare  with  the  flour 
that  was  issued  to  the  Indians  last  year  ? 

A.  It  was  about  the  same  quality  of  flour.  It  all  had  some  inspector's 
brand  on  it.  I  never  examined  the  brand,  but  the  bags  were  branded. 

Q.  Did  you  take  notice  particularly  to  observe  the  distinction  be 
tween  the  inspector's  brand  and  the  brand  of  shipment? 

A.  I  did  not  notice  that,  but  I  think  I  did  notice  that  they  had  the 
inspector's  brand  on  them. 

Q.  What  have  been  your  relations  toward  Dr.  Saville  during  the  last 
year? 

A.  Dr.  Saville  and  myself  during  the  last  year  have  not  been  very 
friendly.  We  were  good  friends  at  one  time. 


341 

Q.  What  was  the  cause  of  the  change  of  feeling  toward  him  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say,  sir. 

Q.  What  cause,  if  any,  led  you  to  have  any  unkind  feelings  toward 
him  ? 

A.  From  the  way  he  had  treated  me. 

Q.  Were  you  employed  here  at  any  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  way  did  he  ill  treat  you  ? 

A.  Well,  he  has  treated  me  pretty  rough  ever  since  last  fall.  He  did 
most  everything  he  could  against  me. 

Q.  What,  among  other  things  ? 

A.  Well,  the  most  particular  thing  he  did  was  about  some  lumber.  I 
made  a  contract  with  Bishop  Hare  to  furnish  lumber  for  a  church,  pro 
vided  I  could  have  the  use  of  the  Government  saw-mill  and  saw  it  with 
my  own  "  hands,"  (laborers.)  Dr.  Saville  left  here,  and  I  believe  he  gave 
orders  to  his  clerk  not  to  allow  me  the  use  of  the  mill,  and  after  he  returned 
I  asked  him  about  it  and  he  said  he  thought  Bishop  Hare  had  made  dif 
ferent  arrangements  about  his  lumber.  I  told  him  that  I  had  gone  to 
the  expense  of  getting  out  the  logs  and  had  kept  men  employed,  and  I 
would  like  to  have  the  contract  so  as  to  get  my  money  back.  He  said 
he  could  not  tell  me  anything  about  it,  but  would  write  to  Bishop  Hare. 
I  at  the  same  time  wrote  to  Bishop  Hare,  but  did  not  get  any  answer, 
and  I  discharged  my  men  and  gave  up  ever  receiving  anything.  Dur 
ing  the  winter  I  wanted  to  build  a  house  and  I  asked  permission  of  Dr. 
Saville  to  get  some  logs  from  the  mill,  and  he  positively  refused  it,  but 
before  he  left  in  February  or  the  last  of  January,  he  gave  me  permission, 
to  have  some  logs  sawed,  but  gave  his  clerk  orders  not  to  allow  me  to 
have  them  sawed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  it  is  worth  to  saw  a  thousand  feet  of  plank  an 
inch  thick  ?  what  can  it  be  done  for  here  with  such  a  mill  as  that  '•? 

A.  It  can  be  done  for  about  four  to  five  dollars. 

Q.  You  mean  to  get  out  the  logs  to  saw  9 

A.  ]STo,  sir;  to  saw  them  after  they  are  here. 

Q.  What  is  it  worth  to  get  out  the  logs  ? 

A.  Eighteen  to  twenty  dollars. 

Q.  So  then  the  boards  sawed  out  would  bring  from  $20  to  $22? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what      it  worth  to  cut  the  timber  and  saw  the  logs  I 

A.  I  don't  know  what  it  is  worth. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  it  is  worth  to  saw  shingles  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difference  between  sawing  the  boards  and  planks  ?  Is 
it  any  cheaper  to  saw  planks  than  boards  ? 

A.  I  suppose  it  is  better  for  the  man  to  saw  two  inches  than  one. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  it  is  customary  for  the  traders  to  keep  on  hand 
this  blue  Indian  cloth  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  when  it  was  that  this  sugar  and  Indian  cloth  which 
you  speak  of  was  seen  in  the  stores  of  the  traders  ? 

A.  I  can  tell  you  who  was  the  clerk  of  the  agency  at  that  time  ;  at  the 
time  the  sugar  was  taken  out  of  the  commissary,  James  Koberts  was 
the  clerk,  and  Oliver  Appleton  was  the  storekeeper. 

Q.  And  when  the  Indian  cloth  was  taken  who  was  the  storekeeper 
then? 

A.  I  don't  remember  whether  it  was  before  or  after  Appleton  left  that 
this  cloth  was  taken  from  the  commissary.  I  remember  very  well  when 


342 

the  sugar  was  taken  out ;  I  don't  remember  the  month ;  it  was  in  the  fall 
of  last  year,  1874 ;  Roberts  was  the  clerk. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  say  you  have  been  living  in  this  country  ! 

A.  I  have  been  here  for  twenty-six  years  this  coming  fall.     I  have 
been  with  these  Indians  since  the  treaty  of  1868. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Had  you  anything  to  do  with  furnishing  timber  for  the  agency 
buildings? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  did  you  furnish  1 

A.  I  furnished  8,500  feet  in  this  building. 

Q.  At  what  time  did  you  receive  your  pay  for  the  lumber  furnished  I 

A.  I  have  not  received  any  yet. 

Q.  For  what  reason  do  you  understand  was  the  pay  withheld  ?  When 
was  it  due  ? 

A.  I  had  no  contract,  but  they  were  to  pay  at  the  end  of  the  quarter 
in  which  it  was  delivered.  I  understand  it  has  never  been  paid  on 
account  of  the  deficiency  of  funds.  I  don't  know  when  I  may  expect  it. 

Q.  Did  you  know  young  Appleton  who  was  an  assistant  here"? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  was  the  clerk. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  his  wishing  or  endeavoring  to  go 
away  from  here  before  he  was  killed  f 

A.  I  only  know  it  in  a  general  way;  he  asked  his  father  to  allow  him 
to  go,  but  his  father  persuaded  him  to  remain.  I  know  nothing  of  my 
owTn  knowledge  ;  he  said  he  wanted  to  go  away  ;  he  did  not  like  the  wray 
the  Indians  acted  and  he  wanted  to  go  away;  he  did  not  express  any 
dissatisfaction  with  the  nature  of  his  duties.  A  man  by  the  name  of 
Johnson  told  me  about  young  Appleton  wanting  to  leave;  he  was  em 
ployed  here.  I  was  in  Cheyenne  at  the  time  and  he  told  me  when  I  came 
back.  I  think  Johnson  is  now  at  Fort  Fetterman.  Johnson  was  clerk  in 
place  of  young  Appleton,  wrho  had  gone  home  because  his  leg  was 
broken. 

Q.  Did  Johnson  himself  ever  say  anything  about  the  manner  of  con 
ducting  the  affairs  at  the  agency  f 

A.  Yes,  sir.     He  talked  about  it.     I  do  not  remember  what  he  said. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  substance  of  what  he  said  about  the  manage 
ment  of  affairs  here  ? 

A.  He  was  not  altogether  satisfied  with  the  manner  in  which  things 
are  managed  here;  he  said  it  was  not  a  very  agreeable  place  to  work,  and 
he  wanted  to  go  away  from  it ;  he  complained  more  about  his  pay  than 
anything  else. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  bills  in  connection  with  the  erection  of 
the  agency  buildings  that  are  now  outstanding? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  there  is  a  voucher  now  in  New  York  for  hay,  that  was 
put  in  here  at  the  time  the  agency  was  being  built.  1  think  Mr.  Jones 
has  an  account  against  the  agency  for  hauling  hay  last  year,  which  has 
not  been  paid.  I  have  an  account  against  the  agent  which  has  not  been 
paid ;  it  is  for  articles  for  the  use  of  the  Indian  soldiers  and  employes — 
for  different  kinds  of  goods,  clothes,  provisions,  and  different  kinds  of 
trinkets,  and  sugar,  tea,  and  crackers,  &c. 

Q.  How  much  is  the  amount  of  your  bill  ? 

A.  It  is  between  five  and  six  hundred  dollars.  1  have  also  a  few 
vouchers  for  payment  of  the  men  who  moved  the  saw-mill  amounting 
to  85  dollars. 

Q.  Can  you  show  us  your  accounts  against  the  agency  without  incon 
venience  ? 


343 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  asked  the  agent  to  give  me  a  voucher,  or  a  sworn 
statement  of  the  amount,  and  he  said  he  could  not  give  vouchers,  as  he 
had  orders  not  to  give  vouchers  unless  there  was  money  for  the  pur 
pose. 

Q.  In  whose  hands  is  this  voucher  for  hauling  hay,  in  1873? 

A.  They  are  in  mine.  I  had  a  contract  in  1873  for  delivering  hay  at 
the  agency.  I  sold  the  voucher  to  some  men  in  Cheyenne,  and  they 
told  me  the  last  time  1  was  there  that  it  had  not  been  paid.  I  had  paid 
interest  on  so  many  vouchers,  at  two  per  cent,  a  month.  I  sold  that 
one  for  $1,600  ;  it  was  a  discount  of  $50.  I  had  borrowed  $900  on  the 
voucher,  and  paid  two  per  cent,  a  month  interest  for  two  mouths,  and 
I  did  not  want  to  keep  it  any  longer  at  that  rate  and  lose  money  on  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  BOSLEE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Bosler,  please  make  a  general  statement  in  regard  to  this 
matter,  so  far  as  you  are  concerned. 

Answer.  Well,  so  far  as  we  are  interested  in  this  controversy,  there  is 
just  this  much  to  show,  and  that  is,  whether  we  delivered  the  numbers, 
and  whether  we  delivered  the  quantity  as  to  weight  of  cattle,  as  set  forth 
in  the  agent's  receipts,  according  to  the  contract.  The  complaint  that 
Professor  Marsh  makes  is,  that  we  got  receipts  for  more  cattle  than  we 
delivered,  in  weight  and  numbers.  I  have  a  few  papers  here  which  I 
wish  to  submit  to  you  in  regard  to  these  charges.  I  will  state  that  we 
delivered  the  cattle  in  accordance  with  the  contract,  and  these  papers 
and  affidavits  are  from  the  parties  from  whom  we  purchased  cattle,  and 
they  show  that  the  number  of  cattle  receipted  for  were  purchased  and 
driven  to  this  point ;  and  then,  with  a  statement  of  the  number  of  hides 
that  were  purchased  by  persons  doing  business  here,  we  will  show  that 
we  fulfilled  our  contract  according  to  the  numbers ;  and  as  to  the  quality, 
we  submit  these  papers  in  support  of  this  statement.  These  papers 
contain  all  the  statement  I  wish  to  make  in  regard  to  the  subject. 

First.  A  sworn  statement  of  James  F.  Ellison,  of  Sidney,  Nebraska : 

SIDNEY,  NEBR.,  July  27, 1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  sold  and  delivered  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  for  the  use  of  the  Indian 
contract,  during  the  month  of  August,  1874,  six  thousand  eight  hundred  head  of  cattle. 
The  said  cattle  were  all  four  years  of  age  and  upward,  of  excellent  quality,  and  in 
good  condition,  best  grade  of  Texas  cattle,  all  good  four-year  old  steers  but  about 
twelve  hundred  head,  which  were  good  cows.  Delivered  forty-seven  hundred  of  those 
cattle  on  the  Platte  River,  for  the  use  of  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies.  I  would 
estimate  the  weight  of  the  entire  lot  at  over  1,000  pounds  gross.  I  have  been  em 
ployed  in  the  cattle-trade  for  ten  years  ;  am  a  good  judge  of  the  weight  and  quality 
of  cattle.  Handle  annually  from  six  to  twelve  thousand  head  of  cattle.  I  know  to  my 
personal  knowledge  that  Mr.  Bosler  in  his  purchases  of  cattle  for  the  Indian  contract 
buys  the  best  on  the  market. 

JAMES  F.  ELLISON. 
STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss : 

James  F.  Ellison,  le'ng  duly  sworn,  says  the  foregoing  certificate  is  true  in  matter 
and  in  fact. 

JAMES  F.  ELLISON. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  28th  day  of  July,  1875. 
[SEAL.!  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  PuWic,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska* 


344 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  In  reference  to  this  paper,  I  would  like  to  know  where  Mr.  Ellison 
is  now. 

A.  He  was  at  Ogalalla  a  few  weeks  ago,  and  I  think  he  will  be  able 
to  meet  you  there  on  your  return. 

Second.  A  sworn  statement  of  Seth.  Maybry,  of  North  Platte,  Ne 
braska  : 

NORTH  PLATTE,  NEBR.,  July  26,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  sold  and  delivered  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  for  the  use  of  the  Indian 
contract,  during  the  summer  of  1874,  seven  thousand  head  of  cattle,  all  four  years  of 
age  and  upward,  all  steers  but  about  three  hundred — these  were  good  cows — all  of  good 
quality  and  in  good  condition  ;  no  better  driven  from  Texas.  I  would  say  the  entire 
lot  would  average  1,000  pounds  gross  at  least.  I  am  one  of  the  heaviest  cattle-traders 
of  Texas  ;  do  drive  from  eight  to  ten  thousand  head  annually  ;  am  a  judge  of  the  weight 
and  quality  of  cattle ;  delivered  about  four  thousand  head  of  these  cattle  on  the 
North  Platte  River  for  the  use  of  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies. 

SETH  MABRY, 
Of  North  Platte,  Nebraska. 

Subscribed  in  my  presence,  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  26th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  A.  H.  CHURCH, 

Probate  Judge. 

We  were  purchasing  cattle  for  the  Missouri  Biver  at  the  same  time, 
and  this  statement  shows  the  number  of  cattle  we  purchased  for  the 
same  place. 

Q.  Where  is  Mr.  Maybry  now  ? 

A.  He  was  at  North  Platte  when  I  got  the  affidavit ;  he  is  a  man  that 
can  be  reached.  I  asked  him  to  be  at  Cheyenne  when  you  returned. 
He  is  a  reliable  man,  and  is  well  known  in  this  country.  Part  of  these 
cattle  went  to  the  North  Platte  and  part  to  the  Missouri  Kiver. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  These  affidavits  relate  to  cattle  that  were  delivered  by  you  only  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Third.  The  sworn  statement  of  George  W.  Littlefield,  Sidney,  Ne 
braska  : 

SIDNEY,  NEBU.,  July  22,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  J.  H.  Bosler  purchased  of  me,  for  the  use  of  the  Indian  con" 
tract,  about  three  thousand  head  of  cattle  during  the  month  of  August,  1874,  and 
that  such  cattle  were  a  good  quality  of  Texas  cattle,  in  very  good  condition.  Part  of 
them  I  delivered  on  the  Missouri  River,  and  part  on  the  North  Platte  River,  and,  to 
the  best  of  my  belief,  I  would  estimate  the  Platte  River  herd  at  1,000  pounds  per  head. 
I  am  a  cattle-dealer,  and  handle  from  eight  to  ten  thousand  head  every  season,  and 
drive  as  good  quality  of  stock  as  comes  to  the  north.  Out  of  the  number  I  drove,  I 
sold  six  hundred  head  which  was  a  shade  better  than  those  sold  Mr.  Bosler.  Delivered 
them  in  Indiana,  and  they  weighed  then  1,020  pounds — weighed  on  Fairbanks  scales. 

GEO.  W.  LITTLEFIELD. 
Witness : 

GEO.  R.  BALLOU. 

STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss  : 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  George  R.  Ballon,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said 
county,  this  22d  day  of  July,  1875,  George  W.  Littlefield,  personally  known  to  me  to 
be  the  party  who  signed  the  foregoing,  and  acknowledged  it  to  be  his  voluntary  act 
and  deed. 

Witness  my  hand  and  seal  the  day  and  year  above  written. 
[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public. 

One-half  went  to  the  Missouri  Eiver  and  the  balance  to  lied  Cloud. 


345 

Fourth.  Affidavits  of  George  Sheidley,  of  Ogalalla,  Nebraska,  and  W. 
O.  Irwin : 

OGALALLA,  NEBR.,  July  26, 1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  we  sold  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  for  the  use  of  the  Indian  contract,  and 
delivered  on  the  Platte  River,  for  use  at  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  during  the 
month  of  August,  1874,  three  thousand  head  of  good  Texas  cattle,  driven  from  the 
Freco  country.  These  cattle  were  all  good  cattle,  all  steers,  four  years  of  age  and  up 
ward,  but  three  hundred,  which  were  good  cows,  all  good  quality  and  in  good  condi 
tion.  I  would  estimate  the  weight  of  them  at  1,000  pounds.  I  am  a  good  judge  of 
cattle ;  have  been  handling  and  driving  cattle  for  six  years  ;  drive  and  handle  from 
four  to  eight  thousand  head  annually. 

GEORGE  SHEIDLEY. 
Witness : 

C.  FERRIS. 

I  was  through  the  herd  of  cattle  delivered  by  Mr.  Sheidley  to  J.  H.  Bosler  on  its  way 
to  the  Platte  River,  the  place  of  delivery,  and  state  that  the  within  description  of 
quality  of  the  cattle  of  said  herd  and  other  facts  set  forth  therein  are  true. 

W.  C.  IRVINE. 
STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss : 

W.  C.  Irvine,  being  first  duly  sworn,  says  the  matters  and  facts  set  forth  above  are 
true,  as  he  verily  believes. 

W.  C.  IRVINE. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  27th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 
STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

.    Cheyenne  County,  ss  : 

James  F.  Ellison,  being  first  duly  sworn,  says  that  he  is  a  cattle-man,  a  dealer  in 
cattle,  and  a  good  judge  of  stock;  that  he  has  read  the  certificate  of  George  Sheidley  ; 
that  he,  deponent,  saw  the  cattle  mentioned  in  said  certificate,  and  that  he  knows  that 
said  George  Sheidley's  statement  is  correct  and  true,  and  that  the  cattle  mentioned 
were  good,  as  stated,  and  the  estimate  of  weight  correct. 

JAMES  F.  ELLISON. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  30th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 

[Mr.  Bosler  explained  that  he  submitted  the  affidavits  of  all  these 
gentlemen,  because  they  were  away,  attending  to  business,  and  they  could 
not  be  present.] 

Fifth.  A  second  statement  from  James  F.  Ellison  : 

STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss  : 

James  F.  Ellison,  being  first  duly  sworn,  says  that  he  has  been  for  a  number  of  years 
past  engaged  in  the  cattle  business,  and  is  familiar  with  and  a  good  judge  of  stock  ; 
that  in  September,  1874,  one  William  M.  Hurst,  who  is  now  in  Texas,  delivered  to 
J.  H.  Bosler  three  thousand  five  hundred  head  of  cattle,  (two  thousand  head  being 
delivered  on  the  Platte  River,)  the  said  cattle  being  for  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone 
Indian  agencies. 

Deponent  says,  further,  that  he  saw  and  personally  examined  the  above-named  herd ; 
that  the  cattle  were  all  full  grown,  four  years  of  age  and  upward,  and  in  excellent 
condition,  steers  and  cows,  and  of  good  class  and  quality  in  every  respect,  and  their 
average  weight  he  estimated  at  about  1,000  pounds. 

JAMES  F.  ELLISON. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  31st  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 

Sixth.  Statement  of  H.  V.  Eedingtou  : 

SIDNEY,  July  28, 1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  turned  over  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  between  the  1st  day  of  April  and 
the  10th  day  of  May,  1875,  nine  hundred  and  eighty-seven  steers.  The  cattle  were 


346 

of  good  quality  and  of  full  age,  three  years  old  arid  upward  ;  about  two-thirds  of  them 
fours  and  rives,  which  would  weigh  1,100  pounds.  I  also  turned  over,  between  the 
dates  above  mentioned,  seven  hundred  and  eighty-seven  cows  of  good  quality,  four 
years  old  and  upward,  averaging  900  pounds.  There  were  fifty-eight  yearlings  which 
were  not  counted.  I  aimed  to  cut  the  yearlings  out,  but  failed  to  do  so.  About 
twenty-five  head  of  these  cattle  were  between  two  and  three  years  old ;  these  were 
half-breeds,  and  fully  as  good  as  the  other  cattle.  I  base  my  estimate  of  the  weigh- s  of 
the  cattle  upon  my  knowledge  of  the  weights  of  this  class  of  cattle,  having  been  en 
gaged  in  shipping  cattle  for  the  last  four  years. 

H.  V.  REDINGTON. 
STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County  : 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  28th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  D.  CARRIGAN, 

Probate  Judge. 

This  statement  refers  to  the  cattle  which  Lieutenant  Carpenter  and 
Louis  Keshaw  allude  to.  They  are  the  cattle  from  which  the  delivery  of 
the  14th  of  November  were  taken  from,  of  which  Lieutenant  Carpenter 
and  Louis  Eeshaw  made  certificates.  We  had  none  other  on  hand. 

Seventh.  Mr.  W.  C.  Irvine  was  present  when  the  cattle  were  turned 
over  to  us,  and  these  were  the  cattle  that  we  delivered  this  spring  on 
the  contract  made  with  Mr.  Paxton,  after  the  original  contract  had  been 
filled.  His  statement  and  that  of  Mr.  Lawrence  are  as  follows : 

KEITH'S  RANCH,  July  25,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  we  turned  over  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  on  the  Platte  River,  for  the  use 
of  the  Indian  contract,  two  hundred  and  forty-one  head  of  cattle,  steers  and  cows,  all 
three  and  four  year  olds.  The  cattle  were  of  good  quality  and  in  good  condition,  and 
wintered  in  this  country  two  winters.  The  cattle  were  turned  over  on  the  10th  of  May, 
1875,  and  were  driven  right  to  Red  Cloud  agency  for  issue.  We  also  saw  the  cattle 
turned  over  by  Mr.  Redington,  for  Adams,  Redington  &  Co.,  to  Mr.  Bosler,  in  April  and 
May — the  last  lot  on  the  18th  of  May — and  they  were  a  very  good  lot  of  cattle  and  in 
good  condition,  all  being  three  years  of  age  and  upward  but  thirty  head,  which  were 
good  half-breeds  two  and  a  half  years  of  age,  the  greater  part  of  the  whole  bunch 
being  four-year-old  steers.  I  would  estimate  the  weight  of  them  at  a  thousand  pounds 
or  over.  These,  to  our  knowledge,  were  driven  from  the  river  direct  to  Red  Cloud 
agency,  and  consisted  of  between  eighteen  and  nineteen  hundred  cattle. 

IRVINE  &  LAWRENCE. 
STATE  OF  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss : 

William  C.  Irvine,  being  first  duly  sworn,  says  that  he  is  a  member  of  the  firm  of 
Irvine  &  Lawrence,  above  named,  and  that  the  matters  and  facts  set  forth  in  the  fore 
going  certificate  are  true  of  his  own  personal  knowledge. 

WILLIAM  C.  IRVINE. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  27th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Rotary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 

Eighth.  Statement  of  Win.  Guitermau,  of  the  firm  of  Kent  &  Gruiter- 
man.  He  lives  in  Chsyenue,  and  you  can  see  him  there  : 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  July  27,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  sold  and  delivered  to  J.  H.  Bosler,  for  use  of  the  Indian  con 
tract,  at  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  on  the  North  Platte  River,  five  hundred  and  seventy- 
five  head  of  cattle  on  the  26th  day  of  May.  1875.  These  cattle  were  of  No.  1  quality 
and  in  good  condition  ;  all  three  and  four  and  five  years  of  age,  wintered  in  this  Terri 
tory  one,  two,  and  three  winters.  They  were  all  a  good  quality  of  beef-cattle,  and 
could  have  sold  them  to  the  butchers  of  Cheyenne  and  Denver  for  immediate  killing. 

WM.  GUITERMAN, 

For  Kent  $•  Guiterman. 
TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Laramie,  ss  : 

On  this  27th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875,  before  me  personally  appeared  William  Guiter- 
mau,  personally  known  to  me  to  be  the  identical  person  who  executed  the  within  cer- 


347 

fcificate,  and,  being  by  me  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  made  oath  that  the  facts  set 
forth  in  the  said  certificate  are  true. 

Witness  mv  hand  and  notarial  seal. 

[SEAL.]  L.  C.  STEVENS, 

Notary  Public. 

In  connection  with  this  statement,  I  will  say  that  cattle  purchased 
in  the  spring  cost  a  great  deal  more  than  cattle  do  now,  and  that  is  the 
reason  we  would  not  furnish  them  at  the  contract-price. 

Ninth.  Statement  of  G.  McCarty : 

TATE  or  NEBRASKA, 

Cheyenne  County,  ss : 

C.  McCarty,  being  first  duly  sworn,  says  that  for  about  ten  years  last  past  he  has 
been  engaged  in  the  cattle  business  in  Colorado,  Western  Nebraska,  and  Wyoming  ; 
that  he  is  familiar  with  all  the  brands  used  in  Western  Nebraska,  and  is  cattle- 
inspector  for  the  district  controlled  by  the  Western  Nebraska  Stock  Association  ;  that 
in  August,  and  at  other  times  in  1874,  J.  H.  Bosler  received  herds  of  cattle  from  one 
James  Ellison  and  various  other  parties ;  that  he,  deponent,  looked  through  these 
herds  for  stray  cattle,  as  is  customary  with  cattle-men  when  herds  are  going  to  the 
agencies ;  that  said  herds  were  by  him  carefully  examined  for  the  above  reason,  and 
that  all  the  cattle  in  said  herds  so  received  by  J.  H.  Bosler  were  of  good  quality  ;  and 
deponent  further  says  that  all  the  cows  and  steers  in  said  herds  were  of  good  class  ; 
and  all  the  cattle  received  by  said  Bosler,  and  examined  by  him  as  aforesaid,  were,  in 
his,  deponent's,  estimation,  splendid  cattle. 

And  deponent  further  says  that  he  saw  other  large  lots  of  cattle  turned  over  to 
range-men  by  parties  who  had  driven  them  to  this  country,  and  that  these  lots  were 
invariably  of  a  poorer  class  and  lower  grade  than  any  turned  over  to  and  received  by 
said  J.  H.  Bosler. 

c.  MCCARTY. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  27th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 

This  is  an  officer  appointed  by  the  governor  of  Nebraska  to  inspect 
cattle.  His  business  is  to  inspect  cattle,  and,  if  there  are  any  stray  cattle, 
to  get  them  out. 

Tenth.  Statement  of  James  Callahau,  contractor  for  furnishing  beef  at 
the  Sidney,  Nebraska,  barracks  : 

I  do  certify  that  I  have  seen  the  herds  of  cattle,  or  many  of  them,  purchased  by  J.  H 
Bosler  for  the  use  of  the  Indian  contract  of  1874  and  1875,  as  they  passed  on  their  way 
to  the  Platte  River,  their  place  of  delivery.  I  am  engaged  in  the  cattle  trade,  and  was 
looking  through  the  herds  for  range-cattle,  to  see  if  any  were  being  driven  off,  and  can 
testify  that  these  cattle  were  of  good  quality  and  in  good  condition,  full  grown,  four 
years  old  and  upward;  would  estimate  the  weight  at  from  nine  hundred  to  eleven  hun 
dred  pounds.  I  am  a  cattle  dealer  or  raiser,  and  am  a  good  judge  of  the  weight  and 
quality  of  cattle,  having  been  engaged  in  the  trade  for  three  years. 

JAMES  CALLAHAN. 

PHILIP  MUSHEID. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  30th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  R.  BALLOU, 

Notary  Public,  Cheyenne  County,  Nebraska. 

.Eleventh.  Statement  of  Dr.  S.  A.  Snow,  physician  of  Ked  Cloud 
agency  : 

AUGUST  4,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  am  and  have  been  physician  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  for 
the  past  fourteen  mouths,  and  have  been  present  at  the  agency  scales  frequently  when 
the  cattle  were  delivered  by  J.  H.  Bosler  to  Agent  Saville.  That  the  cattle  were  usu 
ally  of  good  quality  and  in  good  condition,  full  grown  and  of  full  age,  and  always 
weighed  on  the  agency  scales.  That  I  was  present  at  the  agency  on  the  14th  day  of 
November,  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here ;  wras  present  at  the  issue  on  that  day,  and 
saw  the  cattle  received  that  day,  and  they  were  all  of  a  good  size ;  it  was  during  a 


348 

snow-storm  that  they  were  delivered.  The  hair  was  rough,  but  the  cattle  were  large 
^ind  in  fair  condition.  They  were  weighed  by  Agent  Saville.  This  was  done  publicly',; 
any  one  could  have  taken  down  the  weights  if  they  had  desired  to  do  so.  I  am  satis 
fied  that  there  were  steers  in  this  lot  that  would  have  weighed  twelve  hundred 
pounds,  others  eight  or  nine  hundred.  And  that  I  was  also  present  at  the  issue  on  the 
14th  of  May,  and  that  these  cattle  were  also  weighed  on  the  agency  scales ;  that  in 
this  lot  I  noticed  some  yearlings,  twenty  or  thirty  in  number;  saw  the  Indians  and 
half-breeds  rope  some  of  them  and  draw  them  out  of  the  corral,  and  take  many  of 
them  away  before  this  lot  of  cattle  was  weighed  and  received  by  the  agent ;  that  this 
was  a  good  lot  of  cattle,  in  fair  condition,  full  grown,  and  of  good  size. 

S.  A.  SNOW, 

Agency  Physician. 

CAMP  ROBINSON,  NEBR., 

August  8,  1875. 

I,  J.  McB.  Stembel,  second  lieutenant  Ninth  Infantry,  judge-advocate,  general  court- 
martial,  certify  that  S.  A.  Snow,  whose  signature  is  affixed  to  the  within  affidavit, 
came  before  me  and  made  oath  that  the  matters  stated  in  said  paper  are  true  to  the 
best  of  his  knowledge  and  belief. 

J.  McB.  STEMBEL, 
Second  Lieutenant  Ninth  Infantry,  Judge.Advocate,  General  Court-Martial. 

These  are  all  the  affidavits  in  regard  to  cattle.  The  following  affida" 
vits  show  the  size  and  weight  and  quality  of  the  hides,  and  also  go  to 
show  the  size  and  quality  of  the  cattle: 

Twelfth.  Statement  of  B.  F.  Walters,  post-trader  at  Eed  Cloud,  pre 
decessor  of  Mr.  Yates : 

STATE  OF  PENNSYLVANIA, 

Cumberland  County,  ss : 

Before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  and  State,  personally  appeared  B* 
F.  Walters,  who,  being  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  deposes  and  says  that  he  was  one 
of  the  post-traders  at  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency  from  12th  April,  1874,  to  12th  April, 
1875,  during  which  time  he  received  from  the  Indians  five  thousand  one  hundred  and 
two  hides.  These  hides  averaged  in  weight,  in  Omaha  and  Chicago,  "  in  flint,"  heads, 
tails,  and  legs  off,  24  pounds  each,  and  brought  gross,  $5.21,  and  netted  $4.46  each. 
That  he  saw  the  most  of  the  cattle  that  these  hides  were  taken  from  ;  that  they  were 
a  fair  average  quality  of  cattle  of  four-year  olds  and  upward.  That  he  was  present  at 
the  agency  when  Professor  Marsh  visited  there,  and  received  a  great  many  of  the  hides 
of  the  cattle  that  Professor  Marsh  saw  issued,  and,  to  the  best  of  his  knowledge,  there 
was  not  one  of  these  cattle  younger  than  four  years  old,  and  that  they  were  all  weighed 
t>efore  they  were  issued  to  the  Indians. 

B,  F.  WALTERS. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  before  me  this  29th  day  of  June,  1875. 

[SEAL.]  A.  L.  SPONSLER, 

Notary  Public. 

Thirteenth.  Statement  of  F.  D.  Yates,  trader  at  Eed  Cloud  agency, 
successor  of  Mr.  Walters  : 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  August  6,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  am  a  trader  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  received  and  traded 
from  the  Indians,  from  April  16,  1875,  to  the  1st  day  of  July,  1875,  eighteen  hundred 
and  seventy-seven  beef-bides.  These  were  full  size,  from  full-grown  cattle,  four  years 
old  and  upward,  I  should  judge ;  they  weighed  in  market  on  an  average  about  25 
pounds,  "flint-dry  hides."  I  received  the  hides  from  the  cattle  killed  to  supply  the 
troops  at  Camp  Sheridan,  for  the  past  year.  These  hides  were  not  as  large  as  those  I 
received  from  the  Indians.  The  butcher  at  Camp  Sheridan  told  me  the  cattle  these 
hides  were  taken  from  averaged  550  pounds  net,  or  1,100  pounds  gross,  in  beef. 

I  have  passed  through  the  herds  of  cattle  for  the  supply  of  beef  at  Red  Cloud  and 
Whetstone  agencies,  and  personally  saw  many  of  the  cattle.  They  were  of  good  quality 
and  size,  four  years  old  and  upward,  and,  from  what  I  know  of  cattle,  would  judge 
them  to  weigh  a  thousand  pounds  and  upward.  Was  present  at  many  of  the  issues  at 
Red  Cloud,  and  found  the  cattle  always  good  and  of  full  size.  I  received  out  of  the 
issue  of  May  14,  one  hundred  and  sixty  hides  ;  they  were  from  good-size,  full-grown 
cattle.  The  cattle  are  always  weighed  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  when  received  by 
the  agent  from  the  contractor. 

F.  D.  YATES. 


349 

I  would  further  state  that  I  have  handled  mauy  hides  for  the  last  eight  years,  and 
that  when  dry  Hint,  to  weigh  25  pounds,  must  consequently  be  from  iill-grown  cattle. 

F.  D.  YATES. 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  Geo.  Knox,  postmaster  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  Nebr., 
the  above  F.  D.  Yates,  who,  being  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  declares  the  above 
statement  to  be  true  to  the  best  of  his  belief. 

GEO.  KNOX,  P.  M. 
TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Laramie,  ss  : 

On  this  25th  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1875,  before  me,  L.  C.  Stevens,  a  notary  public  in 
and  for  said  county,  in  the  Territory  aforesaid,  personally  came  F.  D.  Yates,  who  is 
known  to  me  to  be  the  identical  person  who  is  described  in  and  who  signed  the  fore 
going  certificates,  and  being  by  me  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  made  oath  that  the 
statements  set  forth  in  the  said  certificates  subscribed  by  him  are  true. 
Witness  my  hand  and  notarial  seal. 
[SEAL.]  L.  C.  STEVENS, 

Notary  Public. 

Fourteenth.  Statement  of  J.  W.  Dear,  post-trader  at  Bed  Cloud  agency : 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  August  4,  1875. 

This  is  to  certify  that  I  am  a  trader,  and  have  been  for  eighteen  months  past,  at  Red 
Cloud  agency;  and  that  from  the  1st  day  of  September,  1874,  to  the  1st  day  of  July, 
1875,  I  received  and  traded  from  the  Indians  4,845  hides  ;  that  these  hides  came  from 
full-grown  cattle,  and  were,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  four  years  of  age  and 
upward ;  and  that  these  same  hides  brought,  on  an  average,  in  market  $5.70  each ; 
that  I  received  the  hides  from  the  cattle  killed  and  furnished  to  the  military  postr 
Camp  Robinson,  and  that  they  were  not  as  large  as  those  received  from  the  Indian 
cattle.  The  cattle  were  always  weighed  on  the  agency  scales.  I  received  of  the  issue 
of  cattle  on  the  14th  day  of  May  three  hundred  and  one  hides ;  and  that  my  brother 
was  up  to  where  Louis  Richard  was  trading;  and  that  he  (Louis  R.)  received 
somewhere  about  twenty  hides  out  of  the  entire  issue.  I  was  present  at  the  agency 
on  November  14,  1874,  When  Professor  Marsh  was  here ;  did  not  go  to  cattle-corral ; 
did  not  see  the  beef  issued  on  that  day,  but  received  at  least  one-half  of  the  hides.  I 
find  that  my  books  show  on  the  21st  of  November  I  shipped  one  hundred  and  five 
hides,  that  brought  in  market  $6.09;  and  on  the  1st  of  December,  three  hundred  and 
seventy-seven  hides,  which  brought  $6.02.  The  hides  from  the  issue  of  November  14 
were  in  those  two  lots.  None  but  full-grown  and  large  cattle  would  yield  a  hide  worth 
this  money. 

J.  W.  DEAR. 

CAMP  ROBINSON,  NEBR.,  August  8, 1875. 

I,  J.  McB.  Stembel,  second  lieutenant,  judge-advocate  general  court-martial,  certify 
that  J.  W.  Dear,  whose  signature  is  affixed  to  the  within  affidavit,  came  before  me  and 
made  oath  that  the  matter  stated  in  the  within  paper  is  true,  to  the  best  of  his  knowl 
edge  and  belief. 

J.  McB.  STEMBEL, 
Second  Lieutenant  Ninth  Infantry,  J.  A.  G.  C.  M. 

Fifteenth.  This  is  an  abstract  of  the  foregoing  affidavits  in  the  form 
of  a  statement,  signed  by  myself: 

f 

In  connection  with  these  affidavits,  I  submit  the  following  tabulated  statement  o 
their  contents : 

Number  of  cattle  purchased  for  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  which  were 
classified  as  follows : 

Beeves 14,328 

Cows 3,162 

17, 490 

Number  of  cattle  delivered  on  the  Paxton  contract,  as  per  receipts 

given  by  the  agent,  now  on  file  in  the  Interior  Department : 

For  Red  Cloud  agency 9,423 

For  Spotted  Tail  agency 7,  386 

16,809 

Excess  of  purchases  over  deliveries 681 


350 

Leaving  on  hand  on  the  1st  of  July,  1875,  681  head.  Of  these,  73  perished,  as  we 
found  their  carcasses  ou  the  range,  and  the  halauce  were  lost  and  stolen  hy  the 
Indians. 

You  will  also  notice  here  the  small  percentage  of  mortality,  which  would  indicate, 
taking  into  consideration  the  severity  of  the  winter,  an  exceedingly  strong  and  healthy 
lot  of  cattle. 

These  affidavits  show  the  following  accounts  of  hides  taken  from  these  cattle  and 
sold  to  the  traders : 

Mr.  E.  F.  Walters,  trader  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  from  September  1,  1874,  to 

April  12,  1875,  purchased ." 3, 187 

Mr.  J.  W.  Dear,  trader  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  from  September  1,  1874,  to  July 

1,  1875,  purchased 4,  845 

F.  D.  Yates,  successor  to  Mr.  Walters,  purchased,  from  April  16,  1875,  to  July 

1,  1875... 1,877 

Total 9,909 

From  this  deduct  the  number  of  cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency 9,423 

And  there  will  be  an  excess  of  hides  for  this  year  of 486 

This  excess  we  account  for  by  the  hides  taken  from  the  cattle  stolen,  and  a  probable 
error  in  the  estimate  of  the  number  received  by  B.  F.  Walters  during  the  continuance 
of  the  Paxton  contract,  as  you  will  observe  his  affidavit  covers  the  entire  time  he  was 
in  business,  from  April  12,  1874,  to  April  12,  1875,  and  the  number  of  hides  purchased 
during  the  entire  time  was  5,102,  being  an  average  of  425  per  month,  which  is  the 
manner  in  which  we  arrived  at  the  number  purchased  by  him  during  the  Paxton 
contract. 

I  will  also  call  your  attention  in  this  connection  to  the  following  facts  :  The  issue  of 
May  14  consisted  of  456  head.  Mr.  Dear's  affidavit  and  books  show  that  he  received  301 
hides  from  that  issue,  and  Mr.  Yates  received  160,  making  a  total  of  461,  and  all  from 
full-grown  cattle.  Now,  these  are  the  same  cattle  purchased  from  Mr.  Reddington, 
which  he  testifies  would  average  1,011  pounds,  and  about  which  Lieutenant  Carpenter 
makes  a  certificate  that  there  were  only  three  head  of  oxen,  and  Louis  Reshaw  that 
he  purchased  100  yearling  hides.  Now,  the  facts  are  that  Louis  Reshaw  got  no  hides 
out  of  this  issue,  and  if  he  received  any  at  all,  it  was  hides  taken  off  calves  and  year 
lings  the  Indians  had  been  accumulating,  as  the  traders  will  not  purchase  them,  they 
having  an  established  price,  and  the  Indians  will  not  discriminate  with  them  between 
a  full-grown  hide  and  a  calf-skin. 

I  will  also  call  your  attention  to  the  high  respectability  and  business  standing  of  the 
parties  making  these  affidavits.  They  are  all  well-known  cattle-dealers  and  business 
men.  Two  of  them  are  the  authorized  cattle-inspectors  of  the  State  of  Nebraska,  ap 
pointed  by  the  governor;  and  for  the  business  integrity  and  standing  of  all  these 
gentlemen  I  refer  you  to  the  First  National  Bank  of  Omaha,  Nebr. ;  the  First  National 
and  Mastin  Bank  of  Kansas  City ;  the  banks  and  bankers  of  Austin,  Tex.  ;  Kountze 
Bros.,  and  Donuell,  Lawson  &  Co.,  bankers,  of  New  York  City. 

J.  W.  BOSLER. 

AUGUST  11, 1875. 

Sixteenth.  Letter  from  Mr.  H.  Kountze,  of  the  First  National  Bank, 
Omaha,  Nebraska,  in  regard  to  the  business  qualifications  and  integrity 
of  the  persons  making  the  foregoing  affidavits  : 

FIRST  NATIONAL  BANK, 

Omaha,  Nebr.,  July  28, 1875. 
To  whom  it  may  concern  : 

I  take  pleasure  in  stating  that  we  have  had  business  transactions  with  the  following- 
named  gentlemen,  to  wit,  S.  Mabry,  Geo.  W.  Littlefield,  and  George  Sheidly,  and 
favorably  know  them  for  several  years,  and  know  James  Ellison  by  reputation. 

These  gentlemen  are  largely  engaged  in  the  Texas  cattle-trade,  and  we  think  any 
statements  made  by  them  in  regard  to  their  business  would  be  entitled  to  full  credence, 
they  being  the  leading  and  heaviest  cattle-dealers  that  find  their  way  to  this  market, 
and  we  believe  them  thoroughly  reliable. 
Very  respectfully, 

H.  KOUNTZE. 


351 

Seventeenth.  Letter  from  J.  D.  Bevier,  late  United  States  Indian 
inspector : 

GRAND  RAPIDS,  MICH., 

July  31, 1875. 

DEAR  SIR:  Your  favor  of  the  27th  instant,  dated  and  mailed  at  Sidney,  Nebr.,  is  just 
received.  You  ask  me  to  forward  to  you  a  sworn  statement  of  my  inspection  of  your 
cattle  last  summer.  I  am  informed  that  the  commission  now  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency 
to  investigate  the  charges  of  Professor  Marsh  will  call  on  me  for  my  testimony  on  their 
return.  When  they  do  so,  I  will  state  that  I  did  inspect  your  herd  on  the  North  Platte, 
last  September,  and  that  I  "  found  them  of  good  size,  condition,  and  quality." 

It  seems  to  me  better  that  my  testimony  should  be  all  together,  rather  than  in  detached 
portions. 

You  are  at  liberty  to  read  or  give  this  letter  to  the  commissioners. 
Very  respectfullv,  yours,  &c., 

J.  D.  BEVIER, 

Late  United  States  Indian  Inspector. 
J.  H.  BOSLER,  Esq. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  please  refer  to  the  letters  which  indicate  the  purchase 
of  cattle  that  were  issued  on  the  14th  of  November,  1874,  and  May 
14,  1875. 

A.  The  cattle  of  the  14th  of  November,  1874,  were  purchased  in  the 
summer.  They  were  inspected  by  Dr.  Bevier.  That  letter  does  not  refer 
to  the  particular  purchase  of  cattle  which  were  issued  November, 
1874,  and  May,  1875.  These  affidavits  refer  to  cattle  purchased  for  all 
our  contracts.  Mr.  Reddington's  and  Mr.  Irvine's  affidavits  refer  to  the 
cattle  which  were  delivered  on  the  November,  1874,  and  May,  1875, 
issues. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  for  those  cattle  you  bought  from  Reddington  ? 

A.  Seventeen  dollars  for  cows,  and  twenty-five  for  steers.  I  pro-rated 
them,  making  $21  per  head. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  We  desire  to  know  from  you  whether  Dr.  Saville  has  any  interest 
of  any  kind  whatever  in  your  purchases  of  cattle  ? 

A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  receipted  to  you  for  cattle  which  he  did  not  get  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  never. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  given  you  a  receipt  for  more  pounds  of  cattle  than  he 
actually  received  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  he  never  did. 

Q.  Is  there  any  arrangement  between  you  and  him,  directly  or  indi 
rectly,  by  which  he  derives  any  benefit  from  purchases  of  beef  from  you  ? 

A.  None  in  the  least.  I  never  saw  Dr.  Saville  from  the  time  he  took 
charge  of  the  agency  until  I  met  him  in  Washington  this  spring. 

Q.  Please  state,  Mr.  Bosler,  the  contract  prices. 

A.  Two  thirty  and  one-thirtieth,  from  the  1st  of  September,  1874,  to 
the  1st  of  July,  1875,  for  a  designated  amount  at  each  agency.  The 
next  contract  was  at  3  cents  per  pound  for  these  two  agencies,  (Red 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail.)  After  the  contract  was  filled  which  extended 
down  to  the  1st  of  July,  1875,  we  made  another  contract,  which  began 
July  1st,  at  $2.4GJ  per  hundred,  and  this  is  the  contract  under  which 
we  are  delivering  cattle  now. 

Q.  Have  you  named  all  the  persons  of  whom  you  bought  cattle  to  fill 
the  Bed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agency  contracts  for  1874? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  are  all  included. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  per  head  to  Mabry  9 

A.  Eighteen  dollars  for  the  beeves,  and  from  $10  to  $12  for  the  cows. 


352 

I  paid  Ellison  the  same  prices,  and  he  states  the  number  of  cows.  I 
paid  Littlefield  the  same  prices,  and  he  also  states  the  number  of  cows. 
To  Irvine  &  Lawrence  I  gave  $20  per  head  for  all.  To  Keddington  I 
gave  $21  on  an  average,  but  it  came  to  half  and  half  at  $21;  but  we 
averaged  it,  and  gave  him  $25  for  the  beeves  and  $17  for  the  cows,  which 
deduction  was  actually  made.  Kent  &  Guitemann  we  gave  $18  all  round, 
beeves  and  cows;  and  to  Hurst  we  gave  $18  all  round.  There  is  one 
thing  I  would  like  you  to  satisfy  yourselves  of,  and  that  is  that  the  con 
tract  can  be  filled  fairly  and  honestly  at  the  prices  named. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Bosler,  what  is  your  brother's  interest  in  this  contract  ? 

A.  He  has  no  interest  whatever;  he  never  had  any;  it  has  always 
been  a  question  of  liberality  with  myself. 

Q.  What  had  Foreman  to  do  when  he  made  this  contract;  that  is, 
when  he  made  the  bid? 

A.  Nothing  at  all. 

Q.  Was  it  understood  between  him  and  you  that  if  he  got  the  contract 
there  was  to  be  some  interest  between  you  ? 

A.  Well,  he  bid  to  make  money  on  it. 

Q.  What  was  paid  him  to  assign  the  contract? 

A.  He  had  an  interest. 

Q.  How  much  of  an  interest  ? 

A.  I  would  not  like  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Are  your  cattle  watered  within  eight  miles  of  this  agency  ? 

A.  AVe  pass  a  small  stream  coming  up  from  the  camp. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  can  your  cattle  get  water  within  eight  miles 
of  this  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  they  cannot;  they  are  driven  into  the  corral  without  being 
watered,  and  in  the  winter-time  they  cannot  get  water,  this  stream 
being  frozen. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  difficulty  with  the  Government  in  regard 
to  your  contracts?  Have  you  had  any  such  controversy  or  difficulties 
with  the  Government  as  would  render  you  liable  to  be  excluded  as  a 
regular  beef-bidder  ? 

A.  None  whatever.  That  is  a  statement  made  by  Mr.  William  Welsh, 
of  Philadelphia,  which  was  occasioned  by  a  personal  controversy  which 
we  had.  He  is  a  very  bitter  and  vindictive  enemy  of  mine,  and  he 
refers  to  the  clause  in  the  advertisement,  "  that  no  contract  should  be 
assigned  or  sublet  without  the  written  consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior."  That  clause  has  been  in  the  advertisement  for  three  years, 
and  two  out  of  those  three  I  have  been  a  contractor.  I  have  been  a  bid 
der  always,  and  when  I  was  the  lowest  bidder  I  was  awarded  the  con 
tract.  I  am  the  lowest  bidder  at  two  places  this  year.  I  made  the 
lowest  bid  for  Fort  Berthold,  and  have  been  awarded  the  contracts  by 
the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  The  matter  was  never  thought  of 
by  the  parties  awarding  the  contract,  but  it  has  been  paraded  by 
Mr.  Welsh  in  his  letters.  He  was  formerly  the  president  of  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  other  persons  besides  you  and  Paxton  have  direct,  possible, 
or  contingent  profits  in  that  contract  of  1874? 

A.  Mr.  A.  H.  Wilder,  of  Saint  Paul,  Minn.,  Mr.  J.  T.  Baldwin,  of 
Council  Bluff's,  Iowa,  and  Mr.  D.  W.  C.  Wheeler,  of  New  York.  These 
are  the  only  parties. 


r          353 

Q.  Has  any  money  or  other  consideration  been  paid  or  promised  to 
any  person  in  consideration  of  your  obtaining  the  contract? 

A.  Never  a  cent ;  and  farther,  I  never  obtained  a  contract  which  was 
not  let  to  the  lowest  bidder.  I  have  given  the  names  of  all  the  parties 
having  any  interest  in  this  contract. 

Q.  Has  Mr.  John  Delano  any  interest  whatever  in  it  ? 

A.  He  has  not. 

By  Mr.  ATHEETON  : 

Q.  Was  this  Foreman  contract  transferred  to  you  or  to  Mr.  Paxton  ? 

A.  It  was  transferred  to  Mr.  Paxton  by  the  approval  of  the  Depart 
ment,  and  the  reason  the  contract  was  assigned  to  Mr.  Paxton  was  be 
cause  there  was  a  heavy  bond  to  be  given,  and  I  wanted  to  reserve 
myself  for  a  bondsman.  If  it  had  not  been  for  that,  I  would  have  had 
the  contract  myself.  The  sureties  are  Joseph  arid  J.  W.  Bosler.  That 
was  done  in  order  to  give  the  bond  ourselves,  as  it  required  a  very  heavy 
bond — $150,000.  I  put  the  money  into  this  contract,  every  dollar  of  it. 
I  cannot  say  exactly  that  I  put  it  in ;  I  furnished  it,  but  each  one  of 
these  parties  interested  were  to  furnish  money  in  proportion  to  their 
interest.  I  proposed  to  furnish  the  money  at  10  per  cent,  interest,  which 
they  accepted.  Nobody  but  myself  has  a  dollar  in  the  contract,  except 
in  the  way  of  paying  interest  to  me.  It  is  a  loan  to  the  company.  The 
profits  are  divided.  My  brother  gets  whatever  I  pay  him.  My  object 
in  the  matter  is  to  get  the  interest  on  my  money. 

[At  this  point  the  examination  became  more  conversational,  Mr.  J. 
Herman  Bosler,  who  was  present,  also  answering  questions  of  the  com 
missioners  about  matters  connected  with  the  cattle  which  came  under 
his  personal  observation  or  within  his  personal  knowledge.  Mr.  J.  H. 
Bosler  was  examined  informally  as  follows :] 

Q.  You  spoke  of  seventy- three  cattle  being  lost  last  winter  on  the 
plains. 

A.  That  was  during  those  severe  storms.  We  found  the  carcasses  of 
seventy-three  which  we  knew  had  been  lost.  We  were  out  about  six 
hundred  between  December  1  and  March  1.  Very  few  cattle  perished 
until  the  storms  of  January  and  February.  The  cattle  were  in  a  very 
fine  condition  in  January  and  February.  We  must  have  had  at  least 
five  thousand,  and  perhaps  more,  from  which  those  cattle  were  lost.  It 
was  the  cold  weather  that  caused  them  to  get  lost,  and  they  were  not 
in  a  thriving  condition.  Sometimes  cattle  fret  from  one  cause  or  an 
other.  One  of  those  had  broken  a  limb  or  had  knocked  off  a  horn,  and  of 
course  they  could  not  get  through  the  bad  spell  of  weather. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  effect  upon  the  rest  of  the  herd  of  such  a  state 
of  weather  as  would  cause  seventy-three  to  perish  f 

A.  The  cattle,  during  January  and  February,  wrere  thriving,  doing 
very  well  indeed.  They  did  not  lose  any  flesh  during  the  mouth  of  Jan 
uary  ;  they  may  have  lost  during  the  mouth  of  February.  There  is 
plenty  of  grass  during  the  winter,  protected  by  the  snow,  for  the  cattle 
to  graze  on.  The  snow  falls  always  with  a  heavy  wrind,  and  it  is  blown 
off  into  the  low  country.  If  it  would  lie  on  a  level  the  cattle  could  not 
live  at  all. 

Was  there  any  irregularity  on  account  of  storms  in  the  delivery  of 
cattle  here  last  winter? 

A.  I  guess  there  was.  I  delivered  cattle  during  the  latter  part  of 
December  to  supply  the  agency  for  January.  In  the  middle  of  Jan 
uary  Saville  issued  the  cattle  for  the  balance  of  the  month,  and  ordered 
me  to  have  the  cattle  here  by  the  first  of  February.  I  sent  that  order 
2:3  i  F 


354 

over  to  the  herder,  and  the  best  men  in  the  herd  started  three  times 
with  these  cattle  and  they  invaribly  got  back  from  him  into  the  herd, 
and  I  don't  think  he  got  here  until  about  the  9th  or  10th  of  February. 
When  they  came  in  I  was  present.  There  were  seven  or  eight  hundred. 
The  entire  lot  was  issued  to  the  Indians,  and  they  had  their  issue  from 
the  1st  of  February.  There  were  seven  hundred  and  one  cattle. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  those  cattle  when  they  were  issued  ? 

A.  They  were  in  fair  condition.  They  were  a  fair  lot  of  cattle;  they 
were  large  cattle.  We  always  keep  back  our  best  cattle  for  winter.  We 
take  out  all  cattle  that  are  not  doing  well  and  keep  the  strongest  cattle, 
and  let  them  go  through  the  winter.  We  have  always  found  this  by 
experience;  and  a  good,  strong,  healthy  animal,  put  on  good  pasture, 
will  go  through  the  winter  well. 

Q.  You  have  no  difficulty,  then,  in  sorting  them  out  into  separate 
herds  ? 

A.  We  never  sort  them  out.  Our  way,  in  bringing  in  cattle  for  an 
issue,  is  to  cut  off  a  bunch.  These  cattle  we  have  now  on  the  range 
will  be  better  a  month  hence;  therefore  these  cattle  will  be  best  for  the 
winter.  Cattle  that  we  will  receive  now  of  course  are  not  as  fleshy  as 
those  we  have. 

Q.  So  you  have  been  delivering  cattle  that  you  would  have  preferred 
to  hold  on  until  fall ! 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  we  had  no  other. 

Q.  Could  you  not  take  your  different  herds  and  make  up  a  herd  that 
will  keep  over  the  winter? 

A.  No,  sir ;  we  never  pick  from  the  entire  herd. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  can  do  so,  do  you  not  desire  to  deliver  cows  before 
spring  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  We  aim  to  deliver  cows  before  they  drop  their  calves — in 
the  fall  and  during  the  summer. 

Q.  I  suppose  cows  that  are  with  calves  are  not  good  beef. 

A.  The  Indians  prefer  them.  Cows  bring  just  as  much  in  market  as 
beeves.  In  our  whole  contract,  we  never  bought  yearlings.  There  are 
a  few  that  will  naturally  run  on  with  the  cows,  and  it  is  almost  impos 
sible  to  get  them  away.  The  parties  that  delivered  them  to  us  failed  to 
get  them  away,  and  they  were  brought  up  with  our  cattle,  but  are  not 
in  the  contract.  I  did  not  pay  for  them,  and  did  not  count  them.  We 
use  them  in  camp,  or  give  them  to  the  Indians,  as  they  may  come  along. 
To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  we  did  not  have  to  exceed  thirty  yearlings 
in  our  entire  lot,  which  we  purchased  from  those  Texas  men.  I  have  no 
definite  knowledge  on  this  subject  at  all.  We  bought  the  Eeddington 
cattle  this  year,  in  which  there  were  fifty-eight  yearlings;  but  those 
1  paid  nothing  for,  and  Mr.  Eeddingtou  has  sworn  that  he  received 
nothing  for  them.  These  came  over  here,  and  the  majority  of  them 
were  killed  by  the  Indians  before  they,got  into  the  corral.  In  regard  to 
these  yearlings,  there  is  never  any  necessity  for  them,  because  we  were 
always  ahead  of  the  average.  By  an  arrangement  with  the  Department 
we  agreed  upon  an  average.  I  think  it  was  1,050  for  the  last  six  months 
and  850  for  the  first.  At  any  rate,  we  agreed  upon  925  for  the  year. 

Q.  What  would  you  understand  could  be  included  in  such  an  average; 
what  kind  of  cattle? 

A.  Anything  that  was  merchantable  beef,  as  the  contract  did  not 
mention  any  particular  ages.  Until  within  the  last  two  years  the  con 
tract  called  for  steers,  but  since  that  time  it  has  been  merchantable 
beef.  This  year  it  is  merchantable  Texas  cattle,  to  average  not  less 
than  850  pounds. 


355 

Q.  What  do  cattle  men  ordinarily  understand  by  merchantable  cattle? 

A.  Cattle  that  are  healthy  and  fit  for  beef.  Of  course  they  would 
not  consider  it  anything  that  is  poor  or  in  unhealthy  condition. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  a  steer  in  good,  healthy  condition  that  would 
not  weigh  over  600  pounds? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  we  don't  agree  that  every  steer  shall  weigh  1,000  pounds, 
but  that  the  average  of  the  herd  will  be  that. 

Q.  Suppose  you  make  a  contract  with  the  Government  to  furnish 
5,400,000  pounds  of  beef,  without  any  specification  in  the  contract  as  to 
any  size  the  beeves  may  be,  how  would  there  be  the  most  money  in  the 
contract  to  you,  in  furnishing  large  or  small  cattle? 

A.  Large  cattle,  of  course.  The  most  money  would  be  in  furnishing 
cows,  but  we  cannot  do  it,  because  we  cannot  buy  them,  and  we  cannot 
use  them  in  the  winter  time.  But  we  can  use  from  one-quarter  to  one- 
fifth  cows  in  a  contract  to  advantage,  and  it  is  the  most  profitable.  We 
can  only  get  the  number  of  cows  that  come  with  a  herd,  and  our  custom 
is  to  purchase  a  herd  if  it  suits  us.  There  was  but  one  stampede,  and 
that  was  last  fall,  and  but  two  that  I  have  ever  heard  of  in  the  country. 
I  have  been  here  three  years,  and  there  has  been  but  two  in  that  time. 
The  other  one  was  winter  before  last.  It  was  occasioned  by  a  fox 
getting  into  the  herd  at  night.  This  was  a  Government  herd,  which  had 
been  driven  in  that  day.  They  were  all  gathered  up  again  except  about 
thirty-three.  They  were  traced  across  White  River.  They  did  not  go 
into  our  herd.  The  stampede  occurred  in  the  evening  They  had  issued 
the  cattle,  just  as  you  have  seen  to-day,  and  were  leading  the  herd  up 
the  creek,  and  the  cattle  were  turned  out  here  in  the  evening,  and  we 
got  our  receipt.  And  when  they  had  got  through  issuing,  on  the  way 
going  up,  they  lost  some  of  their  cattle.  They  did  not  know  it  until  the 
next  evening,  when  the  herder  counted  the  cattle  and  found  he  was 
out  some,  and  the  agent  sent  men  out  to  hunt  them.  They  trailed  them 
to  the  Platte.  Our  herd  was  on  the  Platte.  There  were  none  of  our  men 
that  saw  them  come  in.  The  question  was  to  find  out  ho\v  they  came, 
there.  We  went  into  the  herd  and  found  them  covered  with  dung,  which 
showed  that  they  had  run.  They  must  have  gone  all  over  the  country. 
We  returned  one  hundred  and  fifty  altogether.  I  don't  know  how  many 
were  lost.  We  returned  an  equal  number,  supposed  to  be  of  equal 
weight.  Wre  did  not  pretend  to  return  the  identical  cattle. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  make  any  new  purchases  to  supply  the  loss  by 
stampede  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  He  has  no  power  to  do  so.  Sometimes  cattle  will  drop 
out  and  we  can't  find  them,  and.  of  course,  we  think  the  Indians  got 
them.  The  Indians  rarely  take  any  out  of  our  herd;  they  are  pretty 
fair  in  that  respect.  Some  of  them  killed  some  cattle  last  fall  when  tliey 
returned  from  hunting  on  the  Republican  ;  they  were  very  destitute ; 
the  agent  gave  them  orders  for  cattle  as  they  came  through,  and  I  don't 
know  what  they  would  have  done  without  them,  and  we  gave  them 
some  cattle.  You  cannot  find  ten  thousand  laboring  people  anywhere 
who  are  better  fed  than  the  Indians  here  at  this  agency.  It  is  absurd 
for  anybody  to  say  otherwise.  I  do  not  know  of  any  suffering  last 
winter  among  the  Indians.  Mr.  Gibbons  was  here.  I3r.  Saville  was 
absent  during  January  and  February.  Mr.  Gibbons  remarked  to  me 
that  every  Indian  that  was  short  of  provisions  and  came  here  got  every 
thing  he  asked  for.  I  think  Red  Dog  went  up  to  the  military  camp  and 
made  some  complaints.  Mr.  Gibbons  gave  e^ery  Indian  that  came  here 
some  pork  or  whatever  he  could.  I  have  been  here  three  years.  I 
think  there  are  about  twelve  thousand  Indians  fed  here ;  that  would  be 


356 

my  judgment;  I  have  never  counted  them,  and  only  say  that  number 
from  what  I  hear.  The  average  of  the  cattle  delivered  to-day  (August 
11)  was  1,050  pounds. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 
Monday,  September  13,  1875. 

i  Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 
Professor  MARSH  was  also  present. 

Mr.  J.  W.  BOSLER  was  recalled. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  believe  before  we  came  to  Washington  we  requested 
Mr.  Bosler  to  give  us  a  statement  of  the  cattle  purchased  to  fill  the  con 
tracts  that  he  has  been  carrying  out  for  the  original  contractors,  and 
he  expressed  a  willingness  to  produce  his  books  or  make  a  transcript 
from  them,  and  there  his  examination  was  suspended ;  and  while  we 
wish  to  ask  him  some  questions  011  that  subject,  I  think  we  have  by  no 
means  completed  his  examination. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  Mr.  Bosler,  have  you  the  card  I  gave  you  on  which 
I  wrote  a  memorandum  of  the  information  that  we  wanted  ? 

Mr.  BOSLER.  Yes,  sir  ;  here  it  is.     [Handing  card.] 

Mr.  ATHERTON,  [reading.]  "  Will  Mr.  Bosler  please  furnish  the  com 
mission  a  full  and  exact  transcript  of  his  books,  showing  every  transac 
tion  in  brief  between  himself  and  the  Bed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agen 
cies  for  the  years  1873, 1874,  and  1875  ?  " 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  I  will  ask  Mr.  Bosler  if  he  has  his  books  here  showing  the  pur 
chases  and  delivery  of  beef  at  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies 
during  the  years  1873,  '74,  and  '75,  or  a  statement  made  from  his  books  ? 

Answer.  I  am  having  a  statement  made  out — it  is  not  quite  completed 
yet — of  the  entire  disbursements  and  receipts,  which  I  will  hand  to  the 
commissioners  for  their  private  use  and  information.  It  is  a  transcript 
from  my  books,  and  is  purely  a  business  paper,  and  it  would  simply  be 
giving  the  benefit  of  my  experience  in  the  business  to  outside  parties 
if  the  document  should  be  made  matter  of  the  public  record.  But  I 
will  give  it  to  you  for  your  information,  to  assist  you  in  your  inquiries 
on  the  subject.  I  have  no  objection  to  giving  you  publicly  the  general 
result  of  the  transactions,  but  as  to  making  all  my  business  matters,  all 
my  receipts  and  expenditures,  open  to  the  public,  you  see  exactly  where 
it  places  me.  It  puts  everybody  else  who  might  happen  to  or  want  to 
corne  into  competition  with  me  in  possession  of  the  information  and  ex 
perience  I  have  spent  fifteen  years  in  acquiring,  namely,  the  exact  cost 
of  keeping  these  cattle,  and  the  way  in  \vhich  they  can  be  kept  to  the 
best  advantage  at  the  least  expense,  &c.  I  repeat,  I  have  no  objection 
to  giving  it  to  the  commission  for  their  private  information,  but  you 
will  see  at  once  the  disadvantage  at  which  its  publication  would  place 
me.  I  am  having  it  made  out — a  complete  statement  of  all  the  items — 
and  will  hand  it  you  when  finished.  It  is  a  pretty  long  account. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Suppose, Mr.  Bosler,  you  goon  and  give  us  such  information  as 
we  can  place  upon  the  record,  and  then  we  can  go  into  those  private 
matters  afterward. 

A.  I  have  the  names  of  every  party  from  whom  the  cattle  were  pur 
chased,  the  number  of  head,  the  price  paid  for  them  per  h<jad,  and  the 


357 

whole  amount  of  money  paid,  the  expenses  of  all  kinds,  including  the 
cost  of  herding,  and  the  names  of  the  herders;  in  fact,  a  complete  tran 
script  from  my  books  ;  and  all  that  I  will  give  you  for  your  private  in 
formation. 

Q.  Is  there  any  reason  why  you  should  not  give  us  the  name  of  every 
person  from  whom  you  purchased  cattle  which  were  delivered  to  these 
agencies,  the  number  of  head  you  purchased  from  those  persons,  the 
dates  of  purchase,  and  the  price  you  paid  for  them  ? 

A.  Not  a  particle.  But  that,  recollect,  is  for  your  private  information. 
I  hand  you  now  in  reply  to  your  request  made  some  time  ago  an  abstract 
from  my  books,  showing  the  amounts  of  beef  delivered  under  the  J.  K. 
Foreman  contract  of  1874-?75  to  the  several  agencies: 


YANKTON  AGENCY. 

1874.  Average, 

Sept.  ] 5.     60  head.... 61, 500  )  (1,025 

Oct.       1.     60  head.... 59,790  >  $4,29127 <      996£ 

1 5.     65  bead ....  65,260  \  (1 ,  004 

31.     85  head'....  78, 003?  356570                                                             5      917«i 

Nov.    .16.     87  head.... 77, 000  5  a,ooo  /u j      885^_ 

24.  700 head...  61 5,  650  14,162  00 879^ 

1875. 

May      J.     63  head.... 64, 000  1,472  44 


1,120          1,021,208        23,491  41 
General  average,  OIl-^V 


UPPER  MISSOURI  (CROW  CREEK)  AGENCY. 

1874. 

Sept.   15.     300  head 313,500 $7,21155 1,045 

Oct.    17.     300  head 279,000 6,41793 930 

Nov.  16.    295  head 274,350 6,31096 960^ 

Dec.    23.    770head 598,800 J3,77440 777ff 

1875. 
June    18.    270head 271,350 6,24195 1,005 


1,935  1,737,000  39,956  79 

General  average,  897l|!}3-. 


STANDING  ROCK  AGENCY. 

1874. 

Sept.    30.       520  head 530,920 $12,21290 1,021 

Oct.      31.       507head 511,563 11,76755 1,009 

Nov.    30.       498  head 485,052 11,15781 974 

Dec.     22.       559  head 541,112 12,44738 968 

1875. 

Jan.     11.       520  head 495,040 11,38757 952 

1874. 

Dec.     31.  1,021  head 978.118 22,49997 958 

1875. 

March  10.      561  head 542,487 12,47868 967 

27.      169  head 164,606?  «  -wo  on                                             S      -)74 

April    25.      126  head 111,1325 b'  64  8J J      882 

May     31.      560  head 551,600 12,68863 985 


3,041  4,911,630  J 12, 983  38 

General  average, 


358 


CHEYENNE  RIVER  AGENCY. 


1874. 
Sept.    17,     302  head.... 
Oct.      17.     317  head.... 
Nov.     17.     322  head.... 
Dec.       1.     300  head 

..309,456  $7,1)8  52 

1  024:2,n?- 

.  .  325,559  7,  488  94 

1  027 

..329,406  7,57744  

1   023 

300  OOO^j 

f  1  ,  000 
J  1,019 
•j 

.      1^003. 
1   002 

17.     483  head  

-.492,177  I 

1875. 
Jan.       1.     722  head  
March  16.    551  head.... 
April    22.     514  head.... 
May     23.     448  head.... 

)>  35,  179  90  

..737,1  62  j 
..552,653  12,712  86  
..515,028  11,84736 

..447,104  10,28488  

998 

1,021 
1  ,  048 
1  ,  022 

960 

970 
1,011 
1   036-100- 

3,959                  1 
General  average,  1,012-;; 

1874. 

Sept.     11.     572  head.... 
Oct.        3.     823  head.... 
Nov.    21.     597  head 

,008,545                      92,209  90 

[1  "5"  II' 

SPOTTED  TAIL  AGENCY. 

-.584,012  $13,434  22.. 
..862,504  19,840  47  

610  134                         14  035  lk> 

Dec.      7.     497  head  
1875. 
Jan.       5.     447  head  
Feb.     17.     803  head  

.  -  477,  120  10,  975  35  

..433,590  .  .                    9  974  02 

.  811,833.         .             18  674  86 

March    6.     575  head  
April      5.     558  head  
26.     497  head  

..595,800..  13,70538 

..550,746  1263899 

987 
980 
905 
(       906 
}       990 

-.487,060                         11  '^65  57 

May     22.     386  head.... 
June      1.     199  head  

..349,330  10,47990 

..180  294  ? 

376  head. 

372240  1  16'576  °2  

"      20.     528  head 

518  021  ? 

eJfi'Vno  i  31,083  69  

1       9791  !$ 

lio38|I| 

$     1>043fir(. 

28.     529  head  

518,102  ) 

7,387 
General  average,  995-J.fr. 

1874. 

ept.       1.  534  head  
15.    300  head  
Oct.        1.    663  head  
20.    758  head.... 
Nov.     14.    701   head  
Dec.      3.    597  head  
1875. 
Jan.       1.    641  head.... 
Feb.       1.    437  head.... 
17.    467  head  
March    1.      96  head  
25.    539  head.... 
April      1.    583  head  
21.    584  head  
May     14.    608  head  
29.    371  head.... 
June    14.    598  head  
25.    946  head  

7,350,786                     182,683  59 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY. 

554,772  $12,761  61. 

311,643  7,  168  83 

691,509  ) 
783,672  V     50,760  67  

731,485....  ^ 
621,447  14,29535  

l)040£#| 

668,  578  15,  379  52  

l,5034-74v 
(  ],030f*i 
1  l.OJOfiHr 
l,001f|i 

\  1.004W 
I      93WI 

tup'???-'"  \   21,561     42.. 

486,  114^...  5 
99,303....           2,284  30  

555,210....  )      „.  «9ft     „ 

589,061  5 
585,  115                 17  553  45 

596,021....  I       >a  ™ 

or»i     rv»i-                t         tVJ    1  38    44.              .   . 

361,927  <) 

600,960  {      ..  c.w  ca 
QOO  n/30           *>      44,097  09  

888,  903..  ..  5 

9,  423                  9, 
General  average,  1  ,  OK  f 

576,983              249,529  41 

HI- 

359 


RECAPITULATION. 


Agency. 

No.  head. 

Pounds  gross. 

Amount. 

General  av 
erage. 

Yankton 

]   120 

1  021  208 

$23  491  41 

911   R8.S 

Crow  Creek  

1  ,  9:55 

]  ,  737,  000 

39,956  79 

897-  !;!!<'& 

Standing  Rock 

5  041 

4911  630 

112  983  38 

974lli!";- 

Cheyenne        .                    .... 

3  959 

4  008  545 

92  209  90 

1   012:-i  IK'7, 

Spotted  Tail 

7  387 

7  350  786 

182  683  59 

Ked  Cloud  

9.  423 

9,  576,  983 

249,529  41 

l,01f>;!ii& 

Total 

28  865 

28  606  152 

700  854  48 

On  whole  contract,  991  ^itr. 

In  explanation  of  this  statement,  with  reference  to  the  Upper  Mis 
souri  agency,  I  wish  to  state  that  the  agent,  Dr.  Livingston,  has  al 
ways  requested  small  cattle.  He  could  not  use  large  cattle  so  well  as 
small  ones,  for  the  reason  that  his  bauds  of  Indians  were  all  small,  and 
very  few  of  them  were  entitled  to  as  much  as  a  thousand  or  eleven  hun 
dred  pounds  of  beef  at  an  issue,  and  at  his  request  we  usually  gave  him 
the  smallest  cattle. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q  Would  the  same  class  of  cattle,  delivered  at  Eed  Cloud  and  Spot 
ted  Tail  agencies,  or  kept  near  the  Platte  for  delivery  there,  weigh  more 
than  they  would  if  kept  near  the  Upper  Missouri  agency  ? 

A.  Yes ;  the  region  of  the  Platte  is  a  better  country  to  graze  in,  and 
the  winter  is  not  so  severe. 

Q.  Cattle  keep  in  good  order  later  in  the  season  down  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  do  better  all  the  year;  there  is  better  grass, and  they 
are  fatter,  There  is  no  trouble  in  keeping  the  cattle  there  in  the  winter 
time:  they  do  as  well  on  the  range  in  the  winter  as  in  the  summer. 

Q.  The  average  on  the  whole  contract  for  the  year  was  a  fraction  over 
991  pounds  for  all  the  agencies  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  give  you  the  entire  contract.  The  paper  I  have 
handed  you  refers  to  one  transaction ;  it  was  all  one  contract,  and  exe 
cuted  as  a  single  transaction. 

Q.  NOWT,  I  would  like  for  you  to  give  us,  in  addition  to  the  number  of 
pounds  of  beef  delivered  under  that  contract,  the  number  of  head  of 
cattle  also. 

A.  You  will  find  that  in  the  document  I  have  just  handed  you.  You 
will  see  in  the  recapitulation  that  the  total  number  of  head  delivered, 
under  that  contract,  was  28,865,  the  weight  28,606,152  pounds,  and  the 
cost  $700,854.48. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Our  memorandum  asked  for  the  transactions  of  the  three  years 
1873,  >74,  and  '75. 

A.  I  did  not  notice  that  it  was  in  that  shape.  I  confined  my  state 
ment  entirely  to  the  transactions  of  this  year. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  There  was  a  positive  averment  that  the  cattle  receipted  for  in  Oc 
tober,  1873,  had  not,  in  fact,  been  delivered  as  receipted  for. 

A.  I  cannot  now  recall  the  circumstance  you  speak  of,  but  I  wTill  say 
this,  that  the  date  of  the  receipts  is  no  indication  of  the  time  of  delivery. 


360 

For  instance,  take  the  Grand^  River  agency ;  the  receipts  given  at  that 
agency  are  dated  the  last  day  of  each  month  all  through  the  year.  We 
could  never  get  but  one  receipt  a  mouth,  and  at  the  end  of  the  month 
the  agent  would  make  a  settlement  for  the  whole  amount  of  cattle  de 
livered  during  the  month,  and  give  one  receipt  for  all.  Among  the  records 
of  the  Department  you  will  find  a  great  many  receipts,  of  that  kind, 
which  are  not  dated  on  the  day  of  the  delivery  of  the  cattle. 

Q.  What  I  wish  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Bosler,  is  this :  Do  your  books  show 
the  time  of  the  actual  delivery  of  the  cattle,  or  do  they  merely  show  the 
time  when  you  got  receipts  ? 

A.  Just  the  date  of  the  receipt ;  the  only  record  I  keep  of  it  on  my 
books  is  the  date  of  the  receipt  and  the  time  it  is  transmitted  to  the  De 
partment. 

Q.  It  is  the  question  of  the  delivery  of  cattle  in  October,  1873,  that 
was  the  subject  of  considerable  inquiry  on  Saturday,  and  you  were 
asked  whether  certain  deliveries  set  forth  as  having  taken  place  there 
at  that  time  were  in  point  of  fact  delivered  1 

A.  There  is  no  question  about  that.  There  is  no  question  but  that 
every  head  oi?  cattle  receipted  for  at  those  agencies  was  delivered,  but 
whether  they  were  delivered  on  the  days  that  the  receipts  would  indi 
cate  I  cannot  say  5  that  would  probably  be  a  matter  of  doubt  in  some 
cases,  as  1  have  explained. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON: 

Q.  We  have  the  statement  of  Dr.  Saville's  books,  which  we  copied  in 
full,  and  we  have  his  testimony  explanatory  of  the  stampede  which  oc 
curred  in  October,  and  we  have  the  statement  of  Mr.  Walker,  who  after 
wards  investigated  that  matter,  and  that  was  the  reason  why  we  wished 
to  recur  to  the  question  of  the  actual  number  delivered  in  1873.  You 
said  you  did  not  remember  that  the  statement  for  1873  was  included  in 
the  request  we  made  of  you.  Let  me  read  the  memorandum  to  you 
again:  "Will  Mr. Bosler  please  furnish  the  commission  a  full  and  exact 
transcript  of  his  books,  showing  every  transaction  in  beef  between  him 
self  and  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  for  the  years  1873, 
1874,  and  18751 »  It  was  with  reference  to  that  special  point  that  we 
went  back  to  that  date. 

A.  I  overlooked  that.  I  could  very  easily  give  you  those  figures  if  I 
had  the  books  here.  That  business  is  all  settled  up  and  disposed  of, 
and  there  would  be  no  trouble  in  giving  you  the  information. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  WiU'you  make  a  statement  covering  that  time  ? 

A.  Do  you  mean  that  particular  date  when  the  stampede  occurred,  or 
the  whole  year? 

Q.  Covering  the  number  of  cattle  purchased  and  delivered  to  those 
two  agencies  in  the  year  1873? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  will  see  that  you  have  the  statement  for  your  private 
information.  All  I  can  give  you  is  the  number  of  cattle  delivered  and 
their  weights,  and  the  date  of  the  receipts;  I  might  not  be  able  to  give 
you  the  days  on  which  they  were  delivered.  My  brother  kept  a  rough 
memoranda  of  the  dates  of  delivery,  but  I  do  not  think  he  had  his 
memoranda-books  for  that  year,  but  I  guess  he  had  a  record  of  the  dates 
of  each  delivery  this  year.  The  only  account  I  keep  is  the  date  of  the 
receipts. 

Mr.  ATIIERTON.  Your  brother  has  been  keeping  a  little  more  complete 
record  this  year  than  before. 


361 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Mr.  Bosler,  can  you  give  us  information,  of  the  number  of  head  of 
cattle  you  purchased  on  the  contract  of  1873,  which  were  delivered  to 
the  two  agencies  we  are  investigating  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  prices  paid  for  those  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  amounts  you  received  from  the  Government. 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  and  the  amount  of  profit. 

Q.  It  may  appear  that  we  are  seeking  to  learn  the  amount  of  your 
profit ;  but  that  is  entirely  an  incidental  question.  Personally,  I  care 
nothing  about  the  profit.  The  question  is  whether  the  contract  was 
honestly  and  faithfully  executed  ;  we  have  nothing  to  do  with  any  other 
question;  but  we  must  know  the  number  of  cattle  you  purchased,  and 
from  whom  you  purchased  them,  and  the  number  you  delivered  at  the 
agencies,  so  that  we  may  be  able  to  contradict  you  if  you  do  not  state 
it  correctly,  and  if  you  do  state  it  correctly,  why,  of  course,  it  will  go 
to  your  credit  in  this  investigation. 

A.  All  the  cattle  for  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  are 
under  one  management,  and  my  brother  attends  to  them.  I  could  not 
give  you  a  division  of  the  number  purchased  for  each  agency,  because 
they  are  all  taken  from  a  general  herd.  I  could  not  do  it  except  by  esti 
mate.  The  Missouri  River  agencies  are  under  the  immediate  manage 
ment  of  Mr.  Paxton.  I  could  not  give  you  the  details  of  that. 

Q.  You  received  receipts  from  the  Whetstone  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  we  kept  the  herd  all  together  ;  the  cattle  are  deliv 
ered  to  both  agencies  from  the  same  herds,  and  the  same  herders  and 
men  deliver  the  cattle  at  both  places. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Your  receipts  will  show  specifically  the  deliveries  to  each  agency? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  no  trouble  about  that. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  buy  cattle  enough  for  those  two  agencies,  and  put  them  all 
together  on  the  North  Platte  River,  south  of  those  agencies  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  we  buy  cattle  for  the  entire  contract,  and  we  divide  them 
in  that  way.  Some  go  to  the  Missouri  River,  some  to  the  North  Platte. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  you  placed  on  the  North  Platte  ? 

A.  Certainly. 

Q.  And  out  of  that  you  supply  a  smaller  herd  on  the  Niobrara,  from 
which  you  deliver  directly  to  the  agencies? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  distribution  of  cattle  for  the  supply  of  several  agencies,  do 
you  distribute  promiscuously  from  your  entire  stock,  or  do  you  deliver 
one  kind  of  cattle  at  one  place  and  another  kind  at  another? 

A.  No  ;  we  do  not  discriminate  at  all.  There  is  generally  some  strife 
at  each  place  to  obtain  the  best  cattle,  but  there  is  no  division  of  the 
herd. 

Q.  That  is,  you  buy  droves  of  Texas  cattle  and  have  them  all  driven 
to  one  place u? 

A.  The  man  from  whom  I  buy  them  delivers  them  there  on  the  Mis 
souri  Eiver,  or  on  the  Platte,  wherever  they  are  ordered.  But,  as  a  gen 
eral  thing,  there  is  no  division  of  the  herd. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  when  you  buy  a  herd,  all  that  herd  is  driven  to 
one  place,  either  to  the  Missouri  River  or  the  Platte,  so  that  there  is  no 
division  of  them  ? 


362 

A.  As  a  general  thing,  unless  some  were  needed  to  supply  an  i  in  me 
diate  demand  at  one  of  the  agencies. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Has  there  been  no  such  division  within  the  last  two  years? 

A.  As  a  general  thing,  I  think  there  has  not ;  but  there  may  have 
been.  I  myself  do  not  attend  to  that  part  of  the  business ;  and,  of 
course,  I  could  not  state  positively  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  How  can  we  get  that  definite  information  ? 

A.  You  can  get  it  from  my  brother,  or  from  Mr.  Paxton,  but  there  is 
really  no  necessity  for  it.  Those  herds  are  generally  made  up,  1,501)  to 
2,000  in  a  herd,  and  taken  to  one  place. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  there  any   division  of  them  after  they  reach  the  North  Platte  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  if  you  buy  a  herd  and  send  it  to  the  North  Platte,  no  por 
tion  of  that  herd  is  ever  drawn  away  to  supply  the  Missouri  agency  *. 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  herd  having  been  divided  after  the  purchase, 
part  going  to  the  Missouri  Hiver  and  part  to  the  Platte.  within  the  last 
two  years  $ 

A.  Well,  I  have  not  definite  information  upon  that  subject.  You  will 
have  to  get  it  from  my  brother. 

Q.  You  stated  it  was  usually  the  other  way,  that  they  were  not  di 
vided  ;  but  I  want  to  know  if  you  are  aware  of  any  particular  instance 
wherein  a  herd  was  divided  ;  whether  you  could  say  that  some  one  par 
ticular  herd  had  been  divided  ? 

A.  I  never  have  been  present  at  the  delivery  of  any  particular  herd 
on  the  Platte,  I  have  been  at  the  Missouri  liiver. 

Q.  The  point  of  the  inquiry  is,  if  you  purchase  a  large  herd  of  cattle 
and  pay  a  certain  price,  and  have  the  receipts  to  show  what  you  paid 
for  them,  if  that  herd  is  divided,  part  going  to  the  Missouri  River  and 
part  to  the  Platte,  then  it  is  important  to  know  how  the  division  took 
place — whether  it  was  really  divided  and  a  better  class  of  cattle  went 
to  one  place  than  to  another  1 

A.  I  gave  the  commissioners  a  statement  here  of  the  amount  of  cat 
tle  delivered  on  the  Platte,  and  exactly  what  herds  they  were  taken 
from.  I  have  not  detailed  information  to  answer  you  fully,  but  I  gave 
them  a  statement  at  the  agency  that  would  effectually  cover  that  matter. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  question  the  Professor  puts  to  you  is,  whether  you  have  any 
information  of  any  herd  being  so  divided  that  one  kind  of  cattle  went 
to  one  place  and  another  kind  to  another  place  out  of  the  same  herd. 

A.  [To  Professor  MARSH.]  The  point  you  were  trying  to  get  at  is, 
whether  better  cattle  were  sent  to  one  place  than  to  another,  is  it  ? 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  I  put  the  question  pretty  clearly. 

A.  I  gave  you  my  answer,  that  I  have  not  information  enough  on 
that  subject  to  state  it  exactly.  I  gave  you  my  general  impression 
about  it. 

Q.  Then  I  asked  you  if  you  knew  of  any  single  herd  that  had  been 
divided. 


363 

A.  No ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  any  single  herd  has  not  been  divided? 

A.  No;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Single  herds  might  have  been  divided  and  you  not  know  it  ? 

A.  Certainly  ;  they  might  have  been,  but  there  would  be  no  object  in 
it.     I  wish  to  answer  all  these  questions  by  saying  that  my  brother  has 
charge  of  that  part  of  the  business  on  the  Platte,  and  those  matters  are 
wholly  under  his  charge. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  from  him,"or  from  any  other  source,  that 
any  such  thing  happened  at  any  time?  t?r 

A.  No  ;  I  have  not, 

Q.  Have  you  stated  in  your  former  examination  what  you  paid  for  the 
cattle  in  1873, 1874,  and  1875  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  stated  about  it  as  I  told  you.  I  will  give  you  the  exact 
price  for  every  purchase.  The  general  price  was,  I  think,  in  the  neigh 
borhood  of  from  $11  to  $11.50  for  cows,  and  $17  to  $18  for  steers,  during 
last  year;  and  this  year  $12  to  $20  for  most  of  them.  There  were  some 
few  cattle  bought  of  Mabry  and  Millet  that  we  paid  $12  for.  We  bought 
some  beeves  for  $18,  but  no  cows  for  less  than  $12.  Those  are  the  only 
two  classes  of  cattle  we  bought. 

Q.  When  were  those  cattle  bought  ?  When  did  you  pay  for  the  cattle 
bought  to  fill  the  contract  of  1873-'4? 

A.  Immediately  after  the  contract  was  let.  I  paid  up  to  the  last  lot 
of  cattle  purchased  when  the  commission  was  out  there. 

Q.  I  mean  the  year  1874-'5. 

A.  The  contract  of  1874-?5  has  just  been  wound  up. 

Q.  When  did  you  begin  to  buy  your  cattle  for  that  contract? 

A.  We  commenced  within  twenty-four  hours  after  the  contract  was 
awarded  in  July. 

Q.  Where  did  you  make  your  purchases  of  cattle  for  that  contract? 

A.  Mostly  out  in  that  country.  I  think  some  of  those  cattle- men 
were  in  New  York,  to  be  present  at  the  letting  and  sell  their  cattle.  I 
think  some  of  the  cattle  were  purchased  in  New  York;  at  least  I  know 
arrangments  were  made  there  with  the  owners  for  some  of  them. 

Q.  And  this  year  I  understand  you  purchased  Mabry's  cattle,  in  New 
York,  at  the  time  the  contract  was  awarded  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  whose  name  was  the  contract  of  lS73-'4? 

A.  A.  H.  Wilder,  G.  M.  Dodge,  and  J.  W.  L.  Slavens. 

Q.  Did  they  have  contracts  for  the  whole  ? 

A.  It  was'divided  ;  Bed  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  were  awarded 
t)  Wilder;  Yankton  and  Cheyenne  Kiver  agencies  to  General  Dodge, 
and  Upper  Missouri  and  Grand  lliver  agencies  to  J.  W.  L.  Slaveus.  * 

Q.  After  the  letting  of  the  contracts  to  those  different  parties,  was 
there  a  combination  or  partnership  formed,  so  that  in  i'act  the  whole 
contract  was  executed  at  onetime? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  interests  were  there  in  it? 

-A.  The  parties  who  had  been  awarded  contracts,  for  instance,  Dodge 
and  Slavens  were  on  the  Missouri  liiver,  and  they  were  mixed  up  be 
tween  the  agencies  there.  They  concluded  they  had  better  make  one 
transaction  of  the  whole  thing.  There  would  be  a  good  deal  of  difficulty 
in  securing  herding-grounds,  as  there  were  but  few  places  where  cattle 
could  be  kept,  so  these  parties  formed  a  copartnership  for  their  mutual 
convenience,  or,  in  other  words,  pooled  all  three  contracts. 


3G4 

Q.  Did  you  go  into  that  combination  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  proportion  ? 

A    That  is  going  into  private  matters.     May  I  ask  what  is  the  object 
of  the  question  ? 

Q.  Is  there  any  reason  why  yon  should  not  answer  it  ? 

A.  O,  no ;  there  is  no  reason  why  I  should  not  answer  it,  except  that 
t  would  involve  the  statement  of  my  private  business  matters.  Still  I 
have  no  objection  to  answering  it.  I  was  not  in  New  York  at  the  time  • 
1  did  not  attend  the  letting  of  the  contract.  I  sent  in  a  bid,  but  I  was 
not  there  myself.  After  the  awards  were  made,  Mr.  Slavens  came  to 
see  nie  and  asked  me  to  assist  him  in  filling  his  contract.  I  made  an 
arrangement  with  him  to  do  it,  and  I  took  it  off  his  hands,  so  far  as  the 
work  of  filling  it  was  concerned.  Sometime  after  that  I  went  to  New 
York,  and  saw  Mr.  Wilder  and  General  Dodge,  and  they  agreed  to 
place  the  whole  matter  in  my  hands.  We  entered  into  a  business 
arrangement  by  which  I  should  fill  the  contract. 

Q.  Yrou  became  a  party  interested  in  the  contract  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  furnish  any  portion  of  the  capital? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  furnished  all  the  capital— that  was  the  consideration 
that  let  me  into  it— or  rather  loaned  it  to  the  company. 
By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  assignment  of  the  contract,  or  was  it  merely  sub- 

A.  Xo,  sir,  there  was  no  assignment ;  I  merely  acted  as  agent  for  these 
parties  to  do  the  work  for  them.  I  had  about  one-half  interest  in  the 
contract,  except  the  Slavens  part  of  it.  I  gave  him  a  specified  interest 
in  that  portion  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  arrangement  with  the  men  who  got  the  contract 
before  the  letting  ? 

A.  None  whatever.  I  don't  think  I  had  ever  seen  Mr.  Wilder  but 
once  before  that  in  my  life. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Wheeler  have  an  interest  in  the  contract? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  I  did  not  understand  you  to  mention  his  name  with  the  others. 

A.  He  was  not  a  bidder. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Baldwin  had  an  interest  with  Dodge  ? 

A.  He  was  in  their  firm,  I  believe.  Baldwin  &  Dodge  was  the  name 
of  their  business  firm. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  that  contract  specify  that  it  should  not  be  filled  by  other  par 
ties  without  the  written  consent  of  the.Secretarv  of  the  Interior  or  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs? 

A.  Y^ou  mean,  should  not  be  assigned  ? 

Q.  Assigned  or  filled. 

A.  I  don't  think  that  word  "assigned"  was  ever  used. 

Q.  I  ask  because  the  statement  has  been  made  that  there  was  a  pro 
vision  of  that  kind. 

A.  Yrou  can  find  out  in  the  Department,  I  don't  think  that  word  is 
used.  You  understand,  Professor,  that  I  filled  this  contract  as  the  agent 
of  those  parties.  There  was  no  assignment  of  any  kind. 

Q.  I  understand  it  5  and  so  I  used  the  word  "  filled  "  instead  of  the 
word  "assigned/' 


365 

A.  I  never  knew  of  a  regulation  of  that  kind. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  suppose  there  was  an  assignment,  and  you  filled  the  contract  in 
your  own  name  ? 

A.  Any  assignment  would  have  to  be  approved  by  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  That  would  exonerate  the  original  contractor  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  As  there  has  been  a  good  deal  said  on  this  subject,  I 
desire  to  say  here  that  all  arrangements  for  my  filling  these  contracts 
of  other  people  have  been  purely  of  a  business  character.  There  have 
been  no  combinations  of  any  kind.  The  arrangements  have  been  gen 
erally  made  after  the  contracts  have  been  awarded,  each  party  at  the 
bidding  trying  to  be  successful.  Whoever  did  not  get  a  contract  would 
do  the  next  best  thing  he  could.  So  far  as  Mr.  Wheeler  is  concerned  in 
this  matter,  I  went  into  a  business  operation  with  him  some  years  ago, 
in  which  it  was  necessary  to  have  somebody  to  assist  to  furnish  capital. 
There  was  a  large  amount  of  money  needed.  As  there  were  no  others 
but  us  in  it  at  that  time,  we  still  kept  up  the  business  arrangement. 
That  was  all  there  was  about  it.  As  to  the  arrangement  with  General 
Dodge  and  Mr.  Baldwin,  we  were  competitors  for  about  five  years  in 
bidding,  and  always  pretty  close  bidders,  and  we  finally  agreed  to  bid 
together  and  make  a  business  arrangement  of  it.  As  to  the  arrange 
ment  with  Mr.  Wilder,  I  never  saw  him  to  speak  to  him  about  contracts 
until  after  the  contracts  for  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  had 
been  awarded  to  him  in  1873-' 4 ;  and  then  I  made  a  business  arrange 
ment  with  him,  to  take  an  interest  in  the  contract,  and  assist  him  in 
filling  it.  I  had  been  in  that  business  for  some  fifteen  years  in  that 
country,  and  I  was  familiar  with  it,  while  he  was  not.  It  really  was  my 
business,  and  I  could  carry  it  out  better  than  he  could. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  you  know  Mr.  J.  K.  Foreman  before  he  obtained  the  contract 
for  last  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  he  live  when  he  obtained  the  contract  ? 

A.  He  lived  in  Pennsylvania. 

Q.  Was  he  a  cattle-dealer  ? 

A.  He  was  a  stock-shipper;  that  is  his  business  now. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  live  in  Omaha  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  he  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  he  put  down  his  place  of  residence  Omaha 
when  the  contract  was  signed  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  I  was  going  to  explain  why  he  probably  so  put  it  down. 

Q.  The  contract  says,  "  J.  K.  Foreman,  of  Omaha." 

A.  There  was  a  contract  let  here  in  1871-'2,  or  1870-'!,  upon  adver 
tisements  asking  for  bids,  and  there  was  a  man  by  the  name  of  Cox 
who  made  a  bid,  and  dated  his  bid  Nebraska  City,  although  he  did 
not  live  in  Nebraska  City.  He  was  a  Texas  man,  and  lived  some 
where  in  Texas.  The  contract  was  awarded  to  him,  and  it  threw  com 
petitors  off  the  track,  and  he  escaped  the  abuse  the  successful  bidder 
usually  gets  to  prevent  an  award  being  made  him.  The  same  thing 
has  been  done  frequently.  I  have  put  in  bids,  and  so  have  other  people, 
that  were  not  dated  at  the  actual  place  of  residence.  When  the  con 
tract  is  awarded  to  them  and  executed,  then  they  have  to  give  their 


366 

exact  place  of  residence,  in  order  that  the  Department  may  be  able  to 
communicate  with  them.  I  have  frequently  made  bids  dated  in  New 
York,  but  I  do  not  live  in  New  York.  The  impression  also  is  that  a 
man  from  the  West,  living  out  near  the  region  where  the  cattle  were 
to  be  delivered,  would  stand  a  little  better  chance  of  getting  the  award 
than  eastern  men. 

Q.  So  he  put  his  name  in  as  of  Omaha,  although  he  did  not  live  in 
Omaha  ? 

±*A.  Yes ;  and  had  he  filled  this  contract  would  probably  have  gone 
there  ;  but  this  arrangement  was  made,  and  it  was  not  necessary  for  him 
to  go  there  ;  that  is  the  way  he  came  to  do  it.  It  is  a  matter  of  no  im 
portance  at  all. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  arrangement  with  him  about  the  contract,  in 
case  he  got  it  and  you  did  not,  before  the  letting  ? 

A.  That  matter  is  all  down  in  the  evidence ;  the  commissioners  have 
got  it  all. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Yes,  we  have  been  all  over  that. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  You  know  how  many  stampedes  of  cattle  have  occurred  at  the 
lied  Cloud  agency  during  the  last  fiscal  year? 

A.  There  was  only  one  during  the  last  fiscal  year;  since  we  have 
been  doing  business,  only  two ;  so  I  am  informed  by  my  brother.  That 
appears  in  his  evidence. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  that  stampede  took  place — the  one  of  the 
last  fiscal  year  ? 

A.  I  don't  recollect  the  exact  date ;  but  there  was  one  and  only  one. 
I  suppose  that  is  the  one  you  refer  to. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  when  the  cattle  that  joined  your  herd  after  the 
stampede  were  returned  to  the  agency? 

A.  No  ;  I  had  no  control  of  them.  All  I  know  is  the  fact  that  they 
were  returned.  That  also  has  been  stated  very  fully  by  my  brother ; 
he  had  charge  of  those  matters.  A  part  of  those  cattle  are  the  subject 
of  controversy  yet. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q,  I  think  I  understood  you  to  say  in  your  examination  heretofore 
that  you  were  never  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  or  Spotted  Tail  agency  until 
last  month. 

A.  That  was  my  first  trip, 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Would  your  books  or  receipts  show  when  the  stampeded  cattle 
were  returned  to  the  agency,  if  they  were  returned  ? 

A.  Well,  if  I  understand  it,  they  were  returned  in  this  way,  as  is  ex 
plained  by  my  brother,  who  had  charge  of  the  matter:  The  amount  was 
deducted  from  the  next  receipt  for  cattle  that  was  given.  After  the 
matter  was  adjusted  and  they  discovered  the  number — I  think  one  him 
dred  and  some  odd  head,  whatever  the  number  was — they  took  an  aver 
age  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle  that  were  delivered  at  that  time,  and 
they  deducted  that  amount  from  the  next  receipt,  and  receipted  for  that 
many  pounds  less.  That  is  my  understanding  of  it. 

Q.  The  first  delivery  after  the  stampede  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  the  first.  Whether  it  was  the  first  delivery  or  not, 
I  cannot  say  positively,  because  I  don't  know  ;  but  it  was  the  first  de 
livery  at  which  my  brother  J.  II.  was  present,  I  am  positive.  My 
brother  George  was  there  at  the  time,  and  he  told  me  that  Dr.  Saville 


367 

declined  to  give  him  a  receipt  until  those  cattle  were  returned  and  the 
matter  adjusted  ;  but  George  contended  that  he  had  delivered  the  cat 
tle,  and  it'  he  did  not  give  him  a  receipt  for  them,  there  would  be  no 
more  deliveries  made  there.  He  said,  however,  that  Dr.  Saville  and  J. 
H.  could  arrange  that  matter  satisfactorily,  while  he  insisted  on  having 
a  receipt  for  the  cattle  delivered.  So  the  whole  amount  was  receipted 
for,  and  when  my  brother  Herman  returned,  he  adjusted  the  matter 
with  the  agent,  and  explained  how  they  got  at  the  number  of  cattle.  I 
think  it  was  about  128  head;  but  there  was  a  question  between  them 
as  to  the  number  of  cattle  that  had  returned  to  our  herd,  and  that  ques 
tion  was  referred  to  the  office  here,  and  is  pending  yet. 

Q.  You  mean  that  the  cattle  were  not  receipted  for  before  the}r  were 
stampeded? 

A.  The  cattle  were  receipted  for,  not  before  they  were  stampeded. 
George  delivered  the  cattle  there,  and  then  started  down  to  the  Whet 
stone  agency.  But  while  he  was  at  Whetstone,  the  severe  storm  that 
has  been  spoken  of,  as  having  caused  the  stampede,  occurred.  When 
he  came  back,  he  went  to  Saville  for  the  receipts,  but  Saville,  as  I 
have  told  you,  declined  to  give  them  to  him.  George  insisted  that  he 
should  have  them,  or  he  would  not  deliver  any  more  cattle.  Saville  re 
ceipted  for  them,  with  the  understanding  that  the  matter  should  be  ad 
justed  with  J.  H.;  and  then  the  Doctor  deducted  the  whole  amount  of 
cattle  which  he  had  lost,  while  we  claimed  that  only  a  certain  number 
had  come  into  our  herd,  consequently  there  is  still  a  number  of  head 
that  we  have  never  yet  been  paid  for. 

Q,  How  could  there  be  any  question  about  the  receipts  if  the  cattle 
had  been  accepted  by  the  agent  and  weighed  ? 

A.  There  should  not  have  been  any  question.  The  Doctor  thought 
he  would  keep  the  matter  in  his  own  hands.  These  cattle  stampeded, 
and  he  took  it  for  granted  that  they  had  returned  to  our  herd.  George 
claimed  that  he  had  delivered  the  cattle,  and  that  the  Government  was 
responsible  for  them  and  not  he,  and  that  he  would  not  deliver  any 
more  cattle  until  he  got  a  receipt. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  soon  after  the  receiving  and  weighing  of  the  cattle  by  the 
agent  does  your  brother  George  ordinarily  get  a  written  receipt  from 
the  agent? 

A.  In  this  case  he  went  down  to  Whetstone  and  back  before  taking  it. 

Q.  Then,  you  deliver  the  cattle  over  to  the  agent  at  the  corral  at  the 
scales,  and  after  that  you  get  from  the  agent  a  receipt  ?  I  want  to  know 
what  time  elapses,  ordinarily,  before  you  get  it. 

A.  There  is  no  definite  time.  Some  of  those  receipts  are  sent  to  me 
direct  by  the  agent;  at  other  times  he  waits  until  my  brother  J.  H. 
gets  back,  and  he  takes  the  receipts.  Sometimes  George  gets  them,  but 
the  general  custom  is  to  give  them  about  mail-day. 

Q.  So  that,  upon  the  delivery  of  cattle,  you  do  not  wait  to  get  a 
receipt  before  you  leave  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  sometimes  they  are  not  got  for  a  week  afterward.  At  the 
time  of  the  delivery  there  is  a  memorandum  taken  of  the  amounts,  and 
the  receipts  are  given  afterward. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q,  The  Professor  has  been  alluding  to  the  memorandum  receipt,  no 
doubt.  When  is  it  usual  to  give  a  memorandum  receipt  which  precedes 
the  voucher? 


368 


A.  When  the  agents  are  away,  it  is  generally  given  by  the  clerk  ;  or 
when  the  agent  is  there,  nothing,  ordinarily,  is  taken  but  the  memoran 
dum  in  a  pass-book,  setting  down  the  number  of  head  that  were  deliv 
ered. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Then,  your  brother  obtained  a  receipt  for  all  the  cattle  from  Agent 
Saville  on  his  return  from  Whetstone  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  way  by  which  you  can  tell  the  date  when  the  cattle 
that  were  stampeded  were  returned? 

A.  The  commissioners  have  the  date  that  was  given  when  they  were 
there.  My  brother  George  gave  that ;  I  have  not  got  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  transactions  with  the  Snyder  brothers,  cat 
tle  dealers,  near  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  I  think  we  had  quite  a  number.     I  recognize  the  name  very  well. 

Q.  Did  they  buy  cattle  of  you? 

A.  No;  we  bought  cattle  of  them.  I  think  I  have  in  those  memo 
randa  some  purchases  made  of  them. 

The  CHAIRMAN.    We  have  the  testimony  of  Snyder. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  How  do  the  cattle  in  the  later  winter-mouths  compare  with  those 
in  May,  for  instance  ? 

A.  Well,  there  is  a  great  deal  of  difference  between  that  country  on 
the  Platte  and  that  on  the  Missouri  liiver.  The  only  cattle  we  deal  in  are 
through  Texas  cattle.  In  May  there  are  no  through  cattle  there.  But 
the  Texas  cattle  will  improve  from  the  time  they  get  on  the  range, 
which  is  generally  in  June,  until,  probably,  the  1st  of  December.  They 
gain  in  weight  all  the  time  after  that,  and  there  is  not  much  falling  off, 
unless  it  should  be  a  terribly  severe  winter. 

Q.  The  cattle  would  not  be  fatter  in  May  than  they  would  two  or  three 
months  before  ? 

A.  No;  I  don't  think  they  would.  I  am  speaking  now  of  what  you 
call  straight  Texas  cattle — cattle  that  have  been  wintered  over  and  be 
come  acclimated — become  used  to  the  grass.  When  they  come  out  in 
the  spring,  they  are  fat  and  nice  ;  and  some  of  the  finest  cattle  that  are 
shipped  to  the  eastern  market  go  from  that  country  in  the  spring;  but 
those  are  cattle  that  have  been  kept  on  the  range  at  least  a  year. 

Q.  The  grass  starts  early  in  that  country  about  the  Platte  ? 

A.  It  is  not  the  starting  of  the  grass ;  it  is  the  dry  winter-grass  that 
they  fatten  on. 

Q.  Would  cattle  be  quite  as  fat  in  May  or  June  as  they  would  be  in  the 
early  spring-months? 

A.  Cattle  kept  over  one  winter  after  having  spent  a  year  in  the  coun 
try  and  become  acclimated  and  then  started  in  on  the  second  winter 
appear  very  well. 

Q.  Cattle  you  delivered  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency  in  May  and  June 
would  be  heavier,  if  anything,  than  those  you  delivered  in  the  winter- 
months  ? 

A.  We  don't  discover  much  difference  in  them ;  they  are  about  the 
same  ;  if  they  have  fed  up  during  the  summer  they  generally  hold  their 
own  during  the  balance  of  the  year,  say  to  the  1st  of  December. 

Q.  It  was  a  very  hard  winter  last  winter;  did  that  diminish  the 
weight  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  Kot  to  any  great  extent ;  the  ground  was  not  covered  with  snow. 
There  was  a  great  deal  of  snow,  but  it  had  drifted  into  the  ravines.  It 


369 

would  be  only  during  the  continuance  of  a  very  severe  storm  that  the 
cattle  could  not  feed. 

Q.  Did  anybody  besides  these  gentlemen  you  have  named  have  any 
interest  in  the  contract  for  the  last  two  years  ? 

A.  Whom  have  I  named  ? 

Prof.  MARSH.  It  is  down,  I  believe,  those  you  named ;  those  are  the 
parties  interested  in  the  combination  who  took  hold  of  the  business  after 
the  contract  was  let. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  understood  him  to  say  they  were  interested  for 
one  year  in  one  contract — Dodge  and  Wilder. 

WITNESS.  Dodge  and  I  have  been  interested  since  the  contract  of 
1872-'3,  or  the  first  contract  awarded  to  him,  whenever  that  was.  I  have 
given  the  names  of  parties  that  I  am  interested  with.  They  may  have 
business  partners,  but  the  only  parties  I  am  accountable  to,  or  who  are 
accountable  to  me,  are  the  parties  I  have  mentioned. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  don't  know  but  we  have  been  over  the  ground  fully  enough  ;  but 
1  will  ask  you  how  long  you  have  been  a  contractor  with  the  Indian  De 
partment  i 

A.  Since  about  I860. 

Q.  With  the  Indian  Department! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  always  been  a  bidder? 

A.  Well,  yes,  whenever  I  saw  anything  I  thought  was  desirable  to 
bid  for. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  any  time  your  bids  have  been  rejected 
when  they  were  the  lowest? 

A.  I  know  they  never  have  been.  I  know  I  never  have  been  the 
lowest  bidder  when  the  contract  was  not  awarded  to  me. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  any  charge  that  you  have  not  fulfilled  a  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Never  of  a  public  nature. 

Q.  I  mean  in  the  Department. 

A.  No  j  none  that  I  have  any  knowledge  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  charge  was  ever  filed  against  you  be 
fore  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners? 

A.  Never  heard  of  it. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  it  f 

A.  No.     If  there  is  I  don't  know  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not,  at  any  time,  any  members  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  claimed  that  you  failed  to  fulfill  a  con 
tract,  or  either  publicly  or  privately  notified  you  of  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  know  I  never  did  fail  to  fill  any  contract  with  the 
Indian  Department  or  any  other  department. 

Q.  Are  you  now,  and  have  you  been  for  the  last  three  years,  a  con 
tractor  with  the  Indian  Department  in  your  own  name  ? 

A.  Yes ;  this  year  and  last  year. 

Q.  Contractor  for  what  ? 

A.  Beef  at  Fort  Berth  old.  I  have  not  always  been  awarded  con 
tracts,  because  I  have  generally  bid  very  high.  My  bid  this  year  was 
$2.95  per  hundred  pounds.  There  is  one  thing  I  do  not  wish  you  to 
lose  sight  of,  namely,  that  when  I  bid  on  these  contracts  I  try  to  get 
the  best  price  I  can,  as  a  business  transaction  ;  and  as  there  are  very 
few  bidders,  I  sometimes  bid  pretty  high  and  take  the  chances  that 
there  may  be  none  who  will  bid  lower. 
24  I  F 


370 

Q.  What  was  your  bid  last  year — 1874? 

A.  I  think  it  was  only  $2.60 ;  I  don't  remember  the  exact  figures. 

Q.  You  filled  the  contract  at  $2.30^-  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  filled  the  contract  this  year  at  $2.46J  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  one  of  the  business  chances  I  take  in  bidding, 
that  there  might  be  none  who  would  bid  less  than  $2.95,  and  I  would 
get  it  at  $2.95.  There  was  very  little  bidding  under  that  figure,  and 
there  are  only  two  or  three  parties  who  bid  on  these  contracts. 

Q.  Why  is  that? 

A.  Because  they  are  not  familiar  with  the  business.  There  is  a  party 
in  Leaven  worth,  Kansas,  who  have  always  been  regular  bidders;  and 
this  year  a  Texas  party  came  in  and  bid.  Then  the  Leavenworth  party 
was  the  only  opposition  I  had. 

Q.  Can  you  explain  the  reason  why  this  bidding  is  confined  to  so  few 
persons?  • 

Q.  Well,  yes ;  I  think  I  can.  In  the  first  place,  it  takes  a  large  amount 
of  ready  capital  to  fill  a  contract  of  this  magnitude,  and  most  of  the  peo 
ple  who  have  got  money  are  engaged  in  some  other  business,  and  have 
not  the  ready  cash  to  purchase  so  many  cattle.  I  don't  mean  to  say 
that  they  have  not  money  enough  to  do  it,  but  that  they  have  their  cap 
ital  employed  in  some  other  enterprise,  and  these  contracts  are  generally 
bid  on  by  parties  living  in  the  West.  There  are  very  few  persons  liv 
ing  there  who  can  fill  so  large  a  contract. 

Q.  Are  you  obliged  to  pay  cash  for  them  ? 

A.  Well,  we  always  do  it.  I  never  paid  a  dollar's  worth  in  any  other 
way  but  for  cash. 

Q.  Cash  on  delivery? 

A.  Cash  on  delivery. 

Q.  What  further  reasons  are  there  ? 

A.  Well,  the  want  of  experience  in  this  business.  They  would  have 
to  go  into  a  new  country  that  they  don't  know  very  much  about;  as 
Professor  Marsh  says,  an  u  unexplored  country  ;"  and  they  would  have 
to  take  considerable  chances,  which  they  are  not  willing  to  do.  You 
would  not  be  willing  to  bid  on  a  contract  to  furnish  beef  for  Eed  Cloud 
agency,  because,  when  you  got  out  there  you  would  see  that  you  did  not 
know  anything  about  the  business.  We  have  been  there  several  years 
and  are  familiar  with  it :  and  those  people  at  Leavenworth  are  familiar 
with  the  business  also,  and  they  don't  consider  the  chances  of  any  con 
sequence.  Our  experience  in  the  business  has  reduced  our  expenses 
from  the  time  we  commenced  fully  $30,000  a  year. 

Q.  I  see  the  contracts  require  that  you  shall  get  your  herd  within  a 
reasonable  distance  from  the  agency,  and  you  keep  it  about  eighty  miles 
away. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  we  did  most  of  the  time  last  winter.  What  the  contract 
means  by  that  is  that  the  agent  shall  know  that  the  cattle  are  there  ; 
that  he  can  get  them  when  he  wants  them;  that  the  contractor  is  not 
likely  to  fail  in  having  cattle  on  hand  when  they  are  needed. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  there  is  any  risk  at  the  present  time  in  put 
ting  seventeen  or  twenty  thousand  cattle  on  the  Platte  Eiver  under 
proper  herders? 

A.  No,  not  a  particle.  I  don't  estimate  the  risk  at  one-quarter  of  one 
per  cent. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  loss  of  cattle  in  keeping  a  herd  over  a 
year  ? 

A.  I  think  our  loss  last  year  was  about  in  the  neighborhood  of  a  thou- 


371 

sand  bead  ;  but  a  great  many  of  these  cattle  were  lost  by  straying  oft 
in  the  winter-time.  We  let  our  cattle  loose  on  the  range,  and  in  the 
spring  of  the  year  gather  them  together — what  is  called  rounding  them 
up,  and  we  find  a  good  many  of  those  cattle  stray  off  and  are  picked  up 
by  other  parties,  and  get  into  other  herds,  and  the  Indians  kill  a  good 
many,  and  last  year  we  came  out  with  about  that  much  loss.  If  we 
were  to  herd  them  closely  and  watch  them  carefully,  the  loss  would  be 
very  small  ;  yet  we  find  it  is  a  good  deal  cheaper  to  lose  a  few  than  to 
go  to  the  extra  expense  of  having  men  to  keep  them  in  sight  all  the 
time. 

Q.  I  want  to  know,  Mr.  Bosler,  whether  or  not  the  part  of  the  ma 
chinery  by  which  a  few  persons  can  control  the  bidding  is  the  expendi 
ture  of  money  to  keep  other  men  out  of  the  competition  $ 

A.  Well,  be  a  little  more  explicit  in  your  question  $  expenditure  of 
money  in  what  way  ? 

Q.  I  want  to  know  whether  you  have  expended  money  to  keep  down 
competition  ? 
A.  Not  a  dollar. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  its  being  done  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  think  there  is  a  possibility  of  its  being  done ;  I 
don't  see  why  it  would  be  done ;  a  party  bidding  has  no  knowledge  of 
the  amount  of  competition  until  the  bids  are  opened,  to  buy  up  parties 
before  the  contract  is  awarded. 

Q.  Suppose  the  bids  are  all  in  and  about  being  opened,  and  you  find 
a  man  who  is  the  lowest  bidder  and  entitled  to  the  contract,  have  you 
ever  known  that  man  to  be  hired  to  fail  to  comply   with   the  require 
ments  of  the  contract '? 
A.  Never. 

Q.  It  is  a  fact  that  a  good  many  such  bidders  drop  out  for  some  rea 
sons,  is  it  not  f 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  is  the  reason  why  they  do  it  ? 
A.  The  particular  reason  is  this:  There  are  parties  who  put  in  bids 
with  the  expectation  of  some  one  giving  them  something  to  drop  out- 
buying  them  off,  thinking  that  they  may  happen  to  drop  in  at  such  places 
that  their  bid  will  be  valuable  to  some  one  who  wants  to  fill  the  contract 
while  they  have  no  idea  of  filling  it  ;  and  my  idea  is  that  the  intention 
of  the  Department  was  to  prevent  that,  and  so  provided  that  no  contract 
should  be  filled  by  any  other  parties  than  the  contractor,  without  the 
written  consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  to  confine  it  to  lona-Jide 
bidders. 

Q.  Do  yon  know  yourself  of  any  such  person  having  succeeded  in 
making  money  by  dropping  out  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  any  in  such  a  way  ? 
A.  Never  a  dollar. 

Q.  But  still  your  judgment  is  that  it  is  the  practice  of  these  parties 
to  make  somebody  pay  them  ? 

A.  Yes ;  it  often  happens  that  when  proposals  are  invited  nobody 
responds,  and  in  other  cases  there  is  some  informality  about  the  bidding ; 
and  if  it  occurs  in  some  place  where  they  thought  they  might  possibly 
succeed  in  bleeding  somebody,  they  would  make  their  appearance.  You 
will  find  a  good  many  bids  dated  New  York  City; 'but  the  bidders 
never  make  their  appearance,  and  it  is  never  known  who  they  are. 

Mr.  BOSLER.  I  would  like  to  ask  Professor  Marsh  a  single  question, 
as  he  has  asked  me  some  questions. 


372 

Professor  MARSH.  I  am  not  on  the  witness'-stand. 
Mr.  BOSLER.  It  is  only  one  question. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Is  there  any  objection  to  his  stating  the  question  now? 
Professor  MARSH.  I  would  rather  it  would  come  up  in  the  regular 
order. 

Mr.  BOSLER.  Just  one  question,  Yes  or  No. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  The  Professor  objects. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  You  had  better  postpone  it,  as  the  Professor  objects. 


WASHINGTON,  I).  C., 
Tuesday,  September  14,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

The  examination  of  Mr.  J.  W.  BOSLER  was  resumed. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question.  Do  you  understand  what  report  is  referred  to  by  Professor 
Marsh  when  he  speaks  of  the  report  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  excluding  you  from  participation  in  future  contracts? 

Answer.  I  do  not ;  but  I  think  he  refers  to  Mr.  Welsh's  letters,  or 
what  Mr.  W^elsh  says  in  his  pamphlet  on  that  subject.  His  pamphlet  is 
an  argument  before  the  Sub-committee  on  Appropriations,  which  was 
called  upon  to  investigate  these  matters  in  the  Congress  of  1871  and 
'72,  I  think. 

Q.  Of  which  Mr.  Sargent  was  chairman  ? 

A.  Of  which  Mr.  Sargent  was  chairman;  and  these  are  merely  his  con 
clusions  from  that  document. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  That  is  the  Forty  first  Congress,  third  session,  House 
Eeport  No.  30. 

WITNESS.  If  there  was  anything  of  that  kind  said  about  excluding 
ine,  it  was  never  brought  to  my  knowledge  ;  and  I  will  further  state,  in 
this  connection,  that  at  the  first  letting  after  this  iuvestigation«occurred 
there  were  but  two  cents  per  hundred  pounds  between  my  bid  and  that 
of  Cox,  who  was  the  successful  bidder,  I  being  the  highest  bidder;  and 
there  was  considerable  discussion  between  the  chairman  of  the  board — 
Mr.  Stuart,  I  think,  was  chairman — and  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Af 
fairs  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  as  to  whether  they  should  award 
that  contract  to  me,  notwithstanding  I  was  not  the  lowest  bidder.  They 
finally  concluded,  however,  that  they  would  award  it  to  the  lowest  bidder, 
who  was  Mr.  Cox.  The  question  then  came  up  between  Mr.  Stuart  and 
Commissioner  Parker  as  to  whom  they  should  award  the  con  tract  to  in  case 
Cox  did  not  respond.  Mr.  Stuart  then  left  the  city,  delegating  his  authority, 
so  far  as  he  was  concerned,  to  the  Commissioner,  to  have  the  contract 
awarded  to  me.  In  the  following  year  the  board  and  the  Commissioner 
(General  Walker  was  then  Commissioner)  spent  quite  a  while  in  discuss 
ing  the  question  as  to  which  was  the  lowest  bidder — General  Dodge  or 
myself — in  orde^r  to  determine  whom  they  would  award  the  contract  to. 
We  were  both  very  close  bidders,  and  they  awarded  it  to  General 
Dodge  as  the  result  of  their  conclusion.  His  bid  was  the  lowest.  The 
next  year  after  that  I  was  not  at  the  letting  at  all.  I  sent  in  a  bid, 
but  it  was  considerably  higher  than  most  of  them. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  This  evidence  was  offered  in  response  to  a  question,  what  testi- 


373 

mony  he  could  refer  us  to  to  establish  his  proposition  that  the  "  well- 
known  Bosler"  was  notorious  for  fraud  in  previous  contracts,  and  for 
this  reason  excluded  by  the  public  regulation  from  any  participation  in 
future  contracts? 

A.  He  referred  to  those  documents. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  have  any  evidence  to  show  that  you  were  not  charged 
by  any  of  the  Indian  Commissioners  or  anybody  else  with  previous 
frauds,  we  wish  you  to  tell  us  what  it  is. 

A.  I  never  have.  There  never  has  been  a  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  or  a  Secretary  of  the  Interior  since  1860  that  I  have  not  done  busi 
ness  with.  I  mean  I  have  done  business  with  them  all. 

Q.  There  has  been  something  said  about  a  duplicate  receipt  for 
$17,000,  and  that  you  drew  the  amount  twice  ? 

A.  I  never  did  it. 

Q.  Was  there  such  a  fact ? 

A.  There  was  a  discrepancy  between  the  accounts  of  Agent  French 
and  Agent  Livingston.  It  was  a  matter  entirely  with  them.  I  had  noth 
ing  to  do  with  the  contract.  It  was  in  1869  or  1870 — 1870,  I  think. 
It  was  a  question  as  to  whose  receipts  should  be  paid. 

Q.  What  was  the  receipt  for  ? 

A.  For  cattle. 

Q.  Who  furnished  the  cattle? 

A.  The  cattle  were  furnished  by  Morrow. 

Q.  Were  you  interested  in  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  was  interested  in  the  contract,  but  I  was  not  interested  in  the 
settlement  of  the  matter  between  Morrow  and  the  Department. 

Q..  Who  delivered  the  cattle? 

A.  Morrow  did. 

Q.  Did  you  obtain  a  receipt  for  the  cattle? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  obtain  duplicate  receipts  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Government  ever  twice  pay  for  those  cattle? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  never.  I  will  tell  you  all  about  that  matter.  The  facts 
are  these :  Major  French  was  assigned  to  duty  at  the  Crow  Creek 
agency  as  an  acting  agent  for  about  a  year.  The  first  year  of  President 
Grant's  administration,  he  tried  the  experiment  of  the  Army  taking 
charge  of  the  Indian  business,  and  the  assignment  of  military  officers  as 
agents.  Major  French  received  some  four  hundred-odd  head  of  cattle 
of  Mr.  Morrow  on  contract,  for  which  he  gave  his  receipt.  About  ten 
days  afterward  he  was  relieved  by  Agent  Livingston.  Agent  Living 
ston  refused  to  receive  these  cattle  of  Agent  French,  on  the  ground  that 
Agent  French  had  received  them  in  excess  of  the  wants  of  the  agency, 
and  he  did  not  want  to  take  care  of  them.  French  went  away  and  left 
the  cattle  there.  Livingston  did  not  appear  to  take  charge  of  "them,  did 
not  take  charge  of  them,  and  there  the  matter  stood  until  French  came 
to  settle  up  his  accounts,  about  four  or  five  years  afterward.  French's 
receipt  was  presented,  and  the  cattle  paid  for  ;  and  the  question  arose 
between  those  two  gentlemen  as  to  who  was  responsible  for  the  cattle. 
It  was  neglect  on  the  part  of  Livingston  in  not  having  taken  charge  of 
the  cattle.  There  was  no  doubt  but  that  a  large  number  of  them  were 
lost  to  the  Government,  but  when  they  applied  to  Livingston  to  know 
wrhat  had  become  of  them,  he  made  some  report  in  reference  to  it,  and 
threw  the  responsibility  upon  Morrow,  the  contractor.  That  was  five 
years  ago. 

Q.  Was  there  any  compromise? 


374 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  made  by  Morrow  witU  the  Government. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  your  money  from  the  Government  upon  the  first 
receipt? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  money  yours  or  Morrow's  ? 

A.  It  was  Morrow's;  he  was  the  contractor,  and  I  was  an  interested 
party  in  it. 

Q.  Well,  then  did  Morrow  make  a  compromise  of  that  matter  after 
ward  •? 

A.  Y^es,  sir;  he  made  a  compromise,  and  his  letter  will  show  the  rea 
son  why  he  did  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  compromise  ? 

A.  1  don't  know  whether  it  has  been  entirely  carried  out  yet ;  it  is  a 
matter  that  only  came  up  a  few  months  ago. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  heard  of  the  transaction  at  Omaha,  that  Mr.  Morrow  had  a  re 
ceipt  from  Mr.  French,  or  some  other  person,  for  four  hundred  cattle. 
Upon  that  he  received  some  $16,000;  when  the  second  agent,  whoever 
he  was,  came  in  he  gave  him  another  and  more  formal  receipt,  and 
upon  that  he  received  $16,000. 

A.  That  part  of  it  is  entirely  incorrect. 

Q.  I  don't  think  these  facts  I  heard  are  incorrect;  I  got  them  directly 
from  the  lips  of  the  United  States  district  attorney  ;  and  this  is-  his 
statement:  that  Morrow  received  $16,000  a  second  time  from  the  Govern 
ment,  by  the  carelessness  of  the  officers  of  the  Government ;  and  there 
upon,  as  the  District  Attorney  informed  me,  he  was  directed  to  institute 
suit  against  Morrow.  I  don't  think  he  embraced  you  in  the  transaction. 

A.  No. 

Q.  Nor  did  he  bring  a  suit  upon  the  bond,  because  he  was  clearly  of 
opinion  that  no  legal  liability  existed  on  the  bond ;  that  the  condition 
of  the  bond  did  not  cover  the  precise  transaction.  That  was  the  subject 
of  litigation,  but  he  brought  suit  in  behalf  of  the  United  States  against 
Morrow. 

A.  Against  Morrow  and  his  bondsmen. 

Q.  No,  he  brought  suit  against  those  whom  he  supposed  to  be  partners 
in  the  transaction,  but  not  upon  the  bond ;  and  it  was  compromised,  as  I 
understood  him  to  say.  and  he  himself  recommended  that  the  matter 
be  compromised  by  Morrow  furnishing  cattle  valued  to  the  amount  of 
$16,000  ;  but  he  told  me  he  had  not  yet  dismissed  the  suit;  that  he  could 
get  no  official  information  whether  the  compromise  had  been  made  be 
tween  the  Government  and  Morrow,  or  whether  Morrow  had  complied 
with  the  terms  of  the  compromise.  So  the  suit  is  now  pending  in  the 
district  court  of  the  United  States  at  Omaha. 

A.  That  is  correct,  and  for  that  reason  I  feel  a  little  hesitation  in 
making  my  exact  knowledge  of  that  transaction  matter  of  record  here, 
for  if  they  get  into  a  suit  about  it  I  might  be  called  as  a  witness  in  the 
case.  I  would  give  to  the  commissioners  privately  an  exact  statement 
of  the  whole  transaction,  with  the  understanding  that  if  Morrow  should 
get  into  legal  difficulty  that  information  should  not  be  used  against 
him. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  The  order  received  by  the  United  States  district  attor 
ney  from  the  Department  of  Justice  was,  that  he  should  dismiss  this  suit 
of  the  United  States  against  Morrow  and  others,  if  there  be  others  ;  then 
there  is  superadded,  in  different  handwriting,  (I  saw  the  letter  myself, 
manifestly  in  the  handwriting  of  the  Attorney-General  himself,)  "  pro- 


375 

vided  he  has  complied  with  the  terms  of  the  compromise."  The  District 
Attorney  says  that  he  had  110  knowledge  that  Morrow  had  complied  with 
the  terms  of  the  compromise,  and  he  conferred  with  me  as  to  how  he 
should  address  a  letter  to  ascertain  the  fact  whether  the  compromise  had 
been  complied  with  or  not.  I  told  him  the  proper  course  would  be  to 
correspond  with  the  Department  of  Justice,  and  let  the  Attorney-Gen 
eral  refer  his  letter  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs  to  ascertain  wrhether  the  contractor  had  complied  with 
the  compromise  by  delivering  cattle  to  the  value  of  $16,000. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  I  want  to  get  at,  Mr.  Bosler,  is  whether  you  have  knowledge 
of  the  fact  that  the  sum  of  $16,000  has  been  twice  paid  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not.  The  compromise  was  really  made  by  Morrow 
at  the  solicitation  of  the  bondsmen,  they  being  fearful  that  their  stand 
ing  and  credit  might  suffer  in  connection  with  a  suit  of  that  nature. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Thursday,  August  12,  1875. 

COUNCIL  WITH  ABAPAHOES  AND  CHEYENNES. 

The  Arapahoes  and  Cheyennes  who  were  not  present  at  the  council 
with  the  Ogallala  Sioux  desired  to  be  heard  in  their  own  behalf,  although 
they  wished  it  to  be  distinctly  understood  that  they  all  are  friends,  and 
live  together  as  one  people.  Accordingly,  an  interview  was  arranged  for 
them  in  the  agent's  office,  where  they  met  the  commissioners  this  after 
noon.  Black  Coal  spoke  for  the  Arapahoes,  and  Little  Wolf  for  the 
Cheyennes.  Friday,  an  Arapahoe,  who  speaks  English  well,  interpreted 
for  his  people,  and  William  Bowland  performed  a  similar  service  for  the 
Cheyennes.  Jules  Ecoffee  was  present  also,  and  assisted  the  interpreters. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  had  a  talk  with  the  Sioux  yesterday,  and  we  hear 
that  you  would  like  to  talk  with  us.  We  are  glad  to  see  you,  and  we 
want  to  talk  to  you.  We  want  to  tell  you  what  we  came  here  for.  The 
Great  Father  heard  that  bad  white  men  had  been  treating  you  badly  and 
cheating  you  out  of  your  provisions  and  supplies  and  annuity  goods, 
and  he  sent  us  out  here  to  learn  if  these  things  were  true.  The  Great 
Father  was  told  that  some  bad  white  men  had  been  cheating  him  and 
cheating  you,  and  we  want  to  find  out  if  that  is  so.  He  heard  that  last 
winter  your  people  did  not  have  enough  to  eat,  and  suffered  a  great  deal 
for  the  want  of  clothing,  and  if  that  was  so  we  want  you  to  tell  us  all 
about  it  now. 

BLACK  COAL.  I  only  came  here  a  short  time  ago,  last  fall,  with  my  vil 
lage.  I  only  know  a  little,  because  I  have  not  been  here  long,  but  I  can  tell 
as  far  as  I  have  seen — seen  myself  sometimes,  not  often:  When  I  got  my 
rations,  once  in  a  while  I  got  bad  rations.  Some  of  the  pork  was  spoiled 
in  the  barrels.  We  knew  that,  because  when  we  came  to  boil  it  we  saw 
that  it  was  bad.  Some  of  the  coffee  was  mildewed,  and  some  of  the 
sugar  was  this  yellow  sugar.  Most  of  it  was  good  sugar.  When  I  first 
came  here  I  got  good  tobacco,  but  after  I  remained  here  I  got  some  bad 
tobacco,  and  when  I  cut  it  to  smoke  it  I  found  sticks  in  it,  and  it  was 
bad  and  made  my  head  ache.  You  four  commissioners  that  have  been 
sent  out  here  by  the  Great  Father,  I  wish  you  would  listen  to  me  and  take 
pity  upon  me.  I  am  glad  to  see  you.  This  is  the  first  time  I  have 
spoken  about  my  country.  I  have  kept  still,  but  I  am  glad  to  see  you 


376 

who  are  just  from  Washington,  and  I  am  not  afraid  to  speak  out.  I  call 
this  country  mine.  These  Cheyennes  were  born  here  in  this  country. 
They  are  my  friends,  and  I  wish  you  to  listen  to  us  to-day,  and  see  that 
we  get  good  grub.  Last  fall,  when  I  had  a  little  council  with  the  com 
missioners,  they  wanted  us  to  go  to  the  south,  but  I  told  them  I 
was  raised  in  this  country  and  liked  it,  and  could  not  leave  it.  They 
wanted  me  to  go  to  the  south.  I  said  1  was  not  raised  there,  and  did 
not  want  to  go.  I  have  still  got  this  in  my  head,  and  I  don't  want  to 
leave  here.  I  want  to  remain  here  with  the  Sioux.  The  Great  Spirit 
listens  to  me  to-day  and  hears  the  way  I  talk.  I  am  not  afraid  to  say  it. 
The  Great  Spirit  gave  us  this  place  here.  Look  at  me  and  my  people 
and  the  clothes  they  have.  I  have  never  got  anything  yet  for  my  laud. 
It  is  part  mine,  and  part  the  Sioux.  I  like  them.  They  are  what  I  call 
"big  friends."  They  are  a  big  tribe.  In  the  first  place,  they  came  from 
the  Missouri  River  and  reached  this  place,  and  now  they  have  got  up 
this  far,  and  they  claim  all  this  laud.  I  want  to  stay  here  because  I 
like  the  Sioux.  Now  you  have  just  come  from  Washington  and  the 
Great  Father,  and  you  are  the  same  as  the  Great  Father,  and  to-day  you 
must  take  pity  on  us,  and  you  must  tell  the  Great  Father  what  we  want. 
We  would  like  to  get  cows  to  raise,  dud  we  would  like  to  be  shown  how 
to  raise  corn  and  stock.  That  is  what  I  want.  I  am  very  glad  to  see 
you  to-day,  and  hope  you  will  tell  the  Great  Father  about  it  when  you  go 
back. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  will  tell  the  Great  Father  of  this.  We  want  you 
to  have  sheep  and  raise  wool  like  the  Navajoes. 

BLACK  COAL.  Another  thing  I  have  got  to  say  is  something  about  the 
Black  Hills,  for  my  friends  the  Sioux.  The  first  commissioners  who  came 
here  had  a  council  with  the  Sioux  about  the  Black  Hills.  They  wanted 
to  buy  them,  and  they  promised  to  keep  the  whites  off;  but  the  whites 
did  not  listen.  They  came  in  on  the  sly  and  stole  the  gold.  They  did 
not  wait  till  the  commissioners  got  through.  The  commissioners  had 
gone  to  see  the  tribes  on  the  Missouri  Kiver,  and  I  am  very  glad  to  see 
now  that  these  miners  have  all  left  the  Black  Hills  ;  I  don't  want  to  see 
any  trouble  between  my  friend's.  My  people  belong  to  the  Northern 
Arapahoes;  some  of  my  people  have  gone  south,  and  I  want  them  to 
come  back.  Now  I  will  talk  about  the  goods  we  get.  Sometimes  we 
get  little  2  and  2J  point  blankets,  and  some  of  us  are  very  tall,  and  of 
course  they  are  good  blankets,  but  they  are  all  very  small.  This  time, 
when  they  bring  blankets  to  give  us,  we  want  5  point  blankets,  larger 
than  those  we  have  been  getting,  as  those  we  have  been  getting  are  too 
small.  All  the  country  south  of  here  belongs  to  me,  and  I  have  been 
driven  back.  All  my  people  were  born  here,  and  that  is  the  reason  I  call 
this  my  country.  I  never  got  paid  for  that  land.  In  old  times  my  grand 
fathers,  who  are  all  dead  now,  the  first  time  they  saw  a  white  man  he 
taught  them  how  to  shoot  and  to  wear  clothes. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Would  you  like  to  have  some  clothes  like  the  white 
men  for  your  people  1 

BLACK  COAL.  Yes,  sir ;  we  would  like  to  have  good  clothes,  coats, 
pantaloons,  and  hats,  just  the  same  as  you  wear.  You  showed  us  first  how 
to  wear  clothes.  I  am  very  glad  if  the  white  man  shows  me  any  thing. 
We  used  to  live  first  rate  before  the  soldiers  came  to  this  country  ;  when 
they  came,  the  first  thing  they  did  was  to  try  to  raise  a  war.  We  used 
to  travel  with  the  old  mountaineers,  but  since  these  soldiers  came  into 
this  country  they  have  spoiled  every  thing  and  want  war. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  want  peace  always  now,  and  we  want  the  Arapa- 
hoes  and  Cheyennes  to  have  a  heap  of  cattle  and  sheep  in  this  country. 


377 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Are  tbere  any  other  complaints  you  have  to  make  f 

BLACK  COAL.  The  Arapahoes  are  called  the  peace  tribe.  I  never 
begin  war.  When  I  make  peace,  1  always  keep  it.  That  is  the  way  with 
all  the  Arapahoes ;  and  I  ain  very  glad  you  say  you  will  give  me  all  these 
things  to  raise. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  don't  promise  you  all  these  things  ;  but  we  want 
you  to  have  them,  and  we  will  tell  the  Great  Father  what  you  want  him 
to  do. 

BLACK  COAL.  We  have  some  horses,  and  we  have  our  stock  that  we 
raised  ourselves ;  and  we  want  cows  and  chickens,  hogs  and  sheep. 
We  want  all  these  things  but  horses  ;  we  have  them. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  your  people  suffer  for  anything  to  eat  last  win 
ter  ?  That  is  what  we  want  to  know. 

BLACK  COAL.  There  is  one  thing  I  want  to  say  to  you.  I  have  heard 
something  about  changing  the  agent  we  have  now.  We  don't  want  a 
military  officer  for  our  agent.  We  want  a  citizen,  the  same  as  we  have 
now.  I  can't  say  where,  but  I  saw  the  trouble  last  winter.  We  suffered 
last  winter;  everybody  knows  it;  the  agent  and  all  know  it.  The  snow 
was  the  cause  of  it  between  here  and  Cheyenne ;  it  prevented  them 
from  coming  over.  The  teams  could  not  get  here  on  that  account.  We 
have  not  got  much  to  eat  since  we  came  to  this  agency.  Since  we  have 
been  counted  they  give  us  something  ;  but  we  don't  get  enough.  When 
we  were  on  the  Platte  we  used  to  get  a  great  deal ;  but  since  they  have 
moved  the  agency  we  have  suffered  for  something  to  eat.  We  don't  get 
enough.  I  have  not  got  two  tongues.  I  have  only  one  tongue.  [E 
speak  the  truth.]  We  draw  rations  every  ten  days,  and  we  eat  it  all 
up  in  four  days,  and  then  its  all  gone.  Well,  that's  all. 

LITTLE  WOLF,  of  the  Cheyeunes,  was  asked  by  the  chairman  to  state 
what  he  knew  in  regard  to  their  provisions.  He  said  :  Our  provisions  fall 
short  occasionally  on  ration-day.  I  have  not  much  to  say.  I  have  been 
well  treated  since  I  have  been  here.  I  have  sent  for  the  balance  of  my 
people  who  are  out. north  to  come  here,  and  I  wish  to  remain  here,  and 
I  want  you  to  tell  my  Great  Father  so. 

WILD  HOG.  I  was  born  right  here  in^this  country,  and  I  want  to  re 
main  here.  The  Sioux,  Cheyennes,  and  Arapahoes  are  pretty  much  the 
same  people,  and  we  all  wish  to  live  together.  ^.Occasionally  we  draw 
rations  here,  and  they  fall  short,  just  as  Little  Wolf  has  told  you. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  are  glad  to  have  heard  you  talk. 


ANOTHER  TALK  WITH  SITTING  BULL. 

The  commissioners  then  adjourned  to  another  apartment  in  the  agent's 
office,  where  they  met  Sitting  Bull  and  other  Indians  who  had  expressed 
a  wish  to  have  another  informal  talk.  Among  those  present  were  chiefly 
Sitting  Bull,  Old-Man-Afraid-of-his-Horse,  Face,  Friday,  Hole-in-the- 
Ground,  Wolf-ear,  Fast-thunder,  Shoulder,  and  Fire-thunder. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  are  now  ready  to  hear  what  you  have  to  say. 

SITTING  BULL.  We  want  to  tell  you  about  Professor  Marsh.  When 
he  was  here  we  protected  him  from  getting  into  trouble,  myself— Face, 
and  Fast-cloud.  He  came  here  outside  the  stockade,  and  said  he  was 
going  out  to  pick  up  petrified  bones.  He  asked  me  to  go  with  him,  and 
some  other  Indians.  About  that  time  all  the  Indians  got  news  that  he 


378 

was  going  out.  I  asked  him  to  pay  us  by  the  day  for  going  with  him, 
at  the  rate  of  $10  a  day,  for  going  with  him  as  scouts.  He  said  he  was 
poor,  and  did  not  want  to  pay  that  much  ;  and  we  asked  him  then  for 
f  5  a  day  ;  then  he  said  he  would  give  us  $1.50  a  day  for  going.  When 
he  did  not  offer  us  enough,  we  said  we  would  not  let  him  go,  because 
there  were  too  many  Indians  there.  The  Indians  told  me  if  I  went  they 
would  shoot  me.  The  Indians  had  just  got  their  annuity-goods  at  that 
time,  arid  were  all  camped  over  there,  and  we  asked  Professor  Marsh  to 
wait  until  they  had  gone.  Then  the  Indians  said,  because  I  allowed  him 
to  go,  they  would  kill  me,  and  I  came  near  getting  into  trouble  on  his 
account.  I  told  them  I  was  going  out  with  him  any  way,  and  they 
might  shoot  if  they  wanted  to.  I  asked  Professor  Marsh  to  wait  until 
they  moved  off,  for  I  said  "  If  you  go  now  you  will  get  into  trouble  ; "  but 
he  would  not  listen  to  me,  but  went  on  before  we  saw  him  j  he  started 
in  the  night ;  he  may  have  gone  in  the  day-time,  but  we  did  not  see 
him  go.  I  had  a  talk  with  the  Sioux  about  Professor  Marsh,  and  the 
next  morning  I  went  hunting  on  the  Republican.  Sword  knows  more 
about  it,  but  he  is  not  here  ;  but  you  might  have  a  talk  with  him,  and 
he  will  tell  you  something  more.  I  don't  know  anything  about  Red 
Cloud  taking  those  things  out  of  the  commissary.  We  asked  for  good 
food,  and  they  put  dirt  into  those  samples  to  make  them  look  bad,  so 
that  they  would  get  better  grub ;  we  don't  know  anything  about  Red 
Cloud  taking  those  things  out  of  the  commissary  and  sending  them 
down  there.  Face  saw  Red  Cloud  putting  up  the  samples  to  give  them 
to  Professor  Marsh ;  they  were  not  taken  from  the  commissary. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Where  were  they  taken  from  ? 

FACE.  They  were  to  send  it  out  of  the  things  that  they  got  from  the 
agent.  I  mean  that  Red  Cloud  did  not  get  it  from  the  commissary. 

Mr.  ATHEBTON.  Where  did  Red  Cloud  get  it  ? 

FACE.  I  don't  know  anything  about  Red  Cloud  getting  anything 
there,  and  no  one  here  knows  anything  about  where  he  got  the  stuff. 

SITTING  BULL.  I  was  in  there  when  they  were  talking  about  sending 
those  things  down,  but  I  don't  know  who  put  them  up. 

FACE.  We  had  the  same  food  at  the  old  agency  as  we  have  here,  and 
the  same  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here.  We  would  like  to  explain 
to  you  about  our  goods.  We  had  goods  here  last  fall  for  twenty-one 
different  bands ;  there  were  more  than  one  hundred  that  did  not  get 
anything.  The  reason  was  that  we  were  registered  when  the  people 
were  away,  and  when  the  goods  came  here  there  was  not  enough,  to  go 
round.  We  had  all  come  back.  That  is  all  we  have  to  say. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  are  ver5T  glad  you  have  talked  to  us,  and  we 
have  put  down  all  you  have  said,  and  we  will  take  it  back  with  us. 

After  the  interview,  Sitting  Bull  came  forward  and  said  that  the  young 
men  and  himself  wanted  their  present  agent.  Dr.  Saville,  to  remain,  and 
they  wanted  this  fact  stated  in  the  report  of  the  commissioners. 


TALK  WITH  TURKEY-LEG. 

Turkey-Leg,  of  the  Cheyennes,  called  on  the  commission  and  requested 
to  have  a  talk.  Among  the  other  Cheyenne  Indians  present  were  Ver- 
million,  Spotted  Elk,  Big  Thigh,  Old  Bear,  Walking  Eagle,  and  Calf 
skin  Shirt. 

William  Rowland  acted  as  interpreter. 


379 

TURKEY-LEG  said  :  My  fathers  were  raised  in  this  country  ;  lived  and 
died  here,  and  all  the  Cheyennes  here  consider  this  country  as  much 
theirs  as  the  Sioux's,  and  we  wish  to  remain  here  with  the  Sioux.  I  am 
glad  to  see  you  men.  I  think  you  are  good  men,  and  I  wish  you  to  listen 
to  what  I  have  to  say,  and  to  tell  my  Great  Father  what  I  say  when  you 
go  back.  I  am  going  to  tell  you  the  truth  ;  a  great  many  Indians  'lie, 
but  I  have  but  one  tongue,  and  am  going  to  tell  you  nothing  but  the 
truth.  I  have  been  at  the  agency,  on  the  reservation,  for  four  years,  and 
have  never  left  it,  and  I  have  tried  to  keep  peace  with  the  whites.  We 
came  to  this  agency  with  the  Red  Cloud  Sioux,  and  we  wish  to  remain 
with  them.  When  you  go  back  I  want  you  to  tell  my  Great  Father  that 
I  am  poor  and  my  people  are  poor,  and  I  wish  to  have  some  more  an 
nuity  goods.  They  have  been  giving  the  Sioux  cattle  and  horses.  I 
would  like  to  have  some  cattle  and  some  horses  too.  Also,  I  would  like 
to  have  a  few  wagons  for  my  people.  They  live  in  this  country,  and 
they  would  like  to  have  some  wagons  to  haul  wood  and  lumber  to  build 
houses.  Also,  I  w*ould  like  to  have  a  few  chickens  and  hogs  and  sheep. 
I  hope  you  will  listen  to  me  and  take  these  words  of  mine  back  to  my 
Great  Father  and  ask  him  to  assist  me. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Would  you  like  to  live  in  houses  permanently  fixed  ? 

TURKEY-LEG-.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  reason  I  ani  asking  you  for  these 
hogs  and  chickens  and  wagons ;  there  is  no  more  chance  to  live  by  get 
ting  game  on  the  prairie. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  These  men  here  [pointing  to  Mr.  Faulkner  and  Mr. 
Harris]  belong  to  the  Great  Council  of  the  Great  Father,  and  they  will 
put  your  words  before  the  Council.  We  are  very  glad  to  hear  you  talk, 
and  we  want  to  do  you  all  the  good  we  can,  but  our  business  here  is  only 
to  learn  if  your  people  have  got  their  rations  and  annuity  goods  hereto 
fore,  and  to  learn  if  anybody  has  done  them  any  wrong. 

TURKEY- LEG.  For  the  last  four  years,  since  Dr.  Daniels  started  the 
agency  on  the  North  Platte,  except  within  the  last  year,  I  have  received 
enough  annuities,  but  since  then  the  amount  has  been  small. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Do  you  think  you  could  make  your  living  on  this 
land  by  farming  if  you  were  furnished  with  wagons  and  farming  imple 
ments  I 

A.  I  have  never  tried  to  make  a  form — a  few  are  living  like  white 
men — but  I  think  if  \ve  had  the  implements  we  could  do  so. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Were  the  supplies  you  received  last  winter  good? 

TURKEY-LEG.  The  flour,  sugar,  and  coffee  have  been  very  good,  every 
thing  except  the  pork ;  we  had  some  pork  which  was  not  good.  All 
the  other  grub  was  good  enough  if  we  had  more  of  it.  The  first  tobacco 
that  came  on  here  was  in  big,  flat  plugs,  and  was  good  tobacco,  but  the 
last  was  not  good  and  burnt  our  tongues, 

Mr.  HARRIS.  How  was  it  about  the  blankets  ? 

TURKEY  LEG.  I  don't  know  about  that  ;  I  received  enough  for  my 
people, 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Would  the  young  men  of  your  tribe  like  to  live  and 
dress  like  the  white  people  ? 

TURKEY  LEG.  I  don't  know  that  all  of  them  would  do  so  at  once,  but 
they  would  gradually  come  to  it  in  time.  These  clothes  that  I  have  on 
I  learned  to  wear  from  the  white  man.  I  have  never  been  to  Washing 
ton  to  see  my  Great  Father,  and  all  I  know  about  it  is  when  men  like 
you  come  here,  and  I  want  to  send  what  I  say  to  you  by  you  to  my 
Great  Father. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Every  word  you  say  is  put  down  and  will  be  shown 


380 

to  the  great  council.  We  think  you  have  spoken  well  and  said  what  is 
good. 

TURKEY  LEO.  Dr.  Saville  knows  me  since  I  have  been  here ;  he  knows 
I  have  been  a  good  man  to  my  people;  and  he  has  been  a  good  man 
to  me.  I  have  heard  some  few  of  the  Sioux  speaking  bad  about  Dr. 
Saville,  but  as  for  myself  I  like  him  very  much. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Would  the  young  men  of  your  tribe  be  willing  to 
work  themselves  in  building  houses  if  they  had  the  materials,  and  white 
men  to  show  them  how  to  use  them  ? 

TURKEY  LEG.  I  think  most  of  them  would.  You  asked  me  that  be 
fore,  and  I  told  you  all  I  wanted  was  the  implements,  and  if  we  had 
them  I  think  a  majority  of  the  men  would  go  to  work. 

Mr.  FAULKNER,  We  wish  you  to  distinctly  understand  that  we  came 
here  with  no  authority  to  make  any  promises  whatever  ;  that  we  came 
here  merely  in  pursuit  of  information  to  report  to  the  Great  Father. 

TURKEY  LEO.  I  understand.  And  I  wish  to  say  Jhat  half  of  us  are 
now  living  out  of  doors  and  we  want  shelter.  If  we  don't  have  houses 
we  must  have  tents  at  the  next  distribution  of  annuities. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Thursday,  August  12,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  the  agent,  appeared  and  presented  the  following 
statement  in  reply  t'o  Professor  Marsh's  charges: 

DR.  SAYILLE'S  ANSWER. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 

August  12,  1875. 

Answer  of  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency, 
to  the  charges  made  by  Professor  Marsh. 

CHARGE  I. — The  Indian  agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency. 

In  reply  to  this  charge,  I  will  say,  in  regard  to  Red  Cloud's  and  Profes 
sor  Marsh's  opinion  as  to  my  vacillating  character,  I  have  nothing  to 
say,  but  leave  it  to  the  commissioners  to  apply  to  those  who  have  had 
better  opportunity  of  ascertaining  as  to  my  competency.  Professor 
Marsh  had  little  opportunity,  and  did  not  take  advantage  of  what  he  had, 
to  ascertain  anything  about  my  method  of  dealing  with  Indians,  as  to 
whether  there  is  any  system  in  my  management  of  affairs  here.  As  to 
the  occurrence  to  which  he  refers  in  this  charge,  which  he  calls  an  "act 
of  folly,"  I  refer  to  my  letter  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  of 
October  24.  1874,  telegram  and  letter  of  same  date.  Upon  refer 
ring  to  my  abstracts  of  issues,  I  find  what  Professor  Marsh  charac 
terizes  as  fraud  is  a  clerical  error  in  the  clerk  placing  the  figures  oppo 
site  the  date  of  the  8th  instead  of  the  1st  of  November,  as  it  should  be. 
Furthermore,  that  the  forms  upon  which  these  abstracts  are  made  do  not 
and  cannot  represent  all  the  facts  connected  with  the  issue  of  provisions, 
and,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  all  the  issues  are  not  made  upon  the  first 
dates,  but,  as  it  will  be  observed,  they  are  to  date  from  the  8th  to  the 


381 

14th,  and  from  the  15th  to  the  22d,  and  so  on  ;  and  that  the  issues  are 
made  on  either  of  the  days  between  these  two  dates ;  that  the  issues  of 
beef  are  always  made  on  different  days  from  the  issue  of  other  rations, 
and  that  these  dates  represent  the  number  of  days  for  which  the  amount 
of  rations  set  opposite  these  days  are  given,  and  that  they  foot  up  an 
aggregate  of  the  correct  amount  of  provisions  that  are  issued  during 
the  quarter,  each  month's  issue  being  divided  into  four  parts,  and  thus 
entered  on  the  abstracts.  Heretofore  the  beef  has  always  been  issued 
every  ten  days,  the  Indians  having  firmly  resisted  any  change  to  the 
seven  or  eight  days7  issues.  Further,  in  regard  to  the  withholding  of 
rations,  I  refer  to  my  telegram  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
of  October  19,  1874,  telegram  and  letter  of  same  date.  In  reply  to 
the  allusion  to  the  report  of  Inspector  Bevier,  I  refer  to  my  letter  of 
November  12, 1874. 

In  reference  to  Professor  Marsh's  visit  to  this  agency,  I  refer  to  my 
monthly  report  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  for  November, 
1874. 

CHARGE  II. — Number  of  Indians  at  the  agency  over-estimated. 

I  will  state  that  this  charge  has  been  a  constant  complaint  of  all 
fault-tinders  ever  since  I  have  been  at  this  agency,  and  there  has  been 
no  time  since  I  have  been  here  but  what  I  have  earnestly  endeavored 
to  obtain  the  correct  number  of  Indians  to  be  fed  at  the  agency,  and 
there  has  constantly  been  a  resistance  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  to 
allow  their  correct  numbers  to  be  known.  It  has  been  the  source  of  the 
greatest  part  of  the  difficulties  which  I  have  encountered  in  my  work 
here.  For  a  detailed  statement  of  this  question,!  will  refer  to  my  letter 
to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  under  date  of  September  27, 
1873;  also  to  my  report  of  the  number  of  Indians  receiving  rations 
at  this  agency,  dated  December  29,  1873 ;  also  to  a  report  of  a  council 
held  December  29,  1873  j  letter  of  February  2,  1874,  to  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  letters  of  February  14,  March  24,  and 
October  19,  1874,  and  telegram  of  same  date  to  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs,  and  to  correspondence  with  Major  Mears ;  also  to 
letter  of  November  5,  1874,  and  the  statement  of  the  number  of 
Indians,  by  actual  count,  made  under  date  of  November  13,  1874. 

I  will  further  reply  that  Professor  Marsh  is  incorrect  in  his  statement 
that  I  said  that  the  Northern  Indians  "  were  in  camp  within  a  short  dis 
tance  of  the  agency,  on  the  north  side  of  White  River."  I  stated  that 
they  were  camped  on  a  creek  beyond  the  Bad  Lands,  where  he  wished  to 
go  for  bones  j  and  this  statement  1  gave  from  information  received  from 
Indians. 

Professor  Marsh's  estimate  of  the  number  of  Indians  at  this  agency 
is  purely  conjecture,  he  having  no  means  of  ascertaining  the  truth  ot 
any  such  statements. 

CHARGE  III. — Issue  of  annuity -goods. 

Professor  Marsh's  quoting  of  the  supposed  words  of  Red  Dog  only 
shows  his  ignorance  of  Indian  character  and  the  situation  of  affairs  at 
the  agency,  and  illustrates  the  worthlessuess  of  all  his  observations 
while  here.  If  he  had  gone  to  the  other  head  men  who  were  receiving 
annuities,  and  made  inquiries  of  them,  they  would  probably  have  as 


382 

sured  him  that  Eed  Dog  was  getting  much  more  than  his  share,  and 
they  were  getting  much  less  than  theirs  ;  and  that  their  complaints  of 
the  small  number  of  blankets  was  what  would  always  occur,  under  any 
circumstances.  But,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Indians  did  not  get  enough 
goods  for  the  number  receiving ;  and  this  fact  was  duly  reported  by  me 
to  the  Department.  I  will  further  say  that  this  affidavit  of  Louis  Rich 
ard  Reshaw  is  a  characteristic  one,  and  shows  how  easy  it  is  for  design 
ing  persons  to  obtain  affidavits  from  such  men  as  Richard  about  things 
they  know  little  or  nothing. 

Of  the  evidence  in  regard  to  the  number  of  blankets  issued,  I  shall 
present  my  books  and  papers,  bills  of  lading  of  the  railroad,  and  of  the 
freighters  at  Cheyenne  to  the  agency,  and  the  testimony  of  the  em 
ployes  who  assisted  in  issuing  them,  and  of  Red  Cloud  and  other  In 
dians  who  received  the  goods.  I  further  state  that  my  returns  show 
that  there  were  thirty-seven  bales  issued,  and  not  thirty-five,  as  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  states.  I  can  say  that  I  have  never  observed  that  the 
stamp  had  injured  the  blankets,  and  have  never  heard  any  complaints 
in  regard  to  it  ;  but  that  is  a  question  between  the  Department  and  the 
contractors,  and  for  which  I  am  not  responsible. 

I  will  say  here,  in  regard  to  the  protest  against  the  manner  of  the 
issue,  that  it  has  always  been  customary  to  issue  goods  of  this  kind  in 
this  manner  in  one  day,  and  that  the  Indians  would  not  receive  them  in 
any  other  way  if  I  had  attempted  to  issue  them  differently. 

In  regard  to  the  time  of  delivering  the  goods,  I  will  state  that  the 
first  goods  received  at  Cheyenne  was  September  20.  These  were  im 
mediately  loaded,  and  the  first  received  at  the  agency  was  October  6  ; 
the  last  blankets  arriving  at  the  agency  October  26 ;  and  they  were 
then  withheld  by  order  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  which 
order  was  issued  at  my  request  in  order  to  compel  the  Indians  to 
submit  to  be  counted,  which  I  had  been  so  long  endeavoring  to  ac 
complish. 

CHARGE  IV.— Frauds  in  beef -cattle. 

The  first  statement  in  this  charge  which  affects  me  are  the  words 
of  Professor  Marsh,  given  as  uttered  by  me,  and  which  convey  an  in 
correct  idea  of  what  I  said  to  him.  I  told  him  that  I  did  not  remem 
ber  distinctly  the  facts  about  the  cattle  ;  that  my  impression  was  that 
there  were  six  instead  of  eight,  arid  two  of  them  at  least  were  year- 
lings,  and  had  not  been  received  from  the  contractor ;  and  this  indefi 
nite  statement  Professor  Marsh  tortures  into  his  positive  statement, 
which  I  corrected  twice ;  once  in  presence  of  Bishop  Hare,  when  I  ac 
cused  him  of  perverting  my  words.  Yet,  after  this  correction,  he  pub 
lishes  this  incorrect  statement  as  quoted  from  me.  On  my  return  to  the 
agency  I  found  the  facts  as  follows  :  Two  of  the  eight  cattle  referred  to 
by  Professor  Marsh  were  milch-cows,  one  of  them  belonging  to  Mr. 
Reel,  living  near  Cheyenne,  the  other  a  cow  which  the  herders  had 
milked  all  summer,  and  the  remaining  six  were  a  part  of  the  thirteen 
head  which  I  had  rejected,  and  which,  instead  of  being  taken,  as  usual, 
out  of  the  corral  by  the  Indians,  had  gone  to  the  range  with  the  herd. 
Some  of  these  cattle  were  killed  on  the  range,  as  was  the  case  with  the 
milch-cows,  but  none  of  them  were  issued  to  the  Indians  as  beef,  as  I 
have  never  issued  any  such  cattle  to  them. 

As  before  stated  by  me  under  the  head  of  charge  first,  the  issue  repre 
sented  on  the  abstract  opposite  the  date  of  the  8th  to  the  15th 
should  be  opposite  the  dates  of  the  1st  to  the  7th,  the  issue  there 
represented  having  taken  place  on  the  2d  of  November,  as  is 


383 

shown  by  my  books  ;  the  cattle  which  appear  on  the  papers  as  remain 
ing  on  hand  being  a  portion  of  those  which  had  left  the  herd,  as  reported 
September  28,  and  which  had  not  yet  been  returned  by  the  contractor. 
The  reason  that  they  were  carried  forward  on  the  papers  was  that  it  had 
not  yet  been  satisfactorily  settled  that  they  had  returned  to  the  con 
tractor's  herd,  and  I  carried  them  on  my  papers  until  this  should  be  de 
termined  and  the  cattle  returned. 

CHARGE  V. — Pork  issued  at  the  agency. 

Professor  Marsh  says  the  method  employed  in  distributing  this 
article  to  the  Indians  was  characteristic  of  the  management  of  affairs  at 
this  agency.  "  The  barrels  of  pork  were  rolled  out  of  tue  warehouse  by 
one  of  the  employes,  the  head  of  the  barrels  knocked  in  with  an  axe, 
and  the  contents  turned  upon  the  ground.  The  pieces  of  pork  were  then 
given  to  the  Indians,  who  were  waiting  for  it,  without  being  weighed  or 
any  other  measures  being  taken  to  insure  a  just  distribution.77  This  is 
a  fair  sample  of  the  willful  misstatements  throughout  all  these  charges. 
Professor  Marsh  saw  one  barrel  of  pork  rolled  out  to  a  baud  which  was 
large  enough  to  receive  two  hundred  pounds.  By  their  request  the  bar 
rel  was  knocked  open,  and  they  distributed  it  among  themselves.  All 
the  rest  of  the  pork  was  issued  inside  the  warehouse,  through  an  opening 
into  another  room  into  which  the  Indians  come  to  receive  rations.  As  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  had  an  opportunity  of  going  into  the  warehouse  and  seeing 
the  issue,  I  therefore  characterize  this  statement,  so  far  as  it  repre 
sents  it  as  being  the  usual  manner  in  which  pork  was  issued,  as,  to  say  the 
least,  negligently  incorrect.  The  pork  was  sweet  and  good,  but  was 
prime  mess-pork,  composed]  of  shoulders  and  sides  cut  up  and  put  in 
together.  As  the  Indians  use  pork  mainly  for  the  grease,  and  did  not 
understand  how  to  cook  this  kind  of  pork,[they  cut  off  the  fat  and  threw 
the  lean  away.  As  soon  as  I  ascertained  this  I  stopped  the  issue,  and 
reported  the  fact  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  Subsequently, 
when  the  Indians  learned  how  to  cook  the  pork,  they  sought  it  with 
avidity,  and  used  it  all  up.  In  regard  to  this,  I  refer  to  my  report  to  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  under  date  of  November  13  and  Decem 
ber  7,  1874.  In  these  reports,  it  will  be  seen  that  the  reasons  given  for 
the  pork  being  unlit  for  the  use  of  the  Indians  is  because  it  is  lean,  and 
not  because  the  pork  is  of  bad  quality. 

CHARGE  YI. — Flour  issued  at  the  agency. 

In  regard  to  this,  I  have  to  say  that  the  flour,  with  a  few  exceptions, 
was  put  up  in  double  sacks,  and  equal  to  the  sample  upon  which  the 
flour  was  purchased.  I  will  say  that  there  was  a  part  of  the  flour  in 
the  warehouse  without  the  inspector's  brand,  the  reasons  for  which  I 
give  in  the  correspondence  with  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and, 
in  explanation,  I  will  give  the  reasons  in  detail:  In  consequence  of  the 
appropriations  not  having  been  made  until  the  last  of  the  session  of 
Congress,  the  contracts  could  not  be  filled  or  commenced  until  about 
the  1st  of  August.  Being  out  of  flour  at  the  agency,  I  notified  the  con 
tractors  to  immediately  deliver  flour,  and  on  that  notice  flour  was  sent 
in  by  the  contractor  which  had  already  been  manufactured,  he  not  hav 
ing  time  to  make  the  flour  and  mark  it  as  required  ;  that  no  inspector 
was  appointed  to  inspect  it;  and  I  was  instructed  by  the  Commissioner 
to  keep  samples  of  the  flour  which  should  be  sent  to  the  agency  for  in 
spection,  and,  if  equal  to  the  sample  to  be  sent  from  New  York,  that  I 


384 

should  receipt  for  the  flour.  Under  this  press  of  circumstances  I  ordered 
the  flour  to  be  sent  to  the  agency,  although  it  did  not  comply  with  the 
particular  clause  relating  to  the  marks  on  the  sacks,  believing  that  the 
exigencies  of  the  case  justified  me  in  so  doing.  I  deny  that  any  consid- 
able  portion  of  the  flour  was  inferior  to  the  sample,  and  for  the  evidence 
of  which  I  refer  to  I.  W.  French,  W.  L.  Coakley,  inspector,  and  to 
others  at  the  agency  who  had  the  handling  and  issuing  of  the  flour.  I 
also  refer  to  I.  W.  French  as  evidence  that  Dr.  Irwin,  agent  for  the 
Shoshone  Indians,  said  that  the  flour  was  good  enough  tor  him  and  his 
Indians ;  and  I  further  state  that  I  was  not  at  Cheyenne  at  the  time  Dr. 
Irwin  was  there.  I  also  deny  that  I  told  Professor  Marsh,  at  any  time, 
that  any  of  the  flour  iupected  by  Barclay  White  was  "  very  poor,"  but 
I  stated  that  some  of  it  was,  in  my  opinion,  in  grade  below  that  of  the 
sample.  I  further  stated  that  the  flour  was  good  in  quality. 

In  explanation  of  the  fact  that  flour  was  shipped  to  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  without  inspection,  by  Mr.  Coakley,  I  will  state  that,  the  flour 
having  been  received  at  the  warehouse  with  the  brand  of  a  regular  in 
spector  upon  it,  the  store-keeper  inferred  that  that  inspection  was  suffi 
cient,  and  therefore  forwarded  a  portion  of  this  flour,  thus  inspected,  to 
the  agency;  that  subsequently  an  order  came  from  Assistant  Secretary 
Coweti,  that  this  flour  should  be  re-inspected  by  Mr.  Coakley,  and  all 
flour  shipped  to  the  agency  after  the  receipt  of  that  order  was  "inspected 
by  Mr.  Coakley.  Before  I  received  notice  of  the  order  for  the  flour  to 
be  re-inspected  the  greater  portion  of  the  flour  inspected  by  Barclay 
White,  and  which  had  not  been  inspected  by  Mr.  Coakley,  had  been 
issued  to  the  Indians.  Upon  an  examination  of  that  in  the  warehouse, 
I  found  the  proportion  of  that  which  I  considered  inferior  to  the  sample 
was  so  inconsiderable  that  I  did  not  deem  it  necessary  to  report  upon  it. 

CHARGE  VII.— Sugar  and  coffee. 

I  will  say  that  the  sugar  and  coffee  issued  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency 
was  a  fair  article  of  brown  sugar  and  Rio  coffee,  samples  of  which  I  will 
present  to  the  commission,  and  verify  them  by  the  evidence  of  the  em 
ploye's  at  the  agency,  and  others  about  the  agency. 

CHARGE  VIII.— Tobacco. 

I  will  say  that  I  know  nothing  about  the  quality  or  value  of  tobacco. 
There  are  now  in  the  warehouse  samples  of  every  lot  of  tobacco  that 
has  been  issued  since  I  took  charge  of  this  agency,  which  I  will  present 
to  the  commission,  that  they  may  form  their  own  conclusions. 

CHARGE  IX. — Suffering  of  the  Indians  during  the  past  winter. 

That  there  was  some  suffering  among  the  Indians  at  this  agency  last 
winter  is  not  denied.  The  winter  was  excessively  cold,  and  the  amount 
of  clothing  distributed  to  the  Indians  was  not  more  than  half  enough 
for  the  number  that  were  here  to  receive  it.  The  amount  of  supplies, 
with  the  exception  of  beef,  was  not  sufficient.  The  reasons  for  this 
short  supply  are  mainly  attributable  to  the  influence  of  such  meddlers 
as  those  who  bring  these  charges.  They  are  filling  the  newspapers  with 
such  assertions  as  that  contained  in  charge  2,  that  there  were  but  8,400 
people  at  the  agency,  when  by  actual  count  there  are  shown  to  have 
been  over  12,000  people  here.  This  constant  cry  of  over-estimate  of  the 
numbers,  and  fraud,  &c.,  has  had  the  effect  to  cause  Congress  to  reduce 


385 

the  appropriations  for  the  sustenance  of  the  Indians,  while  from  the 
destruction  of  game,  the  number  of  Indians  to  be  fed  and  clothed  is  in 
creasing  every  year.  Unless  Congress  supplies  the  deficiency,  the  same- 
thing  will  occur  next  winter  ;  for  the  amount  of  supplies  now  purchased 
will  not  be  sufficient  to  feed  the  number  of  Indians  which  are  now  and 
will  be  at  the  agency  during  the  winter  longer  than  until  the  last  of 
February.  Another  serious  evil  arising  from  this  is  the  plan  of  these 
persons  to  teach  the  Indians  that  the  want  of  supplies  is  due  to  the  dis 
honesty  of  the  agent,  causing  them  to  become  discontented,  and  destroy 
the  influence  of  the  agent,  however  honestly  exerted,  and  thereby  defeat 
the  purposes  of  the  policy  of  teaching  the  Indians  to  become  self-sup 
porting. 

I  have  confined  my  answer  to  such  portions  of  these  charges  as  are 
direct  and  specific.  The  greater  portion  of  them  being  assumptions  and 
inferences,  which  were  evidently  intended  for  publication  to  influence 
public  opinion,  and  I  do  not  deem  it  necessary  to  reply  to  them  in  this 
connection. 

I  herewith  submit  my  official  reports  and  letters  bearing  upon  the 
various  subjects  referred  to,  and  the  evidence  of  disinterested  persons 
who  are  most  familiar  with  the  facts. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Cloud  Agency. 

The  Hon.  BOARD  OF  COMMISSIONERS 

To  Investigate  Affairs  at  Red  Cloud  Agency. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Thursday.  August  12,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  J.  J.  SAYILLE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Doctor,  I  find  that  in  these  charges  of  Professor  Marsh  it 
is  stated  that  you  reported  as  having  issued  beef  on  the  8th  of  Novem 
ber,  when  in  fact  it  was  not  issued  until  the  14th  of  November.  You 
explain  that  in  your  statement  by  saying  that  the  return  was  made 
upon  a  blank  furnished  for  that  purpose  and  the  error  occurred  in  put 
ting  down  the  issue  opposite  the  wrong  date.  Now,  did  you  have  any 
beef  on  hand  upon  the  8th  November  ? 

Answer.  None  here  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  not  have  on  hand  then  some  8  beef-cattle? 

A.  There  were  8  beef-cattle  on  the  range.  You  will  see  that  my  book 
shows  that  there  were  on  hand  on  the  1st  October  278  cattle.  'These 
were  cattle  which,  as  I  have  said  in  my  report  to  the  Department,  had 
left  the  agency  herd  and  returned  to  the  contractor's  herds,  and  they 
were  carried  forward  on  the  papers  as  on  hand.  The  men  were  out 
searching  for  them,  and  I  carried  them  forward  as  on  hand.  On  the 
2d  November,  I  made  the  last  issue  before  we  counted  the  Indians. 
Mr.  Bosler  had  brought  here  150  of  those  cattle  which  had  escaped.  I 
issued  to  the  Indians  about  137  of  those.  There  were  13  head  of  those 
25  i  F 


386 

cattle  which  I  rejected.  I  had  not  .vet  receipted  for  the  second  delivery 
of  cattle  to  the  agency  in  November.  Mr.  Bosler  was  not  here,  and  it 
\vas  not  delivered  until  the  middle  of  November.  At  that  time  there 
were  here  the  13  head  which  I  told  him  I  should  reject,  and  among 
them  were  four  of  those  on  the  range.  Two  of  them  were  yearlings, 
which  I  had  not  counted  at  all  before.  These  four  and  some  others  that 
had  gone  over  I  rejected,  and  left  the  matter  there  until  Mr.  Bosler 
should  come  and  settle  it,  so  that  I  still  had  some  on  hand,  but  they 
were  not  here.  Mr.  Bosler  returned  the  150  in  November. 

Q.  You  made  an  issue  of  beef  about  the  2d  November? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  issued  at  that  time  all  the  beef  you  had  on  hand  except 
some  13  head  of  cattle  which  you  had  rejected? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  when  did  you  receive  any  other  beef? 

A.  The  next  I  received  was  on  the  14th  November. 

Q.  So  that  between  the  2d  and  the  14th  November  the  only  cattle  oir 
hand  were  those  rejected  cattle? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  about  the  2d  November  that  you  began  to  make  your 
efforts  to  enumeraLe  the  Indians. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  got  that  enumeration  completed  about  the  14th  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  •  I  think  on  the  12th. 

Q.  Your  regular  issue-day  would  have  been  on  the  8th  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  Now,  as  you  failed  to  issue  on  that  day,  you  issued  on  the  15th. 
Did  you  then  make  the  issue  for  seven  or  for  fourteen  days? 

A.  I  made  the  issue  of  beef  to  cover  the  whole  time,  but  all  other 
rations  I  did  not.  By  special  agreement  with  the  Indians,  that  they 
would  quietly  submit  to  be  counted  and  get  their  tickets,  I  made  the 
issue  of  beef  to  cover  the  whole  time. 

Q.  But  the  other  rations  you  did  not  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  From  that  there  was  one  issue  of  rations,  which  the  Indians  lost 
by  refusing  to  be  counted  ? 

A.  Y~es,  sir. 

Q.  Who  made  this  enumeration  for  you  ? 

A.  Part  I  did  myself,  and  part  was  done  by  employes.  We  had  three 
or  four  different  persons  counting  the  camps. 

Q.  Now,  in  regard  to  the  Northern  Indians  which  were  here  at  the 
time  of  the  issue  of  annuity  goods ;  what  means  did  you  have  of 
knowing  what  their  numbers  were  ? 

A.  I  had  none,  only  the  statement  of  the  Indians  themselves  ;  and 
so  far  as  they  were  concerned  they  were  not  taken  into  account  in  the 
issue  of  annuity  goods. 

Q.  You  issued  no  annuity  goods  to  the  Northern  Indians  ? 

A.  No  ;  none  except  to  such  as  came  in  and  wrere  counted.  Some  did 
come  in  and  were  counted. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  consider  yourself  bound  to  furnish  these  Northern  In 
dians,  if  they  came  in,  with  supplies  as  well  as  the  others  ? 

A.  Only  under  instructions  from  the  Department.  I  had  instructions 
from  the  Department  to  issue  rations  to  all  the  Indians  that  would 
come  in  to  be  enumerated. 


387 

Q.  And  annuity  goods,  too  ! 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  in  regard  to  the  number  of  these  Northern  Indians,  who  were 
temporarily  here  last  November  or  December,  did  the  information  which 
you  had  as  to  their  number  come  from  them  or  from  the  Indians  re 
siding  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  From  the  Indians  living  about  here.  The  statement  was  made  to 
me  by  Sitting  Bull,  Face,  and  Sword,  and  a  number  of  others. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  that  a  large  part  of  these  Northern  In 
dians  have  never  been  to  this  agency  at  all  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  from  that  statement  of  the  Indians.  I  can  only  get  it  from 
their  statement.  From  all  the  different  stories  that  have  been  told  I 
have  come  to  the  conclusion  that  there  is  a  considerable  number  who 
have  never  been  to  the  agency  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  at  any  time  been  informed  of  any  impropriety  of  con 
duct  on  the  part  of  your  clerks  and  employes  about  the  agency  toward 
the  Indians  here  during  last  winter  and  fall? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  taken  any  means  to  correct  those  improprieties  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  kno\>  u  of  any  of  your  employes  being  drunk  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  you  discharge  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  as  a  general  thing.  Once  in  a  while  a  man  whom  we 
cannot  get  along  without  will  get  drunk,  and  still  I  have  to  keep  him. 
One  of  the  difficulties  of  getting  along  here  is  that  men  will  get  on  a 
spree  now  and  then,  and  we  cannot  discharge  them  because  we  cannot 
get  others  to  fill  their  places. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  any  of  your  employes  to  be  drunk  while 
they  were  engaged  in  issuing  goods  or  rations  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  informed  of  such  being  the  fact  ? 

A.  Never,  until  I  saw  it  stated  in  the  papers. 

Q.  Did  Professor  Marsh  ever  state  to  you  that  any  of  your  employes 
were  drunk  while  they  were  issuing  goods  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  he  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  of  your  employes,  while  they  were  issuing 
goods  or  rations,  endeavoring  to  entice  squaws  into  the  warehouse  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  one  ever  complain  to  you  about  it"? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  lied  Cloud  made  a  complaint  of  the  matter.  He  com 
plained  to  me  that  the  store-keeper,.  Mr.  McBratuey,  was  stealing.  I 
investigated  the  matter  immediately,  and  found  that  he  had  given  some 
sugar  to  a  squaw.  I  do  not  know  that  it  was  for  the  purpose  of  entic 
ing  her.  The  only  reason  he  gave  was  simply  that  some  of  their  friends 
had  come  to  live  on  the  old  women,  and  it  was  not  unusual  for  rue  to  give 
them  an  extra  amount  of  coffee  and  sugar  to  meet  the  expenditure 
necessary  to  feed  the  people  visiting  them.  It  was  not  an  unusual 
thing,  except  that  it  was  in  the  evening  instead  of  during  the  day.  I 
then  issued  an  order  that  no  one  should  go  into  the  warehouse  after 
dark  unless  I  was  present. 

Q.  Have  you  enforced  that  order  strictly  since  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.    I  have  not  known  it  to  be  violated. 

Q.  Now,  Doctor,  in  regard  to  the  system  of  issuing  rations  and  annu- 


388 

ily  goods,  please  explain  how  that  is  done.     For  instance,  in  the  issue 
of  annuity  goods,  how  do  yon  deliver  them  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  First,  the  Indians  makeup  the  number  of  parties  which  shall  re 
ceive  the  goods.  I  take  down  from  their  tickets  a  list  of  all  the  fami 
lies  which  will  draw  goods,  with  the  name  of  each  headman.  They 
generally  have  a  headman  in  whose  name  the  goods  are  drawn  and  to 
whom  I  deliver  them. 

Q.  Is  it  at  all  practicable  to  deliver  to  each  Indian  his  goods? 

A.  It  is  not.  In  the  present  condition  of  affairs  among  these  Indians 
it  is  utterly  impossible. 

Q.  Now,  as  to  the  issuing  of  rations,  how  is  that  done  ? 

A.  It  is  done  in  the  same  way.  A  list  of  the  Indians  is  taken — the 
families  and  number  in  each  family.  I  give  them  a  ticket  which  ex 
presses  on  its  face  the  number  of  people  who  draw  upon  it.  In  some 
cases  several  families  are  joined  on  the  one  ticket.  They  come  in  and 
present  the  ticket  and  receive  their  rations. 

Q.  Then  the  headman  of  that  party  retains  that  ticket! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  presents  the  ticket  ? 

A.  No  ;  the  squaws  generally  come  in  with  the  ticket,  and  the  amount 
which  that  ticket  calls  for  is  dealt  out  to  them.  They  then  take  it  out 
side  and  generally  divide  it  among  themselves  in  front  of  the  warehouse. 
Sometimes  they  carry  it  to  the  camp,  but  generally  it  is  divided  in  front 
of  the  warehouse. 

Q.  In  the  issue  of  pork  last  November  Professor  Marsh  states  that  "the 
barrels  of  pork  were  rolled  out  of  the  warehouse  by  one  of  the  agency 
employes,  the  heads  of  the  barrels  knocked  in  with  an  ax,  and  the  con 
tents  turned  upon  the  ground.  The  pieces  of  pork  were  then  given  to 
the  Indians,  who  were  waiting  around,  without  being  weighed  or  any 
other  means  adopted  to  insure  a  just  distribution."  Now,  how  was 
that  9 

A.  There  was  one  barrel,  and  I  think  no  more,  rolled  out  to  Little 
Wound's  party,  which  w^as  large  enough  to  receive  200  pounds  of  pork. 
The  barrel  was  rolled  out,  and  the  Indians  cut  the  barrel  open,  and 
divided  the  pork  among  themselves.  All  the  rest  of  it  was  issued  regu 
larly  through  the  store-room. 

Q.  Now,  Doctor,  how  were  the  Indians  camped  around  here  with  ref 
erence  to  the  situation  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  They  were  camped  in  several  camps  on  White  River,  extending 
down  about  20  miles  from  here.  A  portion  of  them  were  camped  over 
near  Crow  Butte,  about  7  miles  in  another  direction.  Another  large 
camp  was  about  7  miles  up  Little  White  Clay  Creek,  toward  the  south. 
Another  camp  was  up  above  on  WhiteRiver,  I  do  not  know  how  far  ;  and 
then  there  were  a  great  many  little  camps  around  in  different  places — 
scattered  all  around — some  distance  from  here.  That  was  before  we 
commenced  to  count  them.  At  the  time  of  counting,  they  had  moved 
in  nearer  the  agency,  but  were  still  some  7  or  8  miles  distant.  I  wished 
them  all  to  move  toward  the  agency,  but  they  said  they  could  not  keep 
their  horses  if  they  were  camped  close  together;  and  they  had  to  be 
scattered  in  different  camps. 

Q.  Do  the  Indians  frequently  remove  their  lodges  and  change  their 
camps  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  the  number  of  Indians  drawing  supplies  from 
this  agency  is  increasing  by  the  coining  in  of  the  Northern  Indians  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir:  that  is  the  i'act. 


389 

Q.  Professor  Marsh  states  that  he  was  present  on  the  morning  of  the 
14th  November ;  that  while  he  was  here,  a  lot  of  several  hundred  head 
of  Texas  cattle  were  brought  here  and  accepted  by  you,  and  receipted 
for,  but  that  you  only  weighed  a  portion  of  the  herd.  What  do  you  say 
to  that  ? 

A.  I  weighed  all  of  it.  I  believed  every  last  one  of  those  was  weighed  ; 
yet  there  may  have  been  a  possibility  of  one  or  two  getting  through, 
as  you  saw  them  get  through  yesterday.  • 

Q.  How  did  those  cattle  you  received  at  that  time  compare  with  the 
cattle  we  saw  yesterday  ? 

A.  They  were  a  very  similar  lot  of  cattle. 

Q.  Were  they  as  large  as  the  cattle  we  saw  yesterday  ? 

A.  Not  quite,  I  think. 

Q.  Were  there  not  among  them  some  yearlings  and  scrubby  cattle — 
what  are  known  as  "  scalawags  ?" 

A.  Yes;  two  or  three,  or  four  or  five.  I  took  no  note  of  them.  There 
were  several,  though. 

Q.  Were  they  weighed  and  counted? 

A.  No,  sir.     My  memory  does  not  serve  me   as  to  the  number,  but 
these  yearlings  and  calves  that  went  through  the  scales  were  deducted 
from  the  weight. 
•Q.  How  is  it  possible  to  deduct  them  from  the  weight  ? 

A.  By  estimating  their  weight. 

Q.  Do  you  estimate  their  weight  separately,  and  deduct  it  from  the 
aggregate  weight  of  the  whole  lot  which  has  been  weighed,  or  do  you 
estimate  their  weight  at  the  average  weight  of  the  other  cattle? 

A.  I  generally  make  an  estimate  of  the  weight  and  deduct  it  from  the 
whole  amount. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  account  or  entry  in  writing  that  would  show  the  fact 
of  such  deduction  i 

A.  I  have  not.  I  am  usually  in  the  habit  of  taking  no  note  of  them 
at  the  time.  The  Indians  usually  take  them  out  of  the  herd  and  I  take 
no  account  of  them. 

Q.  Were  these  cattle  thin  and  poor  at  that  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  usual  for  cattle  at  that  season  of  the  year  to  be  poor? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  is  just  the  time  of  year  that  they  are  in  the  best  con 
dition,  that  they  are  heaviest. 

Q.  Now.  Doctor,  I  want  to  inquire  of  you  about  some  other  matters. 
You  were  sometimes  out  of  supplies  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whose  fault  was  that? 

A.  The  fault  was  in  the  fact  that  we  did  not  have 'supplies  enough 
furnished  j  that  the  amount  of  supplies  purchased  for  the  Indians  was 
used  up  in  the  fore  part  of  the  year.  There  were  so  many  more  Indians 
here  then  than  were  estimated  for,  that  the  supplies  were  used  up  be 
fore  the  latter  part  of  the  winter,  and  we  got  out  of  supplies  because 
they  were  inadequate. 

Q.  Were  you  out  of  supplies  at  any  time  on  account  of  the  failure  of 
the  contractor  to  move  them  here  ? 

A.  In  February,  during  that  cold  spell,  there  were  two  trains  which 
were  loaded,  and  which  got  part  of  the  way  through  when  their  cattle 
stampeded  in  a  storm,  and  the  train  laid  there  perhaps  a  month.  Those 
wagons  were  loaded  with  corn. 


390 

Q.  Do  you  know  when  that  com  had  been  contracted  for  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  just  now,  without  referring  to  the  books,  whether  it 
was  the  first  contract  or  the  contract  for  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  that  corn  had  been  at  Cheyenne? 

A.  No,  sir $  not  without  referring  to  the  books. 

Q.  Are  the  supplies  often  delayed  at  Cheyenne  for  the  want  of  trans 
portation  hither  I 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  there  are  over  twenty  car-loads  of  your  freight 
lying  there  now,  and  have  been  there  for  over  a  month  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  as  a  matter  of  fact  now  it  is,  but  it  has  not  been  so  often, 
not  on  account  of  want  of  transportation  to  these  places,  but  on  account 
of  the  charges  on  the  freight  in  the  cars. 

Q.  What  is  meant  by  the  want  of  transportation  is  the  failure  to  have 
them  transported  ?  I  refer  to  the  fact  whether  or  not  you  were  in  want 
of  supplies  here  because  the  contractor  had  failed  to  do  his  duty  in  get 
ting  them  to  you  in  proper  t  me. 

A.  In  this  case  it  is  so.  A  year  ago  I  complained  to  the  Department 
of  Mr.  McOaun  for  his  failure  to  get  supplies  here  fast  enough,  but  on 
examination  of  his  contract  I  found  that  he  was  only  required  to  de 
liver  a  certain  amount  within  certain  periods  of  time,  and  so  far  he  ful-. 
filled  his  contract  and  the  goods  were  transported  immediately. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  his  contract  for  transporting  supplies  here 
now  specifies  that  he  shall  transport  within  certain  periods  ? 

A.  It  does  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  reason  why  the  annuity-goods  did  not  arrive  here 
until  November? 

A.  I  know  only  from  general  information.  I  will  say  that  the  appro 
priations  were  made  so  late  in  the  season  that  the  contracts  could  not 
be  let  until  August,  but  why  they  were  delayed  on  their  arrival  at  Chey 
enne  until  the  20th  September' I  do  not  know.  The  first  goods  ar 
rived  at  Cheyenne  on  the  20th  September,  and  they  reached  here  in  Octo 
ber.  The  reason  why  they  were  not  delivered  till  October  was  in  accord 
ance  with  a  request  I  made  to  the  Commissioner  to  withhold  them  until 
the  Indians  were  counted,  in  order  to  give  the  correct  number. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  complaint  to  the  Department  of  the  failure  to 
have  the  contracts  filled  earlier? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  received  a  letter  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  asking  me  what  time  would  be  the  best  to  deliver  annuity  goods 
to  the  Indians,  and  I  answered  between  the  1st  and  loth  of  September 
was  the  best  time  to  deliver  them  to  the  Indians. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Doctor,  have  you  ever  been  from  here  to  Sidney? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  the  fact  that  the  traders  are  getting  their  goods  b  |  e 
way  of  Sidney  ?  v  h 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  pretty  well  understood  here  that  that  is  a  shorter  and  bet 
ter  road  than  the  road  to  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  It  is  a  shorter,  but  I  do  not  understand  that  it  is  a  better,  road. 

Q.  Well,  could  not  your  Indian  supplies  be  transported  from  Sidney 
here  cheaper  than  from  Cheyenne  here? 

A.  I  do  not  know. 


391 

Q.  You  never  investigated  that  subject  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  find  by  your  books  that  your  had  on  hand  November  1,  1874,  395 
head  of  cattle ;  that  on  the  second  day  of  that  month  you  issued  385 
head  ;  that  on  the  7th  you  butchered  two  head,  making  a  total  of  387 
head  issued,  and  leaving  eight  head  of  cattle  on  hand.  Is  that  cor 
rect  as  you  understand  it  ?  Is  that  according  to  your  recollection  ? 

A.  I  think  there  should  be  thirteen. 

Q.  Your  book  does  not  show  any  issue  of  cattle  on  the  8th  ? 

A.  No. 

Q.  Will  you  now  explain  how  you  made  a  return  of  the  issue  of  387 
head  of  cattle  as  of  the  8th  of  November,  when  no  such  issue  took  place 
on  that  day  f 

A.  The  amount  opposite  the  8th  includes  all  the  cattle  issued  from 
the  1st  to  the  8th.  My  book  shows  that  on  the  second  day  of  Novem 
ber  I  issued  377  head  in  one  lot,  and  on  the  same  day  to  different  per 
sons  eight  head  ;  that  on  the  7th  day  I  butchered  two  cattle.  I  had  on 
hand  after  that  only  thirteen  head  of  cattle. 

Q.  Now,  I  want  to  go  back  to  the  stampede.  Your  book  shows  that  on 
the  1st  October,  1874,  you  should  have  had  on  hand  278  head  of  cattle. 
Will  you  now  state  whether  or  not  before  that  time  the  stampede  had 
taken  place J? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  it  had. 

Q.  Had  you  on  hand  any  of  these  278  head? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  at  that  time. 

Q.  This  represents,  as  you  understand  it,  the  whole  number  of  the 
stampeded  cattle  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  did  Mr.  Bosler  return  to  you  on  account  of  that 
stampede? 

A.  On  the  settlement  with  him,  in  the  middle  of  November,  he  returned 
150  head. 

Q.  Of  what  weight  were  those  150  head  ? 

A.  I  took  them,  calling  them  the  same  average  weight  as  those  of 
September  7,  the  last  received,  the  average  being  1,038  pounds  each. 

Q.  I  see  that  you  have  entered  in  your  book  as  lost  128  head,  which 
makes  the  278  head  of  cattle  which  were  stampeded ;  so  that  there  was 
a  loss  to  the  Government  of  128  head  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  What  pains  did  you  take  to  recover  those  128  head  ? 

A.  I  had  been  traveling  all  over  the  country. 

Q.  Did  you  become  satisfied  in  what  direction  those  cattle  went  ? 

A.  They  went  south  of  here,  and  off  on  Snake  River.  I  could  not 
tell  positively  where  they  went.  The  presumption  is  that  the  Indians 
got  them  and  killed  them. 

Q.  I  find,  on  looking  at  your  book,  after  the  receipt  of  cattle  on  the 
7th  September,  you  should  have  had  on  hand  1,003  head  at  the  agency. 
Now,  at  any  time  before  or  since  have  you  had  in  your  custody  so  large 
a  number  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not.  The  reason  for  receiving  so  many  at  that 
time  was,  that  Mr.  Bosler,  the  contractor,  had  that  number  on  hand, 
and  he  had  to  go  south  of  the  Platte  for  more  cattle,  and  if  I  had  not 
received  them  at  that  time  I  should  have  been  out  of  beef  before  he 
could  get  back. 


on  4 


92 

Q.  Now,  on  the  llth  November  I  see  you  issued  347  head  of  cattle. 
Where  did  those  cattle  come  from  ? 

A.  I  see  the  book  represents  it  as  of  the  llth.  when,  in  fact,  it  should 
be  of  the  14th. 

Q.  Now,  your  book  shows  that  on  the  14th  you  received  701  head  of 
cattle,  for  which  the  average  was  1,043  pounds  each.  Professor  Marsh 
says  in  his  statement,  "  This  lot  was  accepted  by  the  agent  and  receipt 
ed  for,  but  he  only  weighed  a  portion  of  the  herd.  These  cattle  I  saw 
and  carefully  examined.'7  Who  weighed  these  cattle  ? 

A.  I  weighed  those  myself. 

Q,  How  many  did  you  weigh  ? 

A.  I  believe  I  weighed  every  one  of  them—the  whole  701  head.     I 
cannot  say  positively  that  I  weighed  every  one  of   them,   for  there 
might  have  been  one  or  two  that  went  through  without  being  weighed 
as  they  did  yesterday  ;  but  I  think  I  weighed  them  all. 

Q.  Was  Professor  Marsh  present  at  the  time  of  their  weiohin<>-? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  at  the  time  with  him  here  in  re 
gard  to  the  weight  of  these  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  his  carefully  examining  these  cattle  ? 

A.  I  asked  him  to  come  down  with  me  and  see  them  issued  in  the 
afternoon,  after  they  had  been  weighed. 

Q.  What  conversation,  if  an 3-,  did  you  have  with  him  as  to  their 
weight  or  condition  ? 

A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  or  to  any  other  person  concerning1 
them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  complaint  made  to  you  by  any  person  in  jecrard  to 
them  •? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  now  say  that  the  cattle  weighed  the  full  amount  for  which 
you  gave  Mr.  Bosler  credit  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  those  cattle  as  compared  with  the  cattle 
that  were  issued  yesterday  in  our  presence  ? 

A.  I  think  they  were  very  similar  cattle.    They  were  in  good  condition. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  were  any  of  them  sick,  or  lame,  or  overdriven  ? 

A.  They  had  been  driven  very  hard,  all  of  them,  and  were  tired. 
Whether  any  of  them  got  down,  as  some  did  yesterday,  I  am  not  able 
to  say. 

Q.  Were  some  of  them  so  tired  that,  it  would  be  difficult  to  drive  or 
goad  them  out  of  a  walk  ? 

A.  1  do  not  remember  any  such  thing  having  occurred.  I  did  not  see 
any  cattle  so  tired  or  weak,  or  in  so  miserable  a  condition,  that  the 
Indians  could  not  goad  them  out  of  a  walk. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Major  Btirt  there  that  afternoon  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  with  Professor  Marsh,  so  far  as  you  remember,  when  the 
issue  was  made  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember. 

Q.  Did  you,  at  or  about  that  time,  have  any  conversation  with  him  in 
reference  to  those  cattle  ? 


393 

A.  He  was  here  at  tlie  agency,  but  I  did  not  have  any  such  conversa 
tion  with  him. 

Q.  It  is  said  that  a  large  number  of  the  cattle  were  of  the  kind  known 
among  cattle-men  as  "scalawags,"  and  not  a  few  were  weak  and  decrepit. 
What  is  a  "  scalawag  '?  " 

A.  A  "scalawag7'  is  a  small,  stunted  animal,  which  does  not  get  fat, 
probably  from  some  disease. 

Q.  .Do  you  remember  of  seeing  such  cattle  here  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Have  you  received  such  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Let  me  correct  that.  I  think  one  of  those  I  rejected  from 
the  lot  received  on  that  day  was  a  two-year-old  "scalawag." 

Q.  Does  it  sometimes  happen  that  cattle  which  have  been  overdriven 
are  weak,  and  go  down  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  sometimes  so  weak  that  it  is  hard  to  get  them  into  a  run? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Cattle  which  are  run  a  great  deal,  and  get  very  tired, 
become  stubborn,  and  you  cannot  whip  them  into  a  run.  I  did  not  see 
such  an  occurrence  on  that  day. 

Q.  On  the  25th  page  of  Professor  Marsh's  statement  he  says  :  "Agent 
Saville  then  stated  that  the  poor  condition  of  these  cattle  was  owing  to 
hard  driving  some  forty-eight  hours  with  little  grass  or  sleep,  to 
hurry  them  through,  as  the  Indians  had  had  no  beef  for  some  time, 
he  having  kept  back  rations  to  induce  them  to  be  counted.  These  cattle 
arrived  in  the  morning,  and  he  weighed  most  of  them  the  same  forenoon. 
Some  few  that  were  wild  he  did  not  weigh,  but  estimated.  The  issue  was 
made  on  the  same  afternoon  of  the  receipt.  Among  the  cattle  then 
weighed  were  forty  or  more  small  and  'scalawag'  cattle.  Agent 
Saville  was  confident  that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh 
850  pounds  on  an  average."  Did  you  make  that  statement,  in  substance, 
on  the  1st  of  June,  1875  ? 

A.  We  were  having  a  conversation — Bishop  Hare,  Professor  Marsh, 
and  myself.  Professor  Marsh  said  to  Bishop  Hare  that  Mr.  Bosler 
apologized  to  him  for  the  poor  condition  of  the  cattle.  I  spoke  to  him 
explaining  merely  what  Mr.  Bosler  probably  meant  to  say,  intending  to 
impress  upon  him  the  idea  that  Mr.  Bosler  was  not  apologizing  for  the 
cattle  being  poor,  but  that  they  looked  bad  and  gaunt  for  want  of 
water,  the  hair  rough,  &c.  I  made  no  apology  to  him  for  the  cattle. 

Q.  Did  you.  in  substance,  make  that  statement;  or  what  statement 
did  you  make? 

A.  I  cannot  give  the  exact  words.  The  substance  of  it  was  as  I  have 
just  stated. 

Q.  Did  you  say  the  cattle  were  in  poor  condition? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  say  they  looked  badly  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that,  hard  driving  had  produced  any  effect  upon  the 
cattle  ? 

A.  Not,  except  by  inference  in  that  way,  in  the  explanation  I  gave  of 
what  Mr.  Bosler  intended  to  say. 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  they  had  to  be  driven  forty-eight  hours  with  lit 
tle  grass  or  water,  in  order  to  get  them  to  the  agency  in  time  ? 

A.  I  did  say  that  they  had  been  driven  hard  to  bring  them  to  the 
agency,  but  I  did  not  state  the  time? 

Q.  Did  you  say  that  some  few  were  wild,  and  you  could  not  weigh 
them  ? 


394 

A.  That  was  a  general  explanation,  applicable  to  all  cattle  received, 
bnt  not  intended  for  this  particular  lot. 

Q.  In  the  same  connection,  Professor  Marsh  says  that  "Agent  Saville 
was  confident  that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh  850 
pounds  on  an  average,77  Did  yon  make  that  statement  to  him  ? 

A.  I  shall  have  to  explain  that  in  the  same  way,  by  recalling  what 
was  said.  Bishop  Hare  asked  me  if  these  cattle  would  weigh,  every 
one,  1,000  pounds,  and  I  said,  "No,  they  would  not,"  and  then  remarked 
that  the  contract  did  not  require  them  to  be  1.000  pounds  in  weight; 
and  he  asked  me  how  much  it  was,  and  I  told  him  850  pounds ;  and  he 
turned  to  me  and  said,  "Did  these  cattle  average  850  pounds?"  asking 
a  general  explanation — if  they  came  up  to  the  contract,  I  answered 
him  in  three  words:  "  Yes,  and  inorcV  Those,  I  think,  were  the  exact 
words  I  used. 

Q.  Did  you  at  any  time  claim,  in  that  conversation  or  any  other,  that 
they  weighed  850  pounds  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  not  fixing  the  amount;  only  that  they  filled  the  contract. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Louis  Eeshaw  was  present  and  saw  the 
issue  on  the  14th  November  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  whether  he  was  at  the  corral  or  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Lieutenant  Carpenter  and  Eeshaw  being  present 
at  the  issue  on  the  loth  May,  1875  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  was  on  the  way  to  Washington. 

Q.  The  Professor  says :  "Another  fruitful  source  of  fraud  in  cattle  at 
the  Eed  Cloud  agency  is  the  system  of  stampeding,  which  appears  to 
have  been  practiced  there,  at  least,  since  the  present  agent  took 
charge,"  I  want  to  ask  you  how  many  stampedes  have  taken  place 
since  you  have  been  agent  here. 

A.  Soon  after  I  arrived  here,  in  1873,  there  was  a  stampede  of  cattle 
on  the  hills  south  of  here. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  were  stampeded  ? 

A.  About  GOO. 

Q.  How  did  that  stampede  occur? 

A.  It  occurred  by  the  Indians  rushing  into  the  herd  to  catch  a  calf. 
It  was  a  stormy  night.     It  was  just  in  the  evening,  and  the  cattle   got 
scared  and  went  off  ever  the  hill.     That  was  the  statement  given   me 
by  the  chief  herder. 
1Q.  Did  any  of  these  cattle  get  back  into  the  herd  of  Mr.  Bosler  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  a  great  many  of  them. 

Q.  Did  a  good  many  get  into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many,  according  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  positively  now.     I  think  over  300. 

Q.  Have  you  got  any  memorandum  by  which  you  can  state  the  num 
ber  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  will  get  it  after  a  while. 

Q.  How  many  did  you  recover? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you  without  looking  at  the  books. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  were  lost  to  the  Government — about  how  many  '? 

A.  About  200,  1  think. 

Q.  What  season  of  the  year  was  it  ? 

A.  It  was  in  the  fall. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Bosler  return  any  cattle  from  that  stampede1? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  means  of  showing  the  commissioners  exactly  how 


395 

many  were  stampeded,  bow  many  Mr.  Bosler  returned,  bow  many  you 
recovered,  and  bow  many  were  lost  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  do  tbat  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  tbe  cattle  wbicb  got  back  into  Mr.  Bosler's  berd  were 
you  able  to  identify  ? 

A.  Tbe  first  that  went  into  tbe  berd  were  traced  in  by  the  herders, 
and  they  judged  of  them  by  their  being  travel-worn  while  the  others 
were  in  the  herd. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  cattle  were  stampeded  did  you  discover  it  ? 

A.  Discovered  it  right  away,  but  it  was  a  stormy  night,  and  the  men 
could  not  follow  them  until  the  next  morning. 

Q.  How  far  from  here  was  Bosler's  herd  at  the  time  of  that  stam 
pede  ? 

A.  I  am  not  right  positive  whether  be  had  his  berd  on  the  Running 
Water  or  not.  If  it  was  on  the  Eunning  Water,  it  was  about  thirty 
miles. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  negotiations  with  Bosler  for  tbe  return  of  those 
cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  other  stampede  has  ever  occurred  here? 

A.  Only  the  one  I  have  already  testified  to. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  other  stampedes  by  which  you  have  lost  cat 
tle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Professor  Marsh,  in  his  statement,  says  it  is  a  system  which  has 
been  practiced  here. 

A.  I  do  not  know  whether  that  can  be  called  a  system  or  not — two 
instances. 

Q.  Can  you  guard  against  them  in  any  way  ?  If  you  can,  state  how. 

A.  No,  sir  ;  it  is  something  you  cannot  foresee  or  guard  against.  Mr. 
Bosler's  berd  sometimes  take  a  run. 

Q.  How  many  herders  bad  you  in  charge  of  those  GOO  head  of  cattle? 

A.  Three. 

Q.  Did  you  make  these  herders  follow  the  cattle? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  days  were  they  out  after  them  ? 

A.  About  two  weeks. 

Q,  Referring'  to  the  statement  of  Louis  Reshaw  as  to  the  number  of 
cattle  tbat  were  stampeded,  I  ask  you  whether,  when  the  150  cattle  were 
returned  by  Mr.  Bosler,  any  receipt  was  given  him  for  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  W^as  there  any  voucher  given  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  received  from  you  any  paper  which  would  enable  him  to 
recover  pay  for  those  150  head  of  cattle  a  second  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  statement  of  Mr.  Reshaw  where 
he  says  the  contractor's  herder  goffered  to  sell  to  him  some  of  these 
cattle  at  $10  a  head? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  never  heard  that  statement  before. 

Q.  Did  Reshaw  ever  say  anything  to  you  about  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ? 

Q.  Who  was  the  contractor's  responsible  herder  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.     He  had  a  number  of  herders. 


396 

Q.  Was  it  George  Bosler,  his  brother  ? 

A.  Well,  perhaps  he  would  be  the  responsible  man, 
Q.  The  next  statement  of  Professor  Marsh  is,  "  From  such  stampedes 
and  the  fraudulent  results  following,  both  the  Indians  and  the  Govern 
ment  have  suffered  great  losses."  Do  you  know  whether  any  loss  has 
been  suffered  by  the  Government  beyond  the  loss  of  the  cattle.  128  at 
one  time  and  the  number  lost  at  the  first  stampede  of  1873  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  no  loss  at  all,  and  I  do  not  think  the  Indians  suffered  any 
loss  at  all. 

Q.  How  many  persons  did  you  employ  in  taking  the  census  of  the 
Indians ! 

A.  Six. 

Q.  Did  they  make  reports  in  writing  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  take  the  census  ? 

A.  We  went  to  the  camps  with  an  interpreter,  entered  a  lodge,  took 
down  in  pencil  the  name  of  the  head-man  of  the  lodge,  and  the  number 
of  women  and  children  in  the  lodge,  and  then  took  out  a  ticket  and 
wrote  his  name  on  it,  and  the  number  of  people  in  the  lodge,  and  these 
pencil  memoranda  were  then  brought  and  copied  in  a  list,  and  when  the 
Indians  brought  in  the  tickets  that  were  given  them  we  issued  them 
their  rations. 

Q.  Did  you  go  over  the  whole  country  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Within  how  many  miles  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  Within  seven  or  eight  miles  was  the  farthest  we  went,  because  I 
required  them  to  move  in  near  the  agency. 

Q.  And  while  that  enumeration  was  in  progress  you  were  not  issuing 
provisions  or  beef? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  days  did  that  occupy  ? 

A.  Three  days. 

Q.  The  result  of  that  census  showed  so  many  people  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  Sioux  it  showed  0,339. 

Q.  And  of  the  Arapahoes  and  Cheyeunes  ? 

A.  The  Arapahoes  and  Oheyenues  were  not  counted  at  that  time. 
We  had  no  annuity-goods  for  them  ;  and  I  had  counted  them  previously  ; 
but  some  time  after  that  I  counted  them  again. 

Q.  Did  you  not  issue  annuity-goods  to  them  last  year  ? 

A.  Not  until  spring. 

Q.  Did  you  count  any  other  than  the  Sioux  at  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  turn  to  your  record  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  bales  of  blankets  did  you  receive  last  year  for  distri 
bution  among  the  Indians  1 

A.  For  the  Sioux,  37  bales. 

Q.  How  many  blankets  to  a  bale  ? 

A.  Fifty  pairs  to  each  bale. 

Q,  Then  you  received  that  aggregate  number  of  blankets? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  were  they  issued  ? 

A.  They  were  issued  I  believe  on  the  12th  November. 

Q.  Was  Professor  Marsh  present  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  I  think  he  was. 

Q.  Did  you  show  him  the  blankets  ? 


397 

A.  I  did  iiot  show  bim  any  tiling,  Eeally,  in  my  own  mind,  I  only 
know  that  he  was  present  at  the  issue  by  the  fact  of  his  being  at  the 
agency  and  seeing  him  around  here.  My  mind  was  too  much  occupied 
with  the  business  I  was  engaged  in  to  pay  much  attention  to  who  was 
here. 

Q.  Did  Eed  Dog  make  any  complaint  during  the  issue  of  those 
blankets? 

A.  None  to  me. 

Q.  Was  he  present  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  was  in  the  warehouse. 

Q.  What  Indians,  if  any,  were  permitted  to  see  and  examine  the 
blankets  f 

A.  All  the  head-men  that  chose  to  come. 

Q.  What  blankets  did  you  issue  ? 

A.  I  issued  150  pairs  of  2-point  whites ;  150  pairs  of  IJ-point 
whites  ;  350  pairs  of  3-point  scarlet ;  250  pairs  of  2J-point  scarlet ; 
350  pairs  of  3-point  indigo-blue ;  250  pairs  of  3-poiut  green  ;  250  pairs 
of  2J-point  green  ;  100  pairs  of  2i-point  indigo-blue. 

Q.  Is  that  the  whole  ? 

A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  that  make  1,850  pairs  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  all  of  these  blankets  were  issued  that  day  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  yourself  assist  in  the  distribution  of  these  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  assisted  you  ? 

A.  My  employes,  Mr.  Tibbets,  Mr.  Lobach,  Mr.  Brewer,  and  a  num 
ber  of  other  men. 

Q.  Did  Louis  Eeshaw  assist  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  he  was  acting  as  the  head  of  the  half-breeds.  He  signed 
the  receipts  for  their  goods.  He  was  appointed  by  them  to  receive 
their  goods. 

Q.  Was  he  in  the  warehouse  assisting  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Professor  Marsh  says,  u  One  of  the  persons  whom  I  then  saw  as 
sisting  the  agent  in  issuing  the  blankets  was  Louis  Eeshaw."  Was  he 
at  that  time  employed  by  you  ? 

A.  He  had  been  employed  up  to  that  time.  I  think  that  day  I  dis 
charged  him.  1  had  hired  him  by  the  day  to  assist  in  counting  the 
Indians. 

Q.  Did  he  on  that  day  assist  in  distributing  the  blankets  and  other 
annuity-goods  to  the  Eed  Cloud  band? 

A.  No,  sir  5  only  in  receiving  the  goods  for  the  half-breeds. 

Q.  Did  he  or  did  Eed  Dog  or  Red  Cloud  on  that  day  complain  that 
they  did  not  get  their  full  quantity  of  annuity-goods  ? 

A.  1  did  not  hear  any  complaints  on  that  day.  In  fact,  persons  said 
in  the  evening  that  they  never  saw  such  general  satisfaction  in  the 
distribution  of  goods. 

Q.  Did  Louis  Eeshaw  ever  say  to  you  that  he  counted  the  bales  of 
blankets? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  18  bales  issued  at  a  different  time  from  the  others  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  were  all  issued  at  once  on  that  day. 

Q.  How  long  a  time  was  required  to  make  that  distribution  of  an 
nuity-goods? 


398 

A.  All  day.  It  was  perhaps  10  o'clock  when  we  commenced  opening 
the  bales,  and  we  did  not  get  through  until  pretty  near  dark. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  proportion  of  blankets  for  the  Sioux  na 
tion  was?  What  number  of  bales  went  to  the  Sioux? 

A.  All  went  to  the  Sioux. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  about  the  size  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  I  say  they  were  the  usual  weight  of  that  size  blankets,  but  in  my 
opinion  it  would  be  better  for  the  men  to  have  some  larger  blankets— 
•1-point  blankets. 

Q.  Professor  Marsh  says,  "  The  blankets  actually  issued  were  bitterly 
complained  of  by  the  Indians  for  two  reasons—the  first  being  their 
small  sizes,  which  were  not  adapted  to  men  as  large  as  the  Sioux  braves, 
and  were  only  fitted  for  women  and  children."  Did  they  so  complain! 

A.  They  did. 

Q.  And  in  your  judgment  the  blankets  were  too  small  for  the  braves? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  object  to  the  brand  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  only  to  its  appearance.  They  complained  of  the  appear 
ance  of  the  blankets.  They  wanted  to  know  what  the  brand  was  on 
there  for.  They  thought  it  was  something  connected  with  the  soldiers. 

Q.  Why  Avas  the  issue  of  blankets  delayed  to  so  late  a  period  ? 

A.  They  were  withheld  to  compel  these  people  to  be  counted. 

Q.  Were  they  suffering  for  want  of  blankets  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  think  not  particularly. 

Q.  How  long  had  the  blankets  and  annuity-goods  been  at  the  agency 
before  the  issue? 

A.  The  last  two  bales  of  blankets  were  received  on  the  3d  November, 

Q.  When  were  the  first  annuity-goods  received  I 

A.  On  the  6th  October. 

Q.  Now,  who  is  the  next  in  rank  to  Eed  Cloud  in  the  Sioux  Nation  ? 

A.  There  is  no  such  rank  among  them. 

Q.  Thisisthe  Professor's  expression  :  u  This  earnest  protest  on  the  part 
of  the  chief  who  is  next  to  Eed  Cloud  called  my  particular  attention  to 
the  amount  issued.'7  AY  ho  is  that  person  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Does  the  description  enable  you  to  tell  who  that  is  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  manner  were  those  goods  delivered  ? 

A.  The  warehouse-door  was  opened,  and  a  semicircle  of  the  Indians 
formed  around  it,  outside  the  door.  Most  of  the  chiefs  themselves  were 
in  the  warehouse.  The  goods  were  then  taken,  each  kind  selected  out 
of  the  packages,  taken  out  from  the  bales,  and  then  opened.  The  lists 
were  called  out  arid  the  amount  marked  on  the  lists  opposite  their  names, 
and  the  goods  were  carried  by  the  employes  and  laid  down  in  front  of 
each  representative  man. 

Q.  Then  if  one  chief  was  entitled  to  so  many  blankets,  so  many  yards 
of  cloth,  and  so  much  of  another  article,  his  proportion  would  be  put 
together  in  a  separate  pile  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  mode  of  distributing  annuity-goods  except  to 
the  heads  or  chiefs  of  bands  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  other. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  distributed  goods  to  the  Indians  individually? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  left  to  the  chief  of  a  band  to  distribute  to  his  people  the 
quantity  which  that  band  receives  ? 


399 

A.  No,  sir.  It  is  the  soldiers  of  the  band  who  distribute  the  goods. 
The  chief  receives  them  and  the  soldiers  distribute  them.  That  is  their 
custom. 

Q.  What  system  of  checks  have  you  to  ascertain  the  actual  amount 
given  or  required  ? 

A.  Just  the  list  of  the  names.  Take  Red  Cloud,  who  has  a  certain 
number  of  people:  That  number  is  a  certain  proportion  of  the  whole 
number  of  the  people.  I  find  by  the  bills  how  much  of  certain  kinds  of 
goods  there  is  to  be  distributed,  and  I  give  him  the  proportion  he  is  en 
titled  to,  and  in  the  same  way  with  each  of  the  others. 

Q.  Have  you  any  record  of  that  before  the  distribution  begins? 

A.  I  make  it  up  on  paper,  and  the  paper  should  be  on  file  among  these 
documents  which  I  have  in  my  hand,  but  I  find  it  is  not  here.  It  has 
been  misplaced,  but  it  is  somewhere. 

Q.  You  make  up  the  distribution  on  paper  beforehand  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  in  the  distribution  of  goods,  how  do  you  show  afterward 
that  the  distribution  has  actually  been  made  "? 

A.  I  have  no  other  showing  for  it  except  the  returns 

Q.  You  have  the  lists  made  up  with  the  name  of  each  chief,  the  num 
ber  of  his  people,  the  proportion  of  each  article  which  is  to  be  distributed. 
Now,  when  that  distribution  has  actually  been  made,  what  do  you  do  J? 
Do  you  check  the  lists  1 

A.  I  check  them  off,  each  issue  of  each  article  as  it  is  made. 

Q.  Did  you  do  it  on  the  12th  November  yourself  ? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  Now,  then,  the  statement  of  Professor  Marsh  is  that  "  The  only 
data  by  which  the  issue  was  regulated  was  a  pencil-memorandum  in 
the  hands  of  the  agent,  who  called  off  the  quantity  to  be  delivered  to 
each  chief  or  headman."  Is  that  a  correct  statement  ? 

A.  Except  that  the  paper  was  written  out  in  ink,  and  I  checked  it 
with  a  pencil. 

Q.  Did  you  see  whether  or  not  all  the  goods  upon  that  written  mem 
orandum  were  actually  delivered  to  the  persons  named  !  - 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  the  delivery,  did  any  Indian  say  to  you  that  he  had  not  re 
ceived  his  share  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  one. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  In  taking  the  receipts  of  Indians  for  supplies  issued,  what  means 
do  you  employ  to  see  that  they  understand  w7hat  they  are  receipting 
for! 

A.  Reading  out  and  having  the  interpreter  explain  it  as  he  goes 
along.  I  generally  ask  them  through  the  interpreter  if  they  under 
stand  it  before  they  sign  the  receipt. 

Q.  Do  you  do  that  in  the  case  of  each  .issue  of  each  article  ? 

A.  I  explain  it  to  all  the  party  together.  The  interpreter  certifies 
that  he  has  correctly  interpreted  it  to  them. 

Q.  Do  you  always  make  these  issues  yourself  2 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  certificate  do  you  render  to  the  Department  of  the  issue? 

A.  Just  a  copy  of  the  receipt,  which  is  as  follows: 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T., 

November  12,  ]874. 

We,  the  undersigned,  chiefs  and  headmen  of  the  Ogallala  Sioux,  acknowledge  to  have 
this  day  received  of  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent,  the  following  articles  of 
annuity-goods,  the  same  being  our  annuities  for  the  year  1874. 


400 

Then  follows  a  list  of  goods  and  the  names  of  the  chiefs.  The  first 
signature  is  that  of  Eed  Cloud.  The  next  are  Eed  Dog,  Slow  Bull, 
Sitting  Bull  5  and  Louis  Eeshaw,  for  the  mixed-bloods. 

Q.  When  you  receive  articles  from  the  contractor,  by  what  method  do 
you  verify  the  amount  received J? 

A.  In  packages  put  up,  and  in  that  form  weighed  by  the  inspector. 
We  generally  take  them  by  the  inspector's  marks,  unless  they  show 
signs  of  having  been  opened,  and  in  that  case  we  weigh  them. 

Q.  Do  you  receive  anything  except  beef  without  the  contractor's 
brand  ! 

A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  mode  of  inspecting  beef,  to  see  that  it  is  up  to  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Simply  by  generally  viewing  and  weighing  the  herd. 

Q.  Who  is  the  inspector  ? 

A.  The  agent  is  considered  inspector.  There  is  no  special  inspector 
of  live  stock. 

Q.  What  means  has  the  agent  of  compelling  the  freighter  to  hasten 
goods  forward  ! 

A.  None,  but  reporting  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  How  frequently  during  your  occupancy  of  this  position  have  you 
been  put  to  inconvenience  by  the  delays  of  freighters? 

A.  Twice  to  that  extent  that  I  had  to  report  to  Washington. 

Q.  How  long  a  delay  were  you  subjected  to  in  those  cases  f 

A.  I  do  not  remember  now  the  exact  time  ;  four  or  five  weeks. 

Q.  Under  date  of  December  29, 1873,  your  letter-book  shows  that  you 
reported  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  that  Mr.  McCannwasnot 
furnishing  the  requisite  amount  of  transportation  from  Cheyenne,  and 
stated  that  if  transportation  should  tail  you  would  be  compelled  to  issue 
beef  in  lieu  of  the  supplies  of  bacon  and  Hour.  Can  you  state  what  ac 
tion  was  taken  by  the  Department  on  receipt  of  your  letter  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  McCann  was  notified  by  the  Department,  and  he 
immediately  furnished  the  transportation. 

Q.  With  regard  to  the  mode  of  receiving  beef,  do  you  ever  make  any 
allowance  to  the  contractors  for  shrinkage  on  account  of  over-driv 
ing? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  it  ever  been  done  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  A  question  was  raised  here  at  one  time  with  regard  to 
that. 

Q.  NOWT,  what  is  the  amount  of  a  ration  issued  to  the  Indians! 

A.  I  will  take  it  at  100  rations:  300  pounds  gross  of  beef,  75  pounds  of 
flour,  4  pounds  of  coffee,  8  pounds  of  sugar,  about  15  pounds  of  bacon. 
In  lieu  of  a  part  of  the  flour,  wrhen  we  have  corn  and  beans,  I  issue  30 
pounds  of  flour,  30  pounds  of  corn,  and  8  pounds  of  beans,  in  lieu  of  the 
75  pounds  of  flour.  I  will  explain  to  you  that  this  is  the  basis  of  the 
estimate  for  food,  but  the  Indians  do  not  always  get  that  amount  every 
issue. 

Q.  Why  do  they  get  a  less  amount  ? 

A.  Because  a  less  amount  is  purchased  for  them,  and  we  have  to  re 
duce  the  amount  of  rations. 

Q.  To  what  extent  are  the  rations  reduced  ? 

A.  To  the  extent  of  the  necessities  of  the  case — of  the  supplies  on 
hand. 

Q.  To  what  extent  are  the  rations  reduced  in  the  supplies  furnished? 


401 

A.  Last  year  they  were  reduced  perhaps  one-third  of  the  whole 
amount;  that  is  approximate!^. 

Q.  With  regard  to  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  this  place — what  is 
your  estimate  of  it '? 

A.  My  estimate  by  the  road  that  has  been  measured  was  from  one 
hundred  and  sixty-five  to  one  hundred  and  seventy-five  miles. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  road  is  longer  or  shorter  than  the  one 
usualy  traveled  by  freighters  ? 

A.  I  know  it  only  by  the  statements  of  freighters.  I  infer  from  its 
course  that  it  is  longer. 

Q.  How  much  longer,  do  you  suppose  ? 

A.  I  have  no  idea,  sir;  all  the  idea  I  have  is  from  what  I  have  been 
told. 

Q.  In  your  letter-book,  under  date  of  November  9, 1873, 1  find  a  certifi 
cate  that  the  generally  traveled  road  from  Cheyenne,  as  measured  by  an 
odometer,  was  found  to  be  226^^  miles.  Will  you  state,  if  you  please, 
the  circumstances  of  the  measurement  ? 

A.  A  letter  was  written  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  order 
ing  an  odometer  to  be  put  on  a  wheel  at  Cheyenne  by  the  store-keeper, 
sealed,  and  not  to  be  removed  until  it  arrived  at  the  agency,  where  I 
was  to  open  it  and  certify  to  the  distance,  as  the  letter  stated,  but  really 
to  the  indications  of  the  odometer.  The  odometer  was  placed  on  a 
wagon-wheel,  and  when  it  arrived  here  I  found  that  it  would  not  indicate 
the  distance.  Another  was  purchased  which  would  indicate  the  distance, 
and  when  it  got  here  I  took  it  off,  and  found  that  its  indications  were,  I 
think,  about  one  hundred  and  thirty  miles,  but  it  had  been  taken  off 
the  wagon,  and  therefore  its  indications  were  not  correct,  as  I  supposed. 
Under  the  instructions  to  me,  I  was  ordered,  in  case  I  deemed  it  neces 
sary,  to  return  the  odometer  and  have  it  placed  on  again.  I  did  return 
it  to  Cheyenne,  and  about  that  time  I  received  a  letter  from  the  Com 
missioner  urging  me  about  the  measurement,  and  Mr,  McCann  put  an 
odometer  on  a  light  wagon  or  buggy,  and  brought  it  through  sealed,  as 
was  ordered.  On  that  I  certified  to  what  that  odometer  indicated  when 
it  arrived  here. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  amount  ? 

A.  I  think  it  indicated  about  two  hundred  and  twenty-six  miles. 

Q.  Had  you  any  reason  to  suppose  that  either  of  those  odometers  was 
tampered  with  except  the  one  you  said  had  been  taken  off? 

A.  I  had  not. 

Q.  Your  letter-book,  under  date  of  December  21st,  1874,  reports  that 
128  cattle  are  missing,  as  you  have  stated  to-day ;  that  all  but  30  or  40 
(which  went  off  to  the  Snake  .River)  were  trailed  to  the  contractor's 
herd.  What  means  were  taken  to  secure  the  return  of  the  80  or  90  still 
supposed  to  be  in  the  contractor's  herd  f 

A.  It  was  referred  to  the  Department.  Mr.  Bosler  and  I  were  disput 
ing  over  it.  He  denied  that  so  many  had  been  traced  to  his  herd,  and 
I  referred  the  matter  to  the  Department. 

Q.  What  was  the  final  result  of  the  controversy  ? 

A.  The  result  was,  that  the  Department  settled  it  by  crediting  me  with 
the  number  missing,  upon  proofs  which,  as  I  understand  it,  the  Boslers 
furnished  to  the  Department. 

Q.  Your  letter-book,  under  date  of  November  13,  1874,  shows  a  letter 
to  the  Department,  reporting  that  some  mess-pork  received  is  entirely 
worthless  for  the  use  of  the  Indians,  and,  under  date  of  December  7, 1874, 
reports  that  all  the  pork,  except  the  first  200  barrels,  is  composed  of 
shoulders  and  necks,  and  that  "  as  this  is  of  no  use  to  the  Indians,  I  have 
26  I  F 


402 

quit  issuing  it,  and  shall  issue  no  more  until  I  receive  instructions  from 
you  ;  and  1  request  instructions.'7  What  instructions  did  you  receive  f 

A.  I  received  instructions  at  that  time  to  withhold  it  from  issue  until 
the  contractor  should  make  it  right.  It  was  afterward  settled  with  the 
contractor  that  he  should  deliver  bacon  in  lieu  of  the  difference  in.  value 
between  this  pork  and  mess-pork. 

Q.  Your  books  show  430  barrels  then  on  hand  and  in  transit.  Was 
that  delivered  to  the  Indians  after  the  settlement  had  been  made? 

A.  It  was,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  amount  of  funds  annually  pass  through  the  hands  of 
the  agent  at  this  place  ? 

A.  The  total  amount  received  from  the  third  quarter  of  1873  to  the 
second  quarter  of  1875,  is  $01,313.97.  The  following  statement  shows 
the  amounts  received  each  quarter  during  that  period  : 

Amount  received  third  quarter,  1873 87,  9GO  00 

Amount  received  fourth  quarter,  1873 9,  330  00 

Amount  received  first  quarter,  1874 8, 175  83 

Amount  received  second  quarter,  1874 2, 177  07 

Amount  received  third  quarter,  1874; 1,  486  07 

Amount  received  fourth  quarter,  1874 12,  480  00 

Amount  received  first  quarter,  1875 ..........    . , 9, 530  00 

Amount  received  second  quarter,  1875 10, 175  00 


Total  amount  received   , Gl,  313  97 

Q.  What  was  the  expense  of  erecting  the  agency  buildings  ? 

A.  The  expense  of  erecting  the  buildings,  aside  from  the  running  of 
the  agency,  1  have  not  estimated.  A  good  proportion  of  the  work  was 
done  by  the  employes  of  the  agency. 

Q.  Have  all  the  bills  contracted  at  that  time  been  paid  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  are  a  fewr  bills  which  have  not  been  paid. 

Q.  To  what  amount,  probably  ? 

A.  The  whole  of  1873  and  1874  deficiency  amounts,  I  think,  to  about 
85,000. 

Q.  What  is  the  occasion  of  the  delay  in  these  payments'? 

A.  They  were  stricken  off  the  Deficiency  Bill.  Last  winter  I  was  in 
Washington,  and  understood  they  were  on  the  bill,  but  just  at  the  last 
of  the  session  they  were  stricken  off'  writh  other  things. 

Q.  Does  the  delay  of  the  Government  in  settling  its  accounts  increase 
the  running  expenses  of  the  agency  "I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  to  what  amount  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  From  what  source  or  fund  are  supplies  furnished  to  the  employes 
of  the  agency? 

A.  They  have  been  issued  from  the  Indian  supplies  up  to  the  first  of 
this  fiscal  year. 

Q.  Has  any  additional  appropriation  been  made  for  that  purpose  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  any. 

Q.  Have  you  supposed  that  the  supplies  for  the  employes  of  the 
agency  were  so  much  taken  out  from  the  supplies  furnished  for  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  That  is  what  I  have  supposed. 

Q.  Has  any  change  been  made  since  July  1,  1875,  in  that  respect ! 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  employes  receive  an  allowance  for  rations,  which 
they  are  allowed  to  purchase  from  the  Indian  supplies  on  hand. 


403 

Q.  What  becomes  of  the  money  paid  by  the  employes  for  their 
rations  ? 

A.  The  instructions  have  just  arrived,  and  I  have  not  investigated 
what  shall  be  done  with  it.  It  is  to  be  taken  from  their  pay. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  whether  in  the  new  arrangement  for  supplying 
the  Indians  any  provision  is  made  for  the  amount  taken  out  for  the  use 
of  the  employes  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  How  many  white  employes  of  the  agency  have  Indian  or  half- 
breed  wives  ? 

A.  Ten. 

Q.  Do  their  families  draw  supplies  from  the  Government  as  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  affair  of  raising  a  flag-staff  has  been  referred  to  several  times. 
Will  you  state,  in  the  briefest  form,  what  was  your  reason  for  wishing 
to  put  up  a  flag-staff  at  the  agency ! 

A.  I  had  two  reasons.  One  was,  that  I  might  use  it  to  raise  a  flag 
upon  on  Sunday,  to  indicate  to  the  Indians  when  Sunday  came ;  another 
was,  to  use  it  for  the  purpose  of  signaling  the  military  post  for  assist 
ance,  if  necessary. 

Q.  Is  there  any  school  maintained  about  the  agency? 

A.  Not  at  present. 

Q.  Has  there  been  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  means  of  moral  or  religious  training  for  either  chil 
dren  or  adults  employed  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  several  times  in  your  testimony  of  the  Indian 
soldiers.  Will  you  state  briefly  how  they  are  organized,  and  whether 
they  receive  pay,  and  how  they  are  employed  ? 

A.  They  are  simply  some  Indian  soldiers  or  warriors  whom  I  employ 
occasionally,  under  a  commission  of  the  Department,  when  they  are 
needed,  and  pay  them  a  per  diem  for  the  time  they  are  actually  em 
ployed. 

Q.  Are  they  organized  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  think  of  the  policy  of  the  organization  of  the  In 
dians  into  companies  or  battalions  for  the  purpose  of  protecting  the 
agency — keeping  them  under  regular  organization  "I 

A.  That  is  something  I  have  been  trying  to  get  permission  to  accom 
plish  ever  since  I  have  been  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Would  the  agency  in  that  case  be  able,  so  far  as  its  defense  is 
concerned,  to  dispense  with  the  aid  of  the  regular  Army  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  believe  so. 

Q.  How  are  the  estimates  for  supplies  for  the  agency  made  ? 

A.  They  are  made  by  me  upon  the  calculation  of  the  average  number 
of  Indians  to  be  fed,  on  the  basis  of  rations  1  have  given  you. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  allowance  in  your  estimate  for  the  probable  in 
crease  in  the  number  of  the  Indians  during  certain  seasons  of  the  year? 

A.  I  did  this  year,  but  not  last  year,  and  that,  I  suppose,  was  one  of 
the  reasons  for  the  short  amount  of  rations. 


404 

EED  CLOLTD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Friday,  August  13,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  0.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATIIERTON. 

The  examination  of  Dr.  Saville  was  resumed. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Question.  Does  your  estimate  for  supplies  cover  anything  for  the  em 
ployes?  You  told  us  yesterday  that  during  the  last  fiscal  year  the 
supplies  for  the  employes  were  taken  out  of  the  Indian  supplies.  Now 
the  question  is,  Does  your  estimate  for  this  year  cover  anything  for  the 
employes  ! 

Answer.  I  have  never  made  an  estimate  for  the  employes  separately. 

Q.  Have  any  back  issues  been  made  to  cover  the  times  when  the  In 
dians  did  not  receive  their  regular  supplies! 

A.  None,  except  of  beef  to  cover  the  time  of  the  enumeration. 

Q.  How  long  last  winter  was  the  road  in  such  condition  as  to  prevent 
the  regular  delivery  of  supplies  '? 

A.  During  January  and  February. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  times  there  was  a  failure  to  issue  r<  gu- 
larly  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  ? 

A.  I  cannot.     I  was  away  a  portion  of  the  time. 

Q.  Are  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  treated  any  differently  from 
the  Sioux  ? 

A.  Not  in  regard  to  supplies. 

Q.  Are  they  in  any  other  respect  ? 

A.  Well,  they  get  their  annuities  separately.  O,  no  ;  they  are  treated 
no  differently  in  that  respect,  either,  only  they  do  not  get  them  at  the 
same  time. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Will  you  hand  to  the  commission  on  their  return  from  Spotted 
Tail  agency  a  detailed  statement  or  transcript  sfrom  your  books  of  the 
annuity-goods  received  and  distributed  for  1874  ? 

A.  I  will  do  so. 

Q.  Will  you  also  hand  to  the  commission  a  transcript  of  your  beef- 
account  from  July  1,  1874,  to  this  time,  with  such  explanations  as  you 
may  deem  necessary  ? 

A.  I  will,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  then,  I  want  to  ask  you  what  account  you  keep  of  the  distri 
bution  of  the  annuity-goods. 

A.  I  keep  only  the  receipt  given  by  the  Indians. 

Q.  Can  you  show,  from  any  account  or  memorandum,  the  quantity  of 
annuity-goods  given  to  the  headmen  severally  ? 

A.  I  cannot. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  of  the  tobacco  issued  during  the  last  year  ? 
Was  it  or  was  it  not  a  good  quality  of  tobacco,  and  was  it  adapted  to 
the  wants  of  the  Indians  ! 

A.  In  my  opinion  a  different  kind  of  tobacco  would  be  better  for  the 
Indians. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  of  the  sugar  of  last  year? 

A.  I  say  that  it  was  a  fair  article  of  brown  sugar. 

Q.  Was  it  as  good  as  the  sugar  you  are  now  receiving? 


405 

A.  Not  quite. 

Q.  Is  the  sample  of  coffee  which  you  have  presented  to  the  commis 
sioners  since  they  have  been  here  a  fair  sample  of  all  the  coffee  re 
ceived  under  the  contracts  of  1874  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  about  an  average  sample. 

Q.  Was  there  any  coffee  worse  than  that  f 

A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  some  of  it  that  was  darker,  and  there  were 
more  dark  grains  in  it.  Whether  it  was  any  worse  as  a  whole,  I  cannot 
say. 

Q.  In  your  judgment  was  the  pork,  the  prime  pork,  all  of  it  sound, 
sweet  pork "? 

A.  I  believe  it  was,  as  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  some  portions  of  it  w%re  made  of  shoulders,  necks, 
and  middlings  a? 

A.  That  is  true. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  was  that  pork  merchantable  in  any  market? 

A.  "Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  market ! 

A.  I  think  it  was  pork  that  was  put  up  for  the  southern  market.  At 
least  I  have  seen  such  pork  put  up  before  for  market. 

Q.  Bo  you  not  say  that  it  was  a  very  low  grade  of  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do. 

Q.  And  in  your  judgment  was  such  pork  adapted  to  the  wants  of  the 
Indians  in  any  respect  ? 

A.  It  was  not. 

Q.  WThy  did  you,  at  last,  recommend  its  distribution  to  the  Indians, 
after  having  notified  the  Department  that  it  was  not  what  they  wanted  ? 

A.  After  some  time,  when  the  rations  were  short,  the  Indians  wanted 
the  pork.  There  were  some  barrels  opened  and  issued,  and  I  gave  that 
to  them.  They  used  it,  and  as  more  of  them  got  to  using  it  they 
wanted  the  pork.  Mr.  Slavens  had  then,  as  I  understand  it,  made  a 
proposition  to  the  Department  to  deliver  bacon  in  lieu  of  the  difference 
of  the  value  of  this  pork  and  mess-pork,  and  as  the  Indians  had  found 
that  they  could  use  it  and  were  using  it,  and  were  anxious  to  get  it,  and 
were  short  of  supplies,  I  recommended  that  it  should  be  accepted. 

Q.  Now,  then,  I  want  to  ask  you  about  the  seven  cattle  which  were 
seen  by  Professor  Marsh  and  the  military  officers.  Were  those  cattle 
issued  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  They  were  not  issued  as  beef  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  Were  they  accepted  and  paid  for  as  beef? 

A.  No,  sir.  they  were  not. 

Q.  Elave  they  ever  been  paid  for  J? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  been  deducted  from  Bosler's  vouchers,  or  have  an  equal 
number  been  deducted  ? 

A.  I  never  gave  any  vouchers  for  them.  They  were  never  included  in 
any  voucher.  I  never  receipted  to  Bosler  for  them.  They  came  to  me  as 
a  part  of  the  150  head  that  Mr.  Bosler  had  agreed  to  return  on  account  of 
the  cattle  which  had  stampeded  and  gone  back  to  the  contractor's  herd. 
They  were  turned  on  the  range  with  the  other  cattle,  and  afterwards, 
when  Mr.  Bosler  returned,  1  refused  to  receive  a  certain  number  of  them. 
I  think  only  four  of  those  cattle  were  received.  The  others  which  were 
rejected  were  either  killed  or  taken  by  the  Indians.  There  were  thir 
teen  rejected  altogether.  I  have  my  memorandum  somewhere,  but  I  am 
speaking  now  from  memory.  There  were  thirteen  head,  any  way,  which 
I  refused  to  receipt  for,  and  these  four  were  some  of  those.  I  propose 


406 

to  give  you  before  you  go  away  an  affidavit  of  the  chief  herder  who  was 
then  in  charge  of  the  herd.  I  will  explain  further.  1  never  under  any 
circumstances  received  yearlings,  and  those  cattle  which  they  saw  in 
the  range  were  yearlings.  Their  statement  was  that  there  were  eight 
head  of  cattle  on  the  range.  Four  of  those  had  been  brought  to  me  by 
Mr.  Bosler  for  the  pupose  of  turning  them  over  to  me  as  beeves,  and 
those  I  rejected  and  never  receipted  for.  They  were  part  of  thirteen; 
the  rest  of  the  thirteen  were  probably  killed  by  the  Indians.  They 
were  not  there. 

Q.  State  wrhat  conversation  took  place  between  you  and  Professor 
Marsh  and  the  Commissioner  with  reference  to  those  cattle. 

A.  In  the  first  place  it  was  a  free  conversation  without  thought  that 
it  would  be  published.  I  remarked  to  the  Commissioner,  in  his  office, 
that  I  thought  I  had  never  receipted  for  those  cattle  which  General 
Bradley  spoke  of.  That  being  published,  Professor  Marsh  came  to  me 
and  wanted  to  know  if  I  had  said  that  I  had  never  received  those  cattle. 
I  told  him  no  ;  that  I  had  not  stated  positively,  that  I  did  not  remember 
distinctly  about  it,  but  that  there  were  two  of  them  at  least — two  year 
lings — which  I  never  received,  and  the  others  I  could  not  speak  of  posi 
tively. 

Q.  Now  let  me  inquire  whether  you  understood  that  inquiry  to  be 
made  by  Professor  Marsh  in  consequence  of  Commissioner  Smith's  pub 
lie  statement  of  May  29. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  understood  that.  When  I  met  Professor  Marsh  again, 
it  was  in  Bishop  Hare's  room  in  the  hotel.  There  this  question  came  up 
again,  and  Professor  Marsh  stated,  in  substance,  that  I  had  said  that 
I  had  received  those  cattle  and  issued  them.  I  told  him  that  I  had 
not  said  so;  that  I  said  I  thought  I  had  not  receipted  for  them,  but 
I  could  not  remember  distinctly.  He  then  asked  me,  "  If  you  have  re 
ceived  them,  were  they  issued  to  the  Indians  F  I  said  "  Probably  they 
were."  He  then  went  to  take  it  down,  and  then  repeated  over  nearly 
what  he  says  there  in  the  statement.  I  stopped  him,  and  told  him  that 
he  willfully  misinterpreted  or  misunderstood  me.  I  told  him  I  thought 
he  was  trying  to  make  up  a  case  against  me,  and  he  did  not  care  how 
he  did  it.  By  that  time  Bishop  Hare  got  up  and  put  his  hand  on  me, 
for  I  was  getting  very  angry.  I  said  a  good  deal  more,  but  that  is  the 
substance  of  what  I  said  to  him  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  Professor  Marsh's  reply  to  your  statement  ? 

A.  He  disclaimed  any  intention  of  misrepresenting  or  misuuder 
standing  me,  and  I  apologized  to  him  for  getting  angry,  and  I  let  it  pass, 
supposing,  of  course,  that  he  had  made  the  correction  which  I  wanted 
him  to  make.  Afterwards,  on  my  way  back,  I  stopped  in  Iowa,  and 
saw  the  man  who  had  charge  of  the  herd  at  that  time,  and  he  told  me 
that  these  four  were  a  part  of  the  rejected  cattle,  and  two  were  year 
lings,  (which  of  course  did  not  require  to  be  rejected,)  and  two  were 
milch-cows,  one  belonging  to  Mr.  Eeel,  near  Cheyenne,  which  I  had 
borrowed  for  my  own  use,  and  the  other  was  a  little  milch-cow,  which 
Mr.  Bosler  had  brought  up  for  the  herders.  They  were  both  very  small 
cows. 

Q.  Were  these  cattle  which  you  say  had  been  rejected  not  afterwards- 
issued  by  you  to  the  Indians  as  beef  f 

A.  No,  sir ;  never. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Wras  all  the  flour  you  received  here  from  the  wagons  weighed  by 
you  here  ? 


407 

A.  All  except  the  first  few  loads.  We  would  weigh,  say  ten  sacks  out 
of  the  wagons,  and  then  count  the  balance  out,  but  all  the  first  few 
train-loads  were  100-pound  sacks.  After  that,  they  were  all  weighed,  and 
they  were  of  different  weights;  so  no  matter  what  was  the  size  of  the 
sacks,  I  only  receipted  for  so  many  pounds  of  flour. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  the  accounts  between  yourself  and  the 
Government,  and  between  yourself  and  Mr.  Bosler,  touching  the  stam 
peded  cattle,  have  yet  been  the  subject  of  adjustment  and  settlement? 

A.  I  cannot  exactly. 

Q.  First,  how  is  it  as  between  yourself  and  the  Government?  Has 
that  been  settled  ? 

A.  I  suppose  it  has. 

Q.  Now,  as  to  between  you  and  Mr.  Bosler  ? 

A.  I  did  not  make  any  settlement  with  Mr.  Bosler.  I  understood 
that  that  matter  was  settled  directly  between  Mr.  Bosler  and  the  Gov 
ernment.  I  stated  the  facts  to  the  Commissioner.  Bosler  and  I  had  a 
misunderstanding  about  it,  and  I  understand  he  settled  it  personally 
with  the  Government.  I  suppose,  however,  that  if  there  had  been 'such 
a  settlement,  I  would  have  received  instructions  to  receipt  to  Bosler  for 
those  beeves,  in  order  to  make  my  accounts  correct  with  the  Govern 
ment,  but  I  have  not  yet  received  any  such  instructions. 

Q.  Has  Mr.  Bosler  your  receipt  for  the  150  cattle  ? 

A.  No,a;.r  He  has  no  official  receipt,  but  I  believe  I  gave  him  a 
memorandum  ceipt. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Monday,  August  23,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
,HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and   Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Dr.  J.  J.  SAVILLE  was  recalled. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question.  In  the  letter  of  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  dated  May  19,  1874,  it 
is  stated  that  Mr.  Bosler  wrote  for  the  signature  of  Dr.  Saville  two 
receipts,  dated  October  1  and  15, 1873,  one  of  which,  at  least,  was  fraud 
ulent.  I  want  to  inquire  what  you  know  concerning  those  receipts. 

Answer.  I  gave  Mr.  Bosler  two  receipts  for  cattle  in  October.  I  think 
in  1873.  I  will  have  to  look  at  my  books  to  verify  dates. 

Q.  Who  wrote  those  receipts  ? 

A.  I  wrote  the  receipts  out  and  Mr.  Bosler  wrote  the  copy. 

Q.  Why  was  that  done  ? 

A.  The  clerk  was  not  present  to  write  them,  and  Mr.  Bosler  writes  bet 
ter  than  I  do,  and  I  requested  him  to  copy  the  receipts  for  my  signature, 
and  he  did  so. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  the  receipt  of  cattle  in  October,  1873,  that  is 
the  time  to  which  those  receipts  for  cattle  refer  to  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  those  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  ? 

A.  We  had  no  scales  at  that  time  to  weigh  cattle.  We  had  to  receive 
the  cattle,  and  select  out  of  the  herd  a  certain  number,  and  kill  them 


408 

and  weigh  them,  and  average  the  weight  of  all  those  received  from 
those. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  circumstance  of  receiving  those  cattle  in 
October,  1873,  particularly? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  not  particularly. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  how  many  were  killed  ? 

A.  I  could  not.  We  usually  killed  from  tive  t )  twentv ;  on  those  two 
occasions,  I  don't  know  exactly  how  many  were  killed.  The  number 
killed  was  the  number  required  for  use  by  those  who  were  receiving  the 
meat.  We  killed  enough  so  as  to  make  an  average.  The  cattle  selected 
for  the  average  were  usually  selected  by  the  butcher  and  by  myself,  and 
sometimes  by  others  whom  I  employed  for  the  purpose. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  kill  a  number  of  cattle  as  an  average  which  were 
selected  by  Mr.  Bosier,  or  either  of  the  Boslers,  as  an  average  ! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  soon  did  you  get  the  scales  up  which  are  now  there? 

A.  We  got  them  up  about  the  middle  of  November,  1873. 

Q.  Since  these  scales  have  been  put  up,  have  all  cattle  been  weighed  ? 

A,  Yes,  sir  ;  with  the  exceptions  I  have  explained  to  you,  and  another 
time  when  I  received  some  cattle  which  I  could  not  get  into  the  corral. 
It  was  snowing  very  hard  and  we  could  not  get  them  into  the  corral. 

Q.  Did  either  of  the  Messrs.  Bosier  at  any  time  bring  you  receipts 
for  cattle,  written  by  himself  or  themselves,  when  you  yourself  had  not 
superintended  the  receiving  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  The  only  instance  in  which  he  wrote  a  receipt  was  the 
copying  of  one  or  two  receipts,  which  I  have  explained. 

Q.  Mr.  Walker  also  charges  that  Mr.  George  M.  Bosier  kept  the  beef- 
account  of  the  agency  while  he  was  at  lied  Cloud.  Did  Mr.  Bosier  ever 
keep  account  of  the  beef? 

A.  He  may  have  kept  it  for  himself. 

Q.  Was  there  any  time  when  he  kept  an  account  and  when  YOU  did 
not? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  with  me  the  beef-account  for  1873,  or  I  might 
show  you. 

Q.  When  was  the  first  stampede  of  cattle  after  you  became  agent  ? 

A.  It  was  in  the  fall  of  1873,  in  October,  1  think  Hie  8th  of  October; 
about  that  time;  I  think  that  was  the  date. 

Q .  Ho  w  m  a  n  y  w  ere  s  t  a  m  p  e  d  ed  ? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  the  exact  number  now  of  that  stampede.  We 
had  received  about  six  hundred  head,  and  had  made  the  issue  ;  and  my 
recollection  of  it  now  is  that  it  was  nearly  four  hundred  head,  but  I  can 
not  remember  the  exact  number  that  were  stampeded  ;  it  was  a  matter 
of  record,  but  I  did  not  charge  my  memory  with  it.  Sixty-seven  of 
those  cuttle  were  charged  to  the  Government. 

Q.  And  were  they  allowed  payment. for  them  ? 

A.  My  accounts  have  been  sent  in,  with  all  the  affidavits  in  the  case, 
and  a  short  time  ago  I  received  notice  that  additional  evidence  would 
be  required  in  regard  to  them,  which  I  have  furnished  the  Department, 
and  have  not  received  any  of  my  accounts  yet.  My  accounts  for  that 
year  have  not  been  settled. 

Q.  It  is  charged  by  Mr.  Walker,  in  his  letter  of  May  19, 1873,  that 
on  the  15th  of  October  you  certified  that  you  issued  twenty  head 
of  cattle,  when, in  fact,  you  issued  nocattle.  What  is  the  fact  in  regard  to 
that,  if  you  remember  ? 

A.  The  fact  is  that  I  was  ordered  to  date  the  receipts  on  the  1st  and 
the  loth  of  the  month,  and  the  date  did  not  always  agree  with  the 


409 

date  of  the  receipt  of  the  cattle  received  there.  I  cannot  say  that  I  re 
ceived  any  cattle  on  that  day. 

Q.  Do  you  now  remember  that  you  received  any  number  of  cattle — 
CIS—between  the  1st  and  15th  of  October,  1873  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  was  a  day  or  two  before  and  after  that  the  cattle  were 
received. 

Q.  How  could  it  be  after  ? 

A.  It  could  only  be  after  by  making  it  so,  as  I  understood  the  require 
ment  was  that  the  receipts  should  be  made  in  that  way. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  any  receipt  before  you  received  the  cattle  "I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  came  that  receipt  to  be  got  before  the  cattle  were  issued  al 

A.  It  was  not.  The  receipt  was  really  dated  back  to  the  15th,  so  if  I 
received  cattle  after  the  15th,  which  were  receipted  for  on  the  15th,  the 
receipt  was  dated  back.  I  never  receipted  for  any  cattle  that  were  not 
received.  I  am  sure  of  that. 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  Mr.  Bosler  did  not  have  that  receipt  in  his 
possession,  delivered  to  him  by  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  in  accordance  with  your  recollection  that  that  receipt  of  Octo 
ber  15th  covers  cattle  received  after  that  day  1 

A.  I  have  no  recollection  that  it  does. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  there  have  been  instances  of  that  kind,  where  cat- 
tie  have  been  receipted  for  after  they  have  been  issued  ? 

A.  I  would  not  say  positively.  I  have  no  recollection  of  such  a  thing, 
but  it  may  have  happened. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  given  the  same  explanation  of  this  fact  before  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  to  the  men  who  investigated  those  charges.  I  think  it 
has  been  in  print.  It  certainly  has  been  in  writing. 

Q.  Did  you  know  why  it  is  required  that  your  receipts  should  be  dated 
the  1st  and  15th  of  the  month  ? 

A.  I  did  not  j  but  after  the  investigation  I  made  inquiries  about  it,  and 
the  commission  said  they  did  not  think  it  was  a  necessary  regulation,  but 
that  the  receipts  should  be  given  twice  a  month.  After  that  I  dated  receipts 
on  the  day  the  cattle  were  received,  or,  in  some  instances,  a  few  days 
afterward.  If  the  cattle  were  received  a  day  or  two  before,  I  would  date 
them  on  the  first  of  the  month. 

Q.  Will  your  books  show  the  exact  day  on  which  the  cattle  were  re 
ceived  ? 

A.  I  think  not  on  that  book. 

Q.  Was  that  book  kept  in  the  same  manner  in  which  you  gave  re 
ceipts  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  character  of  the  book  ? 

A.  Just  the  same  kind  of  a.book  as  you  have,  only  it  is  another  book. 

Q.  Will  you  furnish  a  full  copy  or  transcript  of  that  book,  and  for 
ward  it  to  this  commission  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  will  do  so. 

Q.  Mr.  B.  F.  Walters  testified  before  the  Indian  Committee  of  the 
House  of  Representatives  that  he  heard  Dr.  Saville  say  that  he  gave 
receipts  some  days  in  advance  of  the  delivery  of  cattle,  &c.  Do  you 
know  anything  about  that  statement J? 

A.  Nothing,  only  I  asked  Mr.  Walters  what  he  meant  by  making  that 
statement,  when  he  returned,  and  he  explained  that  he  was  intending  to 
make  the  explanation  that  I  have  just  made  to  you;  that  is,  that  the  re 
ceipts  were  dated  the  15th,  and  the  cattle  were  delivered  afterward. 


410 

Q.  Did  you  ever  say  to  Mr.  Walters  that  you  gave  the  receipts  some 
days  iu  advance  of  the  delivery  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  I  did  not.  I  don't  remember  ever  having  said  anything  about  it 
until  after  he  made  that  statement. 

Q.  Have  you  in  any  instance  given  receipts  for  anything  before  re 
ceipt  of  the  articles  themselves  ! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Let  me  call  your  attention  to  the  receipt  given  to  Mr.  McCann. 
Did  you  not  give  him  some  receipts  for  cattle  when  it  appears  there  were 
no  cattle  purchased  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  will  explain  that.  I  made  a  contract  with  Mr.  McGann 
to  purchase  some  wagons  and  cattle,  by  authority  of  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs.  There  were  to  be  'twenty-eight  cattle,  ten  wagons, 
and  twenty  cows  advertised  for.  They-were  to  be  delivered  to  the  store 
keeper  at  Cheyenne  on  a  certain  day.  I  agreed  that,  on  the  delivery  of 
those  cattle  here,  the  vouchers  should  be  delivered  to  Mr.  McCann.  The 
vouchers  were  made  out  at  the  office ;  they  were  sent  here  to  the  store 
keeper,  and  the  cattle  were  not  delivered  on  that  day,  and  the  vouchers 
were  returned  to  me  at  once  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  not  write  that  the  cattle  had  been  purchased J? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wrote  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  that  the 
cattle  were  purchased,  as  I  believed.  I  was  a  little  fast  in  writing  that, 
but  I  supposed  they  had  been  purchased.  "  I  was  ahead  of  the  hounds." 
I  described  the  cattle  and  wagons  in  that  letter. 

Q.  You  described  cattle  which  you  had  never  seen  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  did  not  describe  the  cattle  at  all.  It  was  understood 
that  the  cattle  were  American  cattle. 

Q.  You  wrote  that  letter,  which  is  on  file  in  the  Department,  before 
you  had  seen  the  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not  issue  a  voucher  for  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  never  did. 

Q.  Did  he  (Mr.  McCann)  furnish  the  cattle,  and  wagons,  and  the  cows 
which  that  contract  called  for  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  \vant  you  to  be  explicit,  Doctor,  because  you  understand  this  point 
has  been  made  upon  you,  and  we  want  to  understand  your  explanation. 

A.  I  can  say  nothing,  only  this :  As  I  told  you,  they  were  sent  here  to 
the  store-keeper,  and  I  supposed  they  were  all  delivered  in  that  way. 

Q.  What  authority  had  your  store-keeper  over  the  question  of  reject 
ing  or  receiving  the  cattle,  wagons,  and  cows  ? 

A.  He  had  no  authority  except  that  which  I  gave  him. 

Q.  Was  there  anybody  here  to  determine  the  question  whether  these 
receipts  should  be  given  to  McCann  ? 

A.  Only  the  store-keeper. 

Q.  Had  he  any  authority,  other  than  to  see  to  delivering  the  receipts 
when  the  number  of  oxen,  wagons,  and  cows  were  turned  over  to  him  ? 

A.  Only  the  authority  which  I  gave  him. 

Q.  Did  he  have  any  authority  from  anybody  except  you  to  inspect 
and  accept  those  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  any  inspector  provided  for  by  the  contractor  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  bidders  for  that  contract  except  Mr.  Mc 
Cann  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  just  now. 


411 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  long  that  was  advertised  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  advertised  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  contract  annulled  in  any  way  ? 

A.  It  was  never  carried  into  effect. 

Q.  Were  those  cattle,  wagons,  and  cows  ever  supplied  to  the  Indians? 

A.  The  cattle  and  wagons  were,  but  not  the  cows ;  but  not  by  Mc- 
Canu.  nor  by  any  contract  which  I  made,  except  a  request  I  made  to 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  The  failure  to  get  those  things 
created  so  much  dissatisfaction  that  I  asked  permission  to  buy  them,  in 
open  market,  and  I  did  so.  The  contract  I  made  with  McCann  was  a 
written  contract. 

Q.  Why  was  it  not  carried  into  effect? 

A.  I  don't  know.  One  trouble  was  that  he  failed  to  get  the  wagons. 
They  were  to  be  the  Studabaker  wagon,  and  on  account  of  some 
destruction  by  fire  of  the  shops  he  failed  to  get  them.  No  attempt  was 
ever  made  to  enforce  the  penalties  of  the  contract. 

Q.  You  say  then  that  you  came  here  and  went  with  Mr.  McCann  and 
two  other  gentlemen  to  a  ranch  in  the  neighborhood,  about  twenty 
miles  northwest  from  here,  to  see  some  of  the  cattle  that  were  to  be 
furnished  under  that  contract  by  Mr.  McCann  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  all  of  them.  I  understood  that  Mr.  McCann  intended 
to  purchase  the  ranch  and  all  the  cattle.  And  having  seen  a  portion 
of  the  cattle  1  wrote  the  letter  which  is  now  on  file  in  the  Department, 
describing  the  cattle ;  but,  afterwards,  Mr.  McCann  having  failed  to 
comply  with  the  contract,  Mr.  Appletoii  purchased  other  cattle  at  one 
hundred  dollars,  which  was  less  in  price  than  I  agreed  to  pay  McCann. 
They  were,  however,  poorer  cattle  and  of  less  value,  but  no  part  of  the 
cattle  which  Mr.  Appleton  purchased  were  the  same  cattle  which  I  had 
seen.  They  did  just  as  well  for  the  Indians.  The  wagons  purchased 
were  less  in  price,  but  they  were  the  "  Bain  wagon,"  and  not  the  kind 
of  wagon  which  Mr.  McCanu  had  contracted  to  furnish. 

Q.  Now  in  regard  to  the  stampede  of  October  8,  if  that  was  the  time 
you  lost  the  four  hundred  cattle,  how  soon  did  you  recover  all  but  sixty- 
seven  ? 

A.  It  was  not  until  in  November  that  we  recovered  them.  We  did 
not  recover  them  all  at  once.  I  had  my  men  all  over  the  country  for 
three  or  four  weeks  hunting  the  cattle. 

Q.  Had  you  any  cattle  on  hand  after  the  stampede  of  the  15th  of  Oc 
tober  J? 

A.  I  don't  remember,  sir.     My  impression  is  that  there  were. 

Q.  You  issued  in  October,  as  appears  by  this  letter,  twelve  hundred 
cattle  (l 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  that  is  the  number  I  issued  on  that  date. 

Q.  Did  you  have,  during  the  months  of  October  and  November,  as 
many  cattle  in  your  possession  as  you  actually  issued,  which  had  been 
regularly  received  and  receipted  for  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  had  them  in  my  possession.  The  number  for  which  I 
receipted  had  been  in  possession  after  the  stampede.  I  did  not  have 
men  enough  to  take  care  of  the  herd  of  cattle,  and  at  the  same  time  go 
off  through  the  country  to  hunt  up  those  cattle,  and  by  an  arrangement 
with  Mr.  Bosler  I  returned  the  cattle  into  his  herd  with  the  understand 
ing  that  1  should  send  to  his  herd  and  get  them  out  when  they  were 
required  for  issue. 

Q.  What  cattle  did  you  return  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd? 


412 

A.  The  cattle  which  had  been  picked  up,  which  had  run  away.  Mr. 
Bosler's  men  gathered  a  good  many  of  them  tip  and  reported  it  to  me. 

Q.  Then  you  returned  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  all  but  sixty-seven  of  the 
whole  number  stampeded  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  after  they  had  been  returned  to  his  herd,  did  you  obtain 
from  him  an  equal  amount  of  beef  ? 

A.  I  took  them  from  him  as  I  did  the  others.  It  was  a  very  large  herd, 
and  the  average  was  about  the  same,  and  I  took  the  cattle  at  the  same 
as  I  had  receipted  for  them.  I  took  them  by  count  all  around. 

Q.  Was  that  during  the  month  of  November,  before  the  close  of  the 
month  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  before  the  end  of  the  month  he  had  returned  all  the  lost 
cattle  except  sixty-seven,  by  count  simply.  I  was  not  present  when  the 
cattle  were  returned.  I  was  in  Washington  during  the  month  of  Octo 
ber  with  the  Cheyennes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  there  were  received 
three  hundred  and  thirty-three  cattle,  or  thereabouts,  for  which  no  new  re 
ceipts  were  given  to  Mr.  Bosler? 

A.  Not  being  present  at  that  time  I  cannot  say  that  I  know  it  of  my 
own  knowledge.  I  have  to  depend  upon  my  employes  who  were  carrying 
on  the  business  at  the  time. 

Q.  Who  were  present  at  the  time  the  cattle  wTere  returned  to  you? 

A.  Mr.  Appleton  at  that  time  wras  there  putting  up  the  agency  build 
ings,  and  1  left  him  in  charge  for  a  few7  days  until  his  son  arrived,  who  was 
my  clerk,  and  who  took  possession  of  the  agency  and  the  business  from 
that  time. 

Q.  Is  there  any  record  in  your  office  of  the  return  of  that  number  of 
the  stampeded  cattle! 

A.  I  don't  think  there  is  any  record  that  will  show  the  number,  ex 
cept  the  record  of  issue  of  those  who  issued  the  cattle. 

Q.  So  that  in  point  of  fact  Bosler  was  nowrhere  charged  in  your  books 
with  the  number  of  cattle  which  were  driven  back  to  his  herd,  nor 
credited  with  the  same  number  which  were  returned  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  made  the  issue  of  cattle  on  the  15th 
of  October  ? 

A.  I  think  not.  I  think  it  was  a  few  days  after,  just  when  I  was  at 
tempting  to  make  those  Indians  consent  to  let  Die  count  their  lodges 
It  was  at  the  time  they  took  me  down  to  the  agency.  I  was  about 
eight  miles  from  the  agency,  and  they  took  me  down  there.  A  portion 
of  the  Indians  wanted  to  drive  me  out  of  the  country,  but  a  portion  of 
them  stood  by  me  and  prevented  it. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  Mr.  Samuel  Walker  visited  the  agency  ? 

A,  I  was  absent  at  the  time. 

Q.  Has  no  record  been  made  of  cattle  which  were  issued  when  he  was 
here,  by  you  or  your  clerk  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  records  after  you  returned,  from  any  private 
accounts  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  B.  F.  Walters  testified  before  the  Indian  Committee  of  the  United 
States  House  of  Representatives,  that  he  heard  Dr.  Saville  say  he  gave 
the  receipts  some  days  in  advance  of  the  delivery  of  the  cattle,  and  as 
there  was  no  herd  at  the  agency  after  the  stampede  on  the  8th  of  Octo 
ber,  and  as  the  herd  at  that  date  after  the  delivery  to  the  agent  of  297 


413 

head  numbered  only  406,  according  to  the  chief  herder's  written  state 
ment,  which  I  hold,  it  is  clear  that  1,280  head  had  not  been  received  up 
to  and  including  October  8,  as  Bosler  swears.  It  is  equally  clear 
that  if  only  647  head  had  been  received,  two  issues  had  not  been  made, 
as  the  agent  says,  (page  23,)  of  267  head  and  360  head  on  the  1st  and 
8th  of  October,  respectively.  For,  if  so,  he  could  not  have  had  (after 
deducting  527  head,  issued  October  1  and  8,  from  647  received,  and 
eleven  head  on  hand  October  1,  total  658)  406  head  stampeded  on  the 
night  of  October  8,  as  there  would  have  been  only  131  head  left  after 
the  issues.  Do  you  know  what  the  facts  are  in  regard  to  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  remember  about  that  fact. 

Q.  Were  you  present  when  the  issue  of  October  8  was  made 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  I  was  present.  1  don't  remember  whether  I  made  the 
issue  myself  or  Mr,  Walters  made  it,  or  one  of  the  others;  sometimes  I 
would  have  the  butcher  make  the  issue,  or  one  of  the  other  men  when  I 
did  not  feel  able  to  go  down  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  the  number  given  here  is  the  exact  number  of  the 
cattle  stampeded  ?  Does  that  serve  to  refresh  your  recollection  of  the 
number  stampeded  !  Was  it  not  567  which  was  stampeded  ? 

A.  1  think  that  that  (567)  is  a  correct  statement.  It  was  taken  from 
the  records  and  gives  the  exact  number. 

Q.  From  your  own  knowledge  you  will  not  now  say  whether  that  567 
head  of  cattle  were  ever  returned  or  not  ? 

A.  No.  I  have  to  depend  upon  the  statement  of  my  employes,  and 
the  return  they  make  to  me.  1  have  nothing  but  their  records. 

Q.  You  say  you  were  not  present  and  you  cannot  say  that  the  567 
were  not  returned  ;  there  is  no  record  ? 

A.  I  have  nothing  except  the  statement  of  my  employes  and  the  re 
turns  which  1  have  made  to  Washington.  These  returns  are  vouched 
for  by  affidavits — some  of  them  at  least.  In  my  former  testimony  1  was 
in  error.  I  think  it  is  near  600  that  were  stampeded. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  There  are  some  parts  of  Professor  Marsh's  statement  which  I 
would  like  to  know  something  of  from  you.  He  states  that  J.  D.  Bevier, 
United  States  Indian  inspector,  in  his  report  of  October  21,  1874,  ex 
posed  a  fraudulent  contract  made  by  Dr.  Saville  with  his  father-in-law, 
Mr.  Appleton,  by  which  the  Government  would  have  been  the  loser. 
Will  you  please  explain  what  that  transaction  was. 

A.  It  was  in  the  fall,  getting  late  on  toward  cold  weather  ;  my  houses 
were  not  completed,  and  I  was  anxious  to  get  them  finished  for  the 
employes  and  myself  to  sleep  in  before  winter.  I  talked  to  the  car 
penters  at  the  agency  and  others  in  regard  to  finishing  the  buildings, 
and  finally  asked  Mr.  Appleton  to  make  an  estimate  of  what  it  would 
cost  to  finish  these  buildings ;  and  he  sat  down  and  made  an  estimate, 
and  proposed  to  do  the  work  on  these  buildings — to  build  slaughter 
house  and  corral,  himself — for  such  a  sum.  Well,  comparing  that  with 
what  I  had  done  before,  I  considered  it  a  reasonable  proposition,  and  1 
sent  the  proposals  on  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  stating  to 
him  the  urgency  of  having  the  work  done,  and  I  stated  that  whatever 
was  done  should  be  done  immediately.  And  the  Commissioner  approved 
the  proposals  of  Mr.  Appleton,  and  on  those  proposals,  with  the  approval 
of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  I  made  the  contract  with  Mr.  Ap 
pleton.  In  the  mean  time,  Dr.  Bevier  came  here,  and  he  considered  the 
price  for  the  work  too  high,  and  asked  me  to  suspend  the  work.  He 
wanted  me  to  modify  the  price,  and  I  told  him  I  would  do  no  such 


414 

thing.  I  had  passed  judgment  upoD  it,  and  I  considered  the  price  rea 
sonable  in  every  respect,  but  if  he  could  induce  Mr.  Appleton  to  change 
his  prices,  and  to  do  it  for  any  less,  I  was  perfectly  satisfied  ;  it  could 
make  no  difference  to  me  j  but  if  he  would  not  approve  the  contract,  I 
asked  him  to  suspend  the  work. 

Q.  Did  he  exercise  his  authority  to  suspend  the  work  ? 

A.  He  did  not,  but  he  had  a  talk  with  Mr.  Appleton  before  leaving 
the  agency,  and  I  understood  that  Mr.  Appleton  made  some  modifica 
tion  of  the  price,  which  met  the  approval  of  Dr.  Bevier ;  and  the  Doctor 
asked  me,  in  sending  the  contract,  to  send  it  through  him  ;  and  I  sat 
down  and  wrote  the  contract,  and  sent  it  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  through  the  Doctor. 

Q.  Did  you  make  known  to  the  Commissioner  what  the  price  of  the 
work  was  to  be  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  the  price  was  specified  on  each  kind  of  work. 

Q.  Can  you  now  recollect  what  it  cost  the  Government  to  erect  those 
buildings? 

A.  I  cannot  recollect  all  of  it  ;  most  of  it  was  for  finishing  buildings 
partly  erected  ;  for  instance,  making  and  laying  shingles  on  the  roof  at 
nine  dollars  a  thousand  for  making  and  laying  them  on  the  roof. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  that  change  in  the  proposed  plan,  after  Dr.  Bevier's  objection, 
appear  of  record  in  your  letter-book  ? 

A.  The  full  particulars  are  filed  in  the  Indian  Office,  in  my  correspond 
ence  with  that  Department. 

Q.  You  said  that  you  calculated  that  the  mill  would  not  saw  more 
than  fifteen  hundred  feet  of  lumber  a  day,  and  it  required  five  or  six 
men  to  saw  it,  and  that  was  the  reason  you  accepted  Mr.  Appleton's 
proposal ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  that  mill  now  saw  more  than  five  or  six  thousand  feet  a  day? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  never  could  saw  more  than  three  thousand  feet  a  day. 
It  could  not  average  three  thousand  since  it  has  been  there.  The  mill 
is  calculated  to  saw  that  much,  but  it  has  never  done  so  with  the  best 
material. 

Q.  How  many  "  squaw  men,"  popularly  so-called,  do  you  employ  at  the 
agency  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is  about  ten. 

Q.  Do  you  see  any  reason  why  a  white  man,  who  has  seen  fit  to 
marry  an  Indian  wife,  should  not  support  his  family  without  the  help  of 
the  Government? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  every  man  who  has  an  Indian  family, 
drawing  rations  from  your  agency,  should  not  be  discharged? 

A.  Well,  the  only  reason  is,  that  I  need  men  to  do  the  work,  and  those 
men  I  retain  there  are  useful. 

Q.  Are  not  all  the  men  you  employ  there  interested  to  obtain  all  they 
can  in  the  way  of  supplies  from  the  Government  ? 

A.  I  would  say  that  is  greatly  owing  to  the  individual  character  of  the 
men.  Their  families  draw  the  rations,  some  of  them,  and  they  live  with 
their  families,  and  receive  wages  when  employed  by  me. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  is  not  the  whole  matter  of  employing  that  class 
of  men  of  doubtful  expediency  1 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  it  is. 

Q.  Could  it  not  be  remedied    by  the  employment  of  white   men? 


415 

Could  you  not  get  white  men  from  the  States  that  would  perform  the 
work  which  they  do  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  the  experience  of  those  men  living  with  the  Indians 
has  been  a  matter  of  consideration  with  me.  I  have  brought  good  men 
here  from  the  States,  but  most  of  them  have  left  because  they  were  dis 
gusted. 

Q.  Do  not  most  of  these  men  assist  to  corrupt  and  demoralize  the 
Indian  women  ? 

A.  Many  of  them  act  just  as  the  Indians  do..  They  follow  the  Indian 
customs,  and  claim  the  right  to  marry  as  many  squaws  as  they  want  to. 

Q.  Now,  then,  will  not  a  white  man  marry  as  many  squaws  as  he 
can,  so  as  to  draw  rations  from  the  Government  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  will. 

Q.  Are  you  not  at  the  mercy  of  that  class  of  men  if  you  discharge 
them  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  not  every  agent  so  at  their  mercy  f 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  one  of  the  greatest  evils  connected  with  the  agency. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  and  influence  of  these  men  upon  the  Indians,  as 
affects  the  relations  of  the  Indians  to  the  Government  ? 

A.  The  effect  is  to  constantly  breed  dissatisfaction  with  the  Govern 
ment  among  the  Indians,  and  to  mislead  the  Indians  in  regard  to  their 
promises,  and  the  duties  of  the  Government  toward  them. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  Indian  ^agents  themselves  would  have 
auy  difficulty  in  discharging  the  duties  of  their  office  if  they  banished 
every  white  man  connected  with  the  agency  ? 

A.  1  think  it  would  be  very  hard  for  me  to  do  so  at  my  agency.  It 
might  be  done. 

Q.  I  notice  you  employ  several  of  them  as  interpreters.  Are  they 
employed  the  year  around  upon  a  salary  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  the  only  interpreter  I  have  there  that  I  can  rely  upon  is 
that  little  half-breed,  William  Garnet. 

Q.  Is  it  safe  to  rely  upon  the  interpretation  of  those  squaw-men  where 
their  own  interest  is  involved  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  generally.  I  don't  want  to  condemn  every  man  either. 
There  are  some  of  them  that,  so  far  as  I  have  been  able  to  judge,  have 
been  true,  but  many  of  them  have  not. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  would  be  the  effect  upon  the  temper  of  the  Indians  if  there 
was  an  order  expelling  from  the  reservation  all  these  squaw-men  ? 

A.  I  think  the  Indians  would  rebel  against  it  very  strongly,  at  least 
at  the  beginning.  I  have  had  a  great  deal  of  trouble  with  these 
Indians.  Red  Cloud  thought  that  I  should  discharge  every  man  that 
was  not  a  half-breed  or  a  squaw-man. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  was  not  lied  Cloud  instigated  to  make  that  re 
quest  by  the  squaw-men  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir;  one  man  I  had  evidence  enough  against  to  send  out  of 
the  country,  and  that  man  was  John  Nelson;  and  I  also  have  evidence 
of  some  others. 

Q.  There  is  some  evidence  that  the  females  of  the  Cheyenne  and 
Arapahoe  tribes,  more  particularly  the  Arapahoes,are  prostituted  by  the 
white  men  coming  to  live  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  agency.  Do  you 
understand  that  to  be  true  ? 

A.  Well,  that  is  just  the  common  report.  I  have  never  seen  anything 
of  it.  The  only  fact  I  have  got  of  that  kind  is  that  of  a  Sioux  Indian 


416 

coming  to  me,  and  saying  that  the  soldiers  came  to  his  tepee  while  he  was 
away  and  insulted  his  woman,  and  he  wished  me  to  write  a  letter 
for  him,  ordering  every  soldier  to  stay  away  from  his  tepee;  and  if  he 
did  not  he  would  shoot  him,  because  he  said  he  was  not  wanting-  any 
trouble,  but  he  would  shoot  any  man  that  would  not  stay  away. 

Q.  Have  you,  yourself,  ever  made  any  efforts  to  prevent  the  men 
employed  at  the  agency  from  holding  improper  intercourse  with  the 
Arapahoe  women  ? 

A.  I  have  not.     I  could  see  no  way  to  do  it  myself. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  matter  of  common  report  that  such  things  are  taking 
place  frequently  2 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  is  something  I  have  always  heard  from  the  Arapahoes. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  discharged  any  man  from  your  employ  who  was 
charged  with  that  offense? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  never  known  of  any  of  my  employes  being  charged. 
I  have  heard  of  it  being  done  by  the  soldiers. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Has  no  authentic  case  come  to  your  knowledge  of  such  improper 
intercourse  with  Indian  women  by  the  employes  of  the  agency,  directly 
or  indirectly  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  made  no  attempt  to  correct  these  evils  ? 

A.  Up  to  this  time  it  has  been  very  difficult  for  me  to  attempt  any 
thing  of  that  kind.  The  Indians  now  are  getting  into  a  state  that  some 
thing  can  be  d(5ne,  and  they  can  be  disciplined. 

Q.  Do  you  say  it  is  an  admitted  fact  that  such  things  have  taken  place 
at  the  agency  ? 

A.  Not  at  the  agency,  but  I  don't  know  what  the  men  may  do  when 
they  get  out  among  them. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  What  has  been  the  practical  difficulty  to  prevent  some  efforts  to  be 
made  to  remedy  this  evil  ? 

A.  It  was,  first,  the  wild  disposition  of  the  Indians.  A  great  deal  of 
the  time  while  I  have  been  there  a  man  could  not  go  out  alone  among 
the  Indians.  The  next  difficulty  arose  from  the  class  of  men  that  I  have 
been  obliged  to  employ  to  do  the  work.  I  cared  more  for  a  man  that 
could  stand  by  me  and  handle  a  pistol  than  I  cared  about  his  morals. 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  the  temper  of  the  Indians  was  such  as 
made  it  unsafe  for  you  to  attempt  to  break  up  such  practices  ?  Did  the 
Indians  favor  such  practices  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  they  did,  except  that  of  white  men  taking  In 
dian  wives ;  they  did  favor  that.  Among  the  Arapahoes  this  practice 
has  been  a  common  matter  for  years,  but  among  the  Sioux  it  has  not ; 
that  is,  I  don't  know  that  it  has  existed.  I  don't  know  of  anything  of 
this  kind  being  done  at  the  agency.  I  don't  know  the  practice  to  be 
common,  though  it  is  reported  to  have  been  so  for  fifteen  years. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  it  to  be  common  among  the  Arapahoes  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  it,  except  by  common  report. 

Q.  Is  it  the  common  report  that  the  practice  prevails  among  the  Ara 
pahoes  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  is. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  understand  that  the  Arapahoe  Indians  would  resent 
an  attempt  on  the  part  of  the  Indian  agent  to  put  an  end  to  this  prac 
tice  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


417 

Q.  Then  the  Indians  themselves  do  not  interpose  any  obstacle  in  the 
way  of  yonr  breaking  up  the  practice? 

A.  They  do. 

Q.  What  obstacle  do  they  interpose  ? 

A.  Any  change  or  interference  with  the  men  who  live  among  them, 
or  in  general  terms,  any  change  of  affairs  which  affects  them. 

Q.  The  men  we  speak  of  don't  live  among  them;  it  is  the  employes  oi 
the  agency  we  are  speaking  about. 

A.  I  don't  believe  that  the  employes  are  generally  guilty  of  such  prac 
tices  of  commerce  with  the  Indian  women. 

Q.  Do  you  believe,  then,  that  that  commerce  is  confined  to  the  white 
men  who  live  among  the  Indians  entirely  J? 

A.  I  suppose  not  entirely,  but  men  may  come  in  there.  There  are 
people  coming  in  and  traveling  through  all  the  time,  and  there  are  the 
soldiers  who  are  stationed  there  ;  they  all  may  do  so.  I  don't  know  of 
it.  I  don't  know  whether  any  person  has  ever  been  in  that  camp. 
There  is  a  common  report  that  such  is  the  case.  I  have  had  no  specific 
information  or  charges  against  any  person.  I  never  heard  of  any  one 
individual  doing  so,  except  the  case  of  the  Sioux  speaking  of  the  sol 
diers.  1  don't  believe  anything  about  it,  because  I  don't  know  anything 
about  it.  If  it  is  common  it  is  not  confined  to  those  who  live  among 
them,  but  to  the  teamsters  and  people  who  come  with  the  trains  and 
the  soldiers  and  persons  of  that  kind.  The  accusations  have  not  been 
brought  against  any  persons,  except  the  general  report  that  the  Arapa- 
hoe  women  are  prostitutes,  and  that  is  all  I  know  of  it. 

Q.  And  you  have  taken  no  steps  to  ascertain  with  whom  that  prosti 
tution  is  carried  on  ?  f 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 

Q.  3srow,  Doctor,  you  say  another  difficulty  in  your  way  of  investigat 
ing  this  matter  is  that  you  cannot  dispense  with  the  services  of  some  of 
your  employes  ? 

A.  That  has  been  the  case  for  the  last  two  years.  I  speak  not  of  any 
particular  man,  but  of  the  class  of  men  I  have  had  to  employ  there. 

Q.  But  you  say  you  don't  believe  your  employes  practice  that  inter 
course  1 

A.  Well,  what  I  meant  to  say  is  that  none  of  them  are  particularly 
addicted  to  it.  They  may  practice  it  possibly  without  my  knowing  it. 

Q.  Do  you  not  believe  that  your  employes  practice  that  intercourse  ? 

A.  I  say  that  I  don't  believe  they  do. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  employes  do  not  practice  that  intercourse  themselves, 
then  the  indispensability  of  their  services  does  not  present  an  obstacle 
to  your  breaking  it  ? 

A.  The  necessity  for  employing  these  men  is  an  obstacle,  not  because 
they  practice  that  intercourse,  but  because  they  will  not  aid  in  investi 
gating  and  exposing  the  practice. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  squaw-men  have  you  in  your  employ  ? 

A.  Ten,  I  believe. 

(^.  How  are  they  employed  ?    In  what  capacity  ? 

A.  Wrell,  one  man  that  you  met  is  called  a  squaw-man,  and  is  my  clerk ; 
that  is,  he  married  a  half-breed ;  the  next  is  the  butcher  and  the  sawyer  ; 
the  next  are  the  two  herders,  the  blacksmith,  and  one  interpreter  j  that 
is  all  I  can  think  of. 

Q.  Have  you  the  authority  of  any  law  for  the  employment  of  all  these 
persons  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  the  authority  only  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior.  I  be- 
27  I  F 


418 

lieve  there  is  no  law  prescribing  them  except  the  orders  and  regulations 

of  the  Department. 

»  Q.  Out  of  what  fund  are  those  employes  paid  1 

I  f  A.  They  are  paid  out  of  different  funds  ;  part  of  them  out  of  the  fund 

for  employes  ;  another  out  of  the  fund  appropriated  for  interpreter  or 

clerk,  and  some  others  are  paid  from  the  incidental  fund ;  and  two  are 

now  paid  out  of  the  beneficial  fund.     They  are  employed  for  the  purpose 

of  teaching  the  Indians,  and  aiding  them  in  commencing  their  work  of 

farming,  and  showing  them  how  to  plow.    They  have  been  employed  for 

two  months. 

Q.  Have  you  a  fund  or  appropriation  made  distinctively  for  employes? 

A.  No,  sir.  In  transmitting  funds  to  me  the  Interior  Department  in 
structs  me  as  to  what  persons  or  employes  are  to  be  paid.  I  send  a  report 
of  every  change  of  employes  which  I  make.  I  am  not  certain  whether 
the  law  in  making  appropriations  uses  the  expression  "employes"  or 
not,  but  it  is  used  by  the  Interior  Department  in  their  instructions  to 
me,  and  I  keep  the  account  under  that  head. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Does  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  in  transmitting  that  amount, 
indicate  the  amount  of  salary  to  be  paid  to  each  employe  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  salary  do  you  pay  your  clerk  ? 

A.  He  was  paid  $1,200  per  annum  until  the  1st  of  July;  since  that 
time  he  has  been  getting  $1,000. 

Q.  Is  that  amount  allowed  from  your  own  judgment  of  his  services,  or 
does  it  come  from  any  order  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  It  comes  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  your  present  clerk  as  a  competent  clerk  ? 

A.  Not  such  a  one  as  I  would  like.  I  would  like  to  have  a  man  more 
competent  to  keep  accounts— quicker  and  more  accurate. 

Q.  Ought  not  that  salary  of  $1,000  enable  you  to  employ  a  competent 
and  skilful  clerk  at  the  agency? 

A.  I  think  not,  but  I  propose  to  try. 
By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  You  say  that  clerk  is  paid  out  of  the  incidental  fund  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  an  incidental  fund  appropriated  by  law? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  is  by  law  for  the  incidental  expenses  of  differ 
ent  agencies. 

Q.  Have  you  a  fund  appropriated  for  the  incidental  expenses  of  your 
agency? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  my  recollection. 

Q.  Who  are  the  men  you  say  are  paid  out  of  the  beneficial  fund  ? 

A.  There  are  two  men  who,  I  understand,  are  paid  out  of  the  benefi 
cial  fund  ;  they  are  those  men  who  were  employed  to  assist  the  Indians 
this  spring  in  their  work,  and  two  of  them  are  still  employed  in  assist 
ing  them  in  haying. 

Q.  You  say  you  understood  they  are  paid  out  of  the  beneficial  fund  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  pay  them  yourself,  do  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  sent  to  me  in  that  way  for  beneficial  purposes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  that  appropriation  was  last  year  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  a  question  or  two  about  that  saw-mill.  Do  I  un 
derstand  you  to  say' that  it  will  not  cut  more  than  3,000  feet  per  day  ? 


419 

A.  No,  sir;  it  will  not,  under  the  most  favorable  chcumstances,  cut 
more  than  that  much. 

Q.  What  was  the  cost  of  the  mill  ? 

A.  I  don't  know.    It  was  bought  before  I  went  there. 

Q.  What  is  the  size  of  the  engine  ? 

A.  It  is  a  fifteen-horse-power. 

Q.  What  are  the  dimensions  of  the  cylinder  and  the  length  of  the 
stroke  ? 

A.  It  is  a  "  Blandy  "  fifteen-horse-power  portable  saw-mill. 

Q.  How  large  a  saw  do  you  run  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is  a  32  or  34  inch  saw. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  in  the  mill  ? 

A.  It  requires  six  men  in  the  mill,  including  the  engineer,  and  usually 
one  man  for  stacking  lumber  and  in  scaling  and  getting  logs  on  the 
ways. 

Q.  Can  you  describe  what  particular  labor  those  different  men  per 
form? 

A.  Well,  one  is  the  engineer,  one  is  a  sawyer  and  saw-setter,  another 
I  think  they  call  the  sealer,  another  wheels  the  sawdust,  another  man 
carries  the  lumber  to  the  mill,  and  there  is  another  man  employed  in 
snaking  the  logs  and  getting  them  on  the  ways  and  stacking  lumber. 

Q.  When  did  you  say  you  applied  for  this  permission  to  purchase 
oxen,  cows,  and  wagons  for  the  use  of  the  Indians  to  engage  in  agri 
culture  ? 

A.  It  was  last  winter  some  time.  I  don't  remember  the  date  without 
referring  to  my  letter-book.  It  was  some  time  before  the  perinisson  was 
given  to  purchase  them. 

Q.  Well,  when  was  that  permission  given? 

A.  I  don't  remember  now. 

Q.  When  did  you  make  the  purchases  of  Mr.  McCann  ? 

A.  I  had  one  paper  which  if  I  could  get  I  would  make  some  calcula 
tion,  and  could  tell  you,  but  I  can't  remember  dates.  It  was  before 
Professor  Marsh  was  here. 

Q.  Well,  what  time  in  fact  did  you  get  the  oxen? 

A.  I  got  the  oxen  in  September  or  October.  The  permission  was 
granted  some  time  in  the  latter  part  of  the  winter  or  spring  of  1874. 
Then  I  had  to  purchase  other  things  to  get  those  Indians  to  work  in  the 
spring,  and  when  the  permission  came  it  was  very  late  in  the  spring, 
and  I  was  in  a  hurry  to  get  some  cattle  for  the  purpose  of  breaking  some 
ground  for  the  Indians,  and  for  this  purpose  the  contract  was  made ; 
and  when  we  failed  to  get  the  cattle,  I  used  the  agency  team  to  break 
some  ground  for  the  Indians.  The  Indians  were  very  much  dissatisfied 
and  discontented  in  not  getting  the  oxen  and  wagons,  and  accused  me 
of  making  promises  which  I  did  not  fulfill,  and  I  then  made  the  appli 
cation  to  the  Department.  I  don't  remember  the  date.  I  purchased 
those  oxen  and  wagons,  as  I  stated,  in  open  market.  They  were  pur 
chased  and  brought  to  the  agency,  I  think,  in  the  latter  part  of  Septem 
ber  or  the  first  of  October.  I  can't  place  the  dates.  The  wagons  were 
brought  at  the  same  time.  There  were  twenty  yoke  of  oxen  and  ten 
wagons. 

Q.  Now,  to  whom  were  these  oxen  delivered  ? 
A.  They  were  delivered  to  me. 
Q.  To  whom  did  you  deliver  them  ? 

A.  I  delivered  them  to  the  Indians  ;  part  of  them  I  kept  on  the  range 
with  the  herd  in  the  winter. 

Q.  How  many  pairs  of  those  oxen  did  you  deliver  to  the  Indians  ? 


420 

A.  I  think  I  delivered  at  different  times  sixteen  pairs.  Four  pairs 
either  died  in  the  storms  of  that  winter,  were  killed  by  the  falling  in  of 
a  bank,  or  were  killed  by  the  Indians.  Two  of  them  'were  lying  upon  a 
high  bank,  and  another  one  went  on  top  and  fell  down  and  killed  two  of 
them. 

Q.  To  which  of  the  Indians  did  you  deliver  the  sixteen  pairs  of  oxen  1 

A.  To  different  Indians.  I  don't  remember  their  names.  I  gave  Big 
Foot  one  pair.  Yellow  Hair  and  his  party  altogether  got  five  pairs.  I 
don't  remember  the  names  of  the  men  in  his  party.  I  gave  Grass  one 
pair  and  I  gave  Ked  Dog  one  pair. 

Q.  When  did  you  deliver  those  oxen  to  those  Indians  ? 

A.  I  delivered  them  at  different  times,  from  the  time  they  were  received 
on  until  winter  ;  while  some  of  them  that  were  kept  over  I  delivered  this 
spring. 

Q.  What  evidence  did  you  take  of  the  delivery  of  those  oxen  ? 

A.  I  took  the  receipts  of  the  Indians  and  the  certificates  or  affidavits 
of  those  who  witnessed  the  delivery. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  those  receipts  and  affidavits  1 

A.  I  sent  them  to  Washington. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Those  oxen,  I  understand,  have  been  purchased  to  enable  the 
Indians  to  carry  on  the  business  of  agriculture  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  Big  Foot's  farm  which  he  is  carrying  on  now  ? 

A.  It  is  on  the  Little  White  Clay  River,  about  three  miles  from  the 
agency. 

Q.  How  much  of  an  inclosure  has  he  ? 

A.  Not  a  great  deal;  about  three  or  four  or  five  acres  inclosed.  It 
was  inclosed  last  spring.  He  has  built  all  the  inclosure. 

Q.  Did  he  plow  it  with  the  oxen  which  you  let  him  have  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  5  I  believe  he  did. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  him  work  the  cattle'? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  has  become%of  the  oxen  ? 

A.  He  has  them  still. 

Q.  You  know  where  they  are  ? 

A.  I  don't,  unless  1  went  to  look  on  the  range.  He  was  using  them 
when  I  saw  them  last. 

Q.  What  was  he  doing? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  lie  was  doing. 

Q.  Did  five  of  Yellow  Hair's  band  take  farms? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  are  those  forms  located  ? 

A.  They  were  on  the  creek,  twelve  miles  from  the  agency. 

Q.  How  large  were  the  farms  1 

A.  Well,  there  were  one  hundred  and  sixty  acres.  That  is  to  say, 
there  were  no  farms  laid  off  for  them  separately ;  there  never  has  been. 
They  all  moved  upon  the  creek  for  the  purpose  of  making  a  start  in 
agriculture  and  farming,  and  they  went  to  work  and  broke  up  about 
thirty  acres  and  put  it  under  cuftivatian.  They  are  all  together.  The 
difficulties  in  getting  these  Indians  to  go  to  farming  is  to  get  them  sep 
arated.  They  all  go  together. 

Q.  When  were  those  thirty  acres  broken  up  ? 

A.  Part  was  broken  up,  but  not  altogether,  last  summer,  and  part 
last  spring. 


421 

Q.  How  much  was  broken  up  last  summer? 

A.  I  don't  remember,  but  think  about  half  of  it. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  raised  on  that  ground  last  year? 

A.  Only  a  small  quantity  of  corn  and  pumpkins. 

Q.  About  how  much,  Doctor  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  exactly  how  much.  A  portion  of  their  crop  failed 
from  the  drought  and  was  no  good.  Part  of  it  grew  up,  but  did  not  get 
ripe,  and  they  used  it  green,  not  waiting  for  it  to  mature. 

Q.  How  was  that  ground  broken  ? 

A.  Part  of  it  was  broken  by  my  team,  and  part  was  broken  by  some 
men  who  live  among  the  Indians  and  had  teams. 

Q.  How  was  the  balance  that  was  done  this  year  ? 

A.  It  was  broken  by  the  teams  given  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  Who  furnished  the  plows  with  which  this  breaking  was  done  ? 

A.  The  Government. 

Q.  When  were  those  plows  furnished  ? 

A.  Last  spring. 

Q.  How  many  plows  did  Yellow  Hair's  party  have? 

A.  I  only  gave  them  the  use  of  the  plows,  as  they  were  breaking  it 
up.  I  purchased  six  plows,  and  retained  them  in  my  custody. 

Q.  Who  drove  the  oxen  and  held  the  plows  at  this  breaking  last 
spring  ? 

A.  I  was  away  at  Washington  with  a  delegation  of  Indians,  and  don't 
know.  There  were  four  men  employed  by  me  to  endeavor  to  get  the 
Indians  to  work,  and  to  teach  them  to  drive  oxen  and  hold  a  plow,  but 
who  drove  I  did  not  see  ;  I  left  that  with  the  farmer.  The  grasshoppers 
almost  destroyed  all  their  crops  this  year. 

Q.  Are  those  five  pairs  of  oxen  which  were  given  to  Yellow  Hair's 
party  still  in  existence  ? 

A.  The  five  pairs  given  to  Yellow  Hair's  party  last  fall  were  turned 
over  to  Todd  Kandali  to  keep  during  the  winter.  This  spring 
Yellow  Hair's  party  divided.  Frank  Sal  way  got  for  Yellow  Hair  a  part 
of  the  oxen  and  the  others  were  gotten  by  Yellow  Hair's  party,  as  I  un 
derstand,  if  they  are  still  in  existence.  They  may  have  died  during  the 
winter.  Todd  Kandali  is  a  relation  of  Yellow  Hair's — that  is,  his  wife  is. 
Frank  Salway  lives  at  the  agency.  He  was  out  cutting  hay  for  the 
agency  while  the  commission  was  there. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  sixteen  pairs  of  oxen  which  were  delivered  to 
the  Indians  last  fall  do  you  know  to  be  in  existence  now  ? 

A.  I  only  know  just  now,  by  having  questioned  the  Indians  about 
them  the  other  day,  of  seven  pairs.  And  when  I  left  the  agency  I 
ordered  the  clerk  to  go  and  hunt  up  all  those  oxen  and  see  where  they 
are. 

Q.  Has  these  thirty  acres  which  you  say  were  plowed  by  Yellow  Hair's 
band  been  inclosed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  what  kind  of  a  fence  ? 

A.  Well,  by  a  bowlder  fence  ;  not  a  very  substantial  fence,  but  such  as 
we  have  there;  it  was  inclosed  by  the  Indians  themselves  and  a  man 
who  assisted  them. 

Q.  Who  was  that  man  ? 

A.  It  was  a  man  named  Bridgeman. 

Q.  Who  employed  him  i 

A.  I  employed  him. 

Q.  Out  of  what  fund  did  you  pay  him  ? 
A.  Out  of  the  beneficial  fund. 


422 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  deliver  the  ten  wagons  ? 

A.  I  delivered  them- to  different  Indians,  in  the  same  way  I  did  the 
oxen. 

Q.  Can  you  name  any  of  the  Indians? 

A.  Most  of  them  to  whom  I  gave  the  cattle;  Yellow  Hair,  one  ;  Red 
Dog,  one;  Big  Foot,  Grass,  and  Day,  got  one  together.  I  don't  re 
member  the  other  names  now. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  use  did  they  make  of  them  ? 

A.  Well,  they  used  them  in  coming  down  to  the  agency  and  for  haul 
ing  wood,  and  for  coming  to  the  agency  for  their  rations,  and  in  moving 
about  generally.  I  find  the  use  of  oxen  by  the  Indians  to  be  a  failure. 
And  they  have  got  harness  to  use  wagons  with  their  ponies,  and  I  have 
recommended  that  no  more  oxen  be  given  them,  but  that  wagons  and 
harness  be  given  instead. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Doctor,  since  you  were  compelled  by  the  treaty  to  give  oxen  and 
wagons  to  those  Indians  to  aid  them  in  farming,  why  did  you  not  give 
cows  ? 

A.  Well,  I  thought  we  would  try  the  experiment  of  using  the  oxen 
and  wagons  first,  and  if  they  used  those  we  would  give  the  cows  after 
ward.  And  another  reason  was  the  difficulty  of  keeping  cows  during 
the  winter. 

Q.'  Now,  I  understand  that,  having  failed  to  get  oxen  for  the  Indians, 
or  in  getting  them  in  1874,  you  did  the  breaking  for  these  farms  with 
the  agency  team ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  the  agency  team  consist  of? 

A.  Mules. 

Q.  How  many  ? 

A.  There  are  twelve  mules. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  owned  that  team  ;  that  is,  the  agency  team  f 

A.  Most  of  them  were  transferred  to  me  by  Dr.  Daniels  ;  all  but  four. 
Those  four  I  purchased  myself  last  summer. 

Q.  Eight  you  received  from  Dr.  Daniels  and  four  yon  purchased  your 
self  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  same  eight  mules  you  received  from  Dr.  Daniels  ^ 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  use  do  you  put  those  mules  to  ! 

A.  I  put  them  to  harness  at  the  agency  in  hauling,  generally  about 
the  mill,  and  in  the  spring  plowing  ground  about  the  agency  for  a 
garden. 

Q.  Out  of  what  fund  did  you  pay  for  those  four  mules  ? 

A.  1  paid  for  them  out  of  the  fund  I  know  as  the  incidental  fund. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  connection,  Doctor,  had  Todd  Randall  with  Big  Foot  relative 
to  his  pair  of  oxen,  or  in  what  transaction  are  those  two  connected  1 

A.  I  don't  know  of  any  he  had  with  Big  Foot. 

Q.  Did  not  Big  Foot  last  winter  turn  over  his  oxen  to  Todd  Randall  ? 

A.  If  he  did,  I  did  not  know  it. 

Q.  Did  not  Big  Foot  state  to  you  a  week  or  two  ago  that  he  had 
turned  over  his  oxen  to  Todd  Randall  to  keep  for  the  winter,  but  had 
not  received  them  back  again  ? 


423 

A.  Xo,  sir  5  it  was  not  Big  Foot,  it  was  Yellow  Hair  that  said  that  to 
me. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Has  Todd  Randall  ever  returned  the  cattle  he  received  from 
Yellow  Hair's  band  1 

A.  Todd  Randall  says  that  he  turned  them  over,  Avith  his  own  oxen, 
all  to  Rooks  and  Bowman,  to  keep  through  the  winter.  In  the  spring 
I  directed  the  farmer  to  see  that  those  oxen  were  delivered  over  to 
the  Indians  to  work.  Two  pairs  of  them  I  know  were  delivered  to 
Frank  Sal  way  according  to  my  orders,  and  the  other  three  pairs  I  sup 
posed  had  been  received  by  those  men,  as  they  had  never  said  anything 
more  to  me  until  Yellow  Hair  spoke  to  me  about  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.    Has  not  Yellow  Hair  recently  complained  to  you  about  these 
cattle  having  never  been  returned  to  him  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Why  did  you  order  two  pairs  of  the  oxen  which  belonged  to  Yellow 
Hair's  band  to  be  delivered  to  Frank  Salway  ? 

A.  Yellow  Hair  with  some  others  had  gone  with  Frank  Salway  to 
commence  farming,  and  the  two  pairs  of  oxen  which  belonged  to  them  I 
ordered  to  be  delivered  over  to  Salway. 

Q.  Did  you  employ  Salway  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  did  during  the  spring.     He  is  not  employed  now. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  you  report  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  all  the  prop 
erty  arid  effects  belonging  to  the  Government  or  to  the  agency  at  that 
point  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  did. 

Q.  Is  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  aware  that  you  have  twelve 
mules  at  that  place  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  carriages  have  you  of  all  sorts  at  the  agency  I 

A.  Four. 

Q.  Describe  their  different  character. 

A.  There  are  two  wagons,  one  ambulance,  and  one  spring  hunting- 
wagon. 

Q.  Are  there  any  horses  at  the  agency  belonging  to  the  Govern 
ment? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  ? 

A.  Ten. 

Q.  What  are  they  employed  at  ? 

A.  They  are  employed  in  herding  cattle  and  in  riding  about  the 
reservation  and  the  agency  on  business  connected  with  the  agency. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Out  of  what  fund  are  these  horses  and  wagons  paid  for  ? 

A.  They  were  paid  for  out  of  a  fund  sent  me  for  that  purpose.  I  put 
them  on  my  books  as  incidental  funds.  I  never  purchase  anything 
until  I  get  permission  from  the  Department.  I  have  to  state  the  price 
of  everything,  and  it  is  then  passed  upon  by  the  Commissioner,  and 
funds  transmitted  to  me  for  the  purpose. 


424 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Don't  you  think  the  number  of  horses  and  mules  could  be  greatly 
economized? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  my  purpose  to  sell  four  of  those  mules  ;  and  there 
is  one  horse  that  might  be  dispensed  with.  He  has  been  crippled  in 
herding.  Horses  are  used  up  very  rapidly  in  that  business. 

Q.  Is  there  sufficient  work  at  an  agency  like  yours  to  employ  ten 
horses  and  twelve  mules  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  but  there  is  work  enough  to  employ  eight  mules  and  eight 
or  nine  horses.  I  have  to  have  horses  for  many  purposes.  The  farmer 
has  to  have  a  horse  all  the  time,  and  I  have  to  send  my  men  all  around 
the  agency  for  miles. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Tuesday,  August  24,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 

The  examination  of  Dr.  J.  J.  SAVILLE  was  resumed. 

Dr.  SAVILLE.  I  want  to  offer  a  little  excuse  for  myself  yesterday.  I 
am  subject  to  nervous  spells  and  sick  headache,  and  I  was  suffering  from 
it  yesterday.  I  would  like  to  correct  one  or  two  things  which  I  said 
yesterday,  which  I  find,  upon  thinking  about,  I  can  clear  up  a  little.  I 
want  to  call  your  attention  to  the  statement  of  Mr.  Walters  in  regard 
to  my  books  being  made  up  from  memoranda  in  my  pockets.  I  wish 
to  correct  my  answers  in  regard  to  this,  and  also  about  the  contract  with 
Mr.  McCaun  for  the  wagons,  horses,  and  oxen,  &c.  There  was  no  con 
tract  made  with  Mr.  McCann.  I  did  not  advertise  for  bids,  for  the  rea 
son  I  had  made  inquiries  upon  the  price  of  oxen  in  Missouri  and  Iowa, 
and  I  came  here  and  saw  the  oxen,  or  a  part  of  them,  that  wer#  to  be 
furnished,  and  had  a  description  of  the  cows,  and  understood  that  the 
contract  for  them  was  completed,  or  would  be  completed  in  a  short  time, 
and  I  went  to  the  agency  and  then  wrote  the  letter  to  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  in  which  I  spoke  of  having  purchased  those  things 
just  as  a  merchant  would  speak  of  having  purchased  goods  after  having 
ordered  them  and  had  not  received  them.  In  regard  to  charges  of  Mr. 
Walters,  I  will  say  that  they  were  investigated  by  the  commission  ot 
which  Bishop  Hare  was  chairman,  and  the  evidence  is  now  on  file  in 
the  Indian  Office,  and  can  be  seen  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  what  goods,  if  any,  are  weighed  at  the  agency 
on  their  arrival  in  the  trains '? 

A.  We  always  weigh  bacon  and  corn  and  flour  and  coffee.  Goods 
that  are  put  up  in  packages  and  inspected  by  the  inspector,  and  the 
weights  marked  on  the  package,  we  usually  take  as  they  are  marked, 
unless  they  show  evidence  of  having  been  broken,  such  as  annuity  goods. 
We  take  the  weight  of  sugar  and  tobacco. 

Q.  In  1873  did  you  pursue  the  same  or  a  different  system  ? 

A.  In  1873  we  did  the  same,  except  we  were  not  so  careful  in  regard 
to  flour.  It  came  in  one-hundred-pound  sacks,  and  we  did  not  weigh 
it,  and  they  drew  it  at  the  wagon,  unless  there  was  some  appearance  of 
it  having  been  broken  open.  Now  we  weigh  it  all. 

Q.  Had  you  any  idea  that  flour  was  coming  in  short  weight  designed 
to  pass  for  full  weight  $ 


425 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  ascertained  that  flour  was  coiniug  to  the  agency  in 
short  weight.  I  know  no  reason  for  it. 

Q.  Did  that  first  happen,  as  far  as  you  know,  under  the  Martin  con 
tract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  flour  coming  in  short  weight  to  the 
agency  except  that  of  the  Martin  contract  I 

A.  No,  sir ;  1  think  not. 

Q.  Has  ever  any  flour  of  short  weight  been  received  at  your  agency 
and  counted  as  oue-hundr«d-pound  sacks? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not. 

Q.  Who  first  made  known  to  you,  or  where  did  you  first  get  the  in 
formation,  that  flour  was  coming,  under  the  Martin  contract,  in  eighty- 
eight-pound  sacks  ? 

A.  Mr.  Palmer,  the  store  keeper  here  at  Cheyenne,  first  called  my  at 
tention  to  the  fact.  I  don't  kuowr  whether  he  first  detected  it  by  weigh 
ing  it  or  not. 

Q.  Then,  so  far  as  you  know,  was  not  that  flour  designed  to  pass  for 
one-hundred-pound  sacks? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Did  the  contractor,  or  any  of  the  employes,  give  you  to  under 
stand  that  he  was  shipping  flour  of  short  weights  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  first  learned  of  this  short  weight  what  did  you  do  ? 

A.  I  gave  orders  to  the  store-keeper  to  receive  no  flour  in  less  than 
one-hundred-pound  sacks  without  orders  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  to  do  so,  and  directed  the  store-keeper  to  communicate  to  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  which  he  did,  and  the  Commissioner 
wrote  him  a  letter  which  stated  that  it  made  no  difference,  provided  the 
weight  of  the  flour  was  certified  to  by  the  inspector. 

Q.  Was  that  at  the  time  that  Mr.  Long  was  first  appointed  inspector? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Major  Long  was  the  inspector  then. 

Q.  Prior  to  the  appointment  as  inspector  of  Major  Long,  did  not  a 
large  portion  of  that  flour  pass  without  being  noticed  by  anybody  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  portion  of  that  flour  was  received  at 
your  agency  as  one-huudred-pound  sacks  before  the  fraud  was  detected  ? 

A.  I  do  not ;  I  have  no  reason  to  suppose  so.  The  last  car-loads,  the 
first  that  was  received  there,  was  sent  up  billed  at  so  many  sacks  of 
one  hundred  pounds,  and  there  were  two  or  three  sacks  put  in  over 
the  count,  so  that  the  weight  was  correct,  but  the  count  was  over.  I 
received  none  as  one-hundred-pound  sacks,  unless  it  was  received  by 
the  clerk  without  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  that  all  goods,  except  those  like  sugar,  and  pack 
ages  of  dry  goods  and  tobacco,  have  been  weighed  by  you  on  their  ar 
rival  at  the  agency  before  your  receipt  was  given  to  the  contractor  for 
transportation? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  method  of  keeping  the  beef-account,  between  yourself  and 
Mr.  Bosler,  existed  in  the  year  1873  ?  1  would  like  to  have  you  state 
particularly  all  the  books  that  were  kept  and  the  whole  process. 

A.  There  was  only  one  book  kept  by  me  in  which  I  entered  the  beef 
received  as  receipted  for  in  the  office  ;  it  was  the  book  of  gross  weights 
and  numbers. 

Q.  Was  there  a  period  in  October  or  November,  1873,  when  you  had 
no  such  account  ? 


426 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  stated  by  Mr.  Walker  that  neither  you  nor  your  clerk  could 
give  the  amount  of  cattle  or  goods  received  without  calling  upon  George 
M.  Bosler. 

A.  I  remember  the  charges.  I  never  called  upon  Mr.  Bosler  for  such 
things.  I  never  saw  Mr.  Walker.  Frank  Appleton  was  my  clerk  at 
that  time  ;  he  was  killed  afterward  by  the  Indians. 

Q.  What  was  your  manner  of  keeping  account  of  the  beef  issued 
about  the  time  he  was  there  ? 

A.  I  made  up  a  list,  and  issued  on  this  a  certain  number  of  cattle, 
and  there  were  a  certain  number  issued  on  orders  to  Indians  that  were 
camped  a  distance  from  the  agency,  and  the  entry  in  the  book  was 
made  up  from  this  memorandum.  The  list  and  the  orders  before  each 
issue  was  made  up  in  the  whole,  without  keeping  in  detail  the  number 
of  head  that  were  issued,  during  the  eight  or  ten  days,  at  different  times. 
I  will  furnish  you  with  a  full  transcript  of  beef  issued  by  me  in  1873, 
and  also  a  transcript  of  beef  issued  since  I  took  charge  of  the  agency. 

Q.  Have  you  the  record  which  Appleton  himself  made a? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  he  may  have  written  upon  it. 

Q.  Has  that  book  been  changed  or  altered  in  any  respect  since  Walk 
er's  report u? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  different  entries  in  that  book  ! 

A.  No  entries  have  been  made  since  the  time  Appleton  was  there 
which  apply  to  the  time  he  was  there. 

Q.  Is  any  permanent  record  kept  of  the  supplies  issued  to  each  band 
of  Indians  or  each  head  man  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  determine  the  amount  of  supplies  which  you  issue  on 
any  given  day  ? 

A.  If  I  have  a  full  supply  of  rations  on  hand,  I  make  up  a  full  ration 
of  each  kind  for  each  Indian.  If  I  am  short  of  any  article,  I  divide  it 
pro  rata  among  all  the  Indians ;  then,  on  issue-day,  as  the  tickets  are 
brought  in,  the  goods  are  issued  according  to  that  plan  and  a  record 
made  up  at  the  end  of  the  day's  issue.  I  ligure  up  the  number  of  ra 
tions  of  each  article  issued  and  keep  a  record  of  that.  That  is  the  only 
means  I  have  for  determining  the  balance  of  goods  on  hand  or  of  the 
amount  issued. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  On  a  previous  examination  you  have  testified  that  you  have  never 
made  any  over-issues  to  cover  back  deficiencies  ? 

A.  Not  of  rations ;  I  have  of  beef. 

Q.  It  follows,  then,  that  all  deficiencies  of  that  kind  are  permanent 
losses  to  the  Indians  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Doctor,  I  want  to  inquire  of  you  if  you  are  able  to  state  what 
was  the  number  of  children  within  three  miles  of  the  agency  between 
the  ages  of  eight  and  eighteen  $ 

A.  I  could  not  tell  without  seeing  the  lists. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  made  any  effort  while  you  were  there  to  establish 
schools  for  the  education  of  the  Indian  children  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  efforts,  and  with  what  success1? 

A.  I  have  all  the  lumber  sawed  for  a  school-house.     It  is  not  my  duty 


427 

to  establish  schools  ;  the  missionary  board  establishes  the  schools  and 
employs  the  teachers,  and  the  Department  furnishes  the  school-house 
and  a  teacher.  I  only  carry  out  the  orders  of  the  Department  with 
regard  to  these  matters.  I  have  received  orders  to  build  a  school-house, 
and  have  the  lumber  sawed  out  ready  to  erect  the  school-house,  and 
have  received  a  copy  of  a  contract  between  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  and  Bishop  Hare,  by  which  he  is  to  furnish  a  teacher  for  the 
school.  Bishop  Hare  is  to  perform  a  certain  part  in  the  establishment 
of  a  school,  and  the  Commissioner  is  to  furnish  that  which  the  Govern 
ment  agrees,  which  is  to  build  the  school-house,  pay  the  teacher,  and 
give  a  ration  of  food  a  day  for  each  child  attending  the  school,  which 
is  to  be  delivered  over  in  bulk  to  Bishop  Hare  or  his  agent. 

Q.  When  do  you  calculate  to  be  able  to  have  that  school-house 
erected  and  the  school  established  ? 

A.  I  can  have  it  up  in  four  or  five  weeks  ;  just  as  soon  as  I  get  time. 

Q.  Who  do  you  look  to  for  the  selection  of  a  teacher? 

A.  To  Bishop  Hare  and  the  board  of  which  he  is  a  member. 

Q.  Does  the  Government  make  airy  appropriation  yearly  for  the 
teacher  ? 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  What  are  the  terms  of  the  contract  between  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  and  Bishop  Hare  I 

A.  Well,  I  looked  over  it  rather  casually.  I  can  remember  only  the 
facts  which  I  have  told  you — that  the  rations  are  to  be  delivered  for 
the  number  of  children  attending  the  school.  The  teacher  is  to  be  sup 
plied  with  certain  books,  I  think,  by  the  Government.  There  is  a  copy 
of  the  contract  on  file  in  my  office,  and  you  can  see  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  know  whether,  in  the  delivery  of  beef  or  other  sup 
plies,  you  have  made  any  distinction  between  chiefs  and  head  men  in 
the  amount  of  their  portion  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  chiefs,  after  their  custom,  are  usually  expected  to 
entertain  a  large  number  of  their  followers,  and  have  been  accustomed 
to  have  a  large  supply  on  hand  to  be  able  to  entertain  their  friends  in 
their  wild  state  coming  to  the  agency.  This  custom  is  so  fixed  upon 
them  that  we  have  to  yield  to  it  to  a  certain  extent,  and  furnish  the 
chief  or  head  man  of  a  band  an  extra  amount  of  rations. 

Q.  Who  determines  the  difference  between  one  head  man  and  another,, 
or  between  the  chief  and  his  men  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  you  determine  to  whom  you  will  give  the  most  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  make  it  even  with  the  head  men  themselves  ;  that  is, 
give  them  one  extra  ration  for  their  families.  I  treat  all  the  head  men 
alike.  I  don't  give  the  soldiers  anything  extra.  To  Eed  Cloud,  Blue 
Horse,  High  Wolf,  and  other  head  men  I  give  more  rations  than  the 
rest. 

:  Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  give  those  head  men  in  the  same 
proportion  J?     Do  you  give  one  head  man  just  as  much  as  another? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  never  made  any  distinction  in  giving  one  more 
than  other.  I  have  never  heard  any  complaint  that  I  have  done  so.  I 
have  been  breaking  down  the  system  of  giving  extra  rations  as  much 
as  I  can,  and  now  I  have  almost  broken  it  up. 

Q.  Can  you  show  by  your  records  to  what  chiefs  and  bands  cattle 
have  been  issued,  and  the  numbers  to  each,  since  you  have  been  at  lied 
Cloud  f 


428 

A.  I  cannot. 

Q.  Have  you  that  record  for  any  portion  of  the  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  what  portion  ? 

A.  For  the  last  six  mouths.  I  keep  now  a  record  of  iny  issues  of  beef 
to  all  the  bauds. 

Q.  Were  there  any  cattle  receipted  for  in  October,  1873,  which  you 
did  not  see  yourself  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  date  I 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  date.  I  think  that  I  saw  a  portion  of  all 
cattle  that  were  receipted  for  on  any  receipts  at  that  time,  although  I 
did  not  see  all  of  them. 

Q.  At  any  time  has  there  been  an  allowance  made  to  the  contractor 
for  shrinkage  in  his  cattle  by  reason  of  over-driving  f 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Now,  have  you  been  told  or  have  you  information  that  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  ever  made  such  an  allowance? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  have  no  information  that  Mr.  Appleton  ever  made  such 
an  allowance.  I  have  heard  it  said  that  he  did.  It  was  said  by  a  party 
that  knew  nothing  about  it;  but  no  such  allowance  was  ever  made. 

Q.  It  has  been  asserted  by  some  persons  that  Mr.  Appleton,  in  Novem 
ber,  1873,  made  an  allowance  to  Bosler  of  thirty-five  pounds  each  for  cat 
tle  received  for  over-driving.  Was  that  ever  done  with  your  knowledge 
or  consent  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Bid  Mr.  Appleton  ever  tell  you  that  he  had  done  so  ? 

A.  He  did  not  advise  me  that  he  ever  did  so.  That  was  Mr.  A.  B. 
Appleton,  now  residing  at  Sioux  City.  I  requested  him  to  come  here 
before  you  started  from  the  agency,  but  he  had  not  time  to  get  here  before 
you  would  leave,  and  I  told  him  not  to  come.  There  is  no  record  on 
that  subject  on  my  books.  I  pay  my  employes  by  checks.  I  keep  my 
deposits  in  Omaha,  in  the  First  National  Bank;  it  is  selected  by  the  De 
partment  as  my  depository.  I  keep  no  deposits  in  Cheyenne.  Omaha 
is  five  hundred  miles  from  Cheyenne  and  six  hundred  from  Red  Cloud. 
My  employes  have  sold  their  checks  to  the  traders.  I  have  never 
known  of  the  checks  being  shaved  at  Eed  Cloud  at  five  or  ten  percent, 
discount.  I  don't  know  that  it  ever  has  been  done  ;  most  of  the  men 
are  indebted  to  the  traders  to  a  certain  extent  at  the  end  of  the  quarter, 
and  they,  the  traders,  take  their  checks. 

Q.  Are  the  books  and  accounts  of  your  predecessors  in  your  posses 
sion  1 

A.  None  of  them  have  been  left  with  me. 

Q.  Have  you  a  set  of  books,  which  you  consider  to  be  entirely  correct, 
all  to  be  left  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  law  requires  me  to  keep  but  one  book,  upon  which 
shall  be  entered  all  articles  purchased  for  the  agency.  All  the  books 
that  I  have  there  are  books  that  I  have  gotten  up  myself  from  my  own 
ideas  of  what  was  necessary;  and  I  will  say  that  it  is  one  thing  that  is 
mportant,  I  think,  for  the  agencies,  that  the  Department  should  pre 
scribe  the  system  of  books  for  the  agencies,  to  be  left  there,  and  the 
forms  upon  which  they  shall  be  kept.  If  I  had  had  such  regulations  and 
the  forms  of  keeping  those  books  when  I  first  went  there,  there  would  not 
have  been  the  distraction  in  the  records  which  now  exists  ;  but,  not  know 
ing  the  business  and  the  necessities  of  the  service,  I  had  to  get  up  books 
just  as  the  necessities  arose.  I  could  now  get  up  such  books  as  would 


429 

keep  a  perfect  record  for  the  agency,  and  I  suppose  there  are  some  men 
who  have  experience  at  the  Department  who  could  do  the  same  thing. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  assign  any  reason  or  any  explanation  of  the  fact  that  your 
agency  has  been  singled  out  in  the  most  systematic  manner  as  a  point 
of  attack  ever  since  you  have  been  in  that  agency  ? 

A.  A  large  portion  of  it  is  incomprehensible  to  me.  There  are  some 
facts,  however,  in  regard  to  matters  which  have  occurred  in  connection 
with  the  agency  which  1  will  state.  First  among  these  is  this :  When  I 
first  went  to  the  agency,  Mr.  William  Welsh  took  a  very  active  part  in 
what  he  termed  detecting  frauds  at  the  agencies,  and  wrote  me  a  letter, 
in  which  he  stated  that  he  wished  ine  to  act  the  part  of  a  detective 
upon  the  officers  of  the  Government  which  were  over  me.  I  made  no 
reply  to  such  letters.  Soon  after  I  got  to  the  agency,  a  large  number 
of  those  wild  Indians  came  down,  increasing  the  number  of  Indians 
to  be  fed  at  the  agency  about  double  those  which  had  been  estimated 
for,  and  I  was  compelled  to  give  them  rations.  I  wrote  to  the  Depart 
ment,  asking  instructions.  I  was  told  to  give  them  rations.  As  soon  as 
nay  receipts  were  in  there,  this  man  Walker  was  sent  out  there  to  the 
agency,  to,  it  seems,  make  a  report  upon  the  agency,  and  his  report 
looked  as  if  he  had  gone  out  there  to  make  up  a  case  without  regard  for 
truth.  Another  thing :  When  I  first  went  to  the  agency,  Mr.  Jules 
Ecoffee  was  the  trader  at  the  agencv.  He  had  gotten  into  a  difficulty 
between  two  parties  of  Indians,  one  of  which  was  for  him  and  the  other 
against  him.  And  at  that  time  a  keg  of  whisky  was  taken  from  his 
store  and  destroyed  by  the  Indians,  and  the  Indians  met  him  as  he  was 
going  to  Fort  Laramie,  and  ordered  him  out  of  the  country,  and  de 
manded  of  me  that  another  trader  should  be  appointed.  This  I  reported 
to  the  Department,  and  Mr.  Ecoffee's  license  was  revoked,  and  Mr. 
Todd  Randall  was  appointed  trader.  General  John  E.  Smith  is  a  par 
ticular  friend  of  Mr.  Ecoffee's,  and  seems  to  have  taken  up  his  cause,  at 
least  in  feeling,  if  in  no  other  way ;  and  during  the  time  of  the  excite 
ment,  along  in  the  winter,  after  Mr.  Walker's  report,  made  another  re 
port,  stating  that  I  was  issuing  beef  in  such  quantities  that  it  was  left 
to  rot  on  the  prairie,  the  Indians  taking  only  the  hides,  and  trading 
them  for  guns  and  ammunition.  I  received  this  statement  from  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  by  telegraph,  asking  me  if  it  were  so.  I  tele 
graphed  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  that  the  statement  of  Gen 
eral  Smith  was  false  in  every  particular.  This  was  a  very  opposite  issue 
between  General  Smith  and  myself,  and  was  the  origin  of  the  large 
portion,  I  suppose,  of  the  feeling  of  the  Army  officers,  which  has  caused 
them  to  enter  so  zealously  in  this  matter  against  Red  Cloud  agency.  I 
think  that,  coupled  with  the  desire  of  a  certain  portion  of  the  Army  officers 
to  have  the  Indian  business  transferred  to  the  War  Department,  has  been 
the  origin  of  this  fight  here  on  me.  I  think,  too,  that  the  importance  of 
the  agency,  it  being  a  very  large  one,  has  had  something  to  do  with 
it,  together  with  the  fact  that  many  of  those  individuals  have  held  office, 
and  wish  to  break  down  the  peace-policy,  and  look  upon  Red  Cloud 
agency  as  the  most  vulnerable  point  to  attack  the  Indian  business.  That 
is  about,  in  general  terms,  my  idea  of  the  whole  causes  of  making  Red 
Cloud  the  center  of  attack.  Although  it  has  not  been  entirely  confined  to 
Red  Cloud  agency,  that  has  been  the  central  figure  in  the  contest.  And 
if  you  will  allow  me  to  add,  for  myself,  it  has  been  the  cause  of  embar 
rassment  to  me ;  it  has  been  the  cause  of  dissatisfaction  and  disaffection 
among  the  Indians;  it  has  been  the  loss  of  money  to  the  Government  j  it 


430 

has  made  it  more  difficult  for  me  to  carry  on  the  business  of  the  agency, 
and  obstructed  work  that  could  have  been  accomplished  there  had  these 
attacks  not  been  made.  I  can  say  now  that  I  would  have  had  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  thirty  or  forty  families  in  houses  ;  I  would  have  had  the 
agency  completed,  and  a  school-house  there,  and  possibly  a  school,  with 
the  same  amount  of  money  that  has  been  expended  there,  if  it  had  not 
been  for  these  troubles. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Don't  you  think,  under  all  those  circumstances,  that  the  best  in 
terests  of  the  service  would  be  promoted  by  changing  you  for  some 
other  agency,  and  putting  some  other  person  in  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  made  up  my  mind  on  that  subject  when  I  was  in  Wash 
ington  last  summer,  and  have  acted  accordingly.  I  feel,  as  I  stated  in 
my  letter  to  the  Commissioner,  that  these  attacks  upon  me  have  weak 
ened  my  influence  with  the  Indians.  While  I  do  not  believe  that  the 
Indians  will  ever  be  satisfied  with  any  agent  that  would  undertake  to 
carry  out  the  law  and  his  duty  fully,  still,  there  has  been  a  considerable 
feeling  worked  up  against  me  among  some  of  them.  While  most  of 
them  are  my  friends,  and  insist  upon  my  remaining  there,  others  feel 
very  bitter  toward  me. 

By  HARRIS  : 

Q.  There  is  in  the  warehouse  a  large  quantity  of  corn  which  has  not 
been  inspected  ;  will  you  state  the  amount  ! 

A.  I  don't  know  the  amount.  There  is  one  train-load.  I  think  there 
are  about  250  sacks,  at  150  pounds  to  the  sack,  which  make  37,500 
pounds.  I  am  not  sure,  and  I  will  .correct  this  statement  if  I  find  it  to 
be  wrong. 

Q.  On  whose  contract  was  that  corn  forwarded  ? 

A.  John  E.  Baldwin's.  It  has  not  been  weighed  at  the  agency ;  it 
possibly  has  been  weighed,  but  not  officially. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  you  have  given  receipts  to  Mr.  McCaun  for 
the  transportation  of  that  corn  ? 

A.  Mr.  McCann  did  not  transport  it.  Mr.  Baldwin's  contract  pro 
vides  that  he  shall  deliver  the  corn  at  the  agency.  I  permitted  it  to  be 
placed  in  the  warehouse  without  receiving  it  or  receipting  for  it,  and 
notified  the  Department,  and  have  received  instructions  concerning  its 
inspection.  The  instructions  were  to  request  the  commanding  officer  at 
Fort  Robinson  to  appoint  a  board  of  survey  to  inspect  and  receive  it. 
I  have  made  that  request  to  the  commanding  officer,  and  he  has  informed 
me  that  he  could  not  appoint  such  a  board  without  higher  authority ; 
and  I  had  to  return  his  answer  to  the  Department,  in  order  to  get  orders 
from  the  Secretary  of  War.  There  is  more  corn  due  on  the  Baldwin 
contract.  I  don't  recollect  how  much. 

Q.  Do  you  judge  it  to  be  judicious  to  supply  corn  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Partly,  yes,  sir;  I  think  it  would  be  better,  as  I  have  reported  al 
ready  to  the  Commissioner,  to  have  a  corn-mill  and  grind  it  there  at  the 
agency. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON  : 

Q.  What  was  the  longest  i>eriod  during  last  year  in  which  there  was 
no  issue  of  beef ? 

A.  I  cannot  tell  the  exact  time ;  but  think  it  was  eighteen  days. 

Q.  Are  you  confident  that  there  was  no  longer  period  than  that  in 
which  there  was  no  beef  issued  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  positively,  but  I  think  that  was  the  longest  period. 


431 

Q.  Can  you  state  any  more  accurately  in  regard  to  any  other  supplies 
than  beef? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  reporting  the  affair  of  the  flag-staff  to  the  Department,  what  in 
structions  did  you  receive  ? 

A.  I  received  instructions  from  the  Commissioner  to  cause  those  In« 
dians  to  bring  in  a  new  staff  and  erect  it  there,  if  I  had  sufficient  force 
there  to  do  so. 

Q.  What  action  did  you  take  or  what  answer  did  you  make? 

A.  I  returned  an  answer,  and  sent  copies  of  the  correspondence  be 
tween  Major  Mear  and  myself  in  regard  to  the  force  he  had  at  Camp 
Eobinson,  showing  that  it  would  be  impracticable  to  carry  out  the  Com 
missioner's  instructions.  I  will  say,  that  if  I  had  had  the  workmen  then  to 
put  up  the  flag-staff  I  could  have  done  so.  The  young  men  and  soldiers 
came  to  me  and  said  if  I  wanted  to  have  a  flag  staff  put  up  they  would 
protect  me ',  but  I  had  no  workmen  there  to  do  it. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Doctor,  have  you  had  any  teachers  at  the  agency  heretofore  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  there  been  no  appropriation  heretofore  for  that  purpose? 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  the  appropriation  is  a  permanent  one  for 
schools.  The  funds  under  which  I  get  money  are  as  follows :  Pay  of 
agents,  pay  of  interpreters,  pay  of  employes,  incidental  expenses,  and 
beneficial  purposes.  I  enter  them  on  my  book  under  those  heads,  and 
pay  out  of  those  funds  for  just  such  things  as  I  make  requisition  for; 
but  how  they  are  managed  at  Washington  I  don't  know,  nor  do  1  know 
how  they  are  appropriated. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  recollect  what  the  amount  of  this  beneficial  fund  is  at  your 
agency  f 

A.  It  is  irregular.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  fixes  the 
amount. 

Q.  Is  not  the  school-fund  included  in  the  beneficial  fund  f 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Have  you  any  discretion,  yourself,  in  the  expenditure  of  the  bene 
ficial  fund  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  is  all  prescribed  by  the  Department  at  Washington. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Doctor,  have  you  any  duties  devolving  upon  you  as  agent  other 
than  to  receive  the  various  supplies  purchased  for  distribution  at  that 
agency,  and  to  make  that  distribution  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have  other  duties. 

Q.  What  are  they  ? 

A.  Under  the  instructions  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
to  do  and  perform  any  acts  or  work  to  promote  civilization  among  the 
Indians. 

Q.  Is  there  any  practical  difficulty  in  the  way  of  your  keeping  an  ac 
count  by  a  system  of  your  own  of  the  supplies  received,  so  that  you  can 
be  able  to  tell  at  any  time,  or  at  all  times,  that  you  have  received  just 
the  amount  of  supplies  belonging  to  the  agency,  and  show  with  such 
accuracy  as  a  merchant  can  show  that  he  has  received  exactly  the  in 
voice  that  he  purchases  year  by  year  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  there  is  no  practical  difficulty  in  the  way  of  doing  that  ex 
cept  the  clerical  labor,  or  want  of  sufficient  competent  clerical  force  to 


432 

keep  such  a  system  of  books  that  would  show  all  those  items  as  a  mer 
chant's  books  show  them.    There  is  perhaps  a  practical  difficulty  there. 
Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  had  not  sufficient  clerical  force  f 
A.  No,  sir,  I  had  not. 
Q.  Have  you  asked  for  additional  clerical  force  for  that  purpose  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  not  always  been  able  to  devise  a  plan  by  which  you  could 
show  the  distribution  of  the  various  supplies  you  received,  with  such 
accuracy  and  certainty  as  a  merchant  can  show  the  sales  of  his  goods  f 

A.  I  believe  that  I  do  that  now. 

Q.  Have  you  always  done  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  at  first;  not  with  the  same  accuracy  that  we  do  now. 

Q.  When  was  the  system  in  which  you  are  now  keeping  your  books 
first  adopted  ? 

A.  I  commenced  the  first  of  July,  1874. 

Q.  Since  the  first  of  July,  1874,  your  books  will  show  accurately  the 
distribution  of  all  the  goods  of  every  description  which  you  have  re 
ceived  at  that  agency  for  that  purpose ? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  of  all.  The  books  alone  will  not  show  the  distribu 
tion  of  beef  since  that  time  to  the  Indians  or  head  men. 

Q.  Will  your  books  show  the  distributions  of  other  supplies  ? 

A.  Not  of  annuity  goods  or  of  rations ;  they  will  at  the  warehouse  ;  the 
annuities  were  distributed  and  the  amounts  entered  up  as  a  whole,  and 
not  as  a  distribution  as  with  the  beef. 

Q.  Who  is  there  connected  with  your  agency  who,  if  placed  on  the 
stand,  could  verify  the  accuracy  of  your  books? 

A.  The  clerk,  as  far  as  the  books  are  concerned,  and  the  store  keeper 
of  the  books  he  keeps. 

Q.  These  two  functionaries  keep  different  sets  of  books? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  these  different  books  and  different  entries  relate  to  the  same 
transaction  or  to  different  transactions? 

A.  The  same  transactions  in  a  somewhat  different  form. 

Q.  So  that  one  is  a  check  upon  the  other  ? 

A.  They  are  so  intended. 

Q.  You  state  in  addition  to  these  duties  of  receiving  and  distributing 
goods  and  supplies,  you  are  also  charged  with  the  duty  of  executing 
such  orders  as  the  Commissioner  issues  from  time  to  time  to  promote 
civilization  among  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     These  are  contained  in  my  letter  of  instructions. 

Q.  All  the  instructions  you  have  received  in  that  behalf  are  in  writ 
ing,  I  suppose? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  in  writing  or  in  printed  orders  or  circulars.  They  are 
matters  of  record  both  in  my  office  and  in  the  Indian  Bureau. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  one  order  or  any  one  specific  thing  which 
you  have  been  ordered  to  do  by  way  of  promoting  civilization,  beyond 
that  of  distributing  supplies  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  in  point  of  fact  there  has  been  no 
teacher  employed  at  the  agency  up  to  this  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  has  been  no  attempt  to  open  a  school? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  large  is  this  building  to  be  which  you  are  about  to  construct 
for  a  school-house? 


433 

A.  I  am  going  to  make  a  one-story  house,  22  or  25  feet  by  50  feet, 
with  two  rooms. 

Q.  What  is  that  building  going  to  cost! 

A.  It  will  cost,  altogether,  about  twelve  or  fifteen  hundred  dollars; 
that  and  the  stockade-fence  around  it.  We  have  to  build  the  fence  to 
keep  the  children  in  and  the  others  out. 

Q.  Are  you  building  it  upon  contract? 

A.  No,  sir;  so  far  we  have  only  sawed  the  lumber  and  purchased  the 
logs,  but  whether  it  shall  be  built  by  contract  or  by  the  day,  I  propose 
to  get  instructions  from  the  Department. 

Q.  What  did  the  logs  cost  you  ? 

A.  Three  hundred  and  fifty  dollars,  I  think. 

Q.  How  many  thousand  feet  of  lumber? 

A.  Twenty  thousand  feet,  I  think. 

Q.  You  saw  the  lumber? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  20,000  feet  you  think  will  put  up  the  building  and  the  fence? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  the  estimate. 

There  is  one  thing  in  Professor  Marsh's  charges  which  I  would  like  to 
correct.  The  Professor  states  that  I  told  him  in  presence  of  Bishop 
Hare  that  the  cattle  issued  on  the  14th  of  November  averaged  850 
pounds.  The  conversation  wras  going  on  between  Bishop  Hare  and 
Professor  Marsh  as  to  what  average  weights  the  contract  required,  it 
having  been  stated  by  Professor  Marsh  that  the  contract  required  1,000 
pounds,  and  which  had  been  corrected  by  some  person  in  the  papers. 
Bishop  Hare  asked  me  what  weights  the  contract  called  for,  and  I  told 
him  850  pounds;  he  then  said  to  me,  "  Will  these  cattle  average  that 
much  F  and  I  answered,  "Yes,  and  more."  He  then  asked  Professor  Marsh 
if  he  thought  they  would  average  that  much,  and  he  said  that  he  did  not 
think  they  would  average  over  750  pounds.  The  bishop  asked  him  if 
he  could  make  an  affidavit  to  that  fact,  and  he  said  no,  he  could  not. 
Now  I  wish  to  explain  that  I  did  not  state  that  the  cattle  averaged  ex 
actly  850  pounds.  I  simply  intended  to  state  just  the  question  that  was 
asked  me,  that  they  would  weigh  that  much.  At  the  time  the  question 
was  asked  me,  I  did  not  remember  how  much  the  cattle  averaged;  I 
only  remember  the  general  fact  that  they  averaged  something  over  one 
thousand  pounds,  and  if  he  had  asked  me  how  much  the  cattle  would 
have  averaged,  I  could  not  have  told  him  at  the  time,  and  it  is  a  mistake 
to  say  that  I  made  such  a  statement. 


DR.  SAVILLE'S  DOCUMENTARY  EVIDENCE. 

The  following  are  the  documents  furnished  by  Dr.  Saville,  to  which 
reference  is  made  in  his  written  reply  to  Professor  Marsh's  charges,  and 
in  his  oral  testimony  : 

ALLEGED  OVER-ISSUE  OF  RATIONS. 

Complaint  of  S.  R.  Uosmer. 

ZANESVILLE,  September  7,  1873. 

DKAII  SIK  :  Yours  is  received.     Will  say  that  I  have  very  little  doubt  that  the  Gov 
ernment  is  paying  for  a  very  large  number  of  rations  at  the   Red  Cloud  agency  more 
than  there  is  Indians,  and  the  only  way  to  ascertain  that  fact  is  to  send  a  special  agent 
to  go  there,  count  the  Indians,  and  also  the  number  of  rations  that  may  be  issue  I  at 
28  I  F 


434 

three  or  four  different  ration-days.  As  to  the  flour,  you  will  bo  astonished  at  what  I 
am  about  to  state.  The  Indians  don't  make  any  use  of  flour,  no  more  than  though  it- 
was  sand.  1  went  into  a  great  many  lodges.  In  some  1  would  find  ten  bags,  others 
fifteen,  and  some  as  high  as  twenty,  all  of  it  having  the  appearance  of  being  there  for 
months;  bags  all  turned  black;  used  generally  to  lie  or  sit  on.  I  dou'c  see  anything 
to  indicate  the  use  of  any  flour  for  the  last  twelve  months.  I  see  no  sign  of  ne  w  bags, 
but  I  did  see  a  stack  a  long  distance  in  the  prairie.  I  asked  what  it  was,  and  was  told 
it  was  flour.  It  was  some  distance  off,  but  I  took  the  time  to  go  and  see  it,  and  I  found 
not  less  than  one  hundred  and  fifty  or  maybe  two  hundred  bags  of  flour  in  a  stack 
without  the  least  covering,  bags  all  turned  black,  and  the  clerk  informed  me  that  it 
had  been  there  over  six  months.  Now,  as  flour  is  not  used  by  the  Indians,  it  seems  to 
me  that  Dr.  Daniels,  if  he  had  been  a  correct  man,  would  have  notified  your  Depart 
ment  of  such  fact ;  but  I  think  there  is  a  good  show  for  dishonesty. 
Truly, 

S.  R.  HOSMER. 
E.  P.  SMITH.  Commissioner. 


Agent  Saville's  lii'ply  to  the  Above. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T., 

September  27,  1873. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your  communica 
tion  of  the  loth  instant,  inclosing  copy  of  letter  from  Hon.  S.  R.  Hosmer,  charging  that 
there  is  an  overissue  of  rations  at  the  agency  ;  that  the  Indians  make  no  more  use  of 
the  flour  than  if  it  were  sand  ;  that  he  saw  a  large  amount  of  flour  in  Indian  lodges 
which  had  the  appearance  of  having  laid  there  for  months;  that  he  saw  two  hundred 
sacks  of  flour  on  the  prairie,  bags  turned  black,  and  the  clerk  informed  him  that  it  had 
been  there  for  six  months;  and  recommending  that  a  special  commissioner  be  sent  here 
to  count  the  Indians,  and  number  of  rations  issued,  &c. 

In  reply  I  will  respectfully  state  that,  as  regards  the  first  charge,  I  think  perhaps  at 
this  time  there  is  an  overissue  of  rations,  arising  from  the  Indians  claiming  more 
families  than  they  have  in  their  bands.  I  have  been  making  every  effort  to  ascertain 
the  correct  number,  but  owing  to  the  persistent  refusal  of  the  Indians  to  permit  any 
person  to  number  them,  I  have  failed;  as  regards  the  means  taken  to  verify  their 
statements,  I  first  attempted  the  course  followed  by  my  predecessor,  to  ascertain  by 
indirect  means  the  true  number,  but  have  found  that  it  only  created  bitter  feelings 
and  resentment.  I  have  now  appealed  directly  to  their  sense  of  right,  and  have 
obtained  their  consent  to  have  one  of  their  own  number  count  the  people,  which  I  look 
upon  as  a  step  toward  getting  permission  to  count  them  myself.  Mr.  Hosmer's  charge 
could  only  be  a  surmise  on  his  part,  as  he  had  no  means  of  ascertaining  the  fact,  the 
short  time  he  was  at  the  agency. 

The  second  charge  is  so  idle  that  it  scarcely  deserves  notice,  and  can  only  be 
answered  by  a  general  denial. 

To  the  third  charge  I  will  say,  if  the  gentleman  should  at  any  time  go  into  certain 
lodges  soon  after  issue-day,  he  would  see  bags  of  flour  piled  up  ;  and  if  he  should  go 
again  the  day  before  issue-day,  he  would  fiud  that  they  had  disappeared. 

I  have  ascertained  from  the  employes  that  the  flour  stacked  upon  the  prairie  was 
a  lot  of  flour  received  by  Mnjor  Wham,  had  been  stored  at  Fort  Laramie,  and  had  been 
brought  down  a  short  time  before  Mr.  Hosmer's  visit,  and  stacked  on  the  bank  of  the 
river,  because  the  water  was  so  high  that  it  could  not  be  brought  over  to  the  agency. 
This  flour  was  transferred  to  me  by  Dr.  Daniels,  and  I  have  issued  all  of  it  to  the 
Indians,  though  they  complained  bitterly  about  it,  not  from  any  damage  it  received 
when  stacked  on  the  bank  of  the  river,  but  because  it  was  originally  bad,  and  became 
Avorse  by  becoming  musty  by  age. 

As  regards  the  recommendation  for  a  special  agent,  if  the  gentleman  covets  the  job 
of  counting  Indians,  I  am  sure  1  have  no  objection  to  his  trying  it  on  these;  he  would, 
perhaps,  get  information  more  important  to  himself  than  to  the  Department. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent 

Hon  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


435 

•  COUNTING  THE  INDIANS. 

Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  December  29,  1873. 

SIR:  la  compliance  with  circular  from  office  of  ludian  Affairs  dated  April  14,  1873  , 
requiring  a  report  of  the  number  of  Indians  present  and  receiving  food  at  the  time  of 
the  issue  thereof,  I  respectfully  report  that  for  the  fourth  quarter,  1873,  the  number 
present  at  time  of  each  issue  is  as  follows: 

Lodges.      People. 

October  1 1,990  13,930 

October  8 '2, 100  14,  700 

October  21 : 1,795  12,535 

October  23 2,388  16,716 

Novembers 2,316  16,212 

November  18 2,371  16,597 

November  29 2,  313  16, 191 

December  9 2,336  16,352 

December  20 2,300  16,100 

The  above  is  the  number  estimated  from  the  report  of  the  Indians  themselves,  cor 
rected  as  far  as  possible  from  outside  information.  These  figures  I  think  too  high,  and 
I  bring  the  issue  of  beef  down  as  low  as  I  can  without  the  aid  of  force. 

The  number  of  rations  that  I  have  actually  issued  is  an  average  of  thirteen  thousand, 
(13,000,)  and  this  I  believe  to  be  near  the  number  of  people  here. 

I  have  counted  the  Cheyeuues  and  Arapahoes,  and  find  1,900  Cheyennes,  and  243 
Arapahoes.  To  these  I  have  issued,  of  food  other  than  beef,  about  two-thirds  rations  ; 
to  the  Sioux  I  have  issued  about  one-half  rations. 

Over  the  beef  issue  I  have  not  so  much  control. 

During  the  month  of  October,  when  the  northern  Indians  were  coming  in,  they 
reported  many  more  lodges  than  they  had.  I  reduced  the  number  as  much  as  I  was 
able,  but  as  their  demands  were  excessive  I  could  not  avoid  issuing  a  greater  num 
ber  of  beeves  than  I  thought  due  them.  In  order  to  keep  the  issue  something  near 
right,  I  let  the  time  pass  to  ten  days. 

On  October  21  I  cut  the  issue  down,  and-  attempted  to  force  a  count  of  their  lodges, 
.with  the  result  stated  in  my  monthly  report  for  October.  This  raised  such  a  tumult 
that  I  was  compelled  to  anticipate  the  issue  of  November  1. 

It  is  impossible  to  make  a  regular  issue  of  food  to  these  Indians. 
Very  respectfullv,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Ayent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  December  29,  1873. 

Sir  :  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  report  that  on  Christmas  day  I  made  a  feast 
and  called  together  the  chiefs  and  principal  men  of  the  Sioux,  for  the  purpose  of  bring 
ing  before  them  again  the  question  of  counting  the  people. 

Red  Cloud,  Red  Boy,  Blue  Horse,  and  Slow  Bull  had  promised  me  that  it  should  be 
done. 

I  talked  with  Little  Wound  the  night  before  the  council,  and  he  promised  to  favor  it. 

The  prospects  seemed  favorable  to  accomplish  this  desirable  object. 

When  the  council  met  Red  Cloud  had  to  be  sent  for  twice  before  he  would  come.  I 
explained  to  them  the  necessity  for  numbering  the  people,  that  they  might  get  the 
proper  kinds  and  amount  of  annuity  goods,  and  that  I  might  be  able  to  issue  their 
rations  in  a  more  satisfactory  manner.  I  read  to  them  the  circular  requiring  me  to 
report  the  number  of  Indians  receiving  food.  I  gave  it  to  them  as  the  words  of  the 
Great  Father,  and  that  this  was  required  of  them  by  him.  Red  Cloud  arose  and  made 
a  speech,  a  copy  of  which  accompanies  this  report. 

I  believe  that  it  reflects  the  sentiments  of  the  council,  and  it  was  applauded  by  those 
present,  and  mostly  so  when  he  spoke  of  the  death  of  their  people  being  caused  by  the 
whites.  And  when  he  said  they  had  resolved  to  do  nothing  until  they  get  the  guns,  and 
refused  to  take  anything  in  lieu  of  them,  not  a  man  made  an  attempt  to  oppose  him. 

High  Wolf  and  Red  Dog  spoke  and  indorsed  all  that  Red  Cloud  had  said.  All  the 
rest  of  my  pretended  friends  were  silent.  I  told  them  that  I  would  do  nothing  more 


436 

for  them  ;  that  until  they  did  as  I  required  them  to  do,  I  should  do  nothing  to  get  them 
anything. 

I  have  given  up  all  hopes  of  controlling  this  issue  of  rations  except  by  force. 
These  chiefs  are  jealous  of  each  other,  each  trying  to  gain  favor  among  the  soldiers. 
The  soldiers  are  dissatisfied,  insolent,  and  unreasonable,  becoming  more  overbearing  in 
their  demands  every  day. 

They  annoy  the  workmen  while  at  labor,  and  raise  more  or  less  disturbance  at  time 
of  issuing  beef.  From  one  issue  to  the  next  it  is  a  constant  contention  over  the 
amount  each  shall  have.  This,  while  it  is  almost  unendurable,  might  be  overcome  in 
time;  but  the  indications  become  more  and  more  apparent  that  the  young  men  are 
preparing  for  war  in  the  spring.  The  expression  of  Red  Clond  to  let  the  issue  of 
rations  "  continue  as  it  is  until  spring,  and  that  they  will  wait  for  the  gnus  until  that 
time,"  conveys  an  implied  threat.  There  are  many  Indians  here  who  are  in  favor  of 
sustaining  me,  and  are  opposed  to  all  attempts  at  violence;  but  they  are  overruled 
and  silenced  by  the  more  warlike  and  restless  majority.  Of  the  number  whfc.  are  sin 
cerely  in  favor  of  peace,  I  believe  Man-Afraid-of-his-Horse  is  the  head.  He,  not  Red 
Cloud,  is  recognized  by  the  majority  of  the  Indians  as  the  legitimate  head  chief  of  the 
Ogallallas.  1  have  appealed  to  him  to  undertake  to  unite  his  people,  and  do  as  Govern 
ment  demands,  or  they  will  bring  trouble  upon  themselves.  He  has  promised  to  do  so  ; 
but  such  is  the  disorganized  state  of  affairs  that  I  have  little  hope  of  his  accomplish 
ing  anything.  The  old  man  told  me  that  the  Crows  had  invited  him  and  his  son  to 
visit  them  to  form  a  treaty  of  peace.  He  remarked  that  he  did  not  know  why  they 
wished  it.  I  have  learned  from  others  that  it  is  understood  among  the  Indians  that 
the  Crows  wished  to  form  a  combination  against  the  whites.  He  also  told  me  that 
the  Minneconjou  had  ordered  all  their  people  to  leave  the  agency,  and  that  they  in 
tended  to  leave  as  soon  as  the  grass  started.  There  are  evidently  t\vo  parties  here, 
one  for  peace  and  one  for  war.  The  indications  are  that  the  wrar  party  is  gaining 
ground,  and  are  now  probably  in  the  majority. 

On  the  24th  instant,  four  young  men  from  the  Wazaza  camp  came  to  me  and  de 
manded  blankets  and  guns  as  pay  for  the  timber  cut  at  the  mill,  and  in  case  they  were 
refused,  ordered  me  to  take  the  aien  from  the  mill  and  stop  the  work  here.  With  this, 
of  course,  I  positively  refused  to  comply. 

In  case  it  be  decided  to  send  troops  here,  a  supply  of  provisions  could  be  sent  at  this 
time  without  exciting  the  suspicion  of  the  Indians.  My  supply  of  hay  is  sufficient 
only  for  my  horses  until  the  last  of  March,  and  there  is  none  other  in  the  country. 
Hay  can  be  bought  at  reasonable  prices  on  the  Platte,  below  the  old  agency. 

1  respectfully  request  that,  in  case  any  movement  of  troops  into  this  country  be  con 
templated,  I  be  notified  in  time  to  prepare  for  our  defense,  as  otherwise  our  lives 
would  undoubtedly  be  sacrificed.  I  would  also  state  for  your  information  that  every 
movement  taking  place  at  Fort  Laramie  is  immediately  reported  to  the  Indians  by  the 
half-breeds  and  white  men  married  to  or  living  with  Indian  w7omeu.  It  would  be  a 
great  advantage  to  the  agency  if  this  class  of  persons  could  be  prohibited  coming  to 
the  agency  without  a  pass  from  the  commander  at  Fort  Laramie.  The  length  of  time 
it  takes  for  communications  to  reach  Washington,  and  the  possible  exigency  that  may 
arise  at  any  time,  is  my  excuse  for  volunteering  these  suggestions  at  this  time. 

I  do  not  believe  that  there  is  any  immediate  danger  as  long  as  we  have  plenty  of  food 
for  them,  but  such  is  their  uncertain  temper  that  I  may  have  to  call  for  troops  at  any 
time,  and  certainly  before  spring  opens  they  will  be  needed  here.  In  view  of  this  con 
tingency,  I  will  append  a  report  of  the  present  condition  of  the  agency  in  a  defensive 
view. 

The  buildings  and  stockade  are  none  of  them  quite  finished,  but  with  good  wreather 
we  will  be  able  to  finish  them  in  the  course  of  three  weeks.  The  agency  is  situated  on 
an  elevation  of  about  one  hundred  and  twenty-five  feet  above  and  overlooking  White 
River.  We  should  have  to  dig  to  that  depth  to  obtain  water.  At  present  our  supply 
is  obtained  at  a  spring  about  half  a  mile  distant.  Two  cisterns,  one  at  the  warehouse 
and  one  at  the  barn,  would  give  the  best  supply  when  the  spring-rains  come. 

If  thought  necessary,  these  cisterns  might"  be  built  now,  and  filled  with  water  from 
the  spring  or  river. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
Unit nl  /Slates  Indian  AatnL 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 

Red  Cloud's  speech. 

WLen  the  Gieat  Spirit  made  us,  he  gave  us  the  bow  and  arrow.     He,  gave  you  the 

fun.     We  are  trying  to  do  goad,  an  1  are  still  waiting  for  the  guns  for  our  people.    When 
was  at  Washington  to  see  Great  Father,  he  said  1  was  to  hold  this  side  of  the  Platte 


437 

for  thirty-five  years.  There  were  different  whites  came  here,  and  promised  us  guns  and 
ammunition  if  we  would  move  out  here.  I  did  not  believe  them  at  the  time,  and  I  now 
see  they  did  not  tell  us  the  truth.  They  were  promised  to  this  nation,  and  we  will 
still  look  for  them.  We  want  nothing  in  exchange  for  the  guns.  About  counting  our 
people  :  I  will  say  that  we  will  do  nothing  until  we  get  the  guns  that  were  promised 
us.  We  want  them  as  soon  as  you  can  get  them.  You  white  men  have  a  great  many 
cities — five  or  six.  You  can  count  your  people,  but  we  cannot  count  ours  now,  as  we 
have  no  education.  There  are  several  thousand  Sioux.  Two  thousand  lodges.  You 
asked  me  often  about  counting  our  people.  I  understand  you  very  well,  but  you  tell 
Great  Father  to  send  us  those  guns,  and  we  will  then  talk  about  counting.  You  were 
brought  np  on  different  food  than  we  were,  and  I  blame  the  whites  for  our  people  dying 
off  so  fast.  Our  hills  are  already  becoming  red  with  them.  [Alluding  to  the  coffins 
covered  with  red  flannel  which  we  have  made  for  them,  and  mounted  on  scaffolds.] 
Our  fathers  told  us  about  the  whites  long  ago,  and  that  we  could  get  plenty  of  guns 
from  them  to  hunt  with.  This  is  all  I  have  to  say  now,  and  all  we  want  is  the  gnus 
and  ammunition,  and  we  want  you  to  get  them  for  us.  You  can  issue  rations  to  these 
people  the  same  as  now  until  spring ;  we  will  wait  that  long  for  the  guns. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  February  2,  1874. 

Slit:  During  the  past  month  I  have  steadily  pressed  upon  the  Indians  the  necessity  of 
permitting  me  to  count  their  people.  There  has  been  much  discussion  among  them,  and 
I  think  I  have  gained  ground  among  those  most  devoted  to  maintaining  the  agency. 
They  are  now  fully  aware  that,  in  order  that  they  may  get  a  sufficiency  of  food,  I  must 
know  their  numbers. 

In  my  contentions  with  them  several  important  facts  have  become  apparent.  The 
chiefs  are  but  the  representatives  of  the  soldiers,  and,  although  they  have  a  certain 
influence  over  them  when  pushed  to  speak  in  council,  they  express  the  opinion  of  a 
majority  of  the  soldiers. 

Red  Cloud's  people  are  mostly  of  the  hostile  party,  and  have  generally  exerted  a  con 
trolling  influence  at  the  agency. 

There  are  a  number  of  soldiers  of  the  Kiocsies,  Wazazies,  and  other  bands,  who  are 
devoted  to  the  agency,  and,  if  encouraged,  will  defend  the  agency  and  enforce  the  orders 
of  the  Department. 

Pumpkin-Seed,  head  soldier  of  the  Wazazies,  proposed  to  me  that  if  I  would  arm  ten 
of  his  soldiers  he  would  compel  the  rest  to  have  their  lodges  counted,  adding,  "An 
Indian  has  great  respect  for  a  gun."  I  am  well  convinced  that  this  element  may  be 
used  to  accomplish  the  much-desired  object  of  counting  the  Indians.  I  therefore 
respectfully  request  that  I  may  be  permitted  to  give  to,  say,  four  or  five  of  these  head 
soldiers  a  gun  and  ammunition,  in  case  they  take  hold  with  me  and  count  the  people, 
and  that  I  may  promise  them  that  more  will  be  armed  if  they  prove  true  to  the  Gov 
ernment. 

This  may  fail  to  accomplish  anything.  I  think  it  well  worth  trying.  If  I  can  accom 
plish  this,  I  shall  be  able  to  reach  the  horse-stealing  and  other  annoyances  through 
them. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  /States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T., 

February  14,  1874. 

SIH  :  Relative  to  the  situation  of  affairs  at  this  agency,  I  have  the  honor  respectfully 
to  state  that,  in  my  efforts  to  induce  these  Indians  to  comply  with  the  requirements  of 
the  Government  relative  to  issue  of  food  and  management  of  the  business  of  the  agency, 
I  have  been  firmly  opposed  by  the  Miuueconjoux,  Sans  Arcs,  and  other  northern 
Indians  who  have  spent  the  winter  at  this  agency.  They  have  had  a  great  influence 
over  the  young  men  of  the  Ogallalla  and  13 rule  bauds,  and  as  the  chiefs  could  not  con 
trol  them,  it  has  been  a  constant  struggle  on  my  part  to  prevent  open  hostilities.  But 
by  perseverance  and  constant  work  I  gained  an  influence  over  the  soldiers,  and  united 
them  in  favor  of  carrying  out  my  designs.  Finally  the  northern  Indians  gave  up  the 


438 

hope  of  getting  the  Ogallallas  to  join  them  in  war,  and  came  to  me  and  gave  notice 
that  they  were  going  to  leave,  and  ordered  me  to  take  the  agency  out  of  the  country. 
The  presents  I  had  bought  for  these  Indians  came  in  about  this  time,  and  I  asked 
Lone  Horn,  of  the  north,  the  Minnecoujoux  leader,  to  come  in  before  he  left,  as  I  wished 
to  give  him  something. 

He  came  in  with  about  twenty  of  his  men.  When  I  had  assembled  the  chiefs  and 
soldiers  I  read  and  explained  the  treaty  to  them,  pointing  out  wherein  they  had  vio 
lated  it,  and  finally  assured  these  northern  men  that  the  Government  would  do  noth 
ing  for  them,  nor  give  them  anything,  until  they  abandoned  their  hostile  attitude  and 
came  in  as  friends.  I  offered  Lone  Horn  a  present  as  a  peace-offering.  One  of  bis  men 
outside  the  door  hallooed  at  him,  and  he  refused  to  take  it.  I  distributed  the  presents 
to  the  Ogallalla  chiefs  and  soldiers,  and  they  pledged  themselves  to  defend  the  agency 
and  obey  the  orders  of  the  Great  Father  at  Washington. 

The  northern  Indians  began  immediately  to  break  up  into  war-parties,  and  the  next 
day  I  was  warned  by  some  of  their  men  Avho  were  friendly  with  me  that  four  different 
men  had  resolved  to  kill  me.  Many  of  the  Ogallalla  soldiers  remained  about  the 
agency,  and  all  became  quiet.  I  felt 'that  I  had  gained  a  victory  over  their  war-party. 

Knowing  that  Major  Howard  was  in  trouble  \\itli  these  parties,  I  rode  down  to  his 
agency  to  see  if  I  could  render  him  any  assistance.  While  I  was  there,  about  two 
o'clock  at  night,  my  night-watchman  had  gone  to  sleep  ;  an  Oucapee  Indian  climbed  the 
stockade,  knocked  at  the  door,  and  called  me.  My  clerk,  store-keeper,  and  Dr.  Gure 
were  sleeping  in  the  room.  They  got  up  and  opened  the  door,  and  the  clerk  stepped 
out  to  awaken  the  interpreter. 

He  took  but  a  few  steps  from  the  Indian  when  he  shot  him  through  the  body  and 
fled.  An  Ogallalla,  Afraid-of-Eagle,  was  sent  for  me,  and  while  at  Whetstone  told  the 
Indians  who  the  assassin  was.  The  next  day  the  man  appeared  in  the  camp  of  Roman 
Nose,  near  Whetstone  agency,  and  some  Bru'les*  killed  him. 

The  Ogallallas  have  since  kept  a  guard  day  and  night  over  the  agency.  They  told 
me  that  these  Indians  are  determined  on  war,  of  which  I  was  satisfied  two  months  ago. 

I  have  presented  the  situation  clearly  to  them,  and  assured  them  that  it  is  my  belief 
that  the  Government  would  send  troops  in  this  country  and  punish  them,  and  now  that 
the  Ogallallas  must  say  what  they  were  going  to  do  ;  that  if  these  war-parties  passed 
through  their  country  the  troops  would  certainly  pass  through  after  them.  To-day  a 
general  council  was  held  ;  all  the  bands  have  united  in  the  determination  to  defend 
the  agency,  to  have  nothing  more  to  do  with  the  northern  Indians,  and  prevent  their 
war-parties  from  passing  through  this  country.  They  ask  for  arms  to  carry  out  this 
resolution.  I  am  perfectly  satisfied  that  a  hundred  Springfield  needle-guns,  placed  in 
the  hands  of  such  men  as  I  can  select  here,  will  insure  peace  here,  bring  in  Crazy  Horse, 
head  of  the  hostile  Ogallalla,  and  settle  the  claims  and  disaffection  growing  out  of  the 
removal  of  the  agency. 

Red  Cloud  requests  that  these  soldiers  be  paid  for  doing  guard-duty  and  acting  as 
escorts.  I  would  respectfully  recommend  that  this  be  done.  It  will  give  them  em 
ployment  and  tend  greatly  toward  keeping  them  from  going  off  in  war-parties.  I 
sent  an  escort  with  the  herders  for  cattle,  and  to-morrow  shall  send  eight  men  to  the 
Platte  to  escort  a  freight-train  through.  These  I  have  promised  to  pay. 
Verv  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  March  24,  1(?74. 

Sin :  For  your  information.  I  have  the  honoT,  respectfully,  to  report  that  I  have  nearly 
completed  a  census  of  the  Indians  remaining  at  the  agency.  I  find  many  more  than  I 
expected  after  the  stampede  that  took  place  at  the  time  troops  came  here.  I  have 
already  enrolled  over  four  thousand  Sioux,  and  a  number  have  not  yet  come  in,  seem 
ingly  hanging  between  submitting  to  enrollment  and  leaving  for  the  north.  All  the 
Cheyenues,  except  Turkey-Leg's  small  camp  of  216  persons,  have  gone  north  to  Hot 
River.  The  Arapahoes  remain  here.  At  the  last  count  there  were  963  of  them.  I  shall 
count  them  this  week,  and  by  next  mail  will  give  full  returns  of  the  census.  They  will 
aggregate  near  6,000. 

In  this  connection,  I  will  respectfully  state  that  we  are  out  of  bacon,  having  made 
the  last  issue  February  2.  We  have  forty-one  barrels  of  sugar,  enough  for  three  issues. 
Of  all  other  rations  I  have  enough,  by  a  slight  reduction  of  the  ration  of  coffee,  to  carry 
ine  through  the  year,  provided  the  number  of  Indians  is  not  increased.  If  I  arn  permitted 

*  Mistake. 


439 

to  issue  beef  in  lieu  of  bacon  I  shall  need  no  more  this  year;  but  of  sugar  it  is  very 
desirable  to  have  an  additional  supply,  as  it  certainly  is  a  very  important  part  of  the 
children's  food. 

To-day  a  messenger  came  in  from  the  camp  of  Black  Twins,  hostile  Ogallalla,  saying 
that  he  wished  to  come  to  the  agency  to  trade;  that  he  had  heard  of  what  the  Minne- 
coujoux  had  done,  and  wished  nothing  to  do  with  them,  and  did  not  wish  a  war  with  the 
whites.  I  am  making  every  effort  to  bring  these  people  to  the  agency.  If  they  can 
once  be  separated  from  the  hostile  bauds,  Uncpapas,  Minneconjoux,  and  Sans  Arcs,  a  war 
may  be  averted. 

vSince  arrival  of  the  troops  these  Indians  have  been  very  quiet  and  obedient,  appar 
ently  trying  to  prevent  any  collision  with  the  troops. 

Red  Cloud  has  apologized  for  his  speech  of  December  25,  and  has  done  much  to  atone 
for  his  hostile  speech. 

Very  respectfully,  vour  obedient  servant, 

.1.  J.  SAVI'LLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 
[Telegram.] 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 
Dakota  Territory,  October  19,  1874. 
COM:,IISSIONI:II  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C. : 

All  of  the  Ogallallas  will  be  here  this  week.     I  request  an  order  from  the  Department 
to  the  Indians  at  this  agency  requiring  them  all  to  move  their  camps  to  the  agency 
and  be  counted  in  front  of  their  lodges  before  receiving  their  annuity  goods. 
Please  reply  by  telegraph.     Messenger  will  wait. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Agent  SaviUe  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 
Dakota  Territory,  October  19,  1874. 

SIR  :  The  northern  Indians  are  nearly  all  here,  and  all  will  be  here  this  week.  The 
number  registered  is  large,  yet  about  the  same  as  was  estimated  by  lodges  last  winter. 
I  believe  that  the  number  is  not  far  from  correct ;  but  as  there  is  room  for  doubt  until 
they  are  actually  counted,  it  is  desirable  that  an  actual  count  should  be  made.  I  think 
it  would  be  very  difficult,  if  not  impossible,  for  me  to  count  them  without  an  order  from 
the  Department.  I  have,  therefore,  telegraphed  asking  an  order  directed  to  the  Indians , 
requiring  them  to  move  their  camps  near  the  agency  and  be  counted  in  front  of  their 
lodges  before  they  receive  their  annuity  goods,  and  I  further  recommended  that  in  case 
of  refusal,  that  I  be  authorized  to  stop  their  rations  until  they  submib  to  such  enumer 
ation. 

Very  respectfullv,  vour  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


Agent  SaviUe  to  commanding  officer  of  Camp  Robinson. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  November  ;5, 1874. 

SIR  :  There  are  some  indications  that  I  am  going  to  come  to  an  issue  writh  these  Indi 
ans  over  the  question  of  counting  them.     I  therefore  respectfully  inquire  if  you  have 
sufficient  force  to  protect  the  agency  against  the  united  force  of  the  Indians  now  here, 
and  what  force  you  could  place  at  the  agency  in  case  of  such  an  event. 
Please  answer  by  return  carrier. 

Very  respectfullv,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Major  MEARS, 

Commanding  Camp  Robinson. 


440 

Commanding  officer  of  Camp  Robinson  to  Agent  Saville. 

HEADQUARTERS  CAMP  ROBINSON,  NEBR.,  November  5,  1874. 

SIR:  I  am  instructed  by  the  commanding  officer  of  this  post  to  inform  yon,  in  reply 
to  your  communication  of  this  date,  that  he  is  unable  to  say  whether  he  has  "sufficient 
force  to  prctact  the  agency  against  the  united  force  of  the  Indians,"  as  he  is  unadvised 
of  what  force  the  Indians  can  bring. 

He  directs  me  to  say  that  he  has  four  (4)  companies  of  infantry,  of  forty-five  (45)  men 
each,  and  one  (1)  company  of  cavalry,  of  forty-seven  (47)  men,  the  sick  and  '>'iiard  not 
deducted. 

^The  cavalry,  with  the  exception  of  a  few  men,  and  one  (1)  company  of  infantrv,  is 
all  the  force  that  can  be  spared  to  protect  the  agency,  leaving  the  balance  to  protect 
the  post  until  re-enforcements  arrive. 

I  am,  sir,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

W.  II.  PEASE, 

First  Lieutenant  Ninth  Infantry.  Pout  Adjutant. 
Mr.  J.  J.  SAVILIE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Cloud  Agency,  Nebr. 


Agent  Saville  to  commanding  officer  of  Camp  Robinson. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T .,  November  5,  1874. 

SIR  :  For  your  information  I  would  respectfully  state  that  from  the  best  data  in  my 
office  it  is  my  opinion  that  these  Indians  could  muster  from  fifteen  hundred  to  two 
thousand  lighting  men,  two-thirds  armed  with  guns,  the  rest  with  bows  and  arrows. 
The  defenses  of  the  agency  you  have  seen.  Is  the  force  you  have  designated  in  your 
communication  of  this  date  sufficient  to  hold  this  agency  against  the  above  number 
of  Indians  ? 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent 
COMMANDING  OFFICER,  Camp  Robinson. 


Commanding  officer  of  Camp  Rolinson  to  Agent  Saville. 

HEADQUARTERS  CAMP  ROBINSON,  NEBR.,  November  5,  1874. 

SIR  :  In  reply  to  your  second  communication  of  this  date,  I  am  instructed  by  the  com 
manding  officer  to  say  that,  presuming  you  have  reference  to,  and  wherein  you  inquire 
"is  the  force  you  have  designated  in  your'-  (my)  "communication  of  this  date  suffi 
cient  to  hold  the  agency,"  &c.,  furnishing  only  the  cavalry,  and  one  company  of 
infantry  from  the  command,  as  against  fifteen 'hundred  to  two  thousand  fighting 
Indians,  "two-thirds  armed  with  guns,"  he  believes  it  would  not  be  enough  if  the 
Indians  concentrated  all  their  force  011  the  agency  ;  but  it  is  fully  all  that  can  be 
spared  from  this  command. 

I  am  further  instructed  to  say  to  you  that  the  commanding  officer  will  not  pledge 
himself  to  send  the  cavalry  if  an  outbreak  takes  place,  but  he  will,  when  the  moment 
arrives,  decide  whether  to  send  two  companies  of  infantry,  or  the  cavalry  company 
and  one  of  infantry. 

The  commanding  officer  expresses  a  wish  to  see  you  this  afternoon  at  this  camp,  if 
convenient,  as  he  is  unable,  owing  to  his  duties  of  preparation,  to  come  over  to  the 
agency. 

I  am,  sir,  with  much  respect,  your  obedient  servant, 

WM.  H.  PEASE,    ' 

First  Lieutenant  Nint]t  Infantry.  I'ust  Adjittan 
Mr.  J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Clond  Agency,  Nebr. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  I).  T.,  November  13,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  forward  a  statement  of  the  number  of  Indians 
by  actual  count  at  this  agency,  and  certified  by  those  wiio  assisted  in  the  count.  There 
was  much  opposition  to  the  count,  and  at  one  time  it  appeared  that  there  would  be  a 


441 

forcible  resistance  to  the  orders  of  the  Department.  But  the  arming  of  Indian 
soldiers  had  much  to  do  in  bringing  abont  quiet  and  enabling  me  to  accomplish  this 
much-desired  object.  Many  northern  ludiaus  left  rather  than  submit  to  the  count. 
Lone  Horn's  band  of  Miuneconjoux  and  several  small  bands  of  Sans  Arcs  were  among 
those  who  left.  The  result  of  the  count  confirms  the  approximately  correct  registra 
tion  of  the  Indians  themselves.  Over  half  of  Little  Wound's  band  are  in  Nebraska  a-hnnt- 
ing.  I  have  ordered  Mr.  Browne,  the  sub-agent,  to  count  them  when  he  arrives  on  the 
hunting-ground. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

United  Stales  Indian  Ayent, 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


THE  FLAGG-STAFF  AFFAIR. 

Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

[Telegram.] 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 
Dakota  Territory,  October  24,  1874. 
lion.  COMMISSIONER  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C. : 

Yesterday  I  had  a  pole  brought  to  the  agency  for  a  flag-staff.  Some  Indians  raised 
objections  to  having  a  flag  at  the  agency.  To-day  a  large  number  of  Indians  armed 
and  painted  came  in  and  cut  the  pole  in  pieces.  I  called  upon  Red  Cloud,  who  was 
present,  to  prevent  it,  but  he  refused.  I  called  upon  the  military  for  protection.  A 
squad  of  twenty-six  cavalry,  under  command  of  Lieutenant  Crawford,  responded  and 
marched  bravely  through  several  hundred  armed  and  painted  Indians.  Many  of  the 
agency  Indians  used  all  their  exertions  to  prevent  a  collision.  The  leaders  of  this  party 
are  northern  Indians,  and  the  same  men  who  raised  a  disturbance  at  this  agency  last 

fall. 

J.  ,T.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Agi.'iit  SariUe  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CI.OUD  AGENCY, 
Dakota  Territory,  October  24,  1874. 

SIR:  I  have  tlie  honor  respectfully  to  report, relative  to  the  disturbance  at  this 
agency,  that  on  Friday,  the  23d  instant,  I  had  brought  to  the  agency  a  pole  for  the 
purpose  of  erecting  it  for  a  flag-staff.  At  the  same  time  I  visited  the  camp  of  Little 
Wound  to  ascertain  how  many  of  his  people  were  yet  here,  as  I  was  satisfied  that  he  had 
made  false  statements  about  it.  He  was  at  the  agency  when  I  arrived  and  was  angry 
because  I  had  visited  his  camp.  He  made  some  remarks  in  opposition  to  raising  the 
flag-staff,  but  I  paid  no  attention  to  it,  knowing  that  he  was  in  an  ill-humor.  But  the 
next  morning  one  of  the  leading  men  of  one  of  the  northern  bands  spoke  about  it, 
and  I  explained  to  him  why  I  was  going  to  put  it  up.  This  seemed  satisfac 
tory.  I  still  do  not  think  there  was  any  great  opposition  on  the  part  of  the 
Indians,  for  it  had  been  frequently  spoken  of  in  my  office,  and  some  of  the  Indians 
who  have  been  urging  me  to  put  up  a  council-house  requested  that  I  put  a  pole 
on  it  and  get  a  flag  for  them.  This  shows  that  this  opposition  was  purely  fac 
tious.  At  noon  on  Friday  23d,  as  I  came  out  from  dinner,  a  large  number  of  Indians 
were  inside  the  stockade,  but  as  this  was  not  unusual  I  passed  on  to  the  warehouse  to 
attend  to  some  business  there;  when  I  came  out,  I  heard  a  number  of  Indians  halloo 
ing  and  running  toward  the  pole.  I  told  them  to  leave  it  alone,  and  turned  to  go  toward 
the  office,  and  then  noticed,  what  I  had  not  before  observed,  that  a  large  portion  of  the 
people  there  were  northern  Indians  armed  and  with  only  their  blankets  and  breech-clouts 
on.  They  obtained  an  ax  and  commenced  to  cut  the  pole.  Red  Cloud  was  in  the  office, 
and  I  asked  him  to  stop  them,  but  he  carelessly  remarked  that  they  had  held  a  council 
and  determined  to  destroy  the  pole.  As  armed  Indians  were  rapidly  gathering,  I  sent 
to  Camp  Robinson  for  troops  ;  twenty-six  men  were  sent  down  under  command  of 
Lieutenant  Crawford.  Before  they  got  here  several  hundred  Indians  had  arrived  with 
very  evident  hostile  intentions.  But  about  the  same  time  a  party  of  Man-Afraid-of-his 
Horses'  band,  headed  by  Sitting  Bull,  came  up  and  rushed  between  the  hostile  In 
dians  and  the  troops,  and  with  their  war-clubs  beat  them  back.  This  positive  stand 


442 


on  the  part  of  the  friendly  Indians  entirely  disconcerted  the  hostiles,  and  after  an 
hour  s  excitement  they  drew  off  to  their  camps.     Sitting  Bull  with  about  twenty  of  his 

Tdo  not  °tnlai     HU]1  35?n<Sr8inC2'  ^V  Pormifctod  tlle  soldie™  to  return  to  their  camp. 
I  do  not  think  that  Little  Wound  had  anything  to  do  in  raising  the  excitement,  but 
was  simply  stating  the  opposition  which  was   felt  by  the  northern  Indians  which 
knew  nothing  about  at  the  time.     This  excitement  has  clearly  demonstrated  three  im- 
j)orttintj  liters  i 

1st.  That  among  these  northern  Indians  there  still  remains  a  bitter  hostile  feel  in" 
against  the  whites. 

2nd  That  of  the  Indians  who  live  at  the  agency,  the  greater  part  are  as  truly  friendly 
and  will  light  if  necessary  in  defense  of  the  agency.  Yet  theri  are  quite  a  number  of 
young  men  especially,  while  they  would  not  inaugurate  a  movement  of  the  kind  are 
always  ready  to  join  any  turbulent  outbreak  which  may  occur. 

3d.  That  if  any  question  should  arise  which  would  meet  the  united  opposition  of  the 
acne"8'  number  ot'  trool>»  posted  here  would  be  entirely  insufficient  to  defend  the 

The  leaders  of  this  outbreak  are  the  same  who  took  me  prisoner  last  fall  when  I  at 
tempted  to  count  their  lodges.     I  am  now  thoroughly  convinced  that  the  Government 
Jan  sately  trust  a  large  number  of  these  Indians  with  arms  to  defend  and  keep  order  at 
the  agency.     1  he  men  whom  I  depend  upon  for  this  were  not  present  when  the  out 
break  commenced.     Had  they  have  been  here  it  would  not  have  occurred.     I  would  re- 
ttully  suggest  that  several  of  the  Indian  soldiers  merit  a  recognition  from  the  Gov- 
•nment  for  the  firm  stand  they  have  taken  on  all  occasions  in  promoting  order  at  the 
ency,  and  the  courage  and  energy  with  which  they  faced  and  drove  back  the  hostile 
Indians  in   this  outbreak.     Many  of  the  northern  Indians  have  left  the  a-ency ;   how 
many  I  do  not  know. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Ar/ent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


THE  STAMPEDE,  OCTOBER,  1873. 
Agent  Xaville  io  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 

January  29,  1874. 

have  the  honor  herewith  respectfully  to  transmit  statement  of  beef-cattle 
t  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  fourth  quarter,  1873;  and  in  further  explanation 
would  respectfully  state  that  I  had  just  received  from  the  contractor  a  lar««-e  number 
ot  cattle  having  then  on  hand  about  600  head.  The  northern  Indians  were  comim-  in 
daily,  and  there  was  considerable  excitement  among  the  Indians  from  causes  explained 
in  my  report  for  September  and  October. 

The  night  of  the  9th  of  October  was  stormy,  and,  near  morning,  as  the  herders  state 
an  Indian  started  the  cattle,  and  about  200  of  them  were  stampeded  and  scattered  over 
the  country  Not  having  enough  horses  or  men  to  hold  the  herd  and- at  the  same  time 
recover  the  lost  cattle,  I  returned  the  cattle  oil  hand  to  the  contractor's  herd  takino- 
his  receipt  for  them.  I  started  the  herders  after  the  lost  cattle,  and  in  the  course  of 
three  weeks  they  recovered  all  but  67  head.  That  many  of  these  were  lost  I  charge 
to  the  neglect  of  the  chief  herder. 

A  question  arose  regarding  24  head,  the  chief  herder  claiming  that  in  one  lot  ho  had 

Bturned  40  head  ;  but  the  contractors  claimed  that  he  returned  but  15  head  in  the  lot 

named.     Subsequently,  Mr.  Heck,  a  freighter,  stated  that  the  herder  had   staid  at  his 

imp  the  night  before,  turning  the  cattle  into  the  herd,  and  that  he  had  but  15  head.     I 

was  therefore  compelled  to  accept  the  number  as  fifteen.     The  chief  herder  had  made 

ofTStv  8fcatement8  about  the  loss  of  tlie  cattle,  and  I  discharged  him  for  neglect 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

V.  S.  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


Statement  of  beef-cattle  lost  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  Z>.  T.,  during  the  fourth  quarter,  1873. 

October  9  two  hundred  head  of  beef-cattle  were  stampeded,  and  sixty-seven  head 
lost,  weighing  sixty-nine  thousand  eight  hundred  and  eighty-one  (69,881)  pounds  gross. 
I  certify  on  honor  that  the  above  statement  is  correct ;  that  the  number  of  cattle 
therein  stated  were  lost;  that  the  weight  had  been  obtained  by  killing  and  weighing 
twenty  (20)  head  of  an  average  size,  and  that  I  used  all  diligence  and  care  within  my 
power  to  prevent  such  loss. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
Unittd  Slates  Indian  Agent. 


THE  STAMPEDE,  SEPTEMBER,  1874. 

Agent  Sarille  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T., 

December  21,  1874. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  herewith  respectfully  to  transmit  the  affidavits  relative  to 
the  loss  of  cattle  from  the  agency-herd  and  their  return  to  the  contractor's  herd,  Sep 
tember  7,  1874. 

There  remain  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  head  unrecovered. 

Diligent  search  and  inquiry  have  been  made,  and  no  trace  of  them  can  be  found, 
except  the  trails  leading  to  the  contractor's  herd,  all  of  which  entered  the  herd  except 
a  trail  of  thirty  or  forty  head,  which  trail  was  lost  on  Snake  Creek,  and  there  is  no 
positive  evidence  that  it  entered  the  contractor's  herd.  Mr.  Bosler,  who  has  charge  of 
the  contractor's  herd,  returned  to  the  agency  one  hundred  and  fifty  head,  which  he 
acknowledged  to  have  returned  to  the  contractor's  herd. 

While  I  have  not,  and  cannot  get,  the  positive  evidence  that  the  whole  number  of 
cattle  lost  entered  the  contractor's  herd,  yet  the  circumstantial  evidence  leaves  scarcely 
a  doubt  that  they  did  so. 

I  respectfully  refer  the  matter  to  the  Department  for  settlement  with  the  con 
tractor,  or  instructions  as  to  how  I  shall  proceed  in  the  matter  in  the  absence  of  the 
contractor. 

Very  respectfully,  vour  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
U.  S.  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


Sworn  statement,  of  Sheridan  McBratnry* 

SIR  :  In  compliance  with  your  request,  I  herewith  respectfully  submit  a  statement  of 
facts  in  regard  to  the  loss"  of  cattle  from  the  agency-herd,  and  of  the  return  of  the 
same  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd,  near  Chimney  Rock,  on 'the  North  Platte  River,  from  which 
place  they  had  been  driven. 

Under  your  direction  I  took  charge  of  834  head  of  cattle,  near  the  agency-corral, 
at  dark,  on  the  7th  of  September,  and  with  but  two  men  started  to  take  them  to  the 
agency  cattle-range  on  White  River,  seven  miles  distance.  It  soon  became  dark,  and 
in  order  to  avoid  timber  and  brush — which  we  only  could  have  driven  cattle  through 
in  daylight — on  Dead  Man's  Creek,  which  must  necessarily  be  crossed,  were  compelled 
to  take  a  circuitous  route,  and  cross  Dead  Man  at  the  edge  of  the  bluffs. 

We  made  the  crossing  and  got  the  cattle  to  the  herd-camp,  as  we  imagined  at  the 
time,  all  right,  and  as  they  wore  very  wild,  I  did  not  want  to  round  them  up  and  count 
them  on  the  8th.  On  the  morning  of  the  9th  I  counted  the  cattle,  and  found  there 
were  284  head  missing. 

I  immediately  started  with  one  of  my  assistants,  Clemente  Bernard,  to  ascertain 
when  the  cattle  had  left  the  herd,  and  to  follow  and  recover  them,  if  possible.  We 
found  they  had  left  the  herd  when  we  had  crossed  Dead  Man's  Creek,  in  the  night,  and 
had  proceeded  up  the  creek  on  the  east  side  and  on  across  the  divide  in  a  southeastern 
direction,  striking  Running  Water  at  the  crossing  of  the  lower  road.  They  stopped 
to  feed  on  Running  Water  and  scattered  for  about  three  miles  along  the  stream,  and 
when  they  left  there  they  traveled  south  in  two  bodies,  one  going  by  the  wagon-road 


444 

and  the  other  three  mik-s  to  the  east.  The  west  trail  followed  the  road  to  the  crossino- 
of  Snake  Creek,  where  it  left  the  road  and  bore  east  toward  the  other  trail,  the  two 
trails  coming  together  ten  miles  north  of  the  North  Platte.  from  which  place  thev 
traveled  by  one  trail  into  Mr.  Bosler's  range. 

We  caught  up  with  the  cattle  as  they  were  mingling  with  300  of  Mr.  Bosler's  cattle 
which  had  gathered  on  a  creek  for  water. 

It  would  have  been  impossible  for  us  to  have  taken  all  of  the  cattle  we  had  lost 
from  among  Mr.  Bosler's,  and  I  at  first  thought  of  getting  tho  number  and  returningtothe 
agency  with  them,  but,  after  thinking  it  over,  I  knew  that  Mr.  Bosler  would  not  be 
satisfied,  and  concluded  to  go  to  Mr.  Bosler's  camp,  report  the  facts  to  his  man  in 
charge,  get  him  to  examine  the  trail,  and  then  let  Mr. 'Bosler  and  you  settle  it  as  inio-ht 
S3etn  best,  not  d  Mi^fcinjj  but  the  matter  would  ba  easily  adjusted. 

About  25  head  of  cattle  left  the  main  trail  near  the  wagon-road  crossing  of  Dead 
Man,  and  traveled  by  the  road  to  within  five  miles  of  Running  Water,  where  they  left 
the  road  and  traveled  in  a  southeastern  direction,  crossed  Running  Water,  and  again 
entered  one  of  the  main  trails  between  Running  Water  and  Snake  Creek.  About  30 
head  left  the  east  trail  near  Snake  Creek  and  followed  down  that  stream  seven  miles, 
where  they  left  the  creek,  from  which  we  were  unable  to  follow  them,  and  could  not 
determine  whether  they  had  returned  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  or  not. 

These  two  are  all  the  branch  trails  that  I  saw,  but  I  sent  Clemente  Barnard  to  the 
Platte  with  Mr.  G.  W.  Bosler  to  show  him  the  trails,  and  he  found  souie  other  signs,  of 
which  he  will  tell  in  his  statement. 

It  has  been  asserted  that  some  of  the  lost  cattle  died  on  Running  Water,  but  I  have 
examined  the  ground  carefully  where  they  are  said  to  have  died,  and  can  find  no  signs 
of  cattle  having  died  recently,  and  am  satisfied  that  the  assertion  is  without  founda 
tion. 

From  all  the  trail-signs  and  indications  that  could  be  found  I  am  satisfied  that  all 
the  cattle  except  those  which  went  down  Snake  Creek,  four  head,  which  were  returned, 
one  head  which  died  on  Dead  Man's  Creek,  and  one  head  which  remained  on  Running 
Water,  in  all  about  30  head,  returned  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd,  from  which  they  had  been 
driven. 

SHERIDAN  McBRATNEY,  Chief  Herder. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me,  and  in  my  presence,  this  20th  dajT  of  October, 
1874. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Affidavit  of  Clemente  Bernard. 

I,  Clemente  Bernard,  being  duly  sworn,  do  depose  and  say,  that  I  am  employed  at 
Red  Cloud  agency,  D.  T.,  and  that  on  or  about  the  9th  day  of  September,  A.  D".  1874, 
started  in  pursuit  of  284  head  of  beef-cattle,  lost  from  the  agency  herd. 

I  followed  two  trails  from  Dead  Man's  Creek  to  the  North  Platte  River;  at  that 
place  one  trail  went  to  the  left  and  the  other  one  to  the  right.  I  followed  the  left-hand 
trail  into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  ;  the  right-hand  trail  I  did  not  follow.  Beside  the  left-hand 
trail,  I  found  two  other  small  trails  going  into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd,  one  of  about  12  and 
the  other  of  about  15  head  of  cattle.  I  also  found  a  trail  on  Snake  Creek,  of  about  40 
head  of  cattle,  four  miles  from  the  road;  I  followed  it  six  miles,  until  it  went  into  the 
Sidney  road,  and  saw  a  good  many  fresh  horse-tracks  there ;  do  not  think  that  trail 
went  to  the  North  Platte. 

I  think  there  was  about  150  head  of  cattle  on  the  left-hand  trail,  which  went  from  the 
North  Platte  River  into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd.  On  this  trail  about  half  the  cattle  traveled 
in  the  road  and  about  one-half  outside  the  road.  From  what  I  have  seen  of  the  trails, 
&c.,  I  think  that  at  least  one  hundred  and  fifty  (150)  head  of  the  cattle  returned  to 
Mr.  Bosler's  herd,  if  not  more. 

his 

CLEMENTE   X  BERNARD, 
mark. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  and  in  mv  presence  this  28th  day  of  October. 
1874. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 


445 

Statement  of  beef-cattle  lost  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  D.  T.,  during  the  third  quarter,  1874. 

16  head  beef-cattle  ;  weight,  16,653.     (See  affidavit.) 
I  certify  on  honor  that  the  above  statement  is  correct. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Affidavit  of  Sheridan  MoBratney, 

I,  Sheridan  McBratuey,  being  duly  sworn,  do  depose  and  say,  that  I  am  employed  at 
Red  Cloud  agency,  D.  T.,  as  chief  herder,  by  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent, 
and  that  during  the  third  quarter,  1874,  the  following  losses  of  cattle  occured,  to  wit: 

Weight. 

July    8.  1  head  of  cattle  ran  off  by  Indians 1,  036 

11.  1  head  of  cattle  ran  off  by  Indians 1,036 

17.  1  head  of  cattle  ran  off  by  Indians 1,  036 

21.  1  head  of  cattle  died .   1,  021 

24.  1  head  of  cattle  died 1,  031 

Aug.  11.  1  head  of  cattle  ran  off  by  Indians 1,047 

11.  2  head  of  cattle  killed  by  Indians 2,095 

12.  1  head  of  cattle  died 1,047 

13.  3  head  of  cattle  killed  by  Indians 3, 142 

19.  2  head  of  cattle  killed  and  run  off  by  Indians 2,  095 

Sept.    9.  1  head  of  cattle  died 1,038 

9.  1  head  of  cattle  ran  off  by  Indians 1,  039 

16  head;  weight 16,653 

And  I  do  further  depose  and  say,  that  said  sixteen  head  of  cattle  were  lost,  killed,  and 
died  as  above  stated,  and  that  said  losses  occurred  through  no  fault  or  neglect  on  the 
part  of  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent,  or  of  any  person  or  persons  having 
charge  of  said  cattle. 

SHERIDAN  McBRATNEY, 

Chief  Herder. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  and  in  iny  presence  this  26th  day  of  October, 
1874. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  Slates  Indian  Agent. 


Affidavits  of  S.  MoBratney  and  C.  Bernard. 

We,  Sheridan  McBratuey  and  Clemente  Bernard,  being  duly  sworn,  do  depose  and 
say,  that  we  are  employed  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  D.  T.,  by  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States 
Indian  agent,  as  chief  herder  and  herder,  respectively,  and  that  during  the  night  of  Sep 
tember  7,  1874,  there  was  lost  from  the  agency  beef-herd  (284)  two  hundred  and  eighty- 
four  head  of  beef-cattle;  that  after  diligent  and  careful  search  (156)  one  hundred  and 
fifty-six  head  of  said  cattle  were  recovered  ;  that  all  efforts  to  recover  the  remaiaing 
(128)  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  head  have  proved  unsuccessful,  and  that  the  loss 
of  said  128  head  of  beef-cattle  occurred  through  no  fault  or  neglect  on  the  part  of  any 
person  or  persons. 

SHERIDAN  McBRATNEY. 

bis 
CLMENTE  +  BERNARD. 

mark. 
Witness : 
JAMES  ROBERTS. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  and  in  my  presence  this  10th  day  of  November, 
A.  D.  1874. 

J.  S.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

SIR:  After  diligent  search  ar.d  inquiry,  I  have  been  unable  to  trace  or  find  any  of 
the  cattle  lost  on  September  7,  It74,  except  what  went  to  Mr.  hosier's  herd.  He  admits, 
on  the  statements  of  his  herders,  that  a  hundred  and  fifty  returned  to  the  herd.j/fhat 


446 

number  be  lias  returned,  and  I  have  taken  them  upon  my  papers.  I  shall  take  further 
evidence  in  the  case,  and  Mr.  Bosler  agrees  to  count  his  cattle  as  soon  as  practicable, 
and  should  he  find  more  than  the  above  one  hundred  and  fifty  head,  he  will  return 
them.  If  any  other  proceeding  is  necessary,  in  the  opinion  of  the  Department,  I  re 
spectfully  request  instructions  to  that  effect. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  Stales  Indian  Af/cnt. 
HOD.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  JTairs. 


MONTHLY  REPORT  FOR  OCTOBER,  1873. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  Xovemler  1,  1873. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  report  that  since  my  last  monthly  report  that 
I  have  finished  the  distribution  of  annuity  goods  to  the  Sioux.  There  was  much  dis 
satisfaction,  even  among  the  best  disposed,  at  the  poor  quality  of  the  goods  and  deficient 
quantity,  there  being  a  much  larger  number  of  Indians  than  usual  at  the  agency. 
Subsequently  a  large  number  of  Miuneconjoux,  Uncpapas,  and  No  Bows  came,  and  was 
much  disappointed  to  find  no  goods  for  them,  and  especially  guns,  which  they  had  been 
informed  were  promised  them.  Several  attempts  were  made  to  break  into  the  ware 
house  where  the  goods  for  the  Cheyenne  and  Arapahoes  were  stored,  they  not  having 
yet  come  in.  Lone  Horn,  a  chief  of  the  No  Bows,  came  in  with  about  forty  lodges  of 
people.  Altogether  there  was  probably  between  two  and  three  hundred  lodges.  They 
reported,  however,  a  much  larger  number,-  and  being  satisfied  that  they  \vere  making  a 
false  report,  I  made  an  attempt  to  count  their  lodges.  For  that  purpose,  in  company 
with  the  interpreter,  I  rode  eight  miles  up  White  River,  and  crossed  over  to  the  north 
side,  which  the  Indians  had  prohibited.  The  northern  Indians,  hearing  of  this,  came 
in  full  force  to  the  agency,  and  sent  a  party  after  me  with  orders  to  shoot  my  horse. 
On  overtaking  me  I  was  informed  of  this.  1  told  him. that  it  was  the  Great  Father's 
horse,  and  if  he  thought  it  safe  to  shoot  it,  to  do  so.  He  said  he  had  concluded  not  to 
shoot  him,  but  fired  his  gun  in  the  air.  When  I  arrived  at  the  agency  I  found  a  large 
party  of  the  strangers,  headed  by  Big  Little  Man  and  Pretty  Bear,  two  rather  notedly 
vicious  characters.  I  sat  down  in  front  of  my  office,  and  one  of  them,  in  a  rather  per 
emptory  manner,  ordered  me  to  come  to  where  they  were,  a  distance  of  one  hundred 
yards.  I  told  him  if  they  had  anything  to  say  to  me  to  come  in  front  of  my  office  and 
say  it.  About  two  hundred  of  them  came  in  front  of  me,  and  at  the  same  time  I  saw 
that  a  large  number  of  Little  Wound's  band  had  come  up  on  horseback  to  the  left,  and 
Red  Cloud  on  horseback,  with  his  gun  before  him,  on  the  right.  One  of  the  strangers 
harangued  them,  from  which  I  soon  found  that  Red  Cloud  and  his  followers  and  Little 
Wound's  men  had  appeared  there  to  sustain  me,  and  gave  no  sympathy  to  the  strangers. 
After  that  Red  Dog  stepped  out  and  made  a  speech  defending  me,  and  advocating  the 
counting  of  their  lodges.  And  after  some  violent  and  threatening  speeches 'they 
mounted  their  horses  and  rode  off.  I  failed  to  get  the  correct  number  of  lodges,  but 
have  set  on  foot  a  movement  which  I  hope  will  result  in  obtaining  a  correct  report  of 
them.  In  this  Red  Cloud,  Little  Wound,  and  Red  Dog  have  promised  to  assist  me. 
On  account  of  the  increased  number  to  feed,  and  undoubtedly  some  fraud  on  their  part 
as  to  their  numbers,  I  have  not  been  able  to  get  a  full  supply  of  commissary-stores, 
and  therefore  the  issue  of  different  articles  are  irregular  in  quantity,  being  without 
some  one  article  every  issue-day. 

About  two  hundred  head  of  cattle  was  run  off  by  the  Indians,  as  alleged  by  the  herd 
ers.  They  are  scattered  through  the  hills,  and  I  have  the  herders  out  gathering  them 
together.  I  have  comparatively  little  trouble  with  herd  until  since  the  northern 
Indians  came  in.  I  found  much  difficulty  in  getting  the  Cheyennes  to  the  agency,  and 
of  the  Arapahoes  but  twenty-five  lodges  have  come  in.  There  has  been  a  difficulty 
between  the  Sioux  and  Arapahoes,  one  of  the  latter  having  been  killed  by  a  Sioux'; 
they,  therefore,  will  not  come  to  the  agency.  I  gave  the  Cheyennes  their  goods,  and 
distributed  a  portion  of  the  Arapahoe  goods  here,  retaining  a  portion  for  those  who 
have  not  yet  come  in.  With  much  difficulty  I  started  the  Cheyenne  and  Arapahoe 
delegation  from  the  agency  on  the  30th  instant,  ten  Cheyenues  and  five  Arapahoes 
forming  the  party. 

The  work  on  the  agency -buildings  progresses  rather  slowly,  the  mill  not  being  of 
sufficient  capacity  to  furnish  but  from  two  to  three  thousand  feet  of  lumber  per  day. 

The  workmen  are  engaged  in  putting  on  the  roof  on  the  main  warehouse,  and  the 
stockade  is  nearly  completed. 


447 

The  barn  is  inclosed,  and  bay  received  just  in  time  to  escape  the  prairie-fires,  the 
Indians  having  burnt  the  prairie  to  the  north  and  east  of  the  agency  ;  whether  by  acci 
dent  or  on  purpose,  I  do  not  know. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Ay  eat. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


MONTHLY  REPORT  FOR  NOVEMBER,  1873. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T.,  November  30,  1873. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  report  that  on  the  2d  of  November,  as  a  party 
of  the  employes  were  entering  the  mess-room,  a  boy  about  fifteen  years  of  age,  son  of 
Bad  Hand,  rode  up  and  shot  an  arrow  into  the  back  of  Allen  Evens,  a  carpenter.  A 
number  of  Indians  were  about  the  agency,  and  immediately  a  party,  led  by  a  soldier, 
Sitting  Bull,  gave  chase,  fired,  several  shots  at  the  boy,  compelling  him  to  take  refuge 
\vith  the  chief  High  Wolf. 

Great  excitement  existed  about  the  agency  for  a  few  days,  but  the  chiefs  Red  Cloud, 
Red.  Dog,  and.  many  of  the  soldiers  remained  about  the  agency  and.  restored,  quiet. 
They  held  a  council,  and.  decided,  that  the  father  of  the  boy  should  give  the  wounded 
man  two  horses,  which  was  done.  The  wound  proved  to  be  not  serious. 

The  northern  or  hostile  Indians  have  given  a  great  deal  of  annoyance,  interrupting 
•workmen  in  their  labor,  and  causing  disturbance  at  the  time  of  issuing  beef-cattle. 
These  people  are  beginning  to  leave  for  the  north,  and  part  of  Little  Wound's  band 
have  gone  south  to  hunt.  This  has  enabled  the  acting  agent  to  reduce  somewhat  the 
issue  of  beef.  The  supply  of  other  articles  of  food  has  not  been  in  proportion  to  that 
of  beef,  because  there  has  not  been  enough  transported  to  meet  the  demand.  This  has 
caused  a  greater  demand  of  beef  than  would  have  been  the  case  had  we  have  had  a 
full  supply  of  other  rations. 

The  acting  agent  has  succeeded  in  getting  a  correct  enumeration  of  the  Cheyennes 
now  at  the  ageuey.  They  are  divided  into  two  bauds.  "  Dull  Knife's,"  now  "Little 
Wolf's,"  band  have  185  lodges,  in  which  are  264  families  of  1,287  persons;  "  Turkey 
Leg's"  band  have  49  lodges,  in  which  are  102  families  of  613  persons.  There  has  been 
issued  to  them  one  hundred  and  forty-five  thousand  pounds  gross  of  beef. 

This  camp  has  been  visited  several  times  by  the  acting  agent,  and  he  finds  that  they 
use  every  part  of  the  beef,  even  to  the  head  and  feet,  and  they  break  the  bones  and 
boil  them.  Of  other  material  they  have  received  about  two-thirds  rations.  This  is 
evidently  not  enough  food  for  them.  They  complain  bitterly  of  not  having  enough  to 
eat ;  and  I  am  satisfied  that  it  is  so.  On  the  4th  of  November,  after  the  departure 
of  "Dull  Knife"  and  his  party,  the  Cheyennes  met  in  council  and  deposed  "Dull 
Knife,"  and  appointed  "Little  Wolf"  to  be  chief  in  his  place.  They  told  the  acting 
agent  that  they  would  not  regard  any  treaty  that  might  be  made  by  the  party  going 
to  Washington.  There  have  vbeeu  some  horses  stolen  from  freighters  by  the  hostile 
Indians,  and  one  horse  stolen  and  one  pair  of  oxen  killed  belonging  to  Mr.  Hillman, 
who  has  been  cutting  logs  for  Mr.  E.  Coffey.  "Little  Wound"  ascertained  that  the 
cattle  were  killed  by  some  one  of  his  band,  and  came  in  and  reported  it,  and  told  us  to 
deduct  two  beeves  from  their  allowance. 

The  contractor  supplying  lumber  has  failed  to  supply  logs  enough  to  keep  the  mill 
going.     Consequently  the  buildings  have  progressed  slowly. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Ayent. 


MONTHLY  REPORT  EOR  DECEMBER,  1873. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  December  31,  1873. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  report,  that  on  my  return  from  Washington  I 
arrived  at  the  agency  December  15.  I  found  the  Indians  complaining,  irritable,  and 
troublesome,  making  unreasonable  demands,  such  as  pay  for  the  timber  cut  at  the 
saw-mill,  and  immediate  opening  of  trade  in  ammunition,  and  increase  in  their  rations. 
Some  had  gone  out  hunting,  but  these  were  mostly  men,  they  leaving  their  families  at 
the  agency.  Also,  some  of  the  northern  Indians  had  gone,  but  their  representative 
men  remained  ;  and  although  I  have  been  enabled  to  reduce  the  amount  of  food  issued, 
it  has  been  done  in  a  purely  arbitrary  way,  giving  them  about  the  amount  I  thought 
right  for  them.  In  some  cases  no  doubt  injustice  is  done,  but,  as  they  will  not  give  me 


448 

an  opportunity  to  know  the  facts  I  shall  continue,  as  far  as  possible,  to  reduce  the 
issue  in  the  same  way. 

For  a  detailed  statement  of  efforts  to  enroll  these  Indians,  I  respectfully  refer  you  to 
my  report  of  a  council  held  at  this  agency  December  '25.  I  have  been  compelled  to 
permit  the  sale  of  a  small  portion  of  ammunition  to  the  Indians  for  the  purpose  of 
killing  their  beeves.  To  explain  why  a  considerable  amount  of  ammunition  is  required 
for  the  purpose  I  will  state  that,  as  the  cattle  are  issued  from  the  corral,  the  Indians 
start  on  a  chase,  horseback,  and  shoot  them  down  on  the  prairie,  making  many  inef 
fectual  shots  before  bringing  them  down.  It  is  estimated  that  from  eight  to  ten  shots 
are  expended  for  every  beef  killed. 

The  whole  amount  permitted  to  be  sold  is  five  thousand  (5,000)  rounds. 

I  neglected  to  state  in  November  report  that  of  the  cattle  which  were  stampeded  in 
October  all  were  recovered  but  sixty-seven  (07)  head.  A  detailed  statement  will 
accompany  my  quarterly  returns. 

It  has  been  difficult  to  get  efficient  employe's,  and  some  of  the  best  have  left  on 
account  of  fear  of  the  Indians.  This  has  caused  many  changes  in  list  of  employes. 

The  agency  buildings  are  nearly  completed,  and,  with  good  weather,  will  be  com 
pleted  in  the  course  of  four  or  six  weeks.  When  the  log-contractor  failed,  I  sent  the 
mill  hands  into  the  woods  to  cut  logs  and  get  them  in  with  the  agency-teams,  thus 
keeping  the  mill  going  about  half  the  time.  By  this  means  I  shall  be  able  to  get 
out  enough  lumber  to  finish  the  buildings  now  in  course  of  erection. 

The  number  of  Indians  reported  here  by  themselves,  and  claiming  rations,  are  more 
than  double  that  estimated  in  purchase  of  supplies.  The  average  number  to  whom  ra 
tions  have  been  issued  is  about  double  the  number  estimated  for,  or  thirteen  thousand. 
To  this  number  there  has  been  issued  a  full  ration  of  beef  and  about  three-fourths 
rations  of  other  supplies. 

Of  the  short  supply  the  Indians  make  little  or  no  complaint,  except  that  of  bacon 
and  sugar,  and  even  for  this  they  would  willingly  take  its  equivalent  in  beef,  making 
it  their  entire  living.  In  controlling  these  Indians,  I  find  a  difficulty  that  does  not 
exist,  perhaps,  to  the  same  extent  at  any  other  agency.  The  Ogallallas  are  divided  into 
eight  bands,  headed  by  as  many  chiefs  of  more  or  less  influence,  but  none  of  them  hav 
ing  power  to  control  his  own  band,  much  less  others.  These  chiefs  are  all  jealous  and 
ambitious,  and  consequently  anything  which  may  be  advocated  by  one  is  sure  to  meet 
opposition  by  the  others.  There  are  no  fixed  laws  or  principles  of  action  among  them, 
but  when  anything  arises  of  sufficient  general  interest  to  require  a  concert  of  action  it 
is  met  by  a  law  made  for  the  emergency  by  the  soldiers  and  executed  by  them.  Such 
laws  are  the  expression  of  the  prejudice,  caprice,  or  outside  influence  upon  the  soldiers. 
Consequently  the  chiefs  court  the  soldiers,  and  never  act  in  opposition  to  their  wishes. 
Some  of  the  head  soldiers,  as  they  are  called,  have  offered  to  count  the  lodges  if  I  will 
grant  them  certain  favors,  but  I  find  them  unreliable,  and  if  we  have  to  have  martial 
law,  I  would  prefer  that  of  our  own  soldiers.  As  far  as  I  can  learn,  there  is  probably 
no  actual  head  chief,  unless  it  be  Mau-Afraid-of-his-Horso.  He  is  the  oldest  chief,  and 
by  many  members  of  all  the  bands  is  recognized  as  the  head  chief,  though  when  these 
men  are  asked  about  it  they  always  add  cautiously,  "the  whites  have  made  Red  Cloud 
head  chief,  and  of  course  we  look  upon  him  as  our  chief."  This  want  of  a  recognized 
central  authority  is  the  initial  difficulty  in  organizing  them,  and  if  one  can^pt  be  made 
so  among  themselves,  the  Government  must  supply  it,  and  that  will  require  force. 
These  remarks  I  have  thrown  into  this  report  as  pertinent  to  the  question  iio\v  at  issue 
of  the  course  to  be  pursued  with  this  people. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


MONTHLY  REPORT  FOR  JANUARY,  1874. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  January  31,  1874. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  report  that  the  temper  of  the  Indians  at  this 
agency  has  undergone  but  little  change  during  the  month.  I  have  steadily  and  firrnly 
pressed  upon  them  the  demand  to  permit  me  to  number  them.  This  has  tended  to 
excite  the  more  evil  disposed,  and  they  have  consequently  given  me  considerable  annoy 
ance.  Every  issue  of  beef  several  beeves  have  been  .shot  down  before  entering  the 
corral,  and  toward  the  last  of  the-  issue  a  number  of  Indians,  usually  those  whose 
names  were  not  on  the  list,  would  rush  in  and  shoot  six  or  eight  beeves  in  the  corral. 
Then  those  who  were  entitled  to  them  would  come  to  me  and  demand  their  beef.  This 
keeps  up  a  state  of  excitement  and  contention.  I  have  also  been  annoyed  by  children 


449 

and  boys  from  fifteen  to  twenty  years  of  age  about  the  agency  stealing  the  carpenter's 
tools  and  other  small  articles  and  breaking  the  glass  from  the  windows.  I  called  the 
chiefs  and  headmen,  and  told  them  very  positively,  that  I  would  not  submit  to  this 
longer,  and  if  they  would  not  protect  me  and  stop  these  proceedings  I  should  call  for 
troops  to  do  it.  They  promised  me  that  they  would  do  so.  Since  that  the  anuo3Tances 
from  children  and  boys  have  in  a  great  measure  ceased,  and  Face,  head  soldier  of  the 
Omaha  band,  came  to  me  and  informed  me  to  notify  him  when,  cattle  were  to  be 
brought  in  and  they  would  protect  them. 

The  source  of  most  of  the  difficulties  at  this  agency  is  the  system  adopted  at  its 
first  establishment  of  permitting  Indians  to  report  the  number  of  their  lodges  and  issu 
ing  to  them  on  their  word.  They  soon  discovered  the  advantage  it  gave  them  to  con 
ceal  the  true  number  and  make  a  false  statement.  This  has  now  become  an  organized 
resistance  to  counting  them,  and  no  one,  however  well  disposed,  has  the  courage  to  tell 
the  truth  regarding  his  neighbor.  In  every  instance  where  an  Indian  has  told  me  of 
one  who  was  drawing  for  more  than  the  true  number  of  lodges,  on  investigation  I 
have  found  that  he  has  told  me  a  falsehood,  and  that  he  has  been  instigated  to  do  so  from 
revenge  or  malice.  Could  I  once  overcome  this  difficulty,  I  should  be  in  a  position  to 
control  all  others. 

Until  this  is  done,  I  can  have  but  little  influence  for  good  among  them.  I  still  think 
that  if  this  can  be  done  without  a  military  force,  it  will  be  better  for  the  Indians 
and  for  the  Government.  I  have  told  them  that  their  allowance  of  food  for  this  year  is 
nearly  exhausted ;  that  I  will  make  no  further  effort  to  get  anything  more  for  them  or 
do  anything  for  them  until  they  .permit  me  to  count  them  ;  I  have  also  told  them  that 
the  Government  will  certainly  send  a  military  force  here  to  count  them  unless  they  do 
it  voluntarily.  They  are  now  holding  councils  among  themselves  daily,  and  the  pros 
pect  seems  somewhat  more  favorable  to  accomplish  this  very  desirable  object.  About 
the — of  December  ultimo,  a  party  of  Minneconjoux  stole  twenty-eight  head  of  horses 
from  Mr.  Bosler.  A  party  from  this  and  Whetstone  agencies  pursued  them  as  far  as 
the  mouth  of  Powder  River,  where  the  main  body  of  the  Miuneconjoux  are  camped. 
No  Flesh,  leader  of  the  pursuing  party,  reported  to  me  that  the  Minneconjoux  said  that 
the  horses  had  been  taken  farther  north,  but  that  they  would  recover  them  and  return 
them  as  soon  as  they  were  done  hunting  buffalo  for  the  season.  They  also  sent  word 
that  they  were  all  coming  down  to  see  me,  and  see  what  the  Government  would  do 
for  them. 

Eight  horses  were  stolen  from  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  at  the  Platte  River.  Red  Leaf 
brought  in  six  of  them,  and  said  that  the  other  two  were  in  the  possession  of  twoyoung 
men,  who  refused  to  give  them  up,  threatening  to  kill  a  white  man  if  they  were  taken 
from  them.  He  said  that  he  did  not  take  them  for  fear  they  would  carry  out  their 
threat,  but  would  try  and  get  them  if  he  could.  A  band  of  twenty-five  lodges  of 
Arapahoes,  led  by  Spotted  Wolf,  has  gone  south.  Sixty  lodges  have  come  to  the 
agency.  I  went  to  their  camp  and  counted  them.  There  are  nine  hundred  and  sixty- 
three  people,  in  ninety-six  lodges.  There  are  from  two  to  four  families  in  every  lodge. 
A  great  many  of  those  arriving  have  only  their  lodge-poles,  the  covering  having  been 
worn  out.  Black  Coal,  now  camped  near  Fort  Fetterman,  has  sent  a  runner  to  me  to 
ask  the  terms  that  the  Government  offer  for  them  to  move.  I  have  sent  a  small  portion 
of  ammunition  as  a  present,  and  some  sugar  and  coffee  to  him,  and  asked  him  to  come 
down  and  see  me.  By  putting  the  mill-hands  into  the  woods  to  get  out  logs  I 
have  succeeded  in  getting  lumber  enough  to  inclose  the  buildings  that  have  been  com 
menced.  The  warehouse,  barn,  office,  men's  quarters,  and  mess-room  are  inclosed,  and 
roofed  with  tarred  paper,  which  will  serve  to  keep  the  snow  out,  but  they  will  have  to 
be  shingled  before  the  spring-rains  begin.  The  offices,  quarters,  and  rness-rooui  are 
lined  with  rough  boards,  but  are  comfortable.  The  stockade  only  requires  battening 
to  complete  it.  I  have  suspended  building  operations  for  the  winter,  but  will  require 
two  carpenters  for  inside  work  for  a  few  weeks  yet.  I  shall  set  the  mill-hands  to  get 
ting  out  shingle-timber  and  make  up  shingles  for  the  buildings  as  soon  as  a  cut-off 
saw  can  be  obtained. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Ayent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


ANNUAL  REPORT  FOR  1874. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  DAKOTA,  August  31,  1874. 

SIK  :  In  submitting  this  my  first  annual  report,  I  labor  under  some  embarrassment  to 
avoid  prolixity,  the  operations  and  changes  at  this  agency  having  been  so  many  and 
rapid. 

29  I  F 


450 

On  the  8th  of  August,  187:},  I  arrived  at  Cheyenne  and  assumed  the  duties  of  agent, 
relieving  J.  W.  Daniels,  United  States  Indian  inspector.  On  my  arrival  at  the  agency 
I  found  Mr.  Darnels  with  seven  or  eight  thousand  Indians  just  arrived  ou  the  banks  of 
White  Kiver,  having  removed  the  agency  from  the  Platte.  The  commissary-stores 
and  building-material  of  the  agency  were  piled  upon  the  ground,  covered  with  paulins, 
while  th-  agent's  quarters  were  in  a  tent.  As  soon  as  the  transfer  of  property  was 
completed,  Mr.  Daniels  and  his  clerk  left.  Inexperienced  in  this  business  myself,  and 
and  having  no  one  familiar  with  the  forms  of  the  business,  and  without  papers,  books, 
or  instructions  for  guides,  I  was  left  in  a  sufficiently  embarrassing  position  to  undertake 
so  complicated  a  business. 

The  Indians  were  much  dissatisfied  with  the  removal  of  the  agency  on  account  of  an 
alleged  promise  of  guns  and  horses  made  them  on  condition  that  they  would  remove 
the  agency  to  its  present  location.  They  were  disposed  to  be  insolent  and  unreason 
able,  placing  limits  to  the  range  of  travel  of  the  agent  and  employe's.  My  situation 
was  complicated  by  a  difficulty  between  the  trader  and  the  Indians,  they  having  de 
stroyed  a  keg  of  whisky  for  the  trader  in  front  of  the  agent's  office.  This  violation  of 
Department  regulations  could  not  be  overlooked,  and,  with  the  approval  of  the  Depart- 
in  ent,  I  revoked  his  license. 

The  necessity  for  shelter  for  the  winter  was  urgent.  A  contract  to  supj  l\r  logs  for 
sawing  was  let,  and  for  a  time  building  progressed  favorably ;  but  before  the  buildings 
were  completed  the  contractor  failed,  and  I  was  compelled  *to  occupy  buildings  barely 
sufficient  for  protection  during  the  winter. 

Toward  the  last  of  September,  when  the  annuity-goods  were  to  be  distributed,  a 
large  number  of  Indians  from  the  northern  tribes  of  Minueconjoux,  San  Arcs,  Out-papas, 
and  Onkapa  band  of  Ogallallas,  who  have  never  acceded  tolhe  treaty  of  1868,  and  there 
fore  termed  hostile,  came  into  the  agency,  increasing  the  number  to  be  "ed  to  more 
than  double  that  for  whom  supplies  had  been  provided. 

Many  of  these  people  had  never  been  to  an  agency  before,  and  were  exceedingly  vicious 
and  insolent.  They  made  unreasonable  demands  for  food,  and  supplemented  their  de 
mands  with  threats.  They  resisted  every  effort  to  count  them,  and  as  their  statements 
of  their  numbers  were  frequently  exaggerated,  it  became  necessary  to  arbitrarily  re 
duce  their  rations,  forming  my  estimates  of  their  numbers  from  the'best  information  I 
could  obtain.  This  caused  a  constant  contention  with  them  ;  and  being  unprotected, 
I  was  compelled  to  talk  with  them  from  morning  till  night.  On  one  occasion,  when 
attempting  to  count  their  lodges,  I  was  arrested  by  some  three  hundred  of  these  wild 
fellows  and  returned  to  the  agency  for  trial;  but  of  the  older  residents  of  the  agency 
about  seven  hundred,  armed  and  mounted,  came  to  my  relief  and  protected  me. 

While  thus  standing  day  after  day  with  my  life  at  stake,  contending  with  these  In 
dians  for  a  just  distribution  of  the  food  given  them  by  the  Government,  serious  charges 
were  brought  against  me  by  parties  who  should  have  been  my  friends  and  supporters 
instead  of  persecutors.  This  greatly  increased  the  difficulties  under  which  I  labored. 
But,  thanks  to  the  consideration  of  the  Department,  an  investigation  committee  was 
ordered,  which  fully  vindicated  me. 

The  dissatisfaction  of  the  hostile  Indians  became  greater  as  winter  advanced.  Unable 
to  induce  them  to  comply  with  the  orders  of  the  Government  for  a  census  to  be  taken, 
I  appealed  to  those  who  had  lived  long  enough  at  the  agency  to  understand  the  neces 
sity  of  a  compliance  with  these  orders,  and  about  the  1st  of  February  they  declared  in 
favor  of  yielding  to  my  direction  in  all  matters  pertaining  to  the  business  of  the  agency. 
This  exasperated  the  hostiles,  and  immediately  they  broke  up  into  small  war-parties, 
going  off  in  all  directions,  and  attacking  all  parties  who  were  not  strong  enough  to 
oppose  them.  On  the  8th  of  February  I  went  to  Whetstone  agency,  for  the  purpose  of 
consulting  Agent  Howard  in  regard  to  the  propriety  of  calling  for  troops.  That  night, 
about  2  o'clock,  the  watchman  having  fallen  asleep,  a  Minneconjoux  Indian,  belonging 
to  the  baud  of  "  Lone  Horn  of  the  North,"  scaled  the  stockade,  and  calling  my  clerk, 
Frank  D.  Appleton,  to  the  door,  shot  and  killed  him.  The  Indian  escaped.  Agent 
Howard  called  for  the  troops,  and,  as  my  employes  were  much  alarmed,  I  joined  in  the 
request.  On  arrival  of  the  troops  there  was  much  excitement.  All  of  the  hostile  and 
many  of  the  resident  Indians  left  the  agency  for  the  north.  The  excitement,  however, 
soon  subsided,  and  I  commenced  a  registration  of  the  people,  which  they  had  pre 
viously  consented  to.  Since  this  has  been  accomplished  there  has  been  little  or  no  diffi 
culty,  as  they  readily  comply  with  almost  any  request  I  make.  During  the  summer 
those  previously  living  at  the  agency  have  returned. 

The  agency-buildings  erected  are  a  stockake  10  feet  high,  inclosing  a  space  200  by 
400  feet ;  a  warehouse  100  by  30  feet,  with  an  "  L  "  60  by  30 ;  a  barn  100  by  30  feet ; 
three  offices  16  feet  square  ;  4  rooms  16  feet  square  for  employe's'  quarters ;  a  mess-house 
16  by  30  feet ;  an  agent's  residence  25  by  30,  two  stories  high. 

The  saw-mill  was  first  placed  in  the  timber  about  ten  miles  from  the  agency,  but  in 
consequence  of  the  hostile  attitude  of  the  Indians,  for  greater  security,  I  had  it  moved 
nearer  the  agency,  on  \Vhite  River.  It  has  been  set  for  running  with  a  temporary 
structure  over  it.  I  have  also  constructed  a  dam  on  White  Kiver,  and  have  made 


451 

about  one  mile  and  a  half  of  irrigation-ditch.     This  ditch  can  be  extended  to  irrigate 
some  5,000  acres  of  lauds. 

On  arrival  at  the  agency,  I  found  the  Indians  had  a  very  exalted  idea  of  their  abil 
ity  to  resist  the  Government  and  compel  a  compliance  with  their  wishes.  I  repeat 
edly  called  their  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  buffalo  were  almost  all  destroyed,  and 
as  soon  as  they  were  gone  the  Indians  would  be  helpless.  Red  Cloud  sent  messengers 
through  the  Powder  River  and  Big  Horn  country,  and  convinced  himself  that  there 
was  not  game  enough  to  sustain  them  through  a  war ;  they  now  have  a  better 
understanding  of  their  situation,  and  are  making  efforts  to  adapt  themselves  to  the 
changed  conditions.  In  the  spring  a  general  council  of  all  the  bands  was  held, 
at  which  they  resolved  to  protect  any  one  who  wished  to  go  to  farming  ;  whereupon 
twenty-five  persons  made  application  for  assistance  to  commence.  Not  having  procured 
any  implements  for  this  agency,  I  borrowed  some  plows  of  Agent  Howard,  and 
broke  about  30  acres,  in  small  patches,  which  were  planted  by  the  Indians  ;  it,  how 
ever,  was  too  late  in  the  season  for  crops  to  mature,  yet  it  served  to  demonstrate  the 
fertility  of  the  soil  wherever  it  can  be  irrigated.  The  demands  for  assistance  to  farm 
are  greater  than  means  at  my  disposal  will  supply.  Within  twenty  miles  of  the  agency 
there  are  about  50,000  acres  of  laud  which  can  be  irrigated,  yet  agriculture  cannot  be 
depended  upon  as  a  means  for  support  of  these  Indians.  The  valley  of  White  River 
and  adjacent  hills  produce  a  fine  grass,  and  the  country  is  well  adapted  to  grazing; 
stock-raising  must  be  the  main  pursuit  in  this  country;  especially  is  it  adapted  to 
sheep-culture.  I  believe  the  Indians  would  more  readily  learn  to  care  for  sheep  than 
any  other  kind  of  stock.  Next  in  importance  is  the  breeding  of  horses  and  mules ;  they 
have  over  10,000  horses,  mostly  of  inferior  size  and  quality,  but  by  improving  the 
stock  with  some  good  blooded  horses,  a  hardy  and  valuable  breed  might  be  produced. 

No  missionary  or  educational  work  has  yet  been  done  among  these  Indians,  but 
preparations  are  now  making  to  build  a  school-house  and  establish  a  school.  Not  more 
than  a  dozen,  perhaps,  of  these  Indians  have  ever  attempted  manual  labor,  yet  such  is 
their  eagerness  to  commence  some  industrial  pursuit  that  I  consider  the  prospect  for 
their  civilization  very  flattering. 

Indians  have  great  respect  for  authority,  and  strictly  observe  any  law  enacted  by  a 
recognized  authority  ;  they  are  easily  governed  when  one  has  the  power  to  enforce  his 
orders;  among  themselves  there  is  comparatively  little  disturbance  or  quarreling.  I 
would  respectfully  suggest  that  it  would  greatly  facilitate  the  administration  of  justice 
and  promote  order,  if  there  was  established  a  court  for  trial  and  means  for  punishment 
of  criminals  at  the  agencies.  If  there  was  a  court  at  this  agency  for  their  trial,  I  have 
no  doubt  that  the  criminals  whom  the  Indians  now  refuse  to  surrender  would  be  deliv 
ered  into  my  hands.  They  say  it  is  simply  sending  them  to  their  deaths  to  send  them 
to  Fort  Laramie  or  Cheyenne  for  trial. 

A  strip  of  country  along  the  valleys  of  the  White  River  and  Running  Water,  for  a 
hundred  miles  east  from  the  east  line  of  Wyoming,  and  fifty  miles  wide,  north  and 
south,  embraces  all  the  land  of  any  value  for  agriculture  or  grazing  in  the  Southwest 
Dakota  and  Northwest  Nebraska.  This  land  is  mostly  in  Nebraska,  and  therefore  out 
of  the  Sioux  reservation.  If  the  Indians  are  removed  to  their  reservation,  all  hope 
of  civilizing  them  or  making  them  self-supporting  is  gone,  as  there  is  no  place 
on  their  reservation  where  any  number  of  them  could  make  a  living.  It  is  therefore 
the  interest  of  both  the  Government  and  the  Indians  that  the  treaty  of  1868  be  revised, 
and  the  valleys  set  apart  as  a  reservation  for  the  Indians.  In  this  connection,  also,  a 
release  of  the  unceded  portion  of  Wyoming  and  Nebraska  could  be  obtained. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


SPECIAL  REPORT— ARRIVAL  OF  PROFESSOR  MARSH. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  DAK.,  November  30,  1874. 

SIR  :  At  the  close  of  my  last  report,  the  Indians  were  deliberating  over  the  demand 
for  them  to  submit  to  a  count.  Some  idea  of  the  agitation  caused  by  this  demand  may 
be  had  from  the  fact  that  they  were  in  consultation  in  the  different  camps  almost  con 
stantly,  day  and  night,  for  more  than  a  week.  Night  councils  are  very  unusual  among 
these  Indians,  and  are  held  only  on  occasions  of  importance. 

On  the  night  of  the  4th  instant,  about  10  o'clock,  I  was  sent  for  by  Red  Cloud.  I 
found  assembled  the  principal  chiefs  of  the  different  bands.  Red  Cloud  reproached  me 
for  the  course  I  had  pursued,  and  declared  that  they  would  not  be  counted.  He  was 
the  only  speaker,  and,  as  far  as  I  was  able  to  judge,  was  expressing  the  decision  of  all 


452 

the  bands.  I  replied  that  I  could  answer  all  that  he  had  said  in  a  few  words ;  that  he 
had  heard  the  order  of  the  Commissioner,  and  that  I  intended  to  carry  it  out. 

There  being  no  indications  of  the  Indians  yielding,  on  the  morning  of  the  fiffch  I 
addressed  a  note  to  the  commanding  officer  at  Camp  Robinson  requesting  information 
as  to  the  ability  of  the  force  at  his  command  to  defend  the  agency  in  case  the  Indians 
should  unite  in  resisting  the  order. 

This  correspondence  was  transmitted  to  your  Office  November  9. 

On  the  afternoon  of  the  5th  instant,  one  of  the  interpreters  was  sent  for  by  the 
Indians,  and.  he  was  informed  that  part  of  them  had  consented  to  be  counted  and 
would  move  near  the  agency  for  that  purpose.  They  immediately  commenced  mov 
ing.  I  subsequently  learned  that  Sword,  a  nephew  of  Red  Cloud's,  and  Young  Man 
Afraid  of  his  Horse,  had  called  another  council,  and  had  taken  a  very  firm  stand 
against  Red  Cloud,  and  compelled  him  to  yield. 

Soon  after  the  first  parties  began  to  move,  the  northern  Indians,  who  refused  to  be 
counted,  started  off.  Some  ten  lodges  of  Lone  Horn  of  the  North's  moved  in  to  be 
counted.  All  the  rest,  himself  among  them,  started  off  for  the  Black  Hills.  He  has 
since  returned  with  three  lodges,  and  is  now  here. 

The  actual  count  showed  that  the  numbers  given  in  by  the  Indians  thfhiselves  were 
approximately  correct.  The  number  of  Sioux  counted  is  9,339.  Some  eight  or  nine 
hundred  of  the  Kiocsie  band  were  in  Nebraska  hunting,  and  were  not  counted. 

In  effecting  this  count  I  received  valuable  aid  from  the  Indian  soldiers  whom  I  had 
armed,  as  well  as  the  leading  men.  They  kept  guard  over  the  agency  day  and  night, 
and  formed  a  guard  to  accompany  those  who  took  the  census. 

Threats  of  shooting  those  who  were  to  count  them  were  made  by  many  of  the  more  ill 
disposed  before  going  to  the  camps,  but  the  guard  kept  down  all  expressions  of  discon 
tent  when  they  were  in  the  camps. 

Annuity  goods  were  distributed  on  the  10th  instant.  There  wero  no  expressions  of 
dissatisfaction,  although  there  was  much  disappointment  at  the  small  quantity  given 
them.  There  were  3,700  blankets  for  9,339  people.  Were  it  not  for  the  few  skins  they 
DOW  get  by  hunting,  half  of  them  would  be  naked. 

While  we  were  counting  the  Indians,  Professor  Marsh  arrived  for  the  purpose  of 
going  to  the  Bad  Lands,  about  ten  miles  north  of  this  agency,  for  the  purpose  of 
making  geological  explorations.  He  proposed  to  take  a  party  of  soldiers  with  him.  I 
advised  him  not  to  take  soldiers,  as  it  would  certainly  raise  an  excitement  arnoug  the 
Indians.  Besides,  a  party  of  citizens,  with  a  few  Indians,  would  be  a  better  protection 
than  the  soldiers. 

But  he  felt  disposed  to  take  the  advice  of  his  military  friends  rather  than  mine.  On 
the  morning  of  the  4th  he  came  to  the  agency  with  a  military  escort.  In  a  short  time 
an  intense  excitement  arose  among  the  Indians,  which  I  tried  to  allay,  but  finally  in 
sisted  upon  the  party  returning  to  the  camp.  I  had  a  talk  with  the  Indians  in  the 
evening,  and  they  told  me  that  if  he  would  wait  a  few  days  until  some  of  the  most 
hostile  of  the  northern  Indians  went  away,  he  could  go  out  there  without  danger  j 
and  if  he  would  go  without  troops  they  would  go  with  him. 

He  was  detained  two  days  and  then  went  out,  but  as  he  insisted  upon  taking  troops, 
the  Indians  refused  to  go  with  him. 

The  order  for  the  Cheyenues  and  Arapahoes  to  sign  a  treaty  consenting  to  go  south 
when  the  Government  should  require  it  was  refused  by  them  until  the  12th,  when  they 
signed  it.  I  had  counted  both  of  these  tribes,  and,  as  business  called  me  to  Cheyenne, 
I  issued  rations  to  them,  with  the  understanding  that  I  should  recount  them  on  my 
return. 

The  estimate  for  provisions  for  them  was  based  upon  actual  count.  I  shall,  however, 
recount  them,  although  some  of  these  people  are  in  Nebraska  hunting.  The  older 
people  were  all  in  favor  of  signing  the  treaty,  but  the  young  soldiers  of  the  Cheyennes 
threatened  to  kill  any  one  who  signed  it.  A  young  man  called  Medicine  Wolf  is  the 
leader  of  the  young  soldiers,  and  is  a  bad  man.  He  and  several  of  his  followers,  I 
think,  are  determined  to  go  upon  the  war-path  as  soon  as  spring  opens,  if  a  favorable 
opportunity  offers.  I  think  it  would  have  a  good  effect  to  arrest  this  man  and  hold 
him  until  some  of  the  war-spirit  was  taken  out  of  him. 

There  are  also  some  bad  advisers  of  these  Indians  about  Fort  Fetterrnan.  I  have 
frequently  been  told  by  these  Indians  that  the  commanding  officer  at  Fetterman  wants 
them  to  come  there  to  trade.  I  have  no  doubt  that  this  has  been  told  them  by  parties 
who  are  interested  in  trading  with  them.  I  would  respectfully  recommend  that  they 
be  prohibited  from  going  to  or  camping  near  any  military  post,  and  that  post-traders  or 
residents  about  a  post  be  prohibited  from  trading  with  them. 

Under  the  agreement  with  Mr.  Appleton,  the  agency-buildings  and  issue-corral  were 
fast  approaching  completion.  On  reception  of  your  letter  disapproving  the  contract, 
November  6,  all  work  was  immediately  suspended,  leaving  the  slaughter-house,  issue- 
corral,  and  barn  unfinished,  and  leaving  unMawed  480  logs,  measuring  42,97(5  feet.  The 
mill  being  stopped,  I  discharged  the  engineer,  his  services  being  no  longer  requ  red. 


453 

There  being  some  work  necessary  in  order  to  make  our  buildings  habitable  during  the 
winter,  I  employed  a  carpenter  temporarily,  to  continue  the  most  necessary  work. 

Under  approval  of  my  requisition  of  April  1,  1874,  for  stock  and  agricultural  imple 
ments  for  the  use  of  Indians  going  to  farming,  I  had  promised  those  who  were  most 
active  in  the  movement  that  they  should  have  the  wagons  and  oxen  during  the  summer 
or  fall.  I  had  made  every  effort  to  obtain  such  cattle,  as  the  treaty  stipulates  to  give 
them,  but  found  it  very  difficult  to  do.  While  at  Cheyenne  I  went  to  see  a  lot  of  cattle 
for  which  Mr.  McCann'  had  bargained.  They  being  such  cattle  as  I  wished  I  bargained 
with  him  for  them,  agreeing  to  give  him  the  voucher  for  them  on  delivery  at  Chey 
enne. 

The  voTichers  were  made  out  and  sent  to  the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne,  I  thinking  that 
the  cattle  were  already  there.  I  notified  the  Department  of  the  purchase,  and  issue  of 
the  vouchers.  But  for  some  reason  Mr.  McCaun  failed  to  deliver  the  cattle,  and  the 
vouchers  were  returned  to  me. 

I  had  intended  not  to  purchase  any  this  fall,  but  the  Indians  expressed  so  much  disap 
pointment  and  dissatisfaction  at  the  failure  to  get  them  that  I  considered  it  a  matter 
of  importance  to  get  them.  I  therefore  sent  out  an  agent  and  bought  oxen,  wagons, 
and  plows.  I  have  delivered  to  the  Indians  some  wagons,  eight  yoke  of  oxen,  and 
they  are  using  them  hauling  wood  and  poles  for  fuel. 

Since  the  loss  of  278  head  of  cattle,  September  7,  I  have  had  my  herders  searching 
for  them.  They  have  been  unable  to  find  any  trace  of  them  excepting  the  trails  leading 
into  Mr.  Bosler's  herd.  It  is  difficult  to  proye  positively  that  all  the  cattle  went  into 
the  herd.  But  from  the  fact  that  no  other  trails  could  be  found,  and  the  cattle  had 
just  been  driven  from  the  herd  a  few  days  before,  it  is  to  be  inferred  that  they  all  went 
back. 

Verv  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

For  Dr.  Saville's  letter  of  Nov.  12,  1875,  with  reference  to  agency 
buildings  and  Dr.  Bevier's  report,  see  documents  relative  to  Appleton 
contract  in  appendix. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Thursday,  August  12,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  0.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  G-EORG-E  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF   LIEUT.  J.  McB.  STEMBEL. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  in  the  Army  ? 

Answer.  Second  lieutienant  Ninth  Infantry,  stationed  at  Camp  Rob 
inson. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  at  Camp  Robinson  9 

A.  Since  the  12th  of  July,  1874. 

Q.  Have  you  been  there  generally  all  the  time  ?• 

Q.  I  have  been  there  continually,  with  the  exception  of  four  days, 
when  I  was  up  at  Spotted  Tail  agency. 

Q.  Have  you  bad  any  acquaintance,  association  with,  or  other  means 
of  judging  of  the  character,  capability,  and  efficiency  of  Agent  Saville 
as  an  Indian  agent  other  than  the  circumstances  attending  the  attempt 
to  raise  the  flag-staff  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  No.  My  acquaintance  and  association  with  the  Indian  agent  here 
has  been  simply  that  I  got  introduced  to  him,  and  have  always  spoken 
to  him  when  I  met  him.  I  have  had  no  particular  association  with  him.  I 
am  aware,  however,  of  the  circumstances  connected  with  the  attempt 
to  raise  the  flag-staff. 


454 

Q.  Besides  that  circumstance,  are  there  any  others  known  to  you  that 
would  go  to  show  his  capability  or  efficiency? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  exactly  know  what  scope  my  answer  should  take  in. 
I  have  seen  Dr.  Saville  in  contact  with  the  Indians,  and  he  never  struck 
me  as  a  man  of  any  particular  firmness,  or  a  man  calculated  to  control 
the  Indians,  or  a  man  of  vim  and  nerve  enough  to  control  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  impropriety  of  conduct  on  the  part  of 
any  of  his  employes  about  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  beef-cattle  that  were  delivered  to  the  agency 
last  fall  or  winter,  or  this  spring  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  In  the  early  part  of  the  fall  I  had  occasion  to  ride  over 
to  the  beef  herd  ;  while  riding  in  among  it  I  spoke  to  the  person  with 
whom  I  was  riding  about  the  small  size  of  the  cattle. 

Q.  Had  the  cattle  that  you  saw  been  turned  over  to  the  agent,  or 
were  they  yet  in  the  hands  of  the  contractor  1 

A.  That  I  do  not  know.  The  man  who  was  the  herder  then  is  now 
issue-clerk  at  the  agency,  and  the  cattle  were  intended  for  the  Indians. 
Since  then  I  have  seen  Saville  issue  cattle,  and  have  seen  them  in  the 
possession  of  the  Indians,  and  they  always  seemed  to  me  to  be  small. 
The  cattle  that  are  issued  at  Army  posts  are  about  average  size,  but 
these  agency-cattle  are  small  as  far  as  my  observation  goes. 

Q.  Have  you  observed  other  herds  of  cattle  in  this  country  that  were 
neither  Army  nor  Indian-agency  cattle? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  suffering  of  the  Indians  in  this  vi 
cinity  last  winter  ? 

A.  There  was  quite  a  long  time  here  in  which  there  was  no  issue 
of  beef-cattle.  I  heard  that  the  cause  of  there  not  being  any  beef- 
cattle  issued  was  in  one  case  that  a  herd  stampeded,  and  in  another 
case  that  the  storms  had  been  so  violent  that  it  was  impossible  to  drive 
up  beef  cattle,  and  during  this  period  there  was  quite  a  long  time  in 
which  the  Indians  got  no  beef,  and  they  suffered  considerably.  They 
came  around  our  post-kitchens  begging  for  food.  I  have  seen  them 
put  their  hands  into  the  offal-sinks  and  take  out  what  had  been 
thrown  away  there — the  odds  and  ends  and  scraps  of  food.  Friday,  an 
Arapahoe  Indian  said  the  Arapahoes  were  killing  their  ponies  to  pre 
vent  starvation ;  and  I  heard  from  a  white  man  who  was  living  with 
the  Arapahoes,  (I  don't  know  that  he  is  good  authority,)  say  that  he 
had  two  small  children — little  girls — and  the  only  meat  they  had 
tasted  for  some  time  was  wolf-  m  eat ;  that  they  hunted  the  wolves; 
and  that  this  was  general  throughout  the  band. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  charges  made  by  Professor  Marsh  against 
the  management  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  :  I  have  read  them. 

Q.  Is  there  any  information  that  you  can  give  us  to  enable  us  to  as 
certain  the  correctness  of  his  charges  other  than  that  you  have  stated  ? 

A.  He  speaks,  I  think,  about  the  tobacco  ;  that  the  tobacco  was  very 
poor.  I  have  seen  the  tobacco  that  has  been  issued  to  the  Indians  here 
in  several  cases,  and  in  my  opinion  it  has  been  an  exceedingly  poor  arti 
cle.  The  Indians  often  try  to  trade  it  immediately  after  they  receive  it, 
or  to  give  it  away.  I  have  had  several  offers  of  plug-tobacco  as  a  pres 
ent.  It  seemed  to  be  very  poor  indeed.  Then  about  the  flour.  I  am 
post-treasurer,  and  as  post-treasurer  have  charge  of  the  baking  of  bread, 
and  I  know  that  the  Indians,  when  we  first  came  here,  used  to  trade 
their  flour  for  our  hard  bread  $  so  the  baker  would  trade  bread  for  flour. 


455 

On  one  occasion,  the  baker  of  one  of  the  companies  put  a  little  more  than 
one  quarter — I  think  it  was  that  he  told  me — of  Indian  flour  in  the  bread 
that  he  had  baked,  and  this  bread  had  to  be  thrown  away,  on  account, 
as  the  baker  said,  of  the  poor  quality  of  the  Indian  flour.  He  is  a  good 
baker,  and  I  have  every  reason  to  believe  that  he  spoke  the  truth. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  the  baker  still  at  this  post  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  matters  embraced  in  the  charges  about  which 
you  can  give  us  any  information  ? 

A.  I  can  corroborate  something  that  the  Professor  says.  He  says  he 
saw  a  good  deal  of  pork  thrown  away  by  the  Indians.  I  have  seen  a 
good  deal  of  the  same  thing. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  examine  the  quality  of  any  of  that  pork  yourself? 

A.  Not  closely.     I  was  riding  past  when  I  saw  them  throw  it  away. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  observe  that  sufficiently  to  know  whether  the  pork  was 
damaged  ? 

A.  ^o ;  I  did  not.  The  pork  did  not  look  very  good  or  nice  to  me. 
When  I  read  the  Professor's  charges,  that  he  had  seen  pork  thrown 
away,  I  remembered  then  that  I  had  seen  the  same  thing.  That  is  about 
all  that  I  would  say  in  relation  to  those  charges. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  matters  of  irregularity  or  improper  manage- 
mefttj  here  that  you  either  know  of  personally,  or  can  refer  us  to  per 
sons  who  have  any  personal  information  of  them  ? 

A.  I  know  of  nothing,  personally,  sir.  In  the  matter  of  beef,  I  be 
lieve  that  Green,  the  butcher  at  the  post,  would  give  information  as  to 
the  size  of  the  beef.  He  has  a  practiced  eve  in  matters  of  that  sort. 
That  is  all  I  know  of. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  W.  B.  PEASE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  What  is  you  rank  ? 

Answer.  First  lieutenant  of  the  Ninth  Infantry,  stationed  at  Camp 
Robinson. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  Camp  Robinson  ? 

A.  I  have  been  there  about  a  year — not  quite  a  year — a  year  next 
October. 

Q.  AVhen  was  that  camp  established  ? 

A.  The  post  was  laid  out  about  August,  1873. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  read  the  charges  made  by  Professor  Marsh  against 
the  management  of  the  agency? 

A.  I  have  read  part  of  them.  I  have  his  pamphlet,  and  have  looked 
it  through,  but  not  very  carefully.  I  have  been  absent  in  the  Black 
Hills,  and  only  returned  a  day  or  two  ago. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  in  regard  to  any  of  the  matters 
that  are  stated  in  any  of  Professor  Marsh's  charges? 


456 

A.  As  to  any  real  information,  I  don't  know  that  I  can — nothing  that 
I  could  swear  to,  or  even  affirm,  of  my  own  knowledge.  There  was  one 
item  1  noticed  particularly.  The  tobacco  is  certainly  such  as  I  would  not 
like  to  use  myself.  1  have  seen  it,  and  it  is  of  a  poor  quality. 

Q.  Aside  from  any  personal  knowledge  of  your  own,  can  you  refer  us 
to  any  persons  who  have  any  personal  knowledge,  and  could  give  us  any 
information  in  reference  to  any  of  these  matters  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  suppose  the  employes  at  the  agency  would  know 
about  those  things.  Mr.  Ecoffee,  I  believe,  professes  to  have  some  knowl 
edge  of  those  things.  We  have  not  noticed  them  particlarly,  because 
they  are  not  under  our  supervision;  we  would  if  they  were  under  our 
supervision. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  of  your  own  knowledge  you  are  not 
able  to  tell  us  cf  any  irregularities  or  mismanagement  of  affairs  at  the 
agency? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  in  reference  to  the  number  of  Indians  at 
this  agency  in  October  and  November  last '? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  know.  The  reports  about  the  number  of  Indians 
are  so  very  conflicting  that  it  is  impossible  to  tell  except  by  actual  count 
how  many  are  about  the  agency  or  in  the  vicinity. 

Q.  Were  you  able  in  any  manner  to  form  an  estimate  of  the  num 
ber  that  were  camped  in  this  vicinity,  and  that  drew  rations  and  sup 
plies  from  this  agency  ? 

A.  Nothing  at  all  that  would  be  reliable ;  there  might  be  many  en 
camped  in  the  vicinity  which  we  could  not  know  anything  about,  or 
there  might  not  be.  In  making  an  estimate  of  the  Indians  I  should 
go  out  to  all  their  camps,  and  make  an  actual  count ;  that  is  the  only 
way  it  could  be  done  accurately. 

Q.  And  that  you  did  not  do  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

1^).  Do  you  know  whether  anybody  did  ? 

A.  I  don't  know,  unless  it  was  the  employes  here. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  suppose  or  believe  that  the  agent  has 
improperly  used  any  supplies  that  came  into  his  hands  as  agent  ? 

A.  I  have  no  reason  to  say  that  Mr.  Saville  has  been  dishonest  in  the 
performance  of  his  duties  here.  I  have  no  opportunity  of  knowing 
anything  about  it  or  about  his  affairs. 

Q.  Has  it  been  a  matter  talked  about  in  the  post  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  we  don't  talk  about  those  things  ;  we  don't  care  anything 
about  them,  in  fact ;  it  is  not  a  subject  that  we  would  dwell  upon. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  you  know  nothing  of  any  fraud  committed  by 
him  upon  the  Indians  or  the  Government  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  such  personal  acquaintance  with  him  ? 

A.  1  hardly  know  him  ;  I  haven't  met  him  or  spoken  to  him  a  dozen 
times  in  a  year. 

Q.  Are  the  relations  between  the  post  and  the  agency  of  that  friendly 
character  which  you  think  ought  to  exist  between  them  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  are.  Visits  are  exchanged  occasionally  be 
tween  the  gentlemen  at  the  agency  and  the  post.  Mr.  Yates  and  Dr. 
feaville  have  been  there  several  times,  but  not  at  my  own  house.  There 
has  been  no  ill  feeling  between  the  post  and  the  agency. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  there  should  be  intimate  and  friendly  rela- 


457 

tions  between  the  head  of  the  post  and  the  head  of  the  agency  for  the 
good  of  the  Indians  ? 

A.  There  has  been  no  unfriendly  relations  that  I  know  of.  I  think 
they  should  work  in  unison.  I  think  the  interests  of  all  parties  would 
be  better  subserved  by  good  feeling  and  co-operation.  It  is  better,  on 
general  principles,  that  they  should  co-operate. 


TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  SPARROW  A.  SNOW. 

V 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Doctor,  you  are  physician  at  the  agency,  I  believe  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  here  last  fall  and  winter  1 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  came  here  a  year  ago  last  May.  I  have  been  here  con 
stantly,  except  for  about  two  weeks  in  October,  when  I  went  to  Chey 
enne. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  information  in  regard  to  any  suffering  here  dur 
ing  last  winter  or  early  spring — suffering  for  the  want  of  food  and 
clothing  ? 

A.  I  have  never  known  them  to  be  suffering  for  the  want  of  clothing. 
At  one  time  I  believe  the  provisions  were  short  for  a  brief  time,  but  not 
so  as  to  cause  any  suffering,  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Did  you  have  occasion  during  the  winter  to  visit  the  various  In 
dian  camps  around  here  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  I  was  out  a  little  in  the  winter,  but  not  very  much. 

Q.  What  is  the  course  of  your  practice  :  are  you  sent  for  by  the  In 
dians  as  a  physician,  or  are  you  sent  out  by  the  agent  to  see  whether 
there  is  sickness  in  the  camps  ? 

A.  I  am  sent  for  by  the  Indians  to  tend  them  as  I  would  white  peo 
ple — go  to  their  camps,  the  same  as  I  would  if  I  were  in  private  prac 
tice. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  by  the  Government  or  by  the  individual  Indians  ? 

A.  By  the  Government. 

Q.  If  the  Indians  were  in  a  state  of  suffering  and  starvation,  do  you 
think  it  is  likely  they  would  have  sent  for  you  as  a  physician  ? 

A.  They  did  at  times  when  there  was  suffering  in  cases  of  sickness. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  of  being  called  upon  in  the  winter  of 
1874-7<3  by  any  of  them  on  account  of  suffering  for  the  want  of  food  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  sickness  induced  by  want  of  food  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  none  that  I  have  any  knowledge  of  whatever. 


TESTIMONY  OF  NICHOLAS  JAN1S. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Janis,  please  state  how  long  you  have  been  among  the 
Indians. 

Answer.  I  have  been  in  the  Indian  country  since  November,  1846.  I 
speak  and  understand  the  Sioux  language ;  have  been  acquainted  among 
the  Indians  ever  since  I  have  been  here  ;  lived  in  lodges  for  nine  years  ; 
have  a  family  of  nine  children  among  the  Sioux.  I  was  here  last  fall  when 


458 

the  annuity  goods  were  issued.  I  helped  them  to  issue  the  goods,  and 
showed  the  goods  to  the  Indians.  They  called  the  Indians  in  and  showed 
them  the  goods,  and  counted  thirty-six  or  thirty-seven  bales.  I  am  not 
positive  whether  it  was  thirty-six  or  thirty-seven.  I  counted  them,  but 
could  not  tell  exactly  about  it  now. 

Q.  Were  those  goods  distributed  in  the  manner  they  usually  distribute 
them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  distributed  that  day.  The  a<?ent  culled  me 
in  to  help  him  count  the  Indians  and  witness  all  the  Indians  that  were 
getting  blankets.  I  asked  the  Indians  how  they  should  be  issued,  and 
they  said  they  had  seventeen  bands,  I  think — I  don't  recollect  exactly 
though — and  they  asked  that  the  goods  be  given  them  according  to  the 
bands,  or  the  numbers  of  each  band,  and  therefore  we  took  the  goods  out 
of  the  commissary,  after  the  Indians  had  seen  them,  and  gave  them  to 
the  Indians  according  to  eacli  band ;  so  many  blankets  to  each,  accord 
ing  to  the  numbers.  I  asked  the  Indians  how  it  was  divided — that  is, 
how  they  liked  it — and  they  said  all  right,  just  as  they  wished  it  to  be 
done,  and  they  were  satisfied. 

Q.  Previous  to  that  time  you  had  been  sent  for  to  help  count  them'? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Dr.  Saville  sent  for  me,  and  he  told  me  he  wanted  me  to 
help  in  counting  the  Indians.  It  was  then  difficult  to  count  them  ;  there 
were  so  many  of  them  from  the  North  that  would  not  be  counted.  None 
of  them  were  counted,  because  they  wanted  to  bring  the  Indians  over 
and  collect  them.  I  asked  Doctor  Saville  to  get  my  brother  to  assist  me. 
I  told  the  Doctor  what  the  Indians  said,  and  the  Doctor  told  me  to  tell 
them  that  there  was  an  order  from  their  Great  Father  for  them  to  be 
counted,  and  they  could  not  get  their  goods  until  they  were  counted,  and 
I  explained  that  to  the  Indians,  and  then  we  began  to  count  them,  as 
they  agreed  to  be  counted.  The  first  day  there  were  counting  Doctor 
Saville  and  another  man  and  myself — three  of  us — in  one  party  ;  the 
clerk  and  the  interpreter  were  in  another  party  ;  there  were  three  or  four 
parties  out  counting  the  Indians.  The  first  day  Doctor  Saville  got  tired 
and  said,  "I  would  leave  it  to  you,  gentlemen,  to  count  them,"  as  we 
had  been  doing  it  ;  and  we  wenf  on  counting,  and  it  took  us  four  days  to 
count  them.  There  was  an  interpreter  with  each  of  the  parties.  Mr. 
Appleton  was  with  my  brother,  and  Mr.  William  Hunter  was  in  another 
party.  It  would  have  taken  three  weeks  for  one  party  to  count  them 
all.  I  think  there  were  nine  thousand  altogether  of  the  Sioux  only.  The 
Oheyennes  arid  Arapahoes  were  not  here  and  were  not  counted  at  that 
time. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  many  miles  did  you  go  out  around  the  country  ? 

A.  I  can't  say,  exactly;  but  we  went  above  to  the  White  River,  and 
kept  going  around  to  every  creek  until  we  got  about  ten  or  twelve  miles, 
and  through  the  Indians  on  all  the  creeks,  by  bands,  and  each  band  had 
their  own  place  to  camp,  and  we  had  to  go  to  each  band ;  and  we  went 
around  until  we  got  away  down  on  White  River.  It  took  us  three  or 
four  days  to  do  it  in. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Do  you  know  something  of  the  kind  of  supplies  that  were  issued 
here  last  fall  ? 

A.  I  knew  the  first  supplies  that  were  issued.  They  were  brought  up 
here  the  same  time  the  goods  were  brought.  The  goods  were  not 
brought  in  one  trip,  but  in  different  trips  of  the  wagons.  I  got  here 
about  the  last  time  they  got  goods.  I  believe  there  were  seven  bales  of 


459 

blankets,  and  the  balance  was  flour.  Mr.  McCann  was  then  the  con 
tractor.  I  was  standing  out  there  with  Red  Cloud,  and  Blue  Dog  was 
there  too.  Mr.  McCann  stuck  his  knife  into  each  sack  to  sample  it,  and 
they  were  weighed  and  put  up,  and  he  asked  Eed  Cloud  how  he  liked 
this  flour,  and  also  asked  Red  Dog,  and  Red  Cloud  said  it  was  very 
good  flour,  better  flour  than  he  had  gotten  before ;  and  I  said  it  was 
very  good  flour.  I  had  some  of  the  flour  at  my  ranch.  There  were  some 
rations  due  me,  and  Dr.  Saville  gave  me  two  sacks  of  flour.  This  was 
in  November.  I  don't  know  the  exact  date,  but  it  was  four  or  five  days 
before  the  annuity  goods  were  issued.  It  was  the  first  flour  that  came 
up  last  fall.  They  commenced  the  issue  from  that  flour,  because  they 
all  remarked  that  they  had  opened  some  of  it.  And  they  were  wishing 
for  flour,  as  they  had  been  out  for  some  time,  and  they  all  drew  their 
rations  the  next  day  after  the  flour  got  in.  I  used  the  flour  at  my 
rauche,  and  there  are  a  great  many  passengers  or  travelers  there  every 
day,  and  they  ate  it  and  did  not  complain. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  about  any  pork  they  had  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  remember  it,  but  I  could  not  call  it  pork.  It  was  should 
ers  and  "jaw-bones,"  and  everybody  knows  it ;  and  I  told  Dr.  Saville,  and 
he  said,  "  I  could  not  help  it.  I  have  been  working  to  get  better,  but 
they  keep  sending  me  that."  * 

Q.  Did  he  refuse  to  issue  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  heard  him  say  it  was  a  shame  to  issue  that  to  the  In 
dians,  because  it  was  not  fit  to  issue. 

Q.  What  did  the  Indians  say  or  do? 

A.  The  Indians  took  the  fat  and  left  the  lean  and  the  bones  on  the 
prairie. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  anything  of  his  issuing  it  afterward  upon  the 
demand  of  the  Indians  to  have  it1? 

A.  ISro,  sir;  I  do  not.  I  don't  know  why  they  used  it,  but  I  heard 
them  say  there  was  some  pork  over  there,  and  tlie3T  had  to  eat  it.  I 
told  them  it  was  not  fit  to  eat;  that  it  was  nothing  but  bones  ;  but  they 
said,  "  There  is  plenty  there,  and  we  have  to  have  something  to  eat." 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  What  would  the  Indians  have  said  if  he  had  refused  to  issue  it? 

A.  I  was  present  one  day  when  the  agent  told  the  Indians,  "This  pork 
is  nothing  but  bones,  and  you  see  how  it  is ;  I  have  to  issue  it  to  you," 
and  the  Indians  said,  "You  have  to  issue  it,  because  we  have  nothing  to 
eat."  There  was  about  one  hundred  barrels  there.  I  told  them  they 
were  leaving  it  on  the  prairie,  and  they  said,  "  If  he  don't  give  it  to  us,  he 
will  be  trading  it  to  somebody  else;"  and  I  can  bring  the  Indians  who 
said  this.  "He  wants  to  keep  it  to  trade  it  to  somebody  else."  The  In 
dians  said  this  to  the  agent  too. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Saville  say  that  he  would  send  it  back? 

A.  The  Doctor  said  he  could  not  send  it  back,  because  he  would  have 
to  issue  it  to  them,  as  they  demanded  it. 

Q.  Your  large  acquaintance  among  the  Indians  up  in  this  country 
enables  you  to  judge  if  there  are  Indians  through  here  who  have  never 
been  counted  "I 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  are  from  four  to  five  thousand  Sioux  who 
have  never  come  into  the  agency. 

Q.  Some  of  those  Indians,  however,  I  understood  you  to  say  awhile 
ago,  had  sent  their  families  in  here,  or  had  otherwise  drawn  rations  and 
goods  here? 


460 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  mean  most  of  the  lodges  have  come  ill  here  or  have 
sent  their  families. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  are  Indians  up  there  who  have  never  drawn 
rations  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  are  some  Indians  who  have  never  drawn  rations 
nor  seen  a  white  man,  except  in  war,  nor  have  been  at  an  agency  for  ten 
or  fifteen  years.  Some  of  them  have  not  been  here  since  the  war  with 
General  Harney. 

Q.  As  the  game  grows  scarcer  up  in  their  country,  and  their  means  of 
subsistence  becomes  less,  won't  they  be  likely  to  come  down  here  in 
greater  numbers  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  reason  they  do  not  come  down  is  because  they  are 
wild  Indians.  The  commissioners  said  to  them,  "  We  want  you  to  come 
to  the  agency  and  we  will  give  you  all  you  want  to  eat.-'  Now,  since  this 
agency  has  been  built  the  rations  have  been  cut  down.  These  Indians, 
who  saw  that  the  rations  were  cut  down,  have  reported  it  to  the  North 
ern  Indians,  and  they  say,  "What  is  the  use  of  us  going  down  there?" 
This  has  been  done  since  Daniels  and  Wharu  were  up  there.  Since  Dr. 
Daniels  was  here  as  agent,  the  rations  have  been  :cut  down,  and  the 
information  went  back  to  them  up  there  that  the  Indians  here  were 
nearly  starved  $  and  therefore  those  Indians  won't  come  in,  and  have  not 
done  so. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  herd  of  beef-cattle  that  was  driven  in  here  day 
before  yesterday? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  beef-cattle  that  were  driven  in  here  last  fall  and 
spring  ? 

A.  I  was  here  last  fall,  and  Dr.  Saville  gave  me  a  beeve,  and  it  was  the 
only  issue  I  had  since.  It  was  the  first  issue  to  the  Indians  after  the 
count  of  the  Indians. 

Q.  What  kind  of  beef  was  it  ? 

A.  The  one  I  got  was  a  tolerably  good  beeve ;  it  was  not  of  the  best 
quality,  but  it  was  middling.  The  herd  had  some  few  cows  in  it,  and 
there  were  a  few  steers,  some  from  three  to  six  and  eight  years  old, 
and  I  thought  it  was  a  very  fair  average  of  cattle  in  those  days,  because 
they  generally  have  good  cattle  here  in  the  fall. 

Q.   Was  that  herd  a  fair  average  of  Texas  cattle  in  this  country  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  as  fair  as  I  have  seen  in  general.  It  seemed  equally 
as  good  as  the  general  average.  I  saw  this  herd  in  November  last. 
Last  winter  some  time  about  two  thousand  of  those  cattle  came  into  my 
herd,  and  I  was  about  a  month  getting  my  cattle  out  of  them.  They 
were  Mr.  Bosler's  cattle;  and  to  this  day  I  have  not  found  my  cattle. 
I  had  about  two  hundred.  They  would  range  from  twenty-five  miles 
below  my  place  to  thirty  miles  above  it.  Only  two  weeks  ago  I  got  my 
cattle  back. 

Q.  Mr.  Janis,  what  is  the  disposition  of  these  Indians  here  in  regard  to 
engaging  in  farming,  and  cattle-raising,  and  sheep-raising;  is  there  a 
pretty  general  desire  among  them  to  do  so  ? 

A.  About  sheep  they  know  nothing,  but  about  cattle,  it  was  only  three 
or  four  months  that  they  have  talked  of  raising  cattle.  I  never  heard 
of  them  raising  stock  of  any  kind  except  horses,  with  the  exception  of 
Red  Cloud;  he  got  some  cattle,  and  put  them  into  my  herd,  and  they  are 
there  yet.  They  have  been  there  for  nearly  three  years — ever  since  Dr. 
Daniels  was  here.  He  has  fourteen  or  fifteen  head  of  horses. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  opportunity  of  learning  the  weight  of  cattle  on 
the  hoof  ? 


461 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  liave  not.  I  am  not  a  judge.  I  never  went  to  the  herd 
but  once,  and  then  only  drew  one  beeve.  I  am  incorporated  into  the 
Sioux  tribe  of  Indians.  I  am  married  to  a  niece  of  lied  Cloud,  and 
am  entitled  to  receive  rations.  I  have  sixteen  in  my  family.  I  was  in 
corporated  into  the  Indian  nation  prior  to  April,  1868,  With  my  father, 
and  mother,  and  children,  altogether  I  have  a  family  of  sixteen. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Your  experience  among  the  Indians,  and  among  the  Indian  agents, 
enables  you  to  judge  of  the  competency  of  men  to  fill  the  position  of 
Indian  agent.  Now,  what  is  your  opinion  in  reference  to  Dr.  Saville  in 
that  respect  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  as  far  as  Dr.  Saville  is  concerned,  or  any  other  Indian 
agent,  I  don't  know  ;  they  have  their  orders  and  have  to  obey  them  ;  but 
I  say  that  the  Government  sends  Indian  agents  out  here  to  attend  to 
the  affairs  of  the  agency  and  the  Indians  without  sufficient  power.  It 
ought  to  give  him  more  power  to  do  just  what  he  sees  fit,  but  the  ma 
jority  of  agents  come  here  with  their  hands  tied.  The  Indians  bother 
them  every  day  for  things  they  have  not  the  power  to  give  them. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  are  personally  concerned,  and  the  Indians  you  have 
talked  with,  what  is  your  opinion  as  to  Dr.  Saville  as  a  man  ?  Do  you 
regard  him  as  a  good  man,  a  correct  man,  and  an  honest  man  ? 

A.  So  far  as  I  know  Dr.  Saville,  and  I  have  known  him  since  1859 — 
he  was  a  doctor  in  Denver,  and  was  very  well  thought  of  there — I  think 
he  is  a  good  man,  but  the  Indians,  find  fault  with  him  just  as  they  would 
find  fault  with  any  man  that  would  come  here,  unless  it  was  a  man  like 
Major  Twist  or  Major  Patrick,  who  gave  them  all  they  wanted  and 
everything  they  wanted,  as  they  had  such  a  supply  that  they  could 
give  the  Indians  everything  they  wanted.  The  Indians  talk  about  them 
to  this  day  with  a  good  deal  of  pleasure  and  kindness,  as  they  thought 
they 'were  so  good. 

Q.  You  have  the  good  of  the  Indian  at  heart,  and  so  have  we.  At  the 
same  time,  we  have  the  good  of  our  Government  to  look  after,  and  we 
want  to  get  your  opinion  on  these  subjects, 

A.  I  am  the  friend  of  the  Indian,  and  have  been  working  for  them 
ever  since  I  have  been  here,  and  I  feel  for  them.  They  want  a  man  with 
them  to  show  them  how  to  manage  their  affairs :  they  want  a  man  to 
show  them  how  to  take  care  of  themselves.  It  requires  for  an  Indian 
agent  a  man  not  only  who  is  honest,  but  a  man  of  mind,  and  firmness, 
and  decision  of  character,  and  not  only  that,  but  a  man  with  full  power 
to  do  everything. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  Dr.  Saville  is  a  man  of  firmness  and  strength  of  char 
acter  enough  to  be  the  Indian  agent  here  ? 

A.  The  Indian  agents  they  have  sent  here  are  sent  merely  as  clerks, 
to  carry  out  the  orders  that  are  given  them,  without  any  discretionary 
powers  to  do  what  they  think  best.  Unless  you  have  a  man  here  to  give 
them  all  they  want,  they  do  not  consider  him  an  agent  at  all,  and  they 
will  complain  for  one  hundred  years  to  come.  They  are  wild  Indians  yet, 
and  you  must  not  consider  them  civilized. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  in  September  last,  about  the  time  of  the  issue 
of  goods,  that  there  were  some  wild  Northern  Indians  camped  over  on 
White  River  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     There  were  over  two  hundred  lodges  of  those  wild  In- 


462 

dians,  and  we  bad  great  difficulty  in  counting  them.     I  took  pains  to 
find  this  out,  and  there  were  two  hundred  families. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  they  go  away  immediately  after  the  issue  of  the  annuity-goods  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     They  went  away  two  or  three  days  after  the  issue. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  Northern  Indians  being  camped  out 
beyond  the  Bad  Lands  from  here  about  that  time  ? 

A.  In  November  last  they  were  here  when  the  goods  were  issued,  be 
low  here  six  or  seven  miles,  and  then  they  moved  out  there  on  a  little 
creek.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  on  the  other  side  or  this  side,  but 
they  camped  out  there  just  after  the  issue  of  annuity-goods.  All  these 
Indians  who  have  any  lodges  are  in  the  habit  of  moving.  They  move  just 
as  soon  as  the  grass  is  eaten  up  from  around  their  lodges.  They  some 
times  stay  a  week,  and  sometimes  two  weeks  and  sometimes  a  month. 
The  main  body  of  the  wild  Indians  wrere  camped  within  six  miles  of  here, 
on  the  White  Clay  Creek,  when  the  goods  were  issued.  There  were  the 
Uncpapas,  Ogallalas,  Sans  Arcs,  Minueconjoux,  and  other  tribes,  mixed 
up,  and  after  the  issue  of  annuity-goods  they  all  moved  north,  and  I 
was  told  a  portion  of  them  were  camped  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  Bad 
Lands,  and  a  good  many  of  them  were  visiting  their  relatives  here,  but 
the  main  body  of  them  wrere  camped  up  there.  I  think  it  was  the  second 
day  after  the  issue  that  they  were  there. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  stay? 

A.  They  must  have  remained  for  five  or  six  days,  for  it  was  snowing, 
and  they  could  not  go  away. 


BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Friday,  August  13,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MAItK  GIBBONS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  position  here  ? 

Answer.  I  am  clerk  and  book-keeper  for  the  agent.  Have  been  clerk 
since  January  1, 1875.  James  Eoberts  was  my  predecessor.  I  found  "  Ee- 
ceipt-Books  of  Supplies,"  "  Book  of  Stores  Beceived,"  and  "  Book  of 
Issue,"  when  I  came. 

Q.  In  the  beef-account  up  to  the  1st  of  January,  1875,  it  appears  that 
one  hundred  and  twenty- three  head  of  cattle  more  were  issued  than  were 
received  up  to  that  time  ;  can  you  explain  this  error  ? 

A.  I  cannot.  1  have  no  other  means  of  detecting  an  error  except  from 
these  books. 

[Mr.  Gibbons  produced  his  books,  which  were  examined  by  Mr.  Harris, 
who  questioned  him  as  to  his  system  of  book-keeping  and  his  method 
of  keeping  his  accounts.] 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  had  experience  in  weighing  cattle  *? 

A.  1  have  weighed  the  cattle  in  the  absence  of  Dr.  Saville,  and  once 
or  twice  when  he  was  here.  I  make  the  entry  upon  the  beef  account 
book,  in  one  item.  I  take  a  memorandum,  on  a  piece  of  paper,  of  the 
issue,  at  the  scale,  and  then  enter  it  in  the  book  afterward.  We  try  to 


463 

weigh  all  the  cattle  of  one  issue,  and  sometimes  they  are  all  weighed,  and 
sometimes  five  or  six  are  not  weighed.  I  have  never  kuow,n  more  than 
fifteen  to  go  unweighed.  This  was  in  May,  some  time.  We  received  six 
hundred  and  eight  head,  and  out  of  those  there  were  fifteen  we  could  not 
weigh.  The  weights  shown  upon  our  books  since  I  have  been  clerk  here 
are  as  near  correct  as  I  could  add  them  up.  The  weights  were  taken  on 
a  piece  of  paper,  and  then  entered  into  the  book.  We  don't  keep  the 
papers  on  which  we  make  these  memoranda  of  the  weight.  They  ar 
brought  to  the  office  and  the  entries  made  in  the  books  and  a  receipt 
given  to  the  contractor  for  that  amount  of  beef;  the  contractor  gets 
duplicate  receipts.  The  weights  which  I  took  myself  were  taken  cor 
rectly.  I  was  here  in  May,  when,  it  was  said,  some  old  cattle  passed 
through.  There  were  a  few  yearlings  in  the  herd.  The  Indians  got 
some  of  them  before  they  were  corraled ;  some  run  through  the  scales 
with  the  cattle  and  were  weighed.  I  had  the  herders  examine  the  herd 
and  count  how  many  calves  there  were  after  the  whole  herd  was  weighed, 
and  they  reported  twenty,  and  I  made  a  memorandum  of  it.  The  Doctor 
was  away,  and  I  deducted  two  thousand  pounds  for  those  yearlings  that 
were  weighed.  They  would  not  weigh  more  than  one  hundred  pounds 
each;  that  was  the  opinion  also  of  the  herders.  I  asked  them  what  they 
thought  those  calves  would  weigh,  and  they  said  they  presumed  one 
hundred  pounds  each. 

Q.  In  weighing  those  cattle  you  have  men  to  drive  them  in  and  a 
gate  keeper  to  let  them  out  after  they  are  weighed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  the  practice  to  count  them  as  they  run  through  the  scales? 

A.  Anything  under  two  years  is  not  counted. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  deduction  that  is  made,  that  they  are  not  counted? 

A.  I  don't  understand  you.  They  were  weighed  at  the  time  they  went 
in,  and  after  the  Doctor  came  we  estimated  that  twenty  went  through, 
and  we  deducted  two  thousand  pounds,  but  no  memorandum  was  taken 
of  it.  The  cattle  are  always  weighed  the  same  as  they  were  the  other 
day. 

Q.  Are  those  all  the  books  you  keep,  sir? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  keep  a  stock-account,  stock  on  hand  in  the  warehouse  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  all  kept  in  these  books. 

Q.  Can  you,  any  day,  after  an  issue,  determine  the  stock  on  hand  in 
the  warehouse? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How? 

A.  By  looking  over  the  books  to  see  what  is  issued.  The  store-keeper, 
after  the  issue,  returns  the  amount  issued  of  each  article  to  me,  and  I 
enter  it,  as  an  issue,  on  the  books. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  how  many  beef-cattle  you  have  on  hand  by  your  books, 
and  who  have  the  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  can  tell  that  without  looking  at  the  book — there  are 
none. 

Q.  For  instance:  I  find,  you  say  July  25,  W.  A.  Paxton,  446  head; 
July  15,  received  from  Maybry,  810  head,  and  you  also  bring  that  into 
the  next  quarter;  then,  August  2,  you  received  of  Seth  Maybry  394 
cattle,  and  your  account  shows  the  issue  of  463  cattle.  Should  not  the 
entries  all  be  there  now  ? 

A.  I  have  not  had  time  to  make  them  up. 

Q.  This  is  a  book  of  original  entry,  and  why  should  not  they  be 
there  ? 


464 

A.  I  have  not  had  time  to  post  them  up. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  you  allow  the  memorandum  of  an  issue 
of  cattle  like  that  of  yesterday  to  lay  around  your  office  for  weeks  at  a 
time  ? 

A.  It  don't  lay  around  the  office,  l)ut  I  have  not  had  time  to  enter 
them. 

Q.  These  books  don't  balance,  and  I  have  been  trying  to  see  them 
balanced.  Why  can't  you  make  them  up  ? 

A.  I  will  go  and  do  so. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  give  me  the  original  memorandum  from  which 
you  make  up  these  accounts.  Have  you  blanks  f 

A.  No,  sir;  I  make  them  on  blank  paper. 

Q.  If  you  issue,  as  you  did  the  other  day,  377  cattle,  you  drive  off  to 
the  corral  thirty  (30)  and  you  issue  the  balance ;  do  you  charge  the 
whole  number,  and  from  day  to  day  if  you  issue  a  cow  to  a  separate 
Indian,  you  charge  that  separately  ? 

A.  I  don't  make  separate  entries  of  them  ;  I  keep  them  on  separate 
memoranda,  and  at  the  end  of  the  month  I  enter  them  on  the  book. 
My  duties  are,  attending  to  almost  everything,  besides  book-keeping. 
I  have  charge  of  everything  during  the  absence  of  the  agent,  and  since 
you  gentlemen  have  been  here  I  have  not  had  an  opportunity  to  do  any 
thing.  The  Doctor  is  employed  all  the  time,  and  there  are  one  thousand 
Indians  here,  and  a  man  has  to  stop  and  talk  to  them  or  they  will  abuse 
him  and  drive  him  off  and  say  he  is  of  no  account. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  would  like  to  have  your  books  brought  down  to  this 
present  time,  so  that  we  could  understand  how  you  stand  before  we 
leave. 

The  WITNESS.     All  right,  sir;  I  will  do  it. 


RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Tuesday,  August  17,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  0.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
HOWE,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LOUIS  RES  HAW. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Eeshaw,  have  you  been  in  the  vicinity  of  Red  Cloud 
agency  a  good  deal  in  the  last  two  years  ? 

Answer.  I  was  here  last  fall. 

Q.  Where  do  you  make  your  home '? 

A.  At  Fort  Laramie ;  I  have  been  stopping  here  ever  since  last  spring, 
though. 

Q.  When  you  were  here  last  fall  had  you  any  means  of  ascertaining 
with  any  certainty  the  number  of  Indians  that  were  camped  within  a 
space  near  enough  for  them  to  draw  rations  from  this  agency  ? 

A.  I  was  here  last  fall  when  they  registered  the  Indians,  and  the 
agent  could  not  register  them  at  all.  He  asked  me  to  help  him.  I  went 
into  every  lodge  and  counted  the  women  and  children  ;  there  were  9, 000 
and  some  odd — I  don't  know  how  many.  Those  were  Sioux,  and  part 


465 

were  Cheyennes,  but  I  didn't  count  them.  Bill  Rowland,  the  Cheyenno 
interpreter,  counted  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  Oheyeunes  there  were  I 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  Arapahoes  there  were  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't.     I  never  inquired. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  Northern  Indians  there  were  there  tem 
porarily  at  that  time  ? 

A.  There  were  not  many  northern  Indians  there  at  that  time,  because 
just  before  that  they  had  the  flag-staff  cutting,  and  that  stampeded  all 
the  northern  Indians. 

Q.  Were  you  here  at  the  issue  of  annuity-goods  in  November  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  seen  the  issue  of  annuity- goods  frequently  before  at  the 
Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  these  goods  issued  in  the  manner  in  which  goods  are  usuallj' 
issued  by  Indian  agents  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  same  thing  as  they  had  always.  The  agent  calls  the 
different  bands  and  divides  the  goods. 

Q.  Do  3'ou  remember  how  many  blankets  were  issued  on  that  occa 
sion  ? 

A.  There  were  18  bales  of  blankets  issued,  50  blankets  in  a  bale — 
3,GOO  blankets. 

Q.  Mr.  Reshaw,  do  you  know  the  number  of  bales  of  blankets  that 
were  in  the  warehouse  there  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  were  there  there  ? 

Q.  That  is  what  there  were,  18,  when  I  interpreted  to  the  Indians; 
only  18  bales  of  blankets. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  complaint  at  that  time  on  the  part  of  the  Indians 
as  to  the  size  or  quality  of  the  blankets  ? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  appeared  to  be  their  objection  to  them  ? 

A.  They  said  the  blankets  were  small,  and  there  was  not  enough  of 
them,  and  they  would  not  have  taken  the  goods  if  I  had  not  coaxed  them 
into  it. 

Q.  Was  there  any  complaint  on  their  part  about  the  brand  being  on 
the  blankets"? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  appeared  to  be  their  objection  to  the  brand  ? 

A.  That  it  burned  a  hole  right  through.  It  is  a  kind  of  poison  that 
burns  a  hole  right  through. 

Q.  But  did  they  make  any  objection  to  the  brand  at  the  time  the 
blankets  were  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  didn't  like  the  brand  at  all.  If  they  wore  the 
blankets  a  day  or  two  the  hole  wore  right  through,  and  alter  that  they 
complained  about  them. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  those  blankets  that  had  holes  in  them  where 
the  brand  was  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  many  did  you  see  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  a  good  many.  I  have  several  of  them  at  home  now, 
which  have  not  been  worn,  but  which  you  can  stick  your  finger  in  and 
it  will  ^o  right  through.  The  brand  had  the  effect  of  rotting  the  blanket, 
30  I  F 


466 

so  that  you  could  put  your  finger  through  where  the  brand  is.  It  is  rotten 
so  that  you  can  easily  break  a  hole. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  you  have  seen  a  good  many  of  them  that 
had  holes  in  them  where  the  brand  was  made  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  cold  weather  at  the  time  this  issue  of  blankets  was  made  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  storming  at  the  time. 

Q.  Had  there  been  much  cold  weather  before  that  time  that  you  re- 
nieniber  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir ;  we  had  one  storm  before  that. 

Q.  Had  the  Indians  been  suffering  for  the  want  of  those  blankets  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  very  certain  that  there  were  only  IS  bales  of  blankets 
received  here  and  issued  at  that  time  ? 

A.  -Yes,  sir ;  that  is  all  I  saw.  I  interpreted  to  the  Indians  and  read 
the  articles  out  to  them.  There  were  3,000  blankets. 

Q.  You  think  there  could  not  have  been  more  than  18  bales  of 
blankets  issued  here  at  that  time  without  you  knowing  it  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell.     I  was  not  here  all  the  time.     I  was  camped  out. 

Q.  Was  not  this  issue  of  annuity-goods  all  made  in  one  day  ? 

A.  It  was  made  in  two  days. 

Q.  Were  you  there  both  days  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  time  of  the  issue? 

A.  Yres,  sir;  I  helped  to  put  them  out,  in  the  pile,  myself. 

Q.  Bid  you  count  the  number  of  bales  of  blankets  before  you  began 
issuing  them  ! 

A.  I  never  went  in  the  warehouse  before  the  issuing  began. 

Q.  When  did  you  count  the  bales  of  blankets  "I 

A.  When  they  rolled  them  outside. 

Q.  Did  you  count  the  blankets  at  all  while  they  were  all  in  the  ware 
house  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  didn't  see  them  at  all  when  they  were  in  the  ware 
house. 

Q.  Were  you  standing  inside  or  outside  the  warehouse  ? 

A.  I  had"  to  stand  outside  to  show  them  what  parties  to  put  the  pile 
to. 

Q.  Were  those  blankets  brought  outside  in  the  bales,  or  were  the  bales 
opened  inside  the  store-house  ? 

A.  Brought  them  outside  and  cut  them  loose  and  divided  them. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  memorandum  at  the  time  of  the  number  of 
bales  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  in  stating  the  number  of  bales  to  be  eighteen,  you  depend 
entirely  upon  your  memory  about  it  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  issue  of  beef-cattle  made  here  to  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  seen  some. 

Q.  When! 

A.  I  saw  some  there  last  fall  and  this  spring. 

Q.  About  what  time  last  fall  ? 

A.  I  saw  them  in  November. 

Q.  Did  you  see  those  cattle  weighed  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  see  them  weighed. 


467 

Q.  Were  you  out  at  the  corral  I 

A.  I  was  not  at  the  scales  ;  they  were  weighed  when  I  got  there,  I 
guess  ;  I  guess  they  must  have  been,  for  they  issued  them  right  out. 

Q.  Mr.  Eeshaw,  what  kind  of  cattle  were  those  that  were  issued  on 
that  occasion  ? 

A.  They  were  small  cattle  ;  the  most  of  them  were  not  fit  for  beef. 

Q.  Have  you  had  experience  in  the  weighing  of  cattle,  so  that  you 
could  give  an  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  could  not  do  it,  because  I  have  not  been  around  when  the  cattle 
have  been  weighed. 

Q.  But  have  you  seen  other  cattle  weighed  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  big  beef-cattle  weighed. 

Q.  Well,  has  your  observation  among  cattle  been  such  that  you  could 
state  something  near  what  would  be  the  probable  average  weigkt  of 
those  cattle  I 

A.  It  would  be  pretty  hard  for  me  to  say  that ;  I  could  not  very  well 
tell ;  I  would  have  to  guess  at  it ;  but  they  were  mighty  small  cattle. 

Q.  And  you  are  not  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  average  weight 
of  such  cattle  as  to  be  able  to  say  what  those  would  probably  weigh — to 
hazard  an  opinion  on  the  subject  f1 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a  lot  of  seven  or  more  cattle  that  were  examined 
by  General  Bradley  and  Captain  Mix  ? 

A.  I  had  just  left  then  $  they  were  examined  about  the  time  I  left. 

Q.  Did  you  see  those  cattle  ? 

A.  I  saw  the  same  lot  that  were  issued ;  and  there  were  some  left  over, 
and  they  were  taken  up  to  the  herd. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  these  cattle  that  were  examined  by  General 
Bradley,  Captain  Mix,  and  Lieutenant  Hay  were  a  portion  of  those  that 
were  left  over  from  the  delivery  of  cattle  that  you  saw  in  November  ? 

A.  They  must  have  been  some  of  them,  because  it  was  the  same  issue, 
and  they  drove  them  up  there,  and  I  left  then  and  started  back  to  Fort 
Laiainie,  and  I  heard  that  General  Bradley  and  Captain  Mix  went  up 
there,  and  Professor  Marsh,  I  believe,  was  with  them,  and  saw  the  same 
cattle. 

Q.  That  particular  lot  of  some  seven  head,  perhaps  you  did  not  see 
those  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  see  them. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  that  were  left  over  from  the  other  issue1? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  they  were  driven  to  the  herd  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  those  particularly  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  many  were  there,  do  you  recollect ! 

A.  Yes  j  about  enough  for  another  issue  ;  about  300  head,  or  a  little 
more. 

Q.  W^hat  kind  of  cattle  were  they  ? 

A.  They  were  the  same  as  the  rest  of  them  that  they  had  issued — 
small  and  poor. 

Q.  Were  they  in  good  order  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  usual  for  cattle  in  that  season  of  the  year  to  be  poor  in  this 
section  of  country  ? 

A,  No,  sir ;  cattle  that  have  been  out  and  stopped  out  for  a  while, 
would  be  good  beef- cattle. 


468 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that  that  they  are  Texas  cattle  that  have  been 
on  the  range  in  this  section  of  country  ?  Would  they  be  in  good  order"? 

A.  Yes;  but  these  were  cattle  that  must  have  been  driven  right 
through. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  term  through-cattle  in  this  country  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  other  issues  of  cattle  besides  that  one  in  Novem 
ber  I 

A.  I  saw  them  last  spring. 

Q.  About  what  time  f    Do  you  recollect  ? 

A.  In  April ;  I  could  not  tell  what  part  of  April. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  those  ? 

A.  They  were  all  cows,  most  of  them  ;  some  of  them  were  very  old 
cows,  and  some  of  them  were  a  little  over  a  year  old. 

Q.  What  you  call  yearlings  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  in  good  order  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  very  poor  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  were  poor  ;  one  of  them  fell  down  here  and  the  In 
dians  butchered  him  ;  he  could  not  run  to  the  herd — could  not  travel  to 
the  herd. 

Q.  Were  there  any  steers  among  that  issue  at  all? 

A.  Very  few  steers  in  that  issue. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  issue  of  cattle  that  you  saw  beside  those 
two — one  in  November  and  one  in  April  ? 

A.  I  never  went  round  to  the  issues  after  that.  I  was  around  all  the 
time,  but  I  never  went  to  the  corrals  where  they  issued  them — yes,  I 
was  at  one  issue. 

Q.  But  I  understand  you  saw  another  herd  that  was  being  driven  to 
the  agency  herd? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  last  one  you  speak  of  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  that  one  about  how  many  yearlings  do  you  suppose  there 
were  ? 

A.  I  saw  them  weighing  that  last  lot  of  cattle  ;  that  was  in  the  spring, 
after  I  got  back  from  Washington.  It  was  in  the  last  part  of  June,  I 
believe  it  was. 

Q.  I  mean  before  that,  before  June;  the  one  you  saw  in  April  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  how  many  there  were. 

Q.  Do  you  think  half  of  them  were  yearlings  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  one-fourth  of  them  were  yearlings  ? 

A.  Not^  quite  that  many;  but  they  were  all  sizes;  two-year  olds, 
three-year  olds 

Q.  Have  you  been  trading  with  the  Indians  some  heretofore  ? 

A.  I  traded  during  the  winter. 
Q.  Did  you  buy  beef-hides  from  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  early  last  spring,  when  I  went  down  to  the  Republican 
with  them  and  came  back  here. 

Q.  Did  you  buy  the  hides  on  the  Bepublican  or  here  ? 

A.  I  bought  the  hides  here. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  of  about  how  many  hides  you  bought  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  145 ;  I  think  something  like  that. 

Q.  Have  you  dealt  a  good  deal  in  beef-hides  in  your  life  ? 


469 

A.  No,  sir ;  that  was  the  first  time  I  ever  bought  any. 

Q.  J)o  you  remember  about  the  average  weight  of  those  hides? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not  got  the  receipt  of  them  yet;  1  sent  them  to 
Omaha,  and  have  not  got  the  return  yet. 

Q.  Did  you  weigh  them  when  you  bought  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  green  hi<les  or  dry  ? 

A.  I  bought  them  green,  just  as  they  came  off  the  cattle  ;  they  had  not 
been  dried. 

Q.  How  did  the  Indians  have  as  many  as  145  green  hides  at  once  ! 

A.  They  issued  out  as  high  as  300  head  at  the  time  of  that  issue, 
and  they  traded  just  as  soon  as  they  skinned  them  off;  they  don't  dry 
them  at  all. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  sell  them  for  green  or  dry  ? 

A.  Dry. 

Q.  You  dried  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  weigh  any  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  weighed  one  of  an  American  steer,  and  it  weighed  44 
pounds.  It  was  an  awful  big  steer  ;  netted  1,600  pounds.  That  was  at 
Fort  Laramie. 

Q.  Those  hides  you  bought  of  the  Indians,  were  they  large  or  small 
hides  ? 

A.  They  were  different  sizes;  some  were  small,  and  some  were  pretty 
good  size.  They  are  of  different  sizes. 

Q.  Were  there  any  very  small  ones  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  many  do  you  think  ? 

A.  About  half  were  small;  very  small. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  mode  of  the  Indians,  skinning  a  beeve,  as  to 
whether  he  takes  off  the  whole  of  the  hide. 

A.  He  takes  off  all  except  the  neck  from  the  joint  of  the  head. 

Q.  Does  he  skin  the  legs  as  Americans  do  ? 

A.  He  don't  skin  it  clean  down,  only  about  half  way;  about  to  the 
knee-joint. 

Q.  Is  it  a  pretty  general  custom  among  the  Indians  to  take  off  a 
lariat  from  the  outside  of  a  beef-hide  before  they  sell  it  I 

A.  Some  of  them  do.  They  take  it  around  the  leg  more  than  from 
anywhere  else,  and  some  of  them  will  take  half  of  it  to  make  soles  of 
moccasins,  and  try  to  trade  the  other  half  for  a  whole  hide. 

Q.  Do  you  knoV  whether  there  had  been  any  lariats  or  soles  taken 
off  from  those  hides  you  bought  1 

A.  The  ones  I  bought  had  half  of  their  legs  off — the  way  they  skin 
them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything,  Mr.  Eeshaw,  of  any  stampedes  of  the  In 
dian  cattle  here  ? 

A.  I  heard  of  one. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  it  of  your  own  personal  knowledge  ? 

A.  Well,  the  Boslers'  herder  told  me  he  wanted  to  sell  me  some  of 
the  cattle.  1  don't  know  his  name. 

Q.  How  did  he  come  to  tell  you  that  ? 

A.  He  drove  the  cattle  here,  and  I  had  my  teams  on  the  road  freight 
ing. 

Q.  But  where  did  you  see  him  ? 


470 

A.  Ou  the  Platte  where  the  herd  was. 

Q.  Were  the  stampeded  cattle  then  in  the  herd  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  had  been  brought  here  and  stampeded  and  were 
back  in  the  herd  then  $  and  this  herder  told  me  they  were  there,  and 
offered  to  sell  me  some. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  how  many  cattle  were  stampeded  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  didn't  ask  how  many,  but  he  told  me  he  would  pick  me 
out  two  yoke  of  steers.  He  told  me  they  were  cattle  which  had  been 
received  and  stampeded  back  to  the  herd. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  agent  here  ever  got  those  cattle  back 
or  not  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  stampede  you  know  about  ? 

A.  That  is  all  I  know  about. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  those  stampeded  cattle  were  afterward  driven 
back  here  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  don't  know.  They  were  back  in  the  herd,  and  must  have  been 
driven  back  here  again. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  if  they  were  driven  back  again ,  whether  the  agent 
receipted  for  them  a  second  time  ? 

A.  Of  course,  if  nobody  told  him  about  it  he  would  receive  them  a 
a  second  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  did  or  not ! 

A.  No,  sir  •  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  rations  that  were  being  issued  to  the  Indians  last  No 
vember'? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

(^.  What  kind  of  flour  was  it? 

A.  Well,  there  was  some  good  flour  among  it,  and  some  flour  they 
could  not  use. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  a  good  deal  of  it — a  good  many  sacks  ? 

A.  I  drew  some  here  and  got  some  from  the  Indians  ;  but  the  most  of 
it  I  had  to  feed  the  cows  with ;  I  could  not  use  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  reason  you  could  not  use  it — was  it  spoiled  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  made  awful  black  bread  ;  you  could  not  raise  it  at  all. 

Q.  Was  it  otherwise  damaged  so  that  it  was  unwholesome  or  bad 
food  * 

A.  Its  natural  look  was  black  ;  it  looked  black. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  use  any  of  it  at  all  f 

A.  I  tried  to  cook  it,  but  could  not  do  it ;  as  soon  as  you  would  cook 
it,  it  would  not  raise  at  all  5  it  would  be  the  same  as  when  you  put  it  in  ; 
it  would  be  black  as  could  be,  and  you  leave  it  out  in  the  cold  a  little 
while  it  would  be  just  as  hard  as  hard-.tack. 

Q.  Did  it  taste  bad,  or  smell  bad  ? 

A.  It  smelled  bad,  but  it  did  not  have  any  taste  at  all. 

Q.  Did  it  smell  bad  before  it  Avas  cooked  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  if  it  smelled  bad  before  it  was  cooked,  how  did  you  come  to 
cook  it  ? 

A.  It  was  the  women  who  cooked  it,  trying  every  sack  ;  what  was  bad 
we  fed  to  the  cows,  and  what  was  good  we  kept  for  ourselves. 

Q.  Could  not  you  tell  what  was  good  and  what  was  bad  by  looking 
at  it,  without  having  to  cook  it  ? 


471 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  I  was  not  at  home  all  the  time.  I  was  all  the  time 
running  round. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  coffee  that  they  were  issuing  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.          \ 

Q.  What  kiud  of  coffee  was  that  ? 

A.  There  was  a  good  deal  of  black  coffee  in  it — these  black  grains  5 
pretty  nearly  half  of  it  was  black. 

Q.  Did  you  draw  some  of  it ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  use  it  ? 

A.  Yes,vsir ;  but  I  took  the  black  grains  out. 

Q.  Did  it  make  good  coffee  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  of  the  sugar  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  sugar  was  it  ? 

A.  It  was  this  A  yellow  sugar  ;  it  was  right  yellow  sugar. 

Q.  Was  it  good  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  sugar  was  good  enough,  but  it  had  an  awful  smell 
when  you  opened  the  barrel ;  it  smelled  awful. 

Q.  Did  it  smell  bad  9 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  it  taste  bad  ! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  dirt  in  it! 

A.  No,  sir  ;  there  was  no  dirt  in  it ;  it  was  clear  sugar. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  examine  any  of  the  tobacco  they  were  issuing  at  that- 
time  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  •  I  have  seen  it. 

Q.  "What  kiud  of  tobacco  was  that "? 

A.  It  was  this  plug-tobacco  ;  there  was  more  molasses  in  it  than  any 
thing  else.  I  know  when  you  put  it  out  in  the  sun  and  tried  to  dry  it 
it  would  be  worse — it  gets  more  damp  ;  when  you  put  it  close  to  the  fire 
or  in  the  sun  to  dry  a  plug  it  would  swell  up  so  thick  (indicating  about 
four  inches.)  They  hardly  ever  use  the  tobacco  ;  they  throw  it  away  ; 
it  burns  their  tongues  to  smoke  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  suffering  among  the  Indians  last 
winter  and  spring  for  the  want  of  food  and  clothing  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  last  spring  when  I  got  back  here. 

Q.  Were  they  suffering  for  something  to  eat  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  have  no  rations  to  give  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  he  did  not  have  any. 

Q.  No  beef ! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  flour? 

A.  No  flour ;  sometimes  only  flour  straight  would  come ;  I  mean  a 
wagon-load  exclusively  of  flour. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  extent  of  their  suffering?  Will  you  describe  it 
to  us  in  some  way  so  that  we  would  understand  what  the  extent  of  their 
starvation  was  ? 

A.  When  I  got  here,  in  April,  they  did  not  have  any  beef,  any  sugar, 
or  coffee  ;  all  they  had  was  pork — straight  pork. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  how  long  they  had  been  out  of  these  things 
when  you  came  back  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  ;  only  I  heard,  when  I  came  to  Sidney,  that  they 


472 

were  out ;  that  was  in  the  first  part  of  March.  I  had  been  down  on  the 
^Republican  with  the  Indians. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  they  continued  out  of  those  things  after 
you  came  back  ? 

A.  It  was  a  month.  Tt  was  a  month  before  they  got  any  issue  of  beef. 
There  was  one  whole  month  after  I  got  back  here  that  they  did  not  get 
any  beef. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  reason  why  they  did  not  get  any 
beef  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  samples  of  supplies  that  were  given  to  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  by  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not  see  them  ;  that  was  done  after  I  left. 

Q.  Did  you  sign,  in  Washington,  on  the  4th  of  June  last,  a  statement 
in  writing  that  you  were  present  at  the  wrhole  issue  of  annuity-goods, 
and  saw  all  the  annuity-goods  delivered,  and  that  there  were  only 
eighteen  bales  of  blankets  ?  » 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  understand  you  to  say  now  that  that  is  the  truth  * 

A.  Yes,  sir;  18  bales  of  blankets;  that  is,  3,600  blankets. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  now  that  that  is  a  fact ;  that  there  were 
only  18  bales  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  think  there  could  have  been  any  more  issued  without 
your  knowing  it  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell.  I  lived  away  about  a  mile.  I  didn't  come  here 
until  about  eight  or  nine  o'clock. 

Q.  Might  there  have  been  twice  as  many  blankets,  and  vou  not  know 
it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know7  Little  Wound  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Little  Wound  examined  the  blankets  any  or 
not  ? 

A,  I  dourt  know;  the  agent  wanted  to  take  him  in,  but  they  refused 
to  go  in. 

Q.  Who  refused? 

A.  Ked  Cloud  and  Little  Wound  refused  to  go  in  and  see. 

Q.  Thsy  did  not  go  into  the  warehouse? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  rolled  the  bales  of  blankets  out  of  the  ware 
house  when  they  were  issued  ? 

A.  A  good  many  men  were  rolling  them  out. 

Q.  You  don't  know  who  they  were  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  state  in  Washington,  on  the  5th  of  June,  1875,  that  of  the 
cattle  issued  here  in  May,  1875,  more  than  one-third  of  them  were  year 
lings? 

A.  That  is  the  one  I  just  now  told  you  of;  that  was  in  May. 

Q.  Did  you  state  then  that  more  than  one  third  of  them  were  year 
lings  ? 

A.  I  stated  just  what  I  said — riot  that  there  was  one-fourth  yearlings  ; 
they  were  two-year-olds  and  three-year-olds. 

Q.  You  did  not  say  in  Washington  that  there  was  more  than  one-third 
of  them  yearlings  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not. 


473 

Q.  Did  you  say  in  Washington,  at  the  same  time,  that  the  number  of 
hides  you  had  bought  was  60  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had  only  bought  that  much  at  that  time. 

Q.  Have  you  since  bought  the  remainder  of  145  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  sign  a  certificate  in  Washington,  on  the  5th  of  June,  1875, 
stating  "that  in  the  summer  of  1874  the  herd  of  cattle  at  the  Red  Cloud 
agency  which  had  been  received  by  the  agent  from  the  contractor, 
stampeded,  and  most  of  them,  over  100  in  number,  went  back  to  the 
contractor's  herd  on  the  Platte  ?  •' 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  signed  that  certificate,  that  there  were  more  than  1001 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  that  there  were  over  a  hundred  ? 

A.  That  is  what  the  herder  told  me. 

Q.  Did  you  know  anything  at  all  except  what  the  herder  told  you  ? 

A.  That  is  all. 

Q.  How  could  you  state  that  it  was  so  in  your  certificate  ? 

A.  That  is  the  way  I  told  him,  and  he  wrote  it  down,  and  he  has  got 
it  different  now.  I  told  him  just  as  I  have  told  you. 

Q.  Did  you  say  there  that  these  same  cattle  were  afterward  driven  to 
the  Jf  ency  and  were  receipted  for  a  second  time  by  the  agent  ?  Your 
certificate  says  that  you  stated  that  of  your  own  knowledge. 

A.  No,  sir;  I  stated  it  just  the  way  I  told  you.  I  did  not  know 
whether  they  were  driven  back  or  not.  All  I  know  is  from  the  herder, 
and  he  (Professor  Marsh)  wrote  it  down  the  same  way  ;  and  that  is  the 
reason  1  signed  it. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  to  write  this  down :  "  These  same  cattle  were 
afterwards  driven  to  the  agency,  and  were  receipted  for  a  second  time 
by  the  agent." 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  wrote  this  thing  down  for  you  in  Washington  ? 

A.  Mr.  Marsh. 

Q.  Is  that  Professor  Marsh,  who  was  out  here  hunting  bones  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  didn't  tell  him  to  write  it  down,  anything  of  the  kind. 
He  kept  after  me  asking  me  questions  about  it.. 

Q.  After  he  had  written  it  down,  did  you  read  it  over  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  read  it  to  me,  and  just  the  way  I  told  him. 

Q.  Then  you  had  not  told  him  that  you  knew  there  were  over  one 
hundred  cattle  that  stampeded  back  to  the  contractors  herd  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  tell  him  you  knew  these  cattle  had  been  driven  back 
to  the  agency  and  receipted  for  a  second  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  that  anybody  told  you  so  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  a  married  man  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  married  to  a  member  of  the  tribe  ? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  children  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  draw  rations  from  the  agency  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


474 

Q.  For  how  many  persons  ? 

A.  Nine. 

Q.  You  are  a  half-breed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Son  of  a  Sioux  mother ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q-  And  have  always  lived  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  whose  request  did  you  make  a  statement  concerning  the  num 
ber  of  blankets  ? 

A.  He  asked  me  about  it  when  I  was  in  Washington — Professor 
Marsh. 

Q.  Had  you  been  at  work  about  the  agency  before  that  time  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  had  just  come  in,  and  the  Doctor  asked  me  to  use  my  in 
fluence  to  count  the  Indians. 

Q.  You  had  been  discharged  from  that  service  on  the  13th  of  Septem 
ber — the  day  before  the  issue  ? 

A.  I  was  discharged  after  the  issue. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  particularly  about  that? 

A.  I  could  not  remember  what  time  it  was. 

Q.  Will  you  say  now  that  you  had  not  been  discharged  on  the  13th, 
the  day  before  the  issue  1  * 

A.  I  was  paid  off  at  the  issue. 

Q.  Were  you  not  discharged  on  the  13th  and  paid  off  at  the  end  of 
the  month? 

A.  I  could  not  tell. 

Q.  Now,  were  you  at  work  for  the  agent  on  the  day  of  the  issue  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  before  the  issue, 

Q.  I  mean  on  the  day  the  goods  were  being  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  ? 

A.  I  was  interpreting,  standing  out  at  the  pile. 

Q.  Where  was  the  agent  at  that  time? 

A.  He  was  standing  outside,  reading  over  the  list  of  goods  for  each 
Indian. 

Q.  What  tribe  or  what  chief  did  you  interpret  to  ? 

A.  To  Ked  Cloud  and  Little  Wound,  and  all  these  Sioux  here. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  how  many  blankets  Ked  Cloud  had  for  his 
band  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  could  not  tell ;  the  bales  were  cut  open  and  divided 
out;  the  agent  or  his  men  cut  the  bales, 

Q.  How  many  bales  did  lied  Cloud  have  for  his  band? 

A.  He  did  not  have  any  whole  bale. 

Q.  Did  any  Indian  have  a  wrhole  bale  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  of  those  eighteen  bales  belonged  to  the 
Sioux  ? 

A.  They  all  belonged  to  the  Sioux. 

Q.  The  Arapahoes  and  Cheyennes  did  not  have  any  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  there  were  no  goods  for  them. 

Q.  What  time  in  the  morning  did  you  get  here? 

A.  On  the  first  day  of  the  issue? 

Q.  Yes? 

A.  Just  before  they  commenced  to  issue,  because  we  could  not  get 
the  Indians  to  sign  the  papers  for  a  long  time,  and  we  did  not  start 
until  11  o'clock,  I  guess;  the  agent  was  right  by  me. 


475 

Q.  Did  any  Indian  ask  you  to  count  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who? 

A.  Bed  Cloud  and  Little  Wound. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  them  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  On  that  day? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  At  that  time? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  there  were  3,600  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  3,500  blankets  were  counted  out  to  the  Indians? 

A.  That  is  all  there  was. 

Q.  Which  did  you  take  the  most  pains  to  do — to  count  the  blankets 
as  they  came  out  of  the  bales,  or  the  bales  themselves? 

A.  I  counted  just  the  bales. 

Q.  You  say  there  may  have  been  blankets  issued  which  you  did  not 
see.  Explain  to  the  commission  how  that  could  be. 

A.  That  I  could  not  tell ;  there  may  have  been  some  more  issued, 
but  I  don't  know  anything  about  it  j  and  I  could  not  tell  next  morning ; 
I  was  here  late.  It  stormed  all  the  first  day ;  and  the  second  day  I  got 
here  about  10  o'clock.  They  were  not  issuing  blankets  on  the  second 
day  ;  they  issued  all  the  blankets  I  saw,  on  the  first  day. 

Q.  I  ask  you  whether  you  know  that  no  blankets  were  issued  on  the 
second  day  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  were  not  here  ? 

A.  In  the  morning 

Q.  I  ask  you  whether  you  say  to  this  commission  that  no  blankets 
could  have  been  issued  which  you  did  not  see  ? 

A.  If  there  were  any  blankets  issued  that  morning,  I  would  see  it, 
because  when  I  came  there  was  only  a  few  boxes  of  axes  at  the  pile. 
They  would  have  been  in  the  pile,  and  I  would  have  seen  them. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  first  tell  the  number  of  bales  you  saw  ? 

A.  Eed  Cloud. 

Q.  Whom  next  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  anybody  else. 

Q.  Until  when  ? 

A.  Until  I  went  to  Washington,  and  Mr.  Marsh  got  after  me. 

Q.  Didn't  he  tell  you  he  thought  there  were  twenty-five  bales  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  he  asked  me  that  or  not. 

Q.  You  then,  for  the  first  time,  told  him  that  there  were  only  eighteen 
bales  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  white  man  did  you  first  tell  that  there  were  only  eighteen 
bales  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  spoke  to  any  one  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  bales  ought  to  come  to  these  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  pairs  of  blankets  these  people  ought  to 
have  ? 

A.  I  know  they  used  to  have  double  that  amount  of  them. 

Q.  How  many  did  they  ever  have  at  any  one  time  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  as  high  as  forty  bales. 

Q.  How  many  blankets  would  you  call  that  ? 


476 

A.  There  would  be  fifty  pairs  in  a  bale. 

Q.  How  many  Indians  were  there  here  to  receive  blankets,  do  you 
think,  last  November  ? 

A.  Just  what  I  registered,  about  9,000  and  over. 

Q.  What  part  of  the  people  got  blankets  f 

A.  There  was  Red  Leaf,  of  the  Washashaws.  He  had  the  biggest 
band.  The  Indians  borrowed  wagons  and  came  here  with  the  wagons 
and  loaded  them  up  and  took  them  to  their  camp. 

Q.  Did  yon  ever  see  the  blankets  there  as  they  were  rolled  out  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  stamp  on  these  blankets,  as  they  were  beiug 
distributed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see,  then,  that  the  stamp  was  bad  ?  Did  you  see  any  holes 
in  the  blankets? 

A.  Not  at  that  time.  It  didn't  hurt  the  red  blankets.  There  were 
red  and  black  and  white  and  green  blankets.  The  black  ones  were  the 
only  ones  I  saw  injured. 

Q.  Now,  after  the  issue  on  the  14th  or  15th,  or  either  of  those  days, 
did  you  go  into  the  warehouse  ? 

A.  I  went  in  on  the  second  day. 

Q.  You  did  not  go  in  before  the  issue  commenced  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  know  anything  about  how  many  bales  of  blankets  were 
in  the  building? 

A.  No,  sir.  On  the  second  day  after  the  issue  I  went  in  again,  and  I 
saw  no  blankets  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  blankets  of  that  kind  after  that  time  in  the 
possession  of  Dr.  Saville  "I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  any  one  of  his  employes  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  blankets  that  you  had  reason  to  suppose  were 
delivered  to  him  by  other  persons  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Rave  you  any  reason  to  suppose  he  issued  all  the  blankets  he  re 
ceived  ? 

A.  I  think  he  did. 

Q.  Have  yon  any  reason  to  suppose  that  any  blankets  he  received 
were  not  delivered  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  If  he  did  I  did  not  see  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  there  were  any  blankets  which 
came  to  him  that  he  did  not  deliver  to  the  Indians  ! 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  trouble  with  the  agent  ? 

A.  No ;  only  once,  here,  at  the  time  I  helped  him  to  register  the  In 
dians. 

Q.  What  trouble  did  you  have  with  the  agent  at  that  time  ? 

A.  He  asked  me  to  use  my  influence  to  get  the  Indians  to  consent  to 
be  registered,  and  he  promised  to  give  me  a  license  to  go  and  trade  with 
the  Indians. 

Q.  What  sort  of  trade  did  he  mean  ? 

A.  To  buy  their  robes  when  they  went  out  on  a  buffalo-hunt.  After 
I  got  the  Indians  registered  he  wanted  me  to  take  in  Mr.  Brown  and 
Mr.  Appleton,  and  I  wouldn't  do  it,  and  he  would  not  give  me  the  license. 
He  then  brought  in  George  Breckeuridge,  the  corral  boss  at  Fort  Lara- 


477 

mie.     Mr.  Brown  and  Mr.  Breckenridge  came  in  while  I  was  waiting  for 
the  license,  and  wanted  him  to  give  them  a  license  to  trade.    I  spoke  to 
him  about  it.    I  told  him  I  was  waiting  for  the  license  he  promised  me, 
and  he  said  to  me  that  Brown  and  Appleton  had  told  him  I  did  not  want 
any  license;  that  I  was  going  on  my  own  hook  anyhow.    I  told  him  I 
never  said  any  such  thing  to  either  one  of  them.     T  hat  is  all  I  said  to 
him,  and  he  told  me  to  go  ahead  and  trade  without  a  license,  and  so  he 
told  Breckenridge.    Brown  got  in  with  Breckenridge. 
Q.  Did  you  go  J? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Breckenridge  go  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  trade  upon  that  hunt  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.    The  Indians  were  starving  out  there,  and  did  not  have 
any  buffaloes  all  that  winter.     They  did  not  get  but  100. 
Q.  Was  that  the  only  difficulty  you  had  with  Dr.  Saville  ? 
A.  That  is  all. 

Q,  Did  he  refuse  to  give  a  license  to  anybody  ? 
A.  I  don't  know,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  difficulty  you  have  had  with  him  ? 
A.  That  is  all. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  time  of  this  issue  in  November  ! 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  after  the  issue. 
Q.  Had  Dr.  Saville  promised  to  give  you  a  written  license? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  that  promise  made  ? 
A.  Eight  here  in  the  office. 
Q.  W^ho  was  present  ? 

A.  Me  and  him  was  all  alone;  there  was  no  other  person  present. 
Q.  Did  he  and  you  talk  about  it  together  afterward  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  he  even  offered  me  to  be  sheriff  here  to  catch  the  Indi 
ans7  stolen  stock. 

Q.  Did  he  and  you  talk  about  the  license  afterward  ? 
A.  Not  until  after  I  registered  the  Indians  and  the  goods  were  issued. 
Q.  Did  you  before  the  time  of  which  you  speak,  when  Brown  and 
Breckenridge  came  in  ? 

A.  Before  the  goods  were  issued,  Brown  came  and  asked  me  if  I  was 
going  trading ;  that  he  heard  the  Doctor  had  offered  to  let  me  trade.     I 
told  him  yes ;   and  Brown  says,   "  I  am  sub-agent,  the  pay  is  mighty 
small,  and  I  would  like  to  get  in  with  you ;"  and  he  said  he  would  help 
me  to  get  all  of  the  other  trade,  and  stop  all  the  other  people  from  trad 
ing,  if  I  went  in  with  him. 
Q.  Did  you  refuse  that  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  any  other  person  except  Dr.  Saville  and  Mr.  Brown 
about  that J? 
A.  That  is  all. 
Q.  No  other  person  ? 

A.  No  other  person.  After  that  it  was  all  over.  The  chief  clerk 
heard  it,  and  he  made  it  oat ;  and  the  officers  asked  me  about  it,  and  I 
told  them. 

Q.  Were  you  the  only  person  that  went  from  h,ere  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  cattle  that  have  been  issued  during  this  month 
at  the  agency  ? 


478 

A.  No,  sir.     I  just  got  back  yesterday. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  suppose  the  largest  cattle  which  came  here  in 
November  would  weigh  ? 

A.  In  November  they  had  nice  cattle;  good  beef-cattle. 

Q.  At  the  time  Professor  Marsh  was  here  ? 

A.  No ;  before  that ;  the  first  of  the  issue.  The  last  part,  the  time 
Marsh  was  here,  they  were  pretty  poor  cattle. 

Q.  How  much  would  they  weigh? 

A.  Not  very  much. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  experience  that  would  enable  you  to  judge 
of  the  weight  of  cattle ? 

A.  It  is  pretty  hard  for  me  to  tell.  I  have  never  dealt  in  cattle,  or 
weighed  beef  after  it  was  slaughtered. 

Q.  Can  you  read? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  write? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  have  had  no  experience  in  weighing  cattle,  or  judging  of  the 
weight  of  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  give  any  opinion  as  to  what  those  cattle  issued  in  Novem 
ber  would  average  on  the  hoof? 

A.  I  do  not  think  they  would  average  over  seven  or  eight  hundred 
pounds  on  the  hoof. 

Q.  You  speak  of  the  sugar  as  being  very  bad.  It  was  dark-brown 
sugar — yellow  sugar  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  leather  moist  ? 

A.  Very  wet ;  kind  of  damp. 

Q.  You  say  it  sinelled  bad  ? 

A.  It  smelled  as  soon  as  you  opened  the  barrel. 

Q.  What  did  it  smell  like  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  It  did  not  taste  bad  ? 

A.  No. 

Q.  And  it  was  clean  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  does  that  sugar  look  compared  with  the  sugar  you  had  at  that 
time  ?  [Sample  of  sugar  shown.] 

A.  That  is  pretty  near  the  same  kind. 

Q.  Does  this  smell  as  that  did  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Does  it  not  smell  as  strong  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  that  smell  as  if  it  was  foul  or  dirty,  or  did  it  smell  strong  of 
molasses  ? 

A.  Strong  of  molasses.  The  sugar  they  are  having  now  is  all  right. 
That  sugar  was  only  dark  and  smelled  strong  of  molasses.  That  is 
what  I  mean  when  I  say  it  smelled  strong  and  bad.  ^^ 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  was  wholesome — fit  sugar  to  eat  ? 

A.  The  sugar  was  good  enough  to  use  in  coffee,  only  when  you  opened 
the  barrel  it  had  a  strong  smell. 

Q.  You  had  never  seen  anything  like  it  before  since  you  have  been 
here  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


479 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  With  regard  to  the  coumt  of  the  Indians,  did  the  Indians  seriously 
object  to  being  counted  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  what  reason,  as  you  understood  ? 

A.  They  were  afraid  they  would  get  rations  just  the  same  as  troops— 
every  family  draw  separately  for  itself.  That  is  what  they  were  afraid 
of;  that  is,  draw  by  families  instead  of  by  bands. 

Q.  Was  there  any  other  objection  ? 

A.  That  is  all  the  objection  I  heard. 

Q.  Did  they  make  or  threaten  any  serious  resistance  to  the  counting  ? 

A.  They  said  the  agent  told  them  that  if  they  would  not  be  registered 
he  could  not  issue  the  goods  or  the  rations  to  them.  Eed  Cloud  an 
swered  him  to  take  his  goods  and  rations  back  where  he  got  them ;  that 
he  did  not  want  to  be  counted. 

Q.  Did  you  consider  that  there  was  actual  clanger  connected  with  the 
attempt  to  count  them  ? 

A.  Well,  yes  ;  there  was  a  little. 

Q.  Did  your  count  of  nine  thousand  and  upward  include  all  of 
them  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  stated  already  that  it  did  not  include  any  of  the  Ohey- 
enues  and  Arapahoes.  Did  it  include  any  of  the  northern  Indians? 

A.  No,  sir ;  there  were  very  few  of  them  here.  The  last  day  of  the 
counting  I  would  not  let  the  agent  come  around  with  us,  because  they 
had  threatened  him  down  here  at  one  village ;  and  I  took  his  chief  clerk 
and  several  other  men  down  to  register  the  Indians. 

Q.  Did  this  count  take  place  before  or  after  the  affair  of  the  flag 
staff. 

A.  After. 

Q.  And  you  said  before,  as  I  understood  you,  that  it  was  for  that 
reason  there  was  so  few  northern  Indians  encamped  here ;  that  they 
had  gone  off? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  northern  Indians  had  been  here,  according  to 
your  best  information,  at  any  one  time  ? 

A.  I  think  there  were  over  two  thousand  went  back  at  that  time. 

Q.  Before  any  of  them  went  back  ? 

A.  Last  summer,  at  the  issue  previous  to  the  count,  there  was  the 
largest  number  that  was  here  at  any  one  time.  They  were  coming  in 
daily  in  considerable  numbers  until  the  affair  of  the  flag-staff. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  when  the  difficulty  about  the  flag- staff  oc 
curred  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  I  was  here. 

Q.  What  time 'was  it — what  part  of  the  month  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you.     I  do  not  remember  the  day  of  the  month. 

Q.  In  what  month,  do  you  remember? 

A.  A  little  before  they  were  registered. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  month  it  was  in  ?    4 

A.  The  issue  was  in  November. 

Q.  How  soon  after  the  difficulty  about  the  flag-staff  did  the  Indians 
begin  to  leave? 

A.  They  left  that  same  day  and  all  that  night. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  estimate  remained  ? 

A.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  tell.    They  went  into  different  bands. 

Q.  So  that  it  was  not  possible  to  estimate  their  precise  number  ? 


480 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  that  remained  in  camp  by  themselves,  where  were  they  en 
camped  ? 

A.  They  were  scattered  among  their  relations.  Some  who  had  re 
lations  here  went  to  them  and  joined  their  bands. 

Q.  For  how  long  a  time  do  you  think  that  process  of  distribution  was 
going1  on? 

A.  That  day  and  night.  After  next  morning  the  excitement  quieted 
down,  and  they  stopped  going. 

Q.  Did  any  of  those  who  went  away  north  return  to  their  old  en 
campments,  as  far  as  you  know  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  do  riot  know.  I  left  then,  and  did  not  get  back  here  till 
April. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  those  who  were  scattered  among  the  various 
bands  afterward  went  out  and  encamped  by  themselves  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  go  north  with  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  In  what  direction  did  these  northern  Indians  go  ?  Where  were 
they  supposed  to  go  ? 

A.  Their  route  is  right  straight  through  the  Black  Hills;  just  a  little 
west  of  the  Black  Hills. 

Q.  Did  they  remain  in  the  Black  Hills  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  they  went  up  the  Tongue  Eiver  to  the  Yellowstone. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Professor  Marsh  went  ? 

A.  No.,  sir;  I  do  not  know  what  place  he  went  to. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  the  return  you  made  of  nine  thousand  and  up 
ward  was  a  correct  count  of  the  Indians  who  were  here  at  ihat  time, 
except  the  Cheyenues  and  Arapahoes  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Now7,  can  you  give  us  an  opinion  as  to  how  many  Cheyenues  and 
Arapahoes  there  were  here  at  that  time  that  you  did  not  count  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  never  went  around  to  their  villages,  and  could 
not  say. 

Q.  How  do  you  come  to  state  that  thirty-six  hundred  blankets  were 
issued  ?  Where  did  you  get  that  information  ? 

A.  I  got  that  from  the  Doctor.  He  got  a  paper  and  read  it  out,  and 
told  me  there  were  thirty-six  hundred  blankets.  4 

Q.  Are  you  sure  that  he  did  not  say  there  were  thirty-six  bales  ? 

A.  I  ain't  sure  of  that.  He  may  have  said  there  were  thirty-six  bales, 
not  thirty-six  hundred  blankets,  and  I  may  have  misunderstood  him. 

Q.  You  say  there  were  eighteen  bales,  and  fifty  pairs  in  a  bale.  That 
would  figure  up  eighteen  hundred  blankets.  You  say  you  may  have 
misunderstood  him  ;  that  he  may  have  said  thirty-six  bales  instead  of 
thirty-six  hundred  blankets.  Now,  in  view  of  all  this,  are  you  sure  that 
tlie  Doctor  said  anything  about  thirty-six  hundred  blankets? 

A.  I  may  have  misunderstood  him. 

Q.  You  are  aware  thattbc^re  would  be  thirty-six  hundred  blankets  in 
thirty-six  bales,  are  you  not? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  now. 

Q.  Having  that  fact  in  view,  are  you  sure  that  the  Doctor  told  you 
there  were  thirty-six  bales,  or  that  he  told  you  there  were  thirty-six 
hundred  blankets  ?  Are  you  sure  which  it  was  that  he  told  you  ? 


481 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you  which  he  told  me,  but  he  told  me  thirty-six 
hundred.  I  think  that  is  what  he  told  me. 

Q.  When  you  made  your  statement  to  Professor  Marsh,  were  you  re 
lying  more  upon  your  own  count  or  upon  what  the  Doctor  told  you  ? 
*  A.  All  I  counted  was  the  bales  of  blankets  when  they  were  rolled  out, 
and  I  went  back  to  get  Red  Cloud  to  sign  the  receipt.  The  Doctor  asked 
ine  to  go  and  get  him  to  sign  it ;  and  he  had  the  other  interpreter,  Billy, 
to  show  them  the  piles,  and  when  I  went  in  to  get  Eed  Cloud  to  sign  I  had 
only  seen  eighteen  bales.  That  is,  eighteen  bales  had  been  rolled  out 
when  I  was  asked  by  the  Doctor  to  go  and  get  Red  Cloud  to  sign.  And 
that  is  all  1  saw  $  and  when  I  came  back  they  began  to  cut  open  the 
bales. 

Q.  But  you  got  the  figures  thirty-six  hundred  from  the  Doctor's  state 
ment  J? 

A.  Yes  ;  or  the  thirty-six  bales,  whichever  it  was. 

Q.  I  understood  you'to  say  you  told  Red  Cloud  that  there  were  only 
eighteen  bales  of  blankets  rolled  out  at  that  time. 

A.  That  is  all  I  saw  before  I  went  to  Red  Cloud  to  have  him  sign 
the  receipt  for  the  goods. 

Q.  Where  was  Red  Cloud? 

A.  He  was  here  in  this  corner  room  ;  but  I  had  not  gone  in  the  ware 
house  then. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Had  you  reason  to  suppose  that  Red  Cloud  received  information 
as  to  the  number  of  bales  of  blankets  from  anyone  except  yourself? 
That  is,  did  he  rely  on  your  count  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  Red  Cloud  and  Little  Wound  asked  me  *to~count 
the  bales  that  were  rolled  out,  and  when  eighteen  bales  had  been  rolled 
out  Dr.  Saville  asked  me  to  go  and  call  Red  Cloud  to  have  him  sign 
the  receipt.  All  the  chiefs  had  signed  except  him.  When  I  came  back 
I  did  not  count  them  again.  They  were  cutting  the  bales  and  issuing 
the  blankets  out.  I  could  not  count  them  then.  There  were  eighteen 
bands  of  Indians  to  whom  goods  were  then  being  issued. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  one  of  those  bands  received  as 
much  as  a  whole  bale  of  blankets  without  being  opened  ? 

A.  None  of  them  had  a  whole  bale.     There  were  different  colors  of 
blankets,  and  they  all  got  some  of  each  kind. 
By  Mr.  A^HERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  tell  Red  Cloud  the  number  of  bales  before  or  after  they 
began  opening  them  ? 

A.  I  told  him  after  the  bales  were  opened. 

Q.  Was  there  any  chance  for  any  further  count  of  the  bales,  then, 
after  you  had  told  Red  Cloud  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  There  are  more  Sioux  Indians  in  the  North  who  never 
have  come  here  than  there  are  at  the  agency. 


TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  H.  BROWN. 

I  was  last  year  appointed  by  Dr.  Saville  as  sub-agent  to  go  down  with 

the  Indians  on  their  hunting  expedition  on  the  Republican  Fork.     It 

was,  I  believe,  with  the  approval  of  the  Department.     I  did  not  at  any 

time  say  to  Louis  Reshaw  that  the  salary  of  sub-agent  was  small,  and 

31  i  F 


482 

tbat  I  wanted  an  interest  in  his  trade.  I  bad  considered  the  question 
whether  I  would  go  there  as  trader.  Two  or  three  mouths  prior  to  ac 
cepting  the  appointment  of  sub-agent  Dr.  Saville  had  offered  me  an  ap 
pointment  as  trader.  I  asked  whether  the  trader  could  have  an  exclu 
sive  right  to  trade,  and  he  said  he  thought  not.  He  said  there  were  par 
ties  already  settled  there,  and  he  did  not  think  they  could  be  excluded 
from  trading  with  the  Indians.  He  seemed  to  doubt  whether  he  had 
authority  to  grant  a  license  to  trade  off'  from  the  reservation.  Mr. 
Breckenridge  came  over  from  Fort  Laramie  with  Professor  Marsh  about 
the  time  I  did ;  and  after  he  found  out  that  I  was  going  South  he  came 
to  me  and  asked  me  if  I  had  any  objection  to  his  going  South  as  trader 
if  I  went  as  sub-agent.  I  told  him  that  I  should  be  glad  to  have 
him  along.  He  wanted  to  know  whether  it  would  be  necessary  to 
have  a  license,  and  1  told  him  to  go  and  see  Dr.  Saville.  On  second 
consideration  I  told  him  I  did  not  think  it  would  be  necessary  for 
him  to  have  a  license,  but  to  go  and  ask  Dr.  Saville  his  opinion  in 
regard  to  it.  He  afterwards  came  back  with  Louis  Keshaw,  and  each 
wanted  to  go  as  trader.  I  told  them  that  I  did  not  think  it  would  be 
worth  their  while  to  get  a  license,  but  told  them  both  to  go  to  Dr.  Saville 
and  ask  him  about  it.  They  went  to  Dr.  Saville,  and  he  in  my  pres 
ence  told  them  that  he  did  not  think  it  would  be  of  any  advantage 
to  them  to  have  a  license.  The  Doctor  said  he  would  be  willing  to 
grant  either  of  them  a  license  on  the  approval  of  the  Department,  but  he 
did  not  think  a  licensed  trader  would  have  any  advantage  over  any  one 
without  a  license.  I  do  not  know  that  any  conclusion  was  reached  at 
that  time,  but  I  did  all  I  could  to  dissuade  Breckenridge  from  going,  as. 
I  did  not  see  how  he  could  make  any  money.  Louis  afterwards  went ; 
but  whether  the  Doctor  told  him  he  could  go  on  his  own  responsibility  I 
do  not  know.  On  further  consideration  he  concluded  that  a  license 
would  be  of  no  benefit,  and  decided  to  do  without  it.  I  never  heard  him 
complain  that  the  Doctor  had  violated  his  promise  in  not  giving  him  a 
license.  I  did  not  seek  or  obtain  in  any  respect  whatever  any  advan 
tage  from  the  trade  on  that  expedition. 

Q.  State  the  facts  respecting  a  delivery  of  about  130  head  of  cattle 
last  fall. 

A.  When  we  were  going  south  in  the  fall,  the  Doctor  had  told  me  to 
give  the  Indians  some  beef.  Mr.  Bosler  gave  me  a  note  to  his  herders, 
and  they  said,  "All  right;  take  whatever  you  want."'  I  took  about  130 
head,  and  distributed  them  to  the  Indians.  They  made  very  serious  com 
plaint  because  I  did  not  give  them  about  200  head,  f  had  no  count  of 
the  Indians,  but  took  an  estimate  of  them  as  well  as  I  could  by  counting 
lodges,  and  distributed  the  cattle  to  the  several  bands.  There  was  no 
estimate  made  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle,  but  I  sent  the  number  to  Dr. 
Saville.  I  formed  an  estimate  in  my  own  mind  of  the  weight,  but  made 
no  return  to  the  Doctor.  The  cattle  were  of  good  quality,  and  there  were 
about  half  a  dozen  calves,  which  we  did  not  count.  I  gave  a  pencil- 
memorandum  of  the  number  of  head  to  the  herder,  and  as  soon  as  I  ar 
rived  at  the  railroad  I  wrote  to  Dr.  Saville  a  full  statement.  They  were 
an  average  of  the  herd,  as  we  went  into  the  herd  and  took  out  a  bunch. 
I  passed  through  a  good  part  of  the  herd,  looking  for  some  Indians,  and 
so  saw  their  general  size  and  condition.  In  cutting  out  a  bunch  it  is  not 
easy  to  select  sizes,  and  I  aimed  to  take  an  average  of  the  whole  herd. 
The  memorandum  given  to  the  herder  was  not  given  in  form  of  a  voucher. 
The  weather  was  extremely  cold;  I  entered  my  memorandum  in  a 
little  book  belonging  to  the  herder.  I  afterward  received  orders  from  the 
agent  not  to  deliver  any  more  cattle  without  further  orders  from  this 
office,  and  he  complained  that  I  had  given  them  too  many. 


483 

TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  E.  B.  ROBERTSON. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  f 

Answer.  Second  lieutenant,  Ninth  Infantry. 

Q.  Have  you  read  Professor  Marsh's  charges  against  the  management 
of  aft'airs  at  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  saw  an  issue  of  beef-cattle  on  the  3d  of  August,  this 
year,  at  the  issue  before  that  of  yesterday,  and  a  portion  of  the  cattle 
were  very  small  in  proportion  to  the  others.  I  could  not  say  what 
weight  they  would  average.  I  don't  know  anything  about  the  weights 
of  cattle.  I  don't  think  they  would  average  as  much  as  the  cattle  we 
received  at  the  posts.  I  saw  the  pork,  tobacco,  and  sugar  issued  last  fall 
and  winter.  I  saw  the  Indians  throw  a  good  deal  of  the  pork  away.  I  don't 
think  it  was  very  good  quality  j  it  was  not  such  as  I  would  want  to  eat. 
The  tobacco  was  black  in  appearance,  and  of  a  very  poor  quality.  The 
sugar,  at  the  time  I  noticed  it,  had  a  sandy  appearance,  but  I  did  not 
taste  or  examine  it  very  closely.  In  appearance  it  was  not  as  good  as 
the  brown  sugar  that  is  issued  to  the  soldiers.  A  few  days  ago  I  noticed 
the  sugar  that  was  being  used,  and  it  was  of  a  better  quality  than  I  had 
seen  them  get  last  fall. 

Q.  How  does  the  sugar  that  you  saw  issued  the  other  day  compare 
with  what  is  now  being  issued  to  the  Army  ? 

A.  I  think  it  would  compare  very  favorably. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Lieutenant,  are  you  a  fair  judge  of  the  weight  of  beef  ? 
A.  No,  sir ;  1  know  nothing  about  it  at  all. 


TESTIMONY  OF  JULIAS  M.  GREEN. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  the  nature  of  your  employment  ? 

Answer.  Butcher ;  I  am  butcher  at  Camp  Robinson. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there'? 

A.  Since  the  8th  day  of  March,  1874. 

Q.  About  what  is  the  average  weight  of  cattle  received  at  the  post ! 

A.  My  beef  averaged  405  pounds  net  weight  last  year,  excluding  kid 
ney,  tallow,  shanks,  and  brisket. 

Q.  Are  those  Texas  cattle  that  you  get  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  most  all  of  them. 

Q.  Are  they  generally  steers  f 

A.  No,  sir;  cows. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  herds  of  cattle  that  were  issued  to  the  Indians 
here? 

A.  I  have  seen  a  great  many,  but  I  paid  no  particular  attention  to 
them. 

Q.  How  would  they  generally  compare  in  size  with  the  beef  you  used 
at  the  post  ? 

A.  Well,  I  could  not  very  well  say  ;  because  you  take  a  large  drove 
of  cattle  and  the  small  ones  are  crowded  on  the  outside,  and  a  man 
can't  form  his  opinion  unless  he  goes  through  them.  Most  of  the  cattle 
furnished  for  the  Indians  I  have  seen  were  steers  ;  there  were  but  few 
cows  among  them  ;  I  never  observed  any  yearlings  among  them. 


484 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Would,  in  your  judgment,  a  herd  of  cattle  composed  mostly  of 
steers  be  likely  to  weigh  more  than  a  herd  composed  mostly  of  cows  ? 

A.  Oh,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  or  have  you  not  any  opinion  to  express  as  to  whether 
the  cattle  furnished  to  the  Indian  agency  here,  take  them  ail  through, 
weigh  on  the  hoof  more  or  less  than  the  cattle  you  received  at  the  post  ? 

A.  I  think  they  weighed  a  little  more,  because  I  killed  a  good  many 
two-year-old  cows. 

Q.  "You  say  yours  weighed  four  hundred  and  five  pounds  net,  exclud- 
iugshanks,  tallow,  and  brisket.  What  do  you  mean  by  "  shanks  j"  all  be 
low  the  knee  f 

A.  All  below  four  inches  above  the  front  knee';  and  the  hind  shank  is 
cut  from  six  to  eight  inches  above  the  gamble-joint. 

Q.  In  a  fair-size  cow,  what  would  be  the  weight  of  the  rough  tallow 
on  the  kidney  I 

A.  Nor  more  than  ten  pounds. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  term  "brisket,"  as  you  use  it  ? 

A.  It  is  nothing  more  than  a  strip  taken  down  off  the  neck  ;  it  is  a 
piece  of  the  bloody  end  of  the  neck,  cut  off  at  the  fourth  joint. 

Q.  How  much  would  they  weigh,  generally  f 

A.  The  kidneys,  tallow,  shank,  and  neck  would  weigh  from  40  to  50 
pounds. 

Q.  So  that  if  they  were  left  on,  the  average  of  the  cattle  would  be 
from  40  to  50  pounds  higher  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  cattle  that  you  saw  for  the  agency,  what  was  their  quality 
as  beef f 

A.  I  got  some  very  good  beef  out  of  them. 

Q.  Then  you  have  exchanged  beef  sometimes  with  the  agent  when  he 
got  out  of  cattle  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  beef  you  got  by  exchange  was  good  beef? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  you  saw  the  herds  coming  to  the  agency,  how  did  they  com 
pare  as  merchantable  beeves  with  those  that  you  have  killed  ? 

A.  Last  winter  the  cattle  in  this  country,  the  Texas  cattle  fell  away  a 
great  deal ;  last  spring  they  got  thin.  I  only  saw  one  herd  here  that 
was  thin — that  was  last  spring;  the  rest  was  all  good. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  a  butcher  ? 

A.  I  have  been  around  butcher-shops  for  ten  years. 

Q.  Has  your  butchering  all  been  done  at  the  military  posts  I 

A.  No,  sir.  I  worked  two  years  at  Omaha,  and  also  in  Hamilton, 
Ohio. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  remember  an  occasion  when  eleven  cattle  were  killed  by  the 
Chyennes? 

A.  Yesa  sir. 

Q.  In  what  herd  were  they  killed? 

A.  In  the  post-herd  ;  they  were  taken  from  the  post-herd  and  dressed 
at  the  Cheyenne  camp.  Dr.  Saville  made  them  good  afterward,  and 
allowed  me  to  select  eleven  from  the  agency-herd.  I  selected  eleven  of 
the  fattest,  but  not  the  largest,  which  netted  450  pounds  each  without 
the  shanks,  tallow,  kidney,  or  brisket;  but  with  those  they  would  net 
about  500. 


485 

CAMP  ON  THE  NlOBRARA,  NEBRASKA, 
(THIRTY  MILES  BELOW  BED  CLOUD  AGENCY,) 

Saturday,  August  14,  1875. 

After  leaving  Red  Cloud  agency  the  commissioners  proceeded  to  a 
point  on  the  Niobrara  River  to  inspect  a  large  herd  of  cattle  owned  by 
J.  W.  Bosler,  and  intended  for  delivery  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted 
Tail  agencies  under  the  existing  contract.  The  commissioners  exam 
ined  the  herd,  which  numbered  5,500  head.  J.  W.  and  J.  H.  Bosler  ac 
companied  the  commissioners  to  the  camp,  where  George  M.  Bosler  was 
found  in  charge  of  the  herd. 

TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  M.  BOSLER. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Question.  Mr.  Bosler,  were  you  present  at  the  delivery  of  cattle  at 
Red  Cloud  agency,  November  14,  1874  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Professor  Marsh  at  or  about  that  time  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  the  Professor  at  the  delivery  of  the  cattle.  I  saw  him 
afterward  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  the  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  it  on  the  same  day  as  the  delivery  of  the  cattle  that  you  saw 
him  at  the  agency  ? 
A.  I  could  not  say. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  remark  to  you  or  in  your  hearing  as  to  the  con 
dition  of  the  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  the  only  person  named  Bosler  who  was  present  at  this 
delivery  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  statement,  on  page  25,  of  Professor 
Marsh's  pamphlet:  "The  cattle  of  this  herd  were  so  wretchedly  poor 
that  even  the  contractor.  Mr.  Bosler,  deemed  it  necessary  to  apologize 
for  them."  I  want  to  ask  you,  did  you,  to  any  person,  make  any  state 
ment  respecting  the  condition  of  the  cattle  in  the  nature  of  an  apology, 
or  explanation,  or  excuse  ? 

A.  Major  Burt  came  to  me  and  asked  me  what  made  the  cattle  look 
so  gaunt.  I  told  him  we  had  driven  the  cattle  in  a  storm  for  two  days 
and  one  night;  that  they  had  neither  grass  nor  water  during  that 
time. 

Q.  Was  that  statement  to  Major  Burt  a  correct  statement  of  the  fact 
in  the  case  I 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  merely  answering  the  question. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  was  in  other  respects  the  condition  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  They  were  good  cattle  out  of  a  herd  of  3,000  head  like  those  you 
have  seen  this  morning. 

Q.  Were  they  as  good  as  those  we  have  seen  this  morning  1 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  were  fatter  cattle,  only  we  had  driven  them  for  two 
days  and  a  night  in  a  storm,  and  of  course  snowing  all  the  time  as  it 


486 

was,  it  made  them  look  rough ;  they  had  DO  food  or  water  during  the 
time. 

Q.  How  far  had  you  driven  them  ? 

A.  I  had  started  them  from  about  five  miles  below  here,  where  we 
now  are  on  the  Niobrara;  that  is  about  thirty-five  miles  from  the 
agency. 

Q.  How  happened  you  to  be  so  long  driving  them  thirty  miles  ? 

A.  It  commenced  snowing  on  the  morning  we  started  driving  the  cat 
tle,  and  kept  snowing  all  that  day  and  all  that  night,  and  the  next  morn 
ing  we  got  lost,  and  did  not  get  in  to  the  agency  until  night. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  How  far  do  you  ordinarily  drive  cattle  in  a  day  1 
A.  From  fifteen  to  twenty-five  miles. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  say  they  could  not  get  water  during  that  time  ? 
A.  No,  sir ;  they  could  not. 
Q.  Were  the  streams  frozen  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Are  you  a  contractor  for  the  delivery  of  cattle  at  the  agency  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  interest  in  any  contract  for  that  purpose  ! 
A.  Noa  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  at  that  time  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  relation  to  the  contractor  ? 
A.  I  am  working  here  for  J.  W.  Bosler. 
Q.  I  mean  your  blood  relation  $  is  he  your  brother  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  the  care  of  the  cattle  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHEYENNE,  W.  T., 

Tuesday,  August  24,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 

GEORGE  M.  BOSLER  was  recalled. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  Mr.  Bosler,  were  you  in  charge  of  the  herd  of  cattle  in  1873  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  having  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Samuel  Walker 
at  any  time  ?  He  came  out  to  investigate  some  Indian  frauds. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  the  conversation  which  you  had  with  him  ? 

A.  At  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  have  more  than  one  conversation  ? 

A.  I  had  but  one  conversation  with  Mr.  Walker. 

Q.  Please  give,  in  your  own  way,  the  substance  of  the  conversation, 
as  near  as  you  can  recollect. 


487 

A.  Mr.  Walker  was  present  at  the  delivery  of  cattle.  The  first  even 
ing-  1  came  with  the  cattle  myself.  I  don't  remember  the  d'ate,  but  if  I 
recollect,  it  was  in  October.  We  went  down,  and  the  cattle  were  turned 
over,  weighed,  and  delivered.  Mr.  Walker  asked  me  whether  those  were 
such  cattle  as  I  had  been  delivering.  I  told  him  that  our  cattle  were 
all  in  the  country,  and  that  he  could  go  down  and  judge  for  himself, 
and  I  would  be  very  glad  to  take  him  down  when  he  wished  to  go. 

Q.  Where  were  the  cattle? 

A.  Part  of  them  were  on  Running  Water,  where  our  men  were,  and 
part  of  them  were  on  the  Platte.  Well,  he  said  he  could  not  go,  as  he 
had -no  time,  or  something  to  that  effect.  I  don't  remember  his  remark. 
That  is  all  that  I  recollect  now.  He  did  not  go  to  see  the  cattle. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  he  object  to  the  cattle,  or  say  they  were  not  good  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  heard  him  make  no  remark  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  the  herd  after  you  saw  him  for  the  purpose  of  as 
certaining"  the  number  of  cattle  which  had  been  receipted  for? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  not  come  back  and  state  to  him,  after  being  at  the  herd, 
the  number  of  cattle  which  had  been  receipted  for^ 

A.  Mr.  W^alker  asked  me  whether  I  knew  how  many  cattle  were  not 
receipted  for.  I  told  him  I  did  not  know,  as  I  did  not  take  up  any  receipts 
myself.  I  took  a  memorandum-receipt  when  I  delivered  the  cattle. 

Q.  Did  you  return  to  the  agency  after  he  left,  and  say  that  tire  Govern 
ment  owed  your  brother  for  798,  and  maybe  more  ? 

A.  I  told  him  that  I  knew  which  were  not  receipted  for  at  the  last 
delivery,  but  I  could  not  give  him  the  exact  number,  as  I  did  not  take  a 
receipt  for  them. 

Q.  The  question  between  you,  then,  was  not  how  many  cattle  were 
receipted  for,  but  how  many  were  not  receipted  for  u? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  asking  you  this  question? 

A.  He  asked  me  how  many  cattle  were  not  receipted  for.  I  handed 
him  the  memorandum-receipt,  which,  I  think,  stated  the  amount  stated 
there  in  his  report,  798.  This  I  told  him  was  all  I  knew,  as  1  gave  the 
memorandum-receipt  to  my  brother  when  he  came  along.  I  mean  the 
memorandum-receipt  which  I  receive  from  the  agent  when  I  turn  over 
the  cattle  to  him.  I  mean  by  not  receipted  for,  cattle  which  I  take  to 
the  agency  and  only  take  a  memorandum-receipt  from  the  agent  for. 

Q.  What  do  yon  do  with  the  memorandum-receipt  which  you  take  at 
the  time  the  cattle  are  delivered  u? 

A.  I  turn  that  over  to  my  brother,  and  upon  that  he  obtains  the 
voucher  from  the  agent. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  conversation  between  Mr.  Walker  and  the  agent 
or  Mr.  Appleton,  the  agent's  clerk,  as  to  whether  there  was  any  account 
kept  at  the  agency  of  the  cattle  kept  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  say  to  Mr.  Walker  at  any  time  that  receipts  were  written 
by  your  brother  for  the  agent's  signature  '? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  recollect  of  Mr.  Walker  asking  me  that  question. 
I  have  never  said  to  Mr.  Walker  that  my  brother  made  out  receipts  for 
Doctor  Saville's  signature,  and  I  have  so  stated  in  a  former  examination. 
Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  stampede  of  cattle  which  occurred 
in  October,  1873,  when  the  stampeded  cattle  were  driven  back  to  your 
herd — when  some  five  or  six  hundred  cattle  were  stampeded  ? 


488 

A.  I  don't  remember  but  one  stampede,  and  that  took  place  last  fall. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  that  the  agent  lost  a  large  number  of  cattle  which 
were  afterward  turned  into  the  herd  as  the.y  were  gathered  up"? 

A.  I  remember  the  circumstance,  but  not  the  number  of  cattle.  That 
was  last  fall  a  year  ago. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  they  wrere  turned  into  your  herd  ! 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  know  that  the  agent's  men  brought  some  cattle  back 
there,  and  my  men  received  them.  I  was  not  there.  I  don't  know  how 
many  were  put  in  the  herd. 

Q.  Do  you  know  personally  of  those  cattle  being  turned  back  to  the 
agent  "? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  do.  I  was  ordered  to  return  the  cattle  that  the  agent 
had  turned  back  into  my  herd.  An  equal  number  was  given  him,  as  it 
would  be  a  very  hard  matter  to  turn  back  the  same  cattle. 

Q.  Did  you  keep  a  record  of  the  number  of  cattle  received? 

A.  My  man  who  was  in  charge  of  the  camp  kept  an  account  of  the  num 
ber.  It  was  either  Porter  or  Koudon.  They  are  not  now  in  my  employ. 
1  don't  know  where  they  now  are.  They  did  not  give  me  any  account 
of  the  numbers.  My  brother,  J.  H.  Bosler,  was  at  the  agency  at  the 
time. 

Q.  Personally  you  don't  know  that  any  cattle  were  ever  turned  over 
to  the  agent  to  make  up  for  the  cattle  which  were  turned  into  your 
herd  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do.  I  know  that  at  the  next  delivery  an  equal  number 
of  cattle  were  taken  off  to  make  up  the  number,  but  I  was  not  present, 
and  know  it  only  from  my  account.  I  keep  a  record  of  the  number  of 
cattle  I  have  in  my  herd,  and  when  I  deliver  some  cattle  I  take  that 
from  the  whole  number,  which  leaves  so  many  in  my  herd ;  and  if  the 
agent  turned  over  any  cattle  to  my  herd,  I  would  know  it  by  the  whole 
number.  And  when  I  came  up,  my  brother  gave  me  the  account  of  the 
number  of  cattle  which  had  been  delivered  to  the  agent,  and  he  gave 
me  the  numbers  less  the  amount  of  those  stampeded  cattle.  I  don't  re 
member  the  number.  I  could  not  say  whether  it  was  three,  four,  or  five 
hundred.  I  could  not  say  how  many.  I  have  no  book  with  me  that 
would  enable  me  to  be  accurate  on  that  subject. 

Q.  Did  you  testify  fully  on  this  subject  before  ? 

A.  Some  of  these  questions  were  put  to  me.  I  did  not  then  give  any 
statement  from  my  book.  I  have  not  examined  my  book  since  that 
time.  I  don't  keep  any  regular  books,  only  an  account  of  the  cattle  I 
have  in  my  herd,  and  at  every  delivery  I  know  how  many  I  have  left,  or 
should  have. 

Q.  Did  you  add  to  them  the  number  of  cattle  which  returned  to  your 
herd  from  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  did  not  do  it.  My  brother  did  it.  I  was  not  present  when  the 
cattle  were  turned  back.  I  was  not  present  when  the  cattle  were  turned 
into  the  herd.  My  brother,  J.  H.  Bosler,  was.  1  don't  know  that  he 
was  at  the  herd,  but  he  was  in  the  country.  I  don't  know  whether  the 
herder  gave  him  any  account  for  the  cattle  which  were  returned  to  the 
herd. 

By  Mr.  A'TIIERTON  : 

Q.  Is  this  book  which  you  speak  of  in  such  shape  as  you  can  show  it 
now  ? 

A.  I  don't  keep  any  book  myself.  I  know  how  many  cattle  I  have  in 
my  herd,  and  all  I  take  when  I  deliver  any  cattle  is  a  memorandum  re 
ceipt,  and  when  my  brother  comes  along  I  turn  it  over  to  him.  All  the 


489 

accounts  are  turned  over  to  J.  W.  Bosler.     All  I  have  to  do  in  this 
business  is  to  take  charge  of  the  cattle  and  deliver  them  to  the  agent. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  to  have  six  thousand  given  you  to-day  to  keep 
as  a  herder,  would  you  charge  yourself  on  any  book  with  such  cattle  '! 

A.  No,  sir.  Every  rnan  I  have  in  my  employ  is  supposed  to  know 
how  many  cattle  he  has  in  his  herd,  and  keeps  account  of  them.  If  1 
have  five  thousand  cattle  in  my  herd,  after  I  deliver  one  thousand,  I 
have  four  thousand  left.  I  do  it  from  memory. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  claim  that  yourself,  or  J.  H.  Bosler,  or  J.  W.  Bos 
ler,  or  any  of  your  herders  have  kept  any  account,  in  writing,  of  those 
cattle  which  were  turned  over  to  you  by  Agent  Saville  ? 

A.  J.  H.  Bosler  did.  No  one  else  had  any  account.  If  I  had  been 
there  myself,  1  would  have  kept  a  memorandum  of  that  occurrence. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Don't  you  keep  a  memorandum  of  the  number  of  cattle  you  have 
in  your  herd  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  is  a  very  easy  matter.  If  I  had  twenty  thousand  cat 
tle  in  my  herd,  it  is  a  very  easy  matter  to  recollect  it ;  and,  of  course, 
my  men  know  how  many  cattle  there  are  there.  My  brother  buys  all 
the  cattle,  and  turns  them  over  to  me. 

Q,  If  your  brother  would  buy  five  thousand  cattle  and  turn  them  over 
to  you.  he  makes  a  memorandum  that  he  has  turned  over  that  number 
to  you,  does  he  not1? 

A.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  turnover  to  the  agency  one  thousand  cattle,  you  take 
a  memorandum-receipt  for  those  cattle,  and  turn  it  over  to  your 
brother  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  for  that  your  brother  credits  you  ^with  that  number  of  cat 
tle? 

A.  I  presume  so.  I  deliver  cattle  as  long  as  I  have  any,  always  de 
ducting  the  number  delivered,  to  determine  the  number  left  in  the  herd  ; 
and  as  this  is  all  I  have  to  do  about  it,  it  is  an  easy  matter  to  recollect 
how  many  are  left. 


SPOTTED  TAIL  AGENCY,  NEBRASKA, 

Monday,  August  16,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W,  ATHERTON. 

EXAMINATION  OF  SUPPLIES. 

The  commissioners,  in  company  with  the  agent,  Major  E.  A.  Howard 
and  his  clerk,  E.  D.  McEvena,  visited  the  store-houses  at  the  agency, 
and  examined  the  supplies  on  hand.  One  of  the  barrels  of  pork,  marked 
on  one  end  "  Booge,  Ware  &  Co.,  packers,  mess-pork,  Sioux  City,  Iowa, 
200  pounds,"  and  on  the  other  end,  "  T.  S.  Clarkson,  inspector,"  was 
opened,  every  piece  of  pork  taken  out  and  examined,  and  the  whole  con 
tents  of  the  barrel  pronounced  by  the  commissioners  to  be  "good,  nice, 
sweet  pork." 


490 

A  sack  of  flour  was  then  opened  and  examined.  The  agent  said : 
"  This  flour  is  some  of  the  same  that  you  have  been  eating  here.  It  was 
received  on  the  31st  July,  1875,  (last  month,)  and  is  the  balance  of  the 
contract-supply  for  last  year.  There  has  been  no  complaint  from  the 
Indians  of  the  quality  of  the  flour.  The  flour  we  are  now  using  is  of  the 
same  general  character  that  we  have  had  during  the  whole  of  last  year. 
The  name  of  the  contractor  for  furnishing  the  flour  is  J.  L.  Merriam, 
Saint  Paul ;  the  contractors  for  transportation  overland  from  Fort  lian- 
dall  are  Pratt  &  Ferris." 

A  sack  containing  three  pieces  or  sides  of  bacon  was  opened,  one  of 
the  pieces  was  cut,  and  pronounced  to  be  "  good  bacon." 

A  sack  of  corn  of  last  year's  supply  was  opened  and  examined,  and 
found  to  be  "  of  excellent  quality  and  in  good  condition.'7 

The  commissioners  then  examined  the  sugar  and  coffee,  both  articles 
being  of  this  year's  supply.  In  this  connection  the  agent  said:  4'The 
coffee  of  last  year  was  not  quite  so  good  as  this.  The  sugar  is  about  the 
same  quality  as  that  of  last  year.  There  has  been  no  complaint  about 
the  sugar."  * 

The  commissioners  then  adjourned  to  the  office  and  proceeded  to 
examine  witnesses. 


TESTIMONY  OF  E.  WILLAED. 

I  have  been  clerk  at  the  agency  here  until  the  last  of  June,  1875. 
Mr.  McEvena  has  taken  my  place.  The  following  is  a  transcript  from 
the  records  of  receipts  of  beef  at  this  agency  from  June  21,  1873,  to  June 
30,  1875 : 

Beef -cattle  received  at  Spotted  Tail  agency. 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Gross  weight 
in  pounds. 

J873. 
June  21  ..      ..          

535 

440,  305 

July  12                                                  .                

322 

303,  324 

July  23                                                                                          

725 

759,  800 

444 

467,  088 

460 

483,  000 

530 

532,  650 

October  15                                                                                      

1  ,  056 

1,105,632 

655 

622,  250 

355 

324,  835 

1874. 
January  20     .  .  .         .                   

401 

377,  092 

IVbruary  4                                                  .                      

198 

189,878 

February  13                                                                                       ... 

251 

254,  207 

March  18 

270 

277,  749 

April  24   .                             

528 

487,  344 

May  19       ...                                                                   

4JO 

394,  972 

June  9  

102 

108,  864 

(All  the  above  are  on  the  contract  for  the  fiscal  year  beginning  July 
1,  1873,  and  ending  June  30, 1874.) 


491 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Gross  weight 
in  pounds. 

1874. 
Tnlv  2 

560 

578,  480 

401 

438,  126 

401 

424,152 

572 

584,012 

October  3  .  .   ...            

823 

'    862,504 

597 

610,134 

497 

477,  120 

1875. 

447 

433,  590 

803 

811,833 

March  6                     

575 

595,  800 

April  5                                         .          ............................. 

558 

550,  746 

April  26  

497 

487,  060 

May  23                              

386 

349,  330 

199 

180,294 

376 

372,  240 

June  20                    

528 

518,021 

juue  28                                                                                          

529 

518,  102 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question,  I  notice  the  weights  are  lessfrora  December  to  April ;  that  is, 
they  will  average  less  than  at  other  seasons  of  the  year ;  what  is  the  reason 
of  that  ?  Is  it  a  fact  that  the  cattle  will  weigh  less  from  December  to 
April  than  from  April  to  December  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  I  have  noticed  it ;  I  judge  that  to  be  the  fact. 

Q.  Take  the  cattle  that  are  delivered  to  you  in  February,  March,  and 
April ;  what  has  been  their  condition  ? 

A.  They  are  rather  poor,  quite  a  number  of  them,  compared  with 
what  they  are  in  the  summer  and  fall. 

Q.  Have  you  weighed  any  of  these  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  all  the  weights  which  are  borne  on  your  book  are 
correct  weights  ? 

A.  So  far  as  1  weighed  them,  the  weights  are  correctly  stated  on  the 
book. 

Q.  Have  you  noticed  yearliugs,  calves,  and  "  scalawag  "  cattle  among 
the  cattle  received  here ? 

A.  There  are  very  few  yearlings,  sometimes  one,  two,  or  three,  in  a 
delivery,  but  they  have  not  been  counted  ;  we  allowed  for  their  weight 
when  they  went  over  the  scales:  we  made  some  allowance  for  their  sup 
posed  weight. 

Q.  How  much  allowance  for  yearlings  and  calves  ? 

A.  I  hardly  know ;  we  killed  them  and  issued  them  to  the  whites 
and  half-breeds  OD  the  block. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  deliveries  of  cattle  during  July  and  August  of 
this  year  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  cattle  I 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  of  the  beef  that  has  generally  been  delivered 
here,  as  to  its  character  and  quality  '? 

A.  It  has  been  very  good. 


492 

By  Mr.  ATHERTOX  : 

Q.  Has  it  been  such  as  you  have  used  iu  the  white  families  here  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir  j  no  other  beef  comes  here. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  keep  an  account  of  the   receipt  and  the  distribution  of 
annuity  goods  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  show  us  just  how  that  is  done  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  [referring  to  the  book  :]  There  were  fourteen  bales  of 
blue  3-point  blankets  received  and  distributed,  eight  bales  to  Spotted 
Tail,  five  bales  to  the  Corn  and  Loafer  band,  one  bale  opened  and  distrib 
uted  at  the  warehouse  to  the  whites  and  half-breeds;  ten  bales  of  blue 
2J-points,  six  bales  to  Spotted  TaiPs  band,  three  bales  to  the  Corn  and 
Loafer  band,  one  bale  to  the  whites  and  half-breeds  ;  ten  bales  of  blue 
2  points,  six  to  Spotted  Tail,  three  to  the  Corn  and  Loafer  band,  one  to 
the  whites  and  half-breeds ;  fourteen  bales  of  green  3-points,  eight  to 
Spotted  Tail,  five  to  the  Corn  and  Loafer  band,  one  opened  at  the  ware 
house  ;  ten  bales  of  green  2^-points,  six  to  Spotted  Tail,  three  to  the 
Corn  and  Loafer  band,  one  opened  at  the  warehouse  ;  ten  bales  of  green 
2-poiuts,  six  to  Spotted  Tail,  three  to  the  Corn  and  Loafer  band,  one 
opened  at  the  warehouse.  All  other  annuity  goods  were  distributed  in 
the  same  proportion,  and  in  all  cases  where  it  could  be  done  the  goods 
were  distributed  to  the  chiefs  in  the  unopened  packages.  There  has 
never  been  complaint  that  the  goods  fell  short  of  the  invoice  quantity. 
I  have  been  told  that  the  brand  on  the  blankets  injured  them,  but  have 
seen  no  instance.  The  Indians  prefer  and  insist  upon  the  distribution 
in  this  form.  I  have  no  knowledge  that  any  trader,  at  this  agency,  is  in 
any  way  connected  with  the  agent  in  the  way  of  business,  or  that  the 
agent  in  any  wray,  directly  or  indirectly,  derives  profit  from  the  business 
of  the  trader.  I  have  no  information  or  belief  that  the  agent  has  any 
interest  in  any  contract  or  business  connected  with  the  agency.  Our 
estimates  of  the  number  of  the  Indians  is  based  upon  a  census  actually 
taken.  We  have,  on  the  average,  about  8,000  Indians  here  to  feed. 
Year  before  last  about  800  lodges  of  northern  Indians,  seven  to  a  lodge, 
came  in,  but  no  more  than  500  to  600  lodges  at  one  time.  Last  year 
about  as  many  came  in. 


TESTIMONY  OF  MAJOR  E.  A.  HOWARD. 

Our  beef-cattle  on  being  received  are  herded,  and  on  each  issue-day 
we  make  a  list  of  those  who  are  to  draw,  with  the  amount  for  each. 
That  list  is  taken  by  the  clerk  and  interpreter  to  the  corral.  The  inter 
preter  calls  the  names  with  the  number  to  be  issued,  and  the  chief  herder 
cuts  them  out  and  delivers  them  to  the  person  entitled  to  them,  who 
then  drives  them  away.  The  whole  number  issued  is  then  entered  on  the 
book.  There  have  been  several  stampedes  of  cattle  since  I  have  been 
here,  but  only  three,  as  I  remember,  when  any  wTere  lost.  In  these  cases 
we  have  the  affidavits  of  the  numbers  on  file,  showing  all  the  circum 
stances.  Lately  I  have  instructed  the  herders  that  they  should  be  held 
responsible  for  losses  of  this  kind.  I  have  never  known  a  single  herd 
of  cattle  to  get  back  to  the  contractor's  herd.  We  have  recently  an 
order  from  the  Department  directing  us  to  put  our  brand  on  every  herd 
of  cattle.  It  is  impossible  for  us  to  comply  with  the  order  now,  as  our 
corral  has  been  lately  set  on  fire  and  destroyed.  But  we  shall  have 


493 

the  corral  rebuilt  as  early  as  possible,  and  shall  then  comply  strictly 
with  the  order.  I  have  no  interest,  direct  or  indirect,  expressed 
or  implied,  in  the  profits  of  any  contract  for  providing  goods  or  sup 
plies  to  this  agency,  or  in  the  business  of  any  trader.  I  have  never 
received,  nor  do  I  expect  to  receive,  any  compensation  for  the  appoint 
ment  of  a  trader  at  the  agency.  The  cattle  received  here  have  always 
been  of  a  fair  average  quality.  One  or  two  lots  in  the  dead  of  winter 
have  contained  a  few  poor  animals.  The  weights  entered  on  the 
book  I  know  to  be  correct,  as  I  have  generally  weighed  them  myself. 
In  one  instance  I  objected  to  a  very  few  cattle  that  were  sent  here 
by  the  contractor,  but  was  obliged  to  receive  them,  as  we  had  no 
meat  and  there  had  been  considerable  delay  in  getting  them  here,  on 
account  of  severe  winter-storms.  I  notified  the  contractor,  however,  that 
I  would  receive  no  more  of  that  kind.  I  deemed  it  no  more  than  fair  to 
him  to  receive  that  lot,  considering  the  difficulty  he  had  experienced  in 
getting  them  here.  There  was  a  period  of  thirty  or  forty  days  last  win 
ter  when  we  were  short  of  rations.  Teams  left  here  in  December  for  Fort 
Randall  to  bring  supplies,  and  did  not  get  back  until  the  following 
April.  But  during  that  period  I  know  of  no  instance  of  serious  suffer 
ing  for  want  of  food.  We  always  had  on  hand  flour,  or  corn,  and  beef. 
There  was  some  complaint  of  the  shortness  of  supplies.  On  account  of 
the  lateness  of  the  appropriation  by  Congress,  the  supplies  were  received 
much  later  than  usual.  The  annuity-goods  did  not  reach  here  until 
December.  It  requires  about  fifteen  days  with  a  mule-train  and  about 
twenty-five  days  with  an  ox-train  to  bring  supplies  from  Fort  Randall. 
The  coloring- matter  used  in  stamping  the  blankets  did  injure  tnem,  as 
I  saw  in  many  instances.  The  supplies  of  food  provided  are  not  suffi 
cient  for  the  reasonable  wants  of  the  Indians.  As  the  game  diminishes, 
the  demand  for  food  increases.  There  is  need  of  a  larger  supply  of  cof 
fee  and  sugar,  and  a  greater  variety  of  food.  We  especially  need  rice 
and  dried  apples.  The  Indians  are  very  fond  of  these  articles,  and 
understand  how  to  cook  them.  It  would  be  economy  to  issue  soda  in 
stead  of  baking-powders.  The  Indians  ought  to  have  full  soldiers' 
rations  with  an  additional  half  pound  of  beef.  They  require  much  more 
food  than  the  whites.  All  my  Indians  are  very  loyal.  I  do  not  believe 
they  could  (with  very  few  exceptions)  be  driven  into  hostility.  They 
regard  the  President  as  their  best  friend.  It  would  be  good  economy, 
and  an  important  step  toward  locating  and  civilizing  the  Indians,  to  fur 
nish  them  with  houses  as  far  they  will  occupy  them.  Many  of  them 
would  do  so  at  once — probably  one-half  of  all  connected  with  this  agency. 
It  is  my  opinion  that  all  who  would  occupy  houses  should  receive  suits 
of  clothes  instead  of  blankets.  My  relations  with  the  military  are  ex 
ceedingly  friendly  and  pleasant.  We  have  never  had  any  clashing. 
The  Indian  females  are,  as  a  community,  the  most  virtuous  I  have  ever 
seen.  The  Indians  here  are  very  desirous  to  obtain  the  means  of  educa 
tion  for  their  children.  A  school  will  be  opened  about  the  middle  of 
September,  and  we  anticipate  an  attendance  of  about  fifty  scholars  to 
begin  with.  This  number  will  vary,  but  we  shall  probably  have  an  aver 
age  attendance  of  sixty  scholars  the  year  round. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  A.  C.  PAUL. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Question.  What  is  your  rank  I 

Answer.  First  lieutenant  of  the  Third  Cavalry,  stationed  at   Camp 
Sheridan,  near  this  agency. 


494 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  stationed  at  this  post  ? 

A.  I  have  been  here  only  since  last  April. 

Q.  Before  that  where  were  you  stationed  ? 

A.  At  North  Platte,  on  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  only  passed  through  coming  here.  I  passed  through  there  last 
June;  I  had  a  detachment  of  recruits  along,  and  some  horses. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Agent  Saville J? 

A.  Only  from  introduction  ;  I  met  him  on  the  train. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  herd  of  beef-cattle  that  were  issued  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  saw  a  number  of  head  there  as  I  passed  through,  but  did  not 
know  who  they  belonged  to;  in  fact,  1  paid  no  attention  to  them  at  all. 

Q.  Could  you  say  anything  as  to  the  particular  kind  of  cattle? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not.  If  my  attention  had  been  called  to  them,  I 
might  have  stopped  to  look  at  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  character  of  the  supplies  issued  last 
fall  and  winter  and  last  spring  at  Red  Cloud  or  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  only  from  rumors;  nothing  from  my  own  knowledge.  We 
have  been  completing  the  new  post  here,  and  we  have  not  had  much 
opportunity  to  look  into  those  matters. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  suffering  of  any  of  the  Indians 
last  winter  ? 

A.  When  I  came  here  it  was  the  general  opinion  that  the  Indians 
were  starving,  and  had  to  kill  their  ponies.  It  was  the  prevailing  opin 
ion  among  the  officers  stationed  here ;  but  I  don't  know  anything 
about  it  of  my  own  knowledge.  The  first  day  we  arrived  here,  that  was 
one  of  the  first  things  that  was  told  us. 

Q.  That  referred  to  Indians  who  got  their  supplies  at  this  agency  t 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  what  I  understood. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  come  round  the  military  post  begging  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  will  do  that  anyhow.  If  the  agent  issued  them 
half  a  dozen  sacks  of  flour,  they  would  still  come  and  beg.  They  are 
natural  beggars. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  mismanagement  or  incompeteucy  on  the 
part  of  either  the  agent  at  Red  Cloud  or  at  this  agency? 

A.  Not  from  my  own  personal  knowledge ;  all  I  know  is  merely  from 
hearsay. 

Q.  Do  you  know  or  have  you  heard  of  any  frauds  being  perpetrated 
upon  the  Indians  or  upon  the  Government  by  those  agents  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  own  personal  knowledge.  If  I  had,  I  would  have  reported 
it. 

Q.  Then  you  have  never  had  any  information  on  that  subject  in  such 
an  authentic  shape  as  to  make  you  feel  justified  in  reporting  it '? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not.  I  have  been  at  the  agency  very  little.  This 
is  the  first  time  I  have  been  inside  this  agency  buildings.  I  have  noticed 
the  beef-cattle.  They  did  not  look  to  me  to  be  very  fat;  but  as  to  sus 
pecting  anything  wrong,  I  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  it.  They  might 
have  been  fair  cattle  and  have  come  up  to  the  standard;  but  I  did  not  pay 
enough  attention  to  give  information  that  would  be  of  any  benefit.  I 
think  that  Colonel  Mills,  who  has  been  here  a  great  deal  more  than  I 
have,  would  be  better  able  to  give  you  information  than  I  would.  I  have 


495 

never  called  on  Major  Howard,  the  agent.  I  have  only  met  him  two  or 
three  times  since  I  met  him  here;  but  I  have  heard  lots  of  people  talk, 
and  I  never  paid  any  attention  to  what  they  said. 

Q.  Are  the  class  of  white  men  who  are  round  about  these  agencies, 
or  any  in  the  employment  of  the  agency,  generally  a  very  reliable  class 
©f  men  ? 

A.  I  am  inclined  to  think  you  could  not  trust  them  very  far.  I  would 
not  place  much  confidence  in  what  they  said,  unless  they 'could  substan 
tiate  it  with  proof.  I  mean  the  squaw-men  and  half-breeds. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  read  Professor  Marsh's  charges? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  sent  me  his  pamphlet,  and  I  have  read  it  very  care 
fully. 

Q.  Are  there  any  of  those  charges,  or  any  one  of  them,  about  which 
you  can  give  us  any  information  that  would  go  to  substantiate  them  ? 

A.  Not  from  my  own  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  persons  who  would  probably  be 
able  to  give  us  information  about  that  ? 

A.  I  think  I  can,  provided  my  name  is  not  mentioned  in  the  matter. 


TESTIMONY  OF  COL.  ANSON  MILLS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  and  position  here  ? 

Answer.  Captain  of  the  Third  Cavalry,  temporarily  commanding 
Camp  Sheridan. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here  ? 

A.  I  came  here  last  April. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  here  before  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  in  this  immediate  vicinity.  This  camp  was  only 
located  last  September,  nearly  a  year  ago. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  to  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  1  never  was  there.  I  came  through  from  the  Union  Pa 
cific  Eailroad,  on  the  North  Platte,  direct,  without  going  to  Red  Cloud. 
I  came  directly  across  the  country. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  read  Professor  Marsh's  charges  in  reference  to  the 
management  of  the  Indian  agencies  out  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  Professor  and  I  are  pretty  well  acquainted.  We 
were  together  one  summer  on  his  bone-expedition,  and  I  read  in  the 
general  newspapers  extracts  from  his  charges;  and  he  sent  me  copies  of 
the  New  York  Tribune,  and  also  a  pamphlet  which  he  has  published,  all 
of  which  I  have  read. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  give  us  any  information  in  reference  to  any  of  those 
charges  which  would  go  to  substantiate  them  I 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  of  my  own  knowledge.  I  am  not  supposed  to  know 
anything  that  is  going  on  in  the  Indian  Department;  it  is  not  my  busi 
ness  to  inquire  into  it,  and  I  suppose  I  know  as  little  of  the  business  of 
the  Indian  agency  here  as  Major  Howard  does  of  the  post.  I  have 
found  him  a  very  affable,  agreeable  gentleman,  and  our  relations  are 
agreeable  in  every  respect,  and  I  know  nothing,  so  far  as  he  is  con 
cerned,  (and  of  course  not  of  the  other  agencies,  because  I  have  not 
been  there,)  to  go  to  substantiate  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  sufferings  of  the  Indians  last 
winter! 


496 

A.  Yes,  sir.  When  I  came  here  in  April  the  winter  was  tolerably  well 
past,  but  the  Indians  were  destitute,  and  came  to  me  with  constant 
complaints,  and  said  that  they  were  suffering;  and  it  was  very  evident 
that  they  had  been  suffering ;  but  whose  fault  it  was  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  observed  the  herds  of  beef-cattle  turned  over  to  the 
agency  for  issue  to  the  Indians"? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  I  have.  I  have  seen  cattle  that  the  Indians 
were  killing.  They  received  them,  and  they  were  driven  out,  and  the 
Indians  shot  them  ;  that  is  all  I  have  seen. 

Q.  Could  you  say  anything  in  reference  to  the  quality,  the  general 
quality,  of  the  cattle  that  have  been  issued  to  them  here! 

A.  Those  that  I  have  seen,  I  think,  are  generally  such  cattle  as  we 
would  not  receive  in  the  Army — Texas  cattle,  pretty  rough  ;  and  at  the 
time  I  noticed  them,  some  months  ago,  they  were  necessarily  poor, 
having  been  driven  here  some  distance.  They  wrere  not  such  as  we 
would  have  received  for  Army  issues. 

Q.  Have  you  sufficient  experience  in  the  matter  to  be  able  to  tell 
anything  about  the  probable  average  weight  of  the  cattle  that  have  been 
turned  over  here  ? 

A.  Well,  no  ;  I  say  I  only  saw  a  few,  and  I  did  not  pay  much  atten 
tion  to  those.  They  seemed  to  be  thin.  They  were  below  middle  class, 
I  should  judge.  Still  I  may  have  seen  the  poorest,  or  I  may  have  seen 
the  best, 

Q.  You  could  not  tell  how  those  you  did  see  would  average  with  the 
herd '? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  cattle  that  you  receive  at  the  post  for 
the  use  of  the  Army  are  the  same  class  of  cattle — Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  They  are  not  the  same  class.  They  may  be  Texas  cattle  some 
times,  but  the  beef  we  receive  is  pretty  fair  beef.  If  it  is  not,  we  do  not 
receive  it.  We  have  rejected  some  since  we  have  been  here.  Shortly 
after  I  came  here  the  contractor  was  attempting  to  furnish  some  that 
did  not  come  up  to  the  standard,  and  I  ordered  the  commissary  to  pur 
chase  some  in  open  market,  and  he  was  about  to  do  so  when  the  con 
tractor  discovered  that  he  could  do  better.  He  got  a  new  herd,  and 
furnished  beef  that  was  very  fair.  The  contractor  for  the  Army  and 
the  contractor  for  the  Indians  not  the  same  person. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Having  had  such  opportunity  to  observe  the  Indian  population 
about  here,  have  you  formed  any  opinion  whether  they  are  adapting 
themselves  to  the  habits  of  our  people  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  they  are  manifesting  quite  a  disposition  to  acquire 
our  habits ;  they  seem  to  take  pride  in  it.  They  have  planted  some 
gardens,  and  they  are  doing  very  well ;  they  seem  to  realize  that  they 
have  to  do  it.  When  they  first  came  here  they  were  in  great  distress  ; 
they  are  just  like  other  people ;  they  come  to  me  with  tales  on  the  In 
dian  agents,  and  I  suppose  they  go  to  the  Indian  agents  with  tales 
against  us.  They  want  sympathy.  I  believe  the  majority  of  the  older 
people  among  them  want  to  adapt  themselves  to  the  habits  of  the  whites, 
but  the  younger  ones  do  not.  I  will  relate  a  circumstance  :  About  the 
time  the  Indians  went  to  Washington  they  had  their  annual  "  sun- 
dance,"  half-way  between  here  and  Ked  Cloud  agency.  On  such  an  oc 
casion  all  the  Sioux  Nation  is  supposed  to  meet  and  have  a  famous  dance, 
and  they  revive  their  old  traditions  and  customs.  At  that  dance,  their 
chiefs  being  absent,  a  war-party  was  organized,  composed  of  the  young 


497 

men  of  all  the  different  nations.  The  Ogallallas,  the  Ernies,  the  Minne- 
conjous  came  down  from  the  north.  There  were  probably  six  or  eight 
hundred  warriors.  Their  ostensible  purpose  was  to  go  against  the 
Pawnees,  the  Poucas,  and  the  Oinahas,  but  I  have  no  doubt  they  in 
tended  to  pick  up  any  straggling  white  men  they  could  find  in  the  settle 
ments.  They  proceeded  on  their  way  as  far  as  the  Niobrara,  thirty 
miles  south  of  here,  before  anybody  here  was  aware  of  it.  The  chief's 
then  came  in  from  Washington.  When  Spotted  Tail  heard  of  it  he  was 
very  angry,  and  sent  a  message  for  those  belonging  to  his  band  in  the 
party  to  return.  This  I  am  relating  mostly  from  hearsay,  but  I  know 
the  principal  facts  to  be  true,  as  you  will  learn  by  the  result.  They  sent 
him  a  defiant  answer  that  they  would  not  return,  and  he  then  sent  so.ne 
of  his  soldiers  with  a  pipe,  which  meant  to  say,  if  they  did  not  return, 
he  would  compel  them  to.  On  the  receipt  of  the  pipe  a  great  portion  of 
his  men  returned,  but  the  remaining  portion  went  on.  The  military  here 
knew  nothing  about  it,  (it  was  either  accidentally  or  intentionally  kept 
from  them,)  and  the  first  we  knew  of  it  was  a  telegram  from  General  Crook, 
stating  that  a  war-party  had  appeared  near  the  Pawnee  reservation, 
dressed  as  Sioux  Indians,  and  directing  us  to  send  out  scouts  to  intercept 
them  and  punish  them.  A  detachment  was  sent  out  from  Red  Cloud, 
and  1  sent  out  a  party  from  here ;  and  I  forwarded  the  dispatch  by  cou 
rier  to  Captain  McDougall,  of  the  Seventh  Cavalry,  who  was  encamped 
about  one  hundred  miles  east  of  us,  on  White  Eiver.  We  used  the  best 
endeavors  to  find  them,  but  unfortunately  they  came  too  far  north,  and 
only  Captain  McDougalPs  party  discovered  them.  He  had  himself  given, 
up  the  chase,  but  very  unexpectedly  came  across  them  one  evening, 
and  killed  one  of  them  and  captured  fifteen  ponies.  He  would  have  pun 
ished  them  very  severely,  but  they  had  picked  up  a  white  man — a  strag 
gling  miner — who  was  hungry  and  sore-footed,  and  they  gave  him  a 
horse  and  something  to  eat,  and  were  bringing  him  in.  That  moved  the 
captain  to  deal  gently  with  them  and  let  them  alone.  They  protested 
that  they  had  not  done  white  men  any  harm  ;  that  they  were  after  the 
Poncas.  There  were  about  five  hundred  of  them  came  in  here,  and  they 
were  bent  on  organizing  another  party  to  go  back  and  whip  the  soldiers 
of  McDougall's  party,  but  the  better  counsel  prevailed.  I  mention  this 
to  show  that  the  preponderance  of  feeling  is  in  favor  of  peace,  except 
among  some  of  the  young  men. 

There  is  no  doubt  but  Spotted  Tail  was  very  much  chagrined  and  dis 
appointed  at  the  performance.  Some  of  the  Indians  about  here  are 
adapting  themselves  to  our  ways,  and  disposed  to  engage  in  farming.  I 
think  the  influence  of  the  half-breeds  among  them  is  not  good.  I  think 
there  was  great  suffering  among  them  last  year ;  but  this  year  they  are 
satisfied,  and  they  do  not  beg.  The  fact  that  they  do  not  beg  now  shows 
that  they  are  not  suffering  at  present. 

Q.  Does  your  experience  enable  you  to  suggest  any  plan  by  which  we 
can  get  rid  of  these  squaw-men  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  a  great  deal  of  trouble  arises  from  the  fact  that 
the  power  of  Indian  agents  is  too  temporary.  I  think  their  commission 
should  be  during  good  behavior,  and  they  should  have  salary  large 
enough  to  make  them  independent.  An  Army  officer  does  not  allow  any 
one  around  the  post  whom  he  does  not  want ;  but  an  Indian  agent  is  too 
tender,  sometimes,  of  those  around  the  agency,  and  has  to  act  politic 
with  them,  and  keep  them  on  his  side ;  otherwise  they  would  trump  up 
lies  and  get  him  removed,  whether  he  is  good  or  bad.  I  think  the  great 
est  benefit  to  be  derived  would  be  from  a  commission  for  Indian  agents 
like  Army  officers — for  life. 
32  IF 


498 

Q.  Your  opinion,  then,  is  that  most  of  the  agents  are  fully  impressed 
with  the  fact  of  the  injurious  effect  resulting  from  those  squaw-men  being 
about  the  agencies,  but  are  not  clothed  with  the  authority  or  tenure  of 
office  to  enable  them  to  get  rid  of  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Another  thing  I  might  state.  Of  course,  in  their  deal 
ings  with  the  Indians,  the  object  of  the  Indian  Department  and  the  War 
Department  is  the  same,  that  is,  to  civilize  the  Indians ;  but,  as  the  mat 
ter  now  stands,  there  is  too  much  jealousy  and  suspicion  between  the 
temporary  officers  acting  as  agents  and  the  Army  officers.  Army  offi 
cers  act  more  authoritatively,  and  would  like  to  see  more  authority  ex 
ercised  at  the  agency.  There  is  the  best  of  feeling  existing  here,  but  I 
have  seen  other  places  where  the  commanding  officer  and  the  agent  sus 
pected  each  other,  and  they  did  not  work  in  harmony.  If  this  other 
plan  were  adopted,  there  would  be  a  unity  of  feeling  that  cannot  exist 
under  the  present  regime.  A  great  many  think  that  the  management 
of  Indian  affairs  ought  to  be  in  the  hands  of  the  Army,  but  I  think  the 
same  result  that  those  people  anticipate  would  be  obtained  if  the  Indian 
agent,  a  civilian,  were  appointed  for  life.  Army  officers  are  tried  by 
their  peers  ;  an  Indian  agent  should  be  in  the  same  position. 

Q.  Are  there  any  persons  that  you  know  of  who  have  information  of 
their  own  knowledge  of  any  iucompetency  or  frauds  on  the  part  of  the 
agent  here  ? 

A.  I  have  heard  a  great  many  people  say  things  were  wrong,  and  all 
that,  but  I  don't  know  whether  they  knew  or  not.  Several  persons, 
squaw-men,  came  to  me. and  said  they  knew  of  frauds  and  would  sub 
stantiate  their  statements  as  soon  as  this  commission  came,  but  some  of 
them  had  not  the  intelligence  to  know. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  CHAELES  M.  EOCKEFELLER. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  ? 

Answer.  I  am  lieutenant  in  the  Ninth  Infantry — quartermaster  and 
commissary  at  Gamp  Sheridan. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  Camp  Sheridan  I 

A.  Since  it  was  established. 

Q.  That  was  in  August  or  September1? 

'  A.  On  the  12th  of  September  of  last  year.  On  the  9th  of  September, 
1874,  the  first  troops  were  stationed  here;  we  came  here  before  the 
agency-buildings  were  put  up. 

Q.  During  the  time  that  you  have  been  here  have  you  had  occasion 
to  observe  the  herds  of  cattle  that  were  turned  over  to  the  agency  for 
issue  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  some  of  them  ;  I  have  seen  several  of  the  herds. 

Q.  What  was  the  general  appearance  and  character  of  them  ? 

A.  Texan  cattle,  all  of  them  j  I  do  not  think  there  was  any  exception. 
I  think  they  were  poor  specimens  of  Texas  cattle ;  probably  the  poorest 
Texan  cattle ;  that  is,  the  lowest  grade.  There  are  some  grades  of  Texan 
cattle  that  are  as  good  in  the  spring  of  the  year  as  American  cattle.  I 
had  both  American  and  Texan  cattle  in  Arizona,  and  in  the  spring-time 
the  officers  preferred  the  Texan  cattle. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  suffering  of  the  Indians  here  last 
winter  and  this  spring? 


499 

A.  Only  what  I  saw  and  beard  of,  that  they  suffered.  1  never  had 
any  doubt  that  they  suffered  a  great  deal  more  than  white  men  could 
have  suffered  and  lived  under  it. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  state  anything  as  to  the  causes  of  the  suffering; 
who  was  to  blame  for  it  ? 

A.  I  am  not ;  of  my  personal  knowledge  I  am  not  able  to  tell  who  was 
to  blame ;  but  that  some  one  was  to  blame  I  have  20  doubt,  and  never 
had  any  doubt. 

Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  since  you  have  been  here,  since  the  agency 
has  been  established,  to  examine  at  any  time  the  supplies  issued 
here1? 

A.  I  have  never  had  any  occasion  to  do  so.  I  have  been  here  on  issue- 
days  at  times  and  seen  the  quality  of  the  provisions.  I  have  seen  them 
issue  pork  of  the  poorest  quality,  something  that  the  Subsistence  Depart 
ment  of  the  Army  would  condemn. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  noticed  the  sugar  and  coffee  ? 

A.  I  have  never  noticed  the  coffee,  except  at  one  time  the  contractor 
for  hauling  Government  supplies  from  Sidney  here  was  short  one  sack 
of  coffee,  and  he  wanted  to  transfer  to  me  a  sack  that  he  purchased  of 
one  of  these  squaw-men,  and  he  brought  it  to  my  commissary  and  I  re 
fused  to  receive  it,  and  the  board  of  survey  refused  it,  and  it  was  re 
turned  to  the  men  ;  it  was  Indian  coffee,  and  it  was  not  such  as  we  would 
issue  to  the  troops. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  examined  the  flour ! 

A.  I  have  had  no  occasion  to  examine  the  flour,  but  company  command 
ers  have  reported  tome  concerning  the  quality  of  the  Indian  flour.  When 
we  first  arrived  we  had  more  hard-bread  than  flour ;  the  Indians  pre 
ferred  hard-bread  to  flour,  and  they  were  giving  two  sacks  of  flour  for 
one  box  of  hard-bread,  (a  box  of  hard-bread  will  weigh  from  forty  to 
sixty  pounds  net ;)  they  were  giving  two  sacks  of  flour  for  one  box  of 
hard-bread.  As  commissary  I  made  no  such  exchange,  but  company 
commanders  would  allow  their  men  to  do  it ;  then  they  would  take  one 
sack  of  commissary  flour  and  two  sacks  of  Indian  flour  and  make  bread 
for  their  companies  ;  but  they  soon  stopped  that  and  it  is  not  done  now. 
That  was  something  that  the  agent  himself  probably  had  no  knowledge 
of.  The  Indians,  or  the  white  men  around  here,  would  trade  it  for  hard 
bread,  but  if  he  knew  of  any  such  case  he  objected  to  it.  The  soldiers 
found  that  the  Indian  flour  was  not  as  good  as  the  commissary  flour  and 
they  concluded  that  they  would  rather  eat  hard-bread.  It  was  not  spoiled, 
but  it  was  a  poor  grade.  The  flour  we  got  for  the  Army  would  average 
$2.25  per  hundred  pounds  without  transportation  ;  with  transportation 
added,  from  Omaha  here,  the  price  would  be  increased  to  about  $6.25 
per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  ot  stating,  approximately  at  least,  the  average 
weight  of  cattle  that  you  received  at  the  post  f 

A.  By  contract  the  cattle  must  be  steers  of  good  quality  ;  must  net 
five  hundred  pounds,  but  they  don't  always  do  it. 

Q.  Are  the  cattle  you  get  Texas  cattle  1 

A.  Sometimes  Texas  cattle,  but  most  generally  half-breeds.  If  they 
are  in  good  order  they  are  good  beef.  We  are  not  getting  for  the  Army, 
now,  the  best  quality  of  beef,  by  any  means.  The  contractor  gets  eight 
cents  per  pound  on  the  block ;  he  cannot  furnish  the  best  beef  for  that 
price.  He  gets  six  cents  net  on  the  hoof,  by  the  contract,  when  we  re 
quire  them  on  the  hoof.  In  cattle  weighing  thirteen  hundred  pounds 
and  over  they  allow  55  per  cent,  for  the  net  weight ;  in  cattle  under 
thirteen  hundred  50  per  cent,  for  the  net  weight. 


500 

Q.  Have  you  DO  recollection  or  means  of  telling  about  the  average 
weight  of  any  cattle  that  you  may  have  received  on  foot  ? 

A.  I  have  received  but  two  cattle  on  foot ;  I  never  weigh  any  on  foot. 

Q.  Now,  the  cattle  that  you  have  seen  at  various  times,  herds  of  cattle 
that  were  turned  over  to  the  Indian  agency,  how  would  they  compare 
in  size  and  weight  with  those  you  receive  ? 

A.  Some  of  the  cattle  received  here  for  the  Indian  Department  would 
net  over  five  hundred  pounds;  some  of  them,  in  my  opinion,  would  net 
less.  I  have  seen  heavy  steers  here ;  I  have  seen  old  cattle  in  their 
herds  that  might  have  been  worked  $  they  would  net  over  five  hundred 
pounds  mj  their  bones  alone  would  net  pretty  near  that — heavy-framed 
steers.  Then  my  answer  to  that  question  would  be,  I  believe  some  of 
them  would  net  over  five  hundred,  and  that  some  of  them  would  net 
less. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  the  military  use  more  cows  than  steers,  or  more  steers  than 
cows?  Which  do  they  prefer — good  fat  cows  or  steers  for  beef? 

A.  The  contract  says  nothing  about  cows ;  it  don't  allow  cows  ;  it 
says  steers  ;  but  they  do  send  me  cows,  and  I  use  them,  but  I  would 
prefer  not  to  have  them.  Sometimes  the  contractor  here  would  send  us 
beef  that  we  would  not  take,  if  we  were  wrhere  we  could  purchase  in 
open  market.  I  have  tried  several  times  to  purchase  beef  in  open  mar 
ket,  but  could  not  do  so.  Sometimes  I  have  received  cows  and  yearlings 
that  I  should  not  receive  if  I  were  where  I  could  purchase  in  open 
market. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  notice  any  yearlings  among  the  Indian  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  to  my  recollection. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  read  the  pamphlet  of  Professor  Marsh  containing  his 
charges  with  reference  to  the  mismanagement  of  the  Indian  agencies  out 
here  ? 

A.  I  recollect  reading  a  letter,  or  synopsis  of  one,  in  the  New  York 
Tribune,  which  embodied  some  charges  of  Professor  Marsh  against  the 
Interior  Department,  but  I  do  not  recollect  to-day  what  Professor  Marsh 
charges  the  Interior  Department  with  doing  or  with  not  doing.  I  rec 
ollect  reading  of  Professor  Marsh  going  to  the  President  with  samples 
of  coffee,  sugar,  tobacco,  &c.,  but  I  have  never  seen  the  pamphlet  which 
Colonel  Mills  spoke  to  you  about. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  then,  of  any  mismanagement  or  fraud  on  the  part 
of  the  Indian  agent  or  any  person  connected  with  the  management  of 
Indian  affairs  of  wrhich  you  could  give  us  information,  or  of  any  per 
sons  to  whom  you  could  refer  us  that  would  be  likely  to  give  us  such 
information  ! 

A.  Of  my  own  personal  knowledge,  Governor,  I  could  say  nothing  that 
would  implicate  any  particular  person.  I  was  with  the  agent,  Mr. 
Howard,  a  good  deal  last  winter,  and  he  seemed  to  be  right  worried 
that  his  supplies  did  not  get  here.  I  told  him  I  had  no  doubt  his 
Indians  were  hungry  ;  that  they  were  coming  to  us  and  troubling  us 
a  great  deal,  and  I  was  afraid  the  War  Department  would  object  to  the 
issue  of  stores  to  them.  There  is  an  order  from  the  War  Department 
which  allows  a  post  commander  to  issue  provisions  in  small  quantities  to 
the  Indians.  That  was  done  in  one  or  two  instances  to  some  of  these 
Indians — a  box  of  hard-bread,  a  little  bacon  or  coffee  was  given  them  ; 
but  when  they  got  so  hungry  on  account  of  the  non-arrival  of  their 
supplies,  they  came  to  us  for  food,  and  we  helped  them  all  we  could  j 


501 

but  we  could  not  help  them  much.  I  had  to  attend  to  the  troops  first, 
and  I  did  attend  to  the  Indians  so  much  that  I  received  a  circular  from 
the  War  Department  saying  that  it  was  not  the  duty  of  the  Subsistence 
Department  of  the  Army  to  furnish  supplies  to  the  Indians,  the  Interior 
Department  having  notified  the  War  Department  that  there  was  no 
provision  in  the  Indian  bill  for  re  imbursing  the  Subsistence  Department 
of  the  Army  for  supplies  issued  by  the  Army.  Perhaps,  Governor,  our 
having  issued  here  did  not  call  forth  this  circular,  because  we  never 
issued  any  great  number  of  pounds  of  bacon  or  hard-bread — perhaps 
five  hundred  pounds  per  month. 

By  Mr,  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Upon  wbat  facts  do  you  base  the  conclusion  that  the  Indians  suf 
fered  materially  during  last  winter;  upon  the  mere  fact  that  they  were 
here  begging  for  food,  or  upon  what  other  facts  do  you  base  the  conclu 
sion  ? 

A.  Well,  from  the  fact  that  the  Indian  agent  came  to  me  and  said 
that  he  had  (these  things  I  have  on  record)  no  pork  for  them,  and  that 
the  beef-cattle  were  not  here ;  that  he  had  worried  and  written  and 
written  the  contractor  for  the  beef-cattle,  and  he  was  hurrying  them  for 
ward  as  fast  as  possible  ;  because  I  was  here  and  knew  that  that  was 
the  case  ;  that  they  had  no  meat  for  the  Indians;  that  they  had  some 
Hour,  (no  sugar,)  but  that  the  meat — the  beef — was  what  the  Indians 
wanted.  If  you  give  an  Indian  all  the  beef  he  wants  he  is  satisfied. 
Meat  is  what  they  live  on.  They  estimate  the  number  of  Indians  at 
this  agency  at  something  like  six  thousand ;  but  six  thousand  white 
men  would  never  have  lived  as  these  Indians  did.  But  I  don't  blame 
the  agent  here.  As  Colonel  Mills  has  said,  our  intercourse  has  been 
quite  friendly ;  but  some  one  must  have  been  to  blame  that  they  had 
not  sufficient  supplies  here.  I  don't  see  why,  on  a  line  two  hundred 
and  sixty-three  miles  long,  from  here  to  Fort  Kandall,  on  the  Missouri 
Elver,  where  the  supplies,  except  the  beef,  came  from  last  winter,  that 
they  should  wait  until  winter  before  having  them  shipped.  If  the 
Subsistence  Department  of  the  Army  did  that  the  men  who  are  liable 
would  have  to  quit. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  the  beef-cattle  did  not  arrive  here  in 
time ! 

A.  On  the  2d  of  January  last  there  set  in  a  very  severe  snow-storm, 
and  it  lasted,  with  exceedingly  cold  weather,  from  nineteen  to  twenty- 
five  days,  when  the  thermometer  did  not  pretend  to  run  above  zero ; 
during  that  time  those  Indians  were  trying  to  get  beef  until  February. 
I  made  inquiries — I  took  no  date ;  I  have  no  recollection  of  dates — 
but  it  was  during  January  and  February  that  the  Indians  suffered  the 
most,  and  the  agent  told  me  that  the  contractors  were  getting  their 
cattle  up  as  fast  as  possible.  I  think  they  stampeded  two  or  three 
times,  and  they  were  pushing  them  from  the  Platte  through  the  snow 
as  fast  as  they  could — as  rapidly  as  possible.  I  think  they  were  thirty- 
odd  days  without  their  usual  issue  of  beef  to  the  Indians.  The  Indians 
killed  their  dogs,  but  they  will  kill  one  of  their  dogs  as  the  white  man  will 
kill  a  turkey — a  dog  is  a  luxury.  I  understand  that  some  of  them  killed 
their  ponies,  but  I  never  saw  them  do  it,  because  their  old  traditions 
and  everything  of  that  kind  would  keep  the  Indian  from  killing  his 
pony  until  he  was  compelled  to  do  it. 

Q.  If  there  had  been  supplied  at  the  proper  time  and  on  hand  here 
sufficient  pork  and  bacon,  then  the  failure  to  get  the  beef-cattle  here 
would  not  have  caused  any  suffering  among  the  people  ? 


502 

A.  Would  not  have  caused  any  privation  particularly. 

Q.  If  there  are  any  suggestions  you  can  make  that  would  be  of  any 
advantage  to  the  Government  or  the  Indians,  we  would  be  glad  if  you 
would  give  them  to  us. 

A.  I  believe  that  a  store-house,  large  enough  for  storing  all  necessary 
solid  meats,  could  be  erected  here,  and  the  stores  got  in  here  before  the 
severe  storms  commence.  Beef -cattle  it  would  be  right  difficult  to  herd 
and  hold  here,  as  much  as  would  supply  the  Indians  for  three  months 
at  one  time ;  it  would  be  hard  work  to  subsist  such  a  herd  of  cattle. 
With  reference  to  agriculture,  as  to  the  Indians  raising  much,  I  be 
lieve  they  may  do  so  ;  there  is  a  band  among  them  known  as  the  "Corn" 
band,  that  started  to  raise  corn,  and  the  other  Indians  made  a  great 
deal  of  fun  of  them.  My  experience  in  Arizona  with  the  Pimos  is 
that  they  raised  a  great  deal  of  corn  ;  that  would  jmy  the  Indian  for 
his  labor.  I  think  they  might  have  good  herds  ;  the  country  is  adapted 
to  grazing,  but,  as  to  farming,  I  think  it  is  improbable  that  you  will 
ever  get  the  regular  full-blooded  Indian  to  engage  in  it  to  any  consid 
erable  extent.  The  best  prospect  for  them  is  to  encourage  them  in 
herding  cattle  and  raising  stock.  These  Indians  here,  I  think,  are  as 
lazy  as  any  I  ever  saw. 

Q.  Taking  everything  into  consideration,  and  the  short  time  that 
these  Indians  have  had  to  acquire  any  civilization,  the  progress  among 
them  is  encouraging,  is  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  those  that  are  here  are  the  most  peaceably  in 
clined  Indians  I  have  seen  in  this  section  of  the  country ;  I  think  it  is 
the  most  peaceable  baud  of  the  Sioux  Nation — I  mean  the  whole  of  the 
Brule  band  at  this  agency. 


COUNCIL  WITH  THE  BRULfi  SIOUX. 

In  the  afternoon,  (Monday,  August  16,)  an  interview  was  held  with  the 
Brule  Sioux,  in  the  open  space  in  front  of  the  agent's  office.  The  Indians 
sat  on  the  ground  in  the  form  of  a  semicircle,  Spotted  Tail  and  Swift  Bear, 
the  two  principal  chiefs,  occupying  chairs  nearest  the  commissioners. 
Among  the  other  Brules  present  were  Looking  Horse,  He  Dog,  Tall 
Bull,  Two  Strike,  Kill  on  Horseback,  White  Wash,  Baptiste  Good,  and 
Good  Hawk.  There  is  some  question  about  the  high  standing  of  some 
of  these,  however,  as  Spotted  Tail  and  Swift  Bear  explained  to  the  com 
missioners  afterward.  At  the  outset  some  question  arose  among  the 
discontented  head-men  as  to  interpreters.  They  objected  to  Louis  Bor 
deaux,  an  intelligent  half-breed,  on  the  ground  that  he  was  kindly  dis 
posed  toward  Spotted  Tail,  and  might  not  do  them  justice.  The  agent 
asked  them  who  they  wanted,  and  they  said  Geru,  who  is  a  white  man. 
That  individual  was  sent  for,  but  he  refused  to  come.  Then  the  agent 
told  them  that  here  were  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cleveland  and  Mr.  Alston,  both 
of  whom  understood  their  language,  and  they  could  correct  any  mistake 
that  might  be  made.  The  disaffected  faction  finally  agreed  to  this  ar 
rangement,  and  the  talk  began,  Mr.  Quigley,  another  white  man,  sub 
sequently  taking  the  place  of  Mr.  Alston. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  My  friends,  we  come  here  to  see  you,  and  to  talk  with 
you  as  good  friends.  We  want  you  to  tell  us  how  you  have  been  treated 
by  the  agent  arid  by  everybody  else  who  has  had  anything  to  do  with  you, 
We  want  you  to  tell  us  if  the  sugar,  coffee,  flour,  beef,  and  tobacco  that 
you  have  been  getting  have  been  good,  and  if  there  has  been  enough  of 


503 

them.  If  you  have  not  had  what  the  Great  Father  intended  you  should 
have,  we  want  you  to  tell  us  whose  fault  it  is,  if  you  know.  If  we  find 
that  anybody  has  wronged  you  or  cheated  you,  we  will  have  them  pun 
ished  for  it.  We  want  you  to  speak  freely  about  it,  and  what  you  say 
will  be  put  down,  every  word  of  it,  and  the  gentlemen  here  (Messrs. 
Faulkner  and  Harris)  will  tell  it  in  the  great  council  of  the  white  men. 
We  are  glad  to  see  you  all,  and  we  are  glad  to  learn  that  you  have  been 
trying  to  be  like  the  white  man,  so  that  after  a  while  we  hope  we  will  all 
be  like  one  people.  If  we  can  help  you  in  any  way  we  will  try  to  do  so. 
All  that  we  came  here  for  was  to  learn  if  you  had  been  treated  well,  and, 
if  you  had  not,  to  punish  the  men  who  treated  you  badly.  We  want  to 
talk  to  you  like  brothers.  We  don't  come  to  promise  you  anything,  and 
we  don't  want  you  to  promise  us  anything.  ^Now,  when  you  talk  to  us  we 
will  take  all  your  words  and  tell  them  to  the  Great  Father.  That  is  all. 

GOOD  HAWK.  You  have  come  h'ere  to  visit  us,  and  we  are  very  much 
pleased,  indeed,  at  that.  At  the  old  agency  we  know  that  our  agent  did 
treat  us  well  and  gave  us  provisions,  but,  from  that  time  on,  our  provisions 
have  decreased  regularly,  until  now  there  is  a  great  deficiency.  The 
sugar  we  received  here  was  just  as  yellow  as  the  sun-flower,  and  it  was  so 
bad  that  it  killed  some  of  our  people,  and  you  can  see  the  graves  of  those 
on  the  hills  yonder,  who  died  from  eating  the  sugar.  The  beef  we  are 
getting  here  is  very  small,  and  they  issue  one  head  of  beef  to  every  five 
or  six  lodges,  and  the  beef  is  so  small  that  it  does  not  go  around,  and 
the  old  w^omen  and  children  starve  to  death  because  they  do  not  get 
enough  beef.  Whenever  we  receive  beef-cattle,  if  they  are  big,  they  are 
too  old ;  they  are  so  old  they  have  not  got  any  teeth.  And  also  the  pork 
we  received  was  of  no  account.  It  was  soaked  in  water,  and  we  could 
not  eat  it,  and  if  we  do  eat  it,  it  kills  our  children.  Look  around  and 
see  me  and  rny  people.  We  have  not  got  good  blankets.  The  blankets 
we  have  are  so  small,  we  have  to  take  two  blankets  to  make  one,  and 
the  brand  on  the  blankets  spoils  them.  We  received  the  annuity  goods 
in  the  middle  of  the  winter,  and  we  had  a  hard  time  because  they 
were  not  received  sooner.  If  you  had  not  come  by  this  time,  I  would 
have  been  without  anything  to  eat.  We  would  like  to  have  the  beef 
issued  to  us  on  the  hoof  all  the  time.  There  are  three  agencies,  all  close 
together,  just  like  one  people,  and  when  one  or  two  lodges  come  here 
from  other  places  and  ask  for  rations,  the  agent  refuses  to  give  to  them, 
and  that  does  not  please  us.  The  yoiiDg  men  know  we  were  bom  in 
this  country,  that  this  is  our  country,  and  in  this  country  we  have  a 
great  many  beautiful  creeks.  The  timber  along  these  creeks  we  can 
never  exhaust,  and  the  pine  through  this  country  we  can  never  exhaust ; 
so  I  wish  you  to  do  well  by  us.  As  yet  I  do  not  know  of  anything  by  which 
I  can  teach  myself  to  learn  white  men's  ways.  The  wagons  which 
they  brought  here  for  us  were  brought  in  a  broken  condition.  That  I 
might  have  firm  possession  of  the  country  this  side  of  the  Platte  I  wish 
you  to  help  me.  I  have  one  last  thing  which  1  desire  to  say  very  much — 
one  thing  which  I  wish  you  to  take  hold  of  for  me ;  that  is,  the  matter  of 
my  food.  For  more  than  a  mouth  I  have  been  without  food — a  thing 
which  has  used  up  and  done  for  many  of  my  children. 

BAPTISTS  GOOD.  You  gentlemen  have  come  here  from  the  Great 
Father,  and  these  people  all  know  you  have  come  from  the  Great  Father, 
and  so  we  are  all  glad  at  heart  to  see  you.  We  Indians  who  are  away 
off  back  here,  as  for  us,  the  Great  Father  sends  out  you  to  us,  and  wishes 
us  to  counsel,  and  wishes  to  know  our  thoughts  and  opinions.  In  coun 
cil  I  gave  the  ideas  of  the  people.  They  were  sent  to  the  Great  Father, 
and  they  were  all  lost.  They  never  got  there.  You  have  come,  and  if 


604 

you  hear  us  well  and  assist  us  I  think  we  will  dwell  here  permanently. 
The  Great  Father  sent  you  out  here  and  instructed  you  to  inquire  ot  me 
particularly  with  regard  to  all  matters;  instructed  you  to  inquire  of  all 
the  people  with  regard  to  their  affairs,  and  I  now  tell  you  of  these  things 
for  this  people.  I  heard  that  the  Great  Father  was  to  give  this  people 
something  ;  that  he  was  to  give  them  work,  cattle,  and  cows  that  would 
produce  young,  and  also  nice  wagons  to  which  we  could  hitch  up  two 
horses.  They  brought  the  wagons  here  and  put  them  out  there,  and  how 
many  winters  they  stayed  there  I  don't  know.  The  men  who  have  charge 
of  hauling  freight  across  broke  them  all  to  pieces.  As  for  the  working- 
cattle  which  they  were  to  bring  me,  some  of  them  died  and  were  choked 
by  the  bow  before  they  got  here.  My  father  (the  agent)  said  he  would  give 
me  these  wagons  and  cattle,  but  the  wagons  were  broken  and  some  of 
the  cattle  were  choked  to  death  by  the  contractor.  So  I  give  them  back— 
I  want  to  give  them  back  to  the  contractor  and  get  others  for  them. 
The  Great  Father  commanded  you  to  inquire  into  everything.  He  has 
the  oversight  of  all  these  things,  and  he  commanded  you  to  inquire  into 
them  all.  Recently  a  fine  young  man  was  killed  right  off  here  by  the 
soldiers.  The  soldiers  also  took  their  horses  from  those  Indians,  and  I 
supposed  the  man  whom  I  have  for  father  (the  agent)  would  attend  to 
getting  them  back  for  me,  but  he  has  not  done  it.  Nothing  has  been  done 
about  it.  The  Great  Spirit  gave  us  many  kinds  of  game  to  live  upon. 
The  whites  try  to  take  that  game  away  from  us.  General  Harney,  and 
Sanborn,  and  myself  went  to  Fort  Laramie  and  fixed  it  there,  [the  treaty 
of  1868,]  so  that  the  wrhites  could  not  take  our  game  away  from  us. 
After  we  fixed  the  papers  there  the  Indians  went  south  on  a  hunt,  and 
one  got  killed  by  the  whites.  His  name  was  Whistler.  The  Indians  used 
to  go  buffalo  hunting  in  the  south,  but  the  Government  asked  them  to 
give  up  the  hunting-grounds  for  $25,000.  But  that  is  not  enough.  It  is 
pretty  hard  for  us  to  give  up  the  hunting-ground  for  that  amount  of 
money,  because  the  money  is  so  small  that  it  don't  go  around  among  our 
people.  The  Brules  are  camped  above  here  and  the  Loafers  below,  and 
we  received  but  ten  thousand  dollars  here,  and  that  was  very  small. 
The  horses  they  bring  us  to  pay  for  giving  up  the  hunting-grounds  cost 
$120.38  a  head,  but  some  of  them  are  only  one  year  old,  and  some  only 
two  years  old,  and  some  so  old  they  have  no  teeth.  The  Brules  received 
fifty  five  head  of  horses,  and  the  cows  we  received  here  were  thirty-nine 
head,  and  some  of  them  were  only  one  year  old,  and  some  two  years  old, 
and  some  so  old  they  had  no  teeth.  The  Loafers  received  twenty- 
five  head  of  horses  and  thirty-nine  head  of  cows.  Some  of  the  cows 
that  we  ought  to  have  had  were  gone,  and  they  replaced  them 
with  Texas  cows  that  the  Great  Father  had  given  us  to  eat.  The  Great 
Father  says  there  are  plenty  of  good  white  people  in  the  States.  The 
Great  Father  sent  a  man  here  as  an  agent  and  told  him  he  must  pity  us. 
They  scared  me  on  one  thing;  that  wns,  they  tried  to  count  me.  Four 
lodges  got  beef  once  in  thirty  days,  five  lodges  got  beef  once  in  twenty 
days,  but  they  got  very  poor  and  very  little,  and  the  beef  is  very  bad. 
Six  lodges  got  beef  once  in  every  ten  days,  but  it  is  also  very  small  and 
very  poor.  Seven  lodges  got  beef  once  in  ten  days  ;  it  was  very  smal  1 
and  very  poor  too,  and  they  had  a  hard  time  of  it.  My  Great  Father 
gives  me  food  for  one  year,  and  although  I  don't  know  how,  very  well, 
I  endeavored  to  take  account  of  what  they  did  give  me,  and  I  endeavored 
to  take  account  of  the  cattle  that  they  already  issued  me,  not  including 
the  cows.  The  issue  that  they  gave  me  for  ten  days' supply,  the  flour  is 
about  so,  [indicating,]  and  the  sugar  is  about  so,  and  the  coffee  is  about 
so,  and  as  for  pork,  they  gave  me  a  piece  about  so  long,  [indicating,)  and 


505 

it  is  very  thin,  and  in  two  days  I  used  all  that  up.  One  month  they 
gave  me  sixty  pounds  of  flour,  and  I  was  not  able  to  get  a  sack  for  a 
mouth.  I  could  not  get  a  sack  of  flour  a  month. 

These  people  around  here  all  think  alike,  and  I  tell  you  what  they  think. 
When  you  came  here  to  see  us  we  were  delighted.  I  am  no  friend  of 
those  that  lie,  and  I  am  pitiful,  and  I  want  you  to  take  pity  on  me,  and 
this  man  that  the  Great  Father  sent  here  for  agent  we  wish  you  to  have 
him  taken  back  to  the  Great  Father.  I  would  not  have  you  think  by  this 
that  I  want  a  soldier  to  be  my  agent.  I  am  in  a  hard  case.  What  I 
want  is  some  good  white  man  to  be  appointed  my  agent,  who  will  look 
after  me  well.  As  regards  the  flour,  they  don't  give  me  any  bags.  They 
pour  out  the  flour  for  me  and  I  have  to  make  a  bundle  of  it,  whereas  those 
flour-sacks  I  would  use  for  a  shirt,  or  to  make  dresses  for  niy  women  and 
children.  So  long  as  I  am  here  I  desire  the  cattle  to  be  given  to  me  on 
the  hoof,  that  I  may  kill  the  cattle  myself  as  I  see  fit.  The  Great  Father- 
told  me  to  give  up  this  buffalo-hunt,  and  he  told  me  he  would  give  me  as 
inary  buffaloes  (cattle)  as  I  gave  up.  I  want  the  cattle  delivered  tome 
on  foot  as  long  as  the  agency  lasts.  The  Great  Father  gave  me  food 
for  one  year,  and  when  the  year  was  up  the  agent  told  me  to  sign  the 
papers  for  the  rations.  So  I  signed  the  paper,  and  at  the  same  time  I 
did  not  know  how  to  read  or  write ;  I  was  afraid  I  did  not  receive  them 
all,  but  still  I  signed  it.  There  are  plenty  of  white  men  around  here,  and 
I  wish  to  have  one  of  them  selected  to  look  over  those  papers  and  read 
the  ration-returns  before  I  sign  them ;  also  the  annuity-goods  the  same. 
I  want  to  have  a  man  to  examine  them,  and  when  the  papers 
are  all  right,  we  will  sign  them  and  send  them  back  to  the  Great  Father. 
Also  the  provisions  they  send  here,  I  want  them  put  in  the  papers  and  sent 
them  to  me,  and  I  will  look  them  over,  and  sign  them,  and  send  them 
back  to  the  Great  Father.  As  for  plows  and  other  things  by  which  you 
are  anxious  to  make  these  people  white  men,  if  you  desire  to  make  white 
men  of  them,  hurry  up  and  give  them  farming  implements  to  work  with. 
In  this  Loafer  baud  there  are  white  men  living  among  us  that  we  have 
for  relatives.  In  this  Brule  camp  it  is  the  same  way.  We  have  those 
men  for  relations,  and  if  you  give  us  these  implements  they  will  instruct  us 
to  make  use  of  them.  So  hurry  up  and  give  them  to  us.  When  these  peo 
ple  come  to  council  they  come  out  openly,  and  that  is  what  we  call 
truth.  When  the  council  is  in  the  night,  it  is  evident  or  probable  that 
there  is  something  underhand  going  on  ;  but  this  council  in  the  night 
is  something  that  this  people  don't  desire.  The  wood  they  are  getting 
for  the  houses  here,  that  is  money,  and  there  is  nobody  to  look  after  it, 
and  I  want  you  to  look  after  it  for  me.  The  white  man  is  in  the  Black 
Hills  just  like  maggots,  arid  I  want  you  to  get  them  out  just  as  quick  as 
you  can.  The  chief  of  all  thieves  (General  Ouster)  made  a  road  into  the 
Black  Hills  last  summer,  and  I  want  the  Great  Father  to  pay  the  dama 
ges  for  what  Ouster  done.  As  for  cutting  the  hay  about  here,  no  one  at 
tends  to  that  for  me,  and  of  you  good  men  who  are  here,  I  hope  some 
of  you  will  attend  to  it  for  me.  The  traders'  stores  are  connected  with 
the  agency,  close  together,  and  I  do  not  like  it  that  way ;  I  do  not  want 
to  have  it  that  way.  If  I  go  to  sell  a  beef-hide  I  value  it  at  $3,  but 
when  I  come  to  get  anything  for  that  money  I  get  very  little  for  it.  I 
take  the  $3  out  in  trade,  and  get  very  little  over  a  dollar's  worth  of  actual 
value  for  it.  If  I  got  a  buffalo-robe,  a  long  haired  robe,  from  any  where, 
I  would  like  to  wear  it  around  me;  but  if  I  get  oue  I  take  it  and  trade 
it,  and  I  get  only  three  or  four  dollars  for  it  in  trade,  and  that  is  very 
hard.  If  I  get  a  beaver-skin,  or  wolf-skin,  or  bear-skin,  when  I  go  to 
trade  them  off  I  get  about  what  they  call  a  dollar  for  it,  but  it  is  not 


506 

more  than  ten  cents,  and  I  cannot  consent  to  that.  The  time  they  made 
the  treaty  at  Fort  Laramie  General  Haruey  and  Sanborn  made  a  land 
mark,  having  the  Platte  Eiver  for  one  and  the  Missouri  Kiver  for  an 
other  line  for  our  reservation,  and  we  gave  up  the  country  south  of  the 
Platte  for  a  hunting-ground,  and  we  wish  to  have  the  country. from 
the  North  Platte,  and  I  .want  you  to  help  me. 

Two  STRIKE.  If  you  come  here  by  order  of  the  Great  Father  to 
council  with  us,  we  want  you  to  tell  us  so  honestly  and  straightfor- 
wardty.  You  good  men  and  good  young  men  because  you  have  come 
here  to-day  you  make  my  heart  exceedingly  glad.  Men  have  been  sent 
here  before  as  commissioners,  and  I  know  that  the  Great  Father  told  them 
to  do  right  $  but  it  seems  that  when  they  got  here  to  my  land  they  changed 
and  did  some  meanness  from  what  I  know  the  Great  Father  told  me.  This 
laud  belongs  to  me.  I  have  been  born  and  raised  here,  and  am  fifty- 
four  years  of  age.  This  land  is  good,  and  I  have  been  born  and  raised 
here,  and  I  know  it  is  good,  and  that  is  the  reason  I  am  on  it.  All 
around  here  I  do  not  know  of  any  laud  as  good  as  this.  This  land  is 
good  land,  and  half  of  it  belongs  to  the  Indians,  and  they  are  living  on 
it.  I  cannot  leave  this  laud.  The  young  men  among  the  Indians  liv 
ing  along  this  creek  have  had  very  few  implements  or  ways  of  doing 
anything,  but  they  have  done  the  best  they  could  with  their  hands,  and 
have  done  something  and  do  not  want  to  leave. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  do  not  want  you  to  leave  $  we  want  you  to  stay 
here  always. 

Two  STRIKE.  So  that  you  will  help  us  strong  is  the  reason  I  am. 
telling  you  this.  The  old  white  men  have  been  a  long  time  with  us — 
Mr.  Bissonet,  Louis  Bordeaux's  father,  Frank  Marshall,  Charley  Geru, 
Todd  Kandall,  Eeshaw,  Boucher,  Quigley,  Moran,  and  Qlerniont.  Some 
of  the  white  men  that  live  with  us  do  not  use  me  right.  They  steal 
from  me,  and  I  take  pity  on  them.  There  are  men  here  who  have  got 
no  right  here.  They  are  not  married  to  Indian  women,  and  they  eat 
the  rations,  and  1  would  like  to  have  them  removed.  I  know  well  how 
to  live.  What  would  be  the  means  to  live  with  I  know  very  well.  It 
is  the  thing  that  a  man  eats  that  makes  him  live,  and  I  would  like  you 
to  tell  the  Great  Father  to  give  me  more  grub.  Since  I. have  been  born 
I  have  been  used  to  eat  well,  not  to  rations  for  ten  days.  I  kill  buffalo 
every  day  and  eat  it ;  but  my  Father  (the  agent)  cuts  me  shorthand  wants 
to  give  me  meat  on  the  block,  and  that  would  be  very  hard ;  I  want  it  on 
the  hoof.  I  want  you  to  fix  these  things  for  us  as  soon  as  you  can,  and 
the  Indians  will  all  thank  you.  I  know  the  Great  Father  wants  to  buy 
our  land  from  us,  but  men  have  gone  in  there  and  stolen  it,  and  I 
don't  think  the  Great  Father  knows  it. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  There  is  another  commission  here  to  talk  about  the 
Black  Hills.  We  have  nothing  to  do  about  that.  You  will  have  to  talk 
with  them  about  it.  What  we  are  here  to  talk  about  is  whether  the 
rations  have  been  good  enough,  and  whether  your  people  have  suffered  ; 
and  if  they  have  we  want  to  know  it. 

Two  STRIKE.  There  has  been  sometimes  for  a  month  that  we  have 
not  had  bacon  at  all.  There  were  several  mouths  too  that  we  had  no 
sugar.  When  you  take  this  to  the  President  you  will  see  some  sense 
in  it,  and  I  would  like  you  to  look  into  it,  and  the  President  will  know 
if  there  is  sense  in  it.  There  have  been  things  said  here  which  were 
taken  away  in  writing,  but  that  is  the  last  we  heard  of  it.  That  is  all 
I  have  to  §ay.  You  good  white  men  who  have  come  here  our  young 
men  will  be  glad  to  see ;  and  even  if  what  you  have  told  us  don't  last 


507 

long,  it  will  make  them  feel  good  for  a  time.  When  are  you  going 
home J? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  are  going  to  Keel  Clond,  Fort  Laramie,  Chey 
enne,  and  then  to  Washington. 

Two  STRIKE.  I  want  to  find  out  who  received  that  money  for  the 
horses.  They  came  here  small  and  wild,  and  I  have  been  told  they  cost 
over  $100.  I  don't  believe  the  kind  of  horses  that  came  here  cost  that 
much,  and  I  want  to  find  out  about  it.  I  want  you  to  find  out  that.  I 
think  we  have  been  cheated  out  of  a  great  deal  of  money  on  them. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  will  try  and  find  out  about  that  for  you. 

Two  STRIKE.  At  the  store  here  they  trade  goods  very  high ;  they 
charge  $15  for  shawls ;  that  is  pretty  hard  on  us,  but  no  one  looks  to 
it.  I  would  like  you  to  look  to  that  for  us.  That  is  all. 

CHARLES  ELLISTON,  (a  white  man.)  I  would  like  permission  to  say  a  few 
things.  I  have  been  here  twenty-six  years  last  July  ;  have  been  about 
Spotted  Tail  ever  since  it  first  started.  I  know  what  has  been  done 
here  at  the  agency  pretty  well. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Do  you  know  of  any  sufferings  among  the  Indians 
for  want  of  food  \ 

Mr.  ELLISTON.  I  do  not,  sir. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Has  the  quality  of  rations  that  have  been  furnished 
here  been  pretty  good  ? 

Mr.  ELLISTON.  The  quality  of  rations  that  have  been  furnished  here 
has  been  good.  My  family  have  drawn  rations,  and  they  have  been  of  a 
good  quality.  The  general  complaint  of  the  Indians  is  that  there  is  not 
enough  rations.  There  was  a  time  last  winter  that  they  suffered  for  want 
of  rations.  I  was  absent  and  did  not  know  it.  The  reason  for  this  suffer 
ing  was  that  the  snow  was  so  deep  that  the  supplies  could  not  be  got 
ten  here.  I  left  here,  going  to  Fort  Randall,  on  the  first  of  January,  and 
was  delayed  until  the  20th  of  April  in  getting  back ;  some  wagons  got 
in  ahead  of  me.  The  wagons  that  were  with  me  hauled  out  sugar,  coffee, 
and  flour  and  corn.  When  this  Treaty  of  1868  was  first  made  at  Fort 
Laramie,  there  were  a  great  many  white  men  living  there,  myself 
among  the  rest.  We  all  had  good  homes  there.  The  Peace  Commis 
sion,  General  Sanborn  and  General  Harney,  (it  was  called  there  a  Peace 
Commission,)  persuaded  us  to  leave  our  homes  and  go  with  the  In 
dians  to  the  Missouri  River,  to  the  old  Whetstone  agency.  They  made 
us  great  promises  that  they  would  give  us  cattle  and  horses  and  farm 
ing  utensils,  and  fix  us  up  so  that  we  could  go  to  farming  in  good  style, 
provided  we  would  use  our  influence  in  getting  the  Indians  to  leave  the 
Xorth  Platte  country  and  go  to  the  Missouri  River.  We  did  so.  Since 
that  time  not  one  of  us  has  ever  received  a  hoof  of  cattle,  nor  a  horse, 
nor  a  wagon  of  any  kind  which  was  promised  us  by  that  commission. 
There  have  been  brought  here  wagons,  horses,  and  cattle,  which  have 
been  given  to  the  Indians,  but  there  has  never  anything  been  given  to 
any  white  man  on  the  reservation  to  my  knowledge.  Now,  we  would 
like  to  know  what  is  to  be  done  about  this. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Was  this  promise  made  by  the  treaty  itself! 

Mr.  ELLISTON.  Yes,  sir.  It  was  promised  us  in  the  treaty,  as  we  un 
derstood  it,  either  by  General  Sanborn  or  General  Harney.  They  sent 
for  us  to  Colorado,  and  they  promised  us  that  if  we  would  use  our  influ 
ence  to  induce  the  Indians  to  go  to  the  Missouri  River,  at  what  is  called 
the  Old  Whetstone  agency,  they  would  give  us  these  things.  ISTow  it 
seems  as  though  we  had  no  rights  on  this  agency.  We  .are  hardly 
allowed  rations  even. 


-  508 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Have  you  not  been  receiving  your  rations  regularly  f 

Mr.  ELLISTON.  Yes,  sir  $  but  there  is  talk  of  having*  them  stopped." 

Mr.  FAULKNER,  Well,  when  they  are  stopped  it  will  be  time  enough 
to  complain. 

Mr.  ELLISTON.  But  about  the  cattle $  how  are  we  going  to  live 
without  these  things J? 

Mr.  HARRIS.  There  are  no  such  provisions  made  in  the  treaty. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Mr.  Elliston,  that  is  a  thing  we  have  nothing  to  do 
with $  but  we  have  taken  your  statement  and  will  inquire  into  it  when 
we  go  back. 

YELLOW  BREAST,  [to  the  Indians  who  had  been  speaking.]  You 
people  here  have  been  talking  like  fools.  Your  talk  has  been  like 
that  of  children.  Y"ou  have  been  abusing  your  agent  here  when  yon 
know  that  he  holds  us  very  dear  and  treats  us  very  well.  Your  talk 
has  been  very  foolish  and  like  children.  You  want  to  throw  away  the 
chiefs  and  the  agent.  We  can  never  get  a  better  man  than  Major  How 
ard.  If  you  were  to  get  an  agent  every  day  you  would  not  get  one  to 
satisfy  all  the  Indians.  Y^ou  are  all  for  the  agent  one  day  and  next  day 
you  are  down  upon  him.  You  will  never  get  a  better  rnjm  than  he  is  to 
deal  with  the  Indians.  He  has  a  strong  heart,  and  if  there  had  been  any 
other  man  in  his  place,  there  would  have  been  trouble  several  times. 

This  closed  the  council.  Spotted  Tail  held  his  peace.  Afterwards, 
however,  Sitting  Bull  came  forward  and  said  to  the  commissioners  that 
Spotted  Tail  had  told  him  to  tell  them  that  he  did  not  want  to  throw 
his  agent  away ;  he  wanted  to  have  him  because  he  had  worked  very 
hard  for  the  Indians  at  his  agency,  and  they  did  not  want  to  make  any 
change  at  all. 

Upon  Sitting  Bull  being  asked  by  the  chairman  why  Spotted  Tail 
had  not  himself  told  the  commissioners  of  this,  he  replied  that  Spotted 
Tail  was  afraid  to  talk  ;  that  his  people  would  not  let  him  say  these 
things.  Sitting  Bull  said  "  These  men  who  have  talked  here  to-day,  and 
want  to  throw  their  agent  and  beef-contractor  away,  are  all  fools. 
The  men  who  have  sense  are  well  satisfied  with  their  agent  and  their 
beef-contractor,  and  they  want  no  other."  He  had  asked  Spotted  Tail  to 
come  over  and  talk  with  the  commissioners  and  Spotted  Tail  had  said  he 
would  come,  but  his  heart  was  very  bad;  yet,  as  soon  as  he  got  his  din 
ner,  he  would  come  over. 


TALK  WITH  SPOTTED  TAIL. 

Accordingly,  soon  after  the  foregoing  conversation  in  the  court -yard 
the  commissioners  had  a  private  interview  with  Spotted  Tail  and  Swift 
Bear,  in  the  presence  of  Agent  Howard,  Eev.  Mr.  Cleveland,  and  Louis 
Bordeaux,  the  latter  acting  as  interpreter. 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  What  the  Indians  said  to-day  was  not  my  wish  at 
all.  As  far  as  I  am  concerned  I  want  to  do  what  is  right  and  live  well. 
Whatever  they  say  about  wrong-doing  I  do  not  know  anything  about. 
If  1  saw  anything  of  that  kind  myself  I  would  say  so,  but  I  do  not  know 
anything  about  it.  The  only  complaint  I  make  is  that  Congress  has  ap 
propriated  too  small  an  amount  of  money  for  us,  and  everything  we  get 
is  very  small.  Whenever  Congress  makes  an  appropriation,  then  Con 
gress  notifies  the  Great  Father  how  much  they  have  appropriated  for 
the  Indians,  and  the  Great  Father  notifies  the  men  who  are  under  him. 
Then  the  amount  that  is  appropriated  is  given  to  the  men  in  charge  of 


509 

the  Indians  at  Washington  to  buy  the  goods  with.  The  next  thing  is 
to  select  the  man  to  buy  the  grub  and  haul  the  freights  on  a  steamboat 
or  the  railroad  to  a  certain  place;  then  the  contractors  bring  the  freight  to 
the  agency  and  deliver  it  to  the  agent.  The  next  is  that  the  Great  Father 
has  selected  you,  my  friends,  to  come  here  to  look  into  the  management 
of  the  agency.  I  suppose  you  heard  something  about  the  stealing  that 
goes  on,  and  that  is  the  reason  you  have  come  out  here.  If  there  was  any 
stealing  done  it  must  have  been  done  in  the  States,  the  things  come 
through  so  many  hands.  The  blankets  we  received  here,  some  of  them 
were  very  bad,  especially  the  green  ones,  and  they  put  brands  on  them. 
That  shows  that  there  are  some  white  men  doing  all  these  things  in  the 
States.  Also  the  bacon,  sugar,  and  coffee  were  very  bad,  but  whoever 
buys  those  things,  he  is  to  blame  for  it,  and  not  the  men  living  at  the 
agency.  My  own  agent  did  not  go  down  to  buy  those  things.  The  peo 
ple  in  the  States  buy  them  and  send  them  out  hereto  him.  I  want  you  to 
tell  the  Great  Father  and  also  to  tell  Congress  to  increase  my  ra 
tions  from  this  time  forward.  If  they  do  that  I  will  be  very  thankful 
for  it.  A  great  many  of  the  words  that  were  uttered  to-day  were  very 
bad.  I  do  not  call  them  words  at  all.  To-day  they  said  they  had  dis 
missed  me  and  Swift  Bear,  who  is  one  of  the  principal  men.  They  said 
we  do  not  amount  to  anything.  Well,  if  so,  who  is  going  to  do  the  busi 
ness  for  them  ?  That  is  only  their  jealous  talk. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  your  agent  with 
holds  from  you  any  of  those  supplies  that  are  sent  by  the  Government  to 
you  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  I  belive  this:  The  Great  Father  told  me  that  he 
will  feed  me  with  a  certain  amount  of  rations.  I  know  my  time  has 
passed  over  a  year  now,  that  he  has  given  us  rations  two  years  for  noth 
ing  ;  that  Congress  has  made  appropriations  to  give  rations  for  two 
years  for  nothing  now.  That  is  as  the  Great  Father  told  me  when  I  was 
there.  The  reason  why  I  did  not  receive  the  rations  in  time  last  winter 
was  on  account  of  the  storm  when  they  had  to  haul  them  from  Fort 
Randall,  and  it  was  impossible  to  haul  the  freight  in  time  on  account  of 
the  weather. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Did  the  agent  steal  any  of  your  rations  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  it,  and  if  I  knew  he 
stole  anything  I  would  tell  of  it.  The  rations  were  looked  after  down 
at  the  Missouri  River,  and  if  I  knew  anything  had  been  taken  I  would 
tell  you  so.  When  they  were  delivered  here  the  agent  did  not  have  a 
chance  to  steal  any  of  them,  because  the  Indians  took  them  so  quickly. 
If  the  freight  from  this  time  on  is  delivered  in  time  we  won't  be  out  of 
rations  in  the  winter. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Were  the  beef-cattle  you  got  small  and  poor  9 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  Of  course  we  received  the  cattle  the  year  round,  and 
some  of  the  cows  are  bound  to  make  a  calf;  there  are  some  calves 
among  them. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Did  Good  Hawk,  in  the  statements  that  he  made  to 
the  commission,  speak  the  views  and  sentiments  of  your  tribe  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  I  told  you  before,  and  you  have  got  it  down,  that  he 
did  not. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  Did  he  speak  true  or  false  I 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  You  heard  his  speech,  and  any  man  who  has  his  senses 
about  him  can  judge  for  himself. 

SWIFT  BEAR.  That  fellow  [Good  Hawk]  never  made  a  speech  to  the 
whites  before,  and  what  he  says  is  a  lie. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  When  false  statements  or  lies  of  that  kind  are  openly 


510 

proclaimed  before  the  whole  body  of  chiefs,  is  it  not  your  duty  to  have 
them  corrected  before  the  same  persons  to  whom  they  were  addressed  I 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  The  Indians  won't  allow  me  to  speak,  and  if  you  were 
in  my  place  you  would  not  speak  if  they  did  not  want  you  to.  I  under 
stood  you  called  me  here  to  talk,  and  I  was  very  much  disappointed  to 
see  that  there  were  so  many  Indians  here.  It  was  not  intended,  and  I 
looked  at  it  with  my  eyes  shut.  I  did  not  pay  any  attention  to  what 
they  said. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Are  Good  Hawk  and  Baptiste  Good  chiefs  or  head 
men  among  the  tribe  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  Baptiste  and  the  other  one  used  to  be  chiefs  of  the 
Brules,  but  they  are  not  now. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Do  all  the  Brules  listen  to  what  Good  Hawk  and 
Baptiste  Good  say  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  Of  course  they  hear  it  because  the}7  are  men  who  have 
ears  to  hear.  I  think  the  other  people  advise  them  to  talk  that  way. 

SWIFT  BEAR.  I  thought  the  white  men  had  good  sense  and  were  shrewd 
to  understand.  They  ought  to  judge  for  themselves  from  those  men's 
speeches  to-day  what  they  were  trying  to  get  at.  Like  all  other  persons, 
they  sometimes  talk  jealously. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  think  we  understand  it  well,  but  we  only  wanted 
to  be  sure  that  we  understood  it  right.  [To  Spotted  Tail.]  When  the 
Brules  get  in  big  trouble,  then  who  do  they  want  to  speak  for  them  ? 

Spotted  Tail  smiled,  making  no  reply;  but  Swift  Bear,  speaking  for 
him,  said  :  "  It  is  not  Baptiste  Good  nor  Good  Hawk.'7 


FORT  LARAMIE,  W.  T., 

Friday,  August  20,  1875. 

Present:  Hon. THOMAS C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CAPT.  JOHN  MIX. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  and  position  in  the  Army  ? 

Answer.  I  am  captain  in  the  Second  Cavalry. 

Q.  I  wish  you  to  state  if  you  recollect  of  Eed  Cloud  and  Bed  Dog 
giving  some  samples  of  rations  to  Professor  Marsh  some  time  last  No 
vember  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  On  the  morning  of  the  10th  of  November  Eed  Cloud 
and  Eed  Dog,  in  company  with  some  other  Indians,  came  to  our  camp, 
and  gave  Professor  Marsh  some  samples  of  sugar,  coffee,  and  tobacco. 
These  samples  were  given  to  the  Professor  in  consequence  of  a  sugges 
tion  of  mine  made  the  previous  day. 

Q.  Did  you  at  that  time,  or  at  any  other  time,  see  the  rations  that 
were  issued  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  I  went  into  quite  a  number  of  lodges,  certainly  over  a  dozen,  prob 
ably  twenty,  and  examined  the  rations  that  had  been  issued  to  the  In 
dians.  I  did  not  go  to  Eed  Cloud's  at  that  time.  It  was  too  far  oif. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  samples  ? 

A.  I  examined  the  rations  they  then  had  on  hand,  and  which  were 
issued  to  them  two  or  three  days  before. 


511 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  samples  which  were  given  to  Professor  Marsh 
by  Bed  Cloud? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  examined  those  very  carefully. 

Q.  Were  they  fair  samples  of  the  rations  you  saw  in  the  tepees  of  the 
Indians  ? 

A.  I  could  see  no  difference  between  them,  sir.  In  one  tepee  I  found 
a  very  fair  article  of  sugar,  which  the  Indian  told  me  he  had  bought 
from  the  trader,  Mr.  Deer.  He  also  had  some  poor  sugar  which  he  said 
he  had  got  from  the  agent. 

Q.  The  sugar  which  they  had  received  as  rations,  was  it  unfit  for 
use? 

A.  Well,  I  should  call  it  the  very  lowest  grade  that  could  be  pur 
chased  in  the  market.  I  have  never  seen  as  poor  sugar  in  the  market, 
and  I  should  certainly  consider  it  the  very  poorest  that  could  be  pur 
chased  in  the  market. 

Q.  Could  you  say  that  the  quality  was  such  that  it  was  unfit  for  any 
use,  and  unwholesome? 

A.  Well,  I  hardly  believe  that  the  adulteration  that  is  put  into  sugar 
would  make  it  unfit.  This  was  dark,  dirty,  and  damp.  1  would  not  say 
it  was  unwholesome,  but  I  would  think  that  no  civilized  being  would 
want  to  use  it.  I  could  not  say  there  was  any  sand  in  it.  I  felt  it, 
but  could  detect  no  sand  in  it. 

Q.  What  about  the  coffee  ? 

A.  I  am  satisfied,  sir,  that  the  coffee  cannot  be  purchased  in  any  mar 
ket.  I  remarked  at  the  time,  and  it  is  still  my  opinion,  that  it  is  the 
screenings  of  Eio  coffee;  and  I  think  it  was  purchased  specially  for  this 
market.  The  samples  I  saw  in  the  lodges  were  composed  of  imperfect 
grains  and  wilted  grains  and  dark-colored  grains.  In  the  coffee  which 
we  get  here  for  the  Army  there  are  some  imperfect  grains,  but  there 
seemed  to  be  no  perfect  grains  in  all  the  coffee  I  examined. 

Q.  Can  you  form  any  estimate  of  the  quantity  you  examined  ? 

A.  I  suppose  it  was  at  least  from  50  to  75  pounds  the  total  of  the  dif 
ferent  packages. 

Q.  About  how  much  should  you  suppose  was  the  greatest  quantity 
you  saw  in  any  one  package  I 

A.  About  four  pounds,  in  a  squaw-man's  lodge.  He  told  ine  there 
were  about  four  pounds  when  he  received  it,  but  he  had  used  it  once  or 
twice. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  examine  any  of  the  flour  which  was  issued  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  complaints  about  the  flour  there  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  did,  at  my  tent,  where  the  first  interview  with  Professor  Marsh 
was  held.  The  Indians  were  complaining  in  a  general  way  of  the  flour. 
I  asked  Bed  Dog  why  he  did  not  bring  us  a  sample,  but  I  have  forgot 
ten  what  his  reply  was. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  tobacco  they -were  issuing? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  appearance  of  that  ? 

A.  My  remark  about  the  coffee  will  also  apply  to  the  tobacco.  My 
opinion  is  that  it  was  put  up  expressly  for  that  market.  It  was  full  of 
steins  and  coarse  leaves,  and  manufactured  with  molasses  or  some  other 
sticky  substance,  which  made  it  so  moist  that  you  could  not  smoke  it, 
which  is  the  only  way  that  the  Indians  use  tobacco. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  any  other  sample  of  tobacco,  besides  that  which 
was  given  to  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  I  did,  sir. 


512 

Q.  Did  it  appear  to  be  about  tbe  same  quality  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  consider  that  tobacco  utterly  unfit  for  smoking  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  or  for  any  other  use. 

Q.  You  saWj  on  one  occasion,  some  seven  head  of  cattle,  which  you 
state  was  the  remnant  of  a  herd  that  was  shown  you  by  Red  Cloud, 
as  Laving  been  issued  to  his  people  by  the  agent.  Bid  you  mean  by 
that  that  those  seven  cattle  had  been  issued  to  the  Indians  by  the 
agent,  or  that  they  were  the  remains  of  a  herd  which  had  been  issued  ? 

A.  Well,  our  understanding  was  that  they  were  the  cattle  which  had 
been  received  by  the  agent,  but  were  in  excess  of  the  issue,  and  re 
mained  with  the  agent  to  be  issued  with  the  next  issue.  I  was  so  in 
formed. 

Q.  Then  they  had  not  been  issued  to  the  Indians  by  the  agent  when 
you  saw  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  but  they  were  issued  as  we  returned  from  Spotted  Tail. 
I  was  there  when  they  were  issued.  I  recognized  three  or  four  of  them, 
but  in  the  hurry  and  confusion  of  the  issue  I  could  not  see  them  all.  I 
recognized  three  for  certain,  but  am  not  certain  of  four.  I  saw  other 
cattle  issued  to  the  Indians  also- 

Q.  How  did  they  compare  with  the  seven  head? 

A.  I  think  the  seven  head  were  fully  up  to  the  average  of  the  herd 
which  I  saw  issued.  I  should  explain  to  the  commission  that  the  esti 
mate  which  we  made  there  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle  was  an  estimate 
of  their  net  weight.  But  Mr.  Hay  thought  we  were  estimating  on  the 
gross  weight,  and  his  figures  were  not  changed,  because  we  thought  the 
matter  might  be  inquired  into  and  it  would  not  look  well  to  change 
the  figures.  For  this  reason  the  average  net  weight  wras  increased 
about  30  pounds,  I  think  ;  and,  therefore,  this  average  we  made  of  358 
pounds  was  the  net  weight,  and  not  the  gross  weight. 

Q.  HOWT  many  cattle  did  you  see  issued  ? 

A.  I  could  not  give  the  number,  but  an  employe  told  me  that  they 
were  issuing  255,  but  they  were  driven  out  so  rapidly  I  could  not  see 
them  issued.  I  did  not  wish  to  appear  to  be  interested  much  in  Dr. 
Saville's  affairs.  I  just  happened  to  come  along,  and  saw  them.  I 
thought  the  Doctor  did  not  like  to  have  Army  officers  around.  The  issue 
was  on  the  14th  of  November. 

Q.  The  cattle  that  you  saw  issued  that  day,  I  understand  you  to  say 
that  these  seven  head  of  cattle  would  be  a  fair  average  of  the  whole  of 
them  ? 

A.  Yes.  sir  ;  I  should  consider  them  so.     They  were  very  poor. 

Q.  Were  they  chiefly  steers  or  cows? 

A.  I  should  think  that  they  were  evenly  mixed,  heifers  and  steers,  but 
that  is  a  matter  of  guess-work.  Some  of  the  cattle  were  exceedingly 
young;  many  of  them  one  year  old,  and  I  did  not  think  any  of  the 
heifers  I  noticed  wrere  over  two  years  old. 

Q.  Did  there  remain  some  cattle  that  were  not  issued  with  the  herd? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  very  few  ;  eight  or  ten  head,  probably. 

Q.  Of  those  seven  head  of  cattle  which  you  noticed  particularly,  and 
which  you  mention  in  this  certificate,  do  you  remember  what  kind  of 
cattle  they  were ;  steers,  cows,  or  yearlings  ? 

A.  There  were  two  yearlings,  tLat  is,  they  were  then  about  one  and 
one-half  years  old,  and  there  was  one  two  and  a  half  years  old,  and  the 
rest  were  from  four  to  five  years  old. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here? 

A.  I  have  been  here  since  the  war  about  one  year.    Before  the  war 


513 

I  served  some  time  here.     Before  the  war  there  were  but  very  few  cat 
tle  grazed  here,  and  that  was  only  a  few  for  the  use  of  emigrants. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  that  you  have  been  up  in  this  country  north  of 
the  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  this  last  time,  about  a  year? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  at  this  post.  All  my  service  since  1860  has  been  along 
the  line  of  the  road. 

Q.  Then  of  your  observation  of  the  cattle  in  this  section  of  the  country, 
are  they  not  usually  in  good  order  at  this  time  of  the  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  except  those  which  are  driven  from  Texas  that  year ;  but 
cattle  that  have  remained  here  over  the  season  are  generally  in  good 
order  in  November.  Of  course  some  of  them  are  poor,  but  the  great 
bulk  of  them  are  in  good  order. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  herds  of  cattle  designed  for  the  Indian 
agencies,  before  or  after  they  were  driven  to  the  agencies,  except  those 
which  you  have  mentioned? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  had  experience  which  would  enable  you  to  judge  of  the 
average  weight  of  Texas  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  dealt  in  them,  and  in  my  official  position  have 
had  occasion  to  weigh  them,  and  1  could  form  a  pretty  good  idea  of 
their  weight. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  give  us  your  general  average  of  these  Texas 
cattle  ? 

A.  Well,  without  knowing  the  ages  of  the  cattle  which  these  people 
are  required  to  furnish  I  could  not  give  the  average ;  but  if  you  will 
give  me  the  age  of  the  cattle  they  are  required  to  furnish,  I  could  give 
a  pretty  good  estimate. 

Q.  Well,  say  they  were  steers  four  years  old  and  upward  ? 

A.  In  November,  cattle  which  have  not  been  driven  that  year  should 
weigh  about  1,100  pounds  gross,  and  should  dress  about  675  pounds. 
We  allow- in  the  service,  on  cattle  that  weigh  1,000  pounds  50  per  cent., 
(that  is,  they  will  net  one-half)  and  cattle  over  1,400  pounds  we  allow 
60  per  cent. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  weight  of  Texas  cows  ? 

A.  A  cow  four  years  old  and  upward  would  not  average,  perhaps, 
over  850  pounds. 

Q.  Now,  captain,  you  have  seen  a  good  many  herds  of  Texas  cattle  in 
this  country  as  they  come  from  Texas  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  take  these  herds  generally,  and  what  will  they  average  all 
round,  grown  cattle  ? 

A.  Well,  when  they  reach  here  they  are  poor,  but  cattle  brought  here  in 
the  spring  would  average  in  the  fall  about  15  per  cent,  below  the  other 
average.  They  are  not  fit  for  use  when  they  first  come,  but  they  would 
average  from  850  to  1,100  pounds. 

Q.  In  the  herds  that  you  have  seen  in  this  country,  did  you  notice 
that  there  were  many  yearlings  and  two-year-old  heifers  among  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  is  not  customary  to  bring  that  class  of  animals. 

Q.  What  is  the  character  of  the  majority  of  the  cattle  which  compose 
the  herds  they  bring  from  Texas? 

A.  I  think  they  are  about  halt'  steersand  half  cows;  by  steers,  I  mean 
three  years  old  and  upward. 

Q.  About  what  proportion  of  three-year-old  steers  are  there  in  the 
herds  ? 

A.  About  15  or  20  per   cent,  of  the  whole  herd,  as  they  come  along. 
Some  drive  entirely  cows  for  stock-raising  purposes,  and  some  drive  en- 
33  I  F 


514 

tirely  steers  for  work-cattle  and  for  beef.  There  are  three  objects  for 
bringing  cattle  here  :  one  is  for  stock  raising,  one  is  for  beef,  and  one  is 
for  work -cattle. 

Q.  What  about  the  herds  that  are  brought  especially  for  beef? 

A.  They  are  principally  steers,  four  years  old  and  upward,  with 
some  cows  mixed  up  with  them.  Drovers  have  three  objects  in  purchas 
ing  Texas  cattle:  1st,  for  stock-raising,  and  for  which  they  purchase 
principally  cows  ;  2d,  for  work-cattle,  principally  steers,  three  years  old 
and  upward;  3d,  for  beef,  which  are  steers,  four  years  old  and  up 
ward. 

Q.  What  would  be  your  average  of  the  four-year-old  steers  sent  here 
for  beef? 

A.  Well,  when  they  are  sent  for  beef,  they  should  weigh  1,100  pounds 
and  upward. 

Q.  Now,  captain,  do  they  drive  herds  of  Texas  cattle  up  here  in  the 
fall ! 

A.  No,  sir,  seldom  in  the  fall;  they  generally  bring  them  up  here  in 
the  spring;  they  generally  get  here  about  the  1st  of  August. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  men  who  breed  cattle  in  Texas  for  sale, 
or  who  drive  them  up  into  this  country  for  sale,  desire  to  dispose  of 
yearlings  and  two-year-olds? 

A.  I  do  not,  sir;  my  experience  is  that  they  do  not  wish  to  sell  one 
and  two  year  olds,  but  they  prefer  to  keep  them,  because  it  costs  nothing 
to  keep  them  until  they  are  four  years  old.  There  are  a  great  many  of 
that  class  of  cattle  in  this  country,  which  are  raised  here,  and  my  ob 
servation  is,  that  you  can  buy  a  three-year-old  as  cheap  as  you  can  a 
two-year  old,  the  reason  being  that  they  can  keep  it  another  year  at  no 
expense. 

Q.  You  have  read  this  pamphlet  of  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  information  that  you  can  give  us  in  reference  to 
any  other  matters  contained  in  these  charges  of  Professor  Marsh's,  about 
which  we  have  not  inquired  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  think  not.  In  regard  to  that  issue  of  annuity-goods,  I 
was  not  present.  I  believe  you  have  covered  everything  in  your  ques 
tions. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  frauds  or  instances  of  mismanagement  on  the 
part  of  any  Indian  agent,  or  contractor  for  supplies  or  transportation, 
about  which  you  can  give  us  any  information,  or  are  there  any  other 
persons  to  whom  you  can  refer  us  for  information? 

A.  I  visited  Eed  Cloud  agency,  at  the  request  of  some  Indians  with 
whom  I  was  acquainted,  on  the  16th  of  July,  1874,  and  at  that  time  no 
sugar  or  coffee  had  been  issued  for  forty  days,  and  there  had  not  been 
an  issue  of  beef  for  some  time  before,  until  the  date  of  my  arrival  there. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  anything  of  the  cause  of  the  failure  to  issue  the 
supplies'? 

A.  They  had  no  supplies  on  hand,  I  was  informed.  As  I  returned, 
here,  I  met  a  train  with  sugar  and  coffee  on  it  for  the  agency. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  Lieutenant,  I  would  like  to  inquire  of  you,  what  caused  you  to 
make  that  suggestion  to  Professor  Marsh  which  you  did,  in  getting  Keel 
Cloud  to  procure  for  the  Professor  those  samples  of  coffee,  sugar,  and 
tobacco? 

A.  It  was  in  consequence  of  the  Indians'  complaint  of  the  qual 
ity  of  those  articles  which  they  were  using.  The  complaint,  as 


515 

made  by  the  Indians,  was  that  the  supplies  issued  were  insufficient  in 
quantity  and  of  an  inferior  quality.  Red  Cloud  told  rne  that  he  believed 
his  people  were  dying  from  eating  the  pork  ;  but  that  I  did  not  see,  and 
consequently  I  knew  nothing  of  the  quantity  or  quality  of  the  pork  is 
sued. 

Q.  Are  you  satisfied  that  in  the  examination  of  those  samples  which 
you  made  in  the  tepees,  that  they  were  presented  to  you  under  circum 
stances  that  satisfied  your  mind,  at  least,  that  they  were  fair  samples  of 
the  rations  which  had  been  issued  to  them  by  the  agent  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  lam  satisfied  that  they  were  presented  under  such  cir 
cumstances.  I  went  to  tepees,  where  I  was  not  expected,  and  got  those 
samples  from  the  sacks  as  they  were  delivered  from  the  agency.  This 
was  in  November,  at  the  time  Professor  Marsh  was  up  therewith  Gene 
ral  Bradley. 

Q.  You  said  that  upon  your  return  from  Spotted  Tail  agency, 
there  was  an  issue  of  beef  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  it  was  on  the  14th  of  November,  I  think.  I  am  not  quite 
certain  of  the  date,  because  we  spent  one  or  two  days  there. 

Q.  Was  Professor  Marsh  there  at  the  time  ? 

A.  I  think  he  was  there,  but  I  did  not  meet  him. 

Q.  Are  you  satisfied  that  these  seven  cattle  which  have  been  the  sub 
ject  of  inquiry  were  included  in  the  general  issue  of  cattle  that  took  place 
on  the  14th  of  November,  1874  ? 

A.  I  know  that  three  or  four  of  them  were,  but  the  others  I  know 
nothing  about. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  These  three  or  four  cattle  that  you  speak  of,  did  you  see  them, 
turned  out  to  the  Indians  and  killed  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  them  killed,  but  recognized  them  in  the  general  herd. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Where  were  they  when  you  saw  them  ? 

A.  They  were  at  the  herder's  camp,  a  few  miles  above  the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  willing  to  swear  that  you  saw  three  or  four  cattle  issued 
from  the  corral  which  you  had  seen  at  the  herd? 

A.  I  could  swear  that  three  or  four  that  I  had  seen  at  the  herd  were 
the  same  that  were  issued  from  the  corral. 

Q.  What  kind  of  weather  was  it  when  they  were  issued '? 

A.  It  was  snowing,  and  very  cold. 

Q.  Were  the  cattle  you  speak  of  being  weighed  on  the  day  you  saw 
them? 

A.  Eed  Cloud  asked  us  to  go  and  see  the  cattle,  and  report  to  the 
Great  Father  about  them.  It  would  be  too  troublesome  for  us  to  go  to 
the  scales  that  day.  The  cattle  were  lost  on  the  prairie,  and  they  were 
driven  up  by  the  herders  for  us  to  examine. 

Q.  I  want  to  know — this  is  but  simple  justice  to  everybody — what 
means  of  judging  you  had  that  the  seven  head  would  average  350  pounds. 
How  far  did  you  examine  the  herd,  and  how  well  qualified  are  you  to 
venture  that  opinion? 

A.  Well,  it  was  a  casual  observation. 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  the  cattle  had  been  driven  up  from  the  Nio- 
brara  through  a  very  severe  snow-storm  I 

A.  I  knew  nothing  about  the  cattle  being  driven  from  the  Niobrara, 
and  did  not  judge  of  them  in  that  respect. 

Q.  You  say  all  the  coffee  was  of  shriveled,  and  broken,  and  unsound 
kernels  ? 


516 

A.  No,  sir.  I  say  in  all,  75  pounds;  I  examined  between  12  and  20 
pounds.  I  did  not  see  any  sound  or  good  coffee.  Professor  Marsh  did 
not  take  over  two  or  three  tablespoonsful. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  other  samples  which  you  speak  of? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  cattle  driven  here  to  the  military  post,  which  do  you  have 
the  most  of,  cows  or  steers  ? 

A.  Wholly  steers.  The  contract  compels  them  to  be  all  steers.  I  do 
not  know  the  average  weight  of  the  steers  driven  here. 

Q.  You  suggest  that  sand  is  the  means  of  adulterating  sugar.  Should 
you  judge  that  it  would  pay  any  one  to  adulterate  that  quality  of  sugar! 

A.  I  don't  knowr,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  go  on  record  as  saying  that  the  sugar  was  filthy 
and  unfit  for  use  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do.  I  did  not  taste  the  sugar ;  I  felt  it  with  my  hand, 
and  know  that  there  was  sand  in  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  inducement  offered  by  Professor  Marsh,  or  rather 
what  inducement  led  Professor  Marsh  to  hear  this  story  concerning 
these  things  ? 

A.  Well,  he  told  me  that  he  was  a  friend  of  Commissioner  Smith,  and 
the  Commissioner  told  him  to  notice  anything  while  he  was  out  among 
the  Indians,  and  to  inform  him  if  anything  was  wrong.  I  think  Pro 
fessor  Marsh's  idea  was,  that  by  showing  an  interest  in  these  things,  it 
would  facilitate  his  work  up  in  the  bone-field.  That  is,  however,  a  mat 
ter  of  opinion  with  me  only.  Bed  Cloud  came  to  me  first  and  wanted 
to  see  General  Bradley,  but  General  Bradley  said  it  was  none  of  his 
business,  and  he  would  not  see  him.  Red  Cloud  brought  a  small  quan 
tity  of  sugar  and  one  plug  of  tobacco.  I  saw  samples  like  those  which 
lied  Cloud  had,  in  the  hands  of  other  Indians,  and  they  appeared  to  be 
of  the  same  quality  of  rations. 

By  Mr.  ATHEKON  : 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  Indians  not  having  sugar  and  coffee  for  forty 
days.  How  did  you  ascertain  that  ! 

A.  I  was  told  so  by  thirty  or  forty  Indians.  I  was  also  told  by  officers 
at  the  post  that  unless  supplies  were  brought  soon  they  wrere  afraid 
of  trouble.  I  employed  no  means  of  verifying  it,  except  by  different 
ones  whom  I  met  during  the  day,  and  they  all  made  the  same  answer. 
I  think  that  some  officers  at  the  post  told  me  that  it  was  forty  days.  I 
did  not  visit  the  agency,  and  did  not  get  this  information  from  any  of 
the  employes  at  the  agency,  for  I  was  not  there. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  said  that  you  did  not  go  there,  or  did  not  feel  willing,  because 
you  thought  that  Dr.  Saville  did  not  like  to  have  Army  officers  around. 
How  did  you  obtain  this  information  ? 

A.  It  was  from  the  officers  and  my  own  supposition.  I  have  had  no 
altercation  with  Dr.  Saville.  I  have  been  introduced  to  him  once  or 
twice. 

Q.  Is  it  the  general  impression  at  the  post  that  Dr.  Saville  is  not 
friendly  to  the  Army  officers  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  my  opinion,  and  the  opinion  of  others  I  have  con 
versed  with. 


517 


TESTIMONY  OF  MAJOR  A.  S.  BUKT. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  You  belong  to  the  Ninth  Infantry,  I  believe! 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Major,  were  you  present  at  the  issue  of  cattle  by  the  Indian  agent 
at  Keel  Cloud  agency  on  the  14th  of  November  last  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  the  date,  sir ;  but  I  was  present  at  an  issue  of  cat 
tle  by  Dr.  Saville  in  November  last.  Professor  Marsh  was  with  me. 
He  rode  down  there  with  me. 

Q.  There  is  a  certificate  made  by  you,  in  which  you  state  that  the 
cattle  you  saw  at  that  time  were  Texas  cattle,  miserably  poor,  some  of 
them  so  weak  the  Indians  could  not  goad  them  out  of  a  walk,  and  the 
cattle  were,  as  a  rule,  small  in  size, 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  remember  such  a  cirtificate  as  that. 

Q.  Can  you  form  any  estimate  of  the  number  of  cattle  in  the  herd  f 

A.  No,  sir.  The  corral  was  full ;  there  was  barely  room  for  a  man  to 
go  round  and  drive  them  out  when  they  issued  them.  I  don't  know  how 
.many,  but  enough  to  make  an  issue  at  that  agency.  I  don't  know  any 
thing  about  the  number  so  as  to  fix  my  mind.  I  was  not  there  as  an 
investigating  committee,  but  simply  went  with  Professor  Marsh  to  see 
the  issue,  as  to  how  it  was  done.  I  did  not  fix  in  my  mind  any  number, 
but  remember  the  condition  of  the  cattle  was  poor. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  that  they  were  in  miserable  condi 
tion  ? 

A.  I  mean  that  they  were  walking  skin  and  bones.  This  observation 
applies  to  them  generally.  I  could  not  say  that  everyone  was  skin  and 
bones ;  but  my  general  observation  of  the  cattle  was  that  they  were 
mere  skin  and  bones;  that  is,  very  poor. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  the  majority  were  steers,  or  cows? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  could  not  tell  whether  they  were  or  not. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  of  them  being  so  weak  that  the  Indians  could 
not  run  them.  About  how  many  did  you  observe  in  that  condition  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  ;  but  that  fact  impressed  itself  upon  my  mind,  be 
cause,  as  you  remember,  the  Indians  slaughter  most  of  their  cattle  on 
the  ground,  and  they  drive  them  out;  and  in  order  to  get  them  to  run 
they  would  start  them  with  their  goads ;  and  in  several  cases  they  could 
not  make  the  cattle  go  out  of  a  walk,  and  the  impression  on  my  mind 
was  that  it  was  because  they  were  so  poor.  I  could  not  say  how  many 
cases  of  this  kind  there  were.  I  could  not  fix  any  number. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  far  these  cattle  had  been  driven  the  day  before 
the  issue  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  anything  about  these  cattle,  except  that  I 
went  there  with  Professor  Marsh,  simpty  to  see  them.  I  did  not  know 
how  long  they  had  been  without  food  and  water.  The  weather  was  not 
very  severe  ;  that  is,  if  you  mean  for  the  cattle.  There  was  no  snow  on 
the  ground  that  day.  There  might  have  been  snow  in  the  gullies. 

Q.  Had  it  not  been  snowing  or  raining  for  one  or  two  days  before  ? 

A.  It  could  not  have  been  bad  weather,  or  I  would  have  noticed  it,  as  I 
was  in  tents.  I  did  not  see  these  cattle  weighed  ;  I  don't  know  whether 
they  were  weighed;  I  noticed  no  scales  at  the  corral  for  weighing  cat 
tle. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  form  any  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  the 
cattle  you  saw  there  that  clay  ?" 

A.  No,  sir;   1  cannot.     Nobody  can  do  that  unless  he  weighed  the 


518 

cattle;  I  did  not  do  that.  I  might  make  a  guess  like  anybody  else 
would  do  if  they  did  not  weigh  them,  but  it  would  be  only  an  approxi 
mation. 

Q.  Were  those  cattle,  or  any  number  of  them,  smaller  than  Texas  cat 
tle  usally  are  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  were  small-sized  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  many  yearlings  among  them  I 

A.  I  am  not  able  to  tell  that,  sir. 

Q.  Bid  you  hear  any  conversation  between  Mr.  Bosler  and  Professor 
Marsh  in  reference  to  the  condition  of  the  catttle  ? 

WITNESS.  Who  is  Mr.  Bosler  ? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Mr.  Bosler  is  the  contractor  for  furnishing  beef. 

WITNESS.  No,  sir;  not  that  I  remember.  A  Mr.  Bosler,  a  young  fel 
low,  came  to  me  one  day  after  General  Bradley  and  Professor  Marsh 
had  been  to  see  some  cattle  which  had  been  complained  about,  and  said 
that  he  knew  all  about  this  thing  of  cattle,  and  said  if  he  had  known 
about  it  he  would  have  had  some  better  cattle  for  them  to  inspect. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  herd  of  cattle  which  you  ever  saw  issued  to  the 
Indians  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  herd  of  cattle  held  by  the  agent  for  issue 
to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  herds  that  the  contractor  had  for  delivery 
to  the  Indian  agent  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  never  had  occasion  to  inspect  or  look  at  them.  I 
have  never  come  in  contact  with  the  agent  or  contractor. 

Q.  Have  you  observed  frequent  herds  of  Texas  cattle  in  this  country? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  a  good  deal  of  Texas  cattle. 

Q.  How  did  the  cattle  that  you  saw  issued  on  that  occasion  compare 
with  the  ordinary  herds  of  Texas  cattle  in  this  country  ? 

A.  Oh,  very  inferior;  they  were  simply  a  bad  lot  of  cattle,  poor  and 
unfit  for  use.  If  they  were  given  to  me  to  issue  to  my  company,  I  would 
not  accept  such  cattle.  They  were  not  beef  at  all. 

Q.  Then  do  you  say  that  among  all  the  herds  of  Texas  cattle  that  you 
have  seen  in  this  country  this  was  the  poorest  lot  that  you  ever  saw  f 

A.  Well,  it  was  certainly  as  poor  a  lot  as  I  ever  saw. 

Q.  Major,  have  you  read  these  charges  of  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet? 

A.  Portions  of  it  only.     I  glanced  over  it  last  night. 

Q.  You  know  the  object  of  the  inquiries  of  this  commission.  Are  there 
any  other  matters  about  which  you  can  give  us  information  besides  these 
about  which  I  have  inquired  of  you  1 

A.  Well,  I  have  heard  complaints  by  Indians.  That  is  about  all. 
When  I  was  at  Red  Cloud  agency  with  Professor  Marsh,  I  was  not  there 
to  inquire  into  irregularities,  or  I  might  have  inquired  more  into  these 
things.  The  complaints  of  the  Indians  were  about  the  quantity  and 
quality  of  their  rations  and  about  their  agent.  Rib,  an  Indian,  spoke 
about  the  personal  character  of  their  agent. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  his  agent  ? 

A.  He  complained,  in  the  first  place,  of  the  want  of  brains  on  the  part  of 
the  agent,  or,  to  use  his  own  meaning,  he  said  his  forehead  was  small, 
and  that  he  was  not  an  honest  man,  because  he  would  not  look  right  at 
you  in  the  eye.  And  he  went  on  to  say  in  regard  to  the  issue  of  annuity- 
goods  to  the  Indians — I  don't  remember  what  he  said  now.  Sometimes 
Indians  are  not  reliable.  I  have  known  a  few  whose  word  was  as  good 
as  any  white  man's,  but  Rib  I  did  not  know,  and  would  not  vouch  for 


519 

his  reliability.  White  Tail  complained  to  me  out  in  the  Bad  Lands,  after 
we  got  there  with  the  Professor,  about  the  issue,  in  a  manner  that  I 
should  judge  to  be  true.  He  was  sitting  in  my  tent,  and  I  gave  him  some 
crackers,  and  he  gave  them  to  his  children ;  he  bad  two  or  three  with  him. 
I  sent  and  got  some  more,  and  he  put  them  into  his  blanket.  I  asked  him 
why  he  did  not  eat  them  himself,  and  he  said  that  he  wanted  to  take 
them  to  his  squaw  as  she  was  hungry,  and  was  not  getting  sufficient 
rations.  I  noticed  his  blanket  as  being  an  old  one.  I  asked  him  the 
reason  why  he  was  wearing  an  old  blanket  right  after  the  issue,  and  he 
said  that  he  had  given  all  that  had  been  given  him  to  bis  young  men 
and  people;  that  there  was  not  enough  to  go  around.  He  spoke  in  a 
manner  which  impressed  me  that  he  was  telling  the  truth.  That  is 
about  in  substance  all  that  I  know.  The  Indians'  complaints  were  so 
many,  that  I  do  not  remember  half  of  them.  These  things  are  not  my 
business,  and  I  did  not  pay  much  attention  to  them.  Professor  Marsh 
at  that  time  was  hunting  these  things  out,  so  that  he  could  do  the  In 
dians  some  good  through  his  acquaintance  with  Commissioner  Smith. 
What  he  was  doing  was  for  the  benefit  of  the  Indians;  and  he  wanted 
to  advise  the  Interior  Department  of  irregularities  of  which  they  were 
not  aware.  That  is  my  impression,  from  the  general  remarks  of  the 
Professor. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  inferred  that,  if  it  were  true  that  there  were  not  enough  goods 
to  go  around,  as  the  Indians  said,  there  was  fraud  or  some  wrong  done 
the  Indians  ? 

A.  That  was  not  exactly  my  inference.  My  conversation  with  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  was  general,  and  I  didn't  know  his  opinions. 

Q.  When  White  Tail  told  you  he  was  hungry,  and  there  were  not 
enough  goods  to  go  around,  what  were  your  inferences  ? 

A.  Well,  the  inference  that  I  drew  was,  that  there  had  been  enough 
goods  to  go  around,  but  as  to  whose  fault  it  was  I  had  no  inference. 

Q.  The  question  was  not  raised  as  to  whether  the  Government  fur 
nished  enough  or  whether  the  deficiency  was  merely  a  wrong  on  the 
part  of  the  agent  ? 

A.  2s~ot  as  I  remember,  sir.  I  was  paying  more  attention  to  the  bones 
than  to  the  irregularities  at  lied  Cloud.  I  have  never  seen  any  other 
herds  of  cattle  than  those  issued  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency.  I  have 
had  no  other  experience  than  that  which  an  Army  officer  can  have  at  a 
military  post.  I  must  say  that  I  could  not  tell  a  yearling  from  a  two- 
year-old  steer  or  cow,  as  a  cattle-man  can  do.  These  cattle  were  small 
in  size,  but  I  could  not  say  how  old  they  were. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Could  you  venture  upon  some  approximation  as  to  what  you  re 
garded  the  weight  of  those  cattle  you  saw  ? 

A.  Well,  it  would  be  merely  an  approximation,  as  any  one  would 
say. 

Q.  The  expression,  to  say  that  they  were  small  cattle,  is  a  very  indefi 
nite  one,  and  I  should  desire  you  to  give  some  estimate  of  what  is  your 
judgment  ? 

A.  They  would  probably  average  seven  or  eight  hundred  pounds  all 
around.  I  have  never  weighed  cattle,  and  have  only  an  idea  from  the 
general  conversation  among  the  people  here. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Take  a  good  four-year-old  Texas  steer,  which  has  been  here  since 
July  or  August,  and  what  should  it  weigh,  in  ordinary  flesh  and  size  "? 


520 

A.  Well,  it  ought  to  net  from  550  to  600  pounds,  if  it  was  in  good 
order. 

Q.  Then  you  say  those  that  you  saw  were  so  inferior  that  they  would 
not  go  more  than  400  pounds  net  ? 

A.  About  that;  from  three  to  four  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Now,  suppose  it  was  given  you  as  a  fact  that  those  cattle  had  been 
for  three  days  on  the  road  without  food  or  water,  through  two  nights  of 
storm,  what  wTould  you  say  would  be  the  result  with  such  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  could  not  answer  that  at  all.  I  should  not  judge  that 
their  condition  was  caused  b3~  two  days'  storm  or  wet  weather. 

Q.  Then  you  say  of  those  cattle  which  the  Indians  could  not  drive 
out  of  a  walk  that  it  was  because  they  were  poor  in  flesh  and  weak? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  Mr.  Bosler  respecting  the 
cattle  you  saw  issued? 

A.  No,  sir;  a  Mr.  Bosler  spoke  to  rne  in  regard  to  some  cattle  which 
General  Bradley  looked  at  at  the  investigation  of  Red  Cloud,  but  not 
in  regard  to  the  herd  which  was  in  the  corral. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  you  said  to  Bosler  that  day? 

A.  I  don't  remember  any  conversation  about  cattle.  There  was  a  Mr. 
French  who  spoke  to  me  about  cattle,  but  Mr.  Bosler  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  recognize  this  young  man,  Bosler,  or  know  him  as  being 
in  charge  of  the  herd  ? 

A.  He  gave  me  to  understand  that  he  was  the  beef-contractor,  and 
that  was  his  general  repute,  I  supposed  that  he  was  the  contractor.  I 
did  not  know  that  any  other  person  w-as  interested  until  a  conversation 
with  Captain  Spaulding,  coming  down  from  the  Black  Hills,  and  he 
spoke  of  this  young  Bosler  being  the  brother  of  a  Mr.  Bosler  living  in 
Carlisle,  Pa.;  but,  if  I  recollect  this  young  man,  he  was,  as  I  thought,  the 
contractor.  I  recollect  having  no  conversation  in  regard  to  the  condi 
tion  of  the  herd  of  cattle  which  had  attracted  my  attention.  If  I  had 
expected  to  come  before  the  investigating  committee  I  would  have  tried 
to  recollect  these  things. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  of  any  one  making  a  faulty  excuse  about 
the  condition  of  the  herd  to  any  body;  before  you  inquired  of  any 
one? 

A.  Well,  I  cannot  remember  any  particular  conversation.  It  is  very 
likely  that  a  conversation  could  occur  and  I  would  not  recollect  it.  I 
remember  Bosler  complaining  to  me  in  an  excited  tone  of  voice  that  he 
laicw  all  about  this  thing;  referring  to  General  Bradley  and  other 
officers  going  off  to  look  at  the  herd.  And  he  spoke  in  general  terms 
about  sick  cattle  and  others,  and  said  why  did  they  not  come  to  him, 
and  not  go  to  the  Indians. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  did  occur,  exactly,  between  you  and  that  Mr.  Bosler? 

A.  He  said  that  if  lie  had  known  that  they  were  coining  to  inspect  the 
cattle  he  would  have  had  some  better  cattle  for  them  to  see,  and  he  com 
plained  in  an  excited  manner  about  those  who  had  been  examining  the 
cattle.  What  his  exact  words  were  I  cannot  say.  I  am  as  anxious  as 
you  are  to  tell  what  I  know,  but  I  cannot  remember  what  his  exact  words 
were. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  that  those  cattle  were  not  fair  samples  of  the  cat 
tle  which  were  delivered ;  that  it  was  not  fair  to  go  and  examine  sick 
cattle;  and  if  he  had  known  that  they  were  to  examine  the  cattle  he 


521 

would  have  driven  up  some  cattle  for  them  to  examine,  such  cattle  as 
they  were  issuing  ? 

A.  He  might  have  said  that ;  according  to  my  recollection  he  said 
that  it  was  not  fair  to  go  and  see  sick,  and  lame  cattle,  and  make  them 
stand  as  an  average  of  the  whole  herd.  I  do  not  remember  exactly  ;  he 
may  have  said  that. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  to  understand  that  those  were  not  such  cattle  as 
they  were  issuing  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  He  may  have  said  so,  but  I  do  not  know  that  he  did.  I  suppose  that 
he  thought  they  were  making  an  investigation  of  his  cattle,  and  he  was 
excited  because  they  did  not  let  him  know  about  it.  I  can  only  infer 
that  such  was  his  remark.  I  have  only  an  inference  that  he  might  have 
charged  that;  I  should  think  it  very  likely  that  he  would.  I  was  there 
simply  to  write  up  the  bone-field,  and  paid  little  attention  to  Mr.  Bosler 
or  to  Mr.  Savillc. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Monday,  August  23,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and  Hon. 
TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  F.  ELLISON. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Ellison,  please  state  your  place  of  residence  and  business. 

Answer.  My  residence  is  Marcus,  Texas.  I  am  engaged  in  the  stock 
business  and  farming. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  engaged  in  driving  cattle  up  to  this 
market  ? 

A.  I  have  been  engaged  every  year  since  1869. 

Q.  Did  you  drive  cattle  up  here  this  season  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  many  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  there  was  a  combination  this  year.  Four  of  us  drove 
sixty  thousand.  There  were  two  firms  in  this  combination — Mabry 
&  Millett,  and  Ellison  &  Dewese.  The  two  firms  drove  up  about  sixty 
thousand. 

Q.  Did  you  drive  cattle  last  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  drove  cattle  last  year. 

Q.  Did  you  sell  Mr.  Bosler  cattle  last  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  sold  cattle  to  Mr.  Bosler  last  year.  I  sold  him  about 
seven  thousand  head  last  year.  They  were  for  the  Indian  contract.  I 
delivered  part  of  them  on  the  Platte  and  part  of  them  on  the  Missouri 
River  for  the  Indian  contract.  They  were  Texas  cattle — cows  and 
beeves,  mostly  beeves.  By  beeves  I  mean  four  years  old  and  upward. 
Anything  under  that  would  be  considered  stock-cattle  in  the  beef-market. 

Q.  About  what  time  in  the  season  was  it  that  you  delivered  those 
cattle  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  as  well  as  I  can  remember,  we  delivered  the  cattle  on 
the  Platte  about  the  17th  of  August,  and  the  others  a  few  days  later. 

Q.  Were  those  cattle  in  usually  good  order — good  order  as  cattle 
generally  are  at  that  season  on  this  range  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  good  cattle  and  in  good  flesh  for  the  time  of 
the  year. 


522 

Q.  Between  that  time  and  the  middle  of  November  would  those  cattle 
increase  in  flesh  or  fall  away  ? 

A.  They  would  increase.  They  were  put  upon  as  fine  a  range  as  one 
could  look  at.  They  would  improve  until  the  storms  commenced  in  the 
winter. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  proportion  you  delivered  on  the  Platte  ? 

A.  I  delivered  about  eighteen  hundred  beeves  on  the  Missouri  River. 
I  delivered  no  cows.  I  delivered  fifty-two  hundred  on  the  Platte,  twelve 
hundred  of  which  were  cows,  and  the  others  were  four-year-old  steers, 
and  upward. 

Q.  Have  you  had  such  experience  in  the  weighing  of  beef-cattle  on 
the  hoof  as  to  be  able  to  tell,  with  something  like  accuracy,  what  would 
be  about  the  average  weight  of  cattle  ? 

A.  When  a  man  gives  the  weight  of  cattle  it  is  guess-work.  I  have 
seen  a  good  many  cattle  weighed,  and  I  would  estimate  those  cattle 
which  I  delivered  to  Mr.  Bosler  last  year  from  950  to  1,050  pounds, 
making  a  full  average  of  1,000  pounds. 

Q.  Are  you  interested  in  the  contract  which  Mr.  Mabry  took  for  sup 
plying  the  Government  with  beef-cattle  at  this  agency  ? 

A.  Well,  if  we  had  retained  the  contract,  1  guess  1  would  have  been, 
but  the  contract  was  not  retained,  and  I  don't  know  anything  about  it. 
I  have  no  interest  in  it.  The  cattle  which  we  turn  in  for  Mr.  Bosler  he 
pays  us  for,  and  we  have  no  interest  in  the  contract  whatever.  The 
firm  has  no  interest  whatever. 

Q.  About  what  did  you  get,  on  an  average,  for  the  cattle  which  you 
sold  this  year  ? 

A.  Well,  I  can  answer  that  question  very  easily.  We  got  $12  for 
cows  and  $20  for  beeves.  When  I  say  "we,"  I  mean  the  firms  of  Mabry 
and  Dewese. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  would  those  cows  average  do  you  suppose  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  don't  know  how  they  wTeigh  them  there.  There  is  a 
difference  in  weighing  cattle.  Some  men  lot  cattle  before  they  weigh 
them,  but  I  understand  these  are  turned  in  off  the  grass,  and  they  will 
weigh  900  pounds  ;  that  is,  the  cows  would  weigh  that  much. 

Q.  That  must  make  the  purchase  of  cows  very  valuable  to  a  contractor  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  I  consider  cows  as  good  beef  as  steers.  I  guess  that 
is  where  the  money  comes  from,  but  the  cows  generally  get  fatter  than 
the  steers  when  they  are  brought  up  here  in  the  spring. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  of  the  proportion  of  cows  and  steers  there  is 
in  an  ordinary  herd  9 

A.  There  is  about  one-fourth  cows.  We  don't  want  to  drive  that 
many,  but  we  frequently  have  to  do  it.  They  will  not  average  more 
than  one-fourth.  Mabry  and  myself,  and  the  other  firms,  have  sold  to 
Bosler  twenty-four  thousand  cattle  this  year. 

Q.  What  did  you  receive  last  year  for  your  cattle  ? 

A.  We  received  last  year  eleven  dollars  for  cows  and  eighteen  dollars 
for  steer?,  and  twelve  and  twenty  dollars  this  year. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Were  twelve  and  twenty  the  prevailing  market-rates  when  you  made 
the  contract  with  Mr.  Bosler? 

A.  There  were  no  prevailing  rates  $  no  sales  had  been  made. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  You  made  an  advance  on  last  year's  prices  ? 


523 

A.  Yes,  sir;  we  got  better  prices  this  year.  The  price  of  cattle  has 
advanced  in  Texas,  and  has  advanced  wonderfully  here.  We  have  lost 
money  by  contracting  in  cattle  here. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  is  the  present  market-price  for  different  grades  ? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  hardly  what  we  could  sell  them  for.  We  could 
sell  young  cattle  for  $15  a  head  more  than  we  contracted  for.  Eecently 
there  has  been  a  sale  of  several  thousand  on  the  Platte  at  an  advance. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  These  cattle  you  delivered  to  Bosler  were  contracted  for  in  New 
York  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Bosler  advanced  us  $30.000  on  that  contract.  When 
we  made  the  contract  I  did  not  know  anything  about  it.  Mabry  said 
he  had,  and  we  got  $30,000 ;  he  advanced  that  on  account  of  the  cat 
tle.  We  got  nothing  as  a  bonus  on  the  contract. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  agreement  that  you  should  have  a  part  of  the 
profits? 
A.  No,  sir  ;  none  at  all.     Nothing  only  pay  for  our  cattle. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  At  the  time  the  contract  was  made  was  there  any  indication  that 
cattle  would  advance  beyond  that  of  last  year's  prices  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  known  that  there  was  a  scarcity  of  cattle  on  the 
way  to  this  country.  The  cattle  were  generally  on  the  way  at  that  time, 
and  we  knew  how  many  there  were ;  we  could  count  up  to  five  thousand 
how  many  there  were  at  that  time. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  assign  any  reason  for  this  growing  scarcity  of  cattle  ? 
A.  Well,  it  is  owing  to  the  driving  to  this  country,  and  the  growing- 
scarcity  of  cattle  in  Texas.     The  production  is  not  equal  to  the  demand. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Was  not  Mr.  Bosler's  offer  of  the  advance  over  last  year's  prices 
understood  to  be  as  a  consideration  for  your  turning  the  contract  over 
to  him? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  it  was,  because  we  had  instructed  Mabry  not 
to  take  less  than  $12  and  $20.  We  did  not  know  who  was  going  to  get 
the  contract.  That  was  the  lowest  price  we  were  willing  to  take  when 
he  started  off  for  New  York. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  In  the  cattle  you  sold  Mr.  Bosler,  were  there  not  some  two-year- 
olds? 

A.  They  were  cows  arid  beeves.  I  never  sold  any  young  cattle  to 
him,  because  I  had  contracts  for  young  cattle  with  other  parties,  and 
I  never  delivered  him  anything  but  cows  and  beeves. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  difference  in  the  weight,  in  your  judgment,  of 
a  one-thousand  pound  steer,  whether  he  was  weighed  right  off  grass  and 
water,  or  whether  he  was  weighed  without  grass  and  water  ? 

A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question,  because  I  have  never  seen  it  tested, 
but  I  should  think  the  difference  would  be  fifty  pounds.  If  I  was  going 
to  sell  a  steer,  I  would  take  him  right  off  the  grass. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  suppose  a  thirsty  steer  of  that  weight  will  drink? 

A.  Well,  that  would  be  guess-work,   but  I  think  a  thirsty  large  steer 


524 

would  drink  fifteen  or  twenty  gallons  of  water;  a  horse  would  drink 
eight  or  ten  gallons. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  desirable  for  cattle-dealers  to  sell  their  cattle  right  oft' 
the  range? 

A.  Well,  that  is  the  way  I  would  like  to  sell  mine. 

Q.  You  say  the  cattle  you  sold  this  year  were  cows  and  steers'? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  all  cows  and  steers;  no  young  cattle,  and  they  will  ave 
rage  from  950  to  1,050  pounds  off  the  range. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  contract  for  flour  which  Martin 
had  ? 

A.  Not  anything. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  conversation  which  passed  be 
tween  Mr.  McOann  and  Mr.  Martin  ? 

A.  I  know  nothing  about  it.     I  only  know  Mr.  Martin  when  I  see  him. 
By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  were  interested  in  the  con 
tract  which  Mr.  Mabry  made  with  the  Government? 

A.  Well,  I  would  have  been  interested  if  we  had  carried  out  the  con 
tract.  I  had  one- fourth  interest  in  case  we  furnished  the  cattle.  I  was 
not  present  when  the  contract  was  made  with  Mr.  Bosler.  I  don't  know 
whether  the  contract  with  Mr.  Mabry  was  put  in  writing. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  cattle  that  you  delivered  to  Bosler  did 
you  say  were  cows  this  year  ? 

A.  Well,  I  never  answered  that  question  at  all.  I  said  that  the  num 
ber  which  we  drove  was  about  one-fourth  cows. 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  proportion  of  those  delivered  to  Bosler  were 
cows  ? 

A.  T  cannot  say  that;  we  have  not  turned  in  all  of  this  year's  cattle  yet. 

Q.  Have  you  any  account  by  which  you  can  determine  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  if  I  had  my  bills  of  sales,  I  could  soon  determine  the 
number,  but  I  cannot  give  the  number  unless  I  go  to  work  and  figure 
up.  We  have  not  delivered  everything  yet.  We  have  considerable 
cattle  which  we  have  not  yet  delivered.  We  will,  when  we  get  through, 
have  delivered  about  twenty-four  thousand  cattle  to  him. 

Q.  How  has  your  delivery  been  conducted;  have  you  delivered  so 
many  monthly?" 

A.  No,  sir.  We  deliver  so  many  in  bulk.  We  deliver  as  soon  as  we 
can  get  the  cattle  on  the  ground  where  he  receives  them.  Some  cattle 
are  late  in  getting  up.  We  commenced  the  delivery  about  the  1st  of 
July,  and  have  been  delivering  right  along.  We  have  delivered  about 
twenty-two  or  twenty-three  thousand  cattle.  We  have  just  got  two 
bunches  to  deliver  yet.  We  have  been  paid  partly  for  the  cattle  which 
we  have  delivered,  Part  has  not  been  paid  for.  We  have  been  paid 
already  thirty  or  thirty-five  thousand  dollars.  Bosler  and  Mabry  are 
settling  up  to-day  for  the  cattle  which  had  been  turned  in. 

Q.  You  have  a  general  idea  of  the  amount  now  due  from  Bosler? 

A.  Well,  I  could  come  within  ten  or  fifteen  thousand  dollars  of  it;  I 
could  riot  tell  exactly.  I  guess  he  owed  us  two  hundred  and  fifty  thou 
sand  dollars.  I  could  give  an  approximation  of  the  number  of  cows 
delivered,  but  unless  1  knew  pretty  well,  I  would  not  like  to  say.  Over 
half  of  those  cattle  have  been  turned  in  on  the  Missouri  River,  and  1 
know  nothing  about  them. 

Q.  These  cattle  you  estimate  to  weigh  on  the  hoof  950  pounds,  are 
cows  and  steers  together  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  will  average  it.  They  will  average  1,000  pounds  all 
through,  according  to  my  judgment. 


525 

Q.  If  you  had  delivered  these  cattle  to  the  Government  upon  the 
Mabry  contract,  they  would  have  brought  you  how  much  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  they  would  have  brought  us  considerably  more  than  we 
are  now  getting.  I  have  never  figured  it,  but  they  would  have  brought 
us  $24  ;  that  is,  averaged  at  1,000  pounds. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  was  the  inducement  for  you  to  sell  these  cattle  at  $20  per 
head,  when  by  your  contract  with  the  Government  you  could  get  $24.70  ? 

A.  Well,  when  we  sold  those  cattle  we  got  cash  for  them,  and  if  we 
should  have  sold  the  Government  those  cattle,  we  would  have  had  to  wait 
one  year,  and  deliver  them  twice  a  month,  and  the  risk  of  keeping  them 
during  the  winter  would  overbalance  the  profit ;  but  by  selling  the  cattle 
to  Mr.  Bosler  we  got  our  money,  and  the  work  is  over  with  the  cattle, 
and  we  invest  that  money.  We  have  now  got  it  invested  this  fall,  but 
if  we  had  filled  the  contract  it  would  have  taken  us  until  next  July  to 
fulfill  it.  That  was  our  inducement.  Otherwise  while  we  were  filling 
this  contract  we  could  not  have  been  buying  in  Texas.  I  am  satisfied 
that  by  taking  the  contract  we  could  have  made  some  money  here,  but 
by  selling  the  cattle  and  going  back  to  Texas,  we  could  make  more  money, 
and  make  it  easier,  and  with  less  risk. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Would  those  cattle  which  you  sold  to  Mr.  Bosler  be  likely  to  gain 
in  weight  during  the  year  to  be  consumed  in  the  delivery  9 

A.  They  will  gain  from  now  right  along  until  the  storms  set  in  for  the 
winter.  If  the  winter  is  severe,  they  will  lose  some.  They  will  gain 
novi  right  along  until  November  or  December ;  but  if  th6  winter  is  hard, 
they  will  lose. 

Q.  Would  not  that  increase  in  their  weight  be  a  pretty  material  con 
sideration  or  equivalent  for  the  risk  and  expense  of  keeping  them? 

A.  Well,  I  would  think  likely  it  would,  but  a  man  cannot  run  two  kinds 
of  business  at  the  same  time ;  at  least,  I  cannot  run  a  business  here  and 
a  business  in  Texas  ;  and  just  so  that  I  make  a  decent  profit  on  these  cat 
tle,  is  all  I  want.  I  would  not  stay  up  here  and  take  the  risk  for  the  proba 
bility  of  making  a  nice  profit  outside,  because  I  consider  it  a  risk  to 
hold  cattle  here  in  this  country,  owing  to  snow  and  the  storms ;  it  is  a 
risk  to  turn  them  loose  on  the  prairie  in  winter-time. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Would  it  be  a  fair  question  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Ellison,  what  you  give 
for  these  cattle  in  Texas  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  it  would.  I  never  keep  anything  back.  Cows 
cost  $7  and  beeves  $12  down  there.  We  generally  pay  in  specie,  and 
there  is  a  difference  between  specie  and  currency  there  of  10  per  cent., 
which  would  make  it  about  eight  and  thirteen  dollars  respectively  for 
cows  and  beeves  in  currency. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  statement  that  would  enable  you  to  form 
an  estimate  of  what  is  the  annual  expense  of  keeping  these  cattle  north 
of  the  Platte  during  the  year  of  their  being  delivered  to  the  agency 
and  the  Government? 

A.  WTell,  I  have  never  formed  any  estimate  of  that.  Mr.  Bosler  keeps 
cattle  in  very  large  herds.  We  can  drive  cattle  from  Texas  for  about 
$2  per  head,  in  large  herds.  In  small  herds  it  would  cost  more.  When 
we  first  commenced  driving  cattle  from  Texas,  the  expense  was  double 
and  even  treble  what  it  is  now  for  each  head,  but  since  then  the  whole 
thing  has  been  systematized. 


526 


TESTIMONY  OF  SETH  MABRY. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? 

Answer.  At  Austin,  Texas. 

Q.  State  if  you  have  been  engaged  in  the  business  of  dealing  in  cattle  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  the  business  I  have  been  following  here  since 
1871.  I  have  reference  to  the  Platte  and  Missouri  River  district.  I 
have  been  following  that  as  a  business  since  1866,  and  sinee  1871  I  have 
made  these  points  from  the  Kansas  Pacific  Railroad  north  points  to  dis 
pose  of  them.  In  1871  we  had  been  doing  a  partnership  business.  The 
firm  was  named  Mabry  &  Millett.  We  disposed  of  ten  thousand  head 
in  1872.  We  handled  about  the  same  number  in  1873  ;  we  handled  not 
quite  so  many,  about  eight  thousand,  this  season.  There  are  four  of  us 
interested,  and  we  handled  about  sixty  thousand  altogether. 

Q.  State  the  kind  of  cattle  that  you  have  driven  up  into  this  country. 

A.  With  the  exception  of  last  year,  we  have  handled  only  beeves  ; 
that  is,  four-year-old  steers  and  upward.  Last  season  and  this  season 
I  handled  what  we  call  mixed  cattle  ;  that  is,  two  grades,  from  oue-year- 
olds  up  to  beeves.  The  proportion  of  yearlings  in  a  herd  is  owing  to  the 
way  they  are  gathered,  and  the  way  they  are  contracted  for  in  Texas. 
In  five  thousand  cattle  we  would  throw  in  a  thousand,  each,  one-year- 
olds,  two-year-olds,  and  three-year-olds ;  a  thousand  cows  and  a  thou 
sand  beeves.  That  is  the  way  we  made  our  contracts  in  Texas  with 
Texas  parties,  although  when  we  received  them  they  would  vary  con 
siderably.  The  variation  would  be  probably  about  one-fifth  of  each 
grade  of  the  five  grades.  That  is  the  way  we  contracted  for  our  cattle 
this  season.  We  term  the  herds  mixed  herds  that  are  not  strictly  beef- 
cattle. 

Q.  Have  you  had  some  knowledge  of  the  herds  of  cattle  that  have 
been  driven  up  into  this  country  during  the  last  few  years  ? 

A.  There  have  been  very  few  herds  that  have  been  brought  out  that 
I  have  not  known  something  about.  I  made  it  a  business,  and  I  was 
either  on  the  sell  or  buy,  and  I  have  been  strictly  in  that  business,  and 
there  have  been  but  very  few  herds  that  would  stop  at  the  points  where 
1  have  been  operating  that  I  have  not  seen.  As  a  general  thing  1 
made  it  a  point  to  see  them  all ;  along  the  Platte  River  here  has  been 
quite  a  point  where  people  brought  their  young  cattle.  I  have  had  no 
trouble  there  yet ;  the  stock-raisers  in  this  country  are  anxious  to  buy 
young  cattle  because  the  range  is  good,  and  stock-raising  is  a  good 
business. 

Q.  So  that  there  have  been  a  good  many  of  these  young  cattle  driven 
up  here  for  the  purpose  of  selling  them  to  cattle-dealers  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  ever  since  1868  or  1869  this  point,  and  even  west  of 
this  point. 

Q.  In  the  herds  of  what  you  term  beef-cattle,  is  it  the  case  that  there 
are  some  yearlings  and  some  two-year-olds  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  whenever  we  speak  of  beef-cattle  we  mean  four-year-old 
cattle  and  upward.  There  is  frequently  a  herd  of  beeves  in  which 
there  would  be  a  dozen  three-year-olds,  well-grown  cattle.  There  are 
some  instances  where  there  would  be  half  a  dozen  under  age.  It  is  a 
rare  thing  that  any  man  could  detect  very  soon  from  their  size  whether 
they  were  three  or  four-year-olds.  Whenever  we  speak  of  beef-cattle  we 
do  not  mean  cows  at  all ;  we  mean  steers. 

Q.  Is  it  a  custom  in  trading  off  herds  of  that  kind,  if  there  run  into 


527 

the  herd  a  few  yearlings,  arid  cows  with  calves,  and  so  on — is  it  the 
custom  that  those  yearlings  are  not  counted  at  all  ? 

A.  We  hardly  ever  count  them,  unless  tiere  is  a  contract  made  for 
that  purpose.  If  there  were  only  a  few  tnere  would  be  generally  no 
reckoning  of  them  taken,  but  if  there  were  as  many  as  forty  or  fifty 
yearlings  in  a  herd  of  a  couple  of  thousand,  they  would  be.  But  1  do 
not  think  I  ever  saw  a  herd  where  they  would  be  careless  enough  to  let 
so  many  in.  Maybe  in  selling  twenty  or  thirty  thousand  head  the  year 
lings  might  amount  to  considerable,  but  in  a  smaller  herd  they  would 
cut  them  out,  or  want  something  for  them.  In  all  my  trade  if  I  sell  a 
man  beeves  I  only  give  him  beeves.  In  sorting  a  herd  of  four  or  five 
thousand  cattle  that  have  been  driven  up  here  from  Texas  there  might 
be  twenty-five  or  thirty  yearlings,  but  it  would  be  more  trouble  to  cut 
them  out  than  to  let  you  have  them.  This  spring  we  had  all  mixed  herds, 
but  I  sorted  all  my  cattle  after  I  got  them  to  the  Platte  River  and  to  the 
Arkansas.  I  never  handled  any  cows  until  this  season  (except  a  small 
bunch  for  a  ranch,)  This  year  is  the  first  I  have  handled  any  mixed  cat 
tle.  I  have  handled  nothing  but  beef-cattle  for  sale.  The  season  for 
bringing  cattle  here  ends  about  the  1st  of  September.  Cattle  that  we 
intend  to  winter  here  we  generally  try  to  get  by  or  before  the  first  of 
September — the  earlier  the  better.  The  cattle  generally  come  here 
from  the  1st  to  the  1.0th  of  July,  and  they  generally  get  through  in  good 
fleshy  condition.  This  season  and  last  season  they  came  through  in  very 
good  condition.  If  it  should  happen  to  be  a  bad  season  they  do  not 
look  so  well.  This  season  and  last  season  were  both  very  fine  seasons 
for  handling  stock.  Our  cattle  are  in  good  condition  generally  on  tlie 
1st  of  July,  and  they  continue  in  good  condition  until  Christmas.  They 
were  in  very  good  condition  and  would  have  done  to  ship  east  before 
the  1st  of  June,  this  year. 

Q.  Did  your  firm  sell  to  Bosler  some  cattle  last  season  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  we  sold  him,  I  think,  about  five  or  six  thousand  cattle — 
the  firm  of  Mabry  &  Millett.  They  were  every  one  beeves  but  three 
hundred,  and  I  sold  him  three  hundred  cows.  They  were  everyone 
four-year-old  cattle  that  I  sold  him  last  season.  I  have  been  weighing- 
cattle  ever  since  I  have  been  here,  pretty  much  every  season.  Since 
1866  I  have  been  buying  and  selling  cattle.  The  weight  of  what  we 
term  fresh  cattle  depends  upon  the  way  you  weigh  them.  The  rule  in 
buying  here  is  to  lot  them  for  twelve  hours  before  weighing  them. 
Then  they  would  weigh  considerably  less  than  if  weighed  right  off  the 
ranch.  If  they  were  to  be  weighed  that  way  I  should  estimate  the  cat 
tle  to  weigh  from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  pounds  to  ten  hundred  and 
fifty,  just  owing  to  where  those  cattle  came  from  in  Texas.  When  you 
get  west  of  the  San  Antonio  Kiver,  and  go  into  the  mountain  region,  the 
cattle  are  very  large — from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  to  ten  hundred  and 
fifty,  weighed  right  off  the  ranch.  I  have  no  hesitancy  in  saying  so,  for 
the  reason  that  1  filled  those  contracts  in  1871  on  the  Missouri,  and  I 
had  a  hard  time.  The  weight  of  my  beef-cattle  averaged  a  good  deal 
more  than  a  thousand  pounds  all  the  way  through.  In  the  fall — in 
September,  October,  and  November — there  were  a  good  many  of  these 
cattle  that  weighed  as  high  as  thirteen  hundred  pounds,  and  in  the 
spring  they  ran  down  to  seven  or  eight  hundred ;  that  is,  the  cattle 
furnished  for  the  Yankton  and  Santee  Indians.  I  have  no  hesitancy  in 
saying  that  in  this  country,  in  ordinary  seasons,  the  same  grade  of  cattle 
would  weigh  from  nine  hundred  and  fifty  to  ten  hundred  and  fifty 
pounds.  I  think  the  difference  between  lotting  them  for  twelve  hours 
and  weighing  them  off  grass  and  water  would  be  seventy-five  pounds. 


528 

I  never  have  weighed  our  cattle  to  test  tbeir  weights,  but  if  I  was 
selling  tbem  1  would  ratber  tbrow  off  seventy-five  pounds  tban  lot 
tbem,  because  I  have  a  stroi%  belief  tbat  tbey  would  sbrink  tbat  mucb. 
I  tbink  the  sbrinkage  would  really  be  more  tban  that.  Last  year  we 
sold  cattle  for  less  money  than  we  have  ever  realized  off  them.  Last  year 
tbe  average  price  of  beef-cattle  through  the  country  was  about  eighteen 
dollars — cows  about  eleven ;  yearlings  about  six  dollars,  just  pretty 
much  the  same  price  as  this  season.  I  know  of  none  selling  for  less. 
Last  season  two-  and  three  year-olds  were  worth  about  tbe  same  money 
as  this  season.  I  think  last  season  the  ruling  price  was  about  eleven 
dollars  fortwo-year-olds,  and  fifteen  for  three-year-olds. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Where  did  you  deliver  the  cattle  you  sold  last  year  to  Bosler  ? 

A.  I  delivered  most  of  them  up  here  for  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  tbink  I 
delivered  three  thousand  here  and  three  thousand  on  the  Missouri  River, 
on  what  is  called  "  Sugar  Creek,"  on  the  west  side,  for  all  those  agencies 
on  the  Missouri  River.  We  sold  tbe  Boslers  this  year  about  twenty-four 
thousand.  I  delivered  the  biggest  portion  of  tbem  here  on  tbe  Platte  for 
these  two  agencies,  Spotted  Tail  and  Red  Cloud •  about  twelve  thou 
sand  here  and  tbe  rest  at  tbe  other  agencies. 

Q.  If  it  is  a  fair  question,  what  prices  did  Bosler  pay  this  year  for 
cattle '? 

A.  Unless  it  would  be  of  particular  advantage  to  tbe  commission, 
for  certain  reasons,  I  would  rather  they  would  get  the  particulars  from 
some  other  person,  because  there  are  other  persons  who  sold  cattle  to 
Bosler  as  well  as  myself. 

Q.  Have  tbe  cattle  tbat  you  brought  here  come  from  the  eastern  por 
tion  of  Texas,  or  from  the  western  or  mountain  region  ? 

A.  My  cattle  are  all  western  ;  from  west  of  the  San  Antonio  River. 
They  are  as  large  Texas  cattle  as  we  ever  drive  to  this  market. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  did  the  cattle  you  delivered  this  season  compare  with  the 
cattle  you  delivered  last  season  in  point  of  size  ? 

A.  The  cattle  I  delivered  this  season  would  average  quite  the  weight 
of  the  cattle  I  sold  him  last  season.  I  think  the  herds  last  season  bad 
more  aged  cattle  in  them.  Last  season,  I  think,  they  would  average 
five-year-olds  all  through.  This  season  there  are  a  good  many  four-year- 
olds  among  tbem. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Had  you  any  of  the  scalawag  cattle  in  this  country  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  In  a  thousand  cattle  there  would  probably  be  as  many 
as  ten  or  fifteen  what  we  term  "scalawag"  cattle,  that  probably  lived 
their  time  out  and  got  old  and  rough,  and  tbey  do  not  get  fat  at  all. 
They  won't  get  fat  like  young  animals.  They  are  rawboued,  big,  ugly 
steers.  We  don't  have  tbem  in  all  herds.  They  are  not  in  select  herds. 
You  see,  it  depends  upon  the  contracts.  I  probably  bad  a  few  in  my 
herd  last  year,  but  I  do  not  think  I  bad  half  a  dozen.  I  pay  good  prices, 
and  try  to  select  my  cattle.  But  every  cattle-man  is  frequently  fooled 
by  buying  in  tbe  spring. 

Q.  With  yearlings  at  $G,  cows  and  two-year-olds  at  $11,  and  three 
and  four  year  olds  at  $15,  and  beeves  at  $18,  which  is  tbe  most  profit 
able  I 

A.  The  beeves  and  cows  would  be  tbe  most  profitable,  decidedly,  be 
cause  cows  would  come  under  the  cheap  grade  of  cattle,  and  tbey  pay 


529 

very  heavily.  They  would  be  very  easily  tested  by  weighing  and  lotting 
•them.  They  are  heavier,  in  proportion  to  their  looks.  If  a  man  was  to 
have  young  cattle  in  a  herd,  and  they  should  be  counted  as  weight,  it 
would  be  an  advantage  to  have  them.  I  saw  about  twelve  thousand  of 
Bosler's  cattle.  I  helped  to  cut  out  of  them  some  he  didn't  want  to 
carry  to  the  agencies — some  of  Ellison's  and  Sheidley's  cattle — the 
young  ones,  the  yearlings,  and  two  and  three  year  olds.  I  think  he 
wintered  them.  All  I  saw  of  his  were  beeves  and  cows.  A  good  many 
of  them  were  beeves. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  of  filling  a  contract  that  required  "  beef,'7 
with  no  other  words,  with  that  class  of  cattle  ? 

A.  It  certainly  would  be  filling  it  with  beef.  It  don't  actually  follow, 
in  using  the  term  "  beef,'7  that  it  has  got  to  be  fat  beef,  unless  the  quality 
is  specified  in  the  contract.  If  it  were  in  good  condition,  it  would  ful 
fill  the  contract,  unless  it  was  specified  that  the  beef  must  be  in  fat  con 
dition.  If  I  were  to  agree  to  deliver  to  you  so  many  beeves  on  the  hoof, 
I  would  understand  that  1  should  furnish  you  anything  in  the  world  that 
was  beef— cows,  yearlings,  or  anything  else;  anything  that  was  in  a 
good,  healthy  condition,  unless  steers  were  specified  ;  but  if  I  should 
agree  to  furnish  you  one  thousand  beeves,  I  would  infer  nothing  else  in 
the  world  but  that  they  should  be  steers.  If  the  contract  said  "  beef- 
cattle,1'  I  would  infer  that  they  were  to  be  steers  ;  but  I  would  not  infer 
that  they  were  to  be  fat  beef,  unless  the  word  u  fat "  was  put  in  the  con 
tract. 

Q.  Suppose  you  take  an  1,100-pound  steer  and  drive  him  twenty  miles 
to-day  without  water,  you  let  him  rest  and  feed  and  drink  over  night, 
and  then  drive  him  eight  miles,  and  immediately  put  him  on  the  scales; 
how  much  more  would  that  animal  weigh  than  he  would  if  he  had  been 
twelve  hours  without  food  or  drink  ? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know.  It  would  make  some  difference — a  drive  of 
twenty  miles  without  water;  and  then  the  next  day,  if  you  give  him 
plenty  of  food  and  water,  and  drive  him  eight  miles,  of  course  the  steer 
would  shrink  some,  but  not  as  much  by  fifty  pounds  as  if  you  should 
lot  him,  because  there  is  nothing  to  excite  him  over  night.  When  they 
are  lotted  the  steers  hook  and  get  excited,  and  they  shrink.  Cattle  at 
this  season  of  the  year  are  full  of  grass  and  water.  A  thirsty  ox,  hav 
ing  been  without  water  for  twelve  hours,  would  drink  twenty-five  or 
thirty  gallons  ;  a  big  ox,  twenty-five  gallons  any  way.  In  selling  cattle 
on  foot  by  weight,  I  would  be  liable  to  let  them  drink  all  they  could  be 
fore  they  were  weighed.  I  would  consider  that  was  legitimately  a  part 
of  my  business. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  if  the  buyer  would  let  you  do  it  f 

A.  If  that  was  the  contract  I  should  think  it  was  all  right,  but  if  it 
was  not,  I  should  think  he  was  sort  of  going  back  on  himself.  An  ordi 
nary  horse  will  drink  four  bucketsful  if  you  will  let  him,  and  I  am. 
satisfied  that  an  ox  will  drink  a  good  deal  more  water  than  a  horse.  I 
may  overestimate  it,  but  I  think  he  will  drink  twenty-five  gallons. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  are  this  year  delivering  mixed 
cattle  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  delivering  mixed  cattle  to  Mr.  Bosler  ? 
A.  No,  sir.     I  sold  all  my  young  cattle  to  Mr.  Iliff,  and  Mr.  C.  Wright, 
and  to  Mr.  Snyder;  and  Mr.  Paxton  a  bunch  to  go  to  his  ranch.     I  sold 
Mr.  Bosler  two  grades  of  cattle — beeves  and  cows. 
34  IF 


530 

Q.  The  original  contract  was  made  with  you,  I  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  this  season  ;  but  he  has  the  filling  of  it,  I  just  made  an 
arangement  with  him  in  New  York  to  carry  out  the  contract  and  de 
liver  the  cattle. 

Q.  Was  this  transfer  of  the  contract  made  with  the  permission  of  the 
Interior  Department  ? 

A.  There  was  no  transfer;  it  was  merely  an  agreement  that  I  was  to 
do  one  portion  of  the  work  and  he  another. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  then  the  contract  is  still  in  your  name,  but  Mr. 
Bosler  was  just  a  partner  in  the  concern  ? 

A.  He  took  an  interest  with  me  after  the  contract  was  awarded  me. 
The  bid  was  put  in  in  my  own  name,  with  a  view  of  filling  it  myself,  pro 
vided  nobody  wanted  any  interest  with  me  in  it.  There  are  three  of  us 
in  it. 

Q.  Was  it  a  condition  of  Bosler's  having  an  interest  in  the  contract 
that  he  was  to  obtain  the  cattle  from  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  none  in  the  world.  Mr.  Bosler  took  this  matter  up  en 
tirely  afterward.  He  saw  that  I  had  a  low  bid,  and  he  then  made  a 
proposition  to  me  for  him  to  take  an  interest,  he  to  do  one  portion  of 
the  work  and  I  another. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  portion  were  you  to  do  ? 

A.  The  work  that  was  allotted  me  was  to  get  up  these  cattle  and  fur 
nish  them  here  at  certain  prices.  I  agreed  to  furnish  a  certain  amount 
of  cattle  at  certain  prices.  We  just  made  a  contract  in  New  York,  by 
which  he  became  partner  in  the  contract,  for  a  consideration  which  it 
would  not  be  necessary  for  me  to  name  now  in  the  matter.  Of  course  I 
was  well  posted  as  to  the  work  that  was  to  be  done  outside,  and  he 
would  be  better  able  to  manage  the  delivery  of  the  cattle.  He  knows 
more  about  the  range.  I  have  never  been  at  these  agencies.  A  man 
who  has  been  in  the  business  three  or  four  years  is  better  able  to  control 
it  and  manage  it  than  a  new  man,  because  his  camps  are  all  organized 
for  managing  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Is  he  at  liberty  under  his  arrangement  with  you  to  purchase  cattle 
wherever  he  can  do  so  to  the  best  advantage. 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  you  interested  in  those  purchases  ? 

A.  No,  I  am  not;  my  interest  lies  in  the  number  of  cattle  I  myself 
furnish.  I  furnish  him  no  capital  with  which  to  buy  cattle.  I  feel  just 
as  much  bound  to  see  that  contract  filled  as  if  he  had  nothing  to  do 
with  it ;  and  if  there  were  not  sufficient  cattle  on  hand,  he  could  go  out 
and  buy. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON  : 

Q.  Has  he  any  responsibility  to  the  Government  for  fulfilling  the  con 
tract  9 

A.  Of  course  he  has.  The  contract  was  let  in  my  name  to  begin  with. 
After  talking  the  matter  over  the  Boslers  became  my  bondsmen. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  It  stands  with  you  as  contractor,  and  James  W.  and  J.  H.  Bosler 
as  your  bondsmen  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


531 

By  Mr.  ATHEETON  : 

Q.  If  there  was  a  failure  at  any  time  to  deliver  cattle,  tbey  could  not 
be  called  upon  for  the  fulfillment  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  they  would  go  for  ine.  Of  coarse  they  are  interested.  If 
there  is  any  money  to  be  made  they  would  be  anxious  to  carry  it  out. 
My  contract  is  $2.46.J  per  hundred  pounds. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  pay  for  the  cattle  you  deliver  according  to  the  weight  de 
termined  at  the  agency  ! 

A.  No,  sir.  I  agree  to  deliver  certain  cattle  for  certain  prices  per  head. 
I  have  nothing  to  do  with  them  as  far  as  that  is  concerned.  1  have  no 
interest  as  regards  the  weights  of  the  cattle.  I  have  an  interest  iu  the  con 
tract  besides  my  sale  of  the  cattle.  Bosler  becomes  a  purchaser  to  me 
for.  a  certain  amount  of  cattle  at  certain  specified  prices. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  speak  about  this  season  and  last  season  ;  do  you  mean  1874 
and  1875  ? 

A.  I  alluded  to  1874  and  1875. 

Q.  Do  you  speak  now  of  the  quality  of  the  cattle  delivered  by  Bosler 
in  November,  iS74 '? 

A.  I  only  know  the  quality  of  the  cattle  so  far  as  they  went  there.  I 
know  nothing  of  the  quality  of  the  cattle  that  were  delivered  in  Novem 
ber,  1874.  I  speak  of  the  quality  of  the  cattle  that  went  to  the  agency 
iu  July  and  August.  I  was  not  here  in  November ;  I  was  in  Texas. 
They  were  kept  on  the  Platte  and  delivered  during  the  season.  I  speak 
of  the  quality  of  the  cattle  delivered  in  June  and  July.  They  were  in 
good  fleshy  condition  when  I  delivered  them  to  him,  and  a  good  many  of 
them  were  what  we  termed  fat  cattle.  There  would  probably  be  in  a 
hundred  twelve,  or  fifteen,  or  twenty  fat  cattle.  They  were  what  we  call 
shipping  cattle  ;  cattle  that  would  be  sent  to  the  eastern  markets,  and. 
the  remainder  would  be  good  fleshy  cattle. 

Q.  If  these  cattle  would  be  good,  fleshy  cattle  in  July,  what  ought 
they  to  be  in  November  ? 

A.  They  ought  to  be  what  we  term  fat  cattle  in  November.  They 
generally  get  them  in  about  the  first  of  June  and  July,  and  hold  them 
until  the  first  of  November,  and  then  the  cattle  are  generally  shipped 
East ;  and  they  generally  get  fat  for  packers  in  eastern  markets  to  use 
up  by  the  first  of  November.  In  order  to  get  cattle  here  by  the  first 
of  July  we  have  to  start  them  from  Texas  about  the  first  of  March. 
We  estimate  that  we  can  drive  it  in  about  70  days  ;  but  we  generally 
give  them  longer  time.  The  cattle  may  be  over  time  on  their  way  from 
Texas  here.  We  start  them  very  poor  and  they  all  get  in  nice  condition 
by  the  time  they  arrive  here. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  When  Mr.  Bosler  takes  receipts  for  the  delivery  of  cattle  does  he 
take  them  in  his  own  name  or  in  yours  ? 

A.  The  vouchers  are  given  in  my  name,  but  he  has  a  power  of  attor 
ney  to  receive  them  and  manage  the  business. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  rule  or  custom  among  cattle-purchasers  which  would 
authorize  the  purchaser  to  require  that  they  be  lotted  twelve  hours  before 
weighing  I 

A.  No  ;  unless  it  was  specified. 


532 

Q.  Army  contracts  are  all  made  that  way,  I  notice? 

A.  Yes  ;  and  in  trading  with  each  other  it  is  the  same.  If  I  were  to 
come  here  and  offer  you  three  cents  per  pound  for  your  cattle,  the  cattle 
to  be  weighed  here  at  Cheyenne,  the  inference  would  be  that  they 
would  be  twelve  hours  without  food  or  water,  because  that  is  the  rule. 

Q.  If  it  is  specified  that  you  are  to  furnish  so  many  pounds  of  beef 
on  foot  at  $2.46J  per  hundred,  why  should  not  the  same  rule  prevail  f 

A.  Because  it  is  not  the  custom.  If  it  was  we  would  be  more  careful 
how  we  took  contracts  at  82.461.  Of  course,  in  figuring  this  contract  at 
$2.46i,  I  figured  on  grass  and  "water,  because  I  had  that  much  advan 
tage. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON  : 

Q.  Could  you  now  furnish  cattle  at  $2.461,  lotted  'I 

A.  I  could  not  do  it  now — I  could  probably  have  done  it  last  spring— 
because  there  is  an  advance  in  the  price  of  cattle.  1  probably  would 
have  done  it  at  the  time  I  made  the  contract  with  the  Interior  Depart 
ment,  but  the  Government  did  not  ask  it.  I  thought  the  Government 
was  as  able  to  ask  that  thing  as  an  individual ;  and  if  it  did  not  ask  it 
I  did  not  propose  to  do  it.  If  I  made  the  contract  with  the  Army  I 
would  know  that  I  was  to  weigh  the  cattle  in  the  usual  way— twelve 
hours  off  grass  and  water. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  What  number  of  cattle  did  you  furnish  ? 

A.  About  24,000  head.  Mr.  Bosler  was  the  purchaser  of  the  balance 
of  the  cattle. 

Q.  Instead  of  delivering  24,000  head  to  the  Government,  you  de 
livered  them  to  Bosler. 

A.  Not  exactly.  I  delivered  them  to  the  company;  I  put  them  in  as 
so  much  money  ;  I  sold  them  to  myself.  I  agreed  to  furnish  25,000  head 
of  cattle  of  a  certain  class,  and  he  was  to  take  them  at  certain  specified 
prices  and  go  ahead  and  buy  the  rest  which  would  be  wanted.  My 
interest  was  in  selling  that  amount  of  cattle.  After  I  had  got  my  cat 
tle  all  together,  I  had  not  quite  24,000. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  interest  with  Mr.  Bosler  in  filling  the  remainder  of 
the  contract? 

A.  No  ;  no  further  than  I  have  said.  The  contract  for  the  Yaukton 
and  Sautee  agencies  is  in  my  name. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Let  me  see  if  I  understand  you.  Instead  of  delivering  the  cattle 
to  the  Government,  you  delivered  them  to  the  company,  composed  of 
yourself,  Mr.  Bosler,  and  other  individuals.  They  pay  you  a  fixed  sum 
per  head  for  the  cattle  so  delivered ;  and  this  company  undertake  to  fill 
that  contract  with  the  Government  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Then  you  would  rather  sell  your  cattle  for  cash  than  carry  out  the 
details  of  tlie  contract  yourself  directly  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  knew  what  these  cattle  cost  me.  I  was  figuring  to 
make  a  sure  profit  with  what  cattle  I  was  handling.  I  thought  I  could 
do  better  in  driving  cattle  next  spring,  than  in  handling  them  here.  I 
did  not  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  the  delivery  of  the  cattle 
here.  The  whole  trouble  in  this  matter  is  grass  and  water.  Cattle 


533 

shipped  to  Chicago  that  will  weigh  iu  Chicago  950  pounds,  will  weigh 
at  the  agency  1.100  pounds.  The  difference  to  that  extent  is  just  grass 
and  water,  and  if  any  man  does  not  believe  so,  let  him  go  and  weigh 
them.  It  takes  a  good  class  of  cattle  to  weigh  1,000  pounds  in  Chica 
go.  They  do  not  take  into  consideration  the  shrinkage  on  the  cars  and 
in  the  yard  after  they  get  there.  In  the  one  case  they  are  weighed  free 
£rom  grass  and  water,  and  in  the  other  they  are  not.  I  would  rather 
weigh  them  gross  than  net,  except  at  certain  seasons  of  the  year.  There 
will  be  a  great  deal  of  difference  between  net  and  gross  weight  of  cattle 
killed  right  off  grass  and  water,  and  also  between  gross  and  net  in 
Chicago.  In  making  the  contract.  I  figured  on  grass  and  water. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Bosler  pay  you  any  consideration  for  the  contract  ? 
•  A.  I  do  not  know,  as  we  are  not  trying  this  case  now,  that  that  would 
make  any  feature  in  it ;  but  I  do  not  know  that  an  answer  to  that  ques 
tion  would  give  the  information  which  you  gentlemen  want  to  get  at  at 
all.  I  am  quite  willing  to  answer  any  question  as  to  the  quality  and 
number  of  cattle,  but  as  regards  the  private  arrangements  between  my 
self  and  Mr.  Bosler,  I  don't  think  that  that  is  material. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Have  you  paid,  or  promised  to  pay,  any  person  holding  any  office 
in  the  United  States  any  consideration  for  awarding  that  contract '? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  never  paid  a  dollar,  or  promised  a  dollar,  to  any 
body — not  a  person  in  the  world. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Tuesday,  August  24,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;  Prof.  GEOROE  W. 
ATHERTON  ;  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE  ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER  ; 
and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

TESTIMONY  OF  D.  J.  McCANN. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  McCann,  please  state  your  place  of  residence. 

Answer.  I  reside  in  Nebraska  City,  Nebraska. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  to  state,  Mr.  McCann,  the  facts  in  reference  to  the 
purchase,  or  proposed  purchase,  by  Dr.  Saville,  United  States  Indian 
agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  from  you,  of  certain  oxen,  wagons,  and 
cows. 

A.  About  the  22d  of  July,  1874,  I  arrived  at  the  Eailroad  House  in 
this  city,  from  Washington.  At  the  warehouse  and  office  of  the  store 
keeper  of  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  in  the  evening  of  that  day,  I  saw  a 
notice  requesting  proposals  for  furnishing  twenty  wagons,  twenty 
yoke  of  cattle,  and  twenty  cows,  and  inquired  of  Mr.  Palmer,  the  store 
keeper,  what  wagons  and  what  class  of  cattle  were  required.  Mr. 
Palmer  stated  that  they  wanted  American  oxen,  well  broken,  so  that 
each  yoke  of  cattle  would  work  on  the  tongue,  and  suitable  to  be 
given  to  the  Indians  for  use.  The  wagons,  he  said,  they  preferred 
to  be  the  Studabaker,  but  they  wanted  the  ordinary  two -horse 
wagon.  I  wrote  to  the  Studabaker  Brothers,  at  South  Bend,  In 
diana,  asking  their  price  for  3J  and  3J  spoke  top-box  spring-seats, 
and  double-trees  and  neck-yoke  wagon,  with  a  request  for  Mr.  Studa- 


534 

baker  to  telegraph  his  reply.  And  I  then  put  in  a  proposal  to  furnish 
wagons,  oxen,  ami  cows.  In  the  mean  time  Dr.  Saville  arrived  from  the 
agency.  I  had  a  conversation  with  him,  and  likewise  with  other  gen 
tlemen,  with  regard  to  the  class  of  cattle.  Nothing  was  said  in  regard  to 
the  wagons.  I  hired  a  team  of  Mr.  Ward  here,  took  Dr.  Saville  and  two 
other  gentlemen,  and  we  went  twenty-two  miles  northwest  from  here  to 
look  at  the  cattle.  The  oxen  were  pointed  out.  I  am  not  positive  that 
Dr.  Saville  saw  the  oxen.  We  made  two  trips.  That  was  one  trip  in 
which  Dr.  Saville  himself  accompanied  us  ;  that  was  the  first  trip.  A 
day  or  two  after  that,  a  second  trip  was  made.  Mr.  Appletou  accom 
panied  me  on  the  second  trip,  and  saw  the  oxen  as  they  were  pointed  out. 
The  cows  were  growing  Durham  cows;  they  were  driven,  as  we  were  in 
formed,  from  Kansas  here  the  year  before ;  but  right  here  I  may  state 
that  the  reason  this  particular  lot  of  cows  was  selected  or  proposed  to 
be  selected  for  this  purpose,  Avas,  that  Mr.  Glafcky,  the  editor  of  the; 
Herald  here,  (Cheyenne,)  who  was  likewise  engaged  in  the  stock  busi 
ness,  had  suggested  to  Mr.  Palmer  for  Dr.  Saville  and  myself  this 
particular  lot,  that  he  had  seen  them  pass  through  Cheyenne  on  their 
way  to  this  ranch,  and  we  went  to  look  at  them  $  and  I  made  a  contract 
for  the  purchase,  and  the  intention  was  to  furnish  them  on  this  contract. 
I  returned,  and  the  following  morning,  in  the  office  of  the  agent,  in  this 
city,  it  having  been  agreed  that  those  cows  were  suitable  for  the 
Indian  use,  and  that  the  wagons  as  described  would  be  satisfactory, 
(because  it  is  well  known  what  that  wagon  is,  as  the  agent  here 
had  samples  on  hand,  and  that  was  a  sufficient  description  of  the 
wagon.)  I  sat  down  at  the  desk  in  the  agent's  office  and  wrote,  on 
a  half  sheet  of  paper,  simply  an  agreement  to  deliver  twenty  yoke  of 
cattle,  twenty  cows,  and  twenty  wagons,  to  the  store-keeper  for  the  Red 
Clond  agency,  in  this  place,  on  the  1st  day  of  ^September.  I  telegraphed 
to  Mr.  Studabaker  to  forward  the  wagons  ;  he  telegraphed  me  that  they 
would  be  forwarded  in  a  day  or  two.  Before  these  wagons  were  shipped, 
the  factory  of  Studabaker,  in  South  Eend,  Indiana,  was  entirely  de 
stroyed  by  fire,  with  all  the  wagons,  completed  and  not  completed, 
on  hand.  This  I  state  from  common  rumor  and  the  information  given 
me  by  Mr.  Studabaker.  It  was  a  well-known  fact,  as  it  is  the  largest 
wagon-factory  in  the  country.  This  fire  rendered  it  impossible  to 
furnish  the  Studabaker  wagon.  I  immediately  started  to.  Chicago;  at 
that  place  I  received  a  telegram  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
in  regard  to  some  business,  and  went  immediately  to  Washington.  I 
came  back,  remaining  in  Washington  but  a  day  or  two,  to  the  best  of 
my  recollection.  In  a  conversation  with  the  Commissioner  upon  this 
subject,  he  informed  me  that  he  thought  the  Bain  wagon,  at  Kenosha, 
Wis.,  or  the  Whitewater,  Wis.,  wagon  would  either  of  them  be  suitable. 
I  went  from  Chicago  to  Keuosha,  Wis.,  upon  the  day  of  my  arrival  at 
Chicago,  and  bought  twenty  wagons  of  Mr.  Bain,  and  they  were  shipped 
upon  the  Monday  following.  I  was  there  upon  the  Saturday  previous  f 
and  the  wagons  were  shipped  to  Cheyenne.  I  immediately  came  to  Chey 
enne,  and  found  that  Dr.  Saville  had  returned  to  the  agency.  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  was  here,  and  Mr.  Palmer,  the  store-keeper.  Mr.  Appleton  informed 
me  that,  owing  to  the  destruction  of  the  Studabaker  factory  and  the  im 
possibility  of  getting  that  wagon,  Dr.  Saville  had  concluded  that  they 
would  only  take  ten  wagons  instead  of  twenty,  and  that  Dr.  Saville  had 
likewise  concluded  that,  the  season  being  advanced,  he  had  better  not 
take  the  twenty  milch-cows,  it  being  then  in  September ;  and  he  like 
wise  informed  me  that  Dr.  Saville,  instead  of  taking  the  cattle  agreed 
upon — American  cattle,  well  broken — at  the  price  agreed  upon,  would 


535 

prefer  to  buy  a  little  lower  grade  of  cattle,  young  work-cattle,  well  broken, 
which  could  be  got  at  a  lower  price.  I  said  to  Mr.  Appleton  that  the 
wagons  were  on  the  way,  that  they  were  worth  the  money  purchased, 
and,  if  Dr.  Saville  preferred,  as  I  could  not  furnish  the  Studabaker 
wagons,  to  drop  the  matter,  and  purchase  his  wagons  and  cattle  else 
where,  if  he  could  do  better,  and  in  less  quantity  ;  I  had  no  objection.  He 
said  that  a  voucher  for  the  cattle  and  wagons,  as  agreed  upon,  had 
been  prepared  at  the  agency,  and  sent  over  to  the  store-keeper  here, 
but,  having  changed  his  mind,  the  store-keeper  had  returned  the 
A'oucher  to  the  agency,  and  my  memorandum-agreement,  which  was 
signed  by  myself,  and  not  by  Dr.  Saville  or  any  one  else  for  the 
Government.  It  was  not  a  contract,  but  simply  an  agreement  on  my 
part.  The  memorandum-agreement  was  in  the  office,  and  was  handed  by 
Mr.  Palmer,  the  store-keeper,  to  me,  and  I  destroyed  it.  When  the 
twenty  wagons  arrived,  Mr.  Appleton  told  me  that  he  would  like  to 
have 'ten  of  the  wagons;  he  would  not  purchase  twenty;  all  he 
wanted  was  ten,  I  said,  "  You  can  take  ten  wagons  at  cost  and  car 
riage — the  cost  at  Kenosha,  Wis.,  and  one-half  of  the  freight-bill  as 
charged  at  the  railroad  here/'  I  turned  them  over  to  him  at  that  time, 
and  I  suppose  they  went  to  the  agency.  The  rest  of  the  wagons  I  turned 
over  to  Mr.  Haas,  a  dealer  here,  and  he  sold  them,  and  gave  me  the 
money  for  them.  These  are  the  facts,  as  I  understand  them,  with  regard 
to  the  whole  transaction ;  and  the  failure  to  comply  strictly  with  the 
memorandum-agreement,  given  to  Dr.  Saville,  and  left  with  his  store 
keeper,  was  no  fault  of  mine.  Technically,  I  could  not  comply  with  the 
agreement  in  furnishing  the  Studabaker  wagon  at  that  time.  Mr.  Stud 
abaker  asked  thirty  days'  time.  He  went  on  immediately  manufactur 
ing  the  wagons.  I  did  not  believe  that  it  would  be  satisfactory  to  Dr. 
Saville  to  wait  thirty  days,  and,  as  the  season  was  advancing,  too,  I  de 
clined.  I  purchased  the  Bain  wagon  after  consulting  wdth  the  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  believed  that  the  Bain  wagon  was  equal  to 
the  Studabaker  wagon  for  all  practical  purposes.  I  paid  more  by  three 
dollars  per  wagon  for  the  Bain  wagon  at  Kenosha  than  I  was  asked  for 
the  Studabaker  wagon  at  South  Bend,  Ind.  The  freight  was  about  the 
same  from  Kenosha,  Wis.,  as  from  South  Bend,  Cud.  The  oxen  which 
were  selected  and  agreed  to  be  put  in  on  this  contract  were  American 
cattle,  all  roan  and  red  Durham  cattle.  They  were  five  years  old. 
They  were  shipped  to  Chicago,  and  sold  at  $4.75  per  hundred  pounds, 
gross.  I  state  this  fact  to  show  you  what  kind  of  cattle  they  were,  and 
why  the  Doctor  could  get  cattle  for  less  than  we  wanted  to  sell  him.  I 
shipped  them  to  Chicago  after  that,  because  I  knew  they  were  worth, 
more  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  possession  of  that  voucher  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  it  nor  had  it.  I  had  no  right  to  it.  I  was  informed 
that  it  was  sent  here  in  accordance  with  the  agreement,  and  then,  when 
Dr.  Saville  was  informed  of  the  burning  of  the  Studabaker  factory,  it 
went  back  to  him.  I  know  nothing  of  it.  I  was  prepared  to  fill  that 
agreement  strictly  in  conformity  to  the  contract,  except  the  Studabaker 
wagon.  I  agreed  to  furnish  the  oxen  at  $150  per  yoke,  and  the  wagons 
at  $125  or  $120  each. 

Q.  Did  those  oxen  bring  as  much  gross  weight  in  Chicago  as  you 
offered  to  put  them  in  at  ? 

A.  I  think  they  did ;  but  if  there  was  any  difference,  it  was  trifling. 
The  remark  was  made  here  that  there  would  be  very  little  lost  iu  the 
sale. 


536 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  reason  why  the  Department  could  not  buy  the  wag 
ons  as  cheaply  as  you  could  buy  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  had,  as  you  are  aware,  an  annual  contract  with  the 
railroad  companies  for  the  shipment  of  freights  to  this  point,  and  my  fa 
cilities  for  the  transportation  of  the  wagons  from  South  Bend  here  and 
from  Kenosha  here  were  greater  than  those  of  the  Government.  If  the 
Government  had  shipped  them,  they  would  have  been  charged  np  at  tar 
iff  rates — perhaps  fully  from  50  to  75  per  cent,  above  the  rates  which  I 
pay.  Wagons  are  generally  shipped  at  double  first-class  rates,  on  ac 
count  of  the  bulk. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Mr.  McCann,  you  have,  I  believe,  a  contract  for  freighting  these 
Indian  supplies  to  this  point  and  to  lied  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agen 
cies  ? 

A.  I  have,  sir.  I  have  the  contracts  in  this  building,  [First  National 
Bank  building,  Cheyenne,]  and  can  produce  them. 

Q.  What  are  they  for  ? 

A.  I  have  a  freight-contract  with  the  Indian  Department  for  the 
transportation  of  all  Indian  annuity  goods  and  supplies  purchased  in 
^ew  York,  Philadelphia,  Baltimore  and  Chicago  to  Omaha  and  Sioux 
City  and  Kansas  City;  from  Kansas  City  to  three  agencies  in  the  Indian 
Territory  and  to  Cheyenne ;  from  Cheyenne  to  the  lied  Cloud  agency, 
and  the  Spotted  Tail  agency,  and  the  Shoshoneaud  Bannack  in  Wyom 
ing,  and  the  White  River  agency  in  Colorado ;  for  the  Uintah  agency 
in  Utah  and  to  Ogden:  and  certain  supplies  for  the  agencies  in  Idaho 
Territory.  I  believe  that  comprehends  all  the  contracts  for  freighting 
w?hich  I  have. 

Q.  What  other  contracts  have  you  ? 

A.  One  contract  for  furnishing  200,000  pounds  of  flour  for  the 
Spotted  Tail  agency,  to  be  delivered  in  Cheyenne,  and  for  300,000  pounds 
of  corn  for  the  same  agency,  to  be  delivered  in  Cheyenne.  These  are 
all  the  contracts  which  I  have  with  the  Indian  Department,  except 
where  the  Commissioner  failed  in  one  or  two  instances  to  make  a  con 
tract  with  any  person  for  handling  some  small  amounts  of  goods,  say 
for  the  Quapaw  agency  from  Kansas  City.  I  have  agreed  by  letter  to 
transport  these  from  Kansas  City  to  that  agency  for  a  certain  price.  I 
have  likewise  agreed  by  letter  to  furnish  one  or  two  other  agencies  with 
small  amounts  of  annuity  goods  wrhich  were  not  provided  for  in  my 
contract  or  any  other.  Those  proposals  have  been  formally  accepted 
by  the  Commissioner,  and  may  not  be  termed  contracts,  but  having 
been  notified  that  no  provision  had  been  made,  and  the  question  being 
asked  me,  1  have  submitted  the  price  mostly  for  railroad  transportation. 
They  are  very  small  amounts,  which  were  overlooked  by  the  Depart 
ment  in  making  contracts  for  the  transportation  this  year.  These  con 
tracts  are  for  transportation  only.  I  have  no  contract  for  furnishing 
goods. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  contract  for  furnishing  supplies  during  last 
year  at  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Were  you  interested  in  any  of  the  contracts  for  furnishing  sup 
plies  at  that  agency  ? 

A.  I  was  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  had  the  contract  for  furnishing  the  flour 
there? 


537 

A.  I  do.     It  was  John  H.  Martin,  of  Denver. 

Q.  Did  you  assist  him  in  any  way  in  completing  his  contract  ? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  In  what  way  ? 

A.  When  I  arrived  at  Cheyenne,  on  the  22d  of  July,  1874,  I  found 
that  I  had  been  required  to  furnish  transportation  for  flour  and  other 
supplies  for  the  agencies.  The  transportation  was  here  waiting.  The 
store-keeper  had  written  and  telegraphed  to  Mr.  Martin  with  regard  to 
his  flour,  and  was  informed  that  flour  was  on  the  way  from  Kansas  City 
and  other  points  on  the  Kansas  Pacific  llailroad,  and  that  it  would 
soon  be  here  ready  for  delivery.  The  flour  did  not  arrive ;  and  when 
Dr.  Saville  came  i'rorn  the  agency  he  informed  me  that  they  were 
entirely  out  of  flour,  and  he  telegraphed  himself  to  Mr.  Martin  urging 
him  to  make  an  early  delivery.  Mr.  Martin's  flour  did  not  come  in  at 
all  at  that  time,  and  was  evidently  coming  very  slowly.  My  transporta 
tion  was  here  waiting  for  the  flour.  We  were  here  at  great  expense 
waiting  for  the  flour  and  other  goods  to  arrive  to  transport  them  to  tbe 
.agency;  and  I  telegraphed  Mr.  Martin  that  he  could  purchase  some 
flour  m  Omaha.  He  wrote  ine  by  return  mail  that  if  I  would  make 
the  first  delivery  for  him  of  200,000  pounds  of  flour,  he  would 
give  me  the  contract-price  and  $50  for  my  trouble.  I  telegraphed 
to  Omaha  and  purchased  200,000  pounds  of  flour,  to  be  shipped  as 
rapidly  as  it  could  be  manufactured  and  sent  forward.  By  this  con 
tract  the  flour  was  to  pass  inspection,  and  be  such  as  would  be  re 
ceived  under  Mr.  Martin's  contract.  On  the  8th  of  August  200  sacks 
of  flour  were  shipped  by  O.  P.  Hurford,  of  Omaha ;  on  the  13th  of  Au 
gust  200  sacks  were  shipped  ;  on  the  21st  of  August  200  sacks  were 
shipped  ;  on  the  21st  of  August,  again,  222  sacks  were  shipped  ;  on  the 
25th  of  September  237  sacks  were  shipped;  on  September  25,  472  sacks 
were  shipped  ;  on  September  30,  250  sacks  were  shipped ;  on  the  30th  of 
September,  again,  250  sacks  were  shipped,  and  on  the  same  day,  again, 
250  sacks  were  shipped.  [Mr.  McCann  read  the  following  figures  irom 
the  bills  of  lading  from  the  railroad  company:]  "August  8,  there  were 
shipped  200  sacks ;  August  13,  200  sacks  ;  August  21,  200  sacks  ;  Au 
gust  21,  222  sacks  ;  September  25,  237  sacks ;  September  25,  472  sacks  ; 
September  30,  250  sacks  ;  September  30,  250  sacks  ;  September  30,  250 
sacks — total,  2,281  sacks."  That  is  upon  the  contract  which  was  made 
for  200,000  pounds  of  flour. 

Again  in  October,  Mr.  Martin  was  slow  in  delivering  the  flour.  He 
telegraphed  me  to  put  in  some  more  flour  on  the  same  terms ;  and  on 
October  15  Mr.  Hurford  shipped  250  sacks ;  October  15,  250  sacks ; 
October  16,  220  sacks  ;  October  19,  250  sacks  ;  October  23,  220  sacks  ; 
October  23,  120  sacks— 1,310  sacks. 

Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  having  heard  that  there  were  supposed  to  be  some 
irregularities  in  regard  to  this  flour,  I  am  prepared  to  exhibit  to  the 
commission  the  bills  of  lading  for  each  shipment  of  flour,  receipted.  I 
have  already  stated  to  the  commission  that  I  had  no  interest  in  this  mat 
ter,  directly  or  indirectly,  except  that  of  a  freighter,  and  did  not  want  my 
transportation  to  be  delayed.  The  contract-price  was  12.50  per  hundred 
pounds  for  this  flour  delivered  in  Cheyenne.  Mr.  Hurford  also  said  that 
he  would  give  me  $50  for  my  trouble.  My  reply  was,  "I  will  charge  you 
nothing  but  the  interest  upon  the  money  while  I  am  out  of  it." 

Q.  Now,  the  contract-price  for  this  flour,  $2.50  per  hundred  pounds, 
was  received  by  Martin  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


538 

Q.  Any  profit,  then,  between  the  price  paid  for  it  in  Omaha  and  the 
price  paid  by  the  Government  was  made  by  Martin  ? 

A.  There  was  no  profit  in  that  contract.  Mr.  Martin  lost  money.  The 
flour  delivered  in  Cheyenne  would  cost  more  than  the  price  which  the 
Government  was  paying  for  it;  but  I  have  a  special  contract  with  the 
railroad  company,  and  delivered  it  here  cheaper  than  Martin  could.  In 
other  words,  Martin  got  the  benefit[of  my  special  rates  with  the  railroad 
company  for  transportation  ;  and  I  gave  it  to  him  in  order  to  facilitate 
my  transportation. 

Q.  Mr.  McCann,  in  the  matter  of  procuring  flour  to  fill  the  contract 
of  Mr.  Martin,  did  you  direct  Hurford  that  he  should  put  up  a  portion 
of  that  flour  in  88-pound  sacks  instead  of  sacks  containing  100  pounds  ? 

A.  I  did  not  direct  him  to  do  so  ;  but  there  was  a  delay  in  the  ship 
ment  of  the  flour  for  the  want  of  sacks,  and  the  question  arose  as  to 
whether  the  flour  would  be  received  in  sacks  weighing  less  than  100 
pounds.  They  had  some  sacks  which  would  not  hold  100  pounds,  and 
the  store-keeper,  I  believe,  telegraphed  to  the  Department  asking  if  he 
should  receive  flour  in  sacks  not  weighing  100  pounds.  The  reply  was 
that  the  flour  might  be  received  at  the  actual  weight;  and  what  sacks 
Mr.  Hurford  had,  I  don't  know  how  many,  holding  in  the  neighbor 
hood  of  87  or  88  pounds,  were  used  to  put  up  the  flour  in.  All  the  rest 
of  the  flour  was  put  up  in  sacks  weighing  not  less  than  100  pounds. 
The  railroad  receipts  show  what  number  of  sacks  weighed  88  pounds 
and  what  number  weighed  100  pounds. 

Q.  Were  you  advised  by  Hurford  that  he  had  sacks  that  would  con 
tain  88  pounds  and  no  more  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  in  passing  through  Omaha  I  stopped  to 
urge  the  speedy  shipment  of  the  flour,  and  was  told  that  a  certain  lot  of 
sacks  were  on  hand  which  held  less  than  100  pounds,  and  that  other 
sacks  had  been  ordered  from  St.  Louis.  I  told  him  that  as  the  contract 
was  for  a  .number  of  pounds,  I  could  see  no  objection  whatever,  except 
the  weight,  and  urged  the  speedy  shipment  of  the  flour  in  whatever 
sacks  they  had.  There  is  one  bill  here  which  is  for  224  sacks,  but  the 
weights  are  carried  out  at  22,000  pounds,  which  would  be  the  weight 
of  220  sacks  at  100  pounds  each.  Mr.  Hurford,  in  his  letter  explaining 
that,  said  that  in  that  particular  car-load  he  was  compelled  to  go  up 
town  and  purchase  a  few  odd  lots  of  flour  to  complete  the  car-load,  and 
that  one  or  two  of  the  sacks  were  light,  and  he  put  four  sacks  in  over 
to  make  up  the  whole  22,000  pounds  of  flour. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  you  that  this  flour  was  not  put  up  in  88-pound 
sacks  at  your  particular  request  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not.  I  think  I  made  the  request,  but  I  think 
the  request  was  made  after  being  informed  that  they  were  the  only 
sacks  on  hand,  and  they  would  have  to  wait  the  arrival  of  other  sacks 
from  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Did  you  notify  Agent  Saville  or  the  store-keeper  here  that  flour 
was  being  put  up  or  had  been  put  up  in  88-pound  sacks? 

A.  I  wrote  back  to  the  store-keeper,  but  not  to  Agent  Saville,  that 
Hurford  would  ship  a  lot  of  flour  in  88-pound  sacks.  The  store-keeper, 
as  I  learned  afterward,  would  not  receive  sacks  of  flour  unless  they 
weighed  100  pounds.  Xot  having  Martin's  contract  before  him,  he  did 
not  know  but  that  the  contract  was  for  flour  in  sacks  weighing  100 
pounds;  and  for  that  reason  he  telegraphed  to  the  Department. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  those  88-pound  sacks  were  double  sacks  and 
the  weight  marked  upon  them  '? 

A.  I  do  not,  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  suppose   they  were  all  in 


539 

double  sacks.  I  never  heard  that  they  were  not  in  double  sacks.  I  don't 
know  whether  the  weight  was  marked  on  the  sack  or  not.  I  know  of 
the  weights  at  which  those  sacks  were  inspected  when  brought  here,  and 
Mr.  Green,  of  the  State  Mills,  Omaha,  told  me  that  he  furnished  a  part 
of  the  flour,  and  stated  that  all  the  flour  which  he  furnished  had  the 
weight  of  88  pounds;  and  all  the  sacks  which  he  inspected  held  out 
the  full  88  pounds.  I  think  the  store-keeper's  books  here  will  show  that 
some  on  Mr.  Coakley's  inspection  weighed  only  87  pounds  and  a  fraction 
over.  The  fraction  is  carried  out  on  the  books  of  the  store-keeper,  and 
he  billed  the  flour  to  me  in  that  way. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  much  flour  Martin  contracted  to  deliver 
that  year  ! 

A.  I  do  not,  sir.  I  suppose  I  heard  at  the  time,  but  I  don't  know  how 
much  flour  he  contracted  for. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  he  did  deliver? 

A.  No,  sir.  My  bills  of  lading  would  show  how  much  I  hauled,  but  I 
would  have  to  examine  my  books  to  see. 

Q.  How  many  teams  do  you  own  engaged  in  hauling  supplies  to  the 
agencies  from  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  I  have  one  hundred  and  fifty  yoke  of  cattle  and  fifteen  wagons  at 
present.  I  have  sold  some. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  special  rates  which  you  had  with  the  railroad  com 
pany  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have. 

Q.  Are  those  special  rates  which  you  have  less  than  the  usual  rates  ? 

A.  Much  less. 

Q.  I  think  you  said  from  50  to  75  per  cent.  ? 

A.  More  than  75  per  cent,  below  usual  rates — more  than  100  per  cent, 
now.  The  regular  rates  have  largely  advanced  since  I  made  my  con 
tracts,  with  all  the  railroad  companies  with  which  I  am  acquainted,  run 
ning  east  and  west.  For  instance,  the  rate  to  Cheyenne  has  been  all  the 
present  season  $2.70.  The  Government  pay  s  me  $1.05 ;  there  is  a  difference 
of  $1.65  in  favor  of  the  Government.  That  is  much  greater,  however, 
than  it  was  last  year  or  has  been  heretofore. 

Q.  Have  you  any  contracts  for  freighting  supplies  for  the  Army  ? 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Did  you  make  a  contract  for  the  removal  of  the  supplies  and  other 
material  about  the  lied  Cloud  agency,  from  the  Platte  River  up  to  the 
present  location  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  did,  sir.     It  was  in  August,  1873.     That  was  a  special  contract 
made  by  the  Indian  Department ;  the  contract  was  by  the  day  for  the 
cattle  and  wagons,  and  the  contract  for  the  transportation  of  the  sup 
plies  was  by  the  100  pounds. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  find  upon  looking  over  these  bills  which  you  handed  me,  and 
Hurfoid's  bills,  that  2,238  sacks  of  flour  out  of  the  whole  number  are 
charged  to  you  as  weighing  only  88  pounds  per  sack  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had  an  idea  it  was  about  that  number.  I  received  the 
flour  for  88  pounds,  and  turned  it  in  at  88  pounds,  except  where  Mr» 
Coakely  in  weighing  it  found  a  discrepancy  in  the  weight  sometimes 
of  one-tenth  of  a  pound  less  88  pounds,  and  that  fraction  you  will  find 
charged  against  me  on  the  store- keeper's  books,  but  I  paid  for  them  just 
as  weighing  88  pounds. 

Q.  Here  is  a  letter ;  do  you  know  anything  of  it  ? 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  August  1, 1874. 

DEAR  SIR:  I  received  your  two  favors  of  the  30th  ultimo  yesterday,  and  telegraphed 
you  to  hasten  shipments  of  5  cars  flour  as  much  as  possible.  Your  price  ($2.12)  will 


540 

leave  the  contractor  a  loser  about  5c.  per  sack.  I  must  have  1,000  sacks,  however,  as 
fast  as  you  can  possibly  forward  them.  Please  load  220  sacks  in  a  car.  They  may  bill 
it  at  20,000  Ibs.  I  can  take  5,000  sacks  more  of  you,  probably,  at  $2  in  the  cars — 
double  sacked.  The  price  is  $2.50  here.  Advise  me  what  you  caii  do,  an  dhow  fast  you 
can  deliver.  The  flour  must  be  receipted  for  as  being  bought  at  and  shipped  from 
Omaha.  We  will  have  it  inspected  here.  Make  this  1,000  sacks  as  good  as  you  can. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANX. 

O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

The  5  cars  will  be  1,100  sacks  instead  of  1,000. 

A.  Yes,  sir :  that  letter  was  written  to  make  up  20,000  pounds  of 
flour — in  order  to  make  up  the  exact  amount  of  flour  which  Martin  was 
called  upon  to  deliver  up  to  a  certain  day,  and  20,000  pounds  was  the 
amount. 

Q.  Who  authorized  you  to  buy  flour-sacks  weighing  88  pounds? 

A.  Mr.  Martin,  the  contractor,  did  so. 

Q.  Have  you  in  your  possession  any  letters  from  Mr.  Martin  bearing 
upon  that  subject  ? 

A.  I  have  no  letters  of  my  correspondence  of  last  year  with  me.  I 
have  the  company's  bills  of  lading,  but  have  not  brought  any  correspond 
ence  with  me. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  after  that  flour  was  received  here  at  Cheyenne 
you  transported  it  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  at  its  exact  weight ! 

A.  I  say  that  I  transported  it  at  its  exact  weight,  and  that  weight 
was  less  than  we  paid  Mr.  Hurford  for,  and  I  would  like  you  to  look  at  the 
store-keeper's  books,  and  they  will  show  at  what  weight  it  was  received; 
and  that  the  store-keeper's  books,  and  the  railroad  company's  books,  and 
the  books  at  Cheyenne  all  correspond. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  Hurford  for  the  flour  f 

A.  I  paid  for  the  first  lot  $2.12,  as  the  bills  will  show ;  and  for  the 
second  lot  $2  per  hundred. 

Letter  of  Mr.  McCann,  dated  Cheyenne,  November  1,  1874,  to  Mr. 
Hurford,  as  follows,  shown  : 

CHEYENNE,  JVovero&er  1, 1874. 

DEAR  SIR:  I  have  your  favor  of  the  29fch  ultimo,  postmarked  the  31st.  I  called  at 
the  banking-house  of  P.  S.  Wilson  on  Tuesday  evening  on  my  arrival  here  ;  and  finding 
it  closed,  paid  your  draft  on  Wednesday  morning.  I  am  not  responsible  for  any  delay. 
Now,  as  to  "patching  up"  this  flour  for  Dr.  Irwin,  it  won't  do.  The  railroad  charges 
double  rates  on  all  excess  over  '22,000  Ibs.,  and  I  fear  you  will  have  an  overcharge  on 
the  remaining  cars.  Please  send  good  flour.  We  have  212  sacks  of  your  flour  in  ware 
house  rejected.  An  investigation  as  to  tbe  causes  of  this  will  lead  to  unpleasant  cor 
respondence  with  the  Department,  as  Barclay  White  disclaims  responsibility. 
Yours,  respecfully, 

D.  J.  McCANX. 

O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

Q.  You  say  he  has  in  the  warehouse  212  sacks  of  that  flour,  rejected. 

A.  The  Department  wrote  to  Major  Long,  or  to  the  store-keeper,  I  don't 
know  which,  to  have  all  the  flour  which  Barclay  White  had  inspected 
at  Omaha  re-inspected  here  ;  and  some  of  the  flour  inspected  by  Bar 
clay  White  was  rejected  after  inspection  by  Major  Long.  I  called  upon 
Barclay  White  in  Omaha  to  ascertain  why  the  sample  of  Hurford's  flour 
should  pass  in  Omaha,  and  he  pay  freight  upon  it  here,  and  not  pass 
Colonel  Long.  Mr.  White  informed  me  that  he  received  the  sample 
from  Mr.  Hurford  by  which  to  inspect  the  flour,  and  which  was  the  sam 
ple  he  put  in  his  bid  upon  in  Washington,  and  after  inspecting  a  cer 
tain  amount  of  flour  by  that  sample,  Mr.  Hurford  called  upon  him  and 
stated  that  his  young  man  had  made  a  mistake  ;  that  he  had  furnished 
a  better  article  of  flour  than  the  sample  which  he  had  furnished  the 


541 

Department,  and  then  furnished  an  inferior  sample,  or  sample  of  inferior 
flour  $  and  that  he  had  inspected  a  car-load,  or  more  perhaps,  by  the 
inferior  sample ;  and  that  he  supposed  a  portion  of  that  car-load  of  flour 
was  the  flour  which  had  been  rejected  by  Colonel  Long. 

Q.  You  say  you  had  no  correspondence.  What  did  you  mean  by  the 
term  "  unpleasant  correspondence  tn 

A.  I  should  think  it  would  be  unpleasant  for  Mr.  Hurford,  or  any  one 
to  do  as  he  did.  I  refer  to  the  change  of  samples  by  Mr.  Hurford. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  Mr.  Hurford,  when  he  under 
took  to  fill  the  Martin  contract,  furnished  the  sample  ? 

A.  Mr.  Hurford,  in  furnishing  this  flour,  was  allowed  to  put  in  his  own 
sample  which  he  furnished  the  board  in  New  York.  I  know  that  Mr. 
Hurford  furnished  a  sample  to  the  Department. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  is  your  contract-rate  with  the  railroad  between  Cheyenne 
and  Omaha  ? 

A.  On  grain,  flour,  and  corn,  in  car-loads,  it  was  $100  per  car,  with 
a  rebate  of  $25  per  car,  netting  $75,  with  20,000  pounds  to  a  car-load  ;  all 
over  20,000  would  be  50  cents  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  You  say  that  for  20,000  pounds  you  paid  $75  between  Omaha  and 
Cheyenne,  that  is  37£  cents  per  hundred,  and  the  contract  of  Martin  for 
the  delivery  of  flour  was  $2.50  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  and  I  paid  Hurford  $2.12  there,  making  it  cost  $2.49  J 
here.  The  balance  I  got  from  Hurford  was  $2,  thus  giving  Martin  a 
profit  of  12 J  cents  on  that  second  lot  of  flour.  Mr.  Martin  had  the  bene 
fit  ;  I  had  no  benefit  from  it.  In  the  settlement  I  charged  him  with  the 
amount  of  money  paid  out,  and  interest  on  the  money  until  repayment 
was  made,  and  that  was  the  entire  interest  I  had  in  it.  Mr.  Hurford 
was  a  bidder  in  New  York  for  this  flour  at  $2.35 ;  but  had  the  Govern 
ment  accepted  Mr.  Hurford's  bid  at  Omaha  at  $2.35,  it  would  then  have 
to  pay  me  45  cents  per  hundred  for  transportation  from  Omaha  to  Chey 
enne,  and  the  flour  would  then  cost  $2.80  delivered  in  Cheyenne. 

Q.  Your  profit  on  the  transportation  between  Omaha  and  Cheyenne 
was  a  profit  of  7J  cents  per  hundred  pounds  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  loading  or  unloading. 

Q.  "What  is  the  schedule-rate  between  Omaha  and  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  I  contract  everything  for  45  cents  per  hundred  pounds  ;  but  I  have 
to  pay  for  some  freights  to  the  railroad  company  higher  than  that. 
Merchandise,  first  class  is  $2.05,  second  class  $1.80,  third  class  $1.55,  per 
hundred  pounds,  from  Omaha  to  Cheyenne ;  grain,  commissary  stuff, 
bacon,  &e.,is  so  much  per  hundred  pounds,  of  18,000  pounds  and  over ; 
that  is,  there  must  not  be  less  than  that  in  a  car.  I  get  it  for  $1.45. 
By  giving  the  Union  Pacific  Eailroad  Company  all  my  freight,  and 
paying  full  tariff  rates  in  cash  at  Cheyenne,  I  get  a  rebate. 

Q.  Now,  can  you  tell  me  any  reason  why  the  Government  itself  can 
not  make  the  same  special  rates  with  the  railroad  company  which  you 
make  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  can ;  because,  in  transporting  Government  goods  over  the 
Union  Pacific  and  Kansas  Pacific  Railroads,  the  roads  are  entitled  to  a 
formal  requisition  by  the  proper  officer  of  the  Government  and  a  Govern 
ment  bill  of  lading  prior  to  the  shipment,  and  then  they  are  entitled  to 
charge,  and  do  charge,  their  tariff  as  furnished  in  this  pamphlet,  (sched 
ule,)  with  the  exception  of  the  revised  tariff  which  they  have,  in  which 
certain  articles  are  higher  rather  than  lower,  and  upon  the  delivery  of 


542 

these  goods  they  are  required  to  have  that  Government  bill  of  lading 
receipted  by  the  officer  there  to  receive  these  goods  from  the  road  be 
fore  they  receive  credit  for  this  transportation;  they  are  compelled  to 
forward  these  bills  to  Washington,  to  the  auditing  department  of  the 
Government  ;  and  as  I  am  informed  and  believe,  there  is  a  difference  of 
opinion  almost  invariably  between  these  officers  of  the  Government 
and  the  officers  of  the  railroad  ;  consequently,  the  railroad  company 
prefers  to  ship  any  or  all  goods  by  private  contract ;  that  is,  they  pre 
fer  shipping  goods  at  a  much  lower  rate  when  they  can  receive  the  goods 
at  the  point  of  shipment,  forward  them  to  their  destination,  receive  the 
cash,  and  have  no  further  trouble  and  responsibility  5  thereby  showing 
at  the  end  of  every  thirty  days  what  the  receipts  and  expenses  of  the 
roads  may  be.  It  is  a  business  transaction  ;  and  the  experience  of  the 
Indian  Department  of  the  Government  is,  that  last  year  that  Depart 
ment  saved  fully  $22,000  or  $23,000  of  money  which  was  appropriated 
by  Congress  for  the  use  of  the  Indians,  and  which  if  they  had  used  in. 
shipping,  and  had  been  charged  up  with  tariff  rates,  the  transporta 
tion  would  have  been  charged  to  the  appropriations  for  that  purpose, 
and  thereby  left  the  Interior  Department  with  much  less  money  to  give 
to  the  Indians;  and  I  think  that  it  not  only  necessarily  reduces  the 
appropriations  of  that  Department,  but  it  leaves  the  Indians  with  that 
much  profit. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  the  Government  itself,  through 
its  specal  agent,  could  not  make  the  same  rates  you  do  I 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  it  could  or  not,  through  a  special  agent. 
I  have  never  asked ;  but  I  doubt  whether  it  could.  I  have  an  advan 
tage  over  other  shippers.  The  advantage  I  have  over  other  shippers  is 
that  of  moving  large  amounts  of  freight.  Almost  all  of  my  freight  comes 
in  car-loads.  There  is  but  one  bill  of  it  and  one  delivery,  wrhile  when 
others  ship,  a  car  may  contain  the  freight  for  fifty  different  parties. 
Any  other  man  shipping  as  much  as  I  do  might  have  the  same  rates, 
and  I  don't  see  any  reason  why  the  Government  should  not. 

Q.  You  have  a  contract  from  Philadelphia  'to  Omaha! 

A.  I  have  bub  one  contract,  and  it  includes  New  York,  Philadelphia, 
and  Baltimore,  to  Omaha. 

Q.  What  is  the  rate  in  that  one  contract  ? 

A.  The  rate  in  this  one  contract  is  the  same  from  the  three  cities. 
My  contract  with  the  Government  from  New  York  and  Philadelphia  was 
00  cents,  and  my  profit  last  year  was  five  cents  per  hundred  pounds.  I 
have  a  contract  with  the  railroads  leading  to  these  cities  for  a  special 
rate,  and  as  far  as  Chicago  with  the  Union  Star  Line  Transportation 
Company;  from  Chicago  to  Omaha,  with  the  Chicago,  Burlington  and 
Quincy,  and  Missouri  Eiver  Railroad  Companies,  and  my  facilities  for 
obtaining  these  special  rates  are  because  I  ship  large  quantities  of 
freight.  If  the  Government  would  ship  as  much,  and  would  pay  cash 
upon  the  delivery  of  the  goods  at  the  points  of  delivery,  I  don't  know 
but  that  it  could  have  as  good  rates  as  I  do.  The  railroad  companies 
generally  have  informed  the  Department  that  they  would  make  no  re 
duction  of  their  schedule-rates,  for  the  reason  that  in  the  settlement  of 
their  accounts  they  are  embarrassed  by  the  requirements  of  the  audit 
ing  departments  of  the  Government,  and  in  some  instances  have  been 
more  than  one  year  in  the  collection  of  freight-bills.  But  if  the  Gov 
ernment  would  do  as  other  people  do,  and  pay  when  the  work  was  done, 
they  would  have  no  trouble  in  getting  as  low  rates  as  I  do. 

Q.  When  we  came  here  (to  Cheyenne)  the  other  day  we  found  twenty- 


543 

two  car-loads  of  freight  lying,  with  the  freight  unpaid  over  the  Kansas 
Pacific  Railroad.  Can  you  give  any  reason  for  that  ? 

A.  When  the  Government  commenced  delivering  the  goods  embraced 
in  these  bills  of  lading  to  me,  about  the  16th  of  June,  some  in  Philadel 
phia,  some  in  New  York,  and  some  of  them  in  Baltimore,  I  went  on  to 
.superintend  the  shipment-  in  person,  as  my  contract  with  the  railroad 
companies  was  to  forward  all  the  goods  purchased  on  the  28th  of  April 
by  the  Government  to  different  points,  and  to  receive  them  all  at  the 
same  time.  I  have  been  for  two  or  three  years  requested  by  the  Gov 
ernment  not  to  ship  annuity-goods  in  parcels.  It  has  been  done  ;  some 
of  the  annuity-goods  being  delivered  at  the  agency,  and  the  Indians 
urging  for  their  distribution.  They  have  done  it,  and  some  were  delivered 
at  different  times.  Last  year  I  was  instructed  to  hold  all  the  annuity- 
goods  until  the  arrival  of  all  of  them,  and  make  the  delivery  at  one 
time  for  the  Eed  Cloud  agency.  I  was  urged  to  forward  what  goods 
were  here,  and  over  half  had  not  arrived  at  this  point ;  but  I  shipped 
them,  if  I  recollect  right,  in  October,  all  that  were  here.  Of  thirty- 
seven  bales  of  blankets  shipped  from  Philadelphia  only  thirty-five  had 
arrived  at  this  point.  We  shipped  them  to  the  agency.  I  wras  here  and 
saw  them  shipped;  two  bales  had  not  arrived,  but  they  were  sent  for 
ward  upon  the  next  train  after  their  arrival.  It  was  believed,  or  it  was 
stated  at  the  time,  that  two  bales  of  blankets  had  been  stolen ;  while 
the  fact,  which  I  have  examined  into  this  spring  in  Philadelphia, 
proves  that  they  were  not  shipped  at  the  same  time  from  Philadelphia, 
and  they  were  short  by  shipping  thirty-five  bales,  and  a  few  days  after 
shipping  two  bales ;  but  the  two  bales  were  more  than  two  weeks  in 
coming  to  Cheyenne.  To  avoid  such  inconveniences  and  such  embar 
rassments  at  the  agency,  I  have  been  requested  to  have  all  the  goods 
on  hand  before  commencing  to  ship  the  annuity  goods.  But  my  con 
tract  with  the  company  this  year  was  to  ship  the  goods  as  fast  as  they 
could  be  inspected,  and  delivered  to  me  in  New  York,  Philadelphia,  and 
Baltimore,  I  to  receive  them  at  once  here  and  pay  the  freight.  The 
goods  first  shipped  this  year  were  allowed  to  come  forward,  and  we 
expected  to  receive  the  balance  of  the  purchases  immediately,  but  many 
and  unnecessary  delays  were  occasioned  in  the  inspection  of  the  goods 
in  those  cities,  and  in  the  delivery.  In  some  cases  goods  delivered  by 
the  contractors  were  refused  and  other  goods  had  to  be  manufactured, 
as  in  the  case  of  your  heavy  duck  furnished  by  Pilkius  and  Thomas, 
as  I  am  informed  that  the  first  delivery  by  them  was  not  acceptable, 
or  of  suitable  weight ;  that  they  had  to  go  to  the  Mount  Vernon  Mills 
of  Baltimore  and  manufacture  the  whole  lot  before  they  could  be  deliv 
ered  ;  and  not  until  the  12th  of  August  were  the  last  goods  delivered  to 
me  ;  and  I  have  received  by  this  mail  to-day  from  the  Department  these 
bills  of  lading.  Now,  these  goods  could  not  be  delivered  and  reach 
here  any  sooner,  unless  the  Government  had  delivered  them  to  me,  as 
they  agreed  to  do,  and  they  had  notified  me  to  be  present  to  receive 
them  and  ship  them.  Every  pound  of  goods  this  year  received  by  me 
has  been  loaded  and  started  the  day  of  their  arrival  and  delivery  to 
me. 

Q.  But  there  were  twenty-two  car-loads  of  goods  lying  here  when  we 
got  here;  wrhy  was  that  ? 

A.  The  duty  of  the  Kansas  Pacific  Kailroad  Company  is  to  forward 
those  goods,  and  to  put  them  in  store  if  not  received  from  the  cars  by 
me,  or  by  the  Government.  And  you  will  find  upon  their  card  of  noti 
fication  of  the  arrival  of  the  goods  that  unless  received  within  twenty- 
four  hours  they  will  be  stored ;  all  of  their  notices  show  this/  They 


544 

did  not  store  them,  but  left  them  in  the  cars,  because  they  have  fre 
quently  and  invariably  requested  the  contractor  to  back  his  trains  down 
to  the  cars  to  receive  his  goods  from  the  cars  to  avoid  the  expense  of 
handling  the  goods  by  their  employes,  and  when  convenient  I  have  in 
variably  done  so.  I  would  take  my  trains  around  to  the  south  side  of  the 
railroad,  receive  the  goods  from  the  cars,  and  start  them  east.  Now, 
there  has  been  no  detention  of  these  goods,  because  I  would  not  start  a 
pound  of  annuity-goods  had  I.  been  here  myself,  unless  I  had  been  in- 
structed  to  do  so  myself  by  the  Department. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  the  annuity-goods  were  standing  here 
then  1 

A.  Mr.  Harris,  there  were  not  twenty-two  cars  full  of  goods,  but  there 
were  twenty-two  cars  having  annuity-goods  in  them  ;  they  were  all  an 
nuity-goods  ;  no  flour.  These  goods  have  been  shipped  ;  some  of  them 
are  now  being  loaded  on  the  trains.  None  of  those  goods  were  loaded 
on  the  trains  without  being  inspected,  to  my  knowledge.  They  could  not 
be  because  it  is  the  duty  of  the  storekeeper  to  weigh  every  package, 
because  he  could  not  otherwise  have  given  me  my  bill  of  lading.  It  is 
his  duty,  as  I  understand  it,  to  receive  all  packages  and  weigh  them  be 
fore  turning  them  over  to  me ;  and  when  he  loads  my  wagons,  I  must 
necessarily  reload  them.  1  am  paid  by  his  weight,  provided  that  weight 
holds  out  at  the  agency,  but  in  the  case  of  bacon  and  corn  there  is  a 
per  cent,  which  I  understood  to  be  allowed  for  shrinkage ;  that  per  cent, 
has  been  2J.  If  my  load  holds  out  within  2£  at  the  agency,  on  these 
two  articles,  my  way-bill  is  expected  to  pass".  The  storekeeper  never 
loaded  any  goods  without  weighing  them,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 
The  following  is  a  bill  of  lading : 

CHEYENNE,  July  16,  1875. 

Shipped,  in  good  order  and  condition,  by  D.  J.  McCann,  per  cattle  train  of  T.  M.  Sawyer, 
to  be  delivered  without  unnecessary  delay,  to  E.  A.  Howard,  United  States  Indian  agent,' 

Spotted  Tail  agency.  The  said  D.  J.  McCann  paid  the  freight  thereof  at  the  rate  of 

per  100  pounds. 

The  said  T.  M.  Sawyer  having  signed  three  bills  of  lading,  one  being  accomplished,  the 
others  to  stand  void. 

Marks:  E.  II.  Howard,  U.  S.Indian  agent,  Spotted  Tail  agency.  Articles,  461  sacks  of 
bacon  ;  weight,  57,312  pounds. 

T.  M.  SAWYER. 

This  way-bill  which  the  wTagon-master  delivered  to  the  agent,  and  in 
this  particular  case  the  indorsement  is  "  Spotted  Tail  agency,  Nebraska, 
Augusts,  1875.  Keceived  on  the  within  4til  sacks  54,987  pounds  bacon, 
leaving  a  discrepancy  of  2,325  pounds  between  amount  called  for  on 
bill  ot  lading  and  amount  received."  He  receipted  for  in  good  condition 
the  same  number  of  sacks,  but  did  not  receive  the  same  number  of 
pounds,  that  being  the  effect  of  shipping  new  smoked  bacon  in  hot 
weather.  That  loss  with  the  exception  of  the  shrinkage  falls  upon  the 
contractor  for  transportation,  and  the  bacon  costs  you,  laid  down  at 
Cheyenne,  $13.90  per  100  pounds.  I  will  be  allowed  2J  per  cent,  on 
that,  while  the  loss  was  over  4  per  cent.,  and  I  will  be  held  to  pay  the 
Government  the  difference. 

Q.  What  is  your  contract  for  transportation  between  Cheyenne  and 
Red  Cloud  ? 

A.  Between  Cheyenne  and  Eed  Cloud  it  is  $1.65.  Between  Chey 
enne  and  Spotted  Tail  agency  $1.75  per  100  pounds,  for  the  whole  dfs- 
tance,  for  this  year. 

Q.  Your  contract  last  year  was  what  ? 

A.  The  contract  last  year  was  $1.20  per  100  pounds  per  100  miles. 
This  year  it  is  for  the  whole  distance.  1  charge  for  two  hundred  and 


545 

twelve  miles,  amounting  to  over  $2.25  for  the  whole  distance  from 
Cheyenne  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Has  there  been  a  statement  and  an  adjustment  of  your  transpor 
tation  account  for  the  last  year  ? 

A.  There  has  not  been.  I  claim  that  I  am  entitled  to  two  hundred 
and  twelve  miles,  for  reasons  which  I  will  state  to  the  committee  if  you 
will  allow  me  to  do  so.  In  1871,  when  the  Ked  Cloud  agency  was  on 
the  Platte  River,  the  distance  as  fixed  by  the  Government  was  one 
hundred  and  thirty-two  miles ;  from  Cheyenne  to  the  Spotted  Tail 
agency,  then  called  the  Whetstone  agency,  the  distance  was  two 
hundred  and  twenty  miles  as  fixed  by  the  Government.  1  was  the  con 
tractor  for  the  Whetstone  agency,  and  Commissioner  Walker  of  the  In 
dian  Department,  having  traveled  over  the  route  from  Cheyenne  to 
that  agency,  allowed  two  hundred  and  twenty  miles,  and  payment  was 
made  accordingly.  In  1873  the  Ked  Cloud  agency  was  removed  from  its 
then  location  on  the  Platte  River,  to  its  present  location  on  the  White- 
River  ;  the  distance  as  reported  by  Inspector  Daniels  was  eighty  miles 
north.  The  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles  and  the  eighty  miles  as 
reported  by  Inspector  Daniels  made  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles. 
When  making  the  contract  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  after  the  removal, 
I  claimed  two  hundred  and  twenty  miles  as  having  been  allowed  me  by 
Commissioner  Walker,  in  1871  and  1872.  The  Department  called  the  dis 
tance  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles,  arid  eighty  miles,  and  insisted 
upon  fixing  that  in  the  contract  at  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles,  in 
stead  of  two  hundred  and  twenty  miles.  I  had  never  been  over  the 
route  in  person,  and  it  was  so  agreed.  Afterward,  in  1874,  I  think  early 
in  that  year,  it  was  claimed  by  the  then  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
that  the  distance  was  not  over  one  hundred  and  eighty-eight  miles,  in 
stead  of  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  as  specified  in  the  contract.  The 
matter  was  referred  to  the  Attorney-General  in  the  settlement  of  my 
accounts.  It  was  decided  "that  the  distance  having  been  fixed  by  the 
Government,  and  never  having  been  measured,  was  conjectural,  and 
that  the  payment  should  be  made  for  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  in 
accordance  with  the  contract ;  that  was  for  the  year  1874.  The  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior  claimed  that  if  the  distance  was  less  than  two  hun 
dred  and  twelve  miles,  as  stated  in  the  contract,  a  proportional  re 
duction  should  be  made ;  and  a  computation  was  made  in  the  Indian 
Office  of  what  the  difference  would  amount  to  from  the  time  that  this 
question  arose  until  the  end  of  the  fiscal  year.  The  difference  between 
two  hundred  and  twelve  and  one  hundred  and  eighty-eight  would  be 
twenty-four  miles,  and  the  freight  on  the  goods  carried  during  that 
period  of  time  was  suspended  ;  that  is,  the  amount  of  freight,  amount 
ing  to,  I  think,  in  the  neighborhood  of  $7,000.  It  was  agreed  iu 
L874,  for  the  fiscal  year  of  1874-'5,  that  the  distance  should  be  meas 
ured  with  an  odometer,  by  the  route  actually  traveled  by  the  trains. 
The  Government  caused  one  measurement  to  be  made,  and  the  distance 
was  found  to  be  by  that  route  over  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles.  I 
think  it  was  two  hundred  and  twenty-three  by  the  first  measurement. 
Instead  of  allowing  my  accounts  on  that,  all  of  my  transportation 
accounts  were  suspended  until  a  second  measurement  could  be  made ; 
and  in  the  second  measurement  the  distance  was  two  hundred  and  twenty- 
six  miles,  and  a  receipt  given  me  accordingly.  The  matter  was  still 
unsatisfactory  to  the  Department,  and  it  was  agreed  that  I  should 
receive  freight  on  the  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  for  all  goods  trans 
ported  up  to  that  time  ;  that  was  in  November.  I  received  no  freight- 
money  for  all  goods  transported  the  fiscal  year  ending  June  30,  1874, 
35  I  F 


546 

until  November  of  that  year,  and  tben  I  received  pay  at  two  hundred 
and  twelve  miles.  The  rivalry  then  arose  between  the  towns  of  Cheyenne 
and  Sidney,  on  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  as  to  the  distance  between 
the  respective  places  and  the  Indian  agencies  in  competing  for  the  busi 
ness  of  those  agencies.  Sidney  alleged  that  they  had  made  the  meas 
urements,  and  that  the  distance  was  one  hundred  and  sixty-three  miles 
from  there  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency.  That  was  the  first  allegation. 
Cheyenne  then  alleged  that  they  had  made  a  measurement,  and  that  the 
distance  was  some  one  hundred  and  forty-six  miles  in  a  direct  Hue  to  the 
agency.  Sidney  then  thought  that  they  would  do  one  better,  and  al 
leged  that  they  had  made  another  measurement,  and  that  the  distance  was 
one  hundred  and  forty-five  miles.  To  the  best  of  my  opinion  and  belief', 
none  of  those  measurements  were  made  in  good  faith,  and  I  am  informed 
that  not  one  of  them  was  made  in  the  routes  actually  traveled  by  trans 
portation-trains.  In  February,  1875,  I  addressed  a  communication  to 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  requested  that  a  ferry  might 
be  placed  across  the  Platte  River,  some  distance  below  the  old  Red  Cloud 
agency,  which  might  be  used  by  the  transportation-contractors,  by  the 
military,  and  for  communication  between  the  two  agencies,  and  Cheyenne 
and  Sidney.  The  same  communication  was  made  by  the  agents  of  the 
respective  agencies.  The  military  declined  to  indorse  it,  on  the  ground 
that  they  had  not  funds  to  pay  for  the  building  for  the  ferry.  During 
the  months  of  March,  April,  May,  June,  and  July  my  trains  have  been 
traveling  the  road  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  then  up  the  river  to  Fort 
Laramie,  paying  ferriage  at  Fort  Laramie  on  what  I  understood  to  be  a. 
Government  boat,  and  thence  to  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agen 
cies. 

What  that  distance  is  I  do  not  know,  but  I  have  held  Mr.  Charles  E. 
Clay  here  to  testify  before  the  commission  until  this  morning.  Mr.  Clay 
has  gone  with  his  train,  which  should  have  left  last  week  for  the  Spotted 
Tail  agency,  and  would  not  wait  any  longer,  but  he  has  handed  me  in 
pencil  a  statement  as  to  what  his  evidence  will  be:  "  To  the  old  Red  Cloud 
agency,  one  hundred  miles;  to  Fort  Laramie,  at  the  ferry,  thirty  miles; 
from  Fort  Laramie  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  by  the  route  which  he 
calls  *  going  down  White  River,'  eighty-eight  miles  f  and  in  making  up 
that  eighty-eight  miles,  he  stated  the  different  stoppages  which  would 
make  up  that  distance,  by  that  route  which  we  have  used  for  five  months 
out  of  the  year,  and  which  would  make,  by  Mr.  Clay's  statement,  two 
hundred  and  eighteen  miles.  This  is  the  distance  which  we  traveled  dur 
ing  the  season  of  high  water  of  the  Platte.  That  is  the  way  we  trav 
eled  last  year  and  are  going  this  year.  There  are  two  reasons  why 
they  take  the  eastern  and  more  roundabout  way,  instead  of  going  to 
Fort  Laramie  direct  by  the  mail-route.  First:  The  route  to  Fort  Lara 
mie  from  Cheyenne  by  the  mail-route  is  a  stiff  and  hard  road — hard  on 
cattle  especially.  Our  transportation  is  done  by  cattle,  and  it  is  very 
hard  on  the  feet  of  cattle ;  and  freighters  prefer  the  other  road  for  that 
reason.  Second :  Freighters  have  lost  a  great  deal  of  stock  by  the  weed 
known  as  the  poison-weed,  which  is  abundant  on  either  side  of  the  road 
between  here  and  the  Chug-water.  Again  :  The  lower  road  is  not  so  hilly. 
It  is  safer  for  heavily-loaded  trains  than  the  western  road.  But  in  the  dry 
season,  when  the  trains  ford  the  Platte  River,  near  the  old  Red  Cloud 
agency,  they  turn  immediately  down  the  river  to  the  east.  No  loaded 
train  has  ever  traveled  from  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  to  the  present 
agency  by  the  mail-route,  by  reason  of  the  heavy  sand  north  of  the  Platte 
River,c  between  the  Platte  'River  and  the  White  River.  I  have  seen  it 
stated  in  the  papers  that  we  did  not  measure  the  distance  by  the  mail- 


547 

route,  and  that  we  went  down  the  river  six  or  seven  miles.  I  have 
traveled  it  in  person  up  to  November  20,  1874,  and  know  that  no  train 
ever  left  the  Platte  River  at  a  less  distance  than  sixteen  miles  from  the 
old  Bed  Cloud  agency.  I  am.  informed  by  my  freighters  that  none  of 
them  ever  left  the  river  at  a  point  farther  west  at  no  time,  and  the  dis 
tance  from  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  to  the  point  of  departure  from  the 
Platte  River  is  from  sixteen  to  twenty  miles,  depending  upon  the  con 
dition  of  the  roads  at  or  near  that  point.  Now,  I  wish  to  submit  to  the 
commission  that  if  those  sixteen  miles  or  twenty  miles,  as  the  case  may 
be,  going  directly  east,  or  following  the  bank  of  the  river  from  the  old 
Red  Cloud  agency,  is  made  to  avoid  the  heavy  sand  divide  between  the 
two  rivers,  the  same  distance  must  necessarily  be  made  in  going  back. 
I  have  traveled  it  in  person,  and  I  have  traveled  the  mail-route  in 
person.  I  have  called  it  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  one  hundred 
miles,  and  from  there  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  if  you  go  by  Fort  Laramie 
and  from  there  to  the  present  Red  Cloud  agency,  one  hundred  and 
fifteen  miles,  by  going  by  the  eastern  detour,  and  that  is  the  road  over 
which  I  haul  uiy  freight.  I  wish,  again,  to  state  that  this  statement 
given  to  me  by  Mr.  Clay,  which  he  wishes  to  testify  to,  refers  to  a  road 
which  I  have  not  traveled  over,  wholly,  in  person. 

The  following-named  gentlemen  have  been  traveling  the  road  for  the 
last  two  years :  Richard  Dunn,  Charles  McEwen,  Charles  Lovejoy, 
Juan  Vigil.  My  contract  for  this  year  is,  for  the  whole  distance,  at  so 
much  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Has  that  balance  which  was  suspend,  been  paid  you  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  have  frequently  applied  for  it  but  it  has  never  been  paid. 
The  difficulties  of  a  contractor  for  transportation,  or  any  other  contractor, 
by  having  the  money  which  he  is  entitled  to  receive  suspended  every 
month,  and  often  for  many  mouths  at  a  time,  by  the  accounting  officers  of 
the  Government,  are  such  as  cannot  be  readily  understood  by  the  mem 
bers  of  this  commission.  In  a  country  where  money  is  worth  1J  and  2 
per  cent,  per  month,  the  suspension  of  twenty-five  or  thirty  or  forty 
thousand  dollars  for  months  is  a  great  loss  and  a  most  serious  incon 
venience. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  your  teams  travel  now,  under  your  new  contract,  the  same  route 
which  they  traveled  when  the  compensation  was  by  the  mile  ? 

A.  Until  within  a  few  days  the  trains  have  been  traveling  by  way  of 
Fort  Laramie,  to  avail  themselves  of  the  ferry  at  that  point ;  but  now  I 
understand  that  the  river  has  fallen  so  that  fording  can  be  accomplished 
at  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  then  they  will  travel  the  same  route 
which  we  call  the  eastern  detour,  instead  of  the  western.  That  state  of 
things  existed  under  the  old  contract.  The  putting  in  of  a  ferry  by  the 
Government,  at  an  expense  of  $3,000,  was  not  made,  and  all  employes, 
freight-contractors,  arid  agents  have  to  come  by  way  of  Fort  Laramie, 
or  else  cross  the  river  in  a  canoe  at  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  the  distance  to  be  from  Sidney  to  the 
Red  Cloud  agency  by  the  freight-route  ? 

A.  I  believe  it  to  be  one  hundred  and  sixty-seven  miles.  Sidney  is 
one  hundred  and  five  miles  east  of  Cheyenne  j'but  the  objection  to  that 
route  is  two  stretches  of  sand  or  dry  road — one  of  twenty-eight  miles 
and  one  of  thirty  miles ;  aud7  however  practicable  for  horses  and  mules, 
it  is  not  a  safe  route  for  cattle,  by  reason  of  the  want  of  water. 

Q.  You  have  objections  to  making  Sidney  the  point  of  departure  ? 


548 

A.  I  have  objection,  for  two  reasons  :  First,  the  railroad  company  has 
no  conveniences  at  Sidney  ;  and,  second,  in  crossing  those  two  stretches 
of  sandy  road  we  lose  a  great  many  cattle  for  the  want  of  water  in. 
the  dry  season. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  have  in  my  hand  a  letter,  dated  Cheyenne,  August  10r 
1874,  to  the  closing  paragraph  of  which  especially  I  wish  to  call  your 
attention.  But  I  will  read  the  letter. 

CHEYENNE,  WYOMING,  August  10,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  We  have  no  news  of  the  flour  as  yet,  further  than  a  telegram  from  the  agent 
at  Gilmore,  that  you  were  loading  one  car  on  Saturday.  This  lot  of  rive  cars  was  intended  to 
keep  the  agency  going  till  Martin  could  put  in  the  whole  of  his  5,000  sacks.  I  have  assured 
the  agent  that  this  should  go  forward  without  delay  ;  and  as  he  is  to  be  here  to-morrow,  I  fear 
he  will  be  out  of  patience.  Please  inform  me  just  when  we  may  depend  on  the  whole  amount. 
Yon  may  draw  on  me  at  thirty  days,  interest  added.  I  have  no  interest  in  the  matter,  further 
than  keeping  the  agency  supplied.  I  would  like  to  have  your  figures  on  5,500  sacks  for 
Whetstone  agency,  to  be  shipped  right  along  as  fast  as  you  can  manufacture  it.  It  is  for  the 
contractor  at  Saint  Paul,  and  he  offers  .$'2,  in  double  sacks — such  as  will  pass  inspection.  He 
is  offered  at  same  price  at  Sioux  City,  and  it  seems  to  me  we  ought  to  furnish  it  as  low  as 
they  can. 

The  object,  on  my  part,  is  to  secure  the  freight,  and  if  we  furnish  it  this  year  it  will 
necessarily  establish  this  as  the  point  of  supply,  and  we  may  make  something*on  it  hereafter. 
Do  the  best  you  can,  and  advise  me  in  regard  to  both  points  at  once. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J     McCANN. 

O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

I  would  like  an  explanation  of  it. 

WITNESS.  My  explanation  of  the  closing  paragraph  is  this  :  Mr. 
Merriman,  who  I  understood  to  be  the  contractor  for  flour,  to  be  delivered 
at  some  point,  say  Sioux  City,  for  the  Whetstone  agency  last  year,  came 
to  Cheyenne  about  August  10,  prior  to  the  writing  of  that  letter,  and 
applied  to  me  for  transportation  for  flour  from  Cheyenne  to  the  Whet 
stone  agency,  provided  he  could  secure  the  flour  as  cheaply  here  as  he 
could  at  Sioux  City.  I  gave  him  the  rate  for  transportation  from  here 
to  \Vhetstone  agency.  I  don't  recollect  now  what  that  rate  was,  but  it 
was  a  private  rate  between  the  contractor  for  flour  and  myself,  and  he 
gave  me  the  figures  at  which  he  was  offered  the  flour  at  Sioux  City,  and 
stated  that  he  thought  Nebraska  ought  to  furnish  the  flour  as  cheaply 
as  Iowa.  I  told  him  that  I  would  correspond  during  his  absence  with 
two  or  three  millers  on  the  line  between  this  and  Omaha.  I  think  you 
will  find  the  same  letter  to  Mr.  Koeuig  of  Grand  Island,  and  perhaps  to 
John  H.  Green  of  Omaha,  asking  them  to  deliver  the  flour  as  low  as  Mr. 
Merriman's  bid  at  Sioux  City,  and  in  conclusion  saying,  "  we  may 
make  something  upon  it  hereafter/'  That  is,  I  meant  the  millers  of  Ne 
braska  ought  to  furnish  the  flour  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Is  it  nevertheless  true  that  the  Government  loses  the  amount  of 
freight  between  Sidney  and  Cheyenne? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  the  rate  is  the  same — that  is,  the  railroad  rate  from  Omaha 
is  the  same  to  Cheyenne  as  it  is  to  Sidney. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  from  your  own  observation,  how  much  an  ox  will 
drink  when  he  is  very  thirsty  ? 

A.  I  have  weighed  cattle  twelve  hours  after  feeding  and  watering, 
then  watered  them  and  M'eighed  them,  and  the  difference  has  been  from 
thirty-five  to  forty-five  pounds  per  head  on  herds  of  one  and  two  hun 
dred  cattle.  I  once  delivered  a  herd  of  165  stall-fed  cattle  at  East  Ne 
braska  City,  after  they  had  been  allowed  to  drink  freely  out  of  the 
river,  and  the  question  of  weight  arose.  I  offered  to  allow  thirty  pounds 


549 

per  head,  and  the  buyers  demanding  sixty  pounds  per  head,  it  was  re 
ferred  to  cattle-dealers,  and  forty  pounds  per  head  were  deducted  from 
the  gross  weight. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  furnish  any  harness  for  the  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  furnished  one  harness  for  Eed  Cloud  himself.  In  regard  to  the 
articles  spoken  of  by  Barclay  White,  I  wish  to  state  to  the  commission 
that  those  articles  came  in  from  the  north,  and  were  not  under  my  con 
tract,  and  that  I  am  not  responsible  for  the  delay,  they  being  incidental 
shipments  made  by  the  Department,  and  of  which  I  had  no  notice,  and 
for  which  I  was  not  responsible. 


The  following  are  other  letters  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford 
which  are  introduced  as  evidence: 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  August  14,1874. 

DEAR  SIR:  I  have  your  favor  of  the  12th  instant.  Dr.  Saville,  the  agent,  is  here.  He  is 
not  at  liberty  to  modify  the  contract  for  flour  in  any  respect.  The  contractor  has  put  in  1,775 
sacks  at  cost,  ($2.  50)  delivered  here,  and  has  not  made  a  cent,  but  has  lost  money.  I  do 
not  know  that  I  can  give  you  the  5,500,  at  $2,  but  suppose  I  can.  I  have  no  interest  in 
the  matter,  whatever,  but  want  to  keep  the  agencies  supplied.  I  will  take  one  car  extra,  that 
is,  one  car  over  and  above  the  five  cars,  at  $2.10,  to  be  delivered  September  10.  It  must 
contain  225  sacks  in  order  to  fill  out  the  2,000  sacks. 

Yours,  truly,  . 

D.  J.  McC  ANN. 
O.P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

CHEYENNE,  WYG.,  August  20,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  have  your  two  favors  of  the  17th  and  18th  instant.  We  cannot  make  a 
contract  for  the  5,500  sacks  flour  till  we  hear  from  the  Department  on  the  subject.  lam 
confident  we  shall  need  it,  but  we  must  take  our  chances.  You  seem  to  labor  under  the  im 
pression  that  the  flour  already  purchased  is  for  my  account.  It  is  for  Marttin,  and  I  allow 
him  the  benefit  of  my  contract  with  the  Union  Pacific  to  put  it  in.  I  have  not  received  a 
cent  on  the  flour,  and  will  not  till  we  can  collect  in  Washington.  You  had  better  draw 
for  the  three  cars  at  thirty  days,  and  I  will  remit  for  the  last  car  ordered.  Can  you  put  in 
10  sacks  good  corn-meal  in  the  last  car,  in  lieu  of  the  same  number  sacks  flour  ?  Do  so, 
if  you  can. 

Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANN  . 
O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  August  26,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  have  accepted  your  draft  for  $466.40  and  $5.63  interest  and  discount, 
making  -$472.03,  which  amount  I  charge  you.  Seventeen  sacks  of  car  5046  has  been 
rejected,  and  all  the  miscellaneous  lot  which  was  evidently  put  in  to  fill  out  the  car 
load.  I  fear  the  other  two  cars  will  be  more  closely  inspected  on  this  account.  The 


on  8466.40,  33  days  =  $4.27.     Have  you  the  sample  of  flour  furnished  by  you  to  the 
Department  in  June?     I  can  send  you  the  sample  we  have  here,  and  which  will  guide 
the  inspection,  or  you  can  arrange  to  have  the  flour  inspected  as  loaded  by  Inspector 
Clarkson.    This  is  upon  the  supposition  that  you  contract  for  the  2,275  sacks. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANN. 

O.  P.  HURFORD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 

CHEYENNE  WYO.,  August  27,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Yours  of  the  24th  is  at  hand  and  contents  noted.  I  return  memoranda 
herewith.  The  arrangements  you  propose  would  not  be  satisfactory.  The  object  is 
to  have  the  flour  come  under  my  annual  freight  contract  with  the  Government  ;  I 
have  no  flour  contract,  and  am  only  authorized  to  buy  so  as  to  deliver  under  my 
contract  for  transportation.  The  trouble  with  your  bank  is,  that  I  am  doing  busi 
ness  with  the  Omaha  and  not  with  them.  I  owe  them  nor  any  other  party  a  dollar  on  any 
of  my  contracts  here,  past  or  present  ;  and  the  trouble  with  them  and  P.  S.  Wilson  is  that 
I  do  not  see  fit  to  do  business  with  either  of  them.  If  this  contract  is  desirable  to  you  and 
you  see  fit  to  undertake  it,  you  can  ship  to  "  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent,  in 
care  of  D.  J.  McCann,"  and  let  the  charges  follow  the  flour,  so  that  the  flour  and  freight 


550 

will  all  be  paid  together.  The  three  days'  draft  was  intended  to  allow  time  for  inspection.  In 
the  latter  case  we  will  inspect  and  pay,  providing  the  flour  passes — which  it  will  if  you 
send  of  your  own  manufacture  and  of  as  good  a  quality  as  you  have  heretofore. 

Please  telegraph  me  if  you  do  not  desire  to  furnish  on  these  terms,  as  I  desire  to  close  with 
other  parties.    If  you  do  accept  send  memorandum-agreement  by  return  mail. 
Yours,  truly, 

D.  ,1.  McCAXN. 
O.   P.   HURFORD,  Esq.,   Omahn. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  October  23,  1874. 

DEAR  8m  :  Yours  of  yesterday  received.  Will  pay  draft  as  soou  as  presented,  and 
thank  you  for  attending  to  the  matter. 

You  can  have  ten  days  to  put  in  the  1,101  sacks,  but  do  ship  two  cars  immediately.  I 
thought  it  was  on  the  road.  Dr.  Irwin  is  out  of  flour.  The  whole  of  it  must  go  forward 
as  soon  as  you  can  possibly  ship  it.  Put  all  your  force  at  work.  We  will  most  likely 
order  all  you  can  ship  for  some  time  to  come.  Ship  two  cars  at  once. 

Forty-eight  sacks  of  your  flour  received  by  White  has  been  rejected.  Grind  it -a  little- 
finer. 

Yours,  truly, 

D.  J.  McCANX. 
O.  P.  HURFOKD,  Esq.,  Omaha. 


TESTIMONY^OF  GEORGE  SHEIDLEY. 

By  tbe  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Sheidley,  please  state  your  place  of  residence  and  busi 
ness. 

Answer.  My  Lome  is  in  San  Antonio,  Texas.  We  are  starting  a  cat 
tle-ranch  in  this  country.  There  are  three  brothers  of  us,  but  I  da 
most  of  the  business.  Our  business  is  driving  cattle  from  Texas  ;  we 
have  been  engaged  in  it  since  1871. 

Q.  Do  jou  remember  selling  Mr.  Bosler  some  cattle  last  season  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  sold  him  three  thousand  head  during  the  season  of 
1874.  The  season  ends  about  the  1st  of  September. 

Q.  Were  they  cattle  which  you  had  driven  up  that  season  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir ;  they  were  cattle  which  had  been  driven  up  and  had  not 
been  wintered  here.  They  got  a  few  wintered  cattle — about  one  hun 
dred.  Most  of  the  cattle  they  got  Efrom  us  were  steers  ;  I  think  there 
were  about  three  hundred  cows.  We  drove  nearly  all  beef-cattle  last 
year — Texas  steers,  four  years  old  and  upward.  *  They  got  no  stock 
cattle ;  we  kept  them  ourselves.  We  took  out  all  less  than  four 
years  old  and  wintered  them  here.  We  had  a  herd  of  three  thousand 
two  hundred,  all  under  four  years  old.  We  have  sold  him  about  six 
thousand  head  this  year.  They  were  steers  and  cows.  The  steers  were 
four  years  old  and  upward.  We  delivered  these  cattle  on  what  is  called 
the  Horse  Creek  Ranch,  on  the  north  side  of  the  Platte,  this  year.  The 
others  were  delivered  a  little  above,  about  where  Chimney  Rock  is,  on 
the  North  Platte.  They  were  delivered  all  along,  wherever  their  camp 
happened  to  be. 

Q.  Have  you  sufficient  knowledge  of  the  weight  of  cattle  to  be  able 
to  say,  with  any  degree  of  certainty,  what  would  be  the  average  weight 
of  the  herd  of  cattle  you  sold  Mr.  Bosler  last  season  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  they  would  average  one  thousand  pounds ;  they 
were  all  in  good  order,  and  were  about  as  good  cattle  as  came  up  with 
the  Texas  trains.  They  were  more  than  an  average — above  the  average. 
They  were  four  years  old  and  upward.  We  had  no  "  scalawags  "  among 
them. 


551 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Slieidley,  I  understand  that  you  have  not  only  driven 
cattle  up  here  from  Texas,  but  you  have  wintered  cattle  here. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is,  we  have  had  them  here.  We  do  not  stay  here 
ourselves;  we  have  men  bere. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  say  what  is  usually  the  condition  of  cattle  on 
the  range  in  this  country  as  late  as  along  in  the  middle  of  Novem 
ber?  Are  they  in  as  good  order  as  at  any  time  in  the  season  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  shipped  some  last  fall  to  Chicago  for  beef,  which  came 
off  this  range,  and  it  is  not  as  good  a  range  as  farther  north,  and  they 
were  in  good  condition.  They  had  been  driven  up  the  year  before  in 
the  same  herd  with  those  we  had  sold  to  Mr.  Bosler.  They  were  cattle 
we  had  in  our  herd,  and  were  in  good  order,  sufficiently  so  to  ship  to 
market. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  for  your  cattle  last  year  ? 

A.  We  got  $18  for  beeves  and  $11  for  cows  last  season.  The  average 
weight  for  this  season  is  about  the  same,  if  not  a  little  heavier  than  last 
year.  I  think  I  had  heavier  cattle  this  year.  I  had  some  bigger  steers. 
1  took  him  some  the  other  day  which  1  know  would  weigh  eleven  hun 
dred  pounds  gross. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what  time  in  1874  you  sold  Mr.  Bosler  these  cattle  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  July. 

Q.  Had  you  any  opportunity  of  seeing  his  entire  herd  during  the  fall 
of  1874  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  but  I  have  seen  a  good  many  of  his  cattle  this  year ;  some 
before  he  received  them,  and  some  after  he  received  them.  I  think  I 
saw  about  five  thousand,  and  they  were  an  average  lot  of  Texas  cattle  ; 
all  grown  cattle.  The  cows  would  weigh  nine  hundred  pounds,  and  the 
steers  about  eleven  hundred  or  one  thousand. 

Q.  What  did  yon  get  for  your  cattle  this  year  ! 

A.  For  part  of  them  I  got  $20  for  beeves,  and  for  some  of  the  beeves 
I  got  $18,  and  for  the  cows  I  received  $11.  I  sold  six  thousand  head. 
1  don't  recollect  how  many  cows  were  delivered  this  year.  I  think  we 
delivered  him  three  thousand  beeves,  but  1  don't  recollect  the  number  of 
cows.  There  will  be  about  four  thousand  beeves  and  the  balance  cows, 
but  no  young  cattle.  I  have  never  seen  cattle  here  that  could  be  called 
skin  and  bones;  cattle  from  this  time  now  on  will  keep  getting  better 
until  November  or  December. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Have  you  seen  the  Mabry  herd  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  seen  a  good  many  of  them  before  they  got  them, 
and  I  have  seen  a  herd  of  three  thousand  head. 

Q.  What  per  cent,  should  you  think  were  cows  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you  that.  I  did  not  look  at  them  closely.  The 
first  herd  I  saw  of  one  thousand  head,  I  should  judge  the  largest  half  of 
them  were  steers,  and  they  were  a  very  nice  lot  of  cattle.  About  the 
others  I  cannot  tell  you.  The  portion  I  saw  were  mostly  steers,  and 
the  last  lot  I  saw  were  mostly  steers ;  the  steers  are  generally  in  the 
lead,  and  those  I  saw  were  nice-looking  cattle. 

Q.  What  part  of  Texas  do  your  cattle  come  from  ? 

A.  The  southwestern  part  of  Texas. 

Q.  How  do  they  compare  with  cattle  from  the  eastern  or  southern 
part  of  the  State'? 

A.  Well,  I  think  they  are  better  cattle  than  those  from  the  southern 


552 

and  eastern  part  of  the  State  ;  they  come  off  a  better  range,  with  better 
grass,  and  are  generally  in  better  flesh. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  the  cattle  you  sold  this  year,  cows  and  steers, 
would  average  9 

A.  Well,  I  should  think  the  cows,  on  an  average,  would  go  nine  hun 
dred  pounds;  that  is  my  judgment  about  it ;  and  the  steers  will  go  ten 
hundred  and  over;  taking  them  right  up  off  the  grass,  without  water, 
and  without  lotting  them,  they  would  average  that  much.  I  shipped 
last  year  to  Chicago  the  same  class  of  cattle,  which  averaged  nine  hun 
dred  and  sixty  pounds,  and  they  were  not  so  large.  Bosler  won't  take 
small  cattle;  he  won't  take  a  steer  that  will  wreigh  less  than  nine  hun 
dred  pounds.  None  of  the  cattle  I  sent  to  Chicago  were  over  four  years 
old.  The  first  herd  which  I  took  up,  Bosler  picked  out  the  small  cattle 
and  drove  them  down  to  his  range  to  keep.  He  said  they  would  not  do 
to  take  up  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  sell  him  the  smaller  cattle  at  a  less  price  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  at  a  less  price. 

Q.  How  much  f 

A.  Well,  he  got  them  at  what  that  kind  of  cattle  brings  out  here,  ten 
to  sixteen  dollars  for  two  to  three  year  olds. 

Q.  Have  you  any  interest  in  the  contract  of  Mr.  Mabry  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  none  whatever. 

Q.  Had  you  any  arrangement  with  Mr.  Mabry  that  he  should  sell 
your  cattle  for  you  in  New  York  last  year? 

A.  Well,  if  there  was,  he  made  it  with  my  brother.  I  am  in  no  way 
connected  with  Mabry.  I  sold  him  some  cows  last  year ;  wre  deal  with 
with  him  here.  We  brought  here  about  twenty-three  thousand  cattle 
this  year. 

Q.  How  much  do  these  cattle  cost  you  before  you  start  them  in 
Texas  ? 

A.  Well,  they  cost  different  prices.  We  pay  for  them  here,  and  get 
them  from  different  men. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  for  cows  and  four-year-old  steers  ? 

A.  We  pay  $9  for  cows  delivered  on  the  Arkansas  River,  and  $16  to 
$17  for  steers.  The  Arkansas  is  in  Kansas.  We  do  not  buy  them  in 
Texas,  but  we  buy  them  to  be  delivered  at  the  Great  Bend  of  the  Arkan 
sas.  Heretofore  we  bought  them  and  drove  them  ourselves,  but  this 
year  we  bought  them  delivered. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  would  be  the  price  of  these  cattle  there  in 
Texas. 

A.  The  price  there  a  year  ago  was  about  $7  in  gold  for  the  cows  and 
$12  in  gold  for  the  steers.  This  year  we  did  buy  one  herd,  and  paid 
$13  for  beeves  ;  and  that  is  the  only  instance  wherein  I  knew  the  price, 
and  that  we  drove. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  From  your  experience  as  a  cattle-dealer,  do  you  think  it  possible 
for  a  man  to  furnish  beef  delivered  at  the  Indian  agencies  every  mouth 
in  the  year,  in  due  proportion,  at  $2.47  per  hundred  pounds,  on  the  hoof, 
and  make  any  money  out  of  it  ? 

A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question.  It  would  be  a  mere  matter  of 
figures.  1  don't  know  what  his  expenses  are,  and  have  no  experience 
in  that  way. 


553 


TESTIMONY  OF  MAJOR  T.  H.  STANTON. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  You  are  a  paymaster  in  the  Army,  I  believe? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Major,  were  you  at  Red  Cloud  agency  last  November? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  issue  of  beef  made  there  about  the  middle  of  No 
vember. 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  see  the  beef-cattle  that  were  received  there  last  No 
vember  ? 

A.  I  saw  some  cattle  that  were  there.  I  saw  the  herd  which  came 
up  to  be  issued  in  November. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  observe  that  herd  of  cattle  ? 

A.  Not  specially  or  particularly  ;  no. 

Q.  Could  vou  say  of  the  beef-cattle  that  in  anv  way  they  were  poor  and 
thin  ? 

A.  Well,  they  looked,  some  of  them,  thin,  but  in  a  fair  condition. 

Q.  What  kind  of  weather  was  it  at  that  time  ? 

A.  Very  severe  cold  weather.  They  had  a  severe  snow-storm  while 
I  was  there. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  cattle  weighed,  or  any  of  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  be  able  to  say  whether  those  cattle  were  of  average 
size  or  not  $ 

A.  They  were  small,  thin  cattle  that  were  issued  to  the  tribes  there, 
I  remember. 

Q.  Were  they  as  large  as  those  of  the  ordinary  herds  of  Texas  beef- 
cattle  which  they  have  in  this  country  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir  ;  1  should  say  they  were. 

Q.  WTere  you  there  at  the  time  of  the  issue  of  annuity-goods,  such  as 
blankets  and  dry-goods  ? 

A.  I  do  not  think  there  wrere  any  annuity-goods  issued  there  at  that 
time.  I  don't  remember  anything  of  the  sort  in  November. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  supplies  there  furnished  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     I  was  present  at  an  issue  of  supplies. 

Q.  Did  you  observe  the  coffee  which  they  had  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  coffee  was  it  ? 

A.  I  thought  it  was  the  poorest  coffee  I  had  ever  seen.  It  had  black 
and  impertect  grains,  and  pebbles  and  gravel,  mixed  up  with  it,  I  re 
member. 

Q.  Did  you  observe  it  close  enough  to  say  if  there  was  any  consider 
able  portion  of  it  which  was  unfit  for  use  ? 

A.  I  should  say  it  was  all  unfit  for  use — that  which  I  saw  issued. 
There  were  no  whole  or  perfect  grains  in  it.  Taking  it  as  a  mass  and 
judging  from  the  coffee  issued  to  the  Army  as  a  standard,  I  would  say 
it  was  unfit  for  use. 

Q.  Can  you  say  how  it  compares  with  the  coffee  which  is  sold  in  com 
mon  stores  in  this  country  to  the  poorer  class  of  people  ? 

A.  Well,  it  is  very  much  inferior.  There  are  two  grades  of  coffee 
which  they  use  in  the  Army,  one  which  they  sell  to  the  officers  and  the 
other  is  issued  to  the  troops.  One  is  Java  and  the  other  is  Rio.  If  I 


554 

was  to  pick  over  the  coffee  for  use  I  think  I  would  have  to  throw  away 
two-thirds  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  the  sugar  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  sugar  was  it  ? 

A.  Well,  it  was  a  very  coarse  quality  of  brown  sugar,  and  seemed  to 
me  to  have  dirt  in  it. 

Q.  Did  you  taste  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.     It  was  gritty.     That  is  all  I  discovered. 

Q.  Was  that  all  the  defect  you  saw  in  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  all  that  I  remember  now. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  flour  that  was  issued  '? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  flour  was  that? 

A,  The  flour  was  very  dark  and  poor  •  I  should  say  of  a  very  poor 
quality. 

Q.  Did  it  seem  to  be  made  of  sound  wheat  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  could  not  have  been  made  of  sound  wheat.  I  imagine. 
It  smelled  bad ;  had  a  sour  smell ;  not  a  smell,  either,  of  being  in  a 
wet  sack  ;  but  it  seemed  to  me  to  be  the  result  of  bad  wheat.  I  do  not 
know  what  was  in  it,  but  it  seemed  as  if  it  was  made  from  buckwheat — 
full  of  black  specks,  as  though  there  might  have  been  a  portion  of  it 
buckwheat.  I  could  not  tell  exactly  what  it  was.  I  do  not  think  it 
would  make  sweet  or  wholesome  bread  lit  for  any  one  to  eat. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  evidence  upon  the  sacks  which  showed  that  it  had 
been  inspected  ? 

A.  There  were  no  brands  or  any  marks  upon  the  sacks  at  all.  I  re 
member  seeing  upon  some  of  the  bags  the  letters  U.  S.  I.  D. 

Q.  Did  you  sample  more  than  one  sack  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  looked  at  a  great  number  of  the  sacks,  and  they  were 
all  of  about  the  same  quality.  I  was  there  about  a  half  a  day.  I  saw  some 
pork  issued  there,  and  it  was  very  thin  and  poor.  A  great  deal  of  it 
looked  as  if  it  was  half  rotten.  1  smelled  it,  and  it  smelled  bad,  and 
seemed  to  be  spoiled.  I  saw  some  of  the  tobacco  that  was  issued.  I 
never  use  tobacco  except  in  a  cigar,  and  could  not  say  much  about  it, 
except  that  the  plugs  were  very  wet  and  heavy  ;  you  could  take  a  plug 
and  bend  it  double  and  it  woufd  not  break. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  plugs  opened  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  No  further  than  that  they  were  taken  up  and  bent  double 
without  breaking.  I  did  not  see  any  plugs  opened. 

Q.  Did  you  see  while  there  any  impropriety  in  the  conduct  of  the 
agent  or  any  of  his  employes? 

A.  The  agent  himself  was  not  present  at  that  issue  of  supplies  ;  the 
issue  was  made  by  clerks  entirely,  and  it  seemed  to  me  that  there  was 
no  method  or  system  by  which  it  could  be  ascertained  how  much  was 
issued  to  the  Indians.  They  did  not  weigh  what  was  issued.  I  was  in 
side  the  warehouse  with  the  clerks,  and  witnessed  the  whole  issue.  It 
seemed  to  me  as  though  there  was  no  way  of  telling  whether  the  Indians 
got  their  full  supply,  or  whether  they  did  not ;  and  when  the  issue  was 
completed,  it  would  be  impossible  to  tell  whether  they  had  received 
more  or  less.  No  sugar  was  weighed  ;  the  flour  was  in  sacks  ;  the  bacon 
was  not  weighed. 

Q.  How  was  the  sugar  dealt  out  ? 

A.  An  Indian  would  come  up  with  a  card  which  purported  to  say  that 


555 

he  was  entitled  to  draw  rations  for  so  many  Indians  ;  they  would  gather 
up  a  sack  of  flour  and  toss  it  out  to  him,  and  a  piece  of  bacon  would 
also  be  thrown  to  him  ;  the  sugar  would  be  taken  up  in  a  shovel  and 
passed  up  to  the  counter  and  the  squaw  would  take  it  in  her  apron  or 
in  a  sack,  or  in  a  blanket.  I  saw  a  squaw  take  up  her  blanket,  and 
they  would  toss  the  sugar  into  it.  The  sugar  was  shoveled  by  a  scoop. 
1  don't  know  whether  the  number  of  scoops  was  counted  ;  they  would 
dip  their  scoop  into  the  barrel  and  throw  out  whatever  they  pleased. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  the  scoops  were  not  counted? 

A.  I  do  not;  to  me  it  seemed  as  if  nothing  was  weighed,  and  they 
could  not  have  been  accurate,  because  sometimes  the  scooops  were  full, 
and  sometimes  they  were  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  those  men  are  experts  in  handling  these  things 
and  can  tell  exactly  how  much  each  scoop  will  hold  ? 

A.  I  do  not,  but  they  could  not  be  accurate.  It  seemed  to  me  that 
the  system  adopted  by  General  Crook  for  the  Apaches  would  have  been 
far  better  when  he  issued  to  the  Indians  there,  which  was  every  fifteen 
days.  The  Indians  assembled  at  the  stockade  and  were  counted  by  two 
or  three  officers,  and  the  actual  number  of  Indians  present  verified,  and 
rations  were  issued  to  the  actual  number  present — so  many  pounds  of 
beef,  so  many  pounds  of  corn,  according  to  the  number  there.  There 
were  fifteen  hundred  Indians  there,  and  every  Indian  had  to  be  present. 

Q.  How  could  that  be  done  with  fifteen  thousand  wild  Indians  scat 
tered  over  a  country  fifty  to  three  hundred  miles  distant  from  the 
agency  ? 

A.  They  ought  not  to  be  scattered.  I  think  it  possible  to  feed  the 
Indians  who  come  to  be  fed,  and  those  who  do  not  come  should  not  be 
fed.  I  think  they  all  should  be  present  on  the  issue-day. 

Q.  How  would  it  do  for  the  chiefs  to  come  and  receive  the  rations  for 
each  family  or  band  ? 

A.  That  would  do  very  well  if  the  exact  number  of  his  family  were 
known;  if  they  were  first  registered,  and  the  actual  number  ascertained. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Major,  have  you  read  Professor  Marsh's  statement  or  charges  in 
reference  to  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  are  there  any  matters  as  stated  in  that  pamphlet  of  Profes- 
sor  Marsh  about  which  you  can  give  us  any  information,  any  further  than 
what  you  have  stated  ? 

A.  There  are  a  great  many  points  about  which  I  cannot  speak,  be 
cause  I  know  nothing  about  them.  He  states  that  I  have  said  that  I 
saw  Indians  in  a  starving  condition,  and  eating  their  ponies  ;  that  is  the 
only  thing  he  says  I  saw.  I  did  see  that ;  it  was  on  the  Bordeaux 
Creek,  this  side  of  Spotted  Tail,  about  ten  miles.  They  were  the  Brule 
Sioux.  It  was  in  March  last. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  many  Indians  were  there  when  you  saw  this  ? 

A.  Well,  they  were  camped  up  and  down  the  creek.  I  don't  know 
how  many. 

Q.  Did  you  know  anything  of  the  cause  of  the  scarcity  of  provisions, 
there  at  that  time  ? 

A.  I  did  not  know  the  cause  of  it.    I  knew  there  was  a  scarcity. 

Q,  Were  you  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  at  that  time. 


556 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  Indians  there  said  they  had  not  had  any  beef  for 
forty-five  days,  and  those  were  the  Indians  who  were  starving'.  The 
Army  officers  at  Spotted  Tail  said  that  it  was  true  that  the  Indians  had 
not  been  issued  beef  for  forty-five  days,  and  that  they  were  starving. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  agent  at  Spotted  Tail  on  that  trip  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  saw  the  acting  agent,  Mr.  Willard  5  he  did  not  say 
anything  about  the  scarcity  of  supplies  there. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  matters  in  Professor  Marsh's  statement  about 
which  you  can  give  us  any  other  information,  or  can  you  refer  us  to 
other  parties,  who  can  give  us  information  ? 

A.  Well,  there  are  men  here  in  town  who  know  more  about  these 
things  than  I  do. 

Q.  Please  name  them. 

A.  I  had  a  letter  from  a  gentleman  here  in  town,  who  was  very  anx 
ious  to  have  this  commission  know  about  the  management  of  affairs  at 
Ked  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and  who  was  also  very  anxious  not 
to  have  his  name  mentioned  in  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  person  who  would  be  likely  to  give  us 
any  information  ? 

A.  I  have  the  names  of  some  other  parties,  and  I  will  send  them  over 
to  you. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  will  be  very  much  obliged  for  the  names  of  these 
parties,  or  any  other  persons  who  can  give  us  any  information. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  You  have  had  an  opportunity  of  observing  the  general  condition 
of  things  at  Eed  Cloud  $ 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have. 

Q.  Will  you  state  what  facts  have  come  within  your  own  observation, 
and  what  impressions  you  have  received  from  them  ? 

A.  From  the  issues  which  I  have  seen  made  to  the  Indians,  and  the 
management  of  affairs  there,  and  the  expressions  of  the  feelings  of  the 
Indians  in  this  matter,  it  seemed  to  me  that  there  was  no  system  or 
method  in  the  Department  there,  as  compared  with  that  in  use  in  the 
Army,  so  far  as  it  relates  to  responsibility  for  public  property  and 
funds.  As  I  said  before,  it  seemed  to  me  that  there  was  no  way  to  tell 
to  how  many  Indians  they  issued  supplies,  or  what  quantity  they  issued 
to  them  ;  there  was  no  check  upon  it ;  it  was  generally  done  by  clerks, 
and  some  of  them  I  know  to  be  bad  men,  or  at  least  to  have  bad  repu 
tations. 

Q.  Are  those  men  now  employed  there  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  they  are  now  employed  there.  There  was  no 
system  used  there  like  that  in  the  Army;  no  accountability  for  sup 
plies,  &c. 

By  Mr,  HARRIS  : 

Q.  How  manv  issues,  such  as  you  have  described,  have  you  witnessed 
at  Ked  Cloud  f 

A.  Well,  I  have  been  present  at  a  number.  I  don't  recollect  how 
many  ;  perhaps  half  a  dozen. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  it  is  claimed  by  those  clerks  that  in  bacon  they 
can  judge  within  half  a  pound,  by  lifting  it,  how  much  it  will  weigh  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  it.  I  saw  bacon  issued  in  slices,  and 
sometimes  they  would  issue  it  in  whole  pieces.  I  don't  know  that  they 
«laim  to  be  experts  in  guessing  it.  The  tobacco  is  issued  in  plugs. 
Flour  is  issued  in  whole  sacks,  not  generally  broken.  The  only  articles 
which  are  issued  that  way,  and  which  should  be  weighed,  in  my  judg- 


557 

merit,  are  sugar,  bacon,  coffee,  arid  beans,  none  of  which  are  weighed. 
Everything  is  weighed  in  the  Army.  Beans  generally  come  in  bags  and 
are  issued  out  in  so  many  pounds.  I  did  not  know  what  the  scoops  con 
tained  in  weight.  They  were  not  weighed. 

Q.  Well,  now,  in  regard  to  the  Indians  eating  their  ponies,  how  many 
Indians  did  you  know,  from  your  own  observation,  were  starving  for  food 
and  were  eating  their  ponies? 

A.  I  was  camped  on  the  Bordeaux,  and  there  were  perhaps  thirty 
lodges  in  the  Indian  camp  where  they  were  eating  those  ponies.  They 
were  all  eating  pony-meat.  They  had  a  number  of  ponies  and  were  eat 
ing  them  ;  there  were  perhaps  two  hundred  Indians.  I  saw  the  ponies 
that  they  were  eating.  I  saw  them  cutting  the  meat  out  of  the  ponies. 

Q.  Now  you  have  said  the  Army  officers  told  you  the  same  thing;  do 
you  know  w7hat  means  the  officers  had  for  ascertaining  that  fact  ? 

A.  Well,  they  were  stationed  there,  and  I  had  no  reason  to  doubt 
their  word,  and  they  told  of  it.  I  think  I  remember  of  their  saying, 
also,  that  the  appropriation  for  the  fiscal  year  ending  June  30  was  ex 
hausted,  and  there  would,  probably,  be  no  more  cattle  issued. 

Q.  What  officers  told  you  this  ? 

A.  Captain  Sartorius,  of  the  Third  Cavalry,  told  me  this.  Lieutenant 
Rogers,  of  the  Ninth  Infantry,  also  told  me  about  it.  Captain  Sar- 
torius  told  me  there  had  been  no  issue  for  forty -five  days.  I  did  not 
ask  Mr.  Willard,  the  clerk,  about  it.  I  had  no  conversation  with  him 
on  the  subject,  but  I  told  the  officers  there  at  the  post,  and  they  said 
there  had  been  no  beef  issued  there  for  forty-five  days.  I  did  not  speak 
to  the  Indian  agent  or  to  any  of  his  clerks  about  the  Indians  starving 
and  eating  their  ponies.  They  would  not  eat  their  ponies  unless  they 
were  starving.  I  thought  they  were  eating  them  to  keep  from  starving. 
I  saw  they  had  nothing  to  eat  except  the  ponies  in  their  lodges.  When 
beef  has  been  issued  it  is  generally  lying  about  their  tepees.  They  were 
short  of  other  supplies  too.  They  had  no  flour,  coffee,  or  bacon.  *  I  saw 
no  dead  Indians.  I  saw  no  Indians  sick  from  the  want  of  food.  I 
heard  a  great  many  of  them  say  that  they  were  very  hungry,  and  they 
were  holding  their  hands  over  their  stomachs.  I  did  not  make  this 
statement  to  Professor  Marsh.  He  has  seen  it  in  the  newspapers. 
When  I  came  back  the  agent  of  the  Associated  Press  at  Cheyenne 
asked  me  what  I  had  seen,  and  I  told  him  of  these  things. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  correspondence  with  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  I  had  letters  from  him  every  week.  It  is  very  likely  I  might  have 
told  him  this.  I  had  communications  with  Professor  Marsh  before  that 
time.  He  went  with  me  to  the  lied  Cloud  agency.  I  invited  him  from 
New  Haven  to  come  oat  here  and  go  with  me  to  the  fossil  region  we  had 
discovered  some  time  before.  He  was  pursuing  that  study,  and  he  went 
along  with  me  in  my  mess  to  Red  Cloud.  He  armed  an  expedition  there 
himself.  I  did  not  go  with  him  from  Red  Cloud.  I  went  on  to  Spotted 
Tail.  I  was  present  with  him  at  the  issue  of  supplies  in  November. 
Major  Bart  was  with  me. 

Q.  Was  Major  Burt  present  with  you  at  the  time  you  saw  the  herd  of 
cattle  driven  in  ? 

A.  I  think  he  was.  There  was  Major  Burt,  General  Bradley,  some 
officers  from  the  post,  and  Professor  Marsh. 

Q.  You  described  some  of  these  cattle  as  thin  in  flesh,  but  on  the  whole 
as  fair,  in  a  fair  condition  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  in  that  herd  which  could  be  designated, 
properly,  as  walking  skeletons  ! 


558 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  auy  remark  made  by  yourself,  Professor  Marsh,  General 
Bradley,  or  Major  Bart  at  that  time,  of  which  the  poor,  lean  condition 
of  these  cattle  was  the  subject  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  remarked  that  the  herd  of  cattle  was  much  in 
ferior  to  the  cattle  which  were  issued  to  the  Army;  an  inferior  quality 
of  cattle ;  that  many  of  them  would  not  weigh  over  six  hundred  pounds 
gross.  There  were  some  small  cattle  in  the  herd. 

Q.  Bid  that  remark  refer  to  cattle  inferior  in  size  or  in  flesh  ? 

A.  It  referred  to  both. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  steers  or  oxen  which,  in  your  judgment,  would 
weigh  as  little  as  six  hundred  pounds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  may  have  been  young  ones.  I  saw  cattle  as  young 
as  three  years  old — I  should  say  one-third  of  them  or  over.  Two-thirds 
would,  perhaps,  weigh  more  than  that ;  some  of  them  would  probably 
weigh  eight  hundred  pounds.  I  have  not  had  experience  in  weighing 
cattle,  so  as  to  be  able  to  judge  closely.  I  have  seen  a  great  many  cattle 
weighed,  but  never  had  charge  of  them  myself.  From  my  experience 
in  seeing  cattle  weighed  I  would  say  the  cattle  weighed  that  much.  I 
cannot  say  how  it  happened,  after  seeing  the  Indians  starving  on  the 
creek,  and  being  at  the  agency  within  a  few  days,  that  I  did  not  inform 
the  agent  or  some  of  his  officers.  I  supposed  they  kne  w  it.  I  did  not  feel  as 
if  it  was  any  of  my  business.  There  is  no  unkind  feeling  or  want  of  friend 
ship  between  myself  and  the  agent  or  the  officers  at  the  agency.  I  do 
not  think  there  is  auy  personal  feeling  toward  the  agent  by  the  officers 
of  the  Army.  I  think  there  is  a  general  feeling  among  the  officers  of  the 
Army  stationed  at  this  post  that  the  agents  are  not  thoroughly  honest 
in  their  management  of  Indian  affairs.  Of  my  own  personal  knowledge, 
I  know  of  no  act  which  I  could  designate  as  dishonest  among  the  officers 
of  the  Indian  agency.  I  don't  know  that  any  officer  at  the  post  knows  of 
any  dishonest  acts  being  committed.  I  should  judge  that  they  have, 
from  their  conversation.  GeneralJohu  E.  Smith  is  one  officer  whom  I  have 
heard  make  such  remarks ;  and  he  probably  knows  more  about  affairs 
there  than  any  one  else. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  any  other  instance  of  the  Indians  eating 
their  ponies? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  since  I  have  been  here,  and  I  have  been  here  three 
years. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  it  not  a  very  severe  winter  in  this  region  ? 

A.  It  was.  1  have  never  experienced  so  severe  a  winter  in  any  coun 
try.  It  was  the  severest  winter  ever  known  by  the  residents  of  this 
country. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T,, 
Wednesday,  August  25,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.W.HARRIS, 
Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  6.  HOWE,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  F.  COAD. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Coad,  where  do  you  reside  ? 
Answer.  At  Cheyenne,  Larainie  County,  Wyoming  Territory. 


559 

• 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  in  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  On  and  off  since  1868. 

Q.  What  business  have  you  been  engaged  in  during  that  time  ?  • 

A.  Transporting  Indian  supplies  and  stock-growing. 

Q.  Have  you  frequently  been  to  lied  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  been  frequently  to  the  old  one,  on  the  Platte. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Red  Cloud  agency  since  Dr.  Saville  has  been 
agent  there? 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  supplies  received  here  for  the  Red 
Cloud  agency  in  the  summer,  fall,  and  winter  of  1874? 

A.  Well,  not  much.     I  have  seen  some  of  the  supplies. 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  them? 

A.  I  saw  some  here  in  the  warehouse  and  some  on  wagons  on  the 
way  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  examine  the  quality  of  any  of  these  supplies  ? 

A.  1  do  not  know  as  I  did. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Coad,  you  understand  the  object  of  this  commission, 
which  is,  to  investigate  alleged  frauds  and  irregularities  in  the  general 
conduct  and  management  of  Indian  supplies  here. 

A.  Yes,  sir,  I  understand  it. 

Q.  If  you  have  any  knowledge  of  any  improper  conduct  in  that  re 
spect  on  the  part  of  the  agent,  any  of  his  employes,  or  any  contractor 
or  freighter,  we  would  be  much  obliged  if  you  would  give  us  that  in 
formation. 

A.  I  have  not  got  any. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  suffering  among  the  Indians  during 
last  winter  or  last  spring? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  any,  except  that  I  heard  that  they  were  suffering. 
They  have  always  been  suffering  since  I  first  knew  them.  It  has  been 
the  same  story  all  the  time,  and  I  paid  no  attention  to  it. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Spotted  Tail  agency  recently  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  affairs  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  I  don't. 

Q.  Mr.  Coad,  we  invited  you  here  to  talk  with  us  about  these  matters 
upon  a  suggestion  made  to  us  by  a  gentleman  who  supposed  that  you 
knew  something  that  the  commission  would  be  desirous  of  learning  in 
respect  to  these  matters. 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  of  anything  that  would  be  of  any  particular 
benefit  to  the  commission.  I  suppose  he  probably  referred  to  some  cat 
tle  that  I  delivered  to  Mr.  Bosler  this  spring. 

Q.  How  many? 

A.  A  little' less  than  four  hundred  head. 

Q.  Where  did  you  deliver  them  ? 

A.  I  delivered  them  on  the  north  side  of  the  North  Platte,  about  fifty 
or  sixty  miles  below  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency,  about  opposite  Court- 
House  Rock. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  were  those  ? 

A.  Good. 

Q.  Beef-cattle? 

A.  Beef-cattle. 

Q.  Steers? 

A.  Steers  and  cows. 

Q.  About  what  proportion  was  there  of  cows  ? 

A.  Well,  I  think  there  was  pretty  near  a  half,  but  I  don't  know  ex- 


.560 

• 

actly.  I  was  not  present  at  the  delivery  ;  they  were  delivered  by  my 
order. 

Q.  Have  you  sufficient  experience  in  such  matters  as  to  be  able  to  tell 
pretty  nearly  what  would  be  the  average  weight  of  those  cattle  ? 

A.  No  ;  I  could  not  tell  the  average  weight. 

Q.  Were  they  as  large  as  Texas  cattle  of  that  class  usually  are  ? 

A.  Some  of  them  were  and  some  of  them  were  not. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  them  were  large  ? 

A.  Well,  the  cows  were  very  large.  I  don't  know  that  all  of  the  steers 
Avould  run  as  large  as  the  usual  run  of  Texas  beef-steers. 

Q.  Were  they  four-year-olds  and  upward  ? 

A.  No;  they  were  three  and  four  year  olds  and  upward;  some  of 
them  were  upward  of  four. 

Q.  I  understand  you  delivered  those  this  spring? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  on  or  about  the  loth  of  May  of  this  year. 

Q.  What  was  their  condition  as  to  flesh  ? 

A.  Their  condition  as  to  flesh  was  good.  I  had  been  through  the 
herd  and  rounded  them  all  up  and  saw  about  all  of  them,  a  few  days 
previous  to  their  delivery.  I  was  cutting  out  beef  for  Chicago. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Were  those  cattle  that  had  been  wintered  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Cattle  that  came  from  Texas  last  year  and  were  wintered  here  ? 

A.  Some  of  them  came  from  Texas  last  year  and  some  had  been  on 
the  range  two  or  three  years.  They  were  wintered  cattle,  all  of  them. 

Q.  Are  you  a  stock-grower  ? 

A.  I  am. 

Q.  Were  these  cattle  which  you  yourself  had  had  in  your  possession 
since  the  last  of  May  ? 

A.  I  had  them  from  eight  months  to  two  years. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get  for  your  cows  f 

A.  $21.75  per  head. 

Q.  And  how  much  for  the  steers  ? 

A.  Steers  the  same. 

Q.  You  sold  the  whole  for  $21.75  per  head  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  give  no  estimate  as  to  their  probable  weight? 

A.  No,  I  don't  know  that  1  could. 

Q,  Do  you  think  that  they  would  weigh  900  pounds  gross  where  you 
delivered  them  without  lotting  them  ? 

A.  I  don't  know ;  they  would  run  pretty  close.  1  have  had  no  experi 
ence  in  weighing  there.  I  had  all  my  weighing  done  in  Chicago. 

Q.  HOWT  much  do  you  estimate  they  would  weigh  gross  in  Chicago  ? 

A.  I  don't  know.    I  had  not  shipped  any  of  that  kind  of  cattle. 

A.  Have  you  no  knowledge  concerning  the  character  and  quality  of 
goods  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  ? 

A.  I^have  no  knowledge  as  to  the  quality  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  communicated  at  any  time  to  Colonel  Stanton  any  in 
formation  as  to  the  affairs  of  either  of  these  agencies? 

A.  I  don't  know  asl  have. 

Q.  Have  you  given  him  any  statement  of  your  knowledge  concerning 
these  matters  ? 

A.  1  have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  say  now  that  you  have  no  knowledge  of  any  irregularity 
or  fraud  committed  upon  the  Indians  or  the  Government  by  agents,  con- 


561 

tractors,  freight-contractors,  or  other  persons;  or  that  which   seems  to 
you  to  be  evidence  of  fraud  or  irregularity  ? 

A.  No;  I  don't  know  as  I  have.  There  may  be  in  regard  to  the  question 
of  distance ;  but  I  have  no  way  of  knowing  whether  it  is  so  or  not. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  distance  from  here  to  the  agencies, 
by  the  road  usually  traveled  by  the  freighters u? 

A.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  distance;  I  have  no  means  of  saying 
what  the  distance  is. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  contracted  to  transport  freight  to  any  of  these 
agencies  1 

A.  I  have  to  Red  Cloud  agency  for  two  years. 

Q.  What  is  your  estimate  of  the  distance  to  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  My  estimate  of  the  distance,  and  the  distance  the  Department 
paid  us  for,  was  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles  to  the  old  Red  Cloud 
agency  ;  and  I  would  state  the  reason  why  that  distance  was  allowed. 
This  road  which  is  known  now  as  the  lower  road  was  not  open  then. 
We  carried  goods  by  the  way  of  Fort  Laramie.  It  would  be  one  hun 
dred  miles  to  Fort  Laramie,  and  thirty-two  miles  from  there  to  the  old 
Red  Cloud  agency.  The  distance  I  got  allowed  for  from  there  to  the 
old  Whetstone  agency  was  eighty  miles ;  which  is  about  ten  miles 
further  than  to  the  present  new  Red  Cloud  agency.  So  that  the  dis 
tance  from  Cheyenne  to  the  new  Red  Cloud  agency  by  tbat  estimate 
would  be  two  hundred  and  two  miles  by  the  way  of  Fort  Laramie.  By 
the  lower  road  it  would  be  about  one  hundred  and  sixty  or  one  hundred 
and  sixty-five  miles.  I  consider  the  latter  road  a  good,  practicable 
road. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  sale  of  any  Indian  supplies  by  any 
agent,  store- keeper,  or  employe  ! 

A.  I  do  not. 

Soon  after  the  foregoing  examination  had  been  concluded,  Mr.  Goad 
voluntarily  re-appeared  before  the  commission  and  said : 

When  you  asked  me  about  the  supplies  of  last  year  I  forgot  to  state, 
in  regard  to  the  beef,  about  seeing  any  of  it.  I  have  seen  two  herds  of 
Mr.  Bosler's  beef-cattle,  one  was  about  the  8th  of  August,  and  the  other 
was  on  or  about  the  15th  of  August,  1874.  I  noticed  one  of  the  herds 
in  particular,  the  herd  of  August  8,  delivered  by  Mabry  &  Millett. 
They  were  a  No.  1  lot  of  beef-cattle.  My  reason  for  noticing  that  herd 
so  closely  was  that  I  had  to  ride  through  the  herd  several  times,  looking 
for  some" of  my  cattle  that  were  in  their  herd,  and  I  noticed  the  cattle 
very  closely.  I  also  saw  the  other  herd,  that  of  the  15th  of  August,  and 
they  were  a  good  lot  of  beef-cattle. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Who  did  Bosler  get  the  last  herd  from.  ? 

A.  Ellison  &  Dewes.  That  is  all  on  the  beef-cattle  question,  I  be 
lieve.  Now,  as  to  the  supplies.  You  asked  me  this  morning  if  I  had 
ever  seen  any  supplies  that  were  delivered  to  the  Indians.  1  supposed 
that  meant  the  supplies  of  1874.  The  supplies  of  1874  I  have  not  ex 
amined.  The  supplies  previous  to  that  I  have  seen  and  examined 
closely  ;  but  I  supposed  you  were  asking  me  about  those  of  1874.  As 
to  the  supplies  of  1873  and  1872,  1  examined  the  articles  almost  every 
day,  in  loading  and  shipping  them.  Some  of  them  were  good,  and  some 
were  very  poor.  The  bacon  was  good  ;  as  good  as  we  use  for  our  mess. 
The  coffee  was  of  a  low  grade  of  Rio  coffee. 
36  I  F 


562 

Q.  How  did  it  compare  with  the  ordinary  article  sold  in  retail  stores  ? 

A.  Not  as  good  ;  not  near  as  good.  The  flour  was  very  poor ;  that  is, 
the  greater  portion  of  it.  There  was  some  flour  that  was  delivered  by 
John  H.  Martin  that  was  very  good  cominou  flour,  and  the  brand  of 
that  flour  was  u  Little  Blue  Mills."  That  was  in  the  years  1871, 1872,  and 
1873.  I  closed  my  contract  on  the  30th  of  June,  1873  ;  that  is,  the  con 
tract  for  transportation  for  two  years. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  other  brands  of  flour  ? 

A.  I  do  not  remember  them. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  flour  ? 

A.  Poor. 

Q.  When  you  say  "  poor'7  do  you  mean  that  it  was  sour,  musty,  un 
wholesome,  or  that  it  was  a  low  grade  of  wheat? 

A.  A  low  grade  of  wheat ;  and  some  of  the  flour  was  musty.  There 
was  one  lot  of  flour  that  was  forwarded  by  me  from  here,  I  think  in  the 
spring  of  1873,  to  Agent  Kisley,  at  the  Whetstone  agency,  which  I  re 
ceipted  for  as  bad  and  musty  flour.  My  reason  for  receipting  for  it  in 
this  way  was  that  Agent  Kisley  had  previously  told  me  that  he  would 
not  receive  supplies  except  in  good  condition,  and  had  told  me  to  receipt 
for  them  as  they  were. 

Q.  Did  not  liisley  tell  you  that  he  had  received  a  communication  from 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  to  the  effect  that  the  Department 
did  not  intend  to  furnish  No.  1  flour  to  the  Indians  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  words  to  that  effect. 

Q.  Now,  going  back  to  the  herd  of  Auugst  8:  You  speak  of  the  herd 
he  had  of  Mabry  &  Millett  as  No.  .1  beef;  what  were  they,  oxen  or 
steers  mainly  ? 

A.  They  were  large  beef-steers.  Some  few  cows  I  think  were  in  the 
bunch,  but  not  many  ;  and  some  few  three-year  olds. 

Q.  Y'OLI  say  that  the  other  herd  of  August  15  was  fair;  how  did  it 
compare  with  that  of  August  8  ? 

A.  It  was  pretty  near  as  good.  I  consider  them  not  quite  as  good  a 
herd.  They  w7ere  a  good  lot  of  cattle,  though. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  sugar  that  was  delivered  in  1872  and  1873  ? 

A.  I  did ;  examined  and  tested  it  almost  daily. 

Q.  What  was  its  character! 

A.  Good. 

Q.  What  color  was  it  ? 

A.  Well,  I  would  consider  it  tolerably  light.  It  was  about  the  best 
quality  of  brown  sugar.  It  was  better  than,  or  as  good,  as  we  furnished 
to  our  men  that  we  had  employed  in  transporting  the  supplies.  In  this 
country  we  furnish  them  a  very  good  article.  It  was  such  a  grade  of 
sugar  as  any  family  might  use  for  table  use.  I  have  used  it  on  the  table 
with  Dr.  Daniels. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  tobacco  that  year  ? 

A.  I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  its  quality  was? 

A.  It  was  poor  5  a  low  grade. 

Q.  Did  you  see  tobacco  that  was  wet,  moist,  and  sticky  ? 

A.  Nearly  all  the  tobacco  was  of  a  low  grade,  damp  and  sticky. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  it  was  at  all  fit  for  smoking  purposes  f 

A.  I  would  not  consider  it  fit  for  smoking.  A  man  would  have  to 
have  a  good  deal  of  1  ibor  to  cut  it  up  and  dry  it. 

Q.  Did  you  at  any  time  see  corn  furnished  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  There  was  no  corn  furnished  up  to  that  time. 

Q.  Was  any  pork  furnished  to  the  Indians  during  that  period  ? 

A.  No  pork  on  these  two  contracts  that  I  am  aware  of. 


563 

Q,  Were  you  a  sub-contractor  under  McCann  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  was  the  original  contractor.  1  bad  one  contract  to  the 
Bed  Cloud  agency,  and  D.  J.  McCann  had  a  contract  to  the  Whetstone 
agency.  I  would  state,  in  reference  to  these  contracts,  that  D.  J.  Mc- 
Caun  and  myself  were  in  partnership,  transporting  the  supplies  on  these 
two  contracts.  He  got  one  contract  and  I  got  the  other  the  first  year, 
and  the  second  year  I  got  the  original  contract  and  he  did  not  get  ajiy, 
but  we  were  still  in  partnership  up  to  the  30th  of  June,  1873. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  were  you  getting  for  transportation  per  mile  ? 

A.  We  were  getting,  I  think,  $1.75  per  hundred  pounds  per  hundred 
miles  for  the  Whetstone  contract  of  1871,  the  distance  being  reck 
oned  at  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles,  by  way  of  Fort  Laramie,  to 
the  old  Bed  Cloud  agency,  where  tbe  goods  were  delivered,  on  account 
of  trouble  with  the  Indians.  The  Bed  Cloud  contract  to  the  old  Bed 
Cloud  agency  was  $1.40  for  the  summer-months  and  $1.75  for  the  winter- 
months  per  hundred  pounds  per  hundred  miles.  The  contract  of  1872 
to  the  old  Bed  Cloud  agency  was,  I  think,  $1.40  per  hundred  pounds  per 
hundred  miles  the  year  round. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  to  what  extent  is  it  a  practice  among  the 
freighters  to  feed  their  hands  off  the  agency-goods  that  they  are  trans 
porting? 

A.  I  do  not  know  that  it  is  a  practice  at  all.  I  have  had  some  men 
who  would  make  a  sack  of  coffee,  or  a  sack  of  flour,  or  a  barrel  of  sugar, 
or  a  box  of  tobacco,  where  a  mistake  was  made  at  one  end  or  the  other, 
and  appropriate  the  same  to  their  own  use,  but  that  does  not  occur  very 
often.  I  have  stated  all,  I  believe,  except  about  the  soap  and  annuity 
goods.  The  soap  was  of  a  good  quality ;  it  was  good  enough  for  Indians. 
It  was  good  common  soap.  The  annuity  goods  I  do  not  know  that  I 
could  say  much  about,  from  the  fact  that  they  came  here  in  very  good 
packages,  and  I  did  not  see  a  great  many.  Some  few  packages  were 
bursted  in  unloading.  Loading  up  the  wagons  I  saw  some  of  the  an 
nuity  goods. 

Q.  Have  you  any  sample  or  standard  to  judge  by  whether  they  were 
such  as  the  Government  purchased? 

A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  general  quality  of  those  you  saw  ? 

A.  The  general  quality  was  good,  fair ;  some  were  better  than  others. 
Take,  for  instance,  the  blankets ;  some  were  better  than  others;  and  also 
the  hats,  I  think.  Most  of  the  hats  I  saw  were  soft,  black  hats. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether  or  not  you  have  known  any  goods  or  sup 
plies  bought  by  freighters  or  sold  by  the  freighters  at  this  end  of  the 
line? 

A.  It  is  almost  impossible  to  do  anything  of  the  kind. 

Q.  Why  impossible  ? 

A.  'Well,  in  the  first  place,  the  freighter  had  to  receipt  to  me  for  the 
goods  that  he  received  of  me ;  and,  in  the  second  place,  he  had  to  de 
liver  them  at  the  agency,  and  get  the  agent's  receipt  for  them,  in  order 
to  get  his  pay  for  transportation.  If  he  were  to  attempt  to  offer  any  of 
them  here  for  sale,  I  would  be  very  apt  to  find  it  out. 

Q.  Your  answer  does  not  quite  meet  the  question  I  put.  I  do  not  ask 
you  whether  or  not  goods  were  bought  of  the  agent,  but  whether  or  not 


564 

freighters  or  others  bought  goods  of  the  Indians,  and  then  brought  them 
back  and  sold  them. 

A.  Oh,  I  understand  you  now.  I  do  not  know  of  any.  I  would  state 
that  I  knew  of  one  instance  where  a  man  took  a  load  of  goods  up  to  the 
agency,  (I  do  not  know  but  he  hauled  the  goods  for  me,)  and  in  return 
ing  Dr.  Daniels  discovered  that  he  had  a  lot  of  Indian  flour  in  his 
wagon,  forty-eight  miles  from  this  place.^Dr.  Daniels  seized  the  flour 
there,  and  had  it  sent  back  to  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  thatflour  had  been  taken  from  the  agency 
or  from  the  Indians? 

A.  I  understood  that  the  man  had  traded  with  the  Indians  for  the 
flour. 

Q.  Have  you  known  such  an  instance  to  occur  during  the  administra 
tion  of  Dr.  Saville  there ;  in  flour  or  any  other  goods  ? 

A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  You  would  be  likely  to  know  it  if  it  was  a  common  practice  here? 

A.  I  would  be  likely  to  know.  I  have  never  heard  of  any  such 
thing. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Todd  Randall  ? 

A.  I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  any  time  he  was  in  the  habit  of  purchas 
ing  Indian  flour  and  sending  it  either  here  or  to  Sidney,  or  whether  at 
any  time  he  tried  to  get  it  received  again  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  I  know  one  thing,  however,  that  if  the  flour  was 
of  the  same  quality  as  it  was  when  I  was  transporting  goods,  a  man 
could  not  find  a  market  for  it  here;  the  quality  was  too  poor,  with  the 
exception  of  one  brand,  (Little  Blue  Mills  brand,)  which  was  a  good 
quality  of  flour. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  else  that  you  could  communicate  to  the 
commission  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 


TESTIMONY  OF  GEORGE  H.  JEWBTT. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Where  do  you  reside  ? 

Answer.  At  Spotted  Tail  agency. 

Q.  You  are  a  trader  there,  1  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  Two  years  and  three  months. 

Q.  Were  you  there  last  winter  and  spring  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know   anything  of  the  suffering  of  the  Indians  there — 
the  starving  of  the  Indians  '1 

A.  The  first  I  knew  of  it  was  what  I  saw  in  the  papers — the  Cheyenne 
Leadc  r  and  Chicago  Inter-Ocean — purporting  to  be  a  telegram  from  Col 
ouel  Stan  ton. 

Q.  You  had  not  heard  anything  of  any  starvation  among  the  Indians 
before  that  time? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  After  that,  did  you  learn  anything  about  the  starvation  ? 

A.  I  heard  one  man  talking  about  an  Indian,  or  an  Indian  family, 
killing   a  horse  to  eat.      What  I  heard  was  brought  up  by  discuss- 


565 

ing  what  we  had  seen  in  the  paper.  It  was  in  my  store  or  office,  i  think. 
I  endeavored  to  trace  it  to  a  reliable  source,  but  it  was  always  second- 
handed  ;  somebody  had  heard  somebody  else  say  so. 

Q.  Have  you  on  any  occasion  witnessed  the  delivery  or  the  issue  of 
beef  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  the  agency  being  out  of  supplies  last  winter  or 
spring  ? 

A.  I  believe  they  were  short  of  sugar  and  coffee.  I  think  it  was  in 
March.  The  trains  went  to  the  Missouri  liiver  for  supplies,  part  in 
the  last  of  December  and  part  about  the  first  of  January,  and  did  not 
get  back  until  April,  on  account  of  the  severe  storms,  and  cold  weather, 
and  deep  snows. 

Q.  Mr.  Jewett,  since  you  have  been  at  the  agency,  or  at  any  other 
time,  have  you  had  any  knowledge  of  any  frauds  or  improper  conduct 
on  the  part  of  the  agent  or  any  of  his  employes,  or  any  contractor,  in 
reference  to  Indian  matters  at  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  None  whatever,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Jew:ett,  are  you  able  to  state  whether  during  last  winter  the 
Indians  there  were  destitute  of  such  supplies  as  flour  or  anything  of  that 
kind  ! 

A.  No,  sir.  At  the  very  time  that  they  were  complaining  of  starving, 
{I  could  make  an  affidavit  if  necessary,)  I  was  in  Indian  lodges,  and  sawr 
from  four  to  twenty  sacks  of  flour  in  a  lodge,  and  they  were  then  selling 
it  to  wood-choppers  or  anybody  who  wanted  to  buy  it,  paying  $1  or 
$1.50  a  sack. 

Q.  How  far  is  the  encampment  of  the  Brules  on  Bordeaux  Creek  from 
the  agency ! 

A.  It  is  generally  estimated  at  about  twelve  miles.  It  would  fall  a 
little  short  of  that;  about  ten  miles;  from  ten  to  twelve  miles. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  starvation  of  these  Indians  in  the  encamp 
ment  on  Bordeaux  Creek  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  it  was  a  habit  among  the  Indians  to  sell 
their  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  to  a  certain  extent.  An  Indian  won't  eat  flour  when  he 
can  get  meat.  I  have  seen  them  frequently  feed  it  to  their  horses. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  they  would  feed  good  flour  to  their 
horses — what  you  w7ould  call  ordinarily  good  flour? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  them  feed  flour  to  their  horses,  and  eat 
corn  themselves. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  In  the  winter  would  the  Indians  camp  nearer  to  the  agency  than  in 
the  summer  1  % 

A.  They  were  no  nearer  last  winter.  They  were  encamped  about  as 
near  as  they  are  now,  or  as  they  were  when  you  were  there. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

A.  Were  they  in  the  habit  of  corning  in  from  that  encampment  to  the 
agency  during  the  winter  from  Bordeaux  Creek  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  came  in  on  ration-days. 

Q.  \\  hen  they  were  thus  collected  at  the  agency,  did  you  hear  any 
complaints  of  starving  among  the  Indians  1? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  any  particular  complaints.    I  have  heard  general  com- 


566 

plaints — that  I  have  always  heard  ever  since  I  have  been  at  the  agency 
— that  they  don't  get  enough  to  eat ;  but  no  particular  complaints  of 
any  particular  time. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  They  have  always  complained  that  they  did  not  get  enough  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  that  person  who  informed  you  about  the  Indians  killing  a 
pony  and  eating  it  undertake  to  state  that  upon  his  own  information  I 

A.  No,  sir;  he  said  somebody  else  told  him. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  pains  yourself  to  ascertain  whether  there  was 
any  truth  in  that  report  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  means  did  you  take? 

A.  I  asked  several  parties  who  lived  in  the  vicinity  of  the  agency  if 
they  had  seen  anything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  What  was  their  reply  ? 

A.  That  they  had  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  not  the  information  which  you  first  received  concerning  the 
Indian  who  killed  his  pony  convey  the  idea  that  the  Indian  lived  on 
Bordeaux  Creek  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  1  think  he  lived  nearer  the  agency  on  what  is  called  the 
Old  Saw-Mill  Creek,  about  two  or  three  miles  from  the  agency . 

Q.  Did  the  informant  tell  you  what  Indian  it  was? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  had  heard  that  it  was  an  Indian  living  on  that  creek, 

Q.  Did  you  make  inquiries  of  the  Indians  living  on  that  creek? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Or  of  persons  who  would  be  likely  to  know? 

A.  I  made  inquiries  of  white  men  who  have  squaw  families  living  in 
the  neighborhood. 

Q.  Could  you  get  any  confirmation  of  the  story  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  everybody  had  heard  everybody  else  say  so. 


TESTIMONY  OF  CAPTAIN  E.  I.  ESKRIDGE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  and  position  ? 

Answer.  1  am  captain  in  the  Twenty-third  Infantry,  and  inspector  of 
Indian  supplies  at  Cheyenne. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  were  appointed  inspector  here? 

A.  About  the  1st  of  July,  1875. 

Q.  What  supplies  have  you  inspected  since  you  have  been  ap 
pointed  ? 

A.  I  have  inspected  some  corn  and  bacon  and  flour. 

Q.  That  which  you  have  inspected  you  have  passed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  passed  all  of  the  stores  that  I  have  inspected. 

Q.  Where  do  you  obtain  the  samples  that  you  inspect  by  ? 

A.  Of  flour,  I  obtain  the  samples  from  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  at  Washington.  Of  corn  and  bacon  there  are  no  samples  fur 
nished  ;  I  am  required  only  to  see  that  they  are  all  sound,  sweet,  and 
fresh,  and  a  good  merchantable  article. 


567 

Q.  Captain,  you  have  been  stationed  here  how  long  ? 

A.  Since  the  16th  of  September,  1874. 

Q.  Did  you  have  occasion  to  examine  any  of  the  supplies  that  were 
sent  last  season  up  to  these  Indian  agencies? 

A.  I  did  not,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Bed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  captain,  you  have  read  these  charges  made  by  Professor 
Marsh  in  reference  to  the  management  of  Indian  affairs  out  here, 
I  believe  ? 

A.  I  have,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  that  you  can  give  us  in  reference  to 
any  matters  stated  by  Professor  Marsh  in  his  pamphlet  ? 

A.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  any  of  the  facts  stated  by  Pro 
fessor  Marsh. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  any  other  irregularities  or  frauds  or 
misconduct  on  the  part  of  any  person  connected  with  the  Indian  Depart 
ment,  whether  as  agent,  employe,  or  contractor,  which  are  not  men 
tioned  by  Professor  Marsh  or  referred  to  in  his  charges  ? 

A.  I  have  not,  except  a  violation  of  one  of  the  terms  of  the  contract 
for  corn. 

Q.  Please  state  all  that  you  know  of  that. 

A.  On  the  contract  of  Mr.  J.  T.  Baldwin,  100,000  pounds  of  corn  were 
shipped  to  lied  Cloud  agency  by  way  of  Sidney  without  my  inspection, 
and  presumably  without  inspection  altogether,  as  I  know  of  no  other 
person  authorized  to  inspect  such  stores.  The  shipment  was  made  on 
the  4th  day  of  July,  1875.  On  the  9th  day  of  July  I  received  a  telegram 
from  Commissioner  Smith,  stating  that  that  amount  of  corn  had  been 
shipped  through  Sidney  by  mistake,  and  asking  me  to  inspect  it  at 
Sidney.  I  telegraphed  back  to  the  Commissioner,  asking  him  from  whom 
I  would  receive  notice  when  the  corn  was  ready  for  inspection  ;  to  which 
I  received  no  reply.  At  that  time  I  was  not  aware  that  the  corn  had  been 
shipped,  but  afterward  I  found  that  it  had  been  shipped  on  the  4th  of 
July,  as  I  stated  before.  No  one  ever  informed  me  that  the  corn  was  at 
Sidney  and  awaiting  my  inspection. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  Mr.  Baldwin  or  the  shipper  apprised  of  the  fact  that  you 
were  then  appointed  an  inspector  ? 

A.  I  think  not,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  before  that  had  you  assumed  that  position  here  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  the  order  detailing  me  is  dated  on  the  6th 
day  of  July. 

Q.  This  corn  had  been  shipped  on  the  4th? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  left  Sidney  on  the  4th.  I  may  be  incorrect  in  the  date 
of  the  order  detailing  me,  but  I  am  positive  as  to  the  date  of  the  tele 
gram  and  the  date  of  the  shipment  of  the  stores  from  Sidney  to  Red 
Cloud. 

Q.  Up  to  the  period  of  your  appointment  as  inspector  was  there  any 
other  person  here  who  could  have  inspected  that  corn,  who  was  legally 
authorized  to  do  so  ! 

A.  I  know  of  no  one  who  was  required  to  inspect  corn  here  about 
that  time. 

Q.  How  then  do  you  reach  the  conclusion  that  there  was  any  fraud, 


568 

irregularity,  or  even  any  violation  of  contract  in  tlie  transaction  to 
which  you  refer  ? 

A.  It  was  irregular  because  the  contract  requires  that  the  stores 
shall  be  inspected  at  such  point  as  the  Indian  Office  may  direct.  The 
Indian  Office  directed  that  it  should  be  inspected  at  Sidney,  but  it  ap 
pears  that  it  left  Sidney  without  inspection.  That  is  the  irregularity  I 
refer  to.  I  know  nothing  more  of  it. 

Q.  Did  the  contract  stipulate  for  the  delivery  of  the  corn  at  Red 
Cloud  agency  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  immediately  on  being- 
notified  of  its  arrival  at  Red  Cloud,  ordered  it  to  be  inspected  there, 
would  you  see  any  irregularity  in  that  'I 

A.  No,  sir;  there  is  no  irregularity  on  the  part  of  the  Commissioner. 
It  is  simply  an  irregularity  on  the  part  of  the  contractor. 

Q.  Had  he,  so  far  as  you  know,  any  notice  that  his  corn  would  be  in 
spected  anywhere  before  it  reached  its  point  of  delivery .? 

A.  I  do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  No  notice  was  ever  given  to  the  contractor,  as  far  as  you  know, 
that  the  Commissioner  intended  it  to  be  inspected  at  Sidney  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  can  it  be  said  that  it  was  irregular  ? 

A.  I  draw  my  conclusions  from  papers  placed  before  me.  I  have  no 
idea  that  the  contractor  knew  at  what  point  the  Commissioner  intended 
it  to  be  inspected. 


TESTIMONY  OF  LIEUT.  EMMETT  CRAWFORD. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  and  position  in  the  Army  ? 

Answer.  First  lieutenant  Third  United  States  Cavalry,  now  stationed 
at  Sidney  Barracks ;  I  was  stationed  at  Camp  Robinson  up  to  the  17th 
November,  1874.  I  know  something  about  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  agency. 
I  was  present  at  the  issue  of  rations  to  Indians  frequently;  the  rations 
were  not  weighed  out.  Each  Indian  presented  a  ticket  and  was  supposed 
to  represent  a.  certain  number  of  persons;  I  recollect  one  represented 
forty  persons;  they  gave  a  certain  quantity  of  sugar  and  coffee  into  a 
blanket  or  sack;  it  was  not  weighed ;  that  was  the  mode  of  issue  to  the 
Indians;  the  sugar  was  the  worst  quality,  dark  and  damp;  I  did  not 
taste  it;  the  coffee  was  green;  I  don't  know  much  about  the  coffee. 
The  flour  was  very  dark;  have  frequently  seen  the  Indians  feed  it  to 
their  ponies;  I  cannot  say  much  about  the  tobacco,  I  do  not  use  it. 
On  October  26,  Dr.  Saville  attempted  to  erect  a  flag-staff  at  the 
agency,  and  told  me  it  was  for  the  purpose  of  letting  the  Indians  know 
when  it  was  Sunday,  and  for  a  signal  for  the  camp  in  case  of  any 
trouble.  The  Indians  objected  because  it  looked  too  much  like  a  mili 
tary  camp.  He  had  the  pole  brought  in,  and  a  party  of  the  Indians 
came  into  the  stockade  and  cut  it  up.  He  told  them  that  he  would  send 
over  for  some  soldiers  and  arrest  them.  He  sent  word  over  to  camp, 
and  I  was  sent  over  with  twenty-three  men  to  report  to  him.  I  went 
over  and  reported  to-him.  I  made  no  arrests;  he  did  not  direct  me  to  doso; 
several  hundred  congregated  there  and  were  threatening  and  surrounded 
my  party;  Saville  was  very  much  excited;  I  think  the  communication  sent 
to  the  commanding  officer  for  troops  was  not  a  proper  paper.  He  told 


569 

me  afterwards  that  lie  wrote  it  in  a  burry.  He  requested  the  commanding 
officer  to  send  a  company  of  troops  over  there  ;  that  he  expected  trouble 
with  the  Indians.  That  was  the  substance  of  his  communication.  He 
told  me  afterwards,  when  I  went  to  the  agency,  that  he  wrote  it  in  a 
hurry.  I  think,  too,  that  he  showed  his. weakness  in  not  having  the  flag 
staff  raised  afterwards.  He  told  those  Indians  that  he  was  going  to 
raise  it,  and  I  think  that  he  ought  to  have  had  it  raised. 

Q.  He  never  did  raise  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  never  did  raise  it,  and  he  never  had  the  Indians  ar 
rested.  He  told  them  that  he  was  going  to  have  them  arrested.  I  think 
that  he  ought  to  have  arrested  them  and  raised  the  flag  staff. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  In  what  respect  do  you  regard  his  letter  as  an  improper  letter  ? 

A.  I  think  the  commanding  officer  would  have  sent  more  troops  over 
if  the  Doctor  had  represented  the  actual  state  of  affairs  at  the  agency. 
The  commanding  officer  only  gave  me  eighteen  men.  I  told  him  that  I 
would  like  to  have  more,  and  he  raised  the  number  to  twenty-six.  We 
had  five  companies  there  at  the  time. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  observe  anything  else  that  went  to  show  you  that  he  had 
been  guilty  of  any  want  of  judgment  in  the  management  of  that  matter? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  he  ought  to  have  known  beforehand  that  the 
Indians  objected  to  that  flag-staff,  and  not  attempted  to  raise  it.  He 
ought  to  have  been  able  to  find  out  something  from  those  half-breeds 
around  there. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  he  could,  with  safety  to  the  agency  and  to  the 
post,  under  these  circumstances,  have  subsequently  raised  the  flag? 

A.  I  think  so,  sir.  I  think  it  is  the  only  way  to  deal  with  the  Indians; 
that  he  ought  not  to  have  given  in  to  those  Indians  the  way  he  did ; 
that  he  ought  to  have  had  the  flag-staff  raised. 

Q.  Is  it  your  impression  that  the  attempt  to  raise  the  flag-staff  for  the 
purpose  he  intended  was  an  improper  thing  to  do? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  it  was  not  improper,  and  it'would  have  been  a  great  advan 
tage  to  have  had  a  flag  to  signal ;  it  would  have  been  quite  an  advantage 
to  the  camp.  When  I  wras  stationed  there  I  used  to  have  a  picket  over 
looking  the  agency,  and  the  flag-staff  would  have  avoided  the  necessity 
of  having  a  sentinel  on  the  hill. 

Q.  When  you  reached  there  with  the  twenty-six  men,  before  you  en 
tered  the  stockade  were  you  entirely  surrounded  ;  were  there  three  or 
four  hundred  Indians,  and  were  they  mounted  ? 

A.  They  were  all  mounted  and  stripped,  and  when  they  saw  me  com 
ing  over  the  hill  they  commenced  to  put  cartridges  in  their  guns  and 
cock  them. 

Q.  When  you  arrived  there  were  the  gates  of  the  stockade  open  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  were  closed. 

Q.  Did  you  get  them  open  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  caused  them  to  be  opened  ? 

A.  There  were  some  men  inside;  the  civilians  were  inside,  and  they 
opened  the  gates  and  hallooed  for  me  to  come  in.  When  I  got  up  I  dis 
mounted,  and  then  they  opened  the  gates  inside  and  hallooed  to  me,  and 
I  went  in.  There  were  a  number  of  friendly  Indians  doing  all  they  could 
to  prevent  the  other  Indians  from  firing. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  after  you  went  into  the  stockade  ? 


570 

A.  I  remained  there  till  night;  until  Dr.  Saville  was  through  with 
them. 

Q.  Did  you  get  information  from  the  Doctor  that  he  had  organized  a 
force,  and  that  he  would  undertake  the  defense  of  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  force  did  that  consist  of? 

A.  Of  friendly  Indians.    I  believe  there  were  quite  a  number  inside. 

Q.  Did  the  mass  of  Indians  remain  there  during  the  day  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  as  night  came  on  they  left.  They  remained  there  all  of 
the  afternoon.  I  got  over  there  about  half  past  2  or  3  o'clock. 

Q.  What  conduct  on  the  part  of  the  Doctor  on  that  occasion,  after 
you  arrived  there,  did  you  see  indicating  that  he  was  weak,  or  incompe 
tent,  or  excited  ? 

A.  Well,  I  went  inside  and  had  this  conversation  with  him  :  He  told 
me  about  the  trouble,  and  he  was  very  much  excited  at  the  time.  He 
is  naturally,  however,  an  excitable,  nervous  man. 

Q.  Was  there  any  act  of  his  which  you  can  now  call  to  mind,  which 
indicated  that  he  was  incompetent  to  meet  the  emergency  ? 

A.  Well,  I  do  not  know  about  that.  I  think  if  there  had  been  no 
troops  there,  we  would  all  have  been  massacred.  I  think  they  would 
have  killed  everybody  at  that  agency. 

Q.  It  is  quite  likely  the  Doctor  shared  that  fear  with  you. 

A.  I  think  he  would  not  have  attempted  to  raise  that  flag-staff  if  our 
camp  had  not  been  there. 

Q.  What  did  he  do  that  day  which  was  out  of  the  way  J? 

A.  I  do  not  know  as  I  saw  him  do  anything  out  of  the  way.  I  had 
a  talk  with  him  ;  he  was  excited  and  nervous. 

Q.  Were  the  friendly  Indians  about  him? 

A.  There  were  a  few  inside. 

Q.  Offering  to  protect  him  in  any  way  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  those  men  were  ? 

A.  Eed  Cloud  and  lied  Dog  were  inside,  because,  1  think,  they  were 
afraid  to  go  outside. 

Q.  Was  Sitting  Bull  there? 

A.  He  was  outside  trying  to  pacify  the  Indians,  and  came  up  right 
behind  me. 

Q.  You  had  a  feeling  at  that  time,  and  entertain  it  now,  that  the 
Doctor  was  imprudent  in  undertaking  to  put  up  the  flag-staff,  knowing 
that  there  was  hostility  to  it  among  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  a  feeling  that  he  unnecessarily  imperiled  you  and 
your  command? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  did. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  independent  means  of  knowing  the  state  of  feeling 
among  the  Indians  with  respect  to  raising  the  flag-staff? 

A.  No,  sir ;  only  what  I  have  heard. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  what  pains  Dr.  Saville  had  taken 
to  ascertain  that  feeling? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  habit  of  keeping  a  picket  from  Camp  Robinson 
at  the  agency.  Is  that  practice  still  maintained  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  whether  it  is  or  not. 

Q.  Was  it  during  your  last  stay  there? 

A.  Yes.  sir. 


571 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Dr.  Saville  was  at  all  apprised  of  the 
opposition  of  the  Indians  to  raising  the  flag-staff  before  he  brought  the 
flag-staff  into  the  stockade  ? 

A.  Well,  I  cannot  say,  sir,  about  that.  I  heard  a  couple  of  days  be 
fore  they  brought  that  flag-staff  in  there  that  he  was  going  to  raise  a 
flag-staff  there.  He  had  sent  some  men  out  to  the  hills  to  cut  it,  and  I 
was  told  then  that  the  Indians  objected  to  it. 

Q.  Did  you  observe  anything  in  his  conduct  in  the  stockade  that  in 
dicated  want  of  presence  of  mind,  courage,  or  capacity  to  meet  an  emer 
gency  of  that  kind  ? 

A.  Nothing  more  than  his  excitement ;  that  was  all.  I  think  he  was 
very  glad  when  he  saw  the  troops  arrive  there.  He  seemed  relieved 
after  that.  He  seemed  a  little  easier  than  he  did  before. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  you  there  at  the  issue  of  annuity-goods  last  November  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  not  present  at  the  issue,  but  I  was  at  the  agency 
at  the  time. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  of  the  beef-cattle  that  were  delivered  there 
on  the  14th  of  last  November  ? 

A.  I  think  they  were  short  of  beef  last  November  at  the  agency.  I 
left  there  on  the  17th,  ancVl  don't  think  they  had  any  beef  there.  The 
beef  had  not  been  issued.  There  were  a  great  many  complaints  from 
the  Indians  on  account  of  receiving  no  beef. 

Q.  So  you  did  not  see  any  beef  issued  there  in  November  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  1  have  seen  their  beef,  though.  I  have  been  through  the 
agency-herd  several  times. 

Q.  What  kind  of  cattle  did  they  have  ? 

A.  Well,  I  think  the  cattle  were  very  fair  ;  but  the  cattle  always  look 
well  in  the  summer  in  this  country.  There  was  very  good  grazing  the 
summer  I  was  there. 

Q.  The  cattle  get  fat  here  in  the  summer,  I  believe,  and  remain  in  good 
condition  until  late  in  the  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  Indian  supplies  being  brought  from  Spotted 
Tail  or  Eed  Cloud  agencies  down  to  Sidney  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not.  There  was  some  corn  shipped  from  Sidney  to 
Red  Cloud  some  time  ago,  which  was  not  inspected  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  any  Indian  supplies  being  sold  there  from  the 
agency,  and  taken  down  to  Sidney  or  anywhere  else? 

A.  No,  sir ;  only  what  I  have  heard.  I  have  been  told  of  such  things, 
but  I  don't  know  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  by  whom  you  were  told  ? 

A.  I  was  told  it  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  by  a  person  in  Mr.  Walters' 
store.  I  do  not  recollect  who  the  person  was.  Mr.  Walters  was  a 
trader  there.  I  don't  know  whether  he  is  there  now  or  not. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  on  that  subject  ? 

A.  He  told  me  that  Mr.  Randall  had  been  in  the  habit  of  buying  flour 
from  the  Indians,  and  then  turning  it  in  to  the  agent  at  Red  Cloud 
and  receiving  pay  for  it. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  of  this  as  a  matter  within  his  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  Well,  I  think  so.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Todd  Randall  was  at  that  time  a  trader? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not.  He  was  considered  up  there,  I  believe,  chief 
gardener  for  the  Sioux  Nation  ;  I  believe  that  is  what  they  called  him. 


572 

I  know  of  another  case  up  there  where  beef  was  withheld  from  the  In 
dians  for  three  days  in  order  to  let  a  certain  trader  get  in  his  supplies, 
that  lie  might  buy  the  hides.  I  expected  at  that  time  that  there  would 
be  trouble  there. 

Q.  Who  did  you  learn  that  from  ? 

A.  I  learned  it  from  one  of  the  traders  at  the  agency,  Mr.  Deer.  The 
Indians  were  in  his  store,  very  much  excited,  talking  about  the  beef,  and 
I  asked  him  what  the  excitement  meant,  and  he  told  me  the  occasion  of 
it.  He  told  me  that  there  was  going  to  be  trouble,  and  I  saw  the  In 
dians  were  riding  about  there,  and  they  were  very  active,  and  there 
would  be  trouble  if  it  was  kept  up  ;  and  that  was  kept  up  for  three  days, 
until  his  goods  arrived. 

Q.  Were  the  cattle  in  the  corral  all  this  time  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know.  They  were  near  there  somewhere ;  they  were  ready 
to  be  issued. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  that? 

A.  1  think  it  was  last  August  a  year  ago  that  that  happened. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  Saville  say  anything  about  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  one  else  except  Mr.  Deer  ? 

A.  I  have  heard  quite  a  number  of  officers  speak  of  it.  It  was  reported 
around  there  that  Dr.  Saville  was  interested  with  Mr.  Walters.  He  was 
the  one  that  received  the  supplies 5  he  was  the  one  that  Saville  waited 
for  to  receive  the  goods. 

Q.  Then  Mr.  Deer  told  you  that  Dr.  Saville  was  waiting  till  Walters 
received  his  supplies  ? 

A.  He  said  they  would  not  issue  any  beef  until  Walters's  supplies  were 
received.  They  were  expecting  them  every  day.  An  issue  was  made 
the  third  day  after  WTalters  received  the  supplies. 

Q.  Mr.  Deer  was  a  trader  there  himself? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  had  his  supplies  there  '? 

A.  His  supplies  were  all  there,  I  suppose.  I  can  tell  you  something 
more  about  the  Indians  last  winter,  Governor.  Last  November,  when  I 
left  the  agency,  I  was  ordered  down  to  Sidney.  The  Red  Cloud  Indians 
started  about  the  same  time  to  the  South  Platte  on  their  annual  buffalo- 
hunt.  They  remained  down  in  that  neighborhood  until  about  March  of 
this  year.  I  do  not  believe  that  these  Indians  were  issued  any  beef 
whatever  last  winter. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  supplies  they  did  have? 

A.  I  think  there  were  about  three  car-loads  that  I  know  of  went  down 
to  Julesburg. 

Q.  Who  was  with  them  as  sub-agent,  who  was  in  charge  of  them  ? 

A.  Mr.  Brown.  He  told  me  that  there  were  about  5,000  Ked  Cloud 
Indians  under  his  charge. 

Q.  Might  they  not  have  got  beef  and  you  not  have  known  it? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  think  I  would  have  heard  of  it;  and  I  have  very  good 
reasons  for  knowing  that  they  did  not  get  any,  because  they  were  killing 
beef  belonging  to  the  settlers  along  the  South  Platte  River. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  information  to  the  effect  that  there  were  three 
hundred  beeves  issued  to  them  out  of  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  as  they  went 
along '? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  have  never  heard  of  any  being  issued. 

Q.  Might  it  not  have  been  done  and  you  not  know  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  might  have  been  done. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Brown  ? 


573 

A.  Yes,  sir  5  I  know  him  very  well.  He  was  along  with  the  Indians 
at  the  time.  He  came  down  by  the  way  of  Cheyenne  to  Sidney  by  rail. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Brown  a  reliable  man  in  his  statements,  as  far  as  you 
know? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  general  reputation  in  the  community  where  he  lives, 
as  far  as  you  have  heard  with  reference  to  it ;  is  he  regarded  as  a  relia 
ble  man  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  fact  of  those  Indians  killing  beeves  down  there,  would  that 
be  conclusive  to  your  mind  that  there  had  been  nothing  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Buffalo  were  scarce,  and  these  Indians  camped  on  the 
South  Platte  suffered  for  something  to  eat. 

Q.  Have  you  some  knowledge  of  Indians  and  experience  among  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  beef  do  you  suppose  it  would  be  necessary  to  issue  to 
a  band  of  Indians  like  that,  to  prevent  them  from  killing  beeves  along 
the  way  ?  That  is,  I  mean,  do  you  think  that  if  there  had  been  ever  so 
much  beef  issued  to  them  they  would  not  have  killed  other  beeves  along 
the  way  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  do  not  believe  they  would.  They  do  not  kill  any  now. 
They  get  their  beef  at  the  agency.  They  come  down  here  raiding  oc 
casionally,  but  they  never  kill  any  beeves.  Last  winter  they  did  it  con 
tinually,  and  gave  receipts  to  one  or  two  parties  that  I  know  of  for  beef, 
and  they  told  these  parties  to  take  those  receipts  to  their  agent,  and  he 
would  give  beeves  for  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Brown  was  with  them  then  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know,  sir.  He  would  go  down  there  and  stay  a  while  and 
then  come  home.  He  kept  going  backward  and  forward  quite  fre 
quently. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Brown  have  some  warehouses  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  distributed  supplies  that  were  received  among  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  were  brought  down  to  Julesburgh  and  there  dis 
tributed  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  How  far  is  Julesburgh  from  Sidney? 

A.  Thirty-five  miles  east  of  Sidney. 

Q.  Did  all  these  Indians  come  down  with  you  ! 

A.  They  were  traveling  on  the  road.  They  were  in  my  camp  every 
evening. 

Q.  You  have  never  learned  that  some  two  or  three  hundred  head  of 
cattle  were  distributed  to  them  after  they  arrived  at  the  Platte,  or  on 
their  way  down  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  1  cannot  say  where  they  were  distributed.  I  never  saw 
anything  that  indicated  that  any  cattle  had  been  killed  on  the  road. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  all  of  the  Indians  in  advance  of  you  ? 

A.  There  were  quite  a  number  in  front,  and  some  in  the  rear,  and 
some  with  me. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  If  Mr.  Brown  should  say  that  he  did  make  requisition  for  cattle 
and  cut  them  out  as  he  went  down,  do  you  have  confidence  enough  in 


574 

him  to  believe  his  statement,  in  spite  of  your  own  want  of  knowledge  on 
the  subject  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  what  to  say  about  that.  I  have  a  very  high  opin 
ion  of  Mr.  Brown.  I  think  myse1!  that  those  Indians  were  hungry  last 
winter,  and  I  think,  coming  down  from  the  agency,  they  told  me  that 
they  had  nothing.  They  came  into  camp  every  evening  begging  for 
something  to  eat.  The  buffaloes  were  very  scarce  down  there. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  statement  in  Dr.  Saville's  report  to  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  with  respect  to  the  matter  of  the  flag 
staff'.  After  some  preliminaries,  he  says:  "  I  still  did  not  think  there 
was  any  great  opposition  on  the  part  of  the  Indians,  for  it  had  been 
frequently  spoken  of  in  my  office,  and  some  of  the  Indians  had  been 
urging  me  to  put  up  a  council-house,  and  requested  that  I  put  a  pole  on 
it  and  get  a  flag  for  them."  Have  you  any  knowledge  that  will  enable 
you  to  say  whether  or  not  that  is  a  correct  representation  of  Dr.  Saville's 
action  in  the  matter  previous  to  the  day  on  which  the  affair  occurred  J? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  have  no  knowledge. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason,  from  your  own  knowledge,  to  doubt  that 
that  is  a  correct  report  of  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  attempt  to  put  up  a  flag  there  has  been  spoken  of  as  a  foolish 
act.  Do  you  so  regard  it u? 

A.  Well,  I  think  the  reasons  the  Doctor  gave  very  good. 

Q.  Now,  I  ask  you  whether  or  not,  in  your  judgment,  the  foolishness 
was  in  not  ascertaining  his  position  before  he  attempted  to  raise  it  ? 

A.  I  think  if  he  knew  they  objected  to  it,  he  should  not  have  attempted 
it ;  but  having  attempted  it,  he  ought  to  have  carried  it  out. 


TESTIMONY  OF  CAPTAIN  D.  MONAHAN. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  your  rank  and  position  ? 

Answer.  I  am  captain  in  the  Third  Cavalry.  United  States  Army, 
stationed  at  Sidney  Barracks.  Nebraska. 

Q.  Were  you  stationed  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  last  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  was  there  from  April  till  the  latter  part  of  October, 
1874. 

Q.  During  the  time  that  you  were  stationed  there,  had  you  any  op 
portunity  of  observing  the  general  conduct  and  management  of  affairs 
at  Eed  Cloud  agency  by  Agent  Saville  ? 

A.  Well,  I  was  present  at  a  few  issues  of  rations  to  the  Indians  when 
I  was  there  ;  not  a  great  many. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  to  the  commission  anything  that  you  ob 
served  there  that  seemed  to  you  to  be  irreguler  or  improper  ? 

A.  Not  as  to  the  quality  of  the  issues,  but  as  to  the  regularity  in  issu 
ing  them. 

Q.  That  is,  the  mode  of  issuing  them  1 

A.  I  sometimes  contrasted  their  manner  of  doing  business  there  with 
our  Subsistence  department  in  the  Army,  and  I  certainly  did  think  that 
they  were  very  loose  in  making  issues.  I  think  the  system  rather  loose 


575 

when  compared  with  our  Army  system.  I  have  seen  persons,  who 
handled  the  stores  in  issuing  to  Indians,  take  a  sack  of  flour  and  just 
turn  out  one-half  or  a  portion  of  it,  and  give  it  to  the  Indians  without 
weighing  it ;  the  same  with  sugar.  I  do  not  know  that  I  have  seen  them 
do  that  with  coffee,  but  I  have  with  sugar  and  flour. 

Q.  You  did  not  observe  whether  in  doing  that  they  were  attempting 
to  rely  upon  their  own  judgment  as  to  the  portion  of  the  sack  they  were 
emptying  out? 

A.  I  suppose  that  was  their  intention.  They  tried,  I  suppose,  to  give 
to  the  Indians  as  near  as  they  could  what  they  supposed  to  be  right.  I 
merely  noticed  it  as  a  loose  way  of  doing  business. 

A.  And  you  are  not  aware  whether,  when  they  were  scooping  out  the 
sugar  with  the  scoop,  they  knew  the  quantity  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  them  doing  it  with  a  scoop  and  without  a  scoop,  and 
without  weighing  it.  I  have  seen  them  do  that  with  flour  and  sugar. 

Q.  Well,  as  to  the  quality  of  the  supplies  you  have  seen  there;  what 
was  the  general  appearance  and  character  of  the  supplies  $ 

A.  I  think  during  the  latter  part  of  my  service  at  Red  Cloud  that  the 
flour  I  have  seen  there  was  much  better  than  they  had  been  issuing  when 
I  first  went  there.  The  first  two  or  three  mouths  the  flour  was  very 
dark,  a  poor  article.  The  sugar  was  very  common  brown  sugar,  rather 
dark  ;  but  it  appeared  to  be  dry  ;  I  thought  a  very  fair  quality  of  dark- 
brown  sugar.  It  was  quite  dry  and  in  good  condition.  The  coffee  I 
did  not  examine  closely.  I  just  saw  it  standing  off  a  short  distance;  I 
did  not  handle  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  pork  issued  there  during  last  fall  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  seen  pork.  That  which  I  saw  I  thought  to  be  a 
very  fair  article.  I  did  not  see  anything  wrong  with  it.  I  did  not  ex 
amine  it  closely.  It  looked  to  me  about  the  same  quality  of  pork  that  is 
issued  to  the  troops,  as  far  as  I  could  judge  without  examining  it 
closely. 

Q.  Bid  you  ever  notice  the  tobacco  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  tobacco  issued  to  the  Indians.  I  supposed 
it  to  be  a  very  inferior  article.  I  do  not  use  tobacco  in  that  shape.  I 
smoke  cigars,  but  do  not  use  it  in  any  other  way  ;  but  I  supposed  that 
to  be  a  bad  article  of  tobacco;  it  was  dark  and  wet.  I  did  not  handle 
it,  but  I  have  seen  the  Indians  bend  it  over  and  straighten  it  out  again 
and  it  would  not  break. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  beef-cattle  that  were  issued  there  last 
fall! 

A.  I  never  witnessed  a  beef-issue  to  the  Indians.  I  only  saw  the 
Indians  hunting  the  cattle  over  the  prairie  after  the  issue,  and  then 
they  were  some  distance  from  me.  I  have  never  been  close  to  the  cattle 
that  were  there  for  issue.  I  once  or  twice  passed  through  the  agent's 
herd  in  coining  from  Red  Cloud  agency  into  Fort  Laramie,  but  they 
were  then  probably  some  three  or  four  hundred  yards  from  the  road, 
and  I  did  not  examine  them  closely. 

Q.  Could  you  say,  from  what  you  saw  of  them,  what  the  general 
character  of  the  cattle  was  '? 

A.  The  cattle  that  I  remember  seeing  there  on  that  occasion,  I  think, 
were  very  fair  cattle — Texas  cattle.  I  do  not  know  whether  they  were 
all  steers  or  steers  and  cows.  They  appeared  to  be  a  very  good  class  of 
Texas  cattle. 

Q.  .Captain,  do  you  know  anything  of  the  taking  of  some  Indian  sup 
plies  down  to  Sidney,  and  the  sale  of  them  there  to  some  trader  or  by 
some  trader  ? 


576 

A.  I  have  only  beard  of  tbat,  sir,  since  your  commission  has  been 
investigating.  I  never  beard  of  it  before. 

Q.  Did  you  bear  it  spoken  of  by  any  one  wbo  professed  to  have  any 
knowledge  of  the  facts  ? 

A.  I  never  did,  sir. 

Q.  Was  what  you  beard  spoken  of,  simply  that  there  was  some  flour 
taken  to  Sidney  ? 

A.  I  remember  reading  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Moore,  a  former  store 
keeper  of  the  Indian  department  here,  (I  think  he  was  the  person,  if  I 
remember  right,  that  mentioned  this  circumstance;  I  read  bis  state 
ment  made  to  you,  at  all  events ;)  and  tbat  was  the  first  I  ever  heard  of 
supplies  being  sent  to  Sidney. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  since  frcni  any  person  who  spoke  of  their 
own  knowledge  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  have  discussed  the  subject  with  officers,  but  I  have 
never  beard  any  person  state  who  had  any  knowledge  of  it. 

Q.  Captain,  have  you  ever  read  Professor  Marsh's  statement  of  charges 
against  the  agency  at  lied  Cloud  ? 

A.  I  have  read  them  as  published  in  the  New  York  Tribune. 

Q.  Is  there  any  information  or  the  names  of  any  persons  that  you  can 
give  us  who  can  give  the  information  in  reference  to  any  matters  con 
tained  in  his  statements  other  than  you  have  given  now  f 

A.  1  can  state  nothing  of  my  own  knowledge,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  persons  whom  you  suppose  can 
give  us  any  information  upon  these  subjects? 

A.  The  person  who  I  suppose  would  be  the  most  likely  to  give  informa 
tion  on  these  subjects  is  a  man  named  Roberts,  wbo  was  Dr.  Saville's 
chief  clerk  at  the  agency.  I  do  not  know  whether  he  would  state  what 
he  knows  or  not. 

Q.  Is  there  any  otlier  that  you  know  of? 

A.  I  could  only  name  those  persons  about  the  agency  whom  1  suppose 
you  have  probably  already  seen.  I  know  a  great  many  from  there  wbo 
could  state,  if  they  were  disposed  to  state,  what  they  know  in  reference 
to  these  matters. 

Q.  So  there  are  no  names  of  persons  that  you  could  give  us  wbo  could 
give  us  information  in  reference  to  any  specific  matter  contained  in  these 
charges'? 

A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  person  who  could  give  \ou  any  particular 
information. 

Q.  Are  you  aware,  Captain,  of  any  fraud  on  the  part  of  the  Indian 
agent,  any  of  his  employes,  or  any  contractor,  or  any  other  person  in 
connection  with  the  Indian  department  here  ? 

A.  Except  by  rumor,  I  am  not.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge,  and 
do  not  know  of  any  person  who  has. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Were  you  present  when  Professor  Marsh  was  here? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  met  Professor  Marsh  going  to  the  agency  as  I  was  coming 
into  Laramie.  I  think  I  passed  him  at  Rawhide  Creek. 

Q.  Then  you  are  not  personally  acquainted  with  any  of  the  facts  which 
be  states  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  any  more  than  I  have  stated  in  my  testimony  as  to 
the  quality  of  the  goods  and  the  manner  of  issuing  them. 

Q.  What  information  do  you  suppose  Mr.  Roberts  could  communicate 
to  the  commission  if  he  were  disposed  to  tell?  What  is  your  under 
standing  of  what  information  he  lias? 


577 

A.  I  think  he  would  be  very  likely  to  give  the  very  fullest  information 
on  all  those  subjects  mentioned  by  Professor  Marsh,  as  he  was  not  only 
chief  clerk,  but  sometimes  acting  agent  in  the  absence  of  Dr.  Saville. 

Q.  Do  you  know  him  well  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  very  well.    I  have  seen  him  there  occasionally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  reputation  of  Eoberts  is  among  white  people 
about  the  agency  for  integrity,  honesty,  and  veracity  ! 

A.  From  my  knowledge  of  the  man,  and  from  what  I  have  heard  ex 
pressed  of  him  by  Army  officers,  he  is  a  very  unreliable  person. 

Q.  Is  Roberts  a  man  having  an  Indian  family  "? 

A.  I  think  not,  sir.     I  have  never  heard  that  he  had. 


CHEYENNE,  W.  T.,  Thursday,  August  2G,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 

TESTIMONY  OF  D.  H.  SNYDER. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Snyder,  please  state  your  residence  and  place  of  busi 
ness. 

Answer.  1  reside  in  Williamson  County,  Texas ;  Eound  Eock  is  my 
post-office.  I  have  been  engaged  in  the  cattle  business  for  some  time, 
since  1868,  and  have  been  driving  cattle  here  since  that  time.  I  have 
a  ranch  eighty  miles  north  of  here  on  the  Sabille,  thirty  miles  west  of 
Fort  Laramie.  I  have  wintered  cattle  here.  The  first  time  was  in 
1872. 

Q.  About  what  is  the  general  increase  in  the  size,  or  weight  rather, 
of  cattle,  say  three  or  four  year  old  steers,  in  keeping  them  over  one 
season  here  ? 

A.  The  increase  would  be  more  on  three-year  olds  than  on  four-year 
olds.  Three-year  olds  that  will  weigh  850  pounds  when  they  first  come 
here,  and  will  weigh  1,100  pounds  the  next  year.  That  would  be  after 
they  were  four  years  old. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  would  be  the  difference  of  the  four-year  olds  ? 

A.  In  the  four-year  olds  the  increase  would  not  be  so  heavy.  They 
would  increase  10  or  15  per  cent,  or  more  if  they  were  in  thin  condition. 
A  four-year  old  that  will  weigh  1,000  pounds  when  he  comes  here  will 
weigh  1,200  the  next  year.  That  is,  I  am  counting  range- weight  and 
not  shipping-weight ;  that  is,  to  weigh  them  without  lotting  them.  The 
difference  between  range- weight  and  shipping- weight  is  75  to  100 
pounds,  or  more  than  that,  taking  them  right  up  off  the  range.  A 
twelve-hours'  drive  will  make  it  about  that.  I  think  to  take  a  steer 
right  up  off  from  grass  and  water  and  weigh  him  and  then  ship  him  to 
Chicago  he  would  weigh  125  pounds  less,  but  if  taken  off  the  range 
and  lotted,  the  difference  would  be  forty  or  fifty  pounds.  In  running  to 
Chicago  they  get  very  gaunt,  more  so  than  they  would  on  twelve  hours7 
lotting. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  sell  Mr.  Bosler  any  cattle  f 

A.  I  never  sold  him  many.     I  sold  him  about  1,500  in  the  spring  of 
37  I  F 


578 

1873,  and  I  sold  him  750  calves  last  year.  Most  of  the  stock  which  I 
have  driven  here  has  been  the  class  of  stock  which  was  better  for  graz 
ing  than  that  which  he  could  pay  for,  and  was  younger  stock  than  he 
wanted.  The  class  of  cattle  I  sold  him  in  1873 Were  beeves  and  cows, 
three  years  old,  and  in  1874  they  were  all  cows. 

Q.  Were  there  among  those  cattle  any  yearlings  or  two-year  olds  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  In  the  fall  of  1873  I  drove  the  cattle  on  the  range  and 
wintered  them ;  they  were  beeves,  cows,  and  two-year  olds,  and  held 
them  until  the  next  season.  He  refused  to  take  the  two-year  olds.  We 
had  at  that  time  4,000  cattle  in  Idaho,  and  I  was  trying  to  close  them 
out  to  go  out  there. 

Q.  Could  you  form  an  estimate  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle  you  sold 
him  in  1873,  and  of  the  cows  in  1874? 

A.  I  could  not  form  an  estimate,  because  I  did  not  see  the  cattle  at 
all.  I  got  here  about  the  middle  of  January,  and  George  Bosler  came  on 
after  that — but  I  was  taken  sick  ;  after  I  began  to  get  well  George  Bos 
ler  came  in,  and  I  sold  him  the  cattle  while  sick  in  bed  ;  the  cattle  were 
in  good  condition,  but  I  could  form  no  estimate  of  their  weight ;  I  saw 
some  of  the  cattle  which  were  left,  and  they  were  in  good  condi 
tion  ;  the  cattle  which  were  left  were  young  cattle;  my  men  told  me 
that  the  cattle  which  George  Bosler  got  would  make  good  beef;  it  was 
the  first  year  which  we  had  wintered  cattle  here,  and  we  were  struck 
with  the  fact  that  the  cattle  had  done  so  well  here  in  the  winter — bet 
ter  than  we  had  anticipated.  The  cows  I  sold  him  in  1874  were  a 
good  square  lot  of  cows.  I  had  bought  a  lot  of  cattle  and  sold  the 
cows  and  kept  the  younger  cattle ;  I  suppose  the  cows  would  weigh 
about  850  pounds  ;  when  I  sold  them  they  were  just  off  the  trail ;  they 
were  a  superior  lot  of  cows,  because  they  were  old  cows  ;  I  sold  them  in 
August  or  September. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  they  increase  in  weight? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  they  increased  in  weight  until  winter.  Cattle  will  in 
crease  on  this  range  until  December.  Last  year  they  did  not  stop  im 
proving  until  about  January.  The  severity  of  the  winter  did  not  com 
mence  until  about  the  middle  of  January. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  it  regarded  by  cattle-men  in  this  part  of  the  country  that  there 
is  any  more  danger  in  herding  cattle  on  the  north  side  of  the  Platte 
than  on  the  south  side  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  we  have  not  considered  it  safe  on  account  of  the  Indians 
north  of  the  Platte.  When  we  went  out  on  the  Sabille  we  wrere  outside 
the  settlements  and  cattle-ranches,  and  considered  more  exposed  than 
any  other  ranch ;  that  was  two  years  ago.  We  had  not  been  there  but 
a  month  when  the  Indians  got  our  horses  ;  but  we  got  them  back  again 
yet  it  was  considered  a  mere  chance  that  we  did  so. 

<5«  You  are  pretty  well  acquainted,  I  presume,  with  the  men  who  drive 
cattle  up  here  from  Texas,  and  their  mode  of  carrying  on  that  trade; 
and  I  would  like  to  inquire  if  it  is  usual  for  the  men  who  drive  cattle 
here  to  pay  for  their  cattle  down  there,  in  part  or  in  whole,  before  they 
start  with  them  ! 

A.  When  we  first  commenced  driving  cattle  there  was  hardly  any 
cattle  paid  for  in  whole  or  in  part,  but  for  the  last  two  years  there  has 
been  more  cattle  paid  for  when  bought  than  formerly.  There  was  a 
custom  of  gathering  there  when  we  first  commenced  driving,  but  it  is 


579 

now  pretty  well  closed  out.  For  instance,  I  am  selling  you  cattle  5  I  am 
known  as  a  cattle-man  there,  and  I  put  in  all  my  own  cattle  and  my 
neighbors',  and  the  brands  are  taken  down  and  recorded  in  the  clerk's 
office ;  then  in  the  fall  or  winter  the  stock-men  will  meet  from  county 
to  county,  and  each  examine  the  records,  and  a  settlement  is  made  ac 
cording  to  the  records. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Are  the'cattle  weighed  before  leaving  Texas  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  they  are  all  sold  by  the  head.  The  system  of  handling 
cattle  there  is  changing.  Now  very  few  men  can  handle  any  cattle  but 
their  own ;  cattle  are  becoming  scarce  and  the  people  are  more  particular. 
The  cattle  are  getting  scarce  there  very  fast. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN : 

Q.  Have  you  had  in  your  experience  in  cattle-dealing  some  of  your 
herds  stampeded  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  on  the  roads  we  have  had.    I  have  never  heard  of  any 
thing  of  that  kind  occurring  on  the  range,  because  there  is  no  danger  of 
cattle  stampeding  unless  they  are  closely  herded  ;  the  closer  they  are 
herded  together  the  more  easily  they  are  stampeded. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  are  the  usual  causes  of  those  stampedes  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  it  is  from  various  causes.  A  steer  will  stampede  very 
easily,  just  like  a  man  getting  scared.  I  have  known  cattle  being  stam 
peded  by  a  rider  getting  down  off  his  horse  and  shaking  his  saddle.  We 
are  very  careful  in  driving  not  to  have  any  unaccustomed  noise  around 
them.  There  are  more  stampedes  from  driving  in  thunder  storms  and  bad 
rainy  nights  than  from  anything  else. 

Q.  I  should  like  for  you,  Mr.  Snyder,  to  furnish  us  now  the  prices  that 
are  paid  in  Texas  for  cattle  one,  two,  three,  and  four  years  old. 

A.  We  have  usually  paid  there  for  the  last  three  years,  up  to  last 
year,  $3  for  yearlings.  Last  year  they  were  $3.50  and  $4.  For  two-year 
olds  we  pay  $5  and  $5.50  ;  cows,  $7  and  $8  ;  three-year  olds,  $9  and  $10 ; 
and  for  some  of  the  classes  of  cattle,  for  beef,  $12  and  $14.  By  beeves 
I  mean  four-year-old  steers,  and  over.  I  live  sixteen  miles  from  Austin. 
When  I  first  commenced  this  cattle  business  my  county  was  the  fore 
most  county  in  the  State.  The  cattle  north  and  west  of  Austin  are  bet 
ter  than  the  cattle  south  and  southwest,  and  generally  have  been  a 
little  higher.  I  have  been  accustomed  to  driving  beeves  and  stock 
cattle.  1  never  drive  beeves  alone.  I  did  so  in  1869. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  would  be  your  estimate  of  the  average  weight  of  beeves 
four  years  old  and  upward,  driven  from  Texas  here,  and  delivered  on 
the  Platte,  and  weighed  from  the  range? 

A.  That  would  vary  in  the  way  the  cattle  were  delivered.  In  other 
words,  you  take  a  lot  of  cattle,  handled  well,  and  they  would  average 
better  than  others.  An  average  drove  would  average  from  1,000  to  1,050, 
and  that  depends,  too,  somewhat  upon  the  part  of  the  country  they  come 
from.  If  they  came  from  Western  Texas,  they  would  run  from  1,000  to 
1,050.  Get  them  from  the  extreme  eastern  part  of  Texas,  they  would  not 
weigh  more  than  900  pounds  ;  but  there  are  no  cattle  driven  from  there 
now.  I  have  seen  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  this  year.  I  saw  them  passing  up 
the  Platte,  near  Ogallalla,  about  twenty  miles  below  Sidney.  I  never  went 
through  one  herd.  1  saw  three  or  four.,  1  rode  through  one  herd  while 


580 

I  was  coining  down  with  a  lot  of  beeves  for  shipment,  and  I  suppose  there 
were  2,500  in  the  herd.  They  were  steers  and  cows,  and  they  were  toler 
ably  fair  cattle.  I  would  call  them  average  cattle ;  not  fat,  but  an  aver 
age  lot  of  cattle,  in  a  fair  condition.  The  average  weight  of  the  herd 
would  be  900  pounds.  I  think  the  same  cattle  would  weigh  much  more 
on  a  good  range.  I  saw  three  thousand,  I  think  ;  they  had  just  arrived, 
as  I  understood,  and  the  average  of  them  would  increase  100  pounds  in 
ninety  days  on  the  herd  if  they  were  turned  loose.  They  would  increase 
more  in  ninety  days  from  the  1st  of  August  than  in  the  niuefy  days  previ 
ous.  They  would  increase  more  than  cattle  in  better  flesh.  August,  Sep 
tember,  and  October  are  the  best  months.  I  saw  seven  thousand  head 
altogether.  I  was  attending  to  my  own  cattle,  and  did  not  examine  them. 
I  do  not  remember  being  in  their  herd.  I  was  on  one  side  and  they 
were  on  the  other  side  of  the  river. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Could  you  give  us  the  cost  and  expense  of  driving  cattle  from 
Texas  here  ? 

A.  That  has  varied  very  much  during  the  last  three  years.  We  used 
to  drive  from  ten  to  fifteen  hundred  in  a  herd,  and  thought  we  had  a 
very  big  herd,  and  when  we  commenced  we  used  to  put  one  man  to  one 
hundred  cattle,  and  have  to  pay  him  a  big  price.  That  was  in  1808  to 
1871,  and  they  would  cost  fully  $3  per  head.  Xow  we  bring  them  up  in 
herds  of  two  thousand.  We  don't  hire  men  as  we  used  to ;  we  furnish 
them  horses,  and  pay  them  less  wages.  We  used  to  pay  from  $60  to 
$75  per  month,  and  they  furnished  their  own  horses  ;  now  we  furnish 
them  horses,  and  give  them  from  $25  to  $80  per  month.  The  first  year 
we  drove  beeves  alone.  There  is  more  risk  in  driving  small  herds  of 
cattle  from  Texas  than  large  herds,  and  it  is  also  better  to  have  part 
cows,  as  they  are  more  peaceful. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  W'hat  is  the  difference  between  net  and  gross  weight,  say  of  a  steer 
weighing  one  thousand  pounds,  at  Chicago  ? 

A.  A  steer  in  good  condition  would  net  60  per  cent.  beef. 

Q.  What  do  you  suppose  would  be  the  weight  of  the  same  steer  taken 
right  off  the  grass  here  and  killed  ? 

A.  It  would  net  about  50  per  cent. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  why  the  cattle-dealers  here  do  not  take  the  con 
tract  here  for  supplying  Indian  agencies  ? 

A.  Wfe  would  prefer  to  sell  our  herds  here  at  a  profit,  so  that  we  can 
go  back  and  invest  our  money  in  Texas  for  more  cattle.  Another  rea 
son  in  my  own  case  is,  that  I  furnished  some  cattle  for  the  Fort  Hall  In 
dian  agency  in  March,  1874,  and  have  never  got  my  pay  for  them.  I 
still  hold  the  voucher  for  them ;  and  in  June,  1874,  £  furnished  83,326 
pounds  of  beef  for  the  Fort  Hall  Indian  agency  in  Idaho,  and  have  never 
got  the  pay  for  them,  either.  The  beef  was  killed  and  issued  to  the 
Indians  off  the  block.  The  reason  I  did  not  get  paid  for  this  was  owing 
to  a  deficiency  in  the  appropriation. 


581 

DENVER,  C.  T.,  Saturday,  August  28, 1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Hon. 
CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  W.  ILIFF. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Iliff,  please  state  your  business  and  place  of  residence. 

Answer.  My  residence  is  Denver ;  my  business  is  that  of  stock-raising 
and  that  of  buying  and  selling  cattle.  I  have  been  engaged  in  that 
business  since  1862. 

Q.  To  what  extent  are  you  a  dealer  in  cattle? 

A.  I  buy  and  sell  from  three  to  eight  thousand  cattle  a  year,  and  have 
been  doing  so  for  the  last  ten  years ;  and  for  the  last  ten  years  it  would 
average  over  five  thousand  a  year.  I  buy  Texas  cattle  principally,  but  some 
mixed.  I  buy  the  herds  as  they  are  driven  here ;  young  cattle,  generally 
from  one  to  three  years  old.  Sometimes  I  buy  older  cattle.  I  used  to  deal 
in  older  cattle,  but  for  the  last  three  years  I  have  dealt  in  younger  cattle. 
I  buy  them,  and  turn  them  on  my  range  until  they  are  matured  for  beef. 
I  allow  them  to  reach  the  age  of  four  years  old  before  I  sell  them.  I 
sometimes  sell  them  at  three  years  old.  J  send  my  beef  to  Chicago.  I 
deal  in  steers  altogether  now  ;  I  used  to  deal  in  mixed  cattle  and  cows 
to  some  extent,  but  for  the  last  four  years  bought  exclusively  steers.  I 
herd  my  cattle  on  the  South  Platte  and  Crow  Creek. 

Q.  At  four  years  old  a  steer  that  has  been  here  one  year  will  average 
how  much  ? 

A.  On  the  range  they  will  average  1,200  pounds.  The  way  they  weigh, 
them  here  is  twelve  hours  oft'  water  and  grass.  If  they  are  driven  off 
the  range  on  to  the  scales,  they  will  weigh  1,100  pounds.  A  four-year- 
old  Texas  steer,  fat  enough  for  shipping,  will  weigh  that  much.  We 
usually  take  them  off  the  range,  put  them  in  the  corral  for  twelve  hours, 
without  water  or  feed,  and  weigh  them,  and  then  we  calculate  they  will 
weigh  from  20  to  30  pounds  less.  I  have  weighed  cattle  off  from  grass 
and  water,  and  deducted  30  pounds  from  their  proper  weight.  A  fat 
steer,  taken  right  off  of  grass  and  water,  would  weigh  1,100  pounds  if  ship 
ped  to  Chicago,  but  weigh  him  off  the  cars,  and  there  would  be  nearly  10 
per  cent,  shrinkage  for  the  gross  weight.  If  we  were  to  feed  them  after 
they  arrive  at  Chicago,  it  would  not  be  quite  so  much.  We  calculate  10 
per  cent,  shrinkage  on  cattle  taken  off  grass  and  then  shipped  to  Chi 
cago,  and  weigh  them  right  off  the  car;  but  to  feed  arid  water  them,  there, 
would  be  20  pounds  difference  between  the  car-weight  and  after  they 
are  fed.  I  have  tried  that  several  times;  I  wanted  to  know  for  my  own 
benefit.  We  have  occasion  often  to  sell  cattle  right  off  the  range,  and  it 
is  not  convenient  to  weigh  them,  and  we  want  to  make  an  estimate  of 
what  we  are  getting  in  Chicago. 

Q.  We  have  been  talking  abttut  cattle  which  you  have  taken  on  your 
range  and  fatted.  Now,  are  you  acquainted  with  the  general  character 
of  four-year-old  steers,  which  are  called  the  average  cattle  from  Texas  ? 

A.  Well,  I  am  not  as  well  acquainted  with  them  as  with  cattle  which 
have  been  ranged  here.  I  have  seen  herds  of  beef-cattle  as  they  have 
come  from  Texas. 

Q.  What  is  their  comparative  size  with  those  you  have  fed  ? 

A.  Well,  there  is  a  great  difference  between  the  herds  that  come  up 
from  Texas.  I  would  not  like  to  give  an  opinion  without  seeing  them. 
A  herd  of  Texas  cattle,  or  what  is  called  an  average  herd  of  cattle  which 


582 

had  not  been  topped  arid  picked  out  of,  and  seven  years  old,  would  be 
larger  than  four-year  olds  and  would  weigh  more.  I  never  consider  it  as 
'profitable  to  handle  seven-year  olds  as  four-year  olds.  I  prefer  young 
cattle.  The  whole  herd  would  be  larger  in  size  perhaps,  but  not  so  heavy 
in  weight.  They  would  not  be  fat ;  what  they  would  weigh  w^ould  be  a 
matter  of  guess-work.  Take  an  average  herd  as  they  are  driven  up  here 
and  they  would  go  about  900  pounds  ;  they  might  go  a  little  less  or  they 
might  go  more.  It  would  depend  upon  their  age  and  the  manner  in 
which  they  are  driven  and  the  number  of  older  cattle. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  of  a  herd  driven  through  and  put  on  this  range; 
would  they  be  likely  to  change  in  weight  f 

A.  Well,  our  calculation  is  in  a  three-year  old  steer,  we  can  put  on  by 
keeping  him  a  year  200  pounds,  by  allowing  him  to  run  on  the  range. 
On  a  four-year  old  steer  we  can  get  a  little  more.  We  pretend  to  do 
nothing  with  cattle  until  they  have  been  held  on  the  range  one  year.  We 
receive  them  about  the  1st  of  July,  and  hold  all  three-year  old  steers 
over  until  August  or  September  of  the  next  year  when  we  ship  theinT 
but  our  two-year  olds  we  keep  until  they  are  four  years  old.  Sometimes 
we  ship  a  few  three-year  olds  late. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  effect  upon  a  herd  of  Texas  cattle  which  arrived 
here  in  June  or  July  of  keeping  them  until  the  middle  of  December? 

A.  Those  cattle  turned  out  on  the  range  would  increase  in  size,  but 
not  in  fat.  An  animal  will  fill  up  in  all  appearances,  but  will  not  weigh 
heavy.  I  think  fifty  pounds  would  be  a  fair  average  to  put  on  a  steer 
driven  up  in  July  or  August  and  kept  until  the  following  September  or 
October. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  cattle  sold  to  Mr.  Bosler  for  the  Indian 
agencies  ? 

A.  None  at  all  this  year.  I  saw  some  this  year  which  had  not  been 
turned  over  yet,  but  they  were  intended  for  him.  They  were  Mabry's 
and  Littlefield's;  I  saw  them  at  Ogalalla  on  the  South  Platte.  I  saw  Mr. 
Littlefield  as  they  were  said  to  be  turned  over;  they  were  coming  on  the 
road  to  be  turned  over  to  Bosler's  herd  on  the  way  to  the  agency.  I 
should  judge  there  were  in  that  herd  from  fifteen  hundred  to  two 
thousand •  they  were  all  steers  I  think ;  I  don't  remember  seeing  any 
cows.  I  thought  the  general  appearance  of  that  herd  was  very  good. 
They  were  in.  a  good  condition  to  have  come  through  from  Texas.  I  re 
marked  at  the  time  that  those  cattle  were  in  a  better  condition  than 
cattle  are  generally  coming  through  from  Texas.  From  what  I  saw  of  that 
herd,  I  would  put  them  above  the  average,  and  think  they  would  go 
from  950  to  1,000  pounds.  I  give  this  as  my  general  opinion  without 
having  examined  them  so  carefully  as  if  I  was  going  to  purchase,  and 
therefore  hesitate  somewhat  in  giving  this  opinion.  I  bought  of  Ma- 
bry  and  Millett  six  thousand  young  cattle  out  of  their  herds,  one,  two, 
and  three  years  old  steers.  The  larger  cattle  or  steers  I  understood 
would  go  to  Bosler.  That  is  what  Mr.  Mabry  told  me  himself.  I  did 
not  observe  closely  the  character  of  the  four-year  olds,  because  they  were 
mixed  up,  and  I  hardly  look  at  cattle  when  they  are  mixed  up  so  closely ;. 
it  is  hard  to  make  an  estimate  of  them.  My  own  ideas  were  that  those 
cattle  were  a  fair  lot  of  Texas  cattle,  but  I  did  not  observe  them  closely. 
They  might  have  been  as  good  as  Mr.  Li ttleti eld's  if  they  had  been 
cut  out  by  themselves.  Mr.  Littlefiled's  had  been  all  cut  out  an  hour 
previous.  Their  health  and  their  general  appearance  seemed  to  be  good. 
They  looked  in  as  good  condition  as  cattle  are  generally,  driven  from 
Texas. 


583 

Q.  Would  you  describe  such  cattle  in  either  of  those  herds  you  saw, 
of  Mabry's  or  Littlefield's,  as  beef? 

A.  No,  we  do  not.  I  should  not  consider  them  in  a  condition  for 
beef.  But  the  Texas  people  and  drivers  caU  everything  beef  that  is  four 
years  old  and  upward.  Our  market  is  Chicago,  and  we  have  to  furnish 
a  better  class  than  that. 

Q.  What  would  you  understand  if  a  contract  said  you  were  to  deliver 
5,400,000  pounds  of  beef  averaging  on  the  hoof  850  pounds  and  up  ward  5 
what  would  you  say  would  fill  that  contract? 

A.  Well,  I  would  have  to  be  governed  somewhat  on  the  class  of  cat 
tle  which  they  have  been  accustomed  to  put  in  those  contracts.  But 
we  should  not  call  them  beef  at  all  for  the  Chicago  market.  A  great 
many  are  sold,  but  not  sold  for  beef;  but  to  be  fed  and  fattened,  not  to  be 
killed  as  beef.  They  are  disposed  of  in  this  way  :  A  fattener  will  come  in 
and  buy  a  large  number  of  these  cattle  to  feed  for  the  butchers  to  buy, 
and  dispose  of  the  remainder  the  best  he  can.  They  tank  some  and  dis 
pose  of  what  portion  they  can.  No  cattle  are  tanked  except  the 
very  lowest  grades  and  scalawags — those  which  can  be  bought  for  the 
very  lowest  price. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  to  enter  into  a  contract  to  furnish  a  certain 
quantity  of  marketable  beef  or  of  merchantable  beef,  what  would  you 
understand  by  that  term  ? 

A.  Well,  if  I  was  furnishing  it  to  the  Government  for  the  military 
posts,  I  would  expect  to  put  in  a  good  class  of  beef,  as  good  as  they 
buy  in  this  market,  but  if  I  was  going  to  put  them  in  on  an  Indian  con 
tract,  I  would  expect  to  put  in  some  pretty  hard  cattle. 

Q.  What  would  you  understand  by  the  term  "merchantable  beef!'7 

A.  Well,  beef  that  will  give  satisfaction  to  any  one  that  will  eat  beef ; 
that  which  will  sell  in  an  ordinary  market. 

Q.  Why  would  you  furnish  better  beef  to  the  Army  than  to  the  In 
dians  ? 

A.  The  reason  is  this  :  In  putting  in  beef  to  the  military  we  have  to 
slaughter  all  the  beef,  and  it  is  issued  from  the  block,  cut  up  from  1,  2, 
3,  to  10  pounds,  whatever  they  require,  and  for  that  reason  we  would 
have  to  sell  a  good  quality  of  beef,  because  they  would  not  accept  it  if 
we  did  not,  but  if  we  were  putting  it  in  on  the  hoof  we  would  put  in 
whatever  they  would  take,  and  it  requires  a  good  judge  of  cattle  on  the 
hoof  to  distinguish  a  fat  animal  from  a  fleshy  one. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  to  tell  the  quality  of  the  beef  from  the  appearance  of 
the  cattle  ? 

A.  Well,  it  is  not  possible  for  every  one  to  tell.  Men  who  are  accus 
tomed  to  handling  beef  can  do  so.  It  would  avoid  all  this  difficulty  if 
the  Government  would  kill  the  beef  and  issue  it  to  the  Indians  from  the 
block.  They  would  then  get  a  good  quality  of  beef ;  for  after  it  is  cut 
up  it  is  very  easy  to  tell  it'  it  is  a  good  quality  of  beef. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  made  this  distinction :  that  in  supplying  a  military  post,  in 
cutting  it  up,  you  would  have  to  give  good  beef.  Could  you  supply  to 
a  military  post  a  poorer  class  of  cattle  on  the  hoof  than  would  be  ac 
cepted  on  the  block  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  unless  they  would  have  an  officer  to  inspect  this  beef 
who  was  accustomed  to  make  a  distinction  ;  but  there  is  not  one  in  ten 
who  could  make  the  distinction.  I  know  this  from  experience;  because 


584 

I  have  furnished  cattle  on  the  block  to  military  posts,  and  on  the  hoof, 
too. 

Q.  I  intended  to  ask  you  if  you  knew  anything  about  the  cattle  which 
were  turned  over  to  the  Boslers  last  year? 

A.  I  know  nothing  except  the  reports  which  I  heard,  but  paid  little 
attention  to  them.  I  know  the  Boslers  personally;  but  know  noth 
ing  about  their  business  matters,  as  I  have  never  had  any  dealings  with 
them. 

Q.  What  is  their  reputation  in  the  business  community  as  men  of 
fair  dealing  and  integrity  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is  generally  understood  among  business  men  engaged  in 
dealing  in  cattle,  that  they  put  in  a  class  of  cattle  for  the  Indian  con 
tracts  that  would  not  be  salable  in  any  other  market.  I  don't  pretend 
to  say  that  they  do  this ;  but  they  have  the  reputation  of  buying  that 
class  of  cattle. 

Q.  If  there  is  anything  else  you  know  about  this  Indian  business,  either 
of  cattle  or  anything  else,  which  goes  to  establish  the  proposition  that 
there  have  been  frauds  committed,  I  wish  you  would  inform  us. 

A.  I  never  was  at  one  of  those  agencies,  and  never  saw  the  cattle 
"which  were  issued,  and  know  nothing  about  it.  But  if  there  is  one 
thing  which  ought  to  be  impressed  upon  the  Government  it  is  that  the 
beef  which  is  issued  to  these  Indians  ought  to  be  slaughtered  and  issued 
to  them  from  the  block, as  it  is  to  the  soldiers.  There  is  no  waste  then, 
and  if  the  beef  was  not  good  it  could  be  rejected ;  but  it  is  not  possible 
to  do  it  when  the  beef  is  issued  on  the  hoof.  I  have  no  interest  in  any 
contracts,  or  with  any  of  those  parties,  whatever.  I  am  interested  only 
as  any  other  citizen  of  the  Union.  I  dislike  to  see  things  wasted  ;  and 
while  I  do  not  see  any  of  it,  I  am  fully  satisfied  that  there  are  a  great 
many  wastes  in  these  issues  to  the  Indians,  and  the  principal  cause  is  in 
the  way  the  issues  are  made. 


KANSAS  CITY,  Mo.,  Monday,  August  30,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  CHARLES  J. 
FAULKNER,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

TESTIMONY  OF  E.  E.  THRELKELD. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Knnsas  City  ? 

Answer.  About  twenty-seven  years — a  little  more  than  twenty-seven 
years. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  business  during  that  time  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  the  principal  part  of  the  time  I  have  been  in  the  mer 
cantile  business.  I  was  for  a  number  of  years  in  the  Indian  supply 
ing  business,  supplying  Indiau  traders  and  Indian  posts  under  our  con 
trol  ;  that  is,  such  as  were  conducted  by  agents  of  ours.  1  was  in  that 
business  previous  to  the  war,  but  since  that  time  I  have  been  in  the 
grocery  and  provision  business  in  this  city. 

Q.  I  want  to  inquire  of  you  if  the  pork  which  you  mention  in  your 
communications  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  of  November  25 
and  27, 1874,  as  having  been  inspected  by  you,  was  of  the  kind  and  qual 
ity  mentioned  in  those  communications,  and  what  your  mode  of  inspec 
tion  was  I 


585 

A.  The  pork  was  of  the  kind  named  there.  Upon  examining  the 
packages,  1  discovered  that  they  did  not  comply  with  the  requirements 
of  the  contract,  from  the  fact  that  they  did  not  have  the  iron  hoops  at 
the  end  of  each  barrel,  as  required  by  the  contract.  I  required  Slaveus 
to  put  the  hoops  on.  and  while  that  was  being  done  I  examined  the  pork 
by  removing  it  from  the  barrel  and  weighing  it  and  inspecting  it.  I 
uiade  the  men  carry  it  in  the  house,  and  I  weighed  it  myself.  Of  course, 
I  did  not  remove  the  pork  from  every  barrel,  but  from  quite  a  number 
of  barrels  of  each  lot — of  each  car-load. 

Q.  Of  what  is  this  prime  mess-pork  composed — what  portions  ? 

Q.  It  is  composed  of  middling  and  the  shoulder— not  all  shoulder-pork 
and  not  all  middling;  it  is  mixed. 

Q.  You  said  in  your  communication  that  it  was  all  sweet,  good,  sound 
pork  of  the  quality  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  was  in  good  condition. 

Q.  Then  this  prime  mess-pork  was  a  good  article  of  prime  mess-pork"? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  was  better-looking  pork  than  the  first  200  barrels ;  it 
was  not  quite  so  old,  and  it  was  very  large,  and  in  good  condition. 

Q.  With  your  experience  in  the  matter  of  handling  that  kind  of  pork, 
what  is  the  "effect  of  the  leaking  of  the  brine  out  of  a  barrel  of  pork  ? 

A.  It  is  very  bad ;  it  produces  rust  and  spoils  the  pork. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  inspected  pork  before  that  time  for  Mr.  Slavens — be 
fore  that  contract1? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  never  had.  I  did  not  even  know  I  was  appointed  to  in 
spect  it  until  he  called  upon  me  to  inspect  it.  The  year  previous  I  in 
spected  supplies  for  the  Indian  Department;  that  is,  bacon  and  flour;  but 
I  did  not  know  I  would  be  called  upon  to  inspect  this  pork. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  inspected  any  Indian  supplies  of  any  kind  before  that 
for  Mr.  Slavens  ? 

A.  Not  unless  I  inspected  flour.  I  may  have  inspected  some  flour 
before  that;  I  don't  recollect:  I  could  tell  by  reference  to  my  book; 
but  I  think  not.  I  think  the  pork  was  the  first  I  inspected  under  Mr. 
Slavens'  contract. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  Mr.  Slavens  having  previous  contracts  for  the  In 
dian  Department? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  1  never  heard  of  his  having  a  contract  before.  I  think  I 
probably  heard  of  his  having  a  contract  for  beef  the  year  before,  but  I 
am  not  positive  of  that — or  was  interested  with  other  parties. 

Q.  Well,  the  price  at  which  this  pork  was  furnished  by  Mr.  Slavens : 
how  did  that  compare  with  the  market  price  of  similar  pork  here  at  the 
time? 

A.  Well,  the  first  200  barrels  were  at  a  less  price  than  the  market- 
rates  here  for  the  same  quality  of  pork ;  I  think  about  $2  a  barrel  less 
than  the  market-price  here. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  how  it  was  as  to  the  other  ? 

A.  After  the  first  200  barrels  were  delivered,  and  about  the  time  he 
delivered  the  next  lot  of  pork,  I  think  pork  had  declined  in  price,  and 
was  worth  less  than  it  was  when  he  commenced  filling  the  contract. 
That  is  only  from  memory,  however;  that  is  my  impression  of  the 
market-price ;  I  don't  remember  exactly  the  quotations. 

Q.  What  is  Mr.  Slavens's  business  here  ? 

A.  Well,  he  is  what  we  call  a  pork-packer  here ;  he  gets  hogs  and 
sells  them  in  the  market  as  other  packers  do,  sometimes  in  the  shape 
of  bacon,  sometimes,  I  believe,  from  the  block,  and  sometimes  puts  it 
in  barrels.  He  has  also  packed  beef. 


586 

Q.  Does  he  do  a  pretty  large  business  at  packing  pork  in  the  pack 
ing-season  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  does  a  tolerably  large  business,  only  not  the  largest 
in  town,  but  a  very  fair  business. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  are  any  persons  west  of  here  who  do 
a  larger  business  in  that  way  than  he  does  I 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not.     I  don't  know  one  west  of  Kansas  City. 

Q.  Is  he  regarded  in  this  community  as  a  responsible  man  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is  also  regarded  as  a  reliable  business-man — what  we 
would  call  reliable,  an  honorable  business-man  ;  perhaps  he  enjoys  as  fine 
a  reputation  in  that  way  as  any  man  in  the  city. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  time  you  inspected  the  pork,  the  first  200  barrels,  it  was  worth 
in  this  market  $2  or  $3  more  than  he  was  getting  for  it  ? 

A.  Yes ;  it  was  worth  at  least  $2,  and,  I  think,  probably  $3. 

Q.  Hadn't  you  a  copy  of  the  proposals  with  you  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  bad ;  but  I  don't  know  whether  I  have  it  now  or  not. 
It  may  be  among  those  papers. 

Q.  Have  you  a  copy  of  the  advertisement  with  you? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  think  I  ever  had  them  as  published  in  the  news 
papers.  I  had  one  in  pamphlet  form. 

O.  Now,  what  was  prime  pork  bringing  in  the  market  at  the  time  you 
inspected  it  ? 

A.  I  don't  recollect  exactly  what  prime  pork  was  worth  at  the  time  ; 
it  was  worth  less  than  mess  pork,  about  81.50  less,  probably  $2  a  barrel 
less ;  I  don't  recollect  the  difference  in  the  various  grades,  as  I  was  not 
handling  pork  on  my  own  account. 

Q.  When  he  presented  you  the  first  200  barrels  for  inspection  you 
passed  it  as  good  pork  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  then  asked  you  to  inspect  GOO  barrels  of  prime  pork  ? 

A.  We  call  it  prime  mess. 

Q.  Wherein  is  the  difference  between  mess  pork  and  prime  mess  ? 

A.  Prime  mess  is  the  shoulder  and  the  middle,  and  mess  is  simply  the 
middle  without  the  shoulder. 

Q.  But  both,  as  I  understand  you,  cut  through  the  ribs  ? 

A.  A  portion  of  the  rib  is  taken  out ;  it  is  riot  all  taken  out ;  a  portion 
of  the  short  ribs  are  left  in  ;  but  in  mess  pork,  I  don't  know  but  in  some 
places  they  take  it  all  out,  and  some  don't  take  it  out  at  all.  In  the  first 
200  barrels  there  was  a  little  rib  in  it,  and  in  the  last  there  was  all  the 
rib  and  the  shoulder. 

Q.  What  was  the  size  of  the  pork  as  compared  with  the  other  ? 

A.  There  wasn't  much  difference  in  size  ;  it  was  all  large  pork. 

Q.  How  much  would  they  average  in  weight  ? 

A.  I  think  they  would  average  probably  250  pounds. 

Q.  Do  you  think  both  kinds  were  about  the  same  size  pork? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  my  recollection  of  it. 

Q.  Could  you  judge  about  how  long  it  had  been  packed  ? 

A.  Well,  the  pork  in  the  first  200  barrels  had  been  packed  some  time, 
but  not  so  long  as  the  other  ;  that  is  my  impression. 

Q.  WTere  both  lots  somewhat  old  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  they  were  not  very  old  lots  of  pork  by  any  means. 

Q.  How  long  should  you  think  they  had  been  packed  ? 

A.  I  should  think  the  first  pork  inspected  had  probably  been  packed 
the  spring  or  winter  before. 


587 

Q.  And  the  last  ? 

A.  The  last  lot  was  fall  packing;  had  just  been  packed  ;  it  was  new 
pork. 

Q.  And  perfectly  sweet,  you  say  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  properly  salted  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  tell,  while  the  contract  was  silent  as  to  whether  it  should 
be  mess  or  prime,  why  you  should  not  insist  upon  the  best  when  you 
were  acting  for  the  Government  ? 

A.  I  did  ;  I  insisted  upon  the  best.  Mr.  Slavens  called  my  attention 
to  the  fact  that  it  was. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  why  the  Government  should  not  demand  first  quality 
if  the  contract  is  silent  on  the  subject,  as  well  as  Slavens  should  insist 
upon  the  second  or  third  quality? 

A.  I  have  no  reason. 

Q.  If  the  contract  is  silent  on  the  subject,  why  should  not  the  Gov 
ernment  have  the  benefit  of  it  as  well  as  Mr.  Slavens  in  determining  the 
quality  of  the  pork  by  the  inspection? 

A.  Well,  that  is  a  question  I  am  not  able  to  answer.  I  suppose  if 
I  were  buying  of  you,  or  Mr.  Slavens,  or  any  other  person,  a  certain 
amount  of  any  given  article,  I  should  certainly  have  the  grade  spe 
cified  in  the  contract,  the  particular  kind. 

Q.  You  were  acting,  not  for  Mr.  Slavens,  but  for  the  Government. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  began  by  inspecting  mess  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  his  request,  you  passed  as  sound  pork  a  quality  below  that 
grade,  because  it  was  pork? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  had  not  noticed  the  terms  of  the  contract  at  the  time  I 
inspected  the  first ;  I  supposed,  of  course,  it  required  mess  pork,  and 
when  he  presented  me  mess  pork,  I  found  it  merchantable,  I  passed  it. 

Q.  Didn't  he  tell  you  he  could  not  go  on  supplying  the  contract  at 
821  a  barrel  when  he  had  to  pay  $24  for  it,  and  that  he  must  change 
the  quality  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  said  that  parties  who  had  the  contract  at  Omaha  and 
above  here  were  all  furnishing  that  class  of  pork,  and  he  did  not  see 
why  I  should  be  so  conscientious  and  refuse  to  accept  the  same  pork 
that  they  received ;  and  I  did  not  feel  that  I  wanted  to  be  over  partic 
ular,  and  if  they  were  receiving  that  kind  of  pork,  of  course  I  had  no 
right  to  dispute  what  he  said  about  it. 

Q.  You  did  not  communicate  with  the  Department  before  accepting 
the  GOO  barrels  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  but  I  did  so  immediately  afterward.  I  find  I  have  the 
advertisement  here. 

Q.  In  the  letter,  Commissioner  Smith  says.  "  It  appears  that  the  De 
partment  calls  for  mess  pork,  but  by  a  clerical  error  the  word  mess  is 
omitted  from  the  contract."  Now  will  you  turn  to  the  advertisement  and 
see  what  it  says  ? 

A.  I  find  the  advertisement  for  proposals  for  furnishing  pork  for  the 
Red  Cloud  agency  reads :  "  240,000  pounds  mess  pork,  in  barrels."  I 
would  like  to  say,  further,  that  in  connection  with  that  contract  with 
Mr.  Slavens  I  never  received  a  copy  of  the  advertisement,  but,  attached 
to  the  contract  for  soap  with  Godwin,  Behr  &  Co.,  I  received  a  copy 
of  the  advertisement. 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  receive  a  copy  of  the  contract  ? 


588 

A.  From  the  Indian  Office. 

Q.  Before  or  after  Mr.  Slavens  called  on  you  to  inspect  the  first  lot  of 
his  pork  ? 

A.  That  I  cannot  answer,  whether  it  was  before  or  after  I  inspected 
the  first  lot;  I  don't  recollect,  but  I  presume  it  was  before. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recollection  now  whether  Mr.  Slavens  furnished  you 
a  copy  of  the  contract,  or  whether  you  received  it  from  the  Department 
before  yon  inspected  the  pork  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  I  received  it  after,  because  I  think  in  the 
first  certificate  I  gave  I  could  not  fill  up  the  blank  in  the  certificate 
giving  the  date  of  the  contract ;  if  I  did,  it  was  from  information  re 
ceived  from  Mr.  Slavens  as  to  the  date  of  the  contract ;  but  after  that  I 
got  the  contract. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  advertisement  before  you  inspected  the  600  bar 
rels  of  prime  mess  pork  ? 

A,  I  think  I  did,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  having  the  advertisement  before  you  which  called  for  mess 
pork,  and  the  contract  which  was  silent  upon  the  subject  of  the  quality, 
how  did  you  construe  the  contract  as  giving  you  authority  to  receive  an 
inferior  quality  of  pork  ? 

A.  I  did  not  consider  the  quality  inferior.     The  grade  was  different. 

Q.  I  mean,  did  your  own  knowledge  that  he  could  not  furnish  that 
pork  at  $21  a  barrel  control  your  judgment  of  the  matter  ? 

A.  Well,  I  presume,  sir,  in  connection  with  the  information  I  received 
that  they  were  not  required  to  furnish  mess  pork  from  the  other  locali 
ties,  that  had  something  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Will  you  say  at  the  time  you  inspected  the  six  hundred  barrels 
you  had  no  knowledge  of  the  terms  of  the  advertisement  as  well  as  the 
terms  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  cannot  say  that.  I  have  already  said  differently.  I  think 
I  had  knowledge  of  the  advertisement  and  also  of  the  contract. 

Q.  And  you  did  know,  did  you  not,  that  there  was  a  difference  in  the 
terms  of  the  two  instruments  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Slavens  claim  that,  because  the  contract  did  not  hold  him 
up  to  the  terms  of  the  advertisement,  therefore  he  was  at  liberty  to 
put  in  a  different  grade  ? 

A.  He  contended  that  the  contract  was  all  I  had  to  go  by. 

Q.  Then  there  was  some  discussion  as  to  whether  you  should  hold  him 
to  the  terms  of  the  advertisement  or  the  terms  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  said  if  the  contract  was  not  to  be  my  guide,  then 
I  had  no  guide;  that  there  would  have  been  no  occasion  for  sending  it  to 
me. 

Q.  Did  you  say  to  him  that,  inasmuch  as  he  had  made  a  proposal  to 
fill  the  contract  which  the  Government  had  advertised  for  in  terms,  he 
he  was  bound  to  fulfill  it  according  to  the  proposal  and  not  according  to 
the  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  claim  that  if  he  had  made  a  proposal  in  answer  to  an 
advertisement  which  calls  for  mess  pork,  and  that  proposal  was  accepted, 
that  therefore  he  was  bound  to  furnish  mess  pork,  no  matter  what  the 
contract  stated  ? 

A.  I  think  I  used  that  argument  with  him,  but,  in  reply,  he  called  my 
attention  to  the  advertisement  inviting  proposals  for  flour,  and  also,  in 
connection  therewith,  to  the  character  of  flour  the  Government  received, 
a  sample  of  which  had  been  furnished  to  me  by  the  Department,  and 


589     . 

which,  he  reminded  me,  I  knew  was  not  XX  flour,  arid,  of  course 
I  said  I  knew  it.  In  reply,  he  said  they  had  accepted  a  contract  with 
him  for  a  different  grade  of  flour  from  what  the  Department  called  for, 
the  sample  of  which  I  had  in  my  possession,  and  knew  to  be  different, 
and  I  did  not  know  but  that  they  might  have  done  the  same  with  him 
in  regard  to  pork.  I  also  call  your  attention  in  this  connection  to  the 
following  letter,  dated  September  5,  1874.  This  letter  does  not  refer  to 
the  advertisement,  but  simply  to  the  contract;  and  taking  all  these 
things  together,  I  thought  that  he  might  be  right  about  it : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  5,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  this  day  forwarded  to  your  address  a  sample  of  the  flour  under  which  the  con 
tract  of  this  office  with  J.  W.  L.  Slavens  was  awarded,  and  have  to  call  your  attention  to  in 
structions  heretofore  given  you  as  to  your  duties  regarding  the  inspection  of  the  same. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM, 
Acting  Commissioner. 
E.  R.  THRELKELD,  Esq., 

Inspector  Indian  Supplies,  Kansas  City,  Mo. 

Q.  In  the  case  of  flour  you  had  a  sample  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  case  of  pork  you  had  no  sample! 

A.  No,  sir j  simply  had  a  contract  by  which"  they  agreed  to  furnish 
so  many  barrels  of  pork.  The  instructions  referred  to  in  the  above 
letter  are  as  follows  : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  1,  1874. 

SIR  :  The  supplies  that  will  come  under  your  inspection  duribg  the  year  are  to  be  delivered 
at  Kansas  City  and  Saint  Louis,  and  will  consist  principally  of  flour,  bacon,  lard,  arid  soap. 
Samples  of  flour  and  soap  will  be  furnished. 

All  goods  should  be  plainly  marked  "Indian  Department,"  and  each  package,  sack,  or 
barrel  must  bear  your  mark  of  inspection.  You  will  provide  yourself  with  tbe  necessary  im 
plements  for  such  branding  or  stenciling. 

Certificates,  as  per  accompanying  blanks,  filled  by  the  inspector,  should  be  delivered  to  the 
parties  entitled  to  receive  the  same,  and  a  duplicate  forwarded  to  this  Office. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
E.  R.  THRELKELD,  Esq., 

Kansas  City,  Missouri. 

Q.  While  you  may  excuse  yourself  or  be  perfectly  justified — and,  of 
course,  were  justified — in  passing  flour  that  was  up  to  the  sample  fur 
nished,  how  can  you  justify  yourself  in  passing  pork  which  was  not  of 
the  best  grade,  when  the  description  was  simply  pork  ? 

A.  Because  I  did  not  presume  it  was  my  prerogative  to  dictate  what 
kind  of  pork  should  be  accepted,  provided  it  was  sweet  and  sound. 

Q.  How  many  kinds  of  pork  are  there  recognized  in  the  market  ? 

A.  Well,  there  are  about  five  different  grades  :  First,  clear  mess;  sec 
ond,  mess ;  third,  prime  mess ;  fourth,  mess  ordinary ;  then  there  is 
prime  pork  that  is  still  lower  than  mess  ordinary. 

Q.  Are  the  grades  marked  on  all  the  pork  ? 

A.  They  are  usually  marked  by  the  packer. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  what  this  pork  was  marked  I 

A.  It  was  marked  just  what  it  was — prime  iness. 

Q.  It  was  not  marked  prime  ? 

A.  No,  sir.    I  think  it  was  marked  prime  mess-pork. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  sufficiently  well  to  say  ? 


590 

A.  No,  I  could  not  say  positively,  but  that  is  my  recollection. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  difference  in  the  value  of  those  different  kinds 
— what  would  prime  be  worth  ? 

A.  From  the  highest  to  the  lowest,  probably  a  difference  of  $10  a  bar 
rel.  The  difference  between  the  first  three  is  not  so  very  much. 

Q.  What  would  constitute  prime  pork"? 

A.  Pork  under  size,  I  suppose,  and  probably  lean  and  almost  all 
shoulder. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  passed  any  of  that  grade  called 
prime  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  did. 

Q.  Why  would  not  that  answer  the  advertisement  just  as  well  as  the 
prime  mess,  if  it  was  sweet  and  sound  pork  '! 

A.  It  would,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  willing  to  say  you  did  not  pass  the  lowest  grade  of  pork 
on  that  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  think  it  was  the  lowest  grade  of  pork ;  but  I 
think  I  would  be  justified  in  passing  the  lowest  grade  of  pork  if  it  was 
sweet  and  sound. 

Q.  In  pork  called  prime,  would  there  be  a  great  deal  of  lean  with 
little  fat  ? 

A.  Of  course,  it  would  contain  less  lard ;  less  grease  than  the  mess 
pork. 

Q.  What  agencies  did  the  flour  go  to  which  you  inspected  under 
Slavens'  contract? 

A.  Washita,  Fort  Sill,  and  Cheyenne  and  Arapahoe  agencies. 

Q.  None  went  to  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  the  contract  shows  for  itself. 

Q.  You  speak  of  it  as  flour  under  the  grade  of  XX  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  flour  was  made  to  comply  with  the  sample  which  was  furnished 
you  from  the  Department  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  how  that  flour  was  made — what  it  was 
made  of ! 

A.  Some  of  it  was  made  in  the  city,  and  a  large  portion  of  it  was 
made  at  Independence,  in  this  county,  at  a  mill  that  had  the  best  repu- 
tion  of  any  flour  that  came  into  this  market. 

Q.  How  do  they  manufacture  the  flour ;  what  material  would  they 
use  to  manufacture  a  flour  of  less  grade  than  XX  ? 

A.  They  would  use  middlings  of  the  better  class  of  wheat,  and  mix 
it  with  a  poorer  class  of  wheat  and  have  it  re-ground. 

Q.  Was  it  pretty  poor  stuff,  or  pretty  good  quality  f 

A.  No,  sir ;  the  flour  that  Mr.  Slaveus  delivered,  all  of  it  except  one 
car-load,  was  better  than  the  sample  furnished  me. 

Q.  Is  the  result  of  such  mixing  of  the  middlings  of  superior  wheat 
and  poor  wheat  to  darken  the  flour — is  that  the  ordinary  result  ? 

A.  It  does  not  bake  so  white ;  there  is  not  so  much  difference  in  the 
quality  of  the  bread,  in  the  whiteness  of  the  flour,  as  in  the  strength  of 
the  flour.  Bakers  cannot  make  as  large  a  loaf  of  it ;  it  does  not  rise  as 
well ;  it  will  make  good  bread,  but  they  cannot  sponge  it  up  as  they  can 
the  stronger  grades  of  flour. 

Q.  I  suppose  the  fiuer  flour  is  made  of  winter-wheat  ? 

A.  We  raise  nothing  but  winter-wheat  here.  The  mixing  of  these 
makes  the  grade  of  flour  known  as  superfine,  and  that  is  like  the  sample 
furnished  by  the  Department. 


591 

Q.  How  inaiiy  grades  of  flour  are  there  ? 

A.  There  are  what  are  termed  XX,  X,  superfine,  and  fine.  I  be 
lieve  in  Saint  Louis  they  have  five  grades.  I  believe  they  have  XX, 
X,  fancy  superfine,  superfine,  and  fine.  In  the  inspection  of  flour  the 
year  before  in  Saint  Louis,  I  called  to  my  aid  Mr.  Benson. 

Q.  You  would  say  of  all  that  flour  it  was  sweet,  sound  flour  ? 

A.  It  is  the  best  lot  of  flour,  taking  it  as  a  whole,  that  I  ever  saw 
made  to  the  Indian  country.  It  was,  I  should  say  from  an  experience 
of  twenty-seven  years  of  handling  Indian  supplies,  better  than  the  con 
tract  called  for. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Have  you  stated  at  any  time  during  the  course  of  conversation 
when  this  inspection  of  pork  took  place  ? 

A.  My  impression  is  that  it  was  about  the  latter  part  of  September, 
1874. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  pork  inspected  by  you  in  September, 
1874,  was  forwarded  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  could  not  say  that.  I  took  a  receipt  from  the  railroad 
company,  and  instructed  the  flour  to  be  forwarded.  It  was  turned  over 
to  the  Kansas  Pacific  Eailroad  Company.  It  was  sent  from  here  to  Chey 
enne,  I  think  ;  that  is  my  impression.  My  certificate  on  file  in  the  De 
partment  will  show  that  the  pork  was  delivered  here  to  the  Kansas 
Pacific  Eailroad. 

Q.  Are  you  satisfied  that  in  the  pork  inspected  by  you  that  fall  there 
were  none  of  what  are  called  neck-pieces  ? 

A.  There  were  none  in  the  pieces  I  inspected  myself. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Had  you  any  interest,  direct  or  indirect,  in  either  the  contract  for 
flour  or  that  for  pork  in  1874? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  no  interest  in  any  contract,  and  have  not  had  since 
the  war. 

Q.  Have  you  received  any  compensation  for  any  participation  in  any 
contracts  with  Mr.  Slavens  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  selected  as  inspector  by  whom  ? 

A.  My  first  appointment  was  a  telegram  from  Mr.  Smith  to  inspect 
300,000  pounds  of  bacon  at  Plaukinton  &  Armor's  pork-house  in  this 
city.  I  didn't  know  any  such  man  as  Commissioner  Smith  at  that  time. 
That  was  in  the  year  1873,  and  he  afterward  informed  me  by  letter  of 
the  same  date  that  I  had  been  selected  inspector  of  Indian  supplies  by 
Colonel  Eobert  Campbell,  of  Saint  Louis,  one  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners.  During  the  year  1873,  when  I  inspected  flour,  I  was  not  re 
quired  to  brand  it  or  stamp  it,  but  took  a  receipt  for  it  from  the  trans 
portation  company.  Complaints  were  made  at  the  agencies  of  musty 
and  wormy  flour,  in  consequence  of  which  I  wrote  to  Colonel  Campbell  to 
Saint  Louis,  suggesting  that  the  opportunities  for  substituting  flour  were 
so  great  that  I  thought  a  new  system  should  be  adopted,  and  suggested 
branding  or  some  better  mode  of  identifying  the  flour  after  inspection, 
and  the  system  of  branding  was  adopted  in  1874.  All  the  flour  I  in 
spected  in  1873  I  branded  with  my  own  name  as  inspector,  and  also  the 
date  of  inspection.  There  was  no  difficulty  in  putting  in  bad  flour  be 
fore  that  time,  if  the  contractor  saw  fit.  It  could  be  done  without  any 
difficulty,  if  a  man  wanted  to  do  so. 

Q.  Is  there  a  grade  of  flour  sold  generally  in  the  market  made  from 
the  middlings  of  good  wheat  and  a  low  grade  of  wheat  ground  together? 


592 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  largest  proportion  of  flour  sold  around  the  country 
is  made  in  that  way. 

The  following  are  the  communications  referred  to  at  the  beginning  of 
Mr.  Threlkeld's  examination  : 

Inspector  Threlkeld  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

KANSAS  CITY,  Mo., 

November  25,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Your  telegram  24th  received  and  I  replied  to-day  by  wire ;  had  inspected 
800  barrels,  200  of  which  was  mess  and  600  prime  mess. 

Mr.  Slavens's  contract  specifies  pork — no  grade  named,  and  I  at  first  declined  to  pass 
the  600  barrels,  but  he  contended  mess  pork  was  not  contemplated  in  his  contract,  and 
I  did  not  consider  I  could  very  well  refuse  to  pass  it  under  the  copy  of  contract  fur 
nished  me,  and  accordingly  done  so.     He  has  200  barrels  now  ready  for  delivery  of 
prime  mess,  and  I  have  to-day  notified  him  I  would  not  accept  any  grade  below  mess. 
All  my  certificates  have  been  issued  in  duplicate  only. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  K.  THRELKELD, 

Inspector. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs, 

City,  7).  C. 


Inspector  Threlkeld  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

KANSAS  CITY,  Mo., 

November  27,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Yours  of  23d  received  and  contents  duly  noted.  In  reply  I  would  state 
that  in  my  letter  of  the  25th  I  reported  the  number  of  barrels  of  pork  received  from 
Slavens  to  be  800  barrels,  200  barrels  mess  and  600  barrels  prime  mess.  I  notice  your 
remarks  in  reference  to  the  advertisement  under  date  May  28,  1874,  and  find  that  mess 
pork  was  the  grade  for  which  bids  were  invited,  and  I  also  see  in  the  same  advertise 
ments,  double  extra  flour  was  the  grade  for  which  bids  were  invited,  but  by  reference 
to  the  sample  accepted  by  the  Department  I  find  the  grade  scarcely  superfine.  I 
would  further  state  that  the  copy  of  contract  with  Mr.  Slavens  says  pork,  not  mess 
pork.  I  refer  to  these  matters  to  more  fully  show  that  I  had  no  positive  information 
by  which  to  be  guided  as  to  the  grade  of  the  pork.  Mr.  S.,  when  I  objected  to 
passing  the  prime  mess  pork,  assured  me  positively  that  that  was  the  grade  contem 
plated  by  him  in  his  bid,  and  as  Mr.  Slavens  is  considered  here  as  a  very  honorable 
business  man,  I  could  not,  with  the  copy  of  contract  before  me,  do  otherwise  than 
accept  good,  sound,  sweet  pork,  without  reference  to  the  grade.  I  have  refused  to  pass 
200  barrels  prime  mess  offered  on  the  25th  by  Mr.  S.,  and  he  has  promised  to  complete 
his  contract  with  the  grade  you  demand,  mess  pork. 

Trusting  my  action  in  the  premises  may  be  found  satisfactory, 
I  am,  sir,  vour  obedient  servant, 

E.  K.  THRELKELD, 

Inspector. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Cmomisttioner  Indian  Affairs, 

Washington,  I).  C. 


TESTIMONY  OF  J.  W.  L.  SLAVENS. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question. iWhere  do  you  reside,  Mr.  Slavens  ! 
Answer.  Kansas  City,  Mo. 
Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  here? 


593 

A.  Ten  years. 

Q.  What  other  contract  for  Indian  supplies  did  you  have  last  year 
besides  the  contract  for  pork  ? 

A.  One  for  flour.  It  was  all  in  the  same  contract  j  but  the  items 
were  pork  and  flour. 

Q.  What  contract,  if  any,  did  you  have  for  Indian  supplies  the  year 
before  last  ? 

A.  Well,  I  had  one  for  furnishing  beef  to  two  agencies  on  the  Missouri 
River — to  the  agency  at  Standing  Rock  and  that  at  Crow  Creek,  I 
believe.  Those  were  the  two. 

Q.  What  contracts,  if  any,  did  you  have  the  year  before  that  ?  Do  you 
recollect  ? 

A.  None  in  my  own  name  with  the  Indian  Department.  I  had  some 
with  the  Army. 

Q.  What  contracts  have  you  this  year  ? 

A.  For  supplying  bacon  to  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and 
to  the  agencies  in  the  Indian  Territory;  and  I  did  have  this  spring  a 
three  months'  contract  for  supplying  beef  to  those  agencies  in  the  Indian 
Territory. 

Q.  Where  did  you  procure  the  flour  that  was  furnished  by  you  last 
year? 

A.  I  bought  it  through  commission  men.  I  don't  know  myself  where 
it  came  from;  I  made  no  inquiries ;  I  never  saw  it.  I  don't  think  I 
ever  examined  a  sack  of  it.  I  made  my  contracts  with  commission 
men,  subject  to  the  inspection  of  the  Indian  inspector,  and  when  they 
brought  me  his  certificate  I  paid  for  the  flour,  and  not  until  then,  in  any 
instance.  My  contract  was  for  delivery  here;  and  beside  the  inspection- 
certificate,  the  party  furnishing  the  flour  brought  me  also  the  railroad 
receipt  for  shipment  by  the  contractor  of  transportation.  They  were 
the  vouchers  upon  which  I  got  my  pay,  and  upon  which  I  paid  for  the 
flour. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS: 

Q.  Where  did  you  obtain  the  first  two  hundred  barrels  of  pork  you 
shipped  under  the  contract  of  18741 

A.  I  think  in  Saint  Louis. 
t  Q.  What  grade  of  pork  was  that  ? 

A.  Mess-pork. 

Q.  And  was  worth  here  how  much  per  barrel  ? 

A.  Well,  to  one  that  had  to  have  it  here,  it  was  worth  $24  a  barrel, 
and  the  freight  from  Saint  Louis  here. 

Q.  Did  you  buy  it  at  that  price? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  bought  part  of  it  here,  but  the  most  of  it — two  car 
loads — were  bought  in  Saint  Louis ;  about  one  hundred  and  twenty  or 
one  hundred  and  thirty  barrels. 

Q.  You  did  not  pack  any  of  that  pork  yourself  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  in  fact,  we  packed  none  of  it  ourselves  except  the  last  two 
hundred  barrels. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  other — that  is,  the  six  hundred  barrels  1 

A.  Mostty  in  Chicago;  we  delivered  it  in  several  deliveries. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Of  whom  did  you  buy  the  one  hundred  and  thirty-odd  barrels  in 
Saint  Louis  7 

A.  From  Dutcbcr  &  Co.,  commission  brokers. 
Q.  And  from  whom  did  you  buy  it  in  Chicago  ? 

38  I  F 


594 

A.  I  am  not  certain  what  firm  we  bought  it  tli rough.  It  was  either 
through  Holden  &  Co.  or  Gilbert  Prior  &  Co. ;  we  had  business  with  both 
of  them.  We  may  have  bought  a  portion  of  these  six  hundred  barrels 
here  from  Plankinton  and  Armor. 

Q.  I  understand  that  you  did  not  deliver  any  more  until  you  began 
packing  pork  here  yourselves? 

A.  The  last  two  hundred  barrels  were  of  pork  we  packed  ourselves. 

Q.  The  pork  that  you  bought  in  Chicago,  was  that  delivered  here  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  all  delivered  here. 

Q.  Your  contract  was  to  deliver  it  at  Omaha  ? 

A.  Y^es,  sir  ;  or  Kansas  City.  In  the  first  place,  I  had  that  changed  by 
that  correspondence  to  make  Kansas  City  the  point.  The  freight  from 
Chicago  to  Kansas  City  was  cheaper  than  to  Omaha.  All  the  Indian  goods 
are  going  that  way  this  year — Chicago,  Kansas  City,  Denver  to  Chey 
enne. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  that  pork  yourself  that  you  bought  at 
Chicago? 

A.  Y^es,  sir ;  I  saw  one  or  two  lots.  I  was  not  there  all  the  time.  I 
saw  one  or  two  lots  when  Mr.  Threlkeld  was  inspecting  them.  I  saw 
only  that  lot  of  six  hundred  barrels  while  he  was  inspecting  them. 

Q.  About  how  many  barrels  were  in  the  old  lot '? 

A.  Two  hundred,  1  think. 

Q.  What  was  the  grade  of  that  pork  ? 

A.  It  was  prime  mess  pork. 

Q.  Was  it  a  good  quality  of  that  grade  of  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  what  I  saw  of  it  was.  Commissioner  Smith  informed 
me  that  I  ought  to  have  furnished  all  mess  pork,  as  the  advertisement 
said  mess-pork ;  and  I  then  voluntarily  offered  to  make  good  the  differ 
ence  in  the  commercial  value  between  prime  mess  and  mess  pork ;  and 
I  made  that  good  in  bacon,  as  the  correspondence  will  show. 

Q.  The  bacon  you  made  that  good  in  was  at  the  market-price  of 
bacon  at  the  time,  was  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Had  you  any  other  contract  for  pork  that  year  ? 

A.  None,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  your  adjustment  of  that  matter 
was  the  result  of  your  own  voluntary  proposition  and  not  any  proposi 
tion  coming  from  the  Indian  Department  ? 

A.  There  was  no  suggestion  as  to  any  manner.  I  made  a  reply  in 
full  to  his  statement.  He  said  there  were  complaints,  and  that  I  had 
brought  discredit  or  trouble  upon  the  Department  by  delivering  a  grade 
of  pork  that  was  not  so  good  as  it  should  be ;  that  it  was  not  the  kind 
he  intended  should  be  furnished,  referring  to  the  advertisement;  and  I 
answered  that  and  stated  what  I  had  done  and  the  reason  I  had  done 
it,  and  my  views  about  the  whole  thing ;  and  I  wound  up  by  saying, 
however,  if  he  thought  it  was  just  and  proper,  I  would  make  this  propo 
sition  :  that  I  would  make  good  the  difference  between  the  commercial 
value  of  the  pork  required  and  that  which  I  furnished. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  will  ask  your  attention  to  this  letter  of  yours  to  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  the  llth  of  January,  1875,  which 
I  will  read : 

KANSAS  CITY,  Mo.,  January  11, 1875. 

SIR  :  Referring  to  your  verbal  statement  to  me  that  a  portion  of  my  delivery  of  pork, 
under  my  contract  of  July  11,  1874,  failed  to  give  satisfaction,  being  a  grade  you  did 


595 

not  contemplate  receiving  under  said  contract,  viz,  prime  mess,  instead  of  mess  pork, 
I  have  the  honor  to  submit  the  following  statement  : 

The  pork  in  question  was  bought  subject  to  the  inspection  of  the  Government  in 
spector,  under  my  contract,  a  copy  of  which  he  held.  I  was  not  personally  present  at 
the  time  the  first  lot  of  this  pork  was  delivered,  and  never  saw  a  barrel  of  it.  It  was 
bought  and  delivered  by  the  business-firm  of  which  I  am  a  member,  during  my  absence, 
to  meet  a  sudden  and  peremptory  and  threatening  demand,  coming  to  me  by  letter 
and  dispatch  from  the  store-keeper  of  Red  Cloud  agency,  demanding,  in  the  name  of 
the  agent,  immediate  shipment  of  this  pork,  on  the  penalty  of  its  purchase  on  the 
market  for  my  account.  This  pork  being  the  only  pork  in  reach  of  me,  or  with  which 
an  immediate  shipment  could  possibly  be  made,  it  was  at  once  bargained  for,  subject 
to  inspection,  as  before  mentioned.  I  mention  the  fact  of  this  unexpected  and  threat 
ening  demand  for  an  immediate  shipment,  within  one  mouth  of  a  prior  delivery  of  200 
barrels,  because  of  the  understanding  had  at  the  time  of  the  acceptance  of  this  con 
tract,  the  award  having  been  made  one  week  after  the  letting,  and  the  advance  in 
pork  in  the  mean  time  having  rendered  it  impossible  to  furnish  pork  out  of  the  old  lot 
without  loss,  that  I  would  only  be  held  to  deliver  in.  lots,  from  time  to  time,  to  meet 
the  requirements  of  the  agency  for  current  issues. 

I  had  not,  previous  to  this  delivery,  examined  a  copy  of  my  contract,  but  was  under 
the  impression  that  mess  pork  was  the  grade  required,  and  only  learned  from  the  Gov 
ernment  inspector,  after  this  delivery  was  made,  that  the  contract  did  not  require  mess 
pork,  but  that  prime,  if  of  full  weight  and  sweet,  would  answer. 

And  remembering  also  that  the  Army,  during  the  war,  at  all  times  preferred  prime 
mess  to  mess  pork,  I  was  led  to  the  conclusion,  from  the  wording  of  the  contract,  that 
either  grade  was  acceptable,  and  that  it  was  immaterial  which,  provided  the  special 
instructions  of  the  Government  inspector  were  satisfied. 

Having  acted  in  good  faith  in  the  matter,  I  submit  that  I  should  not  be  held  respon 
sible  for  the  full  difference  in  value  of  the  two  articles,  but  will  cheerfully  do  in  the 
premises  whatever  in  your  judgment  is  in  equity  right.  The  difference  in  the  commer 
cial  value  ranges  from  one  to  two  dollars,  though  at  times  prime  mess  has  sold  for  more 
money.  The  difference  in  actual  cost  this  season  is  about  one  dollar  and  a  half  per  bar 
rel,  which  is  about  present  difference  in  commercial  value.  Although  having  paid  for 
the  pork  delivered  under  this  contract  more  than  the  Government  pays  me,  I  offer  to 
deliver  a  further  amount  of  either  mess  pork  or  bacon  sides  to  cover  the  difference  in 
the  commercial  value  of  mess  and  prime  mess  pork  for  the  number  of  barrels  of  latter 
delivered.  We  have  the  property  now  on  hand,  and  can  deliver  on  any  day. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully, 

J.  W.  L.  SLAVENS. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Does  that  letter  contain  a  correct  statement  of  the  matter  and  of  the 
proposition  f 

A.  I  say  in  the  letter  that  I  did  witness  the  first  delivery ;  I  state  in 
my  examination  that  I  witnessed  one  of  the  deliveries,  and  that  it  was 
one  of  them;  I  am  not  sure  which  one  it  is.  With  that  exception,  this 
letter  contains  a  correct  statement  of  the  matter — with  the  exception  that 
I  may  have  witnessed  the  inspection  of  the  first  or  second  delivery  of  the 
600  barrels.  In  explanation  of  that  reference  to  the  fact  that  I  was  to 
have  all  the  time  daring  the  year  to  make  the  delivery  that  the  neces 
sities  of  the  agency  would  allow,  I  will  say  the  contract  said  nothing  about 
that ;  it  was  a  verbal  understanding  had  with  the  Commissioner  at 
the  time  I  accepted  the  award,  about  eight  days  after  the  letting. 
The  price  of  pork  had  advanced  in  the  mean  time,  so  that  I  could 
not  possibly  buy  it  at  the  price  for  which  I  offered  to  furnish  it, 
although  I  had  a  margin  at  the  date  of  the  letting;  and  I  said  to 
the  Commissioner  that  I  could  not  furnish  it  at  that  price,  and  that 
I  would  not  accept  the  award  if  I  should  be  held  to  furnish  it  all 
immediately  out  of  old  pork;  that  if  I  was  only  required  to  furnish 
it  from  mouth  to  month,  as  the  agency  needed  it,  through  the  year,  then 
I  could  get  even  on  the  new  crop  of  pork,  which,  as  a  rule,  the  United 
States  over,  is  five  or  six  dollars  lower  per  barrel  than  pork  is  before  the 
new  crop  comes  into  the  market.  He  said  that  would  be  all  that  would 
be  required — to  furnish  it  as  fast  as  the  agency  needed  it,  and  with  that 


596 

understanding  I  accepted  the  award,  and  I  delivered  200  barrels  as  soon 
as  they  were  called  for.  The  letting  was  in  New  York  City,  July  2.  Bids 
were  opened  at  noon  on  a  certain  day.  I  telegraphed  to  Holden  &  Co., 
of  Chicago,  and  got  the  price  of  pork  on  that  day  and  made  a  bid,  reserv 
ing  myself  a  margin,  and  the  next  day,  and  the  next  and  every  day  on 
until  the  award,  1  was  wanting  to  know  whether  I  should  furnish  it  or 
not;  and  there  was  no  decision  made  in  regard  to  who  should  have  the 
contract  until,  in  Washington  City  some  eight  days  afterward,  I  was 
notified  that  I  could  furnish  the  pork;  and  then  occurred  this  con 
versation  with  the  Commissioner. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Were  those  600  barrels  of  pork  sent  to  Red  Cloud  agency  J? 

A.  I  have  no  knowledge,  but  that  was  my  understanding.  I  deliv 
ered  it  to  the  Kansas  Pacific  Railroad  Company.  It  was  billed  to  the 
store-keeper  at  Cheyenne. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  understood,  when  you  made  the  contract,  that  you  were  bid 
ding  for  mess  pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  not  until  you  knew  that  your  contract  stated  pork  that  you 
ventured  to  substitute  prime  mess-pork? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  possibly,  if  I  could  have  got  hold  of  mess-pork  as 
easily,  I  should  have  furnished  it,  and  not  the  prime  mess,  although 
there  was  a  difference  in  price.  I  did  not  have  any  copy  of  the  con 
tract  furnished  me,  and  I  bought  mess  pork,  for  I  knew  that  was  what 
I  bid  to  furnish ;  but  I  happened  to  see  Mr.  Threlkeld's  copy  of  the 
contract,  and  discovered  that  it  did  not  call  for  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Did  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  tell  you  that  it  was  a  cler 
ical  error  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  This  correspondence  occurred  after  the  pork  was  deliv 
ered. 

Q.  Where  did  this  idea  of  a  clerical  error  come  from  ? 

A.  Mr.  Harris  says  it  came  in  a  letter  from  Commissioner  Smith  to 
Mr.  Threlkeld. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  There  is  a  low  grade,  called  prime  pork,  made  up  of  thin  and  small 
pork  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  prime  mess  is  made  up  of  lighter  pork  cut  from 
lighter  hogs  than  mess  pork. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  portion  of  this  pork  which  was  pur 
chased  by  you  to  make  up  the  600  barrels  was  of  the  quality  known  as 
prime  ? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  think  it  was  all  prime  mess. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  now  whether  you  did  ship  any  prime  ? 

A.  lam  pretty  certain  that  it  was  all  prime  mess. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  now  what  you  paid  for  any  portion  of  those  600  bar 
rels  ? 

A.  No,  sir.     I  do  not  remember.     I  think  about  $19  a  barrel. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  paid  for  all  of  it  the  same  price  ? 

A.  Very  likely  not ;  the  market  is  changing. 

Q.  Have  you  in  vour  possession  book  or  means  of  telling  what  you 
paid  for  all  the  pork  ? 


597 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  not  with  me.    I  have  it  in  the  office. 

Q.  Gould  you,  without  any  great  inconvenience,  write  a  note  to  the 
chairman  of  the  committee,  in  Saint  Louis,  within  a  few  days,  and  give 
an  answer  to  the  question  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose,  in  truth,  you  put  in  under  that  contract  any  pork  that 
would  pass  inspection  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir;  that  Avas  the  test  with  me — inspection — in  all  contracts. 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  persons  you  bought  pork  of? 

A.  I  have  given  you  the  names  of  the  brokers  through  whom  I  got  all 
the  pork — I  did  not  pack  myself;  it  was  bought  through  brokers. 

Q.  Of  course  you  purchased  all  that  pork  through  brokers,  subject 
to  the  condition  that  it  should  pass  inspection  ? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know,  either,  whether  that  was  in  or  not.  It  was 
probably  inspected  where  it  came  irom — Chicago — and  that  was  the 
rule  I  adopted  in  making  all  purchases,  I  presume,  but  I  don't  re 
member. 

Q.  So  that  if  you  followed  your  usual  rule,  you  left  it  to  the  parties 
of  whom  you  purchased — left  it  within  their  power  to  furnish  as  low  a 
grade  of  pork  as  they  could  get  to  pass  inspection  J? 

A.  No ;  not  in  that  way.  They  did  not  know  what  the  pork  was 
for,  or  anything  about  it,  only  that  it  was  to  be  sweet  and  full  weight. 
The  standard  of  the  Chicago  National  Board  of  Trade  now  is  190 
pounds  to  the  barrel,  and  the  Government  requires  200  pounds.  I 
specified  that  it  should  be  200-pound  pork,  although  I  made  a  claim 
on  the  Department  for  the  difference. 

Q.  All  you  specified  to  your  brokers  was  that  it  should  be  200  pounds 
of  a  certain  grade  known  as  prime  mess — 200  pounds  instead  of  190  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Beyond  that,  was  there  any  condition  that  you  should  receive  any 
pork  that  should  pass  inspection  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Was  the  pork  inspected  in  Chicago  before  it  came  here  ? 

A.  It  seems  all  pork  sold  there  passes  through  inspection.  I  don't 
know  how,  but  probably  by  the  Board  of  Trade.  I  claim  that  I  should 
get  pay  for  so  many  thousand  pounds  of  pork  at  the  rate  of  $21  a  bar 
rel,  and  190  pounds  in  a  barrel,  but  the  Department  wanted  to  hold 
me  for  200  pounds  to  the  barrel.  In  making  my  bid,  I  understood  the 
Government  would  go  by  the  rules  of  the  trade. 

Q.  Has  the  Government  followed  that  rule  heretofore — 200  pounds? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  so  did  the  trade  of  the  United  States  all  over  until 
the  convention  was  held  in  Louisville,  Ky.,  last  September,  a  year  ago, 
at  the  National  Pork-packers'  Convention,  they  adopted  the  Chicago 
standard. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  suppose  that  is  adopted  upon  the  theory  that  190  pounds  will- 
make  200  when  salted  ? 

A.  Partly.  It  is  also  because  pork  cures  better  in  190-pound  lots — that 
amount  is  enough  to  put  in  a  barrel.  I  made  no  other  contract  for 
pork  except  that  one  for  1,000  barrels.  Mr.  Threlkeld  inspected  it  all, 
and  there  was  no  pork  went  off  that  was  not  inspected.  A  barrel  of 
pork  will  weigh  on  an  average  330  pounds ;  that  is,  200  pounds  of 
pork.  The  rest  is  brine  and  barrel.  The  barrel  will  weiei'li  about  55 


598 

pounds.  In  transporting  it,  it  wants  to  be  cared  for  all  the  time,  some 
times  to  be  recoopered.  When  we  store  pork  we  drive  the  hoops  three 
or  four  times  during  the  year. 

Mr.  THRELKELD.  I  understood  Mr.  Slavens  to  say  in  conversation 
that  he  had  an  understanding  with  the  Commissioner  to  the  effect  that 
he  would  not  be  too  hard  on  him  with  regard  to  the  grade  of  pork  to 
be  delivered,  so  that  it  should  be  sound,  sweet  pork. 

Mr.  SLAVENS.  I  never  had  any  conversation  with  the  Commissioner 
in  regard  to  the  quality  of  the  pork.  Mess  pork  was  understood ;  but  in 
regard  to  the  times  of  delivery,  1  had  an  express  understanding  with 
him. 


TESTIMONY  OF  PRESLEY  G.  WILHITE. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Were  you  engaged  in  the  milling  business  last  year  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir;  have  been  for  twenty  years. 

Q.  Where? 

A.  I  was  at  Lee  Summit,  Jackson  County,  Missouri. 

Q.  Did  you  furnish,  last  year,  Mr.  J.  H.  Martin  some  flour  that  was 
shipped  to  Cheyenne? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  how  much? 

A.  I  think  I  furnished  him,  as  near  as  J  can  well  recollect,  about 
twenty-three  or  twenty-four  hundred  sacks. 

Q.  How  large  were  the  sacks? 

A.  One  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Was  it  put  up  in  double  sacks  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  all  of  it  in  double  sacks. 

Q.  What  kind  of  flour  was  that  ? 

A.  It  was  what  is  known  here  as  XX  flour. 

Q.  How  was  that  flour  made  ? 

A.  It  was  made  from  fall-wheat,  all  of  it,  except  there  might  have 
been  a  very  small  quantity  of  spring-wheat  in  it ;  they  do  not  raise 
much  spring-wheat  in  this  country;  there  might  have  been  a  few 
bushels  of  spring-wheat  raised  in  this  county,  if  any. 

Q.  Did  he  furnish  you  a  sample  ot  the  kind  of  flour  he  wanted  made? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  the  kind  he  wanted  made? 

A.  The  first  I  knew  in  regard  to  the  flour  was  he  wrote  me  that  he 
wanted  me  to  furnish  him  a  good,  sound,  sweet  flour  of  what  is  known 
in  this  country  as  a  low  grade.  Any  article  of  flour  in  this  market 
that  is  not  choice  family  flour  is  termed  low-grade  flour. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  he  wanted  with  it? 

A.  Xo,  sir;  he  said  he  wanted  it  shipped  to  Cheyenne,  arid  instructed 
me  to  brand  the  sacks  "Red  Cloud  agency"  or  <;  Red  Cloud  Sioux,"  I 
do  not  recollect  which.  I  had  furnished  him  flour  the  year  before,  and 
that  is  the  reason  I  do  not  recollect.  One  was  "Red  Cloud  agency" 
and  the  other  was  "  Red  Cloud  Sioux."  Either  year  before  last  or  last 
year ;  it  was  in  774  and  '72. 

Q.  Was  the  article  of  flour  you  made  for  him  of  sound  wheat;  a 
sound  and  healthy  article  of  flour? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  all  sound  and  sweet.  Last  fall,  if  you  remember,, 
was  a  very  dry  year,  and  we  had  no  musty  wheat;  it  was  dry  from 


599 

before  harvest  clear  on  to  February.    It  was  all  sound,  sweet  whe'at, 
that  I  ground  for  him. 

Q.  How  is  the  difference  made  between  first-class  flour  and  this  low- 
grade  flour  out  of  the  same  wheat  ? 

A.  Among  millers  there  is  what  is  termed  a  straight  grade,  and  that 
is  known  as  the  first  flour ;  the  first  and  second  being  bolted  at  the 
same  time. 

Q.  The  second  rate,  then,  is  bolted  closer  than  the  first ;  is  that  what 
makes  the  grade? 

A.  It  makes  it  darker,  from,  the  fact  that  there  are  more  bran-specks 
in  the  middlings. 

Q.  Are  not  these  middlings  ground  over  again  with  other  wheat  to 
make  this  straight-grade  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  to  make  a  lower  grade  of  flour,  how  is  that  done? 

A.  To  grind  the  middlings  by  themselves  makes  a  lower  grade  of 
flour  than  to  grind  them  with  the  wheat. 

Q.  How  was  this  flour  made  that  you  furnished  Mr.  Martin! 

A.  The  middlings  that  came  from  a  bushel  of  wheat  were  ground  at 
the  same  time,  and  went  in  with  the  flour.  In  making  the  Martin  flour 
I  reground  the  middlings  that  came  from  the  wheat  in  with  the  wheat, 
which  made  what  is  called  a  "straight  grade"  of  flour.  If  the  mid 
dlings  had  been  kept  out,  it  would  have  reduced  the  quantity  of  flour 
one-eighth  or  one-ninth.  Although  a  low  grade  of  flour,  it  was  sweet  and 
wholesome,  and  made  of  a  sound  wheat.  It  was  in  this  market  XXX 
flour,  but  it  went  to  the  Government  as  XX  flour. 

Q.  You  have  furnished  flour  to  the  Government  for  the  use  of  the 
military  at  Fort  Leavenworth  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  a  great  deal  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  furnish  any  of  this  same  kind  of  flour  for  the  use  of 
the  military? 

A.  Thousands  and  thousands  of  bags,  to  General  Morgan,  during  the 
last  six  or  eight  years,  and  never  had  a  sack  condemned — never. 

Q.  At  what  price  c]id  you  furnish  this  flour  to  Martin  ? 

A.  I  said  I  furnished  twenty -three  or  twenty-four  hundred  sacks.  I 
mean  I  furnished  thirty -four  or  thirty-five  hundred.  The  first  two  ship 
ments — the  first  twenty-two  or  twenty-three  hundred  bags — I  furnished, 
was  at  $2.35  a  bag,  of  a  hundred  pounds.  The  last  eleven  hundred  and  sev 
enty-five  bags — about  five  car-loads — I  furnished  him  at  $2.25  ;  that  was 
the  price  delivered  here,  at  the  State-line,  on  the  railroad.  I  have  a  great 
many  friends  out  at  Cheyenne;  Mr.  Xagle,  a  wholesale  grocery-man, and 
other  friends  of  mine,  said  I  furnished  too  good  flour ;  that  the  officers 
and  a  great  many  persons  around  there  preferred  it  to  spring-wheat 
flour,  and  they  exchanged  their  flour  lor  mine.  Government  officers 
used  it  in  preference  to  the  spring-wheat  flour  furnished  them  from. 
Omaha.  Mr.  Martin  told  me  so  in  Kansas  City. 

Q.  Mr.  Martin  never  told  you  that  there  was  any  fault  found  with  it, 
or  that  any*  was  rejected  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir,  not  on  account  of  the  quality  of  the  flour,  but  on  ac 
count  of  some  difficulty  he  had  there  with  other  contractors,  influencing 
those  who  had  the  receiving  of  it;  something  of  that  kind;  I  don't  re 
collect  distinctly ;  he  had  some  difficulty,  arid  has  had  frequently  for  the 
last  ten  or  fifteen  years.  He  is  a  very  shrewd,  sharp,  designing  fellow, 
J.  H.Martin  is.  If  he  gets  after  a  man  he  never  lets  up  on  him,  and 
something  of  that  kind  occurred — that  they  were  trying  to  rule  him  out 


600 

or  beat  him,  and  he  told  me  that  some  of  the  flour  was  ruled  out  on  that 
account. 

Q.  He  never  made  any  claim  upon  you  for  any  indemnity  for  furnish 
ing  him  any  bad  flour,  did  he? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Made  no  complaint  to  you  that  the  flour  was  not  good  ! 

A.  No  further  than  about  the  last  payment  he  was  to  make  5  the  pay 
ment  was  delayed;  the  draft  went  to  protest,  and  he  said  it  was  on  ac 
count  of  his  furnishing  the  flour  to  another  party,  and  they  refused  to 
take  it,  and  he  was  delayed  in  the  payment ;  but  it  was  not  on  account 
of  the  flour.  That  was  the  excuse  that  he  gave  me. 

Q.  He  did  not  claim  any  deduction  on  account  of  the  flour  being  bad  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  he  paid  every  draft  right  up,  until,  I  think,  the  last  draft 
that  came  due  ;  he  did  not  pay  it,  and  gave  that  as  his  excuse— that  he 
had  furnished  the  flour  to  another  party,  and  the  whole  thing  was  con 
fiscated  ;  and  he  said  that  he  lost  $1,200  by  the  parties. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  the  inspector  of 'Indian  supplies  at  Cheyenne 
had  rejected  some  of  your  flour  ? 

A.  1  think  he  wrote  something  about  it;  he  wrote  to  me  something 
about  that,  but  he  told  me  it  was  not  on  account  of  the  flour,  but  on 
account  of  this  other  matter.  I  do  not  know  what  it  was  exactly. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  all  of  the  flour  of  the  same  grade  substantially — all  that  you 
furnished  him  ? 

A.  Just  as  near  as  could  be  made. 
Q.  And  all  of  winter  wheat? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  not  suppose  there  was  any  spring-wheat  in  it. 


TESTIMONY  OF  S.  B.  ARMOR. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Question.  Will  you  state  your  residence  and  occupation  ? 
Answer.  My  residence  is  Kansas  City ;  occupation,  beef  and  pork 
packer. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Are  you  accustomed  to  buy  Texas  cattle  for  packing  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  buy — those  through  cattle  ? 

A.  Anything,  fat  or  lean  as  you  might  say  ;  principally  fat  cattle,  but 
we  buy  a  good  many  lean  cattle  and  tank  them.  We  have  done  so 
several  years,  but  that  is  not  an  every -year  business  with  us.  When 
the  hides  will  pay  for  the  bulk  we  sometimes  buy  them  and  tank  them. 
We  get  the  hides  and  tallow,  and  horns.  When  we  can  make  it  pay 
we  do  that. 

Q.  What  large  cattle  do  you  usually  buy  for  beef? 

A.  From  four  to  six  or  eight  years  old. 

Q.  Do  you  buy  oxen  or  steers  ? 

A.  We  principally  buy  what  we  call  steers.  They  are  called  beef- 
steers. 

Q.  And  you  buy  them  the  same  year  that  they  come  here  ? 

A.  Not  always.  We  often  buy  those  cattle  that  have  been  wintered 
over. 


601 

Q.  Is  your  mode  of  buying  cattle  according  to  the  weight  or  the 
head  ? 

A.  Both  ways.  We  have  some  years  bought  pretty  largely  in  the 
spring  and  summer  on  the  plains  and  held  them  until  October. 

Q.  Have  you  any  experience  in  weighing  cattle  on  the  hoof? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  mode  of  weighing! 

A.  Scales. 

Q.  Do  you  weigh  them  right  off  grass  and  water,  or  do  you  lot  them 
before  weighing  ?  You  are  always  buyers,  are  you  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  at  certain  seasons. 

Q.  When  you  buy  by  weight,  do  you  buy  right  off  grass  and  water, 
or  do  you  buy  after  lotting? 

A.  If  we  buy  those  cattle  in  the  country  or  on  the  plains  by  weight 
at  some  railroad  center,  where  we  receive  them,  our  custom  is  to  stand 
those  cattle  off  feed  and  water  for  twelve  or  fourteen  hours  ;  that  is  the 
common  custom  in  this  country. 

Q.  What  would  four-year-old  steers,  through  cattle,  weigh  in  that 
mode  per  head  ? 

A.  That  depends  altogether  upon  their  condition  and  the  time  of  the 
year. 

Q.  Suppose  they  come  through  and  arrive  here  in  June  or  July  in 
fair  condition,  and  are  kept  on  the  ranges  till  September,  October,  or 
November? 

A.  Well,  on  the  plains  it  takes  a  pretty  fair  lot  of  cattle  to  average  a 
thousand  pounds,  cattle  of  four  and  five  years  old  and  upward,  as  a 
herd  of  cattle  would  naturally  run. 

Q.  What,  in  your  judgment,  would  be  a  fair  estimate  of  the  average 
of  such  cattle  ;  I  do  not  mean  the  best  or  the  poorest — I  mean  fair  cattle 
from  Texas  that  have  arrived  in  good  condition  and  been  kept  over  till 
September  or  October? 

A.  Well,  I  should  say  a  thousand  pounds.  It  takes  a  pretty  fair  lot 
of  cattle  to  do.  that,  however.  That  would  be  about  a  fair  estimate. 

Q.  And  that  is  your  mode  of  weighing  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  interest,  of  course,  in  any  of  these  Indian  contracts 
for  the  supply  of  beef? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  them  personally  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Did  you  ever  sell  cattle  on  the  hoof? 

A.  No,  sir.  There  might  be  an  isolated  case.  I  may  occasionally  sell 
a  lot  of  cattle.  These  cattle  would  not  weigh  as  much  here  as  on  the 
plains.  The  same  lot  of  cattle  would  shrink  40  or  50  pounds. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  put  in  a  bid  to  supply  an  Indian  contract  with 
cattle  on  the  hoot? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  make  of  your  slaughtered  cattle  ?  ,. 

A.  Salted  beef  and  pickled  beef,  packed  in  barrels. 
Q.  What  do  you  pay  for  cattle  on  the  hoof,  such  as   I   have  been 
describing,  per  pound  or  per  hundred  pounds? 

A.  That  is  all  governed  by  the  quality  of  the  cattle. 
Q.  Such  cattle  as  you  pack  for  beef? 


602 

A.  We  pay  ordinarily  from  $2.35  to  $2.75  per  100  pounds  gross 
weight.  That  is  on  the  plains  in  the  fall  of  the  year,  in  September. 
That  would  be,  of  course,  according  to  the  quality  of  the  cattle.  Some 
cattle  we  would  not  pay  as  much  for,  but  we  never  buy  any  tanking 
cattle  on  the  plains.  We  aim  to  get  good  cattle.  We  pack  them  in 
barrels. 

Q.  What  is  the  ordinary  value  of  beef  as  you  pack  it  in  barrels  ? 

A.  Oh,  well,  it  depends  upon  the  quality.  There  are  four  or  five  dif 
ferent  qualities  that  we  make  out  of  these  cattle.  Certain  portions  of 
the  cattle  would  make  mess  beef — that  would  be  barreled  beef;  or  ex 
tra  mess  beef — that  would  be  barreled  beef.  Then  we  make  a  grade 
of  prime  mess  beef,  and  India  mess  beef,  that  goes  into  tierces.  A 
tierce  is  304  pounds. 

Q.  What  is  a  200-pound  barrel  of  beef  worth  "I 

A.  If  it  was  mess  beef  about  a  fair  market  value  last  fall  would 
have  been  $7  a  barrel.  Tierce-beef  is  a  better  quality,  and  according 
to  the  market  value  of  beef  last  fall  it  would  be  worth  about  from  $1G 
to  $18  per  tierce. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  a  head  for  cattle  on  the  plains  ?  What  has  been 
the  average  price  for  beef-steers  four  years  old  and  upward  ? 

A.  If  we  buy  in  the  spring  and  hold  through  the  summer,  we  gener 
ally  pay  from  $20  to  $22  per  head.  We  always  aim  to  get  a  large  class 
of  cattle  ;  they  are  better  for  our  business.  That  is  about  the  spring 
price.  In  the  fall  they  will  average  about  $25  per  head. 

Q.  Did  your  firm  furnish  any  pork  to  Slavens  last  year  ? 

A.  We  sold  him  a  car-load. 

Q.  What  was  it  ? 

A.  It  was  mess  pork. 

Q.  At  what  season  of  the  year  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  in  the  month  of  September  ;  1  am  not  positive. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  that  was  the  last  car-load  he  furnished  on 
his  contract  ? 

A.  No,  I  did  not  understand  it  was  the  last;  I  understood  it  was 
about  the  first. 

Q.  How  many  barrels  I 

A.  I  cannot  say  positively  whether  it  was  sixty  or  seventy.  Seventy 
we  generally  consider  a  car-load. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  if  he  purchased  130  barrels  in  Saint  Louis,  and 
then  purchased  70  barrels  of  you  to  make  up  the  200  barrels  ? 

A.  I  do  not  know  anything  about  that. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  and  quality  of  the  pork  ? 

A.  It  was  good.  It  was  our  own  packing.  It  was  mess  pork. 
Standard  mess  pork  calls  for  1C  pieces  to  the  barrel,  if  I  recollect  the 
number  of  pieces,  and  at  this  time  the  standard  of  weight  is  190  pounds. 

Q.  Did  you  furnish  it  at  190  pounds -or  200  ? 

A.  I  furnished  it  at  not  over  196  pounds  of  green  meat ;  but  this 
pork  gains  in  weight.  It  takes  up  pickle  enough  to  weigh  the  200 
pounds. 

Q.  There  are,  as  I  understand  it,  clear  pork,  mess  pork,  prime  mess, 
ordinary  mess,  and  prime. 

A.  Yes,  and  extra  prime. 

Q.  Is  that  a  lower  grade  ? 

A.  I  think  prime  pork  constitutes  simply  the  shoulders,  just  as  they 
are  cut  from  the  hog. 

Q.  Would  you  get  any  portion  of  the  head  in  prime  pork  ? 

A.  That  would  depend  upon  how  clos3  they  cut  to  the  ears. 


603 

Q.  What  is  the  difference  between  mess  pork  and  prime  in  value  per 
barrel  ? 

A.  There  is  usually  $5  or  $6  a  barrel  difference. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  he  paid  you  for  it  ? 

A.  My  "i  repression  now  is  that  it  was  $21  or  $21.50.  It  might  be  a 
half  a  dollar  either  way.  I  knew  what  his  contract  was,  and  knew  he 
paid  fully  up  to  his  contract.  My  impression  is  that  it  was  $21,  but  I 
could  riot  state  positively,  without  referring  to  my  books. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  inspected  it  ? 

A.  1^0,  sir  ;  only  from  hearsay.  I  understood  that  Mr.  Threlkeld,  or 
his  nephew,  inspected  it. 

Q.  Has  your  firm  more  than  one  house  in  the  city  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  a  house  in  Chicago  ;  Armor  is  the  firm-name; 
Plaukinton  &  Armors,  in  Milwaukee ;  Armor,  Plankinton  &  Co.,  New 
York. 

Q.  Did  any  of  these  houses  furnish  any  pork  to  Mr.  Slavens  last 
year  ? 

A.  I  was  advised  by  our  house  in  Chicago  that  they  sold  him  pork. 

Q.  How  much  ? 

A.  I  could  riot  say  how  much,  but  several  car-loads. 

Q.  What  kind  of  pork  did  they  sell  him? 

A.  Prime  pork.  I  understand  by  correspondence  with  our  house  in 
Chicago,  that  they  sold  him  shoulder-pork  called  prime. 

Q.  What  was  the  value  of  that  pork  in  market  then  ? 

A.  I  think  it  was  about  $16  a  barrel  at  Chicago. 

Q.  What  is  the  cost  of  freighting  to  this  place? 

A.  Thirty-five  cents  per  hundred  pounds  $  about  a  dollar  and  ten  cents 
per  barrel. 

Q.  Was  that  pork  inspected  there  or  here  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  about  its  being  inspected  there.  I  understood  it  was 
inspected  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  inspected  it  here  ? 

A.  Mr.  McCullough,  the  Board  of  Trade  inspector. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  Friday,  September  10,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J,  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  Professor 
MARSH  were  also  present. 

TESTIMONY  OF  BISHOP  WM.  H.  HARE. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Question.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  following  paragraph  in  the 
pamphlet  containing  Professor  Marsh's  charges  : 

Essentially  the  same  excuse  for  the  inferior  character  of  these  cattle  was  made  by 
Agent  Saville,  in  Washington,  June  1,  1875,  when  questioned  by  Bishop  W.  H.  Hare, 
in  my  presence,  iu  regard  to  this  particular  issue.  Agent  Saville  then  stated,  that  the 
condition  of  these  cattle  was  owing  to  hard  driving,  some  forty-eight  hours,  with  lit 
tle  grass  or  sleep,  to  hurry  them  through,  as  the  Indians  had  had  no  beef  for  some 
time,  he  having  kept  back  rations  to  induce  them  to  be  counted.  These  cattle  arrived 
in  the  morning,  and  he  weighed  the  most  of  them  the  same  forenoon.  Some  few, 
that  were  wild,  he  did  not  weigh,  but  estimated.  The  issue  was  made  on  the  same 
afternoon  of  the  receipt.  Among  the  cattle  then  issued  were  forty  or  more  small  and 


604 

"  scalawag"  cattle.  Agent  Saville  was  confident  that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were, 
would  weigh  850  pounds  on  an  average.  On  my  questioning  this,  he  insisted  that 
"  those  he  weighed  came  up  to  that  average,  and  that  those  estimated  were  fully  as 
large.  He,  himself,  weighed  all  of  the  herd  that  were  weighed  on  the  morning  they 
arrived."  Memoranda  of  these  statements  of  Agent  Saville  were  taken  down  at  the 
time  by  both  Bishop  Hare  and  myself,  and  at  a  subsequent  conference  were  found  to 
agree. 

Now,  do  you  recollect  the  extent  of  that  interview  that  took  place  be 
tween  yourself  and  Agent  Saville,  which  is  there  referred  to,  and  if  so, 
give  us  the  substance  of  it.  as  far  as  you  can  recollect? 

Answer.  I  accept  this  statement  with  the  exception  of  one  or  two 
words  that  do  not  affect  its  substance.  I  would  omit  the  phrase  "forty- 
eight  hours."  I  don't  deny  it,  but  I  don't  remember  it.  If  it  be  a  ver 
batim  copy  of  the  statement  I  stand  by  it,  but  there  are  a  few  words  that 
I  do  not  remember.  I  will  read  it  over  again.  |  Beading  :  1  "  Essentially 
the  same  excuse  for  the  inferior  character  of  these  cattle  was  made  by 
Agent  Saville  in  Washington,  June  1,  1875,  when  questioned  by  Bishop 
W.  H.  Hare,  in  iny  presence,  in  regard  to  this  particular  issue."  That  is 
so.  "Agent  Saville  then  stated,  4  that  the  poor  condition  of  these  cat 
tle  was  owing  to  hard  driving  some  forty-eight  hours  with  little  grass  or 
sleep,  to  hurry  them  through,  as  the  Indians  had  had  no  beef  for  some 
time,  he  having  kept  back  rations  to  induce  them  to  be  counted."  That 
is  so,  except  I  won't  be  sure  about  the  words  "  forty-eight  hours."  "  These 
cattle  arrived  in  the  morning  and  he  weighed  most  of  them  the  same  fore 
noon."  That  is  so.  "Some  few  that  were  wild  he  did  not  weigh,  but 
estimated."  That  is  so.  "The  issue  was  made  on  the  same  afternoon  as 
the  receipt."  That  is  so.  "Among  the  cattle  then  issued  were  forty  or 
more  small  and '  scalawag7  cattle."  I  won't  be  sure  about  the  number  ; 
he  may  have  said  forty,  but  I  don't  remember  exactly.  "Agent  Saville 
was  confident  that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  would  weigh  850 
pounds  on  an  average."  That  is  so.  "On  my  questioning  this,  he  in 
sisted  that  'those  he  weighed  came  up  to  that  average,  and  that  those 
estimated  were  fully  as  large.'"  That  is  so.  "  'He  himself  weighed  all 
of  the  herd  that  were  weighed  on  the  morning  they  arrived.'"  That  is 
so. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  understand  Saville  to  say  on  that  occasion  that  these  cat 
tle  would  average  850  pounds,  and  no  more  ! 

A.  Not  to  say  so ;  but  the  impression  upon  my  mind  was,  that  they 
would  not  weigh  more  than  850  pounds.  I  thought  that  a  man  who 
wished  to  prove  that  the  cattle  were  up  to  the  standard  would  not  state 
the  lowest  figure,  but  rather  the  highest  figure  which  his  conscience 
would  allow.  If,  therefore,  Saville  again  and  again  reiterated  that  they 
would  weigh  850  pounds,  it  was  clear  to  me  that  they  would  not  weigh 
950. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Saville  stated  that  in  that  conversation  he  was  repeatedly  asked 
by  yourself  or  Professor  Marsh  whether  the  cattle  would  come  up  to 
850  pounds  as  the  minimum  named  in  the  contract,  to  which  he  said  he 
thought  they  would,  and  more  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  the  "  more."  I  do  not  think  he  could  have  used 
"  more."  I  think  that  would  have  made  an  impression  on  my  mind. 

Q.  Then  as  to  the  other  part  of  his  statement,  that  the  question  was 
put  to  him  to  give  the  minimum  number  of  pounds,  or  the  average  num 
ber  of  pounds  stated  in  the  contract;  do  you  know  whether  the  contract 
was  referred  to  in  vour  conversation  ? 


605 

A.  The  contract  was  referred  to — not  visibly  produced,  but  referred 
to  verbally. 

Q.  I  state  to  you  as  well  as  I  can  remember,  without  being  able  at 
this  moment  to  read  his  exact  statement,  the  substance  of  what  be  said, 
in  order  that,  if  you  think  proper,  you  can  affirm  it  or  contradict  it,  either 
way. 

A.  I  would  not  be  willing  to  do  more  than  to  give  my  impression  of 
it.  There  were  a  great  many  other  things  on  my  mind ;  this  was  with  me 
a  side  issue.  I  am  a  minister;  that  was  no  particular  business  of  mine, 
and  having  asked  about  it,  I  dismissed  the  matter  from*  my  mind,  and 
attended  to  my  usual  affairs;  and  I  don't  wish  to  give  anything  more 
than  as  my  memory  serves  me  now. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  I  wish  to  arrive  at  is,  whether  or  no  you  had  any  recollec 
tion  that  would  enable  you  to  say,  when  Saville  talked  about  the  weight 
of  thecattle,  whether  he  was  speaking  of  their  actual  weight,  or  whether 
he  was  only  combatting  the  statement  that  theywould  not  weigh  850 
pounds — merely  disputing  that  statement  as  a  fact? 

A.  He  was  disputing  that  as  a  fact — that  they  would  not  weigh  850 
pounds.  But  I  talked  with  him  and  with  Professor  Marsh  so  much 
previously  about  it,  and  I  thought  he  never  stated  that  they  would 
weigh  050  pounds;  and  therefore,  when  I  saw  that  it  appeared  from 
certain  vouchers  in  the  Auditor's  Office  that  he  reported  that  they 
averaged  over  a  thousand  pounds,  my  heart  sank  within  me.  But  that 
is  merely  an  inference  of  mine;  I  cannot  present  it  as  anything  like  evi 
dence  ;  I  know  nothing  positive.  . 

Q.  1  will  ask  you.  Bishop,  if  you  recollect  the  circumstance  of  a  con 
versation  between  Dr.  Saville  and  Professor  Marsh  in  reference  to  the 
seven  head  of  cattle  that  it  was  charged  by  Professor  Marsh  were  very 
inferior — the  same  that  General  Bradley  gave  a  certificate  in  reference 
to — if  you  remember  Professor  Marsh  writing  down  something  concern 
ing  it,  and  Dr.  Saville  stopping  him,  and  telling  him  that  he  misrepre 
sented  or  misunderstood  him? 

A.  I  do  remember  it. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Had  you  not  better  state,  Bishop,  what  you  recollect  with  refer 
ence  to  it  ? 

A.  I  would  rather  be  questioned. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  We  would  rather  you  would  give  the  statement  as 
it  presents  itself  to  your  mind. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Dr.  Saville  said  in  his  testimony  before  us: 

When  I  met  Professor  Marsh  again  it  was  in  Bishop  Hare's  room  in  the  hotel.  Here 
this  question  came  up  again,  arid  Professor  Marsh  stated,  in  substance,  that  I  had  said 
that  I  had  received  those  cattle,  and  issued  them  too.  I  told  him  that  I  had  not  said 
so ;  that  I  said  I  thought  I  had  not  receipted  for  them,  but  I  could  not  remember  dis 
tinctly.  He  then  asked  me,  "  If  you  have  received  them,  were  they  issued  to  the  In 
dians?"  I  said  probably  they  were.  He  then  went  to  take  it  down,  and  then  re 
peated  over  nearly  what  he  says  there  in  the  statement.  I  stopped  him  and  told  him 
that  he  willfully  misinterpreted  or  misunderstood  me.  I  told  him  I  thought  he  was 
trying  to  make  up  a  case  against  me,  and  he  did  not  care  how  he  did  it.  By  that  time 
Bishop  Hare  got  up  and  put  his  hand  on  me,  for  I  was  getting  very  angry.  I  said  a 
good  deal  more,  but  that  is  the  substance  of  what  I  said  to  him  about  it. 

Now,  what  is  your  recollection  as  to  that  conversation  "? 

A.  Well,  I  do  not  think  I  can  answer  until  I  know  what  is  said  in 
Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet,  which  is  there  referred  to.  I  am  willing  to 


606 

state  informally,  however,  I  understood  the  point  Professor  Marsh 
made  was  that  Dr.  Saville  had  said  that  he  receipted  for  those  seven 
head  of  cattle,  and  thereby  made  the  Government  responsible  for  them, 
while  I  understood  Dr.  Saville  to  say  that  he  did  not  receipt  for  them, 
but  simply  received  them.  He  made  a  distinction  between  the  two 
words.  He  (Saville)  represented  that  they  were  driven  up  with  the 
rest  of  the  cattle,  and  he  had  permitted  them  to  be  driven  into  the 
corral,  and  afterward  they  were  issued  to  the  Indians;  that  he  did  not 
receipt  for  them,  although  he  received  them.  There  is  a  distinction 
plainly  implied  between  the  two  words.  That  is  to  say,  if  he  had  receipted 
for  them  the  Government  would  be  responsible  and  had  to  pay  for  them, 
wThile,  if  he  merely  allowed  them  to  be  driven  in  and  did  not  receipt  for 
them,  the  Government  was  not  responsible  for  them.  If  a  man  de 
livers  six  barrels  of  merchandise  to  me  and  1  receipt  for  them,  I  am 
responsible  for  them,  and  then  if  he  afterward  delivers  four  more 
barrels,  and  I  do  not  receipt  for  them,  I  am  not  responsible  for  them. 
The  diiference  was  in  the  two  words  "  receipted"  and  "  received,7'  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  understanding  that  it  was  "receipted"  and  Dr.  Saville 
that  it  was  "  received."  It  was  in  regard  to  that  that  the  feeling  was 
displayed.  As  to  which  Saville  had  previously  said  I  do  not  know. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  This  is  what  I  find  in  our  record  of  Dr.  Saville's  testimony  taken 
before  us  at  Bed  Cloud  agency : 

Q.  In  the  same  connection  Professor  Marsh  says  that  "  Agent  Saville  was  confident 
that  these  cattle,  thin  as  they  were,  "would  weigh  850  pounds  ou  an  average ;"  did  you 
make  that  statement  to  him? 

A.  I  shall  have  to  explain  that  in  the  same  way,  by  recalling  what  was  said.  Bishop 
Hare  asked  me  if  these  cattle  would  weigh,  every  one,  a  thousand  pounds,  and  I  said, 
"No,  they  would  not,"  and  then  remarked  that  the  contract  did  not  require  them  to 
be  a  thousand  pounds  in  weight,  and  he  asked  rne  how  much  it  was,  and  I  told  him 
850  pounds,  and  he  turned  to  me  and  said,  "  Did  these  cattle  average  850  pounds  ?  " 
asking  a  general  explanation  if  they  came  up  to  the  contract.  I  answered  him  in  these 
words,  "  Yes,  and  more."  Those  I  think  were  the  exact  words. 

Q.  Did  you  at  any  time  claim  in  that  conversation  or  any  other  that  they  weighed 
850  pounds  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  fixing  the  amount;  only  that  they  filled  the  contract. 

I  ask  you  now  if  that  statement  accords  with  your  recollection  ? 

A.  I  would  omit  the  words  "  and  more,"  but  if  I  was  put  on  rny  oath 
to  deny  that  he  said  "  and  more  "  I  should  prefer  not  saying  it,  because 
it'is  merely  a  matter  of  memory,  and  a  man's  character  is  at  stake. 

Q.  Then,  Bishop,  how  in  other  respects  does  the  statement  agree 
with  your  recollection  ? 

A.  Exactly. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  speaking  of  the  "  thousand  pounds  "and 
"  the  contract  F 
i    A.  I  do. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  want  in  that  connection  to  ask  another  question  :  Do  you 
know  whether  or  not  Saville  at  that  time,  in  the  presence  of  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  and  yourself,  claimed  that  he  was  then  speaking  without  his 
books,  and  without  the  means  of  giving  you  the  exact  figures  in  the 
matter  ? 
(  A.  I  do  not  remember  that  he  claimed  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that  was  the  fact,  whether  he  had 
any  books  by  him,  or  whether  you  had  a  transcript  of  the  books  ? 


607 

A.  He  did  not  produce  any. 

Q.  Had  you  or  Professor  Marsh  transcripts  of  his  accounts  ? 

A.  I  had  not. 

Q.  Perhaps  it  could  not  be  so  at  that  time,  because  I  believe  you  af 
terwards  saw  the  record  of  his  statement  of  the  weight  of  the  cattle 
received  on  that  day. 

A.  I  saw  it  in  Professor  Marsh's  statement. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Bishop,  have  you  read  the  pamphlet  of  Professor  Marsh  ? 

A.  Not  fully.  I  took  it  up,  but  I  was  very  busy  with  other  matters 
and  have  not  read  it  fully. 

Q.  Then  you  are  not  aware  of  what  the  charges  are  which  are  made 
in  his  statement  to  the  commission  ? 

A.  No  ;  not  specifically. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  have  read  them  and  are  aware  of  them,  is  there  any 
information  that  you  can  give  us  that  would  be  relevant  to  the  questions 
raised  there,  going  to  show  the  correctness  of  any  of  those  charges  ;  any 
testimony  in  support  of  them  that  you  could  give  us  I 

A.  I  would  prefer  you  to  ask  me  questions.  I  have  nothing  to  say  in 
answer  to  that  general  question  ;  but  I  should  be  very  glad  to  answer 
any  particular  question. 

Q.  Well,  then,  are  you  aware  of  any  frauds  perpetrated  upon  the  In 
dians  by  Agent  Saville  9 

A.  I  am  not. 

Q.  Or  upon  the  Government  ? 

A.  I  am  not. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  whether  or  not  the  number  of  Indians  at  the  Red 
Cloud  agency  has  been  overestimated  or  overstated  by  the  agent  or  by 
anybody  else,  by  which  the  Government  has  been  wronged  9 

A.  I  am  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  whether  or  not  you  have  so  investigated  that 
matter  as  to  have  formed  an  opinion  upon  that  subject? 

A.  I  examined  that  matter  when  I  was  at  the  agency  in  March,  1874. 
So  far  as  I  know,  Saville's  reports  up  to  that  date  regarding  the  number 
of  Indians  were  true.  But  there  is  no  subject  upon  which  men  have 
such  difference  of  opinion  as  upon  the  number  of  Indians.  Regarding 
the  time  when  Professor  Marsh  was  there  I  have  no  information.  I  was 
not  there.  Upon  the  subject  of  the  general  question  I  would  refer  to 
what  I  wrote  in  my  report :  "  In  the  third  place,  the  testimony  is 
abundant  and  unanimous  to  the  point  that  these  agencies,  always  the 
refuge  in  winter  of  northern  Indians  who  have  connected  themselves 
with  no  agency  in  particular,  were  last  winter  the  resort  of  a  larger 
number  than  usual." 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  in  reference  to  the  issue  of  annuity-goods 
at  Red  Cloud  agency  in  1874  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  are  not  aware  of  any  circumstance  that  might  be  regarded  as 
fraudulent  in  reference  to  the  issue  of  goods  i 

A.  1  am  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  quality  of  the  beef  issued  by  the 
agent  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  At  what  time  ? 

Q.  At  any  time  ? 


608 

A.  Regarding  the  time  covered  by  my  report,  you  have  here  what  I 
have  said : 

The  commission  took  particular  pains  to  inquire  into  the  quality  and  weight  of  the 
beef  furnished  by  the  contractor  during  the  current  fiscal  year.  The  testimony  of 
many  witnesses,  and  the  personal  observation  of  the  members  of  the  commission,  con 
vinced  them  that  the  cattle  have  been  remarkably  excellent  in  quality,  size,  and  con 
dition,  and  that  their  average  weight  has  been,  on  the  whole,  considerably  above  that 
required  by  the  contract.  The  average  weight  required  by  the  terms  of  the  contract 
for  the  six  months  beginning  July  1,  1873,  was  eight  hundred  pounds,  while  the  cattle 
actually  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  time  regarding  which  the  incum 
bency  of  the  present  agent  enabled  him  to  testify  weighed  on  an  average  as  follows : 

First  six  months. 


Date. 

No.   of 
head. 

Average 
weight. 

Total. 

An  ""list  8  

20 

1,050 

21  000 

August  15 

383 

1  010 

386  P30 

September  1  

483 

1  040 

502  320 

September  15 

561 

1  056 

589  050 

October  1           .             

647 

1  063 

687  761 

October  15  

633 

1,043 

660  219 

November  1 

290 

993 

287  970 

November  15  

410 

963 

396  470 

December  1 

507 

975 

494  947 

December  15 

508 

946 

480  568 

The  average  weight  required  by  contract  during  the  six  months  beginning  January 
1,  1874,  was  one  thousand  and  fifty  pounds,  while  the  average  weight  delivered  was  as 
follows,  viz  : 

Second  six  months,  up  to  date. 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Average 
weight. 

Total. 

312 

904 

282  310 

January  11 

330 

881 

290  856 

January  21  -  

340 

1,  002 

340,  908 

February  2 

356 

993 

352  508 

February  15        ..         

300 

1,016 

305,  064 

March  7 

350 

1  063 

372  050 

March  23                                            ...                                              

271 

1,  053 

285,  425 

These  latter  figures  are  below  those  required  by  the  contract,  but  not  as  ranch  below 
as  those  for  the  first  six  months  are  above.  The  whole  average  has  been  in  advance  of 
that  which  the  contract  demanded. 

I  have  read  that  report  this  morning  and  I  stand  by  every  word  of 
it  to-day. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  on  the  subject  that  is  not  embraced  in 
your  report  ? 

A.  Do  you  mean  up  to  the  time  that  report  was  made,  or  since  then  ? 

Q.  Since  that  time. 

A.  No,  I  have  no  knowledge. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  persons  who  have  any  knowl 
edge  on  the  subject? 

A.  No,  I  cannot.  1  will  say,  gentlemen,  that  I  stood  by  Agent  Saville 
because  I  believed  him  to  be  an  honest  man  in  a  difficult  position,  fret 
ted  by  men  some  of  whom  had  bad  motives,  until  I  met  him  here  last 
June.  Then  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that  he  was  not  the  man  for  the 
place. 


609 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Was  that  conclusion  based  upon  any  facts,  or  upon  his  temper  and 
character  ? 

A.  Partly  upon  his  temper ;  partly  upon  the  fact  that  he  had  been  so 
bothered,  and  there  were  so  many  persons  enlisted  against  him,  that  I 
believed  his  influence  for  good  was  gone ;  and  partly — I  would  rather 
what  I  say  would  not  be  put  down  ;  it  is  not  testimony;  a  man's  char 
acter  is  at  stake,  and  I  cannot  say  it  if  it  is  to  be  put  down— but  I  will 
state  what  I  was  going  to  say  for  the  benefit  of  the  commission. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  This  is  not  the  time  or  place  for  confidential  communi 
cations. 

Bishop  HARE.  Well,  then,  I  will  say,  in  the  third  place,  that  I  thought 
the  Episcopal  Church  should  no  longer  be  responsible  in  any  way  for  an 
agent  regarding  whose  character  so  many  questions  had  been  raised. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  frauds  or  wrong-doing  on  the  part  of  any 
beef-contractor  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency,  or  at  the  Spotted  Tail  agency? 

A.  No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  character  and  quality  of  some  pork 
that  was  issued  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  in  1874  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  quality  of  some  flour  that  was  issued 
there  in  1874  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  any  fraud  or  wrong-doing  on  the  part 
of  any  contractor,  in  reference  to  flour  furnished  to  either  of  those 
agencies  ? 

A.  You  refer  of  course  to  personal  knowledge,  not  to  what  I  have 
heard  people  say.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge.  I  do  not  think  I 
have  any  information  on  that  subject  that  is  not  common  rumor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  character  of  the  sugar,  coffee,  and 
tobacco  issued  at  that  agency  in  1874 I 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  suffering  of  the  Indians  in  the 
winter  of  1874-'75  and  the  spring  of  1875  ? 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  true  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  the 
Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  know  there  is  a  dispute  regarding  that  matter,  based  upon  the 
different  routes  they  may  have  followed  ;  one  leading  across  the  Platte, 
at  Nick  Janis's  ranch,  which  is  the  shorter  route,  and  that  by  Fort 
Laramie,  which  is  the  longer.  The  distance,  as  I  and  my  colleagues 
judged  it  to  be.  when  we  were  there  in  1873,  from  Cheyenne  to  Spotted 
Tail,  is  given  in  this  report.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  the  distance.  I 
have  traveled  it  four,  five,  or  six  times,  but  I  have  no  accurate  knowl 
edge  on  that  subject. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  any  instance  of  alleged  frauds  or  mis 
management  on  the  part  of  any  person  connected  with  the  Indian  De 
partment,  being  brought  to  the  knowledge  or  notice  of  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs  or  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  of  which  alleged  frauds 
or  mismanagement  no  notice  was  taken  by  them  ? 

A.  No;  none  whatsoever.     I  have  no  knowledge  of  any  such  case. 
On  the  contrary,  I  have  never  brought  to  the  attention  of  the  Depart 
ment  what  I  thought  to  be  a  suspicious  proceeding  that  it  was  not  im 
mediately  noticed  and  attended  to.    • 
39  i  F 


610 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  or  information  of  any  fraud  or  mis 
management  on  the  part  of  any  other  person  connected  with  the  Indian 
Department  that  I  have  not  called  your  attention  to  ? 

A.  I  would  like  that  question  to  be  limited  to  officers  in  authority  at 
Washington  and  Indian  agents.  As  it  is,  it  is  too  general  a  question, 
and  1  should  have  to  ransack  my  mind  for  two  or  three  years. 

Q.  Well,  including  agents  now  holding  office,  and  about  whom  there 
are  no  investigations  set  on  foot,  against  whom  no  charges  have  been 
made  ? 

A.  I  would  rather  the  question  would  be  divided. 

Q.  First,  then,  as  to  officers  and  employes  in  the  Department  at  Wash 
ington  ? 

A.  I  can  say  perfectly  fully  and  freely,  regarding  that,  that  all  my  in 
tercourse  with  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the  Assistant  Secretary, 
and  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  has  tended  but  to  win  for  them 
my  respect  and  regard.  I  have  never  known  of  their  being  guilty  of 
any  fraudulent  practice  whatsoever. 

Q.  Or  tolerating  it  in  others  ? 

A.  Nor  tolerating  it  in  others. 

Q,  Now,  in  reference  to  the  agents  and  employes  in  the  Indian  coun 
try,  is  there  anything  that  you  know  of  concerning  them  J? 

A.  Before  I  give  my  answer  to  that  question  I  would  like  to  say  that 
my  relations  with  Indian  agents  are  somewhat  confidential.  I  go  among 
them  as  a  minister.  They  know  perfectly  well  that  I  have  official  rela 
tions  with  the  officers  of  the  Government.  Sometimes  an  agent  tells  me 
things  confidentially,  and  I  say  to  him,  "  You  ought  never  to  have  done  it. 
If  you  do  it  again  1  will  report  it  to  the  Government."  In  that  way  an 
agent  tells  me  confidential  matters  connected  with  his  management. 
Now,  I  will  give  my  answer  to  your  question.  It  is  this:  I  have  no 
knowledge  of  fraud  on  the  part  of  any  agent  now  in  the  field.  Regard 
ing  some,  however,  I  have  suspicious. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  persons  who,  in  your  opin 
ion,  would  be  likely  to  afford  us  information  going  to  establish  any  of 
the  charges  contained  in  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet — persons  who 
would  be  likely  to  know  the  lacts  or  to  know  of  the  frauds,  if  they  ex 
isted  ? 

A.  I  cannot.  The  gentlemen  whom  you  have  questioned,  the  beef- 
contractors  and  such  persons,  I  suppose,  could  give  you  information. 
Your  question  means  that  you  wish  to  know  if  I  have  any  knowledge  as 
a  secret.  My  answer  is  that  I  have  no  such  knowledge  or  information. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Has  anything  occurred  since  you  prepared  that  report,  either  from 
your  personal  knowledge  or  on  satisfactory  information,  that  would  lead 
you  to  vary  or  modify  the  conclusions  of  that  report  so  far  as  the  admin 
istration  of  the  agency  at  lied  Cloud  is  concerned  ? 

A.  Nothing  whatsoever  to  change  my  opinion  regarding  the  adminis 
tration  up  to  the  date  of  that  report. 

Q.  I  was  not  speaking  of  the  date  of  the  report;  I  was  speaking  of 
up  to  the  present  time.  Has  anything  occurred  since  the  date  of  that 
report,  arising  either  upon  personal  knowledge  or  to  your  own  mind  sat 
isfactory  information,  that  would  vary  the  conclusions  of  that  report? 

A.  I  have  become  very  suspicious  regarding  the  condition  of  affairs 
at  that  agency  during  the  last  year  ;  but  I  have  no  knowledge. 
.  Q.  Has  the  Episcopal  Church  ever  intimated  to  the  Department  any 


611 

want  of  confidence  in  the  agent  at  Bed  Cloud  agency,  who,  I  believe, 
is  of  their  own  selection  ? 

A.  Never.  I  would  like  to  add  to  that,  that  upon  conference  with 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  last  June,  we  both  concluded  that 
Saville  had  better  vacate  his  place. 

Q.  Can  you  assign  any  reason  why  more  progress  has  not  been  made 
in  the  establishment  of  schools  and  in  missionary  labors  at  that 
agency  ? 

A.  The  agency  and  the  administration  of  the  agent  have  been  the 
subject  of  constant  attack,  and  the  agency  itself  has  been  the  resort  of 
the  wildest  Indians.  In  the  uncertainty  which  these  two  facts  have  pro 
duced  I  have  felt  indisposed  to  begin  either  schools  or  churches.  Now, 
gentlemen,  I  am  perfectly  willing,  at  any  inconvenience,  to  stay  here 
longer  if  it  is  essential  to  the  truth  ;  but  my  time  is  up.  I  am  going  out  of 
town,  and  I  have  but  twenty  minutes  to  reach  the  railroad  depot,  and 
the  carriage  is  waiting  for  me.  I  would  be  very  glad  to  stay  if  I  can  be 
of  any  service.  But  I  would  like  to  say  that  I  do  not  like  to  be  asked 
general  questions  in  a  public  investigation.  I  am  willing  to  confer  pri 
vately  with  the  commissioners  and  give  them  all  the  information  and 
suggestions  in  my  power.  But  I  do  not  think  I  can,  in  justice  to  the 
character  of  others,  answer  such  general  questions  as  have  been  pro 
pounded. 

The  commissioners  being  desirous  to  hear  further  from  Bishop  Hare, 
because  of  his  extensive  knowledge  in  reference  to  the  management  of 
Indian  affairs,  prevailed  upon  him  to  remain,  and  the  [examination  was 
continued. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  can  appreciate  your  delicacy  in  this  matter,  but 
you  might  give  us  some  suggestions  that  would  be  of  use  to  us. 

Bishop  HARE.  I  have  nothing  to  say  on  the  Indian  question  which  I 
would  not  state  in  the  presence  of  Professor  Marsh  or  any  representa 
tive  of  the  Indian  Department,  or  to  any  gentleman  who  would  be  talk 
ing  with  me  as  gentlemen  talk  among  themselves. 

Some  general  conversation  here  followed,  in  the  course  of  which 
Bishop  Hare  asked  Mr.  Faulkner  why  he  had  put  to  him  the  question  as 
to  whether  anything  had  occurred  since  the  date  of  his  report  that 
would  lead  him  to  modify  the  conclusions  at  which  he  had  arrived  in 
that  report. 

Mr.  Faulkner  replied  that  the  question  was  suggested  to  him.  by  the 
bishop's  own  remark  that  he  had  stood  by  Agent  Saville  until  the  time 
of  his  visit  to  Washington  in  June  last,  when  he  came  to  the  conclusion 
that  he  was  not  the  man  for  the  place.  The  conversation  then  turned 
upon  the  condition  of  affairs  in  that  Indian  country  at  the  time  the 
bishop  made  the  investigations  upon  which  his  report  was  based,  and  in 
this  connection  the  Bishop  went  on  to  say : 

BISHOP  HARE.  Several  white  men  had  been  killed  in  the  neighborhood 
of  Laramie  Peak  within  two  days.  So  many  murders  had  occurred  that 
the  whites  became  alarmed.  I  had  private  information  from  Indians  which 
was  threatening.  Some  men  urged  that  these  Indians  had  been  driven 
to  frenzy  by  wrongs  perpetrated  upon  them  by  their  agents,  and  hence 
there  were  warlike  proceedings.  I  was  telegraphed  to  by  the  Govern 
ment,  and  asked  to  go  out  to  Red  Cloud  agency  and  Spotted  Tail 
agency  (I  was  then  at  Yanktou  agency)  and  examine  into  the  true  state 
of  affairs  at  those  agencies.  Those  Indians  had  been  put  under  my 
missionary  care,  and  the  agents  were  the  nominees  of  the  Episcopal 
Church.  I  felt  bound  to  go,  and  out  of  my  going  there  came  this  report. 


612 

I  did  not  go  to  examine  into  the  truth  of  Mr.  Walker's  report  as  my 
chief  business.  The  question  was  altogether  a  bigger  one;  that  is  to 
say,  gentlemen,  some  people  maintain  that  the  Indians  never  do  wrong 
and  never  have  committed  depredations  5  that  some  white  men  must 
have  been  the  immediate  cause.  That  is  all  humbug.  These  Indians 
are  very  violent,  very  savage,  and  burst  into  war  simply  from  the  vio 
lence  of  their  natures.  Of  course  they  are  grievously  outraged  by 
white  men,  but  not  always  by  their  agents.  I  have  read  this  morning 
the  report  wilich  I  made  a  year  ago  last  April,  and  I  am  pleased  with  it 
to-day.  I  will  say,  moreover,  that  in  all  my  experience  in  the  Indian 
country  the  rations  that  I  have  seen  have  been  wTholesome  and  good, 
but  not  first-class.  At  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  in 
March,  1874,  I  saw7  bad  flour.  So  far  as  I  could  discover,  it  was  the  re 
mains  of  flour  sent  there  the  previous  year. 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  wish  the  bishop  would  give  the  commission  some  idea  of 
his  experience  ;  how  extensive  it  is. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  A  more  pertinent  question  would  be  :  What  has  been  his 
experience  with  reference  to  the  rations  at  lied  Cloud  and  Whetstone 
agencies  ? 

Bishop  HARE.  I  was  at  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  in  March 
and  April,  1874,  and  again  in  August  of  the  same  year.  On  the  first 
occasion  1  made  an  extended  examination  of  the  supplies,  and  my  con 
clusions  were  embraced  in  this  report,  as  follows  : 

Your  commission  are  of  opinion  that  a  due  regard  to  the  interests  of  the  Government  and 
the  Indians  demands  that  all  packages  consigned  to  agents  for  the  Indians  in  fulfillment 
of  contracts,  should,  without  exception,  bear  the  brand  which  marks  them  as  the  property 
of  the  Indian  Department,  and  also  the  brand  of  the  inspector,  indicating  that  they  have 
passed  his  inspection. 

Their  examination  of  flour  in  an  unloaded  car  at  the  Cheyenne  store-house,  and  of  sup 
plies  in  that  store-house  and  at  the  agencies  revealed  the  fact  that  this  branding  is  fre 
quently  omitted.  Many  packages  bore  neither  brand. 

They  noticed  that  barreled  pork  is  supplied  to  a  degree  at  Whetstone  agency  instead  of 
bacon.  The  supply  of  the  latter  article  at  both  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  was 
exhausted,  so  that  the  commission  was  unable  to  judge  of  its  quality.  They  examined  the 
pork,  however,  and  found  it  sweet  and  good. 

The  commission  were  not  furnished  with  samples,  and  therefore  could  not  determine 
whether  the  supplies  were  up  to  the  standard  required  by  the  contract.  They  examined, 
however,  the  flour,  sugar,  coffee,  and  other  supplies  on  hand  at  both  agencies  and  in  the  store 
house  at  Cheyenne.  They  were  all  of  fair  quality.  Both  the  agents  agreed  that  it  wrould 
be  better  to  provide  baking-powders  instead  of  saleratus,  as  the  Indians  do  not  know  how  to 
use  the  latter  properly. 

It  is  mentioned,  however,  somewhere  in  the  report,  that  there  was 
some  flour  that  was  poor. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  have  you  describe  the  flour  which  you  say  was 
poor.  What  was  its  character  ? 

A.  It  was  stuck  together  as  if  it  had  been  wet.  It  was  mildewed. 
The  bags  were  very  muddy,  and  the  rats  had  eaten  into  the  sacks. 

Q.  Were  you  informed  whether  or  not  that  flour  was  being  issued  ! 

A.  So  far  as  I  know  it  wras  issued  to  the  Indians  only  for  their  ponies. 

Q.  Was  there  at  the  same  time  any  flour  of  a  different  quality  on 
hand  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  1  ate  it  in  bread.  It  was  not  first-class,  but  sweet  and 
wholesome. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  yon  to  say  that  that  damaged  flour  had  lain  over 
from  the  previous  year? 

A.  I  do  not  recollect  exactly,  but  that  is  my  impression.  I  think  this 
report  of  mine  would  make  that  appear.  It  is  eighteen  months  since  1 


613 

made  this  report,  and  I  have  not  looked  it  over  since  then  until  this 
morning.  I  remember  distinctly  this  :  that  I  discovered  that  the  agent 
then  there  was  not  responsible  for  the  bad  flour.  It  did  not  come  there 
in  his  day.  1  did  not  touch  the  time  anterior  to  the  appointment  of  the 
agent  who  was  then  in  office. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  In  speaking  of  the  occasion  of  your  investigation,  you  spoke  of 
the  Walker  report.  I  would  like  to  ask  whether  or  not  the  Walker 
report  was  before  you  at  the  time  you  were  making  your  investiga 
tions  ? 

A.  It  was. 

Q.  Were  your  inquiries  directed  to  the  subject-matter  of  that  report 
in  such  a  way  as  to  lead  you  to  ascertain  whether  the  charges  contained 
therein  were  correct  or  incorrect  ? 

A.  My  attention  was  so  directed  to  it. 

Q.  I  understood  you  in  your  statement  that  it  was  merely  an  inci 
dental  matter? 

A.  So  it  was.  If  I  had  been  asked  by  the  Government  to  go  out 
and  investigate  certain  charges  made  by  Mr.  Walker  from  hearsay,  I 
would  have  declined,  because  it  would  have  imposed  upon  me  the  ne 
cessity  of  inquiring  into  the  quality  of  goods,  &c.,  with  which  I  am  not 
familiar.  The  question  is  a  bigger  one,  viz,  "  What  in  the  world  is  the 
truth  regarding  the  condition  of  affairs  at  the  agency  f  One  man  says 
one  thing,  and  another  man  says  another  *F  I  was  told  I  was  on  the 
ground  ;  that  the  Government  had  confidence  in  me  5  and  I  was  given 
to  understand  that  any  recommendations  that  I  or  my  associates 
might  make  as  to  the  proper  way  of  managing  those  agencies,  whether 
by  military  officers,  or  in  any  other  way,  would  be  accurately  and  relig 
iously  observed. 

Q.  Your  conclusions  with  regard  to  the  charges  contained  in  the 
Walker  report  are  expressed  in  your  own  report  ? 

A.  Entirely.  I  believe  that  report  of  Mr.  Walker  was  most  unfair, 
and  in  its  mode  of  inquiry,  contemptible. 

Q.  Has  your  attention  recently  been  called  to  a  letter  of  Mr.  Walker's 
in  which  he  reviews  your  report  in  connection  with  his  charges  f 

A.  I  noticed  the  heading  of  such  a  letter  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  it  particularly  so  as  to  notice  the  alleged  dis 
crepancies  which  he  points  out  between  your  report  and  the  facts  as  he 
alleges  them  ? 

A.  I  glanced  over  the  letter,  and  came  to  the  conclusion  that  its 
spirit  was  no  more  fair  than  that  of  his  first  report. 

Q.  I  am  not. after  the  spirit  now,  but  the  facts  of  that  letter.  He 
makes  some  specific  statement  of  alleged  discrepancy  between  the  facts 
as  he  found  them,  and  the  statements  in  your  report.  Has  your  atten 
tion  been  called  to  it  so  as  to  say  whether  this  discrepancy  actually 
existed  or  not  ? 

A.  I  have  not  read  his  letter  carefully  enough  to  determine. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  want  to  direct  your  attention  back,  Bishop,  to  where  you  leave 
the  subject  of  Dr.  Saville.  You  stated  specifically  that  up  to  a  period 
in  June,  when  you  met  Mr.  Marsh  here,  you  had  full  confidence  in  Dr. 
Saville,  and  there  you  leave  it.  That  implies,  perhaps,  that  since  that 
period  of  time  you  have  not  had  full  confidence  in  him.  I  want  to  ask 
you  this  question  :  whether  any  fact  came  to  your  knowledge  in  June, 


614 

which  has  shaken  your  confidence  in  him  ;  and,  if  so,  what  is  that  fact,, 
or  if  not  a  fact  absolutely  within  your  own  knowledge,  yet  what  sup 
posed  fact  had  that  effect  upon  you  ? 

A.  My  confidence  in  Dr.  Saville  is  not  so  shaken  that  the  opinion 
that  other  men  hold  of  him  ought  to  be  affected  by  it. 

Q.  Well,  that  does  not  quite  answer  my  question.  I  merely  want 
to  ascertain  whether  there  is  in  your  mind  some  fact,  or  supposed  fact, 
which  affects  your  opinion  of  him. 

A.  There  is  a  supposed  fact. 

Q.  What  is  it  ? 

A.  Tbe  statement  in  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet  in  regard  to  the 
weight  of  cattle,  as  it  appears  from  the  books  of  the  Second  Auditor  of 
the  Treasury.  In  that  statement  it  appears  that  the  cattle  averaged  a 
thousand  pounds  and  more.  I  did  not  understand  Saville  to  claim 
that  they  would  average  more  than  eight  hundred  and  fifty  pounds. 

Q.  Then  it  is  that  statement — the  fact  that  the  cattle  were  paid  for 
by  the  Government  at  those  rates,  (for  we  can  take  it  as  a  fact,)  taken 
in  connection  with  the  statement  of  Saville  in  the  presence  of  Professor 
Marsh  that  they  would  not  weigh  more  than  eight  hundred  and  fifty 
pounds — which  affects  your  mind  ? 

A.  Yes;  and  an  appearance  of  something  like  equivocation  in  Dr. 
Saville.  That  is  to  say,  Dr.  Saville  does  not  give  a  clear  and  concise 
answer  to  a  question,  but  I  must  say,  in  justice  to  him,  that  I  do  not 
knowr  anything  which  before  a  judge  and  jury  would  convict  Saville  cf 
not  being  a  thoroughly  upright  man. 

Q.  It  is  stated  in  the  report  of  the  Auditor  that  the  contractor  re 
ceived  pay  for  cattle  of  those  weights  within  those  periods.  In  the 
conversation  with  Saville  about  it  before  that  report  was  made,  or  be 
fore  those  documents  came  to  the  Department,  Saville,  in  a  conversa 
tion  with  you,  said  he  thought  they  would  weigh  eight  hundred  and 
fifty  pounds,  according  to  the  contract.  If  that  statement  of  his  is  the 
truth  then  you  conclude  that  there  has  been  a  fraud  1 

A.  Because  of  an  inference  in  my  mind  that  they  would  not  weigh 
any  more. 

Q.  You  reason  from  those  two  facts  that  there  may  be  an  error 
there,  or  a  fraud  on  his  part  ? 

A.  Y^es ;  I  do  not  consider  it  conclusive  reasoning. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  now,  except  what  you  have  stated,  con 
cerning  the  weight  of  those  cattle,  or  have  you  any  information  except 
what  you  have  stated  ? 

A.  ^o  information  whatsoever.  I  am  very  sorry  indeed  I  have  said 
so  much  as  I  have  on  this  subject.  I  do  not  think  it  is  fair  to  Dr. 
Saville.  These  are  things  that  while  they  may  be  talked  of  among 
gentlemen  privately,  yet  such  conversation  is  not  matter  of  testimony ; 
and  I  would  appeal  to  the  chairman  that  all  that  matter  should  be 
stricken  out  of  the  record.  It  has  been  wormed  out  of  me,  and  it  touches 
Dr.  Saville's  character. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  That  is  the  way  we  have  had  to  get  a  good  deal  of  our  testi 
mony.  We  have  had  to  worry  it  out  of  people.  I  want  to  know 
whether  you  know  of  any  other  fact  which  has  not  been  wormed  out 
of  you?  I  am  of  that  class  who  believe  that  the  truth  cannot  always 
be  got  out  of  a  witness  except  by  worming  it  out  of  him.  I  want  to 
know  whether  there  is  any  other  fact,  or  supposed  fact,  which  has 
affected  your  opinion  of  Dr.  Saville  ? 


615 

A.  I  cannot  answer  that  question.  I  will  answer  no  question  unless 
it  is  understood  that  it  is  answered  by  courtesy. 

Q.  Bishop,  my  question  may  not  be  considered  entirely  fair,  because 
you  have  already  stated  your  objection,  but  you  said  that  up  to  a  cer 
tain  period  you  had  known  Dr.  Saville ;  that  you  had  believed  him 
honest ;  that  at  a  certain  time  your  mind  was  affected.  The  same  facts 
would  probably  affect  the  minds  of  the  commissioners,  or  the  same 
supposed  state  of  facts  would  lead  to  inquiry,  and  that  is  my  only  ob 
ject  in  putting  the  question. 

A.  My  answer  is  that  I  know  of  no  facts  this  day  which  would  con 
demn  Agent  Saville  as  dishonest  or  corrupt.  If  it  is  a  fact  that  he  said 
they  would  weigh  no  more  than  eight  hundred  and  fifty  pounds,  I  should 
say  he  is  dishonest. 

Q.  And,  on  the  other  hand,  if  he  says  they  will  weigh  fully  eight  hun 
dred  and  fifty  pounds,  then  there  is  another  state  of  facts  ? 

A.  Certainly. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Didn't  you  conclude  in  your  conversation  on  that  evening  with  me 
that  he  meant  to  claim  that  the  average  weight  of  the  cattle  was  eight 
hundred  and  fifty  pounds  ? 

A.  I  did. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  May  you  not  have  been  mistaken  about  what  he  intended  to  con 
vey? 
A.  Yes.     I  wish  to  be  understood  as  saying  so. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  How  much  time  did  your  commission  spend  at  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  '? 

A.  The  commissioners  arrived  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  Sunday 
morning,  March  15,  and  on  Monday  began  their  investigations  into,  the 
condition  of  affairs  there,  and  continued  them  until  March  18,  when 
they  drove  to  Whetstone  agency,  and  began  a  similar  examination  there. 
They  returned  to  the  Ked  Cloud  agency  Friday,  March  27,  and  resumed 
their  investigations,  concluding  them  the  following  Tuesday.  Then 
they  resumed  their  examination  at  the  Whetstone  agency. 

Q.  How  much  time  was  spent  in  actual  investigation  at  Eed  Cloud 
agency  ? 

A.  1  should  think  ten  hours  a  day. 

Q.  I  mean  the  number  of  days  also ;  especially  the  number  of  days 
in  the  investigation  proper. 

A.  It  is  impossible  to  recall  it  accurately,  but  I  should  say  at  the  rate 
of  five  hours  a  day,  for  five  days,  at  the  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  know  in  advance  of  your  visit,  and  did  he  make 
preparations  for  your  inspection  ? 

A.  He  did  know  in  advance ;  whether  he  made  preparations  or  not  I 
do  not  know. 

Q.  Have  the  recommendations  made  by  your  commission  been  car 
ried  out  since  by  the  Indian  Bureau?  I  mean  all  the  recommendations 
which  you  made,  whether  in  your  report  or  orally. 

A.  The  recommendations  are  on  page  20  of  my  report. 

Q.  First  in  regard  to  those  mentioned  in  the  report. 

A.  I  am  not  informed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  any  of  these  recommendations  have  been  fully 
carried  out  ? 


616 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  recommendations  that  you  have  made  do 
you  know  to  have  been  carried  out  fully  ? 

A.  I  cannot  answer  that  question  in  that  form.  If  you  number  the 
recommendations — number  one,  two,  three,  four,  five,  &c!,  I  can  give  you 
all  my  knowledge  about  them. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  take  your  recommendation,  which  we  will  mark  No.  1, 
"  That  the  agents  at  the  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and  at 
any  agencies  hereafter  established  among  the  wilder  Sioux,  to  be  sup 
ported  by  a  military  force,  which  should,  however,  except  under  extraor 
dinary  circumstances,  be  at  a  short  distance  from  the  agency  and  not 
immediately  adjoining.  The  relation  of  the  agent  and  the  commanding 
officer  should  be  definitely  determined.  That  an  agency  be  provided 
for  the  Northern  Sioux,  and  that,  to  this  end,  they  be  refused  rations  at 
the  existing  agencies,  and  a  delegation  of  them  be  induced  to  visit  Wash 
ington,  and  that  the  location  of  the  agency  be  in  the  neighborhood  of 
the  Black  Hills  P 

A.  I  have  no  information  as  to  whether  that  has  been  carried  out. 

Q.  As  to  your  second  recommendation,  "  That  all  beef  and  other  pro 
visions  be  issued  by  orders  on  the  issue-clerk,  which  orders  should  pass 
through  the  office,  in  order  to  their  appearance  on  the  books ;  that  these 
orders  be  filed  away  for  safe-keeping,  and  the  books  and  papers  of  the 
agency  be  the  property  of  the  Government  and  not  of  the  agent  f 

A.  1  don't  know  whether  those  recommendations  have  been  carried  out 
or  not.  They  are  very  strong  recommendations,  however,  gentlemen,  to 
appear  in  a  report  said  to  have  been  gotten  up  in  the  interest  of  the 
Eing. 

Q.  As  to  your  third  recommendation,  "That  brands  of  United  States 
Indian  Department  and  of  inspector  be  placed  upon  all  packages  con 
signed  to  agents  under  contract  ?" 

A.  I  do  not  know  whether  that  recommendation  has  been  carried  out. 

Q.  Then  as  to  the  fourth  :  k'Eecommendatiou,  as  to  beef  for  balance  of 
the  current  year?" 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Had  you  seen  anything  in  Saville's  conduct  before  June,  1875,  that 
made  you  think  him  morally  weak  ? 

A.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question,  respectfully,  to  you.  I  would  like 
to  add,  with  reference  to  Saville's  moral  character,  that  it  is  "equal  to  the 
average." 

Mr.  HARRIS.  That  term  "  morally  weak  "  has  not  been  used  before. 

Professor  MARSH.  The  bishop  will  understand  what  "  morally  weak" 
means. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  have  nothing  more  to  ask. 

Bishop  HAKE.  I  wish  to  say  distinctly,  that  in  the  conversation  be 
tween  Dr.  Saville  and  Professor  Marsh  I  understood  the  question  at 
issue  to  be  whether  the  cattle  receipted  for  came  up  to  the  average  re 
quired  by  the  contract  or  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether  or  not  it  was  claimed  on  the  one  side  that 
they  did  riot  come  up  to  the  average,  and  on  the  other  that  they  did ; 
was  that  the  matter  of  controversy  ? 

A.  Yes. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  I  understood  the  issue  to  be  somewhat  different  from  that. 

A.  I  should  be  very  glad  to  have  my  memory  corrected. 


617 

Q.  Do  you  remember  our  conversation  about  the  actual  weight  of  the 
cattle  before  Saville  came  to  your  room  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  I  do. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  what  that  was  in  substance  ? 

A.  I  think  I  remembered  your  stating  that  in  your  opinion  they 
would  fall  below  the  contract  average  ;  but  I  understand  the  issue  when 
Saville  was  present  to  be  whether  the  cattle  came  up  to  the  contract 
average  or  not.  That  is  my  memory. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  that  led  you  to  infer  that  he  claimed  more 
than  850  pounds  actual  weight  for  that  lot  of  cattle  ? 

A.  He  did  not. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  understand  him  to  be  stating  the  result  of  that  weight — 
the  figures  which  he  remembered  as  the  average  weight  ? 

A.  Yes  5  he  repeated  the  fact,  "I  weighed  them." 

Q.  The  question  is  whether  you  understood  him  to  be  stating,  when 
he  referred  to  the  weight,  the  exact  average  weight  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  the  exact  weight. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  about  that!  Did  he  leave  upon  your  mind 
the  impression  that  he  had  not  then  the  weights,  or  that  he  remem 
bered  them,  or  whether  he  was  giving  the  exact  or  the  approximate 
weights  ? 

A.  He  left  such  an  impression  that  if  I  discovered  that  they  actually 
weighed  950  pounds,  I  should  have  been  very  much  surprised. 

Q.  Upon  this  point  the  controversy  between  Professor  Marsh  and  Dr. 
Saville  is  brought  down  to  a  few  words,  Saville  saying,  "  I  said  they 
would  come  up  to  the  average  and  more,"  and  the  Professor  claiming 
that  he  said  they  would  weigh  that  precisely.  I  only  want  you  to  give 
your  best  recollection  upon  that  subject. 

A.  I  omit  the  word  "  more,"  as  I  have  said. 

Mr.  SMITH.  I  would  like  to  have  the  Bishop  state  as  to  his  habit  and 
mine  of  comparing  views,  when  we  meet,  respecting  the  integrity  and 
efficiency  of  the  administration  of  agents  for  which  both  of  us  are  re 
sponsible. 

Bishop  HARE.  Our  exchange  of  views  has  been  very  free  and  full. 
But  let  me  say  to  the  Commissioner  that  I  consider  my  responsibility 
of  a  very  modified  character. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether,  from  the  statement  of  Saville,  or  from  other 
sources,  he  has  received  anything  in  the  shape  of  presents,  or  in  any 
other  way  any  compensation  trom  any  contractor  or  any  person  inter 
ested  in  furnishing  Indian  goods  or  supplies  ? 

A.  I  have  no  information  whatsoever. 

This  ended  the  regular  examination  of  Bishop  Hare.  In  the  informal 
conversation  which  followed  he  gave  some  account  of  his  experience 
among  Indians  generally,  his  observations  as  to  their  character  and 
customs,  expressed  his  poor  opinion  of  the  "  squaw-men"  around  the 
Indian  agencies,  and  said  the  Government  should  adopt  a  firmer  policy 
in  dealing  with  the  Indians. 


618 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 
Saturday,  September  11,  1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES.  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 
Hon.  E.  A.  SMITH,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  was  also  present. 

TESTIMONY  OF  SAMUEL  WALKER. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Your  place  of  residence,  Mr.  Walker,  is  where  ? 

Answer.  Washington. 

Q.  And  your  business  is  what  ? 

A.  Clerk. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  resided  in  Washington  ? 

A.  Four  years  and  a  half. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  Agent  Saville,  of  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  never  saw  him  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  time? 

A.  I  arrived  there  on  the  9th  of  November,  1873. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  instances  of  Agent  Saville  defrauding  the 
Indians  by  withholding  from  them  provisions  which  he  charged  against 
the  Government  as  being  issued  to  them  ? 

A.  Well,  I  furnished  sworn  testimony  to  that  effect. 

Q.  Do  you  know  it  ? 

A.  I  was  never  there  at  an  issue,  but  I  furnished  testimony  to  that 
effect, 

Q.  That  is  printed  with  you  report,  is  it  not? 

A.  Yres,  sir.     I  have  a  copy  of  the  affidavit. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  it,  outside  of  the  evidence  which  you 
furnish  with  your  report — anything  of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  Of  his  keeping  back  provisions  from  the  Indians  ? 

Q.  Yes. 

A.  No,  sir;  not  of  my  own  knowledge. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  cite  us  to  any  persons  who  have  actual  knowledge 
of  such  fact,  outside  of  those  whose  statements  you  took  and  submitted 
with  your  report  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Please  to  give  us  the  names. 

A.  I  can  give  you  the  name  of  one  other  man,  Otis  W.  Johnson. 

Q.  And  how  do  you  know  that  Otis  W.  Johnson  has  any  information 
on  that  subject  ? 

A.  From  the  fact  that  he  was  an  employe  at  the  agency,  and  that 
he  told  me  he  had  the  knowledge. 

Q.  He  told  you  so  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir.  Then  there  was  another  man ;  I  won't  be  sure  of  his  name. 
He  had  been  Dr.  Daniels's  clerk,  and  knew  of  the  facts.  I  will  get  his 
name. 

Q.  He  knew  of  the  facts  of  Saville  withholding  from  the  Indians 
provisions  which  he  charged  against  the  Government  as  having  been 
issued  to  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Yrou  will  furnish  us  his  name  ? 

A.  Y"es,  sir;  I  will  furnish  you  his  name. 


619 

Q.  Did  this  man  you  speak  of,  Otis  W.  Johnson,  state  to  you  any  par 
ticular  fact  in  reference  to  the  withholding  of  supplies  by  Agent  Saville 
from  the  Indians  which  he  charged  against  the  Government  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  stated  to  you  particular  facts  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  state  to  you  what  Saville  did  with  the  supplies  which 
he  charged  to  the  Government  as  having  been  issued  to  the  Indians? 

A.  He  did  not. 

Q.  Did  he  state  what  supplies  they  were? 

A.  He  said  coffee,  sugar,  bacon,  and  flour. 

Q.  Now,  this  was  Johnson  who  told  you  this  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  state  that  Saville  did  with  them  ? 

A.  He  did  not  say. 

Q.  Did  Johnson  state  this  to  you  as  of  his  own  personal  knowledge  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  was  clerk,  and  assisted  at  the  issue.  He  had  been 
clerk  in  place  of  young  Appletou,  and  had  been  an  observer  of  opera 
tions  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Now,  what  did  he  say  ? 

A.  Well,  he  said  that  the  agent  was  issuing  to  the  Indians  supplies 
in  very  small  quantities,  and  that  those  issues  were  charged  as  full 
issues  on  the  returns. 

Q.  Is  that  all  he  said  about  it  ? 

A.  That  is  about  all,  sir;  I  could  not  remember  very  distinctly, 
because  I  did  not  use  his  testimony  myself  at  the  time. 

Q.  Why  didn't  you  use  his  testimony  yourself? 

A.  Because  I  did  not  find  sufficient  corroborative  evidence.  I  did 
not  take  the  evidence  of  any  one  man  without  corroboration ;  I  did  not 
use  the  fact  in  my  report  at  all. 

Q.  Did  he  state  what  became  of  the  supplies  that  were  not  issued  to 
the  Indians'? 

A.  ]STo,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  did  he  say  that  the  Indians  were  defrauded  out  of  any  sup- 
lies  ? 

A.  He  did  not  use  that  word. 

Q.  Well,  although  there  might  have  been  a  partial  issue  only  and  a 
full  issue  charged  at  any  particular  time,  might  not  the  same  supplies 
that  were  withheld  then  have  been  subsequently  issued  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there  is  this  point:  that  if  a  man  issues  half  a  pound 
and  charges  a  pound  on  the  return,  the  inference  is  that  there  is  a 
fraud. 

Q.  We  will  make  the  inference;  we  only  want  from  you  the  fact. 

A.  You  asked  me  in  such  a  way  that  I  could  not  explain  it  in  any 
other  manner. 

Q.  What  did  that  other  man  say  on  the  subject  ? 

A.  He  said  that  the  number  of  Indians  that  were  represented  to  be 
at  that  agency  was  vastly  overrated. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  he  had  ever  counted  the  Indians? 

A.  Yes;  he  said  he  had  counted  the  Indians,  and  their  largest  num 
ber  was  at  the  old  agency,  and  there  were  not  more  than  eight  thousand 
at  the  outside.  He  had  been  clerk  at  the  agency  at  the  time  the  In 
dians  first  came  into  the  old  agency,  the  first  great  council  that  was  held 
during  Dr.  Daniels's  administration. 

Q.  Did  you  take   his  statement  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


620 

Q.  Why  didn't  you  take  it  ? 

A.  Because  I  went  around  among  those  men  asking  for  information, 
and  if  I  found  it  strongly  corroborated,  I  used  it;  and  if  I  did  not,  I 
did  not  take  any  one  man's  statement  as  conclusive  evidence. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  find  any  corroborative  evidence  in  that  country  that 
that  man  had  ever  counted  all  the  Indians  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  take  anybody's  statement,  but  I  went  to  a  man 
who  is  lied  Cloud's  son-in-law,  who  is  well  acquainted  with  all  the  In 
dians,  and  I  told  him  my  object,  and  I  asked  him  if  he  knew  the  num 
ber  of  Indians  at  Ked  Cloud  agency.  His  name  is  Nick  Jauis.  I  sup 
posed,  from  his  long  acquaintance  with  them,  that  he  would  know  of  the 
Indians;  and  I  asked  him  about  the  different  bands,  if  he  could  tell  me, 
and  where  the  Indians  were,  and  he  did  tell  me.  I  did  not  limit  my  in 
quiries  to  him,  but  went  to  every  one  who  could  give  me  any  informa 
tion  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Did  Nick  Jariis  tell  you  that  he  had  counted  them  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  did  not  use  those  words,  but  he  gave  me  to  understand 
that  his  intimate  knowledge  with  those  bands  and  the  number  of  times 
he  was  among  them  enabled  him  to  know  exactly  what  number  was 
there.  I  have  his  statement  from  the  original  statement  I  took,  as  he 
gave  it  by  bands. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  his  statement  of  the  number  taken  since 
that  time. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  is  the  number  he  makes  it  there  ? 

A.  He  makes  it  1,290  lodges  for  the  whole  strength  of  the  Bed  Cloud 
agency,  and  he  includes  in  that  all  the  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes  who 
were  about  the  agency. 

Q.  Is  that  all  the  means  you  have  of  stating  the  number  of  Indians 
there? 

A.  I  asked  his  brother,  Autoine  Janis,  and  he  stated  the  same.  I  asked 
Marton  Gibbons,  who  has  been  acting  agent  there,  and  he  gave  the  num 
ber  as  considerably  under  that;  he  said  they  did  not  outnumber  900 
lodges. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  for  the  number  of  Indians  there  at  that  time,  or  the 
number  of  Indians  that  came  there  at  other  times  ? 

A.  I  don't  believe  I  understand  you. 

Q.  In  making  the  inquiry  did  you  inquire  of  them  the  number  of  In 
dians  that  were  within-  reach  of  the  agency  to.  get  their  supplies  there 
at  that  particular  time,  or  did  you  have  reference  to  any  other  time? 

A.  I  referred  to  all  the  Indians  that  came  to  lied  Cloud  agency,  be 
longing  to  Eed  Cloud's  band  or  any  other,  and  including  the  northern 
Cheyeunes  and  Arapahoes.  I  will  explain  here,  that  before  going  out 
I  was  pretty  well  acquainted  with  some  of  the  affairs  of  the  agency,  such 
as  came  to  the  office  of  the  Board — accounts  and  returns. 

Q.  What  Board  do  you  mean  ? 

A.  The  Board  of  Indian  commissioners. 

Q.  You  were  secretary  of  that  Board  '? 

A.  I  was  clerk  and  acting  secretary  very  frequently. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  say  that  in  November,  1874,  the  census  of  Indians 
taken  under  the  direction  of  the  agent  there  was  not  correctly  taken  ? 

A.  I  was  not  there.  I  don't  know  anything  about  it.  I  was  not  in 
the  service  at  all  at  that  time.  I  am  talking  about  November,  1873  ; 
that  is  the  time  I  was  there  ;  that  is  the  time  I  am  particularly  interested 
in. 


621 

Q.  You  cannot  say,  then,  whether  the  census  of  the  Indians  taken  in 
November,  1874,  was  correct  or  not  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  it  was,  except  from  memory,  without  referring 
to  the  records.  I  have  my  opinion  about  it,  if  you  want  that. 

Q.  I  only  want  to  know  what  you  know  about  this  matter. 

A.  I  was  not  there  in  1874.  I  was  there  in  1873.  I  am  willing  to 
inform  you  about  that. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if,  in  November,  1874,  you  knew  that  the  census  of  the 
Indians  taken  at  that  time  was  not  correct  ? 

A.  As  I  stated  before,  I  don't  know  what  that  census  was,  without 
reference  to  the  report.  After  looking  at  that,  I  would  tell  you  what  I 
thought  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  thing  about  it  ?    That  is  the  question. 

A.  I  don't  see  why  you  should  question  me  about  the  census  of  1874, 
when  I  was  not  there.  I  do  not  think  you  have  a  right  to  make  me  an 
swer  questions  about  the  time  I  was  there. 

Q.  If  I  ask  you  a  question  concerning  something  that  you  don't  know 
anything  about,  it  won't  take  you  long  to  answer  it. 

A.  I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Governor,  in  order  to  let  the  witness  give  an  opinion,  it 
is  fair  to  state  to  him  that  there  were  13,000  Indians  there  in  1874. 

WITNESS.  Understand  me ;  I  stated  that  I  did  not  know  anything 
about  what  took  place  in  1874,  because  I  was  not  there.  I  don't  know 
what  was  done. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  said,  however,  if  you  knew  the  number,  you  could  give  an 
opinion  a? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  All  I  wanted  was,  whether  you  knew  anything  about  the  correct 
ness  of  that  census  which  was  taken  in  1874. 

A.  If  it  was  13,000, 1  believe  the  number  was  vastly  overrated. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  tell  us  what  you  know. 

A.  Well,  I  know  that  the  number  of  Indians,  from  the  best  informa 
tion  that  could  be  got  there,  including  those  men  who  were  familiar  with 
the  subject 

Q.  When? 

A.  1873. 

Q.  What  was  the  number  in  1874  ? 

A.  Unless  you  can  account  for  the  increase  in  some  other  way  than 
by  natural  laws,  you  cannot  show  an  increase  of  four  thousand  in  a  year. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  that  some  other  Indians  may  have  come  to  the  agen 
cies  in  1874  who  were  not  there  in  1873  ? 

A.  It  is  possible. 

Q.  Then  there  might  have  been  more  Indians  there  at  that  agency  in 
1874  than  in  1873  ? 

A.  It  is  possible;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  then,  what  is  your  reason  for  thinking  they  were  overesti 
mated  ? 

A.  My  reason  is  this:  that  when  I  was  at  the  agency  the  previous 
year,  from  all  sources  of  information — everybody  I  could  talk  with  who 
was  at  all  acquainted  with  the  affairs — I  estimated  the  lodges  to  be  not 
exceeding  eleven  hundred. 


622 

Q.  Where? 

A.  At  Ked  Cloud  agency ;  and  of  course,  unless  there  is  some  clear 
way  of  accounting  for  the  increase,  I  would  be  inclined  to  think  that 
thirteen  thousand  was  a  very  great  overestimate.  Among  other  gen 
tlemen  with  whom  I  was  talking  on  the  subject  was  Gen.  John  E. 
Smith,  who  was  then  commanding  at  Fort  Laramie  ;  also  Jules  Ecoffee ; 
and  Thomas  Ried,  who  was  then  sub-agent  for  the  Arapahoes  and  Chey- 
ennes. 

Q.  Did  you  take  their  affidavits  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  accompany  your  report  ? 

A.  They  are  filed  in  the  Interior  Department. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  They  are  not  printed  with  your  report  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Are  those  all  the  reasons  you  have  for  believing  that  the  census 
taken  there  in  November,  1874,  was  fraudulent  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  The  number  of  Sioux  given  in  the  report  of  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Any  published  reports  are  within  our  reach. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  want  to  learn  Mr.  Walker's  reasons  for  thinking  that  that  census 
taken  there  in  1874  was  fraudulent. 

A.  On  what  report  of  mine  are  you  examining  me  as  to  the  number 
in  1874  ? 

Q.  1  am  not  examining  you  with  reference  to  anything  at  all  in  your 
report. 

A.  Or  any  other  statement  ? 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  did  not  believe  that  the  census  of  the  Indians 
taken  in  November,  1874,  was  correct.  I  was  asking  you  for  your  reasons 
for  so  believing.  Now,  I  would  like  to  have  all  your  reasons. 

A.  I  gave  them  all.  I  was  going  to  add  one  more,  but  it  was  con 
nected  with  a  report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  It  is  this: 
If  you  will  take  the  number  of  those  Indians  reported  on  the  pro  vision - 
returns  and  compare  it  with  the  report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  you  will  find  it  is  nearly  double. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  For  what  year  ? 

A.  1873  and  J874;  those  two  years.  If  you  compare  the  provision- 
returns  in  the  Interior  Department  with  the  report  of  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  laid  before  Congress,  of  the  number  of  Indians  in  his 
care  during  that  year,  you  will  find  that  the  number  rationed  largely 
exceeds  the  number  reported  to  be  at  the  agency  by  his  own  report. 
For  instance,  in  3873  Agent  Saville  reported,  November  8,  that  he  had 
issued  to  2,419  lodges. 

Q.  What  are  you  reading  from  ? 

A.  My  report,  sir. 

Q.  The  question  I  want  to  have  answered  is  ^yhether  you  are  reading 
from  a  published  document? 

A.  I  ain  giving  the  instances  ? 

Q.  If  you  are  reading  from  a  copy  of  an  official  report,  that  is  all  I 
want.  What  report  are  you  reading  from  ? 


623 

A.  My  report  to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  of  December, 
1873. 

Q.  And  you  are  quoting  from  an  extract  from  Dr.  Saville's  report J? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  am  quoting  from  an  extract  from  Dr.  Saville's  provis- 
sion-returns  for  that  month.  On  November  8  he  reported  that  he  is 
sued  to  2,419  lodges,  or  about  16,933  Indians. 

Q.  Is  that  his  language,  all  of  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  this  is  taken  from  his  returns. 

Q.  Does  he  make  the  computation  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  his  returns  are  on  file  in  the  Indian  Office. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  go  on. 

A.  The  report  for  that  year  does  not  show  over  9,000  Indians. 

Q.  What  report? 

A.  The  report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  which  is  made 
up  from  his. 

Q.  Does  not  the  number  of  Indians  at  these  agencies  vary  at  different 
times '? 

A.  It  may,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  the  case  that  at  Eed  Cloud,  in  the  winter,  there  come 
down  from  the  North,  from  the  Big  Horn  country,  a  great  many  Indians 
that  are  not  about  the  agency  and  do  not  receive  supplies  during  the 
summer  ? 

A.  I  went  into  that  subject,  too. 

Q.  Is  not  that  the  case  ? 

A.  Yes,  but  not  to  the  extent  that  is  represented. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  extent  of  it  ? 

A.  I  learned  at  Eed  Cloud  agency — I  was  told  there  that  the  north 
ern  Indians  nearly  all  came  there;  I  was  told  by  Mr.  Appleton,  who  was 
acting  agent. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you  ? 

A.  That  nearly  all  the  northern  Indians  came  there. 

Q.  To  Eed  Cloud  agency? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  Then  1  went  to  Whetstone  agency,  and  they  said  virtually 
the  same  thing  there — that  the  greater  portion  of  the  northern  Indians 
came  to  that  agency,  and  they  gave  as  a  reason  that  it  was  near  to  the 
Black  Hills;  that  the  Indians  did  most  of  their  trading  of  skins  there.  I 
met  a  chief  there  who  represented  himself  as  Lone  Horn.  He  showed  me 
papers  from  Army  officers  stating  the  fact  he  was  Lone  Horn — certificates 
of  good  character  that  he  carries  round  with  him,  and  I  asked  him  how 
many  lodges  he  had  there  at  Whetstone  agency.  He  was  chief  of  the 
Minneconjoux,  who  constituted  the  larger  portion  of  the  northern  In 
dians.  He  represented  that  he  had  about  100  lodges  there,  and  that 
there  were  somewhere  between  the  Black  Hills  and  the  Whetstone 
agency  nearly  200  lodges  more  that  were  coming  in  for  the  winter  by 
slow  and  easy  stages,  on  account  of  the  squaws  and  papooses  ;  and  they 
were  hunting  some  at  the  same  time.  I  asked  him,  too,  if  there  were  any 
other  Indians  up  there  in  the  Hills,  and  he  said,  no,  there  was  not,  and 
that,  when  the  Minneconjoux  had  left  the  Hills,  there  would  be  no  other 
Indians  there  during  the  winter.  So  that  reduced  the  northern  Indians 
to  about  300  lodges,  taking  an  Indian's  view  of  the  question.  Now,  if 
there  were  only  300  lodges  of  those  in  addition  to  the  young  men  of  the 
Eed  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  and  young  warriors,  that  of  course  re 
duces  the  number  by  which  those  agencies  would  be  increased,  to  about 
1,(JOJ.  After  you  account  for  the  Minneconjoux,  2,100,  say,  allowing 


624 

seven  to  a  lodge,  the  simultaneous  increase  of  both  to  about  14,000  can 
not  be  accounted  for  upon  any  satisfactory  basis. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Supposing  you  had  the  facts  ? 

A.  Supposing  you  had  the  facts. 

Q.  Supposing  you  did  not  have  the  facts  ? 

A.  I  tried  to  get  at  every  source  of  information. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  believe  what  Lone  Horn  told  you  ? 

A.  As  to  the  number  of  his  lodges  ? 

Q.  Did  you  believe  him  ? 

A.  Yes  •  I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  believe  all  that  he  told  you ? 

A.  Yes ;  I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  all  that  every  Inndian  tells  you  ? 

A.  I  did  not  have  a  chance  to  talk  with  them.  I  declined  to  talk  with 
the  Indians  as  much  as  possible. 

Q.  Why  did  you  decline  to  talk  with  the  Indians  ? 

A.  Because  my  duty  was  to  investigate  the  affairs  of  the  agencies. 
I  had  no  authority  to  make  them  any  promises,  and  had  no  business 
with  them  except  to  ask  some  questions.  If  they  answered  truthfully, 
all  right.  And  you  must  remember  this,  which  is  conceded  by  all,  that 
when  Indians  give  you  estimates  of  their  numbers,  they  don't  give  you 
the  smallest  number ;  so  when  I  repeat  Lone  Horn's  words,  I  do  not 
give  you  the  smallest  number  of  the  Minneconjoux. 

Q.  Have  you  been  among  the  Indians  a  good  deal  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Talked  with  a  good  many  of  them  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  generally  believe  what  they  told  you? 

A.  Not  all. 

Q.  What  Indian  tribes  did  you  have  experience  among  besides  the 
Sioux  f 

A.  I  have  not  had  any  experience  among  the  Sioux.  The  only  time  I 
was  at  a  Sioux  agency  was  when  I  went  on  business  there.  I  saw  the 
Southern  Oheyenues  and  the  Kiowas  and  Arapahoes. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  at  Bed  Cloud  agency ? 

A.  I  got  there  on  the  9th  of  November;  staid  there  four  days  ;  then 
went  to  Whetstone.  I  left  Bed  Cloud  agency  on  the  morning  of  No 
vember  12  ;  then  I  went  to  Whetstone. 

Q.  What  date  did  you  arrive  there  ? 

A.  The  same  day,  somewhere  about  3  o'clock,  between  3  and  4  o'clock 
in  the  afternoon. 

Q.  What  time  of  day  did  you  leave  Red  Cloud  ? 

A.  In  the  morning,  immediately  after  breakfast, 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  at  Whetstone  ? 

Q.  I  left  Whetstone  on  the  17th. 

Q.  Then  you  were  there  four  days  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  go  ? 

A.  I  went  back  to  Bed  Cloud. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there,  then  ? 

A.  Two  days. 

Q.  From  there,  \\here  did  yoLi  go? 

A.  To  Cheyenne. 


625 

Q.  Now,  of  the  statements  that  were  roade  to  you  in  regard  to  the  num 
ber  of  Indians  that  came  in  there  to  Eed  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agen 
cies,  which  one  of  them  do  you  believe  ? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  that  I  accepted  any  particular  opinion.  I 
formed  no  definite  conclusion  about  it  at  all.  I  had  a  conversation  with 
General  Smith  at  the  Washington  House  here,  but  I  took  the  figures 
given  to  me  and  used  them  as  nearly  as  possible  to  arrive  at  a  correct  con 
clusion. 

Q.  What  figures  do  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  Nick  Janis's,  for  instance,  and  those  of  Jules  Ecoffee. 

Q.  Then  you  based  your  conclusion  as  to  the  number  of  Indians  there 
upon  the  statements  made  to  you  by  Jules  Ecoffee,  General  Smith, 
and  Nick  Janis  ? 

A.  And  Antoine  Janis,  Martin  Gibbons,  and  the  clerk  of  Dr.  Daniels. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  don't  understand  you  to  say  you  received  any  figures  from  General 
Smith,  but  after  a  conversation  with  him  you  came  to  a  conclusion  ? 

A.  I  may  not  have  said  figures  5  but  his  opinion  of  the  number  after 
he  came  to  Washington. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  It  is  not  claimed  that  General  Smith  made  an  estimate 
of  the  different  tribes. 

WITNESS.  He  mentioned  a  definite  number  of  the  Indians.  He  stated 
they  claimed  to  have  about  8,000  at  the  agency. 

Q.  During  the  four  days  you  were  at  Eed  Cloud,  how  many  hours  did 
you  devote  to  the  examination  of  affairs  there  ? 

A.  All  the  time,  from  daylight  until  9  o'clock  at  night. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  during  that  time  ? 

A.  Examining  the  employes,  examining  the  accounts,  talking  to  Apple- 
ton  and  the  clerk,  and  everybody,  from  the  agent  down  — everybody  who 
was  not  too  busy  to  be  examined. 

Q.  Did  you  take  their  statements  in  writing  ? 

A.  No,  sir:  some  of  them  I  did,  and  some  of  them  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  base  your  conclusion  upon  any  portion  of  your  informa 
tion  that  was  not  in  writing! 

A.  Yes,  sir,  of  course ;  I  had  to  base  my  conclusion  in  a  great  measure 
upon  what  was  not  in  writing.  There  was  nobody  there  who  could  ad 
minister  an  oath,  and  I  had  to  take  statements,  and  if  I  found  them  cor 
roborated,  I  used  them  $  if  I  did  not  find  them  corroborated,  I  would 
not. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  notice  that  you  state  in  your  report,  that  there  was  some  corn 
bought  there  for  which  the  price  paid  was  above  the  market  price  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  arrived  at  your  conclusion  by  the  process  which  you  state  in 
your  report,  of  talking  with  men  who  offered  to  furnish  it  for  less  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  by  examining  the  market-rates ;  going  to  a  dealer  in  the 
article  and  asking  wlfat  the  value  of  it  was  then  at  retail,  without  stat 
ing  my  object  at  all. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  cost  of  hauling  100  pounds  of  corn  from  Chey 
enne  to  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  that  is  the  way  I  arrived  at  the  value  of  corn  there. 
McCann  was  paid  $3.71. 

Q.  What  can  they  be  hauled  from  there  for  ? 

A.  I  am  only  quoting  from  the  price  of  corn  at  Cheyenne. 
40  I  F 


62G 

Q.  But  tlie  contract  for  delivering  corn  was  so  much  per  hundred 
pounds  delivered  at  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  had  the  corn  delivered  at 
Cheyenne  at  $2.26§  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Now,  when  you  speak  of  the  market-price  of  corn  at  Cheyenne  as 
being  less  than  this,  do  you  mean  the  market-price  when  you  were  at 
Cheyenne,  or  the  market-price  at  the  time  this  contract  was  made  for 
the  corn  ? 

A.  The  market-price  at  the  time  I  was  there.  I  made  inquiries  also  as 
to  the  price  paid  at  the  time  before  that. 

Q.  Well,  what  was  the  market-price  at  Cheyenne  at  the  time  this  con 
tract  was  made  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  now,  from  memory. 

Q.  I  see  you  state  in  your  report  that  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to 
the  old  lied  Cloud  agency,  by  the  route  usually  traveled  by  heavy 
trains,  is  only  ninety  miles  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  arrive  at  that  ? 

A.  J  ai rived  at  that  by  the  testimony  of  men  who  were  performing  the 
contract  for  McCann  who  was  that  year  contractor.  I  also  got  it  from 
livery-stable  keepers  in  Cheyenne ;  but,  as  they  might  have  been  inter 
ested  persons,  we  took  the  evidence  of  McCann's  own  men  who  were  doing 
the  work,  so  that  we  could  not  be  accused  of  being  prejudiced  by  unfair 
evidence.  I  took  their  evidence,  and  the  testimony  of  General  Smith, 
and  the  ambulance-driver  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  who  knew  the  road 
"better  than  anybody  there,  having  traveled  it  often. 

Q.  You  say  in  your  report  that  McCann  charged  the  Government  for 
one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles. 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  was  paid  for  one  hundred  and  thirty-two 
miles  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  H  e  wras  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  his  contract  that  year  for  freighting  was  so 
much  per  hundred  miles,  or  for  the  whole  distance  9 

A.  The  contract  for  the  first  part  of  the  year  was  for  the  distance  from 
Cheyenne  to  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Had  the  change  been  made  at  the  time  you  were  there  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  at  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  after  the  removal  of  the  agency,  there  was  a  new  con 
tract  for  freighting.  The  first  contract  was  at  the  rate  of  $  L.20  per  hun 
dred  pounds  per  hundred  miles ;  the  new  contract  was  at  the  rate  of 
$1.75  per  hundred  pounds  per  hundred  miles $  and  that  contract  stated 
the  distance  to  be  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles.  That  contract  was 
also  let  without  advertisement,  and  it  was  disapproved  by  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  thing  about  the  contract  for  removing  the  ageuy 
from  the  old  Eed  Cloud  agency  to  the  new  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  a  couple  of  documents  here  about  it.  McCann 
moved  that  agency  ;  there  was  no  contract  for  it  at  all.  There  was  a 
kind  of  partial  contract ;  it  allowed  him  $2.50  a  day  per  yoke  for  the 
animals  used. 


627 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  from  ? 

A.  I  got  this  from  a  copy  of  the  voucher  of  ^IcOann's,  which  he 
presented  for  payment,  for  removing  the  old  agency ;  he  presented  it  at 
the  Indian  Office,  and  it  was  approved  there — a  voucher  for  the  service 
of  fifty  teams,  of  five  yoke  of  cattle  each,  for  twenty  days,  at  $2.50  per 
day  for  each  yoke  of  cattle  employed.  The  total  was  $14,375.  It  was 
sent  to  the  Indian  Office  and  approved  there,  then  sent  to  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  for  their  action. 

Q.  What  was  the  action  of  the  Board  ? 

A.  Disapproved  it,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  amount  of  time  employed,  further 
than  the  voucher  shows  ? 

A.  Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  What  personal  knowledge  have  you,  or  what  other  knowledge  have 
you? 

A.  I  have  an  official  letter  of  the  agent  who  superintended  the  re 
moval. 

Q.  What  is  the  name? 

A.  J.  W.  Daniels. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  letter  ? 

A.  It  was  addressed  to  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville  by  J.  W.  Daniels,  the  prede 
cessor  of  Dr.  Saville,  and  during  whose  administration  the  work  was 
performed. 

Q.  That  is  a  copy  you  made  from  a  copy  in  the  office  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  this  fact :  There  is  a 
difference  between  the  statement  that  Agent  Daniels  makes  and  the 
voucher  that  Saville  certifies  to.  In  Dr.  Daniels's  official  report,  he  only 
repoits  thirty  ox-teams,  of  five  yoke  each,  while  Saville  gives  his  cer 
tificates  for  fifty  teams,  of  five  yoke  each.  Besides  the  ox-teams  in  Dr. 
Saville's  report,  there  are  eleven  horse  or  mule  teams,  some  of  them  with 
two  mules,  and  some  with  four  mules. 

Q.  Does  Daniels  certify  to  any  mule-teams? 

A.  No,  sir ;  but  ox-teams.     Here  are  the  two  certificates : 

Inspector  Daniels'  certificate. 

CHEYENNE,  WYOMING  TERRITORY,  August  27,  1873. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  send  you  a  statement  of  the  number  of  teams  employed  in  the  removal  of 
the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  their  time,  prior  to  my  leaving  the  agency,  on  the  19th  instant. 
D.  J.  McCann,  forCompton,  had  11  teams,  5  yoke. 
Charles  Hecht  had  10  teams,  5  yoke. 
L.  Richards  had  4  teams,  5  yoke. 
John  Free!  had  5  teams  5  yoke. 
Nic.  Janis,  one  (1)  4-mule  team. 
Paul  Montale,  one  (1)  2-horse  team. 
Frank  Salway,  one  ( 1 )  2-horse  team. 
Pete  Bissinette,  one  (1)  2-horse  team. 
L.  Langram,  one  (1)  2-horse  team. 
John  Davidson  had  one  (1)  2-horse  team. 
Morrison  had  one  (1)  2  horse  team. 
John  Wilson  had  one  (I)  2-horse  team. 
W.  R.  Jones  had  one  (1)  4-mule  team. 
C.' Janis  had  2  (2)  2-horse  teams. 

First  trip :  Compton,  Hecht,  and  Richards  loaded  with  supplies,  mill  and  agency  material, 
on  the  29th  July,  and  unloaded  at  the  new  agency  August  5, 1873. 

Jones  loaded  the  4th  of  August  with  herder's  camp  and  office  furniture,  and  unloaded  the 
7th  instant. 


628 

John  Freel  loaded  August  5th  with  flour,  and  unloaded  the  12th  instant. 
Comptou,  second  trip,  loaded  the  llth  of  August  with  flour,  and  unloaded  the   18th  in 
stant. 

Richards,  second  trip,  loaded  the  llth  August  with  Indians  and  office  furniture,  and  un 
loaded  the  18th  instant. 

N.  Janis,  Montale,  Salway,  Bissinette,  Zangraw,  C.  Janis,  Davidson,  Morrison,  and  Wil 
son  loaded  with  Indians  the  5th  of  August,  and  unloaded  the  9th  instant. 
Hecht  unloaded  the  three  teams  with  the  mill  on  the  6th  of  August. 
Jones  was  to  receive  $7.50  per  day  for  going  over. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 
Dr,  J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian 


Agent  Seville's  certificate. 
D.  J.  McCann  : 

For  the  service  of  fifty  (50)  teams,  of  five  (5)  yoke  of  cattle  each,  for  twenty- 
three  days,  from  July  28, 1873,  to  August  19,  1873,,  both  days  inclusive,  at  two 

dollars  and  fifty  cents  ($2.50)  per  day,  for  each  yoke  of  cattle  employed $14,  375  00 

I  certify  on  honor  that  the  above-mentioned  number  of  teams  were  employed  for  the  time 
specified  ;  that  the  exigencies  of  the  service  employed  the  employment  of  the  same,  in  the 
removal  of  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency  from  its  former  location  on  the  Platte  River  to  its 
present  location  on  the  White  River  ;  that  I  have  not  paid  any  portion  of  the  amount ;  and 
that  there  is  due  D.  J.  McCann  therefor  the  sum  of  fourteen  thousand  three  hundred  and 
seventy-five  dollars.  ($14,375.00.) 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
One  voucher  retained  in  Indian  Office. 

JANUARY  20,  1874. 

Q.  Had  your  Board,  at  the  time  the  voucher  was  presented,  any  knowl 
edge  of  the  contract  for  the  removal  of  the  agency — any  official  infor 
mation  about  it  ? 

A.  I  am  not  aware  that  they  had. 

Q.  Was  it  not  the  practice  of  the  Board  to  reject  such  vouchers  as 
related  to  matters  of  which  they  had  no  official  knowledge  or  notice  J? 

A.  The  practice  of  the  Boarj  to  reject  all  accounts  ? 

Q.  Was  it  not  a  practice  of  your  Board  to  reject  vouchers  in  all  cases 
concerning  which  they  had  not  official  information  ;  that  is  to  say.  would 
they  pass  a  voucher  relating  to  a  contract  of  which  they  had  not  a  copy 
in  their  office  J? 

A.  They  never  kept  copies,  but  they  would  not  pass  the  voucher  for 
a  contract  that  was  illegally  let. 

Q.  Now,  1  again  recur  to  the  question  whether  they  wTould  pass  a 
voucher  in  any  case  where  they  had  not  notice  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  that  I  understand  yon  distinctly. 

Q.  Then,  would  they  reject  a  voucher  in  the  case  where  a  contract  had 
not  been  let  by  advertisement  ?  Was  that  their  practice  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  you  say  illegally  let,  you  mean  let  without  advertise 
ment  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  assume  that  all  contracts  let  by  the  Interior  Department 
which  were  not  made  upon  advertisinent  to  be  illegal? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not. 

Q.  Well,  now,  the  removal  of  the  agency  was  suddenly  made,  was  it 

DOtf 

A.  Yres,  sir. 

Q.  AiKl  made  in  pursuance  of  no  express  provisions  of  the  statute  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  any. 


629 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  legal  provision  requiring  advertisement  for 
proposals  to  do  that  work  ? 

A.  No. 

Q.  Did  there  not  arise  a  controversy  between  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  and  your  Board  as  to  whether  they  had  a  right  to  make 
that  advertisement  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  a  different  affair. 

Q.  I  mean  concerning  this  removal  ? 

A.  It  was  never  presented  to  the  Board. 

Q.  Was  it  never  claimed,  on  the  part  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners,  that  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  had  not  a  right  to 
make  that  contract  without  advertisement  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  what  contract  you  refer  to. 

Q.  The  contract  for  the  removal  of  the  agency. 

A.  They  did  not  object  to  the  contract  at  all,  as  I  understood  it. 

Q.  Was  that  voucher  rejected  because  it  was  made  in  pursuance  of 
any  legal  contract,  or  because  the  amount  was  wrong  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you  from  memory ;  but  the  face  of  the  voucher 
shows  it  is  wrong. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  shows  that  Agent  Saville  certifies  for  fifty  ox-teams 
being  employed  when  there  were  only  thirty. 

Q.  Your  statement  that  it  is  wrong  is  based  upon  the  fact  that  Dr. 
Saville's  certificate  differs  from  the  letter  of  Dr.  Daniels  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Upon  the  presentation  of  those  two  papers  to  your  Board  the  claim 
was  rejected  I 

A.  I  don't  say  that  that  was  the  cause  of  it ;  but  I  say  there  are  the 
facts  that  Dr.  Daniels  removed  the  agency  and  certified  to  the  number 
of  teams  that  were  used,  while  Dr.  Saville  gave  a  receipt  for  a  different 
number  than  the  agent  who  did  the  work. 

Q.  And  upon  that  fact  your  Board  rejected  the  claim  ? 

A.  I  cannot  tell  you  what  the  action  of  the  Board  was  without  seeing 
the  record. 

Q.  Could  not  you  remember  the  action  of  the  Board  ? 

A.  I  cannot  remember  the  action  of  the  Board. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  fact  which  came  before  your  Board  prior 
to  its  rejection  1 

A.  I  could  not  tell  you  from  memory.  If  you  will  let  me  have  access 
to  the  records  of  the  Board,  I  will  give  you  all  the  history  of  it.  I  have 
some  of  them  here. 

Q.  You  don't  know  from  any  information  you  derived  at  the  time  or 
subsequently  what  was  the  final  conclusion  as  to  the  truth  of  who  was 
right  and  who  was  wrong  ? 

A.  I  had  information  then  that  I  did  not  use,  and  I  don't  care  to  use 
it  now. 

Q.  I  only  ask  you  if  you  afterward  ascertained  which  of  those  two 
agents  was  correct,  Saville  or  Daniels. 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  now  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not  5  but  I  believe  Dr.  Daniels  was,  because  he  did 
the  work.  There  are  the  documents ;  they  speak  for  themselves. 

By  Mr.  EAULKNEK  : 

Q.  Are  you  unable  to  state  whether  those  accounts  have  been  ad 
justed  and  paid? 


630 

A.  I  have  no  information  as  to  the  action  of  the  Board  after  disap 
proving  them.  They  were  not  officially  informed  of  the  subsequent 
action. 

Q.  You  are  not  able  to  state  whether  those  accounts  were  subse 
quently  paid  or  not '? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  price  of  teams  per  day  in  that 
country1? 

A.  No,  sir ;  except  what  is  contained  in  the  contract  of  Charles 
Hecht  with  D.  J.  McCann. 

Q.  What  is  that  report  you  were  referring  to  ? 

A.  It  is  a  congressional  report  of  the  Forty-third  Congress,  first  ses 
sion,  number  778,  page  267.  In  that  McCaun  agrees  to  pay  Hecht  86.50 
per  day  for  each  team  of  five  yokes  of  oxen,  or  about  $1.30  per  yoke. 

Q.  Is  that  all  the  knowledge  you  have  upon  the  subject  of  prices 
there  ? 

A.  I  do  not  go  any  further;  that  furnishes  evidence  of  the  price  the 
work  was  done  for.  It  is  between  the  contractor  and  his  sub-contractor. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  correspondence  that  occurred  between  your 
Board  and  Dr.  Daniels,  or  anybody  else  and  Dr.  Daniels,  with  reference 
to  the  removing  of  this  agency,  containing  any  proposals  on  the  part  of 
other  persons  to  do  the  work  ? 

Q.  Our  Board  never  communicated  directly  with  the  agents  in  advance 
of  any  action  of  the  Indian  Office.  There  was  no  practice  made  of  inter 
fering  with  the  working  of  the  Indian  Office  at  all. 

Q.  Subsequently  did  your  Board  have  information  of  proposals  made 
by  anybody  else  to  Dr.  Daniels  to  remove  this  agency  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  without  reference  to  our  records. 

Q.  You  don't  recall  any  ? 

A.  There  are  a  great  many  transactions  in  the  Office,  you  must  remem 
ber,  and  I  was  the  only  clerk  there,  and  I  could  not  remember  them  all. 
There  is  Daniels's  evidence. 

Q.  Now,  to  return  for  a  moment  to  the  subject  of  your  investigation 
at  l\ed  Cloud  :  You  said  that  you  were  there  four  days  ? 

A.  I  suppose  I  was  there  six  days  in  all ;  two  after  I  came  back  from 
Whetstone. 

Q.  In  your  report  you  state  you  remained  there  two  days  longer  than 
you  would  otherwise  have  done,  waiting  for  Mr.  Bosler  to  bring  in  his 
accounts. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  the  time  necessary  for  your  investigation  there  was  only 
four  days  ? 

A.  That  is  all,  sir ;  that  is,  I  had  gone  nearly  as  far  as  I  could  prop 
erly,  without  any  aid,  to  get  sworn  affidavits  or  anything  of  that  kind  ; 
and  as  I  had  plenty  of  business  in  Washington,  I  did  not  want  to  use 
more  time  there  at  the  agency  than  was  necessary. 

Q.  In  this  printed  copy  of  your  report  there  are  divisions  by  head 
lines;  for  instance,  here  is  one  :  "  Indians  cheated  out  of  whole  issues.77 
Is  that  a  part  of  the  report  ? 

Q.  Not  at  all $  that  is  put  in  by  whoever  printed  this  report.  My 
original  report  did  not  contain  that  at  all. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  make  that  charge  in  your  report  ? 

A.  I  stated  the  facts  as  I  found  them.  1  furnished  testimony  on  the 
subject. 


631 

Q.  Here  is  another  note  of  that  kind  :  u  False  and  fraudulent  receipts 
for  beef."  That  is  put  in  in  the  same  way,  is  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  made  the  statement  "  false  and  fraudulent,"  but  I  had 
nothing  to  do  with  those  headings. 

Q.  You  state  there  that  the  agent  did  not  receive  647  head  of  cattle 
on  the  first  of  October,  nor  633  head  on  the  15th  of  October  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  agent  received  these  cattle  on  any  other  days,  but 
dated  his  receipts  on  the  1st  and  15th,  in  pursuance  of  a  custom,  then 
your  conclusion  here  that  they  would  be  fraudulent  would  not  be  cor 
rect,  would  it  ? 

A.  Undoubtedly,  sir ;  undoubtedly  my  statement  is  that  he  did  not 
receive  the  cattle,  especially  the  reported  receipt  of  the  loth. 

Q.  Your  statement  is  that  he  did  not  receive  them  at  all  at  any  time  ? 

A.  Part  of  them  he  did,  but  he  did  not  receive  on  the  15th  of  October, 
or  at  any  time,  a  lot  of  633  head  of  cattle. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  say  that,  between  the  1st  and  15th,  he  did  not  re 
ceive  as  many  as  647  head  of  cattle  "I 

A.  I  say,  between  the  1st  and  15th,  he  did  not  receive  1,280  head  of 
cattle  ? 

Q.  Will  you  say  that  before  the  15th — at  no  time  before  the  15th,  he 
received  in  different  lots  the  aggregate  of  that  number  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  your  means  of  information  on  the  subject  ? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  his  official  receipt  shows  that  he  received  647 
head  on  the  first  of  October.  We  will  take  that  as  basis.  I  say  I  do 
not  believe  he  received  them. 

Q.  Why  don't  you  believe  it  ? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  the  chief  herder  told  me  that  on  the  night  of  the 
30th  of  September,  the  herd  of  cattle  which  was  brought  up  for  October 
1st  was  stampeded,  and  that  only  enough  were  recovered  to  make  the 
issue  of  the  1st  of  October.  Subsequently  they  are  said  to  have  made 
an  issue  on  the  8th. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  from  the  herder  whether  these  cattle  had  been  re 
ceived  by  the  agent  before  the  stampede,  or  did  they  stampede  after  the 
agent  received  them  ? 

A.  They  were  sent  out  for  him  to  receive  them,  he  said,  late  at  night, 
and  he  refused  to  receive  them,  because  he  could  not  count  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  agent  had  received  them  from  the  con 
tractor  or  not  ? 

A.  I  can  only  make  statements  from  the  testimony  I  got. 

Q.  Exactly.  I  asked  you  the  question  if  you  knew  whether  the  agent 
had  received  them  from  the  contractor  before  the  stampede  or  not  ? 

A.  I  could  not  tell. 

Q.  You  don't  know  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now  go  on  with  the  grounds  of  your  belief  that  he  did  not  receive 
the  cattle  that  he  receipted  for. 

A.  After  the  8th  of  October,  1873,  there  were  no  cattle  at  the  agency 
at  all. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  ? 

A.  From  the  testimony  of  the  acting  agent ;  and  there  is  other  testi 
mony  on  file  with  Bishop  Hare's  report.  There  were  no  cattle  then  at 
the  agency,  and  there  was  no  issue  to  the  Indians  from  the  8th  of  Oc 
tober  until  the  21st.  There  was  no  herd  at  the  agency  at  all  between 
those  dates;  consequently  there  was  no  issue  on  the  15th. 


632 

By  Mr.  HAKRIS  : 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  the  evidence  that  there  was  no  herd  there? 

A.  In  the  first  place  I  have  a  copy  of  an  affidavit  prepared  by  the 
acting  agent  for  the  chief  herder  to  swear  to.  It  is  referred  to  in  my 
report.  To  make  the  matter  sure,  you  will  find  it  over  Saville's  own 
name  in  Bishop  Hare's  report. 

Q.  I  find  that  he  states  that  he  did  have  a  herd.  In  his  reply  to  your 
report,  he  says,  "  No  issues  were  omitted  in  October,  as  there  were  four 
issues  in  that  mouth  at  that  time,  on  the  1st,  8th,  21st  and  23d,  only 
that  the  issue  of  the  15th  was  postponed  to  the  21st ;  my  reasons  for 
which  postponement  appear  in  my  report  of  that  month,  to  which  I 
respectfully  refer." 

A.  I  say  he  made  no  issue  between  the  8th  and  21st,  but  he  says  he 
received  G33  head  on  the  loth.  You  will  find  in  his  own  testimony  that 
he  had  no  cattle  at  the  agency  from  the  8th  of  October  to  the  21st 

Q.  He  does  not  say  so.  He  says  :  u  The  papers  of  the  agency  do  not 
show  that  there  was,  on  the  1st  of  October,  on  hand  17,914  pounds  of 
beef,  but  did  show  on  hand  11,068 ;  that  during  that  month  there  were 
received,  on  the  1st  day  of  October,  647  head,  averaging  1,063  pounds 
each,  and  on  the  15th  of  October,  633  head,  averaging  1,043  pounds 
each.  That  on  the  1st  day  of  October  I  did  not  have  on  hand  sixty  head 
of  beeves,  but  only  eleven,  for  which  receipts  were  given,  which  eleven 
added  to  1,280,  would  amount  to  1,291,  of  which  I  issued  1,212  head 
during  the  month  of  October,  leaving  79  head,  which  I  had  on  hand  on 
the  31st  day  of  October,  less  67  lost  and  killed  by  the  Indians  out  of  my 
herd  without  authority." 

A.  But  at  the  bottom  of  the  page  he  says  :  u  On  the  1st  of  October 
there  were  issued  267  head,  and  on  the  8th  there  were  issued  360  head. 
After  this  issue  a  part  of  the  agency  herd  stampeded,  and  I  then  deci 
ded  not  to  keep  an  agency  herd,  but  requested  Mr.  Bosler  to  retain  the 
cattle  in  his  custody  until  I  needed  them  for  issuing,  which  he  kindly 
consented  to  do,  and  also  assisted  me  in  getting  up  the  cattle  which  had 
stampeded.'7  Now,  here  is  the  statement  of  B.  F.  Walters,  who  was 
then  issuing-clerk  at  the  agency,  and  he  says  that  between  the  8th  and 
21st  there  was  no  issue. 

Q.  There  is  no  controversy  about  that. 

A.  Yes ;  the  point  is,  between  the  8th  and  21st  he  claims  to  have 
received  633  cattle  ;  he  had  no  herd  at  the  agency  from  October  8  ;  you 
have  his  own  statement  to  that  effect,  and  that  he  only  got  them  from 
Bosler's  herd  as  he  used  them.  It  is  clear  he  made  no  issue  of  beef  be 
tween  the  8th  and  21st,  and  he  did  not  receive  633  on  the  15th.  He  says 
that  he  only  took  them  from  the  contractor  as  he  issued  them,  after  the 
8th.  Very  well ;  after  the  8th,  his  first  issue  was  185,  which  he  issued  on 
the  21st.  On  the  23d,  he  issued  399.  Now,  this  is  according  to  his  own 
statement,  or  Mr.  Walters'  statement,  taken  from  the  agency  books  when 
I  was  present.  If  be  had  none  on  hand  on  the  1st,  he  obviously  could 
not  have  had  633  head  on  the  15th  of  October. 

Q.  Without  the  aid  of  the  633  head  of  cattle  could  he  have  made  the 
issue  with  which  he  is  credited  at  all  ? 

A.  No. 

Q.  The  issue,  you  say,  was  correctly  made  ? 

Q.  I  don't  say  that  at  all.  I  am  using  his  statement  to  show  that  he 
made  a  false  statement. 

Q.  Do  you  claim  that  the  633  head  of  cattle  were  never  at  any  time 
received  by  the  agent,  or  only  that  he  issued  a  receipt  at  an  improper 
time  ? 


633 

A.  I  claim  that  the  G33  head  of  cattle  were  not  received  in  that  month 
after  the  loth  of  October,  either  in  bulk  or  in  two  lots. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  stated  to  me,  when  I  asked  you  the  question  if  you  intended 
to  say  whether  those  cattle  had  never  been  received  by  the  agent,  that 
you  did  not  know,  but  you  did  not  believe  that  they  were.  You  are 
now  giving  the  grounds  of  your  belief! 

A.  My  reasons  for  stating  specially  is  that  the  receipt  of  October  15 
is  false  and  fraudulent. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  reasons  aside  from  those  you  have  stated  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Let  us  have  them  all ;  we  want  to  take  the  widest  possible  scope, 
and  wish  to  get  all  your  reasons. 

A.  When  I  was  making  inquiries  about  the  deliveries,  I  found  that 
the  delivery  of  the  21st  of  October  had  not  been  weighed  at  all — that  is, 
there  was  no  record  of  the  weight,  and  they  had  not  been  weighed. 

Q.  You  were  not  there? 

A.  I  was  not  there. 

Q.  Anything  further  ! 

A.  No,  sir.     I  think  that  is  all  on  that  point. 

Q.  Are  those  all  the  reasons  you  have  for  concluding  that  the  receipt 
was  false  and  fraudulent? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  . 

Q.  Is  it  the  same  in  reference  to  the  other  receipt  of  the  15th  ? 

A.  The  loth  is  the  one  I  am  speaking  about  all  this  time ;  the  receipt 
of  the  1st  was  cloudy  and  misty  so  [far  as  I  was  concerned.  The  chief 
herder  testified  that  he  did  not  receive  that  number  on  that  day,  and 
subsequently  there  was  an  affidavit  of  Bissonet,  showing  that  there  was 
no  issue  on  the  1st  of  October. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  anything,  Mr.  Walker,  to  the  contrarj',  that  it 
was  not  the  custom  on  the  part  of  the  contractor  there  to  deliver  lots  of 
beef  as  the  agent  required,  taking  a  memorandum-receipt,  or  rather  the 
person  delivering  the  cattle  taking  a  memorandum-receipt  for  the  con 
tractor,  while  the  agent  receipted  to  the  contractor  on  the  1st  and  15th, 
as  of  that  date,  for  the  cattle  received  up  to  the  date  of  the  receipt  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  went  there  with  the  information  that  the  contract  re 
quired  the  contractor  to  deliver  on  the  1st  and  15th  of  each  month,  and 
the  agent  to  receive  them.  I  never  heard  anything  of  memorandum-re 
ceipts,  except  from  J.  W.  Bosler.  He  is  the  only  one  who  has  ever  said 
a  word  about  them  to  me.  I  never  heard  the  agent  claim  that  he  gave 
memorandum-receipts.  He  never  said  a  word  of  that  to  me.  I  asked 
his  representative — I  went  to  Mr.  Appleton  and  asked  him  for  his  infor 
mation  on  every  subject  on  which  I  reported. 

Q.  My  question  was  if  you  knew  of  any  such  practice. 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  don't  think  I  ever  heard  of  it. 

Q.  It  may,  however,  have  existed  without  your  knowing  it  ? 

A.  O,  yes. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  These  statements  of  Mr.  Bosler  that  you  speak  of,  what  time  were 
they  made  ? 

A.  He  made  them  to  me  last  night ;  I  never  heard  of  them  before  in 
all  the  operations  of  the  Office. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  him  before  about  it  ? 


634 

A.  Yes,  very  often ;  I  have  very  often  had  conversation  with  him  on 
the  subject  of  beef. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  ask  him  about  them  before? 

A.  No,  sir  5  I  never  supposed  there  was  anything  of  that  kind. 
By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  What  office  did  you  mean  when  you  spoke  of  the  Office  ? 

A.  The  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  They  would  not  come  to  the  notice  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners  in  any  case  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Walker,  am  I  to  understand  you  as  discrediting  the  receipt  of 
the  1st  of  October,  because  there  was  no  issue  made  upon  the  1st  of 
October  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  for  the  further  reason  that  the  cattle  were 
stampeded  the  night  before. 

Q.  But  the  cattle,  as  I  understand  you,  were  stampeded  on  the  30th 
of  September? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  before  they  were  delivered  to  the  agency,  before  Agent 
Saville  receipted  for  them.     The  chief  herder  said  he  refused  to  receive 
them  so  late  at  night,  because  he  could  not  count  them  ? 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  Saville  refused  to  receive  them  ?    . 

A.  No,  sir;  he  himself. 

Q.  Where  did  you  derive  that  information  ? 

A.  Saville's  own  testimony;  I  find  that  he  confirms  it  here. 
By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  And  you  also  discredit  the  receipt  of  the  15th  of  October,  because 
there  was  no  issue  of  beef  on  the  15th  of  October  J? 

A.  Not  for  that  reason  alone,  but  because  there  was  not  a  hoof  of 
cattle  at  the  agency  at  that  time. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  call  your  attention  to  his  statement  in  regard  to  the  stampede  of 
cattle,  where  he  says,  "  On  the  1st  of  October  there  were  issued  267 
head,  and  on  the  8th  there  were  issued  360  head.  After  this  last  issue,  a 
part  of  the  agency  herd  stanrpHled,  and  I  then  decided  not  to  keep  an 
agency  herd,  but  requested  Mr.  Bosler  to  retain  the  cattle  in  his  custody 
until  I  needed  them  for  issuing,  which  he  kindly  consented  to  do,  and 
also  assisted  me  in  getting  up  the  cattle  which  had  stampeded."  Do 
you  assume  it  was  on  the  8th  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  on  the  evening  of  the  8th  ;  my  information  is  positive  on 
that  subject. 

Q.  Here  is  the  statement  as  I  find -it:  "The  stampede  may  not  have 
taken  place  before  the  15th."  Now,  if  you  have  a  fact  which  will  supply 
that  deficiency,  we  shall  be  very  glad  to  have  you  furnish  it. 

A.  Yes,  I  will  give  it  you  ;  the  information  is  positive  on  that  point. 
I  have  not  got  a  copy  of  the  affidavit  here.  I  will  bring  it  to  the  com 
mission  when  I  come  again,  but  I  refer  you  to  the  testimony  of  Mr.  J. 
H.  Bosler,  on  the  same  subject,  page  27  of  Bishop  Hare's  report.  You 
will  find  there  he  says  that  he  turned  over,  on  the  8th,  633  head  ;  that 
very  soon  after  that  the  stampede  occurred — the  8th  or  9th. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  cattle  receipted  for  as  having  been  received  on  the  15th  of 
October,  1873 — do  you  know  that  they  were  not  received  by  Saville  f 


635 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  do.' 

Q.  Were  you  there  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  was  not  there. 

Q.  Where  were  you  on  the  15th  ? 

A.  I  was  in  Washington. 

Q.  Then,  how  do  you  know  the  fact  ?  Will  you  cite  us  to  that  testi 
mony  ? 

A.  A  statement  of  Mr.  Appleton  to  myself. 

Q.  Where  is  the  statement  ? 

A.  It  is  here.     I  will  give  you  some  further  evidence  in  regard  to  it. 

Q.  Where  is  the  statement  1 

A.  I  referred  to  it  in  my  report. 

Q.  Where  will  we  get  the  statement  itself  ? 

A.  I  will  bring  it  to  you. 

Q.  Now,  what  else '? 

A.  And  the  corroborative  testimony  of  J.  II.  Bosler. 

Q.  Where  is  that  ? 

A.  Page  27  of  Bishop  Hare's  report. 

Q.  What  else  ? 

A.  That  is  all,  sir ;  also  the  statement  of  Agent  Saville  himself,  on 
page  23  of  Bishop  Hare's  report,  who  evidently  means  that  the  stam 
pede  occurred  on  the  8th. 

Q.  Am  I  to  understand  you  to  say  that  there  was  a  stampede  on  the 
30th  of  September? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  one  also  on  the  8th  of  October  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  But  one  was  a  Government  herd,  and  the  other  the 
Government  had  nothing  to  do  with.  The  stampede  of  the  8th  of  Octo 
ber  was  of  a  Government  herd,  and  the  stampede  on  the  night  of  the  30th 
of  September  was  of  the  contractor's  herd.  The  chief  herder  at  the 
agency  told  me  at  the  time  that  the  contractor's  herd  stampeded. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  You  refer  to  the  statement  of  Mr.  J.  H.  Bosler,  on  page  27.  I  find 
that  he  says  this :  "  We  turned  over  to  Dr.  Saville,  on  the  1st  of  Octo 
ber,  647  head,  and  received  a  receipt  for  them."  We  would  infer  from 
that  that  the  cattle  had  been  received  by  the  agent  on  the  1st  of  Octo 
ber. 

A.  The  chief  herder  informed  me  that  the  contractor's  herd  stampeded 
on  the  night  of  the  30th  of  September,  and  that  they  only  got  up  enough 
to  issue  on  the  1st  of  October ;  and  I  afterward  got  the  testimony  of  the 
interpreter  that  there  was  no  issue  on  the  1st  of  October — sworn  testi 
mony.  It  is  uncontradicted  to  this  day. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Does  not  Saville  claim  that  he  did  issue  on  that  day  ? 

A.  That  is  a  simple  statement ;  that  is  not  sworn  to ;  he  don't  contra 
dict  it  in  his  own  sworn  testimony. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  his  statement  does  not  contradict  it  ? 

A.  I  say  his  statement  is  not  as  good  evidence  as  sworn  testimony. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  Mr.  Saville's  statement,  as  published  in  vour  own  re 
port,  does  not  contradict  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  you  present  to  assist  in  the  weighing  of  a  herd  of  cattle  re 
ceived  on  the  18th  of  November  ? 


636 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  weights  of  the  cattle  on  that  occasion  correctly  stated  in 
the  voucher  returned  by  the  agent  ? 

A.  I  never  saw  the  voucher  that  I  know  of,  sir. 

Q.  Never  examined  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  not  the  cattle  weighed  on  that  day  ? 

A.  All  except  six  head.  It  was  late  at  night,  and  at  the  end  of  the 
issue  there  were  five  or  six  old  oxen  that  they  could  not  drive  on  the 
scales  by  any  means.  The  corral  was  too  large,  and  the  herder  could 
not  drive  these  six  old  fellows  into  the  chute. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  whether  the  cattle  3*011  could  not  weigh  were  not  the 
largest  cattle  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  they  were  very  old  cattle,  and  they  were  large  old  fellows 
that  you  could  not  get  on  the  chute  anyhow.  There  had  been  some 
larger  ones  weighed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Since  the  date  of  this  report  of  yours,  has  there  come  to  your 
knowledge  any  other  facts  going  to  show  any  fraud  on  the  part  of  the 
agent  or  any  of  the  contractors  at  any  of  the  Indian  agencies ;  and,  if 
so,  what  ? 

A.  The  testimony  with  Bishop  Hare's  report  confirms  that. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  there  has  come  to  your  knowledge,  since  the  date  of 
your  report,  any  other  facts  than  those  which  you  yourself  had  in  rela 
tion  to  frauds  by  the  Indian  agents  or  an y  contractor  ;  and,  if  so,  what  ? 

A.  The  facts  connected  with  the  McCann  contract  came  to  my  notice 
since,  which  are  to  my  mind  evidence  of  wrong  on  the  part  of  the  agent. 

Q.  Any  others  ? 

A.  I  was  not  long  enough  in  the  office,  officially  connected  with  it,  after 
that  5  and  I  don't  want  to  state  what  I  don't  know. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Before  Mr.  Walker  passes  from  that  subject,  I  would  like  to  have 
him  give  us  the  weight  of  the  cattle  received  and  issued  November  18, 
1873. 

A.  I  will  read  from  my  report :  "  On  the  18th  of  November  410  beeves, 
averaging  967  pounds,  were  received  and  issued.  I  was  present  and  as 
sisted  in  the  weighing  of  the  herd  received  November  18,  and  it  was 
said  by  the  whites  and  Indians  to  have  been  the  finest  herd  received 
during  the  year." 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  time  did  you  quit  the  service  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners? 

A.  I  resigned  to  date  June  30,  1874. 

Q.  Since  that  time  have  you  given  any  attention  tq  this  subject  ? 

A.  Occasionally  ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  examined  into  it  ? 

A.  Whenever  the  subject  came  up  I  alwa5'S  read  it  with  interest. 

Q.  Have  you  w*ritten  something  on  the  subject  I 

A.  Occasionally ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  made  investigations  for  the  facts  upon  which  you  wrote  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  corresponded  with  and  talked  with  others  who  have 
been  investigating  the  facts  in  reference  to  this  matter  1 


637 

A.  I  may  have  done  so ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  know  of  no  other  instances  of  fraud  on  the  part  of  an 
agent  or  contractor  since  the  date  of  your  report,  other  than  the  one 
you  have  talked  about,  (the  McCann  contract) ;  or  do  you  know  of  any 
{persons  to  whom  you  can  refer  us  who  can  give  us  any  information  of 
any  other  frauds  on  the  part  of  any  person  connected  with  the  [Indian 
Department ! 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  Mr.  Steele,  of  Wyoming  Territory. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  information  he  can  give  us  ? 

A.  He  informed  me  that  he  could  bring  forward  good  and  reliable 
men  who  would  prove  that  Indian  supplies  have  been  sold  at  Cheyenne. 

Q.  When  did  he  make  that  statement  ? 

A.  He  made  that  statement  in  the  early  part  of  1874. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  person  you  can  cite  us  to  ? 

A.  No  ;  I  believe  not,  sir,  out  there. 

Q,  Well,  here  ? 

A.  None  here. 

By  Mr.  ATHEKTOX  : 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Steele  specify  the  kind  of  supplies  he  knew  to  be  on  sale? 

A.  I  think  he  said  coffee  and  sugar,  and  some  of  the  oats  for  Whet 
stone  agency  were  on  sale  there.  I  don't  mention  Jules  Ecoffee  and 
other  men  out  there,  because  I  understand  you  have  seen  all  those. 
You  are  inquiring  for  new  information,  I  presume. 

Q.  Have  you  read  the  statement  of  Professor  Marsh,  which  this  com 
mission  is  called  upon  to  investigate? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  in  reference  to  any  of  the  charges  con 
tained  in  Professor  Marsh's  statement  which  you  can  give  to  us,  tending 
to  establish  the  correctness  of  the  charges  °! 

A.  liefer  me  to  some  particular  one,  and  ask  me  about  that. 

Q.  Any  one  of  them  or  all  of  them  ? 

A.  Well,  to  begin  with,  he  says,  on  page  4:  u  The  evidence  in  my 
possession  reflects  unfavorably  on  both  Secretary  Delano  and  Commis 
sioner  Smith." 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  information  that  will  substantiate  those 
charges'? 

A.  He  says  he  has  reason  to  know  that  "they  have  long  been  aware 
of  these  abuses,  but  have  made  no  sincere  effort  to  reform  them.7'  Take 
the  McCann  contract,  for  instance;  both  of  those  gentlemen  knew 
about  the  distance  that  McCann  was  paid  for  in  that  contract  early  in 
1874. 

Q.  How  did  they  get  the  information  ? 

A.  They  got  it  officially  from  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 
That  is,  in  the  first  part  of  it.  They  got  some  two  or  three  affidavits 
which  I  sent  in  from  Cheyenne.  Those  affidavits  were  made  by  the  sub 
contractors  of  McCaun. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  send  them  to  ? 

A.  To  the  office  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  Well,  what  did  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  do  with  them  ? 

A.  Transmitted  them  to  the  Indian  Office. 

Q.  You  know  that  fact  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  that? 

A.  November  24,  1873;  the  original  affidavits  were  transmitted  to 
the  Secretary  of  the  Interior.  When  I  returned,  the  chief  clerk  of  the 


638 

Indian  Office,  Mr.  Glum,  asked  me  if  there  was  anything  additional  on 
the  subject,  and  thereafter  we  transmitted  a  copy  "of  Hecht's  contract, 
the  one  I  have  before  referred  to,  with  some  additional  testimony  on  the 
subject.  There  was,  another  affidavit,  I  cannot  recall  which  it  was  now, 
but  they  are  all  here  in  this  document.  They  had  all  this  knowledge 
in  their  possession  from  the  wagon-masters  who  were  filling  the  contract 
for  McCann.  They  testified  that  the  distance  was  from  one  hundred  and 
eighty-six  to  one  hundred  and  eighty-eight  miles,  as  did  also  the  ambu 
lance-driver  at  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  his  name  ? 

A.  Jo.  something. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Jo.  Clymer? 

A.  I  don't  know  his  last  name.  This  evidence  was  transmitted  at 
that  time. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  matters  that  have  been  brought  to  the  notice 
of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  or  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs? 

A.  Yes;  the  over-deliveries  of  cattle  at  Red  Cloud  agency  were 
brought  to  their  attention  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  over-deliveries  ? 

A.  Receiving  more  beef  than  the  contract  required;  I  mean  that 
there  were  receipts  given  in  advance  of  the  specified  weights  in  the 
contract  and  the  requirements  of  the  agency. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  that  they  were  notified  that  the  agent  received 
more  beef  than  the  contract  required  or  was  needed  for  issue  at  his 
agency  on  that  day? 

A.  Yes.  What  I  mean  is,  that  he  was  taking  from  the  contractor 
cattle  in  excess  of  the  amount  contracted  for,  which  he  did  not  need  at 
all  at  the  time  he  received  them.  The  contract  calls  for  so  many  millions 
of  pounds  of  beef,  and  I  mean  it  was  received  faster  than  it  was  required 
to  be  delivered  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  When  did  they  get  a  notice  of  that,  and  what  was  the  notice  they 
had? 

A.  The  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  notified  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  in  October,  1873,  that  there  were  frauds  practiced  at  Whetstone 
agency — reported  that  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  early  in  1873. 

Q.  What  were  they  ? 

A.  Fraudulent  delivery  of  cattle,  and  inferior  flour. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  In  what  respect  fraudulent  ?     State  that. 

A.  The  fraud  consisted,  according  to  the  report  of  Messrs.  Kemble 
and  Alvord,  in  the  agent  receipting  for  more  cattle  than  he  received, 
and  the  flour-contractor  delivering  flour  which  was  inferior  to  the  kind 
contracted  for.  It  was  so  inferior  as  to  be  unfit  for  use.  I  have  a  speci 
men  of  it  here,  if  any  gentleman  would  like  to  look  at  it. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Yes;  we  would  like  to  s,ee  it. 

[Specimen  of  flour  shown.] 

Q.  Well,  any  other  ? 

A.  About  that  flour  and  the  other  frauds :  The  Board  declined  to  pass 
certain  accounts  in  consequence  of  the  frauds,  because  the  commissioners 
were  very  positive  in  recommending  a  thorough  investigation  before  any 
accounts  should  be  paid  to  the  contractors  for  flour  and  beef. 

Q.  The  Board  recommended  that  there  should  be  no  more  payments 
to  that  contractor— G.  M.  Dodge  ? 

A.  He  had  the  flour  and  beef. 


639 

Q.  When  was  that  ? 

A.  In  August,  September,  and  October,  1873,  and  it  was  for  the  con 
tract  for  the  year  1872-'3. 

Q.  Now,  the  Board  recommended  that  no  more  payments  should  be 
made  upon  the  contracts  for  beef  and  flour  to  that  contractor,  who  was 
contractor  for  both  beef  and  flour  for  that  year,  until  the  matter  was  in 
vestigated  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  date  of  that  recommendation  of  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners'? 

A.  Well,  this  book  would  indicate  that  it  was  September  27,  1873 — 
the  report  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Comissioners  for  1873. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  sample  of  flour  ! 

A.  I  took  it  myself. 

Q.  Where  from  ? 

A.  From  a  pile  of  flour  at  Whetstone  agency. 

Q.  When? 

A.  On  the  occasion  of  my  visit,  in  November,  1873. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Who  was  at  that  time  agent  ? 

A.  Mr.  Howard  ;  he  succeeded  the  agent  who  was  charged  with  being 
implicated  in  the  Dodge  frauds.  Eisley  is  the  one  who  was  implicated 
in  the  Dodge  frauds. 

Q.  Then  that  flour  had  been  received  there  before  Agent  Howard 
came  into  office  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  did  not  implicate  Howard  in  any  way ;  he  had  nothing 
to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  that  time  the  flour  had  been  paid  for  by 
the  Government? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  at  that  time.  That  particular  flour  might  have  been 
paid  for;  but  Dodge's  account  had  not  at  that  time  been  closed.  That 
particular  delivery  may  have  been  paid  for,  but  the  balance  of  the  money 
due  him  under  his  contract  was  not  at  that  time  paid. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  or  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affiairs  made  any  investigation  into  the  sub 
ject? 

A.  There  was  an  inspector  sent  subsequently,  but  his  report  was  so 
vague  that  the  question  again  was  submitted  to  Bishop  Hare's  com 
mission. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  frauds  or  mismanagement  of  Indian 
affairs  that  were  brought  to  their  notice  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  they  ? 

A.  There  was  the  claim  of  G.  M.  Dodge  for  $5,054.81,  that  was  ap 
proved  by  the  Indian  Office. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  that  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  what  was  there  wrong  about  it  ? 

A.  It  was  what  was  called  a  depredation-claim,  that  could  not  be  le 
gally  paid  unless  specially  directed  by  Congress,  and  there  was  no 
proof  of  the  fact  that  the  beef  was  actually  taken  by  the  Indians  sub 
mitted  with  it. 

Q.  Was  the  account  for  beef  alleged  to  have  been  taken  by  the  In 
dians  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


640 

Q.  Dodge  was  the  beef-contractor? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  his  herd  up  in  that  Indian  country  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  where  he  had  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  the  cattle  were  taken  from  ? 

A.  They  were  supposed  to  have  been  taken  by  the  Indians  at  Eed 
Cloud  agency ;  that  is,  the  assertion  was  that  they  were  taken  by  them. 
It  was  returned  to  the  Interior  Department  because  there  was  no  proof 
of  the  facts ;  and  subsequently  it  was  sent  back  to  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners  by  General  Cowen  for  reconsideration.  It  was  again 
returned  by  the  Board,  pointing  out  the  law  on  the  subject  that  it  could 
not  be  paid  out  of  appropriations  made  for  the  subsistence  for  Indians, 
unless  Congress  specially  provided  for  that  particular  claim,  having  evi 
dence  on  the  subject.  It  was  subsequently  submitted  to  Congress. 
The  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  disapproved  it,  deciding  that  it 
could  not  be  paid  out  of  a  fixed  appropriation,  so  far  as  the  Indian 
Office  was  concerned  ;  but  action  had  been  taken  on  it  to  pay  it,  and  it 
was  then  submitted  to  Congress  with  the  words  "  no  proof/7  and  then 
it  was  withdrawn.  The  Indian  Bureau  passed  it.  As  far  as  it  was  pos 
sible  for  them  to  do  it  they  settled  the  account  and  ordered  its  pay 
ment  from  the  appropriation  for  the  subsistence  of  the  Sioux.  When  I 
was  there  the  order  was  to  state  an  account  in  the  Indian  Office,  and 
there  to  designate  the  appropriation  from  which  the  account  should  be 
paid,  and  approve  its  payment.  That  approval  indicated  that  the  Indian 
Office  was  satisfied  of  the  correctness  of  the  claim ;  that  is,  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  or  the  acting  Commissioner,  whichever 
might  be  acting  at  the  time  the  Indian  Office  approved  it. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  State  the  usual  course  of  accounts  before  payment. 

A.  They  are  first  stated  in  the  Indian  Office  and  then  approved  by 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  after  which  they  are  sent  to  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  They  approve  or  disapprove,  as  the 
case  may  be,  and  transmit  the  account  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior 
with  their  reasons  for  their  action  if  they  disapprove  it.  The  Secretary 
then  confirms  their  action  or  sets  it  aside,  as  seems  best  to  him.  After 
his  action  it  goes  back  to  the  Indian  Office  for  transmission  to  the 
Second  Auditor  of  the  Treasury,  who  makes  a  report  on  the  claim  to 
the  Second  Comptroller  of  the  Treasury,  who  approves  or  disapproves 
that  report,  as  the  case  may  be  ;  and  the  report  as  acted  on  is  sent  back 
to  the  Indian  Office  for  a  requisition  drawn  on  the  appropriation  desig 
nated  on  the  original  account,  which  is  signed  by  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  then  goes  back  to  the 
Treasury  for  record  and  approval  by  the  Second  Auditor  and  Comptroller, 
and  afterward  by  the  Kegister  and  Treasurer  of  the  United  States,  who 
issues  the  draft  on  it. 

Q.  When  this  particular  account  came  back  to  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  with  the  disapproval,  what  was  his. action  ? 

A.  He  returned  it  to  the  Board  with  a  request  for  reconsideration. 
That  was  the  first  action.  The  second  action  was,  the  Board  indorsed 
on  it  a  reference  to  the  law  which  forbade  its  payment.  All  I  know  of 
it,  personally  after  that  is,  it  was  submitted  to  Congress  with  the  words, 
"no  proofs,"  and  that,  finally,  it  was  withdrawn.  The  Secretary  could 
not  approve  it ;  the  law  forbade  it.  The  law  stated  that  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  should  prescribe  rules  for  taking  evidence  on  those 
depredation  claims. 


641 

Q.  Could  the  Secretary  suspend  or  set  aside  the  action  of  the  Board  ? 

A.  He  could  not  set  aside  the  action  of  the  Board  in  that  case.  In 
general,  the  law  gave  the  Secretary  power  to  do  so,  but  in  this  case  he 
could  not  do  so. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  he  wanted  to  overcome  it  *? 
A.  The  fact  that  he  submitted  it  a  second  time  is  pretty  good  evi 
dence. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  He  did  not  submit  any  additional  reasons  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  the  claim  assumed  that  while  the  Indians  had  taken  these 
cattle  by  force  and  used  them  they  should  be  charged  as  cattle  actually 
used  ? 

A.  I  don't  know ;  you  can  easily  understand  why  such  claims  as  that 
would  bunch  up. 

Q.  I  am  seeking  to  ascertain  whether  Secretary  Co  wen  or  anybody 
else  made  any  suggestion  why  these  cattle' taken  by  the  Indians  should 
be  paid  for  to  the  contractor  as  if  regularly  delivered. 

A.  There  was  a  suggestion  that  the  agent  at  Eed  Cloud  agency,  I 
understand,  could  take  them  up  on  his  returns,  and  then  they  could 
get  pay  for  them  as  provisions  issued.  Of  course,  that  the  agent  could 
not  do. 

Q.  The  question  I  ask  is,  whether  your  Board  were  urged  to  pass  the 
claim  on  the  ground  that  the  cattle  had  been  actually  received  and  con 
sumed  by  the  Indians,  and  that  therefore  they  should  be  considered  as 
actually  delivered  ? 

A.  I  would  not  be  positive  whether  that  statement  was  made  to  them 
or  not ;  if  so,  I  have  not  seen  it,  although  I  was  in  charge  of  the  office 
at  the  time.  I  will  say  this,  in  explanation  of  that  fact,  that  in  some 
cases  of  those  rejected  accounts  they  were  retransmitted  to  the  executive 
committee  without  coming  to  the  office  of  the  Board  ]  this  might  be  one 
of  those  cases. 

Q.  When  you  stated  that  the  Secretary  could  not  approve  the  bill,  you 
stated  it  from  your  own  view  of  what  the  law  actually  is  ? 

A.  I  stated  the  law. 

Q.  You  gave  your  opinion  of  the  law  ? 

A.  This  law  distinctly  says  that  those  depredation  accounts  shall  not 
be  paid. 

Q.  And  you  are  of  the  opinion  that  this  was  a  depredation  account, 
and  could  not  be  paid  in  any  other  way  ? 

A.  Undoubtedly. 

Q.  Did  you  satisfy  yourself  whether  the  Indians  received  or  took  any 
cattle  in  that  way  ? 

A.  When  the  account  is  submitted  for  payment  it  is  natural  to  suppose 
all  the  proof  necessary  is  with  it. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  proofs  ? 

A.  Nothing  only  the  letter  of  the  agent,  that  he  believed  it  was  so. 
That  was  the  only  account  there  was  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  at  any  time  Indians  have  seized  cattle  in 
that  way,  killed  and  used  them,  when  the  agent  has  delivered  a  less 
number  of  cattle  on  the  next  issue-day  ? 

A.  If  he  did,  he  took  upon  himself  a  responsibility  he  had  no  right  to. 
41  IF 


642 

Q.  I  only  ask  you  if  you  have  any  knowledge  on  that  point  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  if  the  law,  according  to  the  witness's  interpreta 
tion,  would  not  prevent  any  officer  of  the  Government  from  approving 
that  claim  ? 

A.  Undoubtedly. 

Q.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  did  approve  it  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Therefore,  it  could  be  done  ? 

A.  His  personal  action  shows  that  he  was  guilty  of  an  illegal  act  on 
that  occasion. 

Q.  The  Secretary  of  the  Interior  could  have  approved  it  also  ? 

A.  He  had  no  power  to  do  so.  The  idea  is  that  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  approved  an  account,  and  did  it  illegally. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Your  idea  is  that  the  Second  Comptroller  of  the  Treasury  has  the 
power  to  check  an  illegal  order  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  so  I  understood  it. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Is  it  customary  in  sending  those  papers  to  the  Second  Comptroller 
for  his  final  action  to  have  all  the  papers  before  him  ? 

A.  The  account,  as  sent  to  the  Second  Auditor,  as  I  understand  it, 
should  have  every  paper  connected  with  the  claim,  so  that  he  could 
have  the  whole  thing  before  him. 

Q.  Then  the  accounting  officer  of  the  Treasury  paid  these  accounts 
with  all  the  facts  that  the  Indian  Office  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior 
had  before  them  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  you  will  remember  this  fact,  that  there  was  an  issue 
made  as  to  the  power  of  the  Head  of  the  Department  to  order  the  pay 
ment  in  his  own  Department,  and  that  Secretary  Richardson,  who  was 
in  the  Treasury  at  the  time  these  payments  were  being  made,  informed 
the  Second  Comptroller  that  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  would  be  held 
responsible  for  those  payments,  but  to  pay  such  accounts  as  he  decided 
to  be  paid.  This  particular  account  was  never  paid. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  the  practice  was  before  that  decision  of  Secre 
tary  Richardson  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  law  under  which  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
was  organized,  and  subsequent  laws,  require  that  accounts  should  be 
submitted  to  them  for  their  action  before  the  final  payment,  fifty  per 
cent,  of  such  accounts  to  be  retained  until  their  action  was  had.  Under 
that  law,  when  they  rejected  accounts,  it  was  found  by  the  accounting 
officers  to  be  difficult  to  decide  in  every  case  exactly  what  they  could 
do,  and  that  probably  led  to  the  conference  on  the  subject. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Well,  sir,  do  you  know  of  any  other  instances  of  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior  or  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  or  any  person  con 
nected  with  those  branches  of  the  Government,  failing  to  do  their  duty, 
or  being  guilty  of  any  wrong-doing? 

A.  Well,  I  am  talking  about  the  violation  of  the  law  now.  The  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  gave  A.  H.  Wilder  a  contract  for  transporta 
tion  without  advertisement,  in  1873-'4,  from  Fort  Randall  to  Whetstone 


643 

The  first  contractor  offered  to  do  the  work  for  $1.12J  per  hundred 
pounds  per  hundred  miles.  The  contract  was  awarded  to  him,  and  he 
declined  to  accept  it.  I  heard  that  there  had  been  improper  influences 
used  with  him  to  get  him  to  decline. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  hear  it  from  ? 

Q.  I  heard  it  in  Cheyenne,  and  it  was  H.  W.  Moore,  the  store-keeper, 
who  told  me. 

Q.  Who  did  he  tell  you  used  the  improper  influences  ? 

A.  He  did  not  say  who. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  he  knew  the  fact  himself,  or  that  he  heard  it,  or 
saw  it? 

A.  I  don't  suppose  he  saw  it. 

Q.  Did  he  hear  anybody  make  a  proposition  of  that  kind  ? 

A.  I  don't  know ;  when  he  stated  the  fact  to  me,  he  didn't  say  whether 
he  knew  it  of  his  own  knowledge  or  got  it  from  somebody  else.  The 
first  contractor  declined  to  execute  the  contract,  and  Wilder  got  it  for 
$1.32  per  hundred  pounds  per  hundred  miles.  He  wasn't  a  bidder  at 
all. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  bidder  lower  than  $1.32 — any  bona-fide  bidder  any 
lower  than  that  ? 

A.  1  don't  know.  The  illegality  consisted  in  giving  the  contract  with 
out  first  advertising  it.  Subsequently  Wilder  sublet  the  contract  to 
Pratt,  at  Fort  Randall,  and  Pratt  sublet  it  to  George  Marshall,  who  was 
the  man  that  declined  the  contract  at  first,  and,  as  I  was  informed,  at 
the  original  rate  he  had  bid  for  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  had  any 
knowledge  of  this  subletting? 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  formal  subletting — any  written  assignment  of  the 
contract  to  Platt  ? 

A.  It  was  testified  before  the  Indian  investigating  committee  that  he 
did  the  work ;  that  Wilder  paid  him  $1.20  per  hundred  miles,  for  trans 
porting  to  the  agency. 

Q.  That  answer  assumes  there  was  an  assignment  of  the  contract. 

A.  There  is  some  evidence  of  that ;  I  will  refer  to  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  there  such  an  assignment  of  it  as  required  the  approval  of 
the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  or  was  any  assignment  approved 
by  him  ? 

A.  It  is  not  usual  for  these  contractors  to  come  to  the  Indian  Office 
to  make  their  assignments. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  you  know  there  was  any  assignment  ? 

A.  What  I  know  of  it  is  the  testimony  of  Pratt's  partner,  before  the 
Indian  investigating  committee,  that  Wilder  had  it  done  at  $1.20;  and 
the  point  of  it  is  that  Wilder,  at  the  time  that  he  got  that  contract,  had 
not  a  hoof — had  no  transportation. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  claim  is  made  that  there  is  a  fraud  in  letting  the  contract 
All  I  want  is  to  put  on  record  the  clear  evidence  of  this  fraud. 

A.  The  clear  evidence  of  this  fraud  is  that  Wilder  had  not  wagon- 
transportation  at  the  point  in  question.  By  the  subletting  in  both  in- 


644 

stances  the  Government  was  defrauded ;  first,  out  of  12  cents  per  hun 
dred  pounds  per  hundred  miles  transportation  from  Fort  Randall'  to 
Whetstone,  which  Wilder  got  without  performing  any  service;  the 
second  instance  was  Pratt's  com  mission  as  agent,  for  himself  and  Wilder, 
while  the  Government  had  a  shipping-agent  right  there  at  the  point. 

Q.  With  transportation  ? 

A.  He  was  an  agent,  and  took  charge  of  the  freight  for  the  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  And  this  makes  a  clear  fraud  to  your  mind  ? 

A.  It  makes  it  clear  to  iny  mind  that  the  Government  was  cheated 
out  of  the  balance  over  what  was  paid  to  the  men  who  actually  per 
formed  the  contract. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  right  here  what  point  in  this  transaction  fixed 
the  charge  of  illegal  action  upon  the  Commissioner? 

A.  Letting  the  contract  to  a  person  who  was  not  a  bidder  at  all,  with 
out  advertisement. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  inquire  whether  the  Commissioner  has  or  has  not  a  right  to  refuse 
to  take  any  bid,  and  has  it  in  his  power  to  reject  any  or  all  bids  if,  in 
his  judgment,  they  are  not  at  proper  rates  ? 

A.  It  is  stipulated  in  the  advertisement,  but  the  la\v  requires  him  to 
let  all  his  contracts  after  advertisement. 

Q.  Even  though,  after  having  advertised,  he  might  reject  all  bids  ?  Do 
you  say  that,  having  strictly  conformed  to  the  law  and  advertised,  he 
can  then  make  a  private  contract ! 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  don't  say  that. 

Q.  You  claim,  on  the  whole,  he  can  never  make  a  contract  until  he 
accepts  some  bids '? 

A.  If  he  finds  that  the  bids  are  improper  bids,  he  is  not  forced  to  ac 
cept  those  bids ;  but  he  must  advertise  anew  then  5  that  is  my  view  of  it. 

Q.  Then  you  are  stating  your  view  of  the  law  ? 

A.  The  law  is  clear  of  itself. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  you  are  not  now  giving  your  view  of  the  law  ? 

A.  I  first  state  the  law  as  it  existed,  and  that  is  my  view  of  the  law 
also. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  will  ask  you,  Mr.  Walker,  in  case  there  is  no  bid,  when  he  ad 
vertises,  what  he  would  do  then  ? 

A.  I  presume  it  would  be  for  him  to  consult  with  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  and  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  to  get  the  best  terms 
he  could;  if  he  could  not  get  anybody  to  bid  under  this  legal  advertise 
ment,  then  it  is  his  duty  to  consult  with  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  and  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  to  make  the  best  contract  he  can 
for  the  Government. 

Q.  Now,  in  this  case,  if  there  was  no  other  bidder  than  this  man  who 
failed  to  make  his  contract  good  after  it  was  awarded  to  him,  what 
would  be  the  duty  of  the  Commissioner  then  ? 

A.  To  advertise  again. 

Q.  That  is  your  view  of  the  law  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 
Q.  Well,  in  your  judgment,  would  not  the  emergencies  of  the  service 


645 

determine  the  question  when  it  would  be  proper  for  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  to  consult  with  those  higher  iu  authority  to  make  a  private  con 
tract  ? 

A.  You  said  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  sir,  to  consult  with  those 
higher  in  authority  than  himself. 

Q.  I  ask  whether  or  not  if  the  emergencies  of  the  service  must  not 
determine  the  question  when  it  becomes  proper  for  him  to  make  a  pri 
vate  contract  ? 

A.  There  was  no  emergency. 

Q.  That  is  not  my  question.  I  am  not  asking  your  opinion  as  to  that 
emergency ;  only  as  to  the  power.  I  ask  you  whether  the  emergency  of 
the  service  must  not  determine  the  question  when  it  is  proper  to  make 
a  contract  without  advertisment  I 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  So,  then,  your  judgment  of  law  does  give  the  Commissioner  of  In 
dian  Affairs,  with  the  advice  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  power  to  make  a  contract  without  ad 
vertisement? 

A.  When  there  is  an  emergency.  Of  course  it  must  be  an  emergency 
clear  and  distinct. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  instances  of  mismanagement  or  fraud 
on  the  part  of  anybody  connected  with  the  Indian  service  ? 

A.  Well,  yes  ;  for  instance,  in  1873  corn  was  substituted  for  flour. 

Q.  Where  at  ? 

A.  At  Sioux  Citv. 

Q.  Who  did  it  f 

A.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  Well,  what  fraud  was  there  about  that '? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  the  change  was  made  without  any  contract.  The 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  said  it  was  done  under  the  recommend 
ation  of  the  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  in  writing  "I 

A.  Yes.  He  sent  it  before  the  Indian  Committee,  but  the  secretary, 
in  stating  his  belief  on  that  point,  had  no  authority  to  represent  the 
Board,  and  he  did  not,  in  fact,  do  so. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  know  it  from  himself,  Mr.  Cree.  He  said  he  had  no 
authority  to  recommend  it  as  representing  the  Board.  In  a  private  let 
ter  to  Mr.  Smith  he  said  he  believed  corn  could  be  used  advanta 
geously. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  State  wherein  the  wrong  consisted  in  substituting  the  corn  for  the 
flour. 

A.  In  paying  extravagant  prices  for  it.  At  Sioux  City  the  rates 
which  were  paid  to  the  contractor  for  that  corn  showed  four  different 
prices  per  hundred  pounds  for  the  same  article.  The  contractor's  name 
was  Kelly.  The  price  of  the  corn  for  Fort  Peck  was  84.50  per  hundred 
pounds  delivered  at  Fort  Peck.  That  price  was  supposed  to  be  the 
price  of  corn  at  Sioux  City,  with  the  rate  of  transportation  added 
for  August.  The  rate  of  transportation  from  Sioux  City  to  Fort  Peck 
was  $2  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  that  from  ? 


646 

A.  The  contract,  sir. 

A.  Which  contract  ? 

A.  Page  274  of  the  report  of  the  investigating  committee,  document 
778  of  the  Forty-third  Congress  and  the  first  session.  Which  leaves 
$2,50  per  hundred  pounds  at  Sioux  City. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  if  there  was  any  correction  of  those  figures 
afterwards  ? 

A.  There  was  said  to  have  been,  but  he  never  returned  the  money  to 
the  Treasury,  as  he  said  he  would  do. 

Q.  Didn't  he  offer  to  do  something  else  ? 

A.  He  offered  to  furnish  the  difference  in  corn. 

Q.  Did  he  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  about  the  corn  ;  but  as  far  as  the  money  is  con 
cerned,  I  do  know  that  he  never  returned  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  there  a  contract  made  by  the  Commissioner  for  corn  at  that 
price  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  there  was  not.  It  was  a  private  arrangement  of  the  Com 
missioner  with  Wilder. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  In  what  did  that  arrangement  consist  ? 

A.  Kelly  says  that  he  made  a  proposition.  I  call  your  attention  to 
this  fact,  that  at  the  rates  paid  for  this  corn  there  were  four  prices. 
Taking  the  transportation  rate  for  August  from  the  prices  of  the  corn 
delivered  at  the  agency,  you  will  find  that  the  four  rates  at  Sioux  City 
were  $2.50,  82.10,  $1.90  and  a  fraction,  and  $1.90  per  hundred  pounds. 

Q.  Does  not  the  second  also  show  that  the  price  $2.50  was  by  mistake 
and  afterwards  corrected  ? 

A.  Yes ;  but  this  shows  afterward  that  the  money  was  paid  for  this 
one.  When  Congress  was  investigating  it,  Wilder  made  a  proposition 
to  return  the  money  ;  that  is  the  fact.  You  will  find  it  on  page  209. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  more  about  it  than  appears  in  that  docu 
ment  I 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  point  your  attention  to  the  facts  as  they  exist.  Wilder 
said  it  eight  months  after  it  was  paid.  I  give  a  statement  of  fact  that 
Wilder,  in  reply  to  a  telegram  which  you  said  you  sent,  but  did  not  pro 
duce,  made  the  correction. 

Mr.  SMITH.  This  witness  does  not  make  a  fair  statement  of  this  trans 
action. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  You  will  have  an  opportunity  to  make  a  fair  one. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Wasn't  this  the  arrangement:  that  the  flour-contractor  should 
deliver  corn  instead  of  flour  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  you  bought  the  corn  at  a  price  on  a  proposition  of 
the  contractors,  which  the  original  contract  parties,  with  the  exception 
of  yourself,  had  no  knowledge  of. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  the  August  rates.    Where  did  you  get  these  ? 

A.  The  proposition  that  the  telegram  refers  to  is  on  page  208,  which, 
in  every  case,  cites  the  price  of  corn  and  the  transportation  to  the  agency 
at  August  rates. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  August  rates  ? 


647 

A.  The  August  rate  is  $2  per  hundred  pounds,  which  is  higher  than 
the  months  in  which  the  corn  was  delivered.  In  August  the  rates  are 
higher  than  in  July  ;  August,  $2,  September  arid  October,  $2.50,  July, 
$1.25. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Does  the  reference  to  the  [freight-arrangement  pertain  to  the  Au 
gust  rates  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  nevertheless,  when  making  my  computation,  it  was  a  fair 
allowance  to  credit  him  for  the  latter  months. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Mr.  Walker,  we  shall  be  glad  to  have  you  call  our  attention  to  any 
other  matter  that  you  know. 

A.  In  the  McCann  contract,  when  the  question  of  distance  was  be 
fore  the  Indian  Committee  of  the  House  of  Bepresentatives,  Commis 
sioner  Smith  stated  to  the  committee  that  the  accounts  of  McCann 
for  May  and  June  were  held  up  until  the  distance  should  be  measured, 
and  payments  could  be  made  for  the  whole  transportation  under  this 
contract  for  the  distance  that  should  be  found  by  actual  measurement. 
Now,  there  has  not  been  a  dollar  held  back  from  McCann  under  that 
contract.  He  was  paid  every  cent  that  was  due  him  for  the  fiscal  year 
1873  and  1874  under  his  contract  for  transportation. 

Q.  You  say  "  that  was  due  him."  Do  you  mean  by  that  every  cent 
he  claimed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  every  cent  that  he  claimed  for  the  whole  distance,  two 
hundred  and  twelve  miles. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  were  not  then  or  are  not  now  other 
accounts  equally  good  which  have  not  been  paid  ? 

A.  I  know  that  there  were  not  then,  not  at  any  time  during  the  fiscal 
year  1873-'4,  any  equally  good.  But  the  specific  statement  of  the  Com- 
msisioner  is  that  McCann's  transportation-accounts  for  May  and  June, 
1874,  were  held  up  for  payment,  and  that  statement  is  untrue. 

Q.  Were  all  his  accounts  settled  ? 

A.  All  his  accounts  under  that  contract  were  settled. 

Q.  At  that  date  had  he  no  account  with  the  Indian  Office. 

A.  At  that  date  I  cannot  remember. 

Q.  At  that  date  did  the  Indian  Office  owe  him  for  services  actually 
rendered  ? 

A.  Not  under  this  contract;  and  the  other  accounts  which  you  refer  to 
are  accounts  which  were  disapproved  by  the  Board. 

Q.  At  that  time,  had  not  McCann  rendered  services  to  the  Indian 
Office  for  which  he  had  not  received  compensation  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  that. 

Q.  Was  there  not  then  due  him  actually  for  services  rendered  an 
amount  sufficient  to  cover  that  claim  ? 

A.  There  was  not;  there  was  no  approved  claim  at  that  time  of  Mc 
Cann's. 

Q.  I  ask  you  if  you  know  whether  McCann  had  not  then  actually  ren 
dered  the  Indian  Office  services  for  which  it  was  bound  to  pay,  and  which 
was  sufficient  to  adjust  that  difference  J? 

A.  He  had  not;  he  had  no  approved  just  claim  before  the  Department 
at  that  time. 

Q.  I  ask  if  you  know  ? 


648 

A.  A  man  may  have  a  claim  in  the  Indian  Department  which  is  not  a 
just  one. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  only  question  is  whether  you  will  answer  the  question. 

The  CHAIRMAN.   He  did  answer  the  question. 

A.  The  definite  statement  was,  that  the  accounts  of  McCann  for  May 
and  June  were  held  up. 

Q.  IsthatalH 

A.  If  you  will  refer  to  page  217  of  the  same  document,  you  will  see 
that  Commissioner  Smith  made  a  report  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior 
that  the  price  allowed  for  corn  "under  that  agreement  was  the  lowest 
market-price  at  Sioux  City,  with  freight  from  that  point  to  the  respect 
ive  agencies.  That  statement  was  made  with  reference  to  those  four 
prices  which  I  pointed  out,  and  it  was  untrue. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  Was  it  not  also  stated  before  the  committee  to  be  a  mistake  ? 

A.  ]STo,  sir;  you  said  you  did  not  know  it  was  a  mistake. until  your 
attention  was  called  to  it. 

Mr.  SMITH.  It  is  in  there  subsequently,  in  the  cross-examination. 

WITNESS.  I  refer  now7  to  Executive  Document  123,  Forty-third  Con 
gress,  first  session,  page  42.  In  reference  to  McCann's  accounts,  Commis 
sioner  Smith  says  the  parties  taking  affidavits  of  other  persons,  freight 
ers,  have  made  the  distance  greater  than  thus  presented,  and  that 
all  action  in  the  matter  has  been  ex  parte,  and  designedly  so.  He  re 
ferred  thereto  the  affidavits  submitted  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners,  which  were  those  of  McCann's  employes,  and  were  ex  parte  only 
in  the  sense  of  being  as  favorable  as  could  be  for  the  contractor. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  contractor  or  anybody  else,  who  would 
be  affected  by  your  investigation,  had  notice  of  your  intention  to  take 
the  affidavits,  so  as  to  give  him  an  opportunity  to  be  present  ? 

A.  The  contractor's  agent  procured  the  affidavits.  1  went  with  the 
person  who  was  acting  as  the  contractor's  agent,  and  asked  him  the 
distance. 

Q.  Did  you  write  the  affidavits  ? 

A.  I  wrote  one  of  them,  and  he  wrote  the  other  when  I  was  at  the 
Eed  Cloud  agency,  and  gave  it  to  me  when  I  carae  back. 

By  Mr.  SMITH  : 

Q.  W7as  not  McCann  in  a  quarrel  with  the  contractors  ? 

A.  The  question  is  unfortunate  for  you;  he  was  in  a  quarrel  in  this 
way :  he  was  paying  them  for  a  shorter  distance  than  they  supposed  it 
was. 

Q.  Wasn't  he  in  a  quarrel  with  them  about  payment  at  all  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  paying  them  for  a  shorter  distance  than  they  im 
agined  it  was  ;  they  wanted  to  get  pay  for  one  hundred  and  eighty-six 
miles,  and  he  was  only  paying  them  for  one  hundred  and  seventy-five. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  he  paying  them  by  the  hundred  pounds  per  hundred  miles, 
or  so  much  for  the  whole  distance  ? 

A.  Part  of  Hecht's  contract  was  that  he  was  to  be  paid  a  dollar  per 
hundred  pounds  for  the  whole  distance;  then,  when  the  new  contract 


649 

was  made,  he  effected  different  arrangements  with  them.  Under  the 
new  contract,  for  the  removal  to  the  new  Eed  Cloud  agency,  Hecht  was 
to  receive  during  December,  1873,  and  January,  February,  March,  and 
April,  1874,  $1.20  per  hundred  pounds  from  Cheyenne  to  the  old  agency, 
and  12  cents  per  hundred  pounds  for  each  additional  ten  miles  to  the 
new  agency. 

Q.  In  speaking  of  the  affidavits  as  being  ex  parte,  what  is  it  you  wish 
to  call  our  attention  to  in  reference  to  the  matter  that  is  wrong  ? 

A.  As  an  indication  of  the  fact  that  Commissioner  Smith  was  making 
a  special  pleading  for  the  contractor ;  that  is  all. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  understand  that  they  were  employes  of  his,  contending  with  him  ; 
were  they  in  friendly  relations  with  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  still  having  a  controversy  with  him.  The  question 
of  distance  was  an  unsettled  point. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Was  the  interest  of  the  employes  who  made  the  affidavits  for  or 
against  the  interest  of  -McCann  in  the  matter  of  the  statement  they 
would  make  about  the  distance  ? 

A.  For  his  interest,  of  course. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Were  they  stating  it  less  than  the  distance  McCann  was  claim 
ing  it? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  they  were  stating  it  as  a  distance  beyond  what  he  was 
paying  them  for. 

Q.  Did  they  understand  the  distance  as  claimed  by  McCann  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  then  say  that  their  statements  are  in  his  favor  ? 

A.  None  of  the  contractors  knew  the  distance  the  Government  was 
paying  him  for  ;  they  understood  that  they  were  doing  him  a  good  turn. 
They  thought  it  ought  to  be  increased,  and  that  he  would  pay  them  ; 
that  was  their  statement  to  me.  I  think  those  same  men  testified  to 
those  very  facts  before  your  committee,  and  I  am  sure  of  one  thing — that 
they  didn't  know  what  McCann  was  being  paid  for. 

Q.  Then  it  cannot  be  said  that  they  were  in  his  favor  or  against  him  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  therefore,  coming  back  to  the  question,  were  they  not  ex 
clusively  ex  parte  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not;  not  ex  parte  in  the  sense  in  which  the  Com 
missioner  stated  it,  if  you  will  read  the  whole  letter. 


v  WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  Monday,  September  13,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman;  Prof.  GEORGE  W. 
ATHERTON,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  was  also  present. 

Examination  of  SAMUEL  WALKER  resumed. 

WITNESS.  I  wish  to  complete  my  testimony  on  the  McCann  contract. 
The  amount  transported  was  about  three  millions  of  pounds  for  the 
estimated  distance  145  miles. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Mr.  Chairman,  is  this  gentleman  testifying  from  his  own 
knowledge,  or  from  records  that  are  open  to  us  ?  I  certainly  have  sacri- 


G50 

ficed  to  this  matter  all  the  time  I  can  afford  to  give,  and  I  cannot  spend 
my  time  allowing  the  gentleman  to  argue  from  the  public  records,  it'  he  is 
so  arguing  from  records  which  are  open  to  us. 

WITNESS.  The  letter  of  the  commission  asked  me  for  information,  and 
I  give  them  all  the  information  I  have  on  the  points. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Of  course  we  do  not  want  your  mere  conclusions 
from  the  testimony. 

WITNESS.  I  just  state  the  conclusion  I  would  give  to  anybody  on  the 
subject.  If  you  don't  want  it,  of  course  I  don't  want  to  give  it.  The 
letter  asked  me  for  information  on  the  points  at  issue.  If  you  wish  to 
place  any  restrictions  on  me  and  will  tell  me  how  far  I  may  go,  1  will 
govern  myself  by  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  If  he  is  reading  from  public  records  and  arguing  from 
them,  it  is  not  testimony;  it  is  an  attempt,  it1  such  be  the  fact,  to  argue 
from  the  testimony  of  other  people  and  from  the  public  records,  and  not 
to  testify.  Those  records  are  open  to  us,  and  I  don't  think  we  ought  to 
spend  our  time  in  hearing  arguments  upon  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  is  the  information  you  have  to  give  us? 

Answer.  It  is  information  upon  the  contract  upon  which  I  have  given  tes 
timony;  I  am  referring  to  my  own  testimony,  and  I  wish  to  complete  my 
evidence  as  to  the  McCann  contract.  I  will  state  that  these  surplus  pay 
ments  made  to  him  for  distance  beyond  which  he  is  entitled  to,  if  it  was 
145  miles,  amounts  to  an  overpayment  of  $57,000,  and  if  it  was  165  miles, 
he  was  overpaid  $39,900. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  that  information  ? 

A.  From  the  advertisement  for  supplies,  and  the  amount  of  corn  and 
flour,  and  beef,  and  sugar,  and  annuity-goods  passed  for  the  year. 

Q.  Do  you  state  that  there  was  that  much  transported  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  Not  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  from 
the  papers  that  w^ent  through  my  hands,  in  that  year. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Of  course  I  submit  to  the  judgment  of  the  committee, 
but  I  feel  it  to  be  an  imposition  upon  me  to  be  compelled  to  sit  and  hear 
arguments  made  upon  facts  which  are  not  within  the  personal  knowl 
edge  of  the  witness,  but  wrhich  are  facts  of  public  record,  which  we 
have  called  for,  and  which  are  in  our  possession. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  What  is  the  pleasure  of  the  committee  about  it? 
Certainly  if  it  is  not  the  correct  amount  transported,  wre  will  be  able  to 
ascertain  it. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  do  not  presume  this  gentleman  is  stating  anything 
that  is  not  in  the  public  records.  I  presume  he  is  stating  it  correctly, 
but  we  have  it  all. 

WITNE&S.  The  point  of  my  testimony  is,  I  am  speaking'of  a  period 
that  is  gone  by,  but  my  personal  knowledge  of  that  is  asked  for. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  personal  knowledge  have  you  ? 

A.  As  clerk  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  That  is  all.  I 
was  asked  on  the  point  as  to  whether  there  was  any  knowledge  of  the 
officers  of  the  Interior  Department,  of  any  irregularity  before  Professor 
Marsh's  statement  was  made.  I  said  I  knew  of  them,  and  proceeded 
to  state  them  and  my  conclusions  upon  them.  I  suppose  there  is  no  ob 
jection  to  that. 


651 

Q.  Your  conclusions  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  state  the  facts.  We  don't  want  anybody's  help  about 
conclusions. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  The  conclusions  we  will  arrive  at  ourselves,  if  you 
give  us  the  facts. 

WITNESS.  Under  those  circumstances  I  will  say  that  in  coming  here 
I  was  prepared  to  give  you  all  the  information  I  had,  but  I  can  simply 
refer  you  to  the  records  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  and  you 
can  get  everything  I  say.  I  refer  you  to  letters  D,  W,  and  K,  for  1872, 
1873,  and  1874.  Those  letters  will*  give  you  all  the  information  I 
have.  They  are  in  the  office  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 
They  are  letters  received  from  the  Commissioner,  and  they  refer  you 
to  the  originals  from  the  Interior  Department. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  by  letters  the  index  letters  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  mean  the  index  letters  5  they  are  in  file  shape,  so  that 
the  clerk  can  give  you  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Well,  go  on  with  what  you  were  proceeding  to  tell  us. 

A.  No,  sir.  I  cannot  tell  you  anything  more  than  you  can  find  there. 
You  can  get  all  the  information  I  can  give  you  in  those  papers,  and  in  a 
condensed  form. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  suppose  all  the  information  you  have  is  derived  from  those  pa 
pers. 
A.  Except  from  my  personal  visit  to  Eed  Cloud  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  And  that  is  contained  in  your  report? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  are  now  referring  us  to  the  sources  of  the  information  which 
you  are  giving  us  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  other  knowledge  of  any  matters  that  are  perti 
nent  to  the  inquiry  of  this  commission,  except  what  we  can  find  there  ? 

A.  Except  what  you  will  find  in  the  files  of  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners — no,  sir.  Everything  I  have  stated  here  will  be  con 
firmed  by  those  documents,  it'  the  files  are  complete.  I  know  they 
could  be  confirmed  by  those  files  when  I  left  them. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  matters  within  your  knowledge,  or  the  knowl 
edge  of  persons  to  whom  you  can  refer  us,  relating  to  any  of  these 
charges  and  specifications  contained  in  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet, 
besides  those  you  have  already  referred  us  to  ? 

A.  No ;  except  from  public  records  which  you  have  access  to.  All 
the  information  I  have  is  from  public  records/  Some,  of  course,  is  from 
private  sources,  but  I  do  not  feel  at  liberty  to  give  those  now.  But 
the  main  part  of  my  information  can  be  confirmed  by  the  public  records 
as  they  stand  now. 


652 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Where  are  the  records  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners? 

A.  On  Seventh  street,  in  the  Second  National  Bank  building. 

Q.  Can  you  make  any  further  reference  within  your  own  knowledge  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Of  course  you  have  the  report  of  the  Board  of  that  year. 
Their  records  will  show  the  action  of  the  Board  on  the  accounts  in 
1873,  and  their  opinion  on  them,  I  think,  as  they  sent  them  to  the  In 
terior  Department  and  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  We 
took  copies  of  everything  that  was  objectionable,  and  filed  them  away 
there  for  future  reference. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Walker,  in  your  statement  to  us  on  Saturday,  the  mat 
ters  that  you  name  there  as  going  to  establish  the  charge  that  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  and  Secretary  of  the  Interior  have  been 
aware  of  the  abuses  and  have  made  no  sincere  effort  to  reform  them, 
are  made  from  what  documents  ? 

A.  The  congressional  documents  I  refer  to  are  the  Forty-third  Con 
gress,  first  session  ;  the  report  of  Messrs.  Keinble  and  Alvord;  and  the 
fact  that  Commissioner  Alvord  communicated  to  me  that  he  gave 
Secretary  Delano  knowledge  of  considerable  more  than  he  put  on 
paper.  I  know  that  some  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  commu 
nicated  with  the  Secretary  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  their  communications  to  him  were  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  but  they  will  all  be  found  in  those  records  I  told  you  of. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  persons  whom  you  can  name  to  us  as  being 
likely  to  afford  us  any  personal  information  about  these  matters? 

A.  The  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  could  testify, 
and  he  could  corroborate  all  I  could  say  on  the  subject — I  mean  the 
former  secretary,  Mr.  Cree,  the  secretary  who  resigned  the  time  I  did. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  documents  which  you  can  refer  us  to  as  going 
to  establish  any  of  these  charges  besides  these  that  you  have  read  from 
and  have  referred  us  to  ? 

A.  It  would  take  some  time  to  think  about  that.  By  going  over  the 
files,  I  could  probably  refer  to  a  good  many  papers. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  I  should  be  glad  if  Mr.  Walker  could  give  us  a  list 
of  those  papers. 

WITNESS.  It  is  so  long,  I  could  not  make  a  list  from  memory.  I  re 
fer  you  to  those  index-letters,  because  the  transactions  that  were  objec 
tionable  were  in  the  name  of  Dodge,  Kelly,  and  Wilder,  and  they  were 
filed  under  the  letters  of  D,  K,  and  W,  and  also  under  the  letter  S,  for 
the  name  of  Slaveus. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Those  were  letters  between  the  Commissioners  and  the  Depart 
ment  ? 

A.  The  names  of  contractors. 

Q.  The  letters  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  The  letters  refer  to  the  names  of  the  contractors  who  had  objec 
tionable  accounts. 

Q.  I  ask  if  the  letters  were  between  the  Department  and  the  Com 
missioners  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  You  will  find  the  original  letters  there,  and  copies  of  the 
Commissioners'  letters  to  the  Department. 


653 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  have  recently,  I  believe,  been  writing  some  letters  published 
in  the  newspapers  in  reference  to  this  subject1? 

A.  Yes,  sir  $  I  would  just  say  here  about  that,  that  they  are  all  from 
records  also ;  you  can  find  them  in  the  same  papers. 

Q.  I  was  going  to  ask  you  how  many  of  those  letters  there  were  and 
where  we  might  obtain  them. 

A.  The  Capital  newspaper  of  this  city  contains  some  of  them. 

Q.  Where  are  the  others  ? 

A.  They  are  spread  all  over  ;  I  cannot  tell  you  how  many  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  copies  of  them  that  you  could  furnish  us  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  have  ;  I  don't  think  I  have  copies  of  all  of  them. 

Q.  You  don't  remember  the  number  you  have  written  ? 

A.  No,  sir  $  I  do  not  remember  all  I  wrote  at  various  times  on  the 
subject. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  articles  and  letters  have  you  published  since  the  20th  of 
July,  or  thereabouts — articles  which  you  have  prepared  ? 

A.  I  have  written  those  Capital  letters  over  my  own  name. 

Q.  Have  you  written  other  letters,  since  they  have  been  published, 
under  any  other  name  ? 

A.  I  have  written  other  letters  5  I  do  not  wish  to  say  what  I  have 
written. 

Q.  Did  you  write  an  article  that  appeared  in  the  New  York  papers  ? 

A.  I  would  rather  you  would  riot  ask  me  on  that  subject — what  articles 
I  have  written. 

Q.  Have  you  written  any  articles  over  the  signature  of  "  Fidelis"  that 
appeared  in  print! 

[No  answer.] 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER: 

Q.  Is  there  anything  farther  which  you  desire  to  communicate  to  the 
commission  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

*Q.  Who  is  at  present  the  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  ? 

A.  I  think  Mr.  Frank  H.  Smith  is  secretary,  and  Mr.  Whittlesy  is 
clerk. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  were  clerk  there  ? 

A.  Last  June  a  year  ago  I  resigned,  to  date  the  30th  of  June,  1874. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  clerk  there? 

A.  Three  years. 

The  CHAIRMAN  (to  Professor  Marsh):  Professor  Marsh,  is  there  any 
inquiry  you  would  like  to  make  of  Mr.  Walker? 
Professor  MARSH.  There  is  none. 


654 


TESTIMONY  OF  DR.  C.  C.  COX. 

Dr.  0.  C.  Cox,  of  Washington,  D.  C.,  having  responded  to  the  request 
for  his  appearance,  the  chairman  invited  Professor  Marsh  to  make  such 
inquiries  as  he  desired  of  Dr.  Cox. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Question.  When  were  you  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  Doctor  ? 

Answer.  Last  summer,  Professor;  the  summer  of  1874. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  Going  on  to  Whetstone,  I  think  vre  stopped  two  days  and  a  half. 
I  think  we  were  there  over  Sunday  ;  I  think  we  had  service  there ;  and 
I  believe  that,  in  returning,  (I  was  not  with  the  commission  on  the 
return-trip,  I  stopped  there  alone,)  1  was  there  about  the  same  time, 
probably  two  days;  at  least  two  days;  I  think  not  more  than  that. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  indicating  mismanagement  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  did  not  see  the  slightest  evidence  of  mismanagement.  I  did  not 
investigate  any  of  the  affairs  of  the  agency.  There  were  some  matters 
left  for  the  commission  to  look  into  which  they  attended  to  after  I  left. 
I  went  about  through  the  stockade  and  into  the  stores  of  the  parties  who 
had  goods  to  dispose  of  and  distribute,  I  mingled  with  the  Indians  a 
good  deal,  I  stopped  several  hours  at  Yellow-Hair's  camp  on  my  way 
from  Whetstone  to  Eed  Cloud,  and  I  saw  nothing  of  the  kind.  Of  course 
my  attention  was  not  directed  to  anything  of  the  sort,  but  nothing  came 
under  my  observation  that  led  me  to  infer  any  mismanagement. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  supplies  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  saw  at  Yellow-Hair's  camp  some  bread,  or  rather  short-cake,  flat 
cake,  made,  I  suppose,  of  the  usual  flour,  and  ate  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  supplies  ? 

A.  I  did  not  examine  the  supplies  ;  I  was  in  the  stores,  and  I  saw  the 
general  character  of  the  supplies,  but  I  did  not  inspect  minutely  any 
particular  article  of  supplies. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  the  flour? 

A.  I  did  not  see  the  flour  at  the  agencies  at  all.  There  was  some  flour 
shown  to  me  after  I  got  to  Cheyenne,  on  the  way  back,  by  Colonel  Long, 
of  the  Army,  who  was,  I  believe,  at  that  time  appointed  to  inspect  the 
flour. 

Q.  What  did  you  think  of  that  flour! 

A.  I  am  no  judge  of  flour  at  all.  He  showed  me  several  specimens, 
some  of  which  looked  rather  dark  in  color,  not  very  white  flour;  but  I 
saw  nothing  else  about  it  that  would  lead  me  to  infer  that  the  flour  was 
of  an  inferior  quality  except  the  color.  As  I  said  before,  I  am  no  judge 
of  flour,  and,  of  course,  I  could  not  pretend  to  form  an  intelligent  opinion 
on  that  point. 

Q.  Had  you  any  conversation  with  any  Army  officers,  in  speaking 
about  the  flour  or  anything  else,  indicating  that  matters  were  not  all 
right  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  to  my  knowledge — never. 

Q.  And  did  you  say  that  you  should  give  the  information  on  those 
subjects  to  the  Department  when  you  came  back? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  give  any  information  to  the  Department  when  you  came 
back? 

A.  I  received  a  note  from  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
stating  that  complaints  had  been  made  in  regard  to  the  flour,  particu- 


655 

larly,  and  some  other  things,  and  desiring  to  know  if  I  knew  anything 
about  them.  I  believe  I  have  that  letter  in  my  scrap-book.  Within  an 
hour,  I  addressed  a  note  to  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  to  the 
effect  simply  that  I  had  seen  nothing  in  my  observations  at  the  agen 
cies  which  led  me  to  infer  anything  wrong  about  the  supplies ;  that 
some  flour^had  been  shown  to  me  in  Cheyenne  which  was  said  to  be  im 
pure,  imperfect  flour,  but  that  I  knew  nothing  at  all  about  its  real  quality, 
and  had  no  knowledge  of  any  frauds  or  improprieties,  if  any  such  ex 
isted. 

Q.  Did  you  speak  of  the  quality  of  this  flour,  particularly,  in  your 
letter  to  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  I  really  am  not  sure.  I  can  get  a  copy  of  the  letter  from  my  office 
across  the  street  in  a  few  minutes  if  you  would  like  to  see  it. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  would  like  to  see  it.  Those  are  all  the  questions 
I  wish  to  ask. 

WITNESS.  I  would  like,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  it  would  be'proper,  to  state 
some  impressions  I  have  had  in  regard  to  the  Indian  matter,  if  it  is  a 
part  of  your  investigation. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  It  would  be  proper,  and  we  would  be  very  glad  to 
hear  any  observations  or  impressions  that  will  aid  us  in  comingto  a  cor 
rect  conclusion  in  relation  to  this  Indian  matter. 

WITNESS.  Well,  sir,  I  had  never  visited  the  Indian  country  before, 
and  of  course  all  my  impressions  are  fresh  and  unmodified  by  any  pre 
vious  circumstances  or  conditions.  I  did  not  hear  an  Indian— I  mingled 
with  a  good  many  of  them — I  did  not  hear  a  solitary  Indian  complain 
particularly  of  the  quality  of  the  articles  furnished.  There  was  a  good 
deal  of  complaint,  both  in  the  council  and  outside,  on  all  occasions,  to 
the  general  effect  that  the  needs  of  the  Indians  had  not  been  fully  sup 
plied,  and  that  the  Great  Father  and  his  officers  had  violated  all  their 
promises  and  pledges  to  the  Indians.  That  was  the  burden  of  their 
song  from  the  time  I  entered  the  Territory  until  I  left  it.  My  impres 
sion  was  that  a  little  less  indulgence  and  a  little  more  authority  would 
be  better  for  the  Indian  and  the  Government.  A  more  determined  set 
of  chronic  grumblers  and  complaiuers  I  never  saw. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Their  complaint  was  as  to  the  quantity  and  not  the  quality  ? 

A.  I  heard  no  complaint  as  to  the  quality  at  all.  Their  complaint 
was,  that  the  general  needs  of  the  tribes  were  not  supplied,  and  that  all 
the  treaties  and  all  the  promises  that  had  ever  been  made  by  the  Great 
Father  and  his  officers  had  been  violated.  They  could  not  talk  in  the 
council — could  not  make  a  five-minutes'  speech — without  running  into 
that  rut. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  you  say  nothing  to  Colonel  Long  condemnatory  of  the  flour 
you  saw  at  the  warehouse  there  at  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  Not  at  all,  sir ;  I  never  said  anything  j  I  did  not  know  anything 
about  the  flour ;  I  may  have  observed  that  the  flour  looked  very  dark, 
no  doubt  I  did,  for  the  flour  he  showed  me  had  a  dark  appearance.  He 
exhibited  to  me  at  the  hotel  samples  of  flour  furnished  which  he  con 
sidered  improper  and  impure  flour.  Not  being  an  expert,  of  course  I 
could  not  express  an  opinion  as  to  the  merits  of  the  flour,  except  as  to 
the  color ;  and  I  did  not. 

Q.  Your  letter  referred  to  the  opinion  of  Colonel  Long  on  the  sub 
ject,  or  to  what  you  saw  yourself! 


656 

A.  I  think  it  did,  Professor.  I  would  like  to  get  that  letter  and  bring 
it  right  across  to  you. 

[The  witness  procured  and  produced  the  letter,  as  follows :] 

THURSDAY,  October  8,  1874. 

MY  DEAR  SIR  :  I  have  just  read  with  some  surprise  the  telegram  to  which  your  favor  of 
this  date  alludes. 

During1  my  sojourn  at  Whetstone  and  Red  Cloud  agencies,  I  heard  nothing  of  the  irregu 
larities  or  frauds  referred  to.  In  the  councils  held,  and  the  private  conferences  with  the  In 
dians,  the  usual  complaints  were  made  by  them  of  inadequate  provisions  for  their  need,  and 
unfulfilled  promises  on  the  part  of  the  Great  Father  and  his  officials,  but  no  attention  was 
paid  to  murmurs  which  are  constitutional  and  chronic,  and  doubtless  without  foundation  in 
fact.  I  did  learn  at  Cheyenne  that  the  flour  furnished  by  the  contractor  was  generally  of 
very  inferior  quality,  and  had  been  condemned  by  Colonel  Long,  the  military  inspector,  but 
knew  nothing  whatever  of  any  improprieties  or  frauds  on  the  part  of  the  agents. 
r-  My  office  is  crowded  with  visitors  just  now,  and  I  am  obliged  to  be  more  hurried  than  I 
desire.  During  my  rides  this  morning,  I  will  do  myself  the  pleasure  of  calling  upon  you  at 
your  office. 

Always,  respectfully  and  truly ,  yours, 

CHRIS.  C.  COX. 
Hon.  Mr.  COWEN, 

Assistant  Secretary  Interior. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  about  Yellow-Hair's  short-cake,  which  you 
tasted.  What  kind  of  cake  was  it  ! 

A.  It  was  not  exactly  the  kind  of  short-cake  I  should  prefer  to  have 
on  my  own  table,  and  I  suppose  I  should  hardly  have  eaten  it  if  it  had 
been  shown  to  me  in  Washington.  I  found  nothing  objectionable  in  it 
except  that  it  was  a  little  close,  sodden — imperfectly  made.  I  don't 
think  the  Indians  understand  the  use  of  yeast  or  rising-powders;  and 
it  was  a  little  dark,  but  it  was  sweet.  It  tasted  very  well  to  me,  be 
cause  I  was  very  hungry  and  very  tired,  and  I  did  not  inspect  it  very 
closely.  I  went  upon  Saint  Paul's  maxim — to  eat  what  was  set  before 
me,  and  ask  no  questions. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  saw  nothing  wrong  with  the  nutritious  properties  of  the 
flour? 

A.  Not  at  all.  I  was  in  a  very  delicate  state  of  health  at  the  time, 
and  my  stomach  would  have  revolted  against  anything  very  injurious 
in  its  quality. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  have  not  stated  in  what  capacity  you  were  out  in  the  Indian 
country. 

A.  I  was  there  as  a  member  of  the  special  com  mission,  to  treat  with 
the  Indians  in  regard  to  two  subjects  :  one  the  surrender  of  their  huut- 
ing.grounds  in  Nebraska,  and  the  other  (which,  I  believe,  is  a  stereo 
typed  subject)  the  surrender  of  the  unceded  territory,  though  it  has 
never  been  broached,  I  believe,  by  any  commission  until  the  present 
time.  There  was  nothing  said  by  our  commission  on  that  subject. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  think  you  said  that  was  your  first  visit  to  the  Indian  country  ? 
A.  The  first  visit.     I  had  never  seen  an   Indian   before  except  as  he 
had  passed  through  the  streets  of  Washington. 


657 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 
Wednesday ',  September  15,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman ;    Hon.  TIMOTHY 
O.  HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Pro 
fessor  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 
Professor  MARSH  was  also  present. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  (To  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs)  Mr.  Com 
missioner,  we  invited  you  to  meet  with  us  this  morning  in  order  that  you 
might  make  such  statements  with  reference  to  the  charges  contained  in 
the  pamphlet  of  Professor  Marsh  as  you  may  see  proper  to  make;  and 
we  then  propose  to  ask  Dr.  Bevier  about  such  matters  as  Professor 
Marsh  wishes  to  inquire  of  him.  We  may  desire  to  recall  you  for  the 
purpose  of  asking  you  some  questions  if  we  find  that  those  we  had 
designed  asking  are  not  covered  by  the  statement  you  will  make  to  us 
this  morning. 

Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  then  read  the  fol 
lowing  statement  in  reply  to  Professor  Marsh's  charges  : 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  E.  P.  SMITH. 

Sometime  about  the  20th  of  April  last,  Professor  Marsh  came  to  my  of 
fice  bringing  packages  of  coffee,  sugar,  tobacco,  and  flour,  which  he  said 
he  had  brought  from  Red  Cloud  agency.  He  explained  that  he  was  now 
fulfilling  a  promise  which  he  had  made  to  Red  Cloud.  That  while  at  the 
Red  Cloud  agency,  in  October  or  November  previous,  he  had  found 
difficulty  in  getting  permission  of  the  Indians  to  go  past  the  agency,  in 
to  their  country  in  search  of  fossils ;  and  as  an  inducement  to  Red 
Cloud  to  procure  this  permission  for  him,  he  had  offered  to  bring  any 
complaints  which  that  chief  should  desire  to  make  concerning  his  agent, 
to  the  President;  and  that,  in  pursuance  of  this  agreement  between  him 
and  Red  Cloud,  that  Indian  had  made  many  grievous  charges  against 
his  agent  and  his  administration  of  affairs.  And  had  also  given  him 
these  packages  of  supplies  as  genuine  samples  of  the  food  which  his 
agent  was  giving  him.  In  answer  to  my  inquiries,  he  said  that  he  had 
not  in  any  way  tested  these  samples  by  comparison  with  supplies  which 
were  then  being  issued  by  the  agent,  and  that  he  did  not  put  great  con 
fidence  in  Red  Cloud's  statement.  Mr.  Marsh  also  spoke  of  the  confu 
sion  which  he  witnessed  at  the  agency,  of  the  agent's  want  of  courage 
and  coolness  at  the  time  of  a  threatened  outbreak,  and  of  his  lack  of 
system  in  issuing  annuity-goods,  clearly  indicating,  as  Mr.  Marsh 
thought,  an  incornpetency  on  the  part  of  the  agent  for  his  responsible 
position,  admitting  at  the  same  time  that  the  position  was  one  involv 
ing  responsibility  equal  to  that  of  the  governorship  of  the  State  of  Con 
necticut.  On  this  point  we  agreed  in  our  views. 

He  made  no  charges  of  fraudulent  transactions  on  the  part  of  Agent 
Saville,  except  in  the  name  of  Red  Cloud,  saying  that  Red  Cloud  claimed 
and  repeatedly  declared  that  his  agent  was  cheating  him. 

The  interview,  so  far  as  I  was  concerned,  was  a  pleasant  one,  and,  as 

Professor  Marsh  stated  to  me,  had  been  brought  about  because  some  time 

previous,  when  giving  him  a  letter  of  credit  to  Red  Cloud  and  the  officers 

of  the  Bureau  in  his  country,  I  had  requested  him  if  he  should  ob- 

42  IF 


658 

serve  any  tiling  deserving  my  attention  that  needed  to  be  corrected,  to 
make  a  note  of  it  for  my  information. 

The  next  morning  an  account  of  this  interview  between  Professor 
Marsh  and  myself  appeared  in  a  Xew  York  paper,  giving  an  incorrect  and 
entirely  unfair  version  ;  which  was  made  the  test  of  very  severe  and  un 
just  criticism  of  the  Interior  Department,  and  especially  of  my  own  offi 
cial  action,  using  Professor  Marsh's  well-known  name  and  position  to  give 
force  and  circulation  to  the  statement.  In  all  these  attacks  of  the  press 
great  emphasis  was  laid  upon  the  quality  of  supplies  which,  according  to 
l\ed  Cloud's  samples,  had  been  furnished  the  Indians.  The  Indian's 
samples  and  his  story  of  having  been  wronged  were  rarely  mentioned 
except  in  connection  with  the  name  and  character  of  the  distinguished 
professor,  who  had  volunteered  to  take  them  to  the  President  in  person, 
and  who,  by  so  doing",  became  in  the  minds  of  all  who  read  the  accounts 
the  endorser  of  both  the  samples  and  the  story,  neither  of  which  were  true. 
The  newspaper  version  was  so  far  from  being  true,  and  the  criticism  and 
charges  founded  upon  it  so  unjust  that  I  was  sure  Professor  Marsh  would 
be  mortified  by  the  false  attitude  in  which  he  had  been  placed  toward 
myself,  and  I  confidently  expected  as  a  matter  of  courtesy  and  honor  that 
he  at  once  would  correct  them,  especially  in  view  of  the  fact  that  all  the 
information  given  to  the  press  on  this  subject  had  come  exclusively  from 
himself,  and  that  he  was  known  to  be  in  intimate  relation  with  the  paper 
in  which  it  appeared.  Mr.  Marsh  did  not  make  any  such  corrections.  On 
the  contrary,  he  allowed  the  continued  misrepresentations,  based  upon 
an  incorrect  version  of  the  matter,  and  especially  based  upon  the  sam 
ples  he  had  brought,  to  receive  a  very  wide  circulation  of  the  press 
without  any  denial  from  himself.  When  a  man  has  wronged  another 
unintentionally  or  otherwise,  two  courses  are  open  to  him  :  to  make 
reparation,  or  to  endeavor  to  justify  his  action.  Professor  Marsh  has 
seen  fit  to  adopt  the  latter  course. 

A  few  days  after  Professor  Marsh  was  invited  before  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners,  to  whom  he  gave  a  much  more  extended  account 
of  his  Ked  Cloud  observations  and  inferences;  upon  which  statement  the 
board  immediately  took  action  by  appointing  a  committee  of  their  own 
number  to  investigate  and  report  the  facts. 

This  committee,  not  being  ready  to  proceed  at  once  to  the  investiga 
tion,  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  requested  the  chairman  of  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners  to  name  suitable  persons  to  form  a  commission 
to  take  the  whole  matter  into  inquiry,  and  report.  Much  time  was  con 
sumed  in  the  composition  of  this  commission,  owing  to  the  inability  of 
persons  invited  to  serve. 

Among  those  who  thus  declined  were  Hon.  II.  A.  Bullock,  of  Massa 
chusetts";  G.  W.  Lane,  of  the  Board  of  Trade  of  New  York ;  Senator 
Stevenson,  of  Kentucky;  Senator  Washburn,  of  Massachusetts  ;  Pro 
fessor  Seely,  of  Amherst  College;  and  Senator  Morrill,  of  Maine. 

While  this  commission  was  being  procured  Mr.  Marsh  was  in  Wash 
ington  frequently,  and  was  present  at  a  council  held  with  Red  Cloud 
and  his  delegates  for  the  special  purpose  of  hearing  the  complaints  he 
had  to  make  respecting  his  supplies  and  his  agent.  The  opportunity 
given  that  chief  and  his  band  to  state  their  grievances  was  most  ample. 
The  record  of  this  council  will  ishow  that  lied  Cloud's  grievances,  as  pre 
sented  in  person,  were  not  serious,  and  that  no  complaint  was  made  by 
him  against  his  agent  until  drawn  out  from  him  by  the  inquiry  of  Mr. 
Marsh,  whether  he  u  was  perfectly  satisfied  with  his  agent.'7  At  one  of 
the  frequent  interviews  held  with  Mr.  Marsh  about  this  time,  1  called 


C59 

his  attention  to  the  injustice  which  he  had  done  Agent  Saville  in  con 
senting  to  be  the  bearer  of  Eed  Cloud's  complaints  witnout  having  in 
formed  himself  by  personal  inspection  as  to  the  character  of  the  sup 
plies  at  the  agency  whether  the  articles  Bed  Cloud  had  given  him  were 
actually  samples  of  the  supplies  delivered.  Professor  Marsh  replied  that 
I  must  recollect  Ked  Cloud's  position;  that  he  was  the  acknowledged 
head  of  that  people,  in  a  similar  relation  to  the  Sioux  that  President 
Grant  holds  to  the  people  of  the  United  States,  and  that  it  would  have 
hardly  been  in  accordance  with  Eed  Cloud's  notion  of  etiquette  or 
propriety  for  him,  the  Professor,  to  seem  in  any  way  to  question  his 
word  or  fairness. 

Relative  to  the  allegations  of  inferior  supplies  furnished  Eed  Cloud 
agency,  I  have  only  to  say  that  the  purchases  were  made  on  contracts 
entered  into  in  pursuance  of  bids  offered,  and  public!}7  read  in  New 
York  on  the  second  day  of  July,  1874.  The  sugar  was  furnished  by  E. 
C.  Knight  £  Co.,  of  Philadelphia ;  the  coffee  by  B.  G.  Arnold  &  Co.,  of 
New  York  ;  the  tobacco  by  Dohan,  Carroll  &  Co.,  of  New  York ;  the 
flour  by  J.  H.  Martin,  of  Denver,  Colorado.  The  award  of  these 
contracts  to  these  parties  was  made  in  accordance  with  the  advice  of 
the  board  of  Indian  commissioners,  who  had  before  them  all  the  bids,  and 
upon  the  judgment  of  the  inspector  of  the  samples  as  to  which  offered 
the  best  value,  and  therefore  constituted  the  best  bids  in  each  case  for 
the  Government  to  accept. 

The  inspector  for  flour  was  E.  E.  Livermore,  of  the  Flour  Exchange  of 
New  York  City,  who  was  recommended  by  the  president  of  the  exchange. 
His  ability  and  integrity  will  not  be  questioned  by  flour-dealers  in  New 
York.  The  tobacco-contract  was  entered  into  after  three  inspections, 
resulting  in  the  award  being  given  to  the  parties  to  whom  the  second 
inspector,  W.  A.  Eobinson,  had  made  it;  the  award  of  coffee  was 
given  on  the  inspection  and  recommendation  of  Thomas  J.  Barr ;  the 
sugar,  on  the  inspection  and  recommendation  of  C.  B.  Kneval  5  the 
blankets  were  purchased  on  the  inspection  and  judgment  of  C.  B.  Wil- 
cox,  all  of  New  York  City. 

In  making  their  award  upon  the  bids  and  samples,  these  inspectors,  I 
fully  believe,  were  governed  entirely  by  their  own  judgment  in  the  case, 
and  in  each  case  their  judgment  was  accepted  and  acted  upon.  When 
the  contractors  came  to  deliver  the  coffee,  sugar,  tobacco,  and  blankets, 
the  question  whether  the  articies  were  according  to  contract  as  to  quan 
tity  and  quality  was  left  entirely  to  the  decision  of  these  inspectors. 
They  inspected  the  goods  and  saw  them  shipped,  and  there  can  be  no 
reasonable  doubt  that  the  articles  actually  purchased  were  delivered  to 
the  transportation  companies  in  New  York  for  shipment  to  this  agency. 
These  supplies  are  traced  distinctly  through  Omaha  and  Cheyenne,  and 
the  agents  receipt  is  returned  for  them.  Samples  of  these  supplies 
have  been  furnished  the  commission,  writh  the  statements  of  the  several 
inspectors  above  named.  These  supplies  are  in  my  judgment  fully  equal 
in  grade  to  those  in  use  by  the  great  majority  of  laboring  people  in  this 
country,  and  are  of  a  quality  which  ought  to  be  satisfactory  to  the  In 
dians.  I  believe  the  interests  of  true  economy  would  not  allow  the  pur 
chase  of  a  better  grade  of  articles. 

The  sample  of  flour  on  which  the  contract  was  let,  by  the  advice  of 
Mr.  Livermore,  was  sent  to  the  flour  inspector  for  Eed  cloud  Agency,  at 
Cheyenne,  Maj.  A.  K.  Long,  of  the  U.  S.  Army.  When  the  flour  came 
to  be  delivered,  1  found  from  the  complaints  of  the  contractor  that  Maj. 
Long's  inspection  was  close  and  rigid.  With  this  I  was  pleased,  and  so 
informed  him  by  telegraph. 


660 

The  blankets  were  purchased  of  John  Dobson,  of  Philadelphia.  They 
were  the  well-known  standard  Mackinaw  blanket,  of  superior  quality, 
heavy,  warm,  and  serviceable;  a  much  better  blanket  than  the  soldiers 
of  the  Army  use,  and  a  far  better  blanket,  both  for  wear  and  bed-cover 
ing,  than  the  great  majority  of  the  American  people  are  able  to  have  for 
themselves  or  their  families.  They  were  all  stamped  indelibly  U.  S.  I.  D., 
so  that  there  is  no  room  even  for  a  suspicion  that  the  blankets  bearing 
this  stamp,  which  Mr.  Marsh  saw  upon  the  Indians7,  were  not  the  iden 
tical  heavy,  soft,  warm  Mackinaw  blankets  purchased  for  them  in  Phil 
adelphia.  Red  Cloud  asked  Professor  Marsh  to  tell  his  Great  Father 
that  the  blankets  sent  to  him  were  not  fit  for  horse-blankets;  Pro 
fessor  Marsh  delivered  the  message  to  the  President,  and  did  not 
inform  him  that  it  was  not  true.  Indian  blankets  were  required  to 
be  marked,  for  the  first  time  under  that  year's  contract,  and  through 
the  inexperience  of  the  manufacturer  in  marking,  a  few  of  the  blue 
blankets  were  injured  by  the  stamping  process  ;  some  of  them  to  the  ex 
tent  of  destroying  the  fabric,  and  thus  making  a  hole  in  the  blanket  the 
size  of  the  four  letters.  This  is  not  true  of  auy  except  the  blue  blankets, 
which  were  only  one-eighth  of  the  whole  quantity  furnished  to  that 
agency,  and  it  is  true  only  of  a  portion  of  this  one-eighth.  How  great 
that  portion  is,  I  have  not  the  information  to  state,  but  I  do  not  believe 
it  to  have  been  large. 

The  above  facts  will  show,  I  confidently  believe,  that  the  office  took 
all  reasonable  and  necessary  means  to  protect  the  Government  from  im 
position  and  fraud,  and  to  secure  the  delivery  of  the  proper  articles  for 
the  use  of  the  Indians. 

At  one  of  the  interviews  with  Mr.  Marsh  he  informed  me  that  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  had  requested  him  to  make,  for  his  use.  a  written 
statement  of  what  he  had  seen  and  believed  to  be  wrong  at  Red 
Cloud  agency.  I  urged  him  to  do  so.  He  replied  that  he  told  the 
Secretary  that  if  he  desired  such  a  statement,  he  should  make  the 
request  to  him  in  writing,  which  the  Secretary  had  not  done,  and  he 
would  consider  the  matter  whether  he  would  furnish  the  statement  or  not.* 
General  Eaton,  Commissioner  of  Education,  was  present  at  the  interview 
and  united  with  me  in  urging  upon  Professor  Marsh  to  make  such  state 
ment,  in  order  that  the  Department  might  have  the  facts  for  a  thorough 
investigation  into  all  the  complaints  alleged.  We  were  not  able  to  obtain 
the  consent  of  Professor  Marsh  to  this  request,  yet  he  did  not  positively 
refuse  it.  I  assured  him  over  and  over  again  that  we  were  anxious  to 
know  what  was  the  true  state  of  things,  and  desired  any  information  he 
could  give  us  on  the  subject,  and  explained  that  it  ought  to  be  in 
writing,  with  reference  to  such  sources  of  evidence  as  he  could  give  us. 

Mr.  Marsh  declined  to  furnish  a  written  statement  of  frauds  of  which 
he  had  become  aware,  to  myself.  In  answer  to  my  request  for  such  a 
statement,  he  replied  he  would  give  it  to  the  commission  appointed  to 
investigate  the  matter.  Pending  the  appointment  of  that  commission, 
he  sent  the  statement  which  I  had  requested  to  the  President,  publish 
ing  it  at  the  same  time  in  the  newspapers.  ^1  am  not  aware  of  any 
reason  assigned  by  him  for  such  publication — a  course  unusual  and  in 
no  way  assisting  either  the  President,  Department,  or  the  commission  in 
searching  for  the  alleged  frauds. 

Mr.  Marsh  assigns  as  his  reasons  for  declining  to  give  the  statement 
to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  or  to  myself,  that  he  had  reason  to 
suspect  the  Department  was  interested  in  covering  up  rather  than  in 


661 

discovering  frauds,  and  that  he  had  lost  confidence  in  my  integrity  of 
purpose.  To  sustain  this  grave  charge,  which  Mr.  Marsh  has  taken  the 
responsibility  to  scatter  through  the  press  and  in  his  own  publications 
copiously  distributed  through  the  mail,  to  all  parts  of  this  country,  and 
even  in  Europe,  no  specific  allegations  are  made.  There  are,  however, 
three  charges  of  fraud  and  wrong  which  he  endeavors  to  fasten  upon  the 
Indian  Office. 

First,  a  disposition  to  shield  contractors  by  false  statements.  For  proof  of 
this  Mr.  Marsh  offers  two  dispatches,  taken  from  the  newspapers,  as  my 
statements.  The  first  is  as  follows  : 

Commissioner  Smith,  of  the  Indian  Bureau,  says,  in  regard  to  the  letter  of  General 
Bradley,  published  yesterday,  that  the  cattle  spoken  of  belong  to  the  contractor;  that  they 
were  sick,  some  of  them  with  broken  limbs,  and  that  they  were  not  issued  to  the  Indians, 
and  that  there  was  no  intention  of  issuing  them,  simply  because  they  were  in  such  a  poor 
and  sickly  condition.  It  asserts  that  Eed  Dog's  statement  was  incorrect,  and  that  Red 
Cloud  informed  him  this  morning  that  Red  Dog  lied  when  he  told  the  story  to  General 
Bradley  and  Professor  Marsh.  The  Commissioner  also  states  that  General  Bradley  could 
have  satisfied  himself  of  this  fact  by  a  slight  inquiry  of  the  herdsmen  or  contractor,  if  he 
had  desired  to  do  so. 

The  second  press  dispatch  on  which  I  am  convicted  of  falsehood  and 
fraudulent  intent  is  this : 

It  is  stated  at  the  Indian  Bureau,  with  reference  to  the  complaints  concerning  supplies  fur 
nished  to  the  Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  that  all  the  flour  sent  there  was  inspected 
at  Cheyenne,  by  Major  Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United  States  Army,  and 
passea  bv  him  as  equal  to  the  accepted  samples.  It  is  therefore  claimed  that  the  samples  of 
inferior  flour  brought  here  by  Prof.  Marsh,  at  the  request  of  Red  Cloud,  were  of  some  old 
issue,  or,  like  the  specimens  of  sugar  and  tobacco,  have  been  damaged  by  exposure  to  the 
weather  while  in  the  Indians'  possession. 

In  the  first  quotation  from  newspapers  given  above  Mr.  Marsh  at 
tempts  to  prove  that  I  am  false  by  Eed  Cloud's  statement  that  he  (Red 
Cloud)  never  said  to  me  what  is  above  alledged ;  and,  secondly,  by  the 
statements  of  the  half-breeds  and  squaw-men,  that  they  did  not  inter 
pret  any  such  thing  for  Eed  Cloud,  and  therefore  he  could  not  have 
said  it.  If  Mr.  Marsh  had  made  a  slight  inquiry  respecting  the  dis 
patch,  he  could  have  saved  himself  the  trouble  of  calling  upon  his  Da 
kota  witnesses.  I  never  exchanged  a  word  with  Eed  Cloud  on  the  sub 
ject.  The  reporter  misunderstood  me  when  he  says  that  I  told  him  that 
Eed  Cloud  informed  me.  I  said  to  the  reporter  that  I  had  been  informed 
that  Eed  Cloud  had  so  stated ;  and  this  fact  entirely  disposes  of  the 
*' four  falsehoods"  and  of  the  question  of  veracity  raised  by  Professor 
Marsh  between  Eed  Cloud  and  myself. 

Of  the  second  dispatch,  which  Mr.  Marsh  thinks  a  sufficient  ground 
to  accuse  me  of  fraud,  I  never  had  any  knowledge  whatever,  until  I  saw 
it  in  his  statement.  The  information  purports  to  have  been  procured 
from  the  Indian  Office  on  the  3d  day  of  May.  At  that  time  I  was  not 
within  two  hundred  miles  of  the  Office,  and  had  not  been  for  a  week 
previous,  nor  had  I  communicated  with  any  one  at  the  Office  on  the 
subject. 

The  second  charge  of  Mr.  Marsh  implicating  myself  is  that  1  had 
already  been  made  acquainted  with  the  icrongs  at  Red  Cloud  agency, 
and  had  taken  no  measures  to  prevent  them.  This  I  deny,  and  assert, 
on  the  contrary,  that  all  previous  reports  of  irregularities  or  wrongs 
said  to  exist  at  that  agency,  and  all  statements  respecting  the  integrity 
of  the  administration  of  Eed  Cloud  affairs,  have  received  timely,  full, 
and  proper  consideration  by  the  Indian  Office  during  my  administra 
tion. 

The  first  serious  complaints  made  against  agent  Saville  reached  the 


662 

office  in  connection  with  the  visit  of  Samuel  Walker  to  the  agency. 
The  complaints  were  immediately  made  the  subject  of  investigation 
by  order  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

Bishop  Hare,  Rev.  S.  D.  Hiumau,  inspector  Bevier,  and  Hon.  F.  EL 
Smith,  member  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  were  sent  at  once 
to  inquire  into  the  alleged  wrongs.  They  made  extended  investigations. 
Bishop  Hare  and  Mr.  Hinman,  as  officers  of  the  Episcopal  church,  had  a 
peculiar  interest  in  finding  the  truth.  The  report  of  this  commission 
completely  exonerated  the  agent  from  all  complicity  with  frauds,  and 
commended  him  for  his  satisfactory  administration,  in  view  of  the  many 
difficulties  and  embarrassments  under  which  it  was  carried  on. 

On  this  report  I  acted,  and  gave  the  agent  my  confidence  and  hearty 
co-operation,  notwithstanding  the  report  of  Samuel  Walker,  which 
Bishop  Hare  characterizes  as  contemptible.  If  I  had  been  capable  of 
doing  otherwise  I  should  have  despised  myself.  J.  D.  Bevier,  United 
States  Indian  Inspector  visited  this  agency  again  the  following  Septem 
ber.  His  report  of  that  inspection  did  not  in  any  way  reverse  or  recall 
the  previous  report  which  he  had  made  respecting  the  findings  of  Samuel 
W7alker.  It  related  principally  to  subsequent  transactions  of  the  agent 
which  he  pronounced  wrong  and  indicative  of  fraud.  Inquiry  showed,  as  I 
though  t,that  the  inspector  was  mistaken  in  some  quite  important  facts  upon 
which  he  had  based  his  statements,  and  agent  Saville's  explanation  of  his 
transactions  which  were  the  most  seriously  questioned,  supported  by  tes 
timony  of  other  parties,  seemed  to  me  to  be  reasonable.  I  was  also 
aware  that  just  about  this  time  and  since  his  former  report  commending 
the  agent,  Mr.  Bevier  had  had  a  personal  grievance  against  agent  Sa- 
ville  upon  a  matter  not  at  all  counectedVith  his  duties  as  inspector,  and 
that  it  had  led  to  quite  unpleasant  feelings  towards  the  agent.  This  I 
supposed  might  account  to  some  extent  for  the  severe  report  which  he 
now  made.  In  frequent  subsequent  personal  interviews  on  matters  re 
lating  to  his  inspection  tour,  Mr.  Bevier  did  not  in  any  way  of  which  I 
have  any  recollection,  allude  to  the  fact  that  he  had  changed  his  esti 
mate  of  Saville.  FOT  these  reasons  the  second  report  of  the  inspector 
while  it  gave  me  uneasiness  and  apprehension  did  not  operate  to  destroy 
the  confidence  in  the  agent  which  his  previous  report  and  that  of  the 
other  members  of  Bishop  Hare's  commission  had  inspired. 

The  third  instance  of  fraud,  or  connivance  with  fraud,  which  JlTr. 
Marsh  charges  is  in  connection  with  the  transportation  service  rendered  by 
I).  J.  McCann,  under  contract  with  the  Indian  Bureau.  Mr.  Marsh 
charges  that  by  over-estimating  the  distance,  the  Government  has 
been  defrauded,  with  the  knowledge  of  the  Indian  Office,  to  the  amount 
of  $15,000.  The  facts  are  that  the  Government  has  not  been,  and  can 
not  be,  defrauded  one  dollar  on  this  transportation  service  ;  but  by  the 
care  and  caution  of  the  Office,  the  Government  is  protected,  and  has 
been,  from  all  fraud  and  loss,  whatever  may  be  the  actual  distance  be 
tween  Red  Cloud  and  Cheyenne. 

The  facts  relative  to  this  matter  are  these :  McCann  and  others  bid 
for  the  transportation  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  over  a  route  which 
had  been  established  at  so  much  per  pound  per  hundred  miles.  The 
distance  had  been  already  fixed  in  previous  contracts,  and  it  would 
naturally  be  supposed  that  bids  of  all  parties  would  be  based  upon 
the  distance  recognized  by  the  Department  and  by  freighters  at  the 
time  of  the  bidding.  When  the  question  arose  as  to  the  actual  distance, 
and  the  transportation  accounts  were  held  up,  pending  the  decision 
McCaun  addressed  the  following  letter  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior: 


6G3 

• 

WASHINGTON,  D.  0.,  December  3, 1873. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  propose  in  the  matter  of  difference  as  to  the  distance  from 
Cheyenne  to  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency,  that  my  accounts  be  allowed  in  accordance 
with  the  terms  of  the  contract  as  to  price  and  distance  during  the  winter  months,  and  that 
a  sum  sufficient  to  cover  the  cost  of  transportation  for  any  distance  less  than  that  stipulated 
in  the  contract,  which  may  be  found  to  exist,  may  be  withheld  during  the  months  of  April, 
May,  and  June,  1874,  till  the  question  shall  be  determined. 

The  object  in  making  this  proposition  is  to  secure  the  means  for  the  prosecution  of  the 
work  during  the  winter,  while  transportation  is  scarce  and  labor  high.    I  respectfully  inclose 
herewith  a  telegram  received  this  day  from  the  shipping-agent  at  Cheyenne,  showing  the 
demand  for  transportation  and  the  need  of  funds. 
Very  respectfully  your  obedient  servant, 

D.  J.  McCANN. 
To  the  honorable  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 

McCann's  transportation  service  in  May  of  1874  amounted  to 
$6,323.66.  His  service  in  June  amounted  to  $8,905,31.  Amount  withheld 
for  the  two  mouths,  $14,328.97.  This  sum  was  not  paid  to  McCann  until 
after  he  had  entered  into  contract. and  given  bonds  in  the  sum  of  $40,000, 
for  its  fulfillment,  for  transportation  service  in  1875. 

There  was  no  time  in  that  year  when  the  Government  was  not  fully 
protected  by  this  contract,  and  service  rendered  under  it,  against  any 
loss  that  might  be  found  to  have  occurred  by  over-estimated  distance. 

At  the  end  of  the  year  1874-'75,  the  office  was  indebted  to  McCann 
on  account  of  transportation  for  May  and  June,  $14,568.12.  This  was 
withheld  until  the  5th  of  August  last,  and  until  after  McCann  had 
entered  into  contracts  involving  $100,000  expenditure,  under  bonds  in 
the  penal  sum  of  $51,000.  Thus  it  will  be  seen  that  there  has  never  been 
an  hour  from  the  time  the  question  of  distance  \vas  raised  when  the 
Government  has  not  been  able  to  compel  McCann  to  make  full  and  fair 
settlements  on  the  actual  distance  between  Cheyenne  and  Keii  Cloud 
agencies.  At  this  time  McCann  is  under  contract  to  rentier  service 
which  will  amount,  at  a  low  estimate,  to  $95,000,  a  considerable  portion 
of  which  service  has  already  been  rendered  and  is  yet  unpaid. 

Office  correspondence,  which  has  been  submitted  to  you,  shows  that 
the  Indian  Office  took  steps  to  procure  a  measurement  of  the  distance, 
and.  that  the  route  has  been  measured  twice  and  the  distance  found  to 
be  226  miles  instead  of  212  miles,  the  distance  claimed  by  McCann. 
This  result  not  being  satisfactory  to  myself  or  to  Agent  Saville,  I  asked, 
under  date  of  November  20,  1874,  that  the  Secretary  of  War  be  re 
quested  to  measure  it  by  an  officer  of  the  Arm3T.  In  accordance  with 
this  request  an  attempt  to  make  the  measurement  was  made  by  Second 
Lieutenant  I.  H.  Winter,  on  the  31st  day  of  December,  1874,  which  was 
unsuccessful  on  account  of  a  severe  storm.  Subsequent  to  that  time 
and  during  the  spring  and  early  summer  months,  it  has  not  been  prac 
ticable  to  measure  the  distance  on  account  of  the  high  water  in  the 
Platte,  which  prevented  the  passing  of  the  river  by  the  surveying  expe 
dition  at  the  point  where  the  transportation-route  crosses.  A  request 
has  recently  been  made  of  the  War  Department  to  complete  this  nieas- 
ftrement  at  an  early  day.  When  it  is  done  McCann's  accounts  will  be 
adjusted  on  the  basis  agreed  upon. 

In  conclusion  of  this  portion  of  my  statement,  I  desire  to  add  that 
Professor  Marsh  is  entirely  wrong  when  he  imputes  to  me  any  unworthy 
motives  for  the  part  which  I  have  taken  in  relation  to  his  complaints 
respecting  Indian  affairs.  As  I  have  stated,  our  first  interview  was  to 
me  in  no  way  an  unpleasant  one,  and  1  was  not,  at  the  time,  aware  that 
I  had  made  any  unfavorable  impression  upon  himself.  I  did  controvert 
his  claim,  as  the  representative  of  lied  Cloud,  that  that  Indian  was  be 
ing  abused.  His  statements  and  complaints  were  so  much  after  the  old 


664 

stereotyped  form,  with  which  I  bad  become  familiar,  and  which  every 
new  man  seems  to  learn  by  heart  the  first  day  out  of  Cheyenne,  that  I 
did  not  attach  much  value  to  them,  and  it  is  not  unlikely  that  I  showed 
the  feelings  which  would  be  natural  when  I  thought  Professor  Marsh 
had  volunteered  to  be  the  bearer  of  complaints  which  were  not  well 
founded,  and  when  I  more  than  half  suspected  that  the  Indian  had 
gotten  the  better  of  the  Professor. 

In  a  subsequent  interview,  after  public  attention  had  been  widely 
called  to  his  charges,  Mr.  Marsh  told  me  that  he  came  at  that  first  inter 
view  simply  to  fulfill  his  part  of  a  bargain  with  Bed  Cloud ;  that  he  was 
not  a  philanthropist  nor  a  reformer;  that  that  was  not  his  line  of  busi 
ness;  that  he  was  fully  occupied  in  scientific  pursuits,  which  left  him  no 
time  or  inclination  to  meddle  with  the  Indian  question,  though  he  did 
not  believe  in  the  present  Indian  policy;  but  that  having  been  crowded 
into  this  question  he  must  go  through.  His  reputation  for  good  sense 
was  at  stake,  and  he  would  show  that  he  was  right. 

The  fact  that  Mr.  Marsh,  at  no  greater  distance  than  Xew  Haven, 
kept  these  dreadful  tales  of  wrong  and  suffering,  intrusted  to  him  by 
the  Sioux  chief  for  safe  conveyance  to  his  Great  Father,  during  all  the 
biting  cold  of  an  unusually  severe  winter,  from  November  to  the  last  of 
April,  without  in  any  way  endeavoring  to  call  the  attention  of  those  who 
he  must  have  supposed  could  right  these  wrrongs,  tends  to  show  that  he 
did  not  himself  attach  very  much  importance  to  disclosures  made  at  Bed 
Cloud,  for  it  should  be  kept  in  mind  in  this  connection  that,  according  to  his 
own  statement,  Professor  Marsh,  up  to  this  interview  in  April,  had  entire 
confidence  in  myself  as  a  true,  determined  friend  of  the  Indians ;  and 
yet,  during  those  six  months,  when  the  suffering  from  cold  and  hunger 
at  the  lied  Cloud  agency  was  greatly  intensified,  he  did  not  so  much  as 
communicate  with  me  by  letter  on  this  subject,  nor  in  any  way  did  he 
attend  to  Ked  Cloud's  message  until  other  business  connected  with  his 
profession  brought  him  to  Washington  in  April,  when,  as  he  told  me,  he 
" incidentally"  proceeded  to  fulfill  his  pledge  to  that  Indian. 

I  am  not  aware  of  any  expression,  by  word  or  otherwise,  on  my  part, 
from  which  Professor  Marsh  was  entitled  to  infer  that  I  desired  to  pre 
vent  publicity  or  exposure  of  fraud  in  the  Indian  service.  I  did  call  his 
attention  frequently,  and,  in  what  he  may  have  regarded  as  severe  lan 
guage,  to  the  fact  that  he  was  allowing  the  press,  hostile  to  the  Indian 
Bureau  and  to  the  Administration,  to  use  his  name  in  connection  with 
statements,  which  were  not  true,  and  especially  to  parade  the  samples 
which  he  had  taken  from  Bed  Cloud's  hands  as  evidence  of  great  fraud 
and  corruption  at  that  agency  and  in  the  Indian  Office,  when  he  had  not 
at  any  time  tested  the  fairness  of  those  samples,  though  he  had  ample 
opportunity  so  to  do  while  at  the  agency.  I  charged  him  with  want  of 
courteous  and  honorable  treatment  to  me  and  the  Department  in  allow 
ing  such  public  statements  on  his  authority ;  without  what  I  considered 
the  slightest  proof  having  been  offered  to  me  or  any  one  else  to  sustain 
them,  and  when  he  himself  did  not  claim  to  know  from  personal  obser* 
vation  that  the  statements  made  in  connection  with  his  name,  and  his 
visit  to  Bed  Cloud  and  his  bringing  the  samples  to  the  Indian  Office 
were  true. 

In  making  up  their  findings  upon  Professor  Marsh's  charges  I  ask 
the  Commission  to  weigh  well  the  suspicion  and  distrust  which  they 
have  cast  upon  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  the  shock  and 
horror  which  they  have  given  to  the  minds  of  many  of  the  best 
citizens  of  the  country,  and  the  destructive  blow  which  they  have 
struck  at  public  confidence  in  the  possibility  of  Indian  civilization  or 


GG5 

lionest  government.  May  I  not  also  claim  the  personal  right  to  ask  your 
consideration  of  my  own  case,  in  relation  to  his  statements.  I  have  had 
but  one  desire  or  ambition  as  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  that 
is  to  do  something  to  lift  275,000  people  out  of  a  barbarous  and  semi-bar 
barous  condition  into  Christian  civilization  and  American  citizenship. 
It  was  for  this  purpose  alone,  at  a  sacrifice  of  personal  comfort  and  incli 
nation,  that  I  accepted  and  have  consented  to  try  to  fill  the  very  difficult, 
embarrassing,  often  discouraging,  and  a)  ways  thankless  office  of  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  I  know  that  I  despise  wrong  and  meanness, 
and  that  in  my  estimation  there  is  nothing  meaner  than  to  defraud  an 
ignorant,  helpless  barbarian  ;  and  that  no  inducement  could  be  offered 
to  make  me  desire  to  shield  from  exposure  and  punishment  any  man 
guilty  of  such  a  crime.  Up  to  the  present  time  I  have  enjoyed  the  repu 
tation  among  a  large  circle  of  acquaintances  of  being  an  honest  man; 
that  reputation  is  all  that  I  have  which  is  of  any  value  to  me.  Professor 
Marsh  has,  in  fact,  though  probably  without  intention,  done  all  that  a 
man  in  his  high  position  could  do  to  destroy  my  name  and  take  from  me 
that  which  I  prize  above  all  earthly  things,  the  good  opinion  of  good 
men.  He  has  done  this  by  sweeping  assertions,  which  have  been  made 
without  any  proper  inquiry  as  to  the  facts,  and  which  by  free  expendi 
ture  of  money  and  use  of  the  press  have  been  scattered  over  the  wide 
w^orld. 

I  ask  you  to  find  ike  facts  in  this  case,  nothing  more.  If  they  condemn 
me,  if. they  throw  a  shadow  of  suspicion  upon  me,  by  all  means  declare 
it,  and  give  the  declaration  full  emphasis.  If  on  the  other  hand  the 
author  of  these  charges  is  mistaken  and  has  made  the  venture  of  this 
assault  without  proper  inquiry,  then  that  fact  requires  to  be  so  stated 
that  the  widespread  suspicion  and  distrust  which  have  been  created 
by  the  action  of  Professor  Marsh,  respecting  the  honest,  hearty,  effective, 
and  hopeful  effort  for  the  elevation  of  the  Indians,  which  the  President 
and  his  officers  and  agents,  with  the  cordial  co-operation  of  the  religious 
people  of  the  country,  are  now  making,  may  be  remedied  as  far  as  pos 
sible. 

Frequent  reference  has  been  made  to  the  fact  that  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior  in  some  cases  overruled  the  action  of  the  old  Board  of 
Indian  commissioners  where  that  Board  had  disapproved  vouchers,  and 
that  such  overruling  was  "illegal,"  "irregular,"  or  "fraudulent." 

Upon  this  point  I  invite  your  attention  to  the  following  provision  of 
law  defining  the  powers  of  the  board  and  of  the  Secretary  in  regard  to 
vouchers  for  Indian  supplies,  (Stat.  at  Large,  vol.  16,  p.  568 :) 

That  hereafter  no  payments  shall  be  made  by  any  officer  of  the  United  States  to  con 
tractors  for  goods  or  supplies  of  any  sort  furnished  to  the  Indians,  or  for  the  transportation 
thereon,  or  for  any  buildings  or  machinery  erected  or  placed  on  their  reservations,  under  or 
by  virtue  of  any  contract  entered  into  with  the  Interior  Department,  or  any  branch  thereof, 
on  the  receipts  or  certificates  of  the  Indian  agents  or  superintendents  for  such  supplies, 
goods,  transportation,  buildings,  or  machinery,  beyond  50  per  cent,  of  the  amount  due  until 
the  accounts  and  vouchers  shall  have  been  submitted  to  the  executive  committee  of  the  board, 
of  commissioners  appointed  by  the  President  of  the  United  States,  and  organized  under  the 
provisions  of  the  fourth  section  of  the  act  of  April  tenth,  eighteen  hundred  and  sixty-nine, 
and  the  third  section  of  the  act  approved  April  [July]  fifteenth,  eighteen  hundred  and  seventy, 
for  examination,  revisal,  and  approval ;  and  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  said  board  of  commis 
sioners,  without  unnecessary  delay,  to  forward  said  accounts  and  vouchers  so  submitted  to 
them  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  with  the  reasons  for  their  approval  or  disapproval  of 
the  same,  in  whole  or  in  part,  attached  thereto  ;  and  said  Secretary  shall  have  power  to  sus 
tain,  set  aside,  or  modify  the  action  of  said  board,  and  cause  payment  to  be  made  or  with 
held  as  he  may  determine. 

Here  is  an  express  provision  of  law  for  such  action  by  the  Secretary 
in  his  discretion.  It  cannot  therefore  be  illegal,  irregular,  or  fraudulent. 


666 

Dr.  Nathan  Bishop,  a  member  of  the  executive  committee  of  that  board 
which  passed  upon  the  Indian  accounts,  gives,  in  his  testimony  before 
the  standing  Committee  of  Indian  Affairs,  House  of  Representatives,  of 
the  43d  Congress,  his  views  of  this  power  and  duty  of  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  over  vouchers,  after  they  had  passed  the  inspection  of 
the  board,  which  is  officially  reported  as  follows :  • 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  In  all  this  matter  do  you  treat  or  speak  of  anything  as  irregular  which  is  not  in  viola 
tion  of  law  ? 

A.   I  don't  think  I  should. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  anything  was  irregular  or  improper  which  it  was  in  the  power  of 
the  Indian  Department  to  do  without  your  consent  ? 

A.  I  should  not. 

Q.  Are  you  a  lawyer  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  practically.     I  once  read  law. 

Q.  In  reference  to  what  you  have  already  said  as  to  your  regarding  some  proceedings  as 
irregular,  is  it  not  a  familiar  fact  that  the  Interior  Department  or  the  Secretary  of  the  Inte 
rior,  as  a  matter  of  law  and  practice,  has  the  authority  and  the  right  to  overrule  the  decision 
of  your  board  ? 

A.  Certainly  ;  and  if  I  had  been  permitted  in  the  beginning  to  state  what  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  told  me,  it  would  have  thrown  a  good  deal  of  light  on  a  good  deal  of  the 
ground  which  you  have  gone  over. 

By  Mr.  McXuLTA  : 

Q.  What  did  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  say  to  you  on  this  subject  of  examining  and 
acting  on  the  accounts  ? 

A.  The  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  at  my  request,  understood,  and  I  told  him  distinctly, 
that  I  should  act  in  accordance  with  the  law  as  I  understood  it,  and  that  the  discretionary 
power  should  be  all  left  to  him,  as  the  law  placed  it  in  his  hands.  I  told  him  that  if  an  ac 
count  was  irregular,  even  though  there  was  no  indication  of  fraud,  I  should  pronounce  it  ir 
regular,  and  send  it  to  him  to  act  upon,  in  order  that  the  exercise  of  the  discretionary  power 
might  be  by  the  party  to  whom  that  power  was  given  by  law ;  and  I  may  add  here  that  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  requested  me  to  state  this  if  I  had  an  opportunity — to  state  that  I 
had  exercised  no  discretion  in  dealing  with  the  accounts,  but  had  simply  adhered  to  the  law 
as  I  received  it  from  good  authority  ;  and  I  have  never  exercised  discretionary  power  in  any 
case,  but  have  left  it  with  the  Secretary,  where  the  law  places  it. 

Q.  You  understand,  then,  that  the  Secretary  has  merely  exercised  that  discretion  which  is 
placed  in  him  by  law  in  overruling  your  judgment  in  those  matters  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  had  aright  to  do  it,  and  take  the  responsibility. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  wrong  act  or  purpose  of  his  in  doing  so — anything  outside  of  the 
legitimate  exercise  of  that  discretionary  power? 

A.  I  do  not,  because  I  have  never  taken  pains  to  inform  myself. 

Q.  Then,  as  far  as  you  know,  the  Secretary  has  just  done  what  he  had  a  right  by  law  to 
do  ? 

A.  I  have  never  had  reason  to  suppose  that  he  has  done  anything  that  the  law  does  not 
authorize  him  to  do.  Of  course  he  takes  the  responsibility  of  his  own  acts. 

It  will  be  seen  by  this  testimony  that  the  board,  fully  recognizing  the 
legal  authority  of  the  Secretary  to  overrule  their  decisions,  adopted  the 
policy  to  reject  an  account  whenever  it  was  irregular,  even  though 
there  was  no  indication  of  fraud,  leaving  it  to  the  Secretary  to  approve 
or  disapprove,  as  he  was  fully  empowered  to  do  by.  law.  The  disap 
proval  of  an  account  by  the  board,  therefore,  does  not,  as  Dr.  Bishop 
says,  indicate  that  it  was  fraudulent. 

Many  of  the  rejections  of  vouchers  were  based  upon  information  in 
their  possession  of  which  the  Department  had  no  knowledge.  For  ex 
ample,  Samuel  Walker's  report  was  made  December  G,  1873.  The 
board  were  acting  upon  the  statements  in  said  report,  while  the  Depart 
ment  had  no  knowledge  of  it,  not  being  furnished  with  a  copy  of  it 
until  the  llth  of  February  following.  Subsequently,  before  the  Com 
mittee  on  Indian  Affairs  of  the  43d  Congress  Messrs.  Bishop  and  Dodge 
of  the  board  admitted  that  they  had  been  deceived  by  Walker's  report 
as  to  the  number  of  Indians,  and  adopted  the  facts  contained  in  Bishop 


667 

Hare's  report  upon  the  subject.  You  are  respectfully  referred  to  the 
testimony  of  Messrs.  Bishop  and  Dodge  upon  this  point  in  the  report  of 
the  congressional  committe,  a  copy  of  which  has  been  furnished  you. 

The  reasons  assigned  by  this  board  for  rejecting  vouchers  are  frequently 
quite  general.  For  instance,  on  page  12,  report  of  1873,  they  say,  "  affi 
davits  in  our  possession  go  to  show/'  &c.,  without  furnishing  the  affi 
davits  to  the  Department;  "from  investigation  we  are  satisfied,"  &c., 
without  giving  any  detail  of  the  investigation;  "  the  best  information 
goes  to  show,'  &c.,  without  stating  what  that  information  is.  Page  13, 
they  say  "subsequent  examination  showed,"  &c.,  without  stating  what 
the  examination  had  been.  These  expressions  all  referred  to  the  inves 
tigation  made  by  the  board,  the  results  of  which  were  not  communica- 
tedto  the  Department  at  the  time  the  Secretary  was  called  to  act  upon 
the  vouchers  to  which  the  investigation  referred. 

Testimony  has  been  taken  relative  to  the  substitution  of  corn  for  flour, 
and  pork  for  bacon,  at  some  of  the  Sioux  agencies.  This  subject  was 
thoroughly  investigated  by  the  standing  Committee  on  Indian  Affairs  of 
the  43d  Congress,  and  full  statements  will  be  found  in  their  report  above 
referred  to.  Corn  was  substituted  for  a  portion  of  the  flour  upon  the 
suggestion  of  Mr.  Cree,  then  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners,  in  a  letter  written  by  him  from  the  Indian  country,  where  he  was 
traveling  in  company  with  Mr.  Brunot,  the  chairman  of  the  commission. 
Mr.  Cree  stated  that  so  great  was  the  desire  of  the  Indians  for  corn  that 
they  would  exchange  a  sack  of  flour  containing  a  hundred  pounds  for  a 
peck  of  corn.  I  then  thought,  and  still  think,  the  substitution  was  a 
proper  one,  and  have  reason  to  believe  that  it  has  been  useful  and  sat 
isfactory  to  the  Indians.  The  corn  cost  from  25  to  35  per  cent,  less  per 
pound,  and  to  the  extent  of  the  exchange  was  fully  equal  in  value, 
pound  for  pound. 

The  substitution  of  pork  for  bacon  was  made  on  my  own  judgment,as  a 
measure  of  economy.  There  is  much  less  loss  by  shrinkage  in  pork 
than  in  bacon;  it  keeps  cleaner  and  reaches  the  agencies  in  every  res 
pect  in  better  condition  for  consumption  than  bacon.  The  pork  costs 
less  than  the  bacon  and  is  worth  more. 

In  considering  the  price  paid  for  this  corn  it  must  be  remembered  that 
the  transaction  was  a  substitution  and  not  a  purchase.  It  is  not  im 
probable  that  by  advertising,  somewhat  lower  rates  might  have  been 
obtained ;  but  the  flour  contractor  claimed  that  his  existing  contract 
should  not  be  ignored,  upon  which  at  the  time  of  the  substitution  there 
was  a  margin  of  profit  to  the  contractor.  To  this  margin  of  profit 
thecontractor  was  in  justice  entitled.  In  making  the  substitution,  there 
fore,  the  market  price  of  flour  was  taken  into  consideration,  and  the 
exchange  agreed  upon  allowed  the  same  margin  on  corn  that  was  then 
being  realized  on  flour. 

Still  another  class  of  claims  rejected  by  the  old  board,  and  which  the 
Secretary  allowed,  were  those  where  beef  had  been  received  in  excess  of 
the  one  twenty-fourth  part  <ff  the  entire  amount  which  the  contract 
called  for  in  any  single  semi-monthly  delivery.  When  it  was  shown  to  the 
satisfaction  of  the  Secretary  that  the  beef  had  actually  been  delivered 
and  consumed  by  the  Indians,  he  waived  the  technical  objection  of  the 
board  and  approved  the  vouchers.  In  all  this  class  of  claims  there  was 
no  charge  or  evidence  of  fraud.  In  some  instances  this  excess  of  the 
one  twenty-fourth  part  was  occasioned  by  the  demand  of  the  Indians 
which  the  agent  had  not  the  power  to  resist.  In  others  it  occurred  from 
the  agent  receiving  more  cattle  at  a  delivery  than  was  required  for  im 
mediate  consumption  in  order  to  avail  himself  of  the  increase  in  weight 


668 

by  feeding  the  cattle  011  prairie-grass.  By  this  course,  without  additional 
cost  for  herding,  a  large  number  of  cows  were  saved  from  slaughter 
and  given  to  the  Indians  for  use.  It  was  claimed  by  me  that  if  the 
contractor  was  willing  to  make  the  advance  delivery  and  it  was  for  the 
benefit  of  the  Indians  and  the  Government,  there  could  be  no  objection. 
Certainly  there  was  no  fraud. 

I  fully  believe  that  a  candid  examination  into  this  matter'will  show  that 
a  very  large  portion  of  the  vouchers  which  were  suspended,  or  which,  for 
any  reason,  failed  to  receive  the  approval  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners,  were  of  this  class,  and  that  the  transactions  involved  in  the 
outlay  which  they  represented  were  entirely  honorable  and  for  the  ben 
efit  of  the  Indians  and  the  Government. 

Professor  MARSH.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  request  a  copy  of  the  statement 
of  the  Commissioner,  and  an  opportunity  to  reply  to  some  portions  of  it. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Of  course  you  will  have  a  copy  of  it  when  it  is  printed. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  should  like  to  have  Mr.  Alvord's  statement  go  on 
record,  if  it  is  here;  I  submit  that  as  evidence. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  E.  P.  SMITH. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Question.  I  observe  that  the  treaty  of  1868,  made  with  the  Sioux  Xa- 
tion,  prescribes  in  one  of  its  sections  that  a  military  officer  shall  inspect 
the  supplies  at  the  agency  before  they  are  issued.  Has  that  provision 
of  the  treaty  of  1868  ever  been  carried  into  execution  by  our  Govern 
ment  ;  and,  if  not,  wrhy  has  it  not  been  complied  with  ? 

Answer.  I  am  not  aware  that  it  has  been.  I  didn't  know  myself  that 
that  was  a  treaty  obligation. 

Q.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  a  positive  requirement  in  that  treaty  that  they  shall 
detail  a  military  officer  at  each  of  the  agencies  to  inspect  the  goods  be 
fore  they  are  issued,  and  to  be  present  at  their  issue. 

A.  My  attention  has  never  been  called  to  it,  and  I  am  not  informed 
that  the  Office  has  ever  acted  upon  it.  It  would  not  be  strange  that  a 
treaty  provision  which  had  not  received  the  attention  of  the  Bureau  at 
the  time  the  treaty  went  into  operation,  and  had  passed  unnoticed  for 
five  years  of  office  routine  under  previous  Commissioners,  should  not 
come  to  my  attention. 

Q.  Is  there  any  necessity  at  all  for  these  men  who  are  called  freight-con 
tractors  between  the  eastern  cities  where  the  goods  are  purchased  and 
points  of  delivery  like  Omaha,  Cheyenne,  and  other  points  ?  Will  not 
the  ordinary  facilities  afforded  by  the  railroads  as  common  carriers  se 
cure  to  the  Government  the  safe  delivery  of  goods  from  commercial 
points  in  the  East  to  commercial  points  along  the  railroad  in  the  West, 
without  the  intervention  of  freight-contractors  9 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  suppose  to  some  of  the  points  it  may  be  done,  but  with 
greater  inconvenience  to  the  Office  and  greater  risk  to  the  goods  ;  while 
at  some  of  the  points  it  could  not  be  done  at  all  without  sending  an 
agent  along  to  reship  at  those  points,  because  of  a  requirement  by  law 
that  the  Government  shall  not  pay  freight  over  certain  subsidized  roads. 
When  the  freight  gets  to  that  road  it  stops  until  somebody  comes  there 
and  gives  a  Government  requisition  and  sends  it  forward. 

Q.  Still,  could  not  you  make  an  arrangement  with  your  agent  at 
Omaha,  for  example,  by  which  it  might  be  made  his  duty  to  see  to  the 
immediate  transportation  from  that  point  to  Cheyenne? 


669 

A.  That  I  did  last  year,  from  there,  but  it  occasioned  a  great  deal  of 
difficulty  aud  a  great  deal  of  delay  in  the  transshipment.  Then 
another  reason  against  that  system  is  that  I  get  through  rates  from  the 
contractor  at  much  less  freight-charges  than  I  can  get  local  rates. 

Q.  Then  would  you  regard  it  as  a  measure  of  economy  to  have  a 
freight-contractor  instead  of  resorting  to  the  ordinary  mode  that  a  mer 
chant,  for  example,  living  in  Cheyenne,  would  adopt  in  having  his 
goods  transported  "? 

A.  That  merchant  does  exactly  what  I  do  ;  he  gets  through-rates  from 
New  York  to  Cheyenne.  That  is  exactly  what  I  do.  I  advertise,  and  any 
railroad  company  or  contractor  says  at  what  price  they  or  he  will  give  me 
through  rates  ;  so  far  as  I  can  avoid  it  I  do  not  stop  at  Cheyenne.  I 
want  to  go  through  to  the  agency,  so  that  I  can  deliver  goods  that  I  have 
purchased  and  seen  myself,  and  which  have  been  inspected  and  sworn  to  by 
the  inspector,  and  for  which  I  have  his  certificate  of  shipment.  I  want 
to  deliver  them  to  the  freight- contractor,  take  his  receipt,  and  hold  him 
on  it,  for  those  several  packages  until  he  gives  me  the  agent's  receipt,  in 
Wyoming  or  Dakota  or  Nevada,  That  makes  it  a  simple,  clear,  and 
safe  transaction. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  compared  the  expense  of  transportation  through  a 
freight-contractor  with  the  expense  of  some  other  mode  or  arrangement 
for  the  transportation  of  goods  from  eastern  cities  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  compared  my  rates  with  the  local  rates.  I  go  to 
through  rate  men,  and  I  find  their  terms  are  always  more  favorable  than 
I  can  get  in  any  other  way.  Then,  by  law,  I  have  to  advertise  for  bids 
for  any  service  I  want  done. 

Q.  Does  the  law  require  you  to  have  a  freight-contractor  ? 

A.  The  law  requires  me  to  advertise  for  any  service  I  need,  if  I  have 
the  time.  When  I  need  transportation  from  New  York  to  Red  Cloud 
I  call  for  bids  for  that  service,  and  on  those  bids  the  contracts  are 
let. 

Q.  We  can  easily  imagine  the  necessity  of  a  freight-contractor  as  be 
tween  Omaha  and  the  interior  ;  but  the  difficulty  in  my  mind  was  in 
seeing  the  absolute  necessity  of  paying  a  freight-contractor  for  super 
intending  the  transportation  of  goods  from  any  point  like  an  eastern  city, 
by  common  carriers,  to  some  point  in  the  West. 

A.  I  don't  pay  him  for  superintending ;  he  gets  lower  rates  than  I  can 
get,  by  applying  to  the  several  connecting  roads,  and  being  a  private 
citizen,  compensates  himself  for  his  trouble  by  the  margin,  and  still 
leaves  a  considerable  margin  of  advantage  to  the  Government.  I  call 
for  rates  5  I  don't  call  for  a  contractor.  This  year  I  made  a  contract 
with  the  Northern  Pacific  Railroad  Company  for  rates  to  Dakota. 
They  were  the  lowest  bidders.  If  the  Northern  Pacific  or  Northwest 
ern  and  Chicago,  or  any  other  transportation  company,  had  been  the 
lowest  bidder  to  Cheyenne  or  Eed  Cloud,  it  would  have  got  the  con 
tract. 

Q.  You  are  satisfied  that  the  present  system  of  forwarding  goods 
through  a  freight-contractor  is  a  measure  of  economy  and  safety  to  the 
Government'? 

A.  I  have  no  alternative  in  the  matter;  I  am  obliged  to  advertise  for 
bids,  and  take  the  lowest  responsible  bidder ;  and  1  am  satisfied  also 
that  the  Government  is  better  served  that  way  than  in  any  other.  You 
cannot  go  to  New  York  and  procure  transportation  to  lied  Cloud  at  any 
thing  like  the  rates  I  get,  unless  you  make  through  arrangements  from 
New  York  with  aD  the  connecting  roads,  clear  to  that  agency. 


670 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Does  your  contract  with  the  Northern  Pacific  require  them  to  de 
liver  goods  off  the  line  of  the  road  9 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  deliver  goods  at  the  agencies  along  the  Missouri 
Kiver  above  and  below  Bismarck. 

Q.  I  don't  understand  your  allusion  to  difficulties  which  you  said  were 
interposed  by  the  subsidized  roads.  Does  the  Government  find  any  dif 
ficulty  in  shipping  goods  to  Ogden? 

A.  No,  sir;  providing  we  have  an  agent  who  will  take  them  up  at 
Omaha  and  forward  them.  I  cannot  ship  directly  from  New  York 
through  Omaha. 

Q.  Why  can  you  not  ship  through  Omaha? 

A.  Because  at  Omaha  I  strike  a  subsidized  road.  A  subsidized  road 
won't  deliver  Government  freight  at  Ogden  unless  I  pay  cash  for  the 
transportation,  which  I  cannot  do.  The  law  does  not  permit  me  to  pay 
cash.  I  can  only  give  them  a  certificate  of  credit,  and  that  they  won't 
take  on  an  arrangement  for  through  rates.  They  say,  u  If  you  want 
to  ship  freight  under  the  restrictions  imposed  upon  the  road  by  Con 
gress,  you  must  take  up  the  freight  at  Omaha  on  a  Government  re 
quisition."  In  that  way  I  can  ship;  but  then  the  rates  become  excessive; 
they  are  simply  local  rates.  I  should  say  they  were  from  twenty-five  to 
sixty  per  cent,  higher  than  my  rates  are  now. 

By  Mr.  AT  IIERTON  : 

Q.  Is  the  Government  in  that  case  in  a  worse  position  than  a  private 
freight- shipper? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  because  a  private  freight-shipper  can  pay  the  cash,  and 
I  cannot — cash  will  get  lower  rates  than  a  requisition. 

Q.  I  mean,  does  the  subsidized  railroad  make  any  discrimination 
against  the  Government  ? 

A.  The  railroad  does  not  give  the  Government  through  rates  as  it  does 
with  ci  private  citizen.  The  Government,  however,  gets  from  the  road 
certain  credit  by  way  of  canceling  debts  which  are  not  considered  first 
class. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  When  you  substitute  a  private  contractor  for  the  railroad,  then  the 
Government  pays  cash? 

A.  The  Government  pays  cash. 

Q.  And  dispenses  with  the  credit  ? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  The  credit  is  simply  deferred  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  the  credit  is  deferred. 

Q.  Is  that  for  the  advantage  of  the  Government  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  so.  It  would  depend  upon  how  you  value  the 
credit.  If  the  credit  of  the  company  is  at  par,  it  is  greatly  for  the  ad 
vantage  of  the  Government,  and  it  would  bear  depreciation  at  least  fifty 
per  cent,  before  it  would  cease  to  be  advantageous. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  understand  that  the  Government,  in  any  event,  pays  50  per  cent, 
cash  and  credits  the  railroad  50  per  cent. 

A.  No ;  it  does  not  credit  the  railroad  anything  for  freight  carried 
under  contract.  It  it  pays  any  cash,  it  pays  it  to  the  contractor. 

Q.  Is  the  whole  amount  of  freight  that  the  Government  may  ship 
over  one  of  these  subsidized  roads  credited  to  the  railroad  company  on 
its  indebtedness  to  the  Government  ? 


671 

A.  If  I  ship  as  an  officer  of  the  Government  the  road  receives  no  cash, 
but  is  obliged  to  take  the  whole  amount  in  credit,  according  to  a  recent 
law. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  Does  the  railroad  corporation  claim  the  right  to  charge  in  all  cases 
against  the  Government  its  highest  local  rates  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is,  I  cannot  ship  from  New  York  to  Cheyenne  my 
self,  as  an  officer  of  the  Government,  and  avail  myself  of  the  through 
rates.  I  can  ship  from  New  York  to  Omaha  at  through  rates,  but  then 
I  have  to  pay  local  rates  over  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  from  Omaha 
to  Cheyenne;  but  the  freight-contractor  shipping  from  New  York  may 
go  over  the  Kansas  Pacific,  and  thus  get  a  competing  route  to  Cheyenne, 
which  I  cannot  have  when  my  freight  gets  to  Omaha.  He  can  avail 
himself  of  through  rates  from  New  York  to  Cheyenne,  while  the  Govern 
ment  can  get  the  benefit  of  through  rates  only  to  Omaha,  being  com 
pelled  to  pay  local  rates  from  there  on.  The  Government  could  make 
terms  equally  as  good  as  a  private  individual  can  by  paying  cash,  but 
that  I  am  not  at  liberty  to  do  over  subsidized  roads. 

Q.  Suppose  you  shipped  by  Kansas  City  ? 

A.  Then  I  strike  a  subsidized  road  again,  and  encounter  the  same 
difficulty. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  road  from  Denver  to  Cheyenne  is  not  subsidized  ! 
A.  I  think  it  is. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  do  all  your  proposals  for  supplies  embrace  that  pro 
vision,  that  the  contract  shall  not  be  assigned  or  filled  without  the  written 
consent  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  The  form  of  the  proposal  is  not  stereotyped ;  it  is  not  the  same 
every  j'ear.  Some  years  I  think  it  has  been  in,  and  some  it  has  not. 

Q.  What  meaning  or  construction  do  you  attach  to  the  word  "  filled," 
as  distinguished  from  "  assigned  ?" 

A.  I  think  it  is  a  very  unfortunate  word  to  be  used  in  that  connection. 
I  struck  it  out  this  year. 

Q.  It  is  not  in  the  present  proposals  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  I  should  not  suppose  it  to  be  the  intent  at  all  to  compel 
a  contractor  to  fill  a  contract  personally  ;  that  would  oblige  a  man  to  go 
to  Texas,  and  drive  his  cattle  to  Bed  Cloud  agency,  and  deliver  them 
there  in  person.  So  far  as  I  am  able  to  give  any  meaning  to  that,  I 
supposed  it  was  intended  to  prevent  the  transfer  of  a  contract,  when  a 
bidder  gets  an  award,  to  any  other  party,  except  upon  the  authority  and 
consent  of  the  Department. 

Q.  Well,  that  provision  is  still  retained  so  far  as  the  assignment  of 
the  contract  is  concerned,  but  is  abandoned  so  far  as  filling  the  contract 
is  concerned  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  could  never  myself  give  any  satisfactory  meaning  to 
the  word  "filled"  in  that  connection.  Taken  literally,  it  is  absurd. 

Q.  Have  you,  therefore,  even  when  you  used  it,  ever  practically  sought 
to  enforce  that  provision  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  with  that  meaning. 

Q.  You  construed  the  provision  as  meaning  assigned  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  gave  no  additional  force  to  the  word  "  filled,"  as  used  in  the 
provision  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


672 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Do  you  mean,  Mr.  Smith,  that  where  no  actual  assignment  had  been 
made,  where  the  contract  stood  in  the  name  of  the  original  contractor, 
you  made  no  inquiry  as  to  who  in  fact  made  the  delivery  or  performed 
the  services  called  for  ? 

A.  If  the  service  was  satisfactorily  rendered. 

Q.  You  treated  it  as  if  performed  by  the  contractor,  without  inquiry  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  word  u  filled,'7  as  used  by  those  who 
drew  up  the  provision,  was  aimed  at  any  particular  individual  or  any 
particular  class  of  abuses  ? 

A.  I  do  not;  I  found  the  word  in  the  proposals  that  were  published. 
When  I  came  into  office  the  proposals  were  all  out  for  1873-74,  and  that 
phrase  was  in  them. 

Q.  And  has  since  been  abandoned  by  you? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 
Thursday,  September  16,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  B.  W.  HAR 
RIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  Prof.  GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON,  and 
Hon.  TIMOTHY  O.  HOWE. 
Professor  MARSH  was  also  present. 

The  examination  of  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Af 
fairs,  was  resumed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Commissioner,  will  you  please  to  explain  to  us  the  man 
ner  in  which  Indian  agents  are  appointed  1 

Answer.  They  are  appointed  by  the  President  and  confirmed  by  the  Sen 
ate.  The  President  has  directed  that  all  nominations  of  Indian  agents 
forwarded  to  him  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  shall  come  first  from 
some  representative  officer  of  the  religious  body  to  which  that  agency 
has  been  assigned  for  moral  care  and  instruction. 

Q.  Do  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  make  any  report  upon 
these  nominations? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  these  nominations  are  made  to  the  Secretary  by  the  offi 
cers  of  the  religious  bodies  direct. 

Q.  Then  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  have  no  voice  in  the 
recommendation  of  Indian  agents  ? 

A.  They  have  nothing  to  say  about  it,  officially. 

Q.  How  are  the  agencies  apportioned  among  the  religious  denomina 
tions  ? 

A.  Do  you  mean 

Q.  Who  apportions  them  ? 

A.  The  apportionment  was  first  made  during  the  administration  of 
Secretary  Cox,  following,  as  I  believe,  largely,  and  I  think  entirely, 
the  recommendation  of  Vincent  Colyer,  who  was  then  Secretary  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  As  I  understand  it,  Secretary  Cox 
asked  Mr.  Colyer  to  look  up  this  matter  for  him,  and,  by  corresponding 
with  the  several  religious  societies,  adjust  the  assignment  in  the  best 
way  possible.  Upon  his  report  and  recommendations  the  assignments 
were  made,  with  perhaps  some  changes,  but  not  to  any  great  extent. 


.   673 

Q.  Does  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  recommend  or  suggest 
any  changes  in  agents  f 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  whenever  they  think  the  good  of  the  service  requires 
such  change. 

Q.  Has  that  Board  ever  made  any  recommendation  in  that  respect 
regarding  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Is  there  existing  at  this  time,  so  far  as  you  know,  entire  harmony 
and  accord  in  the  management  of  Indian  affairs  between  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  and  the  Indian  Bureau  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  entire  harmony. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  brought  to  your  knowledge,  as  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  any  charges  against  any  member  of  the  Indian  Board 
for  improper  conduct  as  one  of  the  purchasing-committee  ? 

A.  Aside  from  what  I  saw  in  Professor  Marsh's  statement,  not  any. 
If  you  mean  whether  I  have  heard  any  report 

Q.  Have  there  ever  been  brought  to  your  knowledge,  I  mean,  any 
charges  of  that  kind  in  such  manner  as  would  require  notice  of  them 
on  your  part  9 

A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

•Q.  In  that  connection,  let  me  ask  this  question :  It  has  been  stated 
in  the  newspapers  that  the  agent  of  the  Mission  Woolen  Mills  of  Cali 
fornia  in  this  city  said  the  person  who  was  sent  to  California  to  pur 
chase  blankets  for  the  Indians  made  that  company  pay  him  $1,200  in 
gold  before  he  would  make  the  xmrchase  of  the  blankets.  Have  you 
any  information  in  regard  to  this  matter,  or  has  the  above  statement  in 
any  form  been  brought  to  your  notice  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  saw  it  in  the  paper,  and  I  had  previously  heard  it  some 
where  else,  I  cannot  say  where  now,  and  I  called  the  attention  to  it  of 
one  of  the  commissioners  who  was  in  California  at  the  time  that  this  trans 
action  purports  to  have  taken  place.  In  the  first  place,  the  newspaper 
item  cannot  be  true,  because  there  was  no  purchase  made  of  those 
woolen-mills  in  that  year ;  in  the  second  place,  the  member  of  the  Board 
of  Indian  Commissioners  who  was  the  principal  one  managing  those 
matters  on  the  coast,  denied  to  me  most  positively  that  there  was  a 
shadow  of  anything  to  make  the  story  out  of. 

Q.  You  say  there  were  no  goods  purchased  that  year  of  the  Mission 
Woolen  Mills  of  California  I 

Q.  That  is  as  I  understand  it.  He  said  there  were  no  blankets  pur 
chased,  or  none  of  any  account.  I  am  giving  this  now  from  my  best 
recollection.  It  is  possible  that  I  am  mistaken,  but  I  think  I  am  en 
tirely  right  in  that  statement  as  to  the  purchase. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  By  the  treaty  of  1868  it  is  provided  that  the  Sioux  Indians 
shall  be  located  on  the  Missouri  River,  and  I  believe  a  portion  of 
them  were  at  one  time  located  on  the  Missouri.  Can  you  give  us  the 
reasons,  not  particularly  for  the  location  of  those  Indians  so  far  inland 
as  they  are  located  now,  but  the  reasons,  if  there  are  any  known  to  you, 
for  the  continuing  of  them  so  far  inland  from  the  railroad  and  river? 

A.  The  particular  reason  is  the  utter  refusal  of  the  Indians  to  remove 
to  the  river — to  remove  in  that  direction. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  to  the  contrary,  that  if  the  Govern 
ment  should  locate  its  agency  anywhere  and  refuse  to  issue  rations  to 
43  IF 


674  . 

the  Indians  at  any  other  point,  they  could  do  otherwise  tban  to  go  to 
that  agency? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not  now,  since  we  have  troops  on  the  reservation, 
But  previous  to  that  I  don't  think  it  would  have  been  wise  at  all.  I 
ordered  the  agency  moved  once  in  that  direction.  Spotted  Tail  issued 
counter  orders.  He  was  on  the  ground,  and  having  a  greater  force 
than  I  had  he  beat  me.  Atone  time,  when  a  slight  move  was  under 
taken  by  Agent  Daniels  under  my  orders,  Red  Cloud  ordered  it  back, 
after  the  agency  property  wras  loaded  on  the  wagons  5  but  now,  with  the 
military  acting  in  harmony,  Spotted  Tail  could  be  put  on  the  Missouri 
River  with  great  advantage  to  his  Indians  and  to  the  Government.  I 
am  not  prepared  to  say  that  it  could  also  be  done  with  Red  Cloud,  for 
want  of  timber-lands.  But  if  the  Poncas  were  taken  out  of  the  country 
they  have  been  inhabiting,  and  where  they  ought  never  to  have  been  put, 
being  a  part  of  the  reservation  given  to  the  Sioux  by  the  treaty  of  1868, 
and  belonging  by  right  to  them  to-day  as  much  as  any  country  does  to 
its  inhabitants,  and  put  with  the  Omahas  in  Nebraska,  w;here  they  be 
long  and  where  they  are  willing  to  go,  then  their  present  reservation 
would  make  a  very  suitable  place  for  Red  Cloud  and  all  his  Indians  ; 
but  he  would  be  moved  there  only  by  iorce. 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  as  to  the  means  of  subsistence  of  the 
Indians  there  that  would  lead  you  to  believe  that  they  could  do  other 
wise  than  go  to  the  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  could  go  off  into  the  surrounding  country  and  go  up 
into  the  Big  Horn  and  Powder  River  region,  and  subsist  for  quite  a  while 
hunting  and  depredating;  but  eventually  they  would  be  compelled  by 
force  of  hunger  and  pursuit  of  the  military  to  go.  1  think  it  is  entirely 
feasible,  providing  Congress  will  make  the  necessary  legislation  and 
appropriations. 

Q.  From  your  knowledge  and  experience  in  these  affairs,  do  you  think 
it  is  the  true  policy  of  the  Government  to  make  treaties  and  hold  coun 
cils  with  Indians  in  regard  to  what  the  Government  deems  it  best 
to  do  with  them  ? 

A.  It  is  only  a  question  of  expediency.  If  you  have  force  enough  to 
compel  the  Indians  to  do  what  they  ought  to,  and  which  is  manifestly  for 
their  good,  the  less  you  talk  with  them  about  it,  by  way  of  consultation, 
the  better  ;  but  if  you  have  not  force  enough  to  give  them  to  understand 
that  they  will  be  compelled  immediately  to  obey,  it  is  better  to  parley 
with  them  and  gain  their  consent  in  some  way.  They  call  it  a  council ; 
yon  may  call  it  talk  or  powrwowr;  it  amounts  to  nothing  more. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  would  it  not  be  good  policy  on  the  part  of  the 
Government  to  make  such  a  display  of  force  among  the  Sioux  as  to 
fully  satisfy  the  Indians  of  the  power  of  the  Government  to  compel  them 
to  do  w^hat  it  desires? 

A.  I  think  so  by  all  means.    I  have  always  acted  upon  that  principle, 
to  compel  Indians  to  do  right,  whenever  I  could   reasonably  expect  to 
bring  force  to  bear  upon  them. 
By  Mr.  HARRIS : 

Q.  You  don't  mean  expect  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  because  I  don't  know  when  I  can  have  force  and  when  I  can 
not.  I  have  been  oftentimes  in  doubt  when  I  said  a  thing  whether  I 
could  get  force  to  carry  it  out. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  are  often  in  doubt  when  you  have  made  an  order  affecting 
them  whether  you  can  get  the  force  to  carry  it  out  ? 


675 

A.  I  have  wanted  to  compel  the  Sioux,  and  Northern  Arapahoes  and 
Cheyeunes,  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  to  give  up  the  Indians  among  them 
who  have  murdered  white  men,  and  to  withhold  every  ounce  of  food  un 
til  they  did  it ;  but  I  have  not  been  able  to  bring  it  about  yet. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Will  you  please  explain  that  ? 

A.  In  the  first  place,  the  military  has  not  until  recently  been  in  posi 
tion  at  Eed  Cloud  in  any  adequate  force  ;  then  there  have  been  other  im 
portant  and  somewhat  delicate  questions  occasionally  coming  up,  such 
as  the  relinquishinent  of  the  hunting  privilege  in  Nebraska,  and  now  the 
question  of  the  Black  Hills  cession,  which  seemed  to  be  paramount ;  and 
I  did  not  deem  it  wise  to  strike  in  now]  and  make  any  disturbance 
among  them  until  we  can  adjust  these  other  questions.  But  we  are  only 
holding  them  up  until  we  can  get  at  them  in  the  best  way. 

Q.  Are  the  duties  of  the  superintendents  of  Indians  laid  down  by 
law  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  quite  general  terms. 

Q.  In  addition  to  the  duties  indicated  by  the  law,  are  there  any  other 
duties  specifically  set  forth  for  them  by  the  Department  ? 

A.  I  think  not,  sir.  We  call  on  them  to  do  anything  that  they  can 
do  at  any  time. 

Q.  Have  the  Indian  agents  at  the  agency,  or  the  superintendents, 
power  to  call  upon  the  military  at  their  discretion  to  enforce  their  or 
ders,  or  the  orders  of  the  Indian  Bureau  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  not ;  and  yet  that  question  of  jurisdiction  is  by  no 
means  defined  as  between  the  military  and  civil  authorities. 

Q.  Have  you  experienced  in  the  administration  of  Indian  aftairs  any 
difficulty  from  a  want,  in  agents,  of  the  knowledge  of  the  technical  way 
of  doing  things  by  the  military  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  frequently;  not  any  serious  difficulty,  but  a  serious  fric 
tion. 

Q.  What  I  mean  to  allude  to  particularly  is,  whether  or  not,  in  your 
observation,  the  military  authorities  are  very  technical  and  particular  in 
regard  to  the  manner  in  which  they  are  called  upon  to  perform  services 
for  the  agents,  and  cavil  about  even  the  words  used  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  are  instances  of  that ;  but  it- is  not  by  any 
means  necessarily  so.  That  will  depend  entirely  upon  the  state  of  cor 
diality  between  the  military  officer  who  happens  to  be  in  command  at 
the  agency  and  the  agent.  If  they  like  one  another,  they  get  along 
harmoniously,  but  if  they  don't,  any  amount  of  technicalities  will  be  in 
order.  I  have  found  that  true  at  quite  a  number  of  posts  and  agencies. 

Q.  Well,  if  the  Sioux  agencies  could  be  consolidated,  and  be  put 
somewhere  on  the  line  of  the  railroad  or  on  the  river,  would  it  not  be  a 
very  large  saving  in  the  case  of  furnishing  their  supplies? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  so  far  as  transportation  goes,  it  would ;  but  in  my  view 
of  the  matter  it  would  be  absolutely  impossible  to  consolidate  them  with 
any  view  to  do  anything  for  them,  except  merely  to  muster  them  for 
daily  rations.  If  they  are  to  be  handled  with  any  purpose  to  teach 
them  or  their  children  any  mode  of  living  by  which  they  can  ever  be 
come  self-supporting,  they  must  be  separated  into  small  communities 
and  put  upon  agricultural  lauds.  If  you  should  attempt  to  consolidate 
them  you  could  find  no  place  in  Dakota  where  40,000  Sioux  could  even 
get  fire  wood,  and  cotton- wood  timber  for  their  ponies. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  an  estimate  of  the  number  of  ponies  owned  by 
these  Sioux  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  the  estimate.     I  think  I  have  it  officially,  and 


676 

have  beard  it  stated  several  times ;  but  I  haven't  it  in  mind  just  now ;  it 
is  a  large  number — I  should  say  over  25,000. 

Q.  And  do  you  know  of  any  use  that  they  have  for  them  now  ? 

A.  No  use,  except  to  occupy  their  minds;  they  are  of  no  other  benefit 
whatever. 

Q.  Well,  in  considering  the  subject  of  Indians,  by  the  Department 
and  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  have  you  any  hope  of  civil 
izing  to  any  considerable  extent  the  adult  Indians,  or  is  your  hope  of 
accomplishing  anything  tor  them  in  the  future  entirely  based  upon  the 
expectation  of  educating  and  civilizing  the  children? 

A.  Anything  that  deserves  the  name  of  civilization  can  be  expected 
only  of  the  children;  but  you  must  undertake  a  certain  degree  of  civil 
ization  with  the  old  people  in  order  to  get  the  children,  unless  you  lasso 
them  and  put  them  in  a  corral,  and  send  a  schoolmaster  to  them. 

Q.  Can  you  tell,  from  your  recollection,  whether  Agent  Risley,  formerly 
of  Whetstone  agency,  has  ever  settled  his  accounts  with  the  Govern 
ment  i 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  his  accounts  are  through  the  Treasury.  I 
think  they  are  all  through  my  Bureau,  with  perhaps  a  few  suspensions. 
There  are  probably  accounts  of  other  parties,  for  expenditures  author 
ized  by  Agent  Kisiey,  which  are  not  through  my  Office,  but  not  many, 
and  these  not  properly  his  accounts. 

Q.  Is  there  any  mode  by  which  the  Indian  Bureau,  without  additional 
legislation  by  Congress,  can  so  supply  the  Indian  agencies  with  means 
for  carrying  on  the  necessary  operations  on  their  part  that  they  may  be 
able  to  pay  for  what  they  get  and  preserve  the  credit  by  which  they 
may  be  able  to  buy  what  is  necessary  at  reasonable  prices? 

A.  Do  you  speak  of  the  agents'  personal  credit,  how  they  can  get  an 
honest  living  on  their  salary  and  keep  out  of  debt  ? 

Q.  No,  sir;  I  mean  this  :  We  find  the  fact  to  be  that  the  agents  have 
at  various  times  been  compelled  to  purchase  articles  for  which  they 
have  given  vouchers,  but  which  vouchers  have  not  been  paid,  or  at 
least  not  tor  a  long  time ;  some  of  them  not  paid  at  all ;  in  consequence 
ot  which  I  conclude  that  the  credit  of  the  agent  in  his  community  is 
destroyed,  and  that  when  he  purchases  anything,  the  seller  fixes  a  price 
which  will  compensate  him  for  those  delays  and  for  the  chances  that  he 
takes  of  losing  his  claim  entirely. 

A.  The  only  additional  legislation  would  be  to  provide  the  means 
adequate  for  meeting  the  necessary  expenditures  ;  but  there  has  been  a 
great  deal  of  very  loose  management  in  that  direction.  Agents,  when 
the.v  have  been  in  a  tight  place,  have  ventured  to  incur  liabilities,  trust 
ing  somehow  to  get  out  of  it.  I  found  that  practice  running  on  to 
a  very  unsafe  extent,  and  have  issued  peremptory  orders  to  agents  for 
bidding  them  to  incur,  in  any  circumstances,  any  liability  for  which  they 
have  not  funds  at  their  disposal  to  pay. 

Q.  Then,  if  an  agent  should  be  without  funds  in  his  hands,  no  matter 
what  the  exigencies  might  be,  he  would  not  be  able  to  purchase  any- 
hingf 

•  A.  No,  sir;  under  those  directions  he  violates  the  order  at  his  own 
peril.  Of  course  if  he  can  show  that  there  was  such  an  exigency  as 
would  justify  him,  then  he  is  relieved  from  the  responsibility.  1  am 
satisfied  that  I  have  removed  to  a  considerable  extent  the  bad  credit  of 
Indian  accounts  in  many  cases  I  have  this  to  contend  with,  however, 
that  there  are  many  old  accounts,  dating  back  two  or  three  years,  for 
which  I  have  no  money,  and  have  not  been  able  to  get  any  by  a  defi 
ciency  appropriation.  These  unmet  obligations  are  still  standing  against 


677 

the  reputation  of  the  Indian  Office  for  common  honesty.  But  I  am  sat 
isfied  that  I  am  quite  steadily  bringing  the  expenditures  of  the  Office 
down  to  the  funds  placed  at  its  disposal  in  annual  appropriations. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  would  it  not  be  a  matter  of  real  economy  for  Con 
gress  to  appropriate  a  sufficient  sum  to  cover  all  this  deficiency,  pay  up 
all  the  oustandiug  debts,  and  raise  the  credit  of  the  agencies  ? 

A.  There  is  no  doubt  of  it  whatever,  and  there  is  no  doubt  now 
that  there  will  be  trouble  before  the  end  of  this  year  for  want  of  ade 
quate  appropriation  to  meet  the  necessities  of  the  Sioux  agencies.  I  am 
sure  of  it,  unless  those  Indians  can  get  more  by  hunting  than  they  have 
got  for  the  last  two  winters  ;  that  is,  I  have  not  money  enough  to  feed 
them  through  the  whole  year;  and,  by  law,  I  am  forbidden  to  expend 
for  any  one  mouth  more  of  my  appropriation  than  belongs  to  that 
month,  so  as  to  prevent  the  possibility  of  deficiency  ;  and  about  Novem 
ber  or  December  of  this  year  you  will  hear  of  suffering  at  Red  Cloud 
agency,  and  perhaps  that  the  Indians  are  eating  their  wolves  and  ponies; 
and  this  time  the  report  will  quite  likely  be  true. 

Q.  And  are  there  no  means  in  your  power  to  prevent  that  ? 

A.  Not  by  law  ;  whether  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  or  the  Presi 
dent  will  take  the  risk  of  violating  the  law  of  Congress,  1  cannot  say  ; 
1  propose  to  lay  the  matter  before  the  Department. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  considered  the  subject  of  issuing  clothing  instead 
of  blankets  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  have  tried  to  procure  the  Army  clothing  condemned  by 
the  quartermaster  and  thrown  upon  the  market. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  the  Indians'  hostility  to  the  soldiers  is  such  that 
the  experiment  in  the  first  place  of  getting  them  to  put  on  white  men's 
clothing  had  better  be  made  with  some  other  kind  of  clothing  than  that 
worn  by  the  soldiers  ? 

A.  I  have  not  tried  to  procure  that  clothing  for  the  wild  Indians;  it  is 
only  for  those  Indians  that  have  no  objection  to  it,  and  who  have  asked 
for  clothing.  For  mere  covering,  the  blanket  is  much  cheaper  than 
clothing.  I  can  make  my  money  go  a  good  deal  further  by  buying 
blankets  than  by  furnishing  coats  and  pants,  unless  I  can  buy  the  con 
demned  Army  clothing.  I  think  if  legislation  could  be  procured  which 
would  allow  the  Secretary  of  War  to  transfer  to  the  Department  of  the 
Interior  such  clothing  as  the  Army  has  discarded  on  account  of  st\  le 
or  other  defects,  it  would  be  a  very  large  saving  to  the  Government,  and 
of  great  benefit  to  the  Indians.  The  sales  which  the  quartermaster 
makes  of  this  class  of  clothing  net  very  little  revenue  to  the  Govern 
ment. 

Q.  I  see  in  the  report  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  that 
certain  vouchers  were  disapproved  by  the  Board  on  account  of  the  fact 
that  they  were  vouchers  given  for  corn  that  was  substituted  by  you  for 
.  flour.  Will  you  please  explain  that  transaction  to  the  commission  ? 

A.  I  made  some  reference  to  that  in  my  statement  which  I  made  yes 
terday,  but  I  will  give  a  fuller  statement. 

Q.  We  are  aware  that  the  Indians  like  corn  better  than  flour,  and 
that  they  ought  to  have  corn  in  place  of  some  of  the  flour  issued  to 
them  heretofore  ;  we  have  become  advised  of  that  out  in  their  country. 

A.  When  the  contracts  were  made  in  the  spring  of  1873,  I  had  no 
knowledge — almost  no  knowledge  of  the  condition  of  Indian  affairs.  I 
went  to  the  lettings  in  New  York,  which  had  been  already  provided  for 
by  calling  for  proposals. 

Q.  You  had  just  come  into  office  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  within  ten  days,  I  think,  of  the  time  of  my  coming  into 


678 

office,  so  that  all  the  purchases  for  that  year,  as  well  as  all  the  adtnin- 
istrat'on  of  the  Office,  was  an  experiment  with  me.  I  might  say  here, 
perhaps,  that  I  did  not  find  in  the  Office — in  the  idea  of  the  Office — much 
to  help  me  in  any  plans  looking  specially  toward  the  civilization  of 
Indians.  The  business  of  the  Office,  like  all  Government  matters,  has 
been  a  routine  affair.  It  ought  to  be  said,  in  this  connection,  of  Com 
missioner  Walker,  that  no  man  could  have  been  more  earnest  and  sin 
cere  than  he  in  advancing  Indian  civilization,  but  he  had  other  matters  on 
hand.  He  was  Commissioner  of  the  Census,  and  was  absolutely  unable 
to  take  up  Indian  affairs  and  put  them  on  a  new  basis  to  any  great 
extent,  although  there  was  immense  improvement  in  all  directions 
during  his  brief  administration.  I  did  not  find,  therefore,  in  the  Office 
anything  suggestive  to  me  of  any  requirements  of  Indians,  or  any  neces 
sity,  except  what  I  could  get  from  the  accounts  and  vouchers  of  agents 
and  the  stereotyped  annual  reports ;  so  that  there  was  before  me  an 
entire  terra  incognita.  In  these  circumstances,  I  depended  largely  upon 
the  information  which  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  gave  me, 
knowing  that  they  had  had  these  matters  earnestly  in  hand  for  two 
years,  and  were  studying  the  very  question  that  had  been  on  my  mind 
and  heart  out  among  the  Chippewas  of  Minnesota,  and  the  secretary 
of  the  Board,  Mr.  Cree,  and  myself  were  in  very  frequent  correspondence 
and  in  very  cordial  relations.  He  wrote  me  from  the  Sioux  country, 
sometime  in  the  summer,  that  it  was  a  great  mistake  not  to  provide 
corn  to  a  greater  extent  for  the  Indians. 

Q.  Who  did  you  say  wrote  you u? 

A.  Mr.  Cree,  and  he  presented  the  matter  so  strongly  to  me,  that  I 
saw  at  once  that  it  would  be  a  great  economy  and  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Indians  if  a  part  of  the  flour  which  I  had  purchased  could  be  exchanged 
for  corn,  and  I  immediately  set  about,  doing  it  in  the  best  way  I  could. 
I  had  myself,  when  inspecting  the  Sioux  agencies  along  the  Missouri 
Kiver  that  summer,  noticed  the  great  waste  which  was  made  of  baconr 
in  shipping  it  during  the  hot  months,  by  shrinkage;  I  noticed  waste 
also  around  the  store-house,  and  determined  to  introduce  pork  as  far  as 
possible  instead  of  bacon.  For  these  reasons  I  opened  negotiations 
with  the  contractors  who  had  the  bacon  and  flour  contracts  to  give  me, 
instead  of  flour  and  bacon,  a  certain  portion  of  corn  and  pork.  I -found 
that  the  pork-contractors  were  willing  to  make  the  change.  They  let 
me  have  the  pork  at  a  lower  rate  than  I  was  paying  for  the  bacon  ;  but 
when  I  came  to  the  flour  question,  I  found  that  the  contractor  had  a 
margin  of  profit  on  the  flour  which  he  was  not  willing  to  surrender, 
unless  I  would  give  him  the  same  margin  on  the  corn,  taken  at  the 
market-price.  1  thought  that  to  be  fair,  and  made  the  agreement  with 
him  to  take  a  certain  amount  of  corn  in  lieu  of  a  certain  amount  of  flour. 
I  am  satisfied  that  the  corn  thus  taken  was  of  vastly  more  benefit  to 
the  Indians  than  the  flour  which  I  gave  in  exchange  would  have  been. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  price  paid  for  the  corn  ? 

A.  I  do  not ;  that  whole  matter  is  reported,  with  all  the  correspond 
ence  relative  to  it,  in  the  report  of  the  House  Committee  on  Indian 
Affairs ;  and  the  figures  are  there.  The  statement  of  Mr.  Walker  the 
other  night,  that  I  paid  four  prices  for  the  same  article  at  the  same  place, 
is  a  mistake,  as  you  will  see.  His  mistake  arose  from  the  fact  that  he 
did  not  take  into  consideration  that  I  was  paying  different  rates  for 
freight  to  different  points.  He  reckons  the  costs  of  freight  for  August 
to  all  the  agencies  he  names  as  the  same,  whereas  they  differ  accord 
ing  to  distance  from  Sioux  City.  The  question  was  raised  during  Mr. 
Walker's  testimony  whether  a  certain  quantity  of  corn,  which  it  was 


G79 

found  the  Government  had  lost  by  reason  of  a  miscalculation  on  the 
part  of  a  contractor  when  he  made  the  propositiou  to  exchange  corn  for 
flour,  had  ever  been  delivered  at  Fort  Peck.  I  have  in  my  hand  the  re 
ceipt  of  the  agent  for  that  corn,  amounting  to  83,560  pounds,  and  the 
statement  of  his  issues  of  it  to  the  Indians. 

Q.  This  is  the  document  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  As  I  recollect  it,  the  price  of  corn  at  Sioux  City,  allow 
ing  for  the  margin  of  profit  which  the  contractor  claimed  he  was  enti 
tled  to,  was  fixed  at  $1.90  per  hundred  pounds,  including  the  sacking  ; 
double  sacks. 

Q.  That  was  in  lieu  of  flour  at  what  price? 

A.  It  was  $3.17J  per  100  pounds. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  position  does  Dr.  J.  W.  Daniels  occupy  in  the  Indian  Office  ? 

A.  He  is  now  special  agent,  in  charge  of  the  Black  Hills  commission. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  brought  any  charges,  authoritatively  made  or 
otherwise,  of  dishonesty  in  Indian  matters  on  the  part  of  Daniels  ? 

A.  None  whatever,  unless  you  will  include  newspaper  statements  by 
William  Welsh. 

Q.  A  report  was  made  on  one  occasion  by  Kernble  and  Alvord  in  ref 
erence  to  the  affairs  at  "W  hetstone  agency,  in  which  they  refer  to  Dr. 
Daniels  as  probably  being  engaged  in  the  same  irregularities  as  had 
been  going  on  under  Agent  Risley's  administration  at  Whetstone.  Were 
you  ever  able  to  learn  that  that  was  so,  or  did  you  ever  make  any  efforts 
to  ascertain  the  fact  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  does  not  seem  to  me  possible  that  both  of  those  gentle 
men  could  have  seriously  thought  Agent  Daniels  implicated  in  fraud, 
because  one  or  both  of  them  recommended  to  me  that  Daniels,  who  had 
then  become  Inspector,  should  follow  out  the  investigations  which  they 
had  commenced,  but  were  unable  to  finish.  He  was  recommended  to 
me  as  a  proper  man  to  push  it  through. 

Q.  By  them  ? 

A.  By  Mr.  Kemble,  certainly,  if  not  by  Mr.  Alvord  also  ;  and  Mr.  Kem- 
ble,  under  my  instruc  ions,  went  to  Daniels  privately,  or  wrote  to  him  ; 
at  any  rate,  I  directed  him  to  give  Daniels  the  fullest  information  on 
every  point  where  he  had  any  suspicion  of  wrong,  and  the  best  advice 
as  to  the  means  for  ferreting  it  out.  I  have  always  supposed  Inspector 
Kemble  regarded  Daniels  as  a  thoroughly  upright  man.  I  don't  re 
member  anything  to  the  contrary  as  to  Alvord's  impression  of  his  in 
tegrity,  but  in  a  subsequent  interview  Mr.  Alvord  expressed  his  sur 
prise  that  nothing  wrong  had  been  fastened  upon  Agent  Eisley  or  the 
contractors  by  Daniels's  report. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what,  if  anything,  was  done  by  the  Indian 
Office  in  reference  to  the  report  of  Alvord  and  Kemble. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  was  given  to  Inspector  Daniels  to  investigate. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  They  recommended,  as  I  understand  it,  a  special  investigation. 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  investigation  was  made  by  Daniels  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  We  have  his  report. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  you  have  my  instructions  also  to  Daniels  what  to 
do ;  but  this  ought  to  be  said,  in  respect  to  those  instructions,  that  they 


680 

are  not  full  or  specific,  or  very  emphatic.  They  consist,  principally, 
in  calling  bis  attention  to  the  report  of  Kemble  and  Alvord.  They  were 
purposely  so  framed  on  my  part.  On  reading  the  report  of  Alvord  and 
Kemble,  I  was  quite  sure  that  there  was  something  there  that  ought  to 
be  developed  and  exposed.  I  was  not  sure  that  any  instructions  I  should 
put  on  record  in  my  Office  to  the  Inspector  would  not  get  to  parties 
implicated  for  their  information  and  benefit  as  soon  as  they  would  to 
the  Inspector,  and  for  that  reason  I  did  not  make  my  written  instruc 
tions  to  Daniels  specific,  but  I  went  personally  to  Mr.  Kemble,  and 
afterward  wrote  him  and  made  a  very  strong  point  with  him,  that  he 
should  impress  Inspector  Daniels  with  the  importance  of  finding  the 
truth  of  those  matters. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTOX  : 

Q.  Did  your  instructions  contain,  either  expressly  or  by  implication, 
authority  for  Mr.  Daniels  to  seize,  suddenly,  the  books  and  papers  of 
the  agency  ? 

A.  I  think  not  on  paper,  because  that  would  be  what  I  would  not 
want  the  parties  who  had  the  books  and  papers  to  know  that  he  was  go 
ing  to  do;  but  I  gave  Inspector  Kemble  very  specific  instructions  about 
such  seizure  regarding  it. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  you  gave  Inspector  Daniels  instruc 
tions  what  to  do  in  case  it  should  be  necessary  to  seize  the  books  and 
papers  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  I  gave  Daniels  instructions  to  seize 
books. 

Q.  I  think  you  might  refresh  your  memory  by  looking  at  your  letter 
to  Daniels. 

A.  I  know  it  was  on  my  mind,  but  I  was  cautious  in  the  form  of  the 
letter  to  Daniels,  because  I  supposed  it  might  get  to  the  parties  inter 
ested,  and  so  thwart  the  investigation.  [Referring  to  his  letter.]  I  see 
by  my  instructions  the  direction,  u  If  you  find  it  necessary  to  resort  to 
seizure  of  papers  or  to  other  extreme  measures,  you  will  report  promptly 
by  telegraph  to  this  Office." 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  in  Cheyenne  by  the  name  of  French  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  a  gentleman  by  that  name  from  Cheyenne  in  the  Office. 
I  think  he  is  the  man  who  owns  the  store-house  in  Cheyenne. 

Q.  Yes  ;  I.  W.  French.    When  did  you  first  get  acquainted  with  him? 

A.  I  think  two  years  ago.  It  was  in  connection  with  letting  his  ware 
house  that  he  came  to  see  me. 

Q.  Was  it  ever  brought  to  your  knowledge  that  he  was  a  partner  of  or 
interested  with  McCann  in  any  Government  contracts  ? 

A.  Not  in  any  way  whatever,  except  by  Professor  Marsh  two  or.  three 
months  since,  and  1  am  not  sure  that  he  stated  that  specifically,  but  he 
stated  his  belief  that  French  and  McCanu  were  closely  connected. 

Q.  Did  you  have  information  before  the  time  he  was  designated  as  a 
person  to  keep  some  samples  of  flour  at  Cheyenne  that  he  was  in  any 
manner  connected  with  any  Indian  contracts  ? 

A.  Not  in  the  least,  sir.  I  did  not  know  that  he  was  the  party  desig 
nated  by  the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne  until  some  time  after,  I  think  not 
until  Mr.  Marsh  told  me  in  April  last. 

Q.  If  you  recollect,  you  may  state  now  the  reason  for  the  order  which 
you  made  at  the  time  for  reserving  a  sample  ot  flour  to  be  examined  by 
the  inspector,  forwarding  the  flour  on  to  the  agency. 

A.  As  I  recollect  it,  there  was  immediate  demand  for  flour  at  the  agency. 


681 

No  inspector  had  been  appointed  at  Cheyenne.  The  contract  for  flour 
had  been  awarded ;  the  sample  on  which  it  was  awarded  was  yet  in 
New  York  waiting  the  appointment  of  inspector.  When  the  call  came 
for  flour,  at  once  I  directed  the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne,  Mr.  Palmer,  I 
think  it  was,  to  procure,  through  a  competent  party,  a  sample  of  the 
flour  already  delivered,  and  to  retain  such  sample  for  comparison  with 
the  sample  on  which  the  contract  was  based,  and  not  to  give  any  receipt 
for  the  flour  to  the  contractor  until  it  was  found  that  the  sample  retained 
was  equal  to  the  actual  sample.  From  the  information  received  I  thought 
the  exigency  to  be  such  as  not  only  to  justify  but  to  require  such  action 
on  my  part,  and  depending  on  the  integrity  arid  competency  of  the  store 
keeper  to  procure  proper  inspection,  I  supposed  I  was  entirely  safe. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Admitting  the  necessity  of  flour  at  the  agency,  was  there  any  need 
of  sending  on  ten  car-loads  without  any  other  inspection  than  this  you 
named  ? 

A.  I  am  not  aware  that  I  gave  instructions  to  send  ten  car,- loads,  and 
I  could  not  say  now  from  recollection  what  was  the  extent  of  the  neces 
sity,  as  represented.  I  am  not  aware  that  that  amount  was  shipped  at 
that  time. 

Mr.  HARRIS,  (to  Professor  Marsh.)  Is  there  any  evidence  in  the  case 
that  that  amount  was  sent  forward  ? 

Professor  MARSH.  I  think  so. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Oh,  no ;  there  is  no  such  evidence. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Oh,  no ;  not  at  all ;  there  was  only  a  small  quantity  sent 
forward. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  understood  it  was  ten  car-loads. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  correspondence  between  the  Indian  Office  and 
the  church  authorities  or  other  persons  with  reference  to  the  nomination 
of  any  successor  to  Saville  as  agent  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  Agent  Saville  has  sent  in  his  resignation  ;  and  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Eogers,  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Episcopal  Missions,  has  been 
requested  to  nominate  his  successor.  Action  on  Saville's  resignation 
has,  however,  been  held  up  until  the  result  of  this  investigation,  and  this, 
as  I  understand,  in  accordance  with  Saville's  request. 

Q.  Was  the  resignation  received  before  this  investigation  began  I 

A.  Yes,  sir.  He  wrote  the  resignation  while  he  was  with  the  Sioux 
delegation  in  Washington. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 
Q.  At  what  time  ? 
A.  In  May  last. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  what  has  been  the  conclusion  of  your  agricultural  ex 
periments  there  in  that  Sioux  country  f  Have  they  been  such  as  to  en 
courage  the  Government  in  further  expenditure  for  plows,  cows,  and 
oxen  ? 

A.  By  the  Sioux  country  do  you  mean  those  two  agencies — lied  Cloud 
and  Spotted  Tail  I 

Q.  Yes,  sir. 

A.  If  those  two  agencies  were  by  themselves,  and  it  were  certain  that 
those  Indians  would  always  remain  there,  I  should  say  there  was  very 
little  encouragement ;  but  taken  in  connection  with  the  main  tribe,  of 


682 

which  they  are  only  about  one-third  or  a  little  more,  there  is  a  neces 
sity  that  something  shall  be  done — a  beginning  must  be  made  though 
it  is  the  smallest — in  the  effort  to  bring  them  into  another  condition. 
Those  Indians  cannot  contiuue'as  they  are.  They  must  be  brought  to 
get  a  living  out  of  the  soil,  either  by  herding  or  planting ;  and  some 
sort  of  a  beginning,  though  expensive,  is  necessary,  because  there  must 
be  a  beginning,  no  matter  how  expensive  it  is.  The  question  now  is  not 
whether  you  will  begin,  but  what  is  the  best  beginning  you  can  make. 

Q.  So  far  the  experiment  has  been  unsuccessful  there  f 

A.  Yes,  sir.  And  that  is  what  any  one  might  expect  from  the  sur 
roundings  ;  but  if  order  and  law  could  be  established  among  them, 
they  could  be  made  more  successful,  though  not  to  any  extent  in  their 
present  locality  beyond  the  mere  accustoming  the  Indians  to  some  sort 
of  labor. 

Q.  You  speak  of  the  relations  of  the  civil  to  the  military  authorities. 
Have  you  known  any  instances  in  which  the  military  have  failed  to  re 
spond  promptly  to  the  demand  of  the  agent  when  there  was  a  proper 
occasion  for  their  interposition  ? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir  ;  quite  a  number.  I  am  not  now  speaking  of  Red  Cloud 
and  Spotted  Tail ;  I  am  speaking  of  the  Indian  service.'  If  you  confine 
your  question  to  those  two  agencies,  I  might  modify  my  answer.  Dif 
ferences  have  arisen  with  the  military  at  these  points.  I  am  unable  to 
judge  who  was  right ;  but  Agent  Saville  and  Agent  Howard  thought 
that  the  military  did  not  quite  do  their  duty.  I  could  not  well  decide 
between  them. 

Q.  In  the  communication  that  you  placed  before  us  yesterday,  you  say 
that,  notwithstanding  the  unfavorable  statements  of  Samuel  Walker, 
yet  after  you  liad  received  the  report  of  the  commission  of  which  Bishop 
Hare  was  chairman  you  gave  your  entire  confidence  to  Dr.  Saville. 
Was  that  based  upon  the  confidence  you  had  in  the  personal  character  of 
Bishop  Hare  or  those  who  were  concurring  with  him  in  that  commis 
sion  ? 

A.  I  had  no  acquaintance  with  Dr.  Saville  at  that  time,  except  by 
office  correspondence.  I  could  have  known  of  him  therefore  in  this  re 
spect  only  by  reason  of  his  nomination  by  the  Episcopal  board,  which 
was  made,  as  I  understood,  on  the  recommendation  of  William  Welch 
of  Philadelphia;  I  must  have  depended  upon  his  credentials  and  this 
report  of  Bishop  Hare. 

Q.  W^ell,  were  not  Mr.  Hinrnau  and  Dr.  Bevier  members  of  that  com 
mission  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  not,  as  early  as  October,  1874,  by  letter  and  conversa 
tion  with  you,  indicate  their  total  change  of  opinion  in  regard  to  Dr. 
Saville  ? 

A.  I  have  no  recollection  of  either  of  those  parties  having  any  conver 
sation  with  me  to  that  effect,  nor  have  I  any  recollection  now  of  having 
received  any  communication  from  them,  except  this  correspondence  and 
an  official  report  of  Dr.  Bevier,  which  you  have  here. 

Q.  Was  not  the  report  of  Dr.  Bevier,  in  which  he  announces  to  you 
the  character  of  that  Appleton  contract,  laid  before  you  as  early  as  Oc 
tober,  1874? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  so. 

Q.  From  his  statement  of  that  contract,  could  you  draw  any  other  in 
ference  than  that  the  agent  there  was  seeking  to  perpetrate  fraud  ? 

A.  That  is  the  inference  I  did  draw  from  it,  and  which  I  was  troubled 
about ;  and  I  was  anxious  to  know  what  possible  explanation  he  could 


683 

give  for  such  transactions.  My  concern  is  shown  in  rny  letter  in  the  ex 
pression  "I  don't  understand,7'  &c.  And  I  also  spoke  to  Bishop  Hare 
about  it  on  several  occasions  :  and  we  agreed  that  Saville  was  entitled 
to  a  hearing  in  the  case  before  being  condemned,  and  he  had  it.  When 
his  explanation  came  it  modified  very  much  the  impression  I  had  received 
from  Bevier's  report. 

Q.  Did  his  explanation  change  the  facts  as  stated  by  Dr,  Bevier  in 
his  report  I 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  think  it  did.  Take  his  explanation  about  the  capacity 
of  that  saw-mill  and  the  amount  of  timber  he  sawed  and  you  see  it  is 
not  fair  to  make  any  sort  of  comparison  between  what  a  mill  can  be 
made  to  do  in  Minnesota  or  Colorado  and  what  that  mill  could  be  made 
to  do. 

Q.  Was  there  any  action  taken  by  the  Department  in  reference  to 
that  transaction  and  its  consequent  bearing  upon  the  fitness  of  the  agent 
to  hold  that  position, 'until  the  attention  of  the  public  was  called  to  it 
by  the  letter  of  Mr.  Marsh  to  the  President  of  the  United  States  ? 

A.  There  was  no  formal  action  taken  except  to  ask  an  explanation  of 
the  agent.  I  consulted,  as  I  have  stated,  with  Bishop  Hare,  who  was 
the  representative  of  their  board,  and  who  had  personal  acquaintance 
with  Saville,  and  was  responsible  to  a  certain  extent  for  him,  and  rested 
there,  so  far  as  any  movement  for  displacing  Saville  was  concerned. 

Q.  Then  you  rested  entirely  on  his  own  personal  statement  of  the 
matter  in  opposition  to  the  facts  as  reported  to  you  by  the  inspector  of 
the  Government! 

A.  No  ;  I  found  from  the  additional  facts  brought  out  by  the  subse 
quent  statement  that  the  inspector  was  mistaken.  He  did  not  state 
correctly  and  fairly  the  facts  about  the  mill  $  he  was  misled  himself  and 
he  did  not  give  a  fair  statement  in  regard  to  the  cost  of  sawing  of  those 
logs. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Explain  in  what  respect. 

A.  The  Inspector  in  his  report,  as  you  will  find  it — as  he  read  it  to 
you  last  night — does  not  speak  of  the  capacity  of  the  mill  at  all,  but 
speaks  of  the  price  which  is  ordinarily  paid  for  such  labor  at  other  mills, 
and  makes  a  very  severe  implication  against  any  man  who  would  make 
such  a  contract  as  the  Appleton  contract.  The  fact  is  that  the  Ked 
Cloud  mill  was  crippled  and  broken  down  ;  that  it  required  frequent  re 
pairs,  which  the  contractor  had  to  do  ;  and  during  such  repairs  he  would 
have  to  stop  his  work  arid  keep  his  hands  on  pay  in  idleness.  Saville 
reports  the  mill  as  capable  of  sawing  only  twelve  or  fifteen  hundred  feet  a 
day,  while  an  ordinary  mill  will  turn  out  from  ten  to  thirty  thousand. 

Q.  What  possible  explanation  could  have  been  given  to  you  in  refer 
ence  to  the  fact  that  he  had  agreed  with  his  father-in-law  to  build  the 
slaughter-house  at  the  price  of  $450,  since  it  is  ascertained  that  it  was 
sublet  for  $180? 

A.  1  don't  know  that  any  explanation  ever  was  given,  unless  it  can 
be  found  in  the  fact  that  a  mechanic  can  well  do  a  job  for  a  responsible 
man  who  will  pay  promptly,  at  a  much  less  figure  than  for  the  Govern 
ment,  because  in  the  latter  case  he  is  compelled  to  wait  for  his  money 
until  long  after  the  work  is  done,  and  is  not  sure  of  it  then. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  this  sub-contractor  did  not  agree  to  wait  until 
Mr.  Appleton  was  paid  by  the  Government  ? 

A.  I  don't  know,  but  it  is  a  very  common  transaction  in  that  country 


684 

for  parties  to  procure  service  for  cash  at  considerable  discount  from 
Government  prices. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  The  papers  which  we  have  show  that  Mr.  Appleton  paid 
that  bill  in  money. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  I  understood  you  in  your  statement  to  say  that  all  the 
money  due  to  McCanu  for  the  freight-contracts  for  the  years  1873-'74, 
and  1874-75,  were  paid  in  full  of  those  contracts  on  the  2d  of  August, 
1875? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  did  not  make  that  statement,  quite.  That  is  a  differ 
ent  statement  from  what  I  made;  yet  I  think  it  substantially  true. 
"What  I  state  is,  that  at  the  end  of  the  year  1874-'75,  the  Office  owed  Mc- 
Caun  for  transportation  a  certain  amount.  That  amount  was  not  paid 
to  him  until  the  2d  of  August,  when  it  was  paid. 

Q.  When  that  was  paid  to  him  on  the  2d  of  August,  1875,  didn't  that 
pay  him  all  that  he  claimed  on  his  freight  contracts  for  the  years  1873-74, 
and  1874-'75  ? 

A.  That  I  don't  know.     1  will  look  it  up  if  you  desire. 

Q.  I  understood  that  to  be  a  proposition  in  that  communication,  and 
that  your  justification  in  doing  it  was  this,  that  you  had  entered  into 
the  contract  for  transportation  with  McCaiiu,  which  afforded  you  a  com 
plete  indemnity  against  these  differences  of  distance,  which  were  the 
subject  of  controversy  between  you  and  him. 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  you  have  got  at  the  fact  I  was  attempting  to  illustrate, 
but  not  in  exactly  the  form  I  was  putting  it.  I  was  trying  to  show  when 
I  made  the  settlement  that  I  did  not  pay  for  May  and  June  service  until 
August  2,  because  if  I  had  paid  it  before  that  I  would  not  have  had 
any  hold  on  McOann  to  any  amount. 

Q.  The  contract  is  at  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  for  those  two 
previous  years  ? 

A.  For  the  year  1873-'74. 

Q.  Then  your  reliance  for  some  future  settlement  with  McCaim,  in 
relation  to  this  point  in  controversy  between  you  and  him  as  to  distance 
between  Cheyenne  and  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  you  supposed  had  suffi 
cient  protection  in  the  new  contract  you  had  entered  into  with  him  for 
transportation  for  1875-'76  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  the  contract  entered  into? 

A.  August  2,  I  believe.  I  am  answering  now  from  a  memorandum 
which  was  prepared  for  me  from  the  records  by  a  clerk  in  the  office. 

Q.  You  supposed,  then,  that  on  the  2d  of  August,  1875,  you  entered 
with  him  into  a  new  contract  for  1875-'7(>  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  security  could  the  Government  possibly  have  on  that 
day  as  indemnity  for  those  matters  you  had  paid  over  to  McOann  ? 

A.  On  the  5th  of  August,  when  the  retained  balance  was  paid  to  Mc- 
Cann,  he  had  annuity-goods  already  on  the  way  under  his  new  contract ; 
he  wras  under  bonds  to  carry  that  contract  out,  and  I  could  compel  him 
to  carry  it  out,  and  when  he  came  to  receive  pay  for  the  service  I  could 
reserve  this  amount  found  due  on  the  old  account. 

Q.  But  suppose  that  McCaun  had  failed  on  that  day? 

A.  Then  I  would  have  sued  on  his  bond. 

Q.  What  for? 

A.  For  failure  to  carry  out  the  contract. 

Q.  So  you  think  you  could  have  sued  that  bond  for  $51,000  to  recover 


685 

against  McCann  and  his  securities  for  the  matters  rising  in  the  years 
1873-74  out  of  difference  of  opinion  between  you  and  himself  as  to  the 
distance  between  Cheyenne  and  Ked  Cloud  agency? 

A.  His  bondsmen  could  be  held  responsible  for  carrying  out  his  con 
tract.  I  should  have  shipped  those  goods  immediately  and  called  on 
them  to  make  payment  for  the  shipment. 

Q.  If  he  failed  to  carry  out  the  contract  of  1875-'76,  undoubtedly  his 
bondsmen  would  have  been  responsible. 

A.  I  should  have  shipped  goods  immediately  and  charged  the  amounts 
to  McCann  for  the  service  rendered.  McCanu's  bondsmen  would  have 
been  obliged  to  settle  that  account. 

Q.  Well,  now,  let  me  ask  you,  Mr.  Smith,  do  you  think  that  practice 
in  the  Department  is  one  conducive  to  the  public  service  ? 

A.  I  thiu*k  the  action  which  I  took  perfectly  protected  the  Department 
for  alf  practical  purposes. 

Q.  So  it  might,  but  has  it  not  a  pernicious  effect  ?  Might  it  not  induce 
the  Government  to  give  to  a  man  a  contract  which,  for  other  reasons, 
he  would  not  be  entitled  to? 

A.  I  don't  see  how  it  would  be  possible. 

Q.  Does  it  not  afford  the  contractor  this  inducement,  to  create  a  con 
troversy  with  the  Government  for  the  sake  of  securing  a  new  contract? 

A.  It  is  possibly  so ;  I  don't  look  at  it  in  that  light,  however.  I  con 
sider  that  McCann  had  certain  rights  in  the  case ;  that  this  survey  had 
been  delayed,  and  he  was  not  responsible  for  the  delay  ;  that  was  the 
failure  or  misfortune  of  the  Government ;  the  office  had  failed  all  along 
to  get  the  measurement.  I  didn't  feel  like  keeping  the  man  out  of  his 
money  an  hour  after  I  was  sure  he  was  entitled  to  it,  and  that  he  had 
made  the  Government  entirely  secure  of  a  final  settlement  on  facts 
and  equity. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Under  what  contract  was  the  transportation  of  July  ? 

A.  McCann's.  He  had  already  performed  service  on  this  contract  be 
fore  it  was  actually  signed  ;  he  was  carrying  it  on  in  good  faith.  There 
was  not  a  shadow  of  doubt  but  there  could  be  this  amount  held  at  any 
time  against  him. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  it  was  ascertained  there  was  this  ques 
tion  of  distance  between  Cheyenne  and  lied  Cloud  ? 

A.  I  think  the  question  was  raised  in  connection  with  the  new  con 
tract  made  with  McCann. 

Q.  When  was  that? 

A.  Some  time  in  the  fall  previous  to  this  summer ;  in  November,  I 
should  judge,  or  October. 

Q.  November,  1874? 

A.  1873. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  How  was  this  distance  of  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  first  de 
termined  ? 

A.  McCann  and  I  had  quite  a  dispute  over  that.  I  have  forgotten 
what  computation  he  made;  he  showed  the  figures  of  distarce  that  had 
been  allowed  before  to  this  point,  which  would  make  it  two  hundred  and 
twenty  miles.  The  new  point  was  in  fact  an  old  point,  that  is,  the  old  Whet 
stone  agency  was  right  by  where  the  new  Bed  Cloud  agency  is,  so  that  it 
was  a  matter  pending  for  official  settlement,  and  he  claimed  that  the  dis 
tance  conceded  between  old  lied  Cloud  and  new  Red  Cloud,  added  to  the 


686 

distance  which  had  been  paid  for  by  the  Office,  would  make  two  hun 
dred  and  twenty  miles  from  Cheyenne  to  new  Red  Cloud. 

Q.  You  stated,  I  think,  in  New  York  that  this  distance  of  two  hun 
dred  and  twelve  miles  was  fixed  by  Commissioner  Walker  himself,  who 
went  twice  over  the  road  ? 

A.  Of  course  I  didn't  state  that  of  my  own  knowledge.  My  impres 
sion  is  that  this  distance,  allowing  the  distance  from  Bed  Cloud  to  new 
Ked  Cloud  to  be  eighty  miles,  was  fixed  practically  by  Commissioner 
Walker,  after  passing  over  the  route  from  Cheyenne  to  old  lied  Cloud, 
and  fixing  upon  a  distance  between  those  points.  That  was  McCann's 
claim,  that  the  distance  from  old  Eed  Cloud  to  new  Eed  Cloud  had  been 
allowed  by  the  Government  at  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles,  and 
that  after  the  Commissioner  had  ridden  twice  over  the  route  in  an  ambu 
lance.  I  had  the  impression  that  this  distance  was  thus  fix£d  definitely 
to  the  Whetstone  agency  by  Commissioner  Walker  ;  but  I  do  not  find 
any  record  to  that  effect,  and  I  see  that  there  was  no  occasion  for  fixing 
the  distance  to  Whetstone  agency  by  him,  because  that  freight  during 
his  administration  came  the  other  way — from  the  Missouri  River. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  at  the  close  of  the  last  fiscal  year 
McCanu  had  a  claim  against  the  Bureau  amounting  to  something  more 
than  $14,000  for  transportation  rendered  in  the  last  two  months  of  the 
year? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  claim  was  based  upon  an  allegation  that  his  transportation 
had  been  conducted  over  a  line  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles  in 
length? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  if  the  line  was  that  long  the  Bureau  owed  him  that  sum  of 
$14,000  5  and  if,  in  fact,  the  line  was  less  than  that,  the  Bureau  did  not 
owe  him  so  much  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  $14,000  was  the  sum  retained  and  deemed  sufficient  to 
settle  his  accounts  on  the  basis  stated. 

Q.  And  that  you  had  withheld  payment  of  that  sum  of  $14,000  to 
await  the  determination  of  the  exact  length  of  the  line  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  that  is  the  exact  state  of  the  case. 

Q.  And  that  controversy  arose  on  a  contract  which  commenced  with 
the  beginning  of  the  fiscal  year  and  closed  with  the  fiscal  year  *? 

A.  1  think  the  contract  commenced  three  or  four  months  after  the 
beginning. 

Q.  And  it  was  the  contract  of  that  year,  and  terminated  at  the  close 
of  that  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  subsequently  you  made  a  contract  with  the  same  man  to 
carry  goods  for  the  current  fiscal  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That,  having  made  that  second  contract  with  McCann  for  carrying 
goods,  you  waived  the  controversy  touching  the  earnings  under  the 
former  contract  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn't  waive  that  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  paid  him  an  amount  which  he  claimed  as  if  he  had  ren 
dered  a  service  over  the  whole  line  he  claimed  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


687 

Q.  And  your  supposition  was,  if  I  understand  you,  that  you  could,  in 
settling  with  McCann  under  the  contract  for  the  current  year,  reclaim 
any  amount  of  this  $14,000  that  you  should  subsequently  ascertain  was 
an  overpayment  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  was  what  he  agreed  to  ;  he  did  not  put  his  agree 
ment  in  writing,  but  he  made  the  proposition  before  a  witness. 

Q.  It  is  not  in  writing? 

A.  It  is  not  in  writing  for  that  year,  but  it  was  an  express  understand 
ing. 

Q.  Do  you  rely,  therefore,  upon  the  understanding,  or  upon  any  in 
herent  power  in  the  Department  ? 

A.  I  was  relying  upon  my  power  to  make  him  do  what  he  agreed  to. 

Y.  But  his  agreement  this  year  is  to  carry  goods  for  such  a  price  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  if  he  carries  goods  at  the  price  agreed  upon,  is  he  not  entitled 
to  the  money  which  you  agreed  to  pay  him  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  if  he  agreed  we  should  hold  back  part  of  it. 

Q.  Supposing  he  had  not  agreed  to  that  ? 

A.  Then  he  would  not  have  got  the  $14,000. 

Q.  If  he  carries  all  the  goods  for  the  current  year  that  he  has  agreed 
to  carry,  you  will  not  pay  him  the  price  you  have  agreed  to  pay  ;  do  you 
mean  to  say  that  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  if  he  is  found  indebted  to  the  Government,  for  any  cause 
whatever,  to  any  amount,  it  will  be  taken  out  of  amounts  found  due  him. 
If  I  am  in  doubt  about  any  account,  I  notify  the  accounting-officers  of  the 
Treasury,  and  they  don't  pay  any  more  until  the  doubt  is  settled.  It 
would  be  absolutely  impossible  for  him  to  get  a  cent  from  the  Treasury, 
if  the  officers  of  that  Department  are  apprised  that  there  is  an  old  ac 
count  against  him. 

Q.  You  are  quite  sure  that  is  so  ? 

A.  I  am  absolutely  sure.  They  are  frequently  sending  back  accounts, 
with  a  portion  of  the  claim  suspended,  because  the  claimant  is  indebted 
on  a  previous  account,  which  has  not  been  settled. 

Q.  Let  us  see  about  that.  There  has  gone  into  the  Treasury  Depart 
ment,  for  audit,  an  account  for  $14,000  to  Mr.  McCann  on  transportation 
done  in  May  and  June,  1875.  That  has  been  audited  and  allowed,  has 
it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  account  is  settled? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  Indian  Bureau,  therefore,  and  the  Treasury  Department — the 
accounting-officers  in  the  Treasury  Department — have  assented  to  Mr. 
McCann's  claim,  that  he  had  transported  so  many  goods  from  such  a 
distance,  and  have  paid  him  the  money  for  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Kow,  you  are  still  quite  sure  that  it  is  to-day  in  your  power  and  in 
the  power  of  the  accounting-officers  to  say  that  he  did  not  earn  that 
$14,000,  and  therefore  they  may  offset  it  against  his  earnings  this  year 
under  his  present  contract  ? 

A.  Yres,  sir ;  there  is  not  a  shadow  of  question  about  it ;  from  my  ex 
perience  with  the  accounting-officers  of  the  Treasury,  I  know  they 
never  hesitate  a  moment  to  deduct  from  any  account  any  sum  a  claim 
ant  owes  the  Government  on  any  other  account  whatever. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  From  your  statement,  as  I  understand  it,  the  books  would  not 
show  that  he  owed  anything  ? 


688 

A.  No  account  for  service  to  the  Indian  Bureau  can  get  to  the  Treas 
ury  without  passing  through  my  hands,  and  when  McCann's  passes  me 
it  goes  with  the  statement  of  what  is  still  due  on  the  old  account. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  If  his  accounts  were  allowed  and  dated  the  2nd  of  August,  for 
services  rendered  up  to  June,  had  he  also  rendered  any  services  under 
the  new  contract,  for  which  he  would  be  entitled  to  compensation  only 
under  that  new  contract? 

A.  He  had  not  completed  any  services.  He  had' services  initiated, 
which,  in  all  human  probability,  he  would  complete. 

Q.  And  would  the  pay  for  the  amount  of  that  transportation  which 
he  was  then  engaged  in  moving  be  sufficient  to  indemnify  the  Govern 
ment  for  any  overpayment  under  the  old  contract  on  account  of  the 
difference  in  distance  ? 

A.  Abundantly. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  I  want  to  pursue  this  matter  one  step  further.  I  understand  you 
distinctly  that,  if  you  ascertain  at  any  time  hereafter  that  Mr.  Mc- 
C<mu's  line  of  transportation  is  less  than  two  hundred  and  twelve  miles, 
and  that  therefore  you  overpaid  him  ten  or  twelve  thousand  dollars, 
you  will  refuse  to  pay  him  that  as  a  sum  of  his  earnings  under  his  pres 
ent  contract? 

A.  Certainly. 

Q.  And  >ou  suppose  the  auditing-officers  of  the  Treasury  Depart 
ment  will  support  your  view  ? 

A.  I  know  they  will. 

Q.  You  understand  the  current  contract  is  one  on  which  he  may  sue 
the  Government  of  the  United  States  f 

A.  Yes ;  he  can  come  into  the  Court  of  Claims. 

Q.  And  bring  the  Government  in? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  you  undertake  to  withhold  $10,000  which  he  owes  under 
his  existing  contract,  and  he  goes  into  the  Court  of  Claims  and  sues  the 
Government  to  recover  that  balance,  has  he  got  to  aver  anything  more 
than  that  he  carried  so  many  goods,  that  the  Government  agreed  to 
pay  him  so  much  money  therefor,  and  that  the  Government  has  refused 
to  pay  him  this  balance  of  $10,000? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  suppose  not. 

Q.  And  if  he  maintains  those  allegations,  what  is  your  answer  in 
the  Court  of  Claims  ? 

A.  1  should  have  no  answer  there. 

Q.  Then  he  would  get  a  judgment  on  the  whole  amount? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  and  he  would  be  sued  on  his  agreement  to  return  the 
other,  according  to  his  written  agreement  with  the  Secretary. 

Q.  I  don't  understand  that  it  was  a  written  agreement. 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir;  there  was  a  verbal  agreement  as  to  this  $14,000; 
but  at  the  outset  there  was  a  written  agreement,  which  he  has  signed, 
with  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  that  after  the  distance  is  fixed  a  final 
settlement  should  be  had  on  that  distance. 

Q.  You  are  stating  the  contents  of  a  written  agreement  from  recol 
lection  ? 

A.  You  have  it  there. 

Q.  Now,  see  if  you  are  quite  right  in  stating  the  contents  of  that 
written  agreement;  see  if  he  does  not  stipulate  that  you  may  reserve 
it  from  a  particular  fund,  and  that  fund  one  earned  under  the  contract 


689 

of  last  year,  and  that  fund  you  have  already  paid  over.    Now,  what 
would  be  your  answer  in  the  Court  of  Claims"? 

A.  I  would  have  none  in  the  Court  of  Claims. 

Q.  And  he  would  get  judgment? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  judgment  would  be  paid  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  then  would  be  the  relief  of  the  Government,  Mr.  Smith? 

A.  The  Government  could  bring  him  into  court  on  equity,  under  his 
agreement. 

Q.  Suppose  it  could;  is  it  not  a  payment  that  his  bonds  would  not  be 
responsible  for? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  no  doubt  of  that. 

Q.  Then  you  have  nothing  but  his  individual  responsibility  to  rest 
upon  ? 

A.  And  the  absolute  fact  that  he  was  transporting  goods ;  that  he 
was  already  engaged  in  the  transportation,  and  was  thus  already 
brought  under  my  power,  and  was  every  day  becoming  more  so,  to  this 
extent  at  least,  that  I  could  keep  him  from  getting  any  pay  on  that 
large  contract  until  he  should  get  his  case  through  all  the  delays  of  the 
Court  of  Claims,  which  would  take  him  along  time,  several  years  prob 
ably,  and  would  break  up  his  transportation  business  entirely,  for  he 
was  depending  on  his  monthly  receipts  from'  the  Government,  and  place 
him  in  the  attitude  of  a  defaulter  on  his  agreement  with  the  Depart 
ment  ;  so  that  there  was  not,  in  my  mind,  the  remotest  probability  that 
he  would  think  for  a  moment  of  such  a  thing,  of  attempting  to  evade  his 
obligations. 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  you  expressed  an  opinion  in  your  remarks  here  before  us 
that  pork  should  be  substituted  as  food  for  the  Indians  in  lieu  of  bacon. 
Has  not  that  been  utterly  abandoned  by  the  Government  as  an  article 
of  supply  to  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  am  forcing  pork  on  the  northern  Indians  as  fast  as  I  can 
compel  them  to  take  a  certain  amount  of  it  instead  of  bacon  every  year. 

Q.  Haven't  you  ascertained  by  the  experience  of  the  Red  Cloud 
agency  that  it  is  not  a  proper  article  of  food  for  the  Indians  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  abandoned  it  at  Bed  Cloud  for  another  reason  ;  it 
is  because  it  costs  fully  as  much  as  or  more  than  bacon  delivered  at  that 
agency  ;  but  on  the  river  I  enforce  it,  because  transportation  is  low  in 
price,  and  that  makes  pork  cheaper  than  bacon. 

Q.  Now,  in  regard  to  pork  in  barrels,  how  much  of  the  weight  is  em 
braced  in  the  mere  liquor  in  the  barrels  ? 

A.  About  one-third  of  a  barrel.  One-third  of  what  a  barrel  of  pork 
weighs  is  not  pork,  but  is  liquor  and  salt  and  barrel. 

Q.  Would  you  regard  that  as  wise  economy  on  the  part  of  the  Gov 
ernment,  paying  so  heavily  for  transportation,  or  paying  for  transporta 
tion  of  so  much  barrel  and  liquor  instead  of  bacon  ? 

A.  If  the  additional  transportation  does  not  exceed  the  margin  be 
tween  the  cost  of  bacon  and  pork,  as  it  does  not  by  considerable  at 
several  points,  it  is  still  good  economy. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  It  is  because  the  transportation  exceeds  the  margin  tha*}  jou 
abandoned  the  use  of  it  at  Red  Cloud  agency  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir  ;  for  no  other  reason. 

44  i  F 


690 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  you  were  asked  about  the  duties  of  the  superiutend- 
ency.  Is  it  not  a  part  of  the  duty  of  the  Indian  superintendents  to  ex 
amine  and  inspect  the  agencies? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  are  responsible  for  the  orderly  and  proper  conduct 
of  the  agencies  under  their  charge,  and  that  implies  inspection  and 
visitation. 

Q.  Do  your  superintendents  ever  perform  that  duty  ? 

A.  Yes,  quite  frequently  ;  I  have  only  two  superintendents, though. 

Q.  I  thought  there  were  four. 

A.  Only  two. 

Q.  Has  the  Superintendent  who  resides  at  Omaha  ever  visited  any  of 
the  agencies  ? 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir ;  visited  all  his  agencies,  I  suppose.  I  know  he  vis 
ited  two  or  three. 

Q.  Have  you  reports  from  his  visits  to  different  agencies  ? 

A.  He  is  obliged  to  make  annual  payments  himself,  at  all  these 
places.  The  money  is  sent  to  him  and  he  makes  the  payment  in  person, 
and  certifies  to  it. 

Q.  Why  is  it  that  the  inspectors  are  not  required  to  perform  the  duties 
which  the  law  of  Congress  imposes  on  them,  of  visiting  each  agency 
twice  a  year  ? 

A.  Because  it  is  impossible.  We  have  not  inspectors  enough.  Con 
gress  quite  often  requires  things  which  cannot  be  done. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  done  because  of  the  physical  impossibility  of  per 
forming  the  duty? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  the  requirement  for  this  biennial  inspection  is  now 
repealed. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  office  of  superintendent  is  a  rather  un 
necessary  appendage  to  the  Indian  system  ? 

A.  It  ought  to  be  made  general  or  abolished;  that  is,  there  ought  to  be 
something  covering  the  whole  field  on  a  general  system.  An  inspector, 
as  he  is  now  put  at  my  disposal,  has  an  advantage  over  the  superin 
tendent,  because  I  can  send  him  at  will  to  any  point  to  investigate. 
Previously  1  was  obliged  to  give  him  a  district  and  send  him  through  it 
to  all  the  agencies,  and  then  give  him  another  district. 

Q.  To  what  extent  does  the  Government  furnish  the  Indians  with 
arms,  if  it  does  furnish  any  at  all  ? 

A.  Up  to  the  present  time  I  doubt  if  the  Government  has  furnished 
150  stand  of  arms  altogether.  Possibly  it  would  reach  200  ;  but  I  have 
just  recommended  the  purchase  of  100  guns  or  more  for  certain  friendly 
Indians,  to  use  in  defending  themselves  against  certain  wicked  Indians. 
I  have  been  trying  to  get  them  for  some  time. 

Q.  What  Indians? 

A.  For  the  Shoshones  and  the  Crows,  to  defend  themselves  against 
the  Sioux.  I  desired  to  purchase  guns  for  the  Poncas  also  for  the  same 
purpose. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  it  would  be  a  better  policy  to  disarm  all  the  Indians 
than  to  arm  one  baud  against  another? 

A.  !No,  sir;  they  should  be  allowed  and  aided  to  protect  themselves. 
I  don't  think  the  fact  of  the  Poncas  being  armed  would  operate  to  invite 
hostilities  by  the  other  tribes.  It  would  have  the  contrary  effect. 

Q.  You  mentioned  in  your  examination,  Mr.  Smith,  that  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  had  never  recommended  a  change  of  agent  at 
Eed  Cloud.  Have  they  recommended  a  change  of  agent  at  any  of  the 
Indian  agencies? 


691 

A.  I  think  so ;  they  have  suggested  it,  I  think,  with  the  Poncas  ;  and 
I  think  there  is  a  suggestion  now  as  to  the  change  of  an  agent ;  I  ain 
sure  there  is. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  they  had  no  power  to  make  a  change  them 
selves. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  their  relation  is  such  that  their  suggestion  is  acted 
on  without  question. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  About  how  large  a  band  is  that  band  or  tribe  of  the  Poncas  ? 

A.  About  seven  hundred  and  fifty  or  eight  hundred. 

Q.  They  are  located  in  the  northern  part  of  Nebraska  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  in  a  very  fine  country. 

Q.  Why  should  they  not  be  removed  to  the  Indian  Territory,  away 
from  the  Sioux? 

A.  They  should  be  removed.  I  have  been  working  at  it  for  two  years 
and  a  half,  and  have  their  consent  for  them  to  go  down  with  the  Oinahas, 
who  are  their  cousins,  and  I  need  nothing  but  legislation  to  compensate 
the  Poncas  for  the  country  they  give  up,  and  compensate  the  Omahas,  for 
the  country  they  take.  As  soon  as  those  two  things  can  be  brought 
about,  they  will  go.  I  propose  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior  to  it  again,  and,  if  possible,  procure  congressional  action  this 
winter. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  In  the  letter  of  Mr.  Alvord,  he  states  that,  apart  from  his  official 
report  to  you,  he  placed  you  in  possession  of  some  very  important  intel 
ligence  in  regard  to  the  corruption  and  abuses  in  that  department,  and 
especially  gave  you  such  proof  of  the  conduct  of  the  agent,  that  it  ought 
to  have  insured  his  conviction  if  there  had  been  a  vigilant  officer  to 
look  into  it.  What  have  you  to  say  about  that  ? 

A.  I  should  say  that  was  his  opinion,  and  also  that  I  had  the  same 
impression  that  he  did,  that  there  was  wrong  there,  and  it  ought  to 
be  found  out  and  punished.  I  took  the  very  measures  he  suggested, 
namely,  to  put  it  in  the  hands  of  Inspector  Daniels,  who  was  familiar 
with  the  whole  thing,  and  I  procured  for  Daniels  all  the  information  that 
he  and  Kemble  had  obtained,  and  sent  Daniels  to  Kemble  for  other 
items. 

Q.  Was  there  any  effort  made  to  instruct  the  district  attorney  or 
any  officer  of  the  Government  to  institute  criminal  prosecution  against 
the  agent? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  could  not  be  on  that  report  of  Inspector  Daniels. 

Q.  There  is  what  he  states,  that,  apart  from  his  report,  he  gave 
you  such  facts  as  ought  to  have  required  you  to  institute  criminal  pro 
ceedings  against  him. 

Q.  That  is  his  opinion.  I  would  have  instituted  criminal  proceed 
ings  if  I  had  had  any  facts.  He  gave  me  only  opinions  and  reports, 
without  any  proofs,  because  he  said  he  could  not  get  them.  That  was 
the  object  in  sending  Daniels,  to  find  the  proofs  of  fraud  which  Kemble 
and  Alvord  thought,  and  I  thought,  they  had  found.  With  these  proofs 
I  should  have  proceeded  to  prosecute  the  wrongdoers.  In  conversation 
subsequently  he  impressed  me  with  the  feeling  that  there  was  wrong 
there  that  ought  to  be  righted,  and  I  set  about  it,  but  it  came  to  noth 
ing.  I  was  as  much  disappointed  as  he  was.  I  have  talked  with  him 
about  it  since,  and  expressed  my  disappointment.  I  have  no  data  what 
ever  from  Inspector  Alvord  that  are  not  in  that  report.  I  have  no  recol 
lection  of  any  being  given  me  that  are  not  there.  Whatever  he  said  to 


692 

me,  if  he  did  furnish  any  additional  data,  they  were  sent  by  him  or  Mr. 
Keinble,  at  my  request,  directly  to  Inspector  Daniels.  My  injunction  to 
Inspector  Kemble  and  to  Alvord  was  to  give  all  the  facts,  put  them  in 
Daniels's  hands,  and  help  push  the  investigation.  Those  men  were  hearty 
about  it.  I  think  Mr.  Kemble  was  more  hearty  in  the  prosecution  than 
Mr.  Alvord.  He  was  going  out  there  again,  and  would  be  on  the  ground 
to  assist  Dr.  Daniels  in  the  investigation.  That  matter,  I  ought  to  say, 
in  justice  to  myself,  was  the  first  involving  anything  out  of  the  ordinary 
routine  that  I  struck  on  coming  to  the  Indian  Office.  Everything  was 
new  to  me,  and  my  recollection  of  them  and  conversations  respecting 
them  may  not  be  exact.  I  only  give  you  the  results  of  my  best 
recollections  and  impressions.  I  know  how  I  felt,  and  I  know  what  I 
tried  to  do;  and  I  know  how  disappointed  I  was  when  I  saw  that  I  bad 
not  done  anything. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  agent  Mr.  Alvord  alluded  to  in  the  statement  just  read  by 
Mr.  Faulkner  was  Agent  Risley,  was  it  not  I 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  agent  at  that  time  at  Red  Cloud  agency  was  Dr.  Daniels  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  Daniels  had  been  appointed  inspector,  and  was  waiting 
for  his  successor  to  come  to  relieve  him  as  agent. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  In  this  letter,  Mr.  Alvord  speaks  of  Graves's  transportation  con 
tract  as  a  fraud,  which  he  developed  fully  before  you,  and  caused  the 
suspension  of  the  payment  of  money  due  upon  that  contract.  Has  that 
money  been  paid  since  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  it  was  suspended,  and  has  not  been  paid,  on  account  of 
the  undoubted  fraud  in  it. 

Q.  And  is  still  unpaid  by  the  Government? 

A.  Entirely  so ;  it  is  rejected  entirely  as  a  contract.     We  are  only 
trying  to  find  the  poor  fellows  who  did  the  work,  in  order  to  pay  them 
individually  for  their  work.     We  propose  to  pay  the  persons  who  actu 
ally  did  the  work,  and  ignore  the  contract  entirely. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  That  contract  was  made  with  Graves  by  whom  '•? 

A.  By  Risley.     It  was  never  approved  by  the  Department. 
By  Mr.  HOWE: 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  each  of  the  agencies  in  the 
United  States  have  been  assigned  to  some  religious  denomination  for 
religous  care  and  instruction  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  with  possibly  three  exceptions.  I  explained  afterward 
what  that  assignment  was — what  it  amounted  to ;  it  was  not  a  formal 
assignment. 

Q.  What  is  it  ? 

A.  The  relation  is  denned  by  the  privilege  which  the  President  gives 
to  them  to  nominate  the  agents.  They  make  the  nomination  on  the  un 
derstanding  that  they  are  interested  in  the  welfare  of  the  Indians,  and 
are  engaged,  or  will  engage,  more  or  less  in  the  moral  and  religious  ele 
vation  of  the  Indians  belonging  to  the  agencies  thus  assigned. 

Q.  Then  the  denomination  secures  the  privilege  of  selecting  the  agent 
upon  the  understanding,  expressed  or  implied,  that  the  denomination 
will  engage  in  civilizing  and  elevating  that  tribe.  Is  that  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  assignment,  then,  does  not  amount  to  the  exclusion  of  any 
other  denomination  from  engaging  in  the  same  work? 


693 

A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all;  but  it  gives  this  denomination  the  inside. 
They  have  the  agent,  and  therefore  they  naturally  have  the  employes, 
so  they  are  in  possession. 

Q.  As  matter  of  fact,  is  it  known  to  the  Indian  Office  the  extent  to 
which  the  different  religious  denominations  contribute  to  civilize  such 
tribes  as  they  select  the  agents  for  ? 

A.  The  amount  is  known  in  dollars  and  cents,  and  also  the  number  of 
missionaries  and  teachers  that  they  send. 

Q.  The  Indian  Office  knows,  then,  the  amount  of  money  contributed 
by  the  Episcopal  Church  for  the  civilization  of  the  Sioux  Nation! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  amount  that  is? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  positively ;  my  impression  is,  that  it  varies  from 
$20,000  to  $40,000  a  year. 

Q.  How  do  you  obtain  this  information  ? 

A.  I  get  the  reports  from  the  agents,  and  the  reports  from  the  society, 
also  from  the  reports  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  It  is  pos 
sible  that  amount  is  not  for  the  Sioux  Nation  alone,  but  embraces  all 
the  agencies  they  have.  Bishop  Whipple,  of  Minnesota,  has  spent  quite 
large  amounts  at  White  Earth. 

Q.  Is  it  communicated  to  the  Office  officially,  or  do  you  get  it  from 
their  own  publications  1 

A.  I  get  it  from  their  own  publications,  and  also  from  those  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  I  also  ask,  as  one  of  my  questions 
to  be  answered  in  the  annual  reports  of  the  agents,  "How  much 
money  have  benevolent  societies  expended  for  the  elevation  and  com 
fort  of  the  Indians  P  But  the  answers  to  this  question  are  not  always 
reliable,  because  the  agents  have  not  always  all  the  information. 

Q.  Do  you  embody  this  information  in  your  annual  report  ? 

A.  I  embody  all  I  get  from  the  agents. 

Q.  What  they  tell  you,  you  put  in  your  report. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  your  last  report  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  4 

Q.  Have  you  any  one  of  your  reports  here  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  but  I  can  get  the  information  from  my  report  and  the 
report  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

Q.  Yon  say  that  the  Sioux  refuse  to  move  to  the  Missouri  Biver  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  a  long  report  from  the  commission  which  was 
sent  out  to  locate  Spotted  Tail  a  year  ago;  and  it  found  the  utmost  diffi 
culty  to  persuade  them  to  remove  at  all ;  and  in  fact,  when  it  did  move, 
it  went  ten  miles  farther  south  and  west,  instead  of  north  and  east,  as 
we  tried  to  have  it. 

Q.  It  is  known  to  the  Office  that  those  two  agencies  are  outside  of 
the  reservation  altogether,  is  it  not  ? 

A.  Outside  of  the  permanent  reservation;  they  are  inside  of  the  re 
served  Indian  country. 

Q.  They  are  on  territory  which  they  have  expressly  stipulated  not  to 
occupy  permanently,  are  they  not  9 

Q.  No,  sir;  they  are  not  in  the  Territory  which  the  Government  ex 
pressly  stipulated  they  might  occupy  permanently,  but  they  are  within, 
the  territory  which  they  expressly  stipulated  should  not  be  occupied 
by  white  people,  and  which  stipulation  the  Government  agreed  to. 

Q.  The  second  article  of  the  Treaty  of  1868  reads  as  follows  : 

ARTICLE  II. 

The  United  States  agrees  that  the  following  district  of  country, to  wit,  viz:  commenc 
ing  on  the  east  bank  of  the  Missouri  River  where  the  forty-sixth  parallel  of  north  latitude 


694 

crosses  the  same  ;  thence  along  low- water  mark  down  said  east  bank  to  a  point  opposite 
where  the  northern  line  of  the  State  of  Nebraska  strikes  the  river;  thence  west  across  said 
river,  and  along  the  northern  line  of  Nebraska  to  the  one  hundred  and  fourth  degree  of  lon 
gitude  west  from  Greenwich  ;  thence  north  on  said  meridian  to  a  point  where  the  forty-sixth 
parallel  of  north  latitude  intercepts  the  same;  thence  due  east  along  said  parallel  to  the  place 
of  beginning ;  and,  in  addition  thereto,  all  existing  reservations  on  the  east  bank  of  said 
river  shall  be,  and  the  same  is,  set  apart  for  the  absolute  and  undisturbed  use  and  occupation 
of  the  Indians  herein  named,  and  for  such  other  friendly  tribes  or  individual  Indians  as  from 
time  to  time  they  may  be  willing,  with  the  consent  of  the  United  States,  to  admit  amongst 
them  ;  and  the  United  States  now  solemnly  agrees  that  no  persons,  except  those  herein  des 
ignated  and  authorized  so  to  do,  and  except  such  officers,  agents,  and  employes  of  the  Gov 
ernment  as  may  be  authorized  to  enter  upon  Indian  reservations  in  discharge  of  duties  en 
joined  by  law,  shall  ever  be  permitted  to  pass  over,  settle  upon,  or  reside  in  the  territory 
described  in  this  article,  or  in  such  territory  as  may  be  added  to  this  reservation  for  the  use 
of  said  Indians  ;  and  henceforth  they  will  and  do  hereby  relinquish  all  claims  or  right  in 
and  to  any  portion  of  the  United  States  or  Territories;  except  such  as  is  embraced  within  the 
limits  aforesaid,  and  except  as  hereinafter  provided. 

Are  these  agencies  not  on  territory  which  the  Indians  expressly  stip 
ulated  that  they  should  not  occupy  permanently  ? 

A.  I  should  say  No,  to  that.  I  should  say  that  they  are  not  in  the 
Territory  where  they  agreed  to  go,  but  they  did  not  stipulate  not  to  stay 
there.  They  have  not  stipulated  not  to  live  in  Nebraska ;  they  have 
stipulated  to  live  in  Dakota,  and  they  are  not  in  Dakota. 

Q.  What  was  the  authority  which  located  those  agencies  at  Red 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail?  I  don't  know  of  any  other  way  of  designat 
ing  the  locality. 

A.  I  think  when  Red  Cloud  was  located  it  was  supposed  to  be  in 
Dakota. 

Q.  The  question  was.  What  was  the  authority  which  located  those 
agencies  at  those  places? 

A.  The  action  was  taken  under  the  direction  of  the  Interior  Depart 
ment. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  Probably  to  include  his  knowledge  and  consent,  though  I  have  no 
knowledge  of  the  facts  in  this  case ;  any  such  question  as  that  would 
naturally  come  before  him. 

Q.  You  can  ascertain  definitely,  can  you  not  ? 

A.  I  think  so ;  though,  as  I  said,  when  the  direction1  was  given  to 
locate  Red  Cloud  agency,  it  was  supposed  to  be  in  Dakota,  but  was 
afterward  found  to  be  in  Nebraska. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  The  line  had  not  been  run  out  yet,  then,  had  it  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Who  constituted  that  commission  which  went  out  last  year  to  locate 
Spotted  Tail  agency  ? 

A.  Bishop  Hare,  Mr.  Ilinman,  Dr.  C.  C.  Cox,  and  C.  B.  Lines. 

Q.  Now,  in  this  connection,  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fif 
teenth  article  of  the  Treaty  of  18G8  : 

ARTICLE  XV. 

The  Indians  herein  named  agree  that,  when  the  agency-house  and  other  buildings  shall 
be  constructed  on  the  reservation  named,  they  will  regard  said  reservation  their  permanent 
home,  and  they  will  make  no  permanent  settlement  elsewhere  ;  but  they  shall  have  the 
right,  subject  to  the  conditions  and  modifications  of  this  treaty,  to  hunt,  as  stipulated  in  ar 
ticle  XI  hereof. 

I  submit  whether  that  does  not  amount  to  a  stipulation  on  the  part 
of  the  Indians  f 

A.  It  has  never  been  fulfilled  on  the  part  of  the  Government.  It  has 
not  established  their  agency  nor  erected  buildings. 


695 

Q.  And  therefore  this  last  stipulation  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  has 
not  taken  effect. 

A.  I  should  think,  so  far  as  that  is  concerned 

Q.  Will  you  state  why  the  Government  has  not  constructed  build 
ings? 

A.  They  supposed  they  did,  in  the  construction  of  Red  Cloud  agency. 

Q.  Was  that  the  place  mentioned  in  the  treaty  for  the  construction  of 
the  agency. 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  has  riot  the  Government  done  that  which  you  now  say  is  a 
condition  precedent  to  excluding  the  Indians  from  Nebraska? 

A.  I  am  not  able  to  say  officially,  because  this  whole  matter  occurred 
before  I  came  into  acquaintance  with  Indian  affairs  ;  but  from  the  record 
and  history  of  it,  1  should  say  the  agency  was  not  established  on  the 
Missouri  River,  because  it  was  deemed  best  to  get  the  Indians  moved 
from  the  Missouri  over  toward  Cheyenne.  Spotted  Tail  and  his  com 
pany  moved  over  there  on  the  representation  that  they  would  be  de 
moralized  on  the  river,  and  that  it  would  be  desirable  that  they  should 
get-away  where  no  white  men  could  come.  The  main  body  of  the  In 
dians  that  were  around  Laramie — Red  Cloud's  followers — have  never  been 
willing  to  move  a  mile  in  that  direction.  They  moved  but  a  short  dis 
tance  after  great  persuasion  and  threatening  of  force.  It  has  not  been  an 
easy  matter  to  handle  such  an  intractable  set  of  men,  whom  you  cannot 
compel  to  do  what  they  have  agreed  to  do. 

Q.  Your  understanding  is  that  the  stipulation  of  the  treaty  has  not 
been  enforced  because  the  United  States  has  not  been  able  to  do  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ^ did  not  wish  to  make  an  issue  and  see  whether  they 
were  able  or  not. 

Q.  The  discretion  which  was  exercised  upon  this  point  was  the  dis 
cretion  of  what  Department  of  the  Government? 

A.  It  must  have  been  the  Interior. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  it  was  the  discretion  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
or  the  head  of  the  Indian  Bureau  ? 

A.  I  could  not  say  from  knowledge,  but  from  my  acquaintance  with 
official  matters  I  should  say  it  must  have  been  the  Secretary. 

Q.  You  judge  that,  but  don't  know  it  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  it. 

Q.  When  you  became  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  did  you  or  did 
you  not  ascertain  the  fact  that  the  agency-buildings  had  not  been  erected 
on  the  Missouri  in  accordance  with  the  stipulations  of  this  treaty  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  don't  know  that  1  had  any  reference  to  that  stipulation, 
as  to  where  they  should  have  been  erected.  I  found  where  they  were — 
where  the  Indians  were — and  where,  so  far  as  I  could  see,  they  would 
have  to  remain  for  the  present.  I  did  not  inquire  further. 

Q.  You  did  not  look  to  see  what  the  obligations'of  the  Government 
were  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  how  far  they  had  or  had  not  been  observed  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  not  in  that  respect. 

Q.  In  some  controversy  you  spoke  of,  in  reply  to  a  question  put  by  the 
chairman,  between  yourself  and  Spotted  Tail,  you  remarked  that  Spotted 
Tail  beat  you.  What  was  that  controversy  ?  What  was  the  precise 
occasion  on  which  Spotted  Tail  beat  you  ?  What  was  the  order  that 
you  issued  and  which  he  countermanded  ? 

A.  My  order  was  to  move  over  toward  the  Missouri  River ;  I  think 
about  half  way  to  the  river. 

Q.  When? 


696 

A.  In  the  summer  of  1873 — my  first  summer  in  office — and  the  agent 
started  to  do  it,  and  Spotted  Tail  prevented  it.  There  were  no  troops 
nearer  than  Fort  Laramie,  and  it  was  at  that  time  insisted  that  no  troops 
should  enter  the  Sioux  country,  as  the  treaty  expressly  stipulates. 

Q.  Where  was  Spotted  Tail  at  that  time  ? 

A.  He  was  at  his  agency. 

Q.  At  his  present  agency  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  he  has  been  moved  since  that. 

Q.  Where  was  he  at  that  time  ? 

A.  He  was  on  the  White  Clay  Eiver.  I  think  he  is  on  it  now,  only 
farther  up  the  river.  He  was  at  the  old  agency,  where  liisley  left  him. 
I  was  never  there,  and  can't  give  the  exact  location. 

Q.  Why  did  you  direct  his  removal  toward  the  Missouri,  and  not  to 
the  Missouri  9 

A.  Because  of  the  country  that  was  reported  to  me  to  be  suitable  for 
grazing  and  for  cultivation,  which  had  been  found  there. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  you  had  been  informed  the  locality  to  which  you  di 
rected  his  removal  was  a  suitable  one  "? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  a  very  desirable  one  in  comparison  to  the  one  he  was  at 
at  the  time. 

Q.  Were  you  also  informed  at  the  same  time  that  the  place  he  was  at 
was  unsuitable'? 

A.  Oh,  yes  sir;  I  had  positive  evidence  on  that  subject.  It  was  an 
alkaline,  barren  country. 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  receive  that  information  ? 

A.  From  Agent  Kisley  add  Agent  Howard. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  precise  locality  to  which  you  directed  their 
removal  ? 

A.  ]STo,  sir;  I  could  not  describe  it  only  by  the  general  direction, 
which  I  should  say  was  east  by  north  from  where  he  was. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  distance  you  would  have  had  to  traverse  in 
making  the  removal  1 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  an  estimate  submitted  to  you  of  the  cost  of  making  the 
removal  ? 

A.  I  think  so.  I  talked  with  Howard,  the  agent,  about  the  means  at 
his  disposal — the  teams  around  him  for  doing  it.  I  did  not  suppose  it 
would  be  a  very  heavy  cost.  At  any  rate,  my  computation  wras  that  I 
was  going  to  save  that  year  in  transportation  more  than  enough  to 
cover  the  cost  of  removal ;  that,  I  remember,  was  the  agent's  estimate. 

Q.  What  time  in  the  year  was  this  ? 

A.  I  think  this  was  in  September. 

Q.  Had  you  made  your  contracts  for  transportation  that  year  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  any  evidence  as  to  what  you  could  get  transportation  for 
to  the  new  agency  ? 

A.  The  proposed  location  was  on  the  route  and  shortened  the  dis 
tance  right  on  the  same  road,  as  I  understand  it.  I  may  be  mistaken 
about  that,  but  it  is  in  the  general  direction  of  the  traveled  road  to  the 
Missouri  Eiver. 

Q.  Your  contract  for  transportation  was  from  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  it  was  the  other  way,  from  the  Missouri  Kiver  that  year. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether,  by  the  contract  that  year,  you  paid  a 
given  sum  per  hundred  miles  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  transported  by  the  mile. 

Q.  You  say  Spotted  Tail  refused  to  comply  with  your  direction? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


697 

Q.  And  you  surrendered  the  direction  to  withdraw  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  question  with  him  at  that  time  that  he  had 
stipulated  to  go  half  way  to  the  Missouri  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  wasn't  aware  of  it  at  that  time,  and  if  I  had  been  my 
acquaintance  with  the  Indian  would  not  give  me  the  slightest  reason  to 
suppose  such  argument  would  have  any  weight  with  him  against  his 
own  wishes  when  he  had  the  power  in  his  own  hands. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  The  provision  of  the  Treaty  of  1868  to  which  I  called  your  atten 
tion  yesterday  is  contained  in  the  tenth  article,  and  is  this : 

And  the  President  shall  annually  detail  an  officer  of  the  Army  to  be  present  and  attest  the 
delivery  of  all  the  goods  herein  named  to  the  Indians,  and  he  shall  inspect  and  report  on  the 
quantity  and  quality  of  the  goods,  and  the  manner  of  their  delivery. 

A.  I  stated  yesterday  that  I  was  not  aware  of  that  provision  in  the 
treaty. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  the  President  has  never  made  any  such  ap 
pointments? 
A.  I  have  no  knowledge  of  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  saw  recently  a  statement  to  the  effect  that  the  President  had 
made  an  order,  or  that  there  had  been  detailed  a  military  man  as 
inspector. 

A.  That  was  at  my  request. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q,  I  understood  you  to  say  that,  in  your  opinion,  Spotted  Tail's  band 
might  profitably  be  removed  to  the  Missouri  Elver  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  that  Eed  Cloud's  baud  could  not  be  removed  unless  the  Pon- 
cas  were  removed  from  their  present  reservation  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  of  any  suitable  location  for  them,  except  that  now 
occupied  by  the  Poncas. 

Q.  What  is  the  extent  of  their  reservation,  in  miles,  from  north  to 
south  ? 

A.  It  is  about  two  hundred  miles  square. 

Q.  What  is  the  whole  number  of  Sioux  Indians  with  whom  you  are 
now  dealing  under  the  Treaty  of  18C8  ? 

A.  About  40,000. 

Q.  How  is  that  number  ascertained,  as  reported  to  you  ? 

A.  By  the  agents,  on  count  or  on  estimate,  or  both ;  that  is,  some 
times  a  partial  count  and  an  estimate  for  the  remainder. 

Q.  Have  you  an  official  statement  of  the  different  bauds  of  the  Sioux 
Indians,  and  of  the  numbers  belonging  to  each  band  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  furnish  us  with  that  statement  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q-  Will  you  be  good  enough  to  furnish  us  with  that  statement  at 
your  earliest  convenience  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  specify  the  numbers  in  each  band,  and  ascertain  by  count, 
and  the  numbers  which  are  included  in  estimates u? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

[Witness  produced  the  following  statement.] 


698 


Table  of  statistics  relating  to  population,  education,  <$-c.,  by  tribes  and  their  respective  agen 
cies,  of  Sioux  Indians  belonging  to  the  permanent  reservations  in  Nebraska  and  Dakota. 


Name  of  agency  and  tribe. 

Population. 

Number  of  school-build 
ings. 

Number  of  schools. 

Number  of  teachers. 

Number  of  scholars. 

Number  of  Indians  who 
can  read. 

Number  of  Indians  who 
have  learned  to  read 
during  the  year. 

Number  of  church-mem 
bers. 

Number  of  Indians  who 
wear  citizens'  dress. 

<B 

1 

Female. 

o 

NEBRASKA. 

Santce  Sioux  agency. 
Santee  Sioux  

360 

1,007 
798 
1,257 
325 

440 

1,259 
980 
1,560 
405 

800 

[-7,586 

312 

730 

12  648 

5 

4 

1 
1 

6 

4 

1 
1 

6 

11 

1 
1 

100 

138 

49 
99 

100 
75 

if 

20 
3 

400 

too 

90 
312 

+ 

13 

DAKOTA. 

Cheyenne  River  agency. 
Two  Kettle  Sioux 

Sans  Arc  Sioux  

Blackfeet  Sioux 

* 
* 

Flandreau  special  agency. 
Santee  Sioux 

Ponca  agency. 
Poncas 

Red  Cloud  agency. 
Ogallalla  Sioux  

1 

Minneconjoux  Sioux  

Sans  Arc  Sioux  

5 

1,202 
1,  092 

7  3-^2 

[-9,610 

|3,000 

2,500 
5,000 

1 
3 

-    6 

3 

7 

3 

10 

47 
706 

33 
* 

7 

16 

Northern  Cheyennes 

Northern  Arrapahoes  

Standing  Rock  agency. 

Upper  Yanktonai  Sioux  
Lower  Yanktonai  Sioux  

I 

Blackfeet  Sioux 

J 

390 
110 
4,  152 

80 

640 
960 

392 
129 

4,269 

88 

560 
840 

Spotted  Tail  agency. 
Minneconjoux  Sioux  

Sans  Arc  Sioux 

Brule  Sioux  

Two  Kettle  Sioux 

Crow  Creek  agency. 

Lower  Yanktonai  Sioux  
Lower  lirule  Sioux 

Yankton  agency. 
Yankton  Sioux  

Scattered  Sioux  not  under 
an  agent  

10,  079 

10,  922 

t36,  508 

21 

22 

32 

1,139 

208 

30 

416 

1215 

*  Report  not  yet  received. 

t  With  the  exception  of  the  scattered  Sioux,  estimated  5,000,  and  the  bands  at  Standing  Rock,  esti 
mated  7,322,  the  population  is  by  actual  count,  and  the  estimate  at  Standing  Hock  is  thought  to  be  quite 
accurate,  having  been  made  on  the  number  of  lodges. 

NOTK.— The  above  table  is  made  up  from  latest  advices  in  the  Indian  Office.  The  figures  probably 
differ  slightly,  but  not  materially,  from  those  which  will  bo  given  by  the  reports  of  the  respective 
agents  for  the  year  ending  September  30,  1875. 


699 

Q.  Suppose  there  are  about  forty  thousand  men,  women,  and  children 
belonging  to  the  nation,  and  two  hundred  sections  of  laud  between  the 
north  and  south  lines  of  their  reservation,  how  many  sections  deep  on 
the  river  would  you  require  to  give  to  each  family  of  five  persons  a 
quarter-section  of  land  ? 

A.  I  could  compute  it  if  I  knew  the  length  of  the  river-front. 

Q.  Call  it  perpendicular  for  the  purpose  of  calculation.  It  is  not  any 
less  than  perpendicular,  at  all  events. 

A.  There  would  be  eight  thousand  families,  which  would  take  two 
thousand  sections,  and  would  require  ten  sections  deep  on  the  river. 

Q.  Then  a  strip  ten  miles  in  depth,  if  the  river  were  perpendicular, 
would  give  you  a  quarter  of  a  section  of  land  to  every  five  individuals 
of  the  tribe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  long  as  Indians  depend  upon  the  Government  rations  for  sup 
port  they  might  as  well  be  all  located  on  a  single  section  as  on  any 
greater  number  of  sections,  might  they  not  ? 

Q.  No,  sir ;  I  should  think  not.  Their  support  would  cost  a  great 
deal  more  than  it  does  now  if  they  were  depending  on  Government  ra 
tions  entirely  ;  but  that  is  not  true  yet.  So  far  as  the  mere  feeding  them 
is  concerned  they  might  as  well  be  on  a  single  section. 

Q.  But  they  do  not  depend  now  entirely  upon  rations  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  other  resources  have  they  for  support  ? 

A.  Buffalo,  antelope,  deer,  rabbits,  ducks,  and  other  small  game  of 
one  sort  and  another. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  estimating  the  amount  of  support  derived 
from  the  chase  by  the  Indians  you  supply  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  only  by  deduction.  I  know  how  much  I  give  them,  then 
I  can  estimate  how  nearly  that  will  come  to  their  actual  subsistence. 

Q.  You  give  them  a  pound  of  beef  and  a  pound  of  flour  per  day,  do 
you  ? 

A.  Not  all  of  them.  I  issue  to  those  who  are  present.  Indians  who 
are  on  the  ground  and  call  for  rations  get  them.  If  a  baud  is  away  at 
issue-time  it  does  not  draw,  and  that  is  quite  often  the  case. 

Q.  You  get  provisions  for  that  amount,  do  you  not  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  get  the  largest  appropriation  I  can  on  my  part,  and  the 
smallest  Congress  can  give  me  on  their  part ;  and  they  do  not  determine 
what  they  will  give  me  by  what  I  was  obliged  to  use  during  the  year 
previous.  They  keep  me  depending  on  the  deficiency  appropriation  of 
the  following  year.  I  think  that  has  been  true  with  the  Sioux  people 
every  year  since  the  Treaty.  There  may  have  been  one  year  as  an  ex 
ception. 

Q.  Does  not  the  Treaty  of  1868  require  us  to  supply  a  pound  of  beef 
and  a  pound  of  flour  to  each  Indian  over  four  years  of  age  1 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  it  has  expired  now  for  two  yoars. 

Q.  Was  the  money  appropriated  to  furnish  that  amount  of  beef  and 
flour  up  to  the  expiration  of  the  four  years  ? 

A.  1  don't  know,  sir  ;  that  was  before  my  time.  I  can  easily  find  how 
much  was  appropriated  for  those  years.  I  don't  suppose  it  was. 

Q.  Has  that  money  been  appropriated  since  the  expiration  of  the 
four  years  ? 

A.  Not  to  that  extent. 

Q.  For  what  number  of  Indians  did  you  ask  an  appropriation  with 
which  to  purchase  beef  and  flour,  for  the  current  year  J? 

A.  I  think,  35,000.  I  am  not  sure  that  in  making  the  estimate  I  speci- 


700 

fied  the  number  of  Sioux.  I  estimated  on  the  experience  of  previous 
years,  but  not  on  the  numbers  of  Indians. 

Q.  Suppose  the  whole  tribe  numbers  40,000,  what  percentage  of  them 
do  you  estimate  would  be  more  than  four  years  of  age  ? 

A.  That  would  be  the  merest  guess  on  my  part.  I  should  say  the 
proportion  would  not  vary  among  them  from  that  of  an  ordinary  white 
population. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  what  the  rule  is  in  other  populations  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  now,  Mr.  Commissioner,  suppose  the  population  to  number 
40,000,  and  all  to  be  four  years  of  age  and  upward,  and  you  undertake 
to  furnish  them  each  with  a  pound  of  beef  and  a  pound  of  flour  per  day, 
what  sum  of  money  would  be  required  to  do  it  at  your  present  contract 
prices  ? 

A.  My  present  computation  is  that  my  beef  would  cost  me  about 
$2,000  a  day,  and  my  flour  about  the  same.  About  $4,000  a  day  for 
beef  and  flour,  without  allowing  anything  for  the  services  of  issuing 
and  carrying. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  That  would  be  $1,460,000  a  year.  . 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  about  a  million  and  a  half  a  year. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  What  is  the  appropriation  for  that  purpose  the  current  year  '\ 

A.  About  $1,100,000.  A  portion  of  it  must  be  expended  for  coffee  and 
sugar.  I  have  the  transportation  of  coffee  and  sugar  to  provide  for. 

Q.  Why  have  3*011  got  it  to  provide  for  ? 

A.  The  transportation  appropriation  is  just  half  enough — not  quite 
half  enough. 

Q.  The  question  I  put  to  you  is,  why  have  you  got  to  provide  out  of 
this  fund  for  sugar  and  tobacco  ? 

A.  Because  I  haven't  any  other  fund. 

Q.  Why  do  you  furnish  them  sugar  and  tobacco  ? 

A.  To  keep  them  good-natured. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  you  cut  short  their  beef  and  their  flour,  which  the 
Treaty  required  to  be  furnished,  and  give  them  sugar  and  tobacco,  which 
the  Treaty  does  not  require  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  the  Treaty  does  not  require  any  now. 

Q.  Which  the  treaty  required  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  It  has  not  been  in  operation  since  I  have  been  acting. 
We  are  not  governed  by  the  Treaty  at  all  now  in  these  supplies.  If  you 
mean  the  Indian  Office  when  you  ask  what  I  have  done,  I  will  keep  up 
the  personation,  but  I  may  not  always  be  able  to  give  a  reason  for  what 
the  Indian  Office  has  done  in  the  past. 

Q.  Haven't  you  any  other  fund  out  of  which  you  do  in  fact  purchase 
tobacco  and  sugar  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  another  fund  that  can  be  used  for  that,  if  it  is  not 
required  for  anything  else. 

Q.  What  is  that? 

A.  What  is  called  the  Sioux  Beneficial  Fund. 

Q.  How  much  is  that? 

A.  I  think  I  had  $200,000  of  that  last  year.  I  am  not  sure  whether 
it  was  two  or  one. 

Q.  Is  $1,100,000  the  whole  appropriation  for  feeding? 

A.  I  think  so,  except  when  I  get  a  deficiency  appropriation. 

Q.  You  have  not  this  year  ? 


701 

A.  Not  for  tbis  year,  but  I  had  for  last  year. 

Q.  What  was  the  appropriation  last  year  ? 

A.  I  think  the  same. 

Q.  What  was  the  deficiency  ? 

A.  One  hundred  and  twenty-five  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Haven't  you  this  year  an  appropriation  for  transportation ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  about  half  enough 

Q.  An  appropriation  for  transportation ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  about  half  enough ;  I  have  an  appropriation  for  that 

Q.  Excuse  me  ;  an  appropriation  for  transportation  which  should  be 
added  to  the  appropriation  for  purchases  since  you  have  included  the 
cost  of  transportation  '\ 

A.  No,  sir  ;  it  should  not  all  of  it  be  included  in  that  estimate,  because 
I  have  my  annuity-goods  to  transport  from  New  York. 

Q.  Well,  a  part  of  it  should  be  added. 

A.  I  am  not  sure  whether  it  is  not  all  exhausted  in  the  other  appro 
priation  ;  but  I  think  not.  I  think  it  might  be  taken  out  of  the  cost  of 
the  flour. 

Q.  Or  added  to  the  appropriation  either  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  WThat  is  your  appropriation  for  transportation  ? 

A.  I  think  it  is  $95,000. 

Q.  Seventy-five  thousand  dollars. 

A.  I  thought  it  was  $95,000. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  what  the  beef  and  flour  ration  of  a  United  States 
soldier  is  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  it  is  more  than  an  Indian's  ration. 

Mr.  HOWE,  (to  the  chairman.)  Governor,  you  know. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  got  it  in  our  testimony.  I  have  forgotten 
now  just  what  it  is. 

Mr.  ATHERTON.  I  think  it  is  a  pound  and  a  quarter  of  beef  and  the 
same  of  flour  ;  but  I  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  HOWE.  It  is  a  pound  and  a  quarter  of  one  or  the  other,  and  per 
haps  both. 

WITNESS.  Then  the  soldier  has  beans  and  other  articles. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Well,  I  see  by  the  Appropriation  Bill,  Mr.  Commissioner,  that  the 
appropriation  was  made  for  30,000  instead  of  for  40,000  Indians,  for  this 
current  year? 

A.  As  I  stated,  I  did  not  lay  any  stress  on  the  number,  whatsoever, 
but  on  past  experience  of  cost,  because  I  was  not  going  by  the  Treaty, 
but  by  necessity. 

Q.  Would  not  their  necessities  depend  entirely  on  their  numbers  ? 

A.  I  judge  of  the  necessities  this  year  on  what  it  proved  to  be  last 
year,  and  then  I  regarded  it  as  necessary  that  coffee,  sugar,  and  bacon 
should  come  in ;  they  would  very  largely  increase  the  amount ;  then 
there  is  expense  for  services  of  employes  and  others,  so  that  you  can 
hardly  figure  upon  the  basis  of  a  pound  of  meat  and  a  pound  of  flour 
for  each  individual. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  These  two  articles  would  cost  more  than  you  have 
money  for. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  But  if  two  pounds  of  beef  aud  two  pounds  of  flour  were  squandered 
on  each  individual  per  day  last  year,  you  would  not  infer  from  that  that 
two  pounds  of  each  were  necessary  this  year  ? 


702 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  this  number,  30,000,  the  number  given  by  you  to  the  Committee 
on  Appropriations  ? 

A.  1  presume  it  went  into  my  estimates.  It  is  the  stereotyped  form  of 
estimate,  that  has  been  kept  up  for  a  long  time,  never  varying  except, 
as  to  the  amount  of  figures,  and  I  presume  that  is  the  form  that  I  gave. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Commissioner,  in  submitting  your  estimates  to  Congress, 
would  you  adopt  a  stereotyped  number  of  Indians,  or  would  you  refer 
to  your  own  census  of  the  Indians? 

A.  I  have  to  say,  respecting  that  estimate  of  last  year,  it  was  made 
up  during  my  absence,  and  went  to  the  Secretary  without  my  revision. 
Quite  a  number  of  things  in  it  ought  not  to  have  been  in  the  form  they 
were,  although  there  was  not  anything  that  brought  loss  upon  the  Gov 
ernment,  but  the  form  of  the  estimate  is  not,  in  quite  a  number  of  cases, 
a  proper  one.  I  have  been  over  my  estimate  this  year  with  reference  to 
those  particulars,  quite  carefully. 

Q.  Have  you  estimated  the  number  of  Indians  this  year  larger  than 
30,000? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  I  put  it  in  40,000. 

Q.  Were  you  not  in  the  Plouse  of  Kepresentatives  and  the  Senate 
pending  the  passage  of  this  bill  ? 

A.  I  was  in  the  Senate. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  suggestion  that  the  number  was  too  low  ? 

A.  No,  sir  5  because  the  number,  in  my  opinion,  was  not  of  particular 
consequence.  I  did  not  estimate  upon  the  number;  I  [could  have  ex 
pressed  my  judgment  fully  as  well  without  saying  anything  about 
the  number.  I  was  asking  for  a  certain  amount  of  money  because  I 
thought  I  needed  it ;  not  because  of  the  numbers,  but  because,!  knew 
what  had  been  done  with  the  money  previously.  My  annual  report  to 
the  Secretary  shows  between  34,000  and  40,000,  as  my  estimate  of  the 
number. 

Q.  Well,  on  the  whole,  Mr.  Commissioner,  I  understand  you  to  be  of 
the  opinion  that  this  large  domain  now  included  within  the  Sioux  res 
ervation  is  essential  to  that  people  to  enable  them  to  eke  out  a  sub 
sistence  by  the  chase  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  would  not  say  that.  I  think  there  is  a  very  large  por 
tion  of  it  that  is  too  poor  even  to  furnish  anything  for  the  chase,  and 
they  could  spare  that  very  well. 

Q.  You  believe  that  all  the  valuable  portion  of  it  is  essential  to  them? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  would  not  say  that,  either.  I  say  they  make  use  of  any 
portion  of  it  that  furnishes  game,  and  a  use  that  is  necessary,  unless 
the  Government  is  prepared  to  give  them  full  rations  every  day. 

Q.  Well,  if  the  Government  should  assume  to  give  full  rations  every 
day  to  all  the  Indians  of  that  tribe  who  are  now  in  communication  with 
you,  what  additional  appropriations  would  you  require  ? 

A.  I  should  say,  if  you  mean  to  include  coffee  and  sugar  and  tobacco — 
I  am  only  guessing  now — I  should  say  two  millions  of  dollars  ought  to 
go  for  feeding  alone.  I  can  give  you  the  exact  cost  at  the  present 
prices,  by  reference  to  the  amount  of  rations  and  the  cost  of  each  article. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  would  it  not  be  for  the  advantage  of  the  Govern 
ment  to  make  that  addition  to  this  appropriation,  and  assume  for  the 
present  the  whole  charge  for  supporting  those  Indians  in  order  to  clear 
them  out  from  the  western  part  of  that  Territory,  and  to  get  them  into 
a  compact  position  where  you  could  know  just  whom  you  had  to  feed 
and  whom  you  had  not  ? 

A.  I  have  no  doubt  that  it  would. 


703 

Q.  Suppose,  then,  the  Government  were  to  take  that  view  of  it,  and 
assume  the  obligation,  how  long  a  time  would  elapse,  judging  from  your 
experience,  before  100  sections  of  land  would  be  actually  occupied  by 
those  Indians  for  agricultural  purposes  ? 

A.  You  mean  100  sections  actually  under  cultivation  ? 

Q.  Yes  ;  under  cultivation. 

A.  That  would  depend  entirely  upon  the  good  sense  with  which  they 
were  managed. 

Q.  Judging  from  your  best  experience  in  managing  them  ? 

A.  It  is  an  estimate  only,  but  I  should  put  it  at  two  thousand  years. 
I  mean  if  we  are  to  go  on  according  to  our  past  experience  at  Red 
Cloud  agency. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  oraered  these  agents  to  incur  no  liability  be 
yond  the  funds  in  their  hands  ? 

A.  Or  which  they  know  to  be  at  their  disposal.  I  sometimes  notify 
an  agent,  "  There  is  to  be  expended  at  your  agency  this  sum.  Look 
over  yorfr  field,  know  what  you  have  to  do,  and  send  me  in  your  plan 
for  the  year."  And  then  this  other  order — "  In  no  event  incur  liability 
for  your  agency  for  this  year  to  exceed  this  sum  which  has  been  named 
to  you."  I  am  not  able  to  carry  out  this  strictly  with  the  Sioux  agen 
cies,  because  I  cannot  determine  beforehand  the  needs  of  this  large 
tribe  with  any  degree  of  definiteness.  I  have  not  got  matters  reduced 
so  that  I  know  what  ought  to  be  done  this  year  here  or  there  among  the 
seven  agencies.  I  have  to  go  along  from  month  to  month  depending 
upon  the  agents'  estimates,  and  always  cutting  them  down  as  low  as  I 
can.  But  those  agents  have  been  given  to  understand  that  they  can 
not  incur  any  liability  without  permission,  unless  they  have  funds  in 
their  hands,  or  on  the  way  to  them,  of  which  they  have  had  notice. 

Q.  I  do  not  understand  that  there  is  any  exception,  then,  to  the 
order  as  you  stated  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  think  it  is  substantially  as  you  represented  it. 

Q.  When  was  that  new  law  adopted  by  you  ? 

A.  It  has  always  been  a  standing  order  of  the  Bureau  that  an  agent 
should  not  incur  liabilities ;  and  yet  the  agents  have  done  so  without 
being  called  to  account  for  it  until  I  made  the  order  more  stringent  and 
brought  them  to  it. 

Q.  When  did  you  make  the  order  more  stringent  ? 

A.  A  year  ago.  Then  about  ten  mouths  ago,  I  think,  the  order  went 
out  as  a  general  order.  I  had  written  to  individual  agents  at  different 
times  calling  their  attention  to  the  matter ;  and  then  I  made  a  general 
order,  and  had  a  circular  sent  out. 

Q.  You  will  furnish  us  a  copy  of  that  order? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

[A  copy  of  the  order  in  question  was  afterward  produced  as  follows  : 

[CIRCULAR.] 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 
OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  October  16,  1874. 

By  the  sixth  section  of  the  Indian  appropriation  act,  approved  June  22,  1874,  it  is  di 
rected  that  "no  expenditure  shall  be  made  or  liability  incurred  on  the  part,  of  the  Govern 
ment  on  account  of  the  Indian  service  for  the  fiscal  year  ending-  June  130,  1875,  (unless  in 
compliance  with  existing  law,)  beyond  the  amount  of  money  previously  appropriated  for 
said  service  during  said  year." 

In  order  to  enable  the  Department  to  carry  the  above  provisions  into  effect,  all  agents 
and  disbursing  officers  connected  with  this  Bureau  are  hereby  forbidden  to  contract  liabili 
ties  on  account  of  the  service  of  their  respective  agencies,  unless  such  agent  has  funds  at 


704 

his  disposal  applicable  for  payment  of  the  same,  and  has  also  received  special  authority  for 
such  procedure  from  this  Office. 

A  practice  is  found  prevailing  among  some  of  the  agents  of  issuing,  without  authority, 
certified  vouchers,  to  be  presented  by  the  holders  to  this  Office  for  payment.  This  practice 
must  cease,  and  in  no  case  must  a  certified  voucher  be  given  except  upon  special  intruc- 
tions  from  this  Office. 

EWD.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 

Q.  That  order,  as  I  understand  you,  was  not  a  new  order,  but  a  re-issue 
of  an  old  order  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  there  ever  had  been  a  circular-order  to  that 
effect ;  but,  so  far  as  I  can  find  from  Office  correspondence,  it  was  the  un 
derstanding  on  the  part  of  the  Bureau  previously.  I  didn't  suppose  I 
was  issuing  a  new  order,  but  calling  the  attention  of  agents  sharply  to 
what  they  ought  to  have  known,  and  probably  did  know  before. 

Q.  Well,  is  that  the  law  of  the  Department  now,  that  no  agent  can 
incur  any  debt  against  the  Government? 

A.  Not  properly. 

Q.  Can  he  at  all? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  He  can  buy  one  hundred  bushels  of  corn  if  he  can  get 
anybody  to  trust  him  as  an  Indian  agent  ? 

Q.  And  if  he  buys  one  hundred  bushels  of  corn,  will  the  Government 
be  bound  to  pay  for  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  not  in  law ;  though  I  think  the  Government  would  be 
bound  in  equity  ;  that  is,  if  the  agent,  as  a  representative  of  the  Gov 
ernment,  goes  to  a  farmer,  and  calls  for  one  hundred  bushels  of  corn,  I 
think  the  Government  should  pay  the  farmer,  and  deal  with  the  agent 
afterward. 

Q.  Well,  I  understood  you  to  say  to  the  chairman  that  you  thought 
that  the  credit  of  the  Department  was  depreciated  by  the  existence  of 
old  debts  unliquidated. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  thought  it  was  the  duty  of  Congress  to  provide  for  the 
payment  of  those  debts  in  order  to  improve  the  credit  of  the  agents  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  also  think  it  should  be  done  in  order  to  satisfy 
those  just  claims. 

Q.  If  the  debts  are  due  they  ought  to  be  paid.  I  don't  suppose  there 
would  be  any  difference  of  opinion  among  honest  men  about  that ;  but 
if  the  agents  are  instructed  by  you  not  to  employ  their  credit  at  all,  and 
they  do  employ  it,  would  it  not  be  to  the  advantage  of  the  Government 
to  depreciate  the  claims  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  but  to  dismiss  the  agents. 

Q.  If  the  agents  were  dismissed  others  would  have  to  be  appointed. 

A.  Dismiss  and  appoint  until  agents  could  be  found  who  would  obey 
orders. 

Q.  If  the  agent  ought  not  to  employ  his  credit,  what  is  the  use  of  his 
having  it? 

A.  He  ought  not  to  have  any  occasion  for  credit. 

Q.  He  is  told  by  you,  as  I  understand,  that  he  has  no  occasion  for 
credit  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  yet,  in  the  exigencies  which  come  in  the  wild  coun 
try,  and  oftener  when  you  are  dealing  with  wild  men,  there  may  be  a 
time  when  an  agent  needs  to  use  his  credit.  Then  he  would  be  justified 
in  taking  the  responsibility  of  violating  the  order ;  but  I  would  not  lay 
any  great  stress  on  that. 

Q.  You  don't  lay  any  great  stress  on  what  ? 


705 

A.  On  that  statement,  that  there  are  occasions  when  he  needs  and 
legitimately  can  seek  credit  even  under  this  order. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  know  there  are  such  cases,  when  he  can  employ  his 
credit,  and  must  employ  his  credit,  are  you  quite  justified  in  laying- 
down  a  law  to  say  he  shall  not  employ  his  credit? 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  that,  under  all  the  circumstances,  the  order 
should  be  inexorable.  I  know  there  have  been  and  may  be  again  cases 
of  emergency  rendering  it  necessary  for  the  agent  to  employ  his  credit, 
and  the  safest  way  is  to  put  him  upon  his  own  responsibility,  if  he  must 
violate  the  order. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  you  have  not  money  enough  appropriated 
this  year  to  feed  the  Sioux,  and  that  in  December  you  will  be  out  of 
money. 

A.  Oh,  no.  sir;  when  I  bring  the  Sioux  Indians,  in  December,  down 
to  the  money  that  belongs  to  December,  it  won't  supply  them  ;  and  a 
law  of  Congress  obliges  me  to  spend  the  money  pro  rata  throughout  the 
year. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  pro  rata  ? 

A.  A  twelfth  of  the  quantity  for  each  month,  unless  it  is  understood 
that  some  months  will  require  a  less  quantity  than  other  months. 

Q.  What  law  do  you  refer  to  ? 

A.  It  is  a  provision  in  the  Appropriation  Bill  of  last  year. 

Q.  Why  should  the  Indians  require  more  of  it  in  December  than  in 
November? 

A.  I  put  the  month  of  December  as  an  example  ;  they  will  not,  unless 
it  is  colder,  and  they  get  less  game,  or  for  some  reason  of  that  sort;  and 
I  put  it  so  far  off,  because  now  I  am  not  able  to  undertake  the^ro  rata 
rate  with  them  during  the  attempt  to  negotiate  with  them,  when  I  have 
to  keep  them  good-natured  at  all  hazards. 

Q.  What  is  it  you  are  doing  to  keep  them  good-natured  at  all  hazards  ? 

A.  Giving  them  all  they  want  to  eat  and  drink. 

Q.  Regardless  of  the  law  you  have  just  spoken  of? 

A.  It  is  impossible  for  me  now  to  put  that  requirement  in  force ;  for 
instance,  at  lied  Cloud  agency  the  number  has  very  largely  increased. 
I  cannot  say  to  the  agent  how  much  money  he  can  spend ;  and  I  don't 
want  to  raise  that  question  among  his  Indians  until  he  gets  through 
with  this  council ;  because  I  want  him  to  do  all  he  can  to  keep  the  In 
dians  good-natured  ;  so  I  take  the  risk. 

Q.  Just  what  risk  is  it  that  you  are  taking? 

A.  To  exceed  the  power  given  me  in  the  Appropriation  Bill.  I  am 
using  more  than  one  twelfth  of  my  fund  for  this  month.  1  suppose, 
and  as  I  understand  from  the  communications  of  inspectors,  this  whole 
Black  Hills  business,  which  has  broken  in  upon  the  Sioux  problem  this 
year  unexpectedly,  has  created  an  exigency  which  will  justify  a  necessity 
for  deficiency  appropriation.  The  expense  of  your  commission  and  the 
expense  of  the  Black  Hills  commission.— the  latter  involves  me  in  a 
large  unexpected  expenditure,  in  calling  those  Indians  and  making  pur 
chase  of  horses. 

Q.  What  purchase  of  horses  ? 

A.  One  hundred  horses  that  Senator  Allison,  chairman  of  the  Sioux 
commission,  telegraphed  for  the  other  day.  Those  expenditures  are 
using  up  the  fund  which  Congress  appropriated  for  the  benefit  of  the 
Sioux  ;  the  Sioux  Beneficial  Fund. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  using  up  the  $1,100,000? 

A.  No,  sir $  but  that  $1,100.000  won't  keep  the  Sioux  at  all.  I  put  my 
Beneficial  fund  in  also,  and  with  all  the  money  I  have  got  I  cannot  give 
45  IF 


706 

rations  to  the  Sioux.  I  have  not  got  enough  to  keep  them  through  the 
year,  in  my  best  judgment.  And,  in  addition  to  that,  I  have  this  un 
expected  large  expense  of  this  Black  Hills  business. 

Q.  You  did  not  expect  that  the  expense  of  the  Black  Hills  negotiation 
was  going  to  create  a  very  great  deficiency? 

A.  In  the  first  place  those  Sioux,  between  thirty  and  forty  of  them, 
were  brought  to  Washington.  You  cannot  move  thirty-five  Indians  and 
take  care  of  them  two  months  without  expense.  Then  all  those  com 
missioners  have  gone  out,  the  Indians  have  been  called  to  a  general 
rendezvous,  and  presents  have  been  made  to  them.  I  don't  know  what 
it  will  all  amount  to.  It  will  be  a  very  considerable  sum  for  me  to  spare, 
when  I  havn't  any  to  spare. 

Q.  Well,  what  you  mean  by  deficiency,  then,  is  the  sum  occasioned 
by  these  extraordinary  expenditures? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  an  unexpected  expenditure,  and  there  will  be  a  de 
ficiency  occasioned  by  it.  Then  I  think  there  will  necessarily  be  a 
deficiency  occasioned  by  giving  the  Sioux  enough  to  keep  them  from 
disturbance;  at  least,  to  keep  them  from  hunger,  certainly  enough  to 
keep  them  from  complaints,  such  as  even  Professor  Marsh  did  not  hear 
when  he  was  out  there  in  that  snow-storm. 

Q.  You  said  to  Mr.  Faulkner  that  you  considered  your  agricultural 
experiments  with  the  Sioux  so  far  a  failure? 

A.  Well,  he  confined  his  inquiry  to  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail 
agencies.  My  answer  would  be  materially  modified  if  I  included  the 
other  Sioux  agencies. 

Q.  Is  your  experience  with  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  a 
failure  ? 

A.  A  failure,  if  raising  a  crop  is  the  standard  of  success.  But  if 
making  a  beginning  is  the  standard,  it  is  all  that  any  reasonable  man 
could  have  expected  in  the  circumstances. 

Q.  What  beginning  have  you  made  with  those  agencies? 
A.  I  have  got  them  so  that  some  of  them  ask  for  plows,  and,  as  I  un 
derstand,  a  few  of  them  have  taken  out  a  small  ditch  and  commenced 
planting  a  little.  I  don't  know  whether  more  than  half  a  dozen  of  the 
Indians  have  done  that.  I  suppose  more  of  the  half-breeds  have  done 
it  than  of  the  full-bloods.  Last  year  was  the  first  year  when  anything 
of  the  sort  could  have  been  done.  It  was  physically  impossible  to  un 
dertake  much,  certainly,  with  the  Spotted  Tail  and  Eed  Cloud  Indians 
until  they  got  where  they  are  now. 

Q.  Why  more  practicable  now  than  while  they  were  at  other  places  ? 
A.  Heretofore  Spotted  Tail  has  been  on  an  alkali  barren,  where  there 
was  no  water  even  to  dig  out  for  irrigation. 

Q.  Are  you  well  assured  that  his  present  location  is  more  favorable 
for  agricultural  purposes  than  his  former  locations  have  been  ? 

A.  I  am  only  assured  so  by  the  persons  who  located  them,  and  by  the 
agent. 

Q.  Your  agent  has  so  informed  you? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  respect  does  he  ascribe  greater  advantages  to  the  present 
location  ? 

A.  In  that  he  is  in  a  country  where  there  are  patches  of  ground  that 
are  susceptible  of  cultivation. 

Q.  Is  there  more  water  there  than  he  had  when  he  was  on  the  White 
River  ? 

A.  I  understand  it  is  more  capable  of  ditching  than  where  he  was 
before.  A  stream  of  water  running  between  high  banks  is  generally  of 
no  use  for  ditching. 


707 

Q.  How  long  has  Red  Cloud  been  at  his  present  agency  ! 

A.  Two  years.    This  is  his  second  summer. 

Q.  Where  was  he  formerly  located  ? 

A.  Down  towards  the  Platte,  and  near  Fort  Laramie. 

Q.  Are  you  assured  that  his  present  location  is  more  available  for  ag 
ricultural  purposes  than  the  old  location  was '? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  dont  know  much  about  the  old  location  in  that  respect. 
All  that  matter  was  discussed  before  I  knew  anything  about  it.  The 
preliminaries  of  removal  were  gone  through  before  I  came  into  office. 
I  am  not  acquainted  with  the  country  he  left. 

Q.  You  say  he  was  moved  two  years  ago  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  two  years  ago. 

Q.  You  have  been  Commissioner  how  long? 

A.  Two  years. 

Q.  You  say  the  beginning  which  has  been  made  by  these  bauds  in  agri 
cultural  pursuits  was  in  asking  you  for  plows.  Have  you  furnished  any 
plows  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  the  agent  has  got  some  plows  ;  more  especially 
for  the  half- breeds. 

Q.  You  don't  know  that  he  has  furnished  Indians  with  any  plows? 

A.  I  think  he  has.  Personal  ownership  of  a  plow  is  not  a  necessary 
prerequisite  for  Indian  planting.  The  agent  can  plow  for  those  who 
want  to  begin  to  farm.  I  think  some  of  Spotted  Tail's  Indians  have 
plows,  however,  but  I  am  not  certain.  They  talked  about  it  frequently 
in  their  interviews  with  me  this  summer ;  of  course  it  was  the  talk  of 
children,  who  knew  very  little  of  what  they  were  saying,  but  it  shows 
the  dawning  of  an  idea  of  civilized  life. 

Q.  In  speaking  about  that  Appleton  contract  for  sawing  lumber  I  un 
derstood  you  to  say  that  Doctor  Saville's  explanation  modified  your  views, 
especially  as  to  the  merits  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  you  don't  think  Doctor  Bevier  gave  a  fair  statement  of  the 
contract? 

A.  No,  sir;  if  Doctor  Saville's  statement  is  true,  (and  it  seems  to  me 
quite  probable,)  then  it  was  not  fair  in  Doctor  Bevier  not  to  have  taken 
that  into  consideration. 

Q.  What  are  those  facts  which  he  ought  to  have  taken  into  considera 
tion,  in  your  judgment  ? 

A.  That  the  mill  was  a  crippled  affair,  only  fifteen  horse-power  any 
how,  (that  is  my  recollection  of  it,)  and  breaking  down  frequently  at 
that.  It  was  not  capable  of  anything  like  a  fair  day's  work  for  a  saw 
mill. 

Q.  Can  you  explain  how  such  a  mill  happened  to  be  located  there  ? 

A.  I  cannot ;  but  it  is  one  of  the  most  natural  things  in  the  Indian 
service,  that  with  a  short  appropriation  you  should  get  a  cheap  mill, 
and  that  when  run  by  incompetent  hands  such  a  mill  should  get  badly 
out  of  order. 

Q.  Was  the  appropriation  for  the  purpose  of  the  mill  a  short  appro 
priation  ? 

A.  I  presume  there  was  no  appropriation  for  the  purpose  of  a  mill, 
but  it  was  taken  out  of  this  Sioux  Beneficial  Fund,  or  some  other, 

Q.  Are  you  or  are  you  not  aware  that  the  Treaty  of  1868  provided  for 
the  erection  of  a  mill  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  that  mill  has  never  been  erected  according  to  the 
Treaty.  The  money  has  been  appropriated,  but  has  never  been  used. 
The  sum  of  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  was  put  to  the  credit  of  the  In- 


708 

dian  Bureau,  but  has  never  been  used  because  we  have  never  been  able 
to  locate  the  Indians  where  the  Treaty  and  the  appropriation  required 
that  money  to  be  expended. 

Q.  Then,  do  I  understand  you  to  say  that,  after  the  Treaty  had  pro 
vided  for  the  location  of  a  rail!  and  agency-buildings  on  one  place,  and  the 
appropriation  was  made  to  meet  the  expenditure,  you  did  not  make  the 
expenditure,  but  yon  did  take  from  another  fund'  appropriated  to  an 
other  purpose ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  beg  your  pardon — beneficial  purposes — 

Q.  That  you  did  take  from  a  fund  appropriated  for  beneficial  pur 
poses  a  sufficient  sum  to  build  an  incompetent  mill? 

A.  No  ;  I  did  not  make  that  statement,  at  least  not  in  that  form.  In 
the  first  place.  I  don't  know  anything"  about  it  from  any  personal  ex 
amination.  I  only  said,  probably,  (and  that  would  be  from  my  acquaint 
ance  with  the  management  of  affairs,)  that  the  agent  who  wanted  the 
mill  would  get  the  best  mill  he  could  out  of  the  money  for  that  year — 
out  of  the  money  the  Office  informed  him  he  could  use  for  that  purpose, 
and  the  Office  would  give  him  such  money  as  it  could  spare  for  that  pur 
pose,  and  no  more.  This  mill  was  purchased  before  I  came  into  office. 

Q.  And  you  judge  that  was  the  actual  course  of  administration,  from 
your  general  knowledge  of  the  administration  of  affairs  in  that  office! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  fact  is,  the  Indian  Office  is  always  on  short  allowance. 
We  almost  never  do  what  we  want  to,  but  what  we  can  and  must ;  we 
cannot  often  do  what  would  be  the  reasonable,  economical,  right  thing 
to  do  if  a  man  was  doing  it  for  himself. 

Q.  Bo  you  know7  what  that  beneficial  fund  has  been  in  former  years  ? 

A.  It  is  fixed  by  treaty. 

Q.  It  has  been  previously  $200,000  a  year! 

A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  have  been  better  economy  to  have  taken 
enough  from  that  fund  to  put  up  a  good  mill 

A.  If  he  could 

Q.  And  used  less  of  it  for  other  purposes,  than  to  have  taken  a  small 
mill  that  was  not  worth  anything  ? 

A.  That  depends  upon  what  the  other  necessary  purposes  were  at  that 
time.  It  is  a  question  of  comparative  necessity  of  doing  something  that 
must  be  done,  and  doing  it  as  well  as  you  can  with  what  funds  you  have 
left  for  it.  I  should  say  that  if  you  must  have  a  mill  and  have  not  funds 
for  a  large  one,  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  buy  a  small  one. 

Q.  Have  you  no  idea  as  to  what  that  mill  did  cost  actually? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  presume  it  cost  fully  what  it  was  worth. 

Q.  Would  the  records  of  your  office  enable  you  to  state  ? 

A.  Probably,  the  cost  of  first  purchase  will  be  found  there,  but  that 
will  depend  upon  how  it  was  put  up.  If  on  contract,  the  whole  cost 
will  be  easily  found  ;  otherwise  it  may  be  quite  difficult  to  get  the  whole 
cost  without  going  through  all  the  agency-accounts  of  that  quarter. 

Q.  Can  you  conceive  or  put  in  words  any  possible  justification  for  an 
agent  spending  anything  for  the  erection  of  a  mill  which  when  up  and 
the  engineer  supplied  cannot  get  out  lumber  for  less  than  $14  a  thou 
sand  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  can  conceive  how  a  mill  might  be  purchased  and  be  a 
good  purchase,  arid  a  good  mill  for  the  required  use,  and  then  be  so 
wretchedly  used  for  two  or  three  years  as  not  to  be  able  to  do  anything, 
riot  to  be  able  to  cut  lumber  short  of  $100  a  thousand.  I  do  not  want 
at  all  to  be  understood  as  justifying  the  Appleton  contract;  I  annulled 
it  immediately  on  the  Inspector's  report. 


70(J 

Q.  Mr.  Commissioner,  the  Treaty  of  1868  provided  that  the  United 
States  should  furnish  a  pound  of  beef  and  a  pound  of  flour  daily  to 
those  Sioux  Indians.  I  understand  it  is  the  custom  of  the  agencies,  in 
stead  of  delivering  beef,  to  deliver  beef-cattle  on  the  foot  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  state  what  is  the  origin  of  that  usage  ? 

A.  I  suppose  it  dates  back  to  the  time  of  hunting  buffalo.  That  is 
the  Indian  custom  that  required  it,  and  which  belongs  to  his  life  of  the 
chase.  The  Treaty  evidently  refers  to  beef  on  the  block.  The  wild  In 
dian  says  he  wants  his  beef  on  the  hoof.  So  a  computation  was  made 
from  net  to  gross,  and  he  is  humored. 

Q.  Have  you  evidence  that  the  Sioux  Indians  require  their  beef  deliv 
ered  to  them  on  the  hoof  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  does  that  evidence  come  to  you  ? 

A.  They  have  made  their  request  themselves.  I  undertook  to  break 
it  up  at  Cheyenne  agency,  on  the  Missouri  River,  and  the  agent  has  been 
in  a  tight  about  it  ever  since ;  and  one  of  their  most  serious  grievances 
which  they  required  should  be  redressed  at  their  visit  here  last  spring, 
and  as  Lone  Horn  told  me  the  principal  occasion  for  their  coming,  and 
which  almost  broke  his  heart  that  he  did  not  get,  was  that  his  agent 
killed  his  cattle  for  him,  instead  of  turning  them  over  to  the  Indians 
for  them  to  shoot,  as  they  had  always  done. 

Q.  Have  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  bands  made  similar  de 
mands  upon  you  ? 

A.  They  have  not,  but  they  would  undoubtedly  if  I  should  undertake 
to  bring  them  to  take  beef  from  the  block.  This  has  not  been  attempted 
there  yet. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  a  wise  distribution  of  the  funds  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think,  as  far  as  the  feeding-fund  is  concerned,  the  cost 
of  butchering  would  equal,  if  not  exceed,  the  saving  in  meat.  If  you 
keep  an  Indian  hungry,  he  does  not  lose  much  meat,  no  matter  how  he 
gets  it.  But  there  is  a  barbarism  about  this  mode  of  killing  which  the 
block  would  prevent ;  and,  besides,  the  block  would  put  an  additional 
check  upon  the  contractor,  which  is  desirable. 

Q.  Does  not  the  Indian,  when  you  deliver  him  beef-cattle  instead  of 
beef,  get  either  less  beef  than  he  is  entitled  to,  or  don't  h'e  get  something, 
such  as  the  hide  and  the  tallow  of  the  animal,  which  are  not  beef,  and 
which  he  is  not  entitled  to  1 

A.  Yes,  sir.  I  don't  know  but  he  might ;  but  that  is  given  to  him  by 
weight.  He  takes  it  in  lieu  of  meat. 

Q.  Well,  if  the  value  of  the  hide  and  tallow  is  deducted  from  the 
weight,  then  the  Indian  loses  necessary  food,  does  he  not  f 

A.  No,  sir;  the  tallow  is  worth  more  to  him  for  food  bj-  the  pound 
than  the  beef. 

Q.  Does  he  use  it  for  food  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  he  use  the  hide  for  food  ? 

A.  He  sells  it  to  the  trader  in  exchange  for  other  things  that  he  wants. 

Q.  Does  he  use  the  hide  for  food  ? 

A.  If  he  gets  food  by  exchange,  he  does.     He  does  not  eat  the  hide. 

Q.  Then  the  value  of  the  hide,  or  the  weight  of  the  hide,  is  deducted 
from  the  food  which  he  needs  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  as  it  is  deducted  from  that  which  he  needs.  He  is 
supposed  to  get  what  he  needs  to  eat  at  all  hazards;  he  has  no  claim 
by  treaty  for  anything  to  eat. 


710 

Q.  Not  now  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  lie  bad  1 

A.  He  cannot  enforce  his  pound  of  beef. 

Q.  He  bad  a  claim  before  tbe  four  years  expired  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  be  bas  still  wbat  is  equivalent  to  bis  claim,  and  better  tban 
bis  claim,  if  I  understand  you,  and  tbat  is  our  obligation  to  furnish  him 
enough  to  eat;  that  if  he  don't  get  it  out  of  $1,100,000,  he  has  to  have 
more. 

A.  No,  sir;  be  has  not  our  obligation  for  anything  except  to  make 
him  behave  and  make  a  man  out  of  him,  if  we  can. 

Q.  No ;  but  if  tbe  §1,100,000  which  we  have  gratuitously  appropriated 
does  not  support  him,  you  will  ask  Congress  to  appropriate  more  money  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  will  ask  it  upon  the  ground  that  the  Government  ought 
to  appropriate  more. 

A.  Yes,  sir;  from  a  moral  point  of  view,  and  for  reasons  of  economy 
in  controlling  tbe  Sioux. 

Q.  Of  course.  Now,  in  addition  to  tbe  meat  we  have  actually  paid  for, 
we  shall  furnish  him,  under  this  year's  contract,  with  30,000  hides,  shall 
we  not  ? 

A.  I  should  guess  more  tban  that. 

Q.  Which  he  cannot  eat  at  all.  Have  you  any  information  as  to  wbat 
disposition  the  Indians  make  of  those  hides  ? 

A.  The  Indian  claims  the  bide  as  bis  perquisite.  He  takes  it,  as  I 
understand,  to  the  trader,  and  drives  the  best  bargain  he  can  in  exchange. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  wbat  kind  of  a  bargain  he  drives  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  would  be  the  market-value  of  those  bides  which 
be  claims  as  a  perquisite. 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Would  it  be  less  than  $5  ? 

A.  Oh  yes  ;  about  $1.50  or  $2. 

Mr.  FAULKNER.  I  can  state  tbe  fact  positively  that  they  have  sold 
them  at  tbe  agency  for  $3,  and  the  trader  reports  that  he  gets  $5  to  $6 
apiece  for  them,- but  be  has  to  perform  upon  them  some  labor. 

WITNESS.  There  is  another  consideration  about  these  hides  that  I 
may  mention.  The  whole  policy  of  feeding  the  Sioux  has  been  on 
the  idea  that  the  Government  has  been  disposed  to  temporize  with  them, 
gratify  them,  keep  them  good-natured,  keep  them  quiet,  as  at  least  the 
cheapest  way  of  dealing  with  them  for  the  present,  and  this  use  of  hides 
is  a  very  gratifying  one  to  them,  so  that  it  is  as  a  sort  of  sop  thrown  to 
a  wild  animal,  just  as  a  considerable  amount  of  other  expenditures  that 
we  have  been  making  for  Indians  bas  been. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Mr.  Commissioner,  one  topic  more,  and  that  is  about  the  education 
of  the  Sioux  Indians  1  What  steps  have  been  taken  to  promote  their 
education  ? 

A.  Until  quite  recently,  with  the  exception  of  two  of  tbe  bands,  noth 
ing  deserving  tbe  name. 

Q.  What  two? 

A.  Those  are  the  Yanktons  and  Santees. 

Q.  What  have  you  done  for  the  education  of  those  two  tribes? 

A.  The  Government  has  done  much  less  for  them  than  the  missiona 
ries. 


711 

Q.  I  was  speaking  of  the  Government. 

A.  The  Government  has  expended  the  amount  named  in  the  Treaty, 
which  I  don't  recall  now,  upon  the  missionary  societies  furnishing 
teachers,  or  paying  salaries  of  the  teachers  which  those  societies  fur 
nished.  But  there  is  a  provision  in  the  treaty  for  the  pay  of  live  teach 
ers,  or  a  provision  that  those  teachers  shall  be  furnished. 

Q.  There  is  no  special  provision  for  educational  uses  among  those,  is 
there? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  five  teachers,  the  appropriation  is  made  for. 

Q.  Eead  it. 

A,  "  For  pay  of  physician,  five  teachers,  one  carpenter,  one  miller,  one 
engineer,  one  farmer,  one  blacksmith,  $10,400." 

Q.  Whom  is  that  for? 

A.  That  is  for  eleven  employes  named,  but  I  don't  know  what  portion 
of  this  sum  is  for  the  teachers. 

Q.  But  that  appropriation  is  not  made  for  the  benefit  of  the  Yankton 
and  Santee  Sioux  exclusively  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  You  were  speaking  of  the  educational  advantages  ;  and 
those  five  teachers,  as  I  understand  it,  have  been  employed  mainly 
among  the  Yankton s  and  Santees,  because  the  other  bands  were  not 
ready  for  teachers.  Five  teachers  are  not  enough  for  these  seven  Sioux 
agencies. 

Q.  You  have  had,  then,  the  five  teachers  so  employed  among  those 
two  bands. 

A.  I  suppose  so  ;  that  is  according  to  the  Treaty,  and  I  suppose 
service  has  been  performed.  I  aui  not  speaking  from  the  record. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  schools  which  have  been  main 
tained  at  these  two  agencies  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have  been  in  some  of  them,  and  I  have  reports  from 
them  regularly.  I  knew  about  them  two  years  ago. 

Q.  You  visited  them  two  years  ago. 

A.  Y"es,  sir. 

Q.  Bid  you  find  five  schools  ? 

A.  I  think  I  found  six. 

Q.  Five  of  them  were  kept  by  teachers  paid  out  of  this  fund  ? 

A.  I  think  they  were  all  paid  out  of  that  fund,  but  I  am  not  sure.  A 
single  school  may  have  three  or  four  teachers.  There  must  have  been 
at  that  time,  including  the  missionary  teachers,  ten  or  twelve  teachers 
in  these  schools. 

Q.  How  many  scholars  did  you  find  in  attendance  ? 

A.  I  am  not  able  to  state. 

Q.  Didn't  you  notice? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  but  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  anything  indicating  the  proficiency  they  made  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  remember  children  reading  and  writing  and  working 
examples  in  arithmetic. 

Q.  Indian  children  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  the  full  blood? 

A.  Full  blood,  speaking  English. 

Q.  You  found  that  at  those  agencies  ! 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  say  anything  about  the  number  ? 

A.  I  should  say  from  150  to  200. 

Q.  Reading  and  speaking  the  English  language  ? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  would  not  say  that. 


712 

Q.  Could  you  sny  anything  about  the  number  you  found  who  could 
read  and  speak  our  language  '? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  ought  to  say  this:  Not  a  great  many  were  speaking  the 
English  language,  because  the  method  of  the  missionaries  among  them  is, 
I  think,  an  unfortunate  one  ;  that  is,  teaching  them  mainly  in  their  own 
language.  I  have  had  an  issue  with  the  teachers  on  that.  I  want  them 
to  teach  Indian  children  the  English  language. 

Q.  What  is  the  fact  ?     Which  language  was  taught  in  those  schools  ? 

A.  The  Indian  language  was  taught,  and  then  as  much  English  as 
they  could  teach  in  connection  with  the  Indian.  But  my  theory  was, 
that  they  should  teach  the  English  language  at  any  rate,  and  make  the 
Indian  incidental  to  that. 

By  Mr.  EAULKNER  : 

Q.  Is  it  not  their  plan  to  have  the  school-house  divided  into  two 
rooms,  in  one  ot  which  they  teach  the  ISioux  language  and  the  oilier 
English  ? 

A.  No,  sir,  I  didn't  notice  that, 

By  Mr.  Bo  WE  : 

Q.  Outside  of  those  two  agencies,  I  understand  you  to  say  that,  until 
recently,  no  attempt  has  been  made  to  advance  them  in  civilization  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  of  any  consequence  until  of  late.  The  Cheyenne  agency, 
I  think,  began  a  year  or  perhaps  a  year  and  a  half  ago;  I  don't  know  but 
it  was  commencing  when  I  was  there,  and  at  the  Crow  Creek  agency 
there  have  been  attempts  at  schools.  Day-schools  have  been  kept  for  a 
while,  but,  as  a  rule,  are  of  very  little  value  among  wild  Indians  as 
compared  with  boarding  and  manual-labor  schools. 

Q.  What  movement  has  been  recently  set  on  foot  to  which  you  refer  ? 

A.  The  Episcopal  Church  has  taken  up  the  education  of  the  Sioux 
very  recently  and  in  a  very  practical  way,  under  Bishop  Hare's  man 
agement,  and  has  entered  into  a  contract  to  teach  a  certain  number  of 
schools  for  so  much  per  year  at  different  points. 

Q.  Entered  into  contract  with  whom  "? 

A.  With  the  Indian  Bureau. 

Q.  When  was  that  contract  made  ? 

A.  There  have  been  several  made  for  the  different  points.  It  has 
been  running  through  the  last  year  or  more. 

Q.  Are  those  contracts  reduced  to  writing! 

A.  Yes,  sir;  signed  by  both  parties  ;  signed  by  myself  and  by  Bishop 
Hare  as  the  representative  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Q.  Can  you  furnish  us  copies  of  those  contracts  f 

A.  Yes.  sir. 

[Witness  subsequently  furnished  the  papers,  as  follows:] 

SCHOOLS    AT    MISSOURI    RIVER    AGENCIES. 

This  agreement,  made  and  entered  into  at  the  city  of  Washington,  D.  C.,  the  25th  day  of 
December,  Jrt74,  between  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  and  in  be 
half  of  the  United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  William  H.  Hare,  bishop  of  Niobrara,  of  the 
second  part,  witnesseth : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself  and  his  legal  representatives,  hereby 
covenants  and  agrees  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  to  take  charge  of  and  properly 
carry  on  for  the  term  of  six  months,  commencing  January  I,  Id75,  and  ending  June  30, 
1875,  the  schools  hereinafter  designated,  viz  : 

First.  A  day-school  at  Choteau  Creek,  Yankton  Indian  reservation,  Dakota,  with  an  av 
erage  attendance  of  twenty-five  (25)  pupils. 

Second.  A  girls'  boarding-school  at  Yankton  Indian  agency,  Dakota,  with  from  fifteen ' 
(15)  to  twenty  (20)  boarders. 


713 

Third.  A  day-school  on  the  Yankton  Indian  reservation,  at  Swans,  Dakota,  with  an  av 
erage  of  twenty-five  (45)  pupils. 

Fourth.  A  day-school  at  Ponca  reservation,  Dakota,  with  an  average  of  twenty  (20)  pu 
pils. 

Also,  at  the  Upper  Missouri  or  Crow  Creek  Indian  reservation,  Dakota,  the  following 
schools,  viz : 

First.  A  day-school  at  Lower  Camp,  with  an  average  of  fifteen  (15)  pupils. 

Second.  A  girl's  boarding-school  at  the  agency  for  ten  (10)  scholars. 

Third.  A  day-school  at  the  Upper  Camp,  frith  an  average  of  fifteen  (15)  pupils. 

Fourth.  A  boarding  and  day  school  at  Cheyenne  River  Indian  reservation,  Dakota. 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  furnish  suitable  teachers  for  all  the 
schools  named,  to  furnish  fuel,  &c.,  for  the  day-schools,  and  fuel  and  clothing  for  the  scholars, 
and  everything  necessary  and  requisite  for  the  comfort  and  health  of  the  scholars,  and  to 
properly  conduct-the  boarding-schools. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be  paid  to  the  party  of  the  second  part, 
or  to  his  legal  representatives,  for  the  faithful  performance  on  his  part  of  the  stipulations  of 
this  agreement,  as  follows,  viz  : 

For  the  Choteau  Creek  day-school,  three  hundred  (300)  dollars  in  money,  and  for  each 
scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

For  Yankton  agency  boarding-school  five  hundred  (500)  dollars. 

For  day-school  at  Swans,  Yankton  reservation,  three  hundred  (300)  dollars  in  money,  and 
for  each  scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

For  day-school  at  Ponca  reservation,  three  hundred  (300)  dollars  in  money,  and  for  each 
scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

For  day-school  at  Lower  Camp,  Upper  Missouri  Indian  reservation,  three  hundred  (300) 
dollars  in  money,  and  for  each  scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

For  girls'  boarding-school  at  the  Upper  Missouri  or  Crow  Creek  agency,  four  hundred 
(400)  dollars. 

For  day-school  at  Upper  Camp,  on  the  Upper  Missouri  or  Crow  Creek  reservation,  three 
hundred  (300)  dollars  in  money,  and  for  each  scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

For" boarding  and  day  school  at  Cheyenne  River  reservation,  four  hundred  (400)  dollars  in 
money,  and  for  each  scholar  one  daily  ration  of  beef. 

The  said  sums  of  money  are  to  be  paid  in  two  equal  payments,  to  wit :  One-half  on  the 
1st  day  of  April,  1875,  and  one-half  on  the  30th  day  of  June,  1875  ;  the  rations  to  be  fur 
nished  by  the  respective  agents  on  the  requisition  of  the  party  of  the  second  part. 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part  agrees  to  furnish  the  party  of  the  first  part  at  the  end  of 
each  month  with  a  report  showing  the  number  of  scholars  in  attendance  at  each  school, 
their  progress,  and  the  condition  and  prospects  of  the  schools  generally. 

It  is  mutually  agreed  between  the  parties  hereto  that  upon  the  expiration  of  the  provisions 
of  this  agreement,  the  same  may  be  extended  for  the  further  period  of  one  year,  upoii  the 
same  terms  and  rates  of  payment. 

Each  party  reserves  the  right  to  terminate  this  agreement  at  any  time  after  giving  the 
other  party,  or  his  representatives,  three  months'  notice. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the  day  and 
year  above  written. 

EDW.  P.    SMITH,  [SEAL.] 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 

WILLIAM  H.  HARE,  [SEAL.] 

Bishop  of  Niobrara. 

In  presence  of — 

HENRY  ST.  GEORGE  YOUNG. 
JOHN  W.  KENNEDY. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

January  lf>,  1875. 

The  action  of  the  executive  committee  is  hereby  sustained. 

C.  DELANO,  Secretary. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

January  15,  1875. 
Approved. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  January  1(5,  1875. 

Examined  and  approved.  • 

F.  H.  SMITH, 
WM.  STICKNEY, 

Executive  Committee. 


714 

SCHOOLS  AT  SPOTTED  TAIL  AND  RED  CLOUD  AGENCIES. 

This  agreement,  made  and  entered  into  at  the  city  of  Washington,  D.  C.,  29th  day  of 
March,  1875,  between  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  and  on  behalf 
of  the  United  States,  party  of  the  first  part,  and  William  H.  Hare,  bishop  of  Niobrara,  party 
of  the  second  part,  witnesseth  : 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself  and  his  legal  representatives,  hereby  cove 
nants  and  agrees  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  to  take  charge  and  properly  carry  on 
the  schools  hereinafter  designated  during  the  'time  designated,  all  of  said  schools  being  in 
Nebraska  and  Dakota,  arid  for  the  benefit  of  the  Indian  children  thereof,  to  wit : 

A  day-school  at  Batin's  point  of  timber,  Yank  toil  reservation,  and  about  five  miles  be 
low  the  agency,  for  the  term  of  eighteen  mouths  from  January  1,  1875,  until  July  the  1st, 
1876,  (said  school  being  now  and  having  been  in  continuous  operation  under  the  charge  of 
and  at  the  expense  of  said  W.  H.  Hare  from  said  January  1st,  1875,)  with  an  average  at 
tendance  of  twenty-five  (25)  scholars.  All  the  following  schools  for  the  term  of  one  year 
from  July  the  1st,  1875,  until  July  the  1st,  1876: 

First.  A  day-school  at  Spotted  Tail  agency,  with  an  average  attendance  of  seventy  schol 
ars. 

Second.  A  day-school  at  the  Red  Cloud,  with  an  average  attendance  of  twenty-five 
scholars. 

Third.  A  day-school  at  Lower  Bnil<5,  with  an  avera'ge  attendance  of  twenty-five  scholars. 

The  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  furnish  suitable  teachers  for  all  the  schools 
named,  and  fuel  and  all  things  necessary  and  requisite  for  carrying  on  the  same. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  hereby  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be  paid  to  the  said  party  of 
the  second  part,  or  to  his  legal  representative,  for  the  faithful  performance  on  his  part  of  the 
stipulations  of  this  agreement,  as  follows: 

The  day-school  at  Batin's  point  of  timber,  Yankton  reservation,  nine  hundred  dollars  in 
money,  in  six  equal  payments  of  one  hundred  and  fifty  dollars  each,  payable  quarterly  there 
after  at  the  time  of  the  regular  quarterly  payments  to  agency  employes,  and  one  daily  ration 
of  beef  for  each  scholar. 

For  the  day-school  at  Spotted  Tail  agency,  one  thousand  dollars  in  money  and  one  daily 
ration  of  beef  for  each  scholar. 

For  the  day-school  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  six  hundred  dollars  in  money  and  one  daily  ration 
of  beef  for  each  scholar. 

For  the  day-school  at  Lower  Brule,  six  hundred  dollars  in  money  and  one  daily  ration  of 
beef  for  each  scholar. 

The  said  sums  of  money  for  the  last  three  schools,  at  Spotted  Tail,  Red  Cloud,  and  Lower 
Brul6,  are  to  be  paid  in  four  equal  payments  of  five  hundred  and  fifty  dollars  each  ;  payable 
quarterly  thereafter  at  the  time  of  the  regular  quarterly  payment  to  agency  employes  :  and 
the  beef  rations  are  to  be  furnished  by  the  respective  Indian  agents  on  the  requisition  of  the 
party  of  the  second  part  or  his  legal  representatives,  and  from  the  opening  of  the  school. 

The  party  ot  the  second  part  also  agree  to  furnish  the  party  of  the  first  part  at  the  end  of 
each  month  a  report  showing  the  number  of  scholars  in  attendance  at  each  school,  their  pro 
gress  and  condition,  and  the  prospects  of  the  school  generally. 

Each  party  reserves  the  right  to  terminate  this  agreement  at  any  time  after  giving  the 
other  party  or  his  representatives  three  months'  notice,  after  which  termination  all  rights  or 
obligations  inuring  thereafter  under  the  contract  shall  cease. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the  day  and 
year  above  written. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH. 
WILLIAM  H.  HARE. 

Witness  to  Edw.   P.  Smith  : 
JOHN  H.  VOOKHEES. 

Witness  to  W.  H.  Hare  : 
S.  M.  MILLER. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

H'asliington,  May  8,  1875. 

Examined  and  approved. 

F.  H.  SMITH, 
WM.  STICKNEY, 
Executive  Committee. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  IN   TE 

May  18,  1875. 
The  action  of  the  executive  committee  is  hereby  sustained. 

B.  R.  CO  WEN, 

Acting  Secret  try. 

Mr.  HOWE.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Commissioner. 

WITNESS.  I  have  thought  of  a  matter  that  I  might  have  stated  in 


715 

connection  with  the  question  of  the  treaty  stipulation,  that  tbe  Indians 
should  be  moved  to  the  Missouri  River.  More  than  half  those  Indians 
that  made  that  Treaty  are  on  the  Missouri,  and  have  been  settled  there 
in  pursuance  of  the  treaty. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  this  question :  Suppose  you  had  said,  or  your 
predecessor  had  said,  to  the  Sioux  Nation.  "  Your  obligation  is  to  come 
to  the  Missouri  Eiver  and  be  counted  ;  and  when  you  will  come  to  the 
Missouri  River  and  be  counted  we  will  feed  you  according  to  the  stipu 
lation  of  the  Treaty,  and  not  until  then,"  what  would  have  happened  ? 

A.  They  would  not  have  come. 

Q.  Would  not  any  of  them  have  come  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  a  few  would  have  come  at  first;  not  many;  and  others, 
when  they  got  very  hungry  in  the  winter,  would  have  come  over  and 
asked  for  rations. 

Q.  But  if  they  did  not  come  ? 

A.  They  would  have  gone  south,  down  in  the  buffalo  country  on  the 
Republican  Fork,  and  lived  off  buffalo  and  off  the  citizens  of  Kansas 
and  Nebraska  ? 

Q.  How  long  would  they  have  lived  there  ? 

A.  Until  this  time,  unless  the  soldiers  had  got  after  them,  and  then 
there  would  have  been  a  fight  with  the  whole  Sioux  Nation. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  We  found  at  lied  Cloud,  Mr.  Commissioner,  that  there  were  about 
$5,000  in  amount  of  vouchers  outstanding  for  obligations  which  had 
been  incurred  in  the  erection  of  agency  buildings.  What  explanation 
is  to  be  given  of  that? 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir;  except  that  the  buildings  had  to  be  erected. 

Q.  I  mean  of  the  fact  that  the  payments  have  not  been  made. 

A.  That  there  was  not  money  enough  in  the  appropriation  of  that 
year  to  meet  this  balance  due.  I  cannot  pay  with  the  money  I  have  now 
in  hand  for  liabilities  incurred  then. 

Q.  Is  there  no  way  of  paying  those  outstanding  vouchers  except  by 
appropriation  of  Congress? 

A.  No,  sir  If  I  had  plenty  of  money  this  year,  I  could  not  use  it  for 
that  purpose. 

Q.  Since  Dr.  Saville  has  been  there  he  has  incurred  an  indebtedness 
of,  I  should  say,  (if  my  recollection  serves  me,)  $1,200  or  $2,000  for  hay 
for  the  supply  of  the  agency.  Was  not  there  an  appropriation  for  that 
at  the  time  the  debt  was  incurred  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  whether  there  was  any  appropriation  for  hay.  It 
would  be  determined  by  how  much  money  there  was  on  hand. 

Q.  Then,  with  regard  to  the  mode  of  inspecting  supplies.  How  is  the 
present  mode  of  inspection  determined  ? 

A.  Do  you  mean  who  determines  it  ? 

Q.  Yes.     Under  what  provision  of  law  are  goods  now  inspected  ? 

A.  They  are  inspected  under  my  order. 

Q.  And  how  is  provision  made  for  that;  is  it  simply  an  order  of  the 
Bureau,  or  is  there  a  provision  of  law  requiring  the  appointment  of  in 
spectors  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  am  not  aware  of  a  provision  of  law  requiring  the  ap 
pointment  of  inspectors  of  goods.  I  should  say  that  a  treaty  is  in 
force,  and  if  the  Indians  claim  it  they  ought  to  have  it,  and  if  it  is  for 
their  good,  they  ought  to  have  it. 


716 

Q.  Jf  it  is  not  for  their  good  it  ought  to  be  enforced  until  it  is  super 
seded  by  other  legislation  2 

A.  No,  sir;  I  would  not  put  it  on  the  latter  ground.  There  are  many 
stipulations  in  treaties  that  never  can  or  ought  to  be  enforced. 

Q.  We  found  there  had  been  between  the  Bureau  and  Mr.  Slavens,  of 
Kansas  City,  some  difficulty  in  regard  to  a  pork-contract.  Will  you 
state  what  that  difficulty  was,  and  how  it  was  settled  I 

A.  Mr.  Slavens,  in  answer  to  my  call  for  mess-pork,  put  in  a  bid,  which 
was  the  lowest  bid,  and  was  accepted.  When  the  contract  was  drawn, 
it  specified  pork  only;  did  not  say  mess-pork.  When  the  contract  came 
to  be  filled,  Mr.  Slavens  began  to  fill  it  with  mess-pork.  He  put  in  as 
his  first  delivery  200  barrels  of  mess-pork  of  excellent  quality,  as  I  under 
stand.  Subsequently,  pork  went  up  beyond  his  contract-price,  and  he 
found  on  examination  that  the  terms  of  his  contract  did  not  require 
mess-pork,  but  that  he  was  required  to  give  pork.  He  then  put  up  another 
quality  of  pork,  and  the  inspector  passed  it  on  the  contract.  That  is 
his  explanation.  The  inspector  certified  that  so  many  barrels  of  pork 
had  been  delived  by  Slavens  "  according  to  contract."  I  heard  of  the 
bad  quality  of  the  pork  from  the  agent,  and  telegraphed  the  store-keeper 
at  Cheyenne  or  the  freight-contractor  (I  think  it  was  the  store-keeper) 
to  send  no  more  pork  on  Slavens's  contract  until  it  had  been  inspected  at 
Cheyenne.  I  telegraphed  also  the  inspector  at  Kansas  City,  asking  him 
what  sort  of  pork  he  had  passed,  and  he  replied,  "  Prime  mess."  I  may 
have  the  terms  mixed — prime  mess  or  mess.  He  told  me  how  many 
barrels  he  had  passed  as  prime  mess,  and  how  many  as  mess.  When  I 
got  the  information,  I  knew  what  sort  of  pork  I  had  at  Cheyenne;  that 
is,  I  supposed  I  knew,  and  suspended  the  requirement  that  it  should  be 
re-inspected  there.  I  then  found  from  Robert  Campbell,  a  member  of  the 
old  board  of  commissioners  in  Saint  Louis,  the  difference  in  market-value 
between  mess-pork  and  prime  mess,  and  required  Slavens  to  make  good 
that  difference  in  bacon  at  market-rates  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency. 
He  agreed  to  it,  and  the  matter  is  just  now  consummated.  I  understand 
the  bacon  has  been  shipped  to  Red  Cloud. 

Q.  What  was  the  amount  of  the  difference  ? 

A.  That  I  cannot  state  from  memory. 

Q.  Can  you  furnish  it  to  us  '? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  you  have  the  whole  correspondence. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  it  adjusted  at  the  difference  that  is  stated  in  that  correspond 
ence  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  so  adjusted. 

By  Mr.  ATIIERTON: 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  a  copy  of  the  telegram  stating  that  he  had  fur 
nished  the  prime  mess? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  Threlkeld's  telegram  that  he  had  passed  prime  me*s.  I 
think  you  have  it  from  me  already. 

[See  page  592.] 

Q,  I  understand  you  to  say,  in  the  first  place,  the  advertisement  called 
for  mess. 

A.  The  advertisement  called  for  proposals  for  mess-pork. 

Q.  How  did  it  occur  that  the  contract  did  not  specify  the  same  grade 
of  pork  that  the  advertisement  called  for? 

A.  It  was  a  clerical  error  in  drafting  the  contract. 

Q.  Who  is  responsible  for  the  clerical  error  I 

A.  The  clerk  who  drew  the  contract  in  the  Bureau. 


717 

Q.  The  same  error  or  variation  occurred  with  the  same  man  with  ref 
erence  to  the  advertisement  and  contract  for  flour. 

A.  It  could  not  have  been  the  same  variation. 

Q.  Well,  a  similar  variation.  An  advertisement  was  inserted  in  the 
papers  asking  for  proposals  for  furnishing  XX  flour.  If  I  recollect 
rightly,  the  contract  only  stipulated  to  furnish  flour.  Is  that  variation 
to  be  accounted  for  in  the  same  way  t 

A.  I  should  rather  see  that  contract  before  I  assented  to  that.  The 
contract  called  for  flour  according  to  sample.  It  is  specific. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Are  not  the  printed  proposals  considered  part  of  the  contract  ? 
A.  No,  sir ;  unless  it  is  so  stated  in  the  contract.     That  is,  they  are 
not  necessarily  so. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  much  of  the  lower  grade  of  pork  was  fur 
nished  on  the  contract  I 

A.  Yes,  sir.  The  following  is  a  tabular  statement  of  delivery  and 
inspection  of  pork  under  contract  with  J.  W.  Slaveus  of  date  July  11, 
1874 : 


Date  of  delivery  and  inspection. 


Number  of  barrels. 


August  20,  1874 
August  28,  1874 
September  24,  1874 
October  29,  J874 
November  5,  J874. 
December  5,  1874 


65  barrels  pork,  mess. 
135  barrels  pork,  mess. 
200  barrels  pork,  prime  mess. 
200  barrels  pork,  prime  mess. 
200  barrels  pork,  prime  mess. 
200  barrels  pork,  mess. 


Total  number  of  barrels  prime  mess,  600  ;  difference  in  market-values  of  mess 

and  prime  mess,  $3.50  per  barrel  on  600  barrels , $2, 100  00 

For  which  Slavens  delivers  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  free  of  cost  for  transportation, 

100  barrels  mess-pork,  worth  (contract  rate,  $21  per  barrel  at  Kansas  City) 2, 100  00 

Add  transportation  on  100  barrels  from  Kansas  City  to  Red  Cloud  agency  at  con 
tract  rates  ..  91806 


Total  amount  paid  by  Slavens  as  indemnity $3,  018  06 

Q.  And  can  you  state  the  difference  in  the  market- value  of  that  which 
was  furnished  and  that  which  you  supposed  was  to  be  furnished  under 
the  contract  I 

A.  It  is  in  the  record. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN : 

Q.  How  did  you  arrive  at  the  difference  between  mess-pork,  the  kind 
called  for  in  the  proposals,  and  the  kind  of  pork  he  furnished  f 

A.  The  pork  he  furnished  was  prime  iness,  according  to  the  statement 
of  the  inspector.  That  has  market-rates,  and  mess-pork  has  market- 
rates,  liobert  Campbell  gave  me  those  market-rates,  and  on  his  informa 
tion  I  made  my  computation. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  If  it  should  turn  out  that  the  inspector  passed  pork  of  a  lower  grade 
than  prime  mess-pork,  then  you  were  to  that  extent  defrauded  by  the 
contractor  or  by  him  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


718 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  :  * 

Q.  Who  proposed  to  settle  it  011  the  basis  which  was  finally  agreed 
upon  ? 

A.  I  think  I  proposed  the  basis  after  learning  the  difference  in 
marked  value,  and  Mr.  Slavens  consented  to  it. 

Q.  Did  the  proposition  come  from  the  Bureau  or  from  him  ! 

A.  If  I  recollect  rightly,  that  was  not  his  first  proposition,  but  he  was 
brought  to  it.  1  have  forgotten  what  his  first  proposition  was,  but  it  was 
not  as  good  as  that  by  any  means.  I  want  to  say  in  this  connection  that 
I  never  had  any  misgivings  as  to  my  inspector  at  Kansas  City.  He 
was  appointed  on  the  nomination  of  Robert  Campbell,  of  the  purchas 
ing  committee  of  the  old  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  on  his  personal 
acquaintance,  for  the  year  previous,  and  was  continued  in  office  at  my 
request  during  the  next  year,  because  of  the  credentials  under  which  he 
was  first  appointed.  I  never  had  any  misgivings  as  to  his  true  inspec 
tions.  I  was  surprised  to  find  that  he  should  think  of  passing  prime 
mess  pork,  after  {Slavens  had  put  in  mess  pork,  without  consulting  me 
at  all 5  and  when  he  stated  that  that  which  he  did  inspect  was  prime 
mess,  I  had  no  question  about  it  in  my  own  mind. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  find  among  the  recommendations  of  Bishop  Hare  "That  all  beef 
and  other  provisions  be  issued  by  orders  on  the  issue  clerk,  which  orders 
should  pass  through  the  office  in  order  to  their  appearance  on  the  books  j 
that  these  orders  be  tiled  away  for  safe-keeping,  and  the  books  and 
papers  of  the  agency  be  the  property  of  the  Government,  and  not  of  the 
agent."  Does  that  recommendation  meet  your  approbation,  and  has  it 
been  carried  out  as  recommended  by  the  commission  of  which  Bishop 
Hare  wras  chairman  ? 

Q.  I  am  not  certain  except  as  to  the  latter  part.  I  know  I  have  been 
issuing  orders  that  all  books  and  records  belonging  to  the  agencies 
shall  be  retained  at  the  agency.  When  an  agent  is  superseded  the  in 
structions  to  his  successor  are,  to  insist  on  retaining  all  the  records, 
and  the  order  to  the  outgoing  agent  is  to  turn  over  all  records  as  the 
property  of  the  agency. 

Q.  You  have  not,  then,  made  any  order  to  carry  out  the  first  part  of 
that  recommendation  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  that  I  have. 

Q.  We  found  a  very  general  complaint.  Mr.  Commissioner,  in  regard 
to  the  kind  of  tobacco  that  has  been  issued  to  the  Indians  under  the 
impression,  I  find,  that  it  was  tobacco  to  be  smoked,  which  is  the  only 
form  in  which  the  Indians  use  tobacco,  but  was  of  a  character  and  kind 
that  is  usually  chewed  ;  ought  the  Department,  in  view  of  a  proper 
economy,  to  substitute  another  kind  of  tobacco  in  lieu  of  that  which 
has  been  heretofore  sent,  and  which  is  .only  suitable  for  chewing  1 

A.  Yes.  sir.  I  took  that  into  consideration  this  year,  and  purchased 
a  higher  grade  of  tobacco.  I  didn't  know  previously,  though,  that  the 
Sioux  had  found  fault  with  the  tobacco.  I  did  find  that  the  southern 
Indians  in  the  Indian  Territory,  two  years  ago,  when  I  was  there,  had 
found  the  same  objection  to  their  tobacco ;  and  I  changed  that  last 
year,  giving  them  a  lighter  grade  than  I  gave  the  Sioux. 

Q.  Have  you  proposed  to  furnish  them  a  better  kind  of  tobacco  ? 

A.  They  have  a  better  grade  of  tobacco  this  year  than  last  year. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  uniform  system  of  book-keeping  followed  in  the  agen 
cies? 


71(J 

A.  I  have  lately  published  an  account-book,  with  proper  lettering  and 
headings,  and  sent  it  to  all  the  agents.  The  last  went  out  three  weeks 
ago  from  the  office. 

Q.  Is  there  any  penalty  attached  by  law  to  carrying  away  the  books 
of  the  agency  by  the  agent  I 

A.  The  last  Appropriation  Bill  provides  a  penalty  for  it. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  the  report  which  has  been  circu 
lated  in  the  newspapers  that  an  attempt  has  been  made  by  you  or  your 
Department— General  Coweu's  name  being  mentioned — to  cause  the  pay 
ment  to  Mr.  Dodge  of  about  $5,000  for  cattle  said  to  have  been  taken 
by  Indians  from  the  herd.  Will  you  tell  what  you  know  about  that 
in  a  short  wav  ?  I  don't  want  to  prolong  the  inquiry. 

A.  That  clSitn  came  up  in  the  Indian  Bureau  in  the  ordinary  rou 
tine,  and  was  passed  upon  by  me,  approving  it,  in  the  same  way  that 
claims  of  that  nature  had  been  passed  upon  by  Commissioner  Walker 
and  his  predecessor.  Several  claims  of  the  same  nature  had  also 
passed  that  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  and  had  been  settled  by 
the  Treasury  officers.  I  sent  it  in  the  routine,  with  my  approval,  to  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners.  They  disapproved  it,  thus  reversing 
their  previous  action  on  similar  claims,  for  reasons  which  they  gave  ; 
then  it  came  back  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  the  action  of 
the  Board  was  sustained  by  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior.  Whether 
there  was  a  return  of  that  account  to  the  Board  for  further  inquiry  as 
to  its  merits  before  the  final  action  of  the  Secretary  on  it,  I  do  not  know  ; 
but  the  final  action  by  the  Secretary  was  the  action  sustaining  the  action 
of  the  Board. 

Q.  Was  it  true  that  the  claim  was  afterward  presented  to  Congress? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  then  it  was  treated  as  a  depredation  claim,  and  is  prob 
ably  now  waiting  at  the  bottom  of  about  five  millions  of  others  for  its 
turn. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  that  has  been  withdrawn  by  Dodge  ? 
A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Did  you  have  before  you  evidence  which  you  considered  conclu 
sive,  that  the  cattle  had  actually  been  taken  by  the  Indians  from  the 
contractor? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  had  evidence  that  I  thought  was  satisfactory,  and  I 
think  there  is  no  question  raised  on  that  point. 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  question  about  it,  so  far  as  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners  are  concerned? 

A.  Not  that  I  am  aware  of.  The  main  objection  to  allowing  such  ac 
counts,  as  I  understand  it,  is  that  it  is  a  dangerous  practice  to  pay  that 
sort  of  claim  because  of  the  irregularity  and  want  of  check  attending  it. 
The  cattle  were  not  weighed,  and  there  could  be  no  assurance  that  the 
numbers  were  positively  correct.  I  think  the  feeling  of  the  Board  was 
that  that  sort  of  payment  ought  somehow  to  be  stopped.  My  belief  was 
that  the  contractor  was  out  this  number  of  cattle;  that  the  Indians  had 
eaten  them,  and  while  they  were  eating  these  they  were  not  eating  or 
calling  for  the  regular  issue  at  the  agency,  and  that  this  was  the  con 
tractor's  only  chance  to  get  his  pay  for  cattle  wrhich  had  been  of  service 
to  the  Government  in  feeding  Indians,  and  I  was  willing  that  he  should 
have  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  was  equitable  to  pay  it  under  that  arrangement  ? 
A.  Yes,  I  think  it  would  have  been  entirely  so;  and  yet  I  think  the 
Board  was  justified  in  its  action  because  of  the  liability  of  collusion  in 
making  up  such  claims. 


720 

Q.  And  you  found  no  fault  with  their  overruling  it  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  Here  is  a  contractor's  herd  which  he  is  required  to  keep 
within  a  certain  distance  of  the  agency;  the  Indians  know  those  cattle 
are  for  them  :  they  are  passing  by  on  a  hunt,  or  coming  in  from  a  hunt; 
they  haven't  anything  to  eat,  and  they  cannot  get  anything  until  they 
get  to  the  agency.  They  go  to  the  herd  and  take  cattle  before  the  face 
of  the  contractor,  and  sometimes  in  the  presence  of  the  sub-agent  who 
accompanies  them.  He  cannot  control  them ;  he  sees  them  take  the 
cattle  and  eat  them  ;  and  when  he  gets  to  the  agency  he  represents  to 
the  agent  that  they  have  had  so  many  cattle;  and  the  agent  says  "The 
contractor  has  got  a  fair  case,  and  ought  to  be  paid  for  those  cattle  as 
much  as  if  I  had  taken  them  from  him  and  given  them  to  the  Indians.'7 
rlu at  is  the  nature  of  these  claims. 

Q.  In  entering  into  a  contract  does  not  the  contractor  assume  the  risk 
that  his  cattle,  or  a  considerable  portion  of  them,  may  be  depredated 
upon  by  the  Indians  ? 

A.  The  contractor,  of  course,  bids  with  the  custom  of  the  business 
full  in  mind.  If  the  practice  has  been  to  pay  for  cattle  thus  taken,  he 
would  naturally  count  upon  its  continuance,  and  this  risk  would  not  en 
ter  into  his  proposal ;  of  course,  you  have  got  to  stop  somewhere ;  and 
1  am  not  at  all  sure  that  the  action  of  the  Board  was  not  entirely  right 
in  stopping  it  there.  They  were  taken  by  the  very  Indians  for  whom  the 
money  had  been  appropriated  to  purchase  them  ;  the  sub-agent  saw  them 
taken.  I  don't  mean  to  say  that  all  these  circumstances  were  true  of 
the  Dodge  claim.  But  there  are  several  claims  of  that  sort  now  pend 
ing.  A  claim  of  this  nature  was,  I  think,  allowed  by  the  Comptroller  not 
long  since. 

Q.  I  noticed  in  some  part  of  the  evidence  somewhere  that,  in  conver 
sation  with  Professor  Marsh  in  May  last,  or  whenever  the  interview  in 
Washington  was,  you  expressed  an  opinion  that  Saville  was  unfit  to  be 
an  agent  any  longer  ? 

A.  I  should  not  put  it  in  that  form. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  what  you  did  say. 

A.  Mr.  Marsh  expressed  his  opinion  of  Mr.  Saville's  incompetency  to 
fill  the  position  he  held,  from  which  I  did  not  dissent,  but  replied  that 
many  of  my  agents  were  not  large  enough  for  the  duties  put  upon  them, 
and  that  he  must  not  expert  me  to  find  a  man  competent  and  willing  to 
fill  the  agency  at  Red  Cloud  for  $1.500  a  year,  when  it  required  more 
executive  ability  to  be  agent  at  Red  Cloud  than  to  be  governor  of  Con 
necticut. 

Q.  [Reading.]  "And  the  President,  on  advising  with  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  shall  prescribe  such  rules  and  regulations  for  ascer 
taining  damages  under  the  provisions  of  this  article  as  in  his  judgment 
may  be  proper."  Are  there  rules  and  regulations  concerning  the  proof 
of  depredations  prescribed  in  the  last  section  of  the  first  article  of  the 
Treaty  of  18C8,  which  I  have  just  read  ? 

A.  There  are,  but  not  now  operative,  and  cannot  be,  because  a  law  of 
Congress,  which  supersedes  all  treaties,  forbids  the  use  of  any  annuity 
or  treaty  money  to  be  expended  in  payment  of  depredations.  So  that, 
if  that  claim  is  a  depredation-claim,  it  cannot  be  paid.  It  can  be  paid 
only  by  treating  it  as  an  issue,  and  1  was  disposed  to  treat  it  as  such. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Please  explain  the  matter  of  the  Marshall  contract  for  transporta 
tion  for  freight  from  Randall  to  Whetstone  agency,  given  to  A.  H.  Wilder 
in  1873. 


721 

A.  At  the  opening  of  the  bids  for  this  transportation,  the  lowest  bid 
was  by  George  Marshall,  at  $1.12  per  one  hundred  pounds  per  one  hun 
dred  miles.  The  next  bid  higher  was  $1.37.  The  party  making  this 
bid  was  evidently  in  collusion  with  Marshall  5  he  came  to  me  immedi 
ately  after  the  reading  of  the  bids,  called  my  attention  to  his  bid  of 
$1.37,  saying  he  expected  to  get  it.  I  reminded  him  of  a  lower  bidder, 
to  whom  the  contract  would  probably  be  awarded,  but  he  still  seemed 
to  think  that  the  bid  would  come  to  him.  It  was  awarded  to  Marshall 
at  $1.12 ;  he  declined  to  enter  into  bonds,  and  I  found  on  examination 
that  his  bid  was  informal,  and  that  I  could  not  compel  him  to  execute 
a  contract.  I  notified  him  that  he  would  hereafter  be  considered  as  a 
defaulting  bidder  by  the  Indian  Bureau.  I  then  determined  to  reject 
all  bids,  provided  I  could  obtain  a  proposition  lower  than  a  dollar  thirty- 
seven,  which  was  the  next  highest  bid.  I  made  inquiry  of  several  par 
ties  by  telegram,  letter,  and  by  personal  application.  Mr.  Wilder  7s  offer 
of  $1.32  was  the  lowest,  and  it  was  awarded  to  him.  I  believe  my  ac 
tion  was  strictly  under  the  law ;  I  know  it  was  lor  the  benefit  of  the 
Government,  and  I  had  no  other  motive  in  it.  The  fact  that  Wilder 
was  able  to  procure  the  service  from  another  party  at  20  cents  per 
hundred  miles  less  than  he  received  is  no  indication  of  fraud,  and  the 
fact  that  Marshall,  who  had  been  unwilling  to  enter  into  contract  with 
the  Government  at  $1.12,  while  the  scheme  for  raising  the  price  to  $1.37 
was  pending,  was  afterward  willing  to  do  the  service  for  Wilder  at  that 
rate,  does  not  require  to  be  accounted  for  by  any  supposition  of  fraud. 
When  Wllder's  accounts  for  this  transportation  service  came  before 
the  old  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  they  were  disapproved,  and 
will  be  found  in  a  list  of  accounts,  amounting  to  over  $100,000,  reported 
to  the  President  as  disapproved  by  that  board  on  account  of  being 
"irregular"  or  u  illegal."  I  regard  this  transportation  account  of  Wild- 
er's  as  a  fair  specimen  of  a  large  portion  of  the  accounts  thus  disap 
proved  or  rejected  by  that  Board,  and  afterward  allowed  by  the  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior  under  the  discretionary  power  vested  in  him.  by  law. 
By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  There  are  a  few  matters  connected  with  the  first  part  of  the  Com 
missioner's  statement  I  would  like  to  ask  some  questions  about,  one  of 
which  has  been  touched  upon.  I  noticed  in  the  first  page  of  the  state 
ment  you  speak  about  a  letter  of  credit  which  you  gave  me  to  Ked 
Cloud"  Will  you  please  explain  what  you  mean  by  the  term  "  letter  of 
credit?" 

A.  I  mean  a  letter  indorsing  you  as  a  safe  man  to  go  into  his  country, 
and  asking  him  to  show  you  all  courtesy  and  assistance  in  your  pur 
suits. 

Q.  When  did  you  give  me  such  a  letter  to  Ked  Cloud  ? 

A.  If  I  remember  correctly  it  was  the  year  before. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  me  a  letter  of  that  kind  to  Ked  Cloud  ? 

A.  Possibly  it  was  to  Spotted  Tail. 

Q.  You  gave  me  a  letter  to  Spotted  Tail,  not  to  Ked  Cloud. 

A.  You  are  right,  and  the  correction  should  be  made  in  my  statement, 
putting  Spotted  Tail  in  place  of  Ked  Cloud. 

Q.  The  letter  you  gave  me  to  Spotted  Tail  was  in  1873  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That,  I  believe,  I  wrote  and  thanked  you  for ;  but,  as  it  turned 
out,  I  had  no  occasion  to  use  it,  though  I  was  just  as  much  obliged  to 
you  for  it  as  if  I  had  had  occasion  to  use  it.  You  say  in  the  first  para 
graph,  in  speaking  of  the  rations  which  I  showed  you  from  Ked  Cloud, 
"  He  said  that  he  had  not  in  any  way  tested  these  samples  by  compari- 
46  I  F 


722 

son  with  supplies  which  were  then  beiug  issued  by  the  agent."    Did 
make  that  statement  to  you  ? 

A.  Substantially.  I  am  not  giving  your  words.  I  am  only  giving  my 
impression  of  that  interview. 

Q.  Did  I  not  allude  to  supplies  that  I  saw  quite  independent  of  the 
samples  that  Red  Cloud  gave  me  ? 

A.  Yes ;  but,  at  the  same  time,  you  said  that  you  had  not  compared 
them. 

Q.  Did  I  imply  in  any  way  that  those  samples  that  Eed  Cloud  gave 
me  were  all  the  information  I  had  on  the  subject  of  supplies,  as  has  been 
so  often  intimated  ? 
A.  You  did  not  state  that. 
Q.  Did  I  imply  it  in  any  way  ? 

A.  You  did  not  lay  any  emphasis  on  any  examination  which  you  had 
made  of  supplies. 

Q.  Did  I  not  mention  to  you  the  fact  that  I  observed  about  the  flour 
where  I  examined  a  specimen  "? 

A.  Yes;  but,  at  the  same  time,  you  told  me  you  could  not  say  at  all 
whether  that  was  like  the  flour  that  Red  Cloud  gave  you,  but  your  im 
pression  was  that  it  wras  not  good  flour. 

Q.  Did  I  not  say  they  were  both  dark  colored  ? 

A.  Yes ;  and  that  was  all  the  fault  you  found  with  it.  You  said  you 
could  not  say  but  that  it  was  sweet  and  wholesome. 

Q.  But,  so  far  as  I  observed,  without  a  direct  comparison  of  the  two, 
they  were  similar  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  but,  at  the  same  time,  you  said  you  did  not  make  a  compar 
ison  ;  you  were  not  a  judge  of  flour,  and  could  not  tell  whether  the  two 
were  alike. 

Q.  I  said  I  did  not  make  a  direct  comparison. 

A.  I  didn't  understand  you  to  use  the  word  direct.  You  gave  me  to 
understand  you  did  not  compare  the  two. 

Q.  Eeferring  to  this  interview,  you  state  further;  "The  next  morning 
an  account  of  this  interview  between  Professor  Marsh  and  myself  ap 
peared  in  a  New  York  paper,  giving  an  incorrect  and  entirely  unfair 
version  of  it."  Did  that  account  appear  the  next  morning  ? 

A.  That  is  my  recollection;  possibly  the  day  subsequent,  or  possibly 
not  until  a  day  or  two  after.     It  was  on  the  morning  I  went  to  New 
York.    My  remembrance  of  your  visit  is  that  it  was  the  day  before  I 
went  to  New  York  ;  but  I  am  not  sure. 
Q.  Was  it  not  three  days  after  ? 
A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Is  that  the  statement  to  which  you  refer  as  given  the  next  morn 
ing  I  [Newspaper  slip  shown.] 

A.  I  should  say  so  ;  but  I  could  not  be  positive.  The  statement  to 
which  I  refer  was  in  the  New  York  Tribune. 

Q.  That  is  from  the  New  York  Tribune  of  April  26.     Is  that  the  one? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  please  read  the  statement,  and  tell  me  wherein  it  gives 
an  incorrect  and  entirely  unfair  version  of  the  interview  ? 

A.  This  is  not  the  whole  of  what  appeared  in  the  New  York  Tribune 
of  that  morning. 

Q.  You  refer  here,  a  little  further  on,  to  what  I  said  about  the  inter 
view.  Now,  all  I  said  about  the  interview,  in  any  way,  shape,  or  man 
ner,  that  was  printed,  is  contained  in  that  paragraph.  Will  you  please 
read  the  reference  to  yourself  there,  and  see  if  it  is  not  a  perfectly  fair  de- 


723 

scription  in  few  words,  and  if  not,  state  in  what  particular,  even  the 
slightest,  it  varies  from  an  accurate  account  of  the  interview  ? 

A.  By  an  examination  of  rny  statement  you  will  see  I  make  no  ref 
erence  to  what  you  said  about  your  interview  with  me.  I  speak  of  what 
appeared  in  the  New  York  paper  in  connection  with  your  visit  to  me  ; 
and  your  action  or  non-action  with  reference  to  those  newspaper  state 
ments  was  what  my  statement  says  it  was. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  that  dispatch  that  is  absolutely  incorrect  ? 

A,  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  please  point  it  out? 

A.  This  may  be  true  in  form,  but  it  is  false  in  effect,  and  in  the  in 
tent  of  the  man  who  sent  it.  According  to  this  statement,  Professor 
Marsh  told  the  President  that  Eed  Cloud  said  his  blankets  were  not 
fit  for  horse-blankets.  Professor  Marsh  knows  that  what  Eed  Cloud 
said  on  this  matter  was  a  lie,  and  yet  he  allowed  this  statement  and 
others  of  a  similar  character  to  go  for  truth,  and  be  commented  upon 
with  very  serious  criticisms  as  if  they  were  true,  and  all  the  time  with 
Professor  Marsh's  name  attached  to  them  or  associated  with  them  as  a 
sponsor  for  their  truth. 

Q.  I  refer  to  the  portion  in  that  dispatch  relating  to  mylinterview 
with  you.  Is  there  anything  in  the  account  of  that  interview  that  is  not 
strictly  correct  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  is  in  the  same  form  with  the  rest  of  it.  The  whole 
dispatch  is  gotten  up  on  that  method — true  in  form,  but  false  in  effect. 
No  man  can  read  that  statement  and  not  be  impressed  with  the  belief 
that  you  represented  to  me  and  to  the  President  a  most  deplorable  state 
of  things  at  Eed  Cloud,  or  gave  me  reason  to  believe  there  was  a  most 
deplorable  state  of  things  there,  which  was  not  true.  There  was  no  such 
state  of  things.  Putting  all  that  stuff  into  Eed  Cloud's  mouth,  and 
then  indorsing  it  with  Professor  Marsh's  name,  makes  Eed  Cloud's 
statement  a  pretty  good  paper  for  circulation,  and  that  is  what  that 
dispatch  does.  An  editorial  comment  on  this  dispatch  in  the  same 
paper  was  much  more  objectionable  than  the  dispatch  itself,  and  I  in 
clude  that  when  I  speak  of  the  account  of  this  interview  which  appeared 
in  a  New  York  paper. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  mean  by  putting  that  all  on  to  Eed  Cloud  that  I 
based  my  statements  to  you  on  what  Eed  Cloud  alone  said  ? 

A.  I  didn't  say  you  were  putting  it  all  on  to  Eed  Cloud.  I  say  the 
dispatch  puts  everything  into  Eed  Cloud's  mouth,  and  then  makes 
Professor  Marsh  indorse  what  Eed  Cloud  has  said. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  had  no  wish  or  intention  that  the  results  of  our 
interview  should  be  made  public  ;  it  was  merely  by  accident  that  that 
was  the  case.  All  I  said  about  the  interview  was  to  give  in  few  words 
just  what  occurred,  and  for  that  alone,  of  course,  I  am  responsible.  The 
dispatch  was  not  written  nor  dictated  by  me,  and  for  any  remarks  which 
newspaper-men  might  subsequently  make  in  regard  to  it  I  do  not  hold 
myself  responsible,  but  only  for  the  accuracy  of  the  statement  concern 
ing  my  interview  with  the  Commissioner. 

WITNESS.  I  have  provided  in  my  statement  for  exactly  that  state 
of  the  case :  "  When  a  man  has  wronged  another,  unintentionally  or 
otherwise,  two  courses  are  open  to  him — to  make  reparation  or  endeavor 
to  justify  his  action."  A  man  is  often  as  much  responsible  for  what  he 
does  not  do  as  for  what  he  does  do.  You  saw  that  I  was  misrepresented 
and  injured  in  your  name  and  by  reason  of  what  you  had  said,  and  you 
did  not  set  me  right. 
Q.  You  state  here,  "  The  opportunity  given  that  chief  and  his  band 


724 

to  state  their  grievances  was  most  ample."  This  refers  to  May  last, 
when  lied  Cloud  and  some  of  his  band  were  in  Washington.  Did  that 
chief  and  his  baud  have  ample  opportunity  to  state  their  grievances? 

A.  I  should  think  so;  they  talked  nearly  three  hours.  I  got  tired  of 
it  myself.  After  they  had  asked  for  white  granulated  sugar  instead  of 
Havana,  and  named  many  more  grievances  equally  severe,  and  scarcely 
any  more  severe,  the  last-mentioned  grievance  they  could  think  of  was 
that  the  planks  on  their  scales  for  weighing  cattle  were  too  thick,  and 
they  asked  to  have  them  shaved  down  so  that  they  would  get  more 
beef.  When  they  had  got  down  to  that  complaint,  I  should  infer  that 
they  had  ample  opportunity  to  state  all  their  grievances. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  have  more  than  one  interview  with  them  ? 

A.  We  had  one  special  interview,  at  which  their  agent  was  not  al 
lowed  to  be  present,  for  them  to  tell  exclusively  what  was  the  matter 
at  Red  Cloud  agency.    For  this  interview  we  devoted  to  Ked  Cloud,  I 
should  judge,  more  than  two  hours  and  a  half. 
By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Were  all  Eed  Cloud's  Indians  there  ? 

A.  All  that  he  wanted  ;  he  made  up  the  company  for  that  interview. 

Q.  Did  any  Indian,  except  Eed  Cloud,  have  an  opportunity  to  talk  on 
that  occasion  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  several  other  Indians  talked. 

Q.  You  say,  "  No  complaint  was  made  by  Red  Cloud  himself  against 
his  agent  until  drawn  out  from  him  by  the  inquiry  of  Mr.  Marsh, 
whether  he  was  perfectly  satisfied  with  his  agent  T '  Did  I  not  ask  you 
to  put  that  question  to  him  ? 

A.  You  did;  and  I* thought  it  was  an  improper  question  for  anybody 
to  put.  I  was  not  there  for  the  purpose  of  inviting  complaints,  but  sim 
ply  to  give  Red  Cloud  the  freest  chance  to  tell  all  his  complaints  with 
out  the  presence  of  his  agent.  I  didn't  want  to  ask  him  nor  help  him 
to  make  up  a  case  against  his  agent.  I  didn't  desire  to  have  him  make 
complaints,  and  declined  to  try  to  draw  them  out ;  but  in  reply  to  you  I 
suggested  that  you  put  the  question  yourself,  if  you  desired  it ;  and  you 
put  it  in  that  form. 

Q.  Considering  that  Red  Cloud  had  many  times  made  these  com 
plaints  to  me  in  verjr  strong  terms,  was  it  not  perfectly  proper  to  ask 
him  that  question  when  he  had  an  opportunity  to  benefit  himself  by 
answering  it  ? 

A.  Red  Cloud  knew  his  opportunities.  That  was  his  appointment. 
He  had  three  hours  to  tell  his  grievances.  He  had  spent  nearly  that 
whole  time  and  was  not  going  to  say  anything  against  his  agent  until 
it  was  drawn  out  from  him  in  this  way.  It  is  a  matter  of  opinion  only 
as  to  whether  it  was  proper  to  draw  it  out  of  him,  and  I  have  given 
mine. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  the  Indians  of  Red  Cloud's  band  were  very 
much  dissatisfied  with  him  for  not  stating  his  grievances  more  fully  on 
that  day,  and  especially  in  regard  to  his  agent  I 

A.  I  do  not ;  but  I  do  know  that  some  of  them  were  extremely  dissatis 
fied  and  very  angry  with  him  for  saying  anything  against  his  agent,  even 
after  it  was  drawn  out.  They  so  told  me.  Some  of  the  best  men  with 
Red  Cloud  were  Saville's  steadfast,  loyal  friends. 

Q.  You  refer  to  Sitting  Bull  ? 

A.  He  is  one. 


725 

Q.  Do  you  not  know  that  Agent  Saville  has  systematically  favored 
Sitting  Bull  at  the  expense  of  Eed  Cloud  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  anything  to  that  effect,  but  I  should  say  it  would  be 
a  piece  of  good  sense  on  his  part  to  secure  the  favor  of  a  brave,  influ 
ential,  and  true  Indian  like  Sitting  Bull,  and  if  Red  Cloud  was  plotting 
against  him,  to  do  it  at  Ked  Cloud's  expense  if  it  could  not  be  done  in 
any  other  way. 

Q.  Did  you  not,  immediately  after  that  council,  use  very  harsh  lan 
guage  to  me  in  the  presence  of  several  people  in  consequence  of  that 
interrogatory  put  to  Red  Cloud  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  not  in  consequence  of  that  alone.  It  was  on  account  of 
your  whole  bearing  at  that  interview,  which  is  fairly  represented  by  that 
question. 

Q.  Did  you  not  show  great  anger  at  rue  and  use  very  harsh  language 
indeed  ? 

A.  I  was  very  indignant  at  your  course,  and  I  presume  I  told  you  so. 
I  did  use  severe  language,  for  which  I  apologized  to  you  afterward. 

Q.  Had  you  not  previously,  on  occasions,  used  similar  language  to 
me  in  your  own  office  ? 

A.  I  did  use  language  declaring  that  I  regarded  your  course  as 
extremely  unfair  and  discourteous — a  course  very  different  from  what  I 
had  a  right  to  expect  of  you ;  and  this  I  told  you  very  plainly. 

Q.  Did  you  not  use  insulting  language  to  me  in  your  own  office? 

A.  Possibly  I  did.  I  told  you  what  I  thought  of  your  course  as 
plainly  as  I  could.  I  do  not  suppose  I  minced  matters  at  all. 

Q.  This  was  before  I  had  published  my  statement  about  Red  Cloud 
affairs — when  I  was  merely  looking  into  the  management  of  Indian 
affairs. 

A.  This  was  before  your  published  letter  to  the  President,  but  it  was 
while  those  same  attacks  and  this  same  bad  and  unfair  use  of  your  name 
in  connection  with  these  matters  was  being  made,  and,  of  course,  with 
your  full  knowledge,  and  without  any  effort  on  your  part  to  set  me 
right.  I  claimed  in  the  controversy  I  had  with  you  that  you  knew  the 
press  was  misrepresenting  me,  and  that  a  single  word  from  you  to  your* 
friend  in  the  Tribune  office  would  change  it  all.  That  is  what  I  claimed, 
and  on  that  ground  I  demanded,  as  a  matter  of  honor  and  ordinary 
fairness  between  men,  that  you  should  set  me  right.  This  you  declined. 
I  called  your  attention  also  to  the  fact  that  a  statement  which  I  had 
made  to  you,  a  concession  in  regard  to  Saville,  which  I  never  had  made 
before  in  mortal  ear,  appeared  within  forty-eight  hours  afterward,  in 
a  garbled  form,  in  the  New  York  Tribune,  and  perverted  to  my  injury. 

Q.  What  was  that  statement  ? 

A.  I  don't  recollect  it  now.  I  remember  calling  your  attention  to  that 
fact. 

Q.  Did  you  at  the  same  time  give  out  dispatches  to  the  papers  con 
cerning  me  that  were  erroneous1? 

A.  No,  sir;  I  did  not.  I  endeavored  to  answer  questions  put  to  me 
by  reporters  in  such  a  way  as  to  set  the  facts  before  the  public,  in  oppo 
sition  to  the  statements,  which  were  not  facts,  which  were  going  through 
the  press  indorsed  by  connection  with  your  name. 

Q.  Of  the  large  number  of  dispatches  sent  out  from  your  Department 
about  that  time  affecting  me,  do  you  consider  they  were  all  accurate 
and  true  ? 

A.  It  is  impossible  for  me  to  answer  such  a  question.  I  may  not  have 
seen  or  heard  of  one  tenth  part  of  such  dispatches. 


726 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  to  be  meant  by  going  out  from  your 
Office — that  they  were  written  by  your  Department  ? 

A.  I  suppose  Mr.  Marsh  means  respecting  the  Interior  Department, 
or  purporting  to  emanate  from  that  Department.  If  he  means  any  dis 
patch  I  wrote  or  dictated,  I  should  answer,  Yes,  I  consider  it  true  ;  but 
if  he  means  dispatches  that  often  appear  in  this  form,  "  it  is  said  the 
Indian  Bureau  states,"  or  "  it  is  said  at  the  Interior  Department,"  and 
which  Professor  Marsh  himself  cannot  trace  to  any  authorship,  I  should 
not  undertake  to  say  that  they  were  true  or  not  true. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  You  have  got  here  the  dispatch  in  regard  to  the  cattle  examined 
by  General  Bradley,  which  reads  thus : 

Commissioner  Smith,  of  the  Indian  Bureau,  says,  in  regard  to  the  letter  of  General  Brad 
ley,  published  yesterday,  that  the  cattle  spoken  of  belong  to  the  contractor  ;  that  they  were 
sick,  some  of  them  with  broken  limbs,  and  that  they  were  not  issued  to  the  Indians,  and  that 
there  was  no  intention  of  issuing  them,  simply  because  they  were  in  such  a  poor  and  sickly 
condition.  It  asserts  that  Eed  Dog's  statement  was  incorrect,  and  that  Red  Cloud  informed 
him  this  morning  that  Red  Dog  lied  when  he  told  the  story  to  General  Bradley  and  Professor 
Marsh.  The  Commissioner  also  states  that  General  Bradley  could  have  satisfied  himself  of 
this  fact  by  a  slight  inquiry  of  the  herdsmen  or  contractor,  it  he  had  desired  to  do  so. 

You  answer  fairly  the  latter  part  of  that  dispatch,  but  say  nothing 
about  the  most  important  part  that  preceded  it.  Did  you  not  dictate 
that  dispatch  in  your  own  office  ? 

A.  I  did  not,  if  by  dictation  you  mean  telling  a  reporter  what  to  put 
down. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  of  the  Associated  Press  take  down  that  dispatch 
from  your  own  lips  in  your  own  office  ? 

A.  He  says  he  wrote  it  in  my  office. 

Q.  Do  you  not  know,  of  your  OAYU  knowledge,  that  he  took  it  down 
from  your  own  lips,  in  your  own  office  1 

A.  I  do  not.  If  by  u  from  your  own  lips"  you  mean  verbatim,  I  know 
to  the  contrary. 

Q.  Did  you  correct  that  dispatch  when  you  noticed  its  publication 
and  saw  it  was  wrong  ? 

A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  not  see  that  in  that  dispatch  there  were  strong  reflections 
upon  the  character  of  those  three  Army  officers,  as  well  as  on  their 
judgment  and  good  sense  f 

A.  Yes;  I  should  think  there  was — on  their  good  sense. 

Professor  MARSH.  If  you  expect  others  to  correct  dispatches 

WITNESS.  I  had  the  feeling  about  those  officers  which  is  conveyed  in 
the  dispatch.  I  think  they  allowed  Eed  Cloud  to  use  their  names  and 
rank  to  fortify  his  complaint,  without  having  made  proper  inquiry  into 
the  matter  of  which  he  complained. 

Professor  MARSH.  Then  I  have  nothing  more  to  say,  only  this,  that  I 
gave  that  dispatch  on  the  authority  of  the  agent  of  the  Associated 
Press,  who  informed  me  that  he  took  it  down  directly  from  your  lips,  as 
published. 

WITNESS.  He  informed  me,  a  day  or  two  since,  that  he  did  not  at 
tempt  to  take  it  verbatim,  but  that  he  made  up  the  dispatch  from  what 
I  was  saying.  I  asked  him  specially  if  he  could  say  I  dictated  it  to  him, 
and  he  said  I  did  not.  The  mistake  in  the  report  is  a  very  easy  one  to 
account  for,  so  easy  that  to  most  minds  it  would  hardly  have  seemed 
proper  to  make  it  the  basis  of  accusing  me  of  falsehood  without  further 
inquiry. 


727 

Professor  MARSH.  He  informed  me  that  lie  took  it  from  your  lips. 
Q.  The  flour-dispatch,  which  follows  the  beef-statement,  is  in  these 
words : 

It  is  stated  at  the  Indian  Bureau,  with  reference  to  the  complaints  concerning  supplies  fur 
nished  to  the  Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  that  all  the  flour  sent  there  was  inspected 
at  Cheyenne,  by  Major  Long,  commissary  of  subsistence  of  the  United  States  Army,  and 
passed  by  him  as  equal  to  the  accepted  samples.  It  is  therefore  claimed  that  the  samples  of 
inferior  flour  brought  here  by  Professor  Marsh,  at  the  request  of  Red  Cloud,  were  of  some 
old  issue,  or,  like  the  specimens  of  sugar  and  tobacco,  have  been  damaged  by  exposure  to 
the  weather  while  in  the  Indians'  possession. 

Now,  did  I  mention  your  name  in  connection  with  that  I 
A.  The  only  reference  made  by  you  to  that  dispatch,  which  I  have 
noticed,  is  in  your  open  letter  to  the  President. 

Q.  Did  you  not  state  to  me,  previous  to  the  publication  of  that  dis 
patch,  the  same  thing,  in  almost  exactly  the  same  words,  differing  only 
in  stating  that  an  Army  officer  at  Cheyenne  had  inspected  the  flour, 
instead  of  giving  Major  Long's  name  9 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  should  say  not.  I  undoubtedly  referred  to  the  fact  that 
Major  Long  was  inspector  of  flour  at  Cheyenne,  and  that  the  Eed  Cloud 
flour  had  been  inspected  by  him.  It  would  be  very  natural  for  me  to 
make  such  a  statement,  because  it  represents  the  facts  in  the  case  $  but 
I  do  not  remember  anything  about  it. 

Q.  I  stated  in  my  pamphlet  that  the  Indian  Commissioner  was  re 
sponsible  for  that  dispatch.  As  soon  as  I  ascertained  that  you  yourself 
did  not  send  the  dispatch,  did  I  not  state  to  you  that  I  had  already  cor 
rected  it,  and  put  the  responsibility  on  the  acting  Indian  Commissioner 
\vho  was,  of  course,  the  Commissioner  in  your  absence.  Did  I  not  in 
form  you  of  that  fact  before  you  wrote  your  statement  ? 

A.  You  did  ;  but  I  don't  understand  how  by  that  transfer  you  relieve 
yourself  from  the  responsibility  of  having  charged  me  with  falsehood, 
when  you  now  find  that  the  statement  which  you  characterized  as  false 
was  not  made  by  me  at  all. 

Professor  MARSH.  So  far  as  the  published  statement  is  concerned,  I 
frankly  withdraw  any  such  charge,  but  merely  state,  as  given  in  my 
pamphlet,  that  you  had  made  a  similar  statement  to  me  previously, 
omitting  Major  Long's  name. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  beef  contract  given  since  you  were  Indian 
Commissioner  to  a  Mr.  Cox  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  recollect  any.     I  don't  think  there  has  been  any. 

Q.  When  the  Indian  reservation  is  surveyed,  from  what  fund  is  the 
money  for  that  purpose  drawn  1 

A.  From  the  appropriation  for  the  survey  of  Indian  reservations. 

Q.  A  special  appropriation  for  the  special  reservations,  or  is  there  an 
appropriation  which  may  be  used  for  different  reservations  ? 

A.  Sometimes  it  is  special  and  sometimes  it  is  general. 

Q.  Who  gives  the  contract  in  such  cases  ? 

A.  The  surveyor-general  of  the  Territory  or  State ;  that  is  the  cus 
tom. 

Q.  Does  the  Land-Office  of  the  Interior  Department  control  such 
contracts  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say  as  to  the  Land-Office.  The  survey  is  done  under  the 
direction  of  the  Commissioner  of  the  Land-Office.  The  surveyors-gen 
eral  are  under  him. 

Q.  Your  Bureau,  of  course,  has  nothing  to  do  with  that  ? 

A.  Nothing  at  all. 


728 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 
Wednesday ,  September  15,  1875. 

Present :  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman';  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  W.  ATHERTON. 

Professor  MARSH,  and  Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH,  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  were  also  present. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DE.  J.  D.  BEVIER. 

In  reply  to  an  invitation  of  the  chairman  to  meet  the  commission  in 
Washington,  Dr.  Bevier  had  sent  the  following  communication  : 

"GRAND  EAPIDS,  MICH.,  September  5,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Your  favor,  dated  Saint  Louis,  September  1,  requesting 
me  to  meet  you  in  Washington,  D.  C.,  on  the  9th  instant,  is  received. 

It  would  be  extremely  inconvenient  for  me  at  this  time  to  comply 
with  your  request. 

If  I  am  wanted  to  establish  any  neglect  of  duty  upon  the  part  of  the 
Secretary  or  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  then  it  is  unnecessary, 
as  I  have  no  such  information  to  furnish,  but  if  your  evidence  in  regard 
to  the  agent  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  is  insufficient  to  establish  his  unfit- 
ness  for  the  place,  then  I  am  ready  and  willing,  and  I  think  abundantly 
able,  to  supply  such  deficiency. 

The  history  of  my  acquaintance  and  connection  with  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  is  briefly  as  follows  : 

In  March,  1874,  one  year  and  a  half  ago,  I  visited  the  Eed  Cloud 
agency  in  company  with  Bishop  Hare,  Rev.  S.  D.  Ilinman,  and  Mr.  F.  H. 
Smith,  to  investigate  the  charges  preferred  by  Samuel  Walker.  We 
came  to  the  conclusion  that  Mr.  Walker  went  there  to  find  fault,  right 
or  wrong  ;  that  his  charges  were  unfounded  and  unjust,  and  that  Dr. 
Saville,  then  new  in  office,  inexperienced,  and  laboring  under  many  em 
barrassments,  had  honestly  done  the  best  he  could.  Accordingly;  we 
relieved  him  from  those  charges,  and  commended  him  to  the  confidence 
of  the  Department. 

In  September  following,  six  months  after,  I  went  there  again  in  my 
capacity  of  inspector.  On  my  way  I  was  detained  some  days  at  Chey 
enne,  and  while  there  I  discovered  certain  suspicions  circumstances  in 
regard  to  the  flour.  At  this  time  Mr.  Hinmau  arrived  at  Cheyenne  from 
the  North,  where  he  had  been  a  long  time  engaged  in  locating  the  Whet 
stone  agency.  Mr.  Hinman  had  spent  considerable  time  at  the  Eed 
Cloud  agency  and  had  made  many  discoveries.  Upon  comparing  notes 
we  concluded  there  was  something  wrong  in  relation  to  the  flour,  and 
then  and  there  I  sat  down  and  wrote  a  letter  to  Commissioner  Smith 
upon  that  subject,  to  which  letter  Mr.  Hinman  added  a  postscript,  in 
dorsing  all  I  had  written. 

In  my  intercourse  with  Mr.  Ilinman  I  soon  discovered  that  his 
views  and  feelings  toward  Dr.  Saville  had  undergone  a  complete  revo 
lution,  and  he  gave  me  on  paper  a  long  list  of  items  to  investigate. 

We  then  separated — he  for  the  East  and  I  for  Eed  Cloud.  On  my 
arrival  there  1  found  abundant  reasons  for  his  change  of  feelings  and 
opinions,  and  that  Dr.  Saville  had  been  and  was  engaged,  to  put  it  mild, 
in  many  questionable  practices.  To  Mr.  Hinman,  then,  belongs  the 
credit  of  those  discoveries. 

On  my  return  from  Eed  Cloud  I  proceeded  almost  immediately  to 
Washington,  where  I  again  met  Mr.  Hinmau.  This  was  in  October. 


729 

Secretary  Delano  was  absent.  We  together  visited  Assistant  Secretary 
Co  wen,  explained  to  him  our  suspicions  and  discoveries  in  regard  to  the 
flour.  Whereupon  he  immediately  sent,  or  caused  to  be  sent,  a  telegram 
to  Cheyenne,  directing  Colonel  Long  to  be  re-instated  flour-inspector, 
and  directing  him  not  only  to  inspect  but  to  weigh  every  sack. 

I  also  at  the  same  time  wrote  a  letter  in  regard  to  the  Appleton  con 
tract,  which  contract  was,  I  believe,  immediately  revoked. 

I  then,  at  the  urgent  request  of  Mr.  Hinman,  accompanied  him  to  New 
York  to  see  Bishop  Hare,  for  the  purpose  of  inducing  the  bishop  to 
take  some  steps  looking  to  the  removal  of  Agent  Saville.  We  made  our 
statement  to  the  bishop,  who,  with  that  fairness  and  impartiality  which 
pervade  all  his  words  and  acts,  replied  that  he  thought  Agent  Saville 
should  have  an  opportunity  to  explain.  To  this  we  assented,  and  there 
the  matter  dropped. 

I  then  returned  to  Washington,  handed  in  my  report  of  my  inspec 
tion  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  thence  to  my  home.  This  was  early 
in  November. 

As  an  item  of  interest.  I  might  say  that  among  all  the  agencies  I 
have  visited  in  many  of  the  Territories,  I  have  never  found  but  two  or 
three  agents  that  I  thought  inefficient,  and  but  one  that  I  thought 
thoroughly  dishonest. 

In  conclusion,  I  would  invite  your  attention  to  three  things  in  this 
letter : 

First.  You  will  perceive  that  the  Department  of  the  Interior  re 
sponded  promptly  to  the  two  complaints  which  I  brought  to  their  notice 
in  person,  viz,  the  flour  and  the  Appleton  contract.  So  that  no  charge 
of  indifference  or  neglect  of  duty  should  attach  there. 

Second.  Of  the  four  commissioners  sent  out  to  investigate  the 
Walker  charges,  two,  and  the  only  two  who  had  any  opportunity  for 
further  observations,  changed  their  verdict  and  hastened  to  repair  their 
mistake. 

Third.  My  pledge  to  make  good  any  deficiency  necessary  to  establish 
Agent  Saville's  unntness  for  the  place  he  occupies.  This  pledge  I  ani 
ready  to  redeem.  Should  you  want  me  for  that  purpose,  please  tele 
graph  me.  Yet  I  hope  you  will  deem  it  unnecessary,  as  the  papers  1 
have  referred  you  to,  I  think,  are  sufficient. 
Very  respectfully,  yours,  &c., 

J.  D.  BEVIER, 

Hon.  THOS.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman. 

After  the  receipt  of  the  above  communication,  Professor  Marsh  ex 
pressed  a  desire  to  examine  Dr.  Bevier  in  person,  and  accordingly  he 
was  called  to  Washington. 

Dr.  Bevier  appeared  before  the  commission  this  evening. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Your  residence  is  Grand  Rapids,  Mich.? 

Answer.  Yes.  sir. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Mr.  Bevier,  we  have  your  report,  made  as  inspector 
of  Indian  agencies,  and  we  have  your  letter  written  us  from  Grand 
Rapids,  Mich.,  but  Professor  Marsh  desires  to  ask  you  some  questions 
relative  to  the  matter  we  are  called  upon  to  investigate,  and  he  will 
now  propound  his  interrogatories.  I  am  not  aware  myself  of  the  par 
ticular  points  upon  which  the  Professor  desires  information,  in  addition 
to  that  which  you  have  already  given  us. 


730 

WITNESS.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  told  the  Professor  what  I  wanted  to  say 
to  you  all,  and  I  think  it  will  save  time  and  trouble,  namely,  that  I  would 
refer  you  to  my  report  and  letters.  They  contain  all  I  want  to  say. 
I  could  not  add  another  word  to  them,  and  I  think  I  could  not  sub 
tract  a  word  from  them.  I  believe  my  report  to  be  strictly  true.  If 
I  have  indulged  in  any  inferences  or  suppositions,  you  may  judge  of 
the  correctness  or  incorrectness  of  those  inferences ;  but  the  facts  that  I 
there  name  are  all  that  I  could  give  to-night  or  at  any  other  time.  I 
think  that  disposes  of  me  effectually  and  fully,  and  that  my  coming  here 
was  unnecessary. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  It  may  be  possible  that  Professor  Marsh  may  be  able 
to  bring  to  your  recollection  something  that  will  be  further  in  the  way 
of  information  to  us. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Does  your  report  to  the  Department — the  one  which  has  been 
referred  to,  I  think,  in  Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet— explain  fully  the 
ground  upon  which  you  reached  the  conclusion — if  you  did  reach  any 
such  conclusion — that  the  contract  made  between  Dr.  Saville  and  the 
Apple-tons  was  a  fraudulent  contract,  or  do  you  assert  it  to  be  a  fraudu 
lent  contract  'I 

A.  Well,  sir,  the  facts  are  just  as  I  reported  them.  1  may  infer  one 
thing,  and  you  another. 

Q.  Is  that  the  conclusion  you  draw  from  it — that  it  was  a  fraudulent 
contract  ? 

A.  That  was  my  opinion. 

Q.  Was  that  contract  set  aside  at  your  instance  ? 

A.  So  I  understood.     I  don't  know,  but  I  think  so. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  that  you  could  add  explanatory  of  that  trans 
action  beyond  what  is  contained  in  your  report  and  letters  I 

A.  There  is  not,  sir.  I  don't  know  of  a  word  that  I  could  add  to  them. 
I  presume  they  are  very  much  fuller  than  I  could  give  you  now  from 
memory.  There  is  one  thing,  Mr.  Chairman,  in  my  letter  to  you,  which 
I  think  needs  a  little  qualification.  At  the  conclusion  of  that  letter  I 
invite  your  attention  to  three  things  contained  in  it,  and  the  second  one 
is  this : 

Second.  Of  the  four  commissioners  sent  out  to  investigate  the  Walker  charges,  two,  and 
the  only  two  who  had  any  opportunity  for  farther  observations,  changed  their  verdict,  and 
hastened  to  repair  their  mistake. 

I  want  to  say  that  we  changed  our  verdict  only  so  far  as  it  related  to 
Dr.  Saville. 

Q.  Will  you  now  state  to  the  commission  the  grounds  upon  which 
you  changed  your  conclusions  and  opinions,  since  the  date  of  your  report, 
in  regard  to  Dr.  Saville  f 

A.  I  would  repeat,  I  would  refer  you  to  my  report  and  letters. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  No,  sir ;  that  is  not  the  question.  It  is  the  grounds  upon  which 
you  have  changed  your  conclusions  in  regard  to  Dr.  Saville  since  the 
date  of  your  report,  q 

A.  I  have  not  changed  my  opinion  since  I  made  my  report.  My  opin 
ion  of  Dr.  Saville  remains  the  same  as  it  was  then. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  speak  of  the  report  of  the  'commission  of  which  you  were  a 
member,  and  of  which  Bishop  Hare  was  chairman.  In  that  report  you 
have  vouched  very  strongly  for  the  integrity,  fidelity,  and  competency 


731 

of  Dr.  Saville ;  now  you  say  you  have  changed  your  opinion  of  Dr. 
Saville  since  that  time. 

A.  Oh,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  nofc  furnish  the  specific  grounds  upon  which  you 
have  made  that  change  of  opinion  9 

A.  They  are  contained  in  my  report. 

Q.  Have  you  made  a  report  subsequent  to  that  report  of  Bishop 
Hare's  commission  9 

A.  Certainly.  My  first  visit  to  Red  Cloud  agency  was  in  company 
with  the  other  members  of  the  commission,  of  which  Bishop  Hare  was 
chairman.  Upon  that  investigation  we  made  this  favorable  report. 
Six  months  after  that  I  went  there  alone,  in  my  capacity  as  inspector, 
and  then  I  made  an  unfavorable  report. 

By  Mr.  MAKSH  : 

Q.  When  you  went  as  inspector  you  had  a  better  opportunity  to  as 
certain  the  real  state  of  affairs  there  •? 

A.  No,  sir ;  I  had  no  better  opportunity,  because  the  first  investiga 
tion  was  very  thorough  and  searching.  We  devoted  more  time  to  it, 
and  I  had  the  aid  of  able  men. 

Q.  You  think  the  Appleton  contract  clearly  indicated  fraud  on  the 
part  of  Dr.  Saville  9 

A.  So  it  seemed  to  me. 

Q.  You  state,  I  think,  in  your  conversation  with  Dr.  Saville  about 
that  contract,  that  you  noticed  prevarication  on  his  part J? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  very  distinct. 

Q.  Not  direct  falsehood  9 

A.  Well,  I  don't  know  what  you  would  call  it ;  that  would  be  the 
plain  English  of  it. 

Q.  Then  you  consider  him  an  untruthful  man,  based  on  what  you  saw 
at  that  time  9 

A.  I  don't  think  I  would  regard  him  generally  or  ordinarily  as  an 
untruthful  man  ;  but  I  think  just  then  he  was  placed  in  an  unpleasant 
position,  and  he  squirmed  a  good  deal.  His  contortions  were  painful 
to  witness. 

Q.  You  have  no  doubt  he  was  then  stating  what  was  not  true  9 

A.  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  he  was  saying  what  was  untrue.  It 
was  only  in  one  item;  it  was  in  regard  to  the  boarding  of  the  men  in  the 
employ  of  Appleton.  I  said  to  him,  "  You  board  those  men  of  Appleton  9  " 
And  then,  not  promptly  and  squarely,  but  hesitatingly,  he  said  :  "No; 
I  told  Appleton  he  must  pay  for  their  board."  It  was  only  a  moment 
after  that  conversation  had  occurred,  when  I  sawAppleton  passing,  and 
I  called  him  in ;  and  then,  in  the  presence  of  Saville,  without  giving 
them  any  opportunity  for  consultation,  I  said  to  Appleton :  "  The  Doctor 
boards  your  men  !"  "  Yes,"  said  he,  "  I  told  the  Doctor  he  must  ration 
my  men."  That  is  the  only  item  of  misrepresentation.  One  said  one 
thing  and  the  other  said  the  opposite,  in  regard  to  the  boarding  of  the 
men. 

Q.  You  regard  the  Appleton  contract  as  a  whole,  fraudulent,  do  you  9 

A.  Suppose  I  give  you  the  facts  of  the  Appleton  contract,  then  you 
can  say  whether  it  is  fraudulent  or  not. 

The  CHAIRMAN  :  That  is  the  better  way ;  we  want  the  facts  and  not 
opinions. 

WITNESS  .  Then  I  will  read  you  what  I  say  about  the  Appleton  con 
tract  in  my  report  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  October 
23,  1874,  as  follows  : 


732 

APPLETON  CONTRACT. 

I  found  rio  contract  actually  entered  into,  but  the  basis  for  one  clearly  defined.  Mr.  Ap- 
pleton  had  submitted  his  proposition  to  Agent  Saville,  which  the  agent  had  forwarded  to 
your  Office,  asking  your  permission  to  make  a  contract  upon  the  terms  therein  contained, 
and  recommending  the  same  to  your  Honor  for  approval,  representing  it  as  the  best  and 
most  economical  arrangement  for  the  Government. 

The  terms  of  Mr.  Appleton  were:  for  sawing  lumber.  Agent  Saville  furnishing  mill,  logs, 
and  engineer,  $14  per  thousand,  while  the  customary  price  under  such  circumstances  is  from 
$3  to  $4;  for  cutting  and  laying  shingles,  agent  furnishing  logs,  mill,  cut-off  saw, 
shingle-machine,  and  engineer,  $10  per  thousand,  while  it  was  worth  from  $2  to  $3 ;  for 
building  slaughter-house  alone,  $450,  while  both  slaughter-house  and  slaughter-pen  is  sub 
let  for  $180.  For  other  items  and  a  more  full  account  of  this  transaction,  please  see  my 
letter  accompanying  the  Appleton  contract. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  It  is  your  conclusion  I  especially  refer  to  . 
A.  Then  1  read  further  from  my  report : 

The  private  manner  in  which  this  contract  was  let,  the  partnership  of  the  parties,  the 
exorbitant  prices,  the  pains  taken  to  exclude  all  competition,  the  looks,  manners,  and  pre 
varication  of  the  parties,  developed  during  the  investigation,  left  me  no  room  to  doubt  the 
nature  and  character  of  the  transaction. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  state  here,  Doctor,  what  action  the  Department  took  on  your 
report  ? 

A.  When  I  came  to  Washington— and  I  came  almost  directly  to  Wash 
ington — I  had  made  no  report.  I  had  not  my  report  written  ;  I  had  only 
items  for  a  report.  Commissioner  Smith,  I  think,  was  absent.  Sec 
retary  Helano,  I  think,  was  absent.  I  met  Mr.  Hinnian  here,  and  we 
went  to  Assistant  Secretary  Cowen,  and  this  matter  was  talked  over. 
Assistant  Secretary  Cowen  immediately  took  some  steps  to  revoke  the 
contract.  I  went  with  Mr.  Hinman  to  New  York,  and  on  my  return, 
I  think,  I  understood  from  Commissioner  Smith,  but  I  am  not  quite 
certain,  that  the  contract  was  revoked. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  recommendation  respecting  a  change  in  the 
terms  of  the  contract,  still  allowing  of  its  completion  on  some  terms  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  in  my  letter  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated 
October  21,  1874,  as  follows  : 

In  the  morning,  feeling  unwilling  to  stop  all  the  work  then  in  progress,  I  told  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  if  he  would  alter  his  terms  and  put  them  down  to  something  near  reasonable,  and  write 
a  contract  accordingly,  and  forward  it  to  me,  1  would  convey  it  to  Washington,  and  would 
not  oppose  it. 

He  said  he  did  not  like  to  alter  his  terms,  it  would  look  as  though  he  originally  designed 
to  drive  a  sharp  bargain  with  the  Government,  and  if  I  would  consent  to  let  it  remain  he 
would  share  with  me  the  profits,  &c.  I  replied,  saying  that  he  might  change  his  terms  with 
out  unnecessarily  reflecting  upon  his  good  faith,  and  assign  as  a  reason  that,  after  getting 
on  the  ground  and  learning  more  as  to  the  facilities  at  hand,  he  could  see  his  way  out  at 
lower  rates. 

Q.  Was  the  settlement  made  on  the  basis  you  recommended  ? 

A.  No,  sir  ;  I  think  not. 

Q.  I  meant,  of  course,  to  inquire  whether  you  made  any  recommenda 
tion  to  the  Department "? 

A.  This  modified  contract  Mr.  Appleton  sent  me  to  my  residence;  a 
contract  offering  to  do  the  work  at  a  little  shade  less.  I  made  no  recom 
mendation,  except  to  write  this  letter. 

Q.  What  was  the  further  action  of  the  Department  respecting  this 
contract  ? 

A.  I  understood  that  they  had  revoked  the  contract,  and  continued 
the  work  upon  the  programme  that  I  had  suggested  in  a  letter  to  Dr. 
Saville,  dated  in  Cheyenne,  October  5,  1874. 


733 

Q.  What  was  that  basis  f 

A.  I  will  read  from  my  letter  to  Dr.  Stiville,  and  that  will  show  the 
basis : 

Should  Mr.  Appleton  conclude  to  discontinue  his  work  on  account  of  the  uncertainty  of 
getting  a  contract,  in  hit  case  you  will  make  no  settlement  with  him  until  such  time  and  in 
such  manner  as  the  honorable  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  may  direct.  You  will  con 
tinue  the  contract  for  delivering  logs,  and  the  contract  with  Burch  to  complete  the  slaughter 
house  and  pen,  and  pay  him  the  price  agreed  upon,  viz  :  $180,  less  what  Mr.  Appleton  may 
have  paid  him. 

You  will  continue  the  manufacturing  of  lumber  and  shingles,  the  roofing  of  the  buildings, 
the  building  of  the  corral,  and  moving  and  resetting  the  scales,  and  select  some  good  man 
to  superintend  the  work,  and  employ  such  temporary  help  as  may  be  necessary  to  carry  it 
on.  Mr.  Appleton  will  be  re-imbursed  for  any  money  paid  his  hands,  and  a  just  and  fair 
compensation  allowed  him  for  his  time  and  services. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  did  you  mean  by  the  remark,  "bounds  and  limits?" 
A.  I  mean  that  the  items  enumerated  in  that  contract  for  doing  cer 
tain  work  had  fixed  prices,  and  the  last  clause  in  tbat  contract,  by  which 
Mr.  Appleton  agreed  to  do  an  indefinite  amount  of  work  at  a  certain 
price  per  day,  arid  which  could  be  spun  out  to  any  length  of  time,  might 
perpetuate  his  stay  there  interminably,  and  I  thought  his  presence  there 
objectionable. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  you  clearly  understand  Agent  Saville  to  offer  to  divide  with 
you  the  profits  of  this  contract  if  you  would  not  oppose  it  I 

A.  ]STo,  sir  5  he  did  not  say  a  word  upon  that  subject.  Appleton 
suggested  that. 

Q.  Did  you  clearly  understand  Mr.  Appleton  to  say  so  ? 

A.  I  do  not  attach  much  importance  to  that  remark  of  Mr.  Appleton. 
He  was  unwilling  to  give  up  the  bargain.  He  had  a  pretty  soft  thing, 
and  he  thought  the  suggestion  would  mollify  rny  objection. 

Q.  Did  he  state  any  definite  proposition  ? 

A.  Yes;  a  certain  percentage — I  forget  how  much — of  the  profits. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  did  you  respond,  sir,  to  that  proposition  to  bribe  you  ? 

A.  Well,  sir,  I  think  1  said  I  did  not  want  any  interest  in  the  con 
tract,  and  I  just  declined;  something  like  that;  I  don't  remember  ex 
actly  just  what  I  said;  that  was  about  the  substance  of  it. 

By  Mr.  MARSH: 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Saville  have  any  relatives  at  the  agency,  except  his  father- 
in-law,  Mr.  Appleton  ? 

A.  Mr.  Appleton's  sou  was  there;  I  hardly  know  in  what  capacity; 
but  I  think  he  was  afterward  made  clerk.  Saville  had  a  brother-in-law, 
Mr.  Palmer,  store-keeper  in  Cheyenne. 

Q.  Appointed  by  him,  I  believe  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  Mr.  Palmer  had  his  son  with  him  to  assist  him  in  the 
warehouse. 

Q.  In  what  capacity  was  young  Palmer  employed  I 

A.  I  think  he  was  assisting  his  father ;  but  in  what  detail,  1  do  not 
remember.  Mr.  Palmer  was  lame ;  he  had  a  broken  leg,  and  walked 
on  crutches.  He  was  in  poor  health,  and  he  needed  some  one  to  help 
him. 

Q.  He  received  all  the  Indian  goods  that  came  to  Cheyenne,  did  he 
not? 


734 

A.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  And  they  were  iu  bis  charge  while  at  Cheyenne  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Mr.  Bevier,  how  often  did  your  duties  as  inspector  take  you  to 
Eed  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Once. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  inspector? 

A.  A  year  and  nine  months. 

Q.  How  many  agencies  were  subject  to  your  inspection  ? 

A.  Well,  sir  ;  I  went  where  directed. 

Q.  Who  directed  you  ? 

A.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

Q.  Did  you  never  visit  the  agency  except  by  special  authority  and 
direction  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  your  duties,  then — simply  to  inspect  when  he  told  you 
to? 

A.  He  gave  me  my  instructions  as  to  what  my  general  duties  were, 
then  special  instructions  to  visit  certain  agencies. 

Q.  Did  you  visit  none  of  the  agencies  more  than  once  in  the  eighteen 
months  ? 

A.  Other  inspectors  were  engaged  all  the  time,  and  in  inspecting 
agencies  we  would  go  over  a  certain  district.  I  would  go  over  a  certain 
district  one  summer,  and  the  next  summer  another  inspector  would  go 
over  the  same  district,  and  I  would  go  over  the  one  that  he  had  in 
spected.  We  were  changed  from  district  to  district. 

Q.  How  many  agencies  would  you  inspect  in  the  course  of  a  year  ? 

A.  The  first  summer  I  had  my  instructions  to  visit  in  Colorado,  Wy 
oming,  Utah,  Idaho,  and  Nevada.  I  accomplished  the  work,  and  re 
turned  late  in  the  fall  or  about  the  1st  of  December. 

Q.  When  did  you  start  and  when  did  you  return  ? 

A.  I  started  about  the  1st  of  July,  and  returned  late  in  November  or 
the  1st  of  December.  The  law  says  we  should  visit  every  agency  not 
less  than  twice  a  year.  It  was  not  possible  to  do  that,  for  in  the  winter 
it  would  be  almost  or  entirely  impossible  to  go  to  certain  agencies. 
Then  the  next  summer  I  visited  the  agencies  in  Montana  and  Dakota, 
including  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail,  which  were  supposed  to  be  in 
Dakota,  but  by  recent  surveys  are  found  to  be  in  Nebraska. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  how  the  management  of  Eed  Cloud 
agency  would  compare  with  that  of  the  other  agencies  you  inspected  f 

Q.  Well,  sir,  in  my  letter  to  the  honorable  chairman  a  few  days  ago, 
I  mentioned  as  an  item  of  interest  that  many  of  the  agencies  I  visited 
in  many  of  the  Territories  I  have  found  but  two  or  three  agents  that 
were  inefficient,  and  but  one  that  I  thought  dishonest,  which  was  a 
very  good  record,  as  I  think,  for  Indian  agents  or  any  other  class  of 
men. 

Q.  Well,  does  the  one  you  pronounce  dishonest  still  hold  his  position 
as  an  agent  of  the  Government? 

A.  I  don't  know,  sir.     I  don't  think  he  ought  to. 

Q.  Does  he  hold  it  in  point  of  fact,  do  you  know  ? 

A.  I  don't  know.  I  have  heard  that  he  had  resigned.  I  don't  know 
whe  ther  he  is  still  in  office  or  not.  .  would  further  say  that  those  few 
agents  that  I  regarded  as  inefficient,  and  recommended  their  removal, 
have  in  every  instance  been  removed,  as  I  have  reason  to  believe,  the 
Department  cordially  concurring  in  my  recommendations. 


735 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  In  the  case  of  this  dishonest  agent,  as  you  supposed,  did  you  re 
port  your  suspicions  to  the  Department  ? 

A.  I  reported  the  facts  that  I  had  discovered  in  regard  to  him  and 
his  administration. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  subsequent  action  taken  upon 
that  case  in  the  Department  ? 

A.  No  ;  I  don't  know  what  was  done. 

Q.  Any  action  covering  the  treatment  of  these  charges  which  seemed 
to  involve,  in  your  judgment,  dishonesty? 

A.  I  have  no  means  of  knowing.  I  left  Washington  and  had  no 
communication  with  the  Department  afterward  as  to  what  was  done 
with  that  report ;  so  what  action,  if  any,  was  taken  on  it  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  That  report  was  made,  then,  as  I  understand  you,  near  the  close 
of  your  service  ? 

A.  It  was  Jrnade,  I  believe,  about  the  last  of  November,  1874,  and  I 
went  home  within  a  day  or  two  afterward  and  paid  no  more  attention 
to  it,  and  I  don't  know  what  was  done  on  the  subject.  I  had  done  my 
duty,  and,  as  I  thought,  without  prejudice. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  know  how  the  general  administration  of  the  affairs 
at  Bed  Cloud  agency,  such  as  the  care  of  the  property  of  the  Govern 
ment,  the  manner  of  distributing  the  goods,  keeping  the  books,  and 
everything  of  that  sort,  would  compare  with  the  administration  of  aifairs 
at  other  agencies. 

A.  I  think  it  would  compare  favorably  with  some  and  unfavorably 
with  others. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  What  proportion  of  agencies  would  be  inferior  in  management  to 
Bed  Cloud  1 

A.  I  don't  know ;  I  could  not  tell.  The  agencies  under  the  control 
of  those  agents  whose  removal  I  advised  were  not  so  well  managed. 

Q.  Should  you  think  it  represented  fairly  the  average  of  the  Indian 
agencies  you  inspected J? 

A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Will  you  please  read  the  portion  of  your  report  referring  to  the 
cows,  oxen,  and  wagons,  and  state  whether  or  not  you  have  any  addi 
tional  facts  upon  that  point  ? 

A.  I  would  inquire  if  my  suggestion  referring  you  to  my  report  and 
letters  would  not  be  a  sufficient  answer.  You  will  find  it  all  there,  and 
I  believe  the  contents  to  be  true.  If  I  am  mistaken  I  cannot  help  it. 

Q.  It  is  rather  an  important  matter,  and  if  you  would  read  that  por 
tion  of  it,  and  there  is  nothing  to  add,  you  can  leave  it  there. 

A.  Well,  I  will  read  it : 

OXEN,   COWS,   WAGONS,   &C. 

I  next  pass  to  the  purchase  of  oxen,  cows,  wagons,  &c.,  for  the  use  of  the  Indians.  In 
Agent  Saville's  letter-book  I  found  a  letter  written  to  the  honorable  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  dated  August  24,  1874,  in  which  he  says  : 

"  In  accordance  with  your  letter  of  approval  of  June  16,  1874,  my  requisition  of  April  1, 
1874,  I  have  purchased  of  D.  J.  McCann  twenty  yoke  of  American  oxen,  four  and  five  years 
old,  at  $150  per  yoke,  and  twenty  good  Durham  cows,  at  $60  per  head,  and  one  Durham 
bull  at  $100.  As  this  is  to  be  a  basis  of  a  stock  of  cattle  to  be  raised  by  the  Indians  I  have 
thought  it  advisable  to  get  the  best  grade  of  cattle  in  the  market  which  was  not  classed  as 
fancy  stock.  1  have  purchased  these  after  careful  inquiry  as  to  the  price  of  this  class  of 


736 

stock  in  Nebraska,  Iowa,  and  Missouri,  and  I  believe  [  have  got  them  at  as  low  a  price  as 
they  could  be  delivered  at  this  agency.  I  have  purchased  them  in  open  market,  without 
advertising  for  proposals,  for  the  reason  that  it  was  very  desirable  to  get  them  to  the  agency 
in  time  to  get  in  hay,  and  break  some  land  for  spring-crops,  before  too  late  to  do  s'o.  Also, 
several  families  are  anxious  to  have  houses.  I  wish  to  set  them  to  hauling  logs  for  their 
houses,  in  order  to  build  them  before  cold  weather  sets  in.  In  my  action  in  this  case  I 
respectfully  request  your  approval." 

Upon  reading  this  letter  I  remarked,  "  I  see  you  have  been  buying  some  stock  for  the 
Indians..  Where  are  they  ?  "  He  answered,  "  No,  that  letter  I  put  forth  as  a  feeler.  They 
are  not  yet  purchased."  I  also  called  his  attention  to  a  letter  written  F.  H.  Smith,  secretary 
of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  dated  Septembers,  1874,  in  which  he  reiterates: 

;t  I  have  the  honor  respectfullly  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your  circular  of  April  10, 
1374,  &c.  I  have  purchased  twenty  yoke  of  oxen,  twenty  cows,  ten  wagons,  and  six 
breaking-plows  for  those  who  have  undertaken  to  work  this  season,"  &c. 

I  expressed  my  surprise,  saying,  "  You  have  minutely  described  this  stock,  their  ages, 
blood,  quality,  and  price,  and  I  certainly  supposed  you  had  purchased  them."  He  replied, 
"  McCann  supposed  he  could  purchase  them  of  a  party  in  Cheyenne,  but,  come  to  find  out, 
he  could  not."  I  inquired  if  he  had  not  issued  the  vouchers  for  those  cattle.  He  said, 
"Yes."  I  asked  him  where  they  were.  He  answered  he  had  them,  and  then  he  showed 
them  me.  Inclosed  is  a  copy.  They  are  dated  August  20,  1874,  for  $6,247,  and  says, 
"  that  the  account  is  correct  and  just,  the  actually  purchased  were  actually  necessary  for 
the  public  service,  arid  the  price  as  low  as  could  be  procured." 

On  my  return  to  Cheyenne  Mr.  McCann  informed  me  that  he  had  the  opportunity  to  make 
those  purchases  of  a  party  near  Cheyenne,  but,  thinking  the  price  high,  he  had  left  it  open, 
hoping  to  make  the  purchase  upon  better  terms  elsewhere.  Finding  himself  unable  to  do 
so,  he  had  concluded  to  take  them.  It  would  seem  to  be  time  enough  to  say  they  were  pur 
chased  when  they  really  were  ;  to  describe  their  quality  when  seen ;  to  state  the  price  when 
ascertained  ;  and  to  make,  date,  and  sign  the  vouchers,  when  the  property  was  received. 

Q.  Had  Agent  Saville  certified  to  these  vouchers  which  he  showed  ? 

A.  He  had  them  in  his  possession. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  subsequent  history  of  those  vouchers? 

A.  Xo ;  I  got  the  impression  to-day,  at  the  Indian  Office,  that  Dr. 
Saville  had  made  some  purchase  of  cattle  of  Mr.  Appleton  instead  of 
McCann  ;  finding  the  Indians  very  much  dissatisfied  at  not  having  re 
ceived  their  stock,  he  thought  proper,  in  order  not  to  disappoint  them 
wholly,  to  procure  a  portion  of  the  number  which  McCann  had  agreed 
to  furnish,  which  he  did  through  Appletou.  The  contract  required 
McCaun  to  furnish  twenty  yoke  of  working  oxen,  twenty  cows,  ten 
wagons,  and  some  other  articles. 

Q.  Was  the  same  amount  of  stock  purchased  of  Mr.  Appleton,  as 
mentioned  in  this  contract  with  McCann  ? 

A.  I  think  a  less  amount.  Commissioner  Smith  can  explain  that 
matter. 

Q.  You  may  remember,  perhaps,  Doctor,  whetber  McCann  said  the 
factory  burned  up  from  which  he  had  ordered  the  wagons. 

A.  No ;  I  didn't  hear,  except  merely  accidentally. 

Q.  Was  the  price  named  in  these  vouchers  a  fair  price  for  the  stock 
as  described  ? 

A.  I  am  not  a  good  judge ;  but  probably  the  price  was  fair,  if  the  qual 
ity  of  the  stack  came  up  to  the  description. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  understand  Saville  or  McCann  to  say  that  they  went 
together  and  saw  and  weighed  the  cows  which  it  was  supposed  McCann 
would  purchase  to  fill  that  contract  ? 

A.  McCaun  told  me  he  had  been  to  see  some  stock  in  the  vicinity  of 
Cheyenne. 

Q.  You  didn't  learn  whether  Saville  had  or  not  ? 

A.  I  didn't  learn. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  whether  that  voucher  was  ever  left  by  Saville  with 
his  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne,  to  be  delivered  to  Mr.  McCann,  when  the 
cattle  were  received? 


737 

A.  May  I  answer  by  asking  you  a  question  !  Did  you  ever  learn  that  ? 

Q.  Well,  I  think  I  will  agree  to  answer  after  you  have,  since  my  ques 
tion  was  first.  Did  you  hear  from  Saville  or  from  the  store-keeper,  I 
mean  ? 

A.  Not  from  either. 

Q.  Well,  I  did.  I  was  told  it  was  afterward  placed  in  the  hands  of 
the  store-keeper  at  Cheyenne.  Whether  it  was  true  or  not,  of  course,  I 
don't  know.  It  is  for  you  to  say  here  whether  you  have  any  information 
to  contradict  it. 

A.  We  sometimes  get  information  in  a  way  we  are  not  at  liberty  to 
disclose. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  What  are  we  to  infer  from  that  ? 

A.  Well,  sir  •  I  have  nothing  more  to  say  in  regard  to  the  vouchers, 
not  meaning  to  be  abrupt. 

Q.  That  is  not  abrupt,  but  it  is  not  an  answer  to  ray  question. 

A.  I  asked  Saville  for  them,  if  he  had  them.  T  had  a  reason  for  ask 
ing  the  question.  He  said  he  had.  I  asked  him  where  they  were,  and 
he  brought  them  to  me  in  triplicates.  I  put  one  in  my  pocket,  and 
caused  a  copy  to  be  made. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  That  was  in  September  ? 

A.  The  last  of  September — about  the  29th  of  September  ;  but  in  the 
month  of  August,  they  were  unquestionably  in  Cheyenne,  and  he  never 
disputed  it. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Mr.  Harris's  question  was,  whether  you  had  any  information,  if  I 
understood  him,  which  contradicted  the  testimony  which  he  said  had 
been  given  by  Mr.  Saville  and  others  touching  the  purchase  of  those 
cattle  and  the  issuing  of  the  vouchers;  and  you  said  in  reply  to  that 
that  you  sometimes  got  information  in  a  way  you  were  not  at  liberty  to 
disclose. 

A.  I  will  now  say,  in  reply,  that  I  have  not.  Hearsay  is  not  enough 
to  base  testimony  upon ;  therefore,  I  will  say  I  do  not  know  of  my  own 
knowledge. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  from  Saville  to  the  contrary  f 
A.  I  don't  remember. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Your  answer  conveyed  to  me  the  impression  that  you  had  some  in 
formation  confidentially  received  which  you  do  not  wish  to  give  us. 

A.  That  is  just  what's  the  matter.  My  information  in  regard  to  the 
vouchers  being  absent  from  the  agency  came  to  me  in  a  confidential 
way,  which  I  do  not  feel  at  liberty  to  disclose. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  Agent  Saville's  books  show  any  record  of  this  transaction  to 
which  the  vouchers  refer  1 
A.  I  don't  know.    I  forget.     I  don't  think  I  looked. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  In  your  letter  recently  received,  addressed  to  the  chairman  of  this 
commission,  you  say,  "If  your  evidence  in  regard  to  the  agent  at  the 
47  i  F 


738 

lied  Cloud  agency  is  insufficient  to  establish  his  inefficiency  for  the 
place,  then' I  am  ready  and  willing,  and  I  think  abundantly  able,  to  sup 
ply  such  deficiency."  Now,  are  there  any  facts  that  you  are  able  to  state, 
in  addition  to  what  are  contained  in  your  reports  to  the  Department,  that 
will  go  to  show  the  unfitness  of  Dr.  iSaville  for  the  position  which  he 
occupies  at  that  agency1? 

A.  I  give  several  reasons  for  his  unfitness.     First.  His  peculiar  tern 
perament  renders  him  unsuitable  for  that  place.     The  bitter  feeling  that 
is  entertained  by  the  Indians  toward  him  destroys  his  influence  for  good 
among  them. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Do  you  mean  every  Indian  at  his  agency  ? 

A.  Every  Indian  at  his  agency,  so  far  as  I  could  ascertain,  and  I 
talked  with  a  good  many,  lied  Cloud  defined  his  character  when  he 
spoke  of  his  vacillation  and  harum-scarum  way  of  doing  things,  and 
want  of  system.  Then  I  think  some  of  those  acts  to  which  I  have 
referred  to-night,  especially  the  Appleton  contract,  and  I  may  add  the 
flour,  leave  a  well-founded  doubt  as  to  his  integrity. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Hinman  coincide  in  your  view  of  the  agent  ? 

A.  Mr.  Hinman  wTas  the  pioneer  that  led  me  into  this  way  of  thinking. 
I  have  a  great  deal  of  confidence  in  his  sagacity  and  good  judgment. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Now,  I  suggest  that  Professor  Marsh  go  on  with  his 
examination  of  Doctor  Bevier  ;  then  the  gentlemen  of  the  commission 
who  desire  to  ask  him  any  questions  can  do  so  afterward. 

By  .Mr.  MARSH: 

Q.  Mr.  Hinman  then  reversed  his  verdict  in  regard  to  the  affairs  at 
lied  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  in  regard  to  Dr.  Saville. 

Q.  In  any  other  respect,  that  you  know  of? 

A.  I  mean  to  say  that  Mr.  Hin  man  changed  his  opinion,  not  only  in 
regard  to  his  competency,  but  his  integrity. 

Q.  On  your  return,  did  not  you  and  Mr.  Hinman  give  this  informa 
tion  to  the  Department"? 

A.  Mr.  Marsh,  it  has  been  my  wish  and  pleasure  to  protect  the  De 
partment,  believing  them  deserving  of  it,  from  all  participation  in  any- 
thiug  wrong.  I  have  regarded  them  as  being  right  to  the  core.  In  all 
my  inquiries  I  never  dreamed  of  or  suspected  the  Department  of  partici 
pation  in  frauds,  and  have  no  reason  to.  When  we  came  here  we  re 
ported  to  Assistant  Secretary  Cowen  in  regard  to  the  flour,  and  he  took 
prompt  action  in  the  matter.  He  immediately  sent  a  dispatch,  or  caused 
one  to  be  sent,  to  Cheyenne,  and  had  the  matter  attended  to  at  once. 

Q.  Did  you  also  give  the  Department  information  in  regard  to  the 
agent?  I  mean  you  and  Mr.  Hinman  together. 

A.  My  recollection  is  that  we  were  together,  and  talked  about  the 
flour  and  the  Appleton  matter.  I  don't  know  that  we  said  anything  more. 
Mr.  Hinman  was  urging  me  to  go  to  New  York  to  see  the  Bishop  in  re 
gard  to  the  question  of  removal.  He  wished  to  leave  that  matter  in  the 
Bishop's  hands. 

Q.  Of  course,  if  you  and  Mr.  Hiuman  had  serious  doubts  as  to  the  in 
tegrity  of  the  agent,  that  would  be  an  important  point  to  indicate  to  the 
Department,  would  it  not  ? 

A.  Well,  sir ;  I  contented  myself  with  writing  my  report,  and  said 
what  I  thought  was  my  duty  to  state. 


739 

Q.  I  refer  especially  to  information  outside  of  the  report,  in  which 
Hi  LI  in  an  joined. 

A.  As  I  said,  we  spoke  of  the  flour  and  the  Appleton  contract,  w*hich, 
I  believe,  was  promptly  and  properly  attended  to. 

Q.  Did  you  give  any  other  information  about  the  Red  Cloud  agency 
to  the  Department  at  that  time  or  subsequently  I 

A.  Not  that  I  recollect,  except  in  the  report.  I  can'auswer  "  report" 
to  almost  every  question.  I  think  it  contains  it  all. 

Q.  I  understood  from  Mr.  Hinman  that  he  had  given  such  informa 
tion,  and  I  only  wish  to  ask  you  whether  it  was  so  ? 

A.  What  he  said  independent  of  me,  I  do  not  know ;  but  in  my  pres 
ence,  that  is  all  I  can  recollect. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  have  nothing  more  to  ask  the  witness. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  I  am  asked  by  Mr.  Bosler,  who  sits  behind  me,  to  put 
a  few  questions  to  you  : 

Q.  "  Do  you  know  of  any  instance  where  Mr.  J.  W.  Bosler,  or  any  of 
the  persons  charged  with  the  delivery  of  cattle  for  the  contracts  he 
represented,  committed  fraud  or  in  any  way  imposed  upon  the  Govern 
ment  in  the  delivery  of  cattle"?  " 

A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  "  From  your  knowledge  and  observation  as  an  inspector  of  Indian 
affairs  at  the  agencies  supplied  under  the  contracts  he  is  represented  as 
tilling,  do  you  think  he  would,  if  an  opportunity  afforded,  engage  in  any 
frauds  of  the  character  charged  by  Professor  Marsh  P 

A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  u  Is  it  your  opinion,  as  the  result  of  personal  observation,  in  con 
nection  with  your  duties  as  late  inspector  of  Indian  affairs,  that  Mr. 
Bosler  and  his  brothers  J.  H.  and  George  M.  have  discharged  their  obli 
gations  as  contractors  with  the  Government  with  fidelity  and  honesty  f 

A.  I  do. 

Mr.  BOSLER.  Dr.  Bevier  was  inspector  of  Indian  affairs  over  the  dis 
trict  in  which  we  delivered  cattle,  and  that  is  the  reason  why  I  wished 
to  make  those  inquiries. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  you  know  anything  about  Mr.  Bosler's  cattle? 

A.  In  March  and  April,  in  company  with  Bishop  Hare,  Mr.  Hinman,  and 
Mr.  F.  H.  Smith.  This  question  of  cattle  wras  very  thoroughly  investigated 
to  our  entire  satisfaction,  and,  I  believe,  with  full  disposition  to  give  Mr.  J. 
H.  Bosler,  who  was  there  and  who  superintended  the  work,  our  confidence. 
We  all  concurred  as  to  his  integrity  and  manliness,  and  even  generosity. 
We  rode  through  a  snow-storm  with  Mr.  Bosler  and  the  driver,  six  of 
us  in  number,  from  the  Spotted  Tail  agency  to  the  herd  on  the  Niobrara, 
and  we  slept  all  night  in  a  dug-out,  and  examined  that  herd,  and  it  was 
very  satisfactory  to  us.  That  was  our  first  visit.  Last  fall  I  went  from 
Sidney  partly  on  purpose  to  see  that  herd,  and  also  to  see  the  road,  which 
was  said  to  be  a  better  and  shorter  road  to  Bed  Cloud  than  the  other. 
Now,  1  am  not  an  expert  and  I  never  dealt  in  cattle  nor  saw  them 
weighed,  but  the  herd  presented  to  me  a  good  appearance.  I  rode 
through  them  for  two  hours.  I  was  favorably  impressed  with  the  qual 
ity  of  the  cattle.  They  were  uniformly  from  four  years  upward,  as  I  was 
told ;  I  do  not  know  the  fact  otherwise.  There  were  some  cows  and  but 
few  young  cattle.  I  understood  it  was  the  custom  to  have  a  few  for  do 
mestic  purposes.  They  were  pretty  uniform  in  size  and  presented  to  me 
the  appearance  of  a  good  quality  of  cattle.  I  do  not  know  of  an  item 
to  criticise  on  that  subject. 


740 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  You  would  say  that  if  such  cattle  were  delivered,  of  proper  weights, 
the  contract  would  be  fairly  and  honestly  fulfilled  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  fair  to  ask  you  if  you  have  formed  an  opinion,  from  your 
knowledge  of  cattle,  what  would  be  the  average  weight! 

A.  I  could  not.  I  am  no  judge  of  it.  A  butcher  could  guess  within 
a  few  pounds,  but  I  could  not  within  a  few  hundreds.  They  were  full- 
grown. 

Mr.  SMITH.  Dr.  Bevier  used  a  word — that  he  desired  to  u  protect"  the 
Department,  which  I  did  not  understand  exactly ;  how  much  he  meant 
by  it;  my  impression  is  that,  in  his  answer  to  tiie  question,  he  prefaced 
it  by  saying  that  he  desired  to  protect  the  Department. 

Mr.  HOWE.  Because  he  believed  they  deserved  it. 

WITNESS.  I  forget  what  drew  it  out,  but  I  went  on  to  say  that  it  was 
my  wish  and  pleasure  to  protect  the  Department  because  they  deserved 
it.  They  deserved  being  exonerated  from  all  participation  in  anything 
wrong.  I  mean  to  say,  in  explanation,  that  there  were  parties  who 
charged  fraud  and  implicated  everybody,  from  top  to  bottom,  as  I 
think,  unjustly.  If  fraud  and  dishonesty  is  found  here  aud  there,  as  it 
will  be  as  long  as  human  nature  is  as  it  is,  it  does  not  follow  that  every 
body  else  is  participating  in  it. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C., 

Friday,  /September  17, 1875. 

Present:  Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER,  chairman  ;  Hon.  TIMOTHY  O. 
HOWE,  Hon.  B.  W.  HARRIS,  Hon.  CHARLES  J.  FAULKNER,  and  Prof. 
GEORGE  WT.  ATHERTON. 

Professor  MARSH  also  present. 

TESTIMONY  OF  F.  H.  SMITH. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  You  reside  at  present  in  Washington,  Mr.  Smith  ? 

Answer.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are,  I  believe,  the  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  how  this  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  is  ap 
pointed  ?  how  the  members  are  usually  recommended  to  the  President '? 

A.  I  don't  know  how  the  original  members  of  the  Board  were  selected  ; 
nor  do  I  know  from  what  source  my  own  selection  came.  I  was  ap 
pointed  a  member,  I  think,  early  in  January,  1874,  having  never  had  any 
conversation  with  the  President,  or  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  or  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  either  in  regard  to  that  or  any  other  In 
dian  matter.  It  was  a  matter  of  perfect  surprise  to  me.  I  don't  know 
where  the  selection  came  from.  After  the  resignation  of  six  of  the 
original  members,  in  June  following,  the  various  mission-boards  of  dif 
ferent  religious  denominations  were  called  to  Washington,  and  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  asked  them,  severally,  to  recommend  men  for 
the  appointment  to  fill  the  vacancies  which  had  been  created.  There 
was  a  long  consultation  on  the  subject.  It  was  a  matter  of  a  great 
deal  of  deliberation. 


741 

Q.  Consultation  with  whom  ? 

A.  Between  the  Secretary  and  those  representatives  of  the  mission- 
boards;  and,  I  think,  two  or  three  of  the  members  of  the  Board  of  Com 
missioners  still  remaining  in  office  were  also  present.  The  Secretary 
desired  them  to  consult,  if  they  wished,  their  respective  constituencies, 
and  to  nominate  men  who  would  be  recognized  by  their  own  religious 
bodies  as  representative  men,  in  whom  they  would  have  entire  confidence. 
Most  of  the  names  were  sent  in  some  time  afterwards,  and  after  such 
consultation. 

Q.  This  is  a  copy,  I  believe,  or  is  the  original,  rather,  of  the  letter  of 
resignation  of  the  members  of  the  old  Board  ?  [Shown  original  letter  of 
resignation,  of  which  the  following  is  a  certified  copy  :] 

RESIGNATION   OF   THE    BOARD   OF   INDIAN   COMMISSIONERS. 

[Certificate.] 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  20,  1875. 

I,  Columbus  Delano,  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  hereby  certify  that  the  annexed  paper  is  a 
true  copy  of  the  original  on  file  in  this  Department,  and  that  the  said  original  paper  was  re 
ceived  at  the  Department  on  the  sixth  day  of  June,  A.  D.  1874. 

In  testimony  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand, and  caused  the  seal  of  the  Department 
of  the  Interior  to  be  affixed,  this  2Uth  day  of  September,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  C.DELANO, 

Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

Letter  of  Resignation. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

,  187-. 

DEAR  SIR  :  The  undersigned,  the  remaining  members  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners  originally  appointed  by  yon,  under  the  act  of  Congress  approved  April  10,  1869, 
respectfully  resign  the  office  we  have  held  under  that  appointment. 

We  cannot  take  this  step  without  expressing  our  warm  appreciation  of  the  high  motives 
which  have  actuated  you  in  the  line  of  policy  for  the  treatment  of  the  Indian  tribes  an 
nounced  in  your  inaugural  message,  and  of  your  faithful  and  persistent  adherence  to  that 
policy  through  much  opposition  and  in  despite  of  many  obstacles,  and  at  the  same  time 
thanking  you  for  your  ready  and  cordial  sympathy  with  the  efforts  of  the  Board  to  promote 
that  policy,  and  the  kindly  personal  consideration  which  has  always  marked  your  intercourse 
with  its  members. 

Your  policy  has  attained  by  its  success  and  the  manifest  righteousness  of  its  foundation 
principles,  a  position  in  the  judgment  of  the  right-minded  people  of  the  country  which  it 
is  hoped  cannot  fail  to  render  it  permanent,  nor  can  the  evil  deeds  of  individuals  or  small 
parties  of  savages,  or  the  necessity  which  may  arise  to  punish  them,  condemn  the  humane 
and  just  treatment  of  the  Indians  generally,  save  in  the  minds  of  those  who,  on  account  of 
hatred  or  greed,  denounce  whatever  seems  to  interfere  with  their  schemes.  It  is  not  claimed 
that  honesty  and  right-dealing  have  been  secured  throughout  all  the  ramifications  of  the 
Indian  service,  but  many  corrupt  practices  have  been  corrected,  and  enough  has  been  accom 
plished  to  demonstrate  that,  with  proper  organization,  it  is  possible  to  secure  at  least  as 
great  a  degree  of  honesty  in  Indian  affairs  as  in  any  other  department  of  the  Government. 
Some  of  the  points  where  reformation  is  still  needed  were  indicated  in  the  last  annual  report 
of  the  board. 

We  regret  that  it  is  not  deemed  expedient  by  the  Hon.  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to  urge 
upon  the  present  session  of  Congress  the  legislation  we  recommend,  which  would  make  the 
Indian  Bureau  independent  of  the  Interior  Department,  with  an  officer  of  high  ability  at  its 
head.  The  measure  we  consider  of  great  importance  for  the  perfection  as  well  as  the  per 
petuation  of  the  peace  policy  and  its  economic  reforms,  and  we  are  glad  to  know  that  it 
meets  your  approval. 

Whilst  we  do  not  deem  it  necessary  to  present  all  the  reasons  which  have  decided  us  to 
resign,  we  may  state  that,  should  Congress,  as  indicated  in  the  Indian  appropriation  bill, 
which  has  already  passed  the  House  of  Representatives,  continue  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners,  with  all  the  "duties  imposed  by  existing  laws,"  and  requiring  in  regard  to  the 
examination  of  the  accounts,  contracts,  and  vouchers,  that  <lall  such  examinations  and  du 
ties  shall  hereafter  be  performed  iu  the  city  of  Washington,"  we  could  not  accept  the 
duty — first,  because,  under  the  existing  laws,  the  overruling  of  the  decisions  of  the  board 
by  the  Interior  Department  would  frequently  render  the  labor  of  examining  and  deciding 


742 

upon  the  accounts  and  vouchers  as  useless  as  it  is  arduous  and  vexatious  ;  and,  second,  be 
cause  none  of  us  can  remove  to  Washington  City  to  perform  the  dut}r. 

Experience  has  shown  that  a  board  of  Indian  commissioners,  clothed  with  proper  authority 
and  acting  in  co-operation  with  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  but  not  under  its  direction 
or  control,  can  hardly  preserve  harmonious  relations  with  that  Department. 

On  the  other  hand,  a  board  not  so  constituted  and  under  the  influence  or  control  of  the 
Interior  or  Indian  Department,  would  be  a  comparatively  useless  appendage  to  the  service. 
Reiterating  our  entire  confidence  in  the  wisdom  and  justice  of  the  peace  policy,  our  convic 
tion  of  the  capacity  of  the  Indian  to  receive  all  the  civilization  necessary  for  their  welfare 
and  the  safety  of  the  frontier  settlements,  and  all  the  christianization  needful  to  their  salva 
tion,  we  desire  to  express  our  satisfaction  with  the  progress  which  so  many  of  them  have 
already  made  in  this  direction,  and  our  regrets  for  the  necessity  which  terminates  our  official 
connection  with  the  service. 

We  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servants, 

FELIX  R.  BRUNOT. 
ROBERT  CAMPBELL. 
NATHAN  BISHOP. 
W.  E.  DODGE. 
JOHN  V.  FARWELL. 
GEO.  H.  STUART. 
U.  S.  GRANT, 

President  of  the  United  States. 
MAY  27,  1874. 

I  notice  that  the  members  of  the  Board  resigning  give  as  a  reason  that 
the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  would  not  urge  upon  Congress  the  creation 
of  an  Indian  Bureau  independent  of  the  Interior  Department.  I  notice, 
also,  that  these  commissioners,  in  resigning,  say  that  there  lias  already 
passed  the  House  of  Representatives  a  law  in  regard  to  the  examination 
of  accounts,  contracts,  and  vouchers,  requiring  all  such  examination  and 
duties  hereafter  to  be  performed  in  the  city  of  Washington,  and  say  they 
could  not  accept  that  duty.  Now,  as  you  were  a.  member  of  the  board  at 
that  time,  can  you  tell  if  these  were  the  reasons  governing  the  gentlemen 
who  resigned  at  that  time,  or  do  you  know  of  any  other  reasons? 

A.  No  reasons  were  communicated  by  them  to  me  other  than  those 
that  appear  in  that  document.  Being  a  member  of  the  Board  at  the 
time,  of  course  my  attention  was  drawn  to  the  subject,  and  the  two 
reasons  given  in  the  letter  created  some  surprise  on  my  part.  The  one 
respecting  the  Bureau  of  Indian  Affairs  being  made  a  separate  depart 
ment  of  the  Government  I  find,  on  examination  of  the  records  of  the 
Board  previous  to  my  coming  into  it,  was  never  brought  before  them 
formally.  It  was  never  before  them  after  my  connection  with  the  Board 
and  before  their  resignation,  either  formally  or  informally  ;  and  there 
fore  I  say  it  created  surprise  on  my  part  that  it  should  have  been  given 
as  a  reason  for  their  resignation. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  their  having  conferred  with  the  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior  in  regard  to  itl 

A.  I  learned  unofficially  that  the  president  of  the  Board,  Mr.  Brunot, 
subsequent  to  the  last  meeting  held  by  them,  was  personally  in  Wash 
ington,  and  held  an  interview  with  the  President  on  that  subject,  in 
which  he  personally  urged  that  legislation  ;  and  as  that  is  not  testimony, 
I  might  as  well  add  the  other  part  of  it;  that  thePresident  subsequently 
informed  Mr.  Brunot  that  the  plan  did  meet  with  the  approval  of  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior.  In  respect  to  the  other  reason  mentioned  by 
you,  it  is  true  that  a  clause  was  introduced  into  the  Indian  appropria 
tion  bill,  as  it  passed  the  House  of  Representatives,  requiring  the  exam 
ination  of  vouchers  by  the  executive  committee  of  the  Board  in  Wash 
ington.  But  it  is  also  true  that  several  weeks,  I  should  say,  prior  to 
that  date  of  resignation,  the  clause  had  been  stricken  out  by  the  com 
mittee  of  the  Senate.  I  am  quite  sure  the  Senate  had  acted  upon  it,  and 
rejected  it,  aiid  1  know  in  personal  conversation  about  the  time,  with 


743 

members  of  the  Senate  and  House  committees,  I  learned  it  was  not  being 
pressed  by  anybody.  It  never  became  a  law. 

Q.  And  is  not  now  a  law? 

A.  And  is  not  now  a  law. 

Q.  I  find  in  the  newspapers,  under  date  of  February  20, 1874,  an  Asso 
ciated  Press  dispatch,  of  which  I  have  here  a  copy,  which  copy  you  have 
seen,  1  believe  ;  you  can  look  at  it,  [handing  witness  copy,  as  follows  :J 

MEETING    OF   THE    BOARD   OF   INDIAN   COMMISSIONERS. 

WASHINGTON,  February  20. 

The  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  have  been  in  session  at  the  Arlington  Hotel  for  the 
past  two  days. 

All  the  members  are  in  attendance  except  Mr.  George  H.  Stewart,  of  Philadelphia. 

The  special  object  of  the  meeting  was  to  consider  the  Indian  question,  as  it  relates  to  the 
proposed  legislation  looking  to  the  opening  of  the  Indian  territory,  and  the  question  re 
cently  discussed  in  regard  to  a  transfer  of  the  Indian  Bureau  to  the  War  Department,  as  well 
as  some  details  of  Indian  management  submitted  to  the  board  for  their  consideration. 

A  protracted  conference  was  held  last  evening  and  to-day  with  the  Secretary  of  the  In 
terior  as  to  the  general  Indian  question. 

It  developed  the  fact  that  the  views  of  the  board  with  reference  to  Indian  affairs  were 
fully  in  accordance  with  those  held  by  the  Secretary,  and,  after  a  free  interchange  of  views, 
it  was  apparent  that  the  board  are  unanimously  of  the  opinion  that  in  the  management  ot 
Indian  affairs  they  have  the  satisfaction  to  claim  the  most  encouraging  results  of  the  peace 
policy ;  that  they  see  in  the  wilder  tribes  a  steady  improvement,  and  that  a  continuation  of 
the  present  policy  will  soon  result  in  bringing  them  under  perfect  control  and  submission  to 
all  reasonable  requirements  of  the  Government. 

The  cordial  relations  existing  between  the  Board  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  the 
confidence  in  his  interest  in  the  present  policy,  and  his  success  in  managing  affairs  in  the 
past,  would  lead  them  to  deprecate  any  change  transferring  the  management  of  Indian 
affairs  to  any  other  Department  of  the  Government. 

Q.  Will  you  state,  if  you  know,  by  whom  that  dispatch  was  prepared  ? 

A.  This  copy  was  made  at  your  request,  in  the  office  of  the  board,  a 
day  or  two  since,  from  a  scrap-book  left  by  the  late  secretary,  Mr.  Oree. 
The  history  of  it  is  this :  At  the  last  meeting  ever  held  by  the  old  Board, 
a  special  meeting  about  that  date,  in  February,  the  proceedings  were 
all  in  executive  session,  continuing  for  two  days.  At  the  close  of  the 
meeting  it  was  said  that  some  statement  of  it  ought  to  be  made  for  the 
public.  That  dispatch  was  drawn  by  the  secretary  of  the  Board,  was 
read  over  to  the  members  of  the  board  in  session,  some  changes  made 
at  their  instance,  and  it  was  given  to  the  Associated  Press  by  myself,  in 
accordance  with  their  informal  direction. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  this  was  made  with  the  knowledge  and  con 
sent  and  approval  of  the  Board,  and  was  sent  out  with  their  approval  1 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  their  resignation  ? 
A.  The  date  of  that  is  February  20;  their  resignation  was  the  27th 
of  May. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Mr.  Smith,  I  believe  you  were  one  of  the  members  of  the  commis 
sion  to  examine  into  the  affairs  of  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies, 
called  the  Bishop  Hare  commission,  were  you  not  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  directed  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners, 
at  the  last  meeting  in  February,  to  go  to  that  agency  and  examine  gen 
erally  into  its  affairs. 

Q.  Whetstone? 

A.  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone,  I  think. 

Q.  From  information  in  your  possession  which  you  have  been  able  to 


744 

gather  since  that  time,  as  secretary  of  this  Board  arid  as  member  of  the 
board  and  otherwise,  have  you  had  such  evidences  as  to  induce  you  to 
change  your  views  and  opinions  as  contained  in  that  report a? 

A.  No. 

Q.  When  you  were  at  the  Whetstone  agency  did  you  see  the  beef- 
cattle  in  the  contractor's  herd  there  ? 

A.  I  was  present  with  the  other  members  of  the  commission  at  the 
reception  of  a  lot  of  cattle  from  the  contractor  while  they  were  weighed 
and  issued,  and  also  with  them  visited  the  contractor's  large  herd,  some 
thirty  or  forty  miles  distant. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  cattle  there  that  had  been  received  by  the  commis 
sary  or  the  military  authorities  for  the  use  of  the  military  posts? 

A.  Yes ;  I  visited  the  military  herd  at  one  of  these  agencies,  I  am 
not  sure  which,  especially  with  a  view  of  comparing  them  with  those 
provided  for  the  Indians. 

Q.  How  did  they  compare  U  Were  the  cattle  for  the  Indians  as  large 
and  in  as  good  condition  as  those? 

A.  The  military  cattle  were  very  much  inferior  to  the  Indian  cattle 
at  that  time.  The  military  forces  had  recently  come  there,  and  the  com 
missary  stated  that  the  cattle  had  been  driven  from  Fort^Laramie.  But 
they  were  a  very  poor  lot  of  cattle;  some  large  and  some  very  small, 
but  all  of  them  very  poor  and  very  gaunt,  not  comparing  at  all  with  the 
cattle  that  were  supplied  at  that  time  to  the  Indians,  in  respect  to  size 
and  condition. 

Q.  Those  supplied  for  the  Indians  were  superior  both  in  size  and  con 
dition  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  number  that  the  military  had  was  not  large;  I 
should  say  a  couple  of  hundred. 

Q.  You  were,  during  last  year,  a  member  of  the  purchasing  com 
mittee  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  were  you  not  ? 

A.  No  ;  I  attended  the  general  lettings  in  New  York.  There  was  no 
purchasing  committee  at  that  time.  There  were  but  four  members  of 
the  old  Board  then  in  existence,  and  the  reorganization  had  only  taken 
place  so  far  as  to  appoint  the  executive  committee,  of  which  I  was 
chairman.  The  four  members  of  the  Board  were  all  invited  to  go  to  New 
York,  and  I  went  as  a  member  of  the  Board,  in  connection  with  the  an 
nual  lettings. 

Q.  And  you  were  there  present  at  the  lettings  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  how  inspectors  of  Indian  annuities  were  chosen 
at  that  time  ? 

A.  Mr.  Turney  and  myself  were  the  only  members  of  the  Board  of  In 
dian  Commissioners  present.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  As 
sistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  (General  Cowen,)  and  Assistant  Attor 
ney-General  for  the  Interior  Department,  ( WalterH.  Smith,)  were  present, 
and  the  selection  was  made  by  all  those  present.  The  two  members  of  the 
Board  were  invited  to  designate  persons  as  inspectors.  The  matter  be 
ing  entirely  new  to  both  of  us,  we  felt  some  embarrassment.  I  remem 
ber  that  I  suggested,  in  respect  to  dry-goods,  that  A.  T.  Stewart  should 
be  called  upon  to  recommend  some  one  for  whom  he  would  be  willing 
to  be  responsible,  and  that  was  done.  I  think  I  suggested  the  name  of 
Mr.  Ogdeu,  whom  I  had  never  seen,  but  knew  by  reputation  as  the  prin 
cipal  man  of,  I  suppose,  the  largest  clothing-house  in  New  York,  for 
clothing.  I  selected  Mr.  Kobinson  for  tobacco,  whom  I  had  never  seen 
or  heard  off,  from  inquiries  among  probably  twenty  or  thirty  large 
tobacco- houses  on  Wrater  street,  which  I  visited  at  random  for  the  pur- 


745 

pose  of  getting  them  to  designate  some  one  whose  reputation  in  the 
trade  was  well  enough  established  to  be  relied  upon.  I  think  those  were 
the  only  ones  suggested  by  me.  The  others  were  suggested  by  the  other 
members  of  the  commission  ;  I  cannot  state  whom.  I  was  subsequently 
called  on  by  the  Commissioner  to  designate  names  of  parties  who  should 
act  as  inspectors  of  supplies  at  distant  points,  and  being  entirely  unfa 
miliar  with  the  whole  subject  at  that  time,  I  requested  that  wherever  a 
military  station  having  a  military  depot  was  in  the  vicinity  of  a  point  of 
reception  for  Indian  goods,  the  War  Department  should  be  called  upon 
to  direct  that  commissary  to  inspect  the  Indian  goods,  which  I  think 
was  done  in  each  instance. 

Q.  Was  your  attention  or  the  attention  of  your  Board  ever  called  to 
the  fact  of  the  treaty  provision  for  the  appointment  of  such  an  officer 
by  the  President? 

A.  I  don't  think  the  attention  of  the  Board  was  ever  formally  called 
directly  to  this  treaty  provision,  nor  had  I  the  impression  until  now 
that  it  covered  anything,  beyond  the  direction  that  an  Army  officer 
should  be  present  at  the  distribution  of  annuity-goods. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  You  referred  a  few  moments  since  to  a  report  prepared,  I  think, 
as  you  say,  by  yourself. 

A.  By  the  secretary  of  the  Board  at  that  time,  Mr.  Cree. 

Q.  Which,  you  say,  expressed  at  that  time  the  sentiments  of  the 
board,  as  appears  upon  the  face  of  that  dispatch  ? 

A.  I  stated  it  was  prepared  by  their  direction,  and  informally  assented 
to  after  being  read  and  revised,  all  the  members  being  present. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  produced  such  a  change  in  the  opinions  of  the 
members  of  that  Board  from  February  to  May  as  to  cause  them  to  resign 
their  commission,  or,  at  least,  so  many  to  resign  their  position  on  that 
Board  in  the  May  following  ? 

A.  I  have  no  information  on  that  subject  which  would  be  more  than 
the  merest  inference.  1  know  what  were  the  official  transactions  be 
tween  the  Board  of  Commissioners  and  the  executive  committee  of  the 
Board  of  Commissioners  and  the  Indian  Department ;  and  think  1  could 
safely  say  that  no  new  question  arose  after  that  time  about  which  any 
friction  occurred. 

Q.  You  will  notice  in  that  dispatch  that  the  board  had  a  consulta 
tion  at  that  time  about  the  transfer  of  the  Indian  Bureau  to  the  War 
Department. 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  that  result,  so  far  as  you  know,  from  any  want  of  confidence 
on  the  part  of  the  Board  in  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  Board  were  as  unanimously  and  strongly  in  opposi 
tion  to  that  transfer  as  it  would  be  possible  for  men  to  be.  The  Board 
was  called  together  mainly  in  consequence  of  what  seemed  to  be  a  very 
strong  effort  made  in  Congress  to  procure  the  transfer  to  the  War  De 
partment,  and  for  the  purpose  of  considering  what  measures  they  could 
take  to  defeat  the  transfer. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  you  to  say  the  Board  was  in  favor  of  separat 
ing  the  Indian  Bureau  from  the  Interior  Department,  by  creating  out  of 
it  an  independent  Department  of  the  Government? 

A.  That  matter  is  referred  to  in  the  letter  of  resignation.  My  state 
ment  was  that  it  never  came  before  the  Board  for  consideration  in  any 
shape  or  form. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  the  President  of  the  United  States,  so  far 


746 

as  yon  learned  from  mere  rumor,  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  were 
both  in  favor  of  the  separation  of  the  Indian  Bureau  from  the  Interior 
Department.  Can  you,  then,  account  for  a  body  so  respectable  as  the 
Board  of  Commissioners  placing  their  resignation  upon  their  inability  to 
accomplish  that  result  when  they  had  influence  at  that  time  in  favor  ot 
their  position  ? 

A.  No;  it  seems  to  me  impossible  that  they  could  really  have  given 
that  a  serious  consideration  in  determining  their  resignation. 

Q.  May  not  that  have  been  the  subject  of  discussion  frequently  be 
tween  them  before  you  became  a  member  of  that  Board  ? 

A.  Informally  it  may  have.  I  have  the  records  of  the  Board  in  my 
office,  and  I  examined  them  to  ascertain  whether  it  ever  was  so  formally. 

Q.  Well,  so  far  as  it  became  the  subject  of  informal  discussion  in  the 
Board,  what  was  the  leading  view  taken  of  the  reason  why  there  should 
be  this  separation  of  the  Indian  Department  from  the  Interior  Depart 
ment !  Was  it  founded  upon  a  want  of  confidence  in  the  Secretary  of 
the  Interior  f 

A.  I  heard  very  little  informal  conversation  on  that  subject.  The 
reasons  given  in  that  conversation  were  mainly  the  impossibility  of 
getting  for  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  with  the  small  salary  and 
subordinate  position  held  by  him,  a  man  of  the  ability  which,  in  their 
judgment,  was  required  to  be  at  the  head  of  so  important  a  branch  of 
the  service.  The  opinion  was  expressed  that  there  should  be  no  di 
vided  lesponsibility  ;  that  the  head  of  the  Indian  Department  should  be 
responsible  for  tlie  conduct  of  the  Indian  service,  and  that  he  should 
hold  such  a  position  as  would  command  the  service  of  a  very  able  man 
for  it.  I  never  heard  any  want  of  confidence  in  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  given  as  a  reason  for  that  proposed  change,  directly' or  indi 
rectly. 

Q.  Well,  was  there  not  a  great  deal  of  dissatisfaction  created  in  that 
Board  by  the  fact  that  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  had  paid  or  ordered 
to  be  paid  half  a  million  of  accounts  that  the  Board  had  rejected  for 
reasons  satisfactory  to  them  "I 

A.  That  question  is  pretty  fully  discussed  in  the  annual  report  of  the 
Board  for  1873,  in  which  dissatisfaction  is  expressed  and  the  condition 
of  the  minds  of  the  members  of  the  board  more  clearly  and  fully  ex 
pressed,  probably,  than  it  would  be  possible  i'or  me  to  state  it  now. 

Q.  You  refer  us  to  the  report,  then,  as  an  answer  to  that  question  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  the  report  was  not  published  until  February. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge,  as  a  member  or  secretary  of  the  Board, 
of  any  unfairness  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  in  the  award  of  con 
tracts  for  Indian  supplies  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  On  the  contrary,  the  Secretary  has  apparently  studiously 
kept  aloof  from  participating  in  or  interfering  with  the  awards. 

Q.  You  have  said  already  you  have  never,  since  the  report  in  which 
you  concurred  with  Bishop  Hare  in  1873,  had  any  reason  to  change  the 
opinion  which  you  there  expressed  in  regard  to  the  management  of  that 
agency,  or  the  conduct  of  the  agent. 

A.  No;  I  did  not  say  that.  I  think  the  answer  did  not  cover  so  much 
ground  as  that. 

Q.  I  put  the  question  now  in  this  form  :  Has  anything  occurred  since 
athe  date  of  that  report  which  has  modified  or  changed  to  any  extent 
the  opinions  which  you  formed  and  expressed  as  to  the  management  of 
the  lied  Cloud  agency  and  the  honest  administration  of  the  agent? 

A.  Nothing  that  I  know  officially.  In  common  with  the  public,  my 
mind  has  been  a  good  deal  disturbed  by  the  newspaper  and  other  re- 


747 

ports  of  charges.  I  have  been  waiting  anxiously  for  the  verdict  of  this 
commission  on  that  subject.  I  don't  think  I  have  any  information 
which  you  have  not  in  a  great  deal  fuller  and  more  reliable  form. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  opportunity  personally,  since  the  date  of  the 
report,  of  forming  an  opinion  based  upon  any  facts  connected  with  the 
agency  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  have,  except  in  the  mere  routine  business  of  the 
office,  which  has  been  in  the  ordinary  way.  I  have  seen  the  agent  and 
conversed  with  him,  and  have  seen  a  good  many  persons  who  have  been 
there,  and  I  stopped  a  day  or  two  at  Cheyenne  on  my  way  to  the  Pacific 
last  fall  ;  was  in  Nebraska  last  spring,  and  heard  a  great  many  rumors 
which  tended  to  unsettle  my  mind,  but  nothing  in  regard  to  which  I 
would  be  justified  in  forming  an  opinion  one  way  or  the  other. 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  any  purchases  were  made  of  blankets  of 
the  Mission  Woolen  Mills  in  California  within  the  last  twelve  mouths? 

A.  No,  I  cannot.  The  contract  was  made  summer  before  last,  by  Mr. 
J.  V.  Farewell,  of  the  purchasing-committee  of  this  Board,  with  the  Mis 
sion  Mills,  for  blankets,  clothing,  and  other  articles,  for  the  Indian  service 
on  the  Pacific  coast.  In  connection  with  Mr.  J.  D.  Lang,  a  member  of 
the  board,  I  visited  the  Pacific  coast  last  fall,  at  the  request  of  the  De 
partment,  for  the  purpose  of  attending  to  such  purchases  as  were  re 
quired.  The  contract  of  Mr.  Farewell  with  the  Mission  Mills  for  most  of 
the  articles  covered  amounts  sufficient  to  meet  all  the  requirements  of  the 
service  for  that  year,  and  we  made  no  contracts  for  these  articles,  but  di 
rected  the  local  inspector  tor  any  articles  in  regard  to  which  excess  might 
be  required  to  supply  them  by  extending  the  Farewell  contracts.  In 
respect  to  the  blankets,  however,  I  think  that  was  riot  done.  The  Fare 
well  contract  covered,  I  think,  nearly  all  the  blankets  required  for  that 
year,  and,  as  I  have  learned  since,  the  balance  of  them  were  purchased 
by  the  inspector  at  San  Francisco  of  another  party. 

Q.  Well,  have  any  blankets  been  bought  from  the  Mission  Woolen 
Mills  of  California  this  year  for  the  use  of  the  Indian  tribes? 

A.  The  contracts  this  year  were  let  after  advertisement  by  Mr.  Bars- 
tow,  of  the  Board  of  Commissioners.  I  have  never  seen  the  awards, 
but  my  recollection  is  that  the  blankets  were  awarded  to  the  Mission 
Mills.' 

Q.  Have  you  seen  a  statement  in  the  papers  that  the  agent  of  the 
Mission  Woolen  Mills  of  California,  when  recently  in  this  city,  said  that 
the  person  who  was  sent  to  California  to  purchase  blankets  for  the  In 
dians,  made  that  company  pay  him  $1,200  in  gold  before  he  would 
make  the  purchase  of  blankets  ? 

A.  I  have  seen  that  statement,  and  have  written  to  San  Francisco  to 
ascertain,  if  possible,  to  what  it  refers.  I  have  not  myself  the  remotest- 
idea. 

Q.  You  have  no  knowledge,  then,  of  any  such  transaction  ? 

A.  No,  sir;  there  was  no  possibility  of  it;  it  had  no  truth  in  it,  at 
any  rate,  in  reference  to  any  transaction  of  last  year,  because  there  was 
no  transaction  with  the  Mission  Mills  on  which  any  such  matter  could 
have  possibly  been  based.  I  don't  suppose  the  entire  purchase  about 
which  we  had  any  discretion  amounted  to  $1,000,  probably  not  $500. 
It  was  merely  the  direction  of  the  agent  to  extend  the  old  contracts  for 
any  small  supplies  that  might  be  required  of  any  particular  articles. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  the  clothing  of  the  Pawnee  Indians  has  been 
purchased  this  year,  whether  by  contract  or  in  open  market? 

A.  Yes ;  I  know  how  it  has  been  purchased,  but  a  statement  would 
be  more  satisfactory  if  I  should  make  one  giving  the  entire  purchase 
lor  the  Pawnee  Nation. 


748 

Q.  Well,  sir,  make  your  own  answer. 

A.  During  the  last  season,  the  Pawnee  Nation,  as  I  understand,  with 
out  the  consent  of  the  Department,  (E  am  not  sure  about  that,  however,; 
left  their  agency  in  Nebraska  and  removed  suddenly  to  the  Indian  Terri 
tory,  were  absent  on  the  plains  during  the  winter  on  a  buffalo  hunt. 
About  two  or  three  days,  perhaps,  before  the  adjournment  of  Congress, 
they  returned,  and  the  statement  en  me  to  Washington  that  they  were 
there,  in  the  neighborhood  of  2,000  of  them,  with  out"  food,  without  cloth 
ing,  shelter,  or  any  provision  for  their  support.  Congress  adjourned 
without  making  any  provision  for  them.  After  the  adjournment  (I  state 
now  from  official  records  in  my  possession)  in  consultation  between  the 
President,  the  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs,  the  President  directed  that  provision  should  be  made  if 
possible  lor  their  support,  until  an  appropriation  by  law  should  be  avail 
able.  Later  on  in  the  spring,  in  connection  with  Commissioner  Eoberts, 
one  of  the  Indian  Commissioners,  and  a  member  of  the  Executive  Com 
mittee  of  the  Society  of  Friends,  under  whose  care  those  Indians  were,  I 
was  requested  by  the  Department  to  go  to  the  West  and  see  what  pro 
vision  could  be  made.  The  Secretary  of  the  Interior  wrote  a  letter  on 
the  subject,  which  I  can  furnish  you  if  you  desire,  in  which  he  stated  the 
facts  that  Congress  had  made  no  appropriation,  that  no  purchases  could 
be  made  for  which  the  Government  could  be  held  responsible,  directly 
or  indirectly,  but  if  persons  could  be  found  who  were  willing  to  relieve 
those  suffering  people,  depending  upon  the  justice  of  a  Christian  govern 
ment — I  think  that  was  about  the  expression — well  and  good.  Mr.  Rob 
erts  and  myself  spent  a  great  deal  of  time,  a  great  deal  of  travel,  and 
a  great  deal  of  effort,  very  embarrassing  and  discouraging  effort,  in  get 
ting  all  sorts  of  supplies  for  them. 

Q.  Then,  you  made  the  purchase  relying  on  the  generosity  of  the  Gov 
ernment  to  sanction  the  whole  proceeding  J? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  may  state,  Mr.  Smith,  what  were  the  prices  you  had  to  pay 
for  those  articles,  under  the  circumstances. 

A.  The  price  for  every  description  of  purchase  made  was  consider 
ably  above  that  for  which  the  articles  could  have  been  obtained  for 
cash,  and  it  was  very  difficult,  indeed,  to  find  anybody  who  would  fur 
nish  the  supplies  required  for  any  price.  In  respect  to  clothing,  dry 
goods,  and  two  or  three  other  articles,  they  were  the  last  provided  for  ; 
we  obtained  them  from  the  successful  bidders  in  the  New  York  letting. 
We  had  considerable  difficulty  in  inducing  the  parties  in  each  case  to 
supply  the  goods,  but  we  had  become  perfectly  discouraged  and  tired, 
and  we  urged  that  inasmuch  as  they  had  large  contracts  with  the  Gov 
ernment  for  cash,  that  they  could  afford  to  furnish  the  comparatively 
small  amounts  required  for  these  people,  and  take  their  chances  for  their 
pay. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Complete  the  history  ;  it  is  all  new  to  me.  State  what  was  the 
amount  of  the  purchase  for  clothing,  and  what  was  the  advance  above 
contract  prices,  if  you  remember. 

A.  I  cannot  state  with  any  precision.  I  should  say  the  amount  was 
from  five  to  eight  thousand  dollars,  and  that  the  advance  was  about 
twenty-five  per  cent.  The  estimate  made  was  that  the  parties  would 
have  to  wait  at  least  a  year  and  a  quarter.  Supposing  Congress  made 
an  appropriation,  it  would  be  in  a  deficiency  bill  about  the  close  of  the 
next  session  of  Congress. 


749 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Did  you  find  in  the  West  disinclination  on  the  part  of  persons  to 
furnish  those  goods  on  account  of  the  statement  that  considerable 
numbers  of  vouchers  were  held  in  the  West  depending  for  their  payment 
upon  deficiency  appropriations,  which  have  been  a  long  time  delayed? 

A.  That  objection  was  made  by  parties  who  have  been  in  the  habit  of 
dealing  with  the  Government  generally.  In  Saint  Louis,  for  instance,  we 
called  in  the  first  place  upon  Mr.  Robert  Campbell,  formerly  a  member 
of  the  board,  and  known  as  a  man  having  an  exceedingly  large  business 
acquaintance  and  experience  in  that  city.  We  laid  the  case  fully  before 
him  and  asked  his  assistance  in  obtaining  some  of  those  articles  in  Saint 
Louis.  We  had  a  very  long  consultation  with  him,  the  result  of  which 
was  that  he  expressed  the  opinion,  in  the  most  positive  manner,  that  it 
would  be  impossible  for  us  to  make  those  purchases  at  any  price,  and 
he  gave,  I  recollect,  among  others,  the  reason  you  state. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Smith,  I  want  to  ask  you  in  regard  to  this :  Professor 
Marsh  says  that  "  F.  H.  Smith,  N.  J.  Turney,  and  G.  D.  Long,  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  assisted  in  making  purchases  of  annuity 
goods  and  retained  no  samples  by  which  the  character  of  their  purchases 
could  be  subsequently  tested  and  published  no  report  of  their  action." 
Is  that  true  f 

A.  Whatever  report  was  published  is  in  the  body  of  the  report  of  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  of  last  year.  It  is  true  that  Mr.  Turney 
and  myself  were  present  during  those  lettings  as  the  only  represent 
atives  of  the  Indian  Commissioners.  It  is  true,  as  I  have  stated,  that 
the  whole  thing  was  perfectly  new  to  me,  both  the  prices,  the  articles,  the 
combinations  of  parties  who  had  been  before  engaged  in  contracts,  and 
everything  about  it. 

Q.  Did  you  retain  no  samples  of  the  purchase  ? 

A.  I  don't  know  whether  they  were  retained  or  not.  I  was  in  New 
York  for  three  or  four  days  during  the  lettings,  but  was  not  aware  at 
the  time  that  I  had  any  duty  to  perform  in  connection  with  the  samples. 

Q.  Is  there  any  law  or  regulation  of  the  Department  or  of  your  Board 
that  provides  for  how  these  samples  shall  be  retained,  and  by  whom  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  My  recollection  is  that  the  Department  followed  what 
had  been  the  custom  before  that  time  of  sending  the  samples  forward  to 
the  inspectors,  who  were  to  receive  the  goods  at  the  other  end  of  the 
line,  to  enable  them  to  judge  whether  proper  goods  were  delivered  or 
not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  inspectors  who  inspected  at  New  York 
retained  samples  1 

A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  of  any  law  or  regulation  that  required  you  to  pub 
lish  a  report  of  your  action  in  those  purchases? 

A.  No,  sir ;  the  purchasing  committee  of  the  board  prior  to  that  time 
had  a  custom  of  publishing  a  report  of  their  operations  with  the  annual 
report  of  the  board.  For  the  main  portion  of  that  year  the  purchasing 
committee  of  the  board  consisted  exclusively  of  members  who  had  dis 
continued  their  connection  and  left  no  report  or  record  of  their  proceed 
ings.  At  this  time  there  was  no  purchasing  committee.  The  board  had 
not  re  organized  to  the  extent  of  appointing  a  purchasing  committee,  and 
as  a  matter  of  course,  there  wras  no  report  of  a  purchasing  committee, 
and  the  office  which  any  members  of  the  board  performed  in  that  regard 
was  so  inconsiderable,  it  was  not  deemed  advisable  to  make  a  separate 
report  on  that  subject.  In  ausyer  directly  to  your  question,  I  will  say 
I  am  not  aware  of  any  law  requiring  the  publishing  of  any  such  report. 


750 

Q.  Can  you  state  whether  the  purchasing  committees  previous  to  that 
time  had  made  any  written  report  of  their  action  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  had  been  their  custom,  but  as  I  stated,  the  members 
of  the  board  constituting  the  purchasing  committee  for  the  main  portion 
of  the  year  had  resigned  their  positions  as  members  of  the  board,  and 
left  no  records  from  which  to  make  up  such  a  report. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  You  stated,  Mr.  Smith,  that  when  you  were  at  Ked  ("loud  agency 
the  cattle  you  saw  in  the  hands  of  the  military  were  much  inferior  to 
the  cattle  you  saw  issued  to  the  Indians.  Do  you  know  where  those 
cattle  that  you  saw  in  the  hands  of  the  military  came  from  ? 

A.  I  remember  asking  that  question  from  the  commissary,  and  also 
the  price  5  but  I  cannot  recall  his  answer  as  to  where  they  came  from.  I 
remember  he  said  he  gave  $40  apiece  for  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  these  cattle  were  not  borrowed  of  the  agent, 
and  came  out  of  the  agency  herd  ? 

A.  All  I  know  is  the  statement  of  the  commissary,  who  said  he  pur 
chased  them  before  the  militar}'  moved  up,  and  he  gave  $40  apiece  for 
them . 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  what  he  said  there  concerning  the 
military,  on  their  first  arrival,  borrowing  cattle  of  the  agent  from  the 
agency-herd,  and  subsequently  returning  them  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  I  do.  It  is  possible  that  I  may  have  heard  that  fact, 
if  it  is  a  fact.  I  don't  recollect  it  now. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  that  these  cattle  you  sawT  in  the  hands  of  the  mili 
tary  were  not  taken  from  the  agency-herd,  or  have  you  no  definite  in 
formation  on  that  point  f 

A.  I  am  sure  of  the  statement,  to  which  I  refer,  of  the  commissary, 
because  the  condition  of  the  cattle  and  the  disparity  of  the  price  be 
tween  these  and  the  Indian  cattle  made  a  special  impression  upon  me. 

Q.  Then  you  refer  to  the  acting  commissary  at  the  post  at  that  time 
for  information  you  have  on  that  point  ? 

A.  Yes  ;  I  don't  even  recall  his  name. 

Mr.  HARRIS,  (to  Professor  Marsh.)  Professor,  have  you  auy  proof  in 
the  evidence  that  there  was  an  exchange  of  that  kind  ! 

Professor  MARSH.  I  have. 

Mr.  HARRIS.  Yrou  have  not  furnished  it  to  us. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  can  give  you  some  information  on  that  point. 

Q.  When  was  it  you  were  at  the  agency,  Mr.  Smith  ? 

A.  It  was  at  the  time  I  was  there  with  the  Bishop  Hare  commission. 
The  report  itself  gives  the  exact  dates.  I  do  not  recall  it. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  time  you  wrere  there,  and  that  was  the  time  you 
saw  those  cattle,  of  course  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  long  the  military  posts  had  been  there  at 
that  time  ? 

A.  Only  a  few  days ;  certainly  less  than  a  mouth. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  Hon.  Mr.  Hawes,  of  Nebraska! 

A.  I  don't  recollect  any  such  gentleman  at  all. 

Q.  Made  no  purchases  of  him  or  in  connection  with  him  of  Indian 
goods,  or  had  any  business  transactions  with  him  f 

A.  No,  sir  ;  certainly  not  personally.  If  I  have  been  connected  with 
any  commission  that  has  made  such  purchases,  I  am  not  aware  of  it. 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 
Q.  Do  you  refer  to  Mr.  Hawes,  who  ran  as  the  contingent  member  of 


751 

the  house  in  Nebraska,  but  who  was  not  admitted  to  a  seat  because 
Nebraska  did  not  get  an  additional  member,  and  is  now  in  business  in 
New  York  City  ? 

A.  1  suppose  he  is  the  man.     I  do  not  know  him  at  all. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  Did  you  pay  any  attention  to  the  selection  of  the  tobacco  for  the 
Indians  in  that  year,  as  I  understand  this  was  July,  1874  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  part  did  you  take  in  the  selection  of  that  article  ? 

A.  An  inspector,  whose  name  I  do  not  recollect,  was  designated. 

Q.  Kobiuson? 

A.  No.  An  inspector  was  designated,  who  examined  the  samples  and 
made  an  award.  Later  in  the  same  day,  when  his  award  came  to  be 
known,  I  found  considerable  excitement  among  tobacco-men  who  had 
made  the  bids  and  furnished  samples,  and  allegations  of  unfairness 
were  made  that  impressed  me  so  much,  that  I  suggested  a  new  examina 
tion  should  be  made ;  in  accordance  with  which,  not  knowing  a  single 
tobacco-man  in  New  York  City,  I  went  down  to  Water  street,  among  the 
tobacco-dealers,  at  random,  made  inquiries  of  probably  twenty  or  thirty 
houses  as  to  where  I  could  find  a  man  whose  character  as  an  expert  in  to 
bacco  was  sufficiently  established  to  be  absolutely  reliable.  Several  per 
sons  referred  me  to  a  Mr.  Robinson,  and,  having  his  name,  I  made  various 
other  inquiries  in  regard  to  his  character,  and  concluded  he  was  a  safe 
man,  and  found  him  and  introduced  myself  to  him,  and  brought  him  up 
to  the  ware-room.  He  re-examined  all  the  samples,  and  made  an  award 
of  two  samples,  which  were  different  from  those  the  other  inspector  had 
selected,  and  which  we  finally  adopted. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  this  sample  furnished  us  by  Mr.  Kobinson  as  in 
any  respect  like  either  of  the  qualities  of  tobacco  which  you  selected  ? 
[Sample  shown.] 

A.  No  ;•  I  am  not  an  expert  in  tobacco  myself ;  it  is  about  the  same  as 
to  the  general  size,  and  color,  and  appearance. 

Q.  Did  you,  or  did  he,  select  tobacco  of  that  color  and  size  ? 

A.  He  selected  two  samples;  one  about  this  color  and  size,  and  the 
other  very  much  lighter. 

Q.  There  is  a  sample  of  the  tobacco  taken  by  the  Commissioner  in  the 
warehouse,  said  to  be  of  the  supply  of  1874. 

A.  1  could  not  give  an  opinion  that  would  be  of  any  value  as  to  its 
quality. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q. 'Mr.  Smith,  cantyou  tell  us  who  directed  the  purchase  of  Navy  plug- 
tobacco  for  the  use  ot  Indians  last  year  or  at  any  other  time  ? 

A.  The  award  is  made  at  the  annual  lettings,  by  officers  of  the  In 
dian  Department,  in  connection  with  the  members  of  the  Board  of  In 
dian  Commissioners,  for  supplies  required  for  the  entire  Indian  service. 

Q.  There  are  samples  of  various  kinds  of  tobacco  presented  upon 
which  bids  are  offered,  I  presume  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  in  determining  that  bid,  is  it  governed  solely  by  the  price,  the 
parties  acting  for  the  Indians  selecting  that  which  is  cheapest,  without 
reference  to  the  particular  class  of  tobacco  it  belongs  to,  whether  Navy- 
plug  or  natural  leaf? 

A.  The  question  to  be  decided  is,  whether  one  class  of  tobacco  at  a 


752 

particular  price  is  to  be  preferred  over  another  sample  at  another  price; 
the  quality,  the  quantity,  and  price  in  each  case  to  be  taken  into  consid 
eration. 

Q.  Do  they  take  into  consideration  that  the  Indian  does  not  chew  to 
bacco  at  all,  but  smokes  it  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  and  also  that  he  smokes  it  mixed  with  killikinick  and 
large  portions  of  other  material. 

Q.  Who  determined  the  fact  that  this  black  Navy  tobacco  was  suitable 
for  smoking,  if  you  know  ? 

A.  The  special  information  as  to  the  quality  required,  in  regard  to  any 
article,  usually  came  from  the  commissioner  of  Indian  affairs,  who  was 
more  familiar  in  regard  to  all  those  details  than  anybody  else.  In  respect 
to  the  tobacco,  one  quality  was  selected  for  northern  agencies  and  an 
other  for  southern  agencies,  for  the  reason,  as  J  remember,  that  the  differ 
ence  of  climate  required  different  preparation. 

Q.  In  making  the  purchases  for  the  Indians,  while  you  advertise  for 
XX,  is  it  not  a  custom  of  the  purchasing-committee  to  purchase  the 
cheapest  flour  offered,  without  regard  to  whether  it  be  XX  or  X  ? 

A.  No,  I  think  not. 

Q.  Does  your  committee  annually  accept  the  bid  for  that  class  of  flour 
that  corresponds  with  the  proposals  for  flour,  as  the  same  grade  as  that 
contained  in  the  proposal  ? 

A.  That  is  the  custom.  Last  year  samples  of  flour  were  required,  and 
proposals  were  accepted  for  the  lowest  price  for  the  best  flour.  This 
year,  on  consultation,  I  believe,  with  a  good  many  experts,  no  samples 
were  required.  The  statement  was  that  the  standard  of  XX  flour  was 
one  so  well  established  in  the  western  markets,  at  any  rate,  that  any  in 
spector  who  understood  his  business  could  determine  whether  an  arti 
cle  supplied  was  equal  to  the  standard  of  XX  flour  or  not. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Did  Agent  Saville  last  year  report  to  your  board  that  he  had  pur 
chased  certain  oxen,  wagons,  cows,  &c.,  for  the  use  of  the  Indians  at 
his  agency  ? 

A.  No ;  Agent  Saville  would  not,  in  the  ordinary  course  of  business, 
make  any  report  of  that  fact  to  our  board.  Any  knowledge  we  might 
have  of  it  would  come  through  the  Department. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  reply  to  the  circular  sent  from  your  board 
touching  such  matters  ? 

A.  I  don't  think  any  such  circular  has  been  sent  since  my  connection 
with  the  board  ;  at  least  with  the  secretary's  office. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  communication  at  all  to  your  board  in  regard  to 
the  purchase  of  oxen,  cows,  and  wagons  for  his  Indians  last  year? 

A.  I  cannot  answer  absolutely  in  the  negative  without  consulting  the 
records;  I  don't  think  he  did.  I  understand  now  that  your  question 
refers  to  the  reply  of  Agent  Saville  to  the  circular  sent  by  the  board  of 
commissioners  calling  for  information  relative  to  progress  in  industry, 
which  reply  is  published  with  that  and  all  the  other  agents',  in  whole 
or  in  part,  in  the  annual  report  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
for  1874.  My  attention  had  not  been  specially  drawn  to  that  particular 
item  in  Saville's  report,  and  that  is  the  answer  I  have  to  make. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  he  stated  in  reply  to  your  circular  ? 

A.  I  don't  remember  at  all,  but  I  can  give  you  the  entire  document. 
It  is  published  there,  in  whole  I  think,  in  the  printed  report  of  the 


753 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  Will  you  furnish  us  also  a  copy  of  that  circular  ? 
A.  That  is  also  iu  the  printed  report. 

By  Mr.  MARSH  : 

Q.  Were  the  cattle  mentioned  in  this  letter  to  your  board,  as  pur 
chased  for  this  agency,  ever  actually  received  at  the  agency  ? 

A.  I  have  no  information  on  that  subject.  My  official  relation  to  the 
transaction  would  not  ordinarily  lead  me  to  receive  such  information. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  COLUMBUS  DELANO. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Mr.  Secretary,  I  will  ask  you  to  state  if  Messrs.  Felix  E. 
Bruuot,  Robert  Campbell,  Nathan  Bishop,  William  E.  Dodge,  John  V. 
Farwell,  and  George  H.  Stuart,  or  either  of  them,  at  any  time,  conferred 
with  you  on  the  subject  of  securing  legislation  by  Congress  which  would 
make  the  Indian  Bureau  independent  of  the  Interior  Department ; 
and.  if  so,  whether  you  encouraged  or  discouraged  their  effort  in  that 
direction  ? 

Answer.  I  have  no  recollection  of  a  conference  with  either  of  these 
gentlemen  on  that  subject.  Mr.  Brunot  expressed  to  me  an  opinion  iri 
favor  of  such  a  separation.  Subsequently  the  President  of  the  United 
States  informed  me  that  Mr.  Brunot  had  expressed  such  an  opinion  to 
him,  and  asked  my  opinion  in  reference  to  the  propriety  of  requesting 
legislation  to  that  end.  This,  I  think,  was  during  the  session  of  Con 
gress  embracing  the  winter  of  1873-'74,  and  late  in  the  session.  I  said  to 
the  President,  decidedly,  that  I  should  be  glad  to  have  the  Interior  De 
partment  relieved  of  the  Indian  Bureau,  and  interchanged  opinions  with 
the  President  in  reference  to  the  probability  of  procuring  legislation  at 
that  late  hour  of  the  session.  When  this  conversation  took  place  we 
both  concurred  in  opinion  that  it  was  too  late  to  make  a  successful  effort 
in  that  direction.  Immediately  after  the  resignation  of  Mr.  Brunot  the 
President  informed  me  that  Mr.  Brunot  was  mistaken  in  what  he  said 
about  me  iu  reference  to  this  proposed  change  in  his  letter  of  resigna 
tion,  and  referred  to  our  conversation  on  the  subject. 

Q.  In  your  conversation  with  Mr.  Bruuot  and  either  or  any  of  the 
other  gentlemen  whose  names  I  have  given,  before  or  after  their  resig 
nation,  did  they  express  any  other  reason  for  resigning  than  those 
which  are  given  in  their  letter  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  The  inquiries  which  I  proposed  to  make  of  you  at 
the  time  the  commission  first  came  to  Washington  have,  with  this  ex 
ception,  I  believe,  so  far  as  my  recollection  goes,  been  covered  by  the 
official  documents,  copies  of  which  have  been  furnished  the  commis 
sion  by  the  Interior  Department,  and  I  know  of  nothing  else  that  I  have 
occasion  to  inquire  about.  While  you  are  here,  however,  I  will  call 
your  attention  to  the  pamphlet  of  Professor  Marsh,  which  was  referred 
to  this  commission  for  its  investigation,  and  will  state  that  an  opportu 
nity  is  afforded  you,  if  you  desire  to  do  so,  to  make  any  statement  which 
you  may  think  proper  in  reference  to  any  of  the  matters  contained  in 
Professor  Marsh's  pamphlet. 

Mr.  DELANO.  I  have  no  desire  to  make  any.    It  has  been  my  purpose 
48  i  F 


754 

to  leave  this  investigation,  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  to  official  docu 
ments  and  such  evidence  as  Professor  Marsh  might  furnish  to  the  com 
mission,  and  as  the  commission  itself  might  seek  and  obtain,  and  my 
desire  is  unchanged  on  this  subject. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  is  the  precise  relation  of  the  Indian  Bureau  to  your  Depart 
ment,  and  to  what  extent  does  it  devolve  upon  you  to  supervise  and 
control  its  transactions  ? 

A.  The  Interior  Department  embraces  within  its  scope  the  charge  of 
the  Land-Office,  the  Indian  Office,  the  Pension-Office,  the  Patent-Office, 
the  Bureau  of  Education,  the  Census  Bureau,  Asylum  for  the  Insane, 
Asylum  for  Deaf  Mutes,  Columbia  Hospital,  construction  of  jails  and 
penitentiaries  for  the  Territories  and  District  of  Columbia,  the'  hospital 
of  the  Freedmen's  Bureau,  the  expenditures  for  the  Providence  Hospital, 
the  Capitol  Extension,  and  a  large  amount  of  miscellaneous  business 
which  from  time  to  time  Congress  devolves  upon  it,  it  being  the  rule  when 
anything  needs  to  be  done  that  is  not  homogeneous  to  any  of  the  other 
Departments  to  charge  it  to  the  Interior  Department.  The  magnitude 
and  extent  of  the  business  under  the  charge  of  the  Interior  Depart 
ment  is  scarcely  known  to  or  appreciated  by  members  of  Congress,  who 
have  more  familiarity  with  its  duties  than  almost  any  other  class  of  citi 
zens.  It  is  impossible  for  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to  be  familiar 
with  or  to  control;and  regulate  the  details  of  the  Offices  and  Bureaux 
under  his  charge.  The  extent,  therefore,  of  the  Secretary's  knowledge 
and  duty  in  regard  to  these  various  and  extensive  branches  of  business 
is  limited  to  a  general  control  and  supervision  of  the  same,  and  the  con 
sideration  of  such  questions  as  are  brought  from  the  Bureaus  to  the  Sec 
retary  for  decision  and  advice.  ^To  illustrate  :  the  Land-Office  has 
charge  of  the  public  domain,  which  involves  the  settlement  of  questions 
growing  out  of  our  pre-emption  and  homestead  laws;  questions  arising 
between  homestead  and  pre-emption  settlers  themselves,  or  between 
homestead  and  pre-emption  settlers  and  railroads  growing  out  of  large 
railroad  grants,  or  between  conflicting  claimants  under  railroad-grants, 
&c.,  &c. 

Q.  I  did  not  design,  Mr.  Secretary,  to  ask  you  to  give  so  extended  a 
view  of  the  relations  of  your  Department  to  its  different  branches,  but 
merely  to  ask  the  relations  existing  between  your  Office  and  the  Indian 
Bureau;  to  what  extent  it  was  an  independent  Bureau,  independent  of 
your  immediate  supervision;  and  to  what  extent  you  were  to  beheld 
immediately  and  directly  responsible  for  its  transactions. 

A.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  like  the  heads  of  the  other 
Bureaux  and  Offices,  manages  entirely  the  details  of  his  Office,  without  my 
personal  knowledge  or  supervision,  except  where  questions  are  brought 
before  me  in  the  way  that  I  have  indicated. 

By  Mr.  HOWE  : 

Q.  Can  you  state  in  that  connection  the  two  ways  in  which  questions 
are  brought  before  you? 

A.  One  is  by  application  of  the  Commissioner  for  advice,  and  the  other 
is  by  the  application  of  some  person  or  party  who  feels  aggrieved  by  the 
action  of  the  Commissioner. 

Q.  By  reference  of  a  question  from  the  head  of  the  Bureau  and  by 
an  appeal,  or  something  in  the  nature  of  an  appeal? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


755 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  Are  you  consulted  in  tbe  preparation  and  award  of  contracts  for 
Indian  supplies  in  that  Bureau? 

A.  No,  sir;  the  Commissioner  makes  out  his  advertisement  for  sup 
plies  according  to  what  he  supposes  to  be  the  wants  of  the  several  agen 
cies,  and  in  regard  to  these  wants  I  am  not  well  informed,  and  cannot 
in  most  cases  intelligently  advise  or  direct.  The  advertisement  is  made 
by  him.  It  is  submitted  to  me  pro  forma  very  often  for  my  approval. 

Q.  While  you  are  not  generally  consulted  in  the  ordinary  routine  of 
duty  in  regard  to  these  contracts  for  Indian  supplies,  have  you  at  any 
time  in  the  last  few  years  been  consulted  in  regard  to  the  contracts  lor 
supplies  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  ? 

A.  Never,  to  my  recollection,  sir.  The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
may  have  asked  me  about  it,  but  I  don't  recollect  of  ever  having  been 
consulted.  I  assume  that  he  knows  what  is  required  of  him. 

Q.  You  have  no  recollection  that  he  has  brought  any  of  these  matters 
connected  with  the  Indian  supplies  to  your  attention?  I  mean  in  the 
award  of  contracts  or  the  preparation  of  contracts. 

A.  1  do  not  remember  any  instance,  but  he  may  have  done  so.  If  he 
has  ever  done  so  in  a  formal  way,  my  action  will  be  found  in  the  records 
of  the  Office.  All  contracts  are  awarded  by  the  Commissioner,  under  the 
advice  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  or  a  committee  of  that 
Board,  and  1  have  never,  to  my  recollection,  overruled  an  award  thus 
made.  When  contracts  are  made  under  an  emergency,  and  without 
advertisement,  the  Secretary  is  consulted. 

Q.  It  appears  from  a  document  that  some  one  placed  before  us  that, 
as  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  you  have  passed  nearly  half  a  million  dol 
lars  of  accounts  that  have  been  rejected  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners.  Can  you  state  in  reference  to  any  of  these  accounts  that 
have  been  so  rejected  by  them  and  paid  by  you,  whether  any  of  them 
•were  rejected  by  the  Board  on  the  ground  or  charge  of  fraud  in  the 
accounts  ? 

A.  I  cannot  state  from  recollection  the  particular  grounds  of  rejec 
tion  in  any  particular  case.  I  do  not  remember  having  overruled  the 
Board  in  any  instance  where  the  Board  refused  to  approve  on  the  ground 
of  fraud.  I  can  give  you  a  history  of  the  whole  matter,  if  you  desire  it. 

Q.  W^e  would  be  pleased  to  have  you  state  it  briefly. 

A.  The  law  creating  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  and  empower 
ing  them  to  examine  accounts,  vouchers,  &c.,  which  was  passed  before 
my  acceptance  of  the  office  of  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  provided 
that  the  accounts,  before  being  paid,  should  be  presented  to  the  Board  for 
its  action,  and  authorized  and  required  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to 
revise  their  action,  and  approve  or  overrule  it.  The  law  remained  in 
that  condition  until  after  Mr.  Parker  retired,  and  until  General  Walker 
had  been  one  year  in  the  office  of  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and 
at  his  instance  the  law  was  modified  so  as  not  to  make  the  action  of  the 
Board  a  prerequisite  to  the  payment  of  the  accounts.  After  the  passage 
of  the  law  I  considered  the  subject,  and  determined,  for  prudential 
and  precautionary  reasons,  that  I  would  continue  the  practice  that 
had  prevailed  under  the  law,  which  required  the  action  of  the  Board  be 
fore  the  decision  of  the  Secretary,  and  this  practice  continued  without 
difficulty  or  any  serious  rejection  of  accounts  by  the  Board  until  the  fall 
of  1873.  During  this  time  it  was  the  practice  to  send  all  accounts  to  the 
executive  committee  of  the  Board  before  the  Secretary  considered  them. 
This  committee  established  its  headquarters  or  office  in  New  York  City , 
which  caused  a  good  deal  of  inconvenience  and  delay.  In  the  fall  of 


756 

1873  this  committee  rejected  the  large  number  of  accounts  to  which  you 
have  adverted;  the  details  of  any  particular  account  it  is  impossible  for 
me  to  remember. 

Q.  My  question  was  somewhat  specific.  I  knew  a  great  many  of  the 
accounts  were  rejected  by  the  Board  on  account  of  some  irregularity — 
some  technical  want  of  compliance  with  the  law.  The  point  to  which  I 
wish  to  direct  your  attention  is,  have  you  any  recollection  of  having 
paid  any  of  these  accounts  which  had  been  rejected  by  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  on  the  ground  of  fraud  ? 

A.  No  sir.  I  remember  no  such  instance.  The  rejections  were  for 
irregularities,  and,  as  you  have  said,  for  technical  reasons,  so  far  as  I 
remember.  I  will  complete  my  general  statement.  These  accounts 
were  rejected  and  brought  before  me  during  the  financial  panic  of  the 
year  1873.  A  large  amount  of  them  had  accumulated,  localizing  the 
importance  of  the  occasion  and  the  necessity  of  doing  what  was  just  to 
the  creditors  of  the  Government  during  this  exigency,  I  adopted  this 
rule  :  When  an  account  was  rejected  by  the  Board  I  returned  it  to  the 
Indian  Office  for  the  Commissioner's  information,  for  observations  and 
explanation.  When  returned  by  the  Indian  Office  to  me,  if  I  thought 
the  explanation  would  remove  the  objection  in  the  minds  of  the  Board, 
I  sent  it  back  to  the  Board.  In  many  instances  they  acted  upon  the 
explanation  of  the  Indian  Office  and  withdrew  their  disapproval.  If 
that  was  not  done,  I  referred  the  account,  with  the  report  from  the  In 
dian  Office  and  the  disapproval  of  the  Board,  to  the  Assistant  Attorney- 
General  assigned  to  duty  in  my  Department  for  legal  advice,  and  asked 
of  him  a  written  opinion  as  to  whether  the  accounts  should  be  approved 
by  me  and  the  action  of  the  Board  overruled,  or  whether  I  should  sustain 
the  action  of  the  Board  ;  and  in  every  instance,  so  far  as  my  recollection, 
serves  me,  I  followed  his  advice,  requiring  that  opinion  to  be  tiled  with 
the  papers  in  the  particular  case,  and  then  sent  forward  with  the  papers 
to  the  accounting-officers  of  the  Treasury  Department  if  I  overruled  the 
Board.  I  now  repeat,  that  I  have  no  recollection  that  any  of  these  cases 
where  I  overruled  the  Board  had  been  disapproved  by  the  Board  on  ac 
count  of  fraud.  I  will  add  that,  after  these  overrulings  of  the  action  of 
the  Board  had  been  made,  I  reported  to  Congress,  by  submitting  to  the 
President,  under  a  resolution  of  the  House  of  Kepresentatives,  I  think, 
all  the  facts  and  circumstances  of  each  particular  case,  and  with  the 
report  there  was  a  schedule  of  accounts  that  had  been  acted  upon,  em 
bracing  each  account  acted  upon  ;  and  that  report  is  published,  and  is 
the  one  that  has  been  adverted  to  by  the  chairman.  I  have  given  the 
chairman  of  this  commission  a  copy  of  it.  This  report  was  not  only  be 
fore  Congress,  but  was  before  the  Committee  on  Indian  Affairs  during 
the  session  of  1873-'74,  of  which  one  of  your  commission  was  a  member. 
Q.  Has  your  attention  as  Secretary  of  the  Interior  been  directed  to 
any  distinct  charges  of  fraud  in  anv  of  the  Indian  agencies  in  the 
West  ? 

A.  It  has  been  directed  to  cases  of  alleged  fraud  frequently.  I  recol 
lect  that  my  attention  was  called  to  alleged  cases  of  fraud  at  the  Chey 
enne  liiver  agency,  and  I  immediately  appointed  a  gentleman  to  in 
vestigate  them.  I  recollect  another  case,  which  occurred  in  the  fall 
of  1873.  It  appertained  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  learned  from  Eev. 
Dr.  Dyer,  who  is  the  representative  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal 
Church,  and  who  nominates  certain  Indian  agents,  that  some  charge 
had  been  made  against  Agent  Saville,  or,  rather,  Dr.  Dyer  inquired  of  me 
if  any  had  been  made.  I  replied  that  I  had  heard  of  none.  I  subse 
quently  ascertained  that  the  Board  of  iidian  Commissioners  had  ap- 


757 

pointed  a  person,  without  consulting  me,  by  the  name  of  Samuel  Walker 
to  investigate  the  condition  of  affairs  at  Ked  Cloud  agency  in  October 
or  November,  1873;  that  he  had  made  a  report  damaging  to  the  agent; 
that  the  report  had  been  kept  from  my  knowledge  until  February,  1874, 
and  had  been  furnished  to  outside  parties  by  Walker.  One  of  these  parties 
was  William  Welsh.  I  immediately  appointed  a  commission  to  examine 
into  the  condition  of  affairs  at  Ked  Cloud,  consisting  of  Bishop  Hare,  mis 
sionary  bishop  of  Niobrara,  Rev.  Dr.  Hinman,  and  one  of  the  inspectors — 
I  think  Dr.  Bevier.  I  also  corresponded  with  Mr.  Brunot,  the  chairman 
of  the  Board,  upon  the  impropriety  of  causing  a  secret  investigation  of 
the  sort,  and  withholding  the  information  from  me.  All  that  correspond 
ence  is  in  the  pamphlet  published  and  before  you,  containing  the  official 
documents  and  the  report  of  Bishop  Hare,  Mr.  Hinman.  and  Inspector 
Bevier,  appointed  as  aforesaid.  That  report  was  an  exoneration  of  the 
agent  and  a  contradiction  of  the  report  of  Walker,  which  had  been 
secretly  made,  and  kept  from  my  knowledge  under  the  circumstances  I 
have  stated.  My  attention  has  been  called  to  many  other  instances  of 
fraud  which  I  cannot  specify,  and  I  have  never  failed,  and  never  shall 
fail,  I  trust,  while  I  am  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  to  take  the  proper 
steps  to  investigate  all  such  complaints.  Your  appointment  is  due  to 
such  complaints.  The  investigation  of  charges  against  Commissioner 
Smith,  made  by  William  Welsh,  is  another  instance  occurring  to  my  mind, 
and  there  is  now  in  progress  a  commission  to  examine  the  condition  of 
affairs  at  the  Osage  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Now,  referring  to  the  Treaty  of  1868  with  the  Sioux  Indians,  I  wish 
to  inquire  if  your  attention  has  been  called  to  the  provision  in  the  tenth 
article  of  that  Treaty,  which  requires  that  "  the  President  shall  annually 
detail  an  officer  of  the  Army  to  be  present  and  attest  the  delivery  of  all 
the  goods  herein  named  to  the  Indians,  and  he  shall  inspect  and  report 
on  the  quantity  and  quality  of  the  goods  and  the  manner  of  their  de 
livery  ;''  annuity-goods  ? 

A.  I  confess  it  never  has  been. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Q.  I  would  like  to  know  whether  at  any  time  any  member  of  either 
of  the  Boards  of  Indian  Commissioners  expressed  a  wish  or  desire  to 
you  for  the  removal  of  Mr.  Smith  as  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
and  the  appointment  of  any  other  person,  or  claimed  that  he  was  not  a 
proper  person  for  that  place  ? 

A.  A  member  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners? 

Q.  Yes. 

A.  Never,  to  my  recollection. 

Q.  I  do  not  speak  of  the  present  board,  but  either  the  new  or  the  old 
Board. 

A.  Yes,  sir  ;  a  member  of  the  former  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
expressed  such  a  desire  to  me. 

Q.  Have  you  any  objection  to  stating  who  that  member  was  and  what 
suggestion  he  made  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Please  state  it. 

A.  It  was  William  Welsh,  of  Philadelphia. 

Q.  At  what  period  ;  when  was  it  ? 

A.  It  was  in  the  fall  of  1873,  immediately  preceding  the  assembling 
of  Congress. 

Q.  Upon  what  grounds  did  he  make  the  request,  if  you  remember  ? 


758 

A.  Mr.  William  Welsh  desired  a  private  interview  with  me,  which  I 
granted.  This  interview  took  place  at  my  house  one  morning,  immedi 
ately  after  breakfast,  in  accordance  with  an  appointment.  After  some 
preliminary  remarks,  he  asked  me  to  remove  Mr.  Commissioner  Smith 
and  Assistant  Secretary  Cowen  from  office,  and  stated  that  if  I  did,  I 
would  escape  a  great  deal  of  trouble  and  avoid  a  congressional  investi 
gation.  I  replied  to  him  that  I  could  not  afford  to  remove  officers  in 
whom  I  had  confidence  from,  such  a  motive,  but  if  he  had  any  charges 
against  either  of  these  officers,  I  would  appoint  a  committee  to  be  named 
by  him,  or  appoint  him  as  a  committee  to  investigate  them,  and  if  the 
report  showed  reasons  for  removing  these  officers,  I  would  ask  the  Pres 
ident  to  remove  them.  He  declined  to  do  so  ;  and  subsequently,  during 
the  same  day,  visited  the  Interior  Department,  and  had  interviews 
with  both  these  gentlemen,  as  he  told  me  on  the  afternoon  of  the  same 
day,  saying,  when  he  told  me  so,  that  the  things  which  were  upon  his 
mind  had  been  fully  explained,  that  he  was  perfectly  satisfied,  and  that 
his  old  love  and  affection  for  these  officers  had  returned.  That  is  the 
substance  of  the  request.  There  were  some  incidents  connected  with 
our  conversation  that  I  have  not  related. 

Q.  At  the  time  of  that  interview  with  Mr.  Welsh  at  your  house,  when 
he  demanded  the  removal  of  Assistant  Secretary  Cowen  and  Mr.  Commis 
sioner  Smith,  did  he  give  any  expression  as  to  his  confidence  or  want  of 
confidence  in  yourself  and  your  administration? 

A.  During  that  interview,  and  after  his  demand  for  the  removal  of 
Assistant  Secretary  Cowen  and  Commissioner  Smith,  and  after  I  pro 
posed  to  appoint  him  to  investigate  charges  against  them,  and  after  he 
threatened  a  congressional  investigation  in  case  I  declined  to  remove 
them,  I  stated  to  him  my  apprehensions  that  his  feelings  were  unkind 
and  unfriendly  toward  me,  and  that  his  purpose  was  to  embarrass  my 
administration,  and  that  I  had  reason  for  supposing  that  since  my  re 
fusal  to  make  him  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  at  the  suggestion  of 
Mr.  Brunot,  he  had  entertained  unkind  feelings  toward  me.  He  then 
assured  me  in  the  most  earnest  and  solemn  manner  that  he  had  entire 
confidence  in  my  integrity,  in  my  ability,  and  in  my  sincere  purpose  to 
carry  out,  so  far  as  I  was  able,  the  peace-policy  of  the  President,  and 
that  he  never,  at  any  time,  doubted  me  on  any  of  these  points.  He 
also  then  made  emphatic  demonstrations  of  affection  for  me,  which  at 
this  time  I  deem  it  unnecessary  to  describe  or  state.  So  far  as  I  know, 
all  these  matters  about  which  investigation  is  being  made  antedated 
this  conversation  with  Mr.  Welsh. 

Q.  After  that,  while  he  was  a  member  of  the  Board,  did  he  make  any 
charges  against  either  of  these  officers? 

A.  He  was  not  then  a  member  of  the  Board.  He  had  been  a  member, 
and,  after  retiring,  had  been  and  was  an  officious  person  about  Indian  af 
fairs,  but  it  was  asa  volunteer  and  not  as  a  member  that  he  made  these 
statements. 

Q.  Was  there  any  suggestion  by  any  other  member  of  the  Board  as  to 
the  displacement  ot  these  gentlemen,  and  the  appointment  of  any  par 
ticular  person  as  successor  to  Mr.  Smith  f 

A.  No,  sir. 

C^).  Dili  any  member  of  the  old  Board  recommend  or  suggest  at  any 
time  the  name  of  Mr.  Welsh  for  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  ! 

A.  When  Mr.  Parker  retired  from  office,  and  before  Mr.  Walker  was 
appointed,  one  of  the  members  of  the  Board  suggested  to  me  the  appoint 
ment  of  Mr.  Wm.  Welsh,  as  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  This  took 
place  after  a  meeting  of  the  General  Convention  of  the  Protestant  Epis- 


759 

copal  Church,  in  Baltimore,  to  which  I  had  been  invited  by  Mr.  Welsh, 
for  the  purpose  of  making  some  observations  explanatory  of  the  Indian 
policy  of  the  United  States.  At  that  meeting  there  were  some  distin 
guished  persons  trom  England,  and  Mr.  Welsh  was  very  urgent  that  I 
should  go  there  and  explain  to  them  our  system  and  policy  of  treating 
the  Indians.  I  went  in  obedience  to  his  request,  and  was  entertained 
very  handsomely  by  him  while  there.  It  was  very  soon  after  that  meet 
ing  that  Mr.  Brunot,  a  member  of  the  Board,  suggested  to  me  for  con 
sideration  Mr.  Welsh's  name,  as  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  but  I 
promptly  disapproved  of  it,  although  I  had  no  objection  to  Mr.  Welsh 
at  that  time,  other  than  what  arose  from  my  conviction  that  he  had  not 
the  judgment,  wisdom,  and  discretion  necessary  for  the  place. 

Q.  Was  this  matter  at  any  time  discussed  by  you  before  the  Board  or 
with  members  of  the  Board  ? 

A.  No,  sir.  It  was  never  discussed  before  the  Board. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  matter  was  informally  or  in  any  way 
discussed  by  other  members  of  the  Board  ?  Whether  the  Board  had 
been  informed  of  what  had  transpired  ? 

A.  I  cannot  say,  sir.  My  opinion  in  reference  to  the  impropriety  of 
appointing  Mr.  Welsh  was  distinct  and  undisguised. 

The  CHAIRMAN  (to  Professor  Marsh.)  Are  there  any  questions  that 
you  desire  to  ask  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 


TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  B.  E.  COWEN. 

Hon.  B.  R.  COWEN,  Assistant  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  was  present 
in  response  to  a  request  of  the  commission. 

By  Mr.  HARRIS  : 

Question.  As  none  of  the  other  commissioners  have  any  questions  to 
ask,  and  although  I  have  no  special  inquiries  to  make  myself,  yet  as 
you  are  here,  Mr.  Secretary,  I  will  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  of  the 
immense  list  of  overruled  claims,  some  of  which  have  been  alluded  to 
in  connection  with  this  investigation.  As  an  example  I  will  take  one  of 
the  largest,  that  of  A.  H.  Wilder,  for  the  sum  of  $80, 685.50,  for  beef 
furnished  in  advance  of  the  requirements  of  the  contract.  Here  are  the 
original  papers,  [showing  papers ;]  can  you  give  us  any  information 
about  it  I 

Answer.  I  cannot  tell  anything  about  it  further  than  appears  in  my 
indorsement  and  the  letter  of  Mr.  W.  H.  Smith,  Assistant  Attorney- 
General  accompanying.  My  indorsement  reads  as  follows  : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 

October  28,  1873. 

The  action  of  the  executive  committee  is  hereby  set  aside;  and,  in  accordance  with 
the  recommendation  contained  in  a  letter  of  Hon.  W.  H.  Smith,  Assistant  Attorney-Gen 
eral,  (copy  herewith,)  the  account  is  approved  for  $80,685.56. 

B.  R.  COWEN, 

Acting  Secretary. 

And  you  will  find  there  among  the  papers  the  letter  of  the  Assistant 
Attorney-General  referred  to  in  that  indorsement. 

Q.  Is  there  any  information  which  you  can  give  us  in  relation  to  that 
matter  that  is  not  contained  in  these  papers  ? 

A.  No,  sir  j  I  have  no  recollection  of  any. 


760 

Q.  That  is  your  indorsement  ? 

A.  That  is  my  indorsement. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  you  overruled  the  action  of  the  Board  of 
Indian  Commissioners  upon  consultation  with  the  Secretary  of  the  In 
terior,  or  upon  your  own  responsibility  ? 

A.  It  was  the  custom,  as  appears  by  the  letter  of  the  Assistant  Attor 
ney-General,  to  refer  such  matters  to  him  for  his  opinion. 

Q.  Was  there  any  question  of  fraud  raised  in  connection  with  the 
payment  of  that  claim  ? 

A.  None  at  all. 

Q.  We  have  the  papers,  but  if  you  have  any  personal  knowledge 
that  you  could  add  to  them  we  would  like  to  have  it. 

A.  I  will  look  them  over  and  see  whether  anything  occurs  to  my 
recollection.  [After  examining  the  documents.]  *  You  will  see  that 
the  Assistant  Attorney-General,  in  his  opinion,  says : 

It  seems  to  be  conceded  that  all  the  cattle  were  in  tact  delivered  as  stated  in  the  account. 
The  only  objection  urged  is,  that  they  were  delivered  in  advance  of  the  times  called  for  by 
the  contract. 

The  proposals,  which  are  made  part  of  the  contract,  called  for  5,000,000  pounds  for  each 
of  the  agencies  at  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone,  to  be  delivered  in  equal  proportions  on  the  1st 
and  15th  of  each  month  of  the  fiscal  year.  The  Commissioner,  however,  reserved  "the  right 
to  increase  or  diminish  the  quantity  of  any  of  the  articles  which  the  bidder  or  bidders  pro 
posed  to  furnish." 

The  contract  stipulated  that  such  increase  or  decrease  should  not  exceed  25  per  cent.  The 
deliveries  that  were  made  exceeded  the  25  per  cent,  somewhat.  They  were  made  in  accordance 
with  a  custom  that  has  prevailed  at  Indian  agencies,  especially  in  the  summer  months,  of  de 
livering  and  receiving  more  than  the  exact  quota.  This  custom  is  alleged  to  be  beneficial  to 
the  Government,  inasmuch  as  pasture  is  then  generally  abundant,  and  the  cattle  thrive  and 
increase  in  weight,  at  comparatively  no  expense. 

That  is  about  the  merits  of  the  case,  as  appears  from  the  documents. 
I  have  no  recollection  of  the  case  beyond  the  indorsement. 

Q.  Were  you  accustomed  to  pass  such  claims  upon  the  opinion  of  the 
Attorney-General  without  yourself  investigating  the  facts  ? 

A.  I  presume  we  would  go  over  the  points  of  the  case  together  before 
final  action  was  taken,  and  to  that  extent  investigate  the  case,  though 
I  cannot  say  tha  Ithat  would  be  a  thorough  investigation  by  myself,  but 
simply  going  over  the  points  with  him,  he  having  examined  them  care 
fully  and  fully. 

By  Mr.  FAULKNER  : 

Q.  What  is  the  weight  or  authority  that  you  attach  to  the  opinion  of 
the  Assistant  Attorney-General  in  the  Department  of  the  Interior ;  do 
you  regard  it  as  conclusive  in  governing  your  action  ? 

A.  I  regard  it  as  very  good  advice  in  all  questions  of  law  simply,  but 
conclusive  in  nothing  else.  The  present  Assistant  Attorney-General  is 
regarded  as  a  very  prominent  lawyer  in  his  State,  and  is  considered  a 
sound  lawyer,  and  I  think  his  opinion  on  a  legal  question  it  entitled  to 
great  weight. 

Q.  Do  you  submit  to  him  any  but  legal  questions? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  regard  his  opinions  and  decisions  as  binding  upon  the 
Department  ? 

A.  Not  binding  at  all ;  simply  advisory. 

Q.  You  don't  shield  yourself  behind  the  authority  of  the  Assistant 
Attorney-General  ? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  rest  upon  the  merits  of  the  case  independent  of  his  opinion  f 

A.  Yes,  sir. 


761 

By  Mr.  ATHERTON  : 

Q.  One  question  suggested  by  the  reading  of  the  contract,  I  would 
like  to  ask  :  Under  the  contracts  that  are  awarded  by  the  Interior  De 
partment,  are  the  proposals  uniformly  considered  a  part  of  the  contract  ? 

A.  I  presume  by  these  papers  that  they  are,  though  I  have  nothing 
to  say  of  my  own  knowledge  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Would  the  Assistant  Attorney-General  to  whom  you  refer,  be  able 
to  answer  that  definitely  ? 

A.  Yes,  sir;  he  would  be  able  to  answer;  but  the  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs  would  be  a  better  authority  for  that,  because  it  is  one  of 
the  details  connected  directly  with  his  Office,  and  with  which  the  Secre 
tary  has  nothing  to  do  at  all.  The  custom  would  be  sufficient,  I  sup 
pose,  by  the  reference  he  makes  in  his  opinion,  the  Attorney-General 
found  it  was  the  custom.  I  think  you  will  find  that  matter  referred  to 
in  his  letter. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Will  you  please  explain  to  the  commission  what  you  know  with 
reference  to  the  claim  of  McCann  for  demurrage,  which  has  recently 
been  paid. 

A.  Yes,  sir.  This  was  a  claim  for  demurrage,  growing  out  of  certain 
delays  in  the  trains  of  McCanu  at  Fort  Laramie,  in  the  summer  of  1871. 
These  trains  were  en  route  to  the  Whetstone  agency  when  the  Red 
Cloud  agent  had  reason  to  believe  that  the  Ked  Cloud  Indians  intended 
to  resist  the  passage  of  these  goods  through  their  territory,  and  upon 
his  own  responsibility  he  delayed  the  train  at  Fort  Laramie  until  he 
could  communicate  with  the  Department.  In  August,  1871,  he  was  di 
rected  by  the  Acting  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  to  delay  the  train 
at  Fort  Laramie.  This  delay  was  continued  until  the  14th  August,  1871, 
when  the  goods  which  had  been  intended  for  the  Whetstone  agency 
were  directed  to  be  forwarded  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  which  was  so 
done.  By  reason  of  that  delay  McCaun  claimed  a  certain  amount  as 
his  loss,  and  asked  payment  of  that  claim.  The  claim  was  originally 
presented  to  the  Indian  Office  for  payment,  when  it  was  discovered  that 
there  were  no  funds  on  hand  to  pay  it  with.  Then  it  was  sent  to  Con 
gress,  and  by  the  House  of  Representatives  was  referred  to  the  standing 
Committee  on  Indian  Affairs,  which  committee,  on  the  15th  of  April, 

1874,  reported  in  favor  of  the  payment,  which  report  (No.  417,  Forty- 
third  Congress,  first  session)  will  be  found  among  the  executive  docu 
ments  of  that  session.    The  bill  reported  by  the  Committee  on  Indian. 
Affairs  failed  to  pass  at  that  session.     Subsequently  it  was  discovered, 
on  the  adjustment  of  balances  of  appropriations  between  the  Indian 
Office  and  the  Treasury  Department,  that  there  was  a  balance  on  hand 
applicable  to  the  payment  of  a  portion  of  this  claim,  and  the  account 
was  referred  to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  for  examination. 
The  report  of  the  executive  committee  of  that  Board,  dated  August  5, 

1875,  is  as  follows : 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  5,  1875. 

SIR :  I  have  the  honor  to  return  herewith,  without  the  approval  of  the  executive  com 
mittee  of  this  Board,  the  account  of  D.  J.  McCann  for  $11,368,  for  detention  of  trains  while 
transporting  Indian  goods  and  supplies  during  August,  1871. 

The  account  seeming  to  involve  a  question  of  law  as  to  payment  for  detention  of  trains, 
with  which  the  committee  were  not  familiar,  and  the  matter  having  once  been  before  Con 
gress  without  final  adjudication,  it  was  deemed  proper  to  refer  it  to  the  full  Board  at  its  recent 
meeting  at  Long  Branch. 


762 

The  Board,  acting  from  the  same  considerations,  directed  the  return  of  the  papers  withou 
the  approval  of  the  committee. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

F.  H.  SMITH, 

Secretary. 
Hon.  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 

The  Board  withheld  their  approval,  because  the  account  involved  a 
question  of  law,  as  to  payment  for  detention  of  trains,  with  which  the 
committee  were  not  familiar.  This  report  of  the  executive  committee 
was  referred  by  me  to  the  Second  Comptroller  for  his  opinion,  as  you. 
will  see  by  the  indorsement : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

A  ugust  5, 1 875. 

Respectfully  referred  for  the  opinion  of  the  Second  Comptroller  as  to  the  propriety  of 
allowing  the  within  account,  having  reference  to  his  recent  decision  in  the  case  of  the 
claim  of  Neal  and  Murphy. 

B.  R.  COWEN, 
Acting  Secretary. 

In  reply,  the  Comptroller,  tinder  date  of  August  6,  1875,  gave  as  his 
opinion  that  the  contractor  was  clearly  entitled  to  compensation,  and 
that  the  claim,  could  be  allowed.  His  letter  is  as  follows  : 

TREASURY  DEPARTMENT, 
SECOND  COMPTROLLER'S  OFFICE. 

August  6,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  am  in  the  receipt,  by  your  reference,  of  the  account  of  D.  J.  McCann  for  trans 
portation  and  delays  of  Indian  goods  and  supplies  in  the  year  1871.  In  reply  to  your  ques 
tion  as  to  the  propriety  of  allowing  the  claim,  I  have  to  say  that  it  appears  from  the  papers 
submitted  that  the  contractor  entered  upon  the  duty  and  carried  the  goods  according  to  the 
direction  of  the  Indian  Department,  and  is  clearly  entitled  to  compensation  therefor,  and  I  am 
of  opinion  that  the  claim  can  be  allowed. 
Very  respectfully, 

J.  M.  BRODHEAD, 

Comptroller. 
Hon.  B.  R.  COWEN, 

Acting  Secretary  of  the  Interior. 

After  the  receipt  of  that  letter  from  the  Second  Comptroller  a  copy  of 
it  was  forwarded,  with  the  claim,  to  the  proper  accounting-officers  of  the 
Treasury,  with  the  following  indorsement : 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  August  6,  1875. 

In  view  of  the  opinion  of  the  Second  Comptroller  of  the  Treasury,  dated  August  6,  1875? 
copy  herewith,  the  within  account  is  hereby  allowed  in  the  sum  of  $1 1,368. 

B.  R.  COWEN, 

Acting  Secretary. 

I  desire  also  in  this  connection  to  present  the  decision  of  the  Second 
Comptroller,  dated  December  28,  1874,  in  the  matter  of  the  claim  of 
Neal  and  Murphy,  which  is  a  similar  case  to  the  one  under  considera 
tion.  The  Comptroller  cites  the  custom  of  the  Treasury  Department  in 
regard  to  claims  for  demurrers,  and  also  the  decision  of  the  Supreme 
Court  of  the  United  States,  by  which  it  will  be  seen  the  validity  of  such 
claims  has  been  and  still  is  recognized  by  the  proper  accounting- 
officers  of  the  Treasury.  The  decision  is  as  follows  : 

TREASURY  DEPARTMENT, 
SECOND  COMPTROLLER'S  OFFICE, 

December  28,  1874. 

In  the  matter  of  the  claim  of  Neal  and  Murphy  for  expenditures  incurred  by  them  in  carry 
ing  out  a  contract  with  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  but  which  was  subsequently 
abrogated  by  the  Government. 


7(53 

SIR  :  Claimants  allege,  and  file  the  affidavits  of  their  wagon-master  and  others  as  well  as 
their  own  in  support  of  their  allegation,  that  in  consequence  of  the  failure  of  the  Govern 
ment  to  furnish  them  with  the  public  stores  for  transportation  which  their  contract  required 
them  to  transport,  they  were  obliged  to  sell  their  teams  and  outfits  at  a  reduced  rate.  The 
loss  thus  resulting  they  ask  the  Government  to  re-imburse  to  them 

And  they  also  ask  for  demurrage  while  their  teams  were  proceeding  from  Atchison,  Kan 
sas,  to  Wichita,  in  that  State,  and  returning  thence  to  the  place  of  departure,  and  this  on 
the  ground  that  their  said  contract  required  them  to  receive  the  said  public  stores  at  Wichita 
and  thence  to  transport  them  to  the  several  Indian  agencies  mentioned  in  the  contract. 

Whether  the  facts  justify  an  allowance  in  the  nature  of  demurrage  or  for  re-imbur.-ement 
of  actual  and  necessary  expenses,  or  for  each,  I  am  not  prepared  to  decide. 

It  has  been  the  long-settled  practice  of  the  account  ing-officers  to  adjust  claims  of  either 
description  arising  in  the  transportation  service  of  the  Army,  but  in  such  cases  it  is  also  the 
rule  to  require,  as  a  condition  precedent,  the  administrative  action  of  the  Quartermaster's 
Department. 

1  find  on  examination  of  the  papers  of  this  claim  no  report  of  the  facts  with  recommenda 
tion  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  with  the  view  that  you  will  cause  an  inves 
tigation  to  be  made  of  the  facts,  as  alleged  by  the  claimants,  I  now  transmit  all  the  papers. 

The  case  of  Bulkley,  a  contractor,  illustrates  the  practice  of  the  accounting-officers. 

Having  been  notified  by  the  Quartermaster's  Department  that  transportation  for  a  large 
amount  of  supplies  would  be  required,  h«  got  ready.  A  small  part  of  the  stores  was  furnished 
the  contractor,  but  the  Government,  not  needing  transportation  for  the  greater  portion,  did 
not  furnish  it. 

The  contractor  presented  his  claim  for  re-imbursement  of  actual  expenses  incurred  in  order 
to  fulfill  his  contract.  This  consisted  of  two  items  : 

1.  The  difference  between  the  cost  of  purchase  of  teams  and  outfit  and  the  amount  realized 
from  the  sale  of  the  same  ;  and 

2.  The  expense  of  wintering  his  stock. 

The  facts  alleged  by  the  contractor  were  verified  on  investigation  by  the  Quartermaster- 
General,  and  the  claim  was  approved  by  this  Office. 

On  review  by  the  accounting-officers,  it  was  held  to  come  within  the  rule  of  this  Office,  as 
found  in  paragraph  593,  Digest  of  Comptroller,  and  payment  of  the  claim,  was  accordingly 
made.  Profits,  it  will  be  observed,  were  disallowed. 

The  claimant  thereupon  brought  suit  against  the  United  States  in  the  Court  of  Claims  to 
recover  profits  under  his  contract. 

The  court  decided : 

The  defendants  not  having  violated  their  contract  through  its  entire  scope,  the  claimant 
should  not  recover  as  damages  the  profits  he  would  have  made  had  the  freight  specified  been 
furnished  him. 

But  the  defendants  having  thrown  upon  the  claimant  needless  expense,  by  requiring  him 
to  make  ready  for  the  transportation  of  freight  under  the  contract  which  they  did  not  in  fact 
require  to  be  transported,  the  claimant  should  recover  the  amount  of  such  expense. — (Vide 
Build cy  v.  United  States,  9  C.  Cl  K.,  82.) 

On  appeal,  the  Supreme  Court  sustained  the  ruling  of  the  Court  of  Claims. 

The  court,  speaking  of  the  claim,  said  : 

"This  claim  is  confined  to  the  stores  not  transported." 

And,  speaking  of  the  contract,  it  held  that  it  commits  the  Government  to  nothing  but  to 
pay  for  service  rendered.  *  *  *  In  making  ready  to  meet  the  requirements  of  the  notices, 
Bulkley  was  subject  to  the  loss  of  time,  to  trouble  and  expense.  He  is  entitled  to  be  paid 
accordingly. 

Such  is  the  implication  of  tl  e  contract,  and  what  is  implied  in  a  contract,  deed,  will,  or 
statute  is  as  effectual  as  what  is  expressed. — (Ibid,  19  Wallace,  37.) 

It  will  thus  be  seen  that  the  rule  observed  in  Bulkley's  case  by  this  Office,  in  accordance 
with  former  practice,  is  supported  and  confirmed  by  the  decisions  of  the  Court  of  Claims  and 
of  the  Supreme  Court. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  M.  BRODHEAD, 

Comptroller. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

The  claim  of  McCarin  was  returned  by  the  executive  committee  of 
the  Bourd  of  Indian  Commissioners,  as  they  say,  simply  because  it 
seemed  to  involve  a  question  of  law  with  which  they  were  not  familiar, 
and  relative  to  which  they  express  no  opinion. 


764 


STATEMENT  OF  HENRY  E.  ALYOKD. 

Mr.  HENRY  E.  ALVORD,  being  unable  to  visit  Washington  to  testify 
in  person,  had  forwarded  the  following  sworn  statement  of  matters  un 
der  investigation: 

EAST  HAMPTON,  MASS.,  September  11,  1875. 

SIR  :  Your  letter  dated  Saint  Louis,  September  6,  1875,  has  been  re 
ceived.  It  requests  me  to  appear  as  a  witness  before  the  commission 
appointed  to  investigate  alleged  frauds  and  mismanagement  of  Indian 
affairs,  of  which  you  are  chairman,  at  Washington,  D.  C.,  between  the 
9th  and  loth  of  the  present  month,  and  in  case  I  cannot  meet  you,  to 
u  write  out  and  transmit  a  full  statement  of  all  matters  within  your 
knowledge,  touching  the  alleged  frauds  and  mismanagement." 

My  duties  here  in  charge  of  the  business  department  of  Williston 
Seminary,  its  academic  year  having  just  commenced,  prevent  me  from 
going  to  Washington  at  present.  And  without  questions  or  other  guide 
from  your  commission,  it  seems  impracticable  for  me  to  undertake  a  de 
tailed  statement  for  your  use  or  information.  I  can,  however,  give  you 
a  general  account  of  my  connection  with  Indian  affairs,  and  my  knowl 
edge  of  frauds  and  mismanagement  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone 
(or  Spotted  Tail)  agencies  for  the  Sioux  of  Dakota,  and,  for  convenience, 
I  do  so  in  this  letter-form. 

For  about  five  years  from  and  after  the  re-organization  of  1866  I  was 
an  officer  of  the  United  States  Army,  and  served  the  greater  part  of 
the  time  in  the  Indian  country,  having  considerable  u  special  Indian 
duty,"  and  thus  becoming  well  acquainted  with  the  Indian  service  of 
the  Southwest.  In  December,  1871,  family  matters  caused  the  resigna 
tion  of  my  commission  as  a  captain  of  cavalry  in  the  Army,  and  I 
located  in  Fairfax  County,  Virginia. 

In  July,  1872,  Prof.  Edward  Parrish,  of  Philadelphia,  and  myself 
were  appointed  special  commissioners  to  the  Comanches,  Kiowas,  and 
neighboring  tribes.  My  associate  died  at  the  Kiowa  agency,  September 
9.  The  remaining  work  of  the  commission  devolved  upon  me,  and  was 
completed  in  October.  The  report  dated  at  Washington,  October  10, 
1872,  will  be  found,  marked  u  E,"  among  the  papers  accompanying  the 
annual  report  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  for  the  year  1872, 
at  page  128  of  the  bound  volume.  By  that  report  the  attention  of  the  De 
partment  was  called  to  certain  "  fraud  and  mismanagement"  under  the 
several  heads  of  the  '; Wichita  agency,"  p.  134;  "Rations  and  annuity 
goods,"  p.  140;  "  The  liquor-trade,"  p.  144  ;  "  Transportation,"  p.  146, 
and  especially  "  Inspection,"  p.  147.  Aside  from  the  general  statements 
of  the  report,  I  gave  specific  information  as  to  these  matters,  in  person, 
to  the  then  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs.  I  know  that  steps  were 
promptly  taken  to  correct  some  of  the  evils  thus  reported  and  account 
for  the  failure  to  attend  to  the  others,  by  the  fact  that  the  official  to 
whom  the  verbal  information  was  given  resigned  soon  after,  and  for  two 
or  three  months  the  Indian  Office  was  without  a  Commissioner. 

In  May,  1873,  I  was  appointed  the  junior  member  of  a  special  corn- 
mission  to  the  Sioux  Indians,  the  objects  of  which  were  about  the  same 
as  those  of  what  is  now  known  as  the  Black  Hills  commission.  Hon. 
Felix  R.  Brunot,  then  chairman  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners, 
and  Col.  E.  C.  Kemble,  now  United  States  Indian  inspector,  were  the 
other  members. 

Under  written  instructions  from  the  Department  of  the  Interior,  dated 


765 

May  17,  1873,  Colonel  Kemble  and  myself  were  directed  to  proceed  at 
once  to  Omaha,  Cheyenne,  Fort  Laramie,  and  the  agencies,  both  to  ar 
range  for  the  general  council  with  the  Sioux  Indians  and  to  specially 
investigate  and  report  upon  certain  complaints  of  mismanagement  at 
the  Sioux  agencies.  This  was  accordingly  done. 

Colonel  Kemble  and  I  visited  together,  during  the  first  half  of  June, 
the  Ked  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  gave  as  close  attention  to  the 
affairs  of  both,  especially  at  Whetstone,  (Spotted  Tail's,)  as  circum 
stances  permitted,  and  rendered  a  report,  signed  by  us,  and  dated  Red 
Cloud  agency,  Wyoming  Territory,  June  16,  1873.  That  paper  did  not 
appear  as  part  of  the  annual  report  of  the  Indian  Office  for  1873,  and 
has  never  been  published,  I  believe,  but  I  know  it  reached  the  Depart 
ment  and  it  is  undoubtedly  on  file  there.  From  the  original  draught,  in 
my  handwriting  and  now  before  me,  1  quote  the  passages  which  bear 
most  directly  upon  the  subject  of  this  letter : 

Messrs.  Kemble  and  Alvord  together  visited  the  Whetstone  agency  at  its  new  location 
during  the  weekending  June  14,  1873.  *  The  quantity  of  beef  actually 

received  by  the  Whetstone  agent  during  the  past  year  was  unquestionably  greatly  less  than 
that  receipted  for  to  the  contractor;  the  amount  really  delivered  to  the  Indians  far  less  than 
appears  upon  the  provision  returns,  and  the  Indians  reported  thereon  as  receiving  subsist 
ence  much  in  excess  of  the  true  number.  In  brief,  while  unable  for  want  of  specific  data 
to  make  a  detailed  report  on  the  points  specially  referred  to  them,  your  commissioners 
found  such  a  state  of  irregularity,  confusion,  and  corruption  at  this  agency,  the  result  of  the 
management  of  the  late  agent,  that  they  recommend  a  special  investigation  of  its  affairs 
covering  his  whole  term,  and  the  suspension  of  a  settlement  of  his  accounts  and  outstand 
ing  vouchers  and  indebtedness  certified  by  him  until  such  investigation  can  be  had.  Dur 
ing  the  brief  visit  of  your  commissioners  at  this  place,  they  searched  diligently  for  informa 
tion  on  the  late  operations  there,  and  have  in  possession  many  facts  not  called  for  by  their 
instiuctions,  but  which  are  at  the  disposal  of  your  Office,  either  in  the  form  of  notes  or  as  a 
special  report.  They  are  also  prepared  to  offer  suggestions  on  various  points  relating  to  the 
management  of  both  these  agencies  visited  by  them,  as  the  result  of  their  observations 
here. 

As  Colonel  Kemble  and  myself  were  about  to  separate,  he  continuing 
in  the  Indian  service  while  I  returned  home,  we  put  the  facts  we  had 
gathered,  with  the  sources  of  our  information,  names  of  witnesses,  &c., 
into  the  form  of  miscellaneous  notes.  I  think  Colonel  Kemble  prepared 
the  paper.  We  both  signed  it,  and  it  remained  in  his  charge. 

The  authorities  of  the  Indian  Office  and  Interior  Department  never 
called  on  us  for  a  supplemental  report,  and,  so  far  as  1  know,  our 
"notes"  were  not  asked  for.  Inspector  Kemble  probably  knows  where 
that  paper  is.  I  have  the  note-book  from  which  it  was  largely  com 
piled,  but  not  in  a  form  to  enable  me  to  make  a  duplicate. 

Subsequently,  at  the  request  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners, 
for  their  use  while  considering  some  large  accounts  for  beef  claimed  as 
delivered  at  Spotted  Tail's  camp,  I  prepared  and  forwarded  to  Washing 
ton  "Additional  Notes  of  Whetstone  Agency.7'  This  document  must 
also  be  among  the  official  records. 

Messrs,  Kemble  and  Alvord,  because  of  their  instructions,  and  for 
other  good  reasons,  (which  could  be  easily  explained,  but  need  not  be 
here  given,)  confined  their  official  report  to  the  affairs  at  Whetstone 
agency  ;  also  most  of  the  "  notes"  above  mentioned  ;  but  as  indicated 
in  the  last  paragraph  quoted  above,  they  obtained  considerable  infor 
mation  also,  during  their  service  together,  as  to  the  Ked  Cloud  agency 
affairs.  The  original  memoranda  as  to  both  agencies  I  still  have. 

I  returned  to  Washington  June  30,  1873,  presented  in  person  the  re 
port  of  our  full  commission,  and  spent  the  greater  part  of  that  day  and 
the  next  (July  1)  at  the  Interior  Department,  where  I  met  the  Commis- 
sio  er  of  Indian  Affairs  and  Acting  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  gave 
them  verbal  explanations  and  additional  information.  I  was  then  at 


766 

the  Department  more  or  less  every  week  in  July,  and  I  repeatedly  urged 
upon  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  and  the  Secretary  and  Assist 
ant  Secretary  of  the  Interior  action  upon  the  report  of  Colonel  Kemble 
and  myself. 

As  the  special  investigation  of  Whetstone  affairs  which  we  recom 
mended  was  nominally  made,  and  resulted  in  a  report  denying  the 
u  irregularity,  confusion,  and  corruption"  which  we  had  declared  ex 
isting  there,  I  must  here  re-affirm  the  statements,  over  the  signatures  of 
E.  C.  Kemble  and  myself,  above  quoted,  and  add  that  there  was  no  pos 
sibility  of  our  being  mistaken  or  deceived  ;  that  the  fact  that  the  former 
agent  absconded  with  his  confidential  clerk  and  all  the  records  of  his 
agency,  just  prior  to  our  arrival,  confirmed  our  statement ;  that  the  facts 
A\e  reported  were  never  questioned,  but  generally  admitted  in  my  per 
sonal  interviews  with  the  chief  officials  of  the  Interior  Department ;  and 
that  Colonel  Kemble  and  myself  placed  at  the  disposal  of  the  Depart 
ment  such  evidence  and  data  as  would  have  led  inevitably,  in  the  hands 
of  any  competent  and  honest  investigator  or  prosecutor,  to  the  full  con 
firmation  of  our  charge  of  corruption,  and  to  the  conviction  of  the  ab 
sconding  and  defrauding  official. 

But  as  our  report  was  so  officially  denied  and  disregarded,  it  seems 
necessary  to  seek  an  explanation.  This  is  easily  found  in  the  fact  that 
the  person  to  whom  was  assigned  this  special  investigation  of  Whetstone 
agency  affairs  icas  the  Red  Cloud  agent,  who  could  not  have  exposed  in  de 
tail  the  irregularities  and  corruption  of  his  neighbor  without  implicating 
himself.  I  dislike  to  make  this  assertion,  but  it  is  my  firm  belief,  based 
upon  my  own  observation  there  and  subsequent  examination  of  official 
records. 

The  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  the  Assistant  Secretary,  and  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  were  made  personally  acquainted  with  the 
condition  of  affairs  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  as  known 
to  Colonel  Kemble  and  myself,  in  July.  1873,  and  were  verbally  given  so 
many  details  of  the  facts  constituting  the  irregularities,  confusion,  and 
corruption  which  we  reported,  that  when  I  came  North  in  August,  I 
felt  certain  they  were  convinced  of  the  necessity  of  special  watchfulness 
and  thorough  reformation  in  the  Indian  affairs  of  that  region.  I  cannot 
understand  how  they  could  be  satisfied  with  the  brief  and  general  denial 
of  the  inspector,  especially  when  official  documents  on  file  within  their 
reach,  and  to  which  I  had  called  attention,  utterly  refuted  his  report 

I  have  had  no  official  connection  with  Indian  affairs  since  July,  1873, 
save  a  brief  correspondence  about  two  years  ago  when  requested  to 
serve  on  a  special  commission  to  the  Southwest  with  Commissioner 
Smith  and  the  governor  of  Texas,  and  unable  to  do  so. 

The  u  alleged  frauds  and  mismanagement"  spoken  of  in  your  letter 
refers.  I  presume,  to  the  charges  preferred  by  Prof.  O.  C.  Marsh  in  a  let 
ter  addressed  to  the  President  of  the  United  States,  in  relation  to  the 
Red  Cloud  agency. 

You  will  see  from  what  I  have  already  written  that  I  have  no  personal 
knowledge  of  those  matters. 

But  in  reading  Professor  Marsh's  charges  and  specifications,  I  at  once 
noticed  the  resemblance  between  his  statements  and  the  facts  which  I 
had  in  part  discovered  and  reported  to  the  Department  from  the  same 
ground  two  years  before.  His  representation  of  the  inefficiency  and 
guilt  of  the  Red  Cloud  agent  in  1874  and  1875  was  almost  a  duplicate 
of  our  report  on  the  Spotted  Tail  agent  in  1872  and  1873. 

Professor  Marsh  believed  the  number  of  Indians  at  the  Red  Cloud 
agency  largely  overestimated  in  the  last  quarter  of  1874.  Messrs.  Keiu- 


767 

"ble  and  Alvord  presented  to  the  Department,  in  July,  1S73,  conclusive 
evidence  that  the  number  of  Indians  borne  on  the  provision-returns  of 
the  Whetstone  agency  for  the  same  period  in  1872  was  at  least  50  per 
cent,  above  the  actual  number  fed,  and  that  there  was  then  also  a  simi 
lar  overestimate  at  the  lied  Cloud  agency. 

The  frauds  in  beef  cattle,  both  as  to  number  and  weight,  as  stated  to 
have  occurred  in  1874-75  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  were, 
if  true,  but  repetitions  of  like  transactions  on  the  same  ground  in  1872-'73, 
which  were  by  me  reported  to  the  Department.  I  witnessed  an  issue 
at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  June  17,  1873,  of  poor  animals,  and  many  of 
them  but  one  or  two  years  old,  which  weighed  only  from  300  (or  less)  to 
650  pounds  each,  but  were  receipted  for  as  averaging  875  pounds.  I 
followed  several  thousand  hides  from  the  hands  of  the  Indians  who  took 
them  from  the  animals  issued,  through  the  trading-houses  at  Spotted 
Tail's  and  Red  Cloud's,  to  Omaha,  where  they  were  fully  identified. 
They  were  there  averaged  by  actual  weighing.  They  were  compared  with 
large  quantities  of  hides  coining  from  different  places,  and  the  opinion  of 
experts  was  obtained  as  to  the  weight  of  the  animals  from  which  they 
were  taken,  considering  all  the  circumstances  of  season,  condition,  butch 
ering,  and  transportation.  For  a  lot  of  about  7,000  hides  from  animals 
killed  at  the  two  agencies  named  between  July,  1872.  and  May,  1873, 
the  nearly  uniform  opinion  was  that  the  cattle,  when  butchered,  averaged 
less  than  800  pounds  5  but  during  this  period  the  receipts  of  the  agents 
were  for  cattle  averaging  from  900  to  1,025  pounds.  This  agreed  writh 
my  own  experience.  1  have  handled  a  good  many  beef-cattle  from  Texas, 
and  often  seen  large  herds  weighed  or  averaged  for  sale,  but  I  never 
saw  a  herd  of  any  size  averaged  at  as  high  a  weight  as  a  thousand 
pounds  each.  As  a  chance  example  of  the  weight  of  Texas  beef-cattle, 
1  mention  a  memorandum  now  before  me,  of  286  head  of  fully  matured 
unusually  choice  animals,  in  fine  order,  which  I  procured  in  the  fall  of 
1872,  within  a  hundred  miles  of  their  native  pasture.  These  were  aver 
aged  after  the  manner  of  the  country,  and  the  owner  was  fully  satisfied 
with  the  weight,  which  was  fixed  at  900  pounds  each. 

Inferior  flour  was  seen  at  Red  Cloud's  in  1874.  In  1873  I  reported  to 
the  Department  a  lot  of  over  400,000  pounds  of  worthless  stuff  called 
flour,  seen  by  me  lying  out  of  doors  at  Spotted  TaU's,  fast  going  to  de 
cay.  And  of  this  1,200  sacks  had  then  been,  under  a  Government  con 
tract,  recently  moved  with  the  agency,  at  a  cost  of  $1.50  per  sack,  after 
its  condition  was  such  that  the  Indians  would  not  touch  it,  and  their 
ponies  even  refused  to  eat  it  in  midwinter. 

A  fraud  in  transportation  is  stated  by  Professor  Marsh.  A  parallel 
case  was  reported  by  me  to  the  Department,  where,  early  in  1873,  the 
Whetstone  agent  attached  his  official  certificate,  vouching  in  the  strong 
est  terms  to  the  accuracy  of  an  account  for  transportation  amounting 
to  $33,541.89,  when  he  knew  that,  instead  of  over  two  millions  of  pounds 
of  freight  charged  for,  less  than  one  million  was  actually  carried,  and 
that  the  distance  of  seventy-five  miles  allowed  was  in  reality  not  over 
thirty-five  miles.  This  voucher,  covering  what  is  known  as  "  the  Graves 
transportation  contract,"  is  referred  to  in  the  official  files  in  "  Whetstone 
R.,  139,  of  1873."  It  was  received  at  the  Indian  Office  June  24,  1873  ; 
and  on  my  representation  of  its  nature,  a  few  days  later,  to  the  Acting 
Secretary  of  the  Interior,  its  payment  was  suspended.  I  trust  that  that 
is  still  its  status,  and  that  it  can  be  found  on  file.  But,  so  far  as  I  know, 
nothing  has  been  done  to  bring  to  justice  the  guilty  official  who,  by  his 
signature,  became  a  party  to  this  single  fraud  of  $25,000.  And  now  it 
seems  probable  that  the  same  imposition  was  successfully  carried  out  in 
the  same  locality  two  years  later. 


768 

Although  I  give  you  no  testimony  as  to  the  specific  cases  with  the 
investigation  of  which  you  are  charged,  I  have  felt  it  ray  duty,  under 
your  call,  to  submit,  in  corroboration  thereof,  this  incomplete  record  of 
iny  knowledge  of  frauds  and  mismanagement  in  Indian  affairs. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

HENRY  E.  ALVORD. 
Hon.  THOS.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman  Special  Indian  Commission, 

JEbbitt  House ,  Washington,  D.  C. 

COMMONWEALTH  OF  MASSACHUSETTS, 

Hampshire,  ss  .* 

SEPTEMBER  13,  A.  D.  1875. 

Then  the  above-named  Henry  E.  Alvord  personally  appeared,  arid  made  solemn  oath  to 
the  truth  of  the  above  and  foregoing  document,  by  him  written  and   subscribed,  before  me. 
[SEAL.]  WM.  G.  BASSETT, 

Notary  Public. 


LETTER  FROM  HON.  FELIX  R.  BRUNOT. 

VERONA  STATION,  A.  Y.  R.  R., 

September  11, 1875. 

DEAR,  SIR  :  Your  letter  of  9th  instant,  informing  me  that  the  commis 
sion  of  which  you  are  chairman  will  remain  in  session  during  ten  days 
in  Washington,  and  inviting  me  to  meet  the  commission,  or,  if  I  cannot 
do  so,  to  "  forward  a  full  statement  of  all  matters  within  your  (my) 
knowledge  touching  such  frauds  or  mismanagement,  and  especially  any 
knowledge  you  may  have  showing  that  the  Department  of  the  Interior 
knew  of  the  same,  or  knew  of  any  other  frauds,"  is  received,  and  I  have 
the  honor  to  reply  : 

It  will  not  be  convenient  for  me  to  visit  Washington,  nor,  from  my 
present  views  of  duty,  do  I  feel  called  upon  to  make  any  detailed  state 
ment  upon  the  points  in  question. 

As  chairman  of  the  old  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  I  had  frequent 
occasion  to  invite  the  attention  of  the  Interior  Department  to  abuses  in 
the  Indian  service.  The  correspondence  is  on  tile  in  that  Department, 
and  also  in  the  Office  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners. 

The  correspondence  of  the  executive  committee  is  also  on  file  in  the 
same  offices,  together  with  reports,  affidavits,  statements,  &c.,  which 
influenced  the  conclusions  of  the  board,  and  the  last  annual  report  of 
the  board  is  in  print.  To  these  papers  I  beg  leave  to  refer  your  com 
mission. 

Appreciating  the  difficulties  of  your  position,  and  sincerely  hoping 
that  you  may  reach  a  right  conclusion, 

I  am,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

FELIX  R.  BRUNOT. 

Hon.  THOS.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman. 


769 


LETTER  FROM  THOMAS  K.  CREE. 

PITTSBURGH,  September  16,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  have  to  apologize  for  seeming  neglect  of  your  communication 
of  September  9,  which  reached  me  here  after  several  days'  delay. 

In  reply,  I  have  the  honor  to  say  that  it  is  not  convenient  for  me  to 
visit  Washington  at  the  present  time  for  the  purpose  of  appearing  be 
fore  your  committee,  nor  have  1  any  statement  to  make  in  regard  to  the 
subject  under  investigation. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

THOMAS  K.  CREE. 
Hon.  THOMAS  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman  of  Commission,  &c. 

49  I  F 


APPENDIX. 


BEEF. 

CONTRACT   WITH   J.    K.    FOREMAN. 

Articles  of  agreement  made  and  entered  into,'  this  14th  day  of  July,  eighteen  hundred 
and  seventy-four,  by  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  and  in 
behalf  of  the  United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  J.  K.  Foremen,  of  Omaha,  Nebraska, 
of  the  second  part,  witnesseth  : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself,  his  heirs,  executors,  and  adminis 
trators,  hereby  covenants  and  agrees  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part,  to  furnish 
and  deliver  at  the  place  within  named,  to  such  agent  or  agents  of  the  United  States  as 
may  be  appointed  to  receive  them,  according  to  the  terms  of  the  annexed  advertise 
ment,  tti*e  beef  embraced  and  at  the  prices  named  in  the  schedule  hereunto  annexed, 
which  schedule  it  is  agreed  shall  form  a  part  of  this  agreement. 

The  party  of  the  first  part,  however,  reserves  the  right  to  require  a  greater  or  less 
quantity,  not  exceeding  25  per  cent,  in  either  case,  of  any  of  the  articles  than  that 
specified  in  said  schedule,  at  the  price  or  prices  therein  stated,  of  which  increase  or 
decrease  in  the  quantity  required  a  reasonable  notice  should  be  given  to  the  party  of 
the  second  part. 

It  is  also  further  agreed  between  the  parties. hereto,  that  all  the  beef  offered  for  ac 
ceptance  under  this  contract  shall  be  subject  to  a  thorough  inspection,  aiifl.  if  on  such 
inspection  any  of  it  fail  to  conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall 
be  rejected  by  the  parties  making  the  inspection,  who  shall  have  authority  to  require 
of  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  the  delivery  within  five  days  after  such  rejection 
of  proper  beef  in  the  place  of  that  rejected.  In  case  said  party  of  the  second  part  shall 
fail  to  deliver  proper  beef  within  the  said  period  of  five  days,  then  the  said  party  of 
the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or  cause  to  be  purchased,  in  open  market, 
or  otherwise,  such  beef  as  may  be  required  to  supply  the  deficiency,  and  it  is  agreed 
and  understood  by  the  party  of  the  second  part,  that  he  and  his  sureties  shall  be  held 
accountable  under  the  bond  which  may  be  given  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this 
contract,  or  any  excess  in  the  cost  of  the  beef  so  purchased,  over  and  above  what  the 
same  would  cost  at  the  price  designated  in  said  schedule. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay,  or  cause  to  be  paid,  to  the  said  party  of  the 
second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  for  all  the  beef  received  under  this 
contract  at  the  rate  or  price  designated  on  said  schedule,  payment  to  be  made  on  the 
receipts  of  the  respective  agents  after  they  shall  have  been  properly  approved. 

It  is  agreed,  however,  that  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this  contract, 
a  bond  in  the  sum  of  $150,000  shall  be  executed  by  said  party  of  the  second  part,  with 
two  or  more  good  and  sufficient  sureties,  said  bond  to  be  conditioned  for  the  faithful 
performance  of  this  contract  in  all  its  particulars  by  the  said  party  of  the  second  part. 

It  is  hereby  expressly  understood  that  no  member  of  Congress  shall  be  admitted  to 
any  share  or  part  of  this  contract,  or  any  benefit  to  arise  therefrom,  which  provision  is 
hereby  inserted  in  compliance  with  the  third  section  of  an  act  concerning  public  con 
tracts  approved  April  21,  1808,  and  it  is  further  understood  that  the  provisions  con 
tained  in  the  first  section  of  said  act  are  hereby  made  a  part  and  parcel  of  this  agree 
ment. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the 
day  and  year  first  above  written. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 
JAMES  K.  FOREMAN.    [SEAL.] 

Bond. 

Know  all  men  by  these  present  that  we.  J.  K.  Foreman,  of  Omaha,  Nebraska,  as  prin 
cipal,  and  James  W.  Bosler  and  Joseph  Bosler,  as  sureties,  are  held  and  firmly  bound 
unto  the  United  States  of  America  in  the  sum  of  $150,000,  lawful  money  of  the  said 
United  States,  for  which  payment,  well  and  truly  to  be  made,  we  hereby  bind  ourselves 


772 

and  each  of  us,  our  heirs,  executors,  and  administrators,  jointly  and  severally,  firmly  by 
these  presents. 

The  condition  of  this  obligation  is  such  that  if  the  above- bounden  J.  K.  Foreman, 
their  heirs,  executors,  and  administrators,  or  any  of  them,  shall  observe,  perform,  and  ful 
fill  all  and  singular  the  covenants  and  agreements  mentioned  and  contained  in  a  certain 
contract  of  even  date  herewith  between  the  United  States,  by  Edward  P.  Smith,  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  the  said  J.  K.  Foreman,  then 'and  in  that  case  this  obli 
gation  shall  be  null  and  void  ;  otherwise  to  remain  in  full  force  and  virtue. 

In  testimony  whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  and  seals  this  14th  dav  of  July, 
A.  D.  1874. 

JAMES  K.  FOREMAN.  [SEAT,] 
JAMES  W.  BOSLER.  [SEAL.] 
JOSEPH  BOSLER.  [SEAL.] 

Witnesses  to  J.  K.  Foreman  : 
M.  C.  HERMAN. 
DAVID  B.  HERMAN. 
AVitu  esses  to  J.  W.  Bosler : 
M.  C.  HERMAN. 
DAVID  B.  HERMAN. 
A.  L.  SPONSLER,  & 
ISAAC  ELLIOTT,  as  to  Joseph  Bosler. 

STATE  or  PENNSYLVANIA, 

Cumberland  County,  ss : 

Before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  and  State,  personally  appeared 
James  W.  Bosler,  one  of  the  sureties  above  named,  who,  being  duly  sworn  according  to 
law,  says  that  he  is  worth  the  sum  of  one  hundred  and  fifty  thousand  dollars  over  and 
above  all  debts,  incumbrances,  obligations,  or  liabilities  whatever. 

JAMES  W.  BOSLER. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  before  me  this  14th  dav  of  Julv,  1874. 

[SEAL.]  A.  L.  SPONSLER,  N.  P. 

STATE  OF  PENNSYLVANIA, 

Cumberland  County,  ss  : 

Before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  and  State,  personally  appeared 
Joseph  Bosler,  one  of  the  sureties  above  named,  who  being  duly  sworn  according  to 
law,  says  that  he  is  worth  the  sum  of  seventy-five  thousand  dollars  over  and  above  all 
debts,  incumbrances,  obligations,  or  liabilities  whatever. 

JOSEPH  BOSLER. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  before  me  this  14th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1874. 

[SEAL.]  A.  L.  SPONSLER,  X.  P. 

Whereas  a  certain  contract  to  supply  the  Indian  Bureau  of  the  United  States  Gov 
ernment  with  beef-cattle  on  the  hoof,  at  Yancton,  Whetstone,  Upper  Missouri,  Grand 
River,  Cheyenne,  and  Red  Cloud  Indian  agencies,  from  the  1st  day  of  July,  1874,  until 
the  1st  day  of  July,  1875,  was  recently  awarded  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
on  the  part  of  the  United  States  Government,  to  me,  the  undersigned  J.  K.  Foreman, 
of  Omaha,  Nebraska,  which  contract  I  did  on  the  14th  day  of  July,  1874,  bind  myself 
fully  on  my  part  to  execute  and  perform  according  to  the  terms  and  conditions  of  said 
contract,  as  by  reference  thereto  will  fully  appear  ;  and  whereas  I  am  now  desirous  of 
assigning  and  handing  over  the  said  contract,  with  all  my  right,  title,  and  interest 
therein,  and  all  the  moneys,  profits,  and  emoluments  belonging  to  or  in  any  way  aris 
ing  therefrom,  to  W.  A.  Paxton,  of  Omaha,  Nebraska,  so  that  I  shall  have  no  further 
interest  in  or  control  over  the  same : 

Now,  therefore,  be  it  known,  that  for  a  valuable  consideration  to  me  in  hand  paid  by 
the  said  W.  A.  Paxton,  the  receipt  of  which  is  hereby  acknowledged,  I  do  hereby  assign, 
transfer,  and  set  over  unto  the  said  W.  A.  Paxton,  his  executors,  administrators,  and 
assigns,  all  my  right,  title,  and  interest  in  and  to  the  said  contract,  with  the  right  to 
receive  for  his  own  use  all  the  moneys,  profits,  and  emoluments  belonging  to  or  in  any 
way  arising  therefrom  ;  the  said  W.  A.  Paxton,  his  executors,  administrators,  and 
assigns  to  have  full  control  of  the  said  contract  for  his  own  use  and  behoof  without 
any  interference  whatsoever  by  or  from  me  or  from  any  person  or  persons  claiming  by, 
under,  or  through  me. 

In  witness  whereof  I  have  hereunto  set  my  hand  and  seal  this  30th  day  of  July,  A.  D. 
1874. 

JAMES  K.  FOREMAN. 

Witness : 

M.  C.  HERMAN. 
DAVID  B.  HERMAN. 


Shcedule  of  articles  referred  to  in  the  foregoing  contract  betiveen  the  United  States,  by  E,  P. 
Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  J.  R.  Foreman,  of  the  city  of  Omaha,  Nebraska. 

Articles. 

22,500,000  pounds  of  beef,  to  average  850  pounds  from  July  1, 1874,  to  January  1, 
1875,  and  1,000  pounds  from  January  1  to  July  1,  1875,  to  be  delivered  as  follows,  viz  : 
1,500,000  pounds  at  Yancton  agency. 
5, 400,  000  pounds  at  Whetstone  agency. 
1,  800,  000  pounds  at  Upper  Missouri  agency. 
5,  000,  000  pounds  at  Grand  River  agency. 
3,  400,  000  pounds  at  Cheyenne  agency. 
5,  400,  000  pounds  at  Red'  Cloud  agency. 


22,  500,  000  pounds,  at  $2.30^  per  100  pounds. 


CORRESPONDENCE   ABOUT   ADDITIONAL   SUPPLY. 

The  following  is  the  correspondence  relative  to  the  additional  supply  of  beef  under 
the  above  contract,  which  had  been  assigned  to  W.  A.  Paxtou  : 

Commissioner  Smith  to  W.  A.  Paxton. 

DEPARTMENT  OP  THE  INTERIOR, 
OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  March  13,  1875. 

SIR  :  You  will  please  furnish  for  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  on  the 
requisitions  of  the  respective  agents,  beef  in  the  amount  of  the  25  per  cent,  increase 
provided  for  under  the  contract  of  J.  K.  Foreman  with  this  Department  of  July  14, 
1874,  assigned  to  you  July  30,  1874. 

Very  respectfully,  vour  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner 
W.  A.  PAXTON,  Esq., 

Omaha,  Ntb. 


W.  A.  Paxton  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  March  13, 1875. 

SIR  :  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  this  date,  calling  upon  me,  as  contractor  for 
beef  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  to  be  prepared  to  furnish  the  Govern 
ment  with  25  per  cent,  in  addition  to  the  amount  contracted  for,  in  accordance  with  a 
provision  in  the  contract  giving  the  Government  their  election  to  this  amount,  and  in 
reference  to  which  I  have  to  say,  that  I  am  not  prepared  to  funish  any  further  amount 
of  beef-cattle  than  the  amount  named  in  my  contract  at  the  price  named  in  said  con 
tract,  and  must  decline  to  make'  any  further  deliveries. 

My  reasons  for  refusing  are,  that  I  have  filled  my  contract,  which  took  all  of  the 
cattle  I  had  on  hand.  The  Government,  by  delaying  their  notification  that  they  would 
require  an  increased  amount,  under  the  clause  in  the  contract  requiring  the  contractor 
to  have  a  reasonable  notice,  have  no  further  claim  upon  me  under  this  provision. 

The  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  are  so  far  distant  from  the  source  of  supplies 
that  are  available,  that  it  would  be  impossible  for  rue  to  comply  with  your  requisition 
without  great  loss. 

Very  respectfully, 

W.  A.  PAXTON, 

Contractor. 
Hon.  EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


774 

*    Commissioner  Smith  to  W.  A.  Paxton. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  or  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  1).  C.,  March  15,  1875. 

SIR:  Yours  of  the  13th  instant,  declining,  for  reasons  stated  therein,  to  furnish  any 
further  supply  of  beef  for  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies,  as  requested  in  Office 
letter  of  same  date,  has  been  received,  and  I  have  now  to  request  to  be  informed 
whether  or  not  you  are  prepared  to  make  any  proposition  in  the  premises,  with  a  view 
of  supplying  the  .beef  at  present  required  for  the  agencies  named  ;  and,  if  so,  what  f 
Very  respe'ctfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
W.  A.  PAXTON,  Esq., 

Omaha,  Nebr. 


IV.  A.  Paxton  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  March  15,  1875. 

SIR  :  In  answer  to  your  communication  of  this  date,  I  have  to  say  that  I  will  furnish 
you  any  further  amount  of  beef-cattle  that  you  may  require,  more  than  the  amount 
named  in  my  contract,  at  an  increase  of  one  cent  per  pound,  being  three  dollars  and  thirty 
and  one-thirtieth  cents  (3.30;/(,)  per  one  hundred  pounds  gross. 
Very  respectfully, 

W.  A.  PAXTON. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Secretary  Delano. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  March  15,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  report,  that  on  the  13th  instant  this  Office  called  upon  Mr. 
W.  A.  Paxton,  contractor,  to  furnish  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies  with  the 
25  per  cent,  increase  of  beef  provided  for  under  his  contract  with  this  Office. 

On  same  date  Mr.  Paxton  replies,  declining  to  furuish  the  beef  requested,  for  the  rea 
son  that  he,  not  having  been  notified  within  a  reasonable  time  that  said  additional 
beef  would  be  required,  considers  his  contract  for  said  agencies  filled. 

The  contract  provides  that  notice  for  furnishing  the  additional  25  per  cent,  increase 
shall  be  given  within  a  reasonable  time.  This  notice,  however,  could  not  be  given 
sooner,  owing  to  the  want  of  funds,  the  law  prohibiting  any  contract  beyond  the  funds 
on  hand  and  applicable. 

On  this  date  a  letter  was  addressed  to  Mr.  Paxton,  asking  whether  he  was  prepared 
to  make  any  proposition  with  a  view  to  supplying  the  additional  beef  required  for  the 
agencies  above  named;  to  which  he  replies  that  he  will  furnish  the  quantity  required 
at  an  increase  of  one  cent  per  pound  gross,  making  the  price  $3.30-3l,j  per  100  pounds 
instead  of  $2.30y-(T. 

The  two  letters  of  Mr.  Paxton  are  inclosed  herewith,  and  I  have  respectfully  to 
suggest  that  the  same  be  submitted  to  the  honorable  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
for  its  views. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
Hon.  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


f'ecrefary  Delano  to  Commissioner  Smith, 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  March  17,  1875. 

SIR  :  I  retain  ncicWitn  tue  letters  ot  W.  A.  Paxton  which  accompanied  your  report 
of  the  15th  iii8iai.it,  relative  to  furnishing  beef  for  the  Indian  service  at  the  Red  Cloud 
and  Whetstone  agencies  during  the  remainder  of  the  iiscal  year. 

I  transmit  a  copy  of  a  communication  of  this  date  from  the  Board  of  Indian  Com- 


775 

missioners,  by  its  secretary,  to  which  the  subject  was  referred,  and,  agreeably  to  the 
recommendation  therein  contained,  authority  is  hereby  granted  to  contract  with  W.  A. 
Paxton  for  such  quantity  of  beef  as  may  be  required  at  the  agencies  named  for  the  time 
specified,  at  the  cost  of  3  cents  per  pound,  gross,  deliverable  at  said  agencies. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 
The  COMMISSIONER  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS. 


F.  H.  Smith  to  Secretary  Delano. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  D.  C'.,  March  17,  1875. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  to  acknowledge,  by  reference  from  your  Office,  a  letter  from 
Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  of  the  15th  instant,  inclosing  two 
letters  from  W.  A.  Paxton,  relative  to  a  further  supply  of  beef  for  Red  Cloud  and 
Whetstone  agencies. 

I  am  instructed  by  the  purchasing-committee  of  this  board  to  respectfully  recom 
mend  that  a  contract  be  made  with  the  present  contractor,  W.  A.  Paxton,  for  the 
supply  of  such  quantity  of  beef  as  the  Department  may  require  at  said  agencies  dur 
ing  the  remainder  of  the  present  fiscal  year  at  the  price  of  3  cents  per  pound  on  the 
hoof,  delivered  at  the  respective  agencies. 

The  committee  believe,  considering  the  exigency  requiring  immediate  delivery,  it  is 
not  practicable  to  advertise  for  this  additional  supply  under  circumstances  that  would 
be  likely  to  meet  the  requirements  of  the  service  in  respect  to  promptness  of  delivery, 
and  they  regard  the  price  named,  which,  after  verbal  consultation,  it  is  understood  the 
contractor  will  accept,  as  reasonable  for  beef  to  be  purchased  at  this  season  of  the 
year. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

F.  H.  SMITH, 

Secretary. 
Hon.  C.  DELANO. 

Secretary  of  the  Interior. 


CONTRACT   WITH    W.    A.    PAXTON    FOR   ADDITIONAL   SUPPLY. 

Articles  of  agreement  made  and  entered  into  this  17th  day  of  March,  A.  D.  eighteen 
hundred  and  seventy-five,  by  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  and  in 
behalf  of  the  United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  W.  A.  Paxton,  of  Omaha,  Nebr.,  of 
the  second  part,  wituesseth: 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself,  heirs,  executors,  and  administra 
tors,  hereby  covenant  and  agree  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  to  furnish  and 
deliver,  at  the  places  herein  designated,  to  such  agent  or  agents  of  the  United  States  as 
may  be  appointed  to  receive  it,  beef-cattle,  on  the  hoof,,  in  the  quantities  and  at  the 
prices  herein  stated. 


Quantity, 
pounds. 

Place  of  delivery. 

Times  of  delivery. 

Kind  of  cattle. 

Price. 
Gross  weight 
per  100  Ibs. 

5,  000r  000 

Red   Cloud    and    Spotted 
Tail  Indian  agencies. 

On  the  orders  of  the 
respective  Indian 
agents. 

Good  merchantable  heef- 
cattle,  averaging  850 
pounds  gross. 

$3  CO 

The  party  of  the  first  part,  however,  reserves  the  right  to  require  a  greater  or  less 
quantity,  not  exceeding  twenty-five  per  cent,  in  either  case,  than  that  specified  in  said 
schedule,  at  the  price  or  prices  therein  stated,  of  which  increase  or  decrease  in  the  quan 
tity  required  a  reasonable  notice  shall  be  given  to  the  party  of  the  second  part. 

The  party  of  the  second  part  agrees  to  keep  the  beef- cattle  in  the  vicinity  of  the 
places  of  delivery,  to  be  delivered  when  required;  and  should  he  fail  to  collect  cattle 
at  such  points  fast  enough,  or  should  he  fail  to  deliver  them  as  required,  the  party  of 
the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or  cause  to  be  purchased,  beef-cattle  as 
ho  may  elect,  at  the  expense  of  the  party  of  the  second  part. 


776 

It  is  also  further  agreed  between  the  parties  hereto  that  if  any  of  the  cattle  offered 
for  acceptance  shall  fail  to  conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall 
be  rejected  by  the  agent  to  whom  the  same  is  offered,  who  shall  have  authority  to  re 
quire  of  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  the  delivery,  within  five  days  after  such 
rejection,  of  proper  cattle  in  the  place  of  those  rejected ;  and  in  case  the  said  party  of 
the  second  part  shall  fail  to  deliver  cattle  of  the  kind  required  within  the  said  period 
of  five  days,  then  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or 
cause  to  be  purchased,  in  open  market,  or  otherwise,  such  cattle  as  may  be  required  to 
supply  the  deficiency.  And  it  is  agreed  and  understood  by  the  parties  hereto  that  the 
said  party  of  the  second  part  and  his  sureties  shall  be  held  accountable,  under  the 
bond  which  may  be  given  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract,  for  any  excess 
in  the  cost  of  the  cattle  so  purchased  over  and  above  what  the  same  articles  would 
have  cost  at  the  price  or  prices  designated  in  said  schedule. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay,  or  cause  to  be  paid,  to  the  said  party  of  the 
second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  for  all  the  cattle  received  under 
this  contract,  at  the  rate  or  price  designated  in  the  above  schedule  ;  payment  to  be 
made  on  presentation,  at  the  office  of  Indian  affairs,  of  proper  receipts  of  the  respective 
agents,  after  the  same  shall  have  been  properly  approved. 

It  is  agreed,  however,  that,  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this  contract, 
a  bond,  in  the  sum  of  forty  thousand  dollars,  shall  be  executed  by  the  said  party  of  the 
second  part,  with  two  or  more  good  and  sufficient  sureties  ;  said  bond  to  be  conditioned 
for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract,  in  all  its  particulars,  by  the  said  party  of 
the  second  part. 

It  is  hereby  expressly  understood  that  no  member  of  Congress  shall  be  admitted  to 
any  share  or  part  of  this  contract,  or  any  benefit  to  arise  therefrom,  which  provision  is 
hereby  inserted  in  compliance  with  the  third  section  of  an  act  concerning  public  con 
tracts,  approved  the  21st  of  April,  1808;  and  it  is  further  understood  that  the  provisions 
contained  in  the  first  section  of  said  act  are  hereby  made  a  part  and  parcel  of  this 
agreement. 

In  witness  whereof,  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the 
day  and  year  first  above  written. 

EDWARD  P.  SMITH,  [L.  s.] 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

W.  A.  PAXTON,  [L.  s.] 

Signed  in  presence  of — 
F.  J.  DEWITT. 
T.  S.  CLAKKSOX. 

Bond. 

Know  all  men  by  these  presents,  that  we,  W.  A.  Paxton,  as  principal,  and  James  W. 
Bosler  and  Joseph  Bosler,  as  sureties,  are  held  and  firmly  bound  unto  the  United  States 
of  America  in  the  sum  of  forty  thousand  dollars,  lawful  money  of  the  said  United 
States,  for  which  payment,  well  and  truly  to  be  made,  we  hereby  bind  ourselves,  and 
each  of  us,  our  heirs,  executors,  and  administrators,  jointly  and  severally,  firmly  by 
these  presents. 

The  condition  of  this  obligation  is  such  that,  if  the  above-bounden  W.  A.  Paxton, 
James  W.  Bosler,  and  Joseph  Bosler,  their  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  or  any 
of  them,  shall  observe,  perform,  and  fulfill,  all  and  singular  the  covenants  and  agree 
ments  mentioned  and  contained  in  a  certain  contract  of  even  date  herewith,  between 
the  United  States,  by  E.  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  the  said  W.  A. 
Paxton,  then  and  in  that  case  this  obligation  shall  be  null  and  void;  otherwise  to  re 
main  in  full  force  and  virtue. 

In  testimony  whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  and  seals  this  17th  day  of 
March,  A.  D.  1875. 

W.  A.  PAXTON.        [L.  s.] 
J.  W.  BOSLER,         [L.  s.] 
JOSEPH  BOSLER.  [L.  s.l 
Witness: 

A.  L.  SPOXSLER. 
H.  NEWSHAM. 

STATE  OF  PRNXSYLVANIA, 

County  of  Cumberland,  ss  : 

Before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  and  State,  personally  came  J.  W. 
Bosler,  one  of  the  sureties  in  the  foregoing  bond  above  named,  who,  being  duly  sworn, 
deposes  and  says  that  he  is  worth  forty  thousand  dollars  over  and  above  all  debts, 
claims,  demands,  or  liabilities  of  any  character  against  him  whatever. 

J.  W.  BOSLER. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  before  me  this  17th  day  of  March,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  A.  L.  SPONSLER,  N.  P. 


777 

STATE  OF  PENNSYLVANIA, 

County  of  Cumberland,  ss : 

Before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  aud  State,  personally  came  Joseph 
Bosler,  one  of  the  sureties  in  the  foregoing  bond  above  named,  who,  being  duly  sworn, 
deposes  aud  says  that  he  is  worth  the  sum  of  $40,000  over  aud  above  all  debts,  claims, 
and  demands,  or  liabilities  of  any  character  against  him  whatever. 

JOSEPH  BOSLER. 

Sworn  aud  subscribed  before  me  this  17th  day  of  March,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  A.  L.  SPONSLER,  N.  P. 


CONTRACT    WITH   SETII  MA15RY. 

Articles  of  agreement  made  and  entered  into  this  seventh  day  of  May,  A.  D.  eighteen 
hundred  and  seventy-live,  by  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for 
and  in  behalf  of  the  United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  Seth  Mab  ry,  of  Austin,  Texas, 
of  the  second  part,  witnesseth  : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself,  his  heirs,  executors,  and  adminis 
trators,  hereby  covenants  and  agrees  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  to  furnish  and 
deliver,  at  the  places  herein  designated,  to  such  agent  or  agents  of  the  United  States  as 
may  be  appointed  to  receive  it,  beef-cattle,  on  the  hoof,  in  the  quantities  and  at  the  prices 
herein  stated. 


Quantity. 

Place  of  delivery. 

Times  of  delivery. 

Kind  of  cattle. 

£ 

2^ 
w,a 
,  fcc 

11 

PM 

Lbs.  gross. 
400,  000 

Santee  Sioux  agency  f 

For  Ponca  and  Santee 

Good  merchantable 

1 

1  500  000 

Yancton  agency 

agencies,  one  deliv 

Texascattle,  aver 

8,  000,  000 

Spotted  Tail  agency    

ery  before  July  1, 

aging  850  pounds 

1,800,000 
5  000.  000 

"Upper  Missouri  (Crow  Creek)  agency 
Cheyenne  River  agency                         I 

and  one  about  May 
1,  1876. 

gross  for  each  of 
the     six     months 

6,  500,  000 

Standing  Rock  agency  ) 

The  beef  for  the  other 

ending  December 

v  2  46  J- 

9  000  000 

Red  Cloud  agency       *                             j 

agencies  for    Janu 

31  and  July  31. 

300,  000 

Ponca  agency  

ary,  February,  and 

March,  one  delivery 
for     freezing     pur 
poses. 

The  party  of  t?he  first  part,  however,  reserves  the  right  to  require  a  greater  or  less 
quantity,  not  exceeding  twenty-five  per  cent,  in  either  case,  than  that  specified  in  said 
schedule,  at  the  price  or  prices  therein  stated,  of  which  increase  or  decrease  in  the  quan 
tity  required  notice  shall  be  given  to  the  party  of  the  second  part  on  or  before  the  31st 
day  of  August,  1875. 

The  party  of  the  second  part  agrees  to  keep  the  beef-cattle  in  the  vicinity  of  the 
places  of  delivery,  to  be  delivered  when  required  ;  aud  should  he  fail  to  collect  cattle 
at  such  points  fast  enough,  or  should  he  fail  to  deliver  them  as  required,  the  party  of 
the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or  cause  to  be  purchased,  beef-cattle  as 
he  may  elect,  at  the  expense  of  the  party  of  the  second  part. 

It  is  further  agreed  between  the  parties  hereto  that  if  any  of  the  cattle  offered  for 
acceptance  shall  fail  to  conform  to  the  requirements  of  this  contract,  the  same  shall  be 
rejected  by  the  agent  to  whom  the  same  is  offered,  who  shall  have  authority  to  require 
of  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  the  delivery,  within  five  days  after  such  rejection, 
of  proper  cattle  in  the  place  of  those  rejected;  aud  in  case  the  said  party  of  the  second 
part  shall  fail  to  deliver  cattle  of  the  kind  required  within  the  said  period  of  five  days, 
then  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or  cause  to  be  pur 
chased,  in  open  market,  or  otherwise,  such  cattle  as  may  be  required  to  supply  the  defi 
ciency.  And  it  is  agreed  and  understood  by  the  parties  hereto  that  the  said  party  of 
the  second  part  and  his  sureties  shall  be  held  accountable,  under  the  bond  which  may 
be  given  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract,  for  any  excess  in  the  cost  of  cattle 
so  purchased  over  and  above  what  the  same  articles  would  have  cost  at  the  price  or 
prices  designated  in  said  schedule. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay,  or  cause  to  be  paid,  to  the  said  party  of  the 
second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  for  all  the  cattle  received  under 
this  contract,  at  the  rate  or  price  designated  in  the  above  schedule ;  payment  to  be 
made  on  presentation,  at  the  Office  of  Indian  Affairs,  of  proper  receipts  of  the  respect 
ive  agents,  after  the  same  have  been  properly  approved. 

It  is  agreed,  however^  that,  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this  contract, 
a  bond,  in  the  sum  of  five  hundred  thousand  dollars,  shall  be  executed  by  the  said  party 
of  the  second  part,  with  two  or  more  good  and  sufficient  sureties ;  said  bond  to  be  con- 


778 

ditioued  fur  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract,  in  all  its  particulars,  by  the 
said  party  of  the  seconfl  part. 

It  is  hereby  expressly  understood  that  no  member  of  Congress  shall  be  admitted  to 
any  share  or  part  of  this  contract,  or  any  benefit  to  arise  therefrom,  which  provision  is 
hereby  inserted  in  compliance  with  the  third  section  of  an  act  concerning  public  con 
tracts,  approved  the  21st  of  April,  1808  ;  and  it  is  farther  understood  that  the  provisions 
contained  in  the  first  section  of  said  act  are  hereby  made  a  part  and  parcel  of  this 
agreement. 

la  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the 
day  and  year  lirst  above  written. 

EDWARD  P.  SMITH.        [L.  s.] 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affair^. 
SETH  MABRY.  [L.  s.] 

Signed  in  the  presence  of — 
D.  W.  C.  WHEELER. 

C.    D.    WOOLWORTH. 

Bond. 

Know  all  men  by  these  presents,  that  we,  Seth  Mabry,  as  principal,  and  James  W. 
Hosier,  of  Carlisle, Penna.,  and  A.  H.  Wilder,  of  St.  Paul,  Minnesota,  as  sureties,  are  held 
and  firmly  bound  unto  the  United  States  of  America  in  the  sum  of  five  hundred  thou 
sand  dollars,  lawful  money  of  the  said  United  States,  for  which  payment,  well  and 
truly  to  be  made,  we  hereby  bind  ourselves,  and  each  of  us,  our  heirs,  executors,  and 
administrators,  jointly  and  severally,  firmly  by  these  presents. 

The  condition  of  this  obligation  is  such  that  if  the  above-boundeii  Seth  Mabry,  their 
heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  or  any  of  them,  shall  observe,  perform,  and  fulfill, 
all  and  singular  the  covenants  and  agreements  mentioned  and  contained  in  a  certain 
contract  of  even  date  herewith,  between  the  United  States,  by  Edward  P.  Smith,  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  the  said  Seth  Mabry,  of  Austin,  Texas,  then  and  in  that 
case  this  obligation  shall  be  null  and  void  ;  otherwise  to  remain  in  full  force  and  virtue. 
In  testimony  whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  and  seals  this  7th  day  of 
May,  A.  1).  1875. 

SETH  MABRY.     [L.  s.] 
J.  W.  BOSLER.    [L.  s.] 
A.  H.  WILDER.  [L.  s.] 
STATE  OF  NEW  YORK, 

City  and  County  of  New  York,  ss  : 

J.  W.  Bosler,  being  duly  sworn,  says  that  he  is  worth  rive  hundred  thousand  dollars 
over  and  above  all  debts  and  liabilities. 

J.  W.  BOSLER. 

Sworn  to  and  subscribed  before  me  this  7th  day  of  May,  A.  D.  1875.  f 
[SEAL]       .  WILLIAM  F.  LETT, 

Notary  Public  for  New  York  County  and  State,  335  Broadway, 

New  York,  Room  \,  first  floor,  first  office. 
STATE  OF  NEW  YORK, 

City  and  County  of  New  York,  ss  : 

A.  If.  Wilder,  being  duly  sworn,  says  that  he  is  worth  two  hundred  and  fifty  thou 
sand  dollars  over  and  above  all  debts  and  liabilities. 

A.  H.  WILDER. 

Sworn  to  and  subscribed  before  me  this  7th  day  of  May,  A.  D.  1875. 
[SEAL.]  W.  F.  LETT, 

Notary  Public. 


PORK  AND  FLOUR, 

CONTRACT  WITH  J.  W.  L.  SLAVEXS. 

Articles  of  agreement  made  and  entered  into  this  eleventh  day  of  .July,  A.  D.  eighteen 
hundred  and  seventy-four,  by  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for 
and  in  behalf  of  the  United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  Kansas 
City,  and  State  of  Missouri,  of  the  second  part,  witnesseth  : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  for  himself,  his  heirs,  executors,  and  admin 
istrators,  hereby  covenants  and  agrees  with  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  to  furnish 
and  deliver  at  the  cities  of  Omaha  and  Kansas  City,  or  at  such  other  place  as  may  be 
agreed  upon  between  the  parties  hereto,  to  such  agent  or  agents  of  the  United  States 
as  may  be  appointed  to  receive  them,  the  articles  embraced,  and  at  the  prices  named, 
in  the  schedule  hereunto  annexed,  which  schedule  it  is  agreed  shall  form  a  part  of  this 
agreement. 
The  party  of  the  first  part,  however,  reserves  the  right  to  require  a  greater  or  less 


779 

quantity,  not  exceeding  twenty-five  per  cent,  in  either  case,  of  any  of  the  articles  than 
that  specified  in  the  schedule,  at  the  price  or  prices  therein  stated. 

It  is  agreed  between  the  parties  hereto  that  all  the  articles  embraced  in  this  contract 
must  be  delivered  at  such  point  in  said  cities  of  Omaha  and  Kansas  City  as  may  be 
designated  by  the  party  of  the  first  part,  packed  and  marked  ready  for  shipment,  accord 
ing  to  directions,  which  will  be  given  by  said  party  of  the  first  part.  Payment  to  be 
made  to  the  party  of  the  second  part  for  any  rebaiing  or  extra  coopering  required  by 
the  party  of  the  first  part,  and  for  cases  where  goods  are  not  purchased  in  what  is. 
known  to  the  trade  as  "original  packages." 

It  is  also  further  agreed  between  the  parties  hereto  that  all  the  articles  offered  for 
acceptance  under  this  contract  shall  be  subjected  to  a  thorough  inspection  and  careful 
comparison  with  the  samples  thereof  which  have  been  adopted,  and  if,  on  such  com 
parison  and  inspection,  any  of  the  articles  fail  to  conform  to  or  equal  said  samples, 
the  same  shall  be  rejected  by  the  parties  making  the  inspection,  who  shall  have  author 
ity  to  require  of  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  the  delivery,  within  five  days  after  such 
rejection,  of  proper  articles  in  the  place  of  those  rejected.  In  case  said  party  of  the 
second  part  shall  fail  to  deliver  proper  articles  within  the  said  period  of  five  days,  then 
the  said  party  of  the  first  part  shall  have  the  right  to  purchase,  or  cause  to  be  pur 
chased,  in  open  market,  or  otherwise,  such  articles  as  may  be  required  to  supply  the 
deficiency.  And  it  is  agreed  and  understood  by  the  party  of  the  second  part  that  he 
and  his  sureties  shall  be  held  accountable,  under  the  bond  which  may  be  giveu  for  the 
faithful  performance  o.f  this  contract,  for  any  excess  in  the  cost  of  the  articles  so  pur 
chased  over  and  above  what  the  same  articles  would  cost  at  the  price  or  prices  desig 
nated  in  said  schedule. 

The  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be  paid  the  said  party  of  the- 
second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  for  all  the  articles  received  under 
this  contract,  at  the  rate  or  price  affixed  to  each  article  designated  in  said  schedule  ; 
payment  to  be  made  on  invoices  of  the  goods  received  after  they  shall  have  been  prop 
erly  approved. 

It  is  agreed,  however,  that,  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this  contract,, 
a  bond,  in  the  sum  of  twenty-five  thousand  dollars,  shall  be  executed  by  the  said  party 
of  the  second  part,  with  two  or  more  good  and  sufficient  sureties  ;  said  bond  to  be  con 
ditioned  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract,  in  all  its  particulars,  by  the  said 
party  of  the  second  part. 

It  is  hereby  expressly  understood  that  no  member  of  Congress  shall  be  admitted  to- 
any  share  or  part  of  this  contract,  or  any  benefit  to  arise  therefrom,  which  provision  is- 
hereby  inserted  in  compliance  with  the  third  section  of  an  act  concerning  public  con- 
tracts^,  approved  the  21st  of  April,  1808 ;  and  it  is  further  understood  that  the  pro 
visions  contained  in  the  first  section  of  said  act  are  hereby  made  a  part  and  parcel  of 
this  agreement. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the 
day  and  year  first  above  written. 

EDWARD  P.  SMITH,  [L.  s.} 

Commissioner  of  Indain  Affairs. 

J.  W.  L.  SLAVENS.  [L.  ».} 

Signed  in  presence  of— 
H.  R.  CLUM, 
Tnos.  E.  McGRAW. 


Schedule  of  articles  referred  to  in  the  foregoing  contract  between  the  United  States,  ~by  Edward 
P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  the  city  of  Kansas 
City,  Missouri. 


Articles. 

Price. 

Total. 

710,000  pounds  XX  flour  as  follows,  to  be  delivered  at  Kansas  City,  Missouri, 
viz: 
280,000  pounds  for  the  Upper  Arkansas  agency,  Indian  Territory,  $2.30 

370,000  pounds  for  the  Kiowa  "agency,  Indian  Territory,  $2.30   per    100 

60,000  pounds  for  the  Wichita    agency,  Indian  Territory,  $2.30  per  100 
pounds           .                                                         ... 

For  the  Red  Cloud  agency,   to  be  delivered  at  Omaha,   IST^braska,   200,000 
pounds  pork,  at  the  rate  of  $21  per  barrel 

The  flour  to  be  fresh  ground.  XX  quality,  to  be  made  wholly  from  good, 
sound  wheat,  and  to  be  delivered  in  good,  strong  double  sacks,  each  sack  to 
be  branded  •'  Indian  Dept.  flour." 
The  pork  to  be  in  barrels,  with  one  iron  hoop  at  each  end. 

780 


Know  all  men  by  those  presents,  that  we,  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  of  Kansas  City,  Mo.,  as 
principal,  and  John  H.  Martin,  of  Denver,  Colo.,  and  J.  M.  Dangherty,  of  Kansas  City, 
Mo.,  as  sureties,  are  held  and  firmly  bound  nuto  the  United  States  of  America  in  the 
sum  of  twenty-five  thousand  dollars,  lawful  money  of  the  said  United  States,  for  which 
payment,  well  and  truly  to  be  made,  we  hereby  bind  ourselves  and  each  of  us,  our 
heirs,  executors,  and  administrators,  jointly  and  severally,  firmly  by  these  presents. 

The  condition  of  this  obligation  is  such,  that  if  the  above-bonndeu  J.  W.  L.  Slavens, 
his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  or  any  of  them,  shall  observe,  perform,  and  ful 
fill,  all  and  singular,  the  covenants  and  agreements  mentioned  and  contained  in  a  cer 
tain  contract,  of  even  date  herewith,  between  the  United  States,  by  Edward  P.  Smith, 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  the  said  J.  W.  L.  Slavens,  then,  and  in  that  case, 
this  obligation  shall  be  null  and  void ;  otherwise  to  remain  in  full  force  and  virtue. 

In  testimony  whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  and  seals  this  eleventh  day 
of  July,  A.  D.  1874. 

J.  W.  L.  SLAVENS.      [L.  s.] 
J.  H.  MARTIN.  [L.  s.] 

J.  M.  DOUGHERTY.     [L.  s.] 
CITY  OF  WASHINGTON, 

District  of  Columbia,  ss  : 

Personally  appeared  J.  M.  Dougherty,  and  acknowledged  the  above  to  be  his  signature, 
and  made  solemn  oath  that  he  is  worth  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  over  and  above 
his  just  debts,  liabilities,  and  exemptions. 

THOMAS  C.  CONNOLLY,  [SEAL.] 
Notary  Public. 

Personally  appeared  John  H.  Martin,  and  acknowledged  the  above  to  be  his  signa 
ture,  and  made  solemn  oath  that  he  is  worth  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  over  and 
abo\e  his  just  debts,  and  liabilities,  and  exemptions. 

THOMAS  C.  CONNOLLY,  [SEAL.] 


FLOUR. 

CORRESPONDENCE  CONCERNING  FLOUR. 

Agent  Incin  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

SlIOSHONE  AND  BANNACK  AGENCY, 

Wyoming  Territory,  May  5,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  state  that  the  beef,  coffee,  and  sugar  furnished  this  year  for 
the  Shoshone  Indians  will  about  meet  the  demand ;  that  there  will  be  a  surplus  of 
several  hundred  sacks  of  flour,  and  also  a  surplus  of  bacon.  This  is  owing  to  the  fact 
that  the  Indians  were  permitted  to  take  a  hunt  during  the  summer,  and  also  hunted 
and  subsisted  themselves  during  the  greater  part  of  the  winter. 

I  do  not  think  it  advisable  to  let  them  hunt  this  summer,  as  they  will  have  their 
crops  to  take  care  of.     If  they  should  hunt  and  subsist  themselves  three  months  during 
the  winter,  the  remaining  three  months  would  require — 
For  1,200  souls,  275,000  pounds  of  beef. 
For  1,200  souls,  275,000  pounds  of  flour. 

I  would  respectfully  suggest  contracting  for  200,000  pounds  of  each,  with  an  addi 
tional  amount  if  required. 

I  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

JAMES  IRVVIN, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


Agent  Irwin  to  Commissioner  Smith. 
[Telegram.] 

SHOSHONE  AND  BANNACK  AGENCY, 
Via  Camp  Stambaugh,  Wyoming,  July  7,  1874. 
Hon.  EDWARD  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington: 

I  respectfully  ask  instructions  in  regard  to  beef,  flour,  and  transportation.     See  two 
letters  dated  May  5,  and  a  proposition  to  furnish  beef  dated  April  30,  ultimo. 


781 

Please  instruct  by  telegram  without  delay.  Hostile  Indians  on  hand.  Four  horses 
stolen.  One  company  or  cavalry  and  two  hundred  Shoshoues  gone  to  the  camp.  If  a 
right  ensues,  will  notify  you. 

JAMES  IRWIN,  Agent. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Agent  Irwin. 

[Telegram.] 

OFFICE  INDIAN  AFFAIRS,  July  13,  1874. 
JAMES  IRWIN,  Indian  Agent, 

Shoshone  and  Bannack  Agency,  via  Camp  Stambaugh,  Wyoming  Territory : 
At  what  price  can  you  get  XX  flour  delivered  at  Bryan  ? 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 


Agent  Irwin  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

[Telegram.] 

SHOSHONE  AND  BANNACK  AGENCY, 
Via  Camp  Stamoaugh,  Wyoming,  July  2b,  1874. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. : 

Flour,  best  XX,  $3.75 ;  X,  good,  $3.40,  delivered  on  the  cars  at  Ogden.    So  say  Walker 
Brothers.     Send  instructions  on  July  4  by  telegram  soon. 

JAS.  IRWIN, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Agent  Irwin. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  1, 1874. 

SIR  :  In  reply  to  your  letter  of  May  5  last,  and  telegram  of  28th  ultimo,  relative  to 
flour  for  the  Shoshoue  and  Bannack  agency,  I  have  to  advise  you  that  arrangements 
have  been  made  with  J.  H.  Martin,  of  Denver,  Colo.,  the  present  contractor  for  the 
Red  Cloud  agency,  to  furnish  and  ship  to  you  at  Bryan  Station,  Union  Pacific 
Railroad,  200,000  pounds  of  XX  flour,  at  the  same  quality  and  price  at  which  his  con 
tract  was  awarded,  viz,  $2.50  per  100  pounds,  delivered  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
JAS.  IRWIN,  Esq., 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Shoshone  and  Bannack  Agency,  Wyoming. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  J.  H.  Martin. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  1,  1874. 

SIR:  Referring  to  your  contract  with  this  Bureau   for   the   delivery  of  flour   at 
Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  for  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency,  I  have  to  request  that  you  furnish 
and  ship  to  Bryan  Station,  Union  Pacific  Railroad,  consigned  to  James  Irwin,  United 
States  Indian  agent,  Shoshone  agency,  Wyoming  Territory,  200,000  pounds  of  flour,  of 
the  same  quality  and  at  the  same  price  as  that  upon  which  your  contract  was  awarded, 
the  same  to  be  inspected  at  Cheyenne  by  the  inspector  at  that  point  before  shipment. 
Your  account  for  the  flour  so  shipped,  accompanied  by  the  inspector's  certificate  and 
proper  bill  of  lading,  will,  on  presentation  at  this  Office,  receive  prompt  attention. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissionei'. 

J.  H.  MARTIN,  esq.,  Denver,  Colo. 


782 

Agent  Irwin  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

[Telegram.] 

BRYAN,  WYO.,  September  $,  1874. 
Hon.  ED.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. : 

I  have  received  no  flour  yet ;  none  at  the  agency.  Teams  been  waiting  here  three 
weeks.  Persons  at  Cheyenne  forward  to  Sioux  agencies  as  fast  as  it  arrived.  They 
can  freight  all  winter;  we  cannot.  I  respectfully  request  you  to  notify  J.  H.  Martin  to 
furnish  Shoshone  agency  two  thousand  sacks  immediately,  and  also  notify  Palmer,  at 
Cheyenne,  to  let  it  be  shipped  to  Bryan.  Matter  explained  by  letter.  No  annuity- 
.goods  yet. 

JAS.  IRWIN, 
Agent  Shoshones,  Wyoming  Territory. 

Agent  Incin  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

SHOSHOXE  AND  BAXXACK  AGENCY, 
Wyoming  Territory,  September  14,  1874. 

SIR.  1  have  the  honor  to  report  that,  having  learned  on  the  29th  August  that  no  flour 
liad  arrived  at  Bryan  and  none  at  the  agency,  and  four  teams  having  waited  over  a 
week  at  Bryan,  I  started  to  the  railroad,  and  not  being  able  to  learn  anything  definite, 
went  on  to  Cheyenne.  I  there  found  a  Mr.  Palmer  and  Mr.  Appleton,  who  were  hand 
ling  flour  in  the  interest  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  discovered  that  all  the  flour  re 
ceived  up  to  that  time,  except  one  car-load  on  hand,  and  seemed  to  disregard  the  ex 
tremity  in  which  I  was  placed. 

Seeing  that  nothing  could  be  done  at  that  point  I  went  on  to  Denver,  and  saw  J.  H. 
Martin,  who  informed  me  that  he  was  consigning  the  flour  to  Dr.  Saville,  by  instruc 
tions,  but  did  not  suppose  it  made  any  difference,  and  I  do  not  think  that  it  should. 

Mr.  Martin  went  with  me  to  the  Red  Cloud  railroad  agent,  and  had  the  consignment 
of  the  car  at  Cheyenne  changed.  The  car-load  at  Denver  was  also  consigned  to  me.  I 
entered  this  car,  No.  4180,  K.  C.,  and  examined  the  flour,  and  do  aver  that  it  is  equal,  if 
not  superior,  to  the  sample  contracted  for  with  J.  H.  Martin. 

On  my  return  to  Cheyenne  I  found  dissatisfaction  in  regard  to  the  car  there,  finding 
Palmer  and  Appleton  disposed  to  take  all  they  could  get,  and  that  they  had  a  man. 
French,  inspecting  flour  who  would  hot  inspect  flour  for  me  without  special  authority 
from  the  Government.  For  his  history  I  refer  to  Governor  Campbell  or  any  other  re 
liable  citizen  of  Cheyenne.  I  employed  D.  F.  Whipple  to  inspect  and  ship  flour  to 
Bryan  for  this  agency. 

In  the  matter  of  inspecting  flour,  I  furnished  him  with  the  Government  sample  and 
put  him  under  oath,  and  left  with  him  some  signed-up  requisitions  on  Government  B.  L. 

He  informs  me  that  the  car  No.  4180  came  the  next  day,  and  that  a  Colonel  Long- 
notified  him  that  he  was  inspector  for  Government ;  that  Colonel  Long  required  two  or 
three  men  to  assist  him,  at  an  expense  of  six  or  eight  dollars,  and  condemned  the  flour. 

His  action  is,  in  my  opinion,  unjust  to  the  contractor  and  causing  unnecessary  delay 
in  the  delivery  of  my  flour.  A  sample  of  K.  C.  car  4189  can  be  had  of  D.  F.  Whipple, 
certified  to  by  freight  agent  of  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  at  Cheyenne,  I.  R.  Rinnock. 

I  will  advise  J.  H.  Martin  to  store  the  condemned  flour  at  Cheyenne  and  await 
further  action,  for  I  do  not  believe  that  the  transaction  has  been  characterized  by  a 
•spirit  of  justice  and  equity.  If  this  Colonel  Long  has  been  authorized  to  inspect  In 
dian  flour,  it  is  strange  that  Mr.  Palmer  should  employ  French,  and  say  nothing  to  me 
about  a  Government  inspector. 

I  would  respectfully  request  that  D.  F.  Whipple  be  permitted  to  receive,  inspect, 
and  forward  the  Shoshone  agency,  flour,  inasmuch  as  he  will  promptly  and  carefully 
attend  to  it,  and  relieve  me  from  the  anxiety  I  how  feel  in  regard  to  getting  flour  to 
the  agency  for  the  coming  winter.  If  approved,  please  notify  Whipple  by  telegram. 

Coffee  for  this  agency,  10,120  pounds,  is  lying  in  the  warehouse  at  Bryan,  with  Union 
Pacific  and  back  freights  unsettled.  A  wagon  to  be  used  on  the  mountain  in  procuring 
lumber,  and  fuel,  &c.,  was  shipped  from  Saint  Louis,  Mo.,  to  Kearney  Station,  Union 
Pacific,  and  from  thence  to  Bryan.  Union  Pacific  charges,  $65.95,  back  charges  $10.50. 
The  superintendant  at  Omaha  refuses  to  deliver  until  all  charges  are  paid.  If  I  do  not 
get  the  wagon  soon  I  will  be  without  lumber  and  fuel  this  coming  winter,  as  the  old 
wagon  is  useless.  I  fear  I  will  be  compelled  to  pay  the  charges. 

No  annuity-goods  have  yet  arrived  at  Bryan. 
I  am,  very  respectful] v, 

JAMES  IRWIN, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


783 

Commissioner  Smith  to  Secretary  Delano. 

{DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  August  4, 1874. 

SIR  :  By  the  terms  of  contracts  for  Indian  supplies  for  the  coming  year,  flour  is  to  be 
delivered  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  and  Crow  agency  and  Blackfeet  agency  and  Fort  Peck, 
Mont. 

From  the  infrequent  tours  of  the  regular  inspectors  through  this  country  and  the 
absence  of  other  competent  persons,  it  is  difficult  to  provide  for  the  inspection  required 
at  these  points.  I  respectfully  suggest  the  expediency  of  requesting  the  honorable 
Secretary  of  War  to  authorize  the  commissary  or  some  other  officer  at  Cheyenne,  Fort 
Ellis,  and  Stevenson,  respectively,  to  inspect  Indian  supplies  at  such  times  as  their 
services  may  be  required.  As  it  is  not  contemplated  that  these  deliveries  will  be  fre 
quent,  the  service  required  will  be  correspondingly  light  and  all  expenses  of  travel  can 
be]borne  by  this  Office. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
The  Honorable  SECKETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


Acting  Commissioner  Clum  to  Inspector  Long. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  2, 1874. 

SIR  :  At  the  request  of  this  Office  you  have  been  designated  by  the  War  Department 
to  inspect  the  flour  delivered  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  by  Mr.  John  H.  Martin,  under  his 
contract  with  this  Department. 

The  sample  of  flour  upon  which  you  are  to  base  your  inspection  is  in  the  hands  of 
S.  H.  Palmer,  store-keeper  of  Indian  supplies  at  Cheyenne,  who  has  this  day  been  in 
structed  to  turn  the  same  over  to  you  upon  your  application. 

When  flour  is  offered  for  delivery  by  Mr.  Martin,  under  said  contract,  you  will  care 
fully  compare  the  same  with  the  sample  and  see  that  they  are  equal  in  every  respect 
before  giving  fiim  the  requisite  certificate  of  inspection.  Each  sack  of  flour  inspected 
by  you  must  be  plainly  marked  "  Indian  Department,"  and  bear  your  mark  of  inspec 
tion.  You  will  please  provide  yourself  with  the  necessary  implements  for  such  mark 
ing. 

Blank  forms  of  certificates  to  be  used  by  you,  have  this  day  been  mailed  to  your 
address.  A  duplicate  of  each  certificate  given  must  be  forwarded  to  this  Office. 

All  your  expenses  connected  with  these  duties  will  be  paid  by  this  Office  on  receipt 
of  properly  itemized  accounts. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM, 

Acting  Commissioner. 

Capf.  A.  K.  LONG, 

Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

4 

Commissioner  Smith  to  Superintendent  Wkite. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  September  14,  1874. 

SiR  :  Twenty-five  hundred  sacks  of  flour  for  the  Eed  Cloud  agency  are  to  be  shipped 
from  Omaha  within  a  few  days  by  O.  P.  Hurford.  The  transportation  of  this  flour  is 
already  provided  for. 

The  service  required  of  you  is  to  attend  to  the  inspection  ;  to  be  satisfied  that  the 
flour  is  in  accordance  with  the  sample  which  Mr.  Hurford  has  in  his  possession  and  will 
furnish  you  on  application  ;  and  that  it  is  branded  "  Indian  Department"  by  the  con 
tractor,  and  has  the  required  mark  of  inspection  by  the  party  whom  you  employ  for 
this  service. 

Hurford  is  informed  of  the  manner  of  inspection  and  will  call  upon  you  when  he  is 
ready  for  the  service. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
BARCLAY  WHITE, 

Superintendent  Indian  Affairs,  Omaha,  Rebr. 


784 

Inspector  Long  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.;  October  2,  1874. 
Hoii.  E.  P.  SMITH  : 

J.  H.  Martin  is  shipping  flour  through  here  without  having  it  inspected.  Is  he  so 
authorized  ?  My  having  rejected  flour  of  an  inferior  grade  has  caused  great  dissatisfac 
tion. 

ANDREW  K.  LONG, 
Captain  and  Commissary  Subsistence  U.  S.  A.,  Inspector  Indian  Supplies, 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Inspector  Long. 
[Telegram.] 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  October  3,  1874. 
Capt.  ANDREW  K.  LONG,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 

Twenty-five  hundred  sacks  under  Martin's  contract  have  been  inspected  at  Omaha, 
Your  thorough  inspection  is  all  right. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Superintendent  White. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  October  10,1874. 

SIR  :  J.  IT.  Martin,  contractor  for  flour  for  the  Shoshones,  has  permission  to  have  1,100 
sacks  of  flour  inspected  at  Omaha  by  yon.  The  statement  has  been  made  that  this  in 
spection  is  desired  at  Omaha  rather  than  at  Cheyenne  on  account  of  the^trictness  with 
which  the  contractor  has  been  held  to  his  sample  by  the  Cheyenne  inspector. 

This  statement  is  furnished  you  for  your  information  and  with  the  request  that  you 
will  use  all  diligence  to  require  a  strict  conformity  to  the  sample,  and  to  assure  yourself 
that  the  person  employed  in  the  inspection  is  thoroughly  competent  for  the  service. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
BARCLAY  WHITE, 

Superintendent  of  Indian  Affairs,  Omaha,  Xcbr. 


Superintendent  White  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

NORTHERN  SUPERINTENDENCY, 
OFFICE  OF  SUPERINTENDENT  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Omaha,  Xebr.,  7th  month,  19,  1875. 

RESPECTED  FRIEND:  Thy  telegram  of  17th  instant  was  received  after  5  p.  m.  on  the 
18th  instant.  I  have  carefully  examined  the  files  of  letters  and  telegrams  in  my  office, 
and  am  unable  to  find  any  letter  or  telegram  from  the  Office  of  Indian  Affairs  relative 
to  the  double  sample  of  flour  offered  me,  as  inspector  of  supplies,  by  the  contractors 
for  furnishing  flour  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  have  no  recollection  of  having  re 
ceived  such  a  letter,  and  I  think  I  can  safely  say  no  such  letter  has  been  received  in 
this  office  from  the  Indian  Department. 

Under  instructions  contained  in  thy  letter  of  August  1,  1874,  I  appointed  William  I. 
Yates,  an  old  miller  and  store-keeper,  as  subinspector  of  Indian  supplies  for  this  office. 
He  has  been  in  the  employ  of  the  office  as  freight-clerk  for  five  years,  and  bears  a  good 
reputation  for  honesty  and  integrity.  Soon  after  thy  letter  of  14th  September,  1874, 
was  received,  O.  P.  Hurford,  therein  mentioned,  deposited  in  this  office  a  sample  of 
flour,  which  he  stated  was  similar  in  quality  to  the  sample  accompanying  his  bid  for 
warded  to  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  and  members  of  the  Board  of  Indian 
Commissioners,  in  New  York,  and  commenced  delivering,  at  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad 
depot,  sacks  of  flour  to  fill  the  contract.  My  instructions  to  the  subinspector  were  to 
inspect  every  sack,  reject  all  below  the  quality  of  the  sample,  and  brand  every  sack 


785 

accepted  "Indian  Department,  Barclay  White,  U.  S.  Inspector."  A  few  hundred  sacks 
had  been  inspected,  when  O.  P.  Hurford  presented  another  sample  of  flour,  inferior  in 
quality  to  the  first  sample,  which  he  then  stated  was  of  the  same  quality  as  the  sample 
accompanying  his  bid,  that  the  boys  in  his  mill  had  made  a  mistake,  &c.  About  two 
hundred  sacks  were  inspected  by  sample  No.  2.  All  the  flour  in  them  was  superior  to 
said  sample,  but  inferior  to  No.  1. 

At  this  period  of  time,  B.  R.  Roberts,  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commission 
ers,  visited  my  office,  ahd  I  submitted  the  two  samples  to  his  inspection.  He  pro 
nounced  No.  1  equal  in  quality  and  No.  2  inferior  in  quality  to  the  sample  deposited  by 
Hurford  with  his  bid.  I  immediately  notified  Hurford  and  the  subinspector  that  all 
the  flour  must  in  future  be  fully  equal  in  quality  to  No.  1.  Soon  after  Commissioner 
Roberts  returned  to  Washington,  I  received  a  letter  from  him.  dated  eleventh  inontb, 
4,  1874,  upon  various  Indian  subjects,  and  in  which  he  writes:  "In  relation  to  inspec 
tion  of  flour  at  Omaha,  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  appears  to  fear  some  inten 
tion  to  cheat  in  the  matter,  and  asked  if  any  had  been  passed  lower  in  grade  than  the 
first  sample  produced.  My  reply  was  that  I  believed  not.  I  have  not  yet  seen  the  con 
tract,  but  the  Commissioner  says  it  is  for  the  best  flour,  and  nothing  below  that  should 
be  received.  If  the  flour  t  J  go  to  Shoshones  has  not  already  been  sent  forward,  I  would 
not  mark  any  that  was  below  the  sample  in  thy  office,  i.  e.,  the  best  sample." 

Two  thousand  seven  hundred  and  forty-nine  (2,749)  sacks  of  flour,  weighing  two 
hundred  and  fifty  thousand  nine  hundred  and  forty-four  (250,944)  pounds,  for  Red 
Cloud  agency,  and  eleven  hundred  and  twenty-nine  (1,129)  sacks  of  flour,  weighing 
one  hundred  and  ten  thousand  and  ninety-two  (110,092)  pounds,  for  Shoshones  and 
Banuacks,  were  inspected  by  this  office  during  the  year  A.  D.  1874,  all,  with  the  excep 
tion  of  the  two  hundred  sacks  (200)  above  mentioned,  fully  equal  to  sample  No.  1,  now 
on  deposit  in  this  office,  and  all  marked  with  brand  above  mentioned. 
Verv  respectfully,  thy  friend, 

BARCLAY  WHITE, 

Superintendent  Indian  Affairs. 

HOT.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


TRANSPORTATION. 

CONTRACT   WITH   P.   J.   MCCANN. 

Articles  of  agreement  made  and  entered  into  this  8th  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1874,  by  and 

between  Edward  P.  Smith,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  for  and  on  behalf  of  the 

United  States,  of  the  first  part,  and  D.  J.  McCann,  of  Nebraska  City,  Nebr.,  of  the 

second  part,  wituesseth : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  agrees  to  receive  in  the  city  of  New  York  and 
in  the  city  of  Philadelphia,  between  the  date  of  this  agreement  and  the  30th  day  of  June, 
1875,  all  such  goods  and  supplies  as  may  be  purchased  for  the  Indian  Department  du 
ring  the  fiscal  year  ending  on  said  30th  day  of  June,  1875,  the  same  to  be  shipped  in 
sound  and  water- proof  cars  to  the  following  named  points,  and  at  the  rates  hereto  an 
nexed,  viz : 

From  New  York  and  Philadelphia  to  Omaha,  Nebr.,  at  the  rate  of  60  cents  per  one 
hundred  pounds ;  from  New  York  and  Philadelphia  to  Kansas  City,  Mo.,  at  the  rate 
of  50  cents  per  one  hundred  pounds  ;  and  from  New  York  and  Philadelphia  to  Cheyenne, 
Wyo.,  at  the  rate  of  $1.05  per  one  hundred  pounds  ;  and  from  Omaha  to  Cheyenne,  at 
the  rate  of  45  cents  per  one  hundred  pounds. 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  transport  in  good  covered  wagons 
from  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  to  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency,  Dak.,  all  the  goods  and  supplies 
of  the  Indian  Department  that  may  be  purchased  for  the  said  agency  during  the  fiscal 
year  ending  June  30,  1875,  and  also,  if  desired  by  the  party  of  the  first  part,  due  notice 
to  that  effect  being  first  given  to  the  party  of  the  second  part,  any  or  all  of  the  supplies 
and  goods  that  may  be  purchased  for  the  Whetstone  agency,  Dak.,  at  the  rate  of  $1.10 
per  one  hundred  pounds  per  one  hundred  miles,  actual  measurement  ot  the  route  neces 
sary  to  be  traveled. 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  commence  the  transportation  of 
said  goods  as  soon  as  notified  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  that  the  said 
goods  are  ready  for  shipment  and  to  complete  said  transportation  as  quickly  as  possible 
and  without  unnecessary  delay,  said  goods  and  supplies  to  be  turned  over  as  follows, 
viz:  At  Omaha,  Nebr.,  to  the  superintendent  of  Indian  affairs  for  the  northern  sup;>rin- 
tendency  ;  at  Kansas  City,  Mo.,  to  W.  C.  Graham,  freight-contractor;  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo., 
to  the  store  keeper  of  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency;  and  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  to 
the  Indian  agent  in  charge  of  the  same. 

50  I  F 


786 

In  consideration  of  the  faithful  performance  of  this  agreement  on  the  part  of  the 
party  of  the  second  part,  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be 
paid  to  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  administrators,  for  all 
services  rendered  under  this  contract,  the  rates  hereinbefore  specified  for  the  transpor 
tation  from  and  to  the  several  points  herein  named. 

And  it  is  further  agreed,  that  the  party  of  the  second  part  will  transport  any  Indian 
goods  and  supplies  that  the  party  of  the  first  part  shall  desire  to  have  transported  from 
New  York  and  Philadelphia  to  Bryan,  Wyo.,  and  Bridger,  Utah,  during  the  present 
fiscal  year ;  and  the  party  of  the  first  part  hereby  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be  paid  to 
the  party  of  the  second  part,  for  such  service,  the  following-named  prices,  viz :  From 
N^w  York  and  Philadelphia  to  Bryan,  Wyo.,  the  sum  of  $3.18  per  one  hundred  pounds, 
and  from  same  points  to  Bridger,  Utah,  the  sum  of  $3.34  per  one  hundred  pounds,  due 
notice  to  be  given  to  the  party  of  the  second  part  by  the  party  of  the  first  part,  that 
such  transportation  will  be  required. 

It  is  further  agreed  that  in  case  any  one  or  more  of  the  wagon-trains  of  the  said 
party  of  the  second  part  shall  be  delayed  by  authority  of  any  Government  officer  or 
agent,  at  any  place  between  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  and  the  Red  Cloud  or  Whetstone  agency, 
Dak.,  for  any  time  exceeding  two  days,  the  party  of  the  first  part  shall  pay  or  cause  to 
be  paid  to  the  party  of  the  second  part,  upon  a  statement  in  writing  from  the  officer  or 
agent  causing  the  delay,  setting  forth  the  reasons  or  causes  for  issuing  such  orders, 
the  sum  of  $2  per  diem  for  each  and  every  yoke  of  cattle  or  span  of  mules  in  the  train 
for  each  and  every  day  they  may  be  delayed.  It  is  further  agreed,  that  in  case  the 
officer  or  agent  aforesaid  of  the  Government  shall  refuse  to  furnish  the  statement  in 
writing  above  referred  to,  then  the  delay  shall  be  paid  for.  as  above,  on  the  affidavits  or 
other  satisfactory  evidence  of  two  or  more  credible  and  competent  witnesses. 

It  is  further  agreed,  however,  that  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this 
contract,  a  bond  in  the  penal  sum  of  $40,000,  lawful  money  of  the  United  States,  shall 
be  executed  by  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  with  two  or  more  good  and  sufficient 
sureties,  said  bond  to  be  conditioned  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract  in 
all  its  particulars  by  the  said  party  of  the  second  part. 

It  is  hereby  expressly  understood  that  no  member  of  Congress  shall  be  admitted  to 
any  share  or  part  of  this  contract  or  any  benefit  to  arise  therefrom,  which  provision  is 
hereby  inserted  in  compliance  with  the  third  section  of  an  act  concerning  public  con 
tracts,  approved  the  21st  of  April,  1808  ;  and  it  is  further  understood  that  the  provisions 
contained  in  the  first  section  of  said  act  are  hereby  made  a  part  and  parcel  of  this 
agreement. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  hereto  have  hereunto  set  their  hands  and  seals  the 
day  and  year  first  above  written. 

EDWARD  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 
D.  J.  McCANN.  [SEAL.] 

Witness  : 

M.  S.  COOK. 


EFFORTS   TO   ASCERTAIN   THE   DISTANCE. 

Commissioner  Smith  to  L.  S.  Hayden. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  July  28,  1874. 

SIR:  You  are  directed  to  purchase  an  odometer  at  the  lowest  attainable  price  and 
ship  the  same  by  express,  as  soon  as  possible,  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  esq.,  store-keeper  of  In 
dian  supplies  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  and  advise  him  of  the  shipment. 
Have  the  bill  for  same  sent  to  this  office  for  payment. 
Very  respectfully,  vour  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner* 
L.  S.  HAYDEN,  Esq., 

42  Leonard  Stnet,  New  York  City. 

Commissioner  Smith  to  S.  H.  Palmer. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  July  28,  1874. 

Siu  :  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  23d  instant,  stating  that  there  is  no  ndom- 
ete:  to  be  procured  at  Cheyenne,  but  that  one  can  probably  be  obtained  at  Omaha, 


787 

and  suggesting  that  Agent  Saville  be  directed  to  take  the  measurement  of  the  distance 
from  Cheyenne  to  the  present  Red  Cloud  agency  cither  by  attaching  an.  odometer  to 
his  ambulance,  or  with  a  chain. 

In  reply  I  have  to  state  that  steps  have  been  taken  to  have  an  odometer  purchased 
and  shipped  to  you  at  Cheyenne.  It  is  desired  that  the  actual  distance^  traveled  by 
the  trains  transporting  freight  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  shall  be  obtained."  This,  it  is 
believed,  can  better  be  done  by  attaching  the  odometer  to  one  of  the  wagons  belong 
ing  to  a  train  than  by  attaching  it  to  an  ambulance  which  may  not  travel  the  exact 
route  taken  by  the  trains. 

You  will,  therefore,  on  receipt  of  the  odometer,  please  comply  with  office  instructions 
of  the  16th. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
S.  H.  PALMER,  Esq., 

Store-keeper  of  Indian  Supplies,  Cheyenne,  Wyo. 


S.  H.  Palmer  io  Commissioner  Smith. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  August  28,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  report  to  you  that  I  attached  the  odometer  as  directed  to 
the  first  train  that  loaded  and  started  for  Red  Cloud,  from  this  place,  which  was  on 
the  17i  h  day  of  this  month. 

Very 'respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

S.  H.  PALMER, 
Government  Store-keeper. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


S.  H.  Palmer  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  September  11,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  inform  you  that  John  Comptori,  the  wagon-master  in  whose 
care  Dr.  J.  J.  Saville,  of  Red  Cloud,  Dak.,  placed  the  odometer,  in  order  to  get  the  dis 
tance  from  that  place  to  Cheyenne,  has  this  day  returned  the  same  to  me,  stating  that 
it  got  out  of  order,  and  he  could  not  tell  anything  about  the  distance.  The  odometer 
will  not  indicate  but  thirty-one  miles. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

S.  H.  PALMER, 
Government  Store-keeper. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  November  9, 1874. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor,  respectfully,  to  transmit  certificate  of  distance  from  Cheyenne 
to  Red  Cloud  agency,  in  compliance  with  instructions  from  Department  of  Indian 
Affairs  dated  July  16,  1874.  There  has  been  some  delay  in  the  measurement,  for  the 
reason  that  the  first  time  the  new  odometer  came  through  I  was  not  satisfied  with  the 
indications,  thinking  that  it  made  the  distance  too  great,  and  therefore  ordered  it 
placed  on  another  wheel  and  sent  it  through  again. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


Certificate. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  November  9,  1874. 

I  certify  on  honor  that,  in  compliance  with  instructions  from  the  Department  of 
Indian  Affairs,  an  odometer,  sealed  and  placed  on  a  wagon-wheel  at  Cheyenne,  the 


788 

wagon  traveling  the  usual  route  traveled  by  freight-trains  from  Cheyenne  to  Red 
Cloud  agency,  was  received  and  opened  by  me  November  7,  1874,  and  the  odometer 
indicated  ninety-two  thousand  one  hundred  and  twenty  revolutions  of  the  wheel 
that  the  wheel  measured  thirteen  feet  in  circumference,  indicating  a  distance  of  two 
hundred  and  twenty-six  and  eighty-one  huudredths  miles. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Secretary  Delano. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington ,  D.  C.,  November  20, 1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  state,  for  your  information,  that  this  Office,  in  order  to 
determine  the  actual  distance  traveled  by  freight-trains  engaged  in  carrying  Indian 
goods  and  supplies  from  Cheyenne,  Wyoming,  to  the  Ked  Cloud  agency,  Dakota,  pur 
chased  and  placed  in  the  hands  of  Agent  Saville  an  odometer,  with  instructions,  dated 
July  16,  1874,  to  both  the  agent  and  S.  H.  Palmer,  Government  store-keeper  for  Red 
Cloud  agency,  regarding  the  proper  method  to  be  observed  in  using  the  same. 

This  Office  is  now  in  receipt  of  a  communication  from  Agent  Saville,  (copy  herewith,) 
dated  the  9th  instant,  inclosing  his  certificate,  to  the  effect  that  the  distance,  as  shown 
by  the  odometer  opened  by  him  on  the  7th  instant,  is  226.81  miles. 

In  view  of  the  fact  that  the  distance,  as  given  in  said  certificate,  is  greater  than  any 
estimate  heretofore  made,  I  have  to  recommend,  in  order  that  the  question  may  be  set 
tled  beyond  a  doubt,  that  the  War  Department  be  requested  to  take  immediate  steps 
to  have  the  distance  between  the  two  points  named  measured  by  an  odometer,  care 
being  taken  to  have  the  route  measured  the  same  as  that  actually  traveled  by  the 
freight-teams  engaged  in  hauling  goods  under  the  McCann  contract. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
Tae  honorable  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


Secretary  Belknap  to  Secretary  Delano. 

WAR  DEPARTMENT, 
Washington  City,  January  6,  1875. 

SIR  :  Referring  to  your  letter  of  the  21st  November  last,  requesting  that  the  distance 
between  Cheyenne  and  the  Red  Cloud  agency  be  measured,  under  direction  of  this 
Department,  by  an  odometer,  over  the  route  actually  traveled  by  teams  employed  in 
transporting  goods  under  contract  with  Mr.  D.  J.  McCann,  I  have  the  honor  to  inform 
you  that  a  dispatch  has  just  been  received  from  General  E.  O.  C.  Ord,  dated  Omaha, 
Nebraska,  December  29,  1874,  as  follows  : 

"  Lieutenant  Winters,  detailed  under  the  Secretary's  orders  to  measure  Indian  con 
tractor's  route  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  reports  'That  agent  at  Cheyenne  of 
McCann  has  as  yet  failed  to  procure  an  employe"  who  is  familiar  with  the  route  to 
accompany  him. — WINTERS.'  " 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

WM.  W.  BELKNAP, 

Secretary  of  fl'ar. 
The  hono.-able  the  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


Acting  Commissioner  Clum  to  D.  J.  McCann. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  January  11,  1875. 

SIR:  For  your  information  I  inclose  herewith  copy  of  letter  from  the  War  Depart 
ment,  dated  the  6th  instant,  addressed  to  the  Hon.  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  relative 
to  the  distance  between  Cheyenne,  Wyoming,  and  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  Dakota,  and 
have  to  advise  you  that  a  guide  familiar  with  the  route  to  be  measured  will  have  to  be 


789 

furnished  by  yourself,  so  soon  as  practicable,  in  order  that  the  detail  referred  to  in  the 
letter  of  the  War  Department  may  not  be  delayed. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM, 
Acting  Commissioner. 
D.  J.  Me  C  ANN,  City. 


INTERRUPTION   OF   SURVEY — SEVERITY  OF  THE  WEATHER. 

Secretary  Bclknap  to  Secretary  Delano. 

WAR  DEPARTMENT, 
Washington  City,  January  19, 1875. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  to  transmit,  for  your  information,  copy  of  telegram  from  the 
headquarters  of  the  Army,  stating  that  Lieutenant  Winter,  the  officer  detailed  to 
measure  the  Indian  contractor's  route  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  had  been 
driven  in,  &c.,  and  requesting  that  movements  of  troops  during  the  winter  be  made 
conditional  on  the  state  of  the  weather. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

WM.  W.  BELKNAP, 

Secretary  of  War. 
The  honorable  the  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


[Telegram  dated  Saint  Louis,  January  12,  1875.    Received  January  12,  1875.] 

To  ADJUTANT-GENERAL,  U.  S.  A.,  Washington,  D.  C.: 
The  following  dispatch  just  received  from  General  Ord  : 

"Colonel  Bradley  telegraphed  from  Fort  Laramie,  January  8,  all  qniet  at  agencies; 
twenty-seven  degrees  below  zero.  Lieutenant  Winters  telegraphs  from  Fort  Laramie, 
January -10,  that  he  has  been  driven  in  by  the  severity  of  the  weather,  after  getting 
as  far  as  old  Red  Cloud  agency ;  that  snow  is  drifted  very  badly,  and  thermometer 
ranges  from  twenty  to  forty  below  zero  in  the  day-time. 

"I  think  it  probable  that  Captain  Henry's  company,  now  in  pursuit  of  miners  in  the 
Black  Hills,  will  suffer  severely  from  the  weather,  and  will  lose  a  number  of  horses. 

"  I  request  that  any  directions  given  during  the  winter  to  move  troops  into  the 
Black  Hills  may  be  made  conditional  on  the  state  of  the  weather,  such  movements  up 
to  April  next  being  extremely  hazardous. 

"E.  O.  C.  ORD, 

"  Brigadier-General" 

WM.  D.  WHIPPLE,  A.  A.  G. 

WAR  DEPARTMENT, 
ADJUTANT-GENERAL'S  OFFICE, 

Washington,  January  13,  1875. 
Official  copy. 

E.  D.  TOWNSEND, 

Adjutant- General. 
To  the  honorable  the  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


Secretary  Belknap  to  Secretary  Delano. 

WAR  DEPARTMENT, 
Washington  City,  February  6,  1875. 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  to  inclose,  for  your  information,  copy  of  report  of  Second  Lieu 
tenant  J.  H.  Winters,  Twenty-third  Infantry,  dated  the  16th  ultimo,  of  result  of  his 
measurement  of  the  road  from  Cheyenne,  W.  T.,  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

WM.  W.  BELKNAP, 

Secretary  of  War. 
The  honorable  the  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


790 

Lieutenant  Winters'  report. 

FORT  LARAMIE,  WYOMING  TERRITORY, 

January  16,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  make  the  following  report : 

Iii  compliance  with  paragraph  2,  Special  Order  No.  185,  current  series,  dated  Head 
quarters  Department  of  the  Platte,  Omaha,  Neb.,  December  17,  1874,  I  started  from 
Fort  D.  A.  Russell,  W.  T.,  December  31,  with  a  party  consisting  of  the  post-guide,  one 
sergeant  and  nine  privates  of  Company  D,  Twenty-third  Infantry,  with  twelve  days' 
rations.  The  Quartermaster's  Department  furnished  one  spring- wragon  and  two  army- 
wagons,  with  ten  days'  forage.  One  odometer  was  attached  to  the  spring-wagon  and 
one  to  an  army-wagon.  I  left  Cheyenne  December  31,  1874,  and  proceeded  a  distance 
of  sixty-two  miles  (Hawk  Springs)  before  being  seriously  interfered  with  by  the 
weather,  although  there  were  several  light  snows,  which  undoubtedly  interfered  with 
the  correctness  of  measurement  to  a  certain  extent. 

On  account  of  the  severity  of  the  weather  I  was  compelled  to  lie  over  at  Hawrk 
Springs  three  days.  The  weather  being  moderated,  I  attempted  to  go  on  with  the 
measurement,  and  proceeded  as  far  as  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  a  distance  of  eighty- 
seven  miles  from  Cheyenne;  but  the  weather  became  so  severe  and  the  snow  drifted  so 
badly,  that  I  consider  the  measurement  valueless  as  a  correct  one,  and,  on  account  of  the 
high  winds  drifting  the  snow,  nothing  but  the  general  direction  of  the  road  for  the  last 
twenty  miles  could  be  obtained.  Being  informed  at  old  Red  Cloud  Agency  that  it 
would  be  almost  impossible  to  reach  Red  Cloud  agency  on  account  of  the  snow,  I  was 
compelled  to  come  to  this  post  for  rations,  where  I  have  since  been  assigned  to  duty. 
It  is  my  opinion  that  it  will  be  six  weeks  or  two  mouths  before  the  measurement  can 
be  resumed,  as  the  weather  is  still  severe,  with  more  or  less  snow  every  day;  and  the 
route  to  be  measured  being  rarely  traveled  during  the  winter,  the  snow  and  snow-drifts 
will  remain  a  long  time. 

When  the  measurement  is  resumed  it  should  be  recommenced  from  Cheyenne, 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  H.  WINTERS, 
Second  Lieutenant,  Twenty-third  Infantry. 

ASSISTANT  ADJUTANT-GENERAL, 

Department  of  the  Platte,  Omaha,  Xebr. 

[  Indorsement.] 

HEADQUARTEES  DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  PLATTE, 

Omaha,  Nebr.,  January  25,  1875. 

Respectfully  forwarded  through  Headquarters  Military  Division  of  the  Missouri  to 
the  Adjutant  General  U.  S.  A.  The  measurement  of  the  route  between  Cheyenne  and 
Red  Cloud  agency  will,  on  account  of  the  weather,  be  deferred  necessarily  for  six 
weeks  or  two  mouths. 

E.  O.  C.  ORD, 
Brigadier-General,  Commanding. 

WAR  DEPARTMENT,  ADJUTANT  GENERAL'S  OFFICE, 

Washington,  February  3,  1875. 

Official  copy. 

E.  D.  TOWNSEND, 

Adjutant  General. 
The  honorable  the  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


EVIDENCE   AS   TO   DISTANCE. 

Affidavit  of  Eicliard  Dunn  and  others. 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  Laramie  County,  Territory 
of  Wyoming,  Richard  Dunn,  of  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  who,  being  duly  sworn,  deposes  and 
says  that  he  has  been  engaged  in  the  transportation  of  Indian  goods  and  supplies  from. 
Cheyenne  to  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency,  in  Nebraska,  during  a  period  of  fourteen 
months,  from  July,  A.  D.  1874,  to  the  present  time,  and  that  during  that  time  his  train 
has  traveled  the  route  known  as  the  "  Eastern  road,"  via  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  thence 
down  the  Platte  River  sixteen  miles,  thence  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency;  that  the  dis 
tance  thus  traveled  is  as  follows :  From  Cheyenne  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  one 


791 

hundred  miles;  down  the  Platte,  sixteen  miles;  from  the  Platte  to  the  Red  Cloud 
agency,  eighty  miles — making  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency  one 
hundred  and  ninety-six  miles  by  the  Eastern  road;  that  he  has  also  traveled  the  road 
via  Red  Cloud  agency  (old  agency)  and  Fort  Laramie,  thence  via  White  River  to  Red 
Cloud  agency ;  that  this  route  was  the  one  traveled  during  the  period  of  high  water 
in  the  Platte,  which  is  generally  from  March  till  August;  that  the  distance  from 
Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency  via  this  route  is  as  follows  :  From  Cheyenne  to  old  Red 
Cloud  agency,  one  hundred  miles ;  from  old  Red  Cloud  agency  to  Fort  Laramie,  forty 
miles  ;  from  Fort  Laramie  to  Red  Cloud  agency,  eighty-six  miles  by  the  route  actually 
traveled  by  cattle  trains — making  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency 
via  this  route  two  hundred  and  twenty-six  miles.  Deponent  further  states  that  he  has 
seen  a  report  of  a  statement  made  by  him  to  the  commission  of  which  Hon.  Thomas 
C.  Fletcher  was  chairman,  to  the  effect  that  he  stated  the  distance  from  Cheyenne  to 
Red  Cloud  agency  to  be  one  hundred  and  eighty  miles.  Deponent  says  that  he  did 
state  the  distance  to  be  one  hundred  and  eighty  miles  or  one  hundred  and  eight-five 
miles,  but  he  distinctly  stated  said  distance  to  be  by  the  mail  route,  directly  north  from 
the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  that  he  then  stated  that  no  freight  traveled  said  route 
Deponent  states  that  he  never  traveled  said  route  while  engaged  in  freighting  for  D 
J.  McCann. 

RICHARD  DUNN. 

Andrew  Shepard,  Simoon  B.  Kerns,  and  Charles  Mansfield,  all  residents  of  Laramie 
County,  Wyo.,  being  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  depose  and  say  that  they  are  em- 
ploy6s  of  Richard  Dunn,  the  foregoing  affiant;  that  they  have  read  the  foregoing 
affidavit  of  said  Richard  Dunn,  and  that  they  know  of  their  personal  knowledge  that 
the  statements  made  by  said  Richard  Dunn  in  said  affidavit  are  true. 

ANDREW  SHEPARD. 
SIMEON  B.  KERNS. 
CHARLES  MANSFIELD. 
Signatures  witnessed  by  me — 
L.  C.  STEVENS. 

TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Laramie,  ss : 

I,  L.  C.  Stevens,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  in  the  Territory  aforesaid,  do 
hereby  certify  that  Richard  Dunn,  personally  known  to  me  to  be  the  identical  person 
described  in  the  foregoing  affidavit  subscribed  by  him,  appeared  before  me  this  day  in 
person,  and  subscribed  the  same  in  my  presence,  and,  being  duly  sworn  according  to 
law,  made  oath  that  the  statements  therein  contained  were  true.  I  do  further  certify 
that  Andrew  Shepard,  Simeon  B.  Kerns,  and  Charles  Mansfield,  personally  known  to 
me  to  be  the  identical  persons  described  in  the  foregoing  affidavit  subscribed  by  them, 
appeared  before  me  this  day  in  person,  and,  being  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  made 
oath  that  the  statements  therein  contained  were  true. 

Given  under  my  hand  and  notarial  seal  this  second  day  of  Sentember,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  L.  C.  STEVENS, 

Notary  Public. 
TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Laramie,  ss  : 

I,  George  B.  Stimpson,  clerk  of  the  county  within  and  for  the  county  and  Territory 
aforesaid,  do  hereby  certify  that  L.  C.  Stevens,  whose  name  is  subscribed  to  the  fore 
going  instrument  and  certificate  of  acknowledgment,  is,  and  was  at  the  time  of  so 
doing,  a  duly  commissioned  and  qualified  notary  public  within  and  for  the  county  and 
Territory  aforesaid  ;  that  all  his  official  acts  as  such  are  entitled  to  full  faith  and 
credit ;  that  said  attestation  is  in  due  form  of  law,  and  that  his  signature  thereto  is 
genuine. 

Witness  my  hand  and  the  seal  of  said  county  hereto  affixed,  at  my  office,  in  the  city 
of  Cheyenne,  this  3d  day  of  September,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  B.  STIMPSON, 

Clerk  of  said  County,  ex-officio  Re(/ister  of  Deeds. 


Affidavit  of  J.  Vigil  and  J.  U.  Basque  z. 

COUNTY  OF  LARAMIE, 

Territory  of  Wyoming,  August  27,  1875. 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  the  county  aforesaid,  thi  s 
27th  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1875,  Juan  Vigil  and  Joseph  U.  Basquez,  both  of  Cheyenne, 


792 

'in  the  Territory  of  Wyoming,  who,  being  duly  sworn,  depose  and  say  that  they  have 
been  engaged  in  freighting  between  Cheyenne  and  the  Red  Cloud  Indian  agency  in 
Nebraska  for  the  period  of  three  years  last  past,  and  are  well  acquainted  with  the  dif 
ferent  routes  traveled  by  loaded  trains  engaged  in  the  transportation  of  Indian  goods 
and  supplies  between  the  points  above  named.  The  route  traveled  by  trains  engaged  in 
said  transportation,  during  the  period  of  low  water  in  the  Platte  River,  is  by  the  old  Red 
Cloud  agency,  crossing  the  river  at  that  point,  and  thence  down  the  north  bank  of  the 
Platte  sixteen  to  eighteen  miles,  thence  north  to  the  agency  by  what  is  known  as  the 
lower,  or  eastern  road.  The  distance  from  Cheyenne  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  as  actu 
ally  traveled  by  loaded  trains  by  this  route,  is  two  hundred  and  ten  to  two  hundred 
and  fifteen  miles.  The  route  traveled  by  loaded  trains  during  the  period  of  high  water 
in  the  Platte  River,  which,  the  present  season,  has  been  from  March  I  to  August  1,  is 
"by  the  eastern  road  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency,  thence  to  Fort  Laramie,  where  the 
river  is  crossed  by  a  ferry,  thence  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  and  the  distance  necessarily 
traveled  by  this  route  by  said  trains  is  two  hundred  and  fifteen  miles.  The  time 
occupied  in  making  the  trip  from  Cheyenne  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency  by  either  route 
is  fifteen  to  sixteen  days,  depending  upon  the  weather  and  the  condition  of  the  roads. 
The  average  distance  traveled  by  a  loaded  train  each  day  is  fifteen  miles,  or  one  hun 
dred  miles  per  week. 

JUAN  VIJIL. 

JOSEPH  U.  BASQUEZ. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  27th  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  E.  SPARKS, 

Notary  Public. 
TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Laramie,  ss  : 

I,  Geo.  B.  Stimpson,  clerk  of  the  county  within  and  for  the  county  and  Territory 
aforesaid,  do  hereby  certify  that  E.  Sparks,  whose  name  is  subscribed  to  the  foregoing 
instrument  and  certificate,  is,  and  was  at  the  time  of  so  doing,  duly  commissioned  and 
qualified  notary  public  within  and  for  the  county  and  Territory  aforesaid,  that  all  his 
official  acts  as  such  are  entitled  to  full  faith  and  credit,  that  said  attestation  is  in  due 
form  of  law,  and  that  his  signature  thereto  is  genuine. 

Witness  my  hand  and  the  seal  of  said  county  hereto  affixed  at  my  office  in  the  city 
of  Cheyenne,  this  8th  day  of  September,  A.  D.  1875. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  B.  STIMPSON, 

Cleric  of  said  County,  ex-officio  Register  of  Deeds. 


THE  APPLETON  BUILDING  CONTRACT. 
Agent  Sarille  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

CHEYENNE,  August  17,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  herewith  to  transmit  a  proposition  of  A.  R.  Appleton,  to  saw 
the  lumber  and  the  shingles,  and  complete  the  agency  buildings  now  in  course  of 
erection,  and  build  a  slaughter-house  and  issuing-corral.  This  proposition  is  very 
reasonable  and  lower  than  I  can  have  the  same  work  done  by  employing  men  by  the 
month.  It  will  also  hasten  the  work,  which  is  very  desirable,  as  it  is  getting  late  in 
the  season  and  we  are  likely  to  be  again  overtaken  by  winter. 

I  think  it  an  advantage  to  the  Government  to  preserve  beef  by  freezing,  and  I  wish 
to  do  it  this  fall.  In  order  to  do  this  it  will  be  necessary  to  have  a  slaughter-house.  I 
therefore  respectfully  request  permission  to  make  a  contract  with  Mr.  Appleton  for  the 
above  work  on  the  basis  of  his  proposition. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


A.  E.  Appleton  to  Agent  Saville. 

CHEYENNE,  WYO.,  August  17. 

DEAR  SIR  :  Inclosed  please  find  proposition  for  the  completion  of  your  work,  already 
commenced,  and  the  erection  of  such  new  ones  as  you  need,  together  with  the  sawing 
of  lumber,  the  making  and  laying  of  shingles,  &c.,  &c. 


793 

In  making  my  estimate  and  affixing  prices  therefor,  I  believe  my  prices  will  reduce 
the  cost  to  Government  very  ranch  in  this,  that  I  can  sub-let  a  portion  of  it,  and  give 
piece-work  to  others,  and  then  if  they  are  disposed  to  work  twelve  or  fourteen  hours 
per  day  in  order  to  make  large  wages,  it  is  their  own  affair  and  not  yours.  I  think  it 
can  be  handled  in  this  way  by  me  much  more  economically  than  it  would  be  possible 
for  you  to  do  the  same  work  by  the  day  or  week  ;  and  by  giving  out  piece-work,  and 
inducing  carpenters  to  work  as  many  hours  as  possible,  I  can  complete  ail  the  build 
ings  before  winter  sets  in. 
Yours,  &c., 

A.  R.  APPLETON. 
Dr.  J.  J.  SAVILLE. 

Red  Cloud  Agency,  Dak. 


APPLETON'S  PROPOSITION. 
Dr.  J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Eed  Cloud  Agency,  D.  T.  : 

SIR:  I  propose  to  handle  the  logs  furnished,  and  saw  the  lumber  required  to  finish 
and  build  the  buildings  you  need,  for  $14  per  thousand  feet. 

I  also  propose  to  saw  the  shingles  and  lay  the  same  subject  to  your  directions,  you 
furnishing  the  necessary  nails  therefor,  for  $10  per  thousand  shingles,  measured  on  the 
roof. 

The  above  propositions  based  upon  your  furnishing  me  the  use  of  your  saw-mill, 
shingle-machine,  and  cntting-off  saw,  with  the  engineer  to  run  and  keep  the  same  in 
order,  and  subject  to  my  orders,  and  your  approval. 

I  further  propose  to  build  (you  furnishing  material)  a  slaughter-house  20  by  28  feet 
square,  12-foot  story ;  said  building  to  be  planked  up  and  down  or  perpendicular,  with 
2-inch  plank,  battened  over  joint,  2-inch  floor-planks,  with  two  drainage-gutters,  also 
two  sliding  runs  for  hanging  beeves  upon,  two  sets  of  hoisting-machinery,  with  doors, 
scuttles,  windows,  &c.,  necessary  to  make  it  a  complete  slaughter-house,  all  complete 
for  the  further  sum  of  $450. 

I  also  propose  to  build  a  cattle-corral  in  connection  with  said  slaughter-house,  100 
by  200  feet,  7  feet  high,  posts  7  feet  apart,  two  girt,  and  boarded  up  and  down,  edge  to 
edge,  with  a  division  in  the  center ;  also,  to  take  up  and  reset  the  cattle-scales,  and 
build  a  small  house  over  the  balance  or  weighing  part  of  them  for  the  weigher  ;  also, 
a  slaughter-pen,  30  by  30  feet  square,  10  feet  high,  2-inch  plank,  edge  to  edge ;  said 
corral  and  slaughter-pen  to  have  a  plank  protection  2  by  12  inches,  thoroughly  spiked 
all  around  upon  the  posts,  on  the  inside  2^  feet  from  the  ground,  all  of  which  I  propose 
to  do  for  the  additional  sum  of  $384. 

I  also  propose  that  I  will  finish  your  unfinished  buildings,  ceilings,  casings,  batten 
ing,  weather-boarding,  &e.,  as  originally  designed  to  make  them  comfortable — by  the 
day— at  $3.25  per  day. 
Yours,  &c.. 

A.  R.  APPLETON. 


Acting  Commissioner  Clum  to  Agent  Saville. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  August  25,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  17th  instant,  submitting  proposition  of  A. 
R.  Appleton,  to  saw  the  lumber  and  shingles,  and  complete  the  agency  buildings  now 
in  course  of  erection  at  your  agency  ;  also,  to  build  a  slaughter-house  and  corral ;  and 
in  accordance  with  your  recommendation,  authority  is  hereby  granted  you  to  contract 
with.  Mr.  Appletou  on  the  terms  proposed  by  him,  for  the  work  therein  named,  submit 
ting  said  contract,  upon  its  execution,  for  the  approval  of  the  Department. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

H.  R.  CLUM, 
Acting  Commissioner. 
J.  J.  SAVILLE,  Esq., 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Cloud  Agency,  D.  T. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  October  5,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  herewith  to  transmit  a  contract  and  bond  entered  into  with 
A.  R  .Appleton  for  sawing  lumber  and  shingles,  finishing  the  agency  buildings,  and  build- 


794 

ing  a  slaughter-house  and  issuing  corral,  in  accordance  with  proposition  submitted  by 
him  August  17,  1874.  On  arrival  at  the  agency  and  commencing  the  work,  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  found  that  he  could  do  the  sawing  and  shingle-making  cheaper  than  he  had  esti 
mated,  and  therefore  put  the  price  of  sawing  to  $12,  and  of  making  and  laying  the 
shingles  to  $8  per  thousand. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


THE   CONTRACT. 

Articles  of  agreement,  made  and  entered  into  this  30fcb  day  of  September,  A.  D.  eight" 
een  hundred  and  seventy-four,  by  and  between  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian 
agent,  for  and  on  behalf  of  the  United  States  of  America,  of  the  iirst  part,  and  A.  R. 
Appletou,  of  Sioux  City,  Iowa,  of  the  second  part,  witnesseth  : 

That  the  said  party  of  the  second  part  agrees  to  handle  the  logs  furnished  and  saw 
the  lumber  required  to  finish  and  build  the  buildings  needed  at  the  agency  for  ($12) 
twelve  dollars  per  thousand  feet ;  further,  to  saw  the  shingles  and  lay  the  same,  the 
nails  therefor  being  furnished  for  ($8)  eight  dollars  per  thousand,  shingles  measured  on 
the  roof. 

It  is  further  agreed  that  the  use  of  the  saw-mill,  shingle-machine,  and  cutting-off 
saw,  and  the  services  of  the  engineer  to  run  and  keep  the  same  in  order,  be  furnished 
the  party  of  the  second  part  for  the  purposes  herein  mentioned. 

The  said  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  build,  material  being  furnished, 
a  slaughter-house  20  X  28  feet,  12  foot  story  ;  said  building  to  be  planked  up  and  down 
with  2-inch  plank,  battened  over  the  joints,  the  floor  to  consist  of  2-inch  plank,  with 
two  drainage-gutters. 

Also  two  sliding  runs  for  hanging  beeves  upon,  two  sets  hoisting-machinery,  with 
doors,  scuttles,  windows,  &c.,  necessary  to  make  it  a  complete  slaughter-house. 

Also  to  build  a  cattle-corral  in  connection  with  said  slaughter-house  100  X  200  feet, 
posts  7  feet  high  and  7  feet  apart,  with  two  girths,  boarded  up  and  down  edge  to  edge, 
with  a  division  in  the  center;  also  to  take  up  and  reset  the  cattle-scales,  and  build  a 
small  house  over  the  balance  or  weighing  part  of  said  scale. 

Also  a  slaughter-pen  30  X  30  feet,  10  feet  high,  2-inch  plank,  edge  to  edge  ;  said  corral 
and  slaughter-pen  to  have  a  plank  protection  2  by  12  inches,  thoroughly  spiked  all 
around  upon  the  posts  on  the  inside  2£  feet  from  the  ground.  The  necessary  shoots 
and  gates  for  driving  cattle  in  and  out  are  included  in  this  contract.  The  sum  of  $834 
to  be  paid  for  the  building  of  said  slaughter-house,  corral,  &c. 

Said  party  of  the  second  part  further  agrees  to  complete  the  unfinished  buildings, 
such  as  ceilings,  casings,  battening,  and  weather-boarding,  as  originally  designed,  for 
the  sum  of  ($3.25)  three  -fjfrr  dollars  per  day. 

In  consideration  of  the  faithful  performance  of  this  agreement  on  the  part  of  the 
party  of  the  second  part,  the  said  party  of  the  first  part  agrees  to  pay  or  cause  to  be 
paid  to  the  said  party  of  the  second  part,  his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  for  all 
work  performed  under  this  contract,  the  sums  of  money  as  hereinbefore  mentioned. 

It  is,  however,  further  agreed,  that  before  the  United  States  shall  be  bound  by  this 
contract,  a  bond  in  the  sum  of  five  thousand  dollars  ($5,000)  shall  be  executed  by  the 
said  party  of  the  second  part,  with  two  or  more  good  and  sufficient  sureties,  said  bond 
to  be  conditioned  for  the  faithful  performance  of  this  contract  in  all  its  particulars  by 
the  said  party  of  the  second  part. 

In  witness  whereof  the  parties  have  hereunto  sst  their  hands  and  seals  the  day  and 
year  above  written. 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
A.  R.  APPLETON. 

Signed  in  presence  of — 
JAMES  ROBERTS. 

Know  all  men  by  these  presents  that  we,  A.  R.  Appleton,  of  Sioux  City,  Iowa,  and 
J.  \V.  Dear,  and  A.  F.  Curtis,  of  Red  Cloud  agency,  as  sureties,  are  held  and  firmly 
bound  unto  the  United  States  of  America  in  the  sum  of  five  thousand  ($5,000)  dollars, 
lawful  money  of  the  said  United  States,  for  which  payment  well  and  truly  to  be  made, 
we  hereby  bind  ourselves  and  each  of  us,  our  heirs,  executors,  and  administrators,  jointly 
and  severally,  firmly  by  these  presents. 


795 

The  condition  of  this  obligation  is  such,  that  if  the  above-bounden  A.  R.  Appleton, 
his  heirs,  executors,  or  administrators,  or  any  of  them,  shall  observe,  perform,  and  ful 
fill,  all  and  singular,  the  covenants  and  agreements  mentioned  and  contained  in  a  cer 
tain  contract  of  even  date  herewith  between  the  United  States,  by  J.  J.  Saville,  United 
States  Indian  agent,  and  the  said  A.  R.  Appleton,  then  and  in  that  case  this  obligation 
shall  be  null  and  void  ;  otherwise  to  remain  in  full  force  and  virtue. 

In  testimony  whereof  we  have  hereunto  set  our  hands  and  seals  this  30fch  day  of  Sep 
tember,  A.  D.  1874. 

A.  R.  APPLETON. 
J.  W.  DEAR. 
A.  F.  CURTIS. 
In  presence  of — 

JAMES  ROBERTS. 


A.  R.  Appleton  to  Inspector  Bevier. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  October  5,  1874. 

DEAR  SIR:  Since  you  left  I  have  considered  your  suggestions  with  reference  to  the 
price  I  was  to  receive  for  the  work  done  here;  although  the  amount  of  work  per 
formed  per  day  is  not  as  great  as  we  expected  or  calculated  upon,  but  sufficiently  great 
for  me  to  conform  in  some  degree  to  your  wishes.  The  reduction,  as  you  will  see  by 
examining  the  contract,  will  amount  to  about  $500. 

Hoping  this  will  be  satisfactory,  I  am.  yours,  respectfully, 

A.  R.  APPLETOX. 
Dr.  J.  D.  BEVIER, 

Grand  liapids,  Mich. 
P.  S. — Please  write  me. 


Inspector  Bevier  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  October  21,  1874. 

SIR  :  Inclosed  I  have  the  honor  to  forward  a  contract  for  your  approval,  entered  into 
between  Agent  Saville  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency  and  Mr.  A.  R.  Appleton. 

On  the  occasion  of  my  recent  visit  to  this  agency  I  found  Mr.  Appleton  engaged  in 
manufacturing  lumber,  roofing  the  buildings,  &c.,  and  upon  inquiry  Agent  Saville  in 
formed  me  that  the  contract  had  not  been  executed  ;  that  he  had  neglected  it  from  day 
to  day,  but  that  the  matter  was  all  perfectly  understood  between  himself,  Mr.  Apple- 
ton,  and  the  Department ;  that  Mr.  Appleton  had  submitted  to  him  in  writing  his  prop 
ositions,  which  he  had  forwarded  to  your  Office,  asking  permission  to  close  a  contract 
upon  the  terms  therein  stated,  and  that  the  honorable  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
had  replied  giving  him  such  permission,  with  instructions  to  forward  the  contract  to 
his  Office  for  approval. 

I  asked  to  see  the  correspondence  which  I  found  as  above  stated. 

Upon  visiting  the  mill  I  first  ascertained  that  all  the  men  engaged  in  the  making  of 
lumber  were  Government  employe's  up  to  the  19th  September,  the  day  I  was  expected 
there,  as  I  had  written  Agent  Saville  I  would  be  in  Cheyenne  the  14th,  which  would 
make  me  due  at  Red  Cloud  on  or  soon  after  the  19th. 

I  next  ascertained  that  Mr.  Matthews,  who  is  carried  on  the  rolls  as  engineer,  had 
been,  was,  and  would  continue  to  do  all  the  sawing ;  Mr.  Appleton  having  in  his 
employ  in  lieu  of  Mathews  the  engineer,  the  fireman,  a  cheap  laborer,  who  does  the 
work  of  fireman  and  engineer. 

The  agency-teams  and  agency-teamsters  were  engaged  in  picking  up  the  shingles 
and  lumber,  and  carting  them  when  needed. 

I  found  upon  examining  a  Mr.  Burch,  an  intelligent  carpenter,  in  the  presence  of 
Agent  Saville,  that  the  custom  in  that  country,  and  in  Colorado  and  Wyoming  Terri 
tories,  where  Mr.  Burch  had  for  some  years  been  engaged  in  making  lumber,  was  $4 
per  thousand,  the  mill  and  logs  being  furnished,  without  the  engineer  or  any  other 
help  ;  the  men  being  boarded  by  the  mill-owner,  as  Mr.  Appletou's  are,  and  that  when 
the  engineer  was  furnished,  as  in  this  case,  the  price  per  thousand  should  be  corre 
spondingly  less. 

Mr.  Appleton's  price  is  $14  per  thousand.     As  to  the  cutting  and  the  laying  of  the 

shingles,  Mr.  Burch,  Mr.  Thompson,  and  Mr. ,  all  carpenters,  who  also  made  their 

statement  in  the  presence  of  Agent  Saville,  say  it  is  worth  $1.50  per  thousand  for  lay 
ing  shingles,  and  from  50  to  75  cents  for  cutting  them,  thus  making  the  total  cost  for 
cutting  and  laying  between  two  and  three  dollars  per  thousand.  Mr.  Appleton's  price, 
$10  per  thousand. 

The  slaughter-house  and  pen  Mr.  Appleton  has  sublet  to  this  same  Mr.  Burch  for 
$180.  Mr.  Appleton's  price  for  slaughter-house  alone,  without  the  pen,  is  $4.50.  (See 
his  original  propositions.) 


776 

Some  of  those  carpenters  told  me  they  were  anxious  to  get  the  above  work  at  the 
prices  they  named,  and  were  watching  for  the  opportunity,  when  to  their  surprise  and 
disappointment  they  learned  it  was  privately  let  to  Mr.  A. 

I  then  stated  to  Agent  Saville  that  I  should  oppose  the  contract,  for  the  reason  that 
the  prices  were  exorbitant,  and  that  the  Commissioner's  consent  to  the  same  had  been 
obtained  through  misrepresentation,  (see  Agent  Saville's  letter  accompanying  Mr. 
A.'s  proposition,)  and  among  other  things  said  to  him,  "  You  board  Mr.  Appleton's 
men/'  &c.  He  said,  "  No."  I  told  Mr.  A.  he  must  pay  me  for  the  board  of  his  men. 
His  manner  convinced  me  that  such  was  not  true,  aud  thereupon  I  called  in  Mr.  A., 
and  in  the  presence  of  Agent  Saville,  and  without  giving  them  any  time  for  confer 
ence  or  consultation,  said  to  Mr.  A.,  "  Dr.  Saville  boards  your  men  ?"  "  Yes,"  says  he, 
"  I  told  the  doctor  he  must  ration  my  men,"  &c.,  &c.  They  plead  with  me  not  to  in 
terrupt  the  contract,  assigning,  or  trying  to  assign,  various  reasons  in  support  of  their 
terms.  As  it  was  growing  late  I  suggested  we  would  sleep  upon  it  and  would  see  them 
in  the  morning.  In  the  morning,  feeling  unwilling  to  stop  all  the  work  then  in  pro 
gress,  I  told  Mr.  Appleton  if  he  would  alter  his  terras  and  put  them  down  to  some 
thing  near  reasonable,  and  write  a  contract  accordingly  aud  forward  to  me,  I  would 
carry  it  to  Washington  and  would  not  oppose  it.  He  said  he  did  not  like  to  alter  his 
terms;  it  would  look  as  though  he  originally  designed  to  drive  a  sharp  bargain  with 
the  Government,  and  if  I  would  consent  to  let  it  remain  he  would  share  with  me  the 
profits,  &,c.  I  replied,  saying  that  he  might  change  his  terms  without  unnecessarily 
reflecting  upon  his  good  faith,  and  assign  as  a  reason  that,  after  getting  on  the  ground 
and  learning  more  as  to  the  facilities  at  hand,  he  conld  see  his  way  out  at  lower 
rates,  &c. 

I  left  that  morning  for  Cheyenne.  On  my  arrival  there,  I  wrote  Dr.  Saville  the  fol 
lowing  letter : 

"CHEYENNE,  \V.  T.,  October  5,  1874. 

"SiR :  Should  Mr.  Appleton  conclude  to  discontinue  his  work  on  account  of  the  un 
certainty  of  getting  a  contract,  in  that  case  you  will  make  no  settlement  with  him 
until  such  time  and  in  such  manner  as  the  honorable  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
may  direct. 

"You  will  continue  the  contract  for  delivering  logs,  and  the  contract  with  Burch 
to  complete  the  slaughter-house  aud  pen,  and  pay  him  the  price  agreed  upon,  viz,  $180, 
less  what  Mr.  Appleton  may  have  paid  him. 

"You  will  continue  the  manufacturing  of  lumber  and  shingles;  the  roofing  of  the 
buildings;  the  building  of  the  corral,  and  moving  aud  resetting  the  scales;  and  select 
some  good  man  to  superintend  the  work,  and  employ  such  temporary  help  as  may  be 
necessary  to  carry  it  on.  Mr.  Appleton  will  be  re-imbursed  for  any  money  paid  his 
hands,  and  a  just  and  fair  compensation  allowed  him  for  his  time  and  services. 

"J.  D.  BEVIER,  etc. 

"J.  J.  SAVILLE,  etc." 

Mr  Appleton,  according  to  promise,  has  forwarded  to  me  his  contract  slightly  mod 
ified,  and  I,  according  to  promise,  forward  it  to  you.  While  the  prices  for  sawing  lum 
ber,  and  making  aud  laying  shingles,  building  slaughter-house  aud  pen  aud  corral, 
resetting  scales,  &c.,  may  be  four  times  what  it  should  be,  yet  there  are  bounds  and 
limits  to  those  items.  The  last  proposition  I  regard  as  most  objectionable,  which  per 
petuates  his  stay  interminable. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  D.  BEVIER, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  J).  C. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Bishop  Hare. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  1).  C.,  October  22,  1874. 

SIR:  I  inclose  herewith,  for  your  information,  a  contract  made  by  Agent  Saville 
with  A.  R.  Appleton  for  the  performance  of  certain  work  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency, 
together  with  a  communication  from  Inspector  Bevier  relative  thereto. 

Please  return  all  the  papers  at  the  earliest  opportunity;  and  I  will  thank  you  if,  at 
your  convenience,  you  will  submit  to  this  Office  your  views  respecting  the  matter. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
Rt.  Rev.  WM.  H.  HARE, 

30  Bible-Home,  Xew  York  City. 


797 

Bishop  Hare  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

NEW  YORK,  October  26,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  return  herewith  a  contract  made  by  Agent  Saville  with  A.  R.  Appleton,  to 
gether  with  a  communication  from  Inspector  Bevier. 

I  am  not  competent  to  judge  of  the  fairness  of  the  contract,  but  the  whole  affair,  if 
justly  stated  by  the  inspector,  is  discreditable  to  the  agent,  and  I  think  that  he  should 
be  called  upon  to  explain  it. 

It  should  be  remembered,  however,  that  the  inspector  may  have  a  personal  reason 
for  desiring  to  make  the  agent  smart.  To  refer  to  another  matter,  if  the  proposal  to 
raise  the  United  States  flag  was  the  occasion  of  the  attack  described  in  the  telegram 
which  appeared  in  the  morning's  papers,  it  was  a  gratuitous  provocation  of  the  Indians 
by  Agent  Saville,  which  shows  great  lack  of  common  sense. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

WILLIAM  H.  HARE, 
By  C.  H.  SMITH. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  I),  C. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Agent  Saville. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  October  29,  1874. 

SIR  :  1  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your  communication  of  the  5th  instant,  inclosing, 
for  the  action  of  the  Department,  articles  of  agreement  entered  into  by  you  with  A.  R. 
Appleton  for  sawing  lumber  and  shingles,  finishing  the  agency-buildings,  and  for  the 
construction  of  a  slaughter-house  and  issuiug-corral  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency. 

In  reply,  I  have  to  advise  you  that  the  contract  is  disapproved.  You  are  directed 
to  pay  the  subcontractors  the  several  amounts  due  them  for  services  rendered  under 
the  agreement  with  Mr.  Appleton,  said  accounts  to  be  sworn  to  as  to  correctness,  &c., 
prior  to  settlement.  All  other  persons  employed  by  you  to  carry  on  the  work  will  be 
paid  a  per  diem  for  labor  actually  performed,  the  prices  to  be  reasonable  and  the  time 
sworn  to,  as  set  forth  above. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  lied  Cloud  Agency,  Dakota  Territory. 


Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  D.  T., 

November  12, 1874:. . 

SIR  :  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  communication  of  October  29,  disapproving  the  con 
tract  with  A.  R.  Appletou,  and  directing  me  "  to  pay  the  subcontractors  the  several 
amounts  due  them  for  services  rendered  under  their  agreements  with  Mr.  Appleton, 
said  accounts  to  be  s\voru  to  as  to  correctness.  &c.,  prior  to  settlements.  All  other 
persons  employed  by  you  (me)  to  carry  on  the  work  will  be  paid  a  per  diem  for  labor 
actually  performed,  the  prices  to  be  reasonable  and  the  time  swrom  to,  as  set  forth 
above." 

In  reply  I  would  respectfully  state  that,  prior  to  the  reception  of  your  letter,  the 
only  subcontractor,  Mr.  Birch,  who  undertook  to  partly  build  the  slaughter-house,  had 
finished  his  work  and  Mr.  Appleton  had  settled  with  him. 

All  men  employed  to  carry  on  the  work  were  employed  by  Mr.  Appleton  and  paid, 
by  him.  On  reception  of  your  letter,  on  the  6th  instant,  the  work  was  suspended. 
Mr.  Appleton  settled  with  his  men,  and  the  most  of  them  left  for  Cheyenne.  It  is 
therefore  impossible  for  me  to  comply  with  the  letter  of  your  instructions,  as  Mr.  Ap 
pleton  is  the  only  party  present  that  I  know  in  the  business. 

In  explanation,  I  would  respectfully  state,  that  the  unfinished  condition  of  the  agency- 
buildings  was  a  source  of  embarrassments  to  me,  as  well  as  in  some  respects  a  loss  to 
the  Government.  On  August  17,  1874, 1  forwarded  to  your  Office  a  proposition  by  A. 
R.  Appleton,  a  competent  builder,  to  finish  these  buildings.  This  proposition  I  then 
considered,  as  I  do  now,  reasonable  and  advantageous  to  the  Government.  In  accord 
ance  with  your  letter  of  approval  of  August  25, 1874, 1  notified  Mr.  Appleton  to  com- 


798 

mence  the  \vork,  as  it  was  necessar}7  to  push  the  work  in  order  to  get  it  done  before 
winter  set  in,  after  the  work  had  been  commenced,  but  before  the  contract  was  written. 
Inspector  Bevier  visited  the  agency,  and  objected  to  some  of  the  prices  of  work  in  Mr. 
Appleton's  proposition,  and  suggested  to  me  to  have  Mr.  Appleton  modify  his  proposi 
tion.  I  informed  him  that  I  had  already  passed  my  judgment  upon  the  propositions; 
that  I  considered  them  reasonable  ;  that  I  had  in  good  faith  entered  into  the  agreement, 
and  therefore  would  not  ask  Mr.  Appletou  to  modify  his  proposition,  but  if  he  chose 
to  suspend  the  work  to  do  so,  and  I  was  willing  it  should  be  referred  to  the  Depart 
ment.  I  also  stated  to  him  that  if  he  could  come  to  an  understanding  with  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  to  modify  his  proposition  it  would  be  satisfactory  to  me.  Mr.  Appleton  did  make 
such  modification  as  stated  in  my  letter  of  trausmittal  accompanying  the  contract, 
and  I  understood  that  it  was  satisfactory  to  Mr.  Bevier,  and  at  the  suggestion  of  In 
spector  Bevier  sent  the  contract  through  him. 

If  this  contract  is  not  satisfactory  to  the  Department,  and  I  have  committed  an  error 
in  making  it,  I  am  willing  in  any  honorable  way  to  correct  the  error,  but  the  implica 
tion,  possibly  unintentionally  conveyed  in  the  letter  of  the  honorable  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs,  that  there  is  in  it  other  than  the  most  open  and  fair  dealing,  I  most 
respectfully,  but  most  positively,  repudiate. 

The  work  under  the  contract  was  being  rapidly  pushed  forward,  and  two  weeks 
more  would  have  completed  it.  By  this  suspension  the  slaughter-house  and  corral 
remain  unfinished  and  a  part  of  the  barn  uushingled;  also,  480  logs,  measuring  42,976 
feet  lumber,  unsawed. 

I  herewith  inclose  Mr.  Appleton's  statement  of  the  work  done,  and  respectfully 
request  further  instructions  relative  thereto. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 


AppUtorfs  statement. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  P.  T., 

November  10,  1874. 

The  United  States  to  A.  E.  Appleton. 

To  sawing  62,060  feet  lumber,  at  $12  per  M $744  72 

To  making  and  laying  121,401  shingles,  at  $8  per  M 971  20 

To  making  15,760  shingles,  at  $5  per  M 78  80 

To  building  slaughter-house 250  00 

To  125  days'  work,  at  $3.25  per  day 406  25 

$2,450  97 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Agent  Saville. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

December  21,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  12th  ultimo,  relative  to  the  contract  entered 

into  by  you  with  A.  R.  Appletou  for  the  construction  of  certain  buildings  at  the  Red 

Cloud  agency,  said  contract  having  been  disapproved  by  this  Office,  and  inclosing  a 

statement  of  the  amount  of  work  performed  by  Mr.  Appleton,  with  the  cost  of  the  same. 

In  reply,  I  have  to  say  that  I  have  given  your  statement  a  careful  consideration  ; 

but  I  am  not  able  to  see  how  it  can  be  worth  $12  per  M  feet  to  saw  the  lumber  referred 

to  by  Mr.  Appleton,  wiien  the  mill  and  logs  and  engineer  were  furnished  without  any 

cost  to  him,  and  where  the  ordinary  rates  for  sawing,  where  the  whole  labor  of  cutting 

the  lumber  is  performed,  are  from  $3  to  $4,  or  $4.50  at  the  largest  figure. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
J.  J.  SAVILLE,  Esq., 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Red  Cloud  Agency,  Dakota. 


799 

Agent  Saville  to  Commissioner  Smith. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY, 

January  4,  1875. 

SIR:  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  communication  of  21st  ultimo,  relative  to  the  contract 
with  Mr.  Appleton,  &c.,  in  which  you  say,  "  I  am  not  able  to  see  how  it  can  be  worth 
$12  per  M  feet  to  saw  the  lumber  referred  to,"  "when  the  ordinary  rates  for  sawing, 
where  the  whole  labor  of  cutting  the  lumber  is  performed,  are  from  $3  to  $4,  or  $4.50  at 
the  largest  figure." 

In  reply  and  in  explanation,  I  will  state  that  1  based  my  estimate  of  the  cost  of  the 
sawing  of  the  lumber  at  this  mill  upon  what  the  mill  had  done.  This  is  one  of  Blan- 
dy's  fifteen  horse-power  portable  mills,  and  purports  to  cut  3.0GO  feet  per  day.  It, 
perhaps,  may  do  so  in  timber  20  inches  or  24  inches  in  diameter,  but  it  has  never  done 
that  here.  The  logs  here  are  pitch-pine,  knotty,  and  average  about  14  inches  in  diam 
eter.  From  this  timber  the  mill  averages,  in  sawing  lumber  for  the  agency,  about  1,200 
feet  per  day.  This  partly  results  from  the  frequent  repairs  required  upon  the  mill  as 
one  which  will  saw  ten  or  twenty  thousand  feet,  viz,  six  men  besides  the  engineer. 
The  wages  of  the  men  are  from  $2  to  $2.50  per  day. 

I  did  not  know  the  price  of  sawing  at  large  mills,  but  formed  my  judgment  upon  the 
work  the  mill  had  done. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 


Commissioner  Smith  to  Agent  Saville. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

March  19,  1875. 

SIR:  In  reply  to  your  letters  of  the  12th  November,  1874,  and  4th  January,  1875, 
relative  to  the  suspended  contract  of  A.  R.  Appleton  for  the  erection  of  certain  build 
ings  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency,  I  have  to  say  that  the  explanations  contained  in  said 
letters  are  satisfactory  to  this  Office,  and  you  are  hereby  directed  to  cause  to  be  paid 
to  Mr.  Appleton  the  amount  of  his  account,  viz,  $2,450.97,  from  funds  that  are  now,  or 
may  hereafter  be,  placed  in  your  hands  applicable  thereto. 

For  your  guidance  in  the  payment  of  the  above  account,  I  would  state  that  it  will 
be  necessary  that  the  same  should  be  stated  on  three  different  sets  of  vouchers,  as 
follows:  1st.  Sawing  62,060  feet  lumber,  at  $12  per  M,  $744.22;  making  and  laying 
121,401  shingles,  at  $8  per  M,  970.20  ;  and  making  15,760  shingles,  at  $5  per  M,  $78.80. 
2d.  For  building  slaughter-house,  $250,  accompanied  by  explanation  showing  the 
dimensions  of  the  same ;  and,  3d,  for  125  days'  work,  at  $3.25  per  day,  giving  days  and 
date  of  each  man's  service,  and  if  the  persons  who  performed  the  labor  have  been  paid 
by  Mr.  Appleton,  then  their  receipts  to  him  should  be  with  the  account  as  sub.vouchers. 
A  copy  of  this  letter  should  be  with  each  set  of  vouchers  as  your  authority  in  the 
premises. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
J.  J.  SAVILLE, 

United  States  Indian  Agent,  Eed  Cloud  Agency,  Dakota. 


THE  SAMUEL  WALKER  REPORT. 

CORRESPONDENCE. 
A. 

Secretary  Delano  to  Felix  R.  Lrunot. 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 
Washington,  D.  C.,  February  4,  1874. 

SIR:  I  am  informed,  unofficially,  that  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  of  your  office,  has  recently 
made  some  examination  into  the  conduct  of  the  agents  and  general  condition  of  affairs 


800 

at  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  by  direction  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners,  and  that  he  has  reported  to  the  board  upon  the  subject. 

If  what  I  have  heard  is  correct,  I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  request  information 
as  to  the  time  of  Mr.  Walker's  appointment,  and  by  what  authority  he  was  appointed, 
and  also  to  ask  for  a  copy  of  his  report. 

I  have  the  honor  to  be,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant. 

C.  DELANO, 

Secretary. 
Hon.  F.  R.  BRUNOT, 

President  Board  Indian  Commissioners.  Pittsburgh,  Pa. 


B. 
Felix  R.  Brunot  to  Secretary  Delano. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Pittsburgh,  February  6,  1S74. 

DEAR  SIR:  Your  letter  of  4th  instant,  stating  that  you  are  "  informed,  unofficially," 
that  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  clerk  in  the  office  of  the  board,  had  recently  made  some  ex 
aminations  at  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  by  direction  of  the  board,  request 
ing  to  know  "by  what  authority"  he  was  appointed,  and  asking  a  copy  of  his  report, 
came  to  hand  yesterday,  and  I  have  the  honor  to  reply. 

I  have  to  report,  that  through  my  own  inadvertauce  a  copy  of  Mr.  Walker's  report 
was  not  sent  to  you  at  the  proper  time.  I  laid  it  before  the  board  at  the  January 
meeting,  and,  at  my  own  suggestion,  was  instructed  by  resolution  to  transmit  it  to  you. 
Mr.  Cree  subsequently  asked  if  he  should  take  it  over,  btit  was  told  that  I  wished  to 
write  a  letter  to  accompany  it.  I  will  immediately  direct  the  secretary  of  the  board 
to  send  you  a  copy  of  the  report,  if  he  has  not  done 'so  already. 

As  to  the  time  when  Mr.  Walker  was  sent,  I  have  not  at  hand  the  precise  date,  but  I 
think  it  was  about  the  1st  of  December. 

The  authority  was  that  of  the  board,  through  its  chairman,  under  the  acts  of  Con 
gress  appointing  and  continuing  the  board  from  time  to  time. 

In  regard  to  the  report  of  Mr.  Walker,  I  may  say,  further,  that  a  few  days  before 
the  meeting  of  the  board  I  was  solicited  to  furnish  a  copy  for  the  information  of  the 
committee  of  the  missionary  society  which  had  nominated  and  was  responsible  for  the 
proper  conduct  of  the  agents  at  the  two  agencies  concerned,  at  their  meeting  to  bo 
held  in  New  York  about  the  time  of  the  board-meeting. 

Deeming  it  important  and  proper  that  this  committee  should  have  all  the  information 
in  possession  of  the  board  at  its  meeting,  which  would  give  them  light  as  to  the  con 
duct  of  their  nominees,  I  directed  a  copy  to  be  furnished  to  them,  on  condition  that  it 
was  to  be  used  solely  for  the  information  of  the  committee  in  this  connection.  I  am 
not  yet  aware  that  any  other  use  was  made  of  the  information  contained  than  to  guide 
the  committee  in  the  duty  of  securing  honesty  in  the  administration  of  the  agencies. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

FELIX  R.  BRUNOT, 

Chairman. 

Hon.  C.  DELANO, 

Secretary  of  the  Interior. 


C. 

Thomas  R.  Cree  to  Secretary  Delano. 

BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS, 

Washington,  D.  C.,  February  11,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  transmit  herewith  a  true  copy  of  the  report  made  to  Hon. 
Felix  R.  Brunot,  chairman  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissisoners,  by  Mr.  Samuel 
Walker,  of  a  visit  to  Red  Cloud  and  WThetstone  agencies. 

Also,  copies  of  affidavits  prepared  by  Mr.  Appleton  as  to  beeves  lost  October  8,  re 
ferred  to  in  the  report,  and  affidavit  of  Mr.  J.  Ecoffeas  to  Dr.  Saville  having  whisky 
on  the  reservation. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

THOMAS  K.  CREE, 

Secretary. 
The  Hon.  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR. 


801 

D. 

THE    REPORT. 

The  Red  Cloud  Agency. 

WASHINGTON,  December  6, 1673. 

SIR  :  In  compliance  with  your  directions,  transmitted  to  me  in  an  official  letter  of 
October  28, 1873,  I  have  the  honor  to  respectfully  inform  you  that  I  have  visited  the 
Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  Indian  agencies  in  Dakota  Territory,  and  have  to  report  as 
follows : 

On  my  arrival  at  Cheyenne,  Wyoming,  I  went  to  the  store-house  of  the  Indian 
Department  in  company  with  Mr.  W.  H.  Moore,  store-keeper,  and  examined  the  sup 
plies  there  awaiting  transportation  to  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  The  bacon  was  very 
good,  but  some  of  the  coffee  and  sugar  looked  inferior.  There  were  five  brands  of 
flour  delivered  under  the  contract  for  this  year,  as  follows  :  1st,  Astor,  Saint  Louis  ; 
2d,  Occidental  Mills,  Council  Bluffs  ;  3d,  Papillion  Mills,  Nebraska ;  4th,  State  Mills, 
Omaha ;  5th,  Anchor  Mills.  None  of  the  sacks  of  the  first  four  brands  were  marked, 
as  required  by  contract,  "  Indian  Department  Flour."  Some  of  the  flour  was  in 
single  sacks,  but  I  could  not  ascertain  how  much.  I  secured  samples  of  each  brand  of 
flour  selected  by  Mr.  Moore  and  myself,  and  respectfully  submit  them  herewith  ;  also 
Mr.  Moore's  affidavit  as  to  the  samples  selected  and  his  estimate  of  the  quantity  of 
flour  in  single  sacks,  &c.  The  flour  appeared  to  be  very  inferior,  and  is  said  to  be  de 
livered  by  Mr.  J.  T.  Baldwin  for  G.  M.  Dodge. 

HIGH  PRICES  PAID  FOR   CORN. 

Some  of  the  corn  substituted  for  flour  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  as  per  letter  of  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  September  16, 1873,  was  in  the  store,  and  looked  like 
good  grain,  although  I  saw  some  of  the  same  delivery  at  the  agency  very  dirty  and 
inferior.  The  price  paid  for  it,  as  stated  in  the  letter  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs,  is  $2.26f  per  100  pounds.  This  price  is  far  above  the  market  rates.  Corn  is 
being  delivered  in  gunnies,  in  Cheyenne,  at  $1.70  per  100  pounds,  in  small  quantities. 
A  large  quantity  can  be  obtained  in  burlap  sacks,  such  as  Mr.  Dodge,  the  corn  contrac 
tor,  delivered  in,  for  $1.50  per  100  pounds.  Clark,  Parsons  &  Co.,  of  Omaha,  one  of 
the  most  reliable  firms  in  that  city,  offered  to  furnish  400,000  pounds  at  Cheyenne  at 
that  rate.  So  also  did  Mr.  Coilett,  a  grain-dealer  in  Cheyenne. 

1  ascertained  while  in  Cheyenne  that  the  distance  to  the  old  Red  Cloud  agency  by 
the  road  usually  traveled  by  heavy  trains  is  about  ninety  miles,  while  D.  J.  McCaun 
charged  the  Government  for  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  miles;  and  that  the  distance 
from  Cheyenne  to  the  new  Red  Cloud  agency  is  variously  estimated  at  one  hundred 
and  eighty-six  and  one  hundred  and  eighty-eight  miles,  as  per  affidavits  of  John 
Comptou,  train-master  of  D.  J.  McCanu,  signed  also  by  G.  W.  Perkins,  subcontractor, 
and  of  Charles  Hecht,  subcontractor,  while  D.  J.  McCann  charged  for  two  hundred 
and  twelve  miles.  I  also  submit  a  copy  of  the  contract  between  D.  J.  McCann  and 
Charles  Hecht,  which  shows  that  Mr.  McCann  only  paid  $1  per  100  pounds  for  the 
whole  distance  to  the  old  agency,  and  that  the  transportation  is  now  furnished  for 
$1.20  per  100  pounds  per  one  hundred  miles  to  the  new  agency  from  the  old. 

AFFAIRS  AT  NEW  RED   CLOUD  AGENCY. 

I  arrived  at  new  Red  Cloud  agency  November  9.  The  affairs  of  this  agency  are  con 
ducted  very  loosely.  I  Avas  informed  by  the  clerk  who  receives  the  stores  that  noth 
ing  is  weighed  on  receipt  from  the  freight-contractor,  who  gets  receipts  for  all  his  bills 
of  lading,  and  that  the  agent,  Dr.  Saville,  said  he  need  not  weigh.  To  any  one  at  all 
acquainted  with  the  character  of  the  class  of  men  engaged  in  freighting  on  the  remote 
frontier,  it  is  obvious  that  the  Government  loses  largely  by  this  practice,  and  it  is  in 
conceivable  how  any  person  possessed  of  the  least  desire  to  care  for  the  interests  of 
the  Government  and  the  Indians  could  tolerate  such  a  practice.  Neither  is  there  any 
record  of  the  amount  of  beef  received  at  the  agency,  other  than  copies  of  the  receipts 
issued  to  the  contractor,  which  Mr.  Bosler,  who  is  really  the  beef-contractor,  informed 
me  he  made  out  himself.  The  beeves  had  been  received  by  an  average  weight,  ascer 
tained  by  weighing,  as  is  alleged,  some  of  the  largest  cattle,  until  November  7,  when 
the  cattle-scale  was  put  up,  with  a  cattle-corral,  for  weighing. 

In  examining  the  papers  of  the  agency  up  to  the  date  of  my  arrival  I  found  no 
statement  of  the  beef  account  with  the  contractor,  and  on  asking  Mr.  Appleton,  the 
acting  agent,  for  an  estimate  of  the  amount  for  which  receipts  were  due  the  contractor 
to  that  date,  he  informed  me  that  he  could  not  tell  until  he  sent  to  Mr.  George  M. 
Bosler,  at  his  camp,  some  thirty-five  miles  distant,  and  I  was  compelled  to  accept  his 
promise  to  obtain  the  figures  for  me  on  my  return  from  Whetstone  agency.  But  even 
then  Mr.  Bosler  did  not  bring  his  account,  and  I  waited  two  days  longer  than  was  oth- 
51  I  F 


802 

er\vise  necessary  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  while  Mr.  Bosler  went  to  bis  camp  ostensibly  ta 
examine  bis  accounts  and  tbe  orders  of  tbe  agent  in  bis  possession,  and  to  let  me  know 
the  result.  He  again  returned  to  tbe  agency  the  day  before  I  left,  and  said  the  Gov 
ernment  owed  him  for  seven  hundred  and  ninety-eight  beeves,  or  maybe  more,  but  he 
was  not  sure,  as  he  said  one  of  bis  herders  had  two  of  the  orders  which  he  had  not  seen. 
Tbus  tbe  account  of  beef  received  at  tbe  agency  was  kept  by  Mr.  Bosler.  Tbe  issues 
of  supplies  are  made  to  chiefs  of  bauds  for  tbeir  bands,  or  to  some  chief  or  head-inan 
designated  by  the  band. 

Flour,  coffee,  sugar,  &c.,  are  issued  in  quantities  according  to  the  amount  on  band, 
and  no  record  is  kept  of  the  amount  issued,  the  returns  being  made  out  to  balance 
with  the  amount  on  hand.  Tbe  Indians  are  by  this  plan  charged  with  the  amounts 
stolen  by  freight-contractors  and  otbers,  and  fed  to  employds,  all  of  whom  are  fed  from 
Indian  supplies.  The  beef  is  issued  by  beeves  on  tbe  1st,  8th,  15th.  and  23d  of  each 
month— so  many  beeves  being  allowed  to  each  band.  For  instance,  Little  Wound's 
band,  said  to  number  two  hundred  lodges,  receives  forty  beeves  for  seven  days'  rations. 
When  the  average  of  tbe  beef  is  greatly  overestimated,  the  Indians  are  charged  with 
and  cheated  out  of  the  amount  of  the  overestimate.  If  this  baud  received  tbeir  cattle 
at  the  actual  value,  they  would  only  be  entitled  to  forty  beeves,  each  weighing  seven 
hundred  and  thirty-five  pounds,  and  all  over  that  weight  is  an  unjustifiable  issue, 
which  is  covered  by  misrepresenting  the  actual  number  of  lodges  in  accounting  to  the 
Department.  Little  Wound's  band  received  one  beef  to  five  loilges,  by  a  special  ar 
rangement  of  Dr.  Saville,  who  promised  to  allow  them  that  number  if  they  permitted 
him  to  count  their  lodges.  Little  Wolf's  band  received  a  like  proportion.  On  the 
other  baud,  Red  Cloud's  and  other  bands  received  less  than  this  ration.  I  endeavored 
to  get  a  statement  of  the  number  of  beeves  issued  since  Dr.  Saville  took  cbarge,  but 
found  that  no  regular  record  of  the  number  of  beeves  issued  was  kept,  beyond  the 
rough  issue-lists  of  the  commissary  clerk;  and  those  of  the  third  quarter  having  been 
destroyed,  after  the  return  of  provisions  for  that  quarter  was  rendered,  I  had  to  limit 
inquiries  into  the  beef  transactions  to  the  months  of  October  and  November. 

INDIANS  CHEATED  OUT  OF  WHOLE  ISSUES. 

The  papers  of  the  agency  show  that  on  the  1st  of  October  tbere  were  011  hand 
14,948  pounds  of  beef,  and  that  during  the  month  there  were  received,  as  per  receipts 
of  J.  J.  Saville,  on  tbe  1st  day  of  October,  647  head,  averaging  1,063  pounds  eacb,  and 
on  the  15th  day  of  October,  633  head,  averaging  1,043  pounds  eacb,  making  a  total  of 
1,362,928  pounds. 

From  a  statement  of  Mr.  B.  F.  Walters,  it  is  seen  that  1,163  head  were  charged  as 
issued  to  Indians  during  the  mouth.  The  chief  berder  stated  to  me  that  be  had  on  the 
1st  day  of  October  60  bead  of  beeves,  which,  added  to  tbe  1,280  beeves  for  wbich  re 
ceipts  were  given,  would  amount  to  1,340  beeves,  of  wbich  1,163  were  issued,  leaving 
177  head  which  should  bave  been  on  baud  October  31,  less  52  head  said  by  Mr.  Apple- 
ton  to  bave  been  lost  by  stampede,  and  10  head  said  to  have  been  given  by  Dr.  Saville 
to  Nic  Jainis  on  account  of  rations  for  his  half-breed  children,  living  eighty-eight 
miles  from  the  agency.  It  will  be  been  hereafter  that  there  was  not  a  pound  of  beef 
on  hand  at  this  date. 

FALSE  AND  FRAUDULENT  RECEIPTS  FOR  BEEF. 

The  receipts  of  Dr.  Saville  were,  however,  false  and  fraudulent.  He  did  not  receive 
647  bead  on  the  1st  of  October,  nor  633  head  on  the  15th  of  October.  On  tbe  1st  day 
of  October  no  issue  was  made  at  the  agency,  because  the  herd  of  tbe  contractor  stam 
peded  tbe  night  before  delivery,  and  J.  Bissinette,  interpreter,  swears  tbat  two  issues 
were  omitted  in  October,  one  on  tbe  1st  and  one  on  tbe  15th.  This  testimony  appears 
to  be  corroborated  by  a  draught  of  an  affidavit  prepared  by  Mr.  A.  R.  Appleton  for  tbe 
signature  and  attestation  of  the  chief  herder,  in  which  be  says  tbat  a  herd  of  about 
600  beeves  stampeded  on  the  8th  of  October,  wbich  could  not  bave  been  the  case,  as 
to  the  number  stampeded,  had  the  herd  been  received  on  the  1st,  and  an  issue  made 
of  282  head,  as  alleged. 

On  the  8th  of  October,  297  head  were  issued,  a  number,  wlifch  I  could  not  ascertain, 
having  been  received  on  the  day  before,  and  after  issue  the  herd  stampeded,  and  Dr. 
Saville  then  decided  not  to  keep  an  agency  herd,  and  directed  the  chief  herder  to  turn 
over  to  Mr.  Bosler's  herd  all  the  cattle  recovered,  which  he  did,  to  the  number  of  217. 
Of  this  number  Mr.  Bosler  only  acknowledged  the  receipt  of  177  bead. 

Tbus,  after  tbe  8th  day  of  October  tbere  were  no  cattle  left  at  tbe  Red  Cloud  agency, 
and  no  herd  was  received  except  185  head,  issued  on  the  18th,  (or  more  probably  on 
tbe  21st,)  and  subsequently  399  head,  said  to  have  been  issued  on  the  23d,  (or  more 
probably  on  the  25th.)  The  latter  issue  was  made  on  tbe  solicitation  of  Mr.  Appleton 
by  Dr.  Saville,  before  tbe  departure  of  tbe  latter  for  Washington,  for  tbe  1st  of  No 
vember,  no  issue  being  made  from  October  25  until  November  8. 

On  tbe  8th  day  of  November  390  beeves,  said  to  average  993  pounds  each,  were  re 
ceived  and  issued  ;  and  011  the  18th  of  November  410  beeves,  averaging  967  pounds, 


803 

were  received  and  issued.  I  was  present,  and  assisted  in  the  weighing  of  the  herd 
received  November  18,  and  it  was  said  by  the  whites  and  Indians  to  have  been  the 
finest  herd  received  during  the  year. 

RECEIPTS  GIVEN  FOR  CATTLE  NOT  RECEIVED. 

On  the  21st  of  November  Mr.  George  M.  Bosler  informed  me  that  the  Government 
owed  him  receipts  for  798  head  of  cattle  received  during  November.  Dr.  Saville, 
therefore,  gave  a  receipt  on  the  1st  of  October  for  647  head  of  cattle,  and  certified  that 
he  weighed  twenty  head,  and  that  their  average  weight  was  1,063  pounds,  and  for  633 
head  on  the  15th,  averaging  1,043  pounds  each,  when,  in  fact,  no  such  number  of 
beeves  was  received,  and  receipts  were  given  for  cattle  which  the  agent  never  saw. 
There  is  no  record  to  show  that  any  of  the  lot  received  October  18  (or  21)  were  weighed 
at  all.  It  will  be  seen,  then,  that  the  Government  is  charged  with  receiving  1,280 


for  for  that  mouth,  as  Mr.  Bosler  claims  receipts  for  798  head  for  November. 

I  think  it  clear  that  fraud  was  intended.  Mr.  J.  H.  Bosler  told  me  in  Cheyenne  that 
he  made  out  the  receipts  for  the  agent's  signature,  and  as  those  receipts  purported  to 
represent  deliveries  of  cattle  on  dates  on  which  both  he  and  the  agent,  Dr.  Saville, 
knew  that  no  such  deliveries  were  made,  and  that  weights  were  certified  to,  especially 
on  the  receipt  of  October  15,  when  no  cattle  were  weighed,  there  was  clearly  collusion 
between  Dr.  Saville  and  Mr.  J.  H.  Bosler  to  obtain  payment  from  the  Government  for 
beef  not  delivered,  either  as  to  number  or  weight  of  beeves.  In  confirmation  of  this, 
I  invite  attention  to  the  affidavits  of  J.  Bissiuette,  who  swears  that  Dr.  Saville  told 
him  that  the  cattle,  about  the  beginning  of  October,  averaged  about  1,000  pounds,  not 
1,063,  as  certified  to.  The  affidavit  of  Thomas  W.  Reed,  subagent,  shows  that  the 
cattle  actually  received  from  Mr.  Bosler  were  not  of  the  weights  represented  by  the 
certificates,  as  does  also  that  of  J.  Bissinette,  interpreter,  who  swears  that  he  called 
the  attention  of  Dr.  Saville  to  the  fact  that  only  large  cattle  were  brought  up  to  be 
weighed.  I  was  also  informed  by  a  herder  at  the  agency,  who  had  been  raised  among 
cattle,  and  was  a  herder  on  the  Kansas  cattle-trail,  that  920  pounds  would  be  a  good 
average  for  all  the  cattle  received  since  August  1  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  Mr.  Ap- 
pleton  weighed  the  lot  of  390  cattle  received  November  8,  and  allowed  an  average  of 
993  pounds,  although  the  actual  weight  was  958  pounds  each,  he  having  allowed  the 
contractor,  Mr.  Bosler,  35  pounds  per  head  for  overdriving.  The  following  is  a  state 
ment  of  the  number  of  lodges  of  Indians  said  to  be  at  Red  Cloud  agency  since  October 
1,1873: 


Lodges.  Indians. 

November    1 2,351  16,457 

November    8 2,419  16,933 

November  18 2,  386  16,  702 


Lodges.  Indians. 

October    1 2,131  14,917 

October    8 2,158  15,106 

October  15 ,...2,213  15,491 

October  23 2,273  15,911 

From  the  best  information  to  be  had  on  the  subject,  1  am  satisfied  that  there  are  no 
more  than  1,100  lodges,  or  7,700  Indians,  at  the  agency.  It  is  claimed  that  the  agent 
cannot  obtain  an  accurate  estimate  of  the  number  of  lodges,  because  the  Indians  are 
averse  to  being  counted,  and  will  not  allow  a  census  to  be  taken,  and  that  he  cannot 
lessen  the  issue  of  beef  without  risk  to  his  life  and  the  lives  of  the  agency  employe's. 
On  these  points  I  would  respecfully  refer  to  the  affidavits  of  J.  Bissiuette  and  Y.  W. 
Reed  herewith. 

UNAUTHORIZED  EXPENDITURES  BY  AGENTS. 

I  respectfully  invite  attention  to  the  variableness  of  the  issues  in  October,  as  to  the 
number  of  beeves  issued  and  the  dates  of  issue.  If  the  Indians  were  so  violent,  as 
represented,  the  agent  would  have  been  afraid  to  deprive  them  of  two  issues  in  one 
month.  There  is  no  authority  for  receiving  or  issuing  so  much  beef,  if  I  may  except 
a  statement  made  by  J.  H.  Bosler,  that  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  had  told 
Mr.  Wilder  "  to  go  ahead  and  furnish  what  beef  was  wanted."  By  the  terms  of  the 
advertisement  for  supplies  for  the  Indian  service  for  the  fiscal  year  1873-'74,  "  the  right 
to  increase  or  diminish  the  quantity  of  each  or  any  of  the  articles"  is  reserved  by  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  as  I  could  find  no  authority  from  him  authorizing 
the  agent  at  Red  Cloud  agency  to  receive  more  than  416,666f  per  month,  I  infer  that 
the  agent's  action  in  receiving  more  than  that  quantity  has  been  illegal  and  not  bind 
ing  upon  the  Government,  especially  as  this  advertisement  forms  part  of  the  terms  of 
the  contract  with  Mr.  Wilder,  and  must  be  well  known  to  him  and  the  agent.  Dr. 
Saville  purchased  ten  horses  after  his  arrival  at  the  agency,  which  he  certifies  were 
absolutely  necessary  for  herding  purposes.  I  found  four  of  them  used  for  an  ambu 
lance  team.  He  paid  $700  for  the  ten.  They  were  of  the  kind  known  as  "  Broncos," 
which  are  usually  purchased  for  $50  apiece  when  sound  and  serviceable.  Of  the  ten 


804 

purchased,  only  two  might  have  been  worth  $70  each.    All  the  others  could  be  bought 
at  any  time  for  from  $40  to  $45  each.     None  of  the  ten  were  fit  for  herding. 

On  the  report  of  employe's  for  the  third  quarter  of  1873,  Frank  D.  Appleton,  son  of 
A.  R.  Appleton,  superintendent  of  buildings  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  and,  I  believe,  a 
brother-in-law  of  Dr.  Saville,  appeared  on  the  roll  as  clerk  from  August  19, 1873,  at 
$125  per  month.  He  only  came  to  the  agency  November  9, 1873,  arid  I  was  informed 
that  A.  R.  Appleton,  his  father,  received  the  check  drawn  for  his  services  to  September 
31,  1873,  and  signed  his  (Frank  D.  Appleton's)  name  to  the  proper  voucher  therefor. 
During  my  stay  at  the  agency  a  number  of  blankets  of  the  annuity  goods  of  1873-'74 
were  shown  to  me.  They  are  undoubtedly  inferior  to  the  samples  upon  which  the  con 
tracts  were  made;  also  some  knives,  of  which  the  Indians  complained  very  much.  I 
brought  samples  of  the  white,  dark-blue,  and  scarlet  2^-poiut  blankets  to  Washington 
with  me,  and  have  turned  them,  over  to  the  secretary  of  the  board ;  also  one  of  the 
knives. 

UNJUSTIFIABLE   TRANSACTIONS. 

I  respectfully  call  your  attention  to  the  turning  over  of  beeves  by  Dr.  Saville  to 
Mr.  Hosier's  herd,  after  giving  receipts  for  them,  at  an  average  of  1,063  pounds  each, 
and  the  subsequent  receipt  of  the  Ibth,  without  weighing;  also  to  the  receipt  of  the 
15th,  given  without  at  that  time  receiving  cattle;  also  to  the  affidavit  of  Subagent 
Reed,  which  shows  at  least  one  instance  in  which  beef  justly  due  was  kept  back  from 
the  Indians  while  there  wras  enough  to  their  credit ;  to  the  allowance  of  35  pounds 

Ser  head  extra  on  the  herd  received  November  8  ;  to  the  delivery  of  ten  beeves  to  Nick 
anis  for  his  half-breed  family  ;  to  the  gift  of  two  bolls  of  Indian  cloth  to  Joseph  Bis- 
sinette,  as  per  his  affidavit ;  and  to  the  fact  of  Dr.  Saville  having  had  liquor  on  the  In 
dian  reservation,  as  sworn  to  by  Mr.  Ecoffee.  There  can  be  no  justification  for  any 
one  of  the  transactions  referred  to.  I  also  respectfully  invite  attention  to  the  accom 
panying  statement  of  Mr.  H.  W.  Moore.  Todd  Randall,  the  man  referred  to,  now  an 
Indian  trader  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  was  recently  at  Whetstone  agency,  and  does  not 
bear  a  good  character.  I  was  informed  that  Mr.  A.  R.  Appleton  purchased  the  goods 
for  Randall's  trader's  store  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  was  also  informed  that  Mr.  A. 
R.  Appleton  was  discounting  the  checks  of  the  agent  paid  to  employe's  for  services  at 
the  rate  of  5  per  cent. 

THE  WHETSTONE  AGENCY. 

I  left  Red  Cloud  agency  on  the  morning  of  November  12,  and  arrived  at  Whetstone 
agency  the  same  evening,  after  a  drive  of  about  forty  miles.  I  was  able  to  get  but 
very  little  information  at  this  agency  as  to  the  manner  of  doing  business,  the  clerk, 
who  wras  acting  agent  in  the  absence  of  Agent  Howard,  being  unacquainted  with  the 
routine  duties. 

I  examined  the  supplies  delivered  under  the  contract  for  1873-'74,  and  found  that  the 
flour  was  a  better  article  than  that  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency.  There  were  only 
three  brands,  as  follows :  1.  St.  James  Mills,  Neb. ;  2.  Exchange  Mills,  Sioux  City ; 
3.  City  Mills,  Sioux  City  ;  all  of  which  appeared  to  be  nearly,  if  not  quite,  as  good  as 
the  samples  of  flour  contracted  for  received  from  the  Indian  Office.  Samples  are 
respectfully  submitted  herewith. 

A  SPECIMEN  OF   POOR  FLOUR. 

I  also  examined  the  old  flour  which  had  been  delivered  by  G.  M.  Dodge  under  the 
contract  of  1872-73,  and  respectfully  transmit  herewith  a  sample  selected  in  the  pres 
ence  of  the  agent's  clerk,  Mr.  Willard  D.  Bray,  and  S.  F.  Estes,  who  pronounced  it  to  bo 
a  fair  specimen  of  the  wThole  delivery.  It  is  a  nondescript  article,  neither  flour  nor 
meal,  and  totally  unlit  for  issue  as  flour.  In  receiving  the  supplies  at  this  agency  parts 
only  are  weighed.  The  clerk  informed  me  that  he  thought  nearly  all  the  bacon  was 
weighed,  and  sometimes  the  sugar  and  coffee.  The  flour  and  corn  were  not  weighed. 
Several  sacks  of  corn  were  taken  and  weigbed^and  their  average  allowed  for  the  train- 
load  from  which  they  were  taken.  The  issues  were  calculated  by  the  number  of  lodges 
naid  to  be  present,  not  by  the  amounts  actually  issued,  of  which  no  record  is  kept. 
Tickets  are  issued  to  chiefs,  headmen,  or  other  persons  representing  bands  or  lodges, 
for  the  amounts  which  they  are  to  receive.  These  tickets  are  orders  on  the  issue-clerk 
from  the  agent's  office  for  supplies  for  a  stated  number  of  lodges,  which,  as  the  clerk 
told  me,  never  equal  the  number  claimed  by  the  Indians,  as  they  usually  overstated 
their  numbers.  I  observed,  however,  that  credit  was  taken  on  the  returns  for  the  full 
number  claimed  by  the  Indians,  and,  as  an  instance  of  this  mode  of  dealing,  I  submit 
the  following  as  coming  under  my  own  observation : 

INDIANS   CHEATED   IN  THEIR  SUPPLIES. 

A  party  of  Minneconjous  and  Uncpapas,  numbering  28  lodges,  came  to  the  agency 
while  I  was  there  and  got  rations  for  seven  or  eight  days.  The  clerk  issued  some  sup 
plies,  and  when  they  insisted  on  having  beef  too,  he  gave  them  an  order  for  one  beef. 


805 

This  was  to  supply  3,969  pounds  of  beef,  and  there  was  not  one  animal  in  the  herd  of 
beeves  then  at  the  agency  which  would  weigh  1,000  pounds.  If  they  happened  to  get 
one  of  the  smallest  ones  which  I  saw  there,  they  could  not  have  had  more  than  260 
pounds,  net  weight,  of  beef. 

The  beef  here,  as  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  is  issued  by  beeves,  with  the  same  general 
results  in  case  of  overestimated  averages.  The  return  of  provisions  for  the  third  quar 
ter  of  1873  showed  that  the  agent  had  on  hand,  September  30, 1873,  955,039  pounds  of 
beef,  calculated  at  950  beeves,  and  the  receipt  of  the  agent  was  given  in  October  for 
1,056  head,  making  a  total  of  2,006. 

Of  this  number,  there  was  said  to  have  been  issued  as  follows:  October  1,  233  head 
to  730  lodges ;  October  10, 269  head  to  1,085  lodges  ;  October  20,  307  head  to  1,146  lodges  ; 
during  the  month,  about  70  head  to  100  of  whites  ;  making  a  total  of  879  head  issued  in 
October.  There  was  issued  November  1,  315  head  to  1,197  lodges ;  November  10,  373 
head  to  1,553  lodges  ;  November  10,47  head  to  100  of  whites  ;  making  in  all  735  head 
issued  in  November.  During  the  quarter  there  was  said  to  have  been  six  head  stolen 
by  Indians  and  one  head  lost  by  disease,  leaving  a  total  of  385  head  to  be  accounted 
for  at  the  date  of  my  visit.  Of  that  number,  the  chief  herder  and  clerk  (acting  agent) 
reported  to  me,  when  I  visited  the  herd,  some  ten  miles  distant  from  the  agency,  that 
there  were  130  head  on  hand.  I  subsequently  learned  that  38  of  the  cattle  shown  to 
me  as  beeves  were  work-cattle,  belonging  to  the  agency  and  freighters  in  the  neighbor 
hood.  There  were,  therefore,  only  92  head  of  beeves  at  the  agency,  leaving  293  head 
unaccounted  for.  Subsequently  the  acting  agent  said  that  the  round  return  of  pro 
visions  for  the  third  quarter  of  1873,  which  he  showed  me,  was  not  correct,  and  that  he 
had  not  deducted  from  it  55  head  said  to  have  been  taken  by  Indians.  If  this  state 
ment  is  correct,  there  yet  remains  232  head  to  be  accounted  for,  and  the  only  inference 
is  that  receipts  were  given  for  a  larger  number  of  beeves  than  were  actually  received  , 
unless  the  chief  herder  failed  to  give  an  accurate  statement  of  his  losses. 

HOW  THE  BEEF-CONTRACTOR  MAKES  MONEY. 

Having  no  means  of  weighing  in  gross  provided  as  yet,  the  average  of  cattle  at  this 
agency  was  ascertained  by  weighing  a  few  head  selected  by  the  chief  herder  and 
weighed  by  the  butcher,  who,  I  was  informed,  at  one  time  weighed  the  end-gate  of  a 
wagon  with  each  of  the  four  quarters  of  a  beef,  and  counted  the  whole  as  the  net 
weight  of  the  animal ;  and  at  another  time  cut  the  beef  in  two  parts,  leaving  all  the 
neck,  backbone,  &c.,  on  one  side,  which  he  weighed  and  multiplied  by  two,  to  represent 
the  not  weight  of  the  animal.  This  man  and  the  chief  herder  are  relied  on  by  the 
agent,  who  never  attends  to  the  weights  personally,  to  give  the  average  weights  for 
which  the  Government  pays,  and  with  which  the  Indians  are  charged. 

I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying  that  the  average  of  the  October  lot  must  have  been 
largely  overestimated;  for,  of  the  92  head  on  hand,  there  was  not  one  which  would 
weigh  1,000  pounds;  while,  on  the  other  hand,  there  were  two  very  small  animals, 
between  2  and  3  years  old,  in  the  herd,  not  weighing  600  pounds  each,  and  a  large  pro 
portion  of  the  balance  would  not  weigh  over  POO  pounds  each.  It  was  said  by  the 
chief  herder  that  this  was  the  last  lot  of  the  herds  of  September  and  October,  and  did 
not  represent  fairly  the  size  of  the  cattle  in  those  herds.  But  if  this  were  true,  they, 
having  been  so  long  on  hand,  should  have  been  in  good  condition,  which  they  were 
not.  I  am  convinced,  after  weighing  the  splendid  lot  of  cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud 
agency  November  17,  and  which  averaged  only  967  pounds,  that  no  common  herd  of 
Texan  cattle,  which  had  in  it  any  number  of  such  animals  as  1  saw  in  this  herd,  could 
weigh  more  than  900  pounds  average.  It  appeared  to  me  that  the  introduction  of  the 
work-cattle  in  the  herd  was  an  attempt  to  cover  up  an  overaverage.  When  I  spoke 
to  the  acting  agent  on  the  subject,  he  said  it  was  not  done  by  his  orders. 

INSUFFICIENT  ISSUES  OF  BEEF. 

I  also  examined  a  lot  of  150  hides  which  were  spread  out  to  dry  by  the  trader,  and 
found  the  greater  part  to  be  small  hides,  such  as  might  be  taken  from  cattle  weighing 
from  750  to  800  pounds.  It  became  evident  to  me  that  the  92  head  on  hand  were  in 
tended  for  the  issue  of  November  20.  It  was  my  intention  to  be  present  at  the  receipt 
and  weighing  of  one  lot  of  the  cattle  received  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agen 
cies,  and  I  endeavored  to  make  arrangements  to  that  end.  Mr.  Willard,  the  clerk  in 
charge  at  Whetstone,  informed  me  that  he  expected  a  herd  by  the  20th  or  2lst,  and  I 
left  Whetstone  on  the  17th  to  be  present  at  the  receipt  and  issue  at  Red  Cloud  agency 
on  the  18th,  intending  to  return  on  the  19th,  and  be  present  at  the  receipt  and  issue  of 
cattle,  October  20,  at  Whetstone,  but  Mr.  George  M.  Bosler  told  me  at  Red  Cloud  agency 
that  Mr.  Willard  had  said  that  when  he  wanted  beef  he  would  send  word  to  his  camp, 
and  that  he  had  at  that  date,  November  18,  received  no  notice  from  Mr.  Willard,  and 
that  he  understood,  when  visiting  the  agency  the  day  before  my  arrival,  that  enough 
beef  was  on  hand  for  an  issue.  This  lot  of  92  was  then  clearly  intended  for  the  issue 
of  November  20,  no  provision  having  been  made  for  an  additional  supply.  I  respect 
fully  invite  attention  to  the  issues  of  October  1  and  10.  According  to  the  number  of 


806 

•cattle  issued  October  1  to  730  lodges,  the  1,085  lodges,  issued  to  October  10,  would  be 
entitled  to  345  beeves,  while  they  received  only  '269.  I  also  invite  attention  to  a  sim 
ilar  disparity  in  the  issues  of  November  1  and  15.  The  issues  charged  to  the  Govern 
ment  are  undoubtedly  excessive,  as  are  also  the  receipts,  for  which,  under  the  terms  of 
the  advertisement  for  supplies  for  1873  and  1874,  the  Government  cannot  be  held  re 
sponsible. 

ISSUES   CHARGED   TO   INDIANS  NOT   PRESENT. 

The  number  of  Indians  to  which  issues  are  charged  is  far  in  excess  of  the  number 
actually  present.  The  clerk  at  the  agency  told  me  that  he  calculates  the  number 
present  to  be  about  as  many  more  as  properly  belonged  to  the  agency.  Messrs.  Kem- 
ble  and  Alvord  ascertained  that  from  2,300  to  2,500  Indians  properly  belong  to  the 
Whetstone  agency,  and  5,000  persons  would,  therefore,  be  a  fair  estimate  of  the  num 
ber  of  Indians  fed.  Or,  estimated  by  lodges,  there  should  be  no  more  than  720  lodges 
to  be  issued  to  ;  and  this  I  believe  to  be  a  liberal  estimate  of  the  number  fed  up  to  the 
present.  Just  before  I  left  I  heard  that  a  large  number  of  Mmneconjoux  were  expected 
to  arrive — perhaps  200  lodges.  This  would  increase  the  number  at  the  agency  to  900 
lodges,  more  or  less,  and  I  am  satisfied  that  that  is  the  highest  number  of  lodges  that 
received  rations  at  Whetstone  agency  this  year. 

The  corn  delivered  at  this  agency  was  complained  of  by  Spotted  Tail  as  being  very 
old  and  dry.  It  is  to  be  delivered  as  per  the  letter  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian 
Affairs  of  September  16,  for  $3.60  per  100  pounds.  This  cannot  be  done  without  loss  to 
the  contractor.  He  can  furnish  corn,  delivered  at  the  agency,  for  $4.62  per  100  pounds, 
at  a  fair  profit,  but  not  for  less.  On  examining  the  agency  records,  I  found  that  C. 
Perris,  jr.,  member  of  the  trading  firm  of  Pratt  &  Ferris,  at  Fort  Randall,  was  on  the 
roll  of  employe's  as  subageut,  at  $100  per  month.  The  senior  member  of  the  firm  of 
Pratt  &  Ferris,  J.  H.  Pratt,  is  the  trader  at  Whetstone  agency.  I  respectfully  invite 
your  special  attention  to  this  arrangement,  which  appears  to  me  to  be  entirely  in  con 
flict  with  the  best  interests  of  the  Government.  I  found  a  voucher  in  favor  of  J.  H. 
Pratt  for  38,400  pounds  of  oats,  at  7  cents  per  pound,  delivered  at  the  agency.  This 
is  a  very  high  price.  Oats  were  delivered  to  a  private  individual  at  Whetstone  agency, 
on  a  small  retail  purchase,  at  5.20  cents  per  pound.  There  was  also  a  voucher  for 
43,400  pounds  of  seed-oats,  at  7-£  cents  per  pound.  This  is  also  proportionately  high. 

UNNECESSARY  EXPENDITURES   FOR  LABOR. 

I  observed  that  one  chief  herder  and  seven  herders  were  employed  at  this  agency, 
•while  Red  Cloud  agency  only  needed  one  chief  herder  and  four  herders.  Tae  latter 
number  is  amply  sufficient  for  all  the  needs  of  either  agency.  The  number  of  laborers 
also  appears  to  be  excessive.  There  are  eleven  who  receive  $50  per  month,  while  the 
laborers  at  Red  Cloud  agency  receive  only  $40  per  month,  with  the  exception  of  four, 
who  are  skilled  laborers.  I  think  seven  would  be  sufficient.  There  does  not  appear 
to  be  a  necessity  for  more  than  one  person  to  butcher.  C.  Bernard's  services  might  be 
•dispensed  with.  The  herd  farmer,  Raymond,  is  a  freighter,  and  attends  particularly 
to  that  branch  of  the  business.  There  were  three  Texan  horses  on  the  papers  of  the 
agency,  of  which  I  could  learn  nothing  of  the  acting  agent. 

There  were  no  papers  left  at  the  agency  by  late  Agent  Risley  from  which  I  could 
form  any  estimate  of  the  transaction  of  business  during  his  incumbency.  From  the 
best  information  I  could  get,  he  had  not  been  at  the  agency  in  all  more  than  thirty- 
seven  days.  The  beef  received  under  the  contract  of  1872-73  was  vej?y  much  overaver- 
aged,  and  was  not  of  the  kind  contracted  for,  a  large  portion  being  two  and  three 
year  olds,  wrhich  could  not  have  weighed  more  than  600  to  700  pounds  each.  The  tes 
timony  on  this  point  at  the  agency  is  almost  unanimous. 

I  endeavored  to  obtain  an  accurate  list  of  the  persons  who  freighted  under  the  con 
tract  to  remove  the  public  property  at  the  old  Whetstone  agency  to  the  present  loca 
tion ;  but,  owing  to  the  absence  of  most  of  the  freighters,  was  unable  to  get  the  per 
sonal  testimony  of  each  as  to  the  amount  he  carried.  I  ascertained,  however,  that 
Dr.  Graves  took  no  part  in  the  removal,  either  personally  or  by  deputy  ;  all  the  goods, 
supplies,  &c.,  were  delivered  and  received  by  Government  employes,  and  all  accounts 
of  weights,  &c.,  were  turned  into  the  agent's  office,  from  which  due-bills  were  issued 
to  the  freighters  for  the  amounts  due  them  at  $1  per  100  pounds  for  the  whole  distance. 
I  traveled  over  the  roads  which  led  from  the  old  to  the  new  Whetstone  agency,  and 
believe  the  distance  does  not  exceed  thirty-three  miles. 

I  returned  to  Washington  on  the  1st  instant,  and  reported  for  duty  at  the  office  of 
the  board. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

SAMUEL  WALKER, 

Clerk  of  the  Board. 

Hon.  FELIX  R.  BRUNOT, 

Chairman  Hoard  of  Indian  Commissioners. 


807 

F. 
THE  BISHOP  HARE  REPORT. 

ADMINISTRATION   OF   RED   CLOUD   AND   WHETSTONE   AGENCIES. 

Special  report. 

To  the  Hon.  C.  DELANO, 

Secretary  of  the  Interior  : 

SIR  :  The  commission  appointed  to  investigate  into  the  administration  of  the  Red 
Clond  and  Whetstone  (Spotted  Tail)  agencies,  and  to  inquire  into  the  temper  and  con 
dition  of  the  Indians  connected  with  these  agencies,  and  to  make  such  recommendations 
as  upon  examination  should  seem  to  them  judicious  as  to  the  line  of  policy  to  be  pursued 
toward  them,  beg  leave  respectfully  to  report,  that  they  met  at  the  Red  Cloud  agency, 
Dakota,  March  16,  1874,  all  the  commissioners  being  present,  as  follows :  F.  H.  Smith, 
one  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  ;  J.  D.  Bevier,  United  States  Indian  inspect 
or;  Rev.  S.  D.  Hinman,  for  fifteen  years  missionary  among  the  Santee  Sioux;  and  W. 
H.  Hare,  missionary  bishop  to  the  Indians. 

On  motion,  it  was  resolved  that  the  commissioners  organize  and  conduct  their  pro 
ceedings  as  a  single  body.  Thereupon  William  H.  Hare  was  chosen  chairman  of  the 
commission,  and  F.  H.  Smith  secretary. 

CONDITION  OF  THE   INDIANS. 

Before  reporting  the  results  of  their  mission,  it  may  be  well  to  state  that  the  Indians 
properly  connected  with  the  Red  Cloud  and  the  Whetstone  agencies  are  the  Ogallallas 
and  the  Upper  Ernie's,  respectively.  They  are  among  the  most  distant  of  the  Sioux 
from  civilizing  influences,  and  the  last  who  have  accepted  a  position  of  dependence  upon 
the  Government,  and  their  agencies  are  the  resort  during  the  winter  of  multitudes  of 
northern  Indians,  (Minneconjous,  Sans  Arcs,  Uncpapas,  &c.,)  variously  estimated  at 
from  10,000  to  15,000  in  number,  who  range  over  districts  still  farther  removed  from 
civilization  and  the  power  of  the  Government,  and  who,  when  driven  in  from  their  rov 
ing  life  upon  the  plains  farther  north  by  the  rigors  of  the  winter,  come  to  the  Red 
Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  attracted  by  the  rations  which  the  Government  dis 
penses  there. 

The  wilder  spirits  among  the  Ogallallas  and  Upper  BruMs  find  in  these  sojourners 
congenial  company.  Combined,  they  constitute  a  turbulent  party,  which  for  the  time 
rules  the  agencies  with  a  high  hand.  The  better-disposed  Indians  have  not  yet  reached 
strength  enough,  either  in  number  or  character,  to  resist  these  impetuous  hordes  from 
the  north  and  their  abettors.  Those  who  sincerely  desire  to  learn  a  better  way  dare  not 
raise  their  heads  ;  and  those  who  favor  progress  in  quiet  times,  because  it  seems  the 
winning  side,  are  politic  enough  to  float  with  the  tide  when  its  tumultuous  waters  run 
the  other  way.  From  the  time  of  the  arrival  of  these  outside  bands,  white  men  living 
on  the  reservation  are  careful  not  to  expose  themselves  after  night-fall,  and  those  who 
for  mouths  have  been  accustomed  to  travel  through  the  country  alone,  without  fear  of 
molestation,  seek  an  escort  of  friendly  Indians.  The  agents  are  subjected  to  intimida 
tion  and  to  the  most  violent  and  unreasonable  demands,  while  now  and  then  small 
war-parties  dash  off  into  the  adjacent  country  in  the  hope  of  happening  upon  a  stray 
soldier  or  finding  an  opportunity  of  running  off  stock. 

This  turbulence  usually  continues  and  increases  until  it  reaches  its  climax  about  the 
time  when  the  severity  of  the  winter  is  relaxing,  and  the  visitors  from  the  north  are 
beginning  to  make  their  preparations  for  a  return  to  their  wild  northern  retreats. 

Your  commissioners  found  that  the  past  winter  had  been  no  exception  to  the  general 
rule.  Comparative  quiet  prevailed  at  both  agencies  during  all  last  summer  and  early 
fall,  but  upon  the  incoming  of  the  northern  Indians  trouble  at  once  began.  The  most 
extravagant  demands  were  made  for  rations,  and  enforced  by  intimidation.  The  efforts 
of  the  agents  to  make  a  census  of  the  people  (which  was  essential  to  the  proper  regu 
lation  of  the  issue  of  rations)  were  thwarted  and  defied.  When  registration  was,  not 
withstanding,  attempted,  the  agents  were  forcibly  restrained  and  their  lives  were 
threatened,  and  they  were  informed  that,  should  they  dare  pass  beyond  certain  limits 
which  were  marked  out  for  them,  they  would  do  it  at  their  peril. 

Early  in  February  a  war-party,  one  or  two  hundred  strong,  was  organized — perhaps 
there  were  several  of  them — and  started  on  a  marauding  expedition  for  the  settlement 
farther  south. 

Your  commissioners  have  no  exact  information  as  to  the  amount  of  stock  which  was 
run  off  by  these  parties;  but  within  ten  days  a  man  named  King,  a  hunter,  was  shot 
on  Laramie  Fork;  Edgar  Gray,  a  teamster,  was  killed  on  the  Running  Water ;  Lieu 
tenant  Robinson  and  Corporal  Coleman,  while  absent  from  their  train,  were  pursued  and 
killed  near  Laramie  Peak  ;  and  Frank  D.  Appletou,  clerk,  was  shot  dead  (as  is  supposed, 


808 

by  one  of  the  above-mentioned  war-party  on  its  return)  within  the  stockade  at  the  Red 
Cloud  agency. 

There  is  sufficient  evidence  to  satisfy  the  commission  that  the  better  spirits  discoun 
tenanced  these  lawless  proceedings ;  that  the  murder  of  Appleton  moved  one  of  the 
chiefs  to  tears ;  that  the  agents  were  able  to  form  a  number  of  the  Indians  into  a  guard 
to  protect  themselves  and  their  agencies;  that  one  Indian,  and  he  a  northern  man,  de 
manded  the  return  of  stolen  horses  from  a  war-party  of  which  his  nephew  was  a  leader, 
and,  when  it  was  refused,  shot  him  and  rescued  the  stolen  property  by  force;  and  that 
another  defended  his  agent  at  the  peril  of  his  own  life.  But,  notwithstanding,  turbu 
lence  seems  to  have  reigned  for  some  time  almost  supreme. 

IS   WAR    THE   NEEDED   REMEDY  ? 

Lamentable  as  has  been  the  condition  of  affairs,  your  commissioners  have  not  discovered 
any  proof  that  the  Indians  have  been  preparing  for  or  intending  to  provoke  a  war  wTith 
the  United  States.  While  it  cannot  be  affirmed  that  these  Indians  are  generally  friendly 
in  their  feelings  to  the  whites,  their  loyalty  to  the  Great  Father  is  evidently  both 
general  and  deep-seated.  It  is,  moreover,  plain  that  there  have  been  no  common  coun 
cils  against  the  whites,  and  that  there  has  been  no  concentrated  action.  Couiirniatory 
of  this  opinion  is  the  fact,  that  when  the  troops  appeared  at  the  agencies  the  great  body 
of  Indians  who  belonged  there  remained,  leaving  their  visitors  to  go  their  way.  The 
exhibitions  of  violence  in  which  the  turbulence  has  culminated  have  been,  the  com 
missioners  are  convinced,  simply  those  of  Indian  rowdyism. 

Whether  the  northern  Indians  intend  war  the  commissioners  cannot  say.  They 
have  not  been  able  to  find  any  indications  of  it,  other  than  those  which  have  caused 
uneasiness  in  former  years.  If  these  northern  tribes  can  be  brought  under  the  influ 
ence  of  the  present  feeding  policy  of  the  Government,  a  few  years  will  witness  the 
entire  removal  of  all  fears  on  this  score. 

The  advance  which  has  been  made  toward  the  solution  of  the  Sioux  problem,  in  the 
case  of  all  those  tribes  which  have  been  brought  under  the  operation  of  the  present 
policy,  is  manifest.  It  was  but  six  years  ago  that  the  Indians  now  gathered  about  the 
Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  were  constantly  upon  the  war-path,  and  were 
among  the  most  dangerous  foes  of  the  Government.  Under  the  present  policy  their 
wild,  fierce  spirit  has  been  taming  down,  and  their  proud  sense  of  power  and  the  de 
fiant  temper  which  resulted  from  it  have  been  decreasing,  while  their  dependence  upon 
the  Government  has  been  increasing  every  month,  so  that  a  general  war  movement  on 
their  part,  except  under  extraordinary  provocation,  is  almost  out  of  the  question. 
Your  commissioners  have  failed  to  discover  any  symptoms  calculated  to  weaken  their 
faith  in  the  practical  wisdom  of  the  present  policy  of  the  Government  and  of  its  desire 
to  avoid  a  war  with  the  Sioux  if  it  be  possible.  The  history  of  our  past  Indian  wars- 
is  humiliating.  It  is  folly  to  drive  to  desperation,  except  under  the  pressure  of  abso 
lute  duty,  a  wild  and  ferocious  people,  who  could  bring  into  the  field  from  six  thousand 
to  seven  thousand  warriors,  with  whom  war  is  a  passion,  who  range  over  a  wild 
country  of  vast  extent  which  is  a  terra  incognita  to  the  white  man,  but  every  inch  of 
which  is  familiar  to  the  Indian,  and  whose  warfare  would  be  characterized  by  all  the 
peculiar  difficulties  with  which  guerrilla  war  confronts  the  army  of  a  civilized  people. 

Only  two  methods  of  carrying  on  such  a  war  can  be  conceived  of,  it  is  believed, 
which  would  give  any  assurance  of  success. 

The  first  is  to  descend  to  the  level  of  the  Indian,  and  fight  him  with  wild  frontiers 
men,  after  his  own  savage  mode  ;  a  course  which  civilized  people  cannot  adopt  with 
out  self-degradation. 

The  other  method  is  to  inaugurate  war  on  a  scale  gigantic  enough  to  surround  or 
occupy  the  whole  Indian  country  ;  a  plan  which  would  call  for  an  expenditure  of 
money  and  the  raising  of  an  army  which  our  people  are  not  likely  to  authorize  and 
sustain  unless  under  a  sense  of  duty  or  of  wounded  national  honor,  which  there  is  no 
likelihood  the  present  or  future  attitude  of  the  Indians  will  create. 

War,  then,  the  commissioners  consider  out  of  the  question,  but  not  support  of  the 
agents  by  the  employment  of  military  force. 

The  Government  owes  it  to  its  agents  to  save  them  from  the  necessity  of  being  the 
toys  or  tools  of  lawless  savages,  and  thus  becoming  a  hinderauce  rather  than  a  help  to 
their  real  progress,  and  to  put  at  their  command  sufficient  power  to  enable  them  to 
discharge  their  duties  and  to  make  their  reasonable  demands  respected. 

It  owes  it  to  the  better-disposed  Indians  to  secure  them  another  resource  than  falling 
in  with  the  proceedings  of  the  wild  and  riotous,  or  else  becoming  their  victims,  and  to 
see  that  brute  violence  shall  no  longer  keep  at  a  distance  those  missionary  and  educa 
tional  instrumentalities  which  the  better  Indians  desire  and  their  friends  are  ready  to 
provide. 

The  commissioners  know  of  no  way  in  which  this  protection  can  be  secured  but  by 
the  posting  of  a  military  force  in  the  neighborhood  of  all  agencies  among  the  wilder 
Sioux.  They  believe  that  the  mere  presence  of  troops  would  ordinarily  accomplish  all 


809 

that  is  desired;  that  the  use  of  a  military  force  for  proper  purposes  would  command 
the  approval  of  the  better-disposed  Indians ;  that  familiarity  with  the  presence  of 
troops  would  tend  greatly  toward  taming  the  wilder  Sioux,  by  accustoming  them  to 
the  sight  and  tolerance  of  white  men  ;  that  the  support  of  troops  would  enable  the 
agents  to  be  a  power  "  for  the  punishment  of  evil-doers  and  for  the  praise  of  those  that 
do  well,"  and  to  drive  away  from  among  the  Indians  the  white  desperadoes  and  fugi 
tives  from  justice  who  have  hitherto  frequently  been  able  not  only  to  make  the  agen 
cies  their  refuge,  but  to  exert  a  very  sensible  influence  there.  The  corrupting  influ 
ence  of  private  soldiers,  which  will  at  once  occur  to  many  minds  as  an  objection  to 
this  plan,  is  not  to  be  feared  among  the  wilder  Sioux  as  much  as  elsewhere,  as  the 
women  are  generally  virtuous,  and  these  bad  influences  might  be  reduced  to  a  mini 
mum  by  the  placing  of  the  post  at  a  short  distance  from  the  agencies  and  by  the  ex 
clusion  of  Indians  from  their  precincts. 

In  confirmation  of  some  of  the  points  just  made  it  may  be  well  to  state  the  interest 
ing  fact  that  your  commissioners  found  on  arriving  at  the  agencies  that,  although 
there  had  been  the  greatest  opposition  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  to  the  coming  of  the 
troops,  they  did  not  attack  them,  and  became  reconciled  to  their  presence  when  the 
commission  assured  them  that  the  soldiers  were  not  sent  to  make  war,  but  to  protect 
good  men  and  their  agency,  and  that  during  their  whole  stay  of  some  weeks  and  their 
many  conferences  with  the  Indians  but  few  urgent  words  of  dislike  to  the  presence  of 
the  troops  were  uttered,  however  much  the  Indian  young  men  may  have  bantered  the 
soldiers  with  alarming  stories  and  threats. 

Should  the  continued  occupation  of  these  agencies  by  troops  be  determined  on,  your 
commissioners  recommend  that  the  relations  of  the  agents  and  the  military  command 
ers  should  receive  careful  consideration  and  be  definitely  determined. 

NORTHERN  TRIBES. 

From  the  above  narrative  it  is  apparent,  your  commissioners  think,  that  the  agents 
at  Ked  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  have  as  many  Indians  in  those,  now  properly 
connected  with  their  agencies,  (say  about  5,000  or  0,000  each,)  as  they  can  possibly 
manage  ;  that  the  northern  tribes,  who  make  it  a  habit  to  come  into  their  agencies  in 
the  fall,  are  a  disturbing  element,  strengthening  the  evil-disposed  and  enfeebling  the 
good  ;  and  that  they  are  a  part  of  the  Sioux  Nation,  numerous  enough  and  important 
enough  to  call  for  a  distinct  effort  of  the  Government  for  their  conciliation  and  event 
ual  civilization.  To  this  end,  your  commissioners  respectfully  recommend  that  a  del 
egation  be  induced  to  visit  Washington  the  coming  summer — a  mode  of  treatment  of 
tested  efficacy  ;  that  they  be  informed  that  no  Indians  will  hereafter  be  fed  at  either 
Red  Cloud  or  Spotted  Tail  agency  without  being  iirst  enrolled;  that  they  be  discour 
aged  from  going  to  those  agencies;  and  that  they  be  offered  an  agency  of  their  own. 
The  question  at  once  arises,  where  should  the  agency  be  located!  The  hive  of  the 
hostile  Sioux,  their  retreat  in  times  of  danger,  their  place  of  council  when  marauding 
parties  are  being  organized,  is  the  Black  Hills.  All  agencies,  all  military  forts  yet 
established  by  the  Government,  being  upon  the  fringe  only  of  an  immense  country, 
have  left  the  vast  power  which  circles  about  this  spot,  the  pride  of  the  nation,  un 
touched. 

An  agency  and  a  garrison  planted  somewhere  near  these  hills  would  put  the  whole 
Sioux  country  and  people  under  the  control  of  the  Government  as  they  have  never 
been  before,  and  open  up  this  at  present  impenetrable  heart  of  the  nation  to  the  rays 
of  civilizing  influences ;  and  if  the  bottom-lands  of  the  forks  of  the  Cheyenne  and  of 
the  streams  which  flow  into  them  from  the  Black  Hills  should  prove,  upon  examination, 
good  for  agricultural  purposes,  as  many  represent  that  they  are,  the  commission  be 
lieve  the  planting  of  an  agency  in  the  Black  Hills  country  worth  all  the  expense  which 
its  establishment  would  involve. 

COUNCILS  WITH  THE   INDIANS. 

The  commission  held  a  number  of  councils  with  the  Indians  at  both  the  agencies. 
The  northern  Indians  had  gone  off  upon  hearing  of  the  approach  of  the  troops,  and  the 
efforts  o£  the  commission  to  secure  a  hearing  from  them  were  not  successful.  The 
attendance  of  chiefs  and  headmen  of  the  Ogallallas,  however,  at  their  agency,  and  of 
the  Upper  Brules  at  theirs,  was  very  general.  The  following  points  were  urged  ypon 
them  at  both  agencies,  in  an  address  delivered  on  behalf  of  the  commission  by  their 
chairman,  a  copy  of  which  accompanies  this  report : 

1st.  That  they  should  submit  immediately  to  the  registration  of  their  people. 

2d.  That  they  should  deliver  up  Indians  who  murdered  white  men  or  committed 
depredations  upon  their  property ;  or  that  if,  for  any  reason,  they  were  unable  to  do 
this,  they  should  countenance  their  agent  in  calling  in  the  military  force  to  arrest  the 
offender. 

3d.  That,  as  the  occasion  of  most  murders  and  depredations  was  the  absence  of  Indi- 


810 

ans  from  their  reservation,  in  the  exercise  of  the  privilege  accorded  them  by  the  treaty 
of  1868,  to  hunt  buffalo  on  the  Republican  Fork,  and  to  roam  in  the  country  south  of 
their  reservation  as  far  as  the  North  Platte,  they  had  better  consent,  for  a  proper  con 
sideration,  to  surrender  this  right. 

4th.  That  the  Government  proposed  to  send  a  party  of  surveyors  to  run  the  northern 
line  of  Nebraska,  and  that  the  Indians  should  put  no  obstacles  in  their  waj7. 

5th.  That  the  Indians  should  consent  to  the  removal  of  their  agencies  to  such  local 
ities  as  might  be  fixed  upon  by  the  commission,  after  a  careful  exploration  by  the 
commissioners,  accompanied  by  a  large  representation  of  Indians.* 

The  people  were  evidently  much  disappointed  that  the  commission  had  no  attractive 
promises  to  make  nor  presents  to  distribute,  and  the  state  of  mind  was  exhibited  on 
all  sides  which  is  to  be  expected  when  the  Government,  having  pursued  with  some 
success  the  commendable  policy  of  drawing  savages  in  from  their  native  defiance  by 
conciliation  and  presents,  arrives  at  the  point  when  it  must  teach  them  their  duties. 
Discussions  with  them  revealed  most  unreasonable  expectations,  pitiable  want  of 
appreciation  of  the  benefits  already  conferred,  and  gross  misconception  of  the  require 
ments  of  the  treaty  of  1868.  Indeed,  it  became  more  and  more  apparent  every  day 
that  neither  the  people,  nor  their  chiefs  who  signed  the  treaty,  now  understand,  nor 
indeed  ever  understood,  its  terms.  This  opinion  was  confirmed  by  conversation  held 
afterward  with  persons  familiar  with  the  Indians.  He  who  would  have  looked  for 
anything  else  has  not  learned  human  nature  well,  nor  his  first  lesson  in  dealing  with 
the  wild  children  of  the  plain.  It  was  delightful,  however,  to  notice  the  universal 
reverence  and  love  which  exist  for  their  Great  Father,  as  they  term  the  President,  and 
the  self-control  with  which,  with  some  exceptions,  their  speeches  and  their  conduct 
were  distinguished.  The  only  violations  of  this  moderation  were  on  two  occasions, 
when,  to  cut  off  remarks  on  either  side,  the  Indians  were  on  a  sudden  dispersed  by  a 
signal  given  by  their  chiefs,  and  the  commission  were  left,  the  first  time  a  little  to 
their  consternation,  without  an  audience. 

The  registration,  which  was  the  first  point  urged  by  the  commission,  was  assented  to 
at  the  Red  Cloud  agency  without  much  opposition,  and  was  made  (for  a  first  essay, 
somewhat  satisfactorily)  by  the  agent  within  a  week  after  our  first  council.  At  the 
Whetstone  agency  it  met  with  more  opposition. 

The  second  point  urged  by  the  commission  would  have  confronted  thorn  with  a  much, 
less  difficult  task  had  the  Indians  not  been  able  to  array  before  them  a  counterbalancing 
record  of  depredations  upon  the  persons  and  property  of  Indians  committed  by  white 
men. 

The  reply  to  this  second  point  was  the  same  in  substance  at  both  agencies.  The 
Indians  said  that  a  chief,  Whistler,  well  known  as  a  friendly  Indian,  and  two  of  his 
men,  had  been  murdered  in  the  summer  of  1872,  and  that  within  a  few  weeks  a  large 
number  of  horses  had  been  run  off  by  white  men  from  the  neighborhood  of  the  Red 
Cloud  agency. 

They  represented  that  these  murderers  and  depredators  had  never  yet  been  punished, 
and  that  if  the  Government  of  the  United  States  could  not  succeed  in  capturing  white 
men  who  murdered  Indians,  it  was  hardly  fair  that  it  should  expect  Indians  to  capture 
Indians  who  murdered  white  men.  They  urged,  further,  that  the  Indians  had  no 
instrumentalities  for  'arresting  criminals,  and  that  the  attempt  to  do  it  would  only 
involve  them  in  criminations  and  recriminations  and  broils  among  themselves.  They 
said,  however,  that  if  their  agents  called  upon  the  military  to  aid  them  in  arresting 
evil-doers,  the  Indians  would  not  object.  This  reply  is  not  unreasonable. 

The  commissioners  are  glad  to  be  able  to  report,  as  the  result  of  their  councils  with 
the  Indians  of  Red  Cloud  agency  on  this  point,  that  they  resolved  to  make  up  a  list  of 
all  depredations  which  they  know  to  have  been  made  by  their  people  upon  the  whites, 
which  list  they  propose  to  forward  to  their  Great  Father,  with  the  request  that  dam 
ages  be  paid  out  of  the  money  belonging  to  them.  The  commission  advise  that  their 
agents  be  instructed  to  follow  up  all  cases  of  murder  and  other  depredations  by  the 
Indians,  but  that  in  the  use  of  the  troops  they  should  be  governed  by  the  greatest 
possible  caution,  and  that  they  shall  carry  out  the  provisions  of  Article  I  of  the  Treaty 
of  1868.  This  reads  as  follows  : 

"  Treaty  with  Sioux  Indians,  29th  April,  1868.  . 

"ARTICLE  I. 

"From  this  day  forward  all  war  between  the  parties  to  this  agreement  shall  forever 
cease.  The  Government  of  the  United  States  desires  peace,  and  its  honor  is  hereby 
pledged  to  keep  it.  The  Indians  desire  peace,  and  they  now  pledge  their  honor  to 
maintain  it. 

11  If  bad  men  among  the  whites,  or  among  other  people  subject  to  the  authority  of  the. 

*Upou  further  consideration,  the  last  point  was  given  up,  so  far  as  lied  Cloud  agency  was  concerned, 
for  reasons  that  appear  further  on. 


811 

United  States,  shall  commit  any  wrong  upon  the  person  or  property  of  the  Indians,  the 
United  States  will,  upon  proof  made  to  the  agent  and  forwarded  to  the  Commissionee 
of  Indian  Affairs  at  Washington  City,  proceed  at  once  to  cause  the  offender  to  br 
arrested  and  punished  according  to  the  laws  of  the  United  States,  and  also  re-imburse 
the  injured  person  for  the  loss  sustained. 

"  If  bad  men  among  the  Indians  shall  commit  a  wrong  or  depredations  upon  the  per 
son  or  property  of  any  one,  white,  black,  or  Indian,  subject  to  the  authority  of  the 
United  States,  and  at  peace  therewith,  the  Indians  herein  named  solemnly  agree  that 
they  will,  upon  proof  made  to  their  agent  and  notice  by  him,  deliver  up  the  wrong-doer 
to  the  United  States,  to  be  tried  and  punished  according  to  its  laws ;  and  in  case  they 
willfully  refuse  so  to  do,  the  person  injured  shall  be  re-imbursed  for  his  loss  from  the 
annuities  or  other  moneys  due  or  to  become  due  to  them  under  this  or  other  treaties 
made  with  the  United  States. 

"And  the  President,  on  advising  with  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  shall  pre 
scribe  such  rules  and  regulations  for  ascertaining  damages  under  the  provisions  of  this 
article  as  in  his  judgment  may  be  proper. 

"  But  no  one  sustaining  loss  while  violating  the  provisions  of  this  treaty  or  the  laws 
of  the  United  States  shall  be  re-imbursed  therefor." 

It  became  apparent  in  our  councils  and  informal  conversations  with  the  Indians  that 
they  considered  that  their  liberty  to  kill  is  restrained  only  so  far  as  white  men  are 
concerned,  and  that  they  have  no  adequate  conception  of  the  fact  that  marauding  ex 
peditions  against  Pawnees,  Poncas,  &c.,  are  displeasing  to  the  Great  Father.  They 
affected  great  surprise  when  told  that  the  massacre  of  the  Pawnees  last  auumier  horri 
fied  their  friends  at  the  East. 

Your  commifesioners  suggest  that  their  agents  he  specially  instructed  to  inform  them 
that  these  and  all  other  Indians  are  the  Great  Father's  children. 

The  third  proposal  of  the  commission  touches  a  right  which  the  Indians  hold  very 
dear,  and  it  was  hardly  expected  that  it  would  meet  with  a  favorable  reply,  and  it  did 
not. 

But  the  privilege  of  hunting  upon  the  Republican  Fork  and  of  roaming  in  the  un- 
ceded  land  north  of  the  Platte  is  fraught  with  evil.  It  keeps  active  in  the  Indians 
their  wild  and  roving  habits.  It  removes  them  for  a  considerable  time  from  the  good 
influences  with  which  the  Government  is  seeking  to  surround  them  on  their  reserva 
tion.  It  is  the  only  just  pretext  which  they  have  for  crossing  their  boundary-line  into 
the  territory  of  the  whites,  and  is  every  year  the  occasion  of  murders  perpetrated 
either  by  Indians  upon  white  men  or  by  white  men  upon  Indians.  The  shocking  mas 
sacre  of  Pawnees  about  nine  months  ago  would  never  have  occurred  but  from  the  fact 
that  the  perpetrators  were  off  for  a  hunt  on  the  Republican  Fork.  The  commission 
believe  the  right  in  question  to  be  the  source  of  a  large  proportion  of  the  alarms  from 
Indians  which  periodically  run  over  parts  of  our  western  country,  and  of  a  great  part 
of  the  irritation  which  exists  to  so  lamentable  an  extent  between  the  Indians  and  the 
border  whites.  The  United  States,  as  the  guardian  of  these  Indians,  should  deny  them 
hereafter  this  harmful  right,  and  could  afford  to  make  its  surrender  less  unpalatable 
by  making  them  a  handsome  present  of  blankets,  Indian  cloth,  ticking,  and  blue 
drilling. 

The  fourth  proposition  of  the  commission,  viz,  that  the  Indians  should  assent  to  the 
running  of  the  Nebraska  line,  was  not  very  acceptable  to  them,  but  no  warm  opposi 
tion  was  offered  to  it.  The  commission  are  of  the  opinion  that,  if  the  Indians  are  in 
formed  through  their  agents,  before  the  appearance  of  the  surveyors,  of  their  object, 
the  survey  may  be  undertaken  this  summer  without  increasing  the  danger  of  hostili 
ties.  The  party  should  be  accompanied  either  by  an  escort  of  soldiers^  or  better,  by 
a  paid  escort  of  friendly  Indians.  A  survey  will  probably  make  it  apparent,  however, 
that  the  Nebraska  line  runs  far  north  of  what  the  Indians  suppose  to  be  the  southern 
boundary  of  their  reservation.  It  is  unfortunate  that  the  treaty  of  1868  determined 
the  southern  limits  of  the  reservation  by  an  imaginary  line.  An  Indian  cannot  under 
stand  what  this  is.  Extravagant  claims,  or,  at  the  best,  misconception,  are  the  natural 
and  certain  result. 

The  fifth  point  brought  up  by  the  commission,  the  location  of  agencies,  is  perhaps 
the  most  important  and  far-reaching  in  its  influences  of  them  all.  It  seems  to  your 
commission  that  the  time  has  come  when  a  general  plan  for  the  location  of  agencies 
should  be  adopted,  which  shall  embrace  the  whole  Sioux  Nation,  and  that  the  location 
of  agencies  shall  no  longer  be  governed,  as  it  has  been  of  necessity  often  in  the  past, 
by  merely  special,  temporary,  or  local  considerations.  The  commission  were  in  hopes 
that  the  Indians  at  both  agencies  could  be  induced  to  consent  to  the  removal  of  their 
agencies  to  any  points  which  your  commissioners  should  desire,  and  that  thus  they 
would  be  at  liberty  not  only  to  map  out,  but  to  put  into  effect,  a  general  plan  for  the 
location  of  the  agencies  for  all  the  Indians  who  are  not  now  upon  the  Missouri,  or  can 
not  be  advantageously  located  there.  There  seemed  sufficient  reason  for  removal  in 
the  fact  that  the  Whetstone  agency  is  situated  in  a  region  of  country  where  agricul 
ture,  to  which  it  is  the  policy  of  the  Government  to  turn  the  attention  of  the  people, 


812 

is  simply  out  of  the  question ;  and  that  the  Red  Cloud  agency  is  located  very  near  tor 
and  perhaps  even  south  of,  the  southern  line  of  the  Sioux  reservation.  The  commis 
sion,  however,  found  the  Indians  very  much  opposed  to  removal,  and  this  opposition 
in  the  case  of  Red  Cloud's  people  seemed  so  reasonable  that  the  commission  did  not 
feel  that  they  were  justified  in  insisting  on  their  removal.  It  is  only  eight  months 
since  these  people  were  removed,  much  against  their  will,  from  a  locality  still  farther 
south.  The  present  site  of  their  agency  was  chosen  by  an  authorized  commission  who 
judged,  upon  the  best  information  then  to  be  had,  that  the  selected  location  was  north 
of  the  southern  line  of  the  reservation.  This  site  is  a  beautiful  one,  and  offers  more- 
advantages  in  the  way  of  timber,  water,  and  arable  laud  than  any  which  can  be  found 
within  fifty  miles.  And,  finally,  considerable  expense  has  been  incurred  in  erecting  a 
large  stockade  and  a  number  of  agency-buildings. 

The  case  is  far  different,  however,  with  the  Whetstone  agency,  forty  miles  northeast 
of  Red  Cloud  agency,  on  the  White  Earth  River.  It  is  situated  in  the  midst  of  an 
utterly  barren  and  repulsive  region.  It  was  placed  there  without  authority.  Wood 
is  scarce.  The  water  is  inferior.  The  land  is  either  covered  by  a  very  shallow  soil  or 
utterly  denuded  of  it.  The  bottom-lands  of  the  White  Earth  River,  and  the  bottom 
lands  of  all  the  creeks  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  agency,  are  so  contracted  that  their 
practical  value  amounts  to  nothing.  And,  finally,  the  agency  is  at  a  great  distance 
(from  225  to  280  miles)  from  any  point  of  supply,  existing  or  possible,  on  any  route  of 
river  or  railroad  transportation.  The  site  is  thus  as  devoid  of  any  practical  advan 
tages  as  it  is  of  any  feature  that  can  attract  the  eye. 

If  it  were  the  policy  of  the  Government  to  let  Indian  life  drift  along  as  it  may,  until 
it  accomplishes  by  its  own  blindness  and  folly  its  final  extinction,  or  if  the  policy 
were  based  upon  the  principle  that  all  efforts  to  turn  the  energies  of  the  Indian  toward 
self-support  are  futile,  and  that,  therefore,  one  place  is  as  good  for  them  as  another,  the 
agency  might  wrell  remain  where  it  is.  But  if  it  is  desired  to  place  these  Indians  where 
agricultural  effort  may  reasonably  be  required  of  them,  where  the  large  number  of 
whites  and  half-breeds,  who  are  incorporated  with  them,  (numbering,  perhaps,  five 
hundred  souls,)  will  have  an  opportunity  to  improve  their  condition,  and  where 
respectable  men,  with  respectable  families,  will  be  willing  to  come  as  employes  and 
teachers,  change  is  essential.  It  should  be  made  with  expedition,  too.  A  large 
population  of  half-breeds  is  growing  up  among  them  in  utter  ignorance  of  the  sim 
plest  elements  of  education — intellectual,  moral,  and  religions.  Educational  and  mis 
sionary  efforts,  which  they  earnestly  desire  and  for  which  they  have  subscribed 
some  hundreds  of  dollars,  have  been  delayed  year  after  year,  and  are  practically 
impossible  as  long  as  the  present  unsatisfactory  condition  of  affairs  continues.  More 
over,  the  Government  can  hardly  erect  suitable  winter-quarters  for  the  military 
force  stationed  for  the  protection  of  this  agency  until  a  permanent  location  has  been 
selected.  The  commission  found  little  difficulty  in  persuading  two  of  the  three  bauds 
of  which  the  Lower  Brules  are  composed  to  take  their  view  of  the  case,  and  to  consent 
to  accompany  them  in  search  of  a  suitable  location.  Indeed,  many  of  them  were  quite 
ardent  in  representing  that  those  of  the  Indians  who  were  desirous  of  beginning  to 
plant  were  held  in  a  part  of  their  country  where  this  course  was  an  impossibility,  and 
where  they  were  removed  some  four  or  five  miles  from  wood  by  the  selfish  opposition 
of  one  of  the  chiefs  (Spotted  Tail)  and  his  baud.  The  claims  and  conceit  of  this  chief 
know  no  bounds,  and  being  himself  settled,  with  his  band,  upon  Bordeaux  Creek, 
where,  having  wrood  and  water  and  receiving  rations  from  the  Government,  he  lives  at 
ease,  he  persistently  opposed  all  the  efforts  of  your  commissioners  toward  the  selection 
of  a  site  for  the  agency.  As  his  influence  towers  above  that  of  all  others,  the  commis 
sion  did  not  dare  travel  through  the  country  against  his  will,  and  there  was  no  course 
left  to  them,  and  those  who  were  ready  to 'accompany  them  in  seeking  a  site  for  the 
agency,  but  to  succumb. 

He  pursued  a  similar  course  in  reference  to  several  of  the  other  propositions  of  the 
commission.  It  was  in  vain  that  they  urged  upon  him,  day  after  day,  that  the  Great 
Father  was  resolved  that  the  people  should  be  counted.  The  Corn  band  and  the  Loafer 
band,  constituting  about  half  the  people,  consented  immediately  ;  but  Spotted  Tail 
first  refused  and  then  prevaricated,  and  the  commission  were  obliged  to  leave  without 
accomplishing  this  object  of  their  errand.  They  are  of  the  opinion  that  the  time  has 
come  for  decisive  measures,  and  that  one  man  and  his  band  should  no  longer  be  per 
mitted  to  breed  a  spirit  of  resistance  among  the  people  and  retard  their  progress.  They 
recommend  that  the  agent  be  instructed  to  desist  immediately  from  issuing  rations  to 
any  band  which  has  not  permitted  itself  to  be  registered,  and  to  refuse  them  rations 
until  they  submit,  and  that  measures  be  taken  to  insure  that  the  military  force  at  the 
agency  is  sufficient  to  support  him.  in  carrying  out  these  instructions. 

They  also  recommend  that  this  same  commission  be  sent  out  again,  and  be  provided 
with  sufficient  cavalry  force  to  protect  them  in  searching  for  a  suitable  site  for  an 
agency.  They  have  reason  to  think  that  such  a  course  would  exert  a  most  wholesome 
influence,  by  "showing  these  people  that  they  must  acquiesce  in  the  demands  of  the 
Government,  and  that  it  would  not  lead  to  war. 


813 

The  commission  have  reason  to  believe  that  a  suitable  site  for  an  agency  may  be 
found  farther  down  the  White  Earth  River,  either  at  the  mouth  of  Big  White  Clay, 
about  two  hundred  miles  from  the  Missouri,  at  the  mouth  of  Wound'ed  Knee  Creek, 
one  hundred  and  eighty-five  miles  from  that  river,  or  near  the  South  Fork  of  the  White 
Earth,  about  one  hundred  and  twenty  miles  from  the  Missouri. 

The  commission  are  not  prepared,  with  their  present  information,  to  recommend  the 
removal  of  the  agency  to  the  banks  of  the  Missouri.  Such  a  site  would  be  desirable 
were  economy  in  furnishing  supplies  and  ease  of  military  occupation  the  only  deside 
rata;  but  the  good  of  the  Indians  the  commission  holds  to  be  a  matter  of  supreme 
concern.  So  far  as  the  commission  could  learn,  the  only  land  on  the  Missouri  Availa 
ble  for  the  occupancy  of  the  Brules  is  that  formerly  occupied  by  them  at  the  mouth  of 
Whetstone  Creek.  Its  extent  is  represented  as  very  limited  aud  entirely  unequal  to 
the  wants  of  a  large  body  of  Indians  whose  energies  are  to  be  directed  to  farming.  The 
supply  of  timber  is  very  insufficient.  The  land  lies  opposite  to  a  strip  occupied  by  ranch 
men,  who  live  largely  by  traffic  in  whisky,  and  who,  when  the  Indians  were  located  at 
the  mouth  of  Whetstone  Creek,  some  years  ago,  flooded  their  camp  with  whisky,  and 
made  it  such  a  scene  of  riot  and  bloodshed  that  the  people  even  yet  speak  of  it  with 
horror.  Even  the  presence  of  the  military  failed,  it  is  represented,  to  suppress  this 
traffic.  It  is  an  evil,  it  is  to  be  feared,  which  no  precautions  could  prevent  at  that  spot 
among  a  body  of  Indians  in  which  the  white  and  half-breed  elementis  as  largely  repre 
sented  as  it  is  among  these  Brul6s. 

PERMANENT  HOME   FOR   THE   SIOUX. 

A  great  part  of  the  Sioux  reservation  is  an  utterly  barren  district.  The  arable  land 
embraced  within  it  will  not  be  sufficient  for  the  wants  of  half  the  population  when 
they  have  given  themselves  to  agriculture.  Even  where  the  soil  is  good,  a  crop  cannot 
be  raised  more  than  one  year  out  of  three,  on  account  of  ravages  of  grasshoppers  and 
hail-storms,  and  the  extreme  dryness  of  the  climate.  Their  reservation  is  thus  a  dis 
couraging  place  for  beginners  in  agriculture.  Some  of  those  of  the  Sioux  who  are 
making  efforts  in  farming  (for  example,  some  of  the  Santees)  are  anxious  to  move  to 
the  Indian  Territory.  If  good  land  is  at  the  disposal  of  the  Government  in  that  Terri 
tory,  the  commission  recommend  that  measures  be  taken  for  the  gradual  removal  thither 
of  all  Sioux  Indians  who  may  be  willing  to  emigrate.  The  Great  Sioux  reservation 
should  be  used  as  a  place  for  taming  the  Sioux  and  training  them  for  the  occupation  of 
the  Indian  Territory  as  their  home. 

PROMISE   OP  GUNS. 

The  commission  found  that  the  Indians  of  Red  Cloud  agency  had  been  laboring  under 
the  impression  that  Commissioners  Bruuot  and  Kemble  had,  last  year,  made  them,  on 
behalf  of  the  Government,  a  definite  promise  of  guns.  '  Indians  base  firm  hopes  on  any 
semblance  of  a  foundation.  The  evidence  shows  that  those  commissioners  made  no 
such  promise,  but  merely  expressed  themselves  in  favor  of  giving  the  Indians  a  certain 
number  of  guns,  and  promised  to  use  their  influence  in  favor  of  it.  Your  commissioners 
are  led  to  this  conclusion  by  the  testimony  of  military  officers  who  were  present,  as  well 
as  by  that  of  one  at  least  of  the  interpreters. 

HOARDING  OF  AMMUNITION. 

It  appears  from  the  statements  of  the  traders  at  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone  agencies, 
herewith  sent,  that  the  whole  amount  of  trade  during  the  three  months  beginning 
December  1,  a  time  when  the  largest  number  of  Indians  was  present  at  these  agencies, 
was  $37,224.59.  The  amount  of  ammunition  sold  to  whites  and  Indians  during  the 
same  time  was  $1,416.90,  or  less  than  one-thirteenth  of  the  entire  trade. 

During  these  months  the  number  of  Indians  present  was  variously  estimated  from 
20,000  to  25,000.  If  we  take  the  less  number  as  most  likely  to  be  correct,  there  would 
have  been  less  than  five  thousand  men,  old  enough  to  bear  arms,  present  at  both  agen 
cies.  Deducting  the  old  and  the  sick  and  those  not  owning  arms,  three  thousand  is 
probably  the  number  actually  buying  ammunition.  The  amount  purchased  by  each 
individual,  therefore,  was  less  than  one-half  dollar  in  value.  The  small  quantity  the 
purchasers  would  receive  for  that  sum,  owing  to  the  high  rates  charged  by  the  traders, 
would  seem  to  show  conclusively  that  no  large  quantity  could  have  been  hoarded. 
And  if  any  individual  belonging  to  hostile  bands  has  purchased  more  largely,  it  has 
been  probably  for  distribution  when  he  should  arrive  at  his  own  camp.  This  would 
make  the  quantity  so  small  that  another  use  than  the  killing  of  game  could  hardly 
have  been  intended.  It  does  not  appear  that  the  demands  made  by  Indians  for  per 
mission  to  purchase  ammunition  have  been  larger  than  in  previous  years  or  than  is 
usual. 

ADMINISTRATION  OF  RF.D   CLOUD  AND  WHETSTONE  AGENCIES. 

The  commissioners  arrived  at  Red  Cloud  agency  Sunday  morning,  March  15,  and  on 
Monday  began  their  investigations  into  the  condition  of  affairs  there,  and  continued 
them  daily  until  March  18,  when  they  drove  to  Whetstone  agency,  aud  began  a  sitni- 


814 

lar  examination  there.  They  returned  to  Red  Cloud  agency  Friday,  March  27,  and 
resumed  their  investigations,  concluding  them  the  following  Tuesday,  when  they  re 
sumed  their  examination  at  the  Whetstone  agency.  They  judged  that  the  best  basis 
for  conducting  their  inquiry  into  the  administration  of  the  agents  was  the  allegations 
made  against  them  in  a  report  presented  to  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  by  Mr. 
Samuel  Walker,  who  visited  the  agencies  last  November,  which  report  was  referred 
by  the  Department  .to  this  commission.  Copies  of  this  report  were  placed  in  the  hands 
of  J.  J.  Saville  and  E.  A.  Howard,  agents,  and  they  were  severally  called  upon  to  re 
spond  to  its  statements  and  the  charges  against  their  administration  of  their  offices 
to  bef  inferred  therefrom.  Their  responses  were  subjected  to  a  searching  examination 
by  the  commission,  and  the  truth  of  their  statements  ascertained.  Wherever  wit 
nesses  were  referred  to  in  proof  of  their  assertions,  they  all  (or  a  sufficient  number  of 
them)  were  summoned,  and  their  testimony  taken  under  oath.  Wherever  books  or 
papers  were  quoted  or  appealed  to,  they  were  examined  by  the  commissioners  person 
ally.  The  responses  of  the  agents  are  submitted  as  part  of  this  report.  Testimony 
taken  in  this  connection  is  filed  herewith.  It  became  apparent  to  the  commission,  in 
the  course  of  their  inquiries,  that  some  of  the  affidavits  which  seemed  to  reflect  most 
upon  the  character  of  the  agents  were  such  partial  statements,  that  they  amounted  to 
a  culpable  supprcssio  reri ;  and  that  some  of  the  testimony,  on  which  were  based  the 
most  damaging  attacks  upon  their  administration,  was  the  testimony  of  a  well-known 
deserter  and  thief. 

Facts  cited  to  the  discredit  of  the  agents,  which  were  gleaned  at  the  agencies  during 
their  absence,  and  which  they  then  had  no  opportunity  to  account  for,  were,  when 
brought  to  their  notice,  satisfactorily  explained  ;  practices  which  were  irregular,  were 
shown  to  have  been  unavoidable  in  the  peculiar  circumstances  in  which  these  agents 
were  placed  ;  and  transactions  which  at  first  sight  seemed  suspicious,  and  to  which  a 
criminal  intent  has  been  imputed,  were  shown  £o  have  been  characterized  by  entire 
good  faith,  to  have  been  carried  on  in  broad  daylight,  and,  where  not  justifiable,  to 
have  been  not  wrong-doing,  but  the  mistakes  of  men  new  in  an  office  where,  peculiarly, 
the  incumbent  can  learn  only  from  experience. 

In  regard  to  one  transaction,  which  is  not,  perhaps,  sufficiently  explained  in  the 
reply  of  Agent  Saville,  viz,  the  enrollment  and  pay  of  F.  D.  Appleton,  clerk,  during  a 
period  when  he  was  not  actually  discharging  the  duties  of  his  office,  the  conclusion 
reached  by  the  commission  is  as  follows  : 

The  appointment  of  F.  D.  Appleton  was  made  in  good  faith,  and  from  the  date  on 
which  his  name  appears  on  the  pay-roll.  The  same  was  in  good  faith  accepted  by  him 
by  telegraph.  He  was  to  have  started  immediately  for  the  agency  to  assume  the 
duties  of  his  office,  and  was  only  detained  by  an  accident,  (broken  leg.)  The  agent, 
daily  expecting  his  arrival,  retained  his  name  on  the  pay-roll.  The  duties  of  his  posi 
tion  were  discharged  by  the  agent  and  employes  of  the  agency,  and  no  other  person 
received  compensation  as  clerk  up  to  the  time  of  his  assuming  the  duties  of  his  office 
in  person.  The  transaction  involved  irregularities,  but  the  commission  do  not  find 
that  any  fraud  was  intended  by  the  agent. 

The  commission  indorse  the  replies  of  the  agents  in  all  their  material  points,  and 
give  as  the  result  of  their  prolonged  investigation  into  the  points  touched  upon  in  Mr. 
Walker's  report,  and  the  result  also  of  their  intercourse  with  the  agents,  and  their 
personal  observations  of  men  and  things  at  the  agencies,  the  entire  relief  of  Agents 
Saville  and  Howard  from  the  suspicions  cast  upon  their  characters  and  their  adminis 
trations,  and  the.  earnest  conviction  that  these  gentlemen  have  performed  their  duties 
during  a  time  of  great  trial  and  in  the  midst  of  great  embarrassments  with  energy, 
honesty,  and  entire  fidelity  to  the  interests  of  the  Government  and  the  Indians,  and 
that  they  deserve  the  confidence  and  commendation  of  the  Department. 

The  commission  are  of  opinion  that  the  service  of  the  Department  would  be  im 
proved  if  the  following  instructions  were  issued,  viz  : 

That  all  beef  and  other  provisions  shall  be  issued  by  orders  upon  an  issue-clerk,  and 
that  these  orders  should  pass  through  the  agent's  office  in  order  to  their  appearance 
upon  the  books  of  the  agency. 

That  agents  shall  keep  all  their  original  orders  upon  their  issue-clerks,  in  order  that 
they  may  have  at  hand  the  means  of  satisfying  the  inquiries  of  inspectors  and  other 
authorized  inquirers. 

That  the  present  custom,  by  which  departing  agents  carry  all  the  papers  of  the 
agency  away  with  them,  and  thus  leave  their  offices  without  a  history,  and  their  suc 
cessors  destitute  of  any  guides  in  their  new  duties,  shall  be  henceforth  forbidden,  and 
that  these  papers  shall  be  the  property  of  the  Department. 

OVERISSUE  OF   BEEF. 

In  regard  to  one  matter,  which  has  come  before  the  commission  in  several  papers 
and  which  has  been  the  occasion  of  a  good  deal  of  public  animadversion,  viz,  the 
overissue  of  beef,  the  commission  reports  that  it  is  unquestionable  that  there  has 
been  overissue.  It  is  freely  admitted  by  both  the  agents;  they  have  reported  it  to  the 


815 

Department  from  time  to  time.  The  commission  believes  it  to  have  been  unavoida 
ble.  In  the  first  place,  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies  are  but  forty  miles 
apart,  and  there  is  no  doubt  that  the  same  Indians  frequently  drew  rations  at  both 
agencies,  an  evil  which  was  remediless  as  long  as  registration  was  impossible.  In  the' 
second  place,  it  appears  that  at  Red  Cloud  agency  the  supply  of  other  provisions  was 
short,  and  extra  beef  was  consequently  issued,  as  reported  in  Agent'  Saville's  letter  to 
the  Department,  of  December  29,  1873.  In  the  third  place,  the  testimony  is  abundant 
and  unanimous  to  the  point  that  these  agencies,  always  the  refuge  in  winter  of  northern 
Indians  who  have  connected  themselves  with  no  agency  in  particular,  were  last  winter 
the  resort  of  a  larger  number  than  usual ;  that  they  united  with  the  Indians  belong 
ing  to  the  agencies  in  making  the  grossest  misrepresentations  as  to  their  numbers,  and 
basing  on  them  extravagant  demands  for  rations;  that  they  thwarted  all  attempts  of 
the  agents  to  arrive  at  a  true  estimate  of  the  amount  of  food  they  were  entitled  to  ; 
that  a  census  could  not  have  been  made  except  at  the  peril  of  the  agents'  lives  ;  and 
that  the  agents,  failing  in  their  efforts  to  number  the  people,  always  strove  to  cut 
down  the  issue  to  the  lowest  amount  possible,  and  that  their  issues  were  generally  far 
less  than  the  Indians  would  have  received  had  their  exorbitant  demands  been  fully 
complied  with. 

There  is,  however,  no  evidence  whatsoever  that  more  beef  was  issued  than  was  actu 
ally  used,  either  by  immediate  consumption,  or  by  being  dried  and  laid  by  in  store; 
and  rumors  to  the  effect  that  the  issue  of  beef  was  so  excessive  last  winter  that  large 
quantities  were  left  to  rot,  the  Indians  taking  only  the  hides,  are,  the  commissioners  . 
believe,  entirely  without  foundation  in  fact. 

WASTE   OF  FLOUR. 

The  commission  saw  many  evidences  that  there  has  been  more  or  less  waste  of  flour. 
This  has  not  arisen,  so  far  as  the  commission  was  able  to  discover,  from  an  issue  exceed 
ing  that  authorized  by  the  Department,  but  partly  from  the  fact  that  wild  Indians 
are  not  fond  of  flour,  and  are  apt  to  neglect  its  use,  especially  when  the  supply  of  beef 
is  as  abundant  as  it  has  necessarily  been  at  these  agencies ;  partly  from  the  fact  that 
some  of  the  flour  issued  had  been  long  on  hand  and  had  become  musty,  and  partly  from 
the  fact  that  large  quantities  of  flour,  which  the  present  agent  found  on  hand  when  he 
entered  upon  his  office  last  June,  being  utterly  unfit  for  use,  were  dealt  out  to  the 
Indians  to  be  fed  to  their  ponies.  The  substitution  of  corn  for  a  part  of  the  flour  supply 
is  very  acceptable  to  the  Indians,  and  meets  with  the  approval  of  the  commission. 

VISIT  OF  SPOTTED   TAIL  TO   CHEYENNE. 

Such  a  visit  is  likely  to  be  suggested  and  to  be  made  under  the  influence  of  design 
ing  white  men,  and  is  always  more  or  less  to  be  suspected. 

As  appears  from  the  report  of  the  commission,  under  the  head  of  "supplies,"  their 
quality  is  not  such  as  to  justify  the  complaints  of  Spotted  Tail.  Those  familiar  with 
wild  Indians  know  that  complaint  is  always  the  burden  of  their  talk  in  an  interview 
with  those  who  are  supposed  to  be  in  communication  with  the  Great  Father. 

As  to  which  of  the  two  routes  should  be  used  in  transporting  freight  overland  to 
Whetstone  agency,  whether  that  from  Cheyenne  or  that  from  Fort  Randall,  the  com 
mission  gained  no  information  which  enables  it  to  express  a  decided  preference  for  one 
route  over  the  other.  If  the  cost  via  Fort  Randall  is  less  than  via  Cheyenne,  the  com 
mission  knows  of  no  disadvantages  under  which  the  former  labors  which  should  give 
the  preference  to  the  other. 

They  think  that  the  proposition  that  Spotted  Tail's  people,  or  those  legally  incorpo 
rated  with  them,  should  have  the  privilege  of  doing  their  own  freighting,  worthy  of 
attention.  If  their  agent  is  prepared  to  superintend  it,  and  to  make  proper  arrange 
ments  for  the  faithful  discharge  of  the  service,  the  plan  has  manifest  advantages,  and 
the  commission  recommend  that  it  be  tried. 

SUPPLIES,  THEIR  INSPECTION,  QUALITY,   ETC. 

Your  commission  are  of  opinion  that  a  due  regard  to  the  interests  of  the  Govern 
ment  and  the  Indians  demands  that  all  packages  consigned  to  agents  for  the  Indians 
in  fulfillment  of  contracts  should,  without  exception,  bear  the  brand  which  marks 
them  as  the  property  of  the  Indian  Department,  and  also  the  brand  of  the  inspector, 
indicating  that  they  have  passed  his  inspection. 

Their  examination  of  flour  in  an  unloaded  car  at  the  Cheyenne  store-house,  and  of 
supplies  in  that  store-house  and  at  the  agencies,  revealed  the  fact  that  this  branding  is 
frequently  omitted.  Many  packages  bore  neither  brand. 

They  noticed  that  barreled  pork  is  supplied,  to  a  degree,  at  Whetstone  agency  in 
stead  of  bacon.  The  supply  of  the  latter  article  at  both  Red  Cloud  and  Whetstone 
agencies  was  exhausted,  so  that  the  commission  was  unable  to  judge  of  its  quality. 
They  examined  the  pork,  however,  and  found  it  sweet  and  good. 

The  commission  was  not  furnished  with  samples,  and,  therefore,  could  not  determine 
whether  the  supplies  were  up  to  the  standard  required  by  the  contract.  They  exam- 


816 


ined,  however,  the  flour,  sugar,  coffee,  and  other  supplies  on  hand  at  both  agencies 
and  in  the  store-house  at  Cheyenne.  They  were  all  of  fair  quality.  Both  the  agents 
agreed  that  it  would  be  better  to  provide  baking-powders  iustead'of  saleratus,  as  the 
Indians  do  not  know  how  to  use  the  latter  properly. 

The  commission  took  particular  pains  to  inquire  into  the  quality  and  weight  of  the 
beef  furnished  by  the  contractor  during  the  current  fiscal  year.  The  testimony  of 
many  witnesses,  and  the  personal  observation  of  the  members  of  the  commission,  con 
vinced  them  that  the  cattle  have  been  remarkably  excellent  in  quality,  size,  and  con 
dition,  and  that  their  average  weight  has  been,  on  the  whole,  considerably  above  that 
required  by  the  contract.  The  average  weight  required  by  the  terms  of  the  contract 
for  the  six  months  beginning  July  1,  1873,  was  eight  hundred  pounds,  while  the  cattle 
actually  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  time  regarding  which  the  incum 
bency  of  the  present  agent  enabled  him  to  testify  weighed  on  an  average  as  follows  : 

First  six  months. 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Average 

weight. 

Total. 

20 

1  050 

21  000 

August  15                                                                               „ 

383 

1  010 

386  830 

September  1  

483 

1,040 

502  320 

561 

1  056 

58()  050 

October  1     ...            

647 

1  063 

687  761 

October  15 

633 

1  043 

660  219 

[November  1  .          

290 

993 

287  970 

410 

963 

3%  470 

December  1 

507 

975 

494  497 

508 

946 

480  568 

The  average  weight  required  by  contract  during  the  six  months  beginning  January 
1,  1874,  was  one  thousand  and  fifty  pounds,  while  the  average  weight  delivered  was  as 
follows,  viz  : 

Second  six  months,  up  to  date. 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Average 
weight. 

Total. 

312 

904 

282  310 

330 

881 

290  856 

January  21              

340 

1,002 

340  908 

February  2 

356 

993 

352  508 

[February  15        

300 

1,016 

305  064 

March  7* 

350 

1  063 

372  050 

March  23                                                    ....                   

271 

1,  053 

285  425 

These  latter  figures  are  below  those  required  by  the  contract,  but  not  as  much  below 
as  those  for  the  first  six  months  are  above.  The  whole  average  has  been  in  advance  of 
that  which  the  contract  demanded. 

The  terms  of  the  contract  for  the  Whetstone  agency  are  the  same, as  those  for  the 
Red  Cloud,  viz,  an  average  of  eight  hundred  pounds  for  the  six  months  beginning  July 
1,  and  an  average  of  one  thousand  and  fifty  pounds  for  the  succeeding  six  mouths. 
The  average  weights  actually  delivered  have  been  as  follows  : 

First  six  mouths. 


Date. 

No.  of 
head. 

Average 
weight. 

Total. 

July  12  , 

322 

942 

303,  324 

July  23                     ... 

725 

1  048 

759,  800 

August  15  

444 

1,  052 

467,  088 

September  1 

460 

1  050 

483,  000 

September  15  

530 

1,005 

532,  650 

October  15  

1  056 

1,047 

1,  105,  632 

November  25 

655 

950 

622  250 

December  12  ..... 

355 

915 

324,  825 

817 

Second  sip  months,  up  to  date. 


January  20                 

401 

940.  38 

377,  092 

198 

959 

189  878 

February  13                      

251 

1,012.80 

254,  207 

March  19 

270 

1  028  70 

277  749 

The  letter  of  the  contract  has  Dot,  as  thus  appears,  been  complied  with  at  either 
agency,  and  the  commission  supposes  that  the  contractor  is  liable  for  damages  for  non- 
compliance. 

The  mind  of  the  commission,  under  these  circumstances,  is  expressed  in  a  letter  of 
Agent  Howard  of  March  26,  and  their  indorsement  of  it  given  herewith,  as  follows. 

Whether  the  contractor  will  accept  this  compromise,  the  commission  are  not  informed. 

"  WHETSTONE  AGENCY,  DAKOTA  TERKITORY, 

"  March  26,  1874. 

"SiR  :  I  had  the  honor  in  my  letter  of  the  16th  instant  to  refer  to  the  question  of  the 
future  supply  of  beef  for  this  agency. 

"  I  desire  herein  further  to  state  that  in  consequence  of  the  unsettled  state  of  the 
country  hereabout,  it  is  difficult  to  get  beef-cattle  here  of  the  proper  description  to 
accord  with  tl  e  original  terms  of  the  contract  for  this  season. 

"  Since  receiving  Department  letter  of  February  13,  I  have  received  one  lot  for  issue 
which  does  not  weigh  up  to  the  requirements  of  that  letter. 

l(  The  contractor  states  that  they  were  driven  here  from  a  distance  of  80  miles  with 
only  one  night's  rest,  thereby  losing  much  of  their  weight,  and  that  his  herds  having 
of  late  been  frequently  disturbed,  they  have  materially  fallen  off  in  weight. 

"  He  has  delivered  at  this  agency,  from  July  1,  1873,  to  February  13,  1874,  inclusive, 
5,397  head,  weighing  5,419,746  pounds,  averaging  1,004.21  pounds,  and  therefore  he  has 
exceeded  the  average  weight  actually  required  by  the  contract. 

"  I  respectfully  ask  permission  to  receive  and  receipt  for  cattle  weighing  a  less  avcr: 
age  than  1,050  pounds,  which  I  think  he  should  be  allowed  to  deliver. 

"  On  19th  March,  he  delivered   here  270  head,  weighing  277,749  pounds,  averaging 
1,029  pounds,  which  I  request  permission  to  receipt  for  at  that  weight. 
"  Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

"E.  A.  HOWARD, 
"  United  States  Indian  Agent. 
"Hon.  COMMISSIONER  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

"  Washington,  D.  C." 


"  WHETSTONE  AGENCY,  DAKOTA  TERRITORY, 

"  March  26,  1874. 

"  SIR:  By  the  contract  the  average  weight  of  cattle,  during  the  first  six  months  or 
the  fiscal  year,  was  to  be  at  least  800  pounds.  Evidence  is  abundant  that  the  average 
was  far  in  excess  of  this,  say  1,000. 

"  We  think  this  fact  a  justification  of  leniency  to  the  contractor  if  he  is  not  able  to 
furnish  cattle  quite  up  to  the  average  required  during  the  last  six  months  of  the  fiscal 
year. 

"The  evidence  is  sufficient  that  during  the  disturbances  the  contractor,  by  advice  of 
General  Ord,  removed  his  cattle  to  the  Platte,  and  in  consequence  had  to  drive  his  cat 
tle,  at  the  time  of  the  last  issue,  80  miles  without  sufficient  food  and  water.  Their  loss 
in  weight  under  these  circumstances  must  haAre  been  very  considerable.  We  believe 
that,  but  for  the  late  disturbance,  the  cattle  furnished  March  19  would  have  averaged 
1,050  pounds. 

"  We  indorse  the  statement  of  the  foregoing  letter  of  Agent  Howard,  and  recommend 
that  the  shortness  of  average  weight  during  January,  February,  and  March  be  over 
looked,  provided  the  contractor  will  furnish  beef  required  for  Whetstone  and  Red 
Cloud  agencies  over  and  above  amount  required  by  contract,  at  contract  prices.  We 
also  recommend  that  the  average  weight  of  cattle  to  be  furnished  after  this  date  shall 
be  not  less  than  900  pounds. 
"  Very  respectfully, 

"WILLIAM  H.  HARE. 
"FRANCIS  H.  SMITH. 
"J.  D.  BEVIER. 
"SAMUEL  D.  HINMAX. 
"  Hon.  COMMISSIONER  INDIAN  AFFAIRS." 

52  i  F 


818 

Your  commissioners  beg  respectfully  to  close  their  report  with  the  following  digest 
of  their  recommendations  and  conclusions: 

RECOMMENDATIONS. 

That  the  agents  at  the  Red  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  and  at  any  agencies 
hereafter  established  among  the  wilder  Sioux,  be  supported  by  a  military  force,  which 
should,  however,  except  under  extraordinary  circumstances,  be  at  a  short  distance 
from  the  agency  and  not  immediately  adjoining.  The  relation  of  the  a»-ent  and  the 
commanding  military  officer  should  be  definitely  determined.  That  an  agency  be  pro 
vided  for  the  Northern  Sioux,  and  that,  to  this  end,  they  be  refused  rations  at  the 
existing  agencies,  and  a  delegation  of  them  be  induced  to  visit  Washington,  and  that 
the  location  of  the  agency  be  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  Black  Hills. 

That  agents  be  instructed  to  carry  out  the  provisions  of  Article  I  of  the  Treaty  of 
1868. 

That  the  northern  line  of  Nebraska  be  run  this  summer. 

That  a  liberal  present  of  blankets,  Indian  cloth,  ticking,  and  blue  drilling  be  made 
the  Upper  Brules  and  Ogallallas  for  the  surrender  of  their  right  to  hunt  on  the  Repub 
lican  and  to  roam  over  the  neutral  ground  south  of  the  reservation,  and  that  they  be 
informed  that  this  right  is  withdrawn. 

That  the  agent  at  Whetstone  agency  be  instructed  not  to  issue  rations  to  any  band 
which  refuses  to  be  counted,  and  that  your  commissioners  be  requested  to  find  a  suit 
able  place  for  the  agency,  and  that  both  have  militarv  protection. 

That  all  beef  and  other  provisions  be  issued  by  'orders  on  the  issue-clerk,  which 
orders  should  pass  through  the  office  in  order  to  their  appearance  on  the  books  ;  that 
these  orders  be  filed  away  for  safe-keeping,  and  the  books  and  papers  of  the  agency  be 
the  property  of  the  Government  and  not  of  the  agent. 

That  the  Indians  of  Whetstone  agency  may  be  permitted  to  take  the  contract  for 
freighting. 

That  brands  of  United  States  Indian  Department  and  of  inspector  be  placed  upon 
all  packages  consigned  to  agents  under  contract. 

Recommendation  as  to  beef  for  balance  of  the  current  year. 

That,  Indians  being  their  own  worst  enemies,  being  bent  on  a  mode  of  life  that  is 
fatal  to  their  own  good,  and,  moreover,  rarely  understanding  the  meaning  of  treaties, 
and  more  rarely  still  remembering  the  obligations  therein  laid  upon  them,  a  just  and 
generous  declaration  by  the  United  States  Government  of  ichat  they  must  do  is  a  better  mode 
of  dealing  with  them  than  negotiation  or  treaty-making,  wherever  the  Government  is 
in  a  position  to  pursue  the  former  course. 

That  a  system  should  be  inaugurated  for  the  removal  of  the  Sioux,  as  soon  as  prac 
ticable,  to  a  climate  and  soil  less  discouraging  to  the  efforts  of  beginners  in  hus 
bandry. 

That  the  Sioux  be  informed  that  depredations  on  other  Indians  displease  the  Presi 
dent. 

CONCLUSION. 

The  late  disturbances  are  not  indicative  of  preparations  for  war. 
The  present  policy  is  accomplishing  the  results  desired. 
Commissioners  Brunot  and  Kemble  did  not  promise  these  Indians  guns. 
Removal  of  the  Upper  Brul6s  to  the  Missouri  is  of  doubtful  wisdom. 
Ammunition  has  not  been  hoarded  for  war. 

Agents  Saville  and  Howard  are  exonerated,  and  deserve  confidence  and  commenda 
tion. 

Beef  has  been  overissued,  but  the  agents  were  helpless  to  avoid  it. 
Beef  has  not  been  issued  in  such  quantities  that  it  has  been  left  to  rot. 
Flour  has  been  wasted  ;  causes  given. 

Spotted  Tail's  complaints  at  Cheyenne  were  not  justifiable. 
Supplies  of  all  kinds  are  wholesome  and  of  at  least  fair  quality. 
Submitted  on  behalf  of  all  the  commissioners; 

I  am,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

WILLIAM  H.  HARE, 

Chairman. 
F.  H.  SMITH, 
J.  D.  BEVIEK, 
SAMUEL  D.  HINMAN, 
WILLIAM  H.  HARE, 

Commissioners. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  April  22,  1874. 


319 


INSPECTOR  BEVIER'S  REPORT. 
Commissioner  Smith  to  Inspector  Bevier. 

MARCH  10,  1874. 

SIR:  I  send  inclosed  herewith  copies  of  report  and  documents  made  by  one  Samuel 
Walker,  who  appears  to  have  been  deputed  by  the  Board  of  Commissioners  to  make 
inquiries  into  reported  irregularities  at  Red  Clond  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies. 

I  desire  you  to  make  full  investigation  as  to  matters  treated  of  in  these  papers,  and 
submit  it  with  your  report  of  these  agencies. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner. 
J.  D.  BEVIER,  Esq., 

United  States  Indian  Inspector,  Red  Cloud  agency, 

(via  Cheyenne,  Wyoming.} 

THE   REPORT. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  October  23,  1874. 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  herewith  to  submit  report  of  my  visit  and  inspection  of  the 
Red  Cloud  agency,  in  charge  of  J.  J.  Saville,  United  States  Indian  agent. 

I  arrived  in  Cheyenne  on  the  18th  of  September,  and  remained  there  five  days,  wait 
ing  the  return  of  the  commission,  who  were  daily  expected  in  from  the  Whetstone 
agency,  that  I  might  see  them,  learn  the  result  of  their  mission,  and  return  with  their 
conveyance  to  those  agencies. 

They  returned  on  the  22d,  and  by  this  time  another  opportunity  presented  itself  to 
go  to  Red  Cloud  via  Sidney.  This  I  preferred,  as  it  gave  me  an  opportunity  to  go  over 
the  road  from  Sidney  to  Red  Cloud,  and  thus  enable  me  to  judge  of  the  comparative 
merits  of  the  two  routes,  viz,  from  Sidney,  and  from  Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  and  Whet 
stone  agencies.  Moreover,  it  gave  me  an  opportunity  to  take  the  herd  on  my  way,  and 
see  it. 

While  at  Cheyenne,  my  attention  was  called  to  the  flour  en  route  to  Red  Cloud.  I 
found  ten  car-loads  had  been  received  and  forwarded  to  the  agency.  Mr.  Palmer,  store 
keeper  at  Cheyenne,  informed  me  that  at  the  time  the  flour  arrived  there  was  no  in 
spector  to  examine  it,  and,  as  the  agent  was  in  need  of  it,  he  had  forwarded  it  on  to 
the  agency,  keeping  samples  of  each  car-load.  Those  samples  he  showed  me,  which 
we  compared  with  the  contract-sample,  and  thought  they  all  came  up  to  the  standard. 
Of  the  last  or  tenth  car-load,  Mr.  Palmer  showed  me  a  sample  which  compared  favor 
ably  with  all  the  rest  as  well  as  the  contract-sample ;  but  of  said  tenth  car-load 
twenty-three  sacks  remained  behind  accidentally.  At  this  time  Colonel  Long  was 
appointed  inspector.  He  examined  those  twenty-three  sacks,  and  condemned  them. 

I  examined  those  twenty-three  sacks,  and  found  the  quality  inferior  not  only  to  the 
contract-sample,  but  inferior  to  the  sample  which  Mr.  Palmer  gave  me  as  the  sample 
of  the  whole  of  that  car-load.  I  regarded  Colonel  Long's  action  in  condemning  it  as 
proper,  as  the  quality  was  greatly  inferior;  but  as  those  twenty-three  sacks  re  mained 
in  Cheyenne  simply  for  the  want  of  transportation,  the  last  -wagon  being  loaded  to  its 
full  capacity,  I  could  not  but  regard  those  twenty-three  sacks  as  a  fair  representation 
of  the  whole  car-load.  I  cannot  account  for  the  discrepancy  in  quality  between  the 
twenty-three  sacks  and  the  sample  retained  by  Store-keeper  Palmer. 

To  pursue  this  flour-question  to  the  end:  I  found  another  discrepancy  which  I  can 
not  explain.  The  ten  samples  of  the  ten  car-loads  kept  by  Store-keeper  Palmer  at 
Cheyenne  were  all  full  up,  in  my  judgment,  to  the  standard,  while  the  flour  at  the 
agency  was  mainly  inferior.  In  company  with  Mr.  Roberts,  the  clerk,  and  Mr.  Roland, 
watchman  and  chief  herder,  both  agency  employe's,  we  examined  and  compared  the 
flour  in  the  warehouse  with  the  contract-sample,  and  found  four  out  of  five  inferior. 
Query:  Did  the  flour  deteriorate  in  going  from  Cheyenne  to  the  agency!  So  much 
for  quality. 

Mr.  Roberts,  the  clerk  before  mentioned,  says  that,  upon  handling  the  flour,  his 
attention  was  attracted  to  certain  sacks,  which  looked  small  and  felt  light,  and,  in  con 
sequence  of  their  suspicious  appearance,  he  was  induced  to  weigh  them,  when  he 
found  some  weighed  77  pounds,  some  84,  some  94,  and  the  others  98. 

I  weighed  half  a  dozen  or  more  sacks,  one  of  each  different  brand,  and  they  all 
weighed  98.  Mr.  Roberts  thought  it  unnecessary  to  pursue  our  weighing  any  further, 
as  he  was  quite  confident  he  had  issued  all  the  light  sacks.  What  proportion  were 
light  he  had  no  idea.  All  receipted  for  as  full  weight.  Since  my  arrival  in  this  city  I 
learn  by  letter  that  "  five  more  car-loads  have  arrived  in  Cheyenne,  and  placed  in 
Mr.  French's  warehouse,  and  some  out  of  each  car  weighed,  the  average  being  88 
pounds  to  the  sack." 


820 

On  tlie  23d  of  September  I  returned  to  Sidney,  and  on  the  morning  of  the  24th  started 
from  Sidney  to  Red  Cloud.  On  the  evening  of  that  day  crossed  the  North  Platte  at 
Chimney  Rock.  The  next  morning  passed  through  the  herd  of  10,000  head,  spread  over 
a  surface  of  fifteen  miles  square.  The  next  night  arrived  at  Red  Cloud;  time,  two 
days  ;  distance,  120  miles.  In  this  connection,  it  is  but  fair  to  say  that  the  herd,  spoken 
of  as  the  best  ever  brought  into  the  State  of  Nebraska,  I  found,  as  far  as  I  could  judge, 
as  good  as  could  be,  nearly  uniform  in  size,  steers  said  to  be  from  four  to  eight  years 
of  age,  all  in  good  condition.  There  were  a  few  cows,  but  as  they  are  sold  by  weight, 
and  always  preferred  by  the  Indians,  I  know  of  no  objection  to  them. 

THE   KOAD 

from  Sidney  to  Red  Cloud  is  from  forty  to  fifty  miles  less,  and  to  Whetstone  from 
seventy-five  to  eighty  miles  less.  The  distances  are  as  follows:  From  Cheyenne, 
via  Fort  Laramie,  to  Red  Cloud,  one  hundred  and  seventy  miles;  via  Old  Red  Cloud, 
one  hundred  and  sixty  ;  from  thence  to  Whetstone,  forty  more.  From  Sidney  to  Red 
Cloud  and  Whetstone  you  would  continue  the  same  road  to  the  Niobrara,  one  hun 
dred  miles.  There  they  would  diverge,  the  one  to  Red  Cloud,  twenty  miles;  the 
other  to  Whetstone,  twenty-five  miles.  Thus  it  will  be  seen  that  the  distance  to 
Red  Cloud  is  one-quarter  less,  and  to  Whetstone  more  than  one-third  less,  and  less 
than  half  as  far  as  from  Fort  Randall.  Besides  this  saving  of  land-carriage,  there  is  a 
saving  of  over  one  hundred  miles  by  rail.  The  country  from  Sidney  is  quite  level, 
with  more  water,  grass,  and  fuel,  although  timber  is  scarce  on  all  the  roads;  and,  so 
far  as  I  can  judge,  there  is  less  sand  than  from  Cheyenne  via  Old  Red  Cloud,  the  road 
usually  traveled  by  freighters.  There  is  every  facility  for  building  a  store-house  at 
Sidney  of  sufficient  capacity  for  both  agencies,  where  one  store-keeper  would  suffice. 

I  would  respectfully  recommend  that  the  road  receive  due  consideration,  as  it  would 
prove  a  great  saving  in  distance  and  expense.  The  only  drawback  is  the  crossing  the 
North  Platte.  Yet  the  herders  at  this  point,  Chimney  Rock,  and  those  familiar  with  it, 
claim  that  the  crossing  there  is  as  good  as  at  the  old  Red  Cloud  crossing. 

On  my  arrival  at  the  agency,  the  first  thing  that  attracted  my  attention,  after  exam 
ining  into  the  flour,  was  the  Appleton  contract.  I  found  no  contract  actually  entered 
into,  but  the  basis  for  one  clearly  defined.  Mr.  Appleton  had  submitted  his  proposi 
tion  to  Agent  Saville,  which  the  agent  had  forwarded  to  your  Office,  asking  your 
permission  to  make  a  contract  upon  the  terms  therein  contained,  and  recommending 
the  same  to  your  honor  for  approval,  representing  it  as  the  best  and  most  economical 
arrangement  for  the  Government. 

The  terms  of  Mr.  Appleton  were  :  For  sawing  lumber,  Agent  Saville  furnishing  mill, 
logs,  and  engineer,  $14  per  thousand,  while  the  customary  price  under  such  circum 
stances  is  from  $3  to  $4  ;  for  cutting  and  laying  shingles,  the  agent  furnishing  logs, 
mill,  cut-off  saw,  shingle-machine,  and  engineer,  $10  per  thousand,  while  it  was  worth 
from  $2  to  $'3;  for  building  slaughter-house  alone,  ,$150,  while  both  slaughter-house 
and  slaughter-pen  is  sublet  for  $180.  For  other  items  and  a  more  full  account  of  this 
transaction,  please  see  my  letter  accompanying  the  Appleton  contract. 

The  private  manner  in  which  this  contract  was  let,  the  relationship  of  the  parties, 
the  exorbitant  prices,  the  pains  taken  to  exclude  all  competition,  the  looks,  manners, 
and  prevarication  of  the  parties,  developed  during  the  investigation,  left  me  no  room 
to  doubt  the  nature  and  character  of  the  transaction. 

I  next  pass  to  the  purchase  of  oxen,  cows,  wagons,  &c.,  for  the  use  of  the  Indians. 
In  Agent  Saville's  letter-book  I  found  a  letter  written  to  the  honorable  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  August  24, 1874,  in  which  he  says:  "In  accordance  with  your 
letter  of  approval  of  June  16, 1874,  of  my  requisition  of  April  1,  1874,  I  have  purchased 
of  D.  J.  McCann  twenty  yoke  of  American  oxen,  four  and  five  years  old,  at  $1GO  per 
yoke,  and  twenty  good  Durham  cows  at  $60  per  head,  and  one  Durham  bull  at  $100. 
As  this  is  to  be  a  basis  of  a  stock  of  cattle  to  be  raised  by  the  Indians,  I  have  thought 
it  advisable  to  get  the  best  grade  of  cattle  in  the  market  which  was  not  classed  as 
fancy  stock.  I  have  purchased  these  after  careful  inquiry  as  to  the  price  of  this  class 
of  stock  in  Nebraska,  Iowa,  and  Missouri,  and  I  believe  I  have  got  them  at  as  low  a 
price  as  they  could  be  delivered  at  this  agency.  I  have  purchased  them  in  open  mar 
ket,  without  advertising  for  proposals,  for  the  reason  that  it  was  very  desirable  to  get 
them  to  the  agency  in  time  to  get  in  hay,  and  break  some  laud  for  spring  crops  before 
too  late  in  the  season  to  do  so.  Also,  several  families  are  anxious  to  have  houses.  I 
wish  to  set  them  to  hauling  logs  for  their  houses,  in  order  to  build  thorn  before  cold 
weather  sets  in.  In  my  action  in  this  case  I  respectfully  request  your  approval." 

Upon  reading  this  letter  I  remarked,  "  I  see  you  have  been  buying  some  stock  for  the 
Indians.  Where  are  they?"  He  answered,  "  No,  that  letter  I  put  forth  as  a  feeler. 
They  are  not  yet  purchased."  I  also  called  his  attention  to  a  letter  written  by  F.  H. 
Smith,  secretary  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  dated  September  5,  1874,  in 
which  he  reiterates,  "I  have  the  honor  respectfully  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your 
circular  of  April  10,  1874,  &c.  I  have  purchased  twenty  yoke  of  oxeu,  twenty  cows,  ten 


821 

wagons,  and  six  breaking-plows  for  those  who  have  undertaken  to  work  this  season," 
&c.  I  expressed  my  surprise,  saying,  "You  have  minutely  described  this  stock,  their 
ages,  blood,  quality,  and  price,  and  I  certainly  supposed  you  had  purchased  them."  He 
replied,  "McCann  supposed  he  could  purchase  them  of  a  party  in  Cheyenne,  but  come 
to  rind  out  he  could  not."  I  inquired  if  he  had  not  issued  the  vouchers  for  those  cattle. 
He  said,  "  Yes."  I  asked  him  where  they  were.  He  answered  he  had  them  and  then,  he 
showed  them  me.  Inclosed  is  a  copy.  They  are  dated  August  20,  1874,  for  $6,247,  and 
says  "that  the  account  is  correct  and  just;  the  stock  actually  purchased  were  actually 
necessary  for  the  public  service,  and  the  price  as  low  as  could  be  procured." 

On  my  return  to  Cheyenne,  Mr.  McCanii  informed  me  that  he  had  the  opportunity  to 
make  those  purchases  of  a  party  near  Cheyenne,  but,  thinking  the  price  high,  he  had 
left  it  open,  hoping  to  make  the  purchase  upon  better  terms  elsewhere.  Finding  him 
self  unable  to  do  so,  he  had  concluded  to  take  them.  It  would  seem  to  be  time  enough 
to  say  they  were  purchased  when  they  really  were  ;  to  describe  their  quality  when  seen  ; 
to  state  the  price  when  ascertained  ;  and  to  make,  date,  sign  the  vouchers  when  the 
property  was  received. 

The  Ind'ans  provided  for  at  this  agency,  as  estimated  by  Agent  Saville,  are — 

Ogallallas  proper 7.000 

Minneconjoux,  San  Arcs,  and  Uucpapas 1,600 

Northern  Cheyennes 2,  000 

Northern  Arapahoes 1,  000 

Total 11,500 

The  Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes,  by  act  of  Congress  last  winter,  cannot  be  fed  or  draw 
annuities  unless  they  move  south  to  the  Indian  Territory.  They  do  not  want  to  go. 
They  say  their  people  there  are  at  war  with  the  Government,  and  this  is  their  old  home. 
They  are  willing  to  consolidate  with  the  Sioux,  arid  the  Sioux  are  willing  to  have  them 
do  so.  Can  it  not  be  done  ? 

OVERISSUE   OF   BEEF. 

Beef  is  being  issued,  and  has  been  for  over  three  months  past,  in  larger  quantities 
than  usual  per  head.  Besides  the  overissue  per  capita,  there  is  a  larger  number  than 
was  estimated  for,  rendering  a  deficiency  certain,  unless  some  measures  are  taken  to 
arrest  it. 

CONSOLIDATION. 

The  commission  who  recently  visited  this  and  the  Whetstone  agency  have  returned, 
and  I  understand  will  recommend  the  consolidation  of  the  two.  Most  of  the  members 
of  that  commission  have  consulted  me  in  regard  to  it,  and  asked  my  co-operation. 
These  agencies  are  within  forty  miles  of  each  other,  both  in  the  State  of  Nebraska,  and 
outside  of  their  reservation.  This  reservation  is  large  and  comparatively  valueless. 
Grazing,  to  some  extent,  may  be  carried  on,  but  agricultural  pursuits  of  any  other 
kind  are  out  of  the  question.  I  look  upon  both  of  these  agencies  as  poor-houses  for  the 
feeding  of  pauper  Indians,  and  as  having  no  permanency  in  their  present  location. 
Besides,  being  in  the  State  of  Nebraska,  no  such  population,  either  white  or  Indian, 
can  ever  be  self-sustaining  there.  They  all  belong  to  the  same  family,  and  so  near  each 
other  as  to  be  in  daily  and  hourly  communication.  Everything  that  occurs  at  one 
agency  is  immediately  known  at  the  other.  Every  little  inequality  or  difference  of 
management  at  the  one  is  immediately  discussed  at  the  other,  giving  rise  to  more  or 
less  dissatisfaction.  To-day  Red  Cloud  Indians  are  getting  more  beef  than  Whetstone, 
and  a  greater  inequality  will  be  seen  when  the  annuities  are  distributed,  when  Whet 
stone  will  get  the  larger  share.  Under  one  intelligent  head  these  sources  of  irritation 
would  cease  to  exist,  and  uniformity  of  administration  secured. 

On  the  score  of  economy  there  would  be  considerable  gain.  The  old  buildings  at 
Whetstone,  now  in  process  of  moving,  are  very  poor,  and  would  barely  answer  the 
purposes  of  a  subagency  temporarily,  while  new  and  permanent  buildings  for  a  new 
and  permanent  agency  would  cost  a  large  sum  of  money.  One  store-house  at  Sidney, 
with  one  store-keeper,  would  take  the  place  of  the  two  now  in  use,  viz,  at  Randall  and 
Cheyenne,  together  with  their  two  sets  of  employe's,  and  a  saving  of  distance  by  land 
and  rail  of  perhaps  one  hundred  and  sixty  miles. 

Believing  this  project  has  its  merits,  I  would  respectfully  commend  it  to  your  favor 
able  consideration. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  D.  BEVIER, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 

Hon.  E.  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  ri'axhmylon  D.  ('. 


822 


AGENT  SAVILLE'S  REPLY  TO  WALKER'S  REPORT. 

To  the  honorable  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners : 

In  answer  to  the  charges  preferred  against  me  by  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  under  date  of 
December  6,  or  so  much  thereof  as  I  am  advised  by  your  honorable  body  it  is  your  wish 
I  should  make  answer  to,  I  would  most  respectfully  state  and  represent  as  follows, 
to  wit : 

1st.  To  charge  marked  number  one  I  answer :  That  of  the  flour  received  by  me  as 
United  States  Indian  agent,  all  of  it  was  not  marked  or  branded.  WThat  proportion  I 
cannot  say  with  any  certainty.  Since  I  have  been  agent  I  have  never  been  advised 
what  particular  brands  were  necessary  except  the  inspector's  brand,  and  when  in  Wash 
ington  I  informed  the  commissioners  that  such  brand  was  wanting  on  some  of  the  flour 
delivered  at  this  agency. 

With  reference  to  any  of  the  flour  being  in  single  sacks,  I  am  satisfied  such  was  not 
the  case. 

In  regard  to  the  character  or  quality  of  the  flour,  I  have  to  say,  I  have  never  been 
advised  what  particular  grade  was  required  under  the  contract,  though  the  flour 
received  and  used  by  me  was  sweet,  must  have  been  made  of  good  wheat,  and  was 
sufficiently  good  to  give  entire  satisfaction  for  my  own  and  the  consumption  of  the 
employe's  about  the  agency.  In  support  of  the  foregoing,  I  would  refer  to  B.  F.  Walters, 
William  Stokes,  and  Benjamin  Tibbetts. 

2d.  In  regard  to  charge  number  two  I  can  only  say  I  have  no  means  of  knowing  the 
exact  distances  referred  to  in  such  charge.  There  are  two  roads,  the  shortest  of  which 
I  have  traveled  over,  and  should  estimate  the  distance  by  such  route  from  Cheyenne  to 
Old  Red  Cloud  to  be  from  95  to  100  miles,  and  from  Cheyenne  to  the  New  Red  Cloud 
from  180  to  190  miles.  Though  the  other  is  a  much  longer  road,  it  is  necessary  at  some 
seasons  to  travel  it. 

3d.  In  answer  to  charge  three  I  would  say,  the  same  is  wholly  untrue  ;  that  I  am 
informed,  and  believe  the  same  to  be  true,  that  the  clerk  wlio  receives  the  stores  never 
told  Mr.  Samuel  Walker  or  other  party  that  nothing  is  weighed  or  receipted  from  the 
freight  contractor,  nor  is  it  true  that  such  is  the  case;  everything  so  received  is 
weighed  on  delivery.  I  never  said  I  would  not  weigh,  nor  did  the  party  named  by  Mr. 
Walker  tell  him  that  I  made  such  a  remark.  In  support  of  this,  I  suggest  the  names 
of  my  receiving-clerks,  B.  F.  Walters,  Benjamin  Tibbetts,  and  Joseph  Bissouette. 

4th.  In  answer  to  charge  four  I  would  say,  the  same  is  wholly  untrue,  and  to  nega 
tive  the  same  I  refer  to  my  books  ;  the  testimony  of  J.  H.  Bosler,  to  disprove  that  he 
ever  made  sijch  statement  as  is  by  Mr.  Walker  claimed  to  have  been  made  ;  also  evi 
dence  of  George  M.  Bosler. 

5th.  Answering  charge  five  I  say,  it  is  true  that  until  November  7  the  beeves  were 
received  by  an  average  weight,  as  up  to  that  date  it  was  the  only  way  I  had  of  ascer 
taining  the  weight  of  such  beeves,  but  it  is  wholly  untrue  that  the  weight  of  the  cattle 
received  by  me  was  ascertained  by  weighing  some  of  the  largest  cattle;  but  the  truth 
is  that  a  fair  and  just  average  of  cattle  was  selected  for  the  purpose  of  ascertaining  the 
weight  of  the  number  received. 

This  averaging  was  the  practice  until  the  scales  were  put  up,  which  was  done  as  soon 
as  practicable.  In  fact,  I  urged  forward  the  putting  up  of  the  large  scales  with  all  dis 
patch.  In  support  of  the  foregoing,  please  call  the  butchers,  Benjamin  Tibbetts,  B.  F. 
Walters,  and  Joseph  Bissonette. 

6th.  lu  answer  to  charge  six  I  would  say.  it  is  true  the  issues  of  supplies  are  made 
to  chiefs  and  headmen  ;  it  is  also  true  that  as  to  some  articles  the  issues  were  made 
with  reference  to  the  auiouut  on  hand.  The  reason  of  tbis  was  that  since  October  I 
have  never  had  a  supply  of  articles  ou  hand  sufficient  to  make  a  full  issue  of  all ;  and 
to  satisfy  the  Indians  for  such  deficiency  1  have  been  compelled  to  be  more  liberal  in 
my  issues  of  beef,  of  which  I  could  command  a  supply  at  all  times  ;  nor  is  it  true  that 
no  record  is  kept  of  what  is  issued,  and  in  regard  to  the  foregoing  I  would  refer  to  B. 
F.  Walters,  Joseph  Bissouette,  Thomas  Monohau,aud  uiy  monthly  reports  for  Septem 
ber  and  October. 

7th.  In  answer  to  charge,  or  rather  argument,  seven,  it  is  difficult  to  respond,  as  no 
specific  charge  is  made,  and  my  answer  to  charge  six  disposes  of  the  facts  upon  which 
the  conclusions  in  number  seven  are  based,  though  it  may  be  proper  for  me  to  state  that 
all  employes  should  be,  and  are,  fed  from  tTie  supplies,  as  is  allowed,  and  such 
rations  accounted  for.  In  support  of  this,  I  refer  to  the  records  of  the  agency,  my 
clerk,  and  many  others. 

8th.  In  answer  to  charge  eight,  1  deny  that  no  records  are  kept  of  tho  number  of 
beeves  issued;  full  and  complete  records  are  kept  of  all  issues  ;  in  evidence  of  which,  I 
refer  to  the  books  of  the  agency  and  the  testimony  of  my  clerk,  B.  F.  Walters. 

9th.  In  answer  to  charge  nine  I  would  s;iy,  that  tha  papers  of  the  agency  do  not 
show  that  there  was  on  tho  1st  of  October  ou  hand  17,914  pounds  of  boef,  but  did  show 
on  hand  11,OOS  pounds ;  that  during  that  mouth  there  were  received  on  the  first  day  of 


823 

October  647  head,  averaging  1,063  pounds  each ;  and  on  the  15th  October  633  head, 
averaging  1,043  pounds  each.  That  on  the  first  day  of  October  I  did  not  have  on  hand 
60  head  of  beeves,  but  only  11,  for  which  receipts  were  given,  which  11,  added  to  1,280, 
would  amount  to  1,291,  of  which  I  issued  1,212  head  during  the  month  of  October, 
leaving  79  head,  which  I  had  on  hand  on  the  31st  day  of  October,  less  67  lost  and  killed 
bv  Indians  out  of  my  herd  without  authority,  which  loss  was  duly  reported  to  the  De 
partment  by  me.  My  receipts  were  never  false  or  fraudulent.  I  did  receive  the  num 
ber  of  beeves  in  October  as  above  stated.  There  was  an  issue  made  on  the  1st  day  of 
October,  and  the  herd  of  the  contractor  never,  to  my  knowledge,  stampeded.  No  issues 
were  omitted  in  October,  as  there  were  four  issues  during  that  month,  to  wit,  on  the 
1st,  8th,  21st,  and  23d  ;  only  that  the  issue  of  the  15th  was  postponed  until  the  21st, 
my  reasons  for  which  postponement  appear  in  my  report  for  that  month,  to  which  I 
respectfully  refer. 

In  regard  to  the  stampede  of  cattle,  I  shall  be  pleased  to  explain:  On  the  1st  of 
October  there  were  issued  267  head,  and  on  the  8th  there  were  issued  380  head ; 
after  this  last  issue  a  part  of  the  agency-herd  stampeded,  and  I  then  decided  not  to 
keep  an  agency-herd,  but  requested  Mr.  Bosler  to  retain  the  cattle  in  his  custody 
until  I  needed  them  for  issuing,  which  he  kindly  consented  to  do,  and  also  assisted 
me  in  getting  up  the  cattle  which  .had  stampeded.  This  Mr.  Bosler  was  not  com 
pelled  to  do,  as  his  contract  permitted  him  to  make  all  his  deliveries  for  a  month  in 
two  installments.  I  directed  the  chief  herder  to  turn  over  to  Mr.  Hosier's  herd  all  the 
cattle  recovered,  and  in  compliance  with  this  order  the  herder  did  turn  over  to  Mr.  Bos- 
ler's  herd  242  head,  and  Mr.  Bosler  collected  355  head,  making  in  all  597  head,  for  which 
Mr.  Bosler  acknowledged  the  receipt  of,  and  accounted  to  me  for  the  same.  There 
were  no  cattle  issued  on  the  18th,  but  on  the  21st  of  October  there  were  issued  186 
head,  and  on  the  23d  of  October  399  head.  The  23d  was  the  regular  issue-day,  and  the 
issue  was  then  made  for  that  reason,  and  not  on  the  solicitation  of  anyone.  After  this 
I  decided  to  make  the  issue  every  ten  instead  of,  as  formerly,  every  seven  days,  with 
a  view  of  diminishing  the  gross  amount  of  the  issue,  if  possible ;  hence  the  next  issue 
was  deferred  until  the  8th  of  November,  when  390  head  were  issued,  averaging  993 
pounds  each,  all  of  which  were  weighed ;  and  on  the  18th  of  November  410  beeves 
were  issued,  averaging  967  pounds,  which,  though  a  fine  herd,  were  not  so  large  or  so 
heavy  as  many  former  issues. 

As  to  what  Mr.  George  M.  Bosler  told  Mr.  Walker,  I  know  nothing.  I  did  give  re 
ceipts  dated  on  the  1st  of  October  for  647  head,  and  the  receipt  dated  15th  of  October 
for  633  head,  all  of  which  cattle  were  weighed  as  certified  to,  and  averaged  the  full 
amount  allowed.  My  custom  was,  up  to  the  middle  of  October,  to  send  an  order  to 
the  contractor  for  a  certain  number  of  cattle.  When  the  order  was  filled  and  the  cat 
tle  turned  over  to  my  herder,  he  so  reported  to  me ;  then  I  sent  an  order  to  my  herder 
for  enough  to  supply  an  issue,  when  the  cattle  were  brought,  to  the  corral,  and  some 
times  10  and  sometimes  20  were  selected  as  an  average,  killed,  and  weighed.  This  was 
done  out  of  every  lot  received  until  I  got  my  scale  set  up,  since  when  all  have  been 
weighed. 

10th.  In  answer  to  charge  ten,  I  deny  that  receipts  were  given  for  any  cattle  not 
delivered  to  the  agency  by  the  contractor,  or  for  cattle  which  I  never  saw,  unless  at 
some  time  when  I  was  absent  from  the  agency.  I  further  state  that  there  is  a  record 
of  all  cattle  received  during  the  month  of  October,  as  well  as  every  other  month.  On 
this  charge  I  would  refer  to  the  records  and  the  clerk,  B.  F.  Walters. 

llth.  In  answer  to  charge  eleven,  I  deny  each  averment  in  the  same,  and  further 
answer  that  the  lot  of  cattle  weighed  by  Mr.  Appleton  actually  weighed  993  pounds  on 
the  scales,  and  that  nothing  was  allowed  the  contractor  for  overdriving.  As  evidence 
on  this  point,  I  refer  to  the  records  and  George  M.  Bosler. 

12th.  In  answer  to  charge  twelve,  I  would  say,  that  it  has  always  been  impossible  for 
me  to  make  any  personal  estimate  of  the  number  of  lodges,  though  I  have  on  several 
occasions  attempted  to  count  them,  but  the  Indians  were  so  much  opposed  to  any  pro 
ceeding  of  the  kind,  that  my  life  was  endangered  in  the  attempt.  I  was  therefore 
compelled  to  rely  upon  the  best  information  I  could  gather  in  regard  to  the  matter, 
and  almost  always  allowed  a  much  less  amount  than  was  returned  by  the  Indians  (In 
regard  to  this,  I  would  refer  to  Joseph  Bissonette,  T.  W.  Reed,  and  every  other  man  on 
the  agency,  without  respect  to  age  or  color.  Also,  to  my  report  for  the  month  of  Octo 
ber,  and  special  report.) 

13th.  In  answer  to  charge  thirteen,  I  can  simply  say,  no  issues  were  omitted  in  the 
month  of  October.  There  were  four  issues  in  that  mouth.  (In  regard  to  this,  see 
records;  also,  call  the  clerk,  B.  F.  Walters.) 

14th.  In  answer  to  charge  fourteen,  I  would  say,  I  kept  the  Department  fully  ad 
vised  of  all  my  proceedings,  and  particularly  that  I  was  compelled  to  make  overissues 
of  beef,  and  the  reasons  why,  viz,  that  I  was  short  of  other  rations,  and  the  hostile 
attitude  of  the  Indians.  (See  my  report.) 

15th.  In  answer  to  charge  fifteen,  I  would  say,  that  I  did  purchase  ten  horses ;  that  I 
paid  $70  apiece  for  them  ;  and  in  regard  to  the  matter  I  make  the  following  explana- 


824 

tiou.  The  horses  were  needed  ;  the  Cornmissiouer  authorized  the  purchase  of  them.  I 
went  into  the  market  and  attempted  to  buy,  and  found  but  one  man  I  could  purchase 
from,  and  I  bought  of  him.  The  price  I  paid  was  reasonable,  and  as  low  as  I  could  buy. 
After  the  purchase,  I  advised  the  Commissioner  of  what  I  had  done  and  he  approved 
the  act,  as  I  needed  the  ambulance  mules  to  draw  lumber,  &c.,  and  for  a  while  used 
four  of  such  horses  on  the  ambulance  in  place  of  the  mules.  (In  regard  to  this  see  my 
correspondence  with  the  Commissioner  and  call  Jos.  Kamer.) 

16th.  In  answer  to  charge  sixteen,  I  would  say,  when  I  came  to  the  agency  I  found 
Edward  McEvena  acting  as  clerk,  and,  being  advised  that  he  was  a  good  one,  I  requested 
him  to  remain  in  that  capacity,  but  he  informed  me  that  he  could  not,  and  should  be 
compelled  to  leave ;  whereupon  I  telegraphed  to  Frank  D.  Appleton.  at  Sioux  City, 
Iowa,  that  I  would  give  him  the  situation  if  he  would  come  out  immediately;  he 
answered  by  telegraph  that  he  would  be  here  on  the  17th  of  August,  wheu  I  placed  his 
name  on  the  pay-rolls.  After  waiting  until  that  time,  and  needing  a  clerk,  I  employed 
one  temporarily,  daily  expecting  Mr.  Appleton.  After  some  weeks,  the  mails  being 
much  delayed,  I  received  a  letter  informing  me  that  the  day  before  he  was  to  start  for 
the  agency  he  had  broken  his  leg,  but  would  come  as  soon  as  he  could  travel;  as  so 
long  a  time  had  elapsed  since  the  date  of  the  letter  and  its  receipt,  I  concluded  he  must 
then  be  on  the  road,  so  I  continued  the  temporary  incumbeut  in  the  position  until 
Appleton  arrived,  when  he  assumed  the  position,  and  paid  the  man  who  had  acted  for 
him  and  in  his  place.  (In  regard  to  this  I  refer  to  Otis  W.  Johnson.) 

17th.  In  answer  to  charge  seventeen,  I  wonld  say,  I  did  deliver  to  Joseph  Bisscnette 
two  half-bolts  of  cloth,  one  red  and  the  other  blue.  I  delivered  this  cloth  to  him  to 
be  distributed  among  the  Indians  on  occasions  of  death,  it  being  a  custom  of  theirs 
that  they  must  have  something  of  the  kind  to  modify  their  grief  and  make  their 
hearts  glad.  Though  a  costume  of  this  color  may  appear  somewhat  unusual  as  a 
badge  of  mourning,  I  am  informed  the  cloth  was  disposed  of  as  directed.  (In  regard 
to  this  I  would  refer  to  Joseph  Bissonette.) 

The  foregoing  is  most  respectfully  submitted  to  the  consideration  of  your  honorable 
body  by 

Your  most  obedient  servant, 

J.  J.  SAVILLE, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  DAKOTA  TKHIUTOUY, 

March  17,  1874. 


AGENT  HOWARD'S  REPLY  TO  WALKER'S  REPORT. 

WHETSTONE  AGENCY,  DAKOTA  TERRITORY, 

March  22,  1874. 
To  the  Hon.  BOARD  OF  INDIAN  COMMISSIONERS  : 

In  answer  to  the  charges  preferred  against  me  by  Mr.  Samuel  Walker,  under  date  of 
December  8,  1873,  or  so  much  of  such  charges  as  I  am  advised  it  is  the  wish  of  your 
honorable  body  I  should  make  answer  unto,  I  would  most  respectfully  answer  and 
represent  as  follows,  to  wit : 

1.  In  answer  to  charge  marked  one,  I  would  say  that  the  issues  are  calculated  from 
the  number  of  lodges,  and  an  amount  issued  based  on  such  calculations,  and  a  full 
record  is  kept  of  this  amount  so  actually  issued  ;  and  the  clerk  never,  as  I  am  informed 
and  verily  believe,  told  any  one  that  the  stated  number  for  which  an  issue  was  made 
did  not  equal  the  actual  number.     All  the  issues   calculated  were,  fully  expended, 
though  the  number  of  lodges  given  in,  because  believed  to  be  excessive,  was  often  cut 
down,  but  in  such  case  a  record  was  only  made  of  the  amount  of  the  issue  actually 
made.     (See  records;  call  Clerk  E.  Willard  ajid  Dominick  Bray.) 

2.  In  answer  to  charge  number  two,  I  would  say  I  never  gave  or  issued  anything  to 
supply  more  than  the  quantity  actually  needed,  and  neither  beef  nor  anything  else  was 
charged  in  excess  of  what  was  actually  expended.     (See  records;  call  Willard  and 

3."  In  answer  to  charge  three,  I  would  say  I  did  not  have  on  hand  the  30th  day  of 
September  950  head  of  beeves,  but  775  head ;  I  did  receive  in  October  1,056  head, 
making  a  total  of  1,831  head  ;  of  this  number  I  expended  in  October  883  head,  in  No 
vember  749  head  ;  there  was  lost  and  stolen  during  this  quarter  66  head,  and  after  the 
issue  on  the  10th  of  November  I  bad  on  hand  133  head.  The  work-cattle  were  not 
among  the  beeves,  except  one,  which  was  pointed  out  to  Mr.  Walker  by  the  herder  as 
one  of  the  work-cattle.  (See  record;  Willard,  John  Atkinson,  Simon  Luudermau, 
and  John  Whalen.) 

4.  In  answer  to  charge  four,  I  would  say  that  it  is  true  the  weight  of  the  cattle,  up 
to  November,  was  determined  by  selecting  from  10  to  20  as  an  average;  that  1  often 


825 

participated  in  the  selecting;  that  when  this  was  done  there  were  no  scales,  but  scales 
were  put  up  as  soon  as  practicable,  and  then  all  the  cattle  were  weighed.  The  end-gate 
of  a  wagon  was  never  counted  as  a  part  of  the  weight  of  the  beeves,  nor  was  one-half 
cut  or  weighed,  as  stated.  I  either  attended  to  the  weighing  in  person  or  had  some 
reliable  person  to  act  for  me  in  that  capacity.  (Call  C.  Benard  and  J.  Atkinson  ) 

5.  In  answer  to  charge  five,  I  say  the  work-cattle  were  not  introduced  into  the  herd, 
and  the  acting  agent  did  not  say  what  is  claimed  in  regard  to  the  matter.     (Call  E. 
Willard,  J.  Atkinson,  and  S.  Lunderman.) 

6.  In  answer  to  charge  six,  I  would  say  that  the  inferences  in  the  same,  drawn  from 
the  statements  of  acting  agent  and  George  M.  Bosler,  are  wholly  without  foundation ; 
that  the  acting  agent  told  Mr.  Walker  that  he  should  try  and  avoid  an  issue  of  beeves 
on  the  20th  of  November.     (Call  E.  Willard,  George  M.  Bosler,  and  George  H.  Jewett.) 

7.  In  answer  to  charge  7,  I  would  say :  October  1,  I  issued  to  1,076  lodges,  and  that 
on  the  15th  of  November  there  was  no  issue  at  all. 

The  estimate  of  number  of  Indians  to  whom  issues  should  be  made  was  based  upon 
the  best  information  I  could  gain.  The  clerk  at  the  agency  did  not  tell  Mr.  Walker 
that  he  calculated  the  number  present  to  be  about  as  many  more  as  properly  belonged 
to  the  agency.  There  have  been  far  more  than  720  lodges  present  at  the  agency.  I 
have  always  endeavored  to  cut  down  the  amount  of  issues  demanded.  (Call  E.  Wil 
lard,  Louis  Bordeaux,  and  see  records.) 

8.  In  answer  to  charge  eight,  I  would  say  that  it  was  necessary  there  should  be  an 
agent  at  Fort  Randall  to  receive  and  care  for  supplies  at  that  point.     C.  Ferris  acted 
as  such  agent  there,  and  when  so  acting  as  receiving  agent  at  Fort  Randall  he  was  the 
junior  member  of  the  firm  of  Pratt  &  Ferris.     Neither  member  of  the  firm  was  at  Whet 
stone  at  all.     I  was  a  stranger  in  the  country  and  acquainted  with  Mr.  Ferris.     I  knew 
of  no  other  person  to  appoint  at  Fort  Randall  except  Ferris.     (Call  E.  Willard.) 

9.  In  answer  to  charge  nine,  I  would  say  that,  in  regard  to  the  oats,  I  met  the  Com 
missioner  of  Indian  Affairs  in  Sioux  City,  and  he  asked  me  if  I  could  not  buy  the  oats. 
I  replied  that  I  thought  I  could,  and  immediately  applied  to  Mr.  Charles  and  Mr.  Pratt 
to  buy  the  oats  as  low  as  they  could.     Mr.  Pratt  delivered  the  oats,  and  I  had  no  in 
formation  upon  which  I  could  decide  that  the  price  was  unreasonable.     I  do  not  believe 
any  lots  were  delivered  here  at  the  price  stated  by  Mr.  Walker.     (Call  E.  W.  Raymond 
and  George  H.  Jewett.) 

10.  In  answer  to  charge  ten,  I  would  say,  respectfully,  that  I  never  at  any  time  em 
ployed  more  herders  than  were  necessary,  and  even  with  the  number  I  had  there  was 
a  great  deal  of  trouble  in  protecting  the  cattle.     As  soon  as  I  ceased  to  keep  an  agency- 
herd  the  herders  were  discharged.     (Call  Atkinson,  Lunderman,  and  C.  Beuard.) 

11.  In  answer  to  charge  eleven,  I  would  say  that  when  I  first  took  charge  of  the 
agency  I  cut  the  prices  all  down  to  $40.     The  men  had  been  receiving  $50  and  $60  per 
month  before.     After  I  cut  the  prices  down  the  men  refused  to  work  at  that  price, 
and,  as  I  could  not  supply  their  places,  I  was  compelled  to  put  them  up  to  $50.     I  have 
but  one  butcher,  C.  Benard,  and  he  has  an  assistant,  a  man  who  is  only  paid  $30  per 
month.     It  would  be  out  of  the  question  to  dispense  with  the  services  of  C.  Benard, 
unless  I  could  do  Avithout  a  butcher.     (Call  E.  Willard  and  any  employe's.) 

12.  In  answer  to  charge  twelve,  I  would  say  that  the  superintendent,  E.  W.  Ray 
mond,  has  never  been  away  from  the  agency  or  worked  a  day  for  himself  during  all 
the  time  he  has  been  in  my  employment,  and  I  regard  him  as  one  of  the  most  reliable 
and  necessary  men  on  the  agency.     He  may  own  some  teams  that  are  employed  by 
other  parties,  but  his  ownership  of  such  teams  never  in  any  manner  prevents  him  from 
faithfully  discharging  all  his  duties  as  superintendent.     (Call  Raymond,  D.  Bray,  E. 
Willard,  and  Louis  Bordeaux.) 

13.  In  regard  to  charge  thirteen,  I  wonld  say  that  at  the  time  of  Mr.  Walker's  visit 
to  this  agency  two  of  the  horses  referred  to  by  him  were  at  the  herd-camp,  and  the 
other  was  at  Fort  Randall  for  the  use  of  the  herders  there,  and  the  horses  are  still  in 
my  possession.     (In  support  of  this  call  J.  Atkinson  and  Paul  Dorion.) 

The  foregoing  is  most  respectfully  submitted  to  the  attention  of  your  honorable  body. 
Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  A.  HOWARD, 
United  States  Indian  Agent. 
Dated  at  Whetstone  agency  this  22d  day  of  March,  1874. 

53  I  F 


826 


KEMBLE  AND  ALVORD'S  REPORT. 

RED  CLOUD  AGENCY,  WYOMING  TERRITORY, 

Jun  el6,1873. 

SIR  :  Referring  to  your  communication  of  the  17th  of  May,  reciting  the  appointment 
of  a  special  commission,  composed  of  Messrs.  Brunot,  Kemble,  and  Alvord,  for  specific 
purposes,  and  giving  instructions  as  to  the  performance  of  certain  duties  by  the  second 
and  junior  members  of  the  commission  in  advance  of  its  principal  work,  the  under 
signed  respectfully  submit  this  partial  report : 

I.  As  to  the  preparation  for  a  general  conference  at  this  point  for  the  main  objects  of 
the  commission  and  the  determination  in  advance  of  the  temper  of  the  Sioux  Indians 
within  reach  ;  this  duty  was  performed  by  Mr.  Kemble  prior  to  the  arrival  of  his  asso 
ciate,  and  a  preliminary  report  thereon  rendered  by  him  from  this  place,  dated  June  2, 
1873. 

II.  An  engagement  was  made  by  telegraph,  through  General  Stanley  at  Fort  Sully, for 
the  assistance  of  the  Rev.  Samuel  D.  Hinman    as   interpreter,  but  that  gentleman  has 
not  yet  joined  the  commissioners,  nor  has  anything  been  lately  heard  from  him. 

III.  The  chiefs  and  headmen  of  the  Northern   Cheyennes  and  Arapahoes,  now  at 
tached  to  this  agency,  are  to  be  met  in  council  by  the  undersigned  to-morrow,  to  de 
termine  the  personnel  of  their  delegation  to  Washington,  and  the  result  will  be  made  the 
subject  of  a  special  report  to  your  Office. 

IV.  The  only  other  matter  embraced  in  the  instructions  referred  to  relates  to  certain 
complaints  about  the  beef-issues  at  the  Santee  and  Whetstone  agencies,  as  shown  by 
certain  papers  on  the  subject  accompanying  those  instructions. 

These  papers  did  not  reach  Mr.  Kemble  until  his  arrival  at  Cheyenne,  Wyo.,  so  that 
he  was  unable  to  confer  with  Superintendent  White  in  this  connection, but  Mr.  Alvord 
stopped  at  Omaha  for  that  purpose,  and  upon  such  information  as  he  obtained  from 
Superintendent  White,  the  documentary  evidence  in  his  office,  and  from  disinterested 
parties  at  that  place,  satisfied  himself  fully  that  there  was  no  just  ground  for  complaint 
as  to  beef-issues  at  the  Sautee  agency  or  any  other  point  within  the  Northern  Superin 
tend  ency. 

Messrs.  Kemble  and  Alvord  together  visited  the  Whetstone  agency  at  its  new  loca 
tion  during  the  week  ending  June  14,  1873.  (This  Red  Cloud  agency  is  on  the  north 
bank  of  the  North  Platte  River,  about  five  miles  west  from  the  point  where  the  bound 
ary-line  between  Wyoming  and  Nebraska  crosses  that  stream.  Your  commissioners 
left  this  place  Monday,  June  8,  and,  traveling  an  estimated  distance  of  one  hundred 
and  thirty  miles  by  the  road  (about  one  hundred  miles  air-line)  in  a  general  northeast 
erly  direction,  arrived  at  the  new  Whetsoue  agency  in  the  night  of  the  following  day. 
The  latter,  from  the  best  maps  and  information  obtained,  is  judged  by  them  to  be  at 
or  very  near  the  point  where  the  northern  boundary  of  Nebraska  crosses  the  White 
River,  and  situated  upon  its  southeast  bank.  Returning,  the  commissioners  left  that 
vicinity  on  Friday  morning,  June  13,  and  reached  this  place  on  the  evening  of  the  suc 
ceeding  day.) 

With  reference  to  the  specific  charges  as  to  beef -issues  at  this  Whetstone  agency, 
no  report  can  be  now  rendered,  chiefly  because  the  late  agent,  together  with  his  only 
clerical  assistant,  succeeded  in  leaving  the  place  just  prior  to  the  visit  of  the  commis 
sioners,  removing  all  documentary  evidence  as  to  the  business  transactions  at  that 
agency  prior  to  the  present  month,  and  leaving  a  class  of  employds  so  unprincipled 
in  character  and  evidently  so  interested  themselves  in  the  late  operations  there  that 
no  reliability  could  be  placed  upon  any  statements  made  by  them. 

In  general  terms,  however,  your  commissioners  express  their  opinion  that  the  indefi 
nite  charges  of  irregularity  in  the  Indian  service  in  this  region,  and  especially  the  "  leak 
age  in  beef"  referred  to  by  Mr.  Welsh,  result  from  the  state  of  affairs  at  the  Whetstone 
agency.  The  quantity  of  beef  actually  received  by  the  Whetstone  agent  during  the 
past  year  was  unquestionably  greatly  less  than  that  receipted  for  to  the  contractor,  the 
amount  really  delivered  to  the  Indians  far  less  than  appears  upon  the  provision-returns, 
and  the  Indians  reported  thereon  as  receiving  subsistence  much  in  excess  of  the  true 
number. 

In  brief,  while  unable,  for  want  of  specific  data,  to  make  a  detailed  report  on  the 
points  specially  referred  to  them,  your  commissioners  found  such  a  state  of  irregularity, 
confusion,  and  corruption  at  this  agency — the  result  of  the  management  of  the  late 
agent — that  they  recommend  a  special  investigation  of  its  affairs,  covering  his  whole 
term,  and  the  suspension  of  his  accounts,  with  all  outstanding  vouchers  and  indebted 
ness  certified  by  him,  until  such  investigation  can  be  had. 

During  the  brief  visit  of  your  commissioners  at  this  place  they  searched  diligently 
for  information  on  the  late  operations  there,  and  have  in  possession  many  facts  not 
called  for  by  their  instructions,  but  which  are  at  the  disposal  of  your  Office,  either  in 


827 

the  form  of  notes  or  as  a  special  report.  They  are  also  prepared  to  offer  suggestions  on 
various  poiuts  relating  to  the  management  of  both  these  agencies  visited  by  them,  as 
the  result  of  their  observations  here. 

V.  It  is  believed  expedient  to  mention  here  that 'your  commissioners  found  residing 
upon  the  reservation,  in  the  immediate  vicinity  of  the  agency,  as  now  located,  sub 
sisted  therefrom,  in  many  ways  lately  subsidized  by  the  agent,  and  living  generally  in 
concubinage  with  the  Indian  women,  about  eighty  white  men.     Seventy  of  these  were 
met  in  person,  and  a  brief  statement  of  some  facts  in  relation  to  them,  as  given  by 
themselves,  is  appended,  (A.)     Here  is  a  band  of  men,  plainly  of  the  most  undesirable 
class,  with  a  common  self-interest,  certain  to  be  a  constant  source  of  trouble  to  the 
agent,  and  to  retard  the  progress  of  the  Indians  so  long  as  they  remain  among  them. 
Half  of  the  eighty  claim  to  have  rights  of  residence,  &c.,  as  "legally  incorporated" 
with  the  Sioux,  and  recognized  by  the  treaty  of  1868,  while  most  of  the  remainder  hold 
that  they  are  entitled  to  equal  privileges  by  reason  of"  marriage"  (cohabitation)  with 
Dakota  women.     It  is  recommended  that  this  important  subject  receive  the  imme 
diate  attention  of  the  Department. 

VI.  The  present  agent  for  the   Upper  Ernie's,  who  entered  upon  his  duties  at  the 
Whetstone  agency  on  the  1st  instant,  called  the  attention  of  your  commissioners  to 
telegraphic  instructions  received  by  him,  directing  the  building  of  the  new  agency  by 
employe's,  upon  plans  to  be  determined  upon  consultation  with  the  special  commis 
sioners  when  there.     Accordingly,  he  was  recommended  to  construct  the  buildings 
described  in  the  annexed  schedule,  (B,)  arranged  in  two  hollow  squares,  or  inclosed 
courts,  placed  en  echelon,  a  plan  thereof  being  left  with  the  agent.     This  recommenda 
tion  was  made  without  detailed  specifications,  bills  of  lumber,  or  estimates  of  cost,  and 
having  solely  in  view  the  apparent  immediate  wants  of  the  agency,  regardless  of  the 
question  of  its  permanent  location,  which  still  seems  to  demand  further  consideration. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servants. 

EDWARD  C.  KEMBLE. 
HENRY  E.  ALVORD, 

Special  Commissioners. 
Hon.  COMMISSIONER  or  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Department  of  the  Interior,  Washington. 


APPENDIX  A. 

White  men  at  or  near  the  Whetstone  agency:  Number,  80.  Ages:  From  20  to  65 
years.  Nativity  :  England,  Ireland,  Sweden,  France,  Prussia,  Mexico,  Canada,  and  a 
majority  of  the  United  States. 

Legally  married  to  Dakota  women 10 

Living  with  Indian  women 45 

55 

Children  of  these  (55)  white  men — Indian  mothers 157 

Ages  of  same  :  One  month  to  twenty-six  years.     (Sixteen  of  the  157  are  young  men.) 
Length  of  residence  of  white  men  among  these  Indians: 

From  2  months  to  5  years 40 

From  5  years  to  40  years 40 

80 
Number  claiming  "  treaty  rights,"  40. 

Men  of  white  fathers  (dead  or  absent)  and  Indian  mothers  now  on  same  reservation 
(not  including  the  16  noted  above) :  Number,  24  ;  ages,  16  to  2o  years. 


APPENDIX  B. 

Buildings  recommended   by  Messrs.  Kenible  and  Alvord,  special  commissioners,  to    be  con 
structed  by  Agent  Howard  at  (new)  Whetstone  agency,  as  soon  as  permanently  located. 

1.  For  agency-office,  clerk's  room,  council-hall,  and  dispensary,  100  feet  long  by  25 
feet  wide,  and  10  feet  high,  (side  walls.) 

2.  Store-house,  100  feet  long,  22  feet  wide,  and  12  feet  high,  clear. 

3.  Another.     Same. 

4.  For  residence  of  agent  and  physician,  double  building,  40  feet  by  40  feet,  main  part 
one  and  one-half  stories  high,  giving  two  rooms  and  kitchen  to  each  on  lower  floor  ; 
space  for  two  rooms  above. 


828 

5.  Residence  for  farmer  and  teachers,  double  building,  40  feet  by  30  feet,  one  story; 
two  rooms  and  kitchen,  each  tenement. 

6.  A  like  building  for  engineer  and  miller. 

7.  For  butcher  and  beef-issues,  ice-room,  tool-room,  and  shops,  100  feet  long  by  20  feet 
wide,  and  10  feet  clear. 

8.  For  employes'  quarters,  mess-room,  and  kitchen,  80  feet  long  by  20  feet  wide,  and 
10  feet  high,  clear. 

9.  Sufficient  cheap  stabling,  according  to  judgment  of  agent. 

10.  Shed-room,   open,  ample    for  wagon,  implements,  and  temporary  storage  when 
needed,  in  judgment  of  agent. 

Miscellaneous. — Two  wells,  hay-scale  and  shed,  stockading  and  gates. 

Material.— Logs,  generally  pine,  two  sides  hewed  or  slab-sawed,  for  main  walls; 
sawed  pine  (native)  lumber  for  roof  and  floor,  framing,  and  all  finishing,  where  practi 
cable  ;  doors,  sash,  some  finishing  and  flooring,  of  purchased  dry  pine  ;  roofs,  native 
pine  shingles,  except  for  stables  and  sheds. 

NOTE. — Ample  room  provided  in  iuclosures  for  additional  building,  if  needed. 

H.  E.  A. 


ADDITIONAL  NOTES  TO  ABOVE  REPORT. 
Henry  C.  Alvord  to  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 

LEWENSVILLE  P.  O.,  VA.,  July  22,  1873. 

SIR  :  Herewith  I  transmit  two  pages  of  notes  relating  to  the  affairs  at  the  Whet 
stone  agency,  which  should  be  sent  to  Inspector  Kemble  or  such  other  person  as  may 
have  received  from  him  the  "Notes  and  memoranda"  prepared  by  Messrs.  Kemble  and 
Alvord  after  their  late  visit  as  special  commissioners  to  the  Sioux. 

Said  papers  were  in  the  hands  of  Colonel  Kemble,  the  last  I  knew  of  them  ;  but  I 
have  an  impression  that  he  has  recently  been  called  upon  to  forward  them  either  to 
the  Indian  Office  or  to  an  officer  charged  with  a  special  investigation  of  Whetstone 
agency  "  irregularities." 

Yours,  verv  respectfully, 

HENRY  E.  ALVORD, 
Late  Special  Commissioner,  $c. 
Hon.  COMMISSIONER  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  1).  C. 


Additional  notes  of  Whetstone  agency,  gathered  from  papers  on  file  at  Indian  Office,  Wash 
ington,  July  1  and  2, 1873,  by  Henry  E.  Alvord,  Special  Commissioner. 

Money. — First  quarter  1872.  Risley  received  from  Washburn,  February  27,  1872, 
$1,543.18.  Washlmrn's  unpaid  roll,  January  1  to  February  27,  paid  by  Risley,  $8,830.67. 
Risley's  roll,  part  first  quarter,  1872,  $1,474.24.  (Risley's  total  disbursements  first  quar 
ter,  $12,000.) 

Second  quarter,  1872.  Roll,  $4,372.34.  Total  disbursed,  $6,803.89.  Balance  June  30, 
$1,921.23. 

NOTE. — Who  is  David  R.  Rogers,  laborer  ?  Why  ten  herders  this  quarter  ?  See 
voucher  3. 

Third  quarter,  1872.  Roll,  $6,555.28.  Total  disbursed,  $8,798.01.  Balance  September 
30,  $22, 387.53.  (!) 

NOTE. — D.  R.  Rogers  again.    Too  many  laborers  and  herders.     Excessive  escort  paid. 

Fourth  quarter,  1872.  Roll,  $8,021.00.  Total  disbursed,  $20,939.02.  Balance  Decem 
ber  31, 1872,  $1,448.51. 

NOTE. — Inquire  as  to  vouchers  1  to  5.  No.  11,  (hauling  rations  from  storehouse  to 
Indian  lodges  by  hired  teams,  $360.)  No.  18,  D.  R.  Rogers  and  other  laborers  ?  Vouch 
ers  22  to  47  cover  nearly  $10,000  paid  out  for  use  of  teams  of  the  "  men  of  the  country," 
for  sundry  purposes,  at  per-diem  rates. 

THE  GRAVES  TRANSPORTATION  CONTRACT.— Executed  November  5, 1872.  Forwarded 
to  Indian  Office,  Washington,  December  24,  1872.  Returned  disapproved,  January  15, 
1872.  Risley  wrote  in  defense  at  Washington,  February  20,  1873,  (and  stated  move 
began  December  28,  1872.)  Office  reply,  unfavorable  to  contract,  February  28,  1872. 
Risley  wrote  at  Washington,  March  1,  1873.  See  letter  with  estimate  of  weight  of 
freight,  &c.,  to  move:  (50  pounds  to  each  Indian  ;  6,625  persons;  331,250  pounds,  and 
one  month's  supplies;  390,460  pounds;  721,710  pounds;  estimated  distance  87^  miles.  (!) 
Cost,  $1.75  per  cwt,  per  contract.  Estimated  cost  of  move,  $12,629.93.) 


829 

May  18, 1873.  Risley  reports  from  Beaver  Creek,  agency  removed  entirely,  and  states 
voucher  issued  for  transportation  of  Indians  and  baggage,  Government  property  and 
supplies,  &c.  (See  letter  Whetstone  R.,  139.) 

May  31,  73.  Dr.  Graves  assigns  contract  to  Posey  S.  Wilson,  banker,  Cheyenne.  He 
forwards  it.  Vouchers  received  Indian  Office,  Washington,  June  24,  1873.  It  is  for 
2,236,126  pounds,  (three  times  estimate,)  transported  75  miles,  at  $2  per  cwt.  per  100 
miles ;  amount,  $33,541.89.  Payment  suspended.  See  voucher  with  its  strong  certifi 
cate,  by  Agent  Risley,  as  to  articles  transported,  their  weight,  the  distance,  (really  35 
miles,)  &c. 

Beef  receipted  for  to  the  contractor  by  the  Whetstone  agent. 


Date, 

Gross 
weight. 

Average 
per  head. 

Date. 

Gross 
weight. 

Average 
per  he  ad. 

July  10  1872 

Lbs. 
686  750 

Lbs. 
1,025 

November  28,  1872  

Lbs. 
614,  000 

Lbs. 
1,000 

A  u  "list  1  1872 

404  625 

975 

December  10  1872 

2  631  265 

1,000 

Au(rust  19  1872 

880  720 

1  010 

March  19  1873 

1  068  015 

968} 

September  27  1872 

1  016  000 

1  000 

April  10  1873 

322  644 

1  002 

October  28  1872 

680  636 

998 

May  30,  1873  

617,  900 

925 

NOTE.— Above  taken  from  receipts  forwarded  to  Indian  Office  for  settlement. 
Losses  of  beef-cattle  at  Whetstone  from  agency  herd. 

Second  quarter,  1872, 17  head  ;  average  weight,  975  pounds  ;  loss,  gross,  16,575  pounds. 
Third  quarter,  1872,  177  head;  average  weight,  1,010  and  1,025  pounds  ;  loss,  gross, 
179,055  pounds. 

NOTE. — Above  taken  from  provision-returns  of  Agent  Risley  for  periods  named. 

Amount  of  beef  kept  on  hand  by  agent  at  Whetstone. 

July  1, 1872, 689,090  pounds  ;  quarter  October  1, 1872, 1,282,450  pounds  ;  January  1, 
1873',  2,184,651  pounds,  gross.  (!) 

NOTE. — These  figures  from  provision-returns  of  agent  on  file  in  Indian  Office. 
Number  of  Indians  rationed  by  agent  at  Whetstone  according  to  his  returns. 

Average  number  to  whom  issued  during  each  of  the  several  months  named  :  March, 
1872,  2,700;  April,  4,575;  May,  5,575;  June,  5,575;  July,  7,200;  August,  8,975;  Sep 
tember,  10,735;  October,  12,135;  November  and  December,  12,135.  No  returns  at  In 
dian  Office  now,  (July  10, 1873.) 

MEMORANDUM,  JUNE  12, 1873. — The  number  of  Bruld  and  other  Sioux  at  and  belong 
ing  to  Spotted  Tail's  (Whetstone)  agency,  and  including  those  temporarily  absent  but 
properly  rationed  there,  as  given  by  Indian  chiefs,  and  verified  by  statements  of  em 
ploye's,  &c.,  and  observation  of  special  commissioner,  from  2,300  to  2,600  souls. 

The  greatest  number  of  Indians  at  and  around  said  agency,  and  those  rationed  dur 
ing  any  month  from  July  1, 1872,  to  June  1, 1873,  according  to  same  authority,  8,000 ; 
5,500  being  of  northern  and  eastern  bauds  of  Sioux. 

The  above  notes  are  furnished  to  be  added  to  those  of  Messrs.  Kemble  and  Alvord, 
special  commissioners,  already  signed  by  them. 

HENRY  E.  ALVORD, 
Special  Indian  Commissioner. 


INSPECTOR  DANIELS'S  REPORT. 

OMAHA,  NEBR.,  August  30,  1873. 

SIH  :  Pursuant  to  instructions  from  the  Department  dated  Washington,  D.  C.,  July  12, 
1873,  pertaining  to  the  examination  of  affairs  at  the  Whetstone  agency,  while  in  charge 
of  late  Agent  D.  R.  Risley,  I  visited  the  said  agency  on  the  28th  of  July,  and  again, 
after  receiving  Department  letter  of  July  28,  on  the  i6th  of  August,  spending  two  days 
to  make  the  examination  complete.  August  29  I  met  late  Agent  Risley  in  Omaha,  with 
the  papers  connected  with  his  duties  as  agent.  After  a  full  investigation  into  the 
aifairs  connected  with  the  Whetstone  agency  under  late  Ageut  Risley,  I  do  not  find 


830 

that  there  has  been  any  more  supplies  receipted  for  than  were  received.  The  issue  of 
rations  was  made  upon  the  number  of  lodges  as  given  by  the  Indians  themselves  ;  and 
statements  of  disinterested  parties,  both  whites  and  Indians,  are  that  there  were  from 
fifteen  to  twenty  hundred  lodges  present  to  receive  supplies  during  the  fall  and  winter 
of  1872  and  1873.  Also,  at  times  the  action  of  the  Indians  in  supporting  their  demands 
for  the  number  of  lodges  stated  was  such  as  to  render  the  lives  of  Government  employe's 
insecure  unless  conceded. 

I  find  that  the  number  of  laborers  employed  were  in  excess  of  what  the  necessities  of 
the  service  required ;  that  the  number  of  herders  actually  employed  in  that  capacity 
was  less  than  the  number  reported  on  the  report  for  third  and  fourth  quarters,  1873. 
(See  affidavit  of  John  Atkinson,  chief  herder.) 

In  the  Graves  voucher  for  moving  the  Whetstone  agency,  the  distance  between  the 
old  and  new  location  is  estimated  to  be  seventy-five  miles.  I  find  f/om  the  best  infor 
mation  that  can  be  had,  that  the  distance  could  not  have  exceeded  fifty  miles.  The 
present  traveled  road,  which  is  about  thirty-six  miles,  was  unexplored  at  the  time  the 
agency  was  removed.  The  freight  of  the  old  agency  was  hauled  by  "  men  of  the  coun 
try,"  and  weighed  when  loaded.  The  names  of  the  parties  engaged  are  herein  inclosed, 
but  the  amount  of  freight  that  each  man  transported  could  not  be  had,  owing  to  their 
absence. 

I  herewith  inclose  affidavits  of  persons  living  at  the  agency,  and  vouchers  of  Henry 
Graves. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
Uniied  States  Indian  Inspector. 

Hon.  EDWARD  P.  SMITH, 

Commissioner  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 


Affidavit  of  DominicJc  Bray. 

I 

Domiuick  Bray  being  sworn,  says :  I  have  been  at  this  agency  employed  by  the 
agents  since  1868.  Was  employed  by  agent  D.  R.  Risley  as  "  first-class  'laborer "  to 
issue  rations  to  the  Indians.  Supplies  were  hauled  to  Indians  last  summer.  If  the 
Indians  were  camped  a  long  distance  away  their  rations  were  hauled  by  the  hundred, 
and  if  near  they  were  hauled  by  the  day.  Mr.  Todd  Randall  hauled,  but  Mr.  E.  W. 
Raymond  hauled  the  most  with  his  own  teams.  I  issued  to  more  than  1,500  lodges 
sometimes.  They  would  run  from  800  to  2,000  lodges  during  the  year  ending  in  June 
last.  I  heard  they  lost  cattle  last  year,  but  can't  say  how  many.  David  R.  Rogers  was 
at  work  here  as  assistant  to  the  carpenter.  The  Indians  acted  bad  many  times,  and 
Spotted  Tail's  Indians  were  the  worst.  There  was  no  dependence  to  be  placed  in  the 
statements  of  the  Indians  about  their  number  of  lodges,  and  we  had  to  issue  just  as 
they  said.  I  know  nothing  about  the  number  of  cattle  received  at  any  time  or  the 
number  of  employes  at  the  agency.  They  had  no  beef  to  issue  for  about  thirty  days, 
early  in  the  spring. 

DOMINICK  BRAY. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me  at  the  Whetstone  agency,  Dak.,  this  16th  day  oi 
August,  1873. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 


Affidavit  of  E.  W.  Raymond. 

E.  W.  Raymond  being  sworn,  says  :  I  was  employed  by  Agent  Risley  the  1st  of  Jan 
uary,  1873.  Have  been  with  these  Indians  for  twenty-three  years.  I  was  employed 
by  Mr.  Risley  as  superintendent  of  farming.  My  own  teams  hauled  rations  for  the  In 
dians  last  winter  and  spring.  I  was  to  be  paid  by  the  100  pounds,  at  the  rate  of  $1 
per  hundred.  When  I  hauled  to  Spotted  Tail's  camp  I  was  to  be  paid  the  same  as 
though  it  was  hauled  here.  They  were  moving  the  agency,  and  I  hauled  to  both  places, 
the  new  agency  and  the  camp.  The  estimated  distance  that  the  freight  was  trans 
ported  was  fifty  miles.  I  should  think  the  present  traveled  road  between  the  two 
agencies  to  be  about  forty  miles.  I  have  hauled  no  supplies  by  the  day  while  Agent 
Risley  was  here.  In  the  removal  of  the  agency  I  moved  Indians,  hardware,  grain, 
lumber,  and  flour,  &c.  Excepting  flour  the  freight  was  all  weighed.  I  don't  know 
how  many  Indians  were  here  from  September,  1872,  to  July,  1873.  Last  fall  and  win 
ter  there  were  two  or  three  times  a.s  many  as  there  is  now;  I  think  they  would  aver 
age  over  fifteen  hundred  (1,500)  lodges.  Cattle  were  received  twice  or  three  times 


831 

since  last  December  by  Agent  Risley.  I  don't  know  how  much  either  herd  weighed, 
but  I  told  Mr.  Bosler  that  I  thought  they  would  go  over  750  pounds ;  that  came  in 
March.  They  were  without  beef  for  a  mouth.  I  hauled  221,390  pounds  of  freight 
from  the  old  agency. 

E.  W.  RAYMOND. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me  this  16th  day  of  August,  1873,  at  Whetstone 
Agency,  Dak. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 


Affidavit  of  Charles  Bcnard. 

Mr.  Charles  Benard  being  sworn  says :  I  was  in  the  employ  of  late  Agent  Risley  as 
butcher,  for  the  time  he  was  here.  Have  been  at  this  agency  since  18G8.  The  cattle 
were  weighed  on  the  large  scales.  They  weighed  from  10  to  100  out  of  each  drove. 
The  cattle  I  butchered  weighed  from  900  to  1,000  pounds  and  over.  One  that  I  killed 
last  fall  weighed  1,100 ;  they  were  good,  fat  cattle.  I  don't  remember  the  number  they 
received  at  a  time,  but  one  time  I  think  it  was  2,500.  I  know  this  because  it  was 
spoken  of,  as  they  got  so  many  at  a  time.  They  received  cattle  three  times  this  spring, 
but  I  don't  remember  the  number  at  a  time.  I  think  it  was  a  month  we  were  with 
out  beef  when  the  beef  came  in  March. 

CHARLES  BENARD. 

Signed  and  sworn  to  before  J.  W.  Daniels,  United  States  Indian  inspector,  this  the 
16th  day  of  August,  1873,  at  Whetstone  Agency,  Dak. 

J.  W.  DANIELS. 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 


Affidavit  of  Todd  Randall. 

Todd  Randall  being  sworn  says  :  I  have  been  with  these  Indians  since  1866.  Have 
been  in  the  employ  of  the  Government  most  of  the  time.  I  hauled  supplies  to  the  In 
dians  camped  away  for  Agent  Risley.  He  paid  me  $5  a  day  for  2-mule  teams  and  $7.50 
per  day  for  4-mule  teams.  Hauled  for  him  very  near  three  months  in  the  second  and 
third  quarters  of  1872.  The  disposition  of  the  Indians  at  times  has  been  very  bad. 
They  would  try  to  intimidate  by  force  and  talk.  The  man  in  charge  of  the  agency,  as 
well  as  the  whites  here,  had  to  yield  to  their  demands  to  keep  the  peace  and  save  their 
lives.  A  great  many  Indians  were  here  last  winter,  more  than  twice  as  many  as  there 
are  now.  I  don't  know  the  average  number.  I  had  teams  to  work  in  moving  the 
agency  to  this  place — four  4-mule  teams  all  the  time,  and  part  of  the  time  five  teams, 
besides  two  Indian  teams  that  worked  for  me.  Three  trips  Bridgeman's  teams  hauled 
for  me.  He  had  two  teams.  The  freight  consisted  of  mostly  flour-  I  think  seven 
loads  of  lumber,  plows,  &c.  I  hauled  in  my  name  139,705  pounds.  The  estimated  dis 
tance  the  freight  was  hauled  was  fifty  miles.  The  present  road  was  impracticable  at 
that  season  of  the  year.  The  way  we  travel  to  the  old  agency  now  is  about  thirty-five 
miles. 

TODD  RANDALL. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me  this  16th  day  of  August,  1873. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 

WHETSTONE  AGENCY,  DAK.,  August  16, 1873. 


Affidavit  of  Joseph  Bissonette. 

Joseph  Bissonette,  sr.,  being  duly  sworn  says:  I  have  been  among  these  Indians  for 
forty  years.  Was  employed  by  Agent  Risley  at  Spotted  Tail's  camp  to  assist  him  in 
farming.  During  the  fall  and  winter  when  the  rations  were  sent  to  the  Indians,  I  was 
there  to  issue  to  them.  In  my  camp  at  Spotted  Tail's  camp  there  were  300  lodges.  I 
could  not  say  how  many  lodges  drew  rations,  but  there  were  a  great  many.  The 
rations  were  hauled  to  ca'rnp  by  Mr.  Raymond's  teams  and  Mr.  Randall's  teams.  They 
hauled  rations  every  ten  days.  At  times  the  Indians  acted  bad,  and  had  it  not  been  for 
the  infiuence  of  the  "  men  of  the  country,"  who  have  been  long  with  them,  there  would 
have  been  much  more  trouble.  This  was  caused  by  the  presence  of  northern  Indians. 
They  were  without  beef  this  spring  about  thirty  days. 

JOSEPH  BISSONETTE,  SR. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me  at  the  Whetstone  agency,  Dak.,  this  16th  day  of 
August,  1863. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector* 


832 

Affidavit  of  H.  Rouleau. 

Mr.  H.  Rouleau  being  sworn  says:  I  was  in  the  employ  of  late  agent  Risley,  in 
charge  of  all  the  property  excepting  supplies.  The  "  men  of  the  country  "  hauled  sup 
plies  to  the  Indian  earn ps  all  last  year.  They  hauled  by  the  hundred.  When  the 
agency  was  moved  I  kept  an  account  of  all  the  property  shipped.  It  was  all  weighed 
on  the  scales  but  a  few  loads  after  the  scales  were  taken  down.  The  account  that 
was  kept  by  me  was  taken  by  Mr.  Cox  when  he  left.  I  hauled  one  load  which  weighed 
3,500  pounds.  I  could  not  say  how  many  Indians  were  here,  but  I  should  judge  from 
1,500  to  1,800  lodges.  There  were  a  great  many,  and  they,  at  times,  behaved  them 
selves  very  bad,  and  threatened  the  man  in  charge  if  he  did  not  do  as  they  wanted.  I 
know  they  lost  a  good  many  cattle  last  season,  but  don't  know  how  many. 

HUB.  ROULEAU. 

Signed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  the  16th  day  of  August,  A.  D.  1873. 

J.  W.  DANIELS, 
United  States  Indian  Inspector. 

WHETSTONE  AGENCY,  August  16,  1873. 


TALK  WITH  RED  CLOUD  IN  WASHINGTON,  MAY  28,  1875. 

Council  with  delegation  from  Eed  Cloud  and  Spotted  Tail  agencies,  Jield  &»/  Assistant  Secretary 
and  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  May  28,  1875. 

Secretary  COWEN.  Who  do  you  want  for  an  interpreter  ? 

Answer.  Mr.  Randall. 

Secretary  COWEN.  The  President  was  not  able  to  come  to-day.  He  intended  to,  but 
it  was  impossible ;  and  he  sent  word  for  you  to  talk  in  the  presence  of  myself,  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  and  Professor  Marsh.  We  will  have  your  words 
written  down  and  will  report  them  to  the  President,  wrho  will  see  you  again  and  have 
an  additional  talk  with  you  on  this  subject.  We  understand  that  you,  or  Red  Cloud, 
at  least,  wants  to  make  some  complaints  about  the  condition  of  affairs  at  the  agency, 
and  we  want  to  hear  all  he  has  to  say.  Mr.  Hinmaii  is  here,  and  can  make  any  cor 
rections  and  suggestions  if  he  thinks  there  is  any  mistake  in  the  interpretation. 

RED  CLOUD.  There  is  something  that  is  going  on  that  does  not  please  me  altogether, 
and  that  is  the  reason  we  have  come  to  have  you  explain  it.  What  I  first  want  to 
speak  about  is  the  Nebraska  line.  I  also  come  to  speak  about  matters  about  the 
agency.  I  come  to  see  and  tell  my  Great  Father  that  there  were  some  of  our  people 
last  year  that  did  not  get  blankets  and  clothing  sufficient.  We  suffered  with  cold. 
Look  at  me,  my  Father.  I  am  a  man.  My  friend,  I  know  my  grand  Father  does  not 
know  these  things. 

There  is  another  thing.  The  provisions  that  were  bought  and  sent  to  us — the  differ 
ent  kinds  of  provisions — flour,  sugar,  coffee,  and  tobacco,  the  agents  do  not  buy ;  but 
they  examine  our  provisions  and  everything  that  was  sent  to  us.  (To  Professor 
Marsh  :)  Did  you  bring  those  samples  of  the  things  I  gave  you  last  summer  ? 

Prof.  MARSH.  I  showed  them  to  the  Great  Father,  and  told  him  what  you  told  me  to 
tell  him. 

RED  CLOUD.  That  was  the  idea  of  the  people  of  my  band  in  giving  you  those  sam 
ples.  For  two  years  we  were  furnished  with  beef,  and  when  they  were  weighed  some 
were  small  and  some  were  large,  but  they  weighed  them  altogether.  I  don't  want  to 
lay  the  blame  for  this  on  any  one  in  this  matter  ;  I  don't  know  who  is  to  blame.  I 
think  my  Great  Father  sends  me  the  kind  of  provisions  as  he  promised  to  do,  and  the 
number  that  he  promised.  Last  winter  we  lived  very  hard.  It  was  a  hard  winter  for 
ns ;  for  one  or  two  months  we  lived  very  hard.  We  had  no  fresh  pork ;  it  was  all 
barreled  pork,  and  we  don't  like  that  kind  of  pork.  The  tobacco  we  get  is  not  very 
good,  it  does  not  suit  us;  we  cannot  smoke  it  well;  it  is  sweet  and  has  molasses  in  it, 
and  is  sticky  and  won't  smoke.  In  regard  to  blankets,  we  are  a  large  people,  we  want 
large  blankets  to  wear.  A  great  many  of  our  blankets  were  branded  like  soldiers' 
blankets ;  we  don't  like  to  have  them  branded  in  this  way — like  soldiers.  That  is  what 
I  have  to  say,  and  I  am  telling  the  truth.  I  call  on  the  Great  Spirit  to  witness  that  I 
am  telling  the  truth. 

Mr.  MARSH.  I  want  to  know  if  he  is  complaining  of  the  quantity  or  quality  of  his 
provisions? 

RED  CLOUD.  A  portion  of  our  flour  was  very  bad  this  year,  and  the  barreled  pork 
we  don't  like.  The  tobacco  was  bad  too,  and  some  of  our  sugar  was  bad.  Portions  of 
all  these  articles  were  bad.  The  pork  was  all  bad. 


833 

General  COWEN.  About  what  proportion  of  these  things  were  bad  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  amounts  probably  in  the  tribes  were  five  or  six  wagon  loads  last 
year.  The  wagons  are  not  covered,  and  it  rains  in  our  country,  and  they  get  wet  some 
times  in  crossing  the  river;  and  that  might  possibly  be  the  reason  these  things  were 
bad.  Some  of  the  flour  is  black,  and  we  cannot  eat  it.  The  sugar  is  the  same  way, 
and  comes  there  wet,  but  it  might  have  been  rained  on  in  crossing  the  river.  The  sugar 
last  year  was  yellow,  and  we  don't  like  that  kind. 

General  COWEN.  What  complaint  have  you  to  make  about  the  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  that  are  driven' there  are  small,  from  yearlings  up  to  three 
years  old,  mostly  small  beeves.  Many  that  are  driven  to  us  are  small.  There  are 
yearling  calves  among  them.  They  give  these  small  cattle  and  calves  to  the  Indians 
without  weighing  th«  m. 

COMMISSIONER.  You  receive  these  cattle  when  they  are  given  to  you  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  It  is  the  calves  they  take  out  of  the  herd  and  don't  weigh  them,  and 
give  them  to  us.  That  is  all  I  have  to  say.  I  just  wanted  to  tell  you  about  the  quality 
of  the  provisions. 

COMMISSIONER.  Do  you  know  about  the  contractor  keeping  cattle  by  themselves 
that  are  sick  or  lame  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  beef- contractor  drives  beeves  there  every  twelve  days,  and  there  is 
a  place  where  they  put  those  cattle  by  themselves. 

COMMISSIONER.  They  don't  issue  the  sick  or  lame  cattle  to  the  Indians,  do  they? 

RED  CLOUD.  Out  of  the  cattle  that  are  driven  there  some  few  of  them  are  lame,  and 
they  are  all  put  together,  and  the  agent  issues  them  to  the  Indians. 

COMMISSIONER.  You  mean  that  these  cattle  are  issued  to  the  Indians,  or  taken  care 
of  by  the  agent  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  are  brought  there  by  the  contractor  and  weighed  and  turned 
over  to  the  agent,  and  are  issued  to  us  by  the  agent. 

COMMISSIONER.  You  don't  understand.  You  say  that  there  is  a  herd  of  cattle  that 
are  sick  and  lame,  and  are  kept  by  themselves.  'Do  these  cattle  belong  to  the  con 
tractor  or  the  Indians  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  don't  seem  to  understand  about  these  lame  cattle.  The  cattle  are 
driven  through  by  the  contractor,  and  delivered  to  the  agent  by  the  contractor,  and 
then  kept  by  the  agent. 

COMMISSIONER.  Are  these  sick  and  lame  cattle  kept  by  the  agent  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  am  now  referring  to  last  winter.  Then  the  cattle  came  in  there  and 
some  of  them  were  poor;  and  these  were  some  that  were  left  after  the  contractor  had 
delivered  them.  There  were  some  that  were  left  and  kept  in  the  herd. 

COMMISSION*:!*.  Who  kept  them  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  agent's  man,  a  Mexican,  an  employd  of  the  agent  who  had  the  cattle 
in  charge. 

COMMISSIONER.  How  many  of  these  cattle  were  there  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  A  few. 

COMMISSIONER.  How  many? 

RED  CLOUD.  From  sixty  to  seventy ;  perhaps  over. 

COMMISSIONER.  Had  those  cattle  been  weighed  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes,  sir. 

COMMISSIONER.  What  became  of  the  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  am  speaking  now  of  the  cattle  that  strayed  off.  It  was  very  cold 
weather,  and  storms  drove  them  off. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  want  to  ask  again  what  became  of  those  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  that  were  over  were  driven  there,  and  the  amount  that  was 
over  more  than  was  issued  the  agent  gave  to  the  Indians,  one  each  to  the  families 
around. 

COMMISSIONER.  Does  the  agent  generally  do  that  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  were  not  issued  very  regularly.  It  was  a  very  hard  winter. 
Sometimes  there  were  cattle  more  than  enough  for  one  issue,  and  the  few  over,  the  agent 
would  give  those  cattle  to  the  Indians  as  far  as  they  would  go.  A  good  many  froze  to 
death,  and  many  white  men  froze  at  the  same  time.  It  was  hard  to  get  the  cattle 
together  to  issue. 

COMMISSIONER.  These  cattle  were  issued  by  the  agent  after  the  issue  was  made  ? 
Didn't  you  say  just  now  that  the  cattle  were  kept  by  the  Mexican  herder? 

RED  CLOUD.  That  was  when  there  was  an  overissue.     They 

Mr.  HINMAN.  (Interrupting  the  interpreter,  Randall.)  He  didn't  say  that  at  all. 

Mr.  RANDALL.  That  was  what  he  meant. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  want  you  to  say  what  Red  Cloud  says. 

RED  CLOUD.  These  cattle  that  were  left  over  at  the  issue  were  put  in  the  herd  kept 
by  his  nephew,  the  herder.  These  cattle  were  put  there,  and  when  they  were  dying 
with  the  cold  weather,  they  were  given  out  to  the  Indians. 

COMMISSIONER.  But  I  ask  you  now  about  the  cattle  that  were  kept  by  themselves. 
I  asked  you  that  to  begin  with.  These  were  cattle  that  were  kept  with  the  herd. 


834 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  Those  cattle  that  were  poor  and  sick  died.  They  did  not  keep  them 
up  and  they  died. 

COMMISSIONER.  Spotted  Tail  doesn't  know  that ;  I  am  asking  Red  Cloud.  You  say, 
Red  Cloud,  that  there  was  a  herd  of  sick  and  lame  cattle  kept  by  themselves.  Do  you 
say  so,  or  did  I  misunderstand  you  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  were  brought  up  by  the  contractor  to  the  agency.  They 
•were  weighed  and  turned  over  to  the  agent,  and  the  agent  keeps  a  herd  there,  and 
sometimes  there  are  more  cattle  there  than  are 

Mr.  HINMAN.  (Interrupting  the  interpreter.)  He  doesn't  say  that.  He  says  the  cattle 
were  brought  from  a  great  way  otf.  While  on  the  way  they  'belonged  to  the  man  who 
brought  them.  After  they  were  turned  over  to  the  agent,  they  belonged  to  him.  But 
I  don't  know  who  took  out  the  lame  cattle,  or  who  they  belonged  to. 

COMMISSIONER.  Now  I  want  to  speak  of  those  sixty  or  seventy  that  were  lefo  over 
one  time.  At  what  time  was  that  issue  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  In  December. 

COMMISSIONER.  What  was  the  time  when  these  cattle  were  turned  into  the  herd  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Right  after. 

COMMISSIONER.  Did  you  go  with  General  Bradley  to  see  some  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes. 

COMMISSIONER.  When  was  that  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  That  was  after  this  time. 

COMMISSIONER.  Where  did  you  go  I 

RED  CLOUD.  Above  the  agency ;  above  the  military  camp. 

COMMISSIONER.  What  herd  of  cattle  did  you  go  to  *f 

RED  CLOUD.  I  went  to  a  herd  that  was  kept  on  this  branch  by  the  agent. 

Mr.  HINMAN.  He  didn't  say  that. 

COMMISSIONER.  Were  they  kept  by  the  contractor,  or  by  the  agent  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  don't  know.  The  cattle  came  together.  They  were  cattle  that  were 
left  over,  and  were  kept  herded  on  this  creek. 

COMMISSIONER.  Who  was  herding  them  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  A  Mexican  and  a  nephew  of  the  agent. 

COMMISSIONER.  How  many  cattle  were  there  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  did  not  count  them. 

COMMISSIONER.  Can't  you  tell  whether  there  were  ten  or  one  hundred  ? 

RED  CLOUD,  Eight. 

COMMISSIONER.  Were  these  the  kind  ?  Were  they  just  such  cattle  as  you  had  been 
receiving  all  winter  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  cattle  that  were  there  were  the  poor  cattle  that  were  left  out  of 
the  herd.  Those  were  the  poor  ones  that  were  rejected. 

COMMISSIONER.  Then  you  don't  mean  to  say  that  the  cattle  that  were  given  you 
were  as  poor  and  as  bad  as  these  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  During  the  winter  a  great  many  good  beeves  were  given.  There  were 
some  poor,  but  these  poorest  ones  were  driven  out  and  were  taken  out  of  the  herd,  and 
not  issued  to  the  Indians.  Most  of  them  were  good  beeves.  There  were  a  great  many 
very  good  beeves. 

COMMISSIONER.  Did  you  tell  General  Bradley  that  these  eight  cattle  were  the  kind 
that  the  agent  generally  gave  you  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  It  was  Red  Dog  that  told  General  Bradley  that  the  agent  gave  the  In 
dians  poor  cattle  sometimes. 

Mr.  HINMAN.  I  don't  think  that  is  right.  Red  Cloud  says  General  Bradley  asked  if 
those  were  the  cattle  they  had  issued  to  them,  and  Red  Dog  said  those  were  the  kind 
of  cattle. 

COMMISSIONER.  If  General  Bradley  had  asked  you  that  question,  would  you  havo 
answered  that  way  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Red  Dog  said  that  and  I  said  nothing.  I  am  not  responsible  for  it  at 
all.  I  went  out  to  the  military  camp,  and  Bradley  asked  where  the  cattle  were  kept, 
and  he  said  we  will  go  there.  While  they  were  driving  in  the  herd  I  was  in  the  house, 
and  I  heard  Bradley  ask  Red  Dog  if  those  were  the  cattle  issued  to  them  ;  and  Red 
Dog  said  yes,  but  he  meant  the  kind  of  cattle — that  they  were  Mexican  cattle  ;  but  he 
did  not  refer  to  the  quality. 

COMMISSIONER.  Do  you'know  what  became  of  those  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  As  to  the  agent,  there  was  a  time  that  17  cattle  were  killed,  and  he 
took  the  hides  and  gave  us  orders  on  the  store  for  the  hides,  and  when  we  counted  up 
we  were  $40  short. 

COMMISSIONER.  Was  it  the  agent  or  the  trader  that  made  you  come  short  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  He  gave  orders  for  $3  instead  of  $4.  But  in  regard  to  the  invalid  herd 
that  was  spoken  of,  there  were  seven  or  eight  of  them  that  were  never  given  to  the 
Indians  at  all. 

COMMISSIONER.  Do  I  understand  that  these  eight  were  some  the  agent  rejected,  and 
•were  not  issued  to  the  Indians? 


888 

Mr.  HINMAN.  He  does  not  say  that  they  were  issued,  but"that  the  Indians  took  them. 

COMMISSIONER.  You  say  the  agent  didn't  issue  them,  but  the  Indians  took  them  for 
themselves  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  It  was  a  pretty  hard  time  for  the  Indians  to  get  anything  to  eat,  and 
they  took  those  and  killed  them. 

COMMISSIONER.  But  you  say  the  agent  rejected  them,  and  the  Indians  took  them, 
themselves  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes  ;  the  Indians  took  these  cattle  and  killed  them. 

COMMISSIONER.  Well,  let  us  have  that  settled.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that 
these  cattle,  when  the  contractor  drove  them  up,  were  rejected  by  the  agent  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes. 

COMMISSIONER.  And  then  these  were  the  cattle  that  afterwards  Red  Dog  showed  to 
Bradley  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes. 

Professor  MARSH.  Didn't  you  say  that  the  contractor  turned  over  these  cattle  to  the 
agent,  and  that  he  issued  part  of  them  to  the  Indians,  and  that  those  were  left  in  the 
hands  of  the  agent — the  Mexican  and  his  nephew  taking  care  of  them  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  When  the  cattle  are  brought,  a  good  many  of  them  are  left  over  after 
the  issue,  especially  if  a  large  number  were  brought ;  the  remainder  are  turned  over 
to  the  agent's  herder.  This  time  there  were  none  over  but  the  rejected  ones,  and  they 
were  turned  over  with  the  rejected  ones  to  the  agent's  herder. 

Mr.  MARSH.  Can  you  give  me  the  reason  why  these  cattle  were  turned  over  into  the 
agent's  herd  ? 

COMMISSIONER.  I  don't  know  much  about  it,  but  I  think  I  can  explain  it.  The  con 
tractor  keeps  no  herd  within  eighty  miles  of  the  agency.  If  there  are  any  cattle  left 
over,  of  any  kind,  they  have  to  be  left  with  the  agent. 

Professor  MARSH.  When  the  herd  comes  up  from  the  contractor,  doesn't  the  agent 
take  the  whole  herd  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Yes. 

Professor  MARSH.  Then  these  cattle  that  were  left  over  were  accepted  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  No;  those  that  were  left  over  were  rejected.  There  are  generally  about 
sixty  left  over  ;  this  time  there  were  only  eight. 

Professor  MARSH.  If  they  were  not  accepted  by  the  agent,  and  the  agent  did  not  con- 
eider  himself  responsible  for  them,  why  did  the  nephew,  the  agent's  herder,  take  care 
of  them  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  There  was  nobody  else  to  take  care  of  them,  and  they  cost  money  to 
somebody  and  were  put  in  there. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  want  to  ask  if,  at  the  next  issue,  any  cattle  were  heavier  than 
those  that  Bradley  saw  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  want  to  be  just  in  this  matter  and  say  the  truth.  Some  herds  of  cat 
tle  that  are  brought  up  there  have  large  and  some  have  small  cattle  ;  this  one  was  a 
good  one. 

Mr.  MARSH.  At  the  next  issue  were  any  cattle  heavier  than  those  poor  cattle  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  told  you  that  the  cattle  at  the  next  issue  were  good.  If  I  should  say 
that  they  were  all  large,  I  should  not  tell  the  truth.  They  varied,  but  it  was  a  good 
issue. 

Mr.  MARSH.  Were  you  at  the  next  issue  ? 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  We  all  attend  the  issue  of  cattle.  We  do  not  expect  to  get  cattle 
all  so  high,  (indicating  the  height  with  his  hand  ;)  but  some  so  high,  and  some  smaller. 

Mr.  MARSH.     Were  you,  Red  Cloud,  present  at  the  next  issue  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  have  the  heart.  I  and  my  men  all  go  to  the  issue.  The  cattle  are 
different  sizes,  and  I  have  to  go,  because  all  the  families  want  to  get  the  large  ones. 
It  would  be  better  if  the  cattle  should  be  issued  by  weight. 

Professor  MARSH.  When  the  herd  conies  up  and  is  accepted  by  the  agent,  are  all 
weighed,  or  only  a  few  of  them  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  We  have  a  large  corral  with  a  large  entrance,  with  large  scales  at  the 
entrance,  and  the  cattle  are  driven  on  to  them,  six  or  seven  at  a  time  ;  and  so  every 
hoof  is  weighed.  I  think  my  father  (meaning  the  agent)  has  been  neglectful  in  one 
thing.  He  does  not  keep  the  scales  in  order.  The  planks  are  too  thick.  They  should 
be  made  light  as  possible,  so  that  the  cattle  may  weigh  as  much  as  possible. 

Professor  MARSH.  Were  the  samples  given  me  of  tobacco,  flour,  and  sugar  fair  sam 
ples  of  what  you  generally  had  issued  to  yon  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  We  don't  mean  to  say  that  all  the  provisions  were  according  to  the 
samples  given  ;  but  those  samples  were  selected  by  Red  Dog  from  the  houses.  He  said 
that  was  what  they  were  eating,  and  asked  you  to  ask  the  Great  Father  to  give  better. 

Professor  MARSH.  But  you  gave  me  those ;  were  they  a  fair  sample  of  what  you  were 
getting  generally? 

RED  CLOUD.  Those  samples  were  taken  part  from  my  house  and  part  from  Red  Dog's  ; 
and  I  merely  meant  to  say  that  they  were  taken  from  food  that  was  issued.  I  do  not 
mean  to  say  that  it  was  all  like  that. 


836 

General  COWEN.  How  much  was  like  that  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  said  five  wagons.  I  don't  know,  but  I  think  they  got  wet  going 
through  the  Platte. 

General  COWEN.  How  long  would  five  wagon-loads  last  you  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  I  have  a  very  large  baud  and  a  large  tribe  of  people;  and  I  think  it 
would  take  from  seven  to  eight  wagon-loads  for  one  issue. 

COMMISSIONER.  How  many  issues  do  you  have  in  a  year  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  Every  ten  to  thirteen  days  they  issue  beef. 

COMMISSIONER.  Except  these  five  wagon-loads,  were  the  rest  of  your  supplies  of  a 
good  quality  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  That  which  is  not  wet  is  of  a  good  quality. 

SPOTTED  TAIL.  All  the  supplies  which  I  have  received,  from  the  time  the  agency  was 
established  to  the  present  time,  have  been  bad. 

RED  CLOUD.  I  think  the  provisions  are  wet  to  make  them  weigh  more. 

Professor  MARSH.  Is  the  tobacco,  coffee,  and  sugar  good  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  tobacco  was  wet ;  and  it  is  of  a  kind  that  we  don't  want;  it  is 
mixed  with  honey  and  molasses,  and  is  made  for  chewing  and  not  for  smoking. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  have  some  better  tobacco  for  you  this  year.  I  did  not  buy  it  of  the 
same  man  as  last  year. 

Mr.  MARSH.  Was  the  coffee  good  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  It  was  not  very  good  to  drink,  but  we  had  to  drink  it  because  we  had 
no  other;  but  we  would  like  to  have  better. 

Professor  MARSH.  Did  your  people  suffer  from  starvation  last  winter? 

RED  CLOUD.  It  was  a  very  hard  winter. 

Professor  MARSH.  How  long  did  you  go  without  beef? 

RED  CLOUD.  The  last  winter  has  been  very  hard;  our  issue  has  been  every  thirteen 
days,  and  it  has  been  from  thirteen  to  twenty-one  days.  That  man,  American  Horse, 
is  appointed  to  attend  the  issues  and  see  that  everything  is  right. 

COMMISSIONER.  Do  you  know  why  the  contractor  didn't  have  his  cattle  there,  when 
that  long  time  of  issue  occurred  ? 

RED  CLOUD.  They  were  bringing  a  large  herd  over,  and  there  were  very  cold  days, 
and  two  warm  days,  and  then  some  cold  days;  and  the  man  who  was  bringing  them, 
over  was  frozen. 

COMMISSIONER.  Do  you  blame  the  agent  or  contractor  for  the  man  being  frozen  ? 

AMERICAN  HORSE.  We  are  in  earnest  about  this  matter,  but  do  not  want  to  blame 
anybody;  we  want  you  to  give  us  the  best  provision  you  can;  and  in  this  conversa 
tion  we  don't  blame  anybody.  I  am  appointed  to  stand  at  the  scales  at  all  issues.  I 
don't  mean  to  blame  the  agent ;  I  merely  say  these  things  because  I  was  asked. 

COMMISSIONER.  Is  there  anything  else  you  want  to  say  ? 

CONQUERING  BEAR.  I  would  like  to  say  a  word  in  regard  to  beef.  We  have  issued 
to  us  cattle  that  are  old  and  cattle  that  are  young;  hereafter  we  want  cattle  of  the 
same  age;  not  old  ones  nor  young  ones ;  I  mean  I  would  like  to  have  the  contract 
made  that  only  cattle  from  four  to  seven  years  old  be  accepted  for  our  agency. 

General  COWEN.  We  will  carry  your  words  to  the  Great  Father.  I  am  very  glad  that 
you  have  had  an  opportunity  to  tell  us  about  these  things;  and  in  future,  if  you  have 
anything  to  say,  you  must  let  us  know. 

Professor  MARSH.  I  would  like  to  know  if  Red  Cloud  and  his  baud  are  perfectly 
satisfied  with  their  present  agent. 

RED  CLOUD.  When  I  came  first  to  Washington  the  President  told  me  he  would  give 
me  an  agent,  and  I  must  look  out  for  him  ;  if  he  didn't  please  me,  to  bring  him  back ;  that 
he  had  a  great  many  men,  and  would  give  me  a  good  one.  I  have  brought  him  back 
here  for  you  to  consider  the  matter.  I  want  the  Great  Spirit  to  hear  me,  and  give  me  a 
good  and  wise  man  for  an  agent.  I  don't  want  a  western  man,  but  a  man  from  the 
East,  and  a  man  that  is  wealthy.  These  western  men  fill  their  pockets,  and  when 
they  are  full,  they  fill  their  hats;  and  then  they  say,  " good-by,"  and  go  away.  I 
know  there  are  a  great  many  good  men  the  Great  Father  has  here,  and  I  want  a  man 
for  an  agent  that  has  a  good  heart  and  money,  and  one  that  will  look  after  our  interest, 
and  take  good  care  of  us.  I  came  here  with  my  agent,  and  didn't  mean  to  say  any 
thing  about  this  thing,  but  have  been  forced  to  say  it. 

General  COWEN.  The  reason  we  asked  was  because  we  wanted  to  hear  all  you  had 
to  say,  and  we  will  have  the  Great  Father  give  you  a  good  man  for  an  agent. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  want  to  say  a  word  about  your  blankets.  You  complain  of  your 
blankets  being  marked  U.  S.  I.  D.,  (United  States  Indian  Department.)  That  was  done 
because  it  is  said  by  some  persons  that  many  of  the  Indians  sell  their  blankets  to  the 
traders ;  but  I  don't  know  whether  this  is  true ;  and  they  say,  too,  that  the  agent  sells 
your  blankets  to  the  traders.  Now,  in  order  to  know  whenever  any  of  your  blankets 
are  sold  in  these  ways,  we  put  that  mark  upon  them.  That  is  one  reason ;  it  is  to  pro 
tect  you  and  to  protect  us.  Now  about  your  clothing  being  short  or  scarce.  The 
same  is  true  of  you  as  of  the  Cheyenne  River  agency.  The  Indians  who  have  come  in 
there  from  the  upper  country  were  not  there  when  the  estimates  were  made  for  fur- 


837 

nishing  the  clothing,  and  the  clothing  sent  did  not  go  round  among  all  of  you.  This 
year  you  will  have  more  clothing,  because  you  have  been  counted,  and  more  Indians 
have  been  found  there  than  were  there  a  year  ago.  But  I  don't  want  to  make  you  too 
happy,  because  you  will  be  disappointed  again.  There  is  not  clothing  enough  bought 
for  you  this  year,  and  there  cannot  be,  because  there  is  not  money  enough.  You  require 
more  and  more  clothing  every  year,  because  you  get  less  yourselves  from  your  buffalo- 
hides  and  furs. 

About  your  pork.  I  sent  you  pork  because  there  is  more  in  it  to  eat  than  there  is  in 
a  pound  of  bacon.  The  soldiers  like  it  better  than  they  do  bacon ;  but  your  agent 
told  me  that  you  did  not  like  it,  and  this  year  I  have  not  sent  it  to  you,  but  have  sent 
bacon  instead. 

RED  CLOUD.  We  never  eat  pork,  and  I  don't  want  it  sent  to  us. 


TALK  WITH  LITTLE  WOUND  AND  SITTING  BULL,  IN  WASHINGTON,  JUNE 

5,  1875. 

Council  held  by  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  with  delegation  of  Sioux  from  Red  Cloud 
agency,  at  the  office  of  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  June  5,  1875. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  understand  that  some  of  the  young  men  want  to  speak  this  morn 
ing,  and  I  would  be  glad  to  hear  anything  they  have  to  say. 

RED  CLOUD.  My  friend,  we  are  going  home  to-day,  and  these  young  men  you  see 
here  want  to  shake  hands  with  you  and  bid  you  good-by.  We  came  also  to  ask  about 
something  we  have  not  heard  about.  I  would  like  to  ask  about  the  pay  for  those  who 
came  with  me,  the  interpreters  and  all  the  Indians. 

COMMISSIONER.  There  are  some  things  to  be  said  about  those  men  who  have  come 
along  that  I  would  rather  not  be  obliged  to  say  to  you.  They  have  not  come  by  the 
wish  of  anybody  but  themselves,  so  far  as  I  know,  and  they  have  been  sources  of  mis 
chief  and  trouble  ever  since  they  came  here.  They  got  you  to  insist  on  going  to  the 
Washington  House,  and  they  got  some  of  you  to  go  there  after  I  had  told  you  that  it  was 
not  a  proper  place  for  you  ;  they  have  led  you  into  bad  practices  since  you  have  been 
here;  they  have  taken  you,  with  Beveridge,  the  proprietor  of  the  Washington  House,  at 
night,  into  bad  places,  and  now  they  have  the  impudence  to  come  and  ask  me  to  pay 
them  for  that  sort  of  service,  and  I  leave  it  you  to  judge  whether  I  had  better  do  it  or 
not.  That  is  all  that  is  to  be  said  on  that  subject.  I  have  told  your  agent  to  spend 
for  you,  in  getting  such  presents  as  you  want,  $45  apiece.  This  is  in  addition  to  what 
you  have  already  received  in  suits  of  clothes  and  other  things  that  your  agent  has 
bought  for  you.  I  wish  I  could  make  it  more,  and  do  for  you  what  you  ask  in  that 
respect,  and  to  furnish  each  of  you  a  horse,  with  saddle  and  equipments ;  but  that  I  am 
Dot  able  to  do,  because  I  have  not  the  money  to  make  the  purchases. 

LITTLE  WOUND.  You  tell  the  truth  when  you  say  that  you  did  not  invite  the  inter 
preters  to  come  along  with  the  Indians;  we  have  heard  that  before;  but  if  we  had 
come  with  only  the  three  interpreters  belonging  to  our  delegation,  these  three  inter 
preters  would  dispute  as  to  what  we  said.  We  invited  these  three  to  come  in  order  to 
be  witnesses  on  our  return  as  to  what  was  done.  As  for  myself,  I  am  not  influenced 
by  these  men.  They  wanted  to  come  along  with  us,  and  now  they  say  we  have  deceived 
them,  and  between  the  two  they  are  falling  to  the  ground.  They  blame  us  for  not 
getting  paid.  We  came  here  at  the  invitation  of  the  President,  and  we  expected  to 
go  home  with  horses,  equipments,  and  guns,  so  that  our  people  would  receive  us 
gladly.  If  we  go  home  without  anything  of  this  kind,  when  we  arrive  there  the 
people  will  all  laugh  at  us. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  would  not  give  you  guns  if  I  could.  If  I  could  give  you  horses 
and  saddles,  I  would,  but  I  have  no  power  about  it;  I  caimofc  do  it,  and  so  it  is  not 
worth  while  for  me  to  encourage  you  in  any  way  to  expect  it.  About  those  men  that 
you  speak  of  as  interpreters :  In  the  first  place,  they  are  not  interpreters  at  all.  The 
best  of  them,  Todd  Randall,  when  he  came  to  interpret  for  Red  Cloud,  broke  down,  and 
Red  Cloud  had  to  get  some  one  else.  Palliday,  the  only  one  who  did  belong  to  you  as 
an  interpreter,  was  employed  by  me.  He  could  interpret.  He  is  a  good  interpreter  ; 
but  he  likes  whisky  so  well  that  he  broke  down.  Whisky  broke  him  down.  He  got 
so  drunk  that  I  could  not  see  him  for  several  days.  I  shall  pay  him  for  what  he  did 
and  see  him  home.  Richard  will  also  be  paid  ;  he  came  at  my  request;  but  those  other 
men,  who  have  deceived  you,  who  have  kept  you  from  doing  your  duty,  and  have  led 
you  into  bad  houses,  have  no  claim  for  anything,  and  they  may  be  thaukful  that  they 
are  not  driven  out  of  the  country.  How  are  you  to  trust  these  men,  when  they  go 
home,  to  tell  what  was  done  here — men  that  will  do  all  they  can  to  defeat  the  best  in 
terests  of  the  tribe  and  bring  you  into  disgrace  in  Washington  ;  what  do  you  want  of 


838 

them  when  you  get  home  ?    Now,  this  is  a  plain  talk  to  you,  but  I  may  just  as  well 
talk  of  things  as  they  are  rather  than  we  should  deceive  one  another. 

Now  I  want  to  say  a  word  to  Sitting  Bull.  I  have  heard  with  great  pleasure  of  your 
conduct  and  of  the  conduct  of  one  or  two  others  of  the  Red  Cloud  agency.  I  have 
heard  from  your  agent  and  from  the  military  officers  at  the  agency  of  the  great  serv 
ice  you  have  rendered  the  Government.  You  have  proved  yourself  to  be  a  very  brave 
and  true  man,  a  friend  to  your  own  people  and  a  friend  to  the  whites.  Your  good  con 
duct  has  been  reported  to  the  President,  and  I  am  instructed  by  him  to  give  you  a 
token  of  his  regard  in  recognition  of  your  good  services. 

LITTLE  WOUND.  My  friend,  I  want  to  speak  to  you  about  another  matter.  These 
things  I  have  heard  to-day  do  not  please  me;  but  I  shall  let  it  go  by,  and  I  want  to  say 
a  few  words  to  you.  When  I  came  here  you  gave  me  some  advice  about  the  proper 
way  when  I  went  buffalo-hunting,  and  I  have  always  done  that  way,  as  you  instructed 
me.  The  man  that  is  interpreting  for  me  brought  me  the  news  that  you  wished  to 
have  rue  sell  the  hunting-privilege.  I  told  him  that  it  would  be  better  to  wait  a  few 
years  ;  but  you  have  given  me  word,  and  I  will  take  it  back  to  my  people  and  let  them 
decide.  There  are  a  great  many  buffalo  left  in  that  country.  I  have  told  my  agent  that 
those  young  men  who  left  the  agency  to  go  hunting  did  not  do  so  because  they  wanted 
to  disobey  the  Great  Father,  but  they  wanted  to  sell  the  robes  when  there  was  no 
issue.  When  I  go  home  I  shall  tell  my  people  what  you  have  said  about  hunting  buf 
falo,  and  I  think  they  will  say  yes;  but  I  think  you  ought  to  give  more  money  to  us 
for  our  women  and  children.  That  is  all  I  have  to  say,  and  I  wish  you  to  consider 
these  things. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  have  always  heard  Avell  of  Little  Wound  when  he  went  on  his 
hunting  expeditions.  The  officers  and  soldiers  have  always  reported  that  you  were 
disposed  to  do  right ;  but  you  know  very  well  that  you  scarcely  ever  go  hunting 
that  something  does  not  occur  which  makes  trouble  between  your  people  and  the 
whites  ;  and  every  year  this  grows  more  and  more  likely  to  occur  ;  and  I  am  glad  to 
hear  you  say  that  you  will  give  up  this  right  that  is  very  dear  to  you.  I  will  present 
your  case  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  through  him  to  the  President,  and  then 
to  Congress,  asking  that  Congress  will  give  the  additional  sum  of  money  which  the 
Secretary  promised  yesterday  to  try  to  get ;  but  I  hope  that  you  will  be  able  to  distin 
guish  between  this  promise  that  we  will  try  to  get  this  money  and  the  promise  that 
we  will  give  you  themoney ;  those  are  two  different  things. 

SITTING  BULL.  I  had  said  that  I  would  go  home  without,  but  I  have  concluded  to 
say  a  few  words  to  you.  The  young  men  also  have  their  opinion  about  matters  which 
are  spoken  of  here  as  well  as  the  chiefs,  and  I  have  brought  these  young  men  here  so 
that  they  may  consider  whatever  questions  come  up.  I  have  now  been  here  more  than 
ten  days,  and  have  listened  to  all  that  has  been  said  on  both  sides.  Although  I  have 
said  nothing,  I  have  taken  into  my  ears  everything  that  has  been  said.  I  thought  I 
would  go  away  without  saying  anything  to  you,  but  I  am  going  to  say  a  few  words  be 
fore  I  go.  These  two  men  who  did  our  business  for  us  do  not  tell  you  their  own  opin 
ions,  but  of  all  the  people,  and  they  tell  you  the  opinion  of  our  delegation.  You  have 
told  them  since  they  have  been  here  of  the  wish  of  the  President,  also  the  words  of  the 
Secretary  of  the  Interior  and  yourself.  You  have  heard  one  of  the  chiefs  say  that  he 
would  agree  to  it,  and  I  am  of  the  same  opinion;  and  when  I  go  home  I  will  see  my 
people  and  get  them  to  agree  to  it.  When  the  chiefs  consider  anything  that  is  for 
their  good  and  happiness  of  their  people  in  the  future,  they  try  to  do  the  best  thing 
they  can.  I  should  have  been  very  glad  to  have  taken  the  news  home  that  we  had 
accomplished  our  business  here.  The  people  that  are  left  at  home  and  the  chiefs  are 
waiting  to  hear  what  their  chiefs  have  done  in  Washington  ;  and  when  I  go  home  I 
think  they  will  give  you  an  answer.  They  will  listen  to  everything  that  has  been 
proposed  here,  and  I  think  they  will  assent.  I  would  like  to  have  them  say  yes.  I 
thought  when  I  came  here  with  this  delegation  that  the  chiefs  would  accomplish 
something  here,  but  as  it  is  we  will  go  back  and  consider  with  our  people.  When  I 
go  out  of  the  building  to-dayjl  would  like  the  agent  to  take  me  straight  home,  without 
stopping  at  any  other  place. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  want  to  speak  to  those  young  men  about  those  half-Indian  men 
and  half-white  men.  I  am  sorry  they  are  white  at  all  who  live  among  you.  You  will 
find  now  and  then  men  living  among  you  of  that  sort  that  you  can  trust,  but  as  a 
general  thing  you  will  find  them  only  mischief-makers.  When  you  find  one  disposed 
to  be  a  mischief-maker,  ready  to  come  between  you  and  your  agent  and  between  you 
and  your  Great  Father,  you  may  be  pretty  sure  he  is  your  worst  enemy,  and  the  less 
you  submit  your  affairs  to  him  or  pay  any  attention  to  what  he  says  the  better  it  will 
be  for  you.  I  am  very  glad  to  have  met  you  here,  and  very  glad  to  have  seen  you  this 
morning.  I  hope  you  will  have  a  pleasant  journey  home,  and  that  when  you  report  to 
your  people  what  the  Great  Father  wants  done  about  these  hunting-privileges,  about 
Wyoming  and  the  Black  Hills,  they  will  see  that  he  is  your  good  father  and  wants 
to  do  the  best  thing  for  them. 

RED  CLOUD.  Six  of  my  young  men  have  remained  four  days  at  the  Washington 


839 

House,  and  one  all  the  while.  Wherever  white  men  eat  they  always  expect  to  pay  for 
it ;  the  bills  there  will  amount  to  less  than  $100.  When  I  return  home  I  would  like  to 
leave  the  railroad  at  Sidney  ;  it  is  much  nearer  home  than  Cheyenne ;  and  even  if  we 
walk  home,  we  will  make  better  time.  We  can  get  there  at  night,  and  walk  home  in 
the  night. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  will  leave  that  matter  to  Dr.  Daniels.  He  is  going  home  with  you, 
and  whatever  way  he  thinks  quickest  and  best  he  will  adopt.  About  the  board  of 
those  Indians  who  have  found  accommodations  at  the  Washington  House 

RED  CLOUD.  That  is  the  wish  of  all  my  people.  That  is  the  road  we  go  buffalo-hunt 
ing  on. 

COMMISSIONER.  I  have  no  objection  to  your  leaving  the  railroad  at  Sidney,  but  will 
leave  it  to  Dr.  Daniels.  Now  about  paying  for  the  board  of  those  Indians  who  have 
preferred  quarters  at  the  Washington  House.  The  proprietor  of  that  house  knew 
very  well  that  I  did  not  want  you  to  go  there,and  he  knew  very  well  why  I  did  not 
want  you  to  go  there,  yet  he  has  tried  from  the  day  you  came  to  get  you  there.  Some 
of  you  he  has  actually  forced  to  go;  and  others  of  you  who  did  go  there,  and  some  of 
you  who  remained  at  the  Tremont,  he  has  taken  out  himself  at  midnight  to  some  of 
the  worst  places  in  this  city.  I  do  not  think  he  will  have  the  face — and  I  give  him 
credit  for  a  great  deal  of  cheek,  but  I  do  not  think  he  will  have  the  face — to  present  me 
any  bill  for  the  board  of  Indians  this  year ;  and  he  has  got  you  to  do  it  because  he  is 
ashamed  to  present  it  himself. 

RED  CLOUD.  He  brought  a  bill  to  take  to  you.  I  showed  it  to  Dr.  Daniels,  and  he 
said  the  name  was  not  attached  to  it,  and  so  I  must  take  it  back.  I  am  not  a  relative 
of  that  man  you  speak  of;  I  have  never  spoken  any  evil  against  any  white  man.  I 
think  yoTi  are  prejudiced  against  that  man. 

COMMISSIONER.  Well,  I  am,  slightly. 

FACE  then  spoke  to  Red  Cloud  as  follows  :  I  told  you  just  how  that  matter  would  be 
when  we  commenced  it.  We  came  here  with  divided  councils;  we  have  accomplished 
nothing,  and  we  have  no  one  to  blame  but  ourselves.  The  Rod  Cloud  agent  is  a  good 
man  ;  he  is  a  brave,  true  man.  We  tried  to  break  him  down,  but  we  could  not.  He  is 
the  man  we  ought  to  take  back  with  us  and  keep.  We  have  tried  him.  I  am  a  young 
man,  and  I  have  suffered  a  great  deal  in  my  efforts  to  protect  the  agency. 


CATTLE  WEIGHED  AT  RED  CLOUD  AGENCY 

August  11,  1875,  in,  presence  of  the  commissioners. 

The  following  is  a  true  copy  of  the  record  of  the  weight  of  the  377  head  of  cattle 
weighed  at  Red  Cloud  agency  August  11,  1875,  made  on  the  spot  by  Mr.  Harris  : 


Number  of  head. 

Weight  in 
pounds. 

Number  of  head. 

Weight  in 
pounds. 

6           .           

5,885 

6  

6,  125 

5 

4,735 

6  

6,  245 

7 

6  980 

6  ... 

6,435 

,6  .       ..             

6,605 

5  

5,  520 

4                         

4,405 

6  „  

6,175 

:5 

6,215 

4  steers  .  ...  

4,545 

i6 

5  710 

3 

3,210 

6 

5  430 

4  steers 

4  180 

3                       .           

3,075 

3,570 

5 

5,470 

4            

3,895 

4 

4  085 

6 

7,160 

'5  

4,  975 

4  

4,160 

7          .„           

7,070 

6    

6,495 

6 

6,435 

5        .         .  .           

5,  620 

5 

5  390 

3  steers                       . 

3,995 

5 

5  470 

1  small  steer 

960 

5 

4  920 

2  (oueof  them  a  cow) 

1  920 

5  

5,  255 

3'                              

2,  965 

5        

5  385 

4 

4,110 

1  (a  cow) 

960 

5 

5  190 

.5  .. 

5,690 

5  .. 

5,  325 

840 


Cattle  iveighed  at  Red  Cloud  agency — Continued. 


Number  of  head. 

Weight  in 
pounds. 

Number  of  head. 

Weight  in 
pounds. 

3  .. 

3  160 

4 

4  355 

2 

2  080 

6 

6  355 

3  

3,  395 

6  (2  of  them  cows) 

6  150 

2  

1,850 

2  steers 

2  345 

4  

4,180 

6 

6  215 

4  

4,000 

5 

5  405 

4  

3,  780 

5 

5  560 

5 

5  185 

4 

4  500 

3  

3,  220 

3 

3  020 

2 

2,020 

5 

5  270 

4  

3,950 

5 

6  220 

a  

2,195 

4 

4  400 

6  

6,  390 

4 

4,040 

5  

5,850 

5 

5  865 

6  . 

5,905 

4 

4  160 

5 

5,  660 

4  steers 

4  095 

6  

7,160 

5 

4,940 

6  (2  of  tlieni  cows) 

6,000 

5 

5  100 

5,  (2  of  them  cows)  

5,345 

6  (3  of  them  cows)  

6,  020 

5  . 

5,  165 

5 

5,075 

1  cow                        . 

943$ 

Average  weight  1,053  pounds. 


LETTER  FROM  PROFESSOR  MARSH. 

YALE  COLLEGE,  NEW  HAVEN,  October  8,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  In  the  volume  of  testimony  taken  before  the  commission  I  notice,  on  page 
660, the  following:  "Red  Cloud  asked  Professor  Marsh  to  tell  his  Great  Father  that  the 
blankets  sent  to  him  were  not  fit  for  horse-blankets.  Professor  Marsh  delivered  the 
message  to  the  President,  and  did  not  inform  liim  that  it  was  not  true."  This  sentence  was 
not  in  Mr.  Smith's  statement  as  read  before  the  commission,  nor  in  the  printed  copy  he 
delivered  the  next  day.  Moreover,  it  is  untrue.  Red  Cloud  gave  me  no  such  message, 
and  I  stated  nothing  of  the  kind  to  the  President.  Mr.  Smith  has  interpolated  the 
above  sentence  into  his  statement  since  the  commission  left  Washington. 

There  were  other  misstatements  in  Mr.  Smith's  communication  as  read  before  the 
commission,  to  some  of  which,  as  the  testimony  will  show,  I  called  his  attention  at  the 
time,  and  he  promised  to  correct  them.  This  he  has  not  done.  One  of  these  is  his 
statement,  on  page  657,  that  he  had  previously  given  me  "  a  letter  of  credit  to  Red 
Cloud."  This  also  is  untrue,  as  he  never  gave  me  a  letter  of  credit,  or  any  other  letter, 
to  Red  Cloud  or  any  of  his  band. 

I  deem  these  corrections  important,  as  Commissioner  Smith  is  now  widely  distribut 
ing,  at  public  expense,  printed  copies  of  his  statement,  with  nothing  in  the  document 
to  show  that  the  above  assertions  he  has  made  are  not  true. 
Very  truly,  yours, 

O.  C.  MARSH. 

Hon.  T.  C.  FLETCHER,  Chairman. 


REPLY  OF  COMMISSIONER  SMITH. 


DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR,  OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  1).  C.,  October  13,  1875. 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  have  read  the  letter  of  Professor  Marsh  to  yourself,  under  date  of  Octo 
ber  8,  1875.  Respecting  this  communication,  I  desire  to  say  :  Professor  Marsh  is  cor 
rect  when  he  says  that  the  sentence  which  he  quotes  was  not  in  my  statement  "  as  read 


841 

before  the  commission."  But  when  he  says  it  was  "  interpolated  "  he  uses  language  in 
the  same  reckless  manner  which  has  characterized  all  his  charges  against  the  Indian 
Bureau.  The  "  statement,"  after  being  read  to  the  commission,  was  retained  by  me, 
with  the  understanding  that  it  should  be  put  into  proper  form  for  printing.  In  other 
words,  I  reserved  for  myself  exactly  the  same  privilege  which  the  Professor  reserved 
and  freely  exercised  for  himself  in  preparing  his  testimony,  viz,  to  correct  in  the  proof 
by  changes,  both  by  erasures  and  additions,  until  it  took  the  final  form  in  which  he 
desired  to  submit  it. 

Whether  the  statement  that  Professor  Marsh  carried  Red  Cloud's  lie  about  his 
blankets  to  the  President  is  untrue  or  not  is  a  question  to  be  settled  between  himself 
and  his  friend,  the  reporter  of  the  New  York  paper.  The  dispatch  which  appeared  the 
morning  after  his  interview  with  the  President  says  that  he  did  carry  that  message. 
The  account  of  that  interview  was  given  to  the  press  by  Professor  Marsh  himself,  as  he 
admitted  to  me.  Again,  as  to  the  question  of  "  interpolating"  and  "  untruth,"  if  you 
will  turn  to  page  723  of  the  testimony  you  will  find  that  Professor  Marsh  himself  put 
into  my  hands  a  slip  containing  this  newspaper  dispatch,  and  proceeded  to  cross-exam 
ine  me  thereupon  before  the  commission,  as  follows  : 

"  Q.  Is  there  anything  in  that  dispatch  that  is  absolutely  incorrect  ? 

"  A.  Yes,  sir. 

"  Q.  Will  you  please  point  it  out  ? 

"  This  may  be  true  in  form,  but  it  is  false  in  effect  and  in  the  intent  of  the  man  who 
sent  it.  According  to  this  statement,  Professor  Marsh  told  the  President  that  Red 
Cloud  said  his  blankets  were  not  fit  for  horse-blankets.  Professor  Marsh  knows  that 
what  Red  Cloud  said  on  this  matter  was  a  lie,  and  yet  he  allowed  this  statement  and 
others  of  a  similar  character  to  go  for  truth,  and  be  commented  upon  with  very  serious 
criticisms  as  if  they  were  true,  and  all  the  time  with  Professor  Marsh's  name  attached 
to  them  or  associated  with  them  as  a  sponsor  for  their  truth." 

It  would  seem  as  if  that  would  have  been  the  proper  occasion  for  Professor  Marsh 
to  have  discovered  that  the  statement  that  he  brought  Red  Cloud's  message  to  the 
President  was  not  true,  and  failing  in  calling  any  attention  to  it  at  the  time,  his  silence 
must  be  taken  for  a  confession.  And  his  after-thought,  of  trying  to  recover  himself 
from  the  wretchedly  sorry  position  into  which  his  foolish  credence  in  Red  Cloud's 
twaddle  has  placed  him,  will  hardly  save  his  case  from  the  discredit  which  must  here 
after  attach  to  it. 

Professor  Marsh  also  complains  as  if  it  were  a  very  serious  matter  that  I  did  not 
correct  a  mistake  into  which  I  had  fallen,  of  confounding  Red  Cloud  with  Spotted 
Tail.  By  reference  to  page  7*21  of  the  testimony  it  will  be  seen  that  I  admitted  this 
error  before  the  commission,  which  admission,  recorded  as  a  part  of  the  evidence,  is  a 
sufficient  correction,  and  the  only  one  which  could  be  made  after  the  question  had 
become  the  subject  of  cross-examination. 

Professor  Marsh  attaches  importance  to  the  fact  that  I  have  distributed  printed 
copies  of  my  statement  without  making  the  above  correction.  As  will  be  seen,  there 
\vas  in  fact  but  one  correction  which  required  to  be  made,  the  substitution  of  the 
name  of  one  Sioux  chief  for  that  of  another,  and  that  is  made  in  another  part  of  the 
testimony.  Any  complaint  about  wide-spread  distribution  of  my  denial  before  the 
commission  of  his  false  charges  comes  with  bad  grace  from  a  man  who  for  five 
months  has  made  free  use  of  a  willing  and  hostile  press,  and  has  spent  freely  of  his 
large  fortune,  in  printing  and  mailing,  in  every  direction,  pamphlets  containing  the 
grossest  charges  of  fraud  against  public  officers,  which  on  inquiry  have  been  found 
utterly  baseless  and  without  even  a  pretext  for  justification. 
I  am,  very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant. 

EDW.  P.  SMITH, 
Commissioner  Indian  Affairs. 

Hon.  T.  C.  FLETCHER, 

Chairman  lied  Cloud  Investigating  Commission. 

54  I  F 


INDEX. 


ALPHABETICAL  LIST  OF  WITNESSES,  ETC. 

Page. 

Alvord,  Henry  E 764 

Appendix 771 

Appleton,  Oliver  B 272 

Armor,  S.  B 600 

Arapahoes  and  Cheyeunes,  council  with 375 

Barr,  Thomas  T 118 

Bevier,  J.  D 728 

Bosler,  George  M 485 

Bosler,  John  Herman 163,  353 

Bosler,  J.  W 343 

Bostwick,  H.  C 135 

Bradley,  General  L.  P 235 

Brown,  William  H 481 

Brunot,  Felix  R 768 

Burt,  Maj.  A.  S 517 

Carey,  Judge  Joseph  M 200 

Cheyenues  and  Arapahoes,  council  with 375 

Coaklej^,  William  L 151 

Cox,  Dr.  C.  C 654 

Cowen,  B.  R 759 

Crawford,  Lieut.  Emmett 563 

Cree,  Thomas  K 769 

Dear,  J.  W , 288 

Delano,  Columbus 753 

Doddridge,  Wr.  B 193 

Dunn,  Richard 196 

I/ Ecoffee,  Jules 213 

Ellison,  James  F 521 

Eskridge,  Capt.  R.  I 566 

Farnham,  H.  E 261 

French,  Isaac  W 155 

Gibbous,  Mark 462 

Green,  Julius  M 483 

Hammond,  J.  W 195 

Hare,  Bishop  William  H 603 

Hay,  Lieut.  Leonard .. 230 

Howard,  Maj.  E.  A 492 

Hurford,  Oliver  P 128 

i/iliff,  Jolm  W f 581 

*Jauis,  Nicholas 457 

Jarvis,  Mitchell 265 

Je wett,  George  H 564 

Jordan,  Maj.  William  H 309 

Kelley,  Hiram  B 228 

Kneval,  Caleb  B 117 

Lee,  Lieut.  J.  M 316 

V^Little  Wound 300 

Lobach,  Alfred  T 283 

Mabry,  Seth 526 

Marsh,  Prof.  O.  C 1,  21 

Marshall,  George 190 

McCann,  D.  J 533 

McPhail,  Benjamin  G 234 

McStembel,  Lieut.  J.  B 453 

Mills,  Col.  Ansou 495 

Mix,  Capt.  John 510 

Mouahan,  Capt.  D 574 

Moore,  H.  W 187 

O'Brien,  N.  J 194 


844 

Page. 

Pallarday,  Leon 336 

Paul,  Lieut.  A.  C 493 

Pease,  Lieut.  W.  B , 455 

Randall,  Todd 337 

Red  Cloud '297,  307 

Reshaw,  Louis 464 

Riner,  C.  W 185 

Robinson,  William  A 115 

Roberts,  James 320 

Robertson,  Lieut.  E.  B 483 

Rockefeller,  Lieut.  Charles  M 498 

Rowland,  William 244 

Saville,  Dr.  J.  J 380,385,433 

Sheidley ,  George 550 

Sioux,  Briile",  council  with 502 

Sioux,  Ogallalla,  council  with 296 

Sitting  Bull  294 

Slavens,  J.  W.  L 592 

Smith,  E.  P 657,668 

Smith,  F.  II ; 740 

Snow,  Dr.  Sparrow  A 457 

Snyder,  D.  H 577 

Spotted  Tail „ 508 

Stanton,  Maj.  T.  II 553 

Stirk,  Richard 269 

Supplies,  examination  of 489 

Turkey  Leg 378 

Threlkeld,  E.  R 584 

Walker,  Samuel 618 

WThite,  Barclay 119 

Wilcox,  Aaron  P .  113 

Wilhite,  Presley  G 598 

Willard,  E 490 

Yates,  F.  D 331 

Yates,  William  J 127 


ORDER  OF  THE  EVIDENCE. 


Page. 
Letters  from  Professor  O.  C.  Marsh  to  the  President  of  the  United  States,  dated 

July  10, 1875,  relative  to  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  agency 1,3 

Letter  from  Hon.  C.  Delano  to  Hon.  Clinton  13.  Fisk,  asking  him  to  nomi 
nate  investigating  commission 4 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Professor  Marsh,  dated  July  1, 1875,  noti 
fying  him  of  appointment  of  commission,  and  asking  for  specific  charges 

in  writing 5 

Reply  of  Professor  Marsh,  dated  July  3,  1875 5 

Letter  of  instructions  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  original  memhers  of  coin- 

niissiou,  dated  July  4,  1875 5 

Certificate  of  Louis  Reshaw,  dated  June  1, 1875,  relative  to  issue  of  blankets 

at  Red  Cloud  agency  in  November,  1874 9 

Certificate  of  General  L  P.  Bradley,  Capt.  John  Mix,  and  Lieut.  Leonard 
Hay,  dated  May  19, 1875,  relative  to  seven  head  of  cattle  issued  at  Red 

CkTud  agency  November  11,1874 11 

Associated  Press  dispatch,  published  May  29,  1875,  relative  to  that  certifi 
cate  12 

Certificate  of  Maj.  A.  S.  Burt,  dated  June  12,  1875,  relative  to  cattle  issued 

at  Red  Cloud  agency  in  the  fall  of  1874 13 

Schedule  of  beef-cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  fourth 

quarter  of  1874 14 

Certificate  of  Lieut.  W.  L.  Carpenter,  dated  June  22, 1875,  relative  to  cat 
tle  issued  at  Red  Cloud  agency  May  13, 1875 15 

Certificate  of  Louis  Reshaw,  dated  June  5,  1875,  concerning  same 15 

Memoranda  of  beef-cattle  delivered  at  Red  Cloud  agency,  commencing 

January  1,  1875 16 

Certificate  of  Louis  Reshaw,  dated  June  5.  1875,  relative  to  stampede  of 
cattle  at  Red  Cloud  agency  in  the  summer  of  1874,  and  sale  of  such 

cattle 16 

Associated  Press  dispatch,  published  May  3,  1875,  relative  to  inspection  of 

flour  at  Cheyenne  by  Major  Long 18 

Testimony  of  Prof.  6.  C.  Marsh 21 

Memorandum  of  conversation  between  Professor  Marsh,  Bishop  Hare,  and 

Agent  Saville,  in  Washington,  June  1,  1875 96 

Letter  and  certificate  of  Lieut.  P.  II.  Ray,  relative  to  cattle  issued  at  Red 

Cloud  agency  in  April,  May,  and  June,  1874 99 

Certificate  of  Caleb  B.  Kneval,  dated  August  2,  1875,  relative  to  sample  of 

sugar  and  sugar  shipped  to  Red  Cloud  agency 110 

Testimony  of  Aaron  P.  Wilcox 113 

Testimony  of  William  A.  Robinson 115 

Testimony  of  Caleb  B.  Kneval 117 

Testimony  of  Thomas  T.  Barr 118 

Testimony  of  Barclay  White 119 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Barclay  White,  dated  August  1, 1874,  rela 
tive  to  inspection  of  Indian  supplies 119 

Letter  from  Hon  E.  P.  Smith  to  Barclay  White,  dated  September  14,  1874, 

to  inspect  flour  shipped  by  O.  P.  Hurford 119 

Statement  of  flour  inspected  as  above  directed 122 

Testimony  of  William  J.  Yates 127 

Testimony  of  Oliver  B.  Hurford 128 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCaun  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  July  28,  1874,  asking  for 

five  car-loads  of  flour 129 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  August  22,  1874,  to  fur 
nish  flour  in  88-pound  sacks 129 

Testimony  of  H.  C.  Bostwick 135 

Telegram  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  dated  December  26, 1874, 

relative  to  actual  weight  of  flour ...       141 

Letter  from  E.  P.  Vining  to  H.  C.  Bostwick,  dated  May  22,  1875,  relative 
to  box  of  blankets  at  Council  Bluffs..,  144 


846 

Page. 
Telegram  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  [September  6,  1874,]  to 

retain  sample  of  flour  to  be  forwarded 144 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  dated  September  26,  1874, 

to  furnish  certificate  relative  to  above-named  flour 144 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  J.  J.  Saville,  dated  June  26,  1875,  relative  to 

hiring  French's  warehouse 146 

Letter  of  J.  J.  Saville  to  H.  C.Bostwick,  dated  July  5,  1875,  inclosing  copy 

of  above-named  letter 147 

Testimony  of  William  L.  Coakley 151 

Testimony  of  Isaac  W.  French 155 

Testimon v  of  John  Herman  Bosler 163,  353 

Testimony  of  C.  W.  Kiner 185 

Testimony  of  H.  W.  Moore 187 

Testimony  of  George  Marshall 190 

Testimony  of  W.  B.  Doddridge 193 

Testimony  of  N.  J.  O'Brien 194 

Testimony  of  J.  W.  Hammond „_ 195 

Testimony  of  Richard  Dunn 196 

Testimony  of  Judge  Joseph  M.  Carey 200 

Testimony  of  Col.  Andrew  K.  Long 206 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  dated  September  2,  1874,  notify 
ing  him  of  appointment  of  A.  K.  Long  as  inspector 208 

Letter  from  A.  K.  Long  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  dated  September  7,  1875,  asking 

for  samples  of  flour 208 

Telegram  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  A.  K.  Long,  dated  October  2,  relative 

to  inspection 208 

Telegram  from  H.  B.  Clum  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  dated  October  15, 1874,  to  have 

all  flour  inspected 208 

Letter  from  S.  H.  Palmer  to  A.  K.  Long,  dated  October  20,  1874,  relative 

to  flour  ready  for  inspection 209 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  A.  K.  Long,  dated  January  14,  1875,  rel 
ative  to  bacon  for  Red  Cloud  agency 209 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  V.  S.  Pollard,  dated  April  8,  1875,  accept 
ing  proposition  for  supply  of  corn 209 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  A.  K.  Long,  dated  June  11,  1875,  advisiug 

him  that  W.  L.  Coakley  would  inspect  supplies 209 

Testimony  of  Jules  Ecoffee , 213 

Testimony  of  Hiram  B.  Kelley 228 

Testimony  of,  Lieut.  Leonard  Hay 230 

Testimony  of  Dr.  Benjamin  G.  McPhail 234 

Testimony  of  General  L.  P.  Bradley 235 

Testimony  of  William  Rowland 244 

Testimony  of  H.  E.  Farnharn 261 

Testimony  of  Mitchell  Jarvis 265 

Testimony  of  Richard  Stirk 269 

Testimony  of  Oliver  B.  Appleton 272 

Testimony  of  Benjamin  Tibbets 277 

Testimony  of  Alfred  T.  Lobach 283 

Testimony  of  J.  W.  Dear 288 

Talk  with  Sitting  Bull 294 

Council  with  the  Ogallalla  Sioux 296 

Governor  Fletcher's  speech  296 

Red  Cloud's  speech 297 

Speech  of  Little  Wound 300 

Informal  talk  with  the  Ogallallas 302 

Another  talk  with  Red  Cloud 307 

Testimony  of  Maj.  William  H.  Jordan 309 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  J.  M.  Lee 316 

Testimony  of  James  Roberts 320 

Testimony  of  F.  D.  Yates 331 

Testimony  of  Leon  Pallarday 336 

Testimony  of  Todd  Randall 337 

Testimony  of  J.  W.  Bosler 343 

Certificate  of  James  F.  Ellison,  dated  July  27,  1875,  relative  to  cattle  sold 

J.  W.  Bosler 343 

Certificate  of  Seth  Mabry,  dated  July  26,  1875,  relative  to  cattle  sold  J.  W. 

Bosler 344 

Certificate  of  George  W.  Littlefield,  dated  July  22,  1875,  relative  to  cattle 

sold  J.  W.  Bosler  .                                                                 344 


847 

Page. 

Affidavits  of  George  Sheidley  and  \V.  C.  Irvine,  dated  July  26, 1875,  relative 

to  cattle  sold  J.  VV.  Hosier 345 

Affidavit  of  James  F.  Ellison,  dated  July  30,  1875,  relative  to  above-named 

cattle 345 

Affidavit  of  James  F.  Ellison,  dated  July  31,  1875,  relative  to  cattle  deliv 
ered  by  William  M.  Hurst  to  J.  W.  Hosier,  in  September,  1874 345 

Certificate  of  H.  V.  Reddington,  dated  July  28,  1875,  relative  to  cattle 

turned  over  to  J.  W.  Hosier  in  April  and  May,  1875 345 

Certificate  of  Irvine  &  Lawrence,  dated  July  25,  1875,  relative  to  cattle 
turned  over  to  J.  W.  Hosier  in  April  and  May,  1875 346 

Certificate  of  William  Guitermau,  dated  July  27,  1875,  relative  to  cattle 
sold  J.  W.  Hosier  May  26,  1875 346 

Affidavit  of  C.  McCarty,  dated  July  27,  1875,  relative  to  quality  of  J.  W. 

Hosier's  cattle 347 

Certificate  of  James  Callahan  and  Philip  Musbied,  relative  to  quality  and 

weight  of  J.  W.  Hosier's  cattle 347 

Certificate  of  Dr.  S.  A.  Snow,  dated  August  4,  1875,  relative  to  cattle 
received  and  issued  at  Red  Cloud  agency  May  14,  1875 347 

Affidavit  of  B.  F.  Walters,  dated  June  29,  1875,  relative  to  hides  of  cattle 

at  Red  Cloud  agency 348 

Certificate  of  F.  D.  Yates,  dated  August  6,  1875,  relative  to  cattle  issued  at 

Red  Cloud  agency,  and  hides  taken  from  them 348 

Certificate  of  J.  W.  Dear,  dated  August  4,  1875,  relative  to  same  subject- .       349 

Abstract  of  foregoing  statements 349 

Letter  from  H.  Kountz  to  whom  it  may  concern,  dated  July  28,  1875,  certi 
fying  to  good  character  of  S.  Mabry,  G.  W.  Littlefield,  George  Sheidley, 
and  James  Ellison 350 

Letter  from  J.  D.  Bevier  to  J.  W.  Hosier,  dated  July  31,  1875,  relative  to 

good  size,  condition,  and  quality  of  J.  W.  Hosier's  cattle 351 

Abstract  showing  number  and  weights  of  beef-cattle  delivered  under  the 
Foreman  contract  of  1874-'75  at  Yankton  agency 357 

Same  at  Upper  Missouri  agency 357 

Same  at  Standing  Rock  agency 357 

Same  at  Cheyenne  River  agency 358 

Same  at  Spotted  Tail  agency. .T 358 

Same  at  Red  Cloud  agency 358 

Recapitulation  of  above-named  abstracts 359 

Council  with  Arapahoes  and  Cheyenues 375 

Another  talk  with  Sitting  Bull 377 

Talk  with  Turkey  Leg 378 

Dr.  Saville's  answer  to  Professor  Marsh's  charges 380 

Testimony  of  Dr.  J,  J.  Saville 385 

Dr.  Saville's  documentary  evidence  : 

Letter  from  S.  R.  Hosmer  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  September  7, 1873,  rel 
ative  to  alleged  overissue  of  rations  at  Red  Cloud  agency 433 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  September  27,  1873,  in 

reply  to  the  above-named  letter 434 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  December  29, 1873,  rel 
ative  to  number  of  Indians  receiving  rations  at  Red  Cloud  agency 435 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  December  29, 1873, 

giving  report  of  council  relative  to  counting  the  Indians 436 

Red  Cloud's  speech 436 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  February  2,  1874,  rel 
ative  to  arming  certain  Indians  to  compel  the  rest  to  be  counted 437 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  February  14, 1874,  rel 
ative  to  affairs  at  the  agency  and  opposition  of  northern  Indians 437 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  March  24,  1874,  re 
porting  the  count  nearly  completed 438 

Telegram  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  Oc 
tober  19,  1874,  requesting  order  to  move  the  Indians  nearer  the  agency 
to  be  coun  ted 439 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  same  date,  relative  to  same 

subject 439 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Major  Mears,  dated  November  3,  1874,  relative 

to  troops  to  protect  the  agency 439 

Reply  of  commanding  officer  of  Camp  Robinson,  dated  November  5,  1874      440 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  commanding  officer  of  Camp  Robinson,  same 
date,  giving  fighting  strength  of  the  Indians 440 


848 

Page. 
Letter  from  commanding  officer  of  Camp  Kobinson  to  J.  J.  Saville,  same 

date,  relative  to  troops  to  meet  the  Indians 440 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  November  13,  1874, 

relative  to  number  of  Indians  at  the  agency  by  actual  count 440 

Telegram  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  dated  Oc 
tober  24,  1874,  reporting  that  Indians  had  cut  the  flag-staff 441 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  same  date,  giving  further 

details  on  same  subject 441 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  January  29, 1874,  trans 
mitting  statement  of  beef-cattle  lost  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the 

fourth  quarter  of  1873 442 

Above-named  statement 443 

Letter  from  J. . I.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  December  21,1874, 
transmitting  affidavits  relative  to  the  stampede  of  cattle  September  7, 

1874 443 

Sworn  statement  of  Sheridan  McBratney,  dated  October  2(5,  1874,  on  same 

subject '. 443 

Affidavit  of  Clemente  Bernard,  same  date,  on  same  subject 444 

Statement  of  cattle  lost  at  Red  Cloud  agency  during  the  fourth  quarter  of 

1874 445 

Affidavit  of  Sheridan  McBratuey,  dated  October  26, 1874,  relative  to  above- 
named  statement 445 

Affidavits  of  S.  McBratuey  and  C.  Bernard,  dated  November  10, 1874,  rela 
tive  to  same  subject 445 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  relative  to  same  subject 445 

Monthly  report  for  October,  1873 446 

Monthly  report  for  November,  1873 447 

Monthly  report  for  Tecjinber,  1873 447 

Monthly  report  for  January,  1874 448 

Annual  report  for  1874   449 

Special  report — arrival  of  Professor  Marsh 451 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  J.  McB.  Stembel 453 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  W.  B.  Pease 455 

Testimony  of  Dr.  Sparrow  A.  Snow 457 

Testimony  of  Nicholas  Janis 457 

Testimony  of  Mark  Gibbons 462 

Testimony  of  Louis  Reshaw 464 

Testimony  of  William  H.  Brown 481 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  E.  B.  Robertson 483 

Testimony  of  Julias  M.  Green 483 

Testimony  of  George  M.  Bosler „  485 

Examination  of  supplies  at  Spotted  Tail  agency 489 

Testimony  of  E.  Willard 490 

Testimony  of  Major  E.  A.  Howard 492 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  A.  C.  Paul 493 

Testimony  of  Col.  Anson  Mills 495 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  Charles  M.  Rockefeller 498 

Council  with  the  Bruld  Sioux 502 

Talk  with  Spotted  Tail 508 

Testimony  of  Capt.  John  Mix , 510 

Testimony  of  Maj.  A.  S.  Burt 517 

Testimony  of  James  F.  Ellison 521 

Testimony  of  Seth  Mabry 526 

Testimony  of  D.  J.  McCaun 533 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  August  1, 1874,  relative 

to  speedy  shipment  of  flour , 539 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  November  1, 1874,  rela 
tive  to  draft  and  rejected  flour 540 

Form  of  bill  of  lading 544 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  August  10, 1874,  urging 

shipment  of  flour 548 

Letters  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  August  14,  20, 26,  and 

27, 1874,  relative  to  flour 549 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCann  to  O.  P.  Hurford,  dated  October  23,  1874,  rela 
tive  to  draft  and  flour 550 

Testimony  of  George  Sheidley 550 

Testimony  of  Maj.  T.  H.  Stanton 553 

Testimony  of  John  F.  Coad 558 

Testimony  of  George  H.  Jewett 564 

Testimony  of  Capt.  R.  I.  Eskridge 566 


849 

Page. 

Testimony  of  Lieut.  Emmet  Crawford 568 

Testimony  of  Capt.  D.  Monahan 574 

Testimony  of  D.  H.  Snider 577 

Testimony  of  John  W.  Iliff 581 

Testimony  of  E,  R.  Threlkeld 584 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  E.  R.  Threlkeld,  dated  September  5, 1874,  relative 

to  inspection  of  flour  by  sample,  under  contract  with  J.  W.  L.  Slav.ens..       589 
Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  E.  R.  Threlkeld,  dated  August  1, 1874, 

relative  to  inspection  of  supplies 589 

Letter  from  E.  R.  Threlkeld  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  November  25, 1874, 

relative  to  inspection  of  pork  under  Mr.  Slavens's  contract 592 

Letter  from  E.  R.  Threlkeld  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  November  27, 1874, 

giving  further  details  on  same  subject 592 

Testimony  of  J.  W.  L.  Slavens 592 

Letter  from  J.  W.  L.  Slavens  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  January  11, 1875, 

oifering  to  deliver  mess-pork  or  bacon  in  lieu  of  prime  mess-pork 594 

Testimony  of  Presley  G.  Wilhite 598 

Testimony  of  S.  B.  Armor 600 

Testimony  of  Bishop  William  H.  Hare 603 

Testimony  of  Samuel  Walker 618 

Certificate  of  J.  W.  Daniels  to  J.J.  Saville,  giving  number  of  teams  em 
ployed  in  removal  of  Red  Cloud  agency  in  1873 627 

Certificate  of  J.  J.  Saville  to  D.  J.  McCauu,  on  same  subject 628 

Testimony  of  Dr.  C.  C.  Cox 654 

Letter  from  Dr.  C.  C.  Cox  to  Hon.  Mr.  Coweu,  dated  October  8,  1874,  rela 
tive  to  alleged  irregularities  and  frauds  at  Red  Cloud  agency 656 

Statement  of  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  in  reply  to  Professor  Marsh's  charges 657 

Letter  from  D.  J.  McCaun  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  dated  Decem 
ber  3, 1873,  proposing  settlement  relative  to  difference  of  dibtance  from 

Cheyenne  to  Red  Cloud  agency 663 

Testimony  of  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith 668 

Table  of  statistics,  showing  population,  &c.,  by  tribes  of  Sioux  Indians 

belonging  to  reservations  in  Nebraska  and  Dakota 698 

Circular  from  Indian  Office  to  agents,  dated  October  16,  1874,  prohibiting 

the  incurring  of  liabilities  except  in  accordance  with  existing  law 703 

Contract  with  Bishop  William  H.  Hare,  dated  December  25,  1874,  relative 

to  schools  at  Missouri  River  agencies 712 

Contract  with  Bishop  William  H.  Hare,  dated  March  29,  1875,  relative  to 

schools  at  Spotted  Tail  and  Red  Cloud  agencies 714 

Statement  of  delivery  and  inspection  of  pork  under  contract  of  J.  W.  L. 

Slavenp,  of  date  July  11,  1874 771 

Testimony  of  Dr.  J.  D.  Bevier 728 

Letter  from  Dr.  J.  D.  Bevier  to  Hon.  Thomas  C.  Fletcher,  dated  September 

5, 1875,  in  reply  to  request  to  appear  before  investigating  commission..       728 

Testimony  of  F.  H.  Smith 740 

Letter  of  resignation  from  members  of  the  old  Board  of  Indian  Commis 
sioners,  dated  May  27, 1874 741 

Associated  Press  dispatch,  dated  February  20, 1874,  relative  to  meeting  of 

the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 743 

Testimony  of  Hon.  Col umbus  Delano 753 

Testimony  of  Hon.  B.  R.  Cowen 759 

Indorsement  of  B.  R.  Cowen,  dated  October  28,  1873,  approving  claim  of 

A.  H.  Wilder  for  $80,685.56 759 

Letter  from  F.  H.  Smith  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  dated  August  5, 
1875,  returning  without  approval  of  executive  committee  of  Board  of 

Indian  Commissioners,  claim  of  D.  J.  McCann  for  $11,368 761 

Indorsement  by  Hon.  B.  R.  Cowen,  dated  August  5,  1875,  referring  the 

above  to  the  Second  Comptroller  for  his  opinion 762 

Reply  of  J.  M.  Brodhead,  dated  August  6, 1875,  with  opinion  that  said 

claim  can  be  allowed 762 

Indorsement  by  Hon.  B.  R.  Cowen.  dated  August  6,  1875,  allowing  said 

claim  in  accordance  with  said  opinion 762 

Decision  of  J.  M.  Brodhead  in  the  matter  of  Neal  &  Murphy,  dated  De 
cember  28, 1874,on  which  the  above-named  action  is  based 762 

Statement  of  Henry  E.  Al vord,  dated  September  11, 1875 764 

Letter  from  Hon.  Felix  R.  Brunot  to  Hon.  Thomas  C.  Fletcher,  dated  September 
11, 1875,  declining  invitation  to  visit  Washington  to  testify  before  the  in 
vestigating  commission 768 

Letter  from  Thomas  R.  Cree  to  Hon.  Thomas  C.  Fletcher,  dated  September  16, 

1875,  containing  a  similar  declination 769 

55  I  F 


850 

APPENDIX. 

Page. 
Documents  relative  to  beef: 

Contract  with  J.  K.  Foreman,  dated  July  14, 1874,  for  supply  of  beef  to  In 
dian  agencies 771 

Correspondence  relative  to  additional  supply  imder  the  above-named  con 
tract — 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  W.  A.  Paxton,  dated  March  13, 1875,  giving 
notice  to  furnish  additional  supply 773 

Reply  of  W.  A.  Paxton,  same  date,  refusing  so  to  do,  and  giving  reasons..       773 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  W.  A.  Paxton,  dated  March  15, 1875, 

asking  for  new  proposition  in  the  premises 774 

Reply  of  W.  A.  Paxton,  same  date,  making  proposition ,.       774 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  same  date, 
submitting  above-named  correspondence,  and  asking  its  reference  to  the 
Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  for  its  views 774 

Reply  of  Hon.  C.  Delano,  dated  March  17,  1875,  inclosing  recommendation 
from  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners,  and  authorizing  contract  for 
additional  supply 775 

Letter  from   F.  H.  Smith  to  Hon.  C.  Delano,  containing  above-named 

recommendation 775 

Contract  with  W.  A.  Paxton  for  the  additional  supply,  dated  March  17, 

1875 .:..! .;       775 

Contract  with  Seth  Mabry,  dated  May  7, 1875,  for  supply  of  beef  to  Indian 

agencies 777 

Contract  with  J.  W.  L.  Slavens  for  pork  and  flour  for  Indian  agencies 778 

Correspondence  concerning  flour : 

Letter  from  James  Irwin  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  May  5,  1874,  relative 
to  surplus  of  flour,  &c 780 

Telegram  from  James  Irwin  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  July  7,  1874,  ask 
ing  instructions  in  regard  to  beef,  flour,  and  transportation 780 

Telegram  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  James  Irwin,  asking  price  of  XX  flour 

at  Brian 781 

Reply  of  James  Irwin,  dated  July  28,  1875.  giving  prices 781 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  James  Irwin,  dated  August  1,  1874,  rela 
tive  to  arrangements  made  with  J.  H.  Martin  to  furnish  flour 781 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  J.  H.  Martin,  dated  August  1,  1874,  rela 
tive  to  same 781 

Telegram  from  James  Irwin  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  September  8,  1874, 

asking  that  flour  be  sent  immediately  to  Shoshone  agency 782 

Letter  from  James  Irwin  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  September  14,  1874, 
reporting  details  relative  to  flour  and  other  supplies  for  the  Shoshone 
and  Bannack  agency 782 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  dated 
August  4,  1874,  relative  to  requesting  Secretary  of  War  to  authorize 
Army  officers  to  inspect  Indian  supplies 783 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  Captain  A.  K.  Long,  dated  September  2,  1874, 

relative  to  the  latter's  appointment  as  inspector  of  flour  at  Cheyenne..       783 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Barclay  White,  dated  September  14,  1874, 

to  inspect  flour  to  be  delivered  by  O.  P.  Hurford 783 

Telegram  from  Andrew  K.  Long  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  October  2, 
1874,  relative  to  flour  being  shipped  through  Cheyenne,  by  J.  H.  Martin, 
without  inspection • 784 

Telegram  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Captain  A.  K.  Long,  dated  October  3, 

1874,  in  reply  to  the  above 784 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Barclay  White,  dated  October  10,  1874, 

authorizing  inspection  of  Martin's  flour  at  Omaha 784 

Letter  from  Barclay  White  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  July  19,  1875,  rela 
tive  to  inspection  of  flour  for  Red  Cloud  agency 784 

Transportation : 

Contract  with  D.  J.  McCann,  dated  July  8, 1874,  for  transportation  of  sup 
plies  and  goods  to  Indian  agencies 785 

Efforts  to  ascertain  the  distance  to  Red  Cloud  agency 786 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  L.  S.  Hayden,  dated  July  28,  1874,  to  pur 
chase  an  odometer 786 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  S.  H.  Palmer,  same  date,  relative  to  meas 
urement  by  the  odometer 786 

Letter  from  S.  H.  Palmer  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  August  28,  1874,  re 
porting  progress  with  odometer 787 


851 

Page. 
Letter  from  S.  H.  Palmer  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  September  11,  1874, 

reporting  odometer  out  of  order 787 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  November  9,  1874, 

transmitting  certificate  of  distance  as  indicated  by  odometer 787 

The  certificate,  same  date 787 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  dated  No 
vember  20,  1874,  suggesting  measurement  of  the  distance  under  the 

auspices  of  the  War  Department 788 

Letter  from  Hon.  William  W.  Belknap  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 

•  dated  January  6,  1875,  relative  to  a  guide  over  the  route 788 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  D.  J.  McCann,  dated  January  11,  1875,  request 
ing  him  to  furnish  a  guide 788 

Interruption  of  the  survey — severity  of  the  weather  : 

Letter  from  Hon.  William  W.  Belknap  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior, 
dated  January  19,  1875,  transmitting  telegram  stating  that  the  officer 

making  the  measurement  had  been  driven  in 789 

The  telegram  dated  January  12,  1875 789 

Letter  from  William  W.  Belknap  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  dated 
February  6,  1875,  inclosing  copy  of  Lieutenant  Winters's  report,  an 
nouncing  abandonment  of  measurement 789 

Lieutenant  WTinters's  report,  dated  January  16,  1875 790 

Indorsement  by  General  E.  O.  C.  Ord,  on  above-named  report,  dated  Jan- 
nary  25,1875 790 

Evidence  as  to  distance  : 

Affidavit  of  Richard  Dunn  and  others 790 

Affidavit  of  J.  Vigil  and  J.  N.  Basquez 791 

The  Appleton  building  contract 792 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  August  17,  1874,  in 
closing  proposition  of  A.  R.  Appleton  to  saw  lumber  and  complete  build 
ings  at  Red  Cloud  agency 792 

Appleton's  proposition 793 

Letter  from  H.  R.  Clum  to  J.  J.  Saville,  dated  August  25,  1874,  author 
izing  contract  according  to  above-named  proposition 793 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  inclosing  contract  above  re 
ferred  to 793 

The  contract,  dated  September  30,  1874 794 

Letter  from  A.  R.  Appleton  to  Dr.  J.  D.  Bevier,  dated  October  5,  1875,  rel 
ative  to  contract 795 

Letter  from  J.  D.  Bevier  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  October  21, 1874,  rela 
tive  to  same 795 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  Bishop  William  H.  Hare,  dated  October 

22,  1874,  requesting  his  views  on  above-named  contract 796 

Reply  of  Bishop  Hare,  dated  October  26,  1874 797 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  J.  J.  Saville,  dated  October  29,  1874,  dis 
approving  the  contract 797 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  November  12,  1874, 
inclosing  Mr.  Appleton's  statement  of  the  work  done,  and  requesting  in 
structions 797 

Appleton's  statement,  dated  November  10, 1874 798 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  J.  J.  Saville,  dated  December  21,  1874, 

relative  to  above-named  statement 798 

Letter  from  J.  J.  Saville  to  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith,  dated  January  4,  1875,  ex 
plaining  Appleton's  statement 799 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  J.  J.  Saville,  dated  March  10,  1875,  rela 
tive  to  payment  for  above-named  work 799 

The  Samuel  Walker  report : 

Letter  from  Hon.  C.  Delano  to  Hon.  Felix  R.  Brunot,  dated  February  4, 

1875,  relative  to  above-named  report 799 

Reply  to  the  above 800 

Letter  from  Thomas  K.  Cree  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  inclosing  copy 

of  the  report 800 

The  report 801 

The  Bishop  Hare  report  on  the  administration  of  affairs  at  Red  Cloud  and  Whet 
stone  agencies 807 

Inspector  Bevier's  report  on  same  subject 819 

Agent  Saville's  reply  to  Walker's  report 822 

Agent  Howard's  reply  to  Walker's  report 824 

Kemble  and  Alvord's  report >  -       826 


852 

Page. 

QOQ 

Additional  notes  to  same °g? 

Inspector  Daniels's  report °*g 

Talk  with  Red  Cloud  in  Washington,  May  28,  1875 .-... «^ 

Talk  with  Little  Wound  and  Sitting  Bull  in  Washington,  June  5,  1875 837 

Cattle  weighed  at  Red  Cloud  agency  August  11, 1875 ......... . . . . . ... ..       &M 

Letter  from  Professor  Marsh  to  Hon.  T.  C.  Fletcher,  dated  October  8,  1875,  rela 
tive  to  Commissioner  Smith's  testimony -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 

Letter  from  Hon.  E.  P.  Smith  to  same,  dated  October  13,  1875,  m  reply  to  Pro 
fessor  Marsh's  statements 


ERRATA. 


Page  28  line  8.  for  "  Professor  Harris's  report,"  read  "  Bishop  Hare's  report." 
Page  97,  line  37,  for  "  according  to  remembrance,"  read  "according  to  my  remem 

rpa°  e'231,  line  46,  for  "  out  of  seven,"  read  "  out  of  the  seven." 
Page  232,  line  22,  for  "  small,"  read  "  smaller." 
Page  345,  line  2,  for  "  Irwin,"  read  «  Irvine." 
Page  364,  line  8  from  bottom,  for  "  assigned,"  read  "  nlled." 
Page  453,  line  31,  for  "  1875,"  read  "  1874." 
Page  517,  line  19,  for  "  fix  my  mind,"  read  "  fix  it  in  my  mind.' 
Page  533,  last  line  but  one  from  bottom,  for  u  spoke,"  read  "  inch." 
Page  533,  last  line  from  bottom,  omit  the  word  "  and,"  before  "  double-trees." 
Page  534,  line  12,  for  "  growing,"  read  "  grade." 
Pale  540  lines  II  and  13,  for  »  20,000,"  read  •'  200,000." 

Page  541  line  13  from  bottom,  for  "  I  get  it  for  $1.45,"  read  "I  get  4o  cents  for  it." 
Page  547,  line  22,  for  "  Lovejoy,"  read  "E.  Clay." 
Page  578,  line  1,  omit  the  word  "  calves." 
Pa^e  582,  line  32,  for  "  Littlefield,"  read  "Little field's." 
Page  587,  line  32,  for  "I  found  it,"  read  "if  I  found  it." 
Pa »e  735,  line  16,  for  "  November,"  read  "  October." 


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